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Milton
02-23-2016, 05:14 PM
Im sorry to say from starting off with an open mind my experience of talking to Muslims is one of intolerance, and barely disguised hatred of non Muslims. This very forum has already warned me that their is no tolerance of criticising the Muslim faith. And its obvious Muslims have a long list of subjects they refuse to discuss with non Muslims.

I don't know how it will be possible to post anything worthwhile on any Muslim forum. There is simply no conception of free speech.
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keiv
02-23-2016, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Milton
Im sorry to say from starting off with an open mind my experience of talking to Muslims is one of intolerance, and barely disguised hatred of non Muslims. This very forum has already warned me that their is no tolerance of criticising the Muslim faith. And its obvious Muslims have a long list of subjects they refuse to discuss with non Muslims.

I don't know how it will be possible to post anything worthwhile on any Muslim forum. There is simply no conception of free speech.
You come here with an "open mind" yet, your posts say otherwise. You're no different than most atheists out there who try to champion the idea of tolerance and letting people beleive whatever they want but, insist on talking down to said people if their beleifs don't match yours. Look at the other atheists on this site who've been here for 5-10 years continually bringing up the same garbage they have since day 1. Your intention of coming here was never to learn.

Don't feel like posting here anymore? Good riddance!
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Eric H
02-23-2016, 06:11 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Milton;

Im sorry to say from starting off with an open mind my experience of talking to Muslims is one of intolerance, and barely disguised hatred of non Muslims. This very forum has already warned me that their is no tolerance of criticising the Muslim faith. And its obvious Muslims have a long list of subjects they refuse to discuss with non Muslims.
I am a Catholic, and have been posting here for ten years now, this is my favourite forum, I post on Catholic, Christian and atheist forums too. There are atheists and others who have been posting here for a long time too.

I don't know how it will be possible to post anything worthwhile on any Muslim forum. There is simply no conception of free speech.
Freedom of speech troubles me, because it seems to lead to extremes. I am not a Muslim, but I found the cartoons of the prophet pbuh, highly offensive. If someone had drawn those same kind of cartoons about my mother, I would be offended. Yet freedom of speech seems to find them acceptable, after the Charlie Hebdo bombing, world leaders stood in solidarity behind the cartoonists, it spoke volumes that their concept of freedom of expression was being threatened.

I am against the bombings totally, but I am also totally against the satire that is deeply offensive.

The call to coexist means we have to become more tolerant ourselves, we have to make the effort, then hopefully others will respond in kind.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric
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Serinity
02-23-2016, 07:19 PM
While I do like the idea etc.

I find myself conflicting in Islam. On 1 side, it is peaceful, and tolerant, and on the other, people make it seem rigid, and cult-like.

I do know, tho, many take verses out according to what 'they' want to say, not what Allah is actually saying..
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Eric H
02-23-2016, 09:43 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Milton;

My point proven perfectly.
That's a good reply if you are seeking to win an argument, but this thread is about coexistence. This is a huge challenge for mankind, how do we get on with people who have different beliefs than ours? There are ways you could try and make up with our friend keiv.

I think it is always better to strive for peace, but first we have to offer some kind of peace.

In the spirit of praying for greater interfaith friendships

Eric
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Serinity
02-23-2016, 10:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Milton;



That's a good reply if you are seeking to win an argument, but this thread is about coexistence. This is a huge challenge for mankind, how do we get on with people who have different beliefs than ours? There are ways you could try and make up with our friend keiv.

I think it is always better to strive for peace, but first we have to offer some kind of peace.

In the spirit of praying for greater interfaith friendships

Eric
So give and receive, kinda?
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Eric H
02-23-2016, 10:25 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Serinity;

So give and receive, kinda?
I do believe we have to keep giving, we may not get our rewards in this lifetime though. We strive to put God first, our neighbour second, and ourselves last.

In the spirit of praying for coexistence

Eric
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Search
02-23-2016, 11:41 PM
:bism:

Hi, Milton, welcome to the board!


Hmm, hey, you can't have met many Muslims IRL or online if you honestly feel that Muslims have some ill-conceived hatred of non-Muslims.

For the most part, I'd say I'm a straight-shooter; and so, if I have a problem with anyone or anything, I don't disguise or pretend. Life's too short for pretenses of that sort, methinks. And I happen to get along great Alhamdhullilah (thanks, praise, and credit to Allah) with non-Muslims IRL and online. So, I don't know what's happened here with you specifically on IB and so don't know how to advise you.

Since I don't know the particulars of what occurred here, all I can tell you is that criticism is all fine and dandy, I think. But you also have to realize that at the end of the computer screen you're talking to real people and not some robots; so, if you phrase your words in a way that's offensive or potentially something that goes off ill-willed or whatever, you'll obviously have a reaction, and that reaction (depending on the individual) might not be a good one and lead to posts that are in turn offensive or retaliatory or whatever. At the end of the day, that's Internet for you and everyone else (so, if you're not putting too fine a point on this: we're all in the same boat).

I think I'm very open-minded and so don't mind discussing anything with non-Muslims, or at least Alhamdhullilah (thanks, praise, and credit to Allah) I haven't encountered anything that would make me shy away from a topic. Plus, I believe in taking the bull by its horns.

As far as free speech is concerned in terms of IB, I'll agree that this is a well-moderated Forum; I know because I have been moderated in the past too, and that's not such a bad thing if you choose to adopt a positive perspective because this Forum is actually a really feel-good place. I know because I have been on other places on the Internet, and there are so many (sighs) trolls that you're like "Ohhhh my God!" So, I'd say give IB a chance! It's not like you're going to lose anything, and it could be that you'll learn to enjoy yourself here! So, I'd like to say simply that time's a-wastin' and so buck up and start postin'!

Best wishes,


format_quote Originally Posted by Milton
Im sorry to say from starting off with an open mind my experience of talking to Muslims is one of intolerance, and barely disguised hatred of non Muslims. This very forum has already warned me that their is no tolerance of criticising the Muslim faith. And its obvious Muslims have a long list of subjects they refuse to discuss with non Muslims.

I don't know how it will be possible to post anything worthwhile on any Muslim forum. There is simply no conception of free speech.
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Muhammad
02-24-2016, 12:03 AM
Greetings Milton,

format_quote Originally Posted by Milton
This very forum has already warned me that their is no tolerance of criticising the Muslim faith. And its obvious Muslims have a long list of subjects they refuse to discuss with non Muslims.
You are mistaken here. We have received numerous questions and criticisms from people like yourself over the years, as can be seen by scrolling through the pages of this section. What we don't accept, as specifically stated earlier, is attacks against Islam (rule #16 in our FAQ). We are willing to discuss things so long as the questioner is genuinely interested in learning. But if someone is only interested in dropping vicious statements here and there or validating preconceived (wrong) conclusions, this is the wrong place for that.
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Serinity
02-24-2016, 05:22 AM
Islam does not say "don't think and believe" rather it says "think and believe"
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Milton
02-24-2016, 04:44 PM
I apologise if I have been too abrasive.


I have to now point out that all free thinking has to be without fear of sanction, so in Islam saying "think and beleive" is not really true, those who have left Islam and talk about it are under constant fear of attack, even murder, some of their own families have disowned them.

If you are schooled in Islam from day one, and told you will face severe punishment if you leave the releigion then free thought is impossible im afraid.
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Serinity
02-24-2016, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Milton
I apologise if I have been too abrasive.


I have to now point out that all free thinking has to be without fear of sanction, so in Islam saying "think and beleive" is not really true, those who have left Islam and talk about it are under constant fear of attack, even murder, some of their own families have disowned them.

If you are schooled in Islam from day one, and told you will face severe punishment if you leave the releigion then free thought is impossible im afraid.
Bring on your criticisms, Islam does not forbid fruitful debates. :)

In a reasonable manner tho, no offensive language.

Allah says many times in the Quran "Then won't you reason?" etc. Use reason, and your mind, and ask Allah for help, and you will reach Islam.

Blind belief is shunned upon.
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M.I.A.
02-24-2016, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Milton
Im sorry to say from starting off with an open mind my experience of talking to Muslims is one of intolerance, and barely disguised hatred of non Muslims. This very forum has already warned me that their is no tolerance of criticising the Muslim faith. And its obvious Muslims have a long list of subjects they refuse to discuss with non Muslims.

I don't know how it will be possible to post anything worthwhile on any Muslim forum. There is simply no conception of free speech.
Take a look at the history books, the world has never been about tolerance.

Even peaceful revolutions are based on intolerance.

Don't know if it's about what you do to get there or what you do when you get there.

...probably what you do for others lol.
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Mustafa16
02-24-2016, 07:54 PM
Muslims, Christians, Jews, Sabians, Zoroastrians, and Hindus have lived peacefully together for centuries, until colonialism and the decay of the Muslim world....while Muslims followed their true values, they tolerated other religions, with one exception. The non muslims had to pay the jizyah, but this tax was light, and in exchange, they did not have to do compulsory military service......at times no jizyah was imposed, like in India.....even atheists were tolerated in the golden age of Islam, as there was even ibn al rawandi who was a mutazilate who became an atheist and was never punished.....in my opinion, we are allowed to be friends with non Muslims provided that they're not our closest friends since they may lead us astray bit by bit over time with bad advice that is contrary to the deen.....
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M.I.A.
02-24-2016, 08:06 PM
..free Kashmir?

Allow a little space for that previous ethic to exist.


Or let it hold you back until a time when Allah swt sees fit.
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Futuwwa
02-24-2016, 10:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Milton
I have to now point out that all free thinking has to be without fear of sanction, so in Islam saying "think and beleive" is not really true, those who have left Islam and talk about it are under constant fear of attack, even murder, some of their own families have disowned them.
And that is the fault of this forum how exactly?
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Milton
02-24-2016, 11:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa
And that is the fault of this forum how exactly?
Where did I say it was anything to do with this forum ?
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Futuwwa
02-25-2016, 08:20 PM
The original post of this thread.
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Pygoscelis
02-29-2016, 08:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Milton
Im sorry to say from starting off with an open mind my experience of talking to Muslims is one of intolerance, and barely disguised hatred of non Muslims. This very forum has already warned me that their is no tolerance of criticising the Muslim faith. And its obvious Muslims have a long list of subjects they refuse to discuss with non Muslims.

I don't know how it will be possible to post anything worthwhile on any Muslim forum. There is simply no conception of free speech.
It depends entirely on which Muslims you are talking to. Would you believe that I, an atheist, once dated a very liberal Muslim woman (from Indonesia) and that neither of us got any flak for it from her family? Sure other Muslims, including many on this board, would balk at such a thing, and some would even get violent against us for it, but to broad brush as you have above is not warranted.

As for this forum, I have been here nearly a decade. Over the years, I do have to say that some of the Muslims here and some of the moderators as well, have been less than fair and less than kind or welcoming. I have had my posts, and even some private messages, deleted or censored for some pretty ridiculous reasons (or lack thereof) at times. But there are also some very kind and accepting and friendly Muslims here, who I have come to know as friends, and some discussions have gone quite contentious without any censoring. This thread is a good example. You have accused Muslims here and this board of being intolerant, and to their credit, the moderators here in this thread have not immediately proven you right.

Meantime, please to acknowledge the other side of the coin here. Islamophobia is at a fevered pitch around the world. People are hated and attacked just for being Muslim. People are hated and attacked just for being Sikh and wearing a turban and being mistaken for Muslim. Remember "burn a Quran day" guy? Donald Trump is running on a platform of "deport all Muslims", and he's the front runner in a major political party and has a shockingly good chance of becoming the next President of the United States.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Freedom of speech troubles me, because it seems to lead to extremes. I am not a Muslim, but I found the cartoons of the prophet pbuh, highly offensive. If someone had drawn those same kind of cartoons about my mother, I would be offended. Yet freedom of speech seems to find them acceptable, after the Charlie Hebdo bombing, world leaders stood in solidarity behind the cartoonists, it spoke volumes that their concept of freedom of expression was being threatened.
Are cartoons about the prophet, or about your mother, more offensive than the majority of the planet and numerous books claimed to be holy telling you that you will and should burn in hell for not believing in what you see as the imaginary? Would you want the Holy Bible and Quran banned as hate speech? No. Freedom of speech is important, for all of us, and to disallow it is to open a very dangerous door. Freedom of speech also means you have a right to rebuke and shame the haters who would draw such cartoons. Violence is never justified in such a situation.
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azc
02-29-2016, 11:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Milton
Im sorry to say from starting off with an open mind my experience of talking to Muslims is one of intolerance, and barely disguised hatred of non Muslims. This very forum has already warned me that their is no tolerance of criticising the Muslim faith. And its obvious Muslims have a long list of subjects they refuse to discuss with non Muslims. I don't know how it will be possible to post anything worthwhile on any Muslim forum. There is simply no conception of free speech.
which religion do you follow?
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The-Deist
02-29-2016, 12:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
which religion do you follow?
I believe he said that he is an athiest.
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Scimitar
02-29-2016, 01:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Milton
I apologise if I have been too abrasive.


I have to now point out that all free thinking has to be without fear of sanction, so in Islam saying "think and beleive" is not really true, those who have left Islam and talk about it are under constant fear of attack, even murder, some of their own families have disowned them.

If you are schooled in Islam from day one, and told you will face severe punishment if you leave the releigion then free thought is impossible im afraid.
Like who? who left islam and then exposed it? :D I'm waiting to debunk your youtube videos with proof that those who claim they used to be Muslims, never were...

...myself, I was born a Muslim and left the religion, only to come back to it myself through conviction that it is the correct path. This, after studying the Abrahamic faith traidions and the shamanic ones as well as the lesser known faith groups.

None appealed more to my sense of divine justice, equity and equality than Islam did, and the more I studied it independently, the more I recognised truth.

So yes, I'm awaiting your ex-Muslims lol. On VC I have a thread exposing all those fakers.

Scimi
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ardianto
02-29-2016, 02:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Milton
I apologise if I have been too abrasive.


I have to now point out that all free thinking has to be without fear of sanction, so in Islam saying "think and beleive" is not really true, those who have left Islam and talk about it are under constant fear of attack, even murder, some of their own families have disowned them.

If you are schooled in Islam from day one, and told you will face severe punishment if you leave the releigion then free thought is impossible im afraid.
Some people in my maternal family are Christians. They converted from Islam into Christianity in late of 19th century, but still accepted by Muslims in the big family. Relationship between Muslims in Christians in my family are always good. One of my Christian relative even lived in my home for few years when he studied in my city.

In certain areas, indeed, ex-Muslims face threat. But mostly of ex-Muslim live safely, even if they live in Muslim majority countries. In Indonesia you can find ex-Muslims who live among Muslims safely. Mostly of them converted because marriage.
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greenhill
02-29-2016, 04:48 PM
Muslim and tolerance.

As in any Abrahamic faith, in islam it is based around the 5 pillars of islam and the 6 of faith. In addition, we must be truthful, charitable, patient, just, think well, do well and say well.

So, islam is about tolerance. Because we are told that life is a test, a temporary abode, but a really, really significant period. Where what is right is always felt like the losing side.

I repeat, again, this is a seriously really important time. Our eternity is at stake. Yes or no to eternity does not negate that we are surely headed to going 6 feet under.

The is where Islam provides the best answer for when you are there, most fair. Bottom line, via His Majestic illustrations, He Shows His Mercy and Forgiveness we know nothing of His Judgment. We can only guess. And that is futile as it is said in the Quran time and again.

In real honesty, I can stick my neck out and say that probably less than a handful in this entire forum would even claim to say that their 5 daily prayers are accepted. I certainly don't. How many years? Not sure if any is accepted by the All Mighty Allah.

Why do I even do it then? I submit to Him. I accept and tolerate by nature to forever and a day be a humble being serving Him by following His Way.

For that, we have have to be patient. Again, that is related to tolerance. When the tolerance is pushed as with the patience, there will be reactions. .

But as br. Scimi said, islam fits the bill. Full stop. If every one gets a chance to study it, untainted, it will blow away everything else. It will cause the collapse of the 1% super duper world ruling class system.

So they plot.

They say everything bad about Islam. Instigate many things against Islam and Muslims. So, who'd want to associate with islam?

When actually, it is only the final message from our Lord, Allah in Arabic, and Elloh (?) in Hebrew(?). But somehow in the Bible (probably because of the changes so extreme) His Name doesn't appear. This Book, the Quran, reaffirms Allah, and His reminders to us all. And his example, Muhammad saw, most patient.

:peace:
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