PDA

View Full Version : Textual corruption of the Qur'an?



Sojourn
03-01-2016, 05:13 AM
Greetings,

I came across an article written by James A. Bellamy who is professor emeritus of Arabic Literature at the University of Michigan. In the article he addressed 11 difficult passages in the Qur'an that have been puzzled over by Muslim commentators and has proposed that they are best explained as corruptions from faulty copying. He suggests clarifying the verses by identifying what he believes were the original words the prophet Muhammad recited.

I understand that from a pure faith view this will be rejected, but I would like the rational opinion of a knowledgeable Muslim in both Arabic and the Qur'an on just how sound his arguments are.

He wrote two articles, they can be found in JSTOR but require a log in:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/605787?s...n_tab_contents

Otherwise a basic text edition can be found here:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Some+p...an.-a015232636
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Sojourn
03-01-2016, 05:23 AM
I would highly suggest getting a free account from JSTOR and reading it there. The basic text from freelibrary.com appears to have been an auto change to text that makes it very hard to read!
Reply

Sojourn
03-04-2016, 05:08 AM
From above article:

===QUOTE===

1. HASAB : FUEL


We shall begin with a case in which, by a lucky accident, both the original and the error have been preserved. In 21:98 we read: innakum wa-ma tabuduna min duni llahi hasabu jahannama, "You and what you worship other than God shall be the fuel of hell." However, Ubayy read hatab instead of hasab, as did Ali and Aishah.(5) Bell, p. 313, translates, "coals," but in a note says it literally means "pebbles"; Paret, p. 269, has "Brennstoff" with a query.

Hasab, in the meaning of fuel, is found only here. The basic meaning of the verb hasaba is "to pelt with pebbles" or "to scatter pebbles." From this sense the lexicographers redefine it to mean "to throw pebbles (i.e., fuel) on a fire"; others limit it to fuel which is thrown into an oven, or used as kindling, but they offer no shawahid in support of any of these meanings. In order to explain its strangeness they hold that hasab is Ethiopic, or in the dialect of Nejd or the Yemen;(6) the word is also said to mean "the fuel of hell" in Zanjiyah.(7) All this only goes to show that it was not known to the Meccans and Medinese. Rabin, p. 26, apparently takes the Yemeni ascription seriously, but does not mention Nejd or Ethiopia. He relates it to the Hebrew hasabh, the agent noun of which, hosebh, occurs in Isaiah 10:15, as the hewer or chopper with an ax. However this is the only occasion on which the word "apparently" refers to cutting wood; the other instances refer to hewing stone.(8) We note too that the regular Old Testament verb for cutting or gathering firewood is hatabh = Arabic hataba.

Obviously correct is hatab; it is the regular word in Arabic for firewood and occurs elsewhere in the Koran (111:4 and 72:15) in that meaning. Closely parallel to 21:98 is 72:15: wa-amma l-qasituna fa-kanu li-jahannama hataban, "As for the unrighteous, they shall be fuel for hell." It is easy to see how the mistake occurred; in copying hatab, the scribe forgot to write the vertical stroke of the t, turning it into a s. This is much like our forgetting to cross a t or dot an i, something that everyone does from time to time.

===END QUOTE===
Reply

Abz2000
03-04-2016, 09:53 AM
Interesting observation, i hope someone with deeper knowledge of the Arabic language will look into it objectively and advise us, however, regardless of the theories arrived at via scrutiny - theories may be incorrect, It would be best to leave the Quranic text exactly as it is unless there is certainty beyond doubt, it hasn't been tampered with since the first generation and setting such a precedent would result in corruption.
if anyone feels convinced that there is a scribal error, it is best they add it in a footnote.
Prudence dictates that messing with the scripture ends in mass deviation - the numerous versions of previous scripture has left no doubt of this, and it would be useful to bear in mind the statement of the khalifah who refused to start a trend of changing the shape of the ka'bah after the two renovations despite witnesses attesting to the statement that it was indeed rectangular.

There is no harm in studying though since the hadith clearly show us that the Prophet pbuh himself sometimes forgot whole surahs, and much in terms of abrogated verses was discarded when the written version was penned. The strict verification requirements laid down for Zaid (ra) also meant that he (ra) would have had to let go of some verses despite huffadh/text being available due to the absence of either text or witnesses. One thing of which we can be reasonably assured of is that what remains is sturdy.



1.*Glorify the name of your Guardian-Lord the Most High,
2.*Who created, and further, gave order and proportion;
3.*And Who ordained laws/decreed. And granted guidance;
4.*And Who brings out the (green and luscious) pasture,
5.*And then makes it (but) swarthy stubble.
6.*We shall teach you to recite so that you shall not forget,
7.*Except as Allah wills: For He knows what is manifest and what is hidden.

8.*And We will make it easy for y'ou (to follow) the simple (Path).
9.*Therefore give admonition in case the admonition profits (the hearer).
10.*The admonition will be received by those who fear ((Allah)):
11.*But it will be avoided by those most unfortunate,
12.*Who will enter the Great Fire,
13.*In which they will then neither die nor live.
14.*But those will prosper who purify themselves,
15.*And glorify the name of their Guardian-Lord, and (lift their hearts) in prayer.
16.*Nay (behold), ye prefer the life of this world;
17.*But the Hereafter is better and more enduring.
18.*And this is in the earliest scrolls,
19.*The scrolls of Abraham and Moses.


Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
AabiruSabeel
03-04-2016, 04:13 PM
It has been proved with mutawatir (overwhelming majority) that there are no mistakes in the Qur'an, whether textual or any other. What these orientalists do is simply assume things based on misunderstanding.

The Qur'an was completely memorized by heart by several companions of the Prophet :saws: during his lifetime. It was also written down completely during his lifetime itself but the written parchments were scattered among the companions.

During the time of first Khalifah, Abu Bakr As-Siddeeq :ra:, the written parchments were compiled together in a book form. During the compilation, each written verse was confirmed by at least two companions who had it memorized and written during the Prophet's :saws: lifetime.

Then again, during the time of the third Khalifah, 'Uthman ibn 'Affan :ra:, Islam became widespread and people began reciting the Qur'an with a slight tint of their own dialects. In order to preserve the original dialect in which Qur'an was revealed, he :ra: ordered copies of the Qur'an in the original Quraish dialect to be made and distributed to all provinces, and asked other various dialects to be discarded.

It is important to note that we have several un-broken mutawatir chains of narration of the Qur'an present even until now. Had there been any mistake in recitation, there would be several hundreds and thousands of Huffaz at any point in history to correct the mistakes.
Reply

AabiruSabeel
03-04-2016, 04:20 PM
In addition to my above post, there was good website know as LinguisticMiracle which closed down for some unknown reasons. If we go through its archives, we can find explanation of several of words of the Qur'an, and how perfectly they are chosen and at the perfect context and location. Please see these pages for details:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150120...le.com/science

https://web.archive.org/web/20131012...word-selection

You can go through the various links on the page to find out more.
Reply

Serinity
03-04-2016, 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by ibn-Adam
It has been proved with mutawatir (overwhelming majority) that there are no mistakes in the Qur'an, whether textual or any other. What these orientalists do is simply assume things based on misunderstanding.

The Qur'an was completely memorized by heart by several companions of the Prophet :saws: during his lifetime. It was also written down completely during his lifetime itself but the written parchments were scattered among the companions.

During the time of first Khalifah, Abu Bakr As-Siddeeq :ra:, the written parchments were compiled together in a book form. During the compilation, each written verse was confirmed by at least two companions who had it memorized and written during the Prophet's :saws: lifetime.

Then again, during the time of the third Khalifah, 'Uthman ibn 'Affan :ra:, Islam became widespread and people began reciting the Qur'an with a slight tint of their own dialects. In order to preserve the original dialect in which Qur'an was revealed, he :ra: ordered copies of the Qur'an in the original Quraish dialect to be made and distributed to all provinces, and asked other various dialects to be discarded.

It is important to note that we have several un-broken mutawatir chains of narration of the Qur'an present even until now. Had there been any mistake in recitation, there would be several hundreds and thousands of Huffaz at any point in history to correct the mistakes.
IDk if this is true, but I've heard that Allah sends someone very pious and knowledgable to the Ummah every century..

I don't know exactly the functions of those people. But Alhamdulillah, Allah will never break His Promise in preserving and protecting the Quran. :D
Reply

talibilm
03-04-2016, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Greetings,

I came across an article written by James A. Bellamy who is professor emeritus of Arabic Literature at the University of Michigan. In the article he addressed 11 difficult passages in the Qur'an that have been puzzled over by Muslim commentators and has proposed that they are best explained as corruptions from faulty copying. He suggests clarifying the verses by identifying what he believes were the original words the prophet Muhammad recited.

I understand that from a pure faith view this will be rejected, but I would like the rational opinion of a knowledgeable Muslim in both Arabic and the Qur'an on just how sound his arguments are.

He wrote two articles, they can be found in JSTOR but require a log in:




Hi

We know from the day of Prophet Muhammad :saws: there have been several attempts to prove by the Pagans, and the people of the book to prove that the noble quran in copied or learnt from some one very learnt but for the past 1400 years it stands unaltered in its wordings and text since its triple guarded through

1) Memory (even a Kid becoming Hafiz and i do remember my rhymes that i sang when i was a 8 year old though I never practised it for the past 4 decades)

2) Written live by scribes (not after half a century from non witnessess)

3) Read everyday 5 times a day in our Obligatory daily 5 times prayers and taught everyday to even 5 years olds and 7 years old becoming Hafiz is only UNIQUE to the noble Quran which has been from the day 1 of its revelations.

So these are just another attempt by the enviers of the Noble quran (nothing New ) just to make the Noble Quran equal to other scriptures of the people of the book since those presently available books could never even stand close to our EVEN weak hadiths when compared to the stringent RULES about Chain of Narrators and their credibility untill our Prophet :saws: that are applied to validate even the weak hadith. So people with reason of any Religion will accept what i say if they sincerely learn how Hadiths are evolved and protected and why talk about the Noble Quran then ?
Reply

Abz2000
03-04-2016, 06:08 PM
Still good to research and find answers since i wouldn't want to get red faced and angry if someone asked such a natural question, i would prefer to give a knowledgeable answer if the question is put forward in sincerety.
We must also bear in mind that some huffadh sahabah's knew much more Quran than we presently have, sometimes they were avoided due to the amount of abrogated verses they would recite.
So it wouldn't knock my faith one bit if i found that there were a few scribal errors, the truth of the Quran and Prophethood of Muhammad pbuh is self evident to any with an inquisitive mind.
Reply

azc
03-04-2016, 06:17 PM
The authenticity of Quran is beyond any doubt. It's not only our iman but also a challenge to the whole world. ''alif laam meem. Zalikal kitabu la raiba feeh''. This is the answer of Quran to all these orientalists who try to create doubts about Quran. And if they still doubt then Quran challenges ''fa'too bisuratin mim mislihi wad'oo shuhadaa'akum min doonillahi in kuntum sadiqeen'' but they can't accept this challenge ''fa in lam taf'aloo wa LAN taf'aloo''
Reply

Abz2000
03-04-2016, 06:56 PM
We can see from the hadith below and from the khamr verses that much was preserved when it could be preserved:

Al Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 53:
Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair:
I said to 'Uthman bin 'Affan (while he was collecting the Qur'an) regarding the Verse:-- "Those of you who die and leave wives ..." (2.240)
"This Verse was abrogated by an other Verse. So why should you write it? (Or leave it in the Qur'an)?" 'Uthman said. "O son of my brother! I will not shift anything of it from its place."

http://www.sultan.org/books/bukhari/060.htm


We also know from the lost verses of the very long "son of adam mountain belly dust" surah that much was lost, we also know that much of the punctuation we now have wasn't present at the time of the original, i am sometimes surprised when the imam stretches the "raaaaaq" in surah qiyamah as if it must be a fixed duration of standing fathas despite most of the sahabah's (ra) having been simple people reciting to the best of their ability and in different dialects with no complaints.
Therefore i have no issues with someone reminding me of the possibility that a word might have missed a jot if they can provide sound observations, i would keep that possibility in mind if it was a sincere effort to find the truth and a reasonable note, and i would continue reciting exactly as it is written in the Quran as it was 1,400 years ago and as it is now unless there was a beyond doubt reason that has been sufficiently and honestly examined internationally to rectify a demonstrable scribal error.

I'm not advanced in Arabic but i'm pretty sure some of us have come across places where a question is begun to be posed such as "am man" or "am" and the latter part appears not present, i would presume that that's either exactly how it was meant to be, or that it wasn't able to be verified stringently at the time of compilation.
Allah knows best.
But i'm definitely not going to waste my time on mutashaabihaat since what is available in terms of guidance is weightier than anything else available on the planet and i don't believe a lifetime is enough to absorb what's available, if someone has the time and can find a good observation, thanks, i'll absorb what knowledge i can if it's worthwhile.

Bukhari
Volume 6, Book 60, Number 8:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:
Umar said, "Our best Qur'an reciter is Ubai and our best judge is 'Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubai because Ubai says, 'I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah's Apostle while Allah:"Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We bring a better one or similar to it." (2.106)


When conversing about ayaat mutashaabihaat, one must also be careful and concerened of the level of the knowledge of listeners, because one may inadvertently be giving them more debatable stuff than the vast amount of guidance and certain stuff available and thereby cause their ignorance to get the better of them, the Prophet pbuh was cautious of harming them in their sensitive stage, but again he had no qualms in speaking the truth exactly as and when it ws required, we have nothing to hide, and we do not cower in the face of legitimate scrutiny as long as it's respectful.

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 11:
Narrated 'Aisha: (The wife of the Prophet) Allah's Apostle said, "Don't you see that when your people built the Ka'ba, they did not build it on all Abraham's foundations?" I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Why don't you rebuild it on Abraham's foundations?"
He said, "Were your people not so close to jahiliyyah ( the period of Heathenism, i.e. the Period between their being Muslims and being infidels), I would do so."
The sub-narrator, 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Aisha had surely heard Allah's Apostle saying that, for I do not think that Allah's Apostle left touching the two corners of the Ka'ba facing Al-Hijr except because the Ka'ba was not built on all Abraham's foundations."

Another thing i've observed is that Allah in His infinite wisdom :sometimes allows doubts to be created and gets minds to start or restart a process of thinking and questioning, there is much benefit in this ultimately as it sifts the hearts, allows those who bother to thibk to become firmly grounded in faith after comparing things in this imperfect world of humans, and also shows up those who dispute for the sake of ignorant contention, He did it in the recitation of Surah najm, He did it during the siege of the confederates at the trench, He did it to the Prophet pbuh at hudaybiyyah where the Prophet pbuh made a pledge on behalf of Uthman who was presumed to have been martyred - despite being alive, to the extent that some sahabah including 'Umar (ra) began to doubt and they even lost morale to the extent that they refused to get up at Allah's messenger's command, He did it when Musa (as) smashed the tablets, He did it when He sent Maryam (as) unmarried and with a child, He did it when He allowed people to believe in the crucifixion, but the end fact is that He makes sure to prove the truth in the minds of those who care to think objectively, otherwise He could have made it all perfect and sent down a sign by which everyone would bend their necks in abject humiliation, He could have even shown Himself if He wanted to, but He lets us evaluate, compare, ponder, wonder, and come to an overall understanding.
This helps us in many stages of our day to day interactions with each other too.


Hudaybiyah: A Victory in the Long Term

Posted by:*Abu Ibraheemin*Analysis,*History,*Islamic Thought*10/03/20116 Comments*Leave your Comment

Sometimes, events happen that are deemed disturbing by those that witness them first hand. But later on, history will describe these same events as significant positive turning points.

.....Umar bin Al-Khattab (RA) was surprised by all this and said, “I never doubted my Islam except on that day.”
He came to the Prophet (SAW) and asked, “Are you not truly the Messenger of Allah (SAW)?”
The Prophet said, “Yes, indeed.”Umar (RA) asked, “Is not our cause just and the cause of the enemy unjust?”
The Prophet (SAW) said, “Yes.”Umar (RA) asked, “Then why should we be humiliated in our religion?”
He (SAW) said, “I am Allah’s Messenger; I do not disobey Him and He will make me victorious.”
Umar (RA) asked, “Did you not tell us that we would go to the Ka’bah and perform Tawaf around it?”
He (SAW) said, “Yes, but did I tell you that we would visit the Ka’bah this year?”
Umar (RA) replied, “No.
”He (SAW) said, “So you will visit it and perform Tawaf around it!”


http://www.islam21c.com/islamic-thou...the-long-term/


This seemed like a technicality to 'Umar (ra) and he was harsh in speech, he also went to Abu Bakr (ra) and it is the method of thought and words of Abu Bakr that actually make things clear, after repeating almost exactly what was said by the Prophet pbuh, he said, i bear witness that he is indeed Allah's messenger and that Allah will not forsake him, so stick to his stirrup til the end.
Abu Bakr's mentality was very different and his title is As-Siddeeq, he was able to bypass the smaller issues and look at the big picture.
His faith was not to be shaken on technicalities even if he was proven to have had a wrong interpretation or understanding initially.
The thing we'd have to wonder is: would the Prophet Muhammad pbuh stop being the Messenger of Allah even if a scribal error was found? Would the truth of Allah's existence be nullified if such an inconsequential fact was later proven? Are we of blind faith and would we follow the method of the people before us who claim that thousands of different totally contradictory versions aren't scribal errors but correct? Would we get angry and reject it if an original parchment proved beyond doubt that a jot was misplaced or would we be prepared to consider?
I'd be prepared for such shocks just in case.


9.*O you who believe! Remember the Grace of Allah, (bestowed) on you, when there came down on you hosts (to overwhelm you): But We sent against them a hurricane and forces that ye saw not: but Allah sees (clearly) all that ye do.
10.*Behold! they came on you from above you and from below you, and behold, the eyes became dim and the hearts gaped up to the throats, and ye imagined various (vain) thoughts about Allah.
11.*In that situation were the Believers tried: they were shaken as by a tremendous shaking.
12.*And behold! The Hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease (even) say: "(Allah) and His Messenger promised us nothing but delusion!"
13.*Behold! A party among them said: "Ye men of Yathrib! ye cannot stand (the attack)! therefore go back!" And a band of them ask for leave of the Prophet, saying, "Truly our houses are bare and exposed," though they were not exposed they intended nothing but to run away.
14.*And if an entry had been effected to them from the sides of the (city), and they had been incited to sedition, they would certainly have brought it to pass, with none but a brief delay!
15.*And yet they had already covenanted with Allah not to turn their backs, and a covenant with Allah must (surely) be answered for.
16.*Say: "Running away will not profit you if ye are running away from death or slaughter; and even if (ye do escape), no more than a brief (respite) will ye be allowed to enjoy!"
17.*Say: "Who is it that can screen you from Allah if it be His wish to give you punishment or to give you Mercy?" Nor will they find for themselves, besides Allah, any protector or helper.
18.*Verily Allah knows those among you who keep back (men) and those who say to their brethren, "Come along to us", but come not to the fight except for just a little while.
19.*Covetous over you. Then when fear comes, thou wilt see them looking to thee, their eyes revolving, like (those of) one over whom hovers death: but when the fear is past, they will smite you with sharp tongues, covetous of goods. Such men have no faith, and so Allah has made their deeds of none effect: and that is easy for Allah.
20.*They think that the Confederates have not withdrawn; and if the Confederates should come (again), they would wish they were in the deserts (wandering) among the Bedouins, and seeking news about you (from a safe distance); and if they were in your midst, they would fight but little.
21.*Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
22.*When the Believers saw the Confederate forces, they said: "This is what Allah and his Messenger had promised us, and Allah and His Messenger told us what was true." And it only added to their faith and their zeal in obedience.
23.*Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah. of them some have completed their vow (to the extreme), and some (still) wait: but they have never changed (their determination) in the least:
24.*That Allah may reward the men of Truth for their Truth, and punish the Hypocrites if that be His Will, or turn to them in Mercy: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
25.*And Allah turned back the Unbelievers for (all) their fury: no advantage did they gain; and enough is Allah for the believers in their fight. And Allah is full of Strength, able to enforce His Will.

Reply

Muhammad
03-04-2016, 07:26 PM
Greetings,

The following thread may also be relevant in clarifying the allegations raised:

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ors-quran.html

Also see:
http://www.islam21c.com/texts/203-an...-of-the-quran/
http://www.islam21c.com/texts/209-th...-of-the-quran/
Reply

Serinity
03-04-2016, 07:41 PM
The Qur'an is in classical Arabic, and in today's time, grammar rules are changing in modern arabic etc. So you can't really apply the grammar rules of today to the Quran. So lets say, in the Quran, the Quran used gramma rule x.. But in today's time, it is not x... rather the language has become corrupt and now, what should have been x is now y... Audhu billah. So you can't really apply it like that.

The Quran uses pure classical Arabic, if I am not mistaken.

May Allah forgive me if I said anything wrong.

Allahu alam.
Reply

AabiruSabeel
03-04-2016, 07:43 PM
Brother Abz, just to clear some points, the abrogated verses were abrogated during the lifetime of the Prophet :saws: and he himself had informed the Sahabah about it. That is the reason why they were not included in the compilation. Some of the abrogations were still in memory of some companions so they referred to it sometimes, but they did not consider it to be part of the Qur'an anymore, as indicated by the Hadith you have quoted above.

Also, the tajweed rules were also documented very early and there are continuous chains of narration for that as well. If you look at the end of the Qur'an, the details are written as follows:

The first paragraph is the chain of narration with the riwayah of Hafs, all the way up to Prophet :saws:.

And the remaining paragraphs explain the details of spelling, letters, vowel signs, numbering of verses, chapters and its parts, and classification of Makky and Madany Surah.

The third paragraph in particular says:
"Each and every letter in this MusHaf is in accordance with the MusHaf prepared and distributed by 'Uthman :ra:."

MusHaf means copy of the Qur'an in book form.
Reply

Abz2000
03-04-2016, 08:28 PM
JazakAllahu khayran for that clarification brother :) , i just keep the possibility in mind in case i'm proven wrong in future, since Allah is always right anyway.
Reply

OmAbdullah
03-04-2016, 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by Serinity
The Qur'an is in classical Arabic, and in today's time, grammar rules are changing in modern arabic etc. So you can't really apply the grammar rules of today to the Quran. So lets say, in the Quran, the Quran used gramma rule x.. But in today's time, it is not x... rather the language has become corrupt and now, what should have been x is now y... Audhu billah. So you can't really apply it like that.

The Quran uses pure classical Arabic, if I am not mistaken.

May Allah forgive me if I said anything wrong.

Allahu alam.

You are very correct in my understanding. Now the Aarabs speak "amiyyah" a language which is far from real Arabic. The fus'ha (Classical Arabic) is preserved with the Holy Quraan.
Reply

OmAbdullah
03-04-2016, 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
Interesting observation, i hope someone with deeper knowledge of the Arabic language will look into it objectively and advise us, however, regardless of the theories arrived at via scrutiny - theories may be incorrect, It would be best to leave the Quranic text exactly as it is unless there is certainty beyond doubt, it hasn't been tampered with since the first generation and setting such a precedent would result in corruption.
if anyone feels convinced that there is a scribal error, it is best they add it in a footnote.
Prudence dictates that messing with the scripture ends in mass deviation - the numerous versions of previous scripture has left no doubt of this, and it would be useful to bear in mind the statement of the khalifah who refused to start a trend of changing the shape of the ka'bah after the two renovations despite witnesses attesting to the statement that it was indeed rectangular.

There is no harm in studying though since the hadith clearly show us that the Prophet pbuh himself sometimes forgot whole surahs, and much in terms of abrogated verses was discarded when the written version was penned. The strict verification requirements laid down for Zaid (ra) also meant that he (ra) would have had to let go of some verses despite huffadh/text being available due to the absence of either text or witnesses. One thing of which we can be reasonably assured of is that what remains is sturdy.




It seems that you, like shiyah sect, don't believe in the preservation of the Holy Quraan. You also have no belief in the verse 9 of surah Al-Hijar, its translation is here:


Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).

My sincere advice is that you must improve your faith before death overtakes you, and then there will be no way to escape.
Reply

Serinity
03-04-2016, 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by nbegam
You are very correct in my understanding. Now the Aarabs speak "amiyyah" a language which is far from real Arabic. The fus'ha (Classical Arabic) is preserved with the Holy Quraan.
So in actuality. The Quran itself is the master, The Dictionary, the definer of grammar itself.

The Quran is in Pure Classical Arabic. And the grammar it uses is what Arabic has been derived from. AFAIK.

I mean it is like this, take Book A, it has all the grammar rules etc. if someone was to come and corrupt the pure language A grammar, and invent a new grammar rule, then by default I'd say The Language and grammar of the Book A is different from current grammar, invented rules.

You can not apply current grammar rules to the Quran, as they have most likely been deviated from the pure grammar. You need to study Pure Classical Arabic.
The same is with the Quran. I think. In shaa' Allah you get my point.

May Allah forgive me if I am wrong. Ameen.

And Allah knows best.
Reply

shafat10
03-04-2016, 11:03 PM
First and foremost, Quran is the highest form of literature of Arabic language, and Muslim and non-Muslim scholars alike agree on this.
So when the Quran itself is the textbook of literature, then how can it have grammatical errors?
It's like taking a ruler and saying that the measurement in the ruler is wrong, lol, totally illogical.
The problem is, because people have very little knowledge in Arabic, that's why they think there's an error. The language of the Quran is so eloquent, that the people of those times were amazed and shocked, and some people couldn't understand the advanced grammar used in the Quran, that they said there are mistakes, which is not at all the case. So this is not something new, this person and even Muslims who don't understand the eloquence of the Quranic grammar, pose such questions.
Allah clearly mentions in the Quran, that the Quran has no errors. And no one will ever be able to change it, because the duty of the protection of the Quran, Allah has taken that duty upon Himself to protect the Quran from corruption. And Allah challenges the people and says, if you think the Quran is wrong, produce a Surah "somewhat similar" like the Quran. And we all know, the smallest Surah in the Quran in just 3 sentences. The Arabic word used there is "fil misma", meaning, "somewhat similar". So you don't have to be 100% similar, but somewhat similar, and you have a chance to try if you think the Quran is wrong. And Allah also gives the reply, "but if you cannot, and of a surety you cannot; then fear the fire of Hell whose fuel is men and stones and which has been created for those who reject faith".
So these verses are more than enough to explain that the Quran doesn't need to be revised, it's us human beings' who brains needs to be revised. The verse "in this book there is no error" is the best example I can have where I know the Quran is 100% right. Anyone who has the slightest bit of Iman will not disagree with it, that the Quran is 100% right, in which case, the Quran is actually 100% right. Period.
Reply

Abz2000
03-04-2016, 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by nbegam
It seems that you, like shiyah sect, don't believe in the preservation of the Holy Quraan. You also have no belief in the verse 9 of surah Al-Hijar, its translation is here:


Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).

My sincere advice is that you must improve your faith before death overtakes you, and then there will be no way to escape.
It seems that you need to avoid pushing silly labels and flying untrue accusations.

I have no reason to believe that the Quran contains errors.
if there did ever turn out to be any scribal errors, it would mean that the verse meant something deeper than a shallow pen slide.
Prophets are also guarded but some have been killed, they did however fulfil what was required in their task.
The Prophet pbuh was also attacked and guarded during battles so the verse promising him protection was deeper than physical attack.
It also appears that "not one jot nor tittle shall be changed till all be fulfilled" was referring to more than just text during the previous scenario.
i keep an open mind, and if anything new ever does come forward, i shan't be of the type who once said: the final messenger must be a jew otherwise we reject him, or the Messiah must be from jerusalem and of david and not Galilee so we reject him because this sinner has no father.
or oh here's undeniable proof that there was an error but i'll be like the pope at vatican city and excommunicate all heretics who believe in God but claim that there's more to the story - thereby losing my own faith before God - instead of saying: O Allah, you know best.

My sincere advice is that you must improve your faith and akhlaq before death overtakes you, and then there will be no way to escape.


For those who are less aware of the events and the fact that some Quran is lost, know that even the Prophet pbuh was not immune from forgetting:

Narrated `Aisha:The Prophet (ﷺ) heard a man (reciting Qur'an) in the Mosque, and he said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy upon him. No doubt, he made me remember such-and such Verses of such-and-such Sura which I dropped (from my memory).
Narrated Aisha: The Prophet (ﷺ) performed the Tahajjud prayer in my house, and then he heard the voice of `Abbad who was praying in the Mosque, and said, "O `Aisha! Is this `Abbad's voice?"
I said, "Yes."
He said, "O Allah! Be merciful to `Abbad!"

http://quranx.com/hadith/bukhari/Book-52/Hadith-19/

Other referencesIn-book reference
Book 52, Hadith 19
Reference
Sahih al-Bukhari 2655USC-MSA web (English) reference
Vol. 3, Book 48, Hadith 823*Related Quran verses

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عُبَيْدِ بْنِ مَيْمُونٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا عِيسَى بْنُ يُونُسَ، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ قَالَتْ سَمِعَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم رَجُلاً يَقْرَأُ فِي الْمَسْجِدِ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ رَحِمَهُ اللَّهُ، لَقَدْ أَذْكَرَنِي كَذَا وَكَذَا آيَةً، أَسْقَطْتُهُنَّ مِنْ سُورَةِ كَذَا وَكَذَا ‏"‏‏.‏ وَزَادَ عَبَّادُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَنْ عَائِشَةَ تَهَجَّدَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِي بَيْتِي فَسَمِعَ صَوْتَ عَبَّادٍ يُصَلِّي فِي الْمَسْجِدِ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ يَا عَائِشَةُ، أَصَوْتُ عَبَّادٍ هَذَا ‏"‏‏.‏ قُلْتُ نَعَمْ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ اللَّهُمَّ ارْحَمْ عَبَّادًا ‏"‏‏.‏
Reply

OmAbdullah
03-04-2016, 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
From above article:

===QUOTE===

1. HASAB : FUEL


We shall begin with a case in which, by a lucky accident, both the original and the error have been preserved. In 21:98 we read: innakum wa-ma tabuduna min duni llahi hasabu jahannama, "You and what you worship other than God shall be the fuel of hell." However, Ubayy read hatab instead of hasab, as did Ali and Aishah.(5) Bell, p. 313, translates, "coals," but in a note says it literally means "pebbles"; Paret, p. 269, has "Brennstoff" with a query.

Hasab, in the meaning of fuel, is found only here. The basic meaning of the verb hasaba is "to pelt with pebbles" or "to scatter pebbles." From this sense the lexicographers redefine it to mean "to throw pebbles (i.e., fuel) on a fire"; others limit it to fuel which is thrown into an oven, or used as kindling, but they offer no shawahid in support of any of these meanings. In order to explain its strangeness they hold that hasab is Ethiopic, or in the dialect of Nejd or the Yemen;(6) the word is also said to mean "the fuel of hell" in Zanjiyah.(7) All this only goes to show that it was not known to the Meccans and Medinese. Rabin, p. 26, apparently takes the Yemeni ascription seriously, but does not mention Nejd or Ethiopia. He relates it to the Hebrew hasabh, the agent noun of which, hosebh, occurs in Isaiah 10:15, as the hewer or chopper with an ax. However this is the only occasion on which the word "apparently" refers to cutting wood; the other instances refer to hewing stone.(8) We note too that the regular Old Testament verb for cutting or gathering firewood is hatabh = Arabic hataba.

Obviously correct is hatab; it is the regular word in Arabic for firewood and occurs elsewhere in the Koran (111:4 and 72:15) in that meaning. Closely parallel to 21:98 is 72:15: wa-amma l-qasituna fa-kanu li-jahannama hataban, "As for the unrighteous, they shall be fuel for hell." It is easy to see how the mistake occurred; in copying hatab, the scribe forgot to write the vertical stroke of the t, turning it into a s. This is much like our forgetting to cross a t or dot an i, something that everyone does from time to time.

===END QUOTE===

The dictionary meaning of Hasab=pebbles, small stones.

The dictionary meaning of hatab=fire wood, wood.

Allah said in surah Al-Baqarah 23 and 24 (their translation is):


And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Quran) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful.

But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

As you can see in the underlined part of the above verse, here Allah used the word stones for the fuel of Hell and it is the same as hasab which means small stones or pebbles. In one of the commentary of this verse I read that the fuel of Hell is sulphar stones!!!


Now we can see as well as you that the Creator of Hell has made Hell and also has managed horrible Fire in it which is to burn the stubborn fighters, those who fight with The Almighty Creator and they forget about their weak humble nature!!!

Allah has informed, mankind, about the material of the fuel which is 1. fire wood, 2. Sulphur stones and even may be Phosphorus and other terrible chemicals, 3. Alive bodies of the unbelievers and believing sinners.


The believers, after getting punishment, will be finally taken out of Hell and will be admitted to Paradise. But the arrogant unbelievers shall be left in Hell to burn for ever.

You shouldn't be in doubt about the fuel stones being Sulphur or phosphorus or any other chemical element, or compound, solid or liquid or gas!!!

If Satan puts you in doubt and unbelief, then you should remember or watch a volcano in which all such fuel is burning and fire spreads far and wide!!! See you, no one can say that the fuel of a volcano is produced by someone other than Almighty God.
Can you enter a burning volcano???

No, I am sure. Then why do you obey Satan who is your avowed enemy??? You should take admonition from the Holy Quraan and protect yourself from Hell, that shall be a wise step. Don't fight against Allah, Almighty God. See how kind is Allah that for our lesson, has made the fire of volcano. It is so much frightening, it is a killer and it comes out from the same earth which contains Hell. So fear Allah and take heed!!!
Reply

talibilm
03-05-2016, 02:27 AM
Originally Posted by Serinity
The Qur'an is in classical Arabic, and in today's time, grammar rules are changing in modern arabic etc. So you can't really apply the grammar rules of today to the Quran. So lets say, in the Quran, the Quran used gramma rule x.. But in today's time, it is not x... rather the language has become corrupt and now, what should have been x is now y... Audhu billah. So you can't really apply it like that.

The Quran uses pure classical Arabic, if I am not mistaken.

May Allah forgive me if I said anything wrong.

Allahu alam.
Salam,

Yes you are right and this is very true for the past even only 300 years ago even in well known and well documented languages as English had changes in grammar and even meanings (why 300 only before 30 years words like screw , the Four letter filthy words -F--- have started having new meanings today and even used by the educated ^o) ) , so how about those semitic languages ?? Even Jews were poor in Hebrew so they used Greek to document their OT first ,says Biblica in its own below words ( sorry am not allowed to post links)

''......................The fact is that many Jews could not even read Hebrew anymore around 300 BC a translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek was undertaken, and it was completed around 200 BC.Gradually this Greek translation of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint, was widely accepted and was even used in many synagogues.......................''


Since we are speaking about Arabic who were so undevelped where we did not have even an academic calender year untill the 3rd Caliph Umar (RA) discussed (mashoora) and started it (AH calender year ) making the Islamic Medina Emigration as the count of the first year there are all possibilities of such errors since about just 1 % of Arabs were literates .

But even taking these Errors still the Noble Quran is THE BEST GUARDED BOOK IN THE HISTORY OF THIS GLOBE since we have to memorize it any how as we are not allowed hold our THE Noble Quran in our Hands in our 5 times daily prayer as the Jews and Christians do so we Muslims were bound and obliged to Memorize from the very early days of its revelations

So Muslims are in the right track untill they follow the Noble Quran aided with the noble hadith and also its incidents since actions of Prophet :saws: and his companions Since actions speak more than words .

About the abrogated verses nothing is abrogated except with a strong hadith as a proof for its abrogation or substitution as per Imaam Al Suyuti (rah) which i had discussed in the ummah Forum and we have seen how Allah helped his slaves from sins by his 'The All wise''s hikmah of abrogation .
Reply

talibilm
03-05-2016, 02:38 AM
EDIT : To add to the above post


Another reason for such claims is also due the conservation of exact words and text of the Noble Quran as it is from the day one of revelation before 1400 years untill this modern era where as other books have been changed as per their ages to make the common masses understand easier while Muslims never do that and barred to do that.
Reply

AabiruSabeel
03-05-2016, 04:21 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
For those who are less aware of the events and the fact that some Quran is lost, know that even the Prophet pbuh was not immune from forgetting:

Narrated `Aisha:The Prophet (ﷺ) heard a man (reciting Qur'an) in the Mosque, and he said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy upon him. No doubt, he made me remember such-and such Verses of such-and-such Sura which I dropped (from my memory).
Narrated Aisha: The Prophet (ﷺ) performed the Tahajjud prayer in my house, and then he heard the voice of `Abbad who was praying in the Mosque, and said, "O `Aisha! Is this `Abbad's voice?"
I said, "Yes."
He said, "O Allah! Be merciful to `Abbad!"
The fact that the Prophet :saws: himself was made to forget the abrogated verses is right. Allah :swt: says:

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent? [Al-Baqarah: 106]

But this does not mean that any part of the Qur'an is lost. Because whatever was abrogated for recitation during the lifetime of the Prophet :saws:, it does not remain part of the Qur'an anymore. To preserve the complete Qur'an, Jibra'eel :as: used to recite the Qur'an to the Prophet :saws: every year during Ramadhan.

Narrated Abu-Huraira :ra:

Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet :saws: once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he died. The Prophet :saws: used to stay in I'tikaf for ten days every year (in the month of Ramadan), but in the year of his death, he stayed in I'tikaf for twenty days. [Bukhari]

As we can see from the above Hadith, the Qur'an was completely finalized as we have it now during the last year of the Prophet :saws:. Since then, there has been no additions or subtractions.


If anyone wants to read more about the abrogation in detail, please see this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/qur-an/4...brogation.html

You will also find useful threads and posts linked here: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1543178
Reply

OmAbdullah
03-05-2016, 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
It seems that you need to avoid pushing silly labels and flying untrue accusations.

I have no reason to believe that the Quran contains errors.
if there did ever turn out to be any scribal errors, it would mean that the verse meant something deeper than a shallow pen slide.
Prophets are also guarded but some have been killed, they did however fulfil what was required in their task.
The Prophet pbuh was also attacked and guarded during battles so the verse promising him protection was deeper than physical attack.
It also appears that "not one jot nor tittle shall be changed till all be fulfilled" was referring to more than just text during the previous scenario.
i keep an open mind, and if anything new ever does come forward, i shan't be of the type who once said: the final messenger must be a jew otherwise we reject him, or the Messiah must be from jerusalem and of david and not Galilee so we reject him because this sinner has no father.
or oh here's undeniable proof that there was an error but i'll be like the pope at vatican city and excommunicate all heretics who believe in God but claim that there's more to the story - thereby losing my own faith before God - instead of saying: O Allah, you know best.

My sincere advice is that you must improve your faith and akhlaq before death overtakes you, and then there will be no way to escape.


For those who are less aware of the events and the fact that some Quran is lost, know that even the Prophet pbuh was not immune from forgetting:

Narrated `Aisha:The Prophet (ﷺ) heard a man (reciting Qur'an) in the Mosque, and he said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy upon him. No doubt, he made me remember such-and such Verses of such-and-such Sura which I dropped (from my memory).
Narrated Aisha: The Prophet (ﷺ) performed the Tahajjud prayer in my house, and then he heard the voice of `Abbad who was praying in the Mosque, and said, "O `Aisha! Is this `Abbad's voice?"
I said, "Yes."
He said, "O Allah! Be merciful to `Abbad!"

http://quranx.com/hadith/bukhari/Book-52/Hadith-19/

Other referencesIn-book reference
Book 52, Hadith 19
Reference
Sahih al-Bukhari 2655USC-MSA web (English) reference
Vol. 3, Book 48, Hadith 823*Related Quran verses

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عُبَيْدِ بْنِ مَيْمُونٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا عِيسَى بْنُ يُونُسَ، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ قَالَتْ سَمِعَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم رَجُلاً يَقْرَأُ فِي الْمَسْجِدِ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ رَحِمَهُ اللَّهُ، لَقَدْ أَذْكَرَنِي كَذَا وَكَذَا آيَةً، أَسْقَطْتُهُنَّ مِنْ سُورَةِ كَذَا وَكَذَا ‏"‏‏.‏ وَزَادَ عَبَّادُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَنْ عَائِشَةَ تَهَجَّدَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِي بَيْتِي فَسَمِعَ صَوْتَ عَبَّادٍ يُصَلِّي فِي الْمَسْجِدِ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ يَا عَائِشَةُ، أَصَوْتُ عَبَّادٍ هَذَا ‏"‏‏.‏ قُلْتُ نَعَمْ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ اللَّهُمَّ ارْحَمْ عَبَّادًا ‏"‏‏.‏


I don't have the principle to fight against the attacks on my character. I trust Allah and do believe that honor and insult is only in Allah's Hands.


You are blaming Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wasllam again and again with the forgetting of surahs or verses. You are actually attacking Allah's power to preserve the Quraan. I cannot keep quiet on such attacks. I am not falsely accusing you. Your own writings are the proof to every reader. Remember, once you had accused Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wasllam of having snoring habit. I have never read such rude words about Him salla Allaho alaihi wasllam from any Muslim except you. I cannot forget those rude words.

Again when I advised you, it was not to attack your honor. Again I repeat that giving honor or humiliation is only in Allah's Hands. But as a sincere Muslim sister I tried to remind you your mistakes which shall certainly harm you in the Here-After.

The ahaadeeth that you are bringing with the name of Ayishah rAa are not true. these are going against Allah's power and also against Allah's Promises in the Holy Quraan.
Reply

talibilm
03-06-2016, 12:16 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
Still good to research and find answers since i wouldn't want to get red faced and angry if someone asked such a natural question, i would prefer to give a knowledgeable answer if the question is put forward in sincerety.
We must also bear in mind that some huffadh sahabah's knew much more Quran than we presently have, sometimes they were avoided due to the amount of abrogated verses they would recite.
So it wouldn't knock my faith one bit if i found that there were a few scribal errors, the truth of the Quran and Prophethood of Muhammad pbuh is self evident to any with an inquisitive mind.
Salam,

could you kindly point them with Sahih hadiths references ? jzk
Reply

Abz2000
03-06-2016, 02:16 AM
Originally Posted by nbegam
I don't have the principle to fight against the attacks on my character. I trust Allah and do believe that honor and insult is only in Allah's Hands.


You are blaming Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wasllam again and again with the forgetting of surahs or verses. You are actually attacking Allah's power to preserve the Quraan. I cannot keep quiet on such attacks. I am not falsely accusing you. Your own writings are the proof to every reader. Remember, once you had accused Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wasllam of having snoring habit. I have never read such rude words about Him salla Allaho alaihi wasllam from any Muslim except you. I cannot forget those rude words.

Again when I advised you, it was not to attack your honor. Again I repeat that giving honor or humiliation is only in Allah's Hands. But as a sincere Muslim sister I tried to remind you your mistakes which shall certainly harm you in the Here-After.

The ahaadeeth that you are bringing with the name of Ayishah rAa are not true. these are going against Allah's power and also against Allah's Promises in the Holy Quraan.
Seems you're very eager to falsely attack the intentions of others, a'uthubillah, and before speaking without any knowledge or guiding book, check for yourself and don't make a fool of yourself, remember the words of Abu Bakr when Abu Jahl came and asked his opinion on the Isra' and Mi'raj.
It is reported that he pbuh would sometimes freeze up and snore loudly when downloading. The companions would cover him with a piece of cloth, i should have let a novice answer that but find myself unable to leave the ignorant to wait.

The hadith is in sahih Al Bukhari, link provided above, go check it yourself.

Some honest feedback, your posts come across as vile.
Learn to communicate a little objectively and sanely.
Reply

Abz2000
03-06-2016, 02:18 AM
Originally Posted by talibilm
Salam,

could you kindly point them with Sahih hadiths references ? jzk
Wa'alaikum as Salam brother (i hope),

Kindly refer to the hadith i posted in post #11 of page one, it references the reasoning behind preserving what was possible, and also the early tendency to discard abrogated verses, the first hadith indicates a difference in the compilation approah of Uthman (ra) to that which was previously done by Abu Bakr (ra) in that Uthman (ra)'s compilation is of larger volume and the most thorough and costly in research and standardization and the team was organized very professionally (from what can be gleaned), also the situation of the state had become much more stable and administrative during Umar (ra)'s reign and vast expansions with whole new organized departments being run on an international level.

it was the martyrdoms of many who were well versed in portions of the Quran that led to 'Umar (ra) requesting Abu Bakr As-siddeeq (ra) to have it compiled. Abu Bakr (ra) was at first reported to have been reluctant to do so because the final Messenger of Allah (pbuh) had not done so, but then accepted the sound reasoning.
if it was just a case of 'Uthman (ra) having it copy pasted from Hafsa (ra) alone, there would have been no need for standardization of language or the thorough and tedious verification process along with other detailed instructions given by 'Uthman (ra) to Zayd (ra). And there would have been no need for Sahabah (ra) questioning him on his inclusion of abrogated verses. It appears clear that 'Uthman (ra) wanted to leave no verifiable verse out and the feeling of importance in preserving everything possible had increased with time since the magnitude of the events have more effect after a momentous time passes a people by since they are no longer living in the moment.
it was destined that whatever was to come together as a book would reach us as it is since it is called "kitab" by Allah (swt) Himself.
ultimately we received what Allah willed us to receive.


The man 'Abbad (ra) i believe is the one who had a nice voice and loved to memorize Quran, whom the Prophet pbuh reportedly assigned the duty to safeguard especially surah Al Kahf to memory and who once continued reciting it during his night watch at battle camp despite being shot with 2/3/4 arrows until he felt that the enemy might rush in on them before he could finish the recitation in which he had become so immersed.
Reply

talibilm
03-06-2016, 05:02 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
Wa'alaikum as Salam brother (i hope),

Kindly refer to the hadith i posted in post #11 of page one, it references the reasoning behind preserving what was possible, and also the early tendency to discard abrogated verses,
Bro, Jzk for your reply . Imho tendency and doubts does not mean the same. I am quoting your hadith ref in question below which was just a doubt and such doubts were even raised by well known sahabas like Abdullah Ibn Masud (ra) NOT AS A TENDENCY BUT AS A DOUBT THAT TEND TO OCCUR DUE TO THEIR HIGHEST TAKWA OR PRECAUTION NOT TO MEDDLE WITH THE NOBLE QURAN and inshallah WE will understand when we contemplate on that hadiths pasted below from your post # 11

Al Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 53:
Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair:
I said to 'Uthman bin 'Affan (while he was collecting the Qur'an) regarding the Verse:-- "Those of you who die and leave wives ..." (2.240)
"This Verse was abrogated by an other Verse. So'' why '' should you write it? (Or leave it in the Qur'an)?" 'Uthman said. "O son of my brother! I will not shift anything of it from its place."

Note: Az Zubair (ra) did not say to leave it but asked what's was the reason instead ? When Caliph Uthman (ra) AFFIRMS during his1st & Final Affirmation to be untill the last days of the world ( NOT a 2nd compilation as non muslims think and Apologetics try to portray we should be careful about their hijacking our comments ) that he will not change anything that was written under the first Caliph Abu Backr (ra) that was available with Hafsa (ra) which was given back to her after this reaffirmation (not burnt) and this hadith is also a EXPLICIT PROOF that abrogated verses were never left out of the noble Quran unless which Allah caused it to be forgotten. .

Another such example was from Abdullah ibn Masud (ra) whom the Prophet :saws: has guaranteed. Ibn Masud did have a doubt whether to include sura 1,sura fatiha inside the noble Quran though the proof about its inclusion was already available from the Noble Quran itself by the verse 15:87 . Such great vigilance is a very welcome able factor and clear proof about the great precision that the esteemed Sahabas utilised in Uthman (ra)'s first & final reaffirming of the Noble Quran . The reason for his doubt , Ibn Masud (ra) says himself like that its because he did not hear its inclusion DIRECTLY EXPLICITLY from Prophet :saws: as a hadith ( from Al Itiqan ) only PROVES The Noble quran was affirmed very systematically and with the ever highest precision ever used in the history of the world in a reaffirmation of any book from its 1st source before 1400 years. So There is nothing that should make us to have even the slightest doubt about the guarded book of Allah.
Reply

Sojourn
03-06-2016, 05:42 AM
Originally Posted by talibilm
Hi

We know from the day of Prophet Muhammad :saws: there have been several attempts to prove by the Pagans, and the people of the book to prove that the noble quran in copied or learnt from some one very learnt but for the past 1400 years it stands unaltered in its wordings and text since its triple guarded through

1) Memory (even a Kid becoming Hafiz and i do remember my rhymes that i sang when i was a 8 year old though I never practised it for the past 4 decades)

2) Written live by scribes (not after half a century from non witnessess)

3) Read everyday 5 times a day in our Obligatory daily 5 times prayers and taught everyday to even 5 years olds and 7 years old becoming Hafiz is only UNIQUE to the noble Quran which has been from the day 1 of its revelations.

So these are just another attempt by the enviers of the Noble quran (nothing New ) just to make the Noble Quran equal to other scriptures of the people of the book since those presently available books could never even stand close to our EVEN weak hadiths when compared to the stringent RULES about Chain of Narrators and their credibility untill our Prophet :saws: that are applied to validate even the weak hadith. So people with reason of any Religion will accept what i say if they sincerely learn how Hadiths are evolved and protected and why talk about the Noble Quran then ?
In the segment on Hatab versus Hasab, Bellamy references, "However, Ubayy read hatab instead of hasab, as did Ali and Aishah."

How do you understand this clash in tradition since some companions read it as hatab and not hasab?
Reply

talibilm
03-06-2016, 06:27 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Greetings,

I understand that from a theological perspective these propositions are impossible, but I am curious from an a linguistic perspective whether these propositions have any merit.

I managed to piece together another segment, again if anyone is familiar with Arabic I would like to know just how sound these propositions are:

===QUOTE===

4. SIJILL : WRITER OF A DOCUMENT


In 21:104 God describes how He is going to proceed on the last day: yawma natwi l-sama a ka-tayyi l-sijilli lil-kutubi, "The day on which we shall fold up the heavens as the sijill folds up the writings."

The meaning of sijill, a well-known word in Arabic, is "document," consequently the "document" could not do any folding or rolling up of other documents. This problem has been approached from two directions.
Yes, there are some subjects in the noble Quran which even Allah calls them as mutashabihaath in verse 3:7 . So are the verses about the Martyrs being provided sustenace after their death, life after death , seas burning on the day of judgement which will be of 50,000 years , angels etc

We can only speculate from our imaginations or explain them if a relevant hadith is available about them but should console ourselves as Believers and not to think too much about them as said in verse 3:7 . But My conscience says In spite of our 10,000 folds of scientific advancement we are still unable to sole the mystery of our Human soul itself with which we are always living TOGETHER every day and that confirms the Authenticity of the Noble Quran which says that we (humans ) have been given by Allah only little knowledge about the soul (17:85)

We also know that the Noble Quran calls stars as great stars (25:61) while calling the Sun as just a lamp and even Prophet :saws: referred this Earth 's value in the sight of Allah as just not even equal to a Fly's single wing, Which are all true and are accepted by all of us . So its better for us to give the benefit of our doubt ( though I do not doubt about them ) to our Creator Allah in what ever he had said and in those matters that we do not understand we leave it to his incomparable MIGHT and only ponder on those things where he has given us the knowledge to ponder and such things are much abundant than things we do not understand.

I am not familiar with the other issue you had asked and i try to avoid that knowledge that does not serve much purpose of Islam .
Reply

Abz2000
03-06-2016, 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Greetings,

I understand that from a theological perspective these propositions are impossible, but I am curious from an a linguistic perspective whether these propositions have any merit.

I managed to piece together another segment, again if anyone is familiar with Arabic I would like to know just how sound these propositions are:



===QUOTE===

4. SIJILL : WRITER OF A DOCUMENT


In 21:104 God describes how He is going to proceed on the last day: yawma natwi l-sama a ka-tayyi l-sijilli lil-kutubi, "The day on which we shall fold up the heavens as the sijill folds up the writings."

The meaning of sijill, a well-known word in Arabic, is "document," consequently the "document" could not do any folding or rolling up of other documents. This problem has been approached from two directions. Some of the commentators realized that sijill had to be the subject of the masdar tayy, so they interpreted it as the name of an angel, a man's name, or the name of the prophet's scribe. Others, however, held that sijill was a sheet of vellum or papyrus (sahifah) and redefine the phrase to mean: ka-tayyi l-sijilli ala ma fihi mina l-kitab, "as the sijill is folded over the writing that is on it." Tabari prefers the latter explanation since he says sijill is well known, and that there is no angel or scribe known by this name.(21) The redefinition of the function of the prep. li-, however, is too drastic to be credible.

The Westerners generally follow Th. Noldeke's opinion that Muhammad mistakenly took the name of the document for the writer of it. This idea, however, is untenable. Although he may have been illiterate, the prophet was nevertheless surrounded by writing. He was a merchant and so was his wife. He dictated portions of the revelation to scribes, and he doubtless dictated his correspondence as well, and must have received letters that were opened and read before him. He had a share in the drafting of two important legal documents, the Constitution of Medina, and the Treaty of Hudaybiya. In short, writing was so widely employed at the time that Muhammad could not have confused the document with its writer.

Those commentators who saw in al-sijill the writer and the subject of tayy were correct, although they could not take the last step necessary for reaching the correct reading. This problem can be solved with a simple emendation, by changing al-sijill to al-musjil or al-musajjil. The loss of the mim is easy to explain. In older hands the mim after the def. art. does not turn back under the lam as it does in later hands, but is often no more than a thickening of the connecting line between the lam and the letter following. Here too, a leaky pen may have run the mim into the first tooth of the sin, causing the mim to lose its identity; and possibly one of the teeth was indistinct, thus facilitating the misreading.

===END QUOTE===
Again, hope someone with more understanding of the Arabic language and Quranic terminology can respond with knowledge, i would just remind that kitab also meant "a writing" "a finished letter" even if it was in sealed scroll form - since the queen if Sab'a calls the letter sent by Sulailman bpuh as "Kitaabun Kareem".

Also bear in mind that Quranic words are often arranged in verse/prose format and traditional grammatical methods are sometimes ignored when metering verses for effect and ease of memorization. You probably notice this in poetry/rap and in the fact that we still remember things like "i before e excepts after c" and "never eat shredded wheat" (then spend ages explaining to the kids that shredded wheat is halal but that's how to remember north east south west clockwise), "or thirty days hath september, april june and november......." despite having to rearrange all the months.

Regarding the fact that the Prophet pbuh had much writing around him is undeniable, but what is also undeniable is that he pbuh himself was illiterate, and he pbuh was having to hold verses in memory, and also subract abrogated verses and add new verses, which is difficult enough for a person who ca read and write with all the information laid out before him on a messy desk, but impossible to arrange and shuffle in such perfect order in one's memory.
one has to look into the lexicology of the Quran and the subtle hints which accompany the grouping of words in rhyme, temper. and tone.
Nouman Ali Khan delves into this in high detail, if nobody on the forum is able to answer, i believe posting NAK an email should get you a detailed reply or he can pass it on to someone more knowledgable in the field.

Anyway, it's not limited to those points since the life of the Prophet pbuh and his companions, the conditions, their struggles, the facts and wisdom self evident in the Quran, the Prophets and scriptures before him, history and the future all come together to paint a huge picture unable to be rejected by any reasonably thinking person as man made.

Also notice the eloquence and majestic touch to the words of Quran, and the poetic rhythm
It's a little like freestyling the queens speech.
Check up on the differences between written and spoken word, and freestyle rap vs composed rap.
also read up on the holy spirit, and the stunned words of 'Umar ibn al Khattab when he first encountered the opening verses of Surah Ta-Ha.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/writingvspeech.htm

https://www.hamilton.edu/oralcommuni...itten-language

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freestyle_rap

Allah is Unique in every aspect.

Reply

Sojourn
03-06-2016, 02:26 PM
In terms of Arabic script, are Hatab and Hasab similarly written? Likewise, can al-sijjil and al-musjil be the results of spelling errors?

In some cases the argument involves a developing Arabic writing method, but I'm curious if these are possible even in contemporary Arabic writing.
Reply

AabiruSabeel
03-06-2016, 03:30 PM
Sojourn, what you have quoted is based on the false assumption that the written textual Qur'an is the only original preserved Qur'an, whereas we Muslims believe that Qur'an is preserved by memorization and its recitations, not merely written. That is why anyone who memorizes the Qur'an is known as a Hafiz, which means, the one who saved (as in saving a file in computer terms). It also means the one who preserved or memorized.

Throughout Muslim history, there have been several hundreds of thousands of Huffaz (plural of Hafiz) at any point of time. The Huffaz studied under their teachers, who in turn studied under teachers. There has always been a continuous chain of teachers all the way up to the Prophet :saws:. The written text is only used as an aid while memorizing. The Huffaz recite the Qur'an by heart to their teachers several times throughout their study, the same way as the Prophet :saws: used to recite it to angel Jibreel :as:.

Therefore, it is a fallacy to assume the scribes have made a mistake or their pens leaked. Even if that was the case, the Huffaz of that time would have immediately objected and the mistake would have been duly corrected.
Reply

Sojourn
03-06-2016, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by ibn-Adam
Therefore, it is a fallacy to assume the scribes have made a mistake or their pens leaked. Even if that was the case, the Huffaz of that time would have immediately objected and the mistake would have been duly corrected.
Your line of thinking is correct, assuming the Islamic tradition is correct even if there had been textual corruption of the mushaf we would expect the oral narration to preserve and correct it. An important implication of Bellamy's emendations is that it challenges the idea of a strong oral tradition. If his emendations are correct, it would mean there was not a strong chain of huffaz going back to the Prophet but instead at some early point, the text had priority or at least strong weight in shaping the way the Qur'an was recited orally. This though is going very deep into all the implications of his arguments. Right now I'm just looking for thoughtful opinions the strength of his arguments themselves. They seem reasonable from an outsider's perspective but I don't have a strong grasp of Arabic to judge how well they work linguistically.
Reply

AabiruSabeel
03-06-2016, 06:42 PM
It is one of the miracles of the Qur'an. Written scriptures can be tampered with, as have happened with all previous scriptures. But Allah :swt: preserved the Qur'an by a unique method, memorization and oral recitation. I had posted this in another thread earlier:

Originally Posted by ibn-Adam
Allah SubHanahu wa Ta'ala says:

وَإِنَّهُ لَتَنزِيلُ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ ﴿١٩٢﴾ نَزَلَ بِهِ الرُّوحُ الْأَمِينُ ﴿١٩٣﴾ عَلَىٰ قَلْبِكَ لِتَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُنذِرِينَ ﴿١٩٤﴾ بِلِسَانٍ عَرَبِيٍّ مُّبِينٍ ﴿١٩٥﴾ـ




And indeed, the Qur'an is the revelation of the Lord of the worlds.
The Trustworthy Spirit has brought it down
Upon your heart
, [O Muhammad] - that you may be of the warners -
In a clear Arabic language. [26:192-195]

Previous scriptures were in written from yet they were corrupted. The miracle of the Qur'an is that it is revealed on the heart of our Prophet :saws1: and it passes on from a heart to millions of hearts until Allah wills for it to be lifted near the last Day.
Reply

Sojourn
03-06-2016, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by ibn-Adam
It is one of the miracles of the Qur'an. Written scriptures can be tampered with, as have happened with all previous scriptures. But Allah :swt: preserved the Qur'an by a unique method, memorization and oral recitation. I had posted this in another thread earlier:
I know theologically it's impossible from a faith perspective, but looking at the two emendations I quoted above, what do you make of the arguments themselves? On the appearance of things Hasab and al-musjill being the original words make a lot of sense, and the explanation of a simple scribal error seem rather convincing from an outsider point of view.
Reply

OmAbdullah
03-07-2016, 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
It seems that you need to avoid pushing silly labels and flying untrue accusations.

I have no reason to believe that the Quran contains errors.
if there did ever turn out to be any scribal errors, it would mean that the verse meant something deeper than a shallow pen slide.
Prophets are also guarded but some have been killed, they did however fulfil what was required in their task.
The Prophet pbuh was also attacked and guarded during battles so the verse promising him protection was deeper than physical attack.
It also appears that "not one jot nor tittle shall be changed till all be fulfilled" was referring to more than just text during the previous scenario.



Bismi-Allahir-Rahmaanir-Raheem

According tothe Islamic history, The Final Prophet Muhammad (Allah's Peace and Blessings beupon him) was wounded twice! Once in Taa’-if before Hijra (migration toMadinah) when Allah Almighty sent to him salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam theangel of mountains with Jibreel alaihi salaam and gave him the authority toorder the angel to crush the people of Taa’if in between the two mountains, butthe Prophet (Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him) became patient and didn’torder the punishment. 2ndtime was in the Battle of Uhud when he salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam gotextensive injuries! After that Allah announced that Allah Almighty wouldprotect HIS Prophet (Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him) and thisannouncement came down from Heaven to Muhammad (Allah's Peace and Blessings beupon him) in the verse 67 of Surah Al-Ma’idah. Its Translation is:

67.OMessenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and ifyou do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protectyou from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.

SurahAl-Ma’idah was revealed after the Hudaibiyah peace treaty in the end of 6 AH orin the beginning of 7 AH (after hijrah).
Beforethat the Companions rAa used to be worried about the safety of Muhammad sallaAllaho alaihi wa sallam and used to be present near him. When the above versewas revealed, the Prophet (Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him) came out ofhis tent and informed the Companions rAa about Allah’s promise and advised themto go (and leave him to Allah’s protection). So they went away. After that wedidn’t find any news about any injury to Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wasallam!!!

Aperson should study the Holy Quraan for guidance but he/she shouldn’t search itfor something against Allah’s Great Qualities. Otherwise his /her own ignorancewill get open to people in any way. Allah has power over every thing. Those whosearch the Holy Quraan for attacking Allah and Allah’s Prophet (Allah's Peaceand Blessings be upon him) should think about the verses 63 and 78 of the surahAl-Tawbah (pronounced as surah At-Tawbah). Their translation is:

63. Do they not know that whoever opposesAllah and His Messenger - that for him is the fire of Hell, wherein he willabide eternally? That is the great disgrace.


78. Did they not know that Allah knowstheir secrets and their private conversations and that Allah is the Knower ofthe unseen?
Reply

Abz2000
03-07-2016, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by nbegam
Bismi-Allahir-Rahmaanir-Raheem

According tothe Islamic history, The Final Prophet Muhammad (Allah's Peace and Blessings beupon him) was wounded twice! Once in Taa’-if before Hijra (migration toMadinah) when Allah Almighty sent to him salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam theangel of mountains with Jibreel alaihi salaam and gave him the authority toorder the angel to crush the people of Taa’if in between the two mountains, butthe Prophet (Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him) became patient and didn’torder the punishment. 2ndtime was in the Battle of Uhud when he salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam gotextensive injuries! After that Allah announced that Allah Almighty wouldprotect HIS Prophet (Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him) and thisannouncement came down from Heaven to Muhammad (Allah's Peace and Blessings beupon him) in the verse 67 of Surah Al-Ma’idah. Its Translation is:

67.OMessenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and ifyou do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protectyou from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.

SurahAl-Ma’idah was revealed after the Hudaibiyah peace treaty in the end of 6 AH orin the beginning of 7 AH (after hijrah).
Beforethat the Companions rAa used to be worried about the safety of Muhammad sallaAllaho alaihi wa sallam and used to be present near him. When the above versewas revealed, the Prophet (Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him) came out ofhis tent and informed the Companions rAa about Allah’s promise and advised themto go (and leave him to Allah’s protection). So they went away. After that wedidn’t find any news about any injury to Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wasallam!!!

Aperson should study the Holy Quraan for guidance but he/she shouldn’t search itfor something against Allah’s Great Qualities. Otherwise his /her own ignorancewill get open to people in any way. Allah has power over every thing. Those whosearch the Holy Quraan for attacking Allah and Allah’s Prophet (Allah's Peaceand Blessings be upon him) should think about the verses 63 and 78 of the surahAl-Tawbah (pronounced as surah At-Tawbah). Their translation is:

63. Do they not know that whoever opposesAllah and His Messenger - that for him is the fire of Hell, wherein he willabide eternally? That is the great disgrace.


78. Did they not know that Allah knowstheir secrets and their private conversations and that Allah is the Knower ofthe unseen?
I am aware of a clear Hadith which clearly demonstrates such an observation, it reported that the Prophet pbuh would call for volunteers to guard him at camp and that he (pbuh) later told them that it was no longer necessary, the Prophet pbuh demonstrated his trust in Allah but he also understood that there was an undecipherable relationship and difference with and between action and Qadr (trust in Allah and tie your camel), he pbuh would be guarded heavily on conquests, had the nephew of 'Urwa ibn Mas'ud standing as bodyguard at the talks of Al Hudaybiyyah, who was covered from head to toe in steel and would tap the hand of 'Urwa with the handle of his sword whenever 'Urwa would extend his hand to hold the blessed beard of the Prophet during conversation, and Al 'Abbas (ra) called the believers to guard the Messenger of Allah pbuh at Hunayn i believe? when they dispersed from around the Prophet pbuh at the sudden ambush and the people of Surah Al Baqarah were called, those who couldn't get their horses to urn around jumped off them and ran to guard the Prophet pbuh. He pbuh also is reported to have felt the effects of the poison administered by the jewish woman in his final days, the companions who compiled the Quran endeavoured to check and recheck and recheck again verses presented to them and did not expect it to all fall automatically into place, an effort was required.
Some may see this as a contradiction or feel confused, but Allah knows best how or why He does things the way He does despite His ability to send down a book from the sky that we can touch and i hope to follow the best guidance to the best of my sincere ability, innamaa 'alaina al jahd - wal ikhlaas anniyyah.

I believe i have nothing more to contribute to this thread and would avoid unnecessary dispute so please accept it as my final post.
Reply

AabiruSabeel
03-07-2016, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
I know theologically it's impossible from a faith perspective, but looking at the two emendations I quoted above, what do you make of the arguments themselves? On the appearance of things Hasab and al-musjill being the original words make a lot of sense, and the explanation of a simple scribal error seem rather convincing from an outsider point of view.
Linguistically and grammatically, Hasab and Sijill are perfect in their placement. Nobody can argue that.

Your question should actually be regarding the context. How is Hasab and Sijill contextually suitable?


In the first Ayah, Allah :swt: says,
(98) إِنَّكُمْ وَمَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ حَصَبُ جَهَنَّمَ أَنتُمْ لَهَا وَارِدُونَ
Indeed, you [disbelievers] and what you worship other than Allah are the firewood of Hell. You will be coming to [enter] it. [Al-Anbiyaa: 98]

The translators have translated Hasab as firewood or fuel based on its Tafseer, but as you have indicated, it also means gravel or pebbles. Contextually, there is nothing wrong with using pebbles because Allah :swt: says at other places:

And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful.
But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.
[Al-Baqarah: 23-24]

O you who have believed, protect yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is people and stones, over which are [appointed] angels, harsh and severe; they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them but do what they are commanded. [At-Tahreem: 6]

Originally Posted by Sojourn
The basic meaning of the verb hasaba is "to pelt with pebbles" or "to scatter pebbles." From this sense the lexicographers redefine it to mean "to throw pebbles (i.e., fuel) on a fire"; others limit it to fuel which is thrown into an oven, or used as kindling...
The author is wrong in assuming Hasabu Jahannama is a verb. In Arabic, Hasabu is noun and Hasaba is a verb. Hasabu Jahannama means pebbles of Hell.

As we can see above, the idols that they worship besides Allah will be the stones or pebbles of Hell. It perfectly fits the context.





Regarding the second Ayah, in which Allah :swt: says,
(104) يَوْمَ نَطْوِي السَّمَاءَ كَطَيِّ السِّجِلِّ لِلْكُتُبِ ۚ كَمَا بَدَأْنَا أَوَّلَ خَلْقٍ نُّعِيدُهُ ۚ وَعْدًا عَلَيْنَا ۚ إِنَّا كُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ
The Day when We will fold the heaven like the folding of a [written] sheet for the records. As We began the first creation, We will repeat it. [That is] a promise binding upon Us. Indeed, We will do it. [Al-Anbiyaa: 104]

I am not sure why is he even raising a doubt here. I have underlined the translation of the words Katayyis-Sijilli-lilkutub. Contextually, grammatically or linguistically, it is perfect in every sense.

Originally Posted by Sojourn
In 21:104 God describes how He is going to proceed on the last day: yawma natwi l-sama a ka-tayyi l-sijilli lil-kutubi, "The day on which we shall fold up the heavens as the sijill folds up the writings."

The meaning of sijill, a well-known word in Arabic, is "document," consequently the "document" could not do any folding or rolling up of other documents.
Again, the author, being an outsider to Arabic language, has made a mistake in assuming the meaning to be "as the sijill folds up the writings".

Katayyis-Sijill lilkutub means exactly as underlined above, like the folding of a written sheet for the records. It does not mean "as the sijill folds up the writing". You can see other translations that say:
(Muhsin Khan) like a scroll rolled up for books
(Yusuf Ali) like a scroll rolled up for books
(Shakir) like the rolling up of the scroll for writings

Personally, I feel Shakir's translation translates this part of the Ayah in a more better sense than others.

And Allah :swt: knows best.
Reply

OmAbdullah
03-07-2016, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
I am aware of a clear Hadith which clearly demonstrates such an observation, it reported that the Prophet pbuh would call for volunteers to guard him at camp and that he (pbuh) later told them that it was no longer necessary, the Prophet pbuh demonstrated his trust in Allah but he also understood that there was an undecipherable relationship and difference with and between action and Qadr (trust in Allah and tie your camel), he pbuh would be guarded heavily on conquests, had the nephew of 'Urwa ibn Mas'ud standing as bodyguard at the talks of Al Hudaybiyyah, who was covered from head to toe in steel and would tap the hand of 'Urwa with the handle of his sword whenever 'Urwa would extend his hand to hold the blessed beard of the Prophet during conversation, and Al 'Abbas (ra) called the believers to guard the Messenger of Allah pbuh at Hunayn i believe? when they dispersed from around the Prophet pbuh at the sudden ambush and the people of Surah Al Baqarah were called, those who couldn't get their horses to urn around jumped off them and ran to guard the Prophet pbuh. He pbuh also is reported to have felt the effects of the poison administered by the jewish woman in his final days, the companions who compiled the Quran endeavoured to check and recheck and recheck again verses presented to them and did not expect it to all fall automatically into place, an effort was required.
Some may see this as a contradiction or feel confused, but Allah knows best how or why He does things the way He does despite His ability to send down a book from the sky that we can touch and i hope to follow the best guidance to the best of my sincere ability, innamaa 'alaina al jahd - wal ikhlaas anniyyah.

I believe i have nothing more to contribute to this thread and would avoid unnecessary dispute so please accept it as my final post.

I really get very tired of useless discussions and arguments. If it was not for the sake of Allah I would have left answers to such posts. In fact this is not the matter of two persons in arguments but there may be many readers, Muslims and non-Muslims, reading these posts. If any writer brings wrong things about Allah, Allah's Messengers, Allah's Book or about Islam as a whole even by mistake, a large number of the readers, unknowingly, may go astray. Their faith about Allah will get disturbed and the sin will not only go to the mistake-maker but also to those who know the truth and keep quiet. So I have to explain the points although I am tired.

Qadar is right and the trust in Allah but tie the camel is also correct. But when Allah promised to protect Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam, then there was no need for the companions to do guarding. The time of Hudaibiyah treaty was before the revelation of the verse having Allah's promise to protect him.


The Yahoodi woman who had invited Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam and had poisoned the food for him, had cooked scapula (a bone near the upper arm of sheep/goat etc.). She knew that Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam liked to eat meat on the scapula bone. I have read /heard that when the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam sat to eat the food, the scapula spoke out, "Don't eat me, I am poisoned". So He salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam got up and didn't eat the food. There was no question of poisoning because he didn't eat from it.

I believe in this miraculous happening with my eyes closed and I feel great peace in my belief.

The compiling of the Holy Quraan was done by the Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam himself. This is another very nonsense story that the compiling was not done by Him and this story is made by the enemies. Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam had 40 scribes. So 40 copies of Quraan were written under his observation. He had prohibited the writing of any thing from him other than Quraan. When the Holy Quraan got completed, He put a complete copy with Hafsah rAa for future while the rest of the copies went to sahaabahs. No one should think that Allah sent the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam on such a great mission and then left the Book Quraan incomplete although it is the basic and No.1 source of Islam. Allah said in the sermon of the Hajjatul-wida (the last Hajj of the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam, "Alyawma akmaltu lakum deenakum----- " On this day I perfected your Deen for you---" The translation of the full verse can be seen in surah Al-Ma'idah verse 3.

When Allah perfected the religion then how can some say that the Quraan was left uncompiled. When more and more people were entering the fold of Islam more and more Quraans were needed. So Abu-Bakar rAa took the Quraan from Hafsah rAa and made more copies with great care due to fear of Allah. Even now every day more and more copies are made but now with the machines for making copies this work is quite easy. Still the responsible Muslims shall be careful due to the fear of Allah. And surely Allah will guard it against any corruption. During the khilafat of Uthman rAa the Islamic kingdom extended much more, so more Quraans were needed and were written on his order. Make it short, the quraan has reached us safe and preserved and shall remain preserved due to the Promise of Allah. In whatever way Allah preserved it, that is not my job to know. But here the argument is that a non-Muslim is attacking (due to his own ignorance which is proved above)the Promise of Allah to preserve the Holy Quraan and we all as Muslims are obligated to explain the things and make it clear to him that he is utterly wrong.

There was great wisdom in revealing the Qur'aanic verses and surahs little by little, from time to time according to necessity and circumstances. The mushrikeen had asked such question that why didn't the Quraan come down as a whole book, this question is answered thoroughly in this unique Book.
Reply

Insaanah
03-08-2016, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by nbegam
Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam had 40 scribes. So 40 copies of Quraan were written under his observation.
:salam: Sister, may I ask what your source is for this?

I did a brief course years ago, with reliable teachers and sources, and dug up an essay I had written on the collection of the Qur'aan, and this is the relevant part:

The Situation at the time of the Prophet’s death

The Qur’an had been memorised by the Prophet :saws: and his companions. Some of them had memorised all of it, and some had memorised most of it, completing their recitation shortly after his death.

The Qur’an was not written as a whole volume, but on various pieces of writing materials kept by different companions, but none of then had all of it. Some of them had written portions of it for their personal use.

Why the whole Qur’an was not and could not have been collected together as a whole during the lifetime of the Prophet :saws:


There are a number of reasons for this. The Qur’an was being constantly revealed right up until a few months before the Prophets death. The different passages were revealed on different occasions and in different circumstances, and they were thus put in different Surahs accordingly. The Prophet :saws: was constantly waiting for new verses to be revealed, which might be placed in different Surahs. Given the paucity of writing materials at the time, it would have been difficult to continuously revise the Qur’an and add verses into the middle of two existing verses etc.

Also some verses were abrogated and removed from the Qur’an completely. This constant addition and removal of verses is the major reason why it was not feasible during the Prophets lifetime to gather the Qur’an into one book. So the companions were more concerned with recording and memorising it correctly than compiling it into one book.
This does not imply that the Qur'an was not fully preserved, indeed the fact that it could be written and verses put in the correct order right up to the last verse revealed shortly before the death of the Prophet :saws: , show that it was part of the preservation.

This is also mentioned in the following sources:

Usool at Tafseer: The methodology of Qur'aanic explanation, by Dr Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips, Dar al Fatah, 1997, Sharjah, UAE

An Introduction to Understanding the Qur’an, by Sayyid Abul A’la Maududi. Translated by Zafar Ishaque Ansari. Delhi: Markazi Maktaba Islami Publishers 1997.

An Introduction to the Qur’an, by Suhaib Hasan. London: Al-Quran Society 2000

Sheikh Saalih al Munajjid at islamqa.com https://islamqa.info/en/10012
Reply

OmAbdullah
03-08-2016, 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
:salam: Sister, may I ask what your source is for this?

I did a brief course years ago, with reliable teachers and sources, and dug up an essay I had written on the collection of the Qur'aan, and this is the relevant part:



This does not imply that the Qur'an was not fully preserved, indeed the fact that it could be written and verses put in the correct order right up to the last verse revealed shortly before the death of the Prophet :saws: , show that it was part of the preservation.

This is also mentioned in the following sources:

Usool at Tafseer: The methodology of Qur'aanic explanation, by Dr Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips, Dar al Fatah, 1997, Sharjah, UAE

An Introduction to Understanding the Qur’an, by Sayyid Abul A’la Maududi. Translated by Zafar Ishaque Ansari. Delhi: Markazi Maktaba Islami Publishers 1997.

An Introduction to the Qur’an, by Suhaib Hasan. London: Al-Quran Society 2000

Sheikh Saalih al Munajjid at islamqa.com https://islamqa.info/en/10012
Dear Sister,
:salam:

I have taken the following from "Ahmad Von Denffer Ulum al-Quraan".

The Qur'an written during the Prophet's Lifetime


There is no doubt that the Qur'an was not only transmitted orally by many Muslims who had learned parts or the whole of
it, but that it was also written down during the lifetime of the Prophet.
The well-known report about 'Umar's conversion shows that large passages of the revelation had already been written down even at a very early time, in Makka, long before the hijra, when the Prophet was still in the house of Arqam.
'
Umar had set out to kill the Prophet Muhammad, when somebody informed him that Islam had already
spread into his own family and pointed out to him that his brother-in-law, his nephew and his sister had
all become Muslims. 'Umar went to the house of his sister and found her together with her husband and
another Muslim. A dispute arose and 'Umar violently attacked both his brother-in-law and his own sister.
'When he did that they said to him "Yes, we are Muslims and we believe in God and His apostle and you
can do what you like". When 'Umar saw the blood on his sister, he was sorry for what he had done and
turned back and said to his sister, 'Give me this sheet which I heard you reading just now so that I may
see just what it is which Muhammad has brought', for 'Umar could write. When he said that, his sister
replied that she was afraid to trust him with it. 'Do not be afraid', he said and he swore by his gods that
he would return it when he had read it. When he said that, she had hopes that he would become a
Muslim and said to him, 'My brother, you are unclean in your polytheism and only the clean may touch it'.
So 'Umar rose and washed himself and she gave him the page in which was Taha and when he had read
the beginning he said 'How fine and noble is this speech ..." [Ibn Hisham, pp. 156-7.]


The Qur'an Dictated by the Prophet

The Qur'an was not only written down by those Companions who did so on their own initiative. Indeed, the Prophet, when a revelation came, called for the scribe and dictated to him. The Prophet while in Madina had several such scribes,

[M. M. A'zami, in his book Kuttab al-Nabi (Beirut, 1393/1974) mentions 48 persons who used to write for the Prophet.]
among whom Zaid bin Thabit was very prominent.

Narrated al-Bara': There was revealed 'Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those
who strive and fight in the cause of Allah' (4: 95). The Prophet said:

'Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the ink pot and the scapula bone (or the scapula bone and the ink pot).' Then he said:
'Write: Not equal are those believers ... [Bukhari, VI, No. 512; also VI, No. 116-18.]

It is also reported that material upon which the revelation had been written down was kept in the house of the Prophet.
[Suyuti, Itqan, I, p. 58.]

Written during the Prophet's Lifetime

Another report informs us that when people came to Madina to learn about Islam, they were provided with 'copies of the chapters of the Qur'an, to read and learn them by heart'. [Hamidullah, M.: Sahifa Hammam ibn Munabbih, Paris, 1979, p.
64.]

Further evidence for the existence of the Qur'an as a written document during the lifetime of the Prophet comes from the following account:

'Abd Allah b. Abu Bakr b. Hazm reported:

The book written by the apostle of Allah for 'Amr b. Hazm
contained also this that no man should touch the Qur'an without ablution.' [Muwatta', No. 462.]
Malik said: And no one should carry the mushaf by its strap, nor on a pillow, unless he is clean. And even
if this be allowed to carry it in its cover, it is not disliked, if there is not in the two hands which carry it, something polluting the mushaf, but it is disliked for the one who carries it, and he is not clean, in honour to the Qur'an and respect to it. Malik said:

The best I heard about this is the verse

'None shall touch it but those who are clean' (56: 79).' [Muwatta', Arabic, p. 204.]

The commentary to the muwatta' explains that the book referred to as written by the Prophet (which means of course written upon his instruction) was sent with some Muslims for instruction in Islam of the people of Yemen. [Muwatta',
Arabic, p. 204.]


In fact the Qur'anic verse 56: 79, read in context, clearly explains that the Qur'an is available to those who receive instruction by revelation, in the form of a book or a piece of writing:

'... this is indeed a Qur'an most honourable, in a book (kitab) well guarded, which none shall touch but those who are clean: a revelation from the Lord of the worlds' (56: 77-80).

The same fact, i.e. that the Qur'an did exist as a written document in the lifetime of the Prophet is proved by the
following ahadith:

From Ibn 'Umar: ... 'The messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: "Do not take the Qur'an on a
journey with you, for I am afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the enemy". [Muslim, III, No. 4609,
also 4607, 4608; Bukhari, IV, No. 233.]

The correctness of the assumption that the reference is to a written document is supported by one of the transmitters:

Ayyub (i. e. one of the narrators in the chain of transmission of this report) said: The enemy may seize it and may quarrel with you over it. [Muslim, III, No. 4609.]

Furthermore, the chapter-heading used by Bukhan for the section, (which usually contains additional information,)
explains:

'Ibn 'Umar said: No doubt the Prophet and his Companions travelled in the land of the enemy and they
knew the Qur'an then.' [i.e. they knew that the Quran was carried - as a scripture - by the Muslims.
Bukhan, IV, p. 146, Ch. 129.]

Collection of Revelation during the Prophet's Lifetime

During his last pilgrimage, at the sermon which he gave to the large gathering of Muslims, the Prophet said: 'I have left with you something which if you will hold fast to it you will never fall into error- a plain indication, the book of God and the practice of his prophet. [Ibn Hisham, p. 651.]


This advice from the Prophet to the Muslims implies that the revelation was available as kitab (writing) before his death,
for otherwise he would have referred to it in some other term.

From other reports also, we can conclude that the Prophet himself took care of the actual arrangement of the revelation, when it was written down.


Zaid is reported to have said:

'We used to compile the Qur'an from small scraps in the presence of the Apostle.' [Itqan, I, p. 99; Salih,
p.69.]
'Uthman said, that in later days, the Prophet 'used to, when something was revealed to him, call someone from among those who used to write for him and said: Place these ayat in the sura, in which this and this is mentioned, and when (only) one aya was revealed to him, he said: Place this aya in the sura in which this and this is mentioned'. [Jeffery, A.:
Materials for the history of the text of the qura'n, (incl. Kitab al-masahif by Ibn Abi Dawud (abbr. as Ibn Abi Dawud,
masahif) Leiden, 1937, p. 31.]

This indicates that not only was the revelation written down during the lifetime of the Prophet, but that he himself gave instructions for the arrangement of the material. According to some other reports, it is also clear, that this proper arrangement and order of the ayat was well known to the Companions of the Prophet, and they were not prepared to tamper with it.


'Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair: I said to 'Uthman "This verse which is in Sura al-Baqara: 'those of you who die
and leave wives behind ... without turning them out' has been abrogated by another verse. Why then do
you write it in the Qur'an?" 'Uthman said: Leave it (where it is) O son of my brother, for I will not shift
anything of it (i . e. the Qur'an) from its original position.' [Bukhari, VI. No. 60.]

Similarly quite a number of reports mention the various Suras by their names or beginnings. Two examples may suffice to make this point:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet used to recite the following in the Fajr prayer of Friday: Alif Lam Mim
Tanzil (Sajda) (32) and Hal-ata 'ala-l-Insani (al-dahr) (76). [Bukhari, II, No. 16.]

Abu Huraira said: God's messenger recited in both rak'as of the dawn prayer: "Say O unbelievers (99)
and Say, He is God, one God (112).' [Robson, J. (transl.): Mishkat al Masabih, Lahore, 1963, I, pp. 172-3
- Tabrizi: Mishkatal-masabih, Beirut, 1961, I, No. 842.]

The order and arrangement was of course well known to the Muslims due to the daily recitation of the Qur'an in the
prayers at the mosque of the Prophet and at other places.

Finally there are three ahadith in Sahih Bukhari, informing us that the Angel Gabriel used to recite the Qur'an with the Prophet once a year, but he recited it twice with him in the year he died. The Prophet used to stay in i'tikaf for ten days every year (in the month of Ramad. an), but in the year of his death, he stayed in i'tikaf for twenty days. [Bukhari, VI, No. 520; see also Nos. 518, 519.]

We can therefore distinguish the following measures which ensured the collection of the revelation in writing during the lifetime of the Prophet:

 Revelation used to be written down even in the very early days of the Prophet's call.
 In Madina, the Prophet had several persons who wrote down revelation when it was revealed.
 The Prophet himself instructed his scribes as to where the different revealed verses should be placed,
and thus determined the order and arrangement.
 This order and arrangement was well known to the Muslims and strictly observed by them.
 The Angel Gabriel went through all the revelation with Muhammad each year in Ramadan, and went
through it twice in the year the Prophet died.
 There are numerous reports about the existence of the written Qur'an - in the form of a book or piece of
writing (kitab) during the lifetime of the Prophet.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________

(The above statement is from the Ulum al-Quraan as mentioned at the top.)


My principle is that when I get such a clear statement from the scholars of the past and I observe that it is in accordance with the Holy Quraan, then I don’t follow the statements in contradiction to it. In fact the Holy Quraan is the greatest proof as Allah Almighty said in the surah Al-Qiyaamah verse 17

17. It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:

Also we must use our wisdom, can Allah’s work be so disorganized that Allah left such important part of the mission incomplete? No, No, not at all. This is the false statements of the enemies who try a lot to prove that Quraan is not preserved.

Again I tell you that I am an aged person. When I was very young, I had bought a set of 6 volumes of the Tafheemul-Quraan. In the first volume there was a long introduction in which, I remember, was written that Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam put one complete copy of the Holy Quraan with Hafsah rAa. Later Abu Bakar Siddeeq and Uthman rAa had taken the same copy to write more copies exactly like it, and then they returned that copy to her. But now I am surprised that many statements in the commentary in new editions disappeared and also this statement about the compiling of the Holy Quraan is changed. This means that the enemies sitting among us in the shape of Muslims are working for the unbeliever enemies to attack the truth of the Holy Quraan. But this is the Book of Allah and Allah shall certainly protect it.
Reply

talibilm
03-09-2016, 05:25 AM
Originally Posted by nbegam
Dear Sister,
:salam:

I have taken the following from "Ahmad Von Denffer Ulum al-Quraan".

The Qur'an written during the Prophet's Lifetime


There is no doubt that the Qur'an was not only transmitted orally by many Muslims who had learned parts or the whole of
it, but that it was also written down during the lifetime of the Prophet.
The well-known report about 'Umar's conversion shows that large passages of the revelation had already been written down even at a very early time, in Makka, long before the hijra, when the Prophet was still in the house of Arqam.
'
Umar had set out to kill the Prophet Muhammad, when somebody informed him that Islam had already spread into his own family and pointed out to him that his brother-in-law, his nephew and his sister had all become Muslims. 'Umar went to the house of his sister and found her together with her husband andanother Muslim. A dispute arose and 'Umar violently attacked both his brother-in-law and his own sister.'When he did that they said to him "Yes, we are Muslims and we believe in God and His apostle and you can do what you like". When 'Umar saw the blood on his sister, he was sorry for what he had done andturned back and said to his sister, 'Give me this sheet which I heard you reading just now so that I may see just what it is which Muhammad has brought', for 'Umar could write. When he said that, his sister replied that she was afraid to trust him with it. 'Do not be afraid', he said and he swore by his gods that he would return it when he had read it. When he said that, she had hopes that he would become a Muslim and said to him, 'My brother, you are unclean in your polytheism and only the clean may touch it'.So 'Umar rose and washed himself and she gave him the page in which was Taha and when he had read the beginning he said 'How fine and noble is this speech ..." [Ibn Hisham, pp. 156-7.]


The Qur'an Dictated by the Prophet

The Qur'an was not only written down by those Companions who did so on their own initiative. Indeed, the Prophet, when a revelation came, called for the scribe and dictated to him. The Prophet while in Madina had several such scribes,

[M. M. A'zami, in his book Kuttab al-Nabi (Beirut, 1393/1974) mentions 48 persons who used to write for the Prophet.] among whom Zaid bin Thabit was very prominent.

Narrated al-Bara': There was revealed 'Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those
who strive and fight in the cause of Allah' (4: 95). The Prophet said:

'Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the ink pot and the scapula bone (or the scapula bone and the ink pot).' Then he said:'Write: Not equal are those believers ... [Bukhari, VI, No. 512; also VI, No. 116-18.]

It is also reported that material upon which the revelation had been written down was kept in the house of the Prophet.
[Suyuti, Itqan, I, p. 58.]

Written during the Prophet's Lifetime

Another report informs us that when people came to Madina to learn about Islam, they were provided with 'copies of the chapters of the Qur'an, to read and learn them by heart'. [Hamidullah, M.: Sahifa Hammam ibn Munabbih, Paris, 1979, p.
64.]

Further evidence for the existence of the Qur'an as a written document during the lifetime of the Prophet comes from the following account:

'Abd Allah b. Abu Bakr b. Hazm reported:

The book written by the apostle of Allah for 'Amr b. Hazm
contained also this that no man should touch the Qur'an without ablution.' [Muwatta', No. 462.]
Malik said: And no one should carry the mushaf by its strap, nor on a pillow, unless he is clean. And even
if this be allowed to carry it in its cover, it is not disliked, if there is not in the two hands which carry it, something polluting the mushaf, but it is disliked for the one who carries it, and he is not clean, in honour to the Qur'an and respect to it. Malik said:

The best I heard about this is the verse

'None shall touch it but those who are clean' (56: 79).' [Muwatta', Arabic, p. 204.]

The commentary to the muwatta' explains that the book referred to as written by the Prophet (which means of course written upon his instruction) was sent with some Muslims for instruction in Islam of the people of Yemen. [Muwatta',
Arabic, p. 204.]


In fact the Qur'anic verse 56: 79, read in context, clearly explains that the Qur'an is available to those who receive instruction by revelation, in the form of a book or a piece of writing:

'... this is indeed a Qur'an most honourable, in a book (kitab) well guarded, which none shall touch but those who are clean: a revelation from the Lord of the worlds' (56: 77-80).

The same fact, i.e. that the Qur'an did exist as a written document in the lifetime of the Prophet is proved by the
following ahadith:

From Ibn 'Umar: ... 'The messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: "Do not take the Qur'an on a
journey with you, for
I am afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the enemy". [Muslim, III, No. 4609,
also 4607, 4608; Bukhari, IV, No. 233.]

The correctness of the assumption that the reference is to a written document is supported by one of the transmitters:

Ayyub (i. e. one of the narrators in the chain of transmission of this report) said: The enemy may seize it and may quarrel with you over it. [Muslim, III, No. 4609.]

Furthermore, the chapter-heading used by Bukhan for the section, (which usually contains additional information,)
explains:

'Ibn 'Umar said: No doubt the Prophet and his Companions travelled in the land of the enemy and they
knew the Qur'an then.' [i.e. they knew that the Quran was carried - as a scripture - by the Muslims.
Bukhan, IV, p. 146, Ch. 129.]

Collection of Revelation during the Prophet's Lifetime

During his last pilgrimage, at the sermon which he gave to the large gathering of Muslims, the Prophet said: 'I have left with you something which if you will hold fast to it you will never fall into error- a plain indication, the book of God and the practice of his prophet. [Ibn Hisham, p. 651.]


This advice from the Prophet to the Muslims implies that the revelation was available as kitab (writing) before his death,
for otherwise he would have referred to it in some other term.

From other reports also, we can conclude that the Prophet himself took care of the actual arrangement of the revelation, when it was written down.


Zaid is reported to have said:

'We used to compile the Qur'an from small scraps in the presence of the Apostle.' [Itqan, I, p. 99; Salih,
p.69.]
'Uthman said, that in later days, the Prophet 'used to, when something was revealed to him, call someone from among those who used to write for him and said: Place these ayat in the sura, in which this and this is mentioned, and when (only) one aya was revealed to him, he said: Place this aya in the sura in which this and this is mentioned'. [Jeffery, A.:
Materials for the history of the text of the qura'n, (incl. Kitab al-masahif by Ibn Abi Dawud (abbr. as Ibn Abi Dawud,
masahif) Leiden, 1937, p. 31.]

This indicates that not only was the revelation written down during the lifetime of the Prophet, but that he himself gave instructions for the arrangement of the material. According to some other reports, it is also clear, that this proper arrangement and order of the ayat was well known to the Companions of the Prophet, and they were not prepared to tamper with it.


'Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair: I said to 'Uthman "This verse which is in Sura al-Baqara: 'those of you who die
and leave wives behind ... without turning them out' has been abrogated by another verse. Why then do
you write it in the Qur'an?" 'Uthman said: Leave it (where it is) O son of my brother, for I will not shift
anything of it (i . e. the Qur'an) from its original position.'
[Bukhari, VI. No. 60.]

Similarly quite a number of reports mention the various Suras by their names or beginnings. Two examples may suffice to make this point:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet used to recite the following in the Fajr prayer of Friday: Alif Lam Mim
Tanzil (Sajda) (32) and Hal-ata 'ala-l-Insani (al-dahr) (76). [Bukhari, II, No. 16.]

Abu Huraira said: God's messenger recited in both rak'as of the dawn prayer: "Say O unbelievers (99)
and Say, He is God, one God (112).' [Robson, J. (transl.): Mishkat al Masabih, Lahore, 1963, I, pp. 172-3
- Tabrizi: Mishkatal-masabih, Beirut, 1961, I, No. 842.]

The order and arrangement was of course well known to the Muslims due to the daily recitation of the Qur'an in the
prayers at the mosque of the Prophet and at other places.

Finally there are three ahadith in Sahih Bukhari, informing us that the Angel Gabriel used to recite the Qur'an with the Prophet once a year, but he recited it twice with him in the year he died. The Prophet used to stay in i'tikaf for ten days every year (in the month of Ramad. an), but in the year of his death, he stayed in i'tikaf for twenty days. [Bukhari, VI, No. 520; see also Nos. 518, 519.]

We can therefore distinguish the following measures which ensured the collection of the revelation in writing during the lifetime of the Prophet:

 Revelation used to be written down even in the very early days of the Prophet's call.
 In Madina, the Prophet had several persons who wrote down revelation when it was revealed.
 The Prophet himself instructed his scribes as to where the different revealed verses should be placed,
and thus determined the order and arrangement.
 This order and arrangement was well known to the Muslims and strictly observed by them.
 The Angel Gabriel went through all the revelation with Muhammad each year in Ramadan, and went
through it twice in the year the Prophet died.
 There are numerous reports about the existence of the written Qur'an - in the form of a book or piece of
writing (kitab) during the lifetime of the Prophet.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________

(The above statement is from the Ulum al-Quraan as mentioned at the top.)


My principle is that when I get such a clear statement from the scholars of the past and I observe that it is in accordance with the Holy Quraan, then I don’t follow the statements in contradiction to it. In fact the Holy Quraan is the greatest proof as Allah Almighty said in the surah Al-Qiyaamah verse 17

17. It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:

Also we must use our wisdom, can Allah’s work be so disorganized that Allah left such important part of the mission incomplete? No, No, not at all. This is the false statements of the enemies who try a lot to prove that Quraan is not preserved.

Again I tell you that I am an aged person. When I was very young, I had bought a set of 6 volumes of the Tafheemul-Quraan. In the first volume there was a long introduction in which, I remember, was written that Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam put one complete copy of the Holy Quraan with Hafsah rAa. Later Abu Bakar Siddeeq and Uthman rAa had taken the same copy to write more copies exactly like it, and then they returned that copy to her. But now I am surprised that many statements in the commentary in new editions disappeared and also this statement about the compiling of the Holy Quraan is changed. This means that the enemies sitting among us in the shape of Muslims are working for the unbeliever enemies to attack the truth of the Holy Quraan. But this is the Book of Allah and Allah shall certainly protect it.
:salam: Sister. Jazakallah for this valuable post which clearly shows that the Noble Quran was existing in the written form . But do you have the hadith reference for the Noble Quran being kept with Hafsa (R-anha ) while Prophet :saws: was still present with them ? Though we know Caliph Abu Bakr (R anhu) left a copy with her.

What are your views regarding the hadiths saying the compilation of the Noble Quran during Caliph Abu Bakr (R _ anhu) under Zaid Bin Thabbit (R anhu) after the battle of Yamama where 70 hufadh from Ansars were martyred. ?

And I do agree by your claims that enemies of Islam are among Muslims themselves by the virtue of these hadiths

Sayyidina lmran ibn Husayn (RA) reported that Allah’s Messenger said, The best of my ummah is the generation to which 1 have sent, then they who will follow them.’ The narrator said, ‘And I do not remember if he mentioned the third (generation) or not, “After that’, the Prophet (SAW) said, “A people will come who will voluntarily give testimony, they will commit treachery and will not be trustworthy. They will be corpulent, generally.
[Bukhari 2651]

A time will come when the hypocrites will live secretly among you, and the faithful will try to live their religion in secret among others.(Agreed upon)



Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 60 :: Hadith 149
Narrated Ibn Abbas: Allah's Apostle delivered a sermon and said, "O people! You will be gathered before Allah bare-footed, naked and not circumcised." Then (quoting Quran) he said:-- "As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it. A promise We have undertaken: Truly we shall do it.." (21.104)
The Prophet then said, "The first of the human beings to be dressed on the Day of Resurrection, will be Abraham. Lo! Some men from my followers will be brought and then (the angels) will drive them to the left side (Hell-Fire). I will say. 'O my Lord! (They are) my companions!' Then a reply will come (from Almighty), 'You do not know what they did after you.' I will say as the pious slave (the Prophet Jesus) said: And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them. When You took me up. You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to all things.' (5.117) Then it will be said, "These people have continued to be apostates since you left them."

So its important as you say to be careful and see real time historical incidents
during Prophet :saws: before coming to any conclusions because we know Actions of Prophet :saws: and Sahabas and the tabieens
DISPLAYS THE TRUTH more than spoken words.

Jazakallah Khair
Reply

talibilm
03-10-2016, 06:13 AM
EDIT : Correction to the above post # 44

Originally Posted by nbegam
Also we must use our wisdom, can Allah’s work be so disorganized that Allah left such important part of the mission incomplete? No, No, not at all. This is the false statements of the enemies who try a lot to prove that Quraan is not preserved.

Again I tell you that I am an aged person. When I was very young, I had bought a set of 6 volumes of the Tafheemul-Quraan. In the first volume there was a long introduction in which, I remember, was written that Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam put one complete copy of the Holy Quraan with Hafsah rAa. Later Abu Bakar Siddeeq and Uthman rAa had taken the same copy to write more copies exactly like it, and then they returned that copy to her. But now I am surprised that many statements in the commentary in new editions disappeared and also this statement about the compiling of the Holy Quraan is changed. This means that the enemies sitting among us in the shape of Muslims are working for the unbeliever enemies to attack the truth of the Holy Quraan. But this is the Book of Allah and Allah shall certainly protect it.
I would like to rectify an error regarding the 70 ansars killed in battle of Al-Yamama whom I had MISTAKENLY referred all of them as Huffadh (plural of Hafiz or memorizers of Noble Quran) (Asthaugfirullah, Ameen ) whereas the hadith which I used (listed below) does not refer all of them as Huffadh but only says that number of 70 from The Ansars or Medinites but DOES NOT POINT THEM AS Huffadh. Some Apologetics exaggerate this figure to 700 huffadh for which i had not found any sahih hadith reference, yet.


Bukhari :: Book 5 :: Volume 59 :: Hadith 405

Narrated Qatada:
We do not know of any tribe amongst the 'Arab tribes who lost more martyrs than Al-Ansar, and they will have superiority on the Day of Resurrection. Anas bin Malik told us that seventy from the Ansar were martyred on the day of Uhud, and seventy on the day (of the battle of) Bir Ma'una, and seventy on the day of Al Yamama Anas added, "The battle of Bir Ma'una took place during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and the battle of Al- Yamama, during the caliphate of Abu Bakr, and it was the day when Musailamah Al-Kadhdhab was killed."
Reply

Insaanah
03-10-2016, 08:13 PM
:salam: respected Aunty,

Originally Posted by nbegam
This advice from the Prophet to the Muslims implies that the revelation was available as kitab (writing) before his death,
for otherwise he would have referred to it in some other term.
Originally Posted by nbegam
There are numerous reports about the existence of the written Qur'an - in the form of a book or piece of
writing (kitab) during the lifetime of the Prophet.
Aunty, nobody is disputing that the Qur'an was written during the lifetime of the Prophet :saws: . What we are talking about is all of the writings being collected as one complete book in one volume.

For example, the beginning of Surah al Baqarah, says "this is the book" when the Quran hadn't finished being revealed. It was referred to as the Kitaab, even then.

Originally Posted by nbegam
From Ibn 'Umar: ... 'The messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: "Do not take the Qur'an on a
journey with you, for I am afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the enemy". [Muslim, III, No. 4609,
also 4607, 4608; Bukhari, IV, No. 233.]
We need to know the back ground of when this was said by the Prophet :saws:. For this to imply that the complete Qur'an had been already collected as a finished volume, it had to have been said just before his death. If it was said before that, it would have been referring to whatever was revealed up to then, and now would be referring to the whole book we have with us.

Originally Posted by nbegam
When I was very young, I had bought a set of 6 volumes of the Tafheemul-Quraan. In the first volume there was a long introduction in which, I remember, was written that Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam put one complete copy of the Holy Quraan with Hafsah rAa. Later Abu Bakar Siddeeq and Uthman rAa had taken the same copy to write more copies exactly like it, and then they returned that copy to her. But now I am surprised that many statements in the commentary in new editions disappeared and also this statement about the compiling of the Holy Quraan is changed. This means that the enemies sitting among us in the shape of Muslims are working for the unbeliever enemies to attack the truth of the Holy Quraan.
Aunty, we need to be careful before thinking of Muslims brothers and sisters of as enemies of Islam. What was in the English source above was faithfully translated by the translator from the Urdu text. Do you read Urdu? If so, this is a relevant part of the Urdu from the introduction to Tafheemul Qur'an (you might have to wait a while for the pictures to load - there are four of them):









As far as I know, there have just been reprints, but no editions.

This, as far as I know, is also the view of the majority of reliable scholars, based on accurate evidence.

Wallaahu ta'aalaa a'lam.
Reply

Insaanah
03-11-2016, 06:24 PM
:salam:

Also, see the following from a well-known book which seems well researched and based on authentic sources and correct interpretations:

Though the Prophet :saws: enlisted all possible measures to preserve the Qur'an, he did not bind all the suras together into one master volume, as evidenced by Zaid bin Thabit's statement that,

"The Prophet :saws: was taken [from this life] whilst the Qur'an had not yet been gathered into a book."

Ibn Hajar, FathulBari, ix:12; see also al-Bukhari, Sahih Jami al-Qur'an, hadith no. 4986.

Note the usage of the word 'gathered' rather than 'written'. Commenting on this, al-Khattabi says, "This quote refers to [the lack of] a specific book with specific traits. The Qur'an had indeed been written down in its entirety during the Prophet's lifetime, but had not been collected together [...]

Setting up a master volume might have proved challenging; any divine naskh (abrogation) revealed subsequently, affecting the legal provisions or wordings of certain verses, would have required proper inclusion. And a loose page format greatly simplified the insertion of new verses and new suras, for the revelations did not cease until a short time before the Prophet's death. But with his death the wahy ended forever: there would be no more verses, abrogations or rearrangements, so that the situation lent itself perfectly for the compilation of the Qur'an into a single,unified volume. No hesitation was felt in arriving at this decision; prudence compelled the community to hasten in this task, and Allah guided the Companions to serve the Qur'an in such fashion as to fulfil His promise of forever preserving His Book,

"We have, without doubt, sent down the message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."
Qur'an 15:9
From: A History of the Qur'anic Text, from Revelation to Compilation, by Muhammad Mustafa al A'zami

PDF available here:

http://www.islamicbulletin.org/free_...ranic_text.pdf

Also here: https://www.kalamullah.com/history-o...anic-text.html
Reply

OmAbdullah
03-11-2016, 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by talibilm
:salam: Sister. Jazakallah for this valuable post which clearly shows that the Noble Quran was existing in the written form . But do you have the hadith reference for the Noble Quran being kept with Hafsa (R-anha ) while Prophet :saws: was still present with them ? Though we know Caliph Abu Bakr (R anhu) left a copy with her.

What are your views regarding the hadiths saying the compilation of the Noble Quran during Caliph Abu Bakr (R _ anhu) under Zaid Bin Thabbit (R anhu) after the battle of Yamama where 70 hufadh from Ansars were martyred. ?

And I do agree by your claims that enemies of Islam are among Muslims themselves by the virtue of these hadiths

Sayyidina lmran ibn Husayn (RA) reported that Allah’s Messenger said, The best of my ummah is the generation to which 1 have sent, then they who will follow them.’ The narrator said, ‘And I do not remember if he mentioned the third (generation) or not, “After that’, the Prophet (SAW) said, “A people will come who will voluntarily give testimony, they will commit treachery and will not be trustworthy. They will be corpulent, generally.
[Bukhari 2651]

A time will come when the hypocrites will live secretly among you, and the faithful will try to live their religion in secret among others.(Agreed upon)



Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 60 :: Hadith 149
Narrated Ibn Abbas: Allah's Apostle delivered a sermon and said, "O people! You will be gathered before Allah bare-footed, naked and not circumcised." Then (quoting Quran) he said:-- "As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it. A promise We have undertaken: Truly we shall do it.." (21.104)
The Prophet then said, "The first of the human beings to be dressed on the Day of Resurrection, will be Abraham. Lo! Some men from my followers will be brought and then (the angels) will drive them to the left side (Hell-Fire). I will say. 'O my Lord! (They are) my companions!' Then a reply will come (from Almighty), 'You do not know what they did after you.' I will say as the pious slave (the Prophet Jesus) said: And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them. When You took me up. You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to all things.' (5.117) Then it will be said, "These people have continued to be apostates since you left them."

So its important as you say to be careful and see real time historical incidents
during Prophet :saws: before coming to any conclusions because we know Actions of Prophet :saws: and Sahabas and the tabieens
DISPLAYS THE TRUTH more than spoken words.

Jazakallah Khair

وعليكم السلام و رحمة الله و بركاته

I am thankful and jazaaka Allaho khaira

As I mentioned in my last post, I had read it in an old edition of the Tafheemul-Quraan. I am sad to see that the old edition is not available now. Once an imam, in a sermon, said that we should avoid new books, internet and new scholars for the knowledge of Islam because now there are many fitnahs. I do agree with him, may Allah give him great reward for this sincere advice.


I am posting this Hadeeth of the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam both in English and Arabic for proof.

تركت فيكم ما إن تمسكتم به لن تضلوا بعدي أبداَ كتاب الله و سنتي

رواه مسلم

Translation:

I am leaving behind Allah's Book and my Sunnah. You will never be astray after me, as long as you hold fast to these two.

The Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam had said these words in his last sermon. I stand by these words as a single person and believe that he salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam left complete Quraan (complete in all aspects). Please remember that the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam didn't die suddenly leaving incomplete work. When his life span was completed, Allah sent him angel who asked him whether he wanted to live or go. He himself chose going from this world and that was after the absolute perfection of his work/mission!!!
Reply

OmAbdullah
03-11-2016, 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
:salam: respected Aunty,


Aunty, nobody is disputing that the Qur'an was written during the lifetime of the Prophet :saws: . What we are talking about is all of the writings being collected as one complete book in one volume.
First you disputed about the number of the scribes. That was your disputing about the writing of the Full Quraan in the life of the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam. Those who claim that it was compiled later, do not have a single statement to stand by strongly. This is because lie has no legs to stand upon. They say that Umar rAa was worried about the death of the hufaaz. Also they say that they took some copies from the sahaabah and some they asked from the hufaaz. This is a clear proof that they do not believe in writing of complete Quraan in the life of the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam, and unfortunately, you (in my opinion a strong Muslimah) are standing by their side. Remember, that after the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam, the Quraan was not in need of the hufaaz.

For example, the beginning of Surah al Baqarah, says "this is the book" when the Quran hadn't finished being revealed. It was referred to as the Kitaab, even then.

We need to know the back ground of when this was said by the Prophet :saws:. For this to imply that the complete Qur'an had been already collected as a finished volume, it had to have been said just before his death.

I am posting this Hadeeth of the Prophet salla Allahoalaihi wa sallam both in English and Arabic for proof.

تركت فيكم ماإن تمسكتم به لن تضلوا بعدي أبداَ كتاب الله و سنتي

رواه مسلم

Translation:

I am leaving behind Allah's Book and my Sunnah. You will never be astray after me, as long as you hold fast to these two.

The Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam had said these words in his last sermon. I stand by these words as a single person and believe that he salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam left complete Quraan (complete in all aspects). Remember that the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam didn't die suddenly leaving incomplete work. When his life span was completed, Allah sent him angel who asked him whether he wanted to live or go. He himself chose going from this world and that was after the absolute perfection of his work/mission!!!

Also you should remember that the statement which I posted for your satisfaction, was not from me, but it was from the "Ulum Al-Quraan by Ahmad Von Denffer", he also took it from the ahaadeeth and Seerah books like Serah Ibn. Hisham. He has given the names of all the sources.



Aunty, we need to be careful before thinking of Muslims brothers and sisters of as enemies of Islam. What was in the English source above was faithfully translated by the translator from the Urdu text. Do you read Urdu? If so, this is a relevant part of the Urdu from the introduction to Tafheemul Qur'an (you might have to wait a while for the pictures to load - there are four of them):
Daughter of my sister,

About the enemies in the shape of Muslims, you should read the post 44 of this thread, may Allah bless the brother who has faithfully given the ahaadeeth of the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam about the munaafiqeen.

I say that today's munaafiqeen can be the teachers of A -bin Ubbayyah. If he could accuse Ayishah rAa. then they are falsely accusing Allah and Allah's Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam. They are the ones who have harmed this ummah a lot.

Also I remind every one that writing and compiling at the time of the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam was not easy and could not be as perfect as is now. Just imagine. How they wrote the whole Quraan on flat bones and or skin/leather sheets. How big that Quraan would be!!! Then at that time how could they fix all sheets of leather and other things. Allaho aalam, I think it may be by binding all sheets with strings of cloth or ropes. But when the scholars accepted that the whole Quraan was written and put in complete order by the Prophet salla Allaho Alaihi wa sallam, and you also accept it, then what is left?


Imagine that a book is written by you, and you have numbered the pages and named the chapters, then you arranged all pages and chapters in complete order. What is left? That is a perfect book. Today, due to so many equipment, you can fix it strongly also because the book volume is so small. But at that time, irregular shape and large size of that Book! It was really very hard work which the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam and his companions rAa did with the help of Allah and even after him, the companions made more and more copies, later when paper was produced, some great servants wrote it with a wooden big qalam on the papers. Still later it was made like it is today with the machines and copiers etc. So it is very clear that all this preservation is done by the help of Allah only. But the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam was the very first to make it perfectly right with the sources available at that time!!!

I have seen a Book of Quraan which had two numbers with each surah, one in the order of revelation and the other in the order of its placement in the Holy Quraan. Allah has preserved the Quraan in its text. But people are tampering with whatever they can in this Book of Allah. So I have a Quraan from Saudi Arabia and it has the writing that it is a gift from the king of Saudia. But it has no number of the surah, no mention whether the surah is Makki or Madani, no name of the juz (30 parts with a name for each juz.). Stop signs are changed, even waqfi-lazim is removed from some places. The actors of these works may be thinking that Allah is carefree but see what is coming on the Arab world. Two days ago there was a terrible storm and flood in the UAE. Think about other Arab countries, wicked cruels are appointed on them. I advise the Muslims to become serious and stop playing with Allah's Book and Allah's Deen, otherwise, everyone's turn is coming as Allah is not unaware of what they do!!!
Reply

OmAbdullah
03-12-2016, 09:08 PM
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم


I think that the final complete copy of the Holy Quraan, which the Prophet Muhammad (Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him) left for the Ummah may be on flat sheets of equal size made of leather. It also may be that they cut holes near the long edge of each sheet and then passed cloth or some other type of string through the holes to bind all sheets together to make it complete Book with the number of pages, verses and name and number of each surah; and the mentioning of its being Makki or Madani surah. It would also be having the name and number of each part (juz). In the end of surah Al-Naas would be the short du’aa (to be read at the end of daily recitation and after that a long du’aa to be read when one finishes the whole Quraan. After that it would have further details like list of contents, and description of the types of stops etc.


Allah knows best. But I explained it because my conscience (dameer) was not satisfied, rather it was upset with the imagination of an irregular Book as I had posted before this post. It would not only be this copy but many other copies would have been made at the same time as there were so many scribes. But in case if other copies were on flat bones, tree barks and leather sheets, this special copy which the Prophet (Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him) put with Hafsah rAa would be completely on leather sheets bound together into a perfect Book. And then, at the occasion of Hajjatul-wida, the Prophet (Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him) announced in His last sermon that He had left for us the Book of Allah and His Sunnah to hold fast to both of them and protect ourselves from going astray.
Allah knows best. I made salaati-istikhaarah before posting this statement. I requested Allah to guide me and protect me from posting any wrong statement.


Now from most of the newly printed Quraans, the last two or one du’aa is removed, alas.
Reply

Sojourn
03-29-2016, 06:42 AM
Muslims not agreeing about the Quran?

:omg:
Reply

talibilm
03-29-2016, 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Muslims not agreeing about the Quran?

:omg:
Its not about the Noble Quran but the difference of opinion of about a couple of years time ( is it 631 AD ? or 1 year after Prophet's demise ie 633AD ? ) of its complete compiled form as a COMPLETE Book as of today.
Reply

Abz2000
09-06-2016, 03:30 PM
I came across a post by goodwill regarding 26 variants of older manuscripts of the Quran:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post2925507

The presentation in the video posted unfortunately appeared belligerent and accusatory, geared towards eliciting a defensive response, and less inclined towards finding the truth, accepting it and growing in understanding together.
I continued to research further and found some responses, one appeared a little informative but also defensive, still, an apparently sincere attempt to explain what the speaker was able to explain:



The way i see it, the message is presented to us, it is not our personal ownership and we have no need to shuffle about uncomfortably because someone showed us that we may have been wrong in some of our previous viewpoints/conclusions. Our task is to seek the truth, accept the truth and follow the truth and most correct guidance to the best of our abilities, shuffling about and being apologetic rather than earnestly seeking to know only proves to oneself and to Allah that they are attempting to protect the established way of their group, unfortunately it happens to people who were upon the truth in past nations but became defensive and irritable when new information was revealed or made apparent showing that some of their conclusions were mistaken. We need sincere and objective reasoning, the revelation is not ours - it's God's. We get nearer to Him by humbly seeking and learning.

The following link provides a view of some of the oldest manuscripts reported to have ever been found, at Sana'a, Yemen at a mosque established by a companion of God's final messenger (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and also shows how corruption and incompetence led to many of the manuscripts being stolen, and in most cases, split into fragments and auctioned off all over the planet. All that was needed was an initial high resolution photographic inventory to be taken of all available pieces, that way the information would not have been lost, and any theft would become easily confirmable.


http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur.../Mss/soth.html

And here are some more details of some of the questions surrounding the later compilations:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/
Reply

Scimitar
09-06-2016, 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by Sojourn
Greetings,

I came across an article written by James A. Bellamy...[/snip]
If I want to learn how to bake bread, I go to a baker - not a car mechanic.

Scimi
Reply

talibilm
09-08-2016, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
I came across a post by goodwill regarding 26 variants of older manuscripts of the Quran:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post2925507
:sl:

Its been a long term plan by the apologetics like Smith & Wood to sow doubts in Muslims mind as proved in a video which i had listed on the Ummah but went offline later. Such of those plan was implemented by Smith at the speakers Corner with different Quran cover Prints of 26 Qurans from different countries and Pointing out the Colour Tajweed of the Arabic Alphabets as different words from the plain ones trying to give a false impression to lay readers that the Qur'an exists in different texts & 26 VERSIONS which is Just a conspiracy together with the help of the who Pretend to be Muslims as The turkish Lady and both of them who even do not understand Arabic .


The Truth is Allah intended EASE for the Beleivers in the Path of Islam which is Obviously seen from Many verses of the Noble Quran and that's why Allah had followed the so called Method of Abrogation to protect the Beleivers from falling into Sin by Acting AGAINST THE LAW of Allah See thread
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...-Contradicting



Similarly Allah revealed the Noble Quran in 7 dialects which matched the dialects of about seven main tribes: Quraysh, Hudhayl, Thaqîf, Hawâzin, Kinânah, Tamîm and Yemen. The revelation of the Qur'an in seven different ahruf (dialect) made its recitation and memorization much easier for the various tribes Since Allah wants Ease to his believers and Protect them from slipping into sins, At the same time the Qur'an challenged them to produce a surah like it even in their own dialect so that they would not complain about the incomprehensibility.

The Video presented with some sheik is mainly about the so called difference in Hafs, Warsh versions but not the 26 versions which is just a gimmick of the Lairs. So Its Correct to accept Sister @nbegam views in # 48,49 who says to be careful all on line materials when anything can be manipulated (even the so called warsh differences & I am doubtful did this exist when we had One dialect after Uthman R.A ? or its) as was experienced by me mostly done by the Kuffar sites on several occasions even with a false book of Barnabus with false writings (not aramaic) but claiming to be Aramaic just to cause doubts on the real Aramaic bible caught from the Smugglers in Turkey. Many double records in letters of Prophet is also such treachery & even in the Body of Pharoah making us to fall in doubt wheather it was Ramess 1 or 2 all in just 40 years after Maurice Buccails Mummy's restoration in 1974. Even makes me doubt where there double records in the same hadith where Zaid ibn Thabit reports about missing verse in one its about Sura ahzab & another about sura tauba both found with same Abi Khuzaima al Ansari ? or a mistake ?

Originally Posted by Abz2000
The following link provides a view of some of the oldest manuscripts reported to have ever been found, at Sana'a, Yemen at a mosque established by a companion of God's final messenger (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and also shows how corruption and incompetence led to many of the manuscripts being stolen, and in most cases, split into fragments and auctioned off all over the planet. All that was needed was an initial high resolution photographic inventory to be taken of all available pieces, that way the information would not have been lost, and any theft would become easily confirmable.


And here are some more details of some of the questions surrounding the later compilations:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur.../Mss/soth.html
This is what happens if you do not listen to the Rightly Guided Caliph like Uthman R.A since its the ORDER of Prophet :saws: to do whatever the Caliphs ordered, and its godly. Uthman R.A ORDERED to burn whatever & where ever it was but the Muslims in Sanaa had put them in well (another method to discard ) but those leather Parchments were ONLY partially washed (as seen from the images) So the Jews & Hypocrites in Sanaa had did the rest OF REWRITING the Quran with differences and Hid It SECRETLY to create confusions later . Why should they hide it if they had good faith and it was legitimate ?

These were the same group who also send Ibn Sabah the Hypocrite who entered Islam and try to provocate the supporters of Ali (ra) against Uthman and later called Ali (R.A) as God. When Ali r.a warned his and his group of 40 to repent and return to Shahada they did not and he and his group were BURNT LIVE by ali and he was also one of the reason of the worst Shias emergence who use such words of shirk ( From Dr Israar Ahmed , The Philanthropist Scholar of Islam, the Best widely knowledgeable in Academics and UNBIASED imo)

Brother, beware, Islamic awareness is Fake Hypocritical site with 9 truths and 1 lie mixed in it so we have to be careful with what they say . somebody already warned about them long ago which is also proved from your below Link regarding the Radio carbon datings about the Uthmanic Scripts which is incorrect as they claim 8th century but Oxford Lab claims the datings were between from 595 AD to 855 AD which is correct as its 653 AD by Uthman R.A, (Not compilation but Just reaffirmation into standard copy in one Quraishi dialect )


Islamic awareness in the above link says

'The “Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān” At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.
''A folio from a Quranic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, commonly attributed to caliph ʿUthmān, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. The dates generated by this radiometric technique and palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date. ''


This is a Lie since the actual dates given by the Oxford lab are 595 AD to 855 AD which is correct as the exact year is 653 AD as in the pdf link in below thread post # 131

This is what Sister @nbegam was warning in posts 48.49 all around about the hidden hypocrites (as in several hadith) will try to destroy lslam from inside with being called as Muslims when the truth is this . Kindly read from post #126 and in post # 131 here and NOTE the link in Pdf which am unable to transfer here and kindly give a good read

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...the+son+of+god
Reply

Abz2000
09-08-2016, 06:02 PM
Allah knows the unseen best, our duty is to gain knowledge and follow the truth to the best of our ability, If you look into the nature of wahi (inspiration), you'll find that sometimes it is absolutely clear and often rhythmic, and other times it is base data which has to be be understood and read out in the words and language of the receiver, sometimes Allah allowed even shaytaan to test people through shaytaan's interception and transmission of falsehood - after revelation was completed - the issue of the interception during the recitation of surah an-najm should help in understanding how this happened, however Allah obliterates falsehood and confirms His true signs.
It wasn't just a case of revealing the entire Quran in seven different dialects, it was sometimes different wording in some aayahs, anyone who knows seerah would know that the entire Quran wasn't revealed in seven dialects.
I won't pretend that i understand the full import of the following hadith or how authentic it actually is - regardless of recorded chain, but it appears to be the source of the misunderstanding of the seven different dialects theory. It is a little confusing too, but so were many things at the time, best to say that it's a case of mutashaabihaat and Allah knows best. The duty of mankind is to follow the truth to the best of their ability.

Language: English Narrated `Umar bin Al-Khattab:I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Sura which I heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) taught it to me." I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) has taught it to me in a different way from yours." So I dragged him to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and said (to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)), "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him, (O `Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way as I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "It was revealed in this way," and added, "Recite, O `Umar!" I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you).

حَدَّثَنَا سَعِيدُ بْنُ عُفَيْرٍ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي اللَّيْثُ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي عُقَيْلٌ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي عُرْوَةُ بْنُ الزُّبَيْرِ، أَنَّ الْمِسْوَرَ بْنَ مَخْرَمَةَ، وَعَبْدَ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنَ عَبْدٍ الْقَارِيَّ، حَدَّثَاهُ أَنَّهُمَا، سَمِعَا عُمَرَ بْنَ الْخَطَّابِ، يَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ هِشَامَ بْنَ حَكِيمٍ، يَقْرَأُ سُورَةَ الْفُرْقَانِ فِي حَيَاةِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَاسْتَمَعْتُ لِقِرَاءَتِهِ فَإِذَا هُوَ يَقْرَأُ عَلَى حُرُوفٍ كَثِيرَةٍ لَمْ يُقْرِئْنِيهَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَكِدْتُ أُسَاوِرُهُ فِي الصَّلاَةِ فَتَصَبَّرْتُ حَتَّى سَلَّمَ فَلَبَّبْتُهُ بِرِدَائِهِ فَقُلْتُ مَنْ أَقْرَأَكَ هَذِهِ السُّورَةَ الَّتِي سَمِعْتُكَ تَقْرَأُ‏.‏ قَالَ أَقْرَأَنِيهَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم‏.‏ فَقُلْتُ كَذَبْتَ فَإِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَدْ أَقْرَأَنِيهَا عَلَى غَيْرِ مَا قَرَأْتَ، فَانْطَلَقْتُ بِهِ أَقُودُهُ إِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقُلْتُ إِنِّي سَمِعْتُ هَذَا يَقْرَأُ بِسُورَةِ الْفُرْقَانِ عَلَى حُرُوفٍ لَمْ تُقْرِئْنِيهَا‏.‏ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ أَرْسِلْهُ اقْرَأْ يَا هِشَامُ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَقَرَأَ عَلَيْهِ الْقِرَاءَةَ الَّتِي سَمِعْتُهُ يَقْرَأُ‏.‏ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ كَذَلِكَ أُنْزِلَتْ ‏"‏‏.‏ ثُمَّ قَالَ ‏"‏ اقْرَأْ يَا عُمَرُ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَقَرَأْتُ الْقِرَاءَةَ الَّتِي أَقْرَأَنِي، فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ كَذَلِكَ أُنْزِلَتْ، إِنَّ هَذَا الْقُرْآنَ أُنْزِلَ عَلَى سَبْعَةِ أَحْرُفٍ فَاقْرَءُوا مَا تَيَسَّرَ مِنْهُ ‏"‏‏.‏Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 4992In-book reference : Book 66, Hadith 14USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 61, Hadith 514 (deprecated numbering scheme)
http://sunnah.com/urn/46690Regarding

the burning order, Uthmaan (may Allah be pleased with him) did it because of the confusion and turmoil, but this mosque was established by a sahaabah during the Prophet's time, therefore, it is likely that there were some authentic abrogated verses in them and also some verses which were unavailable to zaid ibn thaabit at the time of compilation, further study of the verses would only enlighten us as to the facts so that we don't have to lie to ourselves or to others, and it would be in keeping with the guidance of Allah since there is no haram and only good to be gained. Uthmaan's burning order appears to have been a drastic measure in order to avoid chaos, we have matured a lot since then and are able to make studies and comparisons, the sahabah who were in Yemen may have made a judgement call to save the scriptures in obedience to Allah - and Allah certainly knows best. There is room for a seperate scholarly study of apocrypha, and this applies to strange or doubtful ahadith too.
To understand the ijtihaad of preservation, read the following

Praise be to Allaah.

It was narrated from Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not write anything from me; whoever has written anything from me other than the Qur’aan, let him erase it and narrate from me, for there is nothing wrong with that.” (Narrated by Muslim, al-Zuhd wa’l-Raqaa’iq, 5326)

Al-Nawawi said in his commentary on Saheeh Muslim:

“Al-Qaadi said: there were many disputes among the Sahaabah and Taabi’een concerning the writing down of knowledge. Many of them regarded this as being makrooh, but most of them regarded it as permissible. This dispute is no longer an issue.

They differed as to the meaning of this hadeeth which says that it is forbidden. It was said that this pertained to one who was sure of his memory, and there was the fear that he may rely upon what he had written if he wrote it down; the ahaadeeth which say that it is permissible to write things down is to be interpreted as referring to the one whose memory is not reliable, such as the hadeeth, “Write it down for Abu Shaah”; or the hadeeth of the saheefah of ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him); the hadeeth of the book of ‘Amr ibn Hazm, which contains laws on inheritance, sunnahs and diyaat (blood money); the hadeeth about writing down charity, and the minimum amounts at which zakaah becomes obligatory (nisaab), with which Abu Bakr sent Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) to Bahrain; the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah which says that Ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas used to ; write things down but he (Abu Hurayrah) did not write things down, and other ahaadeeth. And it was said that the hadeeth forbidding writing down ahaadeeth was abrogated by these ahaadeeth. The prohibition was in effect when there was the fear that (the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) might be mixed with the Qur’aan. When that danger was no longer present, permission was given to write down (ahaadeeth). And it was said that the prohibition mentioned in the hadeeth referred to writing ahaadeeth on the same page as Qur’aan, lest they become mixed and thus the reader would be confused when looking at this page. And Allaah knows best.

The hadeeth of Abu Shaah was narrated by al-Bukhaari from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said: ‘When Allaah granted His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) victory over Makkah, he stood before the people and praised and glorified Allaah, then he said: “Allaah protected Makkah from the elephant and has given authority to His Messenger and the believers over it, so fighting was forbidden for anyone before me, and was made permissible for me for part of a day, and it will not be permissible for anyone after me. Its game should not be chased, its thorny bushes should not be uprooted, and picking up its fallen things is not allowed except for one who makes public announcement for it, and he whose relative is murdered has the option either to accept a compensation for it or to retaliate.” Al-‘Abbas said, “Except Al-Idhkhir (a kind of plant), for we use it in our graves and houses.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Except Al-Idhkhir.” Abu Shaah, a Yemeni, stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah! Get it written for me.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Write it for Abu Shaah.” (al-Luqatah, 2254)

Ibn Hajar said: What may be understood from the story of Abu Shaah (“Write it for Abu Shaah”) is that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) gave permission for hadeeth to be written down from him.

This contradicts the hadeeth of Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri, which says that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Do not write down anything from me except the Qur’aan.’ (Narrated by Muslim).

The two may be reconciled by noting that the prohibition applied only to the time when the Qur’aan was being revealed, lest it be confused with something else, and that permission was given at other times; or that the prohibition applied only to writing down things other than Qur’aan with the Qur’aan on one thing, and that permission was given to write them separately; of that the prohibition came first and the permission abrogated that, when there was no longer any fear of confusion. This is most likely to be the case.

It was said that the prohibition applied only to those whom it was feared would depend on the writing and not memorize things, and that permission was given for those from whom such a thing was not feared.

The scholars said: a group of the Sahaabah and Taabi’een regarded it as makrooh to write down the hadeeth and they regarded it as mustahabb to learn it from them by heart, as they had learned it. But when people were no longer able to strive so hard (in memorizing) and the scholars feared that knowledge might be lost, they compiled it in books.”

https://islamqa.info/en/22394

Regarding the murtad burning order given by Ali (ra) this is forbidden and haraam even for the Prophet pbuh, i believe (if he did so) he was unaware of the occasion when the Prophet peace be upon him ordered it and then forbade it after becoming aware that this is a punishment that is reserved exclusively for the creator of the heavens and the earth. i pray that Allah has mercy on Ali who i sincerely believe was a believer who was truthful to Allah and His messenger.
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
Reply

talibilm
09-09-2016, 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by ibn-Adam
It is one of the miracles of the Qur'an. Written scriptures can be tampered with, as have happened with all previous scriptures. But Allah :swt: preserved the Qur'an by a unique method, memorization and oral recitation. I had posted this in another thread earlier:

:sl:

This is undisputable Proof & the Miracle UNIQUE only to the Noble Quran by which Allah perfectly preserved since the Power of Memory (even by kids less than 10) and recitation is so great none can deny.

I am some times blamed on my memory but when i tried singing of rhymes which i did when i was a kid and I can still sing those rhymes though I have not sung them for 4 decades , This is the wonder of memory of recitations.

So No other scripture has this advantage of DAILY USE since Muslims are compelled to memorize their noble Quran as we have to read them in our DAILY 5 times prayers without holding them in our hand (unlike Jews) and are obliged to teach our kids and many companions of prophet used to finish the whole Quran with in a couple of days from memory and continued their practice untill death, similar were tabieens and tabe tabieens the 2 and 3rd generations after prophet :saws: was how the Noble Quran was guarded with a TRIPLE CHECK method

1) in writing with from eye witnessess, 10000's of them
2) recitation in 5 daily prayers and night prayers, nafl prayers
3) As a hand book referred frequently to know the various laws of their whole Life
Reply

AabiruSabeel
09-09-2016, 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
it is likely that there were some authentic abrogated verses in them and also some verses which were unavailable to zaid ibn thaabit at the time of compilation
This is a false assumption. Everything was recorded perfectly by Zaid bin Thabit :ra: and not a single Ayah was missed. There were several Huffaz sahabah alive at that time and also at the time of 'Uthman :ra: who cross-checked the compilation.
Zaid :ra: says:

Narrated Kharija bin Zaid:
Zaid bin Thabit said, "When the Qur'an was compiled from various written manuscripts, one of the Verses of Surat Al-Ahzab was missing which I used to hear Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) reciting. I could not find it except with Khuza`ima bin Thabjt Al-Ansari, whose witness Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) regarded as equal to the witness of two men. And the Verse was:-- "Among the believers are men who have been true to what they covenanted with Allah." (33.23) [Bukhari]

In another narration,
I found the last verses of Surat-at-Tauba: ("Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves--' (9.128-129) ) from Khuza`ima or Abi Khuza`ima and I added to it the rest of the Sura. [Bukhari]

Had there been any other Ayah missing which he used to hear Allah's Messenger :saws: reciting, he would have mentioned it as well.
Reply

Serinity
09-09-2016, 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
If I want to learn how to bake bread, I go to a baker - not a car mechanic.

Scimi
Unless u want a bread that is a car instead - eat that car! That is your "bread".
Reply

talibilm
09-09-2016, 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by ibn-Adam
This is a false assumption. Everything was recorded perfectly by Zaid bin Thabit :ra: and not a single Ayah was missed. There were several Huffaz sahabah alive at that time and also at the time of 'Uthman :ra: who cross-checked the compilation.
Zaid :ra: says:
Narrated Kharija bin Zaid:
Zaid bin Thabit said, "When the Qur'an was compiled from various written manuscripts, one of the Verses of Surat Al-Ahzab was missing which I used to hear Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) reciting. I could not find it except with Khuza`ima bin Thabjt Al-Ansari, whose witness Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) regarded as equal to the witness of two men. And the Verse was:-- "Among the believers are men who have been true to what they covenanted with Allah." (33.23) [Bukhari]

In another narration,
I found the last verses of Surat-at-Tauba: ("Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves--' (9.128-129) ) from Khuza`ima or Abi Khuza`ima and I added to it the rest of the Sura. [Bukhari]

Had there been any other Ayah missing which he used to hear Allah's Messenger :saws: reciting, he would have mentioned it as well.
:sl:

Yes this true and another fact becomes implied if we give our Precise attention to theis words of Zaid ibn Thabit R.A who was the HEAD , of Both the teams even during the Noble Quran 's so called first compilation one year after Prophet :saws: demise during Caliph Abu Bakr R.A and also during the first Reaffirmation 20 years later in 653 AD by Caliph Uthman R.A.

Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 61 :: Hadith 511
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Abu Bakr sent for me and said, "You used to write the Divine Revelations for Allah's Apostle : So you should search for (the Qur'an and collect) it." I started searching for the Qur'an till I found the last two Verses of Surat At-Tauba with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari and I could not find these Verses with anybody other than him. (They were):



this perfectly IMPLIES all other verses of Noble Quran were found with multiple people (proofs as parchments ) but ONLY these 2 verses of S tauba were found ONLY with Abi Khuzaima Al Ansari R.A.

Its also very important to take note of those last MANY sermons of Haj (put together as One hadith later by Ahmad & others ) WHICH IMO ARE THE STRONGEST OF ALL HADITHS SINCE THE WITNESSES WERE IN 10,000'S WHICH ALSO CLEARLY SAID @nbegam




تركت فيكم ما إن تمسكتم به لن تضلوا بعدي أبداَ كتاب الله و سنتي

رواه مسلم

Translation:

''I am leaving behind Allah's Book and my Sunnah. You will never be astray after me, as long as you hold fast to these two.''

wallahu aalam. @nbegam

Bro @Abz2000, may this hadith be noted too ( bukhari Book #60, Hadith #60)

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair: I said to 'Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara: "Those of you who die and leave widows behind...without turning them out." has been abrogated by another Verse. Why then do you write it (in the Qur'an)?" 'Uthman said. "Leave it (where it is), O the son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the quran) from its original position."
Reply

talibilm
09-09-2016, 04:19 AM
Another Issue on the Goat ate the copy of Mushahf (mo)

The COPY of verses that were ate by goat during moments after Prophet's Death were about suckling came YEARS earlier and it was very well known to the Sahaba when even the last verse of Quran (5:3 ''........ “…This day have I perfected your religion for you, ....'') revealed in the last haj Sermon just before about 3 months before death was NOT LOST then how do those verses that revealed before years have been lost ?

Since some claim that we lost those sura which the goat ate during the moments of Prophets :saws: demise that was under the pillow ?

If the verse was intended to be in the Noble Quran how many days could it be under the pillow ? ,JUST before Prophet (saw) death ? or months ? or years ? because those suckling verse were early revelations and abrogated later and was only a copy of Mushahaf imo

So we CONCLUDE that we do not find the suckling verse or the stoning verse as Allah intended here in the below verse.

Noble Quran 2:106 '' Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

Talib We Reply '' Yes Ya Allah ,You are Indeed all powerful and you can make us forget what you intend us to forget like you did even with your Habib :saws:''




Bro @Abz2000, :sl:

may this hadith be noted too ( bukhari Book #60, Hadith #60)

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair: I said to 'Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara: "Those of you who die and leave widows behind...without turning them out." has been abrogated by another Verse. Why then do you write it (in the Qur'an)?" 'Uthman said. "Leave it (where it is), O the son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the quran) from its original position."


Reply

Abz2000
09-09-2016, 08:06 AM
Allah knows best, the.more we study the more we'll learn and gain an understanding of the nature of things.

But let's be careful to be openhearted to the truth and also possibilities of the things we don't yet know lest we think:
Atuhaddithoonahum bimaa fatahaAllaahu 'alaikum liyu haajjookum 'inda rabbakum, afalaa ta'qiloon: )

.....and up feeling a little sheepish later.
Reply

talibilm
09-09-2016, 11:11 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
Allah knows best, the.more we study the more we'll learn and gain an understanding of the nature of things.

But let's be careful to be openhearted to the truth and also possibilities of the things we don't yet know lest we think:
Atuhaddithoonahum bimaa fatahaAllaahu 'alaikum liyu haajjookum 'inda rabbakum, afalaa ta'qiloon: )

.....and up feeling a little sheepish later.
:sl:

Brother even the top scholar can make errors and the knowledge of Islam is like a sea and that's why a hadith said something like we seek knowledge our cradle untill the graveyard. But your contribution in your first known post to me about your's Handling with an appropriate hadith the slip of the Tongue saying ' You are my Slave I am your Rab 'puts you at one of the very Knowledgeable , Mashallah , ( I know we are not Scholars or Muftis ) when I am trying to follow people like you as a student of Knowledge .
Reply

Abz2000
09-09-2016, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by talibilm
:sl:

Brother even the top scholar can make errors and the knowledge of Islam is like a sea and that's why a hadith said something like we seek knowledge our cradle untill the graveyard. But your contribution in your first known post to me about your's Handling with an appropriate hadith the slip of the Tongue saying ' You are my Slave I am your Rab 'puts you at one of the very Knowledgeable , Mashallah , ( I know we are not Scholars or Muftis ) when I am trying to follow people like you as a student of Knowledge .
I am a fellow-servant of Allah with you and also a seeker of knowledge, and i know we'll all be continually revising our opinions 'til we reach the grave - scholars included.

Btw, just found a piece to contribute:

Abu Bakr collected these loose materials and had their
contents written on to sheets (suhuf).

The Difference belween Abu Bakr's and 'Uthman's
Collection

Abu Bakr had made one single copy from the various
verbal and written material. This copy was later kept by
'Umar and then by his daughter Hafsa.

'Uthman had many copies prepared from this copy and sent
them to various places in the Muslim world, while the original
suhuf were returned to Hafsa and remained with her until her
death.
Later, Marwan b. Hakam (d. 65/684), according to a
report in Ibn Abi Dawud, collected it from her heirs and had it
destroyed, presumably fearing it might become the cause for
new disputes.
'Uthman also kept one of the copies for himself.
This version of the text, also known as 'Mushaf 'Uthman in
fact constitutes the ijma'(consensus) of the sahaba, all of
whom agreed that it contained what Muhammad had brought
as revelation from Allah.


http://www.***********/sources/ulumq...0Quran%202.htm
We can see that the main body of sahaabah were very pragmatic and sincere in doing their best to convey the message and also to avoid unnecessary contention, the fact that they agreed that the compilation of Uthmaan (ra) was sound shows their humility and eager will to remain united upon what is most truthful and stable.

The fact that some sahabah held onto other readings but didn't go around arguing that theirs was the most authoritative and thereby create fitnah was a good thing, there is always a gem or two to be found in apocrypha - whether previous scripture, hadith, or Quran, and tracing it also gives us a context of how we came to where we are now, since apocrypha comes with rich history, some true and some false.

Here is what Dr.Haddad tells us - again, some of this is based on opinion and not necessarily 100% fact:


Sayyidina `Uthman’s Preservation of Qur’an

Notes by Dr. G.F. Haddad

Imam al-Bukhari narrates in his Sahih (6:183-184) from Anas ibn Malik (RA) that Hudhayfa ibn al-Yaman came to `Uthman at the time the people of Sham were battling for the conquest of Armenia and Azerbaijan [~year 25H] with the people of Iraq. Their divergences in Qur'anic reading had alarmed Hudhayfa, so he said to `Uthman: "O Commander of the Believers! Rescue (adrik) this Umma before they differ over the Book the way the Jews and Christians differed." Whereupon `Uthman wrote to Hafsah: "Send us the folios (suhuf) so that we copy them then we shall return them to you." Hafsa then sent them to `Uthman who ordered Zayd ibn Thabit, `Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr, Sa`id ibn al-`As, and `Abd Allah ibn al-Harith ibn Hisham who copied those folios into the volumes (masahif). `Uthman said to the group - the three Qurayshis: "If you find yourselves differing, [the three of] you and Zayd ibn Thabit in anything of the Qur'an, write it in the tongue of the Quraysh. For it was not revealed but in their tongue." They did [as instructed] and when they finished copying the folios into the volumes, `Uthman returned the folios to Hafsa, sent one mushaf to each region from those they had copied, then ordered that all other [copies] of the Qur'an in each and every folio or volume be burnt.

In his commentary on the above hadith in Fath al-Bari, at the line "when they finished copying the folios into the volumes, `Uthman returned the folios to Hafsa," Ibn Hajar says:

"Abu `Ubayd [a tashif for Abu `Ubayda al-Qasim ibn Sallam as proven below] and Ibn Abi Dawud [in Kitab al-Masahif] added: with a chain from Shu`ayb, from Ibn Shihab who said: Salim ibn `Abd Allah ibn `Umar told me:

"'Marwan used to send courier to Hafsa - meaning, when he was governor of al-Madina on behalf of Mu`awiya - asking her for the folios from which the Qur'an had been copied [kutiba minha] but she would refuse to give them to him.' Salim continued: 'When Hafsa died and we returned from her burial, Marwan sent an imperative request to `Abd Allah ibn `Umar for those folios to be sent to him, whereupon `Abd Allah ibn `Umar sent them to him. Then Marwan gave an order so they were ripped up (fashuqqiqat). He said: 'I only did this because I feared that after the passing of time, some doubter might foster doubt with regard to those folios.'

"The wording in Abu `Ubayda's narration has: 'so they were torn up' (famuzziqat). Abu `Ubayd [sic] said: 'It is unheard of that Marwan tore up the folios except in this narration.' I say: Ibn Abi Dawud narrated it with a chain from Yunus ibn Yazid, from Ibn Shihab, in a similar wording which has:

"'When Marwan was governor of Madina he sent courier to Hafsa asking her for the folios but she refused him access to them.' He [Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri] said: 'Salim ibn `Abd Allah [ibn `Umar] narrated to me saying: "When Hafsa died..."' and he narrated it [as above] and said in it: 'So he had them ripped up and burnt' (fashaqqaqaha wa harraqaha).

"And this addition also came up in the narration of `Umara ibn Ghuzayya, also an abridged one, but he, also made it part of the narration of Zayd ibn Thabit who said in it: 'So he had it washed out thoroughly (faghassalaha ghaslan)'.... And all this can be reconciled by saying that this was done with all the folios - renting, them washing out, then burning - and it is possible that the word [harraqaha] be read 'kharraqaha' (he had them rent) so that he has them first torn up then washed out, and Allah knows best."

These Suhuf were the Mushaf of Abu Bakr (RA) kept by `Umar, then kept by his daughter Hafsa the Mother of the Believers, wAllahu a`lam.


http://www.***********/history/Sahab...tion_Quran.htm
Reply

talibilm
09-10-2016, 11:17 AM
:sl: Bro @Abz2000

These stories of Marwan the governor about taking Hafsa R.A 's copies and burning it (an Important event ) though i had heard before few years but still can't find reference of it in any of the four leading Sahih hadith and any stories from Ibn Ibn Abi Dawud are better rejected since his father Abi Dawud said ' My Son is a Liar ' which i saw or heard from few including the Speaker Shabbir Ali from Canada.

But my earlier own assumption before i heard about Ibn Abi Dawud as a Liar i assumed when Abu backr (ra) compiled it , which was in a hurry Islam was within Arabia ( a poor underdeveloped ) with the short time to find all leather fresh parchments of this Large Holy Book and usage of low quality writing materials and storage facilities of Mud house of Afsa R.A the Hafsa's copy
could have signs of wear and tear or worn out and was the reason for discarding it through burning. Because bits & pieces could confuse more than other things.

but when Muslims became richer by the time of Uthman R.A , as prophesied by Prophet :saws: and with better quality materials (might be imported from Europe) the Uthmanic Copies could have survived that deteroriation as found now in Tashkent.

Another Fact is If Hafsa's copy was not the similar one of Uthman'ra's Standard copy it should have been burned as well with other Parchments. But an apologetic argued he did not burn because he promised to give back to Hafsa. Even if this was SO the Caliph Uthman could have returned to Hafsa as per his promise and as the Caliph of the Ummah could have demanded back so that it be burned for the welfare of the Ummah AND In Islam we know listening to the order of these Guaranteed rightly guided Calipha's is equal to the Order of Prophet :saws: which is the Order of Allah, The Creator. As seen in communications between Fathima R.Anha & Caliph Abu Backr Al Siddique R.A when she demanded some properties But though he cried for not giving it to her (denying her) but followed the Order of Prophet :saws: not to give his property even to his beloved daughter or legal heirs except for the ummah (The Muslim Public) So My question is If Fathima R.A did not deny the Order of Calipha surely Hafsa R.a , The wife of Prophet would not have denied IF CALIPH UTHMAN R.A demanded the first compilation of Abu Backr to be returned to be burnt FOR THE WELFARE OF THE UMMAH. So he did not order so because it was the same or almost the same of his reaffirmed copy also as seen in the last hadith which is as below


Bukhari Book #60, Hadith #60

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair: I said to 'Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara: "Those of you who die and leave widows behind...without turning them out." has been abrogated by another Verse. Why then do you write it (in the Qur'an)?" 'Uthman said. "Leave it (where it is), O the son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the quran) from its original position."
Reply

OmAbdullah
09-11-2016, 03:33 PM
Assalaamo alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh'


Please be careful, you and all sincere Muslims, from falling into such statements like their saying about the missing of verses. These are all very false statements invented by the kaafirs to attack the Holy Quraan. We being Muslims must stand strong on our steps believing that Quraan was completed by Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam in his life time along with many copies which he distributed to the companions while one special copy was placed with Hafsah rAa by the Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam himself. As Islam was spreading and more and more Quraans were needed by the new Muslims so Abu Bakar Siddeeq rAa had to make more copies from the copy with Hafsah rAa. Later Uthmaan rAa also made many copies from the same Quraan that was kept with Hafsah rAa. He (Uthman rAa) also gathered the copies written by people and burnt them to avoid any mistake. So that the only type that existed was an exact copy of the Holy Quraan placed with Hafsah rAa by the Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam himself.


Quraan is the Book of Allah which Allah managed to preserve for all generations because this is the Final Source of guidance. The mission of the Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam was to complete the Holy Quraan in all aspects and it was done in His life. Only then He left this world. No one could or can make changes in the Holy Quraan. It is safe and preserved in written form. No verses were lost. All these statements are false and came from the enemies. No true Muslims should believe them.
Reply

talibilm
09-12-2016, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by nbegam
Assalaamo alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh'


Please be careful, you and all sincere Muslims, from falling into such statements like their saying about the missing of verses. These are all very false statements invented by the kaafirs to attack the Holy Quraan. We being Muslims must stand strong on our steps believing that Quraan was completed by Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam in his life time along with many copies which he distributed to the companions while one special copy was placed with Hafsah rAa by the Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam himself. As Islam was spreading and more and more Quraans were needed by the new Muslims so Abu Bakar Siddeeq rAa had to make more copies from the copy with Hafsah rAa. Later Uthmaan rAa also made many copies from the same Quraan that was kept with Hafsah rAa. He (Uthman rAa) also gathered the copies written by people and burnt them to avoid any mistake. So that the only type that existed was an exact copy of the Holy Quraan placed with Hafsah rAa by the Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam himself.


Quraan is the Book of Allah which Allah managed to preserve for all generations because this is the Final Source of guidance. The mission of the Prophet Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam was to complete the Holy Quraan in all aspects and it was done in His life. Only then He left this world. No one could or can make changes in the Holy Quraan. It is safe and preserved in written form. No verses were lost. All these statements are false and came from the enemies. No true Muslims should believe them.

:sl:

You could be right with your analogy between those hadiths, Sister and the below hadith including the MOST strongest Hadith of all ie the last haj sermon with 10,000's of witnesses where Prophet :saws: told he is leaving the Quran & the sunnah '' affirms that too.

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair: I said to 'Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara: "Those of you who die and leave widows behind...without turning them out." has been abrogated by another Verse. Why then do you write it (in the Qur'an)?" 'Uthman said. "Leave it (where it is), O the son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the quran) from its original position."
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-03-2012, 03:09 PM
  2. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-17-2011, 02:39 PM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-14-2008, 02:39 AM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-04-2005, 05:11 PM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!