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livingdaybyday
03-01-2016, 12:15 PM
Asalamu Aliakum

My story is so long, sorry for troubling you all but I need urgent help & support and advice….please.



Dear brothers & sisters, I am in need of advice an support, I hope this question is answered, please I am stuck. My wife left home 16 months ago, I tried so hard with my family, friends, and relatives to sit down and talk about what the issues are because to this day I still do not know why she left for so long (2nd time in 3 year marriage left home). Her family refused to entertain the idea to just discuss and kept her away from me. The worst part is she is a 4 hour drive away and has my toddler son with her. I was stopped from seeing my son for 10 months, until I took it to court for my son’s sake to have his father in his life. Alhamdulillah’s, I was successful and every 2 weeks I did the long drive to see my son for a few hours for 3 long months, stayed in hotels, stayed in cold freezing car waiting but I stayed strong for my son, and by Allah’s blessing, he now stays with me overnight for one night every 2 weeks and finally got to meet my family after over 1 year without seeing anyone. It is hard of course but I have an amazing family, the only heart-breaking part is when his mother drops him of, he cries so much to not go to me but after I take him, he is completely fine. You should see the smirk on her face when he cries for her. I understand it is not his fault, but it breaks my heart, and cry every journey home when I drop him back to his mum. I have never let him see me cry.

I will say that I did visit her and my son while it was snowing, she would not answer her phone, her family would not open the door, I actually slept in my car that night due to the long journey, asking her for a duvet, but not a single reply. Next day her family allowed me in for 20 minutes to see my son only. I did not see anyone else. Every nappy, milk, cloth I had taken for my son, her mother screamed down the stairs for me to take them with me, when I said no these are for my son, they shoved all these things back into my car. I don’t’ want to say what I felt on the drive home; I am sure you can imagine.

After we went to court, I was then told by her 'you took me to court we are now finished and our marriage is over’. Few days later she contacts me and wants to try to fix our marriage and I should cancel the child court order but I stuck to it, she always drops my son of late, picks up late, then I get solicitors letter that when my son is with me for just a few hours, he gets ill, I don’t change nappies, I make him cry, etc etc so many lies. Her letters did not scare me and I stuck the order. After she was not successful, she wants to again try to fix marriage, so I tried for the sake of my son, then she changes mind, then wants to try again, then changes mind and so on to the point she changed her number for 5 months! (changed number 3 months after she first left). Something just is not right.

After a few months of no contact she contacted me again for her belongings, so I said we need to discuss our marriage and take it from there, I explained it Islamically and the reply was ‘ok mister mufti saab!’she refused to talk and 'disappeared' for weeks on end again.

Eventually she came with the police, her brother & her brother’s friend to take her stuff and left behind the wedding dress I bought for her (very expensive). 1 week later I received a solicitor letter telling me to give that dress back as it is hers...sigh. So I just gave to keep the peace it as I am not materialistic. She then blames me for giving back all her stuff, and says he only came for some ‘winter’ clothing and I kicked all her stuff out. Honestly writing this I feel so ashamed of her behavior. In front of her brother, the police and her brothers friend, she told me to shut up, told me I was fat, old (I am only 29!, she is 24) etc etc. I told the police, you came because she lied and said she feels scared, yet it’s her behavior that is being shown up, she just nodded.


This is an extremely angry women, with a family who refuse to listen and understand anyone else, her father has called me mentally disturbed, called my mother the same, my family low, his family does nothing wrong and I am this, that and the other. It is so tiring.


I got shouted at, pushed, called not a man, I am nothing without my father, mocking me, mocking my family. saying bad things to me when I drop my son of to her (he is only 18 months). She gave her rings back and asked for a divorce and I should hurry up and give her one yet when I did she told me to cancel because she wants to ‘try’ again. Calling me fat, old, mentally disturbed, my mother is this and that so on and so on. Exactly what her father calls me, she does the same. I remember going to see my son after 8 or 9 months of not seeing him, her dad proclaimed 'WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR YOUR SON! I was not allowed to see my son, then I am questioned. It’s so crazy & strange.

'So i got tired of the game, and I filed for English divorce, then she refuses the divorce and wanted me to cancel the divorce and try again. Looking at my son, I did stop it and tried again. Everything seems to be going good, then 2 days before she is to return home, she asks more time and she is 'confused'. So from caring if I am eating, sleeping, to now she’s disappeared again.

Where do I go from here? I look at my son and cry not to divorce so he can grow up to be a man in my house and not in another man’s house if she marries again. I am scared to get divorced. She is toying with me I know it; I know she does not love me even though she says she does. How does a wife leave a husband for this long not caring is he is alive, eating, sleeping I just don’t get it.

I am not upset about her because she treats me worse than an animal, like she said her father is FIRST then I come next...that hurt me alot. I am scared to lose my son, and she is already influencing badly (giving our son a Mohican haircut, toba toba). So I told her why did you do this, her reply is 'if you don’t like it go cut it again!)

I have now been separated for 17 months. I live alone sleep alone, eat alone, did Ramadan alone, cook alone, clean alone, Come home from work to empty house no warmth of a wife’s smile. No laughter of my child. It's so hard. Now she is back wanting a divorce, has stated she wants our home that she lived in for a total of 2 weeks! Has told me to move back into my parents if she 'wins' the home. I said to her I couldn't believe she would do this to me and it's like she has stabbed me in the back. Her reply was 'stab you? no darling I don't do things like that' I haev never heard her ever say darling and it is an insulting way to talk.


What shall I do brothers & sisters, is it time to man up and divorce? Should I be patient? Any thoughts or advise?





May Allah guide me.
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Umm Abed
03-01-2016, 02:48 PM
Wa alaikum salam

Your story is a very sad one, but you have to have limits before it does you any further mental anguish.

She has clearly shown no concern for you or the marriage and is playing games with you so there is barely any hope of reconciliation. There is no need for patience like this, if you know there is no hope then living like this in the hope that she may come back is of no use.

Since the court has given you rights for visiting your child use that, other than that, well, let your life move on and start all over again.
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Muslim Woman
03-01-2016, 03:51 PM
:wa:


offer Istekhara and take a decision . This situation can not be go on forever.

May Allah grants what is best for you .
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livingdaybyday
03-01-2016, 04:22 PM
Salam brothers/Sisters, thank you for replying.

I know what I need to do. I have tried everything but nothing worked, apart from one thing, my love & fear for Allah grew amazingly.

It I time to let go in kindness and trust Allah to protect my son.
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The-Deist
03-01-2016, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by livingdaybyday
Salam brothers/Sisters, thank you for replying.

I know what I need to do. I have tried everything but nothing worked, apart from one thing, my love & fear for Allah grew amazingly.

It I time to let go in kindness and trust Allah to protect my son.
You da real MVP *claps*
Reply

Umm Abed
03-01-2016, 04:43 PM
Wassalam

And when your son is older he can always have the choice of being with you.

May Allah make it easy for you bro, and you do the best choices.
Reply

livingdaybyday
03-01-2016, 04:55 PM
From my heart thank you for taking the time out of your dayto advise me. Yes I have a sad story but no reason why I cannot have a happyfuture. Slowly I turn back to Allah, and may Allah forgive me for all the sin Ihave committed, and grant me just a little bit of peace, weather peace comes ornot I am forever grateful to Allah for showing me her true colours and savingme from a lifetime of misery.

Of course I fear for my son, but that fear goes when I thinkhe has the best protector, Allah SWT the most merciful, the greatest.

I am sure my son will be poisoned against me by her &her family, and for them whatever they have advised her to act in such a torridway and break a family, may Allah show them and bless them with an inch of hislight to save them to eternal suffering.

My only hope if my son to be able to know his father, acceptme as his father and make the right choices in life, and Allah will alwayswatch over him.

I wish you all happiness and the blessings of Allah in hugeamounts.
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Kiro
03-01-2016, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by livingdaybyday
From my heart thank you for taking the time out of your dayto advise me. Yes I have a sad story but no reason why I cannot have a happyfuture. Slowly I turn back to Allah, and may Allah forgive me for all the sin Ihave committed, and grant me just a little bit of peace, weather peace comes ornot I am forever grateful to Allah for showing me her true colours and savingme from a lifetime of misery.

Of course I fear for my son, but that fear goes when I thinkhe has the best protector, Allah SWT the most merciful, the greatest.

I am sure my son will be poisoned against me by her &her family, and for them whatever they have advised her to act in such a torridway and break a family, may Allah show them and bless them with an inch of hislight to save them to eternal suffering.

My only hope if my son to be able to know his father, acceptme as his father and make the right choices in life, and Allah will alwayswatch over him.

I wish you all happiness and the blessings of Allah in hugeamounts.
Poison? what are you saying? Allah is the changer of hearts, every salah, make dua that your son will grow a love for you. Things like that.

Make dua at Tahajud. Tahajud works wonders. :)
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Search
03-01-2016, 05:22 PM
:bism:

:sl:

I'm incredibly sorry to hear of your situation and pain - please know Allah is rewarding you for your suffering and patience.

I do not know your wife; however, from everything you've described, she has made your life difficult and hellish, and she continues to do so. Please do not feel compelled to put up with this type of attitude and behavior from your wife. In the meantime, you also have to decide if you think she is a good mother because from my understanding she's capable of passing this type of negative attitude and negative behavior otherwise to your son also.

If you are able to do so, please sue for full custody and from hereon out keep a record of her all her specific questionable behaviors, and have conversations only through phone texts or emails so that you have a record at hand to show in court (though please do not let her know that's why you are having conversations through those specific mediums).

Like Muslim Woman said, I'd pray Istikhaara in your situation. And you've already done Mashawara (Consultation) here which is part of Sunnah (prophetic footsteps), and you already know our feelings on the subject.

That said, please also read the freely available PDF book Sword Against Black Magic and Evil Magicians to which I'm linking you herein to observe if your marriage might be afflicted with shir because as you already can surmise your wife's behavior is simply not normal by any stretch of the imagination.

Also, I believe you've been suffering emotional and mental abuse in your marriage and therefore you should seek counselling from a professional to help you be able to come to a healthy mindset and heart, as whether you realize or not, this has taken an emotional toll on you. Please read this chart, though originally directed at women, are also good indicators of emotional and mental in the case of marriage such as yours even though you're a husband:



:wa:

Originally Posted by livingdaybyday
Asalamu Aliakum

My story is so long, sorry for troubling you all but I need urgent help & support and advice….please


May Allah guide me.
Reply

Search
03-01-2016, 05:31 PM
:bism:

:sl:

Originally Posted by livingdaybyday
My only hope if my son to be able to know his father, acceptme as his father and make the right choices in life, and Allah will alwayswatch over him.
Hey, please know that since your son is an infant, I wouldn't take your son crying when you receive him in your arms as an indication of him not loving you. He's still a baby, and of course babies like familiarity and familiar faces and your wife provides that at present. The crying doesn't mean that your son doesn't love you as he's only crying for familiar comfort and warmth, whoever provides that.

All that said, I strongly advise you to consult with a solicitor to see if you have any chance of obtaining full-time custody and your wife can visit him at your say-so. I'm sorry to say that I do not think your wife sounds like an emotionally or mentally stable figure and I do not think you should give up your son to her in this manner.

:wa:
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azc
03-02-2016, 01:55 AM
Shocked to know your story. It's evident that whole of that family doesn't like you at all and you don't want to divorce her because of your son..... Plz see following suggestions: **1: you can take the issue to all relatives of both sides to settle this dispute so that wife returns to you. If she returns then try to restart your life. Keep patience and bear all her cruelty for the sake of your son. If you can take her to any other remote place and stay there, will be good for your family.**2: If it doesn't work then I think you shouldn't divorce her. Stop yourself to meet your son. Don't be a toy to play with. Let her be at her father's home. Keep this relationship linger on, if she goes to court for divorce, let her go. **3: Shift to any other city if possible. There You may marry with another lady.
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livingdaybyday
03-02-2016, 09:49 AM
Originally Posted by Kiro
Poison? what are you saying? Allah is the changer of hearts, every salah, make dua that your son will grow a love for you. Things like that.

Make dua at Tahajud. Tahajud works wonders. :)
Salam my brother, by poison I mean bad mouthing about me to make him 'hate' me. I have already heard it from her tongue in front of my son.

Alhamdulilah, my iman is growing, Allah is truly blessing me. I woke up today exactly on time without an Alarm, subhanallah.
Reply

Umm Abed
03-02-2016, 10:01 AM
I wish you peace through this difficult time, brother.
Reply

livingdaybyday
03-02-2016, 10:07 AM
Walaikum Asalam sister 'Search'. What an incredible reply, thank you so much for your time to do this for me. Sister please do not feel sorry for me, just pray for me inshallah. There is nothing to feel sorry for this test has brought me in the path of my lord. For once in my love I love my lord in away I cannot even describe, it is strange but beautiful. Yesterday with Allah in mind, I said Bismillah and told my solicitor to issue divorce papers (I am in the UK, and I got married by English law aswell happily...if only I knew), I hope Allah allows the divorce to go through with ease.

In terms of full custody I will have to have a compelling case, and the English law is favorable to mothers, and I understand that. I have nothing but admiration for the English Law, honestly without it I would not even be seeing my son right now. Allah allowed me to be successful in court, and this annoyed her. Yes she is awkward to deal with, makes my life hellish, but this behavior is learned from her upbringing I am sure of it. Whenever she treats me like this, I smile and thank Allah for saving me from her for life.

Inshallah one day, if Allah wills, I will have a chance to fight for custody and may Allah make it successful for me. I know already, in the area she lives, my son will end up like a wannabe gangster, and I must, and with Allah help, ensure I influence him in the short time he is with me, in Allah's light. I hope on the day of judgment my son will be holding my hand, and our Prophet Muhammed SAW is proudwith us both, and most of all Allah is pleased with us. I don't know why that bought a tear to my eye (silly right)

I am smiling sister because you mention the book about black magic and evil, because I was told she had a jinn in her when she was a teenager. I have come to know her and her family are perennial liars, so Allah knows best, but Inshallah I will read when I have some time.

Believe me sister, I know the emotional toll it took on me, and it hurt, and I cried alot. Now if if feel sad I put audio of the Quran on, and never once have I felt sad that time, but I don't know why when Surah ar Rahman plays I always have tears, it so strange.

Also I wasn't a perfect husband, I tried my best, and I didn't always make her happy, and I said bad things in anger. I said sorry for these many many times, and she kept bringing it up again and again, but anyway inshallah I will be free from her soon. I really hope I made the right decision, becuase I could never ever live with her, in my heart I knew it, she had no love, care, compassion for me AT ALL, and now I put my trust in Allah to keep me on the right path.

Thank you also for the chart, it will Inshallah help me also to be a better man one day, as I am sure I am guilty of some of these, but one thing this seperation has taught me, is a love and respect for women, they have hard lives, and they cook, clean, work, look after babies, and some still smile, subanallah.

Peace be on you sister.
Reply

livingdaybyday
03-02-2016, 10:18 AM
Originally Posted by Umm Abed
I wish you peace through this difficult time, brother.
Salam sister, thank you for your kindness I wish you always have happiness and peace
Reply

livingdaybyday
03-02-2016, 10:23 AM
Originally Posted by Search
:bism:

:sl:



Hey, please know that since your son is an infant, I wouldn't take your son crying when you receive him in your arms as an indication of him not loving you. He's still a baby, and of course babies like familiarity and familiar faces and your wife provides that at present. The crying doesn't mean that your son doesn't love you as he's only crying for familiar comfort and warmth, whoever provides that.

All that said, I strongly advise you to consult with a solicitor to see if you have any chance of obtaining full-time custody and your wife can visit him at your say-so. I'm sorry to say that I do not think your wife sounds like an emotionally or mentally stable figure and I do not think you should give up your son to her in this manner.

:wa:
Salam sister, yes I know he is not crying because he doesn't love me, believe me after I start driving with him, his the happiest boy with me and my family. I love the way he comes running to me, and also he have developed such a strong bond and love with my younger sister, that when he saw her last weekend, it was like it was Eid for him, he was so happy, masallah.

The thing that annoys me the most, is when he is crying, she looks at me then does this smirk smile that really annoys me, but I chose to ignore it. My 'wife' I believe has narcissistic or behavior disorder, but refused to admit any responsibility or issues with herself. Her current crusade is, now that I am divorcing her, she wants my home, and for me to move into my parents. She believes that simply barbecue she had a child everything should be given for free. Our marriage is 3 years old, but she lived with me for 10-11 months, the rest at her parents! Is that a marriage!
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Umm Abed
03-02-2016, 10:24 AM
Originally Posted by livingdaybyday
Salam sister, thank you for your kindness I wish you always have happiness and peace
Wassalam brother, I just read your detailed post now.

Sometimes we go through these difficulties and in the process learn alot about life, the consequences of actions and ways of how to deal with them. Such is life.

Jazakallah for your kind words I pray that Allah makes a way out for you and gives you happiness.
Reply

livingdaybyday
03-02-2016, 10:30 AM
Originally Posted by azc
Shocked to know your story. It's evident that whole of that family doesn't like you at all and you don't want to divorce her because of your son..... Plz see following suggestions: **1: you can take the issue to all relatives of both sides to settle this dispute so that wife returns to you. If she returns then try to restart your life. Keep patience and bear all her cruelty for the sake of your son. If you can take her to any other remote place and stay there, will be good for your family.**2: If it doesn't work then I think you shouldn't divorce her. Stop yourself to meet your son. Don't be a toy to play with. Let her be at her father's home. Keep this relationship linger on, if she goes to court for divorce, let her go. **3: Shift to any other city if possible. There You may marry with another lady.
Salam brother, thank you for your reply. I have to say though I do no agree with your reply but I appreciate your time. I am not sure if you are a father, but believe me once your child holds your finger for the first time, you will wish he/she never lets go.

Her family loved me, until her slander and lies took hold, and suddenly their rational thinking went, and not once have they asked me 'what she is saying, is it true?' I must submit and do exactly as her father says! No thank you. I am Allahs slave, noone elses. I honestly believe I was part of a sham marriage to get a property, or wealth, not knowing that I am not wealthly but comfortable with what Allah provides me. Believe me even without a wife, I have never gone to bed hungry, feeling sad, lonely, why because my Allah is watching over me, i truly and deeply believe that.

1. Have tried the relatives, they did not want to sit and talk, in fact her father went on holiday for 12 weeks while she lived at his house, and I had no access to him for that time.
2. I have asked her to come home so much I have lost count, she does not want to, and will not. I am at peace with that. Why should I cry over someone who doesn't;t have decency to honor her husband and respect him let alone care if he is feeding himself. Men are simple without wife or mother we struggle, she didn;t care one little bit while playing the victim card very well and slowly moving on with her life while I rot away.
3. Brother I cannot believe you can ever tell someone to stop seeing their child, that will never happen until I stop breathing, I can take abuse, be offended, humiliated, but never I will stop seeing my son. I am a father to my son, he is my son, my responsibility and he is my biggest blessing from my lord. Fathers who are absent from their child life with no valid excuse make me sick.

I wish peace on you brother.
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azc
03-02-2016, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by livingdaybyday
Salam brother, thank you for your reply. I have to say though I do no agree with your reply but I appreciate your time. I am not sure if you are a father, but believe me once your child holds your finger for the first time, you will wish he/she never lets go.Her family loved me, until her slander and lies took hold, and suddenly their rational thinking went, and not once have they asked me 'what she is saying, is it true?' I must submit and do exactly as her father says! No thank you. I am Allahs slave, noone elses. I honestly believe I was part of a sham marriage to get a property, or wealth, not knowing that I am not wealthly but comfortable with what Allah provides me. Believe me even without a wife, I have never gone to bed hungry, feeling sad, lonely, why because my Allah is watching over me, i truly and deeply believe that.1. Have tried the relatives, they did not want to sit and talk, in fact her father went on holiday for 12 weeks while she lived at his house, and I had no access to him for that time.2. I have asked her to come home so much I have lost count, she does not want to, and will not. I am at peace with that. Why should I cry over someone who doesn't;t have decency to honor her husband and respect him let alone care if he is feeding himself. Men are simple without wife or mother we struggle, she didn;t care one little bit while playing the victim card very well and slowly moving on with her life while I rot away. 3. Brother I cannot believe you can ever tell someone to stop seeing their child, that will never happen until I stop breathing, I can take abuse, be offended, humiliated, but never I will stop seeing my son. I am a father to my son, he is my son, my responsibility and he is my biggest blessing from my lord. Fathers who are absent from their child life with no valid excuse make me sick.I wish peace on you brother.
You are emotionally a highly weak MAN. Keep in mind that You aren't the ONLY father on this planet. I discussed your problem with my wife prior to replying you and she agreed with me.Alhamdulillah I've happy Married family.Several of my relatives happened to face almost similar situations and they face them boldly, neither they divorced their wives nor did they succumb to social or legal pressure and eventually they made their in-laws and wives kneel down. Lately One of my brother has almost similar issue. His wife with their ONLY Son is still staying with her parents' home. He saw his ONLY Son 3 years ago. He never longs for his child to see.
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livingdaybyday
03-02-2016, 01:08 PM
Salam brother. I appreciate your comments but I still disagree with it. Not longing for ones child is not something to be proud of even if its to teach "her" a lesson. What good is that doing to an innocent child. Allah says never to abandon your child no matter how much issues you have with the other parent. I would rather be emotionally weak then have your crude mentally. How does commenting im not the only father increase your reasoning? Maybe your wife fills obliged to agree with you as you are her husband? Im so pleased you have a happy married life but stories might be similar but not the same. So while i stay married to her forever and linger how do I marry again if im married by English law?
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azc
03-02-2016, 01:25 PM
o.k. Do what is best for you.
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MuslimLawyer
03-02-2016, 02:56 PM
When its not working, you should get out.

There are multiple ways to resolve the ancillary issues.

~ML~
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livingdaybyday
03-02-2016, 03:20 PM
Salam brother, I have filed for divorce now, so I am getting out inshallah.

In terms of the ancillary issues, she is asking for my home (surprise, surprise), in which she lived in a total of 2 weeks!
Married for 3 years, but been separated in total for well over 24 months (2nd time she left)

As she is now the mother of my child, I wonder if she will be successful in taking my home from me, I mean where am I supposed to live,
actually she has a solution to that 'go back and live with your parents' lol such a shameless selfish person. She took all her dowry gold, cash,
clothes everything and left me literally with nothing but a roof over my head only because a home is too big for her pockets to carry!

Allah knows best.
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azc
03-02-2016, 03:39 PM
Who suggested you to divorce her? Now definitely she's got advantage. A 'cruel husband' is giving divorce to a 'hapless wife'. Where will this ''poor gentle lady'' live?You had to let her go to court for divorce but you made this mistake by filing a case against her.
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livingdaybyday
03-02-2016, 03:49 PM
Actually every single person has told me to divorce her apart from you brother. I wholeheartedly understand what you are saying about it seems like the cruel guy is divorcing a hapless woman. However this cruel guy has given her 1 and a half years to return to the home she left willingly. It is well documented about her behavior, her leaving the home, her unreasonable attitude. What do you suggest I do, live the rest of my life 'hoping' she might change her mind and come back? What if she never does, I have wasted my life on this cruel selfish woman. There is a reason why Allah has allowed divorce and this is one example where there is nothing left to try or do apart from separate.

I don't understand why your replies seem to only attack me personally, you do not know me or my situation or what I have been threw. Still I wish you peace in every reply, you cannot even give a salam.
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Umm Abed
03-02-2016, 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Who suggested you to divorce her? Now definitely she's got advantage. A 'cruel husband' is giving divorce to a 'hapless wife'. Where will this ''poor gentle lady'' live?You had to let her go to court for divorce but you made this mistake by filing a case against her.
Can you please explain exactly what you meant?

From what I see you'r saying that he should make her go to court and file for divorce. How will he do that?
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Muhammad
03-02-2016, 05:09 PM
:wasalamex brother,

I am sorry to hear of your problems. Marital affairs, whether they're between a husband and wife, in-laws or someone else, is an extremely sensitive issue that must be dealt with using knowledge of complete circumstances, knowledge of how to deal with marital affairs and an awareness of the consequences of the advice given. Please be aware that we are not in a position, nor are we qualified, to be giving advice about divorce and how to handle the situation with your wife.

The best thing to do, in addition to the advice about making Istikharah and seeking help from Allaah :swt:, is to visit an Imam, Islamic councillor or an Islamic Sharia Council. These places are set up with the right people and set up to deal with these situations. By involving both parties, they will be able to draw a complete picture of the events in order to give the best advice that is tailored to your circumstances.

In order to avoid replies that could mislead you and give potentially harmful advice, I will close the thread here.

May Allaah :swt: make a way out of your difficulty and rectify the affairs of your family, Aameen. The following thread contains a couple of du'as which you might find relevant in your situation: http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...relations.html
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