French minister: Muslim women who wear veils like ‘negroes’ supporting slavery

[strivingobserver98]

So, in the latest news, the French Minister for Women's Affairs claimed that women who voluntarily don the hijab are just like Negro slaves who attempted to justify slavery upon themselves.

As if that wasn't bad enough, an online petition was launched complaining against this minister...not for likening our hijabi sisters to slaves, but for the derogatory usage of the term 'Negro'!!!

And so she apologized, but only for the term, and said she would stand by 100 % everything else she said.

Truly, we live in times predicted by our Prophet (salla Allahu alayhi wa sallam), where morality and modesty are considered backwards, and indecency and nudity are considered progress and enlightenment.

What if an argument were to be made in the exact opposite vein? That people who feel they must show skin, and dress in a provocative manner, are themselves slaves to the ever-changing norms of society and to the false gods of fashion?

From a purely philosophical and intellectual standpoint, it's a two-way street, and just as she wishes to argue that Muslims are brainwashed, one could just as easily argue that it is her ilk who are brainwashed.

Who will be the judge?
"Surely, the One who has created knows what is best. For indeed He is the Knower of Hidden Affairs, the One Aware of all" [Tabarak: 14].

Our Creator knows what is best for us, and in one aspect I do agree with this racist pompous supercilious patronizing xenophobe: all Muslims are indeed slaves, and we're proud of it. We are all slaves unto Allah, and we humble ourselves before Him.

- Yasir Qadhi

Read the article here: http://www.france24.com/en/20160330-...s?dlvrit=66745

[Hamza :)]

wow what nonsense

the hate is real

[BeTheChange]

She sees subordination.

Muslim women and me see liberation. Alhamdulilah.

She's basically saying those who cover up must be freed as they don't see the oppression the hijaab brings.

Such double standards. Talking about 'freedom' and then dictating what women should & shouldn't do.

[Muezzin]

So by this Minister's logic, are nuns Uncle Toms, too?

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[M.I.A.]

Here's your McDonalds uniform, report to the manager.

But seriously...

A jobs a job.

[noraina]

Assalamu Alaykum,

What frustrates me is when I am told, 'You do not realise but you are being brainwashed into thinking you have a choice when you don't'. Like oh my gosh, I have been brainwashed and I do not even know? And the problem with the people of this mentality is that they will never understand - they will listen to you pityingly as they have convinced themselves that Muslim women have been brainwashed into wearing the hijab and following their religion and our every word is a result of that. It is such a circular argument - you think you have a choice but you don't as you don't know you didn't have a choice. ^o)

[M.I.A.]

No..hh..mus..resis...t..

Can't see past the veil I suppose...


:/

I'll get me coat... If it's any consolation I'm often the butt of bad jokes.. Probably.

Have patience and perseverance.. Those are the choices other people make.

[azc]

Such indecent comments about a particular community by a person who holds a respectable office in a country are beyond civility. Such people should learn to be civilised and well mannered. This type of encroachment in personal life of citizens can't be liked by any sane person.

[sister herb]

Opposite, still as stupid conclusion would to be say that women whose don´t wear themselves with propriety in public, support prostitute but I don´t say it as it´s as silly like this opinion of that minister.

[GodIsAll]

Ah, Muezzin, hard to argue with that one!

[truthseeker63]

How can she compare Hijabs to Slavery ?

[noraina]

How can she compare Hijabs to Slavery ?

In the sense of being a 'slave' to men and to religion. Many non-Muslims claim this is a sign of subjugation towards men who have no self-control and hence pressurise women to observe hijab. :hmm: Makes no sense to me. I more think women are slaves to the modern fashion industry which asks them to conform to unnatural standards of beauty and only objectifies them.

Some people think that Western culture is the only 'mainstream' and every other way of life or tradition or culture is backward and stuck in the middle ages. It is this ethnocentric viewpoint which makes people say things like this - it is different so it is wrong.
But in Islam as long as it doesn't go against the teachings of Allah, no culture is wrong or more superior to another, even Western countries have their positive points some Muslim nations could learn from. :D

[sister herb]

How can she compare Hijabs to Slavery ?

Many Muslim men have a beard. I am waiting when some French minister will compare having the beard and slavery.

[greenhill]

Perhaps it's time to turn the tables around...

To now accuse them of being brainwashed!

They have been! All the advertising and the media coverage and hollywood films has worked! They have fallen victim to propaganda and the worst part is that they have ALSO been successfully sealed in their brainwashed state by now 'believing' the propaganda and seriously think that your wish NOT to participate in their quest of an illusion is oppression. Actually, it is them who have cave in to oppression of the men.. we love it when they act silly. The devil in us will test our imaan.. it is a win - win situation for Satan.


:peace:

[Pygoscelis]

I agree. We should be listening to the muslima women themselves, and not to our own biases and preconceived ideas.

I wonder though, while I strongly support a muslima's right to wear what she wants (as well as a man to wear a turban or long beard or whatever he wants), how many of you here would join me in also supporting the rights of nudists to wear what they want (nothing at all)?

[Bhabha]

The issue with France, is that since Muslims unfortunately have come to imply certain things in the political imaginary of European society, women who wear the hijab are submitting themselves to being seen through the 'political imaginary' of what the Muslim has come to imply. For most of the part, it is the implicaiton that Muslims are 'backwards, socially inferior and immigrants' and as such if a woman chooses, regardless of her background to attest that she is a Muslim despite the connotations implied to the Muslim identity, that she is allowing her identity to be defined as what is defined as a Muslim. So the French minister links that with the similarity of a black slave, permitting slavery.

[truthseeker63]

Thank you for sharing the link.

[sister herb]

So the French minister links that with the similarity of a black slave, permitting slavery.

I wonder did he realized how racist his way of thinking is as he talked about black slaves? How just black people would to be slaves? Or is this the European way to see slavery? Propably this minister has forgotten all those European women whose live also in France as sex slaves. It should to be bigger problem to women´s affairs minister than hunting Muslim women.

[Bhabha]

I wonder did he realized how racist his way of thinking is as he talked about black slaves? How just black people would to be slaves? Or is this the European way to see slavery? Propably this minister has forgotten all those European women whose live also in France as sex slaves. It should to be bigger problem to women´s affairs minister than hunting Muslim women.

Unfortunately France is an imperial power house. Whose history with the Haitian and Algerian revolution are both still lurking in the imagination and guides their construction of people. :/

[sister herb]

I agree. We should be listening to the muslima women themselves, and not to our own biases and preconceived ideas.

I wonder though, while I strongly support a muslima's right to wear what she wants (as well as a man to wear a turban or long beard or whatever he wants), how many of you here would join me in also supporting the rights of nudists to wear what they want (nothing at all)?

As trying to be honest and equal, I have to admit that if we wish to receive fair treatment to ourselves we also should be ready to protect rights of others...

:embarrass

[anatolian]

I agree. We should be listening to the muslima women themselves, and not to our own biases and preconceived ideas.

I wonder though, while I strongly support a muslima's right to wear what she wants (as well as a man to wear a turban or long beard or whatever he wants), how many of you here would join me in also supporting the rights of nudists to wear what they want (nothing at all)?

Peace friend. They can wear what they want in their own community but when it comes to public, they cant do this. The freedom of someone ends where it disturbs the freedom of another one. Seeing naked people disgusts people generally.

[Bhabha]

As trying to be honest and equal, I have to admit that if we wish to receive fair treatment to ourselves we also should be ready to protect rights of others...

:embarrass

I think I heard somewhere that some parts of the USA are allowing men to enter female washrooms. Because they identify with the female gender ?

[Bhabha]

Peace friend. They can wear what they want in their own community but when it comes to public, they cant do this. The freedom of someone ends where it disturbs the freedom of another one. Seeing naked people disgusts people generally.

The counter argument could be made that women who wear the hijab / niqab feel disgusted by that too. [emoji24][emoji24][emoji24][emoji24][emoji24]

[sister herb]

^^ I think it means the transgender people. Some of those might be changing their gender. Discussing about them in Islamic perspective would to be interesting but I think it deserves it´s own thread.

[Bhabha]

^^ I think it means the transgender people. Some of those might be changing their gender. Discussing about them in Islamic perspective would to be interesting but I think it deserves it´s own thread.

I would like to hear this. Would you make it ? [emoji851][emoji851][emoji851][emoji851][emoji18]

[sister herb]

The counter argument could be made that women who wear the hijab / niqab feel disgusted by that too. [emoji24][emoji24][emoji24][emoji24][emoji24]

That´s right. Many say this when they try to limit the right´s of Muslim women to wear as they wish. But when we are living in same society together, we have to find some amount of tolerance to accept the differences of others.

[anatolian]

The counter argument could be made that women who wear the hijab / niqab feel disgusted by that too. [emoji24][emoji24][emoji24][emoji24][emoji24]

Salam sis. Yes, if wearing hijab or niqab feels most of the people that way "disgusting" or "disturbing their freedom" in a community then they should not wear hijab or niqab in that community.

However, I dont know any community on the earth that feels it about at least for hijab. People in non-muslim or even in secular muslim communities generally think that way for niqab.

[Pygoscelis]

Peace friend. They can wear what they want in their own community but when it comes to public, they cant do this. The freedom of someone ends where it disturbs the freedom of another one. Seeing naked people disgusts people generally.

Seeing people dressed from head to toe in giant black sacks also disgusts and disturbs a lot of people, such as those mentioned in the OP. I can allow for both, and I note the hypocrisy on either side that won't allow for the other. I can also speak directly with both groups and dispel the myths and preconceptions about them. For example, nudism isn't about sex anymore than burkas are about repression.

[sister herb]

I would like to hear this. Would you make it ? [emoji851][emoji851][emoji851][emoji851][emoji18]

Here has been already discussions about this subject like this one:

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ht=transgender

Unfortunately some times kind of discussions mix concepts like transgender to transsexuality and homosexuality and then the discussions goes to mess (and mods close them at the end). :nervous:

[Bhabha]

Seeing people dressed from head to toe in giant black sacks also disgusts and disturbs a lot of people, such as those mentioned in the OP. I can allow for both, and I note the hypocrisy on either side that won't allow for the other. I can also speak directly with both groups and dispel the myths and preconceptions about them. For example, nudism isn't about sex anymore than burkas are about repression.

Are you referring to abayas? I wear these plastic bags.

What is nudism about ?

[Pygoscelis]

Are you referring to abayas? I wear these plastic bags.

What is nudism about ?

I was refering to burkas. Many closed minded people have a very visceral reaction of disgust and discomfort to them.... just as many have a visceral reaction of disgust to nudity.

Most nudists I have met consider nudism to be about the freedom to be as they were born/created, without covering anything up, to bathe and relax under the sun and feel the wind and sunrays upon their skin. Some of them even consider it a religious experience (the hippy types). Being the liberal and adventurous person that I am, I have visited them in a nudist resort, and I was surprised just how non-sexual it all was and how very quickly I forgot I and others were nude. Once the social taboo is absent, the mindset completely changes.

The only real concern I have for nudism is sanitary, just as the only real concern I have for muslimas covering their faces is security. There are situations where these concerns are relevant or even paramount (ie, naked people on a crowded bus, or muslima getting a photo driver ID), but for the most part where these people want to do their thing, they are not.

[anatolian]

Seeing people dressed from head to toe in giant black sacks also disgusts and disturbs a lot of people, such as those mentioned in the OP. I can allow for both, and I note the hypocrisy on either side that won't allow for the other. I can also speak directly with both groups and dispel the myths and preconceptions about them. For example, nudism isn't about sex anymore than burkas are about repression.

Peace Pygoscelis. If the majority in a society feels that seeing people dressed from head to toe in giant black sacks in that way "disturbs their freedom" then yes those people should not wear it. But there is a very tiny border here. If seeing a woman wearing hijab or niqab or burka or whatever she wears makes people annoying because they think it is an oppression on women doesnt mean that it disturbs their freedom. They may get on well with those women in public. But living with naked people in the same society disturbs my freedom of travelling. I will not go to the places where I may see those naked people.

Once I have been to Barcelona, Spain. The city has a long beach from one side to another side of the city and I saw naked people on that publicly open beach. I felt disgusted and didnt want go there. This disturbed my freedom of going somewhere. But it seems that this doesnt disturb the majority of Barcelonians for they allow public nudity over there. But I think if you go around naked in the Vatican city it will disturb the majority of people living there. So you cant be naked in that city.

[Pygoscelis]

^ So by that logic why complain about a ban on head veils in France? It isn't Saudi Arabia (where such things are accepted). It is France.

[anatolian]

^ So by that logic why complain about a ban on head veils in France? It isn't Saudi Arabia (where such things are accepted). It is France.

And this is another dimension of this discussion. Does that ban in France come from the majority of French society or is it just a dictation of a group of elected elites? If the first one, yes mulim women in France must obey that law, but if the second no they dont have to obey it and keep their rights.

[sister herb]

Banning head veils in France from Muslim women doesn´t sound that it would respect the equality in the society. They should instead make the law that not any person is allowed to cover their hairs in public by any kind of way, including hats. But how this would work that soon the government decides every details about dressing by laws? Sooner or later there should to be special laws how every person in France have to dress. The unique French uniform to everyone?

Regulations and restrictions relate to a single group of people seems to be against human rights agreements as well the basics of sense.

[anatolian]

Banning head veils in France from Muslim women doesn´t sound that it would respect the equality in the society. They should instead make the law that not any person is allowed to cover their hairs in public by any kind of way, including hats. But how this would work that soon the government decides every details about dressing by laws? Sooner or later there should to be special laws how every person in France have to dress. The unique French uniform to everyone?

Regulations and restrictions relate to a single group of people seems to be against human rights agreements as well the basics of sense.

Salam sis. You are right if it restricts only a group of people but I think the situation in France is about security. Covering face hides the identity. Head scarves are not disallowed in France as far as I know.

[sister herb]

Well, the head scarf ban will be the next step.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...s-manuel-valls

The French prime minister, Manuel Valls, has sparked controversy by suggesting the Muslim headscarf should be banned in universities and that a majority of French people think Islam is incompatible with the values of the Republic.

"Liberté, égalité, fraternité" or how it went...

[Bhabha]

Salam sis. You are right if it restricts only a group of people but I think the situation in France is about security. Covering face hides the identity. Head scarves are not disallowed in France as far as I know.

Nothing to do with security. It has to do with the insecurity of the French to recognize a changing population. As well as the insecurity of the French in recognizing that Islam is no longer relegated to the exterior of French society.

[Bhabha]

Well, the head scarf ban will be the next step.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...s-manuel-valls



"Liberté, égalité, fraternité" or how it went...

French society has never been about recognizing these things unfortunately. Right after the French did their whole French Revolution, their Haitian colony underwent revolution too and they failed to recognize the rights of the Haitian people to emancipate themselves. Thinking them less capable of worthy [emoji24][emoji24][emoji24][emoji24][emoji174]

However. The more Europe makes restrictions against Islam. The more people convert as a result and ironically the stronger Muslim identity tends to become as women assert their rights to be Muslim :)

[noraina]

However. The more Europe makes restrictions against Islam. The more people convert as a result and ironically the stronger Muslim identity tends to become as women assert their rights to be Muslim

This so true subhanAllah. What happens is when Islam is given such negative media coverage, many people decide to investigate this claim for themselves and in the process discover the true beauty of the Deen. Gosh, the irony!

And the headscarf is banned in all public buildings, most infamously including schools. Any Muslim girls are forbidden from wearing the hijab in school premises.

[anatolian]

Nothing to do with security. It has to do with the insecurity of the French to recognize a changing population. As well as the insecurity of the French in recognizing that Islam is no longer relegated to the exterior of French society.

OK. I am not living in France. If you think it is the case....

[Bhabha]

OK. I am not living in France. If you think it is the case...

I apologize if I sounded harsh. [emoji24] I did not mean to.

Just really not liking France at the moment. They have always been double faced about these issues.

[anatolian]

I apologize if I sounded harsh. [emoji24] I did not mean to.

Just really not liking France at the moment. They have always been double faced about these issues.

No, nothing wrong with your expression. But these things can be mixed up easily..What do you mean with "France" or "They" . Do you think the ban of veils come from the ruling class or is it a general opinion of the French society?

[sister herb]

And the headscarf is banned in all public buildings, most infamously including schools. Any Muslim girls are forbidden from wearing the hijab in school premises.

This might lead to the situations that Muslims girls don´t go to the public schools as often than at the nowadays. Islamic communities will build their own Islamic schools for girls only and when at the same time the society talks about the needs to integrate religious and enthnic minorities to the society, it by its own laws and bans makes it even more difficult than it´s now.

At the same time sociologists and other experts are talking how important the integration is as the way of prevent isolation of etchnic groups and by that way prevent the terrorism. Talking about how those people don´t just fit to the French society and with different kinds of bans they only gives to some people the message that they aren´t welcomed. And this will leads to the isolation...

I see some kind of vicous circle with all of this.

[sister herb]

^^ This similar discussion is nowadays in many European countries, not only in France. Like I have seen it odd in my country when people claim that Muslim immigrants don´t fit to the society which follows the Christian values. Then when the church told they will support and help the refugees and asylum seekers, same people have resigned from the church as the protest. Why? Just because the church adheres to Christian values in this case.

:heated:

[noraina]

This whole point has been very controversial in England as well, that the Muslim youth in particular do not make enough efforts to integrate with wider society, are not 'British' enough and are creating 'closed' communities.

I have no idea where they get these statistics from. All of my Muslim friends and myself included are proud British citizens Alhamdulillah, we love our English accents :D, our parents vote in the elections - granted I do not exactly agree with the foreign policy of this country but nonetheless if I ever went to live anywhere in the world I would always want to come back here.

What creates problems is when people start complaining Muslims should go back home (Trump ideology). Why should I go? Why must people say you cannot be Muslim and British at the same time? I honestly cannot see the conflict between the two so it seems some people see the need to shout out how Muslims are the 'other'. I mean Alhamdulillah the UK is still very tolerant compared to France but when these issues crop up it is so annoying.
And then those delusional teenagers running away to ISIS aren't exactly helping either tbh. :hmm:

[anatolian]

^^ This similar discussion is nowadays in many European countries, not only in France. Like I have seen it odd in my country when people claim that Muslim immigrants don´t fit to the society which follows the Christian values. Then when the church told they will support and help the refugees and asylum seekers, same people have resigned from the church as the protest. Why? Just because the church adheres to Christian values in this case.

:heated:

I dont see any correlation between these two. That one is about helping people who are in need, but the above discussion is about the freedoms in society. If those refugees in your country do not respect the values of Finns then those Finns are right to think so. But if it is that they think those refugees are not living like Christians then it is wrong. Because it is about religious freedom.

[sister herb]

It´s the same discussion in here and in France as well in many European countries. Difference is that here politicians don´t try to make bans of hijabs etc.

[Serinity]

I agree. We should be listening to the muslima women themselves, and not to our own biases and preconceived ideas.

I wonder though, while I strongly support a muslima's right to wear what she wants (as well as a man to wear a turban or long beard or whatever he wants), how many of you here would join me in also supporting the rights of nudists to wear what they want (nothing at all)?

No, we should not let nudists go naked.

Only people without a sense of morality would allow that.

And no, you using my statement as a cardboard against me, doesn't detract from the truth/reality.

What I am saying is, do you think people should be allowed to have intercourse on the street?

There is a limit to 'freedom'. you may wear as much clothes you want to, but you can't walk naked. Only someone devoid of morality would say that.

Should we allow people to agree to suicide? If 2 people agree to kill eachother, should we allow that? No. Sadly, the more materialstic you get, the more blind you get to certain stuff.
It is disgusting and immodest to go naked outside in public.

I will never support nudist going naked in public. Just as I will never support transgenders or homosexuals. They may cry or moan however much they want, I will never support immorality and sinning.

[Pygoscelis]

Why must people say you cannot be Muslim and British at the same time? I honestly cannot see the conflict between the two so it seems some people see the need to shout out how Muslims are the 'other'.

This and mentalities like it are the best case I can make to answer your question:

I will never support nudist going naked in public. Just as I will never support transgenders or homosexuals. They may cry or moan however much they want, I will never support immorality and sinning.

noraina, you may have difficulty being British or French or Canadian and Muslim at the same time if your adherence to Islam comes before your identity and loyalty to your nation. There can be a conflict. Serenity's example and hypocrisy (wanting non-muslims to respect muslims and benign muslim behaviour they are not comfortable with, while disrespecting and denying rights to the homosexual and transgendered due to Islamic beliefs) shows why I wouldn't want mass immigration of Muslims of his sort to Canada. Unfortunately we can't screen everybody (and expect honest answers) as they apply to immigrate, so blanket rules applying to all muslims may start to gain an air or reasonableness.... and people like Donald Trump then twist and exagerate to the point of wanting to ban all muslims. I would not ban all muslims, but I do wish to maintain the moral and societal progress my country has made, and there is a real conflict between the current British/French/Canadian values and Islamic values.

Imagine if Saudi Arabia was a democracy. Would you not be alarmed if millions of Christians or Atheists (or nudists) moved there, with very different and un-islamic or anti-islamic views? This is the same reason that Israel has (and the only legitimate reason, amongst a dozen illegitimate reasons) for not integrating Palestinians into one joined democratic country.

[sister herb]

Surely some French see hijabi ladies on the streets as a threat to traditional French way of life but by the same way through the ages also older generations have seen younger generations and their new habits and values as similar threats to their traditions and they have said how they will destroy the moral of the society. Would the world be better if new generations wouldn´t never change anything but we still follow the same ways of life and moral habits like our great grandparents? The world is changing all the time, people move like they have moved during the history of the mankind and surely this kind of moral irritation because of the strange habits has continued during the centuries.

[sister herb]

I don´t think that only Muslims are so "old-fashioned" that they don´t accept the idea of nudism, specially the public nudism. It´s quite common way to think in this world. Or is here any country where public nudism would to be legal or at the least generally accepted moral norm?

[noraina]

But in order to be British or French or Canadian must one have to accept and indeed, agree with, everything that country may have in its legal system or society? I do not think so. I mentioned before I disagree with some parts of British foreign policy, I also believe that nudity (which btw many non-Muslims find objectionable) and homosexuality are wrong. Does that mean I am not British? If this is the case, every political dissenter or opposition party is also not British. I do not think that either. I said before I do believe Muslim nations would do well to learn from Western countries in some aspects.
You may have heard that Sayeeda Warsi, a British politician, resigned from her position because she objected against Britain's position concerning Palestine - that does not make her any less a British citizen, even if she disagrees with the government's central standpoint.
On an ethnic or racial sense, I do not agree with everything in Afghan culture - but I am still proud to be of Afghani descent.
In Islam there is this branch of Islamic law called 'urf' or 'local customs'. Our foremost loyalty is only to Allah SWT, but as long as they do not contradict the teachings of Islam, a Muslim is permitted to, and in fact encouraged to, follow the law of the land or the accepted customs in a specific nation.
I see a greater hypocrisy in the way a nation will permit homosexuality or even nudity while forbidding women to wear the hijab or niqab, so much for freedom for all.

[sister herb]

I mentioned before I disagree with some parts of British foreign policy, I also believe that nudity and homosexuality are
wrong. Does that mean I am not British?

There is no legal practice which would force citizens of some country to accept their country´s foreign policy. Maybe in some countries it´s better be quiet if you don´t accept it but they are usually called as dictatorships. Persons whose claims that everyone have to accept the countries foreign policy etc. what the government decides, might not want that their country would calls as the dictatorship.

What then if some Christian British for example disagrees with the government? Is he then also a non-British? Then all the political opposition is in the same position...

[noraina]

Perhaps I understand why some find the niqab intimidating, but what on earth is so offensive about a woman with a piece of cloth wrapped around her head? Where I live nuns are walking up and down the street in their flowing robes and heads covered and don't even get a second glance. To see a woman with her head covered and in long robes should be quite an acceptable sight, especially in Western countries. Unlike homosexuality or nudity, which, for the most part, have been illegal and looked down on in Western culture for centuries. It should be easy to adjust to the hijab and abaya, so why the controversy?

Tbh for me the reasons do not have a moral basis - rather one of racism and politics.

[Serinity]

This and mentalities like it are the best case I can make to answer your question:



noraina, you may have difficulty being British or French or Canadian and Muslim at the same time if your adherence to Islam comes before your identity and loyalty to your nation. There can be a conflict. Serenity's example and hypocrisy (wanting non-muslims to respect muslims and benign muslim behaviour they are not comfortable with, while disrespecting and denying rights to the homosexual and transgendered due to Islamic beliefs) shows why I wouldn't want mass immigration of Muslims of his sort to Canada. Unfortunately we can't screen everybody (and expect honest answers) as they apply to immigrate, so blanket rules applying to all muslims may start to gain an air or reasonableness.... and people like Donald Trump then twist and exagerate to the point of wanting to ban all muslims. I would not ban all muslims, but I do wish to maintain the moral and societal progress my country has made, and there is a real conflict between the current British/French/Canadian values and Islamic values.

Imagine if Saudi Arabia was a democracy. Would you not be alarmed if millions of Christians or Atheists (or nudists) moved there, with very different and un-islamic or anti-islamic views? This is the same reason that Israel has (and the only legitimate reason, amongst a dozen illegitimate reasons) for not integrating Palestinians into one joined democratic country.

It isn't really hypocrisy.. It is common sense.

Would you tolerate rapists walking around? No. 100% equality is unrealistic. I won't support / tolerate rapists, or people mutually having intercourse down the street. It is detrimental to the wellbeing of one's morality. Children will become confused etc. It is a disease.

Idc about being british, or canadian or whatever. Just as Idc about being a Nazi, or German.

[Bhabha]

This and mentalities like it are the best case I can make to answer your question:



noraina, you may have difficulty being British or French or Canadian and Muslim at the same time if your adherence to Islam comes before your identity and loyalty to your nation. There can be a conflict. Serenity's example and hypocrisy (wanting non-muslims to respect muslims and benign muslim behaviour they are not comfortable with, while disrespecting and denying rights to the homosexual and transgendered due to Islamic beliefs) shows why I wouldn't want mass immigration of Muslims of his sort to Canada. Unfortunately we can't screen everybody (and expect honest answers) as they apply to immigrate, so blanket rules applying to all muslims may start to gain an air or reasonableness.... and people like Donald Trump then twist and exagerate to the point of wanting to ban all muslims. I would not ban all muslims, but I do wish to maintain the moral and societal progress my country has made, and there is a real conflict between the current British/French/Canadian values and Islamic values.

Imagine if Saudi Arabia was a democracy. Would you not be alarmed if millions of Christians or Atheists (or nudists) moved there, with very different and un-islamic or anti-islamic views? This is the same reason that Israel has (and the only legitimate reason, amongst a dozen illegitimate reasons) for not integrating Palestinians into one joined democratic country.

You are under the assumption that Muslims immigrate all of the time. The Muslim is not just an immigrant. And the view that Muslims are just immigrants is what creates disparities for converts who choose to exercise their religious freedom that is so espoused and protected in the name of Liberty by Western democracies. Do not confuse the sudden rush of Syrian refugees who are not all Muslim, as the migration of Islam into Europe, Canada or the United States.

On the note of Islam and Europe. Islam has been part of Europe for more than 800 years. It is not recent. It is not new. Islam has been residing longer in Europe than the Americas have been colonized by the British, the Spaniards or the colonized Australian continent. It was not the Muslims who forced Islam into Spain. But who offered protection to Christians and Jewish people in need of protection and who initially established trading routes with Europe with the trading systems of Asia.

Me thinks you need to take a look at the historical realities of Islam in the context of Europe. Yes Islam did go into Spain. But the fact is that many scholars define the relation of Islam with Spain to be one of harmony and one that was conducive to the many advancements we often assume to be internal to the European society. Read Americo Castro for example and I will also have my dissertation posted when I am done with it about this. Non Muslim scholars if I may add.

For the Europeans and Americans and western countries to deny the exercise of religious freedom in their own backyards is a serious disregard for their own values. The values which they have tried to forcibly implement down the throats of other countries. In the case of France and the burka. If the argument of France is that it is trying to protect its values and it society. Then the assumption would be that they would also do the same to others. However their reason for invading Afghanistan and validating the invasion was so that France could "liberate" Afghanistan women while disregarding the complicated society that Afghanistan is due to foreign invasion. This is called political and logical myopia.

On a further note. Saudi Arabia has a massive amount of Christians. But the requirement to wear the abaya is not something randomly imposed or arbitrary. It had been there for a long long time and it is there to protect women from the massive amounts of foreign male workers as well. The regulations of Saudi stipulate that sexual inter course outside of marriage or sexual displays in public are banned for both couples regardless of whether they are Muslim or non Muslim. Saudi has never recognized homosexual marriage so therefore the stipulation would be that homosexuals can be homosexuals without sexual inter course and still function in Saudi society since sex is a private matter in the first place. There are probably members of the LGTB community in Saudi who live there and are Saudi. But who know that sex is illegal in the first place and punishable. It is not a random punishment but one known and inscribed in law. There is no need to politicize and thus make the issue visible.

The ban on the hijab in France however is random. The ban on the veil in Europe is random since Europe defines itself through the conscious decision of human agency. Through human emancipation. Through the freedom of expression and Liberty. But refuses to allow this to Muslim women who consciously decide to define themselves as Muslims and as such is unwarranted and hypocritical.

(If there are spelling mistakes. I apologize my phone autocorrects)[emoji24][emoji24][emoji24][emoji24][emoji24]

[Bhabha]

No, nothing wrong with your expression. But these things can be mixed up easily..What do you mean with "France" or "They" . Do you think the ban of veils come from the ruling class or is it a general opinion of the French society?

Well in order to have a ban approved. The veil needs to become a public issue. So it needs to be politicized and made into a public issue. Most likely by politics or by legislations that sort of inculcate this desire to implement a ban.

There is a really good book by social psychologist Daniel Kahneman that talks about the psychology of public policy and how people are first primed (basically brainwashed) about the horrors of something and then policies are implemented that seem to make sense in the minds of those who have been primed. Its not just politics. But the entire system and the institutions are slowly set up to allow this public opinion. Tv shows for example. Marketing.

Quite interesting. [emoji39]

[Pygoscelis]

I don´t think that only Muslims are so "old-fashioned" that they don´t accept the idea of nudism, specially the public nudism. It´s quite common way to think in this world. Or is here any country where public nudism would to be legal or at the least generally accepted moral norm?

It varies from place to place. In Ontario it is legal for women to go topless, for example (though few do). Nude beaches are all across europe, and we have one in Toronto as well.

My point though was that I see little basis to discriminate against one group based on clothing and not against another. If muslimas in France want to be accepted wearing burkas, in a place where people find that disturbing, why shouldn't the nudists also be accepted in places that are disturbed by nudity? If we are to allow community norms to dictate, then you have no basis to complain when such norms dictate against your religious practices or garments.

[Pygoscelis]

Perhaps I understand why some find the niqab intimidating, but what on earth is so offensive about a woman with a piece of cloth wrapped around her head?

I could never figure that out either. I think it is more bigotry once get that benign. But full on burkas, yes, they make me uncomfortable to be around. I have seen these people walking down the street in downtown Toronto and I find it much more disturbing than I would naked people walking down the street. So why should we make one legal and the other not?

[Pygoscelis]

It isn't really hypocrisy.. It is common sense.

Would you tolerate rapists walking around? No. 100% equality is unrealistic. I won't support / tolerate rapists, or people mutually having intercourse down the street. It is detrimental to the wellbeing of one's morality. Children will become confused etc. It is a disease.

You need to understand that the way you feel about nudists, trans, and gay people is the same way some people feel about muslims. If they are bigots and haters... then guess what... you are too. They find you just as vile and immoral, indeed comparing Islam to a disease of the mind. I encounter these people a lot on the christian forum I visit. It isn't a very socially constructive or cooperative sort of outlook.

[Bhabha]

Burkas and niqabs are different. I used to wear niqab until I was threatened and asked to go back home. So asked the person if they were indigenous to Canada and they couldn't reply lol. I said. If you are not an indigenous member. You should also go home to wherever you came from.

Then the other day someone takes a random picture of me. I wear full abaya and hijab but the person decided to take a picture of my face in public. Whose privacy and rights are being abused when people decide to take pictures and snap women and then post these in social media? I think my rights are being abused. However because I apparently make people feel uncomfortable I am supposed to remove my niqab and let them snap pictures of me like an animal in a zoo.

[Serinity]

You need to understand that the way you feel about nudists, trans, and gay people is the same way some people feel about muslims. If they are bigots and haters... then guess what... you are too. They find you just as vile and immoral, indeed comparing Islam to a disease of the mind. I encounter these people a lot on the christian forum I visit. It isn't a very socially constructive or cooperative sort of outlook.

So do you, from what I've read of your posts.

There is no way I am ever going to tolerate nudes, ever. I will never want to be near them, ever. This is not the same as having different clothings on - it is disgusting.

Should we now also tolerate child killers / molesters?

It is detrimental to the sound mind to see nude people on the street. I can't take it. I won't tolerate it. Just because you 'want to' doesn't mean you can.

Just like I may really want to rob the bank, I can't.

[anatolian]

Or you can wait until a Muslim army conquer France :)

[Bhabha]

Or you can wait until a Muslim army conquer France :)

This. [emoji39][emoji39][emoji39][emoji39][emoji39][emoji39][emoji39]

Islam is back. Back again. Islam is back. Tell your friends. [emoji39]

[Serinity]

Or you can wait until a Muslim army conquer France :)

Just like the Ottoman Empire? :)

[MuhammadIbrahim]

I heard that an Algerian Millionaire has invited all the Muslim women in France to bravely wear their veils because he is always ready to pay their fees in case they are arrested and sent to police stations.

[MuhammadIbrahim]

I am sorry, I should have said 'fines' instead of 'fees'.

[anatolian]

:D

[MuhammadIbrahim]

May Allah The Almighty reward him for that noble deed.

[Bhabha]

I heard that an Algerian Millionaire has invited all the Muslim women in France to bravely wear their veils because he is always ready to pay their fees in case they are arrested and sent to police stations.

Where is that millionaire ?

Also maybe France is running some kind of debt and needs money from the richer Muslims ? [emoji39][emoji39][emoji39][emoji39][emoji39][emoji39][emoji39][emoji39][emoji39][emoji39][emoji38]

[MuhammadIbrahim]

I'll search or his name and inform you, sister Bahbaha.

[noraina]

I heard that an Algerian Millionaire has invited all the Muslim women in France to bravely wear their veils because he is always ready to pay their fees in case they are arrested and sent to police stations.

I have heard that as well. May Allah bless him for supporting his sisters. :)

[IrfanUllahKhan]

Here argument can be reversed on her.

She says Muslim women are brain washed to wear hijab.

I can say that Western women are actually brain washed to think that getting naked is "Freedom". Getting naked is actually dancing to the tune of the corrupt society that wants you to show your body!!!

[anatolian]

Just like the Ottoman Empire? :)

Yes...

Burkas and niqabs are different. I used to wear niqab until I was threatened and asked to go back home. So asked the person if they were indigenous to Canada and they couldn't reply lol. I said. If you are not an indigenous member. You should also go home to wherever you came from.

Then the other day someone takes a random picture of me. I wear full abaya and hijab but the person decided to take a picture of my face in public. Whose privacy and rights are being abused when people decide to take pictures and snap women and then post these in social media? I think my rights are being abused. However because I apparently make people feel uncomfortable I am supposed to remove my niqab and let them snap pictures of me like an animal in a zoo.

This one has just boiled my ottoman blood... :raging::raging:

[Bhabha]

Yes...



This one has just boiled my ottoman blood... :raging::raging:

Me too! >_<
With cameras snap snap snapping everywhere, I don't want my face snapped! >_> The only picture wandering around is the picture of me for my school! :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

I see some poor Muslimah's who get their faces snapped in public and posted on sites... It really bothers me, then they wonder why the niqab. I wouldn't care having my face snapped with the niqab on... just don't snap my face @_@

[MuhammadIbrahim]

Ameen!
People comment on that news saying, 'The Man Who Beats a Country,

[MuhammadIbrahim]

Dear Pygoscelis,
Talking about respecting people's freedom of wearing whatever they want is great, indeed. You were talking about respecting nudity similarly to respecting wearing veils and beards or thobes. Well, I want you to notice something very simple; human beings have worn clothes since mankind appeared on the Earth, no doubt, but animals have never worn clothes, have they?
Allah The Almighty have created man and elevated them over all other animals species.
I hope I could answered your question fairly.

[Serinity]

Those who go naked in public, are worse than animals, tbh. Cuz they have reason, yet still behave like animals - animals don't have reason at least. Yet we have.

[Abz2000]

Here's your McDonalds uniform, report to the manager.

But seriously...

A jobs a job.

Nice observation m.i.
According to the logic, people who wear mcdonalds uniforms, police uniforms, school uniforms, and soldiers uniforms, or comply with a dress code must also be slaves in bondage to their respective handlers and institutions.
capital worship and being overwhelmed in usury is slavery anyway, they give them uniforms or tell them to buy them or have them made themselves, and are able to count to a tee how many hours of work they'll juice out of male and female population on any given day of the year.
Assembly line cogs.

[sister herb]

Those who go naked in public, are worse than animals, tbh. Cuz they have reason, yet still behave like animals - animals don't have reason at least. Yet we have.

Remember that some native tribes (like Huaorani people) still live in their societies in the South America and don´t use clothes or use very minimal amount of them. It´s not good manner to call them as "animals". Similar tribes also lives in other parts of the world. They are as humans like we are, not mindless animals.

I understand your dislike about the nudism but calm down a little, please.

[sister herb]

Or you can wait until a Muslim army conquer France :)

I prefer that Islam will spread to France by peacefull ways, not because of some conquest army.

Just my opinion.

[Pygoscelis]

Dear Pygoscelis,
Talking about respecting people's freedom of wearing whatever they want is great, indeed. You were talking about respecting nudity similarly to respecting wearing veils and beards or thobes. Well, I want you to notice something very simple; human beings have worn clothes since mankind appeared on the Earth, no doubt, but animals have never worn clothes, have they?
Allah The Almighty have created man and elevated them over all other animals species.
I hope I could answered your question fairly.

Humans began wearing clothing due to the weather, as it allowed humans to move into colder and more harsh climates. Clothing is also useful for sanitation. It had nothing to do with shame, etc. And there is nothing to be ashamed of being naked. That is a taboo that we invented in human societies that is best done away with.

Also, humans are not the only species to wear clothes. Hermit crabs don't have shells of their own, so they use the empty shells of molluscs. Cadis fly larva cases itself in coats of small stones.

[sister herb]

^^ Well, I have to agree with that weather part. You don´t see many nudist here on the streets (neither on the beach) at the middle of winter when temperature is under -15 C and freezing wind comes from the Artic Ocean. Woolen hijab is much better choice then.

;D

[Serinity]

Remember that some native tribes (like Huaorani people) still live in their societies in the South America and don´t use clothes or use very minimal amount of them. It´s not good manner to call them as "animals". Similar tribes also lives in other parts of the world. They are as humans like we are, not mindless animals.

I understand your dislike about the nudism but calm down a little, please.

I am not calling them mindless animals. Just that to do so would make them worse than animals, in the sense that they fail to use reason. Although they are still humans. We are not animals, therefore we should not act like animals, either.

Besides supporting nudism would mean supporting immorality, which would mean supporting corruption.

[Abz2000]

Humans began wearing clothing due to the weather, as it allowed humans to move into colder and more harsh climates. Clothing is also useful for sanitation. It had nothing to do with shame, etc. And there is nothing to be ashamed of being naked. That is a taboo that we invented in human societies that is best done away with.

Also, humans are not the only species to wear clothes. Hermit crabs don't have shells of their own, so they use the empty shells of molluscs. Cadis fly larva cases itself in coats of small stones.

Pygo, long time no speak, always amusing to hear your arguments on the nudity side and always love to facwpalm :)

Pygo, if you believe the evolutionary explanation for the way things were made to develop, you should be the last to make such a claim, if indeed species were made to develop from gasseous water (which the Quran confirms) which later developed into mud etc, then human predecessors would have discarded natural fur via a process of artificial skin wearing such as animal hide, and they would likely have worn it in the heat too for the natural hair to feel a need to make itself scarce, just as they would have opted to discard claws for more hand movement and agility, and opted for the more long term intelligent option which is highly developed brains, and the ability to invent accessories rather than be burdened with a narrow choice of fixed tools.
Clothes/skin in such a situation would most likely have been adopted initially for cold or armour, but it appears were maintained consistently for a long enough period for the body to discard fur, indicating that clothes were accepted as the way forward.
Clothes also would have served as security and prevention of harassment of females indicating a trend to avoid unnecessary conflict between males and social disorder which comes from lacking sexual control and dispersing seed randomly.
Just wanted to explain it the best way i think you'd understand it.

[anatolian]

I prefer that Islam will spread to France by peacefull ways, not because of some conquest army.

Just my opinion.

It is not to force people to Islam, it is to bring the justice of Islam onto people where there is an oppression, especially on Muslims...

[Serinity]

It is not to force people to Islam, it is to bring the justice of Islam onto people where there is an oppression, especially on Muslims...

What about a march? IDk.´:/

[MuhammadIbrahim]

Dear Pygoscelis,
Would you mind answering a simple question?
Would you like it if someone, a male, glances at your wife, daughter, sister, aunt, mother, or even your girlfriend while they are naked?
Suppose you are at a nudity Beach, Do you not mind a male glancing at your spouse?
If you ask me, I will reply: I do mind because I consider those female relatives a private property.

[anatolian]

What about a march? IDk.´:/

A modernized version of the attack march...just turn up the volume...:D

[Serinity]

A modernized version of the attack march...just turn up the volume...:D

A non violent or violent one? I guess a non violent one.OH.. What about marching to their headquarters, and demanding our rights?

[Pygoscelis]

Would you like it if someone, a male, glances at your wife, daughter, sister, aunt, mother, or even your girlfriend while they are naked?

I have been in that situation, and no I did not mind. If he was leering at her and making her uncomfortable, then I would mind, just as I would if she was wearing clothes and he was leering at her and making her uncomfortable.

Also, I get the sense that you may be shocked just how non-sexual nudity on nude beaches and nudist resorts can be. Once you adapt to it, you tend to forget you are naked and it isn't a big deal. Nudity is only hyper-sexualized in "normal" society because we build such a big taboo around it.

I do mind because I consider those female relatives a private property.

You think you own your wife as private property? You think that you own another human being? Perhaps you didn't mean to phrase it that way, but I find that very disturbing.

[MuhammadIbrahim]

I thank Allah (God) for the gift of Islam.
Muslims are very jealous people.

[Serinity]

I have been in that situation, and no I did not mind. If he was leering at her and making her uncomfortable, then I would mind, just as I would if she was wearing clothes and he was leering at her and making her uncomfortable.

Also, I get the sense that you may be shocked just how non-sexual nudity on nude beaches and nudist resorts can be. Once you adapt to it, you tend to forget you are naked and it isn't a big deal. Nudity is only hyper-sexualized in "normal" society because we build such a big taboo around it.



You think you own your wife as private property? You think that you own another human being? Perhaps you didn't mean to phrase it that way, but I find that very disturbing.

we don't own our women per say. Allah owns them, and Allah put us in charge, as such, it is a trust from Allah. We just have some rights over her, and she has some rights over us, etc.

[noraina]

As a Muslim woman, the requirement to remain veiled at all times outside the home is testimony to the respect and honour Islam gives to us. No, we are not owned by our male relatives, but it is their duty to protect and care for their women and I wouldn't have it any other way. This goes back to the original message of this thread - others may think what they like about the veil, but ask the ones who observe it and we'll tell them that it is the most liberating feeling you can have in the world. I feel like a princess Alhamdulillah.

[anatolian]

A non violent or violent one? I guess a non violent one.OH.. What about marching to their headquarters, and demanding our rights?

Salam bro. I didnt understand you. But I think that is enough for this thread. We may create its own thread :)

[Bhabha]

I have been in that situation, and no I did not mind. If he was leering at her and making her uncomfortable, then I would mind, just as I would if she was wearing clothes and he was leering at her and making her uncomfortable.

Also, I get the sense that you may be shocked just how non-sexual nudity on nude beaches and nudist resorts can be. Once you adapt to it, you tend to forget you are naked and it isn't a big deal. Nudity is only hyper-sexualized in "normal" society because we build such a big taboo around it.



You think you own your wife as private property? You think that you own another human being? Perhaps you didn't mean to phrase it that way, but I find that very disturbing.

There is something called the male glance. It tends to be internalized, which means that it is unconsciously allowed. There have been studies that explore the effects of an internalized male glance. Also studies that explore the silencing of women by males and females with the unconscious male glance.

Since you like science (http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...e-male-glance/)

I'll come back with other cool studies about consequences of the male glance on women later today. The one above is an easy read. But there are more interesting studies that discuss experiments testing the movement of the eyes on both males and females to objectify women without there being a conscious realization [emoji39][emoji39][emoji39][emoji39][emoji39]

[AhmedGassama]

We know exaclty of politics of France since the beginning of the Crusades, it will never change lol

[Muezzin]

Aren't we going a little off topic?

[Bhabha]

Aren't we going a little off topic?

I don't think so >_>;

The french minister's problem with the Niqab is a value's problem, so we are discussing values :statisfie:statisfie:statisfie:statisfie

-----

ON that note,

There is an interesting book by Anne McClintock (Imperial Leather: Race, Gender, and Sexuality in the Colonial Contest ). It talks about the different attitudes colonizers took when they set out to 'colonize'. When they went to places where women were uncovered, such as in tribal areas and the such, their description of these women were that they were uncivilized because they did not cover themselves. When the same colonizers went to places where women were covered, their remarks were that these people were uncivilized because their women were covered and thus were oppressed.

Lesson: no matter what you do, you will always be wrong in human's eyes.

[Pygoscelis]

^ indeed. And calls for tolerance should run in both directions. If one you sit on one extreme and want to be tolerated, you should do the same for the other. Neither is evil or harmfull, and freedom should mean a person's (man or woman) right to choose for themselves.

[Bhabha]

^ indeed. And calls for tolerance should run in both directions. If one you sit on one extreme and want to be tolerated, you should do the same for the other. Neither is evil or harmfull, and freedom should mean a person's (man or woman) right to choose for themselves.

Mind you the tribal places where women are uncovered are not plagued with porn and sexual magazines though. Their nudism is different than the nudism of someone who has been socialized and cultured in a society that is known to sexualize and objectify women (magazines, shows, etc. It is defacto proven).

[emoji5][emoji5][emoji28]