Similarity between Christians in Indonesia and Muslims in the West

[ardianto]

Missionaries/da'i from both parties love to quote the other holy book. Christian missionaries in Indonesia love to quote Qur'an to convince Muslims to convert to Christianity. While Muslim da'i in the West love to quote Bible to convince Christians to convert to Islam.

It's not good way to preach a religion.

If they want to preach, they must talk only their own religion. Christians must talk only about Christianity to make other people understand what is Christianity. Muslims must talk only about Islam to make other people understand what is Islam.

They must avoid attacking other religions, and must avoid targeting specific religion. Attacking other religion and targeting specific religion is the common cause of interfaith conflict.

[Serinity]

:salam:

It can also cause confusion for some, and make people less interested, etc.

For us Muslims, we should do dawah, and spread our religion, and leave the rest to Allah. Allah guides whom He wills. So use the Quran, that is the only thing we need, and In shaa' Allah, by the book of Allah, people will get guided. :D

Remember, when giving dawah, you give dawah to make people know about Islam. not about the other religion.
Allahu alam.

[ardianto]

Targeting specific target in da'wah can make us 'attack' the target belief. So it's better if we are not targeting specific target, but do da'wah to anyone, regardless their belief, through telling the beauty of Islam.

:)

[Serinity]

Targeting specific target in da'wah can make us 'attack' the target belief. So it's better if we are not targeting specific target, but do da'wah to anyone, regardless their belief, through telling the beauty of Islam.

:)

Ps. It can cause real confusions..

Imagine me spreading Islam, and talking to people about how christianity is corrupt, etc. Or how much better Islam is than Christianity etc. There is no need for such. Allah guides whom He wills. So just do your dawah, and leave the rest to Allah.

We should just do our dawah, and let them think for themselves..

When I watched lectures on Islam etc. The speaker didn't say "look at how christianity is corrupt.. " Etc. no, rather he talked about Islam, etc. and it penetreted my heart, and made sense etc.

WE should do the dawah, and let the people do the thinking, and leave the rest to Allah, to guide!

I mean,

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[~Zaria~]

Assalamu-alaikum,


In 2012, a UK based group called Mercy Mission launched a project: "Save Maryam". It was apparently aimed at addressing the large number of muslims leaving Islam for Christianity in Indonesia.


The campaign was heavily criticized for the use of exaggerated statistics, amongst other irregularities.


It has since quietly disappeared from social media activity - its webpages either being removed or are inactive.


However, I still wonder about this campaign - does anyone have any idea on its activity in Indonesia at present?


What are the actual figures on muslim conversions out of the fold of Islam in Indonesia?

[anatolian]

Salam,

I dont think so. I think we can read from Bible to convince Christians and Jews. Many of Jews and Christians do not know what Bible says and they follow their religious teaching. If you show them how Bible is in accordance with Islam they will understand Islam better. But in order to do that you must be well aware of Quran and Hadith, more than Bible of course. Just my opinion.

[ardianto]

Assalamu-alaikum,


In 2012, a UK based group called Mercy Mission launched a project: "Save Maryam". It was apparently aimed at addressing the large number of muslims leaving Islam for Christianity in Indonesia.


The campaign was heavily criticized for the use of exaggerated statistics, amongst other irregularities.


It has since quietly disappeared from social media activity - its webpages either being removed or are inactive.


However, I still wonder about this campaign - does anyone have any idea on its activity in Indonesia at present?


What are the actual figures on muslim conversions out of the fold of Islam in Indonesia?

Wa'alaikumsalam.

"Save Maryam" campaign actually launched with goal to gain donation to build a TV station in Indonesia. They exaggerate statistic of apostasy that make Indonesia look like lost its Muslims in big numbers every year. They also tried to convince people that apostasy in Indonesia happen because Christian programs in television. This is what I and other Indonesian Muslims criticize.

Indonesian government allow every religion to have programs in television, which the most dominant is Islamic programs. And Christian programs in TV is not the cause that make Muslim leave Islam. Every year, indeed, there are Muslims who convert to Christianity. But the number is not as big as "Save Maryam" claimed. And also every year there are always Christians who convert to Islam.

What make Muslims in Indonesia leave Islam?. The main cause is combination of poverty and attitude of other Muslims who don't care to poor people. That's why ulama always remind Muslims to always care to poor people. Another cause in very smaller number is marriage. Someone fall in love to Christian, and decide to convert to Christianity to marry his/her lover.

[ardianto]

Many of Jews and Christians do not know what Bible says and they follow their religious teaching.

Wa'alaikumsalam.

And those Christian missionaries say that many Muslims do not understand Quran and just blindly follow what ulama say.

Using other people religious scripture with purpose to convert them is not ethical way in preaching religion. We must avoid this.

I can understand what Christian feel when Muslim da'i quote Bible with purpose to convert them, because I feel the same thing too when Christian missionaries quote Qur'an with purpose to convert Muslims. That's why beside criticize Christian missionaries I criticize Muslim da'i too.

[~Zaria~]

Wa'alaikumsalam.

"Save Maryam" campaign actually launched with goal to gain donation to build a TV station in Indonesia. They exaggerate statistic of apostasy that make Indonesia look like lost its Muslims in big numbers every year. They also tried to convince people that apostasy in Indonesia happen because Christian programs in television. This is what I and other Indonesian Muslims criticize.

Indonesian government allow every religion to have programs in television, which the most dominant is Islamic programs. And Christian programs in TV is not the cause that make Muslim leave Islam. Every year, indeed, there are Muslims who convert to Christianity. But the number is not as big as "Save Maryam" claimed. And also every year there are always Christians who convert to Islam.

What make Muslims in Indonesia leave Islam?. The main cause is combination of poverty and attitude of other Muslims who don't care to poor people. That's why ulama always remind Muslims to always care to poor people. Another cause in very smaller number is marriage. Someone fall in love to Christian, and decide to convert to Christianity to marry his/her lover.

JazakAllahu khair for the response brother.

[anatolian]

Wa'alaikumsalam.

And those Christian missionaries say that many Muslims do not understand Quran and just blindly follow what ulama say.

Using other people religious scripture with purpose to convert them is not ethical way in preaching religion. We must avoid this.

I can understand what Christian feel when Muslim da'i quote Bible with purpose to convert them, because I feel the same thing too when Christian missionaries quote Qur'an with purpose to convert Muslims. That's why beside criticize Christian missionaries I criticize Muslim da'i too.

Well my freind what Christian missionaries say is truth. Most Muslims do not understand Quran and just blindly follow what ulama say really. But the difference is when Muslims read Quran and Sahih Sunnah more, they stick to Islam and answer the missionaries better. But when we let Christians read Bible and tell them what Quran says they tend to believe Islam. This is just my observation.

You find that unethical is a problem of ethics. I respect that but what I say is true and serves a good result from an Islamic point of view. Of course while doing this, we must be respectful to people.

[Pygoscelis]

Isn't merely saying "there is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is his prophet" an attack on all other religious beliefs? And isn't "the only way to God is through Jesus Christ" also an attack on all other religious beliefs, including Islam?

Near as I can tell the Abrahamic religions are inherently in conflict with other religious views, unlike some forms of polytheism for example.

[ardianto]

Greeting Pygoscelis.

Isn't merely saying "there is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is his prophet" an attack on all other religious beliefs? And isn't "the only way to God is through Jesus Christ" also an attack on all other religious beliefs, including Islam?

These statements are not considered as attack on other religions. Different than negative statement about other religions.

I give you analogy. Maybe you have ever found a company promote its product as "The only right choice". Do you see it as attack on other companies products?. I guess you will say no. Different than if this company make negative statement about other companies products like "The flaw of .... (product name)" or "Why you should not buy .... ".

Near as I can tell the Abrahamic religions are inherently in conflict with other religious views, unlike some forms of polytheism for example.

Basically every religion, Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic inherently in conflict of view with other religions. But if this conflict turn into physical conflict, actually it's because attitude of the believers which they attack other religion's view.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

Isn't merely saying "there is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is his prophet" an attack on all other religious beliefs? And isn't "the only way to God is through Jesus Christ" also an attack on all other religious beliefs, including Islam?

Near as I can tell the Abrahamic religions are inherently in conflict with other religious views, unlike some forms of polytheism for example.

I guess the biggest problem that God has with humanity, is that we don’t obey his commands. If we did, we would be able to live in peace with each other, but mankind wants to do things our way.

If we have one Jesus Christ who died for our sins, we split our beliefs into thousands of denominations, the conflict is within us. If there were no religions, I believe there would still be wars and conflicts.

The teachings of Jesus are about kindness, forgiving, helping the poor, instead of doing these things ourselves, we like to tell others they are wrong. The same with other religions too, I firmly believe God wants us to live in peace with each other despite our differences, we have to look for the good in everyone.

Blessings

Eric

[Serinity]

Humans want peace, yet crave for conflict and war, while shedding blood too. :)
So even if we seek peace, there will always be conflict, for as long mankind craves it. I think.. Allahu alam.

Though seeking conflict, when there is no need to, is wrong. I guess.. May Allah forgive me if I said anything wrong. Ameen.

True peace is only in Jannah. :) This life ain't Jannah nor is it Jahannam, it is the testing grounds. There will always be people who will oppose etc.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you ardianto;


I have often thought you would be a wonderful Christian, but and it is a big but, it is Islam that has made you the wonderful person you are. As you say Allah chooses whom he wills, and who am I to say that Allah made a mistake when he made you a Muslim.

My thoughts have always been that we should strive to change ourselves, and not other people.

Blessings to you and your family

Eric

[Pygoscelis]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;


I guess the biggest problem that God has with humanity, is that we don’t obey his commands. If we did, we would be able to live in peace with each other, but mankind wants to do things our way.

If we have one Jesus Christ who died for our sins, we split our beliefs into thousands of denominations, the conflict is within us. If there were no religions, I believe there would still be wars and conflicts.

The teachings of Jesus are about kindness, forgiving, helping the poor, instead of doing these things ourselves, we like to tell others they are wrong. The same with other religions too, I firmly believe God wants us to live in peace with each other despite our differences, we have to look for the good in everyone.

Blessings

Eric

The sermon on the mount was beautiful. Vicarious redemption and "none but through me", not so much.

[anatolian]

What else..Just make dawah, no matter how you do it..

I make dawah to increas my own iman..sometimes they agree me some times they laugh me some times they anger me but each time my own faith increases...

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

The sermon on the mount was beautiful.

We have to change ourselves if we are to follow God, this is often about trying to overcome and control human desires. I will just mention one line from the Sermon on the Mount, ‘Blessed are the pure in heart,’

As we are on an Islamic forum, this is very much the same message posted recently here by farhan.

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ner-outer.html

Vicarious redemption

I have read Christopher Hitchens explanation, but I think he missed the point, it’s not a get out of jail free card. Whatever we think Jesus has done for us, we are commanded to do likewise, our lives are to be sacrificial too in the search for justice, peace and mercy.

Jesus said, I give you a new commandment: love one another.
As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
This is how all will know that you are my disciples,
if you have love for one another.”

The message of Islam is also about submission to Allah and striving to change ourselves.

and "none but through me", not so much.

This is an Islamic forum, and I still believe that God's love, mercy and forgiveness is offered to all people.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[ardianto]

Greetings and peace be with you ardianto;


I have often thought you would be a wonderful Christian, but and it is a big but, it is Islam that has made you the wonderful person you are. As you say Allah chooses whom he wills, and who am I to say that Allah made a mistake when he made you a Muslim.

My thoughts have always been that we should strive to change ourselves, and not other people.

Blessings to you and your family

Eric

Greeting and peace be with you, Eric H.

A Christian priest wrote in his article "Every religion teaches kindness to its follower. But unfortunately there are always religious people who leave this religious teaching".

I agree with him. Yes, if someone being kind or being cruel, actually it's not because what is his religion, but because how he follow his religion teaching. I have met kind-hearted Muslims, kind-hearted Christians, kind-hearted Buddhists, kind-hearted Hindus, kind-hearted Confucians. And I believe, there are many kind-hearted people from other faiths too.

:)

[Pygoscelis]

I have read Christopher Hitchens explanation, but I think he missed the point, it’s not a get out of jail free card. Whatever we think Jesus has done for us, we are commanded to do likewise, our lives are to be sacrificial too in the search for justice, peace and mercy.

This is an Islamic forum, and I still believe that God's love, mercy and forgiveness is offered to all people.

It is refreshing to find a Christian who places works above faith, as it should be. But you are still left with a God accepting (or demanding?) the suffering and death of one innocent person and that somehow vicariously excusing other people who did wrong. Are you not? What did Jesus' "died for our sins" sacrifice accomplish if not to somehow clean away our sins? If it was just a brave act of self destruction (though not really because he rose on the 3rd day), what was the point on this divine suicide?

In the spirit of searching for God

In the sentiment of loving and improving humanity.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

In the sentiment of loving and improving humanity.

Amen, justice and hope for all people, regardless of race, colour, or religion.

It is refreshing to find a Christian who places works above faith, as it should be.

Atheists constantly thank me for the voluntary work that I have been doing over the last eight years, but that work depends on faith in God, I just could not do it otherwise.

The role of Street Pastor is one of caring for people, we do not go out to preach, and I make it a point to only talk about God if the other person brings the question up first. We wonder round the streets until 3 – 4 am, coming into contact with drunks, drugs, depression, suicide anger and violence, but mostly lots of wonderful people.

The violence is often a challenge, on the one hand, there is all the health and safety policies and risk assessments, and we have radios with a direct line to the police. On the other hand, it is pray as we go, I don’t know how many fights we have walked in the middle of, mostly they end up with handshakes and hugs. We get the hugs because we have some amazing lady street pastors, they are in their sixties and seventies, our oldest lady will be eighty this year.

We have no body armour or pepper sprays, we don't do self defence or running, we are truthfully just left with faith in God.

But you are still left with a God accepting (or demanding?) the suffering and death of one innocent person and that somehow vicariously excusing other people who did wrong. Are you not? What did Jesus' "died for our sins" sacrifice accomplish if not to somehow clean away our sins? If it was just a brave act of self destruction (though not really because he rose on the 3rd day), what was the point on this divine suicide?

I think you should pose this question on a Christian forum.

In the spirit of searching for God, and in the sentiment of loving and improving humanity.

Eric

[SHO]

Salam,

I dont think so. I think we can read from Bible to convince Christians and Jews. Many of Jews and Christians do not know what Bible says and they follow their religious teaching. If you show them how Bible is in accordance with Islam they will understand Islam better. But in order to do that you must be well aware of Quran and Hadith, more than Bible of course. Just my opinion.

Assalamu Alaikum,
I agree with this opinion.
Suppose,we say things like:
:The previous scriptures have been corrupted,
:The Book Holy Qur'an is predicted in the previous scriptures,
:Prophet Muhammad (S) is a Prophet predicted in the previous scriptures,
:He (S) was predicted by Isa (A),
:etc,

Some times even The Holy Qur'an says some things and say that it is there in Injeel, or,that is how it is mentioned in Thaurat,etc
Few examples are that Qur'an says that in Injeel,the believers are compared to a seed(or plant?),and in the Thaurath,they are described as having their faces shining (or something similar,I don't remember the exact verse),Prophet Muhammad (S) is predicted in 'what is in front of them' ,etc.

The Christians or Jews may not agree.At that time,we will need to show them that what we say is correct.For this purpose,we may sometimes need to use some Bible verses to show them that what The Holy Qur'an says about previous scriptures is correct.
This is why I advocate the quoting of Bible and other scriptures.
But,completely depending on them is not good.As many brothers and sisters said here,we should teach others about our religion,Islam.So,we need to use Qur'an more.
I,in my experience,got many of my questions and doubts answered by just reading some Aayahs in the Holy Qur'an,and I was stunned because they were much better and stronger than any other answers,and It helped me a lot.

So my conclusion is:
We can use quotes from other scriptures,but We need to use Qur'an more for Da'wah.

I think I made my point clear.
Assalamu Alaikum.

[anatolian]

So my conclusion is:
We can use quotes from other scriptures,but We need to use Qur'an more for Da'wah.

I think I made my point clear.
Assalamu Alaikum.

Agreed.