Did Jesus Predict Muhammad?

[Khalid Saifullah]

A Biblical Portal Between Christianity and Islam

There is no better candidate than Muhammad, no one in fact that comes even close, in terms of fulfilling Jesus’s promise of the Spirit of Truth who would bring forth a new revelation from God. I do not have space in this article to explore the many Qur’anic verses directly addressed to Christians, but if we were to receive them our religion would be transformed for the better and would come into balance with Judaism and Islam.
- Shabnam Mayet

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ian-me...b_9762934.html

[goodwill]

The promise of the Spirit is actually found first in the Old Testament or the Hebrew Scriptures:
“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit (Joel 2:28,29).


The Lord’s promise to His first disciples to send the Spirit of Truth, also referred to as the Comforter or Paraclete, is found primarily in the Gospel according to John. These are relevant verses from chapters 7, 14, and 16:
“In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”
“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
“But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.”
“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”


The Fulfillment of the promise to send the Spirit is found in the Acts of the Apostles, which records events shortly after Jesus the Christ's Ascension:
“And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.”

[talibilm]

The promise of the Spirit is actually found first in the Old Testament or the Hebrew Scriptures:
“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit (Joel 2:28,29).


The Lord’s promise to His first disciples to send the Spirit of Truth, also referred to as the Comforter or Paraclete, is found primarily in the Gospel according to John. These are relevant verses from chapters 7, 14, and 16:
“In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”
“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
“But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.”
“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”


The Fulfillment of the promise to send the Spirit is found in the Acts of the Apostles, which records events shortly after Jesus the Christ's Ascension:
“And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.”

Here's a Post (copy & paste ) from the Thread, A DEBATE who was the Comforter that Jesus predicted but still remains still unfulfilled untill after 2016 years ???

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...Mohammed/page2

Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed ??



''.....................Sister Arbed, you have been ALWAYS ELUDING MY QUESTION to you, after how many days after Jesus's vanishing did the spirit of Pentacost descended on disciples after how many days ? and also how may disciiples were there ? any Narration direct or verses from your book describing what did the Holy Spirit say ? ( Like hadith, quote a narration with chain of transmitters ) Or I will declare that ITS JUST A FAKE INCIDENT a Fairy tale and there is nothing a holy spirit except the Angel Gabriel who is called the PURE SPIRIT in the Noble Quran


So hope you grasp why the comforter is ONLY Muhammad (pbuh) See 6 PROOFS from JUST ONE VERSE from your NT


''John 16:13-15 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

13 However, when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative but will say only what he hears. He will also announce to you the events of the future. 14 He will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and announce it to you.''


Points to note ( explaining the above verse of John )


1)' Spirit of truth' means in a figurative speech for THE truth speaking person since the bible have such figurative speeches in tons like Father (God) Son of God ( the Pious person ) and also see different spirits ( From Bible ) 1) spirit of wisdom 2) spirit of jealousy 3) Spirit of slavery 4) Spirit of Evil etc all from your books

But Prophet Muhammad was the Spirit of truth , Never lied in his life and and even disclosed to the public those noble Quran verses which exposed his errors as a Human

'' the spirit of truth ''



2) he will guide you into all the truth; , what did the holy spirit '' GUIDE " ? unto what truth ? Guide means to guide someone when they are Mislead So the verse prophesizes , you Arbed, aj4u and all Chrisitians will be MISLEAD so then you will require a GUIDE to guide you to THE TRUTH , whereas the Spirit of Pentacoste descended with in 15 days ( or 150 days , Right ? as per earlier your post ? ) Do you think your 12 disciples and their followers were misguided with 150 days of Jesus vanishing ?

if so what did holy spirit say ? to which truth ? give narrations like hadith with chain of narrators but its ONLY Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who guided you to all the truth that Mary was chaste ,Jesus was the messiah, a prophet and a servant of Allah not begotten , not killed like a criminal and the books have been distorted, All prophets like Lot(pbuh) were not criminals etc etc etc



3) for he will not speak on his own initiative but will say only what he hears , but the holy spirit ghost spoke of its own in different languages but its only Muhammd who fullfilled this as in the Noble Quran 53: 3- 4

''Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed,''



4) He will also announce to you the events of the future which is IRREFUTABLE with Prophet Muhammds more than 240 prophecies with over 80 % fullfilled the remaining awaited to be full filled but poor Holy GHOST did not prophesize even just ONE Prophesy . ONLY THIS PROOF IS ENOUGH TO PROVE COMFORTER WAS NEVER AND NOT THE HOLY GHOST WHICH NEVER MADE NOT EVEN ONE PROPHESY

5) He will glorify me,, where and how did the holy Ghost Glorified Jesus when the world lead by the Jews were calling Jesus with 7 letter filthy word and was insulting his Mother Maryam , so what was the Holy Ghost doing for 600 years ?
watching HBC ? ( Hebrew brodcasting Channel ?

) BUT I will CHALLENGE YOU ITS ONLY PROPHET MUHAMMAD '' an OUTSIDER glorified dignified Jesus for 1st time after 600 years of blasphemy and indeed man is very ungrateful than dogs and Jesus says (something like that too ) calling them the people of ''inequity or lawlessness '' in Matthew 7:22-23 and those who claim Muhammad (pbuh) did not glorify Jesus will surely come under this



6) he will receive from what is mine and announce it to youAgain its only Muhammad the prophet who received or continued the POST of the Prophethood from after Jesus(pbuh) and announced to you all that he was the continual of Prophet Hood of Jesus and is proved so as no Prophet or a major religion came in between Jesus and Muhammad (pbuh) is another proof of it.



Conclusion Tal: 9

Arb : 1

: : ( only John 14:26, 'a contradiction' like many other contradictions in the NT that helps the Christians ) in favor of Muhammad (pbuh) is the another and Last comforter of the worldwho was also foretold in every major religion of the world.''

[Abz2000]

37On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

40On hearing his words, some of the people said, “Surely this man is the Prophet.”

41Others said, “He is the Messiah.”

Still others asked, “How can the Messiah come from Galilee? 42Does not Scripture say that the Messiah will come from David’s descendants and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?” 43Thus the people were divided because of Jesus. 44Some wanted to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him.

From john 7



Surah 108. Abundance, Plenty

1.*To thee have We granted the Fount (of Abundance).2.*Therefore to thy Lord turn in Prayer and Sacrifice.3.*For he who hateth thee, he will be cut off (from Future Hope).


Imam Ahmad recorded from Anas bin Malik that a man said, "O Messenger of Allah! What is Al-Kawthar He replied: (It is a river in Paradise which my Lord has given me. It is whiter than milk and sweeter than honey. There are birds in it whose necks are (long) like carrots.) `Umar said, "O Messenger of Allah! Verily, they (the birds) will be beautiful. The Prophet replied,(The one who eats them (i.e., the people of Paradise) will be more beautiful than them, O `Umar.)
Narrated Anas bin Malik : The Prophet said: "While I was walking in Paradise (on the night of Mi'raj), I saw a river, on the two banks of which there were tents made of hollow pearls. I asked, "What is this, O Gabriel?' He said, 'That is the Kauthar which Your Lord has given to you.' Behold! Its scent or its mud was sharp smelling musk!" (The sub-narrator, Hudba is in doubt as to the correct expression.)[8][9]
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas : The word 'Al-Kauthar' means the abundant good which Allah gave to him (the Prophet Muhammad). Abu Bishr said: I said to Sa'id ibn Jubayr, "Some people claim that it (Al-Kauthar) is a river in Paradise." Said replied, "The river that is in Paradise is one item of that good which Allah has bestowed upon him (Muhammad)." [10][11]
Narrated Abu ʿUbaidah : I asked 'Aisha 'regarding the verse:--'Verily we have granted you the Kauthar.' She replied, "The Kauthar is a river which has been given to your Prophet on the banks of which there are (tents of) hollow pearls and its utensils are as numberless as the stars."[12]

Narrated Haritha bin Wahb : I heard the Prophet mentioning the Lake-Fount (Al-Kauthar), saying, "(The width of the Lake-Fount) is equal to the distance between Medina and Sana' (capital of Yemen)." Haritha said that he heard the Prophet saying that his Lake-Fount would be as large as the distance between Sana' and Medina. Al-Mustaurid said to Haritha, "Didn't you hear him talking about the vessels?" He said, "No." Al-Mustaurid said, "The vessels are seen in it as (numberless as) the stars."[13]

Narrated Anas bin Malik : One day the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was sitting amongst us that he dozed off. He then raised his head smilingly. We said: What makes you smile. Messenger of Allah? He said: A Sura has just been revealed to me, and then recited: In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful. Verily We have given thee Kauthar (fount of abundance). Therefore, turn to thy Lord for prayer and offer sacrifice, and surely thy enemy is cut off (from the good). Then he (the Holy Prophet) said: Do you know what Kauthar is? We said: Allah and His Messenger know best. The Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: It (Kauthar) is a canal which my Lord, the Exalted and Glorious has promised me, and there is an abundance of good in it. It is a cistern and my people would come to it on the Day of Resurrection, and tumblers there would be equal to the number of stars. A servant would be turned away from (among the people gathered there). Upon this I would say: My Lord, he is one of my people, and He (the Lord) would say: You do not know that he innovated new things (in Islam) after you. Ibn Hujr made this addition in the hadith:" He (the Holy Prophet) was sitting amongst us in the mosque, and He (Allah) said: (You don't know) what he innovated after you"[14]

Narrated Sahl ibn Sa'd : I heard the Prophet saying, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar), and whoever will come to it, will drink from it, and whoever will drink from it, will never become thirsty after that. There will come to me some people whom I know and they know me, and then a barrier will be set up between me and them." Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri added that the Prophet further said: "I will say those people are from me. It will be said, 'You do not know what changes and new things they did after you.' Then I will say, 'Far removed (from mercy), far removed (from mercy), those who changed (the religion) after me! "[15]
Narrated Asma' : The Prophet said, "

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[goodwill]

Here's a Post (copy & paste ) from the Thread, A DEBATE who was the Comforter that Jesus predicted but still remains still unfulfilled untill after 2016 years ???

To present a serious Biblical argument, one must consider the whole Biblical context and avoid making arbitrary assertions based on one's own preferences. Otherwise, there is eisegesis instead of exegesis. Here is an example of exegesis regarding the passage in question:

John 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; 16:7


The other principal passage that Muslims appeal to is from the Gospel of John. What is ironic is that the Gospel of John which so forcefully advocates the Deity of Christ and amplifies the identity of Jesus as Son of God is also one of the main texts that receive the most scathing attack from Muslims. Here again the inconsistent methodology used by Muslims becomes apparent. Where they feel the gospel of John can be used to support the Qur’an, it is right, where it does not, it is wrong. In short, the reader will note that there is no concern for the biblical texts themselves or whether they can stand on their own merit. They are arbitrarily and selectively used by Muslims to suit the Qur’an. This would be the same as Christians using the Qur’an to prove the Bible whenever it agrees with it and rejecting when it does not. Our Muslim friends would be quick to charge us with inconsistency here and yet this futile exercise is always practiced in Islamic dialogues with Christians. It should always be remembered that an inconsistent methodology and argument, are always signs of a failed argument because in the end they are contrived.


Turning to the gospel of John let us examine a few passages:


“And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)


"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” (John 14:26)

"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me." (John 15:26)

“But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.” (John 16:7)


The word “Counselor” in these passages comes from the Greek word“parakletos”and literally means “called to one’s side”. Thus one who is called to one’s side provides counsel, comfort, aid, help, etc and thus this word has also been translated as “Comforter”, “Helper”, “Intercessor”, and “Advocate” in other Bible translations, but they all convey the same idea. What is interesting is the Muslim claim that the “Counselor” or “Comforter” in these passages in John’s gospel is really in fact Muhammad. Moreover, they make the claim that the original Greek word here is not “parakletos” but “periklutos” which means the “praised one”, and is the equivalent of the Arabic name Ahmad, which Muslims claim is the short form of the name Muhammad. In the Qur’an it is stated that Jesus predicted the coming of “Ahmad” (Qur’an 61:6) whom Muslims say is Muhammad. Since Jesus predicted Muhammad’s coming, Muslims allege that the record of that prediction is found in John 14-16.


Again this is the selective methodology that we see in Muslim apologetics. The Bible is corrupted, except when they can use it to buttress Islam. The major problem with this approach is that all of the Greek manuscripts we have of John’s gospel ALL contain the word“parakletos”, which as we saw means “Counselor” or “Comforter” and never “periklutos”. We have over 5700 Greek manuscripts. Of the many that we possess, not one of them differs on this reading in John 14-16. Scores of these ancient manuscripts predate Islam. It should also be remembered that “parakletos” is a noun whereas “periklutos” is an adjective, thus grammatically they are different words altogether. The Comforter Jesus spoke of is not a human being, but as the text identifies is rather the Holy Spirit. “Counselor”, “Holy Spirit” and “Spirit of truth” are interchangeable terms speaking of the same Person.


The fact that Jesus uses the masculine gender “he” and “his” doesn’t infer He is speaking of a human being. God is also spoken of in the Bible and Qur’an in the masculine gender, and yet God is Spirit (John 4:24). Similarly Jesus speaks of the Counselor as a Spirit, not as a man. The text logically bears this out. The irony in the Muslim use of John 14-16 is that these chapters are heavily Trinitarian in nature. They speak of the economical Trinity and how the Persons of the Godhead function. For instance, the Father sends the Holy Spirit in the name of the Son (John 14:26). The Son also sends the Holy Spirit from the Father (John 15:26). Let us examine what Jesus said about the Counselor/Comforter and see if it fits the description of Muhammad:


1)“He [the Father] will give you another Comforter”. Jesus promised the disciples that the Father would give them another Comforter. During His earthly life, Jesus had been their Comforter. Now that He was going to leave them, He promised them another Comforter in His absence, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is “another Comforter” which implies more than one. In another New Testament passage Jesus is also called the “parakletos” (same word used of the Holy Spirit in John 14-16), our Advocate with God (1 John 2:1). The other “Comforter” was as He said, “the Spirit of truth”. If Jesus meant Muhammad by the word “Comforter”, would it not be absurd for Jesus to have said “He will give you another Muhammad”? The disciples did not have to wait 600 years for the Comforter to come, He came over a month after the death and resurrection of Jesus on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4).


2) “To be with you forever”. Jesus promised the Comforter would be with His disciples forever. Muhammad did not stay with his people forever but died in A.D. 632. The Comforter, the Holy Spirit has been with the Church for 2000 years.


3) “You know him” The disciples of Jesus knew the Comforter. Muhammad was not born until more than 500 years later and therefore was obviously not known by the disciples of Jesus.


4) “He dwells with you”. The Comforter, the Holy Spirit dwelled with the disciples of Jesus and thus this was something the disciples experienced in their lifetime. Muhammad was not even born yet.


5) “He will be in you”.The Comforter, the Holy Spirit would be in the disciples and by extension all believers in Jesus. This shows that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a spiritual reality, not a physical one. This can never be said of Muhammad.


It is clear from a consistent and honest reading of all the texts mentioned above that the Muslim claim that Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible is absolutely baseless. One can make the Bible or any book saying anything one wishes if context is ignored. The same is true of the Qur’an. If we are going to appreciate proper exegesis (“reading out”) of the Bible we have to be consistent with its context, its grammar, and its historical setting. When the Bible is read this way it will become quickly evident that the Bible does not predict the coming of Muhammad at all. It rather points to Him who is the theme and subject of its focus, the One of whom the disciples testified, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth” (John 1:45).

[M.I.A.]

2) “To be with you forever”. Jesus promised the Comforter would be with His disciples forever. Muhammad did not stay with his people forever but died in A.D. 632. The Comforter, the Holy Spirit has been with the Church for 2000 years.

...I see,

the church monoplalised the spirit?

..Imo corruption is more than a literal change of word..

it is in practice and with those that preach.

they bear the responsibility.

most things are simply just misdirection.

[greenhill]

Corruption of the Bible is not absolute. If it was, there would be no similarities. There are many things that would flow in the messages throughout time. From Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (pbuta).

The difference is in the description of Jesus and Mary, in the main. Maybe some other minor stuff.

Hope you understand. Why rely on a book that is a translation of a translation that has been revised countless times when we have original Words in the Quran telling His.

It is not being arrogant. But it is clear. The Quran is the Truth. Deny it all you like, it changes nothing. It still remains the truth.

For their time, they had their prophets, for our times we have our prophet. Our times are to follow the final messenger. And the preservation of the Quran is a clear 'Sign'.



:peace:

[goodwill]

2) “To be with you forever”. Jesus promised the Comforter would be with His disciples forever. Muhammad did not stay with his people forever but died in A.D. 632. The Comforter, the Holy Spirit has been with the Church for 2000 years.

...I see,

the church monoplalised the spirit?

..Imo corruption is more than a literal change of word..

it is in practice and with those that preach.

they bear the responsibility.

most things are simply just misdirection.

Our heavenly Father is quite liberal with bestowing the Holy Spirit. The Lord Jesus taught, “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” (Luke 11:13).

[goodwill]

Corruption of the Bible is not absolute. If it was, there would be no similarities. There are many things that would flow in the messages throughout time. From Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (pbuta).

The difference is in the description of Jesus and Mary, in the main. Maybe some other minor stuff.

Hope you understand. Why rely on a book that is a translation of a translation that has been revised countless times when we have original Words in the Quran telling His.

It is not being arrogant. But it is clear. The Quran is the Truth. Deny it all you like, it changes nothing. It still remains the truth.

For their time, they had their prophets, for our times we have our prophet. Our times are to follow the final messenger. And the preservation of the Quran is a clear 'Sign'.



:peace:

If the Bible has been corrupted, then that is a problem not only for me, but for you too, because the Quran itself repeatedly confirms the inspiration, authority, and preservation of the Bible. Suras 2, 3, 5, and 7 for starters.


You don’t seem to know how translations of the Bible are done. Modern translations are not translations of a translation. The New Testament is translated from Greek manuscripts (Greek being the original language of the New Testament), some or many of which manuscripts predate Muhammad’s time.


The Quran itself has not been preserved perfectly. The Caliph Uthman would not have burned the variant copies of the Quran that existed in his day, if there had been no disagreements among the copies. The hadiths even say a goat or sheep ate part of the original Quran and so that page was lost. Even today the official 1924 text of the Quran differs both from other modern versions of the Quran and from the six earliest existing Quranic manuscripts. You are welcome to ask me for the sources to back up these claims.

[greenhill]

Please..

Every year live recitations of the Quran from Mecca is aired on national tv. Variations would be noticed. Islam has been around over a thousand years where I'm from. I don't think my quran would be different except in the way it is written anywhere in the world. Recited, with exception of accent, similar throughout the world.

Yes, there are Shia and others. I don't know if they are even muslims. But that is Allah's domain.

On the destroying of manuscripts. Yes, agreed that it is sure that not all were. But they were all scrips and scraps. Once all the verses compiled into a complete Book, there was no need for the original scraps. The compiled Book then became the standard and the alphabets became more embellished to indicate the vowel such as aa ee oo.

So those scrap did not in anyway, even if survived the ages, make anywhere near the full Quran.


:peace:

[M.I.A.]

Our heavenly Father is quite liberal with bestowing the Holy Spirit. The Lord Jesus taught, “If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?” (Luke 11:13).

.....ask who?

ok maybe I am assuming people may also ask outside of the church..

although the priests probably like some down time..

if there is such a thing.

although maybe people just have to ask Allah swt.. which is a whole other ballgame.

either way, I have no idea how to give good gifts...

Allah swt is the sustainer, he makes of our actions what he wills.

Sometimes it feels like turning up is enough.

(iv only seen people ask of each other)

[goodwill]

Please..

Every year live recitations of the Quran from Mecca is aired on national tv. Variations would be noticed. Islam has been around over a thousand years where I'm from. I don't think my quran would be different except in the way it is written anywhere in the world. Recited, with exception of accent, similar throughout the world.

Yes, there are Shia and others. I don't know if they are even muslims. But that is Allah's domain.

On the destroying of manuscripts. Yes, agreed that it is sure that not all were. But they were all scrips and scraps. Once all the verses compiled into a complete Book, there was no need for the original scraps. The compiled Book then became the standard and the alphabets became more embellished to indicate the vowel such as aa ee oo.

So those scrap did not in anyway, even if survived the ages, make anywhere near the full Quran.


:peace:

Variations have been noticed. The differences between the Arabic Hafs and Warsh versions are probably the best known. Twenty-six different Arabic Qurans recently displayed in London elicited a boisterous reaction: //www. youtube.com/watch?v=DnorKE_tWHA

[talibilm]

To present a serious Biblical argument, one must consider the whole Biblical context and avoid making arbitrary assertions based on one's own preferences. Otherwise, there is eisegesis instead of exegesis.

Hi Goodwill,
I agree with your your assertion above '' one must consider the whole Biblical context and avoid making arbitrary assertions based on one's own preferences '' and this what the Trinitarians have been doing untill 2016 '' making arbitrary assertions based of their 's own preferences ''(like you said above )throwing Away what BOTH The Bible & Jesus said in a desperation of deifying Jesus with a very few verses like '' I and My Father are one '' , which can mean anything like ONE in purpose, righteousness etc and NOT ONE in Person as Mr Deedat proves here in an great audience of Priests & Pastors here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTT5BiS9kxk

They throw out Jesus's own words verses like John 10:29 ''My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, ''

Matthew 5:9 ''How blessed are those who make peace!
for they will be called sons of God.''


''All who are led by God’s Spirit are God’s sons.''

Mark 10:18 '' Yeshua said to him, “Why are you calling me good? No one is good except God!''


John 20:17 ''.......... ‘I’m going up to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

John 4:44 '' Now Yeshua himself said, “A Prophet is not respected in his own country.”





And Also throw away Bible's verses like

Leviticus 26:1-8 '' Ye shall make you NO idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.

2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.''

And Many more and that's why even most of the Jews consider trinitarians as 'polytheists'

Here is an example of exegesis regarding the passage in question:

John 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; 16:7

The other principal passage that Muslims appeal to is from the Gospel of John. What is ironic is that the Gospel of John which so forcefully advocates the Deity of Christ and amplifies the identity of Jesus as Son of God is also one of the main texts that receive the most scathing attack from Muslims.

This in not true as in Gospel of John Jesus said all these in it

John 1:18 "no man hath seen God at any time"

John 20:17 ''.......... ‘I’m going up to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

John 4:44 '' Now Yeshua himself said, “A Prophet is not respected in his own country.” & John 4:24 too

All those words of ''Father" in John or elsewhere by Jesus referred to ''God'' in a figurative way like using the term '' Son '' Israel is the son of god . David is the son of God etc So that will Make Jesus the 3rd son of God if used literally.


Since Jesus was a Jew so he called God as the father proof is here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_Father

Here again the inconsistent methodology used by Muslims becomes apparent. Where they feel the gospel of John can be used to support the Qur’an, it is right, where it does not, it is wrong. In short, the reader will note that there is no concern for the biblical texts themselves or whether they can stand on their own merit. They are arbitrarily and selectively used by Muslims to suit the Qur’an. This would be the same as Christians using the Qur’an to prove the Bible whenever it agrees with it and rejecting when it does not. Our Muslim friends would be quick to charge us with inconsistency here and yet this futile exercise is always practiced in Islamic dialogues with Christians. It should always be remembered that an inconsistent methodology and argument, are always signs of a failed argument because in the end they are contrived.

Yes When the OT was Corrupted consequently Jesus appeared to show the truth and the Way of God to the Jews . Similarly The Last Prophet of God, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) appeared with the Noble Quran to be used as The Criterion untill the last days of this Earth and this is also proved when we see no other Major Religion or Scripture after Islam. So its Logic that Muslims deny certain verses and accept certain verses WHICH ARE STILL IN TACT such as the traits of Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) and other commandments Which The Last UPDATED TESTAMENT The Noble Quran approves of. Even Bart Erhman, the 30 year experienced Bible Scholar accepts that NT was a very poorly documented Scripture even in comparison to the Old Testament.

So Many verses of Gospel of John clearly proves who was that ' ANOTHER COMFORTER '' except the verse 14 :26 above supports such trinitarian view CONTRADICTING All Most all other verses about the Comforter, (proving it below with your own quotes Inshallah) and such CONTRADICTIONS are NOT NEW TO THE BIBLE

Turning to the gospel of John let us examine a few passages:


“And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)


"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” (John 14:26)

"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me." (John 15:26)

“But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.” (John 16:7)


The word “Counselor” in these passages comes from the Greek word“parakletos”and literally means “called to one’s side”. Thus one who is called to one’s side provides counsel, comfort, aid, help, etc and thus this word has also been translated as “Comforter”, “Helper”, “Intercessor”, and “Advocate” in other Bible translations, but they all convey the same idea. What is interesting is the Muslim claim that the “Counselor” or “Comforter” in these passages in John’s gospel is really in fact Muhammad. Moreover, they make the claim that the original Greek word here is not “parakletos” but “periklutos” which means the “praised one”, and is the equivalent of the Arabic name Ahmad, which Muslims claim is the short form of the name Muhammad. In the Qur’an it is stated that Jesus predicted the coming of “Ahmad” (Qur’an 61:6) whom Muslims say is Muhammad. Since Jesus predicted Muhammad’s coming, Muslims allege that the record of that prediction is found in John 14-16.

Muslims are not supposed to lie in their Religion so I would not Lie that I know Greek and all its meanings so i will not argue on this word '' “parakletos” but “periklutos” but most of the Muslim Scholars have told it meant ' the Praised one ', which is the translation of Ahmad when Names Should not be translated , Mr Black should be translated as Mr Black in any language not Mr Dum (in thai means Black) though he is white. Similarly Muhammad im in 5:16 in song of songs has been translated to '' Lovely '' which is another BLUNDER by the PEOPLE OF THE BOOK to hide the truth with a false lovers story (What does a lovers story have to do with the Torah ? ) made in the OT who also transfered this Chapter from the main Torah to the Ketuvim in the restructuring they did to their OT in the 8th century after the arrival of the noble Quran . :heated:

but still even your above words I quote
'' “parakletos”and literally means “called to one’s side”. Thus one who is called to one’s side provides counsel, comfort, aid, help, etc and thus this word has also been translated as “Comforter”, “Helper”, “Intercessor”

still applies to a Prophet of Religion who gave comfort , counsel, aid, help to their believers as Prophet Muhammad is. AND THE TRAITS ABOUT THE COMFORTER FROM JOHN 16 & MORE as in post # 3 WILL NEVER SUIT A SPIRIT , LITERALLY with tongues of fire as seen in the Pentecost Incident & the Holy Spirit did not call any one to its side which is meant by your explanation of Comforter” or “Counsellor” or "Advocate" ie ''one called to the side of another,'' But Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) EXACTLY did that''called the world to Worship the Creator than from worshipping the Created ''

Again this is the selective methodology that we see in Muslim apologetics. The Bible is corrupted, except when they can use it to buttress Islam.The major problem with this approach is that all of the Greek manuscripts we have of John’s gospel ALL contain the word“parakletos”, which as we saw means “Counselor” or “Comforter” and never “periklutos”. We have over 5700 Greek manuscripts. Of the many that we possess, not one of them differs on this reading in John 14-16. Scores of these ancient manuscripts predate Islam. It should also be remembered that “parakletos” is a noun whereas “periklutos” is an adjective, thus grammatically they are different words altogether. The Comforter Jesus spoke of is not a human being, but as the text identifies is rather the Holy Spirit. “Counselor”, “Holy Spirit” and “Spirit of truth” are interchangeable terms speaking of the same Person.

Its already replied that Prophets, Scriptures arrive when the Older Scripture gets CORRUPTED and its PROVED TOO NO MAJOR RELIGION OR PROPHET AFTER ISLAM

This is your clear assumption “Counselor”, “Holy Spirit” and “Spirit of truth” are ONE & THE SAME . is proved wrong here

John 14:16Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

16 and I will ask the Father, and he will give you ANOTHER comforting Counselor ''like me,'' the Spirit of Truth, to be with you forever.

Note : What does the word '' Another " Mean when the Holy spirit was always with Jesus ? and his disciples ? according to NT is the First proof & ''LIKE ME '' ie in Flesh LIKE ''Jesus '' and all know Jesus was still ALIVE (not in spirit form after crucifixion) when he spoke these words so It did not refer to any Spirit in the second proof.


John 16:7-8Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

7 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I don’t go away, the comforting Counselor will not come to you. However, if I do go, I will send him to you.''

Note : Here too is says Comforter, Counselor was NOT the same Holy Spirit which already dwelled with them but some one NEW to come later .


Spirit of Truth was used here in a figurative again as there many in the bible like Spirit of slavery, Spirit of Wisdom . Spirit of Jealousy, etc all from the Bible.

John 16:13-15 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

13 However, when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own initiative but will say only what he hears. He will also announce to you the events of the future. 14 He will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and announce it to you.''

Note : The Holy ghost did not guide the disciples to the truth or secret of pure birth of Jesus & his Chaste mother (while the world & even some christians doubted miraculous birth and Jews were the lead in blaspheming Jesus) and the Holy Spirit spoke of its own and did not wait to hear from any source like revelations Nor it Prophesied anything about the future ( Prophet Muhammad about 240 prophesies) Nor It Glorified Jesus (called him pure) so this would be done by the SPIRIT OF TRUTH ie Al ameen , The Prophet of Islam who received the Prophethood after Jesus and announced it to the world

John 14:16Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

16 and I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforting Counselorlike me, the Spirit of Truth, to be with you forever.

Note : Here Jesus Claims himself to be the 'SPIRIT OF TRUTH '' here as all Prophets are but such title was dedicated to Prophet :saws: even from his childhood or Youth as ''Al Ameen '' or ''As Sadique".

The fact that Jesus uses the masculine gender “he” and “his” doesn’t infer He is speaking of a human being. God is also spoken of in the Bible and Qur’an in the masculine gender, and yet God is Spirit (John 4:24). Similarly Jesus speaks of the Counselor as a Spirit, not as a man. The text logically bears this out. The irony in the Muslim use of John 14-16 is that these chapters are heavily Trinitarian in nature. They speak of the economical Trinity and how the Persons of the Godhead function. For instance, the Father sends the Holy Spirit in the name of the Son (John 14:26). The Son also sends the Holy Spirit from the Father (John 15:26). Let us examine what Jesus said about the Counselor/Comforter and see if it fits the description of Muhammad:


1)“He [the Father] will give you another Comforter”. Jesus promised the disciples that the Father would give them another Comforter. During His earthly life, Jesus had been their Comforter.

So You Contradicted yourselves in your below quote The “The Comforter ,Counselor”, “Holy Spirit” and “Spirit of truth” WERE THE SAME and claim here That Jesus was that Comforter who was still in FLESH AND NOT A HOLY SPIRIT in his earthly life which Muslims have been claiming see your quote here

The Comforter Jesus spoke of is not a human being, but as the text identifies is rather the Holy Spirit. “Counselor”, “Holy Spirit” and “Spirit of truth” are interchangeable terms speaking of the same Person.

Now that He was going to leave them, He promised them another Comforter in His absence, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is “another Comforter” which implies more than one. In another New Testament passage Jesus is also called the “parakletos” (same word used of the Holy Spirit in John 14-16), our Advocate with God (1 John 2:1). The other “Comforter” was as He said, “the Spirit of truth”. If Jesus meant Muhammad by the word “Comforter”, would it not be absurd for Jesus to have said “He will give you another Muhammad”? The disciples did not have to wait 600 years for the Comforter to come, He came over a month after the death and resurrection of Jesus on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4).

There were 11 or 12 disciples who even Fled away in fear to the farthest places ( Bart Erhman says those cities like to Italy) and do you mean they gathered immediately in about a Month at the Pentecost ??? People used to travel months even at 7th century. I think they were using mobile & internet then ? even under opposition of Jews & the Roman King ?? and there were 150 disciples is the claim from your books ?? Not 11 or 25 or 50 in a month or so. Let the reader decide. :scratch:

Jesus Said the COMFORTER will Guide them unto all Truth so do yo mean all were Misguided just in a month after meeting Jesus ??? :scratch:

2) “To be with you forever”. Jesus promised the Comforter would be with His disciples forever. Muhammad did not stay with his people forever but died in A.D. 632. The Comforter, the Holy Spirit has been with the Church for 2000 years.

Comforter Muhammad lives with us in actions (sunnah the Path) and with his Guarded Book the Noble Quran for ever (Untill the last days of this world) its spoken again figuratively like they say Elvis Lives ?? Its means his Fans so we the Fans of Prophet Muhammad :saws: . So the Holy Spirit, The Comforter, Counselor broke Christians into 41000 denominations in 2000 years ??

3) “You know him” The disciples of Jesus knew the Comforter. Muhammad was not born until more than 500 years later and therefore was obviously not known by the disciples of Jesus.

These Below Verses Refers ONLY to Jesus, The Comforter which you agreed above whom they know well.

4) “He dwells with you”. The Comforter, the Holy Spirit dwelled with the disciples of Jesus and thus this was something the disciples experienced in their lifetime. Muhammad was not even born yet.

Its again Jesus The Comforter whom you agreed a while ago he is the comforter and dwelled with the disciples . Dwells means eating & living together which the HOLY SPIRIT NEVER DID but Jesus Did.

5) “He will be in you”.The Comforter, the Holy Spirit would be in the disciples and by extension all believers in Jesus. This shows that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a spiritual reality, not a physical one. This can never be said of Muhammad.

It means the Love like someone lives in your heart and it describes here the comforter Jesus will live in Heart .

It is clear from a consistent and honest reading of all the texts mentioned above that the Muslim claim that Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible is absolutely baseless. One can make the Bible or any book saying anything one wishes if context is ignored. The same is true of the Qur’an. If we are going to appreciate proper exegesis (“reading out”) of the Bible we have to be consistent with its context, its grammar, and its historical setting. When the Bible is read this way it will become quickly evident that the Bible does not predict the coming of Muhammad at all. It rather points to Him who is the theme and subject of its focus, the One of whom the disciples testified, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth” (John 1:45).

Yes the CONTEXT is important so the context was clearly used here to Prove that the Comforter Jesus spoke about was someone like Jesus himself ( WHICH YOU ALREADY AGREED ) in FLESH & is THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH who will Guide the world unto the truth.


Note : May need edition addition later Inshallah.

[greenhill]

Variations have been noticed. The differences between the Arabic Hafs and Warsh versions are probably the best known. Twenty-six different Arabic Qurans recently displayed in London elicited a boisterous reaction: //www. youtube.com/watch?v=DnorKE_tWHA

Yes maybe so. I am told there is now there are Bible in Arabic. That could be a variation too!

Some with more 'surahs' etc. That is not Quran then.

But the major difference you are saying is a dilect. It does nothing to oppose any rule or teaching but merely of descriptive differences. No conflict.


:peace:

[talibilm]

If the Bible has been corrupted, then that is a problem not only for me, but for you too, because the Quran itself repeatedly confirms the inspiration, authority, and preservation of the Bible. Suras 2, 3, 5, and 7 for starters.

The Noble Quran says The Injeel was from Allah but it has been distorted




5:15-18 ''O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.''By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.''They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?"

You don’t seem to know how translations of the Bible are done. Modern translations are not translations of a translation. The New Testament is translated from Greek manuscripts (Greek being the original language of the New Testament), some or many of which manuscripts predate Muhammad’s time.

Aramaic was The Original language of Jesus & his Injeel but the first known NT after the Influence of Apostle Paul was in Greek and in my opinion The Aramaic speaking Jesus never told this '' I am the Alpha and the Omega,” since they are Greek Alphabets since Jesus never spoke Greek and an example how much the NT could have been distorted with the influence of Polytheists Greeks ?

The Quran itself has not been preserved perfectly. The Caliph Uthman would not have burned the variant copies of the Quran that existed in his day, if there had been no disagreements among the copies. The hadiths even say a goat or sheep ate part of the original Quran and so that page was lost. Even today the official 1924 text of the Quran differs both from other modern versions of the Quran and from the six earliest existing Quranic manuscripts. You are welcome to ask me for the sources to back up these claims.

Caliph Uthman only REAFFIRMED the Noble Quran in 653 AD ( not recompiled nor wrote the earlier Original Quran COMPILED into one book ,{SINCE the Quran was always there seen in Prophets Sermon** by Abubackr 1 year after Prophet's demise in 633 AD ) into a standard copy in one Quraishi Dialect (as it is read today) with the help of Huffaz or Memorizers of The Noble Quran who were still in 1000's (including kids, The Miracle) & Even the Team for this Purpose under Zaid Bin Thabbit who was also the head of compilation in 633 AD ie one year after Prophet's demise in 632 AD . Caliph Uthman did this to avoid difference in recitations as Islam spread far away from Arabia and that's why he burned those many many parchments in different dialects but the Abu Bakr's Original was returned to Hafsa , the wife of Prophet and was not burned proves the !st Original was no different to the reaffirmed Quran by Uthman in 653 AD. This is a sahih hadith on this matter
.
Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 61 :: Hadith 510
Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan (Azerbaijan) . Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)



For Details into the Precision of compilation of the Noble Quran kindly read post # 42 here


http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ption+of+sikhs

[goodwill]

Talibilm,
To address some of your specific points:


1. On John 10:29, we must ask the question, In what sense is the Father greater than all? In honor? Jesus said we must honor the Son as we honor the Father (John 5:23). In power? Jesus said the Son can do what the Father can do (John 5:19). In the context of chapter 10, Jesus went on to speak of the OT judges who were called “gods.” They had authority from God. Is the Father greater than all in the sense of authority? Yes, the Father is “greater than all” in authority, greater than the Son, since he who sends is greater in authority than he who is sent. However, a difference in authority does not imply an inequality of nature, just as your nation’s rulers are greater than you in authority but equal to you in nature or humanity. Note that Jesus Himself uses the word “greater” to mean “greater in authority” as in John 13:16.


2. The verses you cited afterward do not prove anything, nor do they indicate specifically what your point is. Christians are aware of these verses, too. We rejoice to know that we are the sons and daughters of God in Jesus, who is, uniquely, the “only-begotten” Son of God. I might add that God is your Father, too, talibilm—bilmiyor musun?


3. You claimed that the OT was corrupted. Jesus never said the OT was corrupted. Jesus pointed people to the OT. He would not point them to a corrupt book. Even the Quran points people to the Bible. When and where was the OT corrupted? Please provide specific historical evidence to support your claim.


4. The Quran, as I said before, confirms the inspiration, authority, and preservation of the Bible. Even the atheist Bart Ehrman affirms that the message of the NT has been preserved. So you seem to disagree with the Quran as well as Ehrman.


5. I studied ancient Greek formally for 2 years. I can tell you that “most of the Muslim Scholars” are mistaken about the Greek word, “parakletos” or Paraclete, if they really think it should be “periklutos.” The term “periklutos” is not in the Greek original. It is a complete fabrication.


6. You seemed to claim that the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, and the Spirit of Truth are different beings. But in John chapter 14, Jesus calls the same Comforter both the Spirit of Truth (John 14:16) and the Holy Spirit (John 14:26). He is one Being.


7. This Comforter, the Holy Spirit, was “like” Jesus because He did what Jesus did: teaching the disciples and reminding them of God’s word (John 14:27). If you read The Acts of the Apostles, you will see how the promised Holy Spirit worked among the disciples upon whom He was poured out at Pentecost (Acts 2). Let the Bible explain itself. Otherwise, you are ignoring the larger context.


8. Do you also listen to the atheist Ehrman when he rejects the Quran? The disciples did not flee far away after the Crucifixion. They did not have trains, planes, or automobiles back then. The apostle John, in fact, was present at the cross during the Crucifixion (John 19:26,27).


9. The Greek word used in the quote for “dwell” means “remain” or “abide.” It does not imply that the person who dwells must live in a house and eat food. The Holy Spirit continues to abide in and remain with the Church in fact, and not merely metaphorically. And Jesus taught that the Father gives the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him (Luke 11:13). This is obviously not a reference to a future human prophet.


10. The various denominations of Christians make up the one Church. Muslims are also divided into Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi, Alawites, and the Bahais also recognize Muhammad as a prophet. Does that mean Islam is broken?


11. Even if people had misinterpreted and corrupted the Bible, that fact alone would not prove Muhammad was a true prophet. You cannot build your own house by destroying your neighbor’s house.


12. Lastly, you have not refuted the accusation of using an arbitrary methodology. You still quote the NT when its words agree with your preconceptions and reject the NT when its words disagree with your preconceptions. This is the logical fallacy of begging the question. Instead of listening to the NT, as the Quran says to do, you make it say only what you want it to say. Why then do you fault Christians for doing the same thing you are doing?

[Scimitar]

Variations have been noticed. The differences between the Arabic Hafs and Warsh versions are probably the best known. Twenty-six different Arabic Qurans recently displayed in London elicited a boisterous reaction: //www. youtube.com/watch?v=DnorKE_tWHA

So I went to an Islamic bookstore and asked "what versions of Quran do you have?"

he said "go next door to the Good News bookstore and ask them - we like other Islamic bookstores only have the original and remain unaware of 'versions' but our cousins in faith, the Christians have many versions of their New Testament - maybe to cover their embarrassment they also manufacture versions of the Quran... But you know, if you wish to learn how to bake bread, go to a baker not to a cowboy"

Sound advice

Scimi

[goodwill]

But the major difference you are saying is a dilect. It does nothing to oppose any rule or teaching but merely of descriptive differences. No conflict.


:peace:

Some differences between the Quranic texts are more than dialectal. For example, sura 1:4 has malik or maalik depending on the Arabic version, but their translations, “owner” and “king,” obviously differ in meaning. My Muslim neighbor downplayed the difference when I mentioned it. I grant that the difference is small, but the point is that this is an imperfection in textual transmission, contrary to the oft repeated claims of perfect preservation. Other examples: sura 3:146 reads qatala (he killed) in the Hafs reading, but qootila (he was killed) in the Warsh reading. Sura 28:48 reads sihraani (two works of magic) in the Hafs, but saahiraani (two magicians) in the Warsh.

[talibilm]

Talibilm,
To address some of your specific points:


1. On John 10:29, we must ask the question, In what sense is the Father greater than all? In honor? Jesus said we must honor the Son as we honor the Father (John 5:23). In power? Jesus said the Son can do what the Father can do (John 5:19). In the context of chapter 10, Jesus went on to speak of the OT judges who were called “gods.” They had authority from God. Is the Father greater than all in the sense of authority? Yes, the Father is “greater than all” in authority, greater than the Son, since he who sends is greater in authority than he who is sent. However, a difference in authority does not imply an inequality of nature, just as your nation’s rulers are greater than you in authority but equal to you in nature or humanity. Note that Jesus Himself uses the word “greater” to mean “greater in authority” as in John 13:16.

Goodwill, It seems am wasting time with some one who does not know his own NT . there are 110,000 contradictions in the NT and am tired of teaching this to Christians who keep arguing , since its easy to wake up a person sleeping than who pretends to sleep. but still you want it & so here it is.


Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know."


John 5:30 '' I can’t do anything by myself.''

2. The verses you cited afterward do not prove anything, nor do they indicate specifically what your point is. Christians are aware of these verses, too. We rejoice to know that we are the sons and daughters of God in Jesus, who is, uniquely, the “only-begotten” Son of God. I might add that God is your Father, too, talibilm—bilmiyor musun?

Yes , this begotten theory was influence of the polytheist Greeks (in which THE NT was translated first) who ALWAYS believed God had sex to beget (Jupiter, Hercules, see Nude images, lol ) , which is ridiculous which Spoils the honour of God whom you Claim to honor Even Sara in 90's gave birth to Issac though Sara was INFERTILE is BIGGER MIRACLE than Mary who was still fertile. Similar was John born to Zacharia in 90's to his INFERTILE wife Too , is a bigger miracle . So you people have LOST your SENSE when you slander GOD to beget one of his creations by Siring, an animal act. This is what Jesus told which the Comforter will TEACH YOU .


John 16 :8 '' 8 “When he comes, he will show that the world is wrong about sin, about righteousness and about judgment —''

Christians under trinity are under wrong Judgement.

The NOBLE Quran 4:171 '' O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.''

3. You claimed that the OT was corrupted. Jesus never said the OT was corrupted. Jesus pointed people to the OT. He would not point them to a corrupt book. Even the Quran points people to the Bible. When and where was the OT corrupted? Please provide specific historical evidence to support your claim.

There were incidents when Jesus yelled at the Rabbi's for converting the synogogues into Robbers den and also as adulterous generations , and their killing of Prophets & took Intrest and they hid many verses and removed right words from their proper places and made their new words & verses too & Took Ezra as God, says the Noble Quran . Will post those verses when i am able to locate them.

4. The Quran, as I said before, confirms the inspiration, authority, and preservation of the Bible. Even the atheist Bart Ehrman affirms that the message of the NT has been preserved. So you seem to disagree with the Quran as well as Ehrman.

Now I am loosing my interest completely when you even lie on this Open truth & i feel I am just wasting time with time wasters LISTEN to BART WHO IS REALLY WITH SPIRIT OF TRUTH ,IN TRUE SENSE..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-cZncVmtIU

5. I studied ancient Greek formally for 2 years. I can tell you that “most of the Muslim Scholars” are mistaken about the Greek word, “parakletos” or Paraclete, if they really think it should be “periklutos.” The term “periklutos” is not in the Greek original. It is a complete fabrication.

Its known who you are from my above words So It will be clever of me If I beleive my Muslims Scholars who do not lie in matters of Religion.

6. You seemed to claim that the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, and the Spirit of Truth are different beings. But in John chapter 14, Jesus calls the same Comforter both the Spirit of Truth (John 14:16) and the Holy Spirit (John 14:26). He is one Being.

one of the 110,000 contradictions which is NOT NEW TO your scriptures. ;D

7. This Comforter, the Holy Spirit, was “like” Jesus because He did what Jesus did: teaching the disciples and reminding them of God’s word (John 14:27). If you read The Acts of the Apostles, you will see how the promised Holy Spirit worked among the disciples upon whom He was poured out at Pentecost (Acts 2). Let the Bible explain itself. Otherwise, you are ignoring the larger context.

Even I do that and many Christian Priests do that '' teaching the disciples and reminding them of God '' So Everyone became Jesus , Yeah ;D

8. Do you also listen to the atheist Ehrman when he rejects the Quran? The disciples did not flee far away after the Crucifixion. They did not have trains, planes, or automobiles back then. The apostle John, in fact, was present at the cross during the Crucifixion (John 19:26,27).

They fled even to near Italy (ask Bart) each one away from the other for a while suspecting Treachery like Judas did. so could they reassemble in about a month from various places and also 150 of them, in a month.^o)

Its not John but Peter who came to the Roman Court to see the trial of so called Jesus but when he was caught hold by the Soldiers he cried Vehemently & denied knowing Jesus.

9. The Greek word used in the quote for “dwell” means “remain” or “abide.” It does not imply that the person who dwells must live in a house and eat food. The Holy Spirit continues to abide in and remain with the Church in fact, and not merely metaphorically. And Jesus taught that the Father gives the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him (Luke 11:13). This is obviously not a reference to a future human prophet.

Holy spirit here and in many places in John does not mean literally but in figure of speech like Spirit of wisdom spirit of Jealousy which is also known from the NT. We also ask Allah to gives the Spirit of Worshiping him sincerely , it refers to the Zeal TO GUIDANCE and power & stamina (hidayah ) to worship him. LIKE THIS BELOW FROM NT from your frequently quoted Acts But you never realised it what it taught YOU.


Acts 10:38 "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and Power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil,because God was with him."

(Talibilm says : This verse reiterates, Jesus did MIRACLES Because God was with him Not the HOLY SPIRIT WAS WITH HIM :Emoji44: ) s


& also as in here when Holy Spirit that should carry the blessings in it mentioned separately is another Proof.

Isaiah 44:3 '' I will pour out my spirit upon your descendants
and my blessing upon your offspring ''

Proves both are Not one but means different aspects.

10. The various denominations of Christians make up the one Church. Muslims are also divided into Sunni, Shia, Ahmadi, Alawites, and the Bahais also recognize Muhammad as a prophet. Does that mean Islam is broken?

Muslims are less than 10 but with the same BASIC Shahada, 10 VS 41000 , You know who are really split even in the articles of Faith. :embarrass

11. Even if people had misinterpreted and corrupted the Bible, that fact alone would not prove Muhammad was a true prophet. You cannot build your own house by destroying your neighbor’s house.

We Muslims are told to Protect the Neighbours house even if it belongs to an Israeli Jew. We are only asking to repair the Neighbour's house since we Love for others what we love for ourselves (sunnah) :D, But its upto him, if he leaves it to deteroriate .

12. Lastly, you have not refuted the accusation of using an arbitrary methodology. You still quote the NT when its words agree with your preconceptions and reject the NT when its words disagree with your preconceptions. This is the logical fallacy of begging the question. Instead of listening to the NT, as the Quran says to do, you make it say only what you want it to say. Why then do you fault Christians for doing the same thing you are doing?

Bring those verses that Noble Quran said to abide by the NT and lets see what it really said about. :p

[goodwill]

The Noble Quran says The Injeel was from Allah but it has been distorted




5:15-18 ''O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.''By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.''They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?"





Aramaic was The Original language of Jesus & his Injeel but the first known NT after the Influence of Apostle Paul was in Greek and in my opinion The Aramaic speaking Jesus never told this '' I am the Alpha and the Omega,” since they are Greek Alphabets since Jesus never spoke Greek and an example how much the NT could have been distorted with the influence of Polytheists Greeks ?



Caliph Uthman only REAFFIRMED the Noble Quran in 653 AD ( not recompiled nor wrote the earlier Original Quran COMPILED into one book ,{SINCE the Quran Chapters was always there seen in Prophets Sermon** by Abubackr 1 year after Prophet's demise in 633 AD ) into a standard copy in one Quraishi Dialect (as it is read today) with the help of Huffaz or Memorizers of The Noble Quran who were still in 1000's (including kids, The Miracle) & Even the Team for this Purpose under Zaid Bin Thabbit who was also the head of compilation in 633 AD ie one year after Prophet's demise in 632 AD . Caliph Uthman did this to avoid difference in recitations as Islam spread far away from Arabia and that's why he burned those many many parchments in different dialects but the Abu Bakr's Original was returned to Hafsa , the wife of Prophet and was not burned proves the !st Original was no different to the reaffirmed Quran by Uthman in 653 AD. This is a sahih hadith on this matter
.
Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 61 :: Hadith 510
Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan (Azerbaijan) . Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)



For Details into the Precision of compilation of the Noble Quran kindly read post # 42 here


http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ption+of+sikhs

To continue addressing the points you raised yesterday:


13. You claim that the NT was distorted. Please provide specific examples, dates, places, and names. Please also provide the original text alongside the later distorted text, so that we can compare and see if changes were made.


14. Sura 5, which you quoted, goes on to say in verse 47 that Christians should judge Islam by the Gospel (the original Greek word for Gospel, “euangelion,” became “injil” in Arabic). The Quran takes it for granted that: (A) the Gospel was preserved until the time of Muhammad; (B) that the Gospel was still found among Christians; and (C) that the Gospel was still authoritative. Moreover, the sura implies that if the Quran disagrees with the Gospel, Christians should reject Islam. This is a valid principle, since if a prophet comes whose message disagrees with previous Divine revelation, that prophet should not be accepted.


15. Jesus spoke Aramaic, but who says He did not know Greek? Who said the apostle Paul determined the language of the NT? The apostle Paul only wrote part of the NT. Your conjectures and opinions do not constitute valid objections. Greek was widely known in the 1st century A.D., much like English is widely known today. Since the NT was written in Greek, it was accessible to more readers. The Gospel was not meant for only Aramaic speakers. The Gospel is meant for everyone. Even Jesus’s disciple, Peter the fisherman, knew Greek.


16. You say the Quran was written in the Quraishi dialect. But greenhill says in this thread that the the Hafs and the Warsh versions of the Quran represent dialectal differences. Which Quran version is the true Quran in the Quraishi dialect?


17. If we accept hadith 510 at face value, it shows that different versions of the Quran existed in Uthman’s time. But ask yourself—Was Uthman a prophet? Who says Uthman chose the right manuscripts? Being a fallible human, Uthman may have mistakenly burned good manuscripts and kept bad ones.


18. Besides, Uthman’s Quran was not universally accepted by Muslims. Abdullah ibn Masud called it a deception: “The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur’an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him [i.e. Muhammad] whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit” (Ibn Sa’d, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p. 444).


19. Ubayy ibn Ka’b also disagreed with Uthman’s Quran. Sahih al-Bukhari 500: Umar said, “Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an), yet we leave some of what he recites.” Ubayy says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Messenger and will not leave it for anything whatever.”


20. Before Uthman, even Muslim sources say that parts of the Quran were lost:
Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif: “Many (of the passages) of the Qur’an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama . . . but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur’an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them.”


21. Muhammad’s companion Abu Musa reported that two surahs of the Quran had been forgotten. Sahih Muslim 2286: Abu Musa al-Ash’ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur’an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: “If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.” And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it…


22. In addition, a sheep ate part of the original Quran, and so this part was lost too:
Sunan ibn Majah 1944: “It was narrated that Aishah said: ‘The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.’” (Hasan)


For context regarding the breastfeeding of adults and the verses’ initial inclusion in the Quran, see Sahih Muslim 3597 & 3598: “It was narrated that Aishah said: ‘Among the things that were revealed of the Quran was that ten definite breastfeeding make a person a Mahram, then that was abrogated and replaced with five definite breastfeedings, and the Messenger of Allah passed away when this was among the things that were recited of the Quran.’” And, “It was narrated from Amrah that she heard Aishah say when she was mentioning what kind of breastfeeding makes a person a Mahram—Ten definite breastfeedings were revealed in the Quran, then five definite breastfeeding were revealed too.” And Sahih Muslim 3600: “It was narrated that Aishah said: ’Sahlah bint Suhail came to the prophet and said: O Messenger of Allah, I see (signs of displeasure) on the face of Abu Hudhaifah when Salim—who was his ally—comes in. The Prophet said: “Breastfeed him.” She said: “How can I breastfeed him? He is a grown man.” The Messenger of Allah smiled and said: “I known that he is a grown man.”’”


Note these verses were said to be “revealed in the Quran,” and yet they are missing from all Qurans today.

23. Finally, Quranic manuscript scholar Tayyar Altıkulaç says of the earliest manuscripts (mushaf): “There are small differences in spelling that do not affect the basic essence, but there is nothing at all affecting the essence.” (The original Turkish is just as redundant: Küçük, basit esasıyla ilgisi olmayan imla farklılıkları var ama esası ilgilendiren hiçbir şey yok.) Altıkulaç was trying to put a positive spin on his research, but he is essentially admitting that the ancient Quranic manuscripts that he knows of do not agree perfectly with today’s Qurans. (The original article in Turkish is here: http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/ku...di-mi-1013554/ )

[talibilm]

To continue addressing the points you raised yesterday:


13. You claim that the NT was distorted. Please provide specific examples,dates ?? :phew, places, and names. Please also provide the original text alongside the later distorted text, so that we can compare and see if changes were made.

Lol, No History can be PROVED since there is no eye witness now. Historians write the History by taking events from their own resources and conclude what the Event PROBABLY COULD BE. ( Talibilm's conclusion is better since he takes the resources from outside sources as well, not only islamic )

if you ask a Historian did a incident happened EXACTLY AT that particular date & time ?? No one could reply it since there is no eye witness who live now and even eye witness may make some mistakes of ASSUMPTION :phew if you ask a greatest historian his views and other Historian views (dates, proofs ) are not the same . Like in the battle of -------- ive forgot the incident just during or after Crusades the History from the most Civilsed nation in Europe cannot exactly say how the hero of the Battle died ? they give three Scenarios.

But All we can declare is from the Noble Quran which even foretold about the saving of the body of Pharoah which even its first source THE OLD TESTAMENT utterly Missed it when the Pharoh's body was discovered in 1896 in a miraculously preserved form proves that the Noble Quran is from the Same Creator of Moses who saved Moses(who foretold coming of Jesus & Muhammad pbut) and his people and who saved the Pharaoh's body from the depth of the ocean's Sea Bed as he was in forefront leading his army when all other's at his back disappeared like a needle in the Red sea. A greatest unthinkable miracle ONLY THE ALL WISE NOBLE QURAN OWNS and not even the OT, its first source ;D

Only this POINT of 'date & time ' of Your's will take me many many pages to explain and there still plenty in the history of Prophets , Incidents, moral, laws etc but i will make it some of them mainly on the Main point of One God .(heard apologetics take the Muslim critics view like me and are planning to re-correct their books in their future , hope you are not studying for it when you ask all THESE numerous Q;s)

LIKE Changes made in the NT in the event of Satan's dispute with Allah on Adam's Creation.


NOBLE QURAN 2:30 '' Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." .....We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.


Noble Quran ''And the jinn We created before from scorching fire.''

Iblees the servant & Jinn was created from fire but was the head of the angels as also seen from the below verses of Hebrew.


We can say these following verses RELATE THE SAME STORY in the above verse of Noble Quran though you might not accept it. This the replacement of words from its real places as the Noble Quran exposes.



1) “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”?[b]

Also, God never said of any angel,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son.”[c]

6 And again, when God brings his Firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[d]

7 Indeed, when speaking of angels, he says,

“. . . who makes his angels winds
and his servants fiery flames”;





The fault or replacement abovein the Hebrews 1:7 is '' My son'' which is ''My Vicegerent or Calipha '' in our book and ''worship him'' is supposed to be ''Prostrate to him '' (out of respect ) as in the Noble quran

'' God's FIRSTBORN '' is obvious a contradiction too in Hebrews when it contradicts itself in EXODUS below

Exodus 4:22 (KJV)


22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn .

That will Make Jesus 3nd born after David who is also called the son. So 'My frstborn' as in above is an interpolation.


So first cannot be Two so both are mistakes but it ought to MAXIMUM be Only the SON ( Close to God like Vicegerent or Caliph in Arabic) and the Son being used as a figure of Speech.


2) Genesis 1:27[Full Chapter]
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Note : This does not mean God's own Image ( Bible says no Image for God ) but it rather Implies to the REAL OWN IMAGE OF ADAM's YOUTH not in form of baby or Toddler which every man human has to go through in stages .
Other verses of bible like God walking to Sarah and eating Hot cakes & fried calf meat and doing that to her are ridiculous when Compared to the enlightener Noble Quran when The True Creator need not Eat and giggle and walk to Sarah but Sends his order of Spirit to Sarah through his servant Angel above from the skies from his throne, the arsh as seen . Lot,


HOW MEANING CAN CHANGE IN TRANSLATION IN BIBLE
To find the exact meaning in modern English of those ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek terms, phrases, and sentences is very challenging. Sometimes the original words have no exact counterpart in English, so several English words may be required to reproduce the precise meaning. And English is constantly changing, as some of our words take on new meanings like the 4 letter filthy word F are used to mean which in not filthy anymore . For example, the word "gay" means something quite different today than it meant fifty years ago.

like in this funny video 'I am happy & Gay ' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5lX96qH4bQ

Just fifty years can make such difference so how about 2000 years ??


JESUS ATTENDED THE SYNOGOGUE, SO WHOM DID HE WORSHIP ?
In the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5–7), Jesus continually affirmed the authority of the Torah and the Prophets (Matthew 5:17) even in the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 5:19-20). He regularly attended synagogue (Luke 4:16), and His teaching was respected by the other Jews of His day (Luke 4:15). He taught in the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (Luke 21:37), and if He were not a Jew, His going into that part of the Temple would simply not have been allowed (Acts 21:28-30 )

So If Jesus's teachings were respected by those contemporary orthodox Jews why it was NOT respected later and Now when the Jews called the followers of Christians as Polytheists ??



Noble Quran 19:88-92 says


''They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!''


"Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!''


'At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin''

''That they should invoke a son for (Allah) THE Most Gracious.''

''For it is not consonant with THE Majesty of (Allah) ''
'
'THE Most Gracious that He should beget a son''





Noble Quran 3:66 ''Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have NO knowledge ??? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not.''


"I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god, Who is like me? " (Isaiah 44:6-7. The bible)


So the rest in next inshallah.

14. Sura 5, which you quoted, goes on to say in verse 47 that Christians should judge Islam by the Gospel (the original Greek word for Gospel, “euangelion,” became “injil” in Arabic). The Quran takes it for granted that: (A) the Gospel was preserved until the time of Muhammad; (B) that the Gospel was still found among Christians; and (C) that the Gospel was still authoritative. Moreover, the sura implies that if the Quran disagrees with the Gospel, Christians should reject Islam. This is a valid principle, since if a prophet comes whose message disagrees with previous Divine revelation, that prophet should not be accepted.


15. Jesus spoke Aramaic, but who says He did not know Greek? Who said the apostle Paul determined the language of the NT? The apostle Paul only wrote part of the NT. Your conjectures and opinions do not constitute valid objections. Greek was widely known in the 1st century A.D., much like English is widely known today. Since the NT was written in Greek, it was accessible to more readers. The Gospel was not meant for only Aramaic speakers. The Gospel is meant for everyone. Even Jesus’s disciple, Peter the fisherman, knew Greek.


16. You say the Quran was written in the Quraishi dialect. But greenhill says in this thread that the the Hafs and the Warsh versions of the Quran represent dialectal differences. Which Quran version is the true Quran in the Quraishi dialect?


17. If we accept hadith 510 at face value, it shows that different versions of the Quran existed in Uthman’s time. But ask yourself—Was Uthman a prophet? Who says Uthman chose the right manuscripts? Being a fallible human, Uthman may have mistakenly burned good manuscripts and kept bad ones.


18. Besides, Uthman’s Quran was not universally accepted by Muslims. Abdullah ibn Masud called it a deception: “The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur’an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him [i.e. Muhammad] whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit” (Ibn Sa’d, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p. 444).


19. Ubayy ibn Ka’b also disagreed with Uthman’s Quran. Sahih al-Bukhari 500: Umar said, “Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an), yet we leave some of what he recites.” Ubayy says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Messenger and will not leave it for anything whatever.”


20. Before Uthman, even Muslim sources say that parts of the Quran were lost:
Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif: “Many (of the passages) of the Qur’an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama . . . but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur’an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them.”


21. Muhammad’s companion Abu Musa reported that two surahs of the Quran had been forgotten. Sahih Muslim 2286: Abu Musa al-Ash’ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur’an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: “If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.” And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it…


22. In addition, a sheep ate part of the original Quran, and so this part was lost too:
Sunan ibn Majah 1944: “It was narrated that Aishah said: ‘The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.’” (Hasan)


For context regarding the breastfeeding of adults and the verses’ initial inclusion in the Quran, see Sahih Muslim 3597 & 3598: “It was narrated that Aishah said: ‘Among the things that were revealed of the Quran was that ten definite breastfeeding make a person a Mahram, then that was abrogated and replaced with five definite breastfeedings, and the Messenger of Allah passed away when this was among the things that were recited of the Quran.’” And, “It was narrated from Amrah that she heard Aishah say when she was mentioning what kind of breastfeeding makes a person a Mahram—Ten definite breastfeedings were revealed in the Quran, then five definite breastfeeding were revealed too.” And Sahih Muslim 3600: “It was narrated that Aishah said: ’Sahlah bint Suhail came to the prophet and said: O Messenger of Allah, I see (signs of displeasure) on the face of Abu Hudhaifah when Salim—who was his ally—comes in. The Prophet said: “Breastfeed him.” She said: “How can I breastfeed him? He is a grown man.” The Messenger of Allah smiled and said: “I known that he is a grown man.”’”


Note these verses were said to be “revealed in the Quran,” and yet they are missing from all Qurans today.

23. Finally, Quranic manuscript scholar Tayyar Altıkulaç says of the earliest manuscripts (mushaf): “There are small differences in spelling that do not affect the basic essence, but there is nothing at all affecting the essence.” (The original Turkish is just as redundant: Küçük, basit esasıyla ilgisi olmayan imla farklılıkları var ama esası ilgilendiren hiçbir şey yok.) Altıkulaç was trying to put a positive spin on his research, but he is essentially admitting that the ancient Quranic manuscripts that he knows of do not agree perfectly with today’s Qurans. (The original article in Turkish is here: http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/ku...di-mi-1013554/ )

[dwa2day]

A Biblical Portal Between Christianity and Islam

There is no better ................................God. I do not have space in this article to explore the many Qur’anic verses directly addressed to Christians, but if we were to receive them our religion would be transformed for the better and would come into balance with Judaism and Islam.
- Shabnam Mayet

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ian-me...b_9762934.html

Now that would make Satan shake turn cold in fear and kill hells fires. Actually the contemplation of this brings tears of joy to my eyes.

[dwa2day]

Wow what a lesson. Thank you. I have just started exploring Islam, never expected this divergence in Islam.

Look forward to the next installment.


Regards
Doug

[Abz2000]

Would like to add some info on 14, 15 and 22 by goodwill
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post2926005
it seems that some prefer to argue in bad faith than to come together upon the truth..indicates volumes as regards motive. Real believers in Allah who accepted the signs and messengers of Allah and did their best to obey Allah will be united in paradise.

Bear in mind that these are not answers, just info:

In point 14, you implied that since it is atated in the Quran:
وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ الإِنجِيلِ بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فِيهِ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ {47
005:047 Khan
:
Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fasiqun (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allah.


it might mean that Allah is saying that the books remain in pristine condition.
However the fact that they have been edited is clarified in Chapter 2 of the Quran, here:

فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَـذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ {79
002:079 Khan
:
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby.

You may already know of the biblical curses condemning the corrupt scribes and pharisees.

It appears that Allah, by telling them to judge by what Allah has reavealed therein will come to the truth anyway, this can be seen in the fact that once Allah sent the Prophet pbuh, He made him an automatic reference point just as they had previously with Jesus, though they had the book before them they would come to him for judgement, and even though some of them falsely claimed to disbelieve in what he had been sent with, they would still have to come to him ultimately (though some of them tried to get concessions via deception and false symmetrical hacks (ancient babylonian sorcey), this can be seen again in the following verse:


وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِندَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللّهِ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّوْنَ مِن بَعْدِ ذَلِكَ وَمَا أُوْلَـئِكَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ {43
005:043
:
But how do they come to you for decision while they have the Taurat (Torah), in which is the decision of Allah; yet even after that, they turn away. For they are not (really) believers.


Notice that a question is posed requiring them to probe their own minds.
For if they accept the guidance of those books they would come to the truth anyway, and if they believed in them sincerely, they would try to adhere to them completely, then they would end up upgrading to Islam anyway since they would see the truth and more fitting guidance.

For those who reject what they don't like of the previous scriptures, Allah asks them: is it that you believe in a part if the book and reject a part?
If it's all true and no additions have been made, you may ask yourself why nobody has implemented it since just before the advent of Muhammad pbuh despite there being no political constraint.

Allah sent the new law when people needed it.
The tribal experiment was over and people were beginning to mingle more.
He wasn't making their faith vain, but rather upgrading and completing it.

In point 15, you memtioned greek, although most of us know that Aramaic was the spoken language, greek appears to have only become a big factor after the dawah was spread to the region, the initial target audience were the jews, as can be seen from the crumbs under table statement.
Not that there's much to argue about.


Regarding point 22 on the issue of suckling, the five and ten feeds thing appears to be about babies who were within the age of suckling, that a one off or so feed doesn't make a person a foster child.



Regarding the suckling of salim the ex-adopted son and later slave, there is much confusion and Allah knows best, but the older and more mature mothers of the believers appear to have taken Aishah (ra)'s claim at face value but stated that it would have been a one off for salim, and that it was unacceptable for them.
I cannot find any reports that indicate that the Prophet pbuh had made that concession for anybody else.



Ibn Abu Mulaika reported that al-Qasim b. Muhammad b. Abu Bakr had narrated to him
that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail b. 'Amr came to Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) and said:
Messenger of Allah, Salim (the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa) is living with us in our house, and he has attained (puberty) as men attain it and has acquired knowledge (of the sex problems) as men acquire, whereupon he said: Suckle him so that he may become unlawful (in regard to marriage) for you He (Ibn Abu Mulaika) said: I refrained from (narrating this hadith) for a year or so on account of fear. I then met al-Qasim and said to him: You narrated to me a hadith which I did not narrate (to anyone) afterwards. He said: What is that? I informed him, whereupon he said: Narrate it on my authority that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) had narrated that to me.

وَحَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ رَافِعٍ، - وَاللَّفْظُ لاِبْنِ رَافِعٍ - قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ جُرَيْجٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ، أَنَّ الْقَاسِمَ بْنَ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ، أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّ عَائِشَةَ أَخْبَرَتْهُ أَنَّ سَهْلَةَ بِنْتَ سُهَيْلِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو جَاءَتِ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَتْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّ سَالِمًا - لِسَالِمٍ مَوْلَى أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ - مَعَنَا فِي بَيْتِنَا وَقَدْ بَلَغَ مَا يَبْلُغُ الرِّجَالُ وَعَلِمَ مَا يَعْلَمُ الرِّجَالُ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏ "‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ تَحْرُمِي عَلَيْهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَمَكَثْتُ سَنَةً أَوْ قَرِيبًا مِنْهَا لاَ أُحَدِّثُ بِهِ وَهِبْتُهُ ثُمَّ لَقِيتُ الْقَاسِمَ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ لَقَدْ حَدَّثْتَنِي حَدِيثًا مَا حَدَّثْتُهُ بَعْدُ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَمَا هُوَ فَأَخْبَرْتُهُ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَحَدِّثْهُ عَنِّي أَنَّ عَائِشَةَ أَخْبَرَتْنِيهِ ‏.‏
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1453 c
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 35
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3426
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Umm Salama said to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her):
A young boy who is at the threshold of puberty comes to you. I, however, do not like that he should come to me, whereupon 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) said: Don't you see in Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) a model for you? She also said: The wife of Abu Hudhaifa said: Messenger of Allah, Salim comes to me and now he is a (grown-up) person, and there is something that (rankles) in the mind of Abu Hudhaifa about him, whereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: Suckle him (so that he may become your foster-child), and thus he may be able to come to you (freely).

وَحَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ، عَنْ حُمَيْدِ بْنِ نَافِعٍ، عَنْ زَيْنَبَ بِنْتِ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ، قَالَتْ قَالَتْ أُمُّ سَلَمَةَ لِعَائِشَةَ إِنَّهُ يَدْخُلُ عَلَيْكِ الْغُلاَمُ الأَيْفَعُ الَّذِي مَا أُحِبُّ أَنْ يَدْخُلَ عَلَىَّ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَقَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ أَمَا لَكِ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أُسْوَةٌ قَالَتْ إِنَّ امْرَأَةَ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ قَالَتْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّ سَالِمًا يَدْخُلُ عَلَىَّ وَهُوَ رَجُلٌ وَفِي نَفْسِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ مِنْهُ شَىْءٌ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ حَتَّى يَدْخُلَ عَلَيْكِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1453 d
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 36
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3427
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Zainab daughter of Abu Salama reported:
I heard Umm Salama, the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon himy, saying to 'A'isha: By Allah, I do not like to be seen by a young boy who has passed the period of fosterage, whereupon she ('A'isha) said: Why is it so? Sahla daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and said: Allah's Messenger, I swear by Allah that I see in the face of Abu Hudhaifa (the signs of disgust) on account of entering of Salim (in the house), whereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: Suckle him. She (Sahla bint Suhail) said: He has a heard. But he (again) said: Suckle him, and it would remove what is there (expression of disgust) on the face of Abu Hudhaifa. She said: (I did that) and, by Allah, I did not see (any sign of disgust) on the face of Abu Hudhaifa.

وَحَدَّثَنِي أَبُو الطَّاهِرِ، وَهَارُونُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ الأَيْلِيُّ، - وَاللَّفْظُ لِهَارُونَ - قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، أَخْبَرَنِي مَخْرَمَةُ بْنُ بُكَيْرٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ حُمَيْدَ بْنَ نَافِعٍ، يَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ زَيْنَبَ، بِنْتَ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ تَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ أُمَّ سَلَمَةَ، زَوْجَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم تَقُولُ لِعَائِشَةَ وَاللَّهِ مَا تَطِيبُ نَفْسِي أَنْ يَرَانِي الْغُلاَمُ قَدِ اسْتَغْنَى عَنِ الرَّضَاعَةِ ‏.‏ فَقَالَتْ لِمَ قَدْ جَاءَتْ سَهْلَةُ بِنْتُ سُهَيْلٍ إِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَتْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهِ إِنِّي لأَرَى فِي وَجْهِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ مِنْ دُخُولِ سَالِمٍ ‏.‏ قَالَتْ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَتْ إِنَّهُ ذُو لِحْيَةٍ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ يَذْهَبْ مَا فِي وَجْهِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَتْ وَاللَّهِ مَا عَرَفْتُهُ فِي وَجْهِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ ‏.‏
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1453 e
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 37
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3428
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Umm Salama, the wife of Allah's Apostle (ﷺ), used to say that all wives of Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) disclaimed the idea that one with this type of fosterage (having been suckled after the proper period) should come to them. and said to 'A'isha:
By Allah, we do not find this but a sort of concession given by Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) only for Salim, and no one was going to be allowed to enter (our houses) with this type of fosterage and we do not subscribe to this view.

حَدَّثَنِي عَبْدُ الْمَلِكِ بْنُ شُعَيْبِ بْنِ اللَّيْثِ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي، عَنْ جَدِّي، حَدَّثَنِي عُقَيْلُ بْنُ، خَالِدٍ عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، أَنَّهُ قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ زَمْعَةَ، أَنَّ أُمَّهُ، زَيْنَبَ بِنْتَ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ أَخْبَرَتْهُ أَنَّ أُمَّهَا أُمَّ سَلَمَةَ زَوْجَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَانَتْ تَقُولُ أَبَى سَائِرُ أَزْوَاجِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنْ يُدْخِلْنَ عَلَيْهِنَّ أَحَدًا بِتِلْكَ الرَّضَاعَةِ وَقُلْنَ لِعَائِشَةَ وَاللَّهِ مَا نَرَى هَذَا إِلاَّ رُخْصَةً أَرْخَصَهَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم لِسَالِمٍ خَاصَّةً فَمَا هُوَ بِدَاخِلٍ عَلَيْنَا أَحَدٌ بِهَذِهِ الرَّضَاعَةِ وَلاَ رَائِينَا.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1454
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 38
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3429
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'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) visited me when a man was sitting near me, and he seemed to disapprove of that. And I saw signs of anger on his face and I said: Messenger of Allah, he is my brother by forsterage, whereupon he said: Consider who your brothers are because of fosterage since fosterage is through hunger (i. e. in infancy).


حَدَّثَنَا هَنَّادُ بْنُ السَّرِيِّ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الأَحْوَصِ، عَنْ أَشْعَثَ بْنِ أَبِي الشَّعْثَاءِ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ مَسْرُوقٍ، قَالَ قَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ دَخَلَ عَلَىَّ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَعِنْدِي رَجُلٌ قَاعِدٌ فَاشْتَدَّ ذَلِكَ عَلَيْهِ وَرَأَيْتُ الْغَضَبَ فِي وَجْهِهِ قَالَتْ فَقُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّهُ أَخِي مِنَ الرَّضَاعَةِ ‏.‏ قَالَتْ فَقَالَ ‏ "‏ انْظُرْنَ إِخْوَتَكُنَّ مِنَ الرَّضَاعَةِ فَإِنَّمَا الرَّضَاعَةُ مِنَ الْمَجَاعَةِ‏".
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1455 a
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 39
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3430
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http://sunnah.com/muslim/17



The narration goes as;
عن عائشة قالت لقد نزلت آية الرجم ورضاعة الكبير عشرا ولقد كان في صحيفة تحت سريري فلما مات رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وتشاغلنا بموته دخل داجن فأكلها
Reported 'Aisha (RA): ‘the verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times was revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) expired and we were occupied by his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.’ (Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith 1944)
1- Authenticity of the narration:
Whenever we have a narration we ought to see whether it is authentic or not? The narration infact has some problems.
The particular chain given in Sunan Ibn Majah finds one of the narrators Muhammad bin Ishaq narrating it using the word عن ('an) which is rather an ambiguous way of narration and renders the narration weak when used by a narrator known for practicing Tadlis [practice of subtly missing a link] and Muhammad Ibn Ishaq is indeed such a narrator. Thus through particular chain of narration in Sunan Ibn Majah the narration is weak and unauthentic due the above mentioned defect though it has other issues as well as mentioned in the lines to follow. This is clarified by Shaykh Muhammad Taqi Usmani in Takmala Fath Al-Mulhim 1/69 pub. Darul Ahya Al-Turath Al-Arabi, Beirut.
In Musnad Ahmad the same narration is given through the same chain but with an explicit way of narration i.e. it does not have the defect like the narration in Ibn Majah’s collection. But the narration is exposed to more criticism because many other narrators have related from 'Aisha (RA) about the suckling/breastfeeding but no one has narrated the words found in this chain even though the narrators in those cases are more reliable and consistent than Muhammad bin Ishaq. And due to thefact of these words being narrated solely by him and in defiance to other much more reliable narrators, scholars have questioned its authenticity. Shaykh Shu’aib Arnaud has classified it as Da’if in his classification of Musnad Ahmad. See Musnad Ahmad 6/269 Hadith 26359.
2- The narration no way questions Qur’an infallibility:

1- One of the two allegedly lost verses as per this narration was about stoning i.e. punishment of married adulterers. But other narrations prove that a commandment was revealed about stoning but the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did not allow it to be written as a part of the Qur’an implying that it was not meant to be Qur’an integral part. Following narrations testify to this;
a-It is reported in a narration from Kathir bin Salt that: Zaid (b. Thabit) said: 'I heard the Messenger of Allah say, 'When a married man or woman commit adultery stone them both (to death)', (hearing this) Amr said,
فقال عمرو : لما نزلت أتيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقلت : أكتبها ؟ فكأنه كره ذلك

'When this was revealed I came to Prophet and asked if I could write it, he (the Prophet) disliked it.' (Mustadrik Al-Hakim, Hadith 8184. Hakim called it Sahih)
b- About this 'verse' Kathir bin Salt says that he, Zaid bin Thabit and Marwan bin Hakam were discussing as to why it is not written in the Quranic manuscript and Umar bin Khattab was present with them and listening to their discussion he said he knew it better then them and told them that he came to Messenger of Allah and said:
يا رسول الله أكتبني آية الرجم قال فأتيته فذكرته قال فذكر آية الرجم قال فقال يا رسول الله أكتبني آية الرجم قال لا استطيع ذاك
"'O Messenger of Allah, let the verse about stoning be written for me.' He (the Prophet) said, 'I can't do this.'" (Sunan Al-Kubra Baihiqi 8/211 & Sunan Al-Kubra Nasai Hadith 7148. Albani (in Sahiha 6/412) said Baihiqi pointed to its authenticity)
Had it meant to be a part of the Qur’an why would Holy Prophet (PBUH) dislike its being written and who could stop him from doing it?
2- The second allegedly lost verse was about suckling of an adult ten times buut in this case too we have other narrations which categorically say that the verse was abrogated. And interestingly those narrations come through 'Aisha (RA) only. In Sahih Muslim we read;

عَنْ عَائِشَةَ أَنَّهَا قَالَتْ كَانَ فِيمَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ عَشْرُ رَضَعَاتٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ يُحَرِّمْنَ ثُمَّ نُسِخْنَ بِخَمْسٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ فَتُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَهُنَّ فِيمَا يُقْرَأُ مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings ... (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 2634)

This narration explicitly says that verse about ten sucklings was abrogated, one could wonder how it could have been under her pillow after the completion of revelation.

Having known that neither of them was meant to be part of the Qur’an; even if we accept the narration in question we will have to say that perhaps 'Aisha (RA) had kept them with her as a historical record and nothing more.


Also the claim of stoning being a Quranic verse and not a statement of the Prophet pbuh is to be looked at:

Ibn Majah
Hadith no: 2553
Narrated / Authority Of: Ibn Abbas
that Umar bin Khattab said: "I fear that after a long time has passed, some will say: 'I do not find (the sentence of) stoning in the Book of Allah (saw),' and they will go astray by abandoning one of the obligations enjoined by Allah (SWT). Rather stoning is a must if a man is married (or previously married) and proof is established, or if pregnancy results or if he admits it. I have read it (in the Quran). "And if an old man and an old woman commit adultery, stone them both." The Messenger of Allah (saw) stoned (adulterers) and we stoned (them) after him.' " Sahih

It appears here that it is a previous sunnah revived by the Prophet pbuh which sheds light on why he wouldn't allow it to be written down:

Ibn Majah
Hadith no: 2558
Narrated / Authority Of: Bara bin Azib
"The Messenger of Allah (saw) passed by a Jew with a blackened face who had been flogged. He called them and said: 'Is this the punishment for the adulterer that you find in your Book?' They said: 'Yes.' Then he called one of their scholars and said: 'I adjure you by Allah (SWT) Who sent down the Tawrah (Torah) to Musa! Is this the punishment for the adulterer that you find in your Book?' He said: 'No; if you had not adjured me by Allah (SWT), I would not have told you. The punishment for the adulterer that we find in our Book is stoning, but many of our nobles were being stoned (because of the prevalence of adultery among them), so if we caught one of our nobles (committing adultery), we would let him go; but if we caught one of the weak among us, we would carry out the punishment on him. We said: "Come, let us agree upon something that we may impose on both noble and weak alike." So we agreed to blacken the face and whip them, instead of stoning.' The Prophet (saw) said: 'O Allah (SWT), I am the first of those who revive your command which they had killed off,' and he issued orders that (the man) be stoned." Sahih





There does appear to be much confusion with this stoning and suckling and goat eating thing and Allah knows best, it may possible have been built up on the confusion caused during the accusations..
..

My sickness was aggravated, and when I returned home, Allah's Apostle came to me, and after greeting he said, 'How is that (girl)?' I requested him to allow me to go to my parents. I wanted then to be sure of the news through them I Allah's Apostle allowed me, and I went to my parents and asked my mother, 'What are the people talking about?' She said, 'O my daughter! Don't worry much about this matter. By Allah, never is there a charming woman loved by her husband who has other wives, but the women would forge false news about her.' I said, 'Glorified be Allah! Are the people really taking of this matter?' That night I kept on weeping and could not sleep till morning. In the morning Allah's Apostle called Ali bin Abu Talib and Usama bin Zaid when he saw the Divine Inspiration delayed, to consul them about divorcing his wife (i.e. 'Aisha). Usama bin Zaid said what he knew of the good reputation of his wives and added, 'O Allah's Apostle! Keep you wife, for, by Allah, we know nothing about her but good.' 'Ali bin Abu Talib said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Allah has no imposed restrictions on you, and there are many women other than she, yet you may ask the woman-servant who will tell you the truth.' On that Allah's Apostle called Buraira and said, 'O Burair. Did you ever see anything which roused your suspicions about her?' Buraira said, 'No, by Allah Who has sent you with the Truth, I have never seen in her anything faulty except that she is a girl of immature age, who sometimes sleeps and leaves the dough for the goats to eat.' On that day Allah's Apostle ascended the pulpit and requested that somebody support him in punishing 'Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul. Allah's Apostle said, 'Who will support me to punish that person ('Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul) who has hurt me by slandering the reputation of my family? By Allah, I know nothing about my family but good, and they have accused a person about whom I know nothing except good, and he never entered my house except in my company.'

Sad bin Mu'adh got up and said, 'O Allah's Apostle! by Allah, I will relieve you from him. If that man is from the tribe of the Aus, then we will chop his head off, and if he is from our brothers, the Khazraj, then order us, and we will fulfill your order.' On that Sad bin 'Ubada, the chief of the Khazraj and before this incident, he had been a pious man, got up, motivated by his zeal for his tribe and said, 'By Allah, you have told a lie; you cannot kill him, and you will never be able to kill him.' On that Usaid bin Al-Hadir got up and said (to Sad bin 'Ubada), 'By Allah! you are a liar. By Allah, we will kill him; and you are a hypocrite, defending the hypocrites.' On this the two tribes of Aus and Khazraj got excited and were about to fight each other, while Allah's Apostle was standing on the pulpit. He got down and quietened them till they became silent and he kept quiet. On that day I kept on weeping so much so that neither did my tears stop, nor could I sleep......


http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh3/bh3_828.htm

[dwa2day]

Hi Talibilm.
I have been following this thread and mind the discussion most informative. I am realy intrested in the your claim regarding the NT contradictions.

there are 110,000 contradictions in the NT and am tired of teaching this to Christians who keep arguing , …….
Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know."
John 5:30 '' I can’t do anything by myself.''

Goodwill ask you

13. You claim that the NT was distorted. Please provide specific examples, dates, places, and names. Please also provide the original text alongside the later distorted text, so that we can compare and see if changes were made.

Your reply to this is

Lol, No History can be PROVED since there is no eye witness now.

This total avoids your claim that there are 110,000 contradictions. You state you have these contradictions in detail and are tired of teaching them. Yet fail to offer a reference to your source. However later on you suddenly have certain referances.

Exodus 4:22 (KJV)
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn .

With a reference one has the opertunity to confirm your claim with in your argument. As with Exodus 4:22 you have quoted it correctly.
However with reference to your 110,000 contradictions it is clear you have fabricated and changed and or omitted words to make a point that is untrue. For example your first contradiction is Act 2:22 noted above and again here.

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know."

You even highlighted your deceit. I have referenced for you four different translation for you, all have through Him as part of the text.
^{Acts 2:22 KJV 22} “O men of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus of Nazareth by doing tremendous miracles through him, as you well know.
^{Acts 2:22 NKJV} “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—
^{Acts 2:22 NIV} ‘Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
^{Acts2:22 TLB} “O men of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus of Nazareth by doing tremendous miracles through him, as you well know.


So what is my point.
I started exploring this site a few days ago, my aim to learn about Islam as my understanding is it is a rich solid faith. However you are the second person who openly has changed text to make an unfounded case for Islam. So here is my question to you.
Is Islam based of a principle of truth or deceit? If truth why is it an accept practise to openly deceive others?
Regards
Doug

[dwa2day]

Would like to add some info on 14, 15 and 22 by goodwill
..............................

Your explanation is detailed and informative, however is miss the fact and based on the evidence presented the Quran has been changed, there are different versions in circulation today, historic leaders of the Islamic community have known this. A therefore does not support the Islamic claim the Quran is the unchanged words of Allah as claimed.

[talibilm]

Hi Talibilm.
I have been following this thread and mind the discussion most informative. I am realy intrested in the your claim regarding the NT contradictions.

Goodwill ask you

Your reply to this is


This total avoids your claim that there are 110,000 contradictions. You state you have these contradictions in detail and are tired of teaching them. Yet fail to offer a reference to your source. However later on you suddenly have certain referances.

With a reference one has the opertunity to confirm your claim with in your argument. As with Exodus 4:22 you have quoted it correctly.
However with reference to your 110,000 contradictions it is clear you have fabricated and changed and or omitted words to make a point that is untrue. For example your first contradiction is Act 2:22 noted above and again here.


You even highlighted your deceit. I have referenced for you four different translation for you, all have through Him as part of the text.
^{Acts 2:22 KJV 22} “O men of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus of Nazareth by doing tremendous miracles through him, as you well know.
^{Acts 2:22 NKJV} “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—
^{Acts 2:22 NIV} ‘Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
^{Acts2:22 TLB} “O men of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus of Nazareth by doing tremendous miracles through him, as you well know.


So what is my point.
I started exploring this site a few days ago, my aim to learn about Islam as my understanding is it is a rich solid faith. However you are the second person who openly has changed text to make an unfounded case for Islam. So here is my question to you.
Is Islam based of a principle of truth or deceit? If truth why is it an accept practise to openly deceive others?
Regards
Doug

Hi Doug ,It appears you jump into conclusion in hurry since you had already judged some one (like me ) before you write
I've taken from my files where i had stored in my file with other Acts verses LONG AGO , but the version is not noted with it OR It might be I 've taken from a website . so let me FIRST paste my quote

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know."

So It ALL THE SAME LIKE YOUR OTHER QUOTES ABOVE & BELOW


^{Acts 2:22 KJV 22} “O men of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus of Nazareth by doing tremendous miracles through him, as you well know.
^{Acts 2:22 NKJV} “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—
^{Acts 2:22 NIV} ‘Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
^{Acts2:22 TLB} “O men of Israel, listen! God publicly endorsed Jesus of Nazareth by doing tremendous miracles through him, as you well know.


Lol, SO WHERE IS THE DECEIT ??? BUT I WILL FORGIVE YOU FOR YOUR SLIP OF WORDS :D SINCE ALL PROPHETS TOLD ME TO DO THAT. :D

ABOUT 110,000 CONTRADICTIONS , I GET THIS FROM candyapple of the ummah .com who is an EXPERT in debates with so many Apologetics Like Arbed, Causative, aj4u etc etc who NEVER EVER refused or refuted that claim when argued with them & you are the first to raise . Frankly I do not have time Or wished to see into those LONG LIST of 110,000 contradictions ;D nor I am interested to finds those lengthy lists of faults but am arguing only on those which i see it clearly by my conscience MAINLY MY INTEREST ON THE ISSUE OF ONE INCOMPARABLE GOD, THE CREATOR.

I was not free enough to answer you or Goodwills LENGTHY LIST since i had already answered goodwill's lengthy lists IN A SHORT ANSWER though Inshallah I will answer other Q's of goodwill later which you may also find in Ummah .com '' Misquoted Noble Quran verses by Apologetics '' thread

So i will answer other questions IF Am FREE ENOUGH WITH A MOOD FOR IT since they are nothing new except the 26 versions Quran question which I already replied to Muslim writers here, can check from my todays or yesterdays posts.

[dwa2day]

Hi Doug ,It appears you jump into conclusion in hurry since you had already judged some one (like me ) before you write ………………………….

Hi Taliblm
Please know it is not my intention to Judge or my right, I simply have presented the argument and offered you the opportunity to respond. I thank you for that.
And by correcting your miss quoted passage as you have it clears up the claim and stated contradiction. John 5:30 '' I can’t do anything by myself.''
When you find the time please do this on the other 109,999 contradictions so boldly claim to have in your possession and I am sure you will find your claim to dwindle to ZERO.
Regards
Doug

[dwa2day]

Hi Doug ,It appears you jump into conclusion in hurry since you had already judged some one (like me ) before you write ………………………….

Hi Taliblm
Please know it is not my intention to Judge or my right, I simply have presented the argument and offered you the opportunity to respond. I thank you for that.
And by correcting your miss quoted passage as you have it clears up the claim and stated contradiction. John 5:30 '' I can’t do anything by myself.''
When you find the time please do this on the other 109,999 contradictions so boldly claim to have in your possession and I am sure you will find your claim to dwindle to ZERO.
Regards
Doug

[Abz2000]

Your explanation is detailed and informative, however is miss the fact and based on the evidence presented the Quran has been changed, there are different versions in circulation today, historic leaders of the Islamic community have known this. A therefore does not support the Islamic claim the Quran is the unchanged words of Allah as claimed.

Would you prefer that i argue based on blind defensiveness, or out of the fear that others may doubt Islam? That's for them to decide after studying the facts. Since claims have been made, i would like to see the parchments of san'a myself and am dismayed at the fact that they have been hidden from the world, it is essential that people can make an objective study.
I want to pass on the truth to my children, not to follow the path of the nations before us who hid the truth they knew out of haughtiness to defend their previous position.
I am seriously not about to get into a useless argument, i want to know the facts.

[dwa2day]

Would you prefer that i argue based on blind defensiveness, or out of the fear that others may doubt Islam? That's for them to decide after studying the facts. Since claims have been made, i would like to see the parchments of san'a myself and am dismayed at the fact that they have been hidden from the world, it is essential that people can make an objective study.
I want to pass on the truth to my children, not to follow the path of the nations before us who hid the truth they knew out of haughtiness to defend their previous position.
I am seriously not about to get into a useless argument, i want to know the facts.

Hi Abz200
Wow, a man after my own heart. What goodwill has written opens up hours of studying to come to one’s own conclusion? What you say is what I have been taught, search the scriptures to find the truth and by this you (I) will find my own salvation, although the road may be painful and long.
In light of what you said, would you agree that there should be agreement in the approach or methodology of a comparative study? If so what would you suggest?
Regards
Doug

[Abz2000]

Hi Abz200
Wow, a man after my own heart. What goodwill has written opens up hours of studying to come to one’s own conclusion? What you say is what I have been taught, search the scriptures to find the truth and by this you (I) will find my own salvation, although the road may be painful and long.
In light of what you said, would you agree that there should be agreement in the approach or methodology of a comparative study? If so what would you suggest?
Regards
Doug

Every scholar and intellectual has a differing approah to study, some seek to confirm what they know to be true, others fear for "national security" :) and fear what people might think, some will,just seek to find the truth, others will be highly critical and suspicious, i believe we need to let them all study it and present their opinions and findings whilst seeking to be truthful and objective.
Interesting to note that the differences of opinion on mushadf (scripture) by Abdullah ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy ibn Ka'b are usually found as rebuttals to critics, now i have noticed that some of those critics had zero scholarly intention and complete belligerent intention with desire to mudsling by which they harm themselves, howeverr, they did source and collect the ahadith and historical observations supporting their claims and the rebutting scholars also critiqued the sources and clarified much - although i did notice a tendency with some to avoid unorthodox/politically incorrect thinking and avoid division on what is available. For me it was a wonderful study theatre :)

Allahu Akbar, i certainly believe that there should be a central khilaafah authority on the path of Prophethood who should have had the texts photographed immediately and made them available for study on the net.
The fact that the yemeni government first handed them over to a museum in a country known for corruption, then paid a german team to preserve and catalogue them, that many of them disappeared and ended up on the blackmarket, then funds ran out before they could be catalogued is highly suspect and actually criminal.

Reading the Quran itself tells me that there are parts missing, studying the seerah and biographies of the khulafa tells me that there is a human aspect to collection and preservation of the texts, and having spent hours debating bible students who told me that it i must beware of questioning anything despite being shown the obvious tells me that i don't want to be naive in my conclusions but that i want to be truthful and open to new knowledge, especially after all those debates i've seen on evolution - some that i've participated in myself - only to find out after further study and deep thought that there was more to the story than i had grown up believing.
It's easy to unite on the truth when we are all truthful, sincere, objective and passionate in coming to the bottom of a story and passing facts on to our children, it knocks a lot of people's faith in Allah when they grow up and find that santa isn't real, especially with the corrupt secularists actively trying to pervert and corrupt them, there are also others who began to doubt Allah's existence as they came face to face with the facts of evolution, especially given that they grew up being told that it was a lie - the reason being that their ancestors had come to the conclusion that the Quran rejected the idea (which is very far from the truth).
Like when my brother told me how kids are conceived and i was shocked, i asked him if he thoufht mom and dad really did that, he was like, yes. I asked him if he thought the prophets had done it and he was like, yes. I accused him of sin and slander lol. When i went straight to my mom and asked her how kids are born, she told me that they just appear, i asked why not before marriage, she told me that God makes them appear after marriage.
Well, now i know that i was too young for my brother's story and too old for my mom's story, and i know that Allah is wise when He explains things in a subtle manner and lets humans reach maturity before they figure out the facts :)

[goodwill]

Lol, No History can be PROVED since there is no eye witness now. Historians write the History by taking events from their own resources and conclude what the Event PROBABLY COULD BE. ( Talibilm's conclusion is better since he takes the resources from outside sources as well, not only islamic )

if you ask a Historian did a incident happened EXACTLY AT that particular date & time ?? No one could reply it since there is no eye witness who live now and even eye witness may make some mistakes of ASSUMPTION :phew if you ask a greatest historian his views and other Historian views (dates, proofs ) are not the same . Like in the battle of -------- ive forgot the incident just during or after Crusades the History from the most Civilsed nation in Europe cannot exactly say how the hero of the Battle died ? they give three Scenarios.

But All we can declare is from the Noble Quran which even foretold about the saving of the body of Pharoah which even its first source THE OLD TESTAMENT utterly Missed it when the Pharoh's body was discovered in 1896 in a miraculously preserved form proves that the Noble Quran is from the Same Creator of Moses who saved Moses(who foretold coming of Jesus & Muhammad pbut) and his people and who saved the Pharaoh's body from the depth of the ocean's Sea Bed as he was in forefront leading his army when all other's at his back disappeared like a needle in the Red sea. A greatest unthinkable miracle ONLY THE ALL WISE NOBLE QURAN OWNS and not even the OT, its first source ;D

Only this POINT of 'date & time ' of Your's will take me many many pages to explain and there still plenty in the history of Prophets , Incidents, moral, laws etc but i will make it some of them mainly on the Main point of One God .(heard apologetics take the Muslim critics view like me and are planning to re-correct their books in their future , hope you are not studying for it when you ask all THESE numerous Q;s)

LIKE Changes made in the NT in the event of Satan's dispute with Allah on Adam's Creation.


NOBLE QURAN 2:30 '' Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." .....We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.


Noble Quran ''And the jinn We created before from scorching fire.''

Iblees the servant & Jinn was created from fire but was the head of the angels as also seen from the below verses of Hebrew.


We can say these following verses RELATE THE SAME STORY in the above verse of Noble Quran though you might not accept it. This the replacement of words from its real places as the Noble Quran exposes.



1) “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”?[b]

Also, God never said of any angel,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son.”[c]

6 And again, when God brings his Firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[d]

7 Indeed, when speaking of angels, he says,

“. . . who makes his angels winds
and his servants fiery flames”;





The fault or replacement abovein the Hebrews 1:7 is '' My son'' which is ''My Vicegerent or Calipha '' in our book and ''worship him'' is supposed to be ''Prostrate to him '' (out of respect ) as in the Noble quran

'' God's FIRSTBORN '' is obvious a contradiction too in Hebrews when it contradicts itself in EXODUS below

Exodus 4:22 (KJV)


22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn .

That will Make Jesus 3nd born after David who is also called the son. So 'My frstborn' as in above is an interpolation.


So first cannot be Two so both are mistakes but it ought to MAXIMUM be Only the SON ( Close to God like Vicegerent or Caliph in Arabic) and the Son being used as a figure of Speech.


2) Genesis 1:27[Full Chapter]
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Note : This does not mean God's own Image ( Bible says no Image for God ) but it rather Implies to the REAL OWN IMAGE OF ADAM's YOUTH not in form of baby or Toddler which every man human has to go through in stages .
Other verses of bible like God walking to Sarah and eating Hot cakes & fried calf meat and doing that to her are ridiculous when Compared to the enlightener Noble Quran when The True Creator need not Eat and giggle and walk to Sarah but Sends his order of Spirit to Sarah through his servant Angel above from the skies from his throne, the arsh as seen . Lot,


HOW MEANING CAN CHANGE IN TRANSLATION IN BIBLE
To find the exact meaning in modern English of those ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek terms, phrases, and sentences is very challenging. Sometimes the original words have no exact counterpart in English, so several English words may be required to reproduce the precise meaning. And English is constantly changing, as some of our words take on new meanings like the 4 letter filthy word F are used to mean which in not filthy anymore . For example, the word "gay" means something quite different today than it meant fifty years ago.

like in this funny video 'I am happy & Gay ' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5lX96qH4bQ

Just fifty years can make such difference so how about 2000 years ??


JESUS ATTENDED THE SYNOGOGUE, SO WHOM DID HE WORSHIP ?
In the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5–7), Jesus continually affirmed the authority of the Torah and the Prophets (Matthew 5:17) even in the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 5:19-20). He regularly attended synagogue (Luke 4:16), and His teaching was respected by the other Jews of His day (Luke 4:15). He taught in the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (Luke 21:37), and if He were not a Jew, His going into that part of the Temple would simply not have been allowed (Acts 21:28-30 )

So If Jesus's teachings were respected by those contemporary orthodox Jews why it was NOT respected later and Now when the Jews called the followers of Christians as Polytheists ??



Noble Quran 19:88-92 says


''They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!''


"Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!''


'At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin''

''That they should invoke a son for (Allah) THE Most Gracious.''

''For it is not consonant with THE Majesty of (Allah) ''
'
'THE Most Gracious that He should beget a son''





Noble Quran 3:66 ''Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have NO knowledge ??? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not.''


"I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god, Who is like me? " (Isaiah 44:6-7. The bible)


So the rest in next inshallah.

Talibilm,
thank you for explaining where you got your material. I thought it looked like a copy-and-paste job. It would be preferable to discuss matters with someone in their own words.
To continue addressing your and candyapple’s points:
24. Do not call people liars or make ad hominem attacks at all. It is impolite. Christ Jesus taught that you should treat others as you would have others treat you. This is known as the Golden Rule. Therefore, in the absence of clear proof to the contrary, we each should assume the other is honest, even if each thinks the other is mistaken.
25. You should not blindly listen to any so-called expert. Do your own research. Besides, according to what you quoted, candyapple misunderstands Christian doctrine, thinking that God had sex to beget Jesus. Christians do not teach this. You should first try to understand Christian doctrine before you presume to criticize it.
26. You apparently allege that, according to the Bible, Jesus accused the Jews of changing the Scriptures. Please indicate the exact verse in the Bible where Jesus said that.
27. You keep saying to listen to Bart, but you have not answered my question. Do you also listen to Bart when he rejects the Quran?
28. You disbelieve me when I say, contrary to your “Muslim scholars who do not lie,” that “periklutos” was never in the original Greek of the NT. Please show one example of an ancient NT manuscript where “periklutos” is found as a name for the Holy Spirit.
29. You laugh, saying “So Everyone became Jesus , Yeah ”
but you are closer to the truth than you think. In the Bible, Christians are even called the members of Jesus Christ’s body.
30. You rightly stated that Peter denied knowing Jesus. Peter denied Him in Jerusalem, however—not in Italy.
31. You claimed that “Holy spirit here and in many places in John does not mean literally but in figure of speech.” If you were correct, Jesus would have referred to the Holy Spirit with the neuter pronoun “it” (Greek has three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter, and the word for “spirit,” pneuma, in Greek, is in the neuter gender). But Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit using a masculine pronoun, “He.”
32. You claimed that Muslims have fewer than 10 sects. Are Wahabbism, Daesh, and Boko Haram among them?
33. You invited me to “Bring those verses that Noble Quran said to abide by the NT and lets see what it really said about.” That might be worthwhile, but can you reply in your own words?
34. Thank you for explaining your view of historical evidence by saying, “Lol, No History can be PROVED since there is no eye witness now…and even eye witness may make some mistakes of ASSUMPTION ” You have thus admitted that Bart’s historical claims are not necessarily reliable.

[dwa2day]

Every scholar and intellectual has a differing approah to study, .............................. explains things in a subtle manner and lets humans reach maturity before they figure out the facts :)

Hi Abz2000
What a statement and I too believe that God holds our every thought and move in His hands. My life stems from a protected privileged western culture of South Africa. You may have been there on your travels between Venus and Mars. My parents were free willed and religion was about their responsibility not faith. South Africa has 11 official languages so you can imagine how that translates into religious groups. Thus a problem, freedom of choice, there are no consequence for ones actions, thus in a matter of a week one could jump in and out of several religious and no one would care or hold me accountable. Most people are not serious about their stand on religious matters as long as we not fighting. So discussions are short and generally avoid.
My views on the bible are strong, yet Islam is a force one cannot ignore, I trust God for my position and path travelled yet would like to understand Islam, both the difference and similarities but it is true what you say, we are guilty promoting our view at the expense of other without truly finding out their point of departure and thus miss out on making a more informed choice. I trust you could give me the correct perspective on this from a Muslims point of view.
In the same manner I feel I could offer you a tremendous insight into the Bible, but am hesitant as it seems you have walk a long road in you studying already and do not wish re travel a road already taken.
A question I am currently working through is the relationship between the Quran and Hadeeth. Could you assist in me in a better understanding of this?
Regards
Doug

[talibilm]

Talibilm,
thank you for explaining where you got your material. I thought it looked like a copy-and-paste job. It would be preferable to discuss matters with someone in their own words.
To continue addressing your and candyapple’s points:
24. Do not call people liars or make ad hominem attacks at all. It is impolite. Christ Jesus taught that you should treat others as you would have others treat you. This is known as the Golden Rule. Therefore, in the absence of clear proof to the contrary, we each should assume the other is honest, even if each thinks the other is mistaken.

Hi Goodwill,

Yep,Agreed here.

25. You should not blindly listen to any so-called expert. Do your own research. Besides, according to what you quoted, candyapple misunderstands Christian doctrine, thinking that God had sex to beget Jesus. Christians do not teach this. You should first try to understand Christian doctrine before you presume to criticize it.

Experts are important because One can't become expert in everything like I can't become my own doctor etc (If am not one , But Even the doctors discuss among themselves for better solutions) But I agree we have to use our brain too rather than believing ONLY the experts blindly because for every human God has given intellect to think and decide what is right & wrong unless he becomes BIASED & UNJUST. with his injustice he hurts none but him selves in the Long run.

Sorry to say that NOT every Christian THINKS THE SAME EVEN WITH THE BASIC ARTICLES OF FAITH and this not new but was also seen from records of oldest tafsir (extended minqabbas ibn abbas) among Christians a four fundamental groups were existing even during Prophets time itself seen through our records as on 610-620 AD only in Bahrain they were 1)Yaqubi group who claimed Esa is a God 2)Murhisia who claimed Esa was 3 in 1 3)melkunia two in one 4) the other being Begotten Son of God. BUT also a type of Christianity which was very close to Islam was also there like the one followed by Negus or the king of Abyssinia or Ethopia ( they fleed far when Nazareens were executed by Romans and Paul supporters), so that's why It seems our Prophet ordered the first 100 odd muslims to take asylum with Christian king of Abyssinia (Ethopia) which was much farer Though Najran in Yemen was nearer with the head quarters for Christians there, those days.


Candyapple has loads of info but some slip of words does happen with everyone of us :p

26. You apparently allege that, according to the Bible, Jesus accused the Jews of changing the Scriptures. Please indicate the exact verse in the Bible where Jesus said that.

I have yet to find THE exact verse but their actions with outside world and Noble Quran's proofs and the verses of NT like ''Jesus said:

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” IMPLIES that CLEARLY

Zaboor or Psalms of Prophet David was altered by the Jews. Many Prophets including John , the Baptist Yahya (as) was killed .This was the Reason for Jesus calling them frequently' Ye people of inequity( Injustice) 'with the jews on many issues since they did not follow their torah and verses condemning killing of Prophets as said in the Noble Quran Idolatory , adultery with NT etc are a proof since a part of them took Ezra as a son of God too.

27. You keep saying to listen to Bart, but you have not answered my question. Do you also listen to Bart when he rejects the Quran?

Bart actually is confirming the Noble Quran without his knowledge by repeating these words frequently '' If God revealed those verses he would have protected it '' But he fails to think all the scriptures before were sent Only For a particular Nation and untill a particular time or era and NOT FOREVER as in John https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...6&version=KJ21

28. You disbelieve me when I say, contrary to your “Muslim scholars who do not lie,” that “periklutos” was never in the original Greek of the NT. Please show one example of an ancient NT manuscript where “periklutos” is found as a name for the Holy Spirit.

I am weak in remembering those precise words but the fact is even today I found the Proof that Jewish translators had ALWAYS translated names which I saw from Isaiah ' Baca' (or Mecca) has been translated into 'Pilgrimage ' in CJB translations . That's not fair and it will mislead the lay readers.

29. You laugh, saying “So Everyone became Jesus , Yeah ”
but you are closer to the truth than you think. In the Bible, Christians are even called the members of Jesus Christ’s body.

Because ' Like me' you had given a general explanation that every Pious person does. When we look out for the special charecterstics of the Comforter what Jesus is explaining in his last moments of this world WHICH OUGHT TO BE VERY SPECIAL
Particular.

30. You rightly stated that Peter denied knowing Jesus. Peter denied Him in Jerusalem, however—not in Italy.

I was probably talking on the probability of the assembly of the 150 disciples in a months times after this great times of tension of Jesus's Crucifixion. Its like saying some terrorists or Laden's students openly assembled again in New york just in a month times after the twin tower tragedy , lol ;D IMPOSSIBLE. sorry I do not mean the Nazareens were terrorists but the Roman Rule & Jews had become their enemies.

31. You claimed that “Holy spirit here and in many places in John does not mean literally but in figure of speech.” If you were correct, Jesus would have referred to the Holy Spirit with the neuter pronoun “it” (Greek has three genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter, and the word for “spirit,” pneuma, in Greek, is in the neuter gender). But Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit using a masculine pronoun, “He.”

Jesus was a Jew and was sent to the Lost sheep of Israel and not to Polytheists Greeks with their Nude idols of Jupieter so I am sure Jesus mostly spoke Aramaic and in Hebrew but Bart Confirms Jesus lived among the aramaic peasants . So Jesus Never Spoke Greek . though you may say his disciple was a greek but kindy prove it. even if you prove it still i will say the disciple spoke in his master's language than vice versa.

32. You claimed that Muslims have fewer than 10 sects. Are Wahabbism, Daesh, and Boko Haram among them?

Some shias claiming Ali is God are not muslims and are from Ibn sabah - Paul like groups who were Hypocritic Jews who came to mislead the Monotheists .(Muslims , Nazareens) I am not supposed to say someone who claim to be a muslim (unless he contradicts 5 pillars of Islam like Bahais is a difference of opinions) to be a non muslim. Daesh is the worst and Prophet :saws: already predicted some youth will come to spoil Islam's name and it would also be right to kill them,Hope Turkey does that.

33. You invited me to “Bring those verses that Noble Quran said to abide by the NT and lets see what it really said about.” That might be worthwhile, but can you reply in your own words?

If those verses which you have or means to say that Muslims MUST follow the NT OR OT are not specified in this thread please list them and we will find out the truth.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...by-Apologetics

34. Thank you for explaining your view of historical evidence by saying, “Lol, No History can be PROVED since there is no eye witness now…and even eye witness may make some mistakes of ASSUMPTION ” You have thus admitted that Bart’s historical claims are not necessarily reliable.

No I didn't mean so since he uses very known Historical facts to the world from various sources outside christendom , like the Roman Kings never gave a decent burial to those criminals nailed on the cross and let them rot eaten by scavengers as a lesson to the bystander public etc but as per my reading of Bart's Minds from his several speeches he is still in very MUCH love with his Christian brethren that's why he gives so many proofs from their books against them and also from various world histories which is THE TRAIT OF AN UNBIASED Good class HISTORIAN but Never gives a direct VERDICT on them but says ' let the listeners decide themselves' since he does not want to HURT his loved ones. His loyalty and straightforwardness has won the confidence of the Shrewd archeological Dept of Israel who all ways invites Bart to decide in case they find any antiquities of Judeo christian origin and I believe as he claims he is agnostic , upset with God for not safeguarding his scriptures which is very obvious when he says something like its painful :exhausted to know the truth after a long service 30 years to his Christendom since he has high spirit to stick ONLY to the truth.

[goodwill]

Would like to add some info on 14, 15 and 22 by goodwill
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post2926005
it seems that some prefer to argue in bad faith than to come together upon the truth..indicates volumes as regards motive. Real believers in Allah who accepted the signs and messengers of Allah and did their best to obey Allah will be united in paradise.

Bear in mind that these are not answers, just info:

In point 14, you implied that since it is atated in the Quran:
وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ الإِنجِيلِ بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فِيهِ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ {47
005:047 Khan
:
Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fasiqun (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allah.


it might mean that Allah is saying that the books remain in pristine condition.
However the fact that they have been edited is clarified in Chapter 2 of the Quran, here:

فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَـذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ {79
002:079 Khan
:
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby.

You may already know of the biblical curses condemning the corrupt scribes and pharisees.

It appears that Allah, by telling them to judge by what Allah has reavealed therein will come to the truth anyway, this can be seen in the fact that once Allah sent the Prophet pbuh, He made him an automatic reference point just as they had previously with Jesus, though they had the book before them they would come to him for judgement, and even though some of them falsely claimed to disbelieve in what he had been sent with, they would still have to come to him ultimately (though some of them tried to get concessions via deception and false symmetrical hacks (ancient babylonian sorcey), this can be seen again in the following verse:


وَكَيْفَ يُحَكِّمُونَكَ وَعِندَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللّهِ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّوْنَ مِن بَعْدِ ذَلِكَ وَمَا أُوْلَـئِكَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ {43
005:043
:
But how do they come to you for decision while they have the Taurat (Torah), in which is the decision of Allah; yet even after that, they turn away. For they are not (really) believers.


Notice that a question is posed requiring them to probe their own minds.
For if they accept the guidance of those books they would come to the truth anyway, and if they believed in them sincerely, they would try to adhere to them completely, then they would end up upgrading to Islam anyway since they would see the truth and more fitting guidance.

For those who reject what they don't like of the previous scriptures, Allah asks them: is it that you believe in a part if the book and reject a part?
If it's all true and no additions have been made, you may ask yourself why nobody has implemented it since just before the advent of Muhammad pbuh despite there being no political constraint.

Allah sent the new law when people needed it.
The tribal experiment was over and people were beginning to mingle more.
He wasn't making their faith vain, but rather upgrading and completing it.

In point 15, you memtioned greek, although most of us know that Aramaic was the spoken language, greek appears to have only become a big factor after the dawah was spread to the region, the initial target audience were the jews, as can be seen from the crumbs under table statement.
Not that there's much to argue about.


Regarding point 22 on the issue of suckling, the five and ten feeds thing appears to be about babies who were within the age of suckling, that a one off or so feed doesn't make a person a foster child.



Regarding the suckling of salim the ex-adopted son and later slave, there is much confusion and Allah knows best, but the older and more mature mothers of the believers appear to have taken Aishah (ra)'s claim at face value but stated that it would have been a one off for salim, and that it was unacceptable for them.
I cannot find any reports that indicate that the Prophet pbuh had made that concession for anybody else.



Ibn Abu Mulaika reported that al-Qasim b. Muhammad b. Abu Bakr had narrated to him
that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Sahla bint Suhail b. 'Amr came to Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) and said:
Messenger of Allah, Salim (the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa) is living with us in our house, and he has attained (puberty) as men attain it and has acquired knowledge (of the sex problems) as men acquire, whereupon he said: Suckle him so that he may become unlawful (in regard to marriage) for you He (Ibn Abu Mulaika) said: I refrained from (narrating this hadith) for a year or so on account of fear. I then met al-Qasim and said to him: You narrated to me a hadith which I did not narrate (to anyone) afterwards. He said: What is that? I informed him, whereupon he said: Narrate it on my authority that 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) had narrated that to me.

وَحَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ رَافِعٍ، - وَاللَّفْظُ لاِبْنِ رَافِعٍ - قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ جُرَيْجٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ، أَنَّ الْقَاسِمَ بْنَ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي بَكْرٍ، أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّ عَائِشَةَ أَخْبَرَتْهُ أَنَّ سَهْلَةَ بِنْتَ سُهَيْلِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو جَاءَتِ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَتْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّ سَالِمًا - لِسَالِمٍ مَوْلَى أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ - مَعَنَا فِي بَيْتِنَا وَقَدْ بَلَغَ مَا يَبْلُغُ الرِّجَالُ وَعَلِمَ مَا يَعْلَمُ الرِّجَالُ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏ "‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ تَحْرُمِي عَلَيْهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَمَكَثْتُ سَنَةً أَوْ قَرِيبًا مِنْهَا لاَ أُحَدِّثُ بِهِ وَهِبْتُهُ ثُمَّ لَقِيتُ الْقَاسِمَ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ لَقَدْ حَدَّثْتَنِي حَدِيثًا مَا حَدَّثْتُهُ بَعْدُ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَمَا هُوَ فَأَخْبَرْتُهُ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَحَدِّثْهُ عَنِّي أَنَّ عَائِشَةَ أَخْبَرَتْنِيهِ ‏.‏
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1453 c
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 35
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3426
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Umm Salama said to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her):
A young boy who is at the threshold of puberty comes to you. I, however, do not like that he should come to me, whereupon 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) said: Don't you see in Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) a model for you? She also said: The wife of Abu Hudhaifa said: Messenger of Allah, Salim comes to me and now he is a (grown-up) person, and there is something that (rankles) in the mind of Abu Hudhaifa about him, whereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: Suckle him (so that he may become your foster-child), and thus he may be able to come to you (freely).

وَحَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ، عَنْ حُمَيْدِ بْنِ نَافِعٍ، عَنْ زَيْنَبَ بِنْتِ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ، قَالَتْ قَالَتْ أُمُّ سَلَمَةَ لِعَائِشَةَ إِنَّهُ يَدْخُلُ عَلَيْكِ الْغُلاَمُ الأَيْفَعُ الَّذِي مَا أُحِبُّ أَنْ يَدْخُلَ عَلَىَّ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَقَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ أَمَا لَكِ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أُسْوَةٌ قَالَتْ إِنَّ امْرَأَةَ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ قَالَتْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّ سَالِمًا يَدْخُلُ عَلَىَّ وَهُوَ رَجُلٌ وَفِي نَفْسِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ مِنْهُ شَىْءٌ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ حَتَّى يَدْخُلَ عَلَيْكِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1453 d
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 36
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3427
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Zainab daughter of Abu Salama reported:
I heard Umm Salama, the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon himy, saying to 'A'isha: By Allah, I do not like to be seen by a young boy who has passed the period of fosterage, whereupon she ('A'isha) said: Why is it so? Sahla daughter of Suhail came to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and said: Allah's Messenger, I swear by Allah that I see in the face of Abu Hudhaifa (the signs of disgust) on account of entering of Salim (in the house), whereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: Suckle him. She (Sahla bint Suhail) said: He has a heard. But he (again) said: Suckle him, and it would remove what is there (expression of disgust) on the face of Abu Hudhaifa. She said: (I did that) and, by Allah, I did not see (any sign of disgust) on the face of Abu Hudhaifa.

وَحَدَّثَنِي أَبُو الطَّاهِرِ، وَهَارُونُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ الأَيْلِيُّ، - وَاللَّفْظُ لِهَارُونَ - قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، أَخْبَرَنِي مَخْرَمَةُ بْنُ بُكَيْرٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ حُمَيْدَ بْنَ نَافِعٍ، يَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ زَيْنَبَ، بِنْتَ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ تَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ أُمَّ سَلَمَةَ، زَوْجَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم تَقُولُ لِعَائِشَةَ وَاللَّهِ مَا تَطِيبُ نَفْسِي أَنْ يَرَانِي الْغُلاَمُ قَدِ اسْتَغْنَى عَنِ الرَّضَاعَةِ ‏.‏ فَقَالَتْ لِمَ قَدْ جَاءَتْ سَهْلَةُ بِنْتُ سُهَيْلٍ إِلَى رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَقَالَتْ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهِ إِنِّي لأَرَى فِي وَجْهِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ مِنْ دُخُولِ سَالِمٍ ‏.‏ قَالَتْ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَتْ إِنَّهُ ذُو لِحْيَةٍ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ أَرْضِعِيهِ يَذْهَبْ مَا فِي وَجْهِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَقَالَتْ وَاللَّهِ مَا عَرَفْتُهُ فِي وَجْهِ أَبِي حُذَيْفَةَ ‏.‏
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1453 e
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 37
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3428
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Umm Salama, the wife of Allah's Apostle (ﷺ), used to say that all wives of Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) disclaimed the idea that one with this type of fosterage (having been suckled after the proper period) should come to them. and said to 'A'isha:
By Allah, we do not find this but a sort of concession given by Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) only for Salim, and no one was going to be allowed to enter (our houses) with this type of fosterage and we do not subscribe to this view.

حَدَّثَنِي عَبْدُ الْمَلِكِ بْنُ شُعَيْبِ بْنِ اللَّيْثِ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي، عَنْ جَدِّي، حَدَّثَنِي عُقَيْلُ بْنُ، خَالِدٍ عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، أَنَّهُ قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ زَمْعَةَ، أَنَّ أُمَّهُ، زَيْنَبَ بِنْتَ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ أَخْبَرَتْهُ أَنَّ أُمَّهَا أُمَّ سَلَمَةَ زَوْجَ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم كَانَتْ تَقُولُ أَبَى سَائِرُ أَزْوَاجِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنْ يُدْخِلْنَ عَلَيْهِنَّ أَحَدًا بِتِلْكَ الرَّضَاعَةِ وَقُلْنَ لِعَائِشَةَ وَاللَّهِ مَا نَرَى هَذَا إِلاَّ رُخْصَةً أَرْخَصَهَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم لِسَالِمٍ خَاصَّةً فَمَا هُوَ بِدَاخِلٍ عَلَيْنَا أَحَدٌ بِهَذِهِ الرَّضَاعَةِ وَلاَ رَائِينَا.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1454
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 38
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3429
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'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) visited me when a man was sitting near me, and he seemed to disapprove of that. And I saw signs of anger on his face and I said: Messenger of Allah, he is my brother by forsterage, whereupon he said: Consider who your brothers are because of fosterage since fosterage is through hunger (i. e. in infancy).


حَدَّثَنَا هَنَّادُ بْنُ السَّرِيِّ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الأَحْوَصِ، عَنْ أَشْعَثَ بْنِ أَبِي الشَّعْثَاءِ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ مَسْرُوقٍ، قَالَ قَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ دَخَلَ عَلَىَّ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَعِنْدِي رَجُلٌ قَاعِدٌ فَاشْتَدَّ ذَلِكَ عَلَيْهِ وَرَأَيْتُ الْغَضَبَ فِي وَجْهِهِ قَالَتْ فَقُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّهُ أَخِي مِنَ الرَّضَاعَةِ ‏.‏ قَالَتْ فَقَالَ ‏ "‏ انْظُرْنَ إِخْوَتَكُنَّ مِنَ الرَّضَاعَةِ فَإِنَّمَا الرَّضَاعَةُ مِنَ الْمَجَاعَةِ‏".
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1455 a
In-book reference : Book 17, Hadith 39
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 8, Hadith 3430
(deprecated numbering scheme)
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http://sunnah.com/muslim/17



The narration goes as;
عن عائشة قالت لقد نزلت آية الرجم ورضاعة الكبير عشرا ولقد كان في صحيفة تحت سريري فلما مات رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وتشاغلنا بموته دخل داجن فأكلها
Reported 'Aisha (RA): ‘the verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times was revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) expired and we were occupied by his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.’ (Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith 1944)
1- Authenticity of the narration:
Whenever we have a narration we ought to see whether it is authentic or not? The narration infact has some problems.
The particular chain given in Sunan Ibn Majah finds one of the narrators Muhammad bin Ishaq narrating it using the word عن ('an) which is rather an ambiguous way of narration and renders the narration weak when used by a narrator known for practicing Tadlis [practice of subtly missing a link] and Muhammad Ibn Ishaq is indeed such a narrator. Thus through particular chain of narration in Sunan Ibn Majah the narration is weak and unauthentic due the above mentioned defect though it has other issues as well as mentioned in the lines to follow. This is clarified by Shaykh Muhammad Taqi Usmani in Takmala Fath Al-Mulhim 1/69 pub. Darul Ahya Al-Turath Al-Arabi, Beirut.
In Musnad Ahmad the same narration is given through the same chain but with an explicit way of narration i.e. it does not have the defect like the narration in Ibn Majah’s collection. But the narration is exposed to more criticism because many other narrators have related from 'Aisha (RA) about the suckling/breastfeeding but no one has narrated the words found in this chain even though the narrators in those cases are more reliable and consistent than Muhammad bin Ishaq. And due to thefact of these words being narrated solely by him and in defiance to other much more reliable narrators, scholars have questioned its authenticity. Shaykh Shu’aib Arnaud has classified it as Da’if in his classification of Musnad Ahmad. See Musnad Ahmad 6/269 Hadith 26359.
2- The narration no way questions Qur’an infallibility:

1- One of the two allegedly lost verses as per this narration was about stoning i.e. punishment of married adulterers. But other narrations prove that a commandment was revealed about stoning but the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did not allow it to be written as a part of the Qur’an implying that it was not meant to be Qur’an integral part. Following narrations testify to this;
a-It is reported in a narration from Kathir bin Salt that: Zaid (b. Thabit) said: 'I heard the Messenger of Allah say, 'When a married man or woman commit adultery stone them both (to death)', (hearing this) Amr said,
فقال عمرو : لما نزلت أتيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقلت : أكتبها ؟ فكأنه كره ذلك

'When this was revealed I came to Prophet and asked if I could write it, he (the Prophet) disliked it.' (Mustadrik Al-Hakim, Hadith 8184. Hakim called it Sahih)
b- About this 'verse' Kathir bin Salt says that he, Zaid bin Thabit and Marwan bin Hakam were discussing as to why it is not written in the Quranic manuscript and Umar bin Khattab was present with them and listening to their discussion he said he knew it better then them and told them that he came to Messenger of Allah and said:
يا رسول الله أكتبني آية الرجم قال فأتيته فذكرته قال فذكر آية الرجم قال فقال يا رسول الله أكتبني آية الرجم قال لا استطيع ذاك
"'O Messenger of Allah, let the verse about stoning be written for me.' He (the Prophet) said, 'I can't do this.'" (Sunan Al-Kubra Baihiqi 8/211 & Sunan Al-Kubra Nasai Hadith 7148. Albani (in Sahiha 6/412) said Baihiqi pointed to its authenticity)
Had it meant to be a part of the Qur’an why would Holy Prophet (PBUH) dislike its being written and who could stop him from doing it?
2- The second allegedly lost verse was about suckling of an adult ten times buut in this case too we have other narrations which categorically say that the verse was abrogated. And interestingly those narrations come through 'Aisha (RA) only. In Sahih Muslim we read;

عَنْ عَائِشَةَ أَنَّهَا قَالَتْ كَانَ فِيمَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ عَشْرُ رَضَعَاتٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ يُحَرِّمْنَ ثُمَّ نُسِخْنَ بِخَمْسٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ فَتُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَهُنَّ فِيمَا يُقْرَأُ مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings ... (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 2634)

This narration explicitly says that verse about ten sucklings was abrogated, one could wonder how it could have been under her pillow after the completion of revelation.

Having known that neither of them was meant to be part of the Qur’an; even if we accept the narration in question we will have to say that perhaps 'Aisha (RA) had kept them with her as a historical record and nothing more.


Also the claim of stoning being a Quranic verse and not a statement of the Prophet pbuh is to be looked at:

Ibn Majah
Hadith no: 2553
Narrated / Authority Of: Ibn Abbas
that Umar bin Khattab said: "I fear that after a long time has passed, some will say: 'I do not find (the sentence of) stoning in the Book of Allah (saw),' and they will go astray by abandoning one of the obligations enjoined by Allah (SWT). Rather stoning is a must if a man is married (or previously married) and proof is established, or if pregnancy results or if he admits it. I have read it (in the Quran). "And if an old man and an old woman commit adultery, stone them both." The Messenger of Allah (saw) stoned (adulterers) and we stoned (them) after him.' " Sahih

It appears here that it is a previous sunnah revived by the Prophet pbuh which sheds light on why he wouldn't allow it to be written down:

Ibn Majah
Hadith no: 2558
Narrated / Authority Of: Bara bin Azib
"The Messenger of Allah (saw) passed by a Jew with a blackened face who had been flogged. He called them and said: 'Is this the punishment for the adulterer that you find in your Book?' They said: 'Yes.' Then he called one of their scholars and said: 'I adjure you by Allah (SWT) Who sent down the Tawrah (Torah) to Musa! Is this the punishment for the adulterer that you find in your Book?' He said: 'No; if you had not adjured me by Allah (SWT), I would not have told you. The punishment for the adulterer that we find in our Book is stoning, but many of our nobles were being stoned (because of the prevalence of adultery among them), so if we caught one of our nobles (committing adultery), we would let him go; but if we caught one of the weak among us, we would carry out the punishment on him. We said: "Come, let us agree upon something that we may impose on both noble and weak alike." So we agreed to blacken the face and whip them, instead of stoning.' The Prophet (saw) said: 'O Allah (SWT), I am the first of those who revive your command which they had killed off,' and he issued orders that (the man) be stoned." Sahih





There does appear to be much confusion with this stoning and suckling and goat eating thing and Allah knows best, it may possible have been built up on the confusion caused during the accusations..
..

My sickness was aggravated, and when I returned home, Allah's Apostle came to me, and after greeting he said, 'How is that (girl)?' I requested him to allow me to go to my parents. I wanted then to be sure of the news through them I Allah's Apostle allowed me, and I went to my parents and asked my mother, 'What are the people talking about?' She said, 'O my daughter! Don't worry much about this matter. By Allah, never is there a charming woman loved by her husband who has other wives, but the women would forge false news about her.' I said, 'Glorified be Allah! Are the people really taking of this matter?' That night I kept on weeping and could not sleep till morning. In the morning Allah's Apostle called Ali bin Abu Talib and Usama bin Zaid when he saw the Divine Inspiration delayed, to consul them about divorcing his wife (i.e. 'Aisha). Usama bin Zaid said what he knew of the good reputation of his wives and added, 'O Allah's Apostle! Keep you wife, for, by Allah, we know nothing about her but good.' 'Ali bin Abu Talib said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Allah has no imposed restrictions on you, and there are many women other than she, yet you may ask the woman-servant who will tell you the truth.' On that Allah's Apostle called Buraira and said, 'O Burair. Did you ever see anything which roused your suspicions about her?' Buraira said, 'No, by Allah Who has sent you with the Truth, I have never seen in her anything faulty except that she is a girl of immature age, who sometimes sleeps and leaves the dough for the goats to eat.' On that day Allah's Apostle ascended the pulpit and requested that somebody support him in punishing 'Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul. Allah's Apostle said, 'Who will support me to punish that person ('Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul) who has hurt me by slandering the reputation of my family? By Allah, I know nothing about my family but good, and they have accused a person about whom I know nothing except good, and he never entered my house except in my company.'

Sad bin Mu'adh got up and said, 'O Allah's Apostle! by Allah, I will relieve you from him. If that man is from the tribe of the Aus, then we will chop his head off, and if he is from our brothers, the Khazraj, then order us, and we will fulfill your order.' On that Sad bin 'Ubada, the chief of the Khazraj and before this incident, he had been a pious man, got up, motivated by his zeal for his tribe and said, 'By Allah, you have told a lie; you cannot kill him, and you will never be able to kill him.' On that Usaid bin Al-Hadir got up and said (to Sad bin 'Ubada), 'By Allah! you are a liar. By Allah, we will kill him; and you are a hypocrite, defending the hypocrites.' On this the two tribes of Aus and Khazraj got excited and were about to fight each other, while Allah's Apostle was standing on the pulpit. He got down and quietened them till they became silent and he kept quiet. On that day I kept on weeping so much so that neither did my tears stop, nor could I sleep......


http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh3/bh3_828.htm

Abz2000, I appreciate your candor. On surah 5:47, I agree that this verse implies that the books of the Christians are “pristine” or at least sufficiently so. Surah 2:79 does not necessarily contradict 5:47. If it does, then there is a contradiction in the Quran.

On your point about the Lord Jesus, it is true that the Lord Jesus condemned the scribes and Pharisees, but He never accused them of deliberately corrupting the Scriptures. Indeed, throughout the NT, Jesus takes the preservation of the Scriptures for granted. God is faithful, after all, and preserves knowledge.

Like 5:47, surah 5:43, which you also mentioned, confirms the preservation of the Torah. So then in these verses and others, the Quran confirms the Scriptures of both the Jews and the Christians.


On breastfeeding adults in Islam, you described Sunan ibn Majah 1944 as “weak,” but the Arabic-English edition that I quoted from rates the hadith as “hasan,” and so the hadith is considered by the experts to be probably reliable. I can provide my source, if you like. As mentioned before, it was recorded in Sunan ibn Majah 1944 that, according to Aishah, a sheep ate the verse about about breastfeeding. In addition, two ahadith in Sahih Muslim say that the verses on breastfeeding had been “in the Holy Qur'an.” You quoted from this source, The Book of Suckling at http://sunnah.com/muslim/17 , but in your post you did not include these two ahadith which are also there :


1. 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and Allah's Apostle (ﷺ) died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur'an (and recited by the Muslims).
Reference
: Sahih Muslim 1452 a
In-book reference
: Book 17, Hadith 30
USC-MSA web (English) reference
: Book 8, Hadith 3421
(deprecated numbering scheme)


and
2. 'Amra reported that she heard 'A'isha (Allah he pleased with her) discussing fosterage which (makes marriage) unlawful; and she ('A'isha) said:There was revealed in the Holy Qur'an ten clear sucklings, and then five clear (sucklings).
Reference
: Sahih Muslim 1452 b
In-book reference
: Book 17, Hadith 31
USC-MSA web (English) reference
: Book 8, Hadith 3422
(deprecated numbering scheme)


So, in summary, if today’s Quran lacks the verse on breastfeeding, and two reliable ahadith and one probably reliable hadith all agree that the verse on breastfeeding was originally in the Quran but was later lost, then the conclusion according to the Muslim sources themselves is that the Quran has not been perfectly preserved.

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