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anatolian
05-10-2016, 04:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bhabha
Like this one
format_quote Originally Posted by EgyptPrincess
Pictures of pigs are not allowed on the forum I don't think :o
LOL...And they removed the pig's picture...Another post has been killed...:skeleton:
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Bhabha
05-10-2016, 04:49 PM
Why was the picture of the pig removed ? They are still animals and horses are also haram to eat, but no one removes their pic :/
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s.ali123
05-10-2016, 04:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bhabha
Why was the picture of the pig removed ? They are still animals and horses are also haram to eat, but no one removes their pic :/
Hourses have difference of opinion ;D
You can try putting cats pic instead, and apply pink filter to pink to give piggy look :P
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Bhabha
05-10-2016, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by s.ali123
Hourses have difference of opinion ;D
You can try putting cats pic instead, and apply pink filter to pink to give piggy look :P
No I'm actually angered at this. :/

Where does it state we can give preference to one animal over another? If you see a thirsty pig, do you not give the pig water? If you see a hungry pig, do we not give the pig food?

Pork is haram to consume. But where does it state that pigs are themselves evil or haram to keep? If a pig needs a home or a shelter, do we not provide it?
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abumuslim82
05-10-2016, 05:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bhabha
Why was the picture of the pig removed ? They are still animals and horses are also haram to eat, but no one removes their pic :/
Sister I hope ur intention is sincere, and u not one of those people trying to make a mockery of Islam.

If u are, I would advise you to rather stop, becoz ALLAH wrath is severe.
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strivingobserver98
05-10-2016, 05:08 PM
السَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَةُ اللهِ وَبَرَكَاتُهُ

I agree with you, in the sense that I see no reason to remove it. Pigs are a creation of Allah. But at same time let's be open minded and take a look at the other side too.

We have recieved a report on the topic by @Insaanah , that's why to be safe the @Moderator has removed it.

Hopefully sis @Insaanah can clarify the reason.

جزاك اللهُ خيراً
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EgyptPrincess
05-10-2016, 05:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bhabha
No I'm actually angered at this. :/

Where does it state we can give preference to one animal over another? If you see a thirsty pig, do you not give the pig water? If you see a hungry pig, do we not give the pig food?

Pork is haram to consume. But where does it state that pigs are themselves evil or haram to keep? If a pig needs a home or a shelter, do we not provide it?
Some people are different when it comes to pork. Regardless piglets are pork and to even touch it can be controversial because you will contaminate other food sources. I banned my boyfriend from eating pork and if he even touches it he will regret it :raging: :D

So to have one in the house, a baby or not... absolutely not. Of course if one is in need of human help then do what you can then subhan allah this surely is a good deed. Give it a drink from a bowl which you then throw away or feed him some food whatever. But to keep one as a pet, it's just not advisable. They will snot all over your house.

the cutest of all animals. A baby cheetah called Toto, sadly he is no longer with us, a baboon ate him imsad
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Bhabha
05-10-2016, 05:17 PM
I would like to know from Insaanah why this was reported. I am not trying to make a mockery of Islam, but as far as I can tell the haram of a pig is the eating of it, due to reasons that it is dirty and we have been instructed not to eat it.

However, considering I am a vegetarian in the first place and do not eat animals at all, and I know the pig is haram to eat, where does it state in the Quran or in the Hadith that dealing with a pig in general is haram and thus prohibited.

Unless we are making bidah and thus stipulating that because a pig is haram to eat, it is also haram to deal with pigs in the first place. If someone can give me a verse that says anything like this, I would happily take that and say ok. It is haram to deal in totality with a pig. :)
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abumuslim82
05-10-2016, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bhabha
I would like to know from Insaanah why this was reported. I am not trying to make a mockery of Islam, but as far as I can tell the haram of a pig is the eating of it, due to reasons that it is dirty and we have been instructed not to eat it.

However, considering I am a vegetarian in the first place and do not eat animals at all, and I know the pig is haram to eat, where does it state in the Quran or in the Hadith that dealing with a pig in general is haram and thus prohibited.

Unless we are making bidah and thus stipulating that because a pig is haram to eat, it is also haram to deal with pigs in the first place. If someone can give me a verse that says anything like this, I would happily take that and say ok. It is haram to deal in totality with a pig. :)
We not allowed to keep a picture of a pig also, just drop it, please.

Keep on posting the same things over and over of haraam, so Muslims can be indoctrinated over time.

u a revert sister as u claim, so just drop it, u wanna go back to kufr ??????
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Bhabha
05-10-2016, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abumuslim82
We not allowed to keep a picture of a pig also, just drop it, please.

Keep on posting the same things over and over of haraam, so Muslims can be indoctrinated over time.

u a revert sister as u claim, so just drop it, u wanna go back to kufr ??????
Please state where this is. I don't take things as someone says unless it is cited in the Quran or the Hadith. Where does it state no picture of pigs should also state no pictures of anything else. So I fail to see why pictures of other living things are acceptable but pigs would not be.
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abumuslim82
05-10-2016, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bhabha
I would like to know from Insaanah why this was reported. I am not trying to make a mockery of Islam, but as far as I can tell the haram of a pig is the eating of it, due to reasons that it is dirty and we have been instructed not to eat it.

However, considering I am a vegetarian in the first place and do not eat animals at all, and I know the pig is haram to eat, where does it state in the Quran or in the Hadith that dealing with a pig in general is haram and thus prohibited.

Unless we are making bidah and thus stipulating that because a pig is haram to eat, it is also haram to deal with pigs in the first place. If someone can give me a verse that says anything like this, I would happily take that and say ok. It is haram to deal in totality with a pig. :)
Google the quraan and hadith regarding pigs, to get a reference, then go check it up in quraan and 6 authentic hadith books, u will find alot
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Bhabha
05-10-2016, 05:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abumuslim82
Google the quraan and hadith regarding pigs, to get a reference, then go check it up in quraan and 6 authentic hadith books, u will find alot
You seem to know where so please I welcome it. I on the other hand have only found in relationship to eating.

As stated I don't eat ANY KIND of animal in the first place.
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Sister101
05-10-2016, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abumuslim82
Hahahah u were the one so shocked about the internet and espionage, lol.

Mmmmmm I wonder have u exposed urself ??
Lol, what?

Akhi if you say that there shouldn't be a picture of a pig on the forum you should bring proof for that. I know that pigs are considered dirty and Allah turned people from Bani Israel into pigs as a punishment so I wouldn't use it, but I don't know if it's haram.
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M.I.A.
05-10-2016, 05:30 PM
Sooo...I guess nobody is building an ark any time soon.

Also how are horses haram to eat?

..I went to France once and they do horse kebab, it was not halal so I did not eat it.
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anatolian
05-10-2016, 05:32 PM
The pictures of pigs are not allowed here??? But the links of the pictures of pigs are allowed???? :hiding::hiding::hiding:
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strivingobserver98
05-10-2016, 05:56 PM
Keeping a pig and looking at a pig are 2 different things. This thread is about displaying a picture of the pig.

For keeping a pig please discuss in the other thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...at-pork-2.html

With regards to looking at a pig, I found a relevant fatwa.

:fatwa:

"Pigs and dogs are creations of Allah. They are animals. They take the same ruling as other animals except where Islam provided special rulings for them. There are rulings regarding the impurity of pigs and the saliva of dogs, and that it is prohibited to eat the flesh of these animals.

However, these rulings do not extend beyond that limit. It is not prohibited to look at these animals, to watch shows about them, or even to show kindness to them.

Indeed, the Prophet (peace be upon him) informed us that a prostitute was forgiven and granted Paradise because she showed mercy to a dog that was dying of thirst and filled her shoe with water and gave it to the dog to drink. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3467) and Sahîh Muslim (2245)]

Toy pigs and dogs take the same ruling as toys made in the shape of other animals. They are permissible.

The proof that toys in the image of people and animals are permissible comes in the hadîth where `Aishah said: “I used to play with dolls in front of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) with my friends …” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (6130) and Sahîh Muslim (2440)]

And Allah knows best."
http://en.islamtoday.net/quesshow-153-1901.htm
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Bhabha
05-10-2016, 06:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by farhan
Keeping a pig and looking at a pig are 2 different things. This thread is about displaying a picture of the pig.

For keeping a pig please discuss in the other thread.

With regards to looking at a pig, I found a relevant fatwa.

:fatwa:

"Pigs and dogs are creations of Allah. They are animals. They take the same ruling as other animals except where Islam provided special rulings for them. There are rulings regarding the impurity of pigs and the saliva of dogs, and that it is prohibited to eat the flesh of these animals.

However, these rulings do not extend beyond that limit. It is not prohibited to look at these animals, to watch shows about them, or even to show kindness to them.

Indeed, the Prophet (peace be upon him) informed us that a prostitute was forgiven and granted Paradise because she showed mercy to a dog that was dying of thirst and filled her shoe with water and gave it to the dog to drink. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3467) and Sahîh Muslim (2245)]

Toy pigs and dogs take the same ruling as toys made in the shape of other animals. They are permissible.

The proof that toys in the image of people and animals are permissible comes in the hadîth where `Aishah said: “I used to play with dolls in front of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) with my friends …” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (6130) and Sahîh Muslim (2440)]

And Allah knows best."
http://en.islamtoday.net/quesshow-153-1901.htm
Thank you farhan [emoji5]
Will keep discussion of pig keeping in other thread
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Saleem Khan
05-10-2016, 06:25 PM
Looking at pictures of animate things is an academically contested opinion among the scholars. Some say it is impermissible others say its fine. Both sides have legitimate proofs.

My personal opinion is that it is impermissible to draw and take pics. However looking at them is fine.

This is for all pictures of all animate things not just pigs.
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Sister101
05-10-2016, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abumuslim82
So if u don't know y u giving ur opinion on sumfin u DONT know ?
I didn't give my opinion akhi, I asked you for proof for your opinion. Farhan has already brought proof that looking at pigs is permissible. I don't use images so I still wouldn't use it, but you haven't brought proof that it's impermissible. If there is an opinion that says it's impermissible I would like to know so that I can learn Insha' Allah.
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piXie
05-10-2016, 07:47 PM
:sl:

Sorry but the other thread was closed and since the discussion is about pictures, I thought I'd reply here.

What is wrong with a dog?
Im not saying it's haram or halal but if I knew a member removed the words of Allah from their avatar because of an animal picture I had chosen, I would change my avatar immediately.
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Bhabha
05-10-2016, 08:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by piXie
:sl:

Sorry but the other thread was closed and since the discussion is about pictures, I thought I'd reply here.



Im not saying it's haram or halal but if I knew a member removed the words of Allah from their avatar because of an animal picture I had chosen, I would change my avatar immediately.
Why would I remove a dog, a creature that اللهُ created because someone else is offended by that? Do I need to modify my behaviour because of people's absurd (sorry but I find it silly) disposition towards hating these animals.

I have seen how some Muslims in Muslim countries treat dogs and it is horrible. They throw rocks at them and then say that the dog is dirty and against Islam..... The dog is not against Islam, it was created by اللهُ.
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s.ali123
05-10-2016, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by farhan
Keeping a pig and looking at a pig are 2 different things. This thread is about displaying a picture of the pig.

For keeping a pig please discuss in the other thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...at-pork-2.html

With regards to looking at a pig, I found a relevant fatwa.

:fatwa:


http://en.islamtoday.net/quesshow-153-1901.htm
About showing kindness to animals and animal rights etc. I read an event in the book "In the footsteps of the Prophet" by Dr. Tariq ramadan. I forgot the actual source he mentioned for it.
When the Prophet S.A.W. called the people to join to go take Makkah, after the treaty was broken. The Prophet was leading big masses of People towards Makkah. Even at that time the mercy of the Prophet was so great towars animals, that he saw some puppies in way, so he instructed a group of companions to make stand around those puppies so that they may not be hurt by the movement of the people.
This incident really hit me, as even at that critical moment of life, the Prophet S.A.W did not neglect taking care if small animals. :)
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s.ali123
05-10-2016, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bhabha
Why would I remove a dog, a creature that اللهُ created because someone else is offended by that? Do I need to modify my behaviour because of people's absurd (sorry but I find it silly) disposition towards hating these animals.

I have seen how some Muslims in Muslim countries treat dogs and it is horrible. They throw rocks at them and then say that the dog is dirty and against Islam..... The dog is not against Islam, it was created by اللهُ.
What some of (rather majority :P) the people do to animals in muslim countries is not Islamic at all. Surely the Prophet was sent as a blessing to all the creature and worlds. The Prophet himself dealt with the animals very gently.
But again what else can be expected from people, they treat even the humans in the same way ;D
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BilalKid
05-10-2016, 08:33 PM
2day on ib.. attack on pig, attack on dog

wat next?? ;D ;D
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piXie
05-10-2016, 08:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bhabha
Why would I remove a dog, a creature that اللهُ created because someone else is offended by that? Do I need to modify my behaviour because of people's absurd (sorry but I find it silly) disposition towards hating these animals.

I have seen how some Muslims in Muslim countries treat dogs and it is horrible. They throw rocks at them and then say that the dog is dirty and against Islam..... The dog is not against Islam, it was created by اللهُ.
This is not an issue of hating dogs or treating them badly and if some Muslims do that then they are sinful. The dog was created by Allah but it is an animal which has specific laws around it such as washing 7x , the Angel didn't enter the house of the prophet :saws: when there was a dog there. It doesn't mean that we hate dogs or treat them badly but at the same time a lot of Muslims wouldn't display a picture of a dog on their avatar or wall especially when the words of Allah are on the same page or wall, and sometimes even appearing under it. It is just a matter of respect towards the words of Allah and that we hold them in high regard. Similar to when we read the Quran we don't place it on the floor while reading or otherwise.
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anatolian
05-10-2016, 09:03 PM
It is also interesting that Quran mentions only a dog with a company of believers..It is in Surah Kahf..Some think this dog is the only animal which is going to Jannah...According to the tradition the dog's name is Al-Rakim..In Turkey it is famous as Kitmir :)

Quran 18:18 And you might think them awake while they were asleep and We turned them about to the right and to the left, while their dog (lay) outstretching its paws at the entrance; if you looked at them you would certainly turn back from them in flight, and you would certainly be filled with awe because of them.

Quran 18:22 "(Some) say: (They are) three, the fourth of them being their dog; and (others) say: Five, the sixth of them being their dog, making conjectures at what is unknown; and (others yet) say: Seven, and the eighth of them is their dog. Say: My Lord best knows their number, none knows them but a few; therefore contend not in the matter of them but with an outward contention, and do not question concerning them any of them."
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MuslimInshallah
05-10-2016, 09:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by najimuddin

Does this permissibility also apply to using pictures of dogs and pigs for aesthetic purposes?

(i.e. hanging them on the wall in your house, using them as avatars, etc.)
Assalaamu alaikum Najimuddin,

If you look above, Farhan found a fatwa on this topic. that I think answers your question: http://en.islamtoday.net/quesshow-153-1901.htm


JazakAllah khairan.


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abumuslim82
05-11-2016, 09:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sister101
I didn't give my opinion akhi, I asked you for proof for your opinion. Farhan has already brought proof that looking at pigs is permissible. I don't use images so I still wouldn't use it, but you haven't brought proof that it's impermissible. If there is an opinion that says it's impermissible I would like to know so that I can learn Insha' Allah.
K sorry for being abrupt, ill find authentic evidences and post inshaALLAH
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abumuslim82
05-11-2016, 09:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by BilalKid
2day on ib.. attack on pig, attack on dog

wat next?? ;D ;D
Salaam

U forgot attack on muslim ummah

ALLAHU AKBAR, dhikr game reminder
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Saleem Khan
05-15-2016, 07:58 PM
I asked many salafi scholars about the pics issue regarding it being against the word of god. No one knew what I was talking about. Even the strict ones
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Insaanah
05-15-2016, 08:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Saleem Khan
I asked many salafi scholars about the pics issue regarding it being against the word of god. No one knew what I was talking about. Even the strict ones
:salam:

Let us all step back and look at the bigger picture (excuse the pun) here.

There are some things that are halaal, some things that are haraam. There are some things, which may not outright be haraam, yet may not be desirable or appropriate for an Islamic forum.

Islamic forums are supposed to be like online Islamic centers where people come to learn about Islam. Islamic centers should have a spiritual feel to them, an Islamic feel. Generally such spiritual places do not put up pictures of things that are forbidden to consume or utilize in any form. You generally don't even find pictures of pigs in a church or synagogue.

Imagine you visit an Islamic center, not necessarily a Masjid, but a place where few Muslims gather to learn or discuss anything related to Islam. And there you find a pictures of all these animals hung on the wall. Would that give an Islamic feel to it? Or having some Ayah, or Hadeeth, or pictures of a Masjid?

We need to work towards forging an Islamic feel, atmosphere and spirit for Islamicboard forum. This would include not only avoiding pictures of forbidden things, but also avoiding unnecessary chat between opposite genders, avoiding unnecessary private contact between genders, maintaining hayaa (modesty/shyness) with respect to certain sensitive matters etc.

Please note, that not wanting pictures of such animals displayed, does not equate to an attack on animals or hate for them, nor to not treating a real one with kindness.

I hope that helps to clarify things.
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Saleem Khan
05-15-2016, 08:28 PM
Its fine. I like the part about opposite genders talking to one another freely. That was one of the reason my ustaad that was running sunni forum closed it down.

There is a difference of opinion in digital pics. If they fall in the category of tasweer.

Some ulema feel it is also impermissible others feel it is fine. Its best to remain cautious in such things and follow the view of impermissibility.
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anatolian
05-15-2016, 09:09 PM
Pig's meat is dirty to eat. Dog's saliva is dirt to touch. Pig or dog is not "bad". So there can be nothing wrong with pig's or dog's picture. If dog was such a bad animal Allah would not mention it with a group of believers in Quran.

I dont understand how much a big issue is that. I think we have much more deep issues today in Islam and muslim ummah...For example we are killing each other..Why we muslims are killing each other? I dont think it is because of pigs or dogs...
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AabiruSabeel
05-15-2016, 11:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Saleem Khan
I asked many salafi scholars about the pics issue regarding it being against the word of god. No one knew what I was talking about. Even the strict ones
:salam:

It seems like the question was not understood properly. This is not a question of pictures of living beings or animals in general, but a question of putting up a picture of dog or swine on a place where we have Islamic discussions, Qur'anic Aayaat and Ahadeeth.


To make it more clear to the respected Mufti sahab,
Is it permissible to hang a picture of dog beside a Qur'anic verse on a wall? Something like this:





I say it is very disrespectful to the words of Allah and must be taken down. And for anyone who wants to know, I am not Salafi, and I am not very strict either.
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Bhabha
05-16-2016, 12:00 AM
Considering that the Internet itself is a place where all kinds of discussions take place, and the Internet itself is a venue on which all forms of discussions happen and all sorts of pictures happen and all sorts of videos happen then the discussion of Islam in a technology that also diffuses porn and other perversions should be avoided. Since you are comparing pixels and things that have been transformed from binary code into visible formations.
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AabiruSabeel
05-16-2016, 12:04 AM
We are talking about this forum in particular, not the internet as a whole.

This forum is supposed to be like an online madrasa, a place where we learn and discuss about Islam.
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Bhabha
05-16-2016, 12:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam
We are talking about this forum in particular, not the internet as a whole.

This forum is supposed to be like an online madrasa, a place where we learn and discuss about Islam.
But it isn't. This forum is created on a code. Nothing is tangible on an online forum because the backend to make things visible are de facto codes, html, Css, Java, php and are codes that create online content.

This forum is not in isolation from the code that makes the Internet as a whole. A code that feeds off technology, originally made for military purposes.

You are assigning value and dispositions to a picture, created by pixels and rendered visible through code on an online venue because you don't want it to appear next to other pixelated codes?

People can choose to put whatever pictures they wish for it on the forum. Though considering people go to the bathrooms with their phones and perhaps surf the forum itself with their phones, would it not be less disrespectful to abstain from using the words of the Quran so freely in a forum that can be accessed anywhere.
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AabiruSabeel
05-16-2016, 12:22 AM
Your analogy is incorrect because a madrasa is also nothing but a building made with bricks. Bricks are used to build anything, a casino or a mosque. Are they same? Do you apply the same ruling to both?
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Bhabha
05-16-2016, 12:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam
Your analogy is incorrect because a madrasa is also nothing but a building made with bricks. Bricks are used to build anything, a casino or a mosque. Are they same? Do you apply the same ruling to both?
The building is tangible it has distinct and tangible borders that disable or enable entry into the madrassa. You cannot enter the prayer hall at the same time you enter the washroom. But who is to stop someone from entering the washroom AND simultaneously surfing the forum whilst they are in? You state that the picture of a pig or a dog cannot be in the forum because it exists in the same space as the words of the Quran. However, who is to stop someone from going to the rest room and using this forum? Is that not equally and perhaps more disturbing than a picture of an animal in someone's avatar? You don't like the picture, then don't post in that thread. Simple.
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BilalKid
05-16-2016, 12:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam
Qur'anic verse on a wall
forum = wall same?? ^o)

;D ;D
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ardianto
05-16-2016, 04:20 AM
Assalamualaikum.

A moderator removed picture of flower that I posted for a sister who was sick. But I could understand. For some people, posting picture picture of flower for a woman considered as inappropriate. So I didn't protest.

How about posting picture of pig?. If that picture posted in nature or pet forum, it's okay. But posting picture of pig in Islamic forum can be considered as inappropriate. So, we must understand if moderator decided to remove that picture.
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Muslim Woman
05-16-2016, 04:21 AM
if I knew a member removed the words of Allah from their avatar because of an animal picture I had chosen, I would change my avatar immediately.
:sl:

Same here. I was reading this thread and wondering how we waste our valuable time. May Allah forgive us. Why pic of an animal is so
Important to us that we are fighting over it ? Holy Ramadan is about to start in less than 1 month. Have we started preparation to welcome Ramadan ?

This thread is a proof that no , we are not ready yet.
InshaAllah , we can discuss about pig after Ramadan. Give me a reminder pl.

:threadclo:
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Muslim Woman
05-16-2016, 04:23 PM
:sl:

upon popular request,
the thread is open now . Pl. submit beneficial posts. Jazakallah khair.
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Saleem Khan
05-16-2016, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam
:salam:

It seems like the question was not understood properly. This is not a question of pictures of living beings or animals in general, but a question of putting up a picture of dog or swine on a place where we have Islamic discussions, Qur'anic Aayaat and Ahadeeth.


To make it more clear to the respected Mufti sahab,
Is it permissible to hang a picture of dog beside a Qur'anic verse on a wall? Something like this:





I say it is very disrespectful to the words of Allah and must be taken down. And for anyone who wants to know, I am not Salafi, and I am not very strict either.
It's true I did misunderstand the question.

Respect (Adab) and its ruling is according to the 'urf (custom) of the society one is from. For example, in my society it is extremely disrespectful to sit cross legged in front of one's teacher. In other societies it is fine.

Therefore that would be wrong in my society not in others. These rulings depend on the custom of the locality and its people. Therefore in one society something maybe makruh (reprehensible) and other society something maybe fine.

This is where the topic of muru'at comes into place. Where the scholars of hadith would not accept a hadith from a scholar that would do something that the people of his locality consider reprehensible (khilaful muru'ah).

For example in a locality it is not befitting if a scholar or pious person of deen to wear certain clothes or go to a certain place or keep a certain hairstyle even though it is permissible in sharia, it could remove him from being an authority in deen. The muhadditheen (scholars of hadith) would say "if he is not ashamed of the people then how will he be ashamed of Allah".

Therefore, the topic you are referring to is regarding respect (adab) and is completely based on (urf) custom. If in your locality it is considered disrespectful then it would be disrespectful for you to do such a thing.

For others not so. Like the ottomans and how they would never turn their backs to the qur'aan even when they would walk out of a room they would walk backwards or imam abu hanifa and how he would never stretch his feet out to his teachers hones out of respect. Such things are based on ones taqwa and culture.

Similarly in my culture it is also disrespectful to keep a picture of a pig next to the qur'aan. However as I mentioned before pictures of pigs and dogs are impermissible due to them being living things. Disrespect (which is proven by customs) would be a small issue compared to the clear ruling from the prophet (saw).

Hope this answered your question.
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AabiruSabeel
05-17-2016, 03:13 AM
:jz: for the detailed reply.

Since we have members from all types of background, I feel it would be better to take all members opinion on a poll to know what custom should prevail.

format_quote Originally Posted by Saleem Khan
Its best to remain cautious in such things and follow the view of impermissibility.
format_quote Originally Posted by Saleem Khan
...as I mentioned before pictures of pigs and dogs are impermissible due to them being living things. Disrespect (which is proven by customs) would be a small issue compared to the clear ruling from the prophet (saw).
I agree. :jz:
Reply

Bhabha
05-17-2016, 03:29 AM
Plants are also living things, they breath and grow and die.
Reply

strivingobserver98
05-18-2016, 05:46 PM
:jz: good points by Saleem khan.

The fact that this is becoming a discussion reminds me of one recent issue circulating today.

They circled a dinosaur... is their saliva impure aswell hehe :D.

This is on Whatsapp. People have too much time on their hands. Being OTT.

Reply

Insaanah
05-18-2016, 09:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
So there can be nothing wrong with pig's or dog's picture.
Depends on the context. E.g such a picture as a bookmark in the pages of your copy of the Qur'an would you say there's nothing wrong or inappropriate with that? Also, many consider photos of animals as not being allowed, not just drawings.

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
If dog was such a bad animal Allah would not mention it with a group of believers in Quran.
What was allowed in previous ummats doesn't mean it's allowed for us. Also, you used the word "bad". The picture removal is being wrongly interpreted wrongly as an attack on or hate for such animals. The Prophet :saws: has said the angels of mercy don't enter the house where a dog is kept: http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/59/36, it takes away ones reward http://www.sunnah.com/tirmidhi/18/32, its saliva is impure: https://islamqa.info/en/20939

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
I dont understand how much a big issue is that. I think we have much more deep issues today in Islam and muslim ummah
People here have certainly made it into a big issue.

format_quote Originally Posted by farhan
The fact that this is becoming a discussion
I hope this thread is not a microcosm of the ummah. If Muslims rally around a picture of a pig, and protest in large numbers and repeatedly at it's removal, then I am afraid we have our priorities mixed up.

Plants are also living things, they breath and grow and die.
This refers to animals that have souls breathed into them.

format_quote Originally Posted by farhan
This is on Whatsapp. People have too much time on their hands. Being OTT.
Let's not laugh at or ridicule issues that might concern others, even if they may seem small or insignificant to us. The fact that people are thinking about whether something is halaal or haraam or disrespectful to the word of Allah, or inappropriate is to be commended :ma:. It is by being careful about such things that may seem small to others, that we keep our guard and become careful and firm about other things too. May Allah bless whoever wrote that, and increase them in taqwa, and may it be a sadaqah jaariyah for them, ameen.
Reply

Bhabha
05-18-2016, 11:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
What was allowed in previous ummats doesn't mean it's allowed for us. Also, you used the word "bad". The picture removal is being wrongly interpreted wrongly as an attack on or hate for such animals. The Prophet :saws: has said the angels of mercy don't enter the house where a dog is kept: http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/59/36, it takes away ones reward http://www.sunnah.com/tirmidhi/18/32, its saliva is impure: https://islamqa.info/en/20939
@Insaanah

This is a problematic statement, considering that the Qur'an is itself perfect and as such would render what is permissible as inscribed in the Qur'an, equally to current times, otherwise... we are judging the timeless concept of the Quran. Are we then to stipulate that the things applied to the time of the Prophet Muhammad no longer apply to us? Moreover, the dogs saliva is impure in the context of a vessel used for eating.

“They ask you what is lawful to them as food. Say: Lawful unto you are all things good and pure and what you have taught your beasts and birds of prey which you have trained as hounds are trained. You teach them that which Allah taught you. Eat what they catch for you and mention Allah’s name over it. And fear Allah, for Allah is swift in taking account.” [Sûrah al-Mâ’idah: 4]

The hounds that are trained are dogs, in this verse we are told we are ABLE to eat the animals that this hound catches for us and to mention's Allah's name over it, it does not mention that we are to WASH the animal that has been caught by the dog, but it clearly stipulates that we are able to eat things caught by animals that we have trained.

If the dog's saliva was completely impure, the context of eating animals which have been caught by hounds would not be mentioned and would completely render the dog's saliva null. However, considering that an animal which has no rabies, is able to fetch on command and obey the orders of the owner, then their saliva is not impure in this context, since we would be required to wash the animal caught before eating it. But, it says "Eat what they catch for you and mention Allah's name over it" it does not stipulate, "clean what they have caught for you 7 times with water AND then eat it" but it says "Eat...."
Reply

AabiruSabeel
05-18-2016, 11:30 PM
“They ask you what is lawful to them as food. Say: Lawful unto you are all things good and pure and what you have taught your beasts and birds of prey which you have trained as hounds are trained. You teach them that which Allah taught you. Eat what they catch for you and mention Allah’s name over it. And fear Allah, for Allah is swift in taking account.” [Sûrah al-Mâ’idah: 4]

The hounds that are trained are dogs, in this verse we are told we are ABLE to eat the animals that this hound catches for us and to mention's Allah's name over it, it does not mention that we are to WASH the animal that has been caught by the dog, but it clearly stipulates that we are able to eat things caught by animals that we have trained.

If the dog's saliva was completely impure, the context of eating animals which have been caught by hounds would not be mentioned and would completely render the dog's saliva null. However, considering that an animal which has no rabies, is able to fetch on command and obey the orders of the owner, then their saliva is not impure in this context, since we would be required to wash the animal caught before eating it. But, it says "Eat what they catch for you and mention Allah's name over it" it does not stipulate, "clean what they have caught for you 7 times with water AND then eat it" but it says "Eat...."
It is not correct for a person to simply read a verse and use it to derive any Islamic ruling from it. Please read the tafsir on this verse before making an assumption that animals caught and bitten by dogs are halal.

Quoting from Tafsir ibn Kathir:

Using Jawarih to Hunt Game is Permissible

Allah said,
وَمَا عَلَّمْتُمْ مِّنَ الْجَوَارِحِ مُكَلِّبِينَ
(And those Jawarih (beasts and birds of prey) which you have trained as hounds...) That is, lawful for you are the animals slaughtered in Allah's Name, and the good things for sustenance. The game you catchwith the Jawarih are also lawful for you. This refers to trained dogs and falcons, as is the opinion of the majority of the Companions, their followers, and the Imams.

`Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said that,

وَمَا عَلَّمْتُمْ مِّنَ الْجَوَارِحِ مُكَلِّبِينَ
(And those Jawarih (beasts and birds of prey) which you have trained as hounds...) refers to trained hunting dogs, falcons and all types of birds and beasts that are trained to hunt, including dogs, wild cats, falcons, and so forth. Ibn Abi Hatim collected this and said, "Similar was reported from Khaythamah, Tawus, Mujahid, Makhul and Yahya bin Abi Kathir.''
Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn `Umar said, "You are permitted the animal that the trained birds, such as falcons, hunt for you if you catch it (before it eats from it). Otherwise, do not eat from it.'' I say, the majority of scholars say that hunting with trained birds is just like hunting with trained dogs, because bird's of prey catch the game with their claws, just like dogs. Therefore, there is no difference between the two.

Ibn Jarir recorded that `Adi bin Hatim said that he asked the Messenger of Allah about the game that the falcon hunts and the Messenger said,

«مَا أَمْسَكَ عَلَيْكَ فَكُل»
(Whatever it catches for you, eat from it.) These carnivores that are trained to catch game are called Jawarih in Arabic, a word that is derived from Jarh, meaning, what one earns. The Arabs would say, "So-and-so has Jaraha something good for his family,'' meaning, he has earned them something good. The Arabs would say, "So-and-so does not have a Jarih for him,'' meaning, a caretaker.

Allah also said,

وَيَعْلَمُ مَا جَرَحْتُم بِالنَّهَارِ
(And He knows what you have done during the day...) meaning, the good or evil you have earned or committed. Allah's statement, مُكَلِّبِينَ

(trained as hounds,) those Jawarih that have been trained to hunt as hounds with their claws or talons. Therefore, if the game is killed by the weight of its blow, not with its claws, then we are not allowed to eat from the game.

Allah said, تُعَلِّمُونَهُنَّ مِمَّا عَلَّمَكُمُ اللَّهُ

(training them in the manner as directed to you by Allah, ) as when the beast is sent, it goes after the game, and when it catches it, it keeps it until its owner arrives and does not catch it to eat it itself.
This is why Allah said here, فَكُلُواْ مِمَّآ أَمْسَكْنَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَاذْكُرُواْ اسْمَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ

(so eat of what they catch for you, but pronounce the Name of Allah over it,) When the beast is trained, and it catches the game for its owner who mentioned Allah's Name when he sent the beast after the game, then this game is allowed according to the consensus of scholars, even if it was killed.

There are Hadiths in the Sunnah that support this statement. The Two Sahihs recorded that `Adi bin Hatim said, "I said, `O Allah's Messenger! I send hunting dogs and mention Allah's Name.' He replied, «إِذَا أَرْسَلْتَ كَلْبَكَ الْمُعَلَّمَ وَذَكَرْتَ اسْمَ اللهِ فَكُلْ مَا أَمْسَكَ عَلَيْك»

(If, with mentioning Allah's Name, you let loose your tamed dog after a game and it catches it, you may eat what it catches.) I said, `Even if it kills the game' He replied, «وَإِنْ قَتَلْنَ، مَا لَمْ يَشْرَكْهَا كَلْبٌ لَيْسَ مِنْهَا، فَإِنَّكَ إِنَّمَا سَمَّيْتَ عَلى كَلْبِكَ وَلَمْ تُسَمِّ عَلى غَيْرِه»

(Even if it kills the game, unless another dog joins the hunt, for you mentioned Allah's Name when sending your dog, but not the other dog.) I said, `I also use the Mi`rad and catch game with it.' He replied, «إِذَا رَمَيْتَ بِالْمِعْرَاضِ فَخَزقَ فَكُلْهُ، وَإِنْ أَصَابَهُ بِعَرْضٍ فَإِنَّهُ وَقِيذٌ فَلَا تَأْكُلْه»

(If the game is hit by its sharp edge, eat it, but if it is hit by its broad side, do not eat it, for it has been beaten to death.)

In another narration, the Prophet said, «وَإِذَا أَرْسَلْتَ كَلْبَكَ فَاذْكُرِ اسْمَ اللهِ، فَإِنْ أَمْسَكَ عَلَيْكَ، فَأَدْرَكْتَهُ حَيًّا فَاذْبَحُهُ، وَإِنْ أَدْرَكْتَهُ قَدْ قَتَلَ وَلَمْ يَأْكُلْ مِنْهُ فَكُلْهُ، فَإِنَّ أَخْذَ الْكَلْبِ ذَكَاتُه»

(If you send your hunting dog, then mention Allah's Name and whatever it catches for you and you find alive, slaughter it. If you catch the game dead and the dog did not eat from it, then eat from it, for the dog has caused its slaughter to be fulfilled.)

In yet another narration of two Sahihs, the Prophet said, «فَإِنْ أَكَلَ فَلَا تَأْكُلْ، فَإِنِّي أَخَافُ أَنْ يَكُونَ أَمْسَكَ عَلى نَفْسِه»

(If the dog eats from the game, do not eat from it for I fear that it has caught it as prey for itself.)
Reply

AabiruSabeel
05-18-2016, 11:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bhabha
This is a problematic statement, considering that the Qur'an is itself perfect and as such would render what is permissible as inscribed in the Qur'an, equally to current times, otherwise... we are judging the timeless concept of the Quran. Are we then to stipulate that the things applied to the time of the Prophet Muhammad no longer apply to us? Moreover, the dogs saliva is impure in the context of a vessel used for eating.
Dog's saliva is impure, not only in the context of eating, but also in general terms. If it licks you, or your clothes, you cannot pray wearing the same clothes unless you wash them.
Same is the case for the saliva of all carnivorous animals.


The Qur'an is perfect and there are several lessons in the story of the people of the cave.

One of the lessons from the story is, that the dog did not enter the cave with the men, it lay outside at the entrance.

Another lesson is, if you accompany good people, you will be counted among them. That is exactly the reason why it is mentioned in the Qur'an along with the men.



Again quoting from Tafsir:

Allah :swt: says: وَكَلْبُهُمْ بَـسِطٌ ذِرَاعَيْهِ بِالوَصِيدِ

(and their dog stretching forth his two forelegs at the Wasid)
Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr and Qatadah said: "The Wasid means the threshold.'' Ibn `Abbas said: "By the door.'' It was said: "On the ground.'' The correct view is that it means on the threshold, i.e., at the door.

إِنَّهَا عَلَيْهِم مُّؤْصَدَةٌ
(Verily, it shall be closed upon them) 104:8

Their dog lay down at the door, as is the habit of dogs. Ibn Jurayj said, "He was guarding the door for them.'' It was his nature and habit to lie down at their door as if guarding them. He was sitting outside the door, because the angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog, as was reported in As-Sahih, nor do they enter a house in which there is an image, a person in a state of ritual impurity or a disbeliever, as was narrated in the Hasan Hadith.

The blessing they enjoyed extended to their dog, so the sleep that overtook them overtook him too. This is the benefit of accompanying good people, and so this dog attained fame and stature. It was said that he was the hunting dog of one of the people which is the more appropriate view, or that he was the dog of the king's cook, who shared their religious views, and brought his dog with him.
Reply

Bhabha
05-19-2016, 12:01 AM
So according you, there are no angels in my house as there are disbelievers and dogs kept by my parents and perhaps all of my prayers are not valid. Great job at dis encouraging new Muslims, might as well jump out of a balcony. ;)
Reply

AabiruSabeel
05-19-2016, 12:15 AM
Please don't jump to conclusions that way. Learn, read and attend gatherings of knowledge. It will benefit you in this world as well as the Hereafter.

I have not said anything on my own. I have only quoted from Quran and Hadeeth.
Regarding angels, it is mentioned (in other places not quoted above) that only the angels of mercy do not enter such places. Other angels are allowed.

And as for your prayers, sorry to discourage you, I should have mentioned the complete ruling.
The clothes and area must be considered clean unless you are sure that there is some impurity.
And when you are sure about it, If the amount of impurity on the clothes or body is larger than a coin, then it is important to wash it before praying.
Reply

strivingobserver98
05-19-2016, 12:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
I hope this thread is not a microcosm of the ummah. If Muslims rally around a picture of a pig, and protest in large numbers and repeatedly at it's removal, then I am afraid we have our priorities mixed up.
:jz: for sharing your thoughts :).

Yep I agree with you in your last quote where you mentioned "whoever wrote that". May Allah reward them for their intentions and whomsoever practises it according to that intention.

Lol I think it's the other way around. Meaning the mixed up priorities is making the pig issue avatar a problem in the first place. I agree we should be on safer side. Personally I would never have a dog or pig avatar. But when time is spent telling the others "Remove this because of..", that's the target point of where the mixed priorities lie. Disclaimer: By this post it doesn't mean you don't give them Naseeha.

A Daee in London, shared the whatsapp picture with "#Priorities" on Facebook. Meaning to prioritize on other bigger issues. That's where I stumbled across the picture.

Lets take example:
One group does Mawlid we call them: X
One group doesn't we call them: Y
Y goes up to X and says "This is wrong, stop it now!".
X goes here's my evidence "... ... ".
Y goes "No you must not DO that", here's my evidence "... ...". (The example should not be taken seriously, only to reply to your statement)
Then if Y says "If Muslims rally around celebrating mawlid, and protest in large numbers and repeatedly at it's refutation, then I am afraid we have our priorities mixed up."
Who is the one causing the uproar in first place, X or Y? What is the source of this protest? X or Y?

I end with this quote from Yasir Qadhi which may be somewhat relevant. No intention to offend anyone. Please read the below without the word "Salafi", I shared it to highlight the priorities part.
Mistaken priorities.

The Prophet Muḥammad ṣallallāhu 'alayhi wa sallam (peace and blessings of Allāh be upon him) said, “Focus on that which benefits you!” For some Salafīs, success is tantamount to refuting 'deviants'. They revel in writing lots of refutations against people, warning people from associating with 'deviants' and using aggressively harsh language to correct people.

The challenges facing the Ummah are no longer about the misinterpretation of Allah's Names and Attributes or the validity of celebrating the mawlid.[18] No doubt, some people, at some level, do need to discuss the reality of the mawlid, and the Attributes of Allah and other aspects of faith. But these are not the problems of our time, nor do they present major challenges to the faith of our young men and women. These are controversies of a bygone era: the Salafīs and the Ashʿarīs can go on debating such aspects amongst themselves, and I too as a theologian will be glad to participate in such debates, in appropriate forums, in front of appropriate audiences. But the vast majority of our youth couldn't care less about such abstract non-tangible theoretical discussions. They are struggling to retain faith in their religion, problematizing Darwinism and secularism and post-modernism and humanism and liberalism and a thousand other 'isms', while Salafīs (and Deobandis, and Ashʿarīs, and Sufīs) still debate in their circles matters that only concern the 0.1 %.

Islam is witnessing unprecedented ideological attacks from radical secularism; these attacks seek to render Islam in particular – and religiosity in general – anathema to modern society. New atheism and scientism are increasingly in vogue amongst public intellectuals. Modern culture reeks of materialism, hedonism, pornography, and sexual exploitation. Extreme ideologies, including radical-feminism, abound. Quite frankly, rare is it to find a Salafī scholar who is even qualified to discuss these issues, much less refute them; and when one does find such a scholar, it is not because of his Salafī training but in spite of such training that he is able to take on such challenges.

Age-old social ills that Islam came to eradicate continue to plague the 'Muslim world'. Societal problems are rampant, domestic and sexual abuse, violation of worker's rights, racism, bribery, and so forth are becoming increasing prevalent, yet, almost all of these issues are sidelined. It is inexcusable for jurists to passionately propagate their personal opinions on the prohibition of women driving, or incessantly criticize the celebration of the mawlid, for instance, all the while sidelining the widespread and endemic mistreatment of foreign laborers, sexual exploitation of female servants, the problems of bribery and wāsiṭa (having a 'friend' in an appropriate place to help you), and other well-known trends in their own societies.[19]
Source

I won't be making further replies to the thread, it's not beneficial to so much time on these things :).

May Allah :swt: keep us all steadfast in the Deen. Ameen.
Reply

Bhabha
05-19-2016, 12:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam
Please don't jump to conclusions that way. Learn, read and attend gatherings of knowledge. It will benefit you in this world as well as the Hereafter.

I have not said anything on my own. I have only quoted from Quran and Hadeeth.
Regarding angels, it is mentioned (in other places not quoted above) that only the angels of mercy do not enter such places. Other angels are allowed.

And as for your prayers, sorry to discourage you, I should have mentioned the complete ruling.
The clothes and area must be considered clean unless you are sure that there is some impurity.
And when you are sure about it, If the amount of impurity on the clothes or body is larger than a coin, then it is important to wash it before praying.
I know for a fact there is impurity ALL over my house. Dogs and cats go around the house and I have disbelievers as family members. Unfortunately, I will not move out of my house or rush into marrying someone for the sake of alleviating that "burden", which is what some reverts do and end up marrying someone that is wrong or end up suffering more than normal because of these kind of things.

Dog licks bowl, and has a wet mouth, walks around the house with wet mouth, parents walk around and touch the floor with the saliva that managed to slip away from the bowl being licked... it's like "germs", do I become frantic and concentrate on keeping myself "clean" 24/7, obsessive compulsive disorder and say to myself, what is the point of praying, if it's invalid? What is the point of being Muslim, if there are no angels, if all of my prayers are invalid? Should I be leaving the house and scream at my animals and my parents and be rude to my parents because there's a dog running around the house?

Islam is not meant to be difficult, but the more I speak with Muslims, the more it is painted as a difficult and highly intolerant religion that is preoccupied with the SMALLEST details, yet fails to look at the bigger picture.

I'm also done with this thread.
Reply

AabiruSabeel
05-19-2016, 12:42 AM
There are easy solutions to that. You can keep some clean clothes separately in a cupboard that you use only for prayers.

Allah forgives what is done unintentionally or unknowingly.
Reply

Bhabha
05-19-2016, 12:44 AM
Anyhow this thread needs to be closed. People focusing on the smallest little details is not helpful in achieving the larger picture.
Reply

Bhabha
05-19-2016, 12:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam
There are easy solutions to that. You can keep some clean clothes separately in a cupboard that you use only for prayers.

Allah forgives what is done unintentionally or unknowingly.
There's also no point, since there's no angels in this house :)
Reply

Moderator
05-19-2016, 12:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
upon popular request,
the thread is open now . Pl. submit beneficial posts. Jazakallah khair.
Mods agreed for it to be opened for 2 days. That time is now over.

Ramadan is coming up, let's get prepared.

:threadclo
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