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EgyptPrincess
05-26-2016, 09:52 PM
Before you say I'm saying kufr things, please read what I have to say.

I have an argument to suggest that Allah swt does not "will" every action. Firstly I want to say if I say anything wrong Allah swt forgive me.

First argument is the laws of physics. We were talking yesterday in a thread and the laws of physics cropped up and it got me thinking. Allah designed the laws of physics to "automate" certain actions so that he does not need to directly "will" certain things. Consider holding a ball and dropping it, the ball will NEVER just float there because the laws of gravity (which Allah designed) prevent that. So if I hold a ball and drop it, when it falls, has Allah directly "willed" for it to fall? I don't think so? He doesn't need to... he wrote a law to automate that process.

Consider Newton's laws of motion. If I push a marble on a flat surface, it WILL move. There is absolutely no doubt about it. This is because the laws Allah created allow it 100% of the time. He doesn't need to "approve" every action because the laws he made allow for it to happen 100% of the time.

Imagine you have 1 full cup of water that is hot and you pour it in another cup twice it's size that is filled half way with cold water. There is absolutely no chance that the water will become hotter than before. It will ALWAYS become cooler. Again the laws Allah created make this outcome "approved" 100% of the time.

So when we talk about Allah's will, is it fair to say that he "approves" or "wills" every single action? Would it not make more sense to suggest that Allah created laws that govern these actions and approves or disproves them depending on the physical situation? So it's all just automated.

My reason for this argument is that some things always happen 100% of the time. These things are governed by the physical laws that Allah swt created when he made the universe. The same can be said for rolling a dice. Consider a 6 sided dice, it's impossible to roll a 7 and therefore it will never happen. Also the laws of probability which again are laws that Allah created for us to discover, automate random events.

If you roll a dice 1million times, you should get 1,2,3,4,5 and 6 approximately 166,666 times each. Give or take. You may roll 5 a few times in a row etc but over a large number of rolls, it will balance out. This is also known as the law of large numbers.

So this opens the question, does Allah swt explicitly "command" or "will" every single action, even those actions which will happen 100% of the time? Why bother to create the laws of physics then if he is going to allow or disallow something which would otherwise happen 100% of the time anyway?

Of course things which are not governed by laws are explicitly willed by Allah. There is no law about survival or if you will fall over and hurt yourself of if you will get a promotion at work etc. For these events surely that is what Allah wills? If I die tomorrow that is Allah's will, but if I pour hot water into cold water, it will never be hotter than before. Allah does not need to will this event.

May Allah forgive me for not understanding his complexity.
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czgibson
05-26-2016, 10:01 PM
Greetings,

Being an atheist, I don't really have a horse in this race, so to speak, but it strikes me that if Allah did create the laws of physics, and then objects follow those laws, that still counts as Allah willing the objects to behave in a particular way. Don't you think?

Peace
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Alpha Dude
05-26-2016, 10:05 PM
You're going crazy over semantics. In the sense that, it's not technically wrong to say 'Allah willed it' for any of your examples because Allah was the ultimate originator of those rules/laws of physics.
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EgyptPrincess
05-26-2016, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,
if Allah did create the laws of physics, and then objects follow those laws, that still counts as Allah willing the objects to behave in a particular way.
Tell me one time Allah ever violated his own laws? Yes Allah "could" make the ball not fall but this has never happened so it's a 100% approval rate. So why bother to "approve" things directly which he already wrote a law for approving them 100% of the time anyway?


Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
You're going crazy over semantics. In the sense that, it's not technically wrong to say 'Allah willed it' for any of your examples because Allah was the ultimate originator of those rules/laws of physics.
I agree. So we can say that Allah indirectly wills every action via his laws. Pre-approving every such action before hand so to speak. So when you hold a ball and drop it, that action falls under his pre-defined laws of approval and so it happens without Allah swt needing to directly will for it to happen.

P.S I'm never crazy :p
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czgibson
05-26-2016, 10:21 PM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by EgyptPrincess
Tell me one time Allah ever violated his own laws? Yes Allah "could" make the ball not fall but this has never happened so it's a 100% approval rate. So why bother to "approve" things directly which he already wrote a law for approving them 100% of the time anyway?
Well, violating his own laws would be contravening his will, wouldn't it? So your argument appears to be: Allah doesn't will every action because he never opposes his own will. This is surely a non sequitur?

Peace
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EgyptPrincess
05-26-2016, 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Well, violating his own laws would be contravening his will, wouldn't it? So your argument appears to be: Allah doesn't will every action because he never opposes his own will. This is surely a non sequitur?

Peace
Exactly this is my point... Allah swt does not "will" every action uniquely because he created a law to automate the process. If the laws of physics did not exist then of course I would argue that every single action he wills uniquely because there isn't a universal law to automatically approve or disprove an action.
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Serinity
05-26-2016, 10:30 PM
Allah SWT willed everything. Including your actions. Nothing in creation does a move except Allah SWT willed and decreed it.
Not even the wind moves except by Allah SWT's will.
you can never outwill Allah SWT.

I used to go crazy over this in the past. Now I understand.

This does not contradict free will.
And Allah SWT knows best.
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Kiro
05-26-2016, 10:31 PM
Young lad,

Allah wills everything, willing things in a way for you to understand things and for the way works.

Allah is the creator. One of the attributes/names mentioned is the 'The Sustainer', one of the most powerful names of Allah (I say that because it is based on a hadith)

I do agree you're overthinking semantics, the creator indirectly gives permission for that particular system or mechanism to happen. However, indirectly or directly, God still has 'willed' for that object to be.

The ball dropping is an established system that has been put in place. God does not need too go against his own laws; violate as you describe because this is the established system that is brought forth, a mechanism is introduced of how things work. Those mechanism and systems (of this world or created for this world) happen due to the will of God; the creator. Sustaining everything at every second at every place.

All Allah has to say 'be' and it will be. That 'be' is still part of of Allah's will because that is how Allah setted everything up and happens through Allah's permission. The mechanism is accepted by Allah so Allah still in a sense 'wills' it for happen. But remember, Allah is a being unlike so you and I may have very limited understanding of how it works.

In Summary, Allah still wills tings whether it is indirectly or directly in a pre established system. Though directly could simply mean that Allah gives something in particular more attention.

Allah knows best, I apologize if I said anything wrong.

Everything is decreed by Allah. The pen writes all things and what may have been. Details even of a leaf falling for a tree and the speed of the leaf so on so forth. Destiny is a very complicated subject but we all have to work towards our destiny to achieve that destiny. A number of numerical outcomes that may have happen could be an example of indirect willing but if you made dua to change your destiny than this would perhaps be direct willing. What may have been could have been but ultimately, Allah decree's everything. This correlates with what I said above.
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Serinity
05-26-2016, 10:34 PM
Kiro can bear witness that I went crazy with this in the past.

My advice is to stay cool - ask - and think it through.

It is kufr to say Allah SWT does not will everything - the Laws of physics are all created by Allah SWT. Si yes, He SWT does will the Laws to take place.

Allah SWT is All-aware, so to assume He lets those laws go by themselves does not make sense - EVERYTHING is dependent on the will of Allah SWT. Even the Laws.

Everything is willed by Allah swt. Nothing is independent of Allah SWT's will. Bear in mind The Laws run according to how Allah SWT wills.
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EgyptPrincess
05-26-2016, 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by Kiro
Young lad,

Allah wills everything, willing things in a way for you to understand things and for the way works.

Allah is the creator. One of the attributes/names mentioned is the 'The Sustainer', one of the most powerful names of Allah (I say that because it is based on a hadith)

I do agree you're overthinking semantics, the creator indirectly gives permission for that particular system or mechanism to happen. However, indirectly or directly, God still has 'willed' for that object to be.

The ball dropping is an established system that has been put in place. God does not need too go against his own laws; violate as you describe because this is the established system that is brought forth, a mechanism is introduced of how things work. Those mechanism and systems (of this world or created for this world) happen due to the will of God; the creator. Sustaining everything at every second at every place.

All Allah has to say 'be' and it will be. That 'be' is still part of of Allah's will because that is how Allah setted everything up and happens through Allah's permission. The mechanism is accepted by Allah so Allah still in a sense 'wills' it for happen. But remember, Allah is a being unlike so you and I may have very limited understanding of how it works.

In Summary, Allah still wills tings whether it is indirectly or directly in a pre established system. Though directly could simply mean that Allah gives something in particular more attention.

Allah knows best, I apologize if I said anything wrong.

Everything is decreed by Allah. The pen writes all things and what may have been. Details even of a leaf falling for a tree and the speed of the leaf so on so forth. Destiny is a very complicated subject but we all have to work towards our destiny to achieve that destiny. A number of numerical outcomes that may have happen could be an example of indirect willing but if you made dua to change your destiny than this would perhaps be direct willing. This correlates with what I said above.
I understand. Thanks for explaining.

Also I'm not a lad... I'm a lass :)
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fschmidt
05-26-2016, 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
You're going crazy over semantics. In the sense that, it's not technically wrong to say 'Allah willed it' for any of your examples because Allah was the ultimate originator of those rules/laws of physics.
I disagree. I think this is much more than just semantics and is a critical question for the future of Islam. The real question here is whether God is consistent or God is arbitrary. The answer to the question determines whether one can speak of causality in a meaningful way. Can one say that X causes Y where X is not God? If God is consistent, then the answer is yes because then God can simply make a rule that X causes Y which makes God only the indirect cause of Y and makes X the direct cause. This question is fundamental to how a culture thinks.
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Serinity
05-26-2016, 10:50 PM
Kiro can bear witness that I went crazy with this in the past.

My advice is to stay cool - ask - and think it through.

It is kufr to say Allah SWT does not will everything - the Laws of physics are all created by Allah SWT. Si yes, He SWT does will the Laws to take place.

Allah SWT is All-aware, so to assume He lets those laws go by themselves does not make sense - EVERYTHING is dependent on the will of Allah SWT. Even the Laws.

So you are wrong, you pouring hot water into warm waters is what Allah SWT willed. And Allah SWT's will is a necessity for any e event to happen.

Your will, and everything is subject to Allah SWT's will.

Can I touch my nose if Allah SWT willed me not? No.

Everything is willed by Allah swt.
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Alpha Dude
05-26-2016, 10:51 PM
Can one say that X causes Y where X is not God? If God is consistent, then the answer is yes because then God can simply make a rule that X causes Y which makes God only the indirect cause of Y and makes X the direct cause
If God set up a rule that X causes Y, I don't believe that it necessarily implies that X is a direct causing agent. Y happening as a result of action X is just a mechanism that was ultimately still caused by God.
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Serinity
05-26-2016, 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
I disagree. I think this is much more than just semantics and is a critical question for the future of Islam. The real question here is whether God is consistent or God is arbitrary. The answer to the question determines whether one can speak of causality in a meaningful way. Can one say that X causes Y where X is not God? If God is consistent, then the answer is yes because then God can simply make a rule that X causes Y which makes God only the indirect cause of Y and makes X the direct cause. This question is fundamental to how a culture thinks.
In that case, yeah, God is the indirect cause. Cause logically, nothing can happen except Allah SWT willed it

Ultimately EVERYTHING is by the will of God, even the laws, the hand moving, etc. So actually God, in a way, is the direct cause, cause God willed x to do y.
May Allah SWT forgive me if I said any wrong. Ameen.
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EgyptPrincess
05-26-2016, 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by Serinity
In that case, yeah, God is the indirect cause. Cause logically, nothing can happen except Allah SWT willed it

Ultimately EVERYTHING is by the will of God, even the laws, the hand moving, etc. So actually God, in a way, is the direct cause, cause God willed x to do y.
May Allah SWT forgive me if I said any wrong. Ameen.
We are not talking about moving your hand or the act of pouring a cup of cold water into a cup of hot water, we're talking about the laws which govern the physical reaction.

I know it's hard for you to grasp certain things but try to read my following question and answer is in a meaningful way, if you do not know the answer then just say so. It's fine to not know something...

If heat is applied to an object, will the object get hotter? Yes or no? Simple question.

If I set a mousetrap that when a mouse steps on it, the trap springs down on the mouse. I have not willed the trap to spring down on the mouse, I have simply set the "rules" to allow the process to happen.

So when you apply heat to an object, it doesn't get hotter because Allah has directly willed it, it gets hotter because when Allah swt created the universe, he set these rules.
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fschmidt
05-27-2016, 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
If God set up a rule that X causes Y, I don't believe that it necessarily implies that X is a direct causing agent. Y happening as a result of action X is just a mechanism that was ultimately still caused by God.
So now we have arrived at a semantic question. What does "cause" mean?
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greenhill
05-27-2016, 01:08 AM
Maybe I give an example using a video game. Everything is already pre programmed within the game. You put in the input and the outcome will be affected by the series of inputs. How the game ends and where.

It is all almost willed already depending on input. If you choose not to engage, that is also 'part' of the entire process. So, the 'Will' of Allah are ALL those unimaginable combinations of engagement we can make leading to various outcomes.

On your examples, I guess where those happenings go against laws of nature (as we understand it) we would classify them as miracles, like the splitting of the Red Sea, or bringing a man back to life, etc.

:peace:
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najimuddin
05-27-2016, 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by EgyptPrincess

If heat is applied to an object, will the object get hotter? Yes or no? Simple question.
It does not have to. The fire did not burn Ibrahim :as:

If I set a mousetrap that when a mouse steps on it, the trap springs down on the mouse. I have not willed the trap to spring down on the mouse, I have simply set the "rules" to allow the process to happen.
The result of anything is up to Allah :swt1:. Poison had no effect on Khalid bin Walid :ra:.

So when you apply heat to an object, it doesn't get hotter because Allah has directly willed it, it gets hotter because when Allah swt created the universe, he set these rules.
These rules - by staying with the narrative - are all subject to His :swt1: approval - as we see with what happened to Ibrahim :as: and Khalid bin Walid :ra:. They are not static nor do they necessarily follow the so-called Laws of Physics.

Please read and reflect on the following hadith:

Narrated Jabir bin `Abdullah :ra::

When the Trench was dug, I saw the Prophet (:saws:) in the state of severe hunger. So I returned to my wife and said, "Have you got anything (to eat), for I have seen Allah's Messenger (:saws:) in a state of severe hunger." She brought out for me, a bag containing one Sa of barley, and we had a domestic she animal (i.e. a kid) which I slaughtered then, and my wife ground the barley and she finished at the time I finished my job (i.e. slaughtering the kid). Then I cut the meat into pieces and put it in an earthenware (cooking) pot, and returned to Allah's Messenger (:saws:). My wife said, "Do not disgrace me in front of Allah's Apostle and those who are with him." So I went to him and said to him secretly, "O Allah's Messenger (:saws:)! I have slaughtered a she-animal (i.e. kid) of ours, and we have ground a Sa of barley which was with us. So please come, you and another person along with you." The Prophet (:saws:) raised his voice and said, "O people of Trench ! Jabir has prepared a meal so let us go."

Allah's Messenger (:saws:) said to me, "Don't put down your earthenware meat pot (from the fireplace) or bake your dough till I come." So I came (to my house) and Allah's Messenger (:saws:) too, came, proceeding before the people. When I came to my wife, she said, "May Allah do so-and-so to you." I said, "I have told the Prophet (:saws:) of what you said." Then she brought out to him (i.e. the Prophet (:saws:) the dough, and he spat in it and invoked for Allah's Blessings in it. Then he proceeded towards our earthenware meat-pot and spat in it and invoked for Allah's Blessings in it. Then he said (to my wife). Call a lady-baker to bake along with you and keep on taking out scoops from your earthenware meat-pot, and do not put it down from its fireplace." They were one thousand (who took their meals), and by Allah they all ate, and when they left the food and went away, our earthenware pot was still bubbling (full of meat) as if it had not decreased, and our dough was still being baked as if nothing had been taken from it.

Source: Sahih Al-Bukhari
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Serinity
05-27-2016, 04:11 AM
You can not compare your will to Allah SWT! we are LIMITED in will, Allah SWT is not. Besides no rule takes place except by the will of Allah SWT.
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Cpt.America
05-27-2016, 04:54 AM
Originally Posted by EgyptPrincess
We are not talking about moving your hand or the act of pouring a cup of cold water into a cup of hot water, we're talking about the laws which govern the physical reaction.

I know it's hard for you to grasp certain things but try to read my following question and answer is in a meaningful way, if you do not know the answer then just say so. It's fine to not know something...

If heat is applied to an object, will the object get hotter? Yes or no? Simple question.

If I set a mousetrap that when a mouse steps on it, the trap springs down on the mouse. I have not willed the trap to spring down on the mouse, I have simply set the "rules" to allow the process to happen.

So when you apply heat to an object, it doesn't get hotter because Allah has directly willed it, it gets hotter because when Allah swt created the universe, he set these rules.

As others have so eloquently mentioned above me,
the fact that atoms and such are following their established laws, means that they are following the rules that Allah has commanded for them.
Now when we talk about automation and such it is a bit of a moot point.
Why is that?
Because Allah is aware of all things at all moments.
And everything follows His Will and never goes against it.
Allah doesn't have to stop, check, and approve every action, because no action is going against His Will to begin with.
And at the same time nothing is truly 'autonomous' because Allah is 100% aware of each and every action at all times, so nothing occurs without His knowledge or against His commands.

The only difference for humans and Jinn, as opposed to every other creation,
is that for us we were 'prescribed' laws. Laws that are our choice to follow or ignore.

No other creation can ignore their laws.

Allah allows us to make our own intentions, and given us the power/permission to control our surroundings to some extent. So this is how humans commit evil deeds (and also good deeds) we make the intention, Allah allows that intention to be followed through, and some degree of the nature around us is allowed to be affected correspondingly. So in real time it would appear as "because I did this, this happened" as opposed to "I wanted this, so Allah permitted the action to happen." But the latter scenario is the reality.
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Serinity
05-27-2016, 06:12 AM
Originally Posted by Cpt.America
As others have so eloquently mentioned above me,
the fact that atoms and such are following their established laws, means that they are following the rules that Allah has commanded for them.
Now when we talk about automation and such it is a bit of a moot point.
Why is that?
Because Allah is aware of all things at all moments.
And everything follows His Will and never goes against it.
Allah doesn't have to stop, check, and approve every action, because no action is going against His Will to begin with.
And at the same time nothing is truly 'autonomous' because Allah is 100% aware of each and every action at all times, so nothing occurs without His knowledge or against His commands.

The only difference for humans and Jinn, as opposed to every other creation,
is that for us we were 'prescribed' laws. Laws that are our choice to follow or ignore.

No other creation can ignore their laws.

Allah allows us to make our own intentions, and given us the power/permission to control our surroundings to some extent. So this is how humans commit evil deeds (and also good deeds) we make the intention, Allah allows that intention to be followed through, and some degree of the nature around us is allowed to be affected correspondingly. So in real time it would appear as "because I did this, this happened" as opposed to "I wanted this, so Allah permitted the action to happen." But the latter scenario is the reality.
Originally Posted by EgyptPrincess
We are not talking about moving your hand or the act of pouring a cup of cold water into a cup of hot water, we're talking about the laws which govern the physical reaction.

I know it's hard for you to grasp certain things but try to read my following question and answer is in a meaningful way, if you do not know the answer then just say so. It's fine to not know something...

If heat is applied to an object, will the object get hotter? Yes or no? Simple question.

If I set a mousetrap that when a mouse steps on it, the trap springs down on the mouse. I have not willed the trap to spring down on the mouse, I have simply set the "rules" to allow the process to happen.

So when you apply heat to an object, it doesn't get hotter because Allah has directly willed it, it gets hotter because when Allah swt created the universe, he set these rules.
Allah SWT is all-aware. So He SWT does not need to check, and everything runs according to His SWT will. So the fact that applying heat makes a thing hotter, is something Allah SWT decreed and willed, by creating those laws, willed by Allah SWT.

you have to remember - NOTHING can happen except by Allah SWT's will. So even the laws obey Allah SWT's will. It is not autonomous as it does not need to. It gets hotter because Allah SWT willed it to, by those laws. Allah SWT willed that if heat is applied it gets hotter.

He SWT could make it reverse, applying heat makes it colder.

Secondly, you can not compare your will to Allah SWT's will. You are not all-aware. Allah SWT is. what you can't, He SWT can. He SWT set the rules, and willed them to run as He SWT willed it to.

Allah SWT is all-aware - so He SWT does not need to make stuff autonomous - and nothing can happen if Allah SWT did not will it to - and Allah SWT is never unaware of even an atom.
So every law is willed by Allah SWT.

nothing can ever be truly autonomous, as everything is subject to Allah SWT's will. Every Law, all creation.
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eesa the kiwi
05-27-2016, 06:43 AM
speaking about qadr without knowledge is dangerous for iman. lest you deny something Allah has legislated or affirm something he has not
qadr should not be a topic for lay people to all sit round having coffee and discuss. i see even an atheist has put his two cents worth into the discussion
this warning goes to myself first and foremost

the scholars in the past were wary of this
we should be even more so
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najimuddin
05-27-2016, 07:02 AM
Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
speaking about qadr without knowledge is dangerous for iman. lest you deny something Allah has legislated or affirm something he has not
qadr should not be a topic for lay people to all sit round having coffee and discuss. i see even an atheist has put his two cents worth into the discussion
this warning goes to myself first and foremost

the scholars in the past were wary of this
we should be even more so
The OP herself has acknowledged the complexity of this issue.

In light of this, it is believed that her inquiries have been answered satisfactorily and in an understandable way.

Therefore, this thread is being closed to further discussion.

:threadclo
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