EU: Vote to leave or stay?

[BeTheChange]

:salam: brothers & sisters,

23rd of June is a big day for Britain in terms of politics.

Voters will get an option to either vote to remain in EU or to leave.

Will anyone be voting? If so what are your opinions or are you undecided?

How will the decision affect you?

I know many business owners want to remain otherwise they will be taxed quite heavily...

For me personally I have never voted and i don't intend to vote. Alhamdulilah.

[Aisha]

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

I'm still confused, need to make up my mind by the 23rd! Hopefully I'll decide by then. Although the thought of the Tories having full power without being held accountable to Europe is nauseating.
And Brexit is quite possibly the worst word I've ever heard. +o( Then again, Cameron is endorsing Remain so that can't be good either.

See what I mean, I'm confused! Lol.

[EgyptPrincess]

I will vote. As a citizen of the UK I believe I should do what I feel is best for me, my family and the Muslims living in the UK.

I am voting to remain in the EU. Our economy cannot afford to take a hit right now and remaining in the EU is the right choice. The UK is not the super giant nation we like to think we are and whether we like it or not, we need the EU and being part of the EU opens our doors to immigration which I absolutely believe in. Immigration brings in skilled workers and accessible, quality education to EU member states, many of which are Muslims.

['Abd-al Latif]

No poll? I thought this thread would have had a poll! It would be interesting to see who will vote for a yes or a no.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[BeTheChange]

No poll? I thought this thread would have had a poll! It would be interesting to see who will vote for a yes or a no.

Asalamualykum,

I am sorry. That's a good idea. Insha Allah this thread will be edited so a poll will be visible to all.

Please bear with me. Jazahka Allah.

[EgyptPrincess]

I know a lot of people say that voting is haram so they won't vote but I think the context of what you're voting for should be taken into account.

If there was ever a vote to ban the burka, ban the niqab, ban halal meat, ban mosques etc. Would you, as a Muslim, still not vote for the right?

We there is a vote which could directly affect the country you live in and likewise you and your family, should we not vote to ensure we do what we think is best?

[BeTheChange]

Poll added (My first poll thread).

Jazahka Allah for your patience & suggestion.

[Zafran]

salaam

I'll be voting to remain. The Brexit arguments haven't convinced me that the UK wont be able to renegotiate and reform the EU in the future - Leaving the EU makes zero sense.

[ukmuslimah]

Leave!!!! More control over immigrants.

[noraina]

I'm too young to vote yet by just a few months :p

But my parents have voted leave and I agree, there are a lot of arguments going back and forth of how this will give a blow to our economy and international standing, etc, but in the long-run I think it'll be for the best for the UK to get some more independence.

Although the word 'Brexit' is awful, they could have thought of a better name for their campaign. It reminds of a breakfast cereal.

[Scimitar]

I don't believe they care what we vote. Ever heard of ballot box scandals? You'll only hear about them if they get exposed... otherwise you will be led to believe that your vote makes a difference. It doesn't.

Scimi

[sister herb]

I don't believe they care what we vote. Ever heard of ballot box scandals? You'll only hear about them if they get exposed... otherwise you will be led to believe that your vote makes a difference. It doesn't.

Scimi

You need then the International Election Observations to make sure that election is fair and democratic - like in some totalitarian countries.

;D

[Scimitar]

to be honest, I don't care for it at all.

Join Euro or not to Join Euro - Allahs will prevails whether I vote or not.

Scimi

[EgyptPrincess]

to be honest, I don't care for it at all.

Join Euro or not to Join Euro - Allahs will prevails whether I vote or not.

Scimi

This simply isn't true though. Allah does not help those who do not help themselves.

If there is a vote to ban the burka and nobody votes against it, of course it will get banned... Again the same attitude I keep seeing around these boards is "nothing matters, Allah's will will make it happen or not happen anyway" In that case, why revise for your exam? Why bother to save money for a car? Why bother to do anything if no matter what happens Allah's will will prevail.

Have you and people like you ever wondered that perhaps Allah's will is for us to grow a backbone and actually try to change the world we live in for the better of mankind? Sure the EU deal isn't that important for the average Muslim but I strongly advise Muslims not to have the "leave it to Allah's will" mentality. It's extremely unhealthy

[Scimitar]

This simply isn't true though. Allah does not help those who do not help themselves.

If there is a vote to ban the burka and nobody votes against it, of course it will get banned... Again the same attitude I keep seeing around these boards is "nothing matters, Allah's will will make it happen or not happen anyway" In that case, why revise for your exam? Why bother to save money for a car? Why bother to do anything if no matter what happens Allah's will will prevail.

Have you and people like you ever wondered that perhaps Allah's will is for us to grow a backbone and actually try to change the world we live in for the better of mankind? Sure the EU deal isn't that important for the average Muslim but I strongly advise Muslims not to have the "leave it to Allah's will" mentality. It's extremely unhealthy

You can vote if you like, that's fine by me - but I do not look to beg the kuffar for my rights, thank you.

Sooner of later, it will become impossible for Muslims to live in the west - and you will all still be voting for your "rights" while I observe shariah recommendations to migrate to more suitable climes, spiritually speaking of course.


Scimi

[EgyptPrincess]

You can vote if you like, that's fine by me - but I do not look to beg the kuffar for my rights, thank you.

Sooner of later, it will become impossible for Muslims to live in the west - and you will all still be voting for your "rights" while I observe shariah recommendations to migrate to more suitable climes, spiritually speaking of course.

Scimi

It's not begging at all. You are a human being, you have the right to try and do what is best for you and your family based on the situation you're in. Yes the best situation for many would be the live under the Sharia in an Islamic nation but we don't have this legitimate option so we should make the best of the situation we're in.

[sister herb]

Sooner of later, it will become impossible for Muslims to live in the west - and you will all still be voting for your "rights" while I observe shariah recommendations to migrate to more suitable climes, spiritually speaking of course.


Scimi

During the history of Europe here have been several times when living in Europe has been extreme danger or almost impossible for the Jews for example. Massacres, deportions, forced to convert to Christianity, racism etc. but after centuries of persecutions in the Europe still live Jews. Why we Muslims should be weaker and more fearful than them and run away like sheeps when new laws (which we didn´t even bother to vote against) prohibit our religious lifestyle?

[anatolian]

If I were there I would vote to stay for worldly benefits but I dont know really how it would effect me or other muslims living in britain from an Islamic point of view.

However, Britain always tries to stay a step away from EU. By not joining the Euro and Schengen zones for example..

[EgyptPrincess]

During the history of Europe here have been several times when living in Europe has been extreme danger or almost impossible for the Jews for example. Massacres, deportions, forced to convert to Christianity, racism etc. but after centuries of persecutions in the Europe still live Jews. Why we Muslims should be weaker and more fearful than them and run away like sheeps when new laws (which we didn´t even bother to vote against) prohibit our religious lifestyle?

Unfortunately the world is full of people who complain about their situation but can't be bothered to do anything about it. Change was never brought about by people sitting on their backsides doing nothing. It's very easy for humans to sit and feel sorry for ourselves and so if there is something we don't agree with we owe it to ourselves to try and fix it, no matter what it might be.

Democracy will never allow for the ban of religion... BUT if it ever did, it would be because we laid down and did nothing to prevent it.

[Regrets1]

I was thinking of voting to leave because of less jobs, there are many degree holders with no jobs..but then I thought we are still surviving, we got shelter etc. If we leave EU UK won't allow immigrants and I don't think thats fair on people who's countries are being bombed they all deserve to live a better life in a safe place so for that reason I'm thinking of voting to remain in EU.

[Scimitar]

Naive...

Did "voting" help the most Muslim populated country in FEurope (France) when the French wanted to inpose their hijaab ban?

Did the Million man march stop Blaire from invading Iraq under the pretense of WMD's?

You guys live in a world of fairy tale imaginings - stop living in dream land and start smelling the coffee (muslim discovery btw)

Scimi

EDIT: when push comes to shove - trust me I aint gonna be planting my feet firmly - I'll already be gone,

Ahlan kaafilatee.

[Scimitar]

To be honest I couldn't expect to read any informed replies in this thread anyway - truth be told, you're all just wishful thinkers who actually trust your government - gah.

I'm too old and wise to know it's not the way of the world. You young ones have much to learn... I'll not share any more gems with you - Instead, i'll let you learn from your own mistakes, If Allah wills that you actually do learn, that is.

Gosh, the youth today :S scary stuff... every generation is worse than the last.

Scimi

EDIT:

From page one I read some of you are confused about which vote to cast - but "Must vote by the 23rd".... you are actually feeling pressured to vote?

While you remain unaware of the actual dynamics surrounding the reason to vote in the first place?

yet you will vote anyway?

Please, no offence intended, but please do grow some brains.

Scimi

[سيف الله]

Salaam

'If voting changed anything they'd abolish it' Ken Livingston. Plenty of others in the past have said variants of this quote.

Interesting documentary on the UKs relationship with the EU.

[AbdurRahman.]

I want Britain to leave as it's hypocritical to say 'enough is enough' about immigrants coming in from 3rd world, but then go and let millions of them in from Europe!

Also Eastern European pimps have flooded this country with prostitutes!

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Interesting comment piece on the whole EU debate. Seems the ruling class elites have got more than they bargained for unleashing this referndum.

The British people have risen at last - and we're about to unleash chaos


I think we are about to have the most serious constitutional crisis since the Abdication of King Edward VIII. I suppose we had better try to enjoy it.

If – as I think we will – we vote to leave the EU on June 23, a democratically elected Parliament, which wants to stay, will confront a force as great as itself – a national vote, equally democratic, which wants to quit. Are we about to find out what actually happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?

I am genuinely unsure how this will work out. I hope it will only destroy our two dead political parties, stiffened corpses that have long propped each other up with the aid of BBC endorsement and ill-gotten money.

I was wrong to think that the EU referendum would be so hopelessly rigged that the campaign for independence was doomed to lose. I overestimated the Prime Minister – a difficult thing for me to do since my opinion of him was so low. I did not think he could possibly have promised this vote with so little thought, preparation or skill.

I underestimated the BBC, which has, perhaps thanks to years of justified and correct criticism from people such as me, taken its duty of impartiality seriously.

Everything I hear now suggests that the votes for Leave are piling up, while the Remain cause is faltering and floundering. The betrayed supporters of both major parties now feel free to take revenge on their smug and arrogant leaders.

It has been a mystery to me that these voters stayed loyal to organisations that repeatedly spat on them from a great height. Labour doesn’t love the poor. It loves the London elite. The Tories don’t love the country. They love only money. The referendum, in which the parties are split and uncertain, has freed us all from silly tribal loyalties and allowed us to vote instead according to reason. We can all vote against the heedless, arrogant snobs who inflicted mass immigration on the poor (while making sure they lived far from its consequences themselves). And nobody can call us ‘racists’ for doing so. That’s not to say that the voters are ignoring the actual issue of EU membership as a whole. As I have known for decades, this country has gained nothing from belonging to the European Union, and lost a great deal.

If Zambia can be independent, why cannot we? If membership is so good for us, why has it been accompanied by savage industrial and commercial decline? If the Brussels system of sclerotic, centralised bureaucracy is so good, why doesn’t anyone else in the world adopt it?

As for the clueless drivel about independence campaigners being hostile to foreigners or narrow-minded, this is mere ignorant snobbery. I’ll take on any of them in a competition as to who has travelled most widely, in Europe and beyond it. Good heavens, I’ve even read Tolstoy and like listening to Beethoven. And I still want to leave the EU.

Do these people even know what they are saying when they call us ‘Little Englanders’?

England has never been more little than it is now, a subject province of someone else’s empire.

I have to say that this isn’t the way out I would have chosen, and that I hate referendums because I love our ancient Parliament. And, as I loathe anarchy and chaos, I fear the crisis that I think is coming.

I hope we produce people capable of handling it. I wouldn’t have started from here. But despite all this, it is still rather thrilling to see the British people stirring at last after a long, long sleep.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/

[M.I.A.]

I would vote to stay..

I think the working classes would be hit the hardest by leaving.

One way or another.. that's who would bear the brunt of increased taxation as prices increase.. or as import and export changes.

Ironically.

It's pretty much the only reason..

Not really wanting to be the Mexico of the European union.

[Regrets1]

Sooo disappointed!!! Pound has gone down..Scotland already wants to leave UK! Yep, get ready to pay the price UK!

[noraina]

I am so shocked by the result. I have no idea why but I thought this wasn't going to happen, lol.

Cameron is resigning and the way the sterling went down overnight was jaw-dropping.

They're saying we can only wait and see what the results will be of leaving the EU. I'm wondering if this will have a domino effect on other EU member states? I know in France there has been a movement calling for a referendum.

[Hamza :)]

Those who wanted to remain, you have my condolences

[muslimah_B]

Nearly the whole entire of england voted to leave and only london voted to stay, with Scotland also voting to stay.
If it wasnt bad enough with food prices already high and smaller quantity than ever before (its like everything has shrunk) now theyre going to rise again, i mean this is one example, I just had an email from this shop i recently purchased some hijabs from and they said they was not willing to increase their prices by 10%or15% like other places

Good luck everyone

Im moving to a cave, gonna plug into the mains so i have free running electricity and tap into the water mains, any1 is welcome to join me
*Runs away*

(Who knows what else is going to happen *eeek* )

[Regrets1]

Well well well.. "Brexit voters think they have made a horrible mistake" so here we go they are already regretting it!

[muslimah_B]

I just saw on the news that the government want to "reform" the human rights law/bill and to "tackle immigration"
Why dont they understand that there wouldn't be this much "refugees" & "immigrants" if they would have minded their business and not got involved overseas in such disastrous ways (and america aswell)
Plus a interview with some people who voted to leave, such remarks as
"i voted to stop immigration and stop muslims coming here"
"Stop foreigners coming here, send them home"
"Immigration"
Oh and then trump gets some airtime [emoji58] [emoji58]

Well this looks absolutely brilliant for us, scotland want to leave uk and have another referendum and even northern ireland aswell

Great

[sister herb]

Those people whose voted leave because of stopping the immigration, might not understand that leaving EU and immigration hasn´t anything to do together. Refugees come, just same if UK is part of EU or not. It also has very little influence for the immigration (other than refugees) itself, the illegal immigration surely increases when legal ways to immigrate will be more difficult to use. Seems they have believed too much the lies of some politicians. Plus leaving from EU certainly doesn´t stop Islam to spread.

[crimsontide06]

I'll just leave this here.... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...g-to-leave-it/



lol!!!!!

[Zafran]

Bad for the UK and bad for the EU.

[ukmuslimah]

Hip Hip Hurrah! Takbeer! Onwards and upwards for Great Britain!

Very pleased, celebratory halaal toast anyone?

[truthseeker63]

Voted to leave.

[noraina]

I supported the leave campaign - although my doubts did set in when it was hijacked by racists (I can't stand Farage or Boris Johnson aka mini Trump!).

But honestly, as sister Herb pointed out, these racists and their supporters were misinformed...leaving the EU will have no effect on immigration, because obviously the UK will still trade with it, it would be ridiculous if we didn't, and trading requires certain conditions which will allow the free movement from people between countries. So anyone who voted for the leave thinking it'll stop immigration was seriously wrong.

As for refugees, the EU will just absolve itself of any responsibility of watching over our borders, we're not their responsibility now.

I'm hoping our economy will be more independent and stronger without the EU, I for one wasn't too keen on the TTIP agreement the EU was heading for. But whether we pull out of this successfully really depends on the actions of the government now. But not much will happen any time soon, the UK can take 2 years to withdraw and they need to negotiate all their terms of withdrawal from the EU - at the moment the media is hyping it up a lot.

What will be interesting to see is what effect this will have on other EU members states, maybe a domino effect?

Enough political talk from me now ;) We are in the final 10 days of Ramadan alhamdulillah.

[sister herb]

Yes, this is mostly the economic matter and I wouldn´t be surprise if UK and EU would create some basic mutual agreements in the near future to secure the economic stability. As UK took part only in some aspects of the Schengen agreement and didn´t start to use the common currency (euro), it´s possible that the ordinary people don´t see much changes at all. Co-operating with political and security levels propably will continue like before. Propably this leaving isn´t as dramatic at all like media claims right now.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Certain sections of Britain have always had an ambiguous attitude towards Europe, still a surprise. Apprehensive for the future. Hopefully all sides can come to a sensible agreement on how to move forward.

More comment.

[Muezzin]

Hip Hip Hurrah! Takbeer! Onwards and upwards for Great Britain!

Very pleased, celebratory halaal toast anyone?

I don't actually agree with this post, but I like the concept of a celebratory halal toast. The thing is, I'm fasting, and have no bread, so toast is out of the question.

[ukmuslimah]

^not that sort of toast. Toast as in, when you toast to something. No bread required.

[Muezzin]

^not that sort of toast. Toast as in, when you toast to something. No bread required.

I know. It was a joke.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you BeTheChange;

All the powerful arguments were to stay in the EU, so it made absolutely no sense that the out campaign won. However, the worry is, that the out politicians are even more scary, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage.

As predicted, the evil that is known as the stock market acted true to form, and wiped billions off the UK market, they are just greedy asset stripers and gamblers, who rape our country's assets. Some will have made huge amounts of money from this temporary crash that they deliberately engineered. Big gamblers are altering the value of the pound, in order to make fortunes.

The lack of a solution to the UK's debt mountain that has been spiralling exponentially out of control, since the banking scandal, will probably now be blamed on Brexit.

I voted out partly as a protest vote, I have no confidence in our politicians and their spin. I detest the bureaucracy of the EU, and the thought of living with around a hundred thousand laws and statutes. When we joined the EU, it was to protect our industry, coal, cars, steel, all these have gradually disappeared.

I truthfully did not expect a win for the out vote. David Cameron was quick to step down, did he see this as a vote of no confidence?

My mum and her parents were refugees from Smyrna, when it was burnt down in the 1920's, about a million fled and half a million were killed. I believe we should take in refugees.

Now the challenge is to rebuild our relationships with the EU, Scotland, Ireland and the rest of the world. Despite all the shock waves, we have to search and pray for good solutions.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

[M.I.A.]

Lol I didn't vote in the end..

Was at work all day :/

Some people I work with are worried about family in Europe..

Although I think it's probably just as easy as setting roots before asking them across..

Same story different day.

[greenhill]

It is all a game. The super rich will get mega richer, funded by the losses of the masses.

Make no alliances with. . . It has not your best interest...

I'm not sure of the function of the union anyway, except for protectionism. We should be free to trade and pay our dues in search of honest living.

...just ranting....


:peace:

[darullemon]

Brits... How are you all doing? Are news reports exaggerated or is it really that bad? Racists out in open abusing women and kids, beating up people.

[muslimah_B]

Brits... How are you all doing? Are news reports exaggerated or is it really that bad? Racists out in open abusing women and kids, beating up people.

Racists and idiots are always out over here tbh cant get away from them, i havent seen or experienced anymore than i usually do though so it could be in different areas where more of those wack jobs actually live, but i do hope in sha Allah they are just exaggerated and no-one has actually been hurt

[noraina]

Brits... How are you all doing? Are news reports exaggerated or is it really that bad? Racists out in open abusing women and kids, beating up people.

Is that what American news reports are saying :o? I haven't heard anything like that around my area ....this is definitely a monumental decision but the media has really hyped it up. Some of them were making out the sun won't rise the day we decide to leave the EU.

Racists will always be crawling around, but nothing out of the ordinary is going on.

So alhamdulillah all is good :).

[kritikvernunft]

Well, I always try to be long on anti-fragile assets, such as gold and especially bitcoin. So, if the pound or the dollar goes down, you can expect my assets to gain value. Since a brexit was supposed to sink the pound, it was always supposed to make me money. You can imagine that I always favour my own pocket and my own long positions. Since the brexit has now been factored in into my capital gains, what do you think will be the next fiat banking calamity? I was hoping for a complete collapse and implosion of the Russian ruble. Do you think that this would be realistic? It would certainly make me money, of course. I was also hoping for Greece defaulting again on its loans. I made really good money the last time that they did. In fact, do you know of anything else that is about to crash and burn? I may start shorting that thing more specifically and more directly, rather than just passively letting the gold and the bitcoin accumulate the indirect profits.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

More comment. Particularly on why the no vote won.

Why We Need a General Election by mid-September

Out of the froth and fog of the last few days, something is beginning to emerge. I’m not surprised at all by the unlovely shape of it. You may not like the look of it. But first I thought I’d make a brief tour of some of the more interesting (and perhaps unexpected) commentary in this morning’s newspapers.

Let us start with this fascinating and (in my experience) wholly accurate article about the state of modern England – betting shops, payday loans, mobility scooters and all - from The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-eu-referendum, a good piece of left-wing journalism in the tradition of Orwell’s ‘Road to Wigan Pier' and Priestley’s ‘English Journey’. The closeness of this devastation and demoralised despair to London itself will surprise many, who think it is confined to the West Midlands and the North. I fear it will surprise a lot more who have no idea that it exists anywhere. I think the destruction it records can be blamed on many other things as well as the thatcher era. But BBC Remain types need to read this, by one of their own(though perhaps he’s one of Jeremy Corbyn’s, I don’t know) .

They may then begin to grasp what happened last week, and even start to sympathise with it.

Next, from the same paper, is this typically perceptive analysis by Larry Elliott:

https://www.theguardian.com/business...-globalisation

He correctly notes that Britain’s self-image as an economic success story is batty self-delusion, saying:’ To be sure, not all Britain’s problems are the result of its EU membership. It is not the European commission’s fault that productivity is so weak or that the trains don’t run on time. The deep-seated failings that were there when Britain voted in the referendum last Thursday were still there when the country woke up to the result on Friday. Evidence of just how unbalanced the economy is will be provided when the latest figures for Britain’s current account are released later this week. These show whether the country’s trade and investment income are in the black or the red. At the last count, in the final three months of 2015, the UK was running a record peacetime deficit of 7% of GDP.’

Then he points out that the EU (the same is true of the post NAFTA USA) has failed to protect its working population from the ferocious downward pressures of globalisation: ‘In the shiny new world created when former communist countries were integrated into the global model, Europe was supposed to be big and powerful enough to protect its citizens against the worst excesses of the market. Nation states had previously been the guarantor of full employment and welfare. The controls they imposed on the free movement of capital and people ensured that trade unions could bargain for higher pay without the threat of work being off-shored, or cheaper labour being brought into the country.’

He adds : ‘Europe has failed to fulfil the historic role allocated to it. Jobs, living standards and welfare states were all better protected in the heyday of nation states in the 1950s and 1960s than they have been in the age of globalisation. Unemployment across the eurozone is more than 10%. Italy’s economy is barely any bigger now than it was when the euro was created. Greece’s economy has shrunk by almost a third. Austerity has eroded welfare provision. Labour market protections have been stripped away.’

He is very good on the implications of this for left-wing parties which have blithely backed open-doors immigration policies.

Many people, once they understand what free trade really means, are beginning to wonder whether protection is really quite such a bad idea as the modish economists keep telling them.

Finally there is this from the distinguished and original-minded Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in the ‘Daily Telegraph’

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...erests-of-the/

The shape of a compromise, miles from what many in the ‘Leave’ campaign want, but acceptable to the current Parliament, is here very accurately and credibly set out. Something of this kind may very well happen. Just as we are not now fully in the EU, but pretend we are, we could end with a position where we are not fully out of it, but pretend we are.

This is why anyone who seriously wants a thorough break with the EU that will restore our control of our borders needs to realise that a referendum was never going to be enough to achieve this.

Something – perhaps yet another petition – needs to be done to encourage and record public support (if there is any now people are beginning to realise what's at stake) for a swift general election, held to cement and confirm the decision of the referendum. In my view, the referendum cannot possibly take full effect( and will have been waste of time) unless the composition and the balance of forces is irrevocably altered now in the Commons.

If an election is held soon enough (certainly before October) then all candidates can reasonably be asked to state without equivocation whether they support or oppose the verdict of the referendum, and how they will vote on the matter if elected. This must then be more important than their party allegiances. It will compel local alliances which could make almost all ‘safe’ seats unsafe. And it would also compel the elected members in such a Parliament to seek new allegiances, refusing the old Labour or Tory whips. It could be the first step towards the complete realignment our political system so badly needs. If it does not happen, then some sort of Norwegian arrangement under which we remain in the Single Market and lack full control of our borders, will be what we will get. It will resolve almost none of the problems described above. Good luck with that.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/

[darullemon]

This is more on Social Media than on Amrikan Media. There are pictures of Polish Father and son being beaten up and bloodied. Muslim women being cornered and threatened. People standing infront of Masajids and yelling obscenities

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Relax brother, there's no need for such language. The European Union has its strengths but it has flaws, serious ones. Its no panacea.

[Scimitar]

what language?

I call a cat a cat and a dog a dog... and morons have posted they have no idea why they will vote but vote they must... to the detriment of this nation I call home.

They voted leave too - the irony is that they slap the face of their own ethnic histories when they do this - yet at the time of casting the vote they had no idea what they were actually voting for.

SP please, spare me your dribble. lol

Scimi

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you kritikvernunft;

Since a brexit was supposed to sink the pound, it was always supposed to make me money.

I Think it is terribly wrong for any country to expose its currency to asset stripers.

Since the brexit has now been factored in into my capital gains, what do you think will be the next fiat banking calamity?

The stock market is evil, it allows asset stripers to gamble and make money on people's jobs, this is not investing in companies.

I was hoping for a complete collapse and implosion of the Russian ruble. Do you think that this would be realistic? It would certainly make me money, of course.

Asset striping again.

I was also hoping for Greece defaulting again on its loans. I made really good money the last time that they did. In fact,

And again

The people of Britain voted to come out of Europe, why should asset stripers be allowed to take advantage of a democratic vote?

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

[Scimitar]

Earlier today my good friend David, who is an atheist called me and said "this country is effed, why don't we both go to India and live in your family house there - it's gotta be better than what's happening here"... that was a long phone call as you can imagine.

I don't experience racism where I live, and haven't done since the early eighties.

American media - as usual - is fear mongering to make it's people believe they live in the "best nation in the world" which is very funny considering they are isolated from the rest of the world and live on a landmass that was invaded by Gog, destroyed by Gog and now tunnel visioned by Gog.

[Cpt.America]

American media isn't elevating itself at the moment in terms of Brexit. So I don't know why you would say they are fear mongering.
Americans honestly don't care about European politics, and consider the British European so..

But the reason Brexit has come up on our news is because the UK was basically the USA's door to the rest of the European market. The US has no incentive to trade with 'just Britain' so is understandably appalled that the UK has pulled out of the EU, as this can affect the trading bloc.
And unless the UK can maintain the status quo and remain a member of the free market, it is more likely that US and other international companies with branches and factories headquartered in the UK will pull out and relocate in Germany or France or some other European country.

To be completely honest all Americans care about the UK as a whole are:
Doctor Who, and Royal Babies. That's it.
The entire nation can collapse and the US public probably wouldn't bother to care, the U.K. is an ocean away and a foreign land.

Fear mongering has only been within British soil itself, although as an outsider I don't think that it was unwarranted;
the U.K. has honestly collapsed as the powerhouse it was after being decimated through world war 2. It doesn't have the colonies it had, or the economic might it once had, and honestly is a lot more reliant on the EU trading bloc than it would apparently like to admit. The old glory days of the British crown are long over.
I'm not sure that the leave campaigners realize that.
Maybe they assume they can become economically important as a market on their own, without the rest of Europe.
I guess only time will tell.
But honestly the rest of the world doesn't care to wait and find out.
As of right now, investing in the UK as a nonmember of the EU (if the referendum results are followed through), doesn't sound attractive to the rest of the international community for the most part. Whereas before if I invest I get the UK AND all of Europe, now I might just get the UK. Much less of an incentive.

[Cpt.America]

The US has bigger problems itself with the upcoming elections and possibilities of Trump winning.

With Brexit actually succeeding, it gives credence to the possibility of the most unexpected, and in this case that being Drumpf, so worst possible scenario, happening.

[Scimitar]

Fear mongering has only been within British soil itself,

You're not serious? are you?

I can find a plethora of examples to prove you wrong - like how Americans were led to believe the Birmingham was a Muslim state within the UK :D that one really tickled me.

Here:



See Mr captain Amreeki, that FOX/CNN fear mongering doesn't go unnoticed by us Muslims all over the planet - how can you remain so ignorant of your two most viral news agencies which spew innacurate nonsense... This video proves you not only wrong, but wrongfully patriotic to a failed nation that likes to think it is "great"... the only thing it's great at is propagating Islamophobia.

This is what I think:



Guzzy takes the total sarcastic fish from the FOX/CNN narrative :D he's funny (foz news aint gonna lie are they? :D that was total spank - with more spank)



Gosh bro, please try again :D

Scimi

[Karl]

Hmmm maybe the lefty liberal EU has been stifling the English. Is this a set up? It happened so easy. Has the English establishment turned it's eyes away from the east and is now focusing on it's overgrown obnoxious child to the west? Wouldn't an Anglo American empire be grand? And maybe even a greater empire of the Five Eyes Anglo sphere, the English speaking nations united to rule the world. Seems possible don't it?

[Cpt.America]

Scimi

Oh I'm not arguing that. Fox especially bashes Muslims every chance they get.

I just meant the Brexit stuff specifically.


I'm also not patriotic, so please don't accuse me of that. I simply wanted to point out that from my experience as a whole the US does not normally concern itself with British politics.
That is not to say they do not fear monger or incite divisions and anti-muslim rhetoric. (I never defended American media as being free of that.) But they don't turn to the UKs ongoings.

The fact that people were (honestly stupid enough to be) led to believe that Birmingham was a Muslim city with Sharia law within the UK, only points out both how uneducated the average American is about Britain,
and how anti-Muslim media and news stations such as Fox/CNN truly are.

[kritikvernunft]

I Think it is terribly wrong for any country to expose its currency to asset stripers.

In God we trust and in nothing else. The British pound is not God. It is obviously something else. I systematically short every possible false pagan belief in things that are obviously not God.
Therefore, the collapse of the British pound, confirms my faith in God, because God is the only value that you cannot short. Everything else can be shorted and therefore will be shorted, and therefore I will be the first one to do it, and make money from shorting yet another false, pagan god.

All your trust and belief in things that are not God, are just an open invitation for me to short it and make money from sinking yet another false, pagan belief.

The stock market is evil, it allows asset stripers to gamble and make money on people's jobs, this is not investing in companies.

Yes, I short the very concept of the stock market itself. If it wholesale crashes and burns, I stand to make lots of money.
I reject, reprobate, repudiate and denounce the false, pagan belief in the stock market, because in God we trust and in nothing else.
The collapse of the stock market, and the fact that such collapse would make me lots of money, is full proof for my religious belief.
These pagans trust in the stock market. Let them put their money where their mouth is, so that I can collect it from them.
Therefore, I seek to confiscate all pagan money, and to dispossess the pagans of everything they own. All money, assets, and value in the world is ultimately the property of God and should therefore be handed over in one way or another to his believers. I am a believer and therefore, I short the pagans, and when they crash and burn, I make lots of money.

Asset striping again.

Yes, I seek to stripe the pagans of everything they have.

The people of Britain voted to come out of Europe, why should asset stripers be allowed to take advantage of a democratic vote?

Because in God we trust, and in nothing else. I am a believer in God. They are not. Therefore, all their money, assets, and value must be transferred to believers such as myself, because that is the will of God.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you kritikvernunft;

The collapse of the stock market, and the fact that such collapse would make me lots of money, is full proof for my religious belief.

From what you say, it sounds as if money is your god, and you worship money. Coffee famers earn a couple of dollars a day, commodity traders earns tens of thousands, exploiting the work of these desperately poor coffee farmers. Self interest and greed is not going to destroy pagan ways, it fuels pagan ways.

Because in God we trust, and in nothing else. I am a believer in God. They are not. Therefore, all their money, assets, and value must be transferred to believers such as myself, because that is the will of God.

You have Bill Gates as a role model, he pays his Chinese workers a pittance, he overcharges his customers, and the odd seventy billion left over goes in his back pocket. He looks in his penny jar, and gives his loose change to the poor, but he still remains the richest man on Earth.

in God we trust and in nothing else.

The way you say this sounds very similar to George Bush, when he said, God bless America, before going off to bomb Iraq.

In the search for God, we have to do something, and it often involves changing ourselves.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people,

Eric

[kritikvernunft]

From what you say, it sounds as if money is your god, and you worship money.

Well, certainly not fiat money. I pretty much don't hold any. I am against the use of fiat (=government-emitted) money. If fiat money goes down the drain, my gold and bitcoin goes up. So, fiat money is certainly not my god. I consistently short fiat money. I actively seek to see the fiat money banking system being brought to its knees. Of course, I am not doing all this effort for no good reason, since I make money (bitcoin and gold) from every calamity in the fiat money realm. Therefore, you claim is a bit simplistic. You fail to distinguish between the various types of money. By amalgamating them, you are quite missing the point. As I said, in God we trust, and in nothing else. How could that view include worshipping money?

Coffee famers earn a couple of dollars a day, commodity traders earns tens of thousands, exploiting the work of these desperately poor coffee farmers.

I have no opinion about other people's income. It is of absolutely no importance to me.

Self interest and greed is not going to destroy pagan ways, it fuels pagan ways.

I do not desire money for the money. I desire to sink the pagans and their false beliefs, and obviously, to make money doing so. Why would I seek to lose money sinking the pagans and their false beliefs? What would that be good for? Your views are possibly irrational and ultimately also inconsistent.

You have Bill Gates as a role model, he pays his Chinese workers a pittance

I have no opinion about what Bill Gates pays to his Chinese workers, and I never will. Your claim is neither tautological, nor provable, nor falsifiable, and not even corroborated. Unless you back up your views with something substantiated, its validation status must be considered close to zero.

he overcharges his customers, and the odd seventy billion left over goes in his back pocket. He looks in his penny jar, and gives his loose change to the poor, but he still remains the richest man on Earth.

So? There is nothing wrong with being the richest man on earth. Morality is about NOT breaking a number of categorical imperatives. Morality is NOT about outcomes. One man could accumulate all the income on the globe, and it would still not be an issue, if while doing so, he does not engage in any of the behaviours listed as forbidden in the scriptures. You may not like a particular outcome, but nobody cares about that. I certainly do not. Outcomes in and of themselves are not fair or unfair. The laws of God do not say how income should be distributed. Therefore, all views about how income should be distributed, should fundamentally be considered to be false, pagan beliefs.

The way you say this sounds very similar to George Bush, when he said, God bless America, before going off to bomb Iraq.

I would absolutely have no problem whatsoever seeing the Iraqis (suicide) bombing them back. In my impression, sooner or later, they very well may do that. In the end, everybody does what they want. If you bomb people, that means that you are willing to risk your life and die for what you believe in, and then you must also embrace and cherish the idea of getting bombed yourself. In that sense, both sides should be grateful to each other for giving each other the opportunity to prove that they are willing to risk their lives and die for what they believe in.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update. Interesting analysis on why the EU is failing.

Marine Le Pen writes in the New York Times

The European Union has become a prison of peoples. Each of the 28 countries that constitute it has slowly lost its democratic prerogatives to commissions and councils with no popular mandate. Every nation in the union has had to apply laws it did not want for itself. Member nations no longer determine their own budgets. They are called upon to open their borders against their will.

Countries in the eurozone face an even less enviable situation. In the name of ideology, different economies are forced to adopt the same currency, even if doing so bleeds them dry. It’s a modern version of the Procrustean bed, and the people no longer have a say.

And what about the European Parliament? It’s democratic in appearance only, because it’s based on a lie: the pretense that there is a homogeneous European people, and that a Polish member of the European Parliament has the legitimacy to make law for the Spanish. We have tried to deny the existence of sovereign nations. It’s only natural that they would not allow being denied.

Brexit wasn’t the European people’s first cry of revolt. In 2005, France and the Netherlands held referendums about the proposed European Union constitution. In both countries, opposition was massive, and other governments decided on the spot to halt the experiment for fear the contagion might spread. A few years later, the European Union constitution was forced on the people of Europe anyway, under the guise of the Lisbon Treaty. In 2008, Ireland, also by way of referendum, refused to apply that treaty. And once again, a popular decision was brushed aside.

When in 2015 Greece decided by referendum to reject Brussels’ austerity plans, the European Union’s antidemocratic response took no one by surprise: To deny the people’s will had become a habit. In a flash of honesty, the president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, unabashedly declared, “There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.”

Brexit may not have been the first cry of hope, but it may be the people’s first real victory.

[سيف الله]

salaam

Seems our globalist overlords are getting nervous at the sight of the peasants revolting. How are they going to protect their privileges now?

The politics of anger

The triumph of the Brexit campaign is a warning to the liberal international order

MANY Brexiteers built their campaign on optimism. Outside the European Union, Britain would be free to open up to the world. But what secured their victory was anger.

Anger stirred up a winning turnout in the depressed, down-at-heel cities of England (see article). Anger at immigration, globalisation, social liberalism and even feminism, polling shows, translated into a vote to reject the EU. As if victory were a licence to spread hatred, anger has since lashed Britain’s streets with an outburst of racist abuse.

Across Western democracies, from the America of Donald Trump to the France of Marine Le Pen, large numbers of people are enraged. If they cannot find a voice within the mainstream, they will make themselves heard from without. Unless they believe that the global order works to their benefit, Brexit risks becoming just the start of an unravelling of globalisation and the prosperity it has created.

The rest of history

Today’s crisis in liberalism—in the free-market, British sense—was born in 1989, out of the ashes of the Soviet Union. At the time the thinker Francis Fukuyama declared “the end of history”, the moment when no ideology was left to challenge democracy, markets and global co-operation as a way of organising society. It was liberalism’s greatest triumph, but it also engendered a narrow, technocratic politics obsessed by process. In the ensuing quarter-century the majority has prospered, but plenty of voters feel as if they have been left behind.

Their anger is justified. Proponents of globalisation, including this newspaper, must acknowledge that technocrats have made mistakes and ordinary people paid the price. The move to a flawed European currency, a technocratic scheme par excellence, led to stagnation and unemployment and is driving Europe apart. Elaborate financial instruments bamboozled regulators, crashed the world economy and ended up with taxpayer-funded bail-outs of banks, and later on, budget cuts.

Even when globalisation has been hugely beneficial, policymakers have not done enough to help the losers. Trade with China has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and brought immense gains for Western consumers. But many factory workers who have lost their jobs have been unable to find a decently paid replacement.

Rather than spread the benefits of globalisation, politicians have focused elsewhere. The left moved on to arguments about culture—race, greenery, human rights and sexual politics. The right preached meritocratic self-advancement, but failed to win everyone the chance to partake in it. Proud industrial communities that look to family and nation suffered alienation and decay. Mendacious campaigning mirrored by partisan media amplified the sense of betrayal.

Less obviously, the intellectual underpinnings of liberalism have been neglected. When Mr Trump called for protectionism this week, urging Americans to “take back control” (see article), he was both parroting the Brexiteers and exploiting how almost no politician has been willing to make the full-throated case for trade liberalisation as a boost to prosperity rather than a cost or a concession. Liberalism depends on a belief in progress but, for many voters, progress is what happens to other people. While American GDP per person grew by 14% in 2001-15, median wages grew by only 2%. Liberals believe in the benefits of pooling sovereignty for the common good. But, as Brexit shows, when people feel they do not control their lives or share in the fruits of globalisation, they strike out. The distant, baffling, overbearing EU makes an irresistible target.

Back to the future
Now that history has stormed back with a vengeance, liberalism needs to fight its ground all over again. Part of the task is to find the language to make a principled, enlightened case and to take on people like Ms Le Pen and Mr Trump. The flow of goods, ideas, capital and people is essential for prosperity. The power of a hectoring, bullying, discriminatory state is a threat to human happiness. The virtues of tolerance and compromise are conditions for people to realise their full potential.

Just as important is the need for policies to ensure the diffusion of prosperity. The argument for helping those mired in deprivation is strong. But a culture of compensation turns angry people into resentful objects of state charity. Hence, liberals also need to restore social mobility and ensure that economic growth translates into rising wages. That means a relentless focus on dismantling privilege by battling special interests, exposing incumbent companies to competition and breaking down restrictive practices. Most of all, the West needs an education system that works for everyone, of whatever social background and whatever age.

The fight for liberalism is at its most fraught with immigration. Given that most governments manage who comes to work and live in their country, the EU’s total freedom of movement is an anomaly. Just as global trade rules allow countries to counter surges of goods, so there is a case for rules to cope with surges in people. But it would be illiberal and self-defeating to give in to the idea that immigration is merely something to tolerate. Sooner than curb numbers, governments should first invest in schools, hospitals and housing. In Britain new migrants from the EU contribute more to the exchequer than they take out. Without them, industries such as care homes and the building trade would be short of labour. Without their ideas and their energy, Britain would be much the poorer.

Liberalism has been challenged before. At the end of the 19th century, liberals embraced a broader role for the state, realising that political and economic freedoms are diminished if basic human needs are unmet. In the 1970s liberals concluded that the embrace of the state had become smothering and oppressive. That rekindled an interest in markets.

When Margaret Thatcher was prime minister, amid the triumph of Soviet collapse, an aide slipped Mr Fukuyama’s essay on history into her papers. The next morning she declared herself unimpressed. Never take history for granted, she said. Never let up. For liberals today that must be the rallying cry.

http://www.economist.com/news/leader...4615ba3c16df4a

[M.I.A.]

Well as euro 2016 draws to a close, we can safely say that most of Europe will participate the next time round.

Nothing changes.

..although seth platter may have to make a new title for himself.



Also if Scotland remain in the eu how will England keep out immigrants?

...Yes am that thick :/

Well, certainly not fiat money. I pretty much don't hold any. I am against the use of fiat (=government-emitted) money. If fiat money goes down the drain, my gold and bitcoin goes up. So, fiat money is certainly not my god. I consistently short fiat money. I actively seek to see the fiat money banking system being brought to its knees. Of course, I am not doing all this effort for no good reason, since I make money (bitcoin and gold) from every calamity in the fiat money realm. Therefore, you claim is a bit simplistic. You fail to distinguish between the various types of money. By amalgamating them, you are quite missing the point. As I said, in God we trust, and in nothing else. How could that view include worshipping money?

I have no opinion about other people's income. It is of absolutely no importance to me.

I do not desire money for the money. I desire to sink the pagans and their false beliefs, and obviously, to make money doing so. Why would I seek to lose money sinking the pagans and their false beliefs? What would that be good for? Your views are possibly irrational and ultimately also inconsistent.

I have no opinion about what Bill Gates pays to his Chinese workers, and I never will. Your claim is neither tautological, nor provable, nor falsifiable, and not even corroborated. Unless you back up your views with something substantiated, its validation status must be considered close to zero.

So? There is nothing wrong with being the richest man on earth. Morality is about NOT breaking a number of categorical imperatives. Morality is NOT about outcomes. One man could accumulate all the income on the globe, and it would still not be an issue, if while doing so, he does not engage in any of the behaviours listed as forbidden in the scriptures. You may not like a particular outcome, but nobody cares about that. I certainly do not. Outcomes in and of themselves are not fair or unfair. The laws of God do not say how income should be distributed. Therefore, all views about how income should be distributed, should fundamentally be considered to be false, pagan beliefs.

I would absolutely have no problem whatsoever seeing the Iraqis (suicide) bombing them back. In my impression, sooner or later, they very well may do that. In the end, everybody does what they want. If you bomb people, that means that you are willing to risk your life and die for what you believe in, and then you must also embrace and cherish the idea of getting bombed yourself. In that sense, both sides should be grateful to each other for giving each other the opportunity to prove that they are willing to risk their lives and die for what they believe in.

..well, at least he didn't say Jews.

Quoted the wrong post :/

Although I would think none of the things you think are God are actually God..

Just the people you associate with.

[Muezzin]

Brits... How are you all doing? Are news reports exaggerated or is it really that bad? Racists out in open abusing women and kids, beating up people.

Nah, that's just Thursdays.

[cooterhein]

This is after the fact, but....stay was the right choice, and the United Kingdom got it wrong. Well, more specifically England.

The entire premise of the vote was problematic from the beginning. The United Kingdom has four countries in that country, and the Leave result should have been contingent on all four parts of the whole- England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland- getting a majority of votes to leave. Any other result should have kept them in, albeit with the possibility of a re-vote.

As it is, England was the main reason that Leave won by a razor-thin margin, while some other parts of the UK voted pretty decisively to stay. But now England is dragging the entirety of the UK out of the EU, and that's not how this is supposed to work.

[Zafran]

and wales

[kritikvernunft]

Although I would think none of the things you think are God are actually God.

We can use Aristotle's theorem in order to define the One God as the attraction point for the repeated application of the causality function. It is just a fancy mathematical way to say that Genesis 1:1 . In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Quite a few people confuse belief in the One God with gullibility. However, as you can clearly see around you, the One God does not particularly extend his favours to the uneducated, the gullible, the incompetent, or anybody else whose poverty is also the result of a persistent Dunning-Kruger issue. Therefore, we can show our gratitude to the One God by affirming that in the One God we trust and in nothing else.

[Zafran]

We can use Aristotle's theorem in order to define the One God as the attraction point for the repeated application of the causality function. It is just a fancy mathematical way to say that Genesis 1:1 . In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Quite a few people confuse belief in the One God with gullibility. However, as you can clearly see around you, the One God does not particularly extend his favours to the uneducated, the gullible, the incompetent, or anybody else whose poverty is also the result of a persistent Dunning-Kruger issue. Therefore, we can show our gratitude to the One God by affirming that in the One God we trust and in nothing else.

What about the murderers and cheaters - they sit on golden thrones in the world. God guides who he wills. God promises the truthful, the patient, righteous and the martyrs will have there reward with there lord be they rich or poor on the last day.

wealth, health, youth and life are all a test at the end of the day.

[kritikvernunft]

What about the murderers and cheaters

These behaviours are outlawed and explicitly mentioned in the Quranic text as forbidden. Therefore, it is just a question of enforcing the Law. I do not see where the problem is. There is no problem. Just knock them out. As you know, the One God has given us the Law. Are we so lazy that we should ask our beloved Master to also apply it case by case for us? If it is our beloved Master who is going to do all the work, anyway, what does he need us for? Either people are going to start pulling their own weight, and show that they are at least remotely useful, or else what the hell are they here for?

they sit on golden thrones in the world.

Everybody can sit on a golden throne, if he wants to. That particular behaviour is not mentioned as forbidden in the Quranic text. Therefore, I am not going to lift a finger. Let them sit where they want. The Quranic text does not mention where exactly people should be sitting. Therefore, everybody is free to sit where he wants.

God guides who he wills. God promises the truthful, the patient, righteous and the martyrs will have there reward with there lord be they rich or poor on the last day.

Yes, most likely. But above and beyond the Quranic text, I am not going second-guess the will of our beloved Master. I certainly do not know what all of this was supposed to be useful. He has his reasons for having created the universe. Figuring out why exactly it was supposed to be a good idea, is not my call, nor my ambition. The Quranic text will tell what is forbidden onto you. The text will tell you what is impermissible behaviour. If you truly believe, you will seek to refrain from engaging in that kind of depravities. Besides that, I would say: just keep yourself busy, until our beloved Master calls you back. In the meanwhile, you have been informed of the Qasis, i.e. the Codex Hammurabi, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. If somebody does Satanic things, and you feel that your interests have been damaged, seek to knock him out. That will teach him.

wealth, health, youth and life are all a test at the end of the day.

Who cares about these things? If there are people who want these things badly, let them seek them. Who are we to tell them what to do? There is no compulsion in religion. Of course, they should not dream of breaking our beloved Master's law and believe for one second that we are not going retaliate. That is also not how it works. That would just be a silly form of gullible naivism.

[cooterhein]

Who cares about these things? If there are people who want these things badly, let them seek them. Who are we to tell them what to do? There is no compulsion in religion. Of course, they should not dream of breaking our beloved Master's law and believe for one second that we are not going retaliate. That is also not how it works. That would just be a silly form of gullible naivism.

Are you law enforcement? Who hired or otherwise appointed you to be the enforcer of laws?

Is it a silly form of gullible naivism to believe you do not, in fact, have any business punishing people in order to enforce laws of any kind? As far as I know, that would just be an accurate assessment of reality.

So once more, are you law enforcement? Yes or no, please.

[BeTheChange]

Asalamualykum,

A reminder for all.

Please stick to the original thread discussion.

If you feel something else needs to be discussed feel free to create a relevant thread.

Jazahka Allah.

[Zafran]

These behaviours are outlawed and explicitly mentioned in the Quranic text as forbidden. Therefore, it is just a question of enforcing the Law. I do not see where the problem is. There is no problem. Just knock them out. As you know, the One God has given us the Law. Are we so lazy that we should ask our beloved Master to also apply it case by case for us? If it is our beloved Master who is going to do all the work, anyway, what does he need us for? Either people are going to start pulling their own weight, and show that they are at least remotely useful, or else what the hell are they here for?

Everybody can sit on a golden throne, if he wants to. That particular behaviour is not mentioned as forbidden in the Quranic text. Therefore, I am not going to lift a finger. Let them sit where they want. The Quranic text does not mention where exactly people should be sitting. Therefore, everybody is free to sit where he wants.

Yes, most likely. But above and beyond the Quranic text, I am not going second-guess the will of our beloved Master. I certainly do not know what all of this was supposed to be useful. He has his reasons for having created the universe. Figuring out why exactly it was supposed to be a good idea, is not my call, nor my ambition. The Quranic text will tell what is forbidden onto you. The text will tell you what is impermissible behaviour. If you truly believe, you will seek to refrain from engaging in that kind of depravities. Besides that, I would say: just keep yourself busy, until our beloved Master calls you back. In the meanwhile, you have been informed of the Qasis, i.e. the Codex Hammurabi, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. If somebody does Satanic things, and you feel that your interests have been damaged, seek to knock him out. That will teach him.

Who cares about these things? If there are people who want these things badly, let them seek them. Who are we to tell them what to do? There is no compulsion in religion. Of course, they should not dream of breaking our beloved Master's law and believe for one second that we are not going retaliate. That is also not how it works. That would just be a silly form of gullible naivism.

You dont seem to understand my post at all. Here is a tip - read stuff In context, you might actually understand the post and not go on a contradictory tangent that doesn't have anything to do with the post and frankly does not even make any sense.

[kritikvernunft]

Are you law enforcement? Who hired or otherwise appointed you to be the enforcer of laws?

You see, decentralization is indeed a problem considered to be hard, but still very possible. The easy way out is to centralize the system. That is the main reason why law enforcement is centralized. It simply takes a lot of hard work to decentralize anything.

For example, do you need to store all data in one central database, or can you use a swarm of system that will collectively form one database?

Since it is possible to decentralize a possible basic building brick of a database system, i.e. a distributed hashtable, for which we now have years of practical experience with bittorrent, and since a btree can clearly be implemented in terms of hash tables, the theoretical possibility clearly exists to deploy a database as a decentralized swarm without central authority. You can clearly do all of that while still sailing under the flag of provability.

Furthermore, our technology clan has most famously solved the problem of decentralizing the issuing of currency. So, indeed, yes, you do not need a central authority to issue currency. Bitcoin has no central authority issuing currency. It is completely decentralized. Furthermore, Bitcoin has also famously deployed a functioning solution for the otherwise unsolvable Byzantine generals' problem that automatically arises in a situation of decentralization.

Therefore, you can reasonably assume that we will at some point be able to propose a decentralized system, a swarm, of law enforcement, as a replacement for the centralized system currently implemented through national states. It is obviously a similar technology problem, of the kind of which we have in fact solved so many already.

So once more, are you law enforcement? Yes or no, please.

All enforcement, of any kind, rests on technology, which is indeed under full control of the technology clan.
So, yes, it is ultimately the clan that controls all arrows of enforcement.

The clan is a virtual entity that consists of the people who actually understand how technology works and who control the lowest-level accounts on the existing systems. We are collectively the root account of the internet.

Now, you also have to realize that the clan may indeed be a libertarian bulwark, and therefore staunchly opposed to systems of national states, which we consider to be utterly inferior constructs, but also that the clan is not particularly united beyond that.

We could, indeed, from the one day to the other, just expel the political idiots and simply take over, since it is us who control everything anyway. Unfortunately, there is no consensus. Therefore, the clan will not do it.

So, yes, as a collective, we could trivially easily start explicitly controlling law enforcement, military enforcement, or any type of enforcement.
It would indeed be trivially easy for us to push the political idiots on their knees.
The political idiots know this, and that is why they shiver in fear for us.

I am a hawk, but the majority of the clan are doves. The doves will not agree to knock out the political idiots. That is why the hawks are waiting for the statist enemy to bomb Perl Harbor, so that the hawks can overrule the doves, and finally solve the problem.

I am a bit frustrated with the inaction of the clan. That is why I also like to hang out with the islamic clan, hoping to see a bit more motivation there. I personally think that the national state is just a filthy Satanic wh.or.e that wants to suck us dry and tell us what to do, and that the sl.ut has to go now. Of course, it would make a lot of sense if members of the islamic clan managed to pick up a bit of knowledge on technology, because that would allow them to join the other clan, and more staunchly oppose the idea of using arrows of enforcement against islamic populations. In the end, looking at these things from their inner sanctum, it would be trivially easy to prevent jet fighters to take off, or to disturb the coordinates of their targets, or to arrange failures during their landing approaches. I mean, as anybody who understands technology can tell you, it is very hard to make these things work properly, and very easy to introduce subtle failures. If such subtle failures were introduced deliberately, the whole system would simply collapse.

[kritikvernunft]

Are you law enforcement? Who hired or otherwise appointed you to be the enforcer of laws?

By the way, for people who are ignorant of technology, like yourself, all of this sounds like magic. From what you say, I know that you do not understand whatsoever how this page actually works, or how its underlying software, vBulletin 4.2.2, could possibly create this kind of magic?

For the cognoscenti, a thing like this very forum is considered to be an utterly menial low-tech construct.

Of course, we already know how to do particular forms of decentralized law enforcement.

We do things that are way more complicated than that; but with even the simplest things obviously unattainable for you someone like you, it is obviously beyond your wildest dreams that you would be able to construct something as simple as this forum. However, this says something about you, and not about the real world around you, of which you understand approximately nothing.

For example, look at the Jim Bell assassination market concept.
In terms of technology, it is nothing to build that.

Look at how the political idiots start panicking because one of the 10+ million people who are capable of building a thing like that, from their own laptops, suddenly decides to do it.

I could show you things of which just the theoretical description would give them an instant heart attack.

I do not know if you realize that, but the political idiots do not control the nuclear arsenal. Anybody who feels like putting in the effort of taking control over the chain of keys and passwords that control the nuclear arsenal, would control it in their stead. Therefore, their nuclear arsenal is an illusion. They do not control it. We control it.

You see, I am a hawk, but I do not feel like overruling our doves just like that. I prefer to wait for the statist enemy to finally give use the excuse that we need.

[cooterhein]

Okay, yeah, bethechange was right. This is something for a different thread.

[kritikvernunft]

Okay, yeah, bethechange was right. This is something for a different thread.

If the answer was, then the question was too.
In that case, do not raise the issue.
At the same time, do not impute your own limitations to other people. It is not because you cannot do it, that everybody cannot do it, because in that case we would not have cars, airplanes, or computers for that matter; if only what you can do, is what would actually be possible, we would probably not even live in caves.

[BeTheChange]

:threadclo

It's a shame a few spoil the original discussion for the majority.

Please read the forum rules before posting - http://www.islamicboard.com/faq.php?..._liforum_rules