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world citizen
06-06-2016, 01:05 AM
Okay I have a question as far as Muslims and praying to other than God.

Now, as far as I know if a Muslim prays to other than God that this is always considered disbelief and that he needs to ask God to forgive him if he realizes it and God will of course forgive him.

However, isn't it abundantly clear that a Muslim should never make a supplication (which is considered a prayer) to other than God?

Well, I've heard of stories where modern day Muslims (Sunnis) make supplications (asking for help) to the Prophet and that they don't consider this as disbelief.

My question is, why don't they consider this as disbelief?

Do they not consider a supplication to be a form of prayer? Have they maybe twisted or misunderstood certain Hadeeths?

Thanks in advance :)
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EgyptPrincess
06-06-2016, 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by world citizen
Now, as far as I know if a Muslim prays to other than God that this is always considered disbelief and that he needs to ask God to forgive him if he realizes it and God will of course forgive him.
No Allah swt will not forgive you for shirk. I don't know of any Muslims that prayer for guidance or help from Muhammad saw. Muhammed, although a prophet, is still a slave of Allah swt and has no power or authority, this is only for Allah swt.

Perhaps they make dua through Muhammad saw because he is a messenger after all and they feel Muhammad saw will deliver this message to Allah swt but it makes no sense because Allah swt will always hear your dua.
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world citizen
06-06-2016, 01:55 AM
What I meant was that if a Muslim is committing "disbelief" but then realizes it and stops before he dies, that God will forgive him. In other words if he repents, after realizing his error.

Yes, as far as the second part I've heard that they make dua through him. They will say, something to the effect, O Prophet, ask Allah to help me, etc. Obviously when he was alive that's all well and good but I'm talking about modern day Muslims.

To me it doesn't make sense. Also as far as I know, they also do this to dead, very pious Shaykhs and whatnot.

Yes, why not go directly to God?
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EgyptPrincess
06-06-2016, 02:09 AM
Originally Posted by world citizen
What I meant was that if a Muslim is committing "disbelief" but then realizes it and stops before he dies, that God will forgive him. In other words if he repents, after realizing his error.

Yes, as far as the second part I've heard that they make dua through him. They will say, something to the effect, O Prophet, ask Allah to help me, etc. Obviously when he was alive that's all well and good but I'm talking about modern day Muslims.

To me it doesn't make sense. Also as far as I know, they also do this to dead, very pious Shaykhs and whatnot.

Yes, why not go directly to God?
Like I said I've never met a Muslim that prays to a dead person. This is strictly forbidden as far as I'm aware.

If a Muslim does, for whatever reason, worship another god besides Allah swt then ultimately this is shirk and cannot be forgiven. However Allah swt is all merciful and knows best about peoples intentions and mistakes.

Allahu alam
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Alpha Dude
06-06-2016, 02:12 AM
Yes, why not go directly to God?
It's silly asking this question.

You know the Islamic religions says Muslims can't do such things - why is it important for you to know why people do them anyway? It's like asking, I know murder is illegal but some people do it - why? Or stealing is illegal but some people still do it - why? And so on.

The "why" is a question that you'd ask to a perpetrator. Not generally to everyone.
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Regrets1
06-06-2016, 02:20 AM
They ask the dead because they think they can help them as they were pious so Allah will listen to them "more"..wrong logic..such people don't realise Allah hears duas and repentance of all his slaves..the dead need help themselves how can they help us? Allah has not put any barriers between him and his slaves and can be approached directly.
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world citizen
06-06-2016, 03:09 AM
Originally Posted by EgyptPrincess
Like I said I've never met a Muslim that prays to a dead person. This is strictly forbidden as far as I'm aware.

If a Muslim does, for whatever reason, worship another god besides Allah swt then ultimately this is shirk and cannot be forgiven. However Allah swt is all merciful and knows best about peoples intentions and mistakes.

Allahu alam
Yes, again I'm not saying that Allah will accept this and forgive the person while he is still doing this. I'm saying that I've heard that Allah will forgive this person "if" he makes sincere repentance, and of course never, ever does this again. Although I also find it hard to believe that Muslims would even think anything like this is permissible.

I'll give one antidote or an example, as related by a Muslim friend of mine, who is from a Muslim country (very poor, but simple country). In this country, there are a large amount of Muslims that actually pray at the graves of pious Shaykhs. They make dua to these dead Shaykhs at these graves. Now my friend said that his grandfather, who was a known Imam, gave dawah to these people over the years explaining how haraam this was, saying that this is kufr and shirk. And a lot of the people said, thank-you for telling us, as we didn't know and we don't know too much about the religion; we used to see our fathers and relatives do this and we thought this was okay, etc. So my friend said that a lot of people repented to Allah and actually stopped doing these shirki types of practices, and God willing Allah forgave them. Of course a lot of people were stubborn, and didn't even want to hear any dawah or advice no matter how polite or gentle, probably getting real mad, and of course probably continued with doing this.

I'm sure you've seen them, but there are various videos on YouTube that either show people refuting such practices and others of course trying to say or prove that these things are "valid."
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world citizen
06-06-2016, 03:24 AM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
It's silly asking this question.

You know the Islamic religions says Muslims can't do such things - why is it important for you to know why people do them anyway? It's like asking, I know murder is illegal but some people do it - why? Or stealing is illegal but some people still do it - why? And so on.

The "why" is a question that you'd ask to a perpetrator. Not generally to everyone.
Sorry and I agree. However, there are some Sunnis that allege that some form of duas and such is perfectly acceptable (i.e. to a so-called Saint, or pious Shaykh, etc.). No, I don't think they are correct but they do say this. And obviously the Shia do these things all the time, not that I wanted to bring them up.
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world citizen
06-06-2016, 03:27 AM
Originally Posted by Regrets1
They ask the dead because they think they can help them as they were pious so Allah will listen to them "more"..wrong logic..such people don't realise Allah hears duas and repentance of all his slaves..the dead need help themselves how can they help us? Allah has not put any barriers between him and his slaves and can be approached directly.
Yes, exactly. These are the exact arguments and rationalizations they use.
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eesa the kiwi
06-06-2016, 04:25 AM
Originally Posted by EgyptPrincess
Like I said I've never met a Muslim that prays to a dead person. This is strictly forbidden as far as I'm aware.

If a Muslim does, for whatever reason, worship another god besides Allah swt then ultimately this is shirk and cannot be forgiven. However Allah swt is all merciful and knows best about peoples intentions and mistakes.

Allahu alam
Just a slight correction
If a person makes taubah from shirk while alive inshaallah Allah will forgive them
It is the people who die upon shirk who will never be forgiven
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AbdurRahman.
06-07-2016, 03:28 PM
I don't think any muslims supplicate to Prophet Muhammad [saw], but what they do is ask him to pray for them to Allah, so it's only a plea for him [saw] to pray for them ... when they ask him, they intend for Allah to take this request to Prophet [saw] via the angels
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sister herb
06-07-2016, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by world citizen
Well, I've heard of stories where modern day Muslims (Sunnis) make supplications (asking for help) to the Prophet and that they don't consider this as disbelief.
From where you have heard those stories? You can´t come here and tell like "I have heard, I have read, some scholars have said etc." if you can´t verify your source. Without it we can´t to be sure if you have really heard or read anything but tell here your own stories.

So, source please. And hopely it´s not some anti-Islamic site at this time.
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world citizen
06-07-2016, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
From where you have heard those stories? You can´t come here and tell like "I have heard, I have read, some scholars have said etc." if you can´t verify your source. Without it we can´t to be sure if you have really heard or read anything but tell here your own stories.

So, source please. And hopely it´s not some anti-Islamic site at this time.
I have heard of these things happening. Please see my above personal "anecdote" (misspelled this earlier, sorry) that I previously posted. Also please see some of the other responses to this, while not agreeing, admitting to an extent that this may exist. And I don't in anyway think this is part of Islam; not at all. Also please look up Shaykh Gribil Haddad, as he pretty much promotes this unIslamic stuff.

While the anti-Muslims do make up a lot BS about Muslims, this is not one I've heard (not saying they wouldn't, although this is doubtful IMO). Most of them are either themselves doing shirk or are allies with people openly committing shirk (Hindus, Christians) or want to win over these people.

This is a whole different issue in terms of the whole organized Islamophobia movement and who they are and why they are doing it, etc. This is something I don't believe most Muslims or non-Muslims totally grasp. To an extent yes, but not totally. We can talk about this elsewhere if you'd like but very succinctly I'll give my brief opinion of who is behind it and why:

IMO, the main people who are really behind this movement and are funding and supporting it are dual citizen, extremist Zionists that put Israel first (and 2nd and 3rd) and are trying to get their western (i.e. at least nominally "Christian") slaves and puppets to fight more Crusades for Zion. Also, in part what these extremist anti-Muslim Ziocons/Neocons want is to constantly stoke up the "clash of civilizations" paradigm so they will get more and more "Christians" (and westerners in general) to hate Muslims and Islam, so the common westerner will be willing to fight more Crusades and wars against various Muslim countries for the sake of Zion and expanding Greater Israel (no, it's not a "conspiracy theory" - just ask the Palestinians, LOL) which entails the area of the Niles to the Euphrates. Part of the more esoteric element of this is that many of these people also want to bring about their so-called Messiah (i.e. The Dajjal or anti-Christ), ruling from occupied Jerusalem.

Now, a large part of this whole Islamophobia movement - which obviously includes trying to bring about lot of hate for Islam and Muslims - also involves perpetrating various false flag attacks and psyops and blaming these on Muslims, whether Muslims were involved or not, and to a large degree at most, they were probably only patsies (and obviously I'm not saying everything is a so-called false flag). False flags are nothing new and have been around for hundreds/thousands of years. You know a bit about occupied Palestine which is great ;-) Then surely you also probably know about the bombing of the King David hotel in 1946, the Lavon Affair in Egypt in 1954, and the Attack of the American USS Liberty Ship in 1967, under cover of further preemptive ethic cleansing of 1948 Palestine. These are only a few amongst many of the Zionist led false flags (there are more recent, maybe groundbreaking ones but I don't want to be called a so-called "conspiracy theorist"), and all governments and various groups have pretty much done these kinds of acts from time to time. In all of these previous acts that I mentioned, Zionists were comitting acts of terror or war, although trying to make it look like it was "Muslims" who were the actual perpetrators.
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~ Sabr ~
06-10-2016, 12:52 PM
It's called Waseelah and this is a concept in Islam - google it.
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world citizen
06-10-2016, 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by ~ Sabr ~
It's called Waseelah and this is a concept in Islam - google it.
Thanks for your input. I'll check this out God Willing.
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greenhill
06-10-2016, 06:16 PM
As a citizen of the world too, we have to understand the bigger picture. Moments in time are just that. Our story really began with the creation of Adam pbuh. Our part is just a moment of that entire history. With each generation, something is added to the collective knowledge (perhaps other taken, distorted etc).

I see and think I understand why things are happening and happening the way they are, why is it that it gets harder to 'see' God through our physical eyes in this modern age. Even what we are taught is very opposite to the concept of God. So how do we find God?

So in the 'quest' to find truth, there will be those who fall prey to tricks learnt through the ages, perfecting over time, reinforced through cooperation of 'groups', somehow made binding, that is laced so as to entrap and then come under 'control' of forces intent on blinding the world from the path to/of Allah.

It all started with Iblees swearing that he will lead us all to hell with him. And, superficially, he is doing a good job with that.

So why people do what you say? They are confused. They are scared. Allah knows best. We can only advise them, like the best is to offer salutations to nabii saw. Allah replies for you 10x. And I believe nabi will vouch for you.. they have perhaps, in their insecurities, feel terribly unworthy that they (even worse) feel the need for an intermediary?. Allah only knows.

So, do you think the devil and his army are going to let these types opportunities go? It is happening universally in islam. Which country does not follow the rule law based or in reaction to the laws of the West? Which country is not affected by the system of currency initiated at the Bretton -Woods agreement that ended barter trade and legalised interest rates, effectively. We live riba now.

The nation of priests, supposedly, the nessages up to Jesus, were primarily for the Jews, as guides to devise an 'islamic' system of law and commerce, so that by the time of our holy prophet (saw), with the Quran, a message for the world, we would be living in an ideal situation. There would be no poverty for starters. Instead, those tribes entrusted with the Divine Guide, decided to follow Satan! And created the world as we know it now.

Satan is still at work. He is not resting on his laurels. Hence, we will find people practising odd things, bidaah so to speak..

It is trying times....and will be more trying in times to come. May we be given protection and guidance.


:peace:
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
06-10-2016, 07:25 PM
بسم الله الرحمان الرحيم

What the questioner is referring to is a practice known as "Istighaathah", which literally means "to seek help". According to Ahlus Sunnah wal-Jamaa`ah, it is Shirk and not permissible to do. However, there are certain deviated groups which do it, such as the Barelvis and the Ahbash (also known as the AICP). They present certain flawed arguments to substantiate their actions. However, even Fitratan (innately), every Muslim knows that it is not permissible. The entire Qur'aan is permeated by the concept of Tawheed. There is no room for Shirk. In fact, Soorat-ul-Faatihah itself contains a refutation of Istighaathah. We read:

إياك نعبد وإياك نستعين

{"You Alone do we worship, and from You Alone do we seek help."}

Now, those who have studied Arabic know that "Iyyaaka" is used for emphasis, and to denote exclusiveness. So we are saying we worship Only Allaah Ta`aalaa and seek help Only from him. This Aayah is a clear refutation of the concept of Istighaathah, and seeking help from those who have passed away.

As for why they do it, then the reasons are numerous, and all of those reasons are inspired unto them by Shaytaan, who wishes to take people away from Allaah Ta`aalaa. That is his primary goal. Some people make Istighaathah while thinking that the dead will ask Allaah Ta`alaa on their behalf. Others make Istighaathah while thinking that the Wali/Buzrug himself has been granted the power to answer the Du`aas of people. This is even worse than the other kind. All of this is Shaytaaniyat. The primary reasons people do it is because of a lack of `Ilm, and because Shaytaan has misled them.

May Allaah Ta`aalaa protect all of us,

آمين يا رب العالمين

والسلام
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Scimitar
06-10-2016, 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by world citizen
Okay I have a question as far as Muslims and praying to other than God.

Now, as far as I know if a Muslim prays to other than God that this is always considered disbelief and that he needs to ask God to forgive him if he realizes it and God will of course forgive him.

However, isn't it abundantly clear that a Muslim should never make a supplication (which is considered a prayer) to other than God?

Well, I've heard of stories where modern day Muslims (Sunnis) make supplications (asking for help) to the Prophet and that they don't consider this as disbelief.

My question is, why don't they consider this as disbelief?

Do they not consider a supplication to be a form of prayer? Have they maybe twisted or misunderstood certain Hadeeths?

Thanks in advance :)
It's pure and blatant shirk to pray to other than God.

Scimi
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AabiruSabeel
06-10-2016, 09:02 PM
The question has been answered. Closing the thread to prevent derailment.


:threadclo
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