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kritikvernunft
06-28-2016, 02:22 AM
I was originally born into Christianity, into the Holy Apostolic Church. I have never really told anybody there that I was leaving. So, I may still be considered a member in ways.

However, I do not think that anybody would call my views Christian.

For a starters, I do not believe that God would have human relatives, or human children, or a son or so. This very idea sounds absolutely ridiculous to me. The problem that I have with Jesus, is in fact much worse than that. According to the Christian gospels, Jesus said: "If you do not believe me, at least believe in my miracles." Well, that is exactly the part that I do not believe whatsoever.

If a miracle can be fabricated, it will be fabricated.

Therefore, I only believe in miracles that could impossibly have been fabricated.

Unfortunately, not one of Jesus' miracles is of that nature. All his miracles could trivially easily have been fabricated.

How hard would it be to make someone see, who was never blind in the first place? To make him walk, if he was never lame in the first place? To resurrect him, if he was never dead in the first place? The worst so-called miracle of all is about Jesus coming back from the dead. How hard can it be to come back from the dead, if it was not even you who got crucified, and if you never died at the cross in the first place?

Now, let's move on to the next problem; and it is not a small one.

If you do not believe that the Jesus of the Christian gospels performed even one single real miracle, you can only conclude that he was the greatest liar, cheat, and fraud that has ever walked the face of this earth. Seriously, the situation does not leave us any choice. It is either the one or the other. Either you believe in his miracles, or else you automatically believe that he was a crook.

Now, we have arrived at the difficulty with Islam.

The Quran says that Isa, the son of Mary is a prophet. Unfortunately, the Quran does not say what exactly this prophet would have done in his life. The Quran does not describe the life of prophet Isa. Therefore, the Quran may give us the impression that we could refer to the Christian gospels to understand who prophet Isa was, and what he actually said and did. That is disastrous. As I said before, I believe that the man, Jesus, described in the Christian gospels was rather some kind of mafia criminal, and not a prophet at all.

Therefore, the problem has now become one of the Quran itself. Does the Quran really hand out a blank cheque to whoever can successfully fabricate any fake story of the life of prophet Isa?

This is a massive security concern, right in the Quran itself.

Anybody who successfully manages to concoct, through Christian interpolation, the story of a Jesus figure -- a Jesus who even engage in all kinds of questionable behaviour -- will still see his invention promoted to the rank of prophet by the Quran. What security measures did the Quran or Sunnah institute to prevent this kind of fraud?

I am personally convinced that the Jesus person in the Christian gospels was a dangerous criminal, and I am certainly not the only one to believe this. Therefore, I am wary of joining Islam, if Muslims insist to call this man a prophet.

How can we solve this problem?
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AabiruSabeel
06-28-2016, 03:14 AM
Welcome to IslamicBoard and thank you for raising your doubts here.

format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
Now, we have arrived at the difficulty with Islam.

The Quran says that Isa, the son of Mary is a prophet. Unfortunately, the Quran does not say what exactly this prophet would have done in his life. The Quran does not describe the life of prophet Isa. Therefore, the Quran may give us the impression that we could refer to the Christian gospels to understand who prophet Isa was, and what he actually said and did.
This is not true. Allah :swt: describes Prophet 'Isa in the Qur'an with great details. There is an entire chapter named as Maryam (Mary - mother of 'Isa :as:). Please read the following verses from another chapter, Al-Ma'idah, verses 109-120:

109: [Be warned of] the Day when Allah will assemble the messengers and say, "What was the response you received?" They will say, "We have no knowledge. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen"
110: [The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic."

111: And [remember] when I inspired to the disciples, "Believe in Me and in My messenger Jesus." They said, "We have believed, so bear witness that indeed we are Muslims [in submission to Allah ]."

112: [And remember] when the disciples said, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, can your Lord send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven? [Jesus] said," Fear Allah , if you should be believers."
113: They said, "We wish to eat from it and let our hearts be reassured and know that you have been truthful to us and be among its witnesses."
114: Said Jesus, the son of Mary, "O Allah , our Lord, send down to us a table [spread with food] from the heaven to be for us a festival for the first of us and the last of us and a sign from You. And provide for us, and You are the best of providers."
115: Allah said, "Indeed, I will sent it down to you, but whoever disbelieves afterwards from among you - then indeed will I punish him with a punishment by which I have not punished anyone among the worlds."

116: And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
117: I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.
118: If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
119: Allah will say, "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.
120: To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is within them. And He is over all things competent.


And in Chapter Aal-Imraan, verses 35 onwards:

[Mention, O Muhammad], when the wife of 'Imran said, "My Lord, indeed I have pledged to You what is in my womb, consecrated [for Your service], so accept this from me. Indeed, You are the Hearing, the Knowing."
But when she delivered her, she said, "My Lord, I have delivered a female." And Allah was most knowing of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female. And I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her in You and [for] her descendants from Satan, the expelled [from the mercy of Allah ]."
So her Lord accepted her with good acceptance and caused her to grow in a good manner and put her in the care of Zechariah. Every time Zechariah entered upon her in the prayer chamber, he found with her provision. He said, "O Mary, from where is this [coming] to you?" She said, "It is from Allah . Indeed, Allah provides for whom He wills without account."

At that, Zechariah called upon his Lord, saying, "My Lord, grant me from Yourself a good offspring. Indeed, You are the Hearer of supplication."
So the angels called him while he was standing in prayer in the chamber, "Indeed, Allah gives you good tidings of John, confirming a word from Allah and [who will be] honorable, abstaining [from women], and a prophet from among the righteous."
He said, "My Lord, how will I have a boy when I have reached old age and my wife is barren?" The angel said, "Such is Allah ; He does what He wills."
He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He Said, "Your sign is that you will not [be able to] speak to the people for three days except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and exalt [Him with praise] in the evening and the morning."

And when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds.
O Mary, be devoutly obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow [in prayer]."
That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal to you, [O Muhammad]. And you were not with them when they cast their pens as to which of them should be responsible for Mary. Nor were you with them when they disputed.

[And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].
He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous."
She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is.
And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel
And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.
And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.
Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path."

But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].
Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger Jesus, so register us among the witnesses [to truth]."
And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.
And as for those who disbelieved, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers."
But as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards, and Allah does not like the wrongdoers.
This is what We recite to you, [O Muhammad], of [Our] verses and the precise [and wise] message.

Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.
The truth is from your Lord, so do not be among the doubters.
Then whoever argues with you about it after [this] knowledge has come to you - say, "Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then supplicate earnestly [together] and invoke the curse of Allah upon the liars [among us]."
Indeed, this is the true narration. And there is no deity except Allah . And indeed, Allah is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
But if they turn away, then indeed - Allah is Knowing of the corrupters.

http://legacy.quran.com/3/35-62


The miracles performed by 'Isa :as: were true miracles performed by the permission of Allah :swt:.
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eesa the kiwi
06-28-2016, 03:38 AM
quite often christians give this false dillema, ive seen it in their pamphlets
liar, lunatic or lord, and then the pamphlet will show he was not a liar or a lunatic leaving the reader with the false impression that the only option left is option c

this is incorrect and to be frank dishonesty on the part of the christians. there is a fourth option, that indeed he was a noble messenger of god but succeeding generations corrupted his message and falsely claimed he had been elevated to that of god, a statement jesus himself alayhis salam spoke so firmly against

so in your deductions you haave arrived to some correct conclusions but you have also made some errors
yes you are correct that jesus alayhis salm was not divine and was human
but no he wasnt a fraud and the miracles he sent with were truly from Allah to show the truth of his prophethood


islam is to believe that none but the creator is worthy of worship and that muhammed sallaho alayhi wa sallam was the final messenger to mankind

i call you to accept this and inshaallah achieve success in both the worlds and warn youu that if you deny this, you are risking a severe torment in the aakhirah


hoping for a fruitful discussion
esa
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kritikvernunft
06-28-2016, 03:49 AM
You designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic.

Ok, I see. I will not hide the fact that I am not particularly happy with this; but ok, I can see that the Quran says that Allah gave permission for miracles. At the same time, I certainly do not understand why exactly that was supposed to be a good thing. But then again, who are we to question the will of Allah?

My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me? Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills.

Well, that is another thing I am not particularly much a fan of. You see, I will of course drop my opposition to this, but again, only under protest. I certainly do not see the value in giving out that kind of blank cheques. But ok, again, who are we to question the will of Allah?

The Quran is forcing my hand here, and using divine power to overrule my objections. Therefore, I do admit defeat. I am obviously not going to seek conflict with our Master.
I am also not going to oppose Islam, or the Muslims over just this, since we would otherwise pretty much agree on everything else.
In fact, I can live with the idea that these verses are mentioned in the Quran, but I would object to repeating them myself or claiming that I would somehow be a fan of them. Seriously, I am not. Therefore, I wonder how to proceed now?
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06-28-2016, 04:00 AM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

@
kritikvernunft

There are things in the Bible that we as Muslims would not accept. For example, in the Bible, it is said that Noah became drunk after the flood, and such a story we do not attribute to Prophet Noah alayhis salaam (peace be upon him).

So, we accept the stories of Prophet Jesus alayhis salaam (peace be upon him) that are true and reject the ones that are false or fabricated. We do believe that Prophet Jesus alayhis salaam (peace be upon him) was given the power to heal the leper and blind and resurrect the dead with the permission of Allah. However, with any miracles, they were given for a specific reason and that was to prove to the Israelite community that they had strayed from the path of Allah by knowing the rule of law yet foregoing mercy and clemency and leniency in its application and also injustices the community perpetrated and thinking themselves above the sin and sinful with more brain-knowledge than heart-knowledge.

There is no reason to be wary of Islam for this reason. Neither you nor I were there when Prophet Jesus alayhis salaam (peace be upon him) was alive. You already believe that God cannot have human children, which means you already believe in the One God. If you then believe in Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasallam (peace and blessings be upon him), I'd say you're already a Muslim and would simply need to correct your belief to align with the understanding that God can do anything He pleases, including choosing and permitting Prophet Jesus alayhis salaam (peace be upon him) to perform specific miracles.

For example, say I am a teacher and I have a reputation of giving hard exams that only some pass but even those that pass never getting A+, and yet I can choose to give one of my students all the answers to my hardest exam and the answer to an extra credit question on the exam. Obviously, if I do so, the student will have all the information on how to perform the "miracle" of passing the exam with the A+. If the student does so, this will be considered by others a miraculous feat. And yet as a teacher how hard is it for me to get the student to perform the "miracle" of passing when it is my will and choice that dictated it so? In the same way, Allah can choose any human being to perform a miracle, but at the same time, the miracle is really of Allah's and only to the untutored eye does it seem to belong to the human being.

Also, if you think about this, we're really discussing about the realm of the unseen. If you doubt on Prophet Jesus alayhis salaam (peace be upon him), what about Prophet Solomon alayhis salaam (peace be upon him)? I could come to you and make the same claim as anyone can claim to be talking to animals and not be questioned since the others wouldn't know one way or another, and yet we believe in him as a prophet. Why? Because God can choose to give any type of miracle to anyone, and it only means that God is All-Powerful.
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Search
06-28-2016, 04:08 AM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
Therefore, I wonder how to proceed now?
Well, you could start living as a Muslim - we're in the blessed last 10 Shahru Ramadan right now and you can try keeping a fast or two if you're inclined?

If you pretty much agree on everything else, I'd say you should simply ask God to give you guidance and the correct understanding of the man we know as Jesus in the Bible. That makes sense, right? If we have questions about something about which only God has knowledge, we should ask God to give us guidance and knowledge on that matter.

Welcome to IB, btw!

Wishing you much awesomeness,
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kritikvernunft
06-28-2016, 04:43 AM
We do believe that Prophet Jesus alayhis salaam (peace be upon him) was given the power to heal the leper and blind and resurrect the dead with the permission of Allah.
Yes. I am not opposing this view, not because I would believe it, but because it is mentioned in the Quran, and I do not wish to oppose the Quran. There would simply be no value in doing that. Any such "cure" would be several orders of magnitude worse than the "disease".

My core religious belief is: In God we trust and in nothing else. Therefore, I certainly and absolutely trust in God, but I do not necessarily trust what other people claim about God, simply because they are not God themselves. Therefore, I reasonably expect any claim about God to possibly have issues. In other words, I do not certainly or absolutely trust other people, since that would even be contrary to my core belief. I live in total trust in our Master, and with varying levels of distrust in everything else. I like it that way, and it suits me absolutely fine, and I will never change it.

Islam is much more a political option to me -- mostly compatible with my own core religious belief -- than anything else. I personally think that it will either be with the Muslims, or else we are toast.

with more brain-knowledge than heart-knowledge.
Well, I am possibly indeed hyper-rational. But then again, I just like it that way. I feel the most comfortable like that. In God I trust, and I view everything else with suspicion. So, it is true, I do not believe, unless it is God, who is our Master. But then again, I drop the opposition about Jesus and Mary mostly for political reasons, and not necessarily for religious ones. Does God wants me to believe it? Possibly. I will certainly not know in this lifetime, and it is undoubtedly the first question that I will ask in the next one. At the moment, dropping opposition to Jesus and Mary just looks like the price tag for getting along with the Muslims. Therefore, ok, let's pay that price. It is not even such a high price. It mostly means that Islam can more easily be re-purposed for unduly lending credibility to Christian fabrications. It makes it a bit harder to debunk Christian fabrications, but ok, it does not make it impossible altogether.

In the meanwhile, Christianity and its fabrications have most spectacularly spawned all kinds of virulent ideological movements that do not just debunk Jesus and Mary, but even God himself. That is obviously one bridge too far. They now relegate the concept of God himself to the status of fabrication. It is hard to defend against that, if you are also supposed to defend things like "miracles".

There is no reason to be wary of Islam for this reason.
Well, it is a bit the other way around. The only reason why the unbelievers have not been able to force and impose their views onto me, is because they would have to do that with the Muslims first, which would be a feat that is not particularly easy to achieve. So, seen from my situation, Islam protects me against all kinds of problems, regardless of whether I join it or not. Therefore, even if I do not join, I will at least sympathize, and openly acknowledge the benefits that it brings to me.

need to correct your belief to align with the understanding that God can do anything He pleases, including choosing and permitting Prophet Jesus alayhis salaam (peace be upon him) to perform specific miracles.
Of course, our Master can do anything he pleases. However, there seems to be quite a bit of logic in what he does. Whenever someone tells me that he saw our Master overruling his own logic, that he otherwise never overrules, I hope that you understand why I am so skeptical. You see, the issue is not whether I believe in God or not -- I do -- but whether I believe what other people say about God -- I often don't.

it only means that God is All-Powerful.
If our Master arbitrarily and randomly did whatever anybody could liberally imagine, the universe would not be the one we can now see around us. It would be another universe, while the universe that you can see around us, is obviously the universe that our Master wanted. It may, however, not be the universe that particular other people want, but that does not matter to me, because I do not care what universe other people would want. It is simply not their call.
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kritikvernunft
06-28-2016, 05:03 AM
Well, you could start living as a Muslim - we're in the blessed last 10 Shahru Ramadan right now and you can try keeping a fast or two if you're inclined?
I am certainly interested. The only problem is that nobody around me is fasting. So, I would be fasting alone, while everybody else would be eating. So, if I want to "naturally" do these things, I should try to surround myself with people who also do that. Up till now, it has been a disaster to find like-minded people in the physical world around me.

I somehow sense that local Muslims distrust non-Muslims here. I think that they are actually quite right about that, but it does not help me particularly much either. So, I am in the market to join up with Muslims -- preferably a bit intellectual people like in this forum. I have been in the market for that quite a while actually. I have never managed to book any success in that field, however.

If you pretty much agree on everything else, I'd say you should simply ask God to give you guidance and the correct understanding of the man we know as Jesus in the Bible. That makes sense, right? If we have questions about something about which only God has knowledge, we should ask God to give us guidance and knowledge on that matter.
I am perfectly ok with the idea to let the question about Jesus and Mary unanswered in this life. I think that I should just leave the question open and deal with the answer to that question in the next life. The answer to this question is absolutely not essential to anything in this life. It does not affect the Law in any way. It does not detract from our goals in any way either. In fact, thinking of it, why would this question even be relevant in this life? I will just ignore it and move on with things that are obviously more important.
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Eric H
06-28-2016, 05:36 AM
Greetings and peace be with you kritikvernunft; and welcome to the forum,

In God we trust and in nothing else
But do you trust in God? In order to trust in God, you have to do something, you have to be prepared to change yourself.

In God we trust and in nothing else
In my opinion, God's biggest miracle is the creation of the universe and the creation of life from no life. All of the miracles Jesus performed are all very minor by comparison to creation. Why would you doubt God has the power? If God wanted to prove something to the people of the day, then what better sign than a few miracles.

Only when you start to embrace these beliefs willingly, will you start to change yourself. God, Allah gave us Holy Books to instruct the generations to come.

Life is a journey always one day at a time, yesterday is history, tomorrow is a great mystery, help me live this day and every day knowing that you hold me in the palm of your hand.

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric
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kritikvernunft
06-28-2016, 08:34 AM
But do you trust in God?
Yes, I trust only in God.

I treat everything else with varying degrees of suspicion.

In order to trust in God, you have to do something, you have to be prepared to change yourself.
Just like he will call back everybody else too, he will obviously call me back too. I just hope that God will have time for a few questions by then; questions that I have been saving up ...
I do not know if there are things that I do wrong and that will backfire on the last day. It will certainly not be obvious or intentional violations of God's law.

Why would you doubt God has the power?
God obviously has that power, but everybody can also clearly see that he does not routinely use his power in that way. Therefore, I am quite skeptical when someone tells me that God just did. I would somehow rather suspect that there is something else going on in that case ...
Reply

eesa the kiwi
06-28-2016, 09:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
Yes, I trust only in God.

I treat everything else with varying degrees of suspicion.



Just like he will call back everybody else too, he will obviously call me back too. I just hope that God will have time for a few questions by then; questions that I have been saving up ...
I do not know if there are things that I do wrong and that will backfire on the last day. It will certainly not be obvious or intentional violations of God's law.



God obviously has that power, but everybody can also clearly see that he does not routinely use his power in that way. Therefore, I am quite skeptical when someone tells me that God just did. I would somehow rather suspect that there is something else going on in that case ...

bismillah

brother im going to link you to a site i found very good when i was new to islam. they have a bunch of good articles alhamdulilah that inshaallah will give you a basic overview of what islam is about. inshaallah you will find this useful, highly recomend for you to have a look
www.islamreligion.com

also brother its good you trust god, i respect that a lot mashaallah but there is something you need to be doing besides trust
prayer, a muslim prays for guidance over 17 times a day, its an integral part of our salah
you need to be praying for guidance. subhannallah we cant go even for a second without our creators helps and support. say "oh my creator guide me to the religion you are pleased with"

be sincere and inshaallah it will be answered but you have to be sincere
alhamdulilah you believe god is one and has no partners so you have the basic foundation of success in this life and the next so thank your creator for the guidance he has already shown you

you are so close bro, keep praying and inshaallah you will be shown the way
May Allah guide us all to siratul mustaqim (the straight path) and save us from being among those upon whom is his anger and among those who have been sent astray ameen
Reply

YusufNoor
06-28-2016, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
I was originally born into Christianity, into the Holy Apostolic Church. I have never really told anybody there that I was leaving. So, I may still be considered a member in ways.

However, I do not think that anybody would call my views Christian.

For a starters, I do not believe that God would have human relatives, or human children, or a son or so. This very idea sounds absolutely ridiculous to me. The problem that I have with Jesus, is in fact much worse than that. According to the Christian gospels, Jesus said: "If you do not believe me, at least believe in my miracles." Well, that is exactly the part that I do not believe whatsoever.

If a miracle can be fabricated, it will be fabricated.

Therefore, I only believe in miracles that could impossibly have been fabricated.

Unfortunately, not one of Jesus' miracles is of that nature. All his miracles could trivially easily have been fabricated.

How hard would it be to make someone see, who was never blind in the first place? To make him walk, if he was never lame in the first place? To resurrect him, if he was never dead in the first place? The worst so-called miracle of all is about Jesus coming back from the dead. How hard can it be to come back from the dead, if it was not even you who got crucified, and if you never died at the cross in the first place?

Now, let's move on to the next problem; and it is not a small one.

If you do not believe that the Jesus of the Christian gospels performed even one single real miracle, you can only conclude that he was the greatest liar, cheat, and fraud that has ever walked the face of this earth. Seriously, the situation does not leave us any choice. It is either the one or the other. Either you believe in his miracles, or else you automatically believe that he was a crook.

Now, we have arrived at the difficulty with Islam.

The Quran says that Isa, the son of Mary is a prophet. Unfortunately, the Quran does not say what exactly this prophet would have done in his life. The Quran does not describe the life of prophet Isa. Therefore, the Quran may give us the impression that we could refer to the Christian gospels to understand who prophet Isa was, and what he actually said and did. That is disastrous. As I said before, I believe that the man, Jesus, described in the Christian gospels was rather some kind of mafia criminal, and not a prophet at all.

Therefore, the problem has now become one of the Quran itself. Does the Quran really hand out a blank cheque to whoever can successfully fabricate any fake story of the life of prophet Isa?

This is a massive security concern, right in the Quran itself.

Anybody who successfully manages to concoct, through Christian interpolation, the story of a Jesus figure -- a Jesus who even engage in all kinds of questionable behaviour -- will still see his invention promoted to the rank of prophet by the Quran. What security measures did the Quran or Sunnah institute to prevent this kind of fraud?

I am personally convinced that the Jesus person in the Christian gospels was a dangerous criminal, and I am certainly not the only one to believe this. Therefore, I am wary of joining Islam, if Muslims insist to call this man a prophet.

How can we solve this problem?
hi K,

thanks for the questions! we DO believe that Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam was able to heal people. in fact, there were lots of healers at that time and Jesus thus showed that he was among the best!

that all gets into the question of mind over matter, because the "false" prophets could heal people too! how do you explain that?

we do NOT accept the gospels as gospel! this, we agree with:

Mark 12:

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’
31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

one of the reasons the Qur'an is silent on some things of the other prophets is that we don't need to know!

the most important part is tawheed, the Oneness of Allah. you are on the right track! you wrote:

I do not believe that God would have human relatives, or human children, or a son or so. This very idea sounds absolutely ridiculous to me

THAT is part of Tawheed. learning about Prophets is secondary Tawheed comes first. for English speakers, anything by Dr Abu Aminah Bilal Philips is you best source (stay away from Anwar Al Awlaki). give these a shot:



i highly recommend his books, all of them!

May Allah guide us all to the straight path!

ma salaama
Reply

Scimitar
06-28-2016, 07:20 PM
WHAT IF MIRACLES CAN BE FAKED????

I debunk this with a simple logic:

How can one fake a new born child speaking from the cradle??? See OP - that one isn't in the bible - it's solely in the Qur'an - and it refers to Jesus pbuh speaking up for his mother Mary when she was commanded to take a vow of silence. Jesus, was still a baby, and he spoke - defending his mother and notified the rabbis that he was the mssiah - they were gob smacked. Literally. This was Jesus' first miracle.

This miracle??? NOT IN THE BIBLE - IN QUR'AN only... demonstrating that this MIRACLE cannot be faked and thus - the others followed a suit which also show that the "I believe they were faked" logic doesn't work...
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Scimitar
06-28-2016, 07:50 PM
But to answer the question:

What would a Muslim make of the way I see things?

Very one dimensional, you do your intellect no justice. We'll find out which in good time :D

Scimi

EDIT: I eat my own words, and stand corrected Allahu Akbar
Reply

Eric H
06-28-2016, 08:09 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Timi Scar;

I'm leaving this place, what a let down.
There's a vacancy for a prime minister and an England football manager, you could do both those jobs on a Monday morning, and have the rest of the week to post here, so please don't go.

Just a thought, a man of your means needs a challenge.:D
Reply

Scimitar
06-28-2016, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Timi Scar;
And the peace upon you too my cousin in faith,

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
There's a vacancy for a prime minister and an England football manager, you could do both those jobs on a Monday morning, and have the rest of the week to post here, so please don't go.
It's tempting, :D

I'd call it, the Shepherd party,

I'd lead the sheep right over the proverbial cliff too, where the ships are waiting by the white cliffs of Dover - and from there we'd travel the "old fashioned way" to sunnier climes.

Al Idrisi in his tabulus rogeriana described England as a nation "perpetually shrouded in cloud" boy was he right!!!

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Just a thought, a man of your means needs a challenge.:D
I'd prefer to take a holiday, and actually learn to sleep at night for once in nine years, but you know - old habits die hard. All that jazz. Meh.

If it wasn't for members such as yourself, I'd have left ages ago. Speaking of which, some of the "Old Guard" don't post anymore... they moved on, and i'm caught between that proverbial rock and hard place.

Scimi
Reply

kritikvernunft
06-29-2016, 03:58 AM
we DO believe that Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam was able to heal people.
I am willing to compromise here, and drop my opposition to Jesus and Mary, because I do not want to go against the Quran nor against the Muslims. Therefore, I relegate the answer to this question to the next life. I will leave the question unanswered in this one.
that all gets into the question of mind over matter, because the "false" prophets could heal people too! how do you explain that?
Because in God I trust and in nothing else. How hard would it be to secretly attack someone with some poison, and then heal him, by providing him with the antidote. This person will now be healed and he will now believe in you. I will still not believe in such person, because that person is not God, while in God we trust and in nothing else.
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Yes, true, everything else -- that is not God -- must be treated with varying degrees of suspicion.
31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”
Yes, you may love your neighbour, but I will still view him with varying degrees of suspicion.
Therefore, I may somehow love him, but certainly not trust him, because in God we trust, and in nothing else.

I will also not love all neighbours equally.

"This sermon was delivered on the Ninth Day of Dhul Hijjah 10 A.H.
in the 'Uranah valley of Mount Arafat' (in Mecca).

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by his greater obedience to the laws of god and his good works."

Therefore, ceteris paribus, I love neighbours in proportion to their obedience of the laws of God. Furthermore, love is a variable that can be mapped in a consistent way on a continuous domain that includes negative values. Therefore, it is perfectly possible and even consistent to extend negative values of love to particular neighbours. It would still be "love" in a sense.

But then again, I am in no way bound by what Mark writes. As a matter of general policy, I actually reprobate all of his writings, including his Gospel.
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Scimitar
06-29-2016, 12:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
I am willing to compromise here, and drop my opposition to Jesus and Mary, because I do not want to go against the Quran nor against the Muslims. Therefore, I relegate the answer to this question to the next life. I will leave the question unanswered in this one.....
Come on fella, I just showed you how the Qur'an contains an example of a "miracle of Jesus" while he was a baby - which you cannot say was faked.

How plead ye?

Scimi
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kritikvernunft
06-29-2016, 01:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Timi Scar
Come on fella, I just showed you how the Qur'an contains an example of a "miracle of Jesus" while he was a baby - which you cannot say was faked.
As I have clarified already, for political reasons, I have dropped opposition against miracles mentioned in the Quran, and relegated the question to the next life, where and when I hope to become informed what all of the needless miraculating was supposed to be about. In the meanwhile, I think there is no point to argue over this. There is no compulsion in religion, and everybody obviously believe what they want.
Reply

Scimitar
06-29-2016, 01:36 PM
fair enough.

You are right, there is no compulsion in religion... but I do wonder, when you quote Qur'an like this and agree with it - agree with "there is only one God" and seem to be unclear regarding the prophethood of Muhammad pbuh, how close are you (on your own terms) to Islam? Your natural state gravitates towards Islam I feel, from what you have shared here.

No one here will try to convert you though.

Only God guides,

May God guide you, Ameen

Scimi
Reply

M.I.A.
06-29-2016, 04:22 PM
How hard would it be to make someone see, who was never blind in the first place? To make him walk, if he was never lame in the first place? To resurrect him, if he was never dead in the first place? The worst so-called miracle of all is about Jesus coming back from the dead. How hard can it be to come back from the dead, if it was not even you who got crucified, and if you never died at the cross in the first place?

Lol seen a kid that was born with a slight scar on his head. It was shown and covered by hand and not conversation..

Better to keep it that way.

Although that is food for some.

Seen a family of children that couldn't walk, it's been a decade or two and now they do.

:/ ...I wouldn't rule out anything.

Except those that really would eat you alive.

It's a learning experience.
Reply

kritikvernunft
06-29-2016, 05:09 PM
seem to be unclear regarding the prophethood of Muhammad pbuh
Actually, I am not unclear at all on this matter. Muhammed, may he rest in peace, is a very useful prophet of God. I have never rejected his prophethood. On the contrary, his prophethood was clearly necessary to set a number of issues straight. However, my personal style if to avoid mentioning human beings too often in religion. I seriously prefer to mention the Quran than Muhammed. As you know, people can easily exceed the limits of their religion when mentioning persons. Therefore, I am definitely not a fan of that practice. There is no danger in mentioning the One God in religion. It is pretty much the only concept in the universe that is practically impossible to subvert or re-purpose for deception. Furthermore, I generally refuse to talk about prophet Muhammed with pagans. The pagans easily say blasphemous things about Muhammed or even "Allah". They seem to enjoy attacking that particular name of God, actually. So, I have learned not to use it too often, because it may trigger ugly pagan retorts. But then again, if I became so attracted to Islam, this is not in spite of the pagans not liking it, but rather because of the pagans not liking it. They don't like Islam. So, I like it. They more they do not like it, the more I do. Islam is probably just another anti-pagan tool in my arsenal. I really, really do not like the pagans. I repudiate them. I denounce them. The pagans and me will never get along. That would just be impossible. Anti-paganism is certainly one of my favourite hobbies, not even necessarily related to Islam.
Reply

Scimitar
06-29-2016, 09:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
Actually, I am not unclear at all on this matter. Muhammed, may he rest in peace, is a very useful prophet of God. I have never rejected his prophethood. On the contrary, his prophethood was clearly necessary to set a number of issues straight. However, my personal style if to avoid mentioning human beings too often in religion. I seriously prefer to mention the Quran than Muhammed. As you know, people can easily exceed the limits of their religion when mentioning persons. Therefore, I am definitely not a fan of that practice. There is no danger in mentioning the One God in religion. It is pretty much the only concept in the universe that is practically impossible to subvert or re-purpose for deception. Furthermore, I generally refuse to talk about prophet Muhammed with pagans. The pagans easily say blasphemous things about Muhammed or even "Allah". They seem to enjoy attacking that particular name of God, actually. So, I have learned not to use it too often, because it may trigger ugly pagan retorts. But then again, if I became so attracted to Islam, this is not in spite of the pagans not liking it, but rather because of the pagans not liking it. They don't like Islam. So, I like it. They more they do not like it, the more I do. Islam is probably just another anti-pagan tool in my arsenal. I really, really do not like the pagans. I repudiate them. I denounce them. The pagans and me will never get along. That would just be impossible. Anti-paganism is certainly one of my favourite hobbies, not even necessarily related to Islam.
SO what religion do you identify with?

It seems you have taken the long way round to actually making the declaration of faith in Islam.

I declare : There is no deity worth worship except for the One God (Al-Lah) and Muhammad is the servant messenger of God.

This is the declaration in English, and this is what you agree with.

I'm just curious, as to which religion you identify with when you:

1) recognise there is only One God
2) that Muhammad is the servant and messenger of God.

To me, you spell Muslim, but what do you think?

Scimi
Reply

kritikvernunft
06-30-2016, 12:36 AM
SO what religion do you identify with?
Obviously, Islam is absolutely the closest to what I personally believe.
If the Islamic religion did not exist, we would have to invent it.
It seems you have taken the long way round to actually making the declaration of faith in Islam.
I first made up my mind as to what I believe, and then I more or less matched it with an existing religion. So, yes, it probably sounds like a detour! ;-)
I declare : There is no deity worth worship except for the One God (Al-Lah) and Muhammad is the servant messenger of God. This is the declaration in English, and this is what you agree with.
Of course, it is better to stick to a standard, official declaration.

However, what I personally think, in order to avoid mentioning persons in religion, I'd rather claim:

There is no deity worthy of worship except for the One God (Al-Lah) and the Quran is his Law.

Ultimately, religion is and will always remain a Law, that is, a list of forbidden behaviours. Being a believer means that you agree to refrain from engaging in such forbidden behaviours. So, yes, I accept the Allah's Law, if only because of the benefits of doing that: there is just one legitimate lawmaker, who is Allah. That clearly means that all other lawmakers are not legitimate. You can imagine that this doctrine suits me absolutely fine. Indeed, how many additional lawmakers next to or above Allah could we ever need, before all our needs for such additional lawmakers next to or above Allah would entirely be satisfied? Therefore, we of course need Allah as exclusive lawmaker, because that allows us to happily reject all other candidate lawmakers. In other words, Islam is not just a religion. It is also a powerful political instrument. I can happily see around me that I am not the only person insisting that other lawmakers than Allah are not legitimate.
I'm just curious, as to which religion you identify with when you:
1) recognise there is only One God
2) that Muhammad is the servant and messenger of God.
To me, you spell Muslim, but what do you think?
Yes, of course. Islam is absolutely the closest to what I really believe, that is, my non-official declaration:

[1] In the One God we trust and in nothing else. Everything else must therefore be treated with varying levels of suspicion.
[2] To the Quranic and Sunnah Laws of the One God we obey. We must ultimately always seek to repudiate laws from all possible other sources.

Since it is clearly possible to use the official declaration to achieve the unofficial one, I am more than happy with Islam, the Islamic community, and its official declaration. You see, when the Muslims defend the official declaration, they are obviously also busy protecting my unofficial one. Therefore, I will never say that all of this is not nicely useful. As I have mentioned before, if the Islamic religion did not exist, we would obviously have to invent it.
Reply

Scimitar
06-30-2016, 01:29 AM
I did not wish to proselytize, I was just genuinely curious...

...now with this out of the way. I do wonder how long it will take you before you, yourself, of your own accord and will, to decide to say the official shahadah.

Sooner or later, I believe it may just happen, And God knows best.

God bless and guide you, Ameen.

Scimi
Reply

kritikvernunft
06-30-2016, 02:04 AM
I do wonder how long it will take you before you, yourself, of your own accord and will, to decide to say the official shahadah.
Of course, I am ok with the official shahada. I have actually just said it, but you cannot hear that from where you are sitting! ;-)
Ashadu Allah illah aha, il-Allah, ana Mohamedan rasul Allah.

As you can imagine, I would not object to saying the shahada, if only for political reasons. Why would I want to go it alone? It would not make much sense, would it? ;-)
Reply

AabiruSabeel
06-30-2016, 02:12 AM
I highly recommend you to go through these two threads:

http://www.islamicboard.com/hadith/2...nah-islam.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/hadith/1...tml#post328450


They are a long read but very important to understand.
Reply

Scimitar
06-30-2016, 02:25 AM
Well, I must admit, I'm quite pleased with your embracing Islam the way you have. Some will advice that you must now do this and do that and so on so forth, but take it slow. Don't over burden yourself with learning everything at once - but do intend to learn as you go :)

The shahadah is traditionally taken with two Muslim witnesses present.

Ash hadu Allah ilaaha illallaahu wa ash-hadu anna Muhammadan abduhu-wa-rasoolullaah!

I bear witness that there is only Allah (one God), and Muhammad is the servant and messenger of Allah.


Welcome to the largest extended family network in the world :) if you have any questions, issues, fears, or objections - do let us know bro.

We are here to help.

If you would like, I can send you out a New Muslim Pack which would include items to facilitate your understanding of Islam further (get in touch via PM when you have made 25 posts). Or you can request one here: http://www.newmuslimsproject.net/ind...&Itemid=200141

In fact there are quite a number of Muslim websites which do give away New Muslim Packs, for new reverts to Islam.

By the way, when you do Shahadah, all your previous sins are wiped from your record, you are reborn without sin - and all your good deeds remain on your record - like this, you stand better than I as I currently do. Amazing.

Allahu Akbar.

Scimi
Reply

Scimitar
06-30-2016, 02:37 AM
There are some cases when I love to be proven wrong, this is one of those :)

I'm very surprised and happy at the same time :) For a guy who doesn't like surprises, this has totally thrown me in a very pleasant way,

I edited my post on the previous page and ate my words.

Scimi
Reply

kritikvernunft
06-30-2016, 04:09 AM
There are some cases when I love to be proven wrong, this is one of those :) I'm very surprised and happy at the same time :) For a guy who doesn't like surprises, this has totally thrown me in a very pleasant way, I edited my post on the previous page and ate my words.
The funny thing is that when I tell to other people my views and opinions, especially to non-Muslims, they trivially easily adopt them and even repeat them. At the same time, most Muslims that I speak with, will just consider my ideas indeed a rather Islamic way of seeing things -- so they already more or less think like that themselves -- even though they will often also say that I have a strange way of expressing things.

To that extent, I may sometimes express and paraphrase Islamic views in an unexpected way.

I perfectly-well accept that quite a few people are confused when they hear me.

I sound hyper-rational. I probably am. Hyper-rationality, however, is something that people will more associate with atheism than with religion. So, it may indeed sound strange when someone is religious in a hyper-rational way.

You see, rationality does not represent obedience or disobedience to our Master, the illustrious Allah. It is not possible to qualify someone rational, solely on those grounds as being obedient or disobedient to his celestial majesty, our very beloved God. It cannot be understood as a statement of belief or disbelief in God. It is entirely unrelated. It is just a personality trait. It really does not say anything about someone's faith in our Master. My personality may be hyper-rational, but why would that automatically make me a lesser servant of the Almighty? Why would faith be the monopoly of people who are naturally attracted to mysticism?

I also consider emotions something to be for a man to strictly control. Women are perfectly well allowed to show emotions in public, but as a man, I am actually not keen on doing that. That does not mean that I would have no emotions at all, but only that I prefer to strictly control them in public. That is another personality trait that people may confuse with lack of faith. Refraining from being emotional in public, does not mean that someone would be a lesser servant of our beloved master, the illustrious Allah. Therefore, yes, I am religious, but quite a bit in my own way, which is the result of personality traits and certainly not of lack of faith.

In terms of practical implementation and rollout of Islam, I am badly stuck on the fact that I cannot easily find the same crowd that you can find here -- literate and intellectual Muslims -- in the territorial area where I live, Phnom Penh, Cambodia.

Over 10 years ago, I decided to leave Europe and move here, mostly because it is so trivially easy to get a visa here to stay for as long as you want. At the same time, the local government does not interfere here with what you do. If you pay your yearly visa, they will leave you alone. That is what I was looking for the most. In that respect, Cambodia is a fantastic country. No government trying to regulate every aspect of your life or trying to get you to do things that you don't want. They really let you be and leave you alone. What other country is there like that? Hard to find ...

Concerning Islam, I would have picked Malaysia or Indonesia instead, if their visa regimes had allowed it, but the administrative context in these countries is totally unusable for my purposes.

So, I find myself here in the middle of Buddhist territory, with most Cambodians being not particularly literate or intellectual either, and barely speaking English, while Muslims are few and far between, basically unfindable. So, that's not good for rolling out Islam or doing additional implementations, such as doing a ramadan implementation, or things like that.

I would consider moving elsewhere, but most countries that I know of have obnoxious visa regimes for foreigners. So, I am probably going be forced to make do with Cambodia, but that is not a good location for all things Islam. I would love to find a country with a more Islamic population, and a sufficiently liberal visa regime, but I am afraid that this will not materialize any time soon.

So, we are sitting on a practical problem "in the real world" with all kinds of obstacles and impediments. It means that in all practical terms, I am trying to painstakingly roll out things by myself here. So, that pretty much limits all of it to internet forum memberships and writing posts and remarks online without ever really meeting like-minded people "in the real world".
Reply

Scimitar
06-30-2016, 04:25 AM
That was quite interesting and insightful to read. Thumbs up.

I find Islam to be the most rational way of life/religion in the world. When I read the Qur'an, I find that Allah is asking us to question may things, everything, and to use our God given faculties of reason, logic, rationality etc all the good stuff to help us in order to find the middle path. I feel you are naturally inclined to Islam, it's your natural state - or what is known as "fitra" in Arabic.

For now though, as a Londoner who is trying to find his sleeping pattern and failing, I must sign out.

Hopefully we can chat again tomorrow in sha Allah, but for the meantime, I'd like to leave you this: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ncept-god.html

God bless you bro, and take care.

Scimi
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fschmidt
07-01-2016, 02:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Timi Scar
I declare : There is no deity worth worship except for the One God (Al-Lah) and Muhammad is the servant messenger of God.
I just want to comment that one can agree with this without being Muslim. For example, I agree with this statement, but I consider Muhammed to be a messenger of God for Muslims, but not a messenger for me. I believe that different messengers of God were meant for different kinds of people.
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Scimitar
07-01-2016, 02:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt
I just want to comment that one can agree with this without being Muslim. For example, I agree with this statement, but I consider Muhammed to be a messenger of God for Muslims, but not a messenger for me. I believe that different messengers of God were meant for different kinds of people.
i'd like to hear why.

Scimi
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fschmidt
07-01-2016, 02:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Timi Scar
i'd like to hear why.
If God only needed one messenger, then God would have only sent one messenger. Otherwise it is like God made a mistake with all the other messengers, and that doesn't make sense.

Why does God need multiple messengers? Because different kinds of people respond to different kinds of messages. Some people relate very well to the Quran, but I relate more to the Old Testament. The short version of each religion/message is that Islam is about submission to God, Christianity is about faith in a particular interpretation of God, and the Old Testament is about wrestling with God which means questioning everything until one finds one's way to God. (Judaism is none of these, it is submission to the rabbis.)
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Scimitar
07-01-2016, 03:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt
If God only needed one messenger, then God would have only sent one messenger. Otherwise it is like God made a mistake with all the other messengers, and that doesn't make sense.
ok, I can answer this in sha Allah.

format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt
Why does God need multiple messengers? Because different kinds of people respond to different kinds of messages. Some people relate very well to the Quran, but I relate more to the Old Testament. The short version of each religion/message is that Islam is about submission to God, Christianity is about faith in a particular interpretation of God, and the Old Testament is about wrestling with God which means questioning everything until one finds one's way to God. (Judaism is none of these, it is submission to the rabbis.)
Your premise is this:

God sent messengers to many communities and thus, He is faulty - and if God was perfect then He would in His infinite wisdom, send only one messenger. For all people's.

My answer:

God did indeed send messengers to many communities, a messenger from their own people... let's take the example of the Old Testament Prophets and Messenger's shall we?

How many Prophets and Messengers did the Children of Israel kill, exile or ridicule in the worst ways? Quite a few right? Was it the Messengers who were at fault? or the people they were sent to for disobeying God's messengers, and worse - killing them, exiling them, etc?

The Children of Israel were at fault.

How about Jesus pbuh? Was he not only sent to the lost sheep of Israel? And how did they treat him? They tried to crucify him, but God raised him to HIMSELF this is when the covenant was broken... the final straw... God takes away the land of the Israelites who were descended from Abraham pbuh and gave the covenant to their brethren, from the line of the first born of Abraham, Ishmael pbuh - through his descendant, Muhammad pbuh.

Up to this point, where Jesus was sent - God had promised the Israelites that HE will continue to bless them and give them prophets and messengers to keep them guided but with the children of Israel wanting to kill the Messiah they were awaiting, Jesus pbuh, they'd totally rejected God's promise and covenant and this was the final straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. Hence, it was time to make HIS word heard all over the world.

Enter the descendant of Ishmael, pbuh, - Muhammad pbuh - who was sent as a mercy to mankind, and not just a people - tasked with ensuring the measures were put in place to get the true creed of the Abrahamic tradition to the four cardinal corners of the planet - and this is exactly what happened.

So when you claim God made a mistake - I would have you understand that God makes no mistakes but repeatedly gave the children of Israel chances over and over again to keep the covenant intact - which they failed in doing. This covenant had to pass - onto the descendant from Abrahams lineage through Ishmael his first born son - and thus we see the promise fruit all over the world today.

Christianity of today is a Pauline invention as the disciples of Jesus pbuh were hunted down by the very same Paul who was a mercenary hired to hunt down those early companions of Jesus pbuh until they were either exiled from the holy land by themselves for their own safety or killed in the process by the long arm of the Judeo-Roman establishment of the period.

Christianity thus, never saw a gospel of Jesus in any written form, but was an oral tradition which became extinct and thus the four authors of the New Testament - Matthew, Mark Luke, John are marked with an X after their name as no one knows who these men were in history... I ask you, would you believe in a text book authored by someone who didn't leave you his last name?

As for the Torah, it was once a complete work, but the Torah disappeared and was no longer a circulated holy work when the children of Israel were in bondage in babylon... it wasn't until one Prophet had to re-form it from memory without no one to check his accuracy of statements made within - came to pass and Jesus pbuh came to recorrect the corruptions the children of Israel had entered into it or the laws they removed from it - that Torah is still very much in use today as corrupt as it is... it still allows the children of Israel to commit usury on other peoples and even their own - a grave sin.

Why all these corruptions, you ask? well did God ever say He will preserve their holy books? NO. He didn't say so in the OT, nor did he mention it in the NT...

...Yet, the Qur'an which is a guidance for all of mankind contains this verse:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). - 15:9, Qur'an.

And more than 14 centuries have passed and not a single letter has been added, removed or changed in it. Islam has spread to all nations and the theology sound, One God - worship HIM alone - ascribe no partners to HIM...

Whereas with Christianity, varying theologies by which any Christian can, if they choose to, interpret it as they wish... and with NT's with books added, removed and a lot more besides, as well the fact that the four attributed authors of it, are mysteries in history...

...The Torah, corrupted due to the greed of the rabbi's.

But only the Qur'an remains intact, audibly recited to heart by millions of Muslims around the globe.

The Prophet pbuh last sermon specifically addresses the issues of racism and makes this a thing of the past as no nation, no race no creed is to be left out of the fold of Islam should they choose to embrace it - this is for all of humanity, and as such we find it is the fastest growing faith in the world - as God intended.

Soon, very soon the numbers of Muslims will swell to beyond what any faith has ever seen before in the history of mankind and that is the promise of the revelation. Despite the Wests attack on the middle east where millions of Muslims have been murdered in cold blood.

I have just demonstrated to you how your ideas about religion were half correct and then gave you the contextual dissemination of historical and religious nuances which led us to this point in order to prove to you that your ideas were only half wrong because they were OOT.

Scimi
Reply

kritikvernunft
07-01-2016, 04:41 AM
For example, I agree with this statement, but I consider Muhammed to be a messenger of God for Muslims, but not a messenger for me.
Islam is a concrete practical instantiation of the abstract concept of religion. At the abstract level, of meta-theology, I just liberally theorize too. Everything at the level of meta-religion is just a mathematical object, totally divorced from the real world. Then, yes, I also propose statements and then investigate their consistency, and then I share my findings with other people.

In the real world, you have real religions, and not just abstract meta-theological concepts.

In the real world, a real religion will be judged by its actual, practical usefulness.

Islam has managed to congregate 1.5+ billion followers, many of whom are staunch believers. This is a feat.
The power that emanates from the practical, concrete real-world scripture of the Quran, is also quite spectacular.
Prophet Muhammed, may he rest in peace, has managed to really pull it off in the real world, regardless of any abstract, meta-religious conceptual considerations.
All of this is no longer just a mathematical object.

So, given the idea the idea that you may have goals that you want to achieve in the real world, the question now rather becomes: How can you instrumentalize the concrete, practical tool of Islam in order to get where you want to be?

For example, I believe that there is just one legitimate law maker, the One True God, and that all other law makers can only be frauds.
So, ok, now let's roll out this view and implement it in the real world.
You will quickly discover that the false law makers do not shy away from using violence in order to impose their falsehoods onto you.
Therefore, you will need some real teeth to back up such views.

It is only because we have enormous reserves of staunch Islamic combat units in stand by, that I can happily assert that since the false law makers use violence in their attempts to impose their falsehoods onto us, that they must also be willing to risk their lives and die for what they believe in.

It is the metaphysical power itself, that keeps emanating and radiating from the Quranic scripture and that nicely coordinates the Muslim defenses, that allows me to happily call the pagans' bluff. Do you know of another concrete, practical religion that would be useful for such purpose? Not me.

It is the concrete, practical existence of a paradigm like Islam that allows me to ignore the pagans and their utterly false law makers, because in the meanwhile I can see their severed arms and legs flying around on television. As I have clarified already, if anybody believes that their false, pagan law makers can be sitting as gods next to or above the One True God, then in that case, they must be willing to risk their lives and die for what they believe in. They should be so grateful to all the staunch Muslim believers who give them the opportunity to actually prove that they are truly willing to risk their lives and die for their pagan gods. They should profusely thank them for such opportunity. The believers of the pagan god of feminism, should understand that their false, pagan god has become very powerful now. Their false god now legitimately insists on receiving human sacrifice. Their false, pagan god is entitled to human flesh and blood now. Therefore, these pagans should be grateful to the Muslims that they slaughter some of them so that the impatient pagan gods of feminism, the democratic voting circus, and other false, pagan law making, can eat and drink the flesh and blood of its own believers. Everybody should be grateful, because the One True God is great!
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Scimitar
07-01-2016, 04:47 AM
I am a staunch pacifist except in one situation, attack my home, or my family - and it's on!

Scimi
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kritikvernunft
07-01-2016, 05:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Timi Scar
I am a staunch pacifist except in one situation, attack my home, or my family - and it's on!
We are just a few small grains of salt in an enormous pile. So, we can safely claim that we do not control it. So much the better, actually, because otherwise they would accuse us of controlling it!

In fact, we are quite lucky that it is the power that emanates and radiates from the Quranic scripture that controls everything. That is why we do not have to be worried about what exactly it will all lead to. We would only need to worry if we had to decide all of that by ourselves. That would be an annoyance. So, I am more than happy to let the metaphysical origin of the Quran decide how things should be going.

By attacking the meta-origin of the Quran, the pagans have awoken a giant.
They are certainly aware of the fact that everything incessantly keeps maneuvering against them.
They are dangerously surrounded. You can also clearly hear the increasingly louder sound of the sharpening of the swords.
Nothing good can come out of this for the pagans.
I wonder what they will be doing next, because if were standing in their shoes, I would no longer know what to do at this point.
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fschmidt
07-01-2016, 06:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
In the real world, a real religion will be judged by its actual, practical usefulness.
I agree with this, and with the rest of what you wrote. So let me clarify my position.

The obvious 2 practical religions are Islam and Christianity. Since I live in a post-Christian country, I know much more about Christianity than about Islam. The biggest problem with Christianity is that Christians do not actually follow what Jesus said (and yes, Paul is partly to blame for this). If Christians actually followed what Jesus said, it wouldn't be a bad religion. But there are at least a few Christian groups who mostly follow what Jesus said, these being the traditional Anabaptists. These are good people. But most modern Christians are a disaster who completely reject God's will. Jesus came to support God's will, and modern Christians reject God's will in Jesus's name.

Now here is the point. Being a false member of a religion is worse than not being a member at all. The typical modern Christian is worse than an atheist, in my opinion, because he is misusing God's name (violating the third commandment). Someone should only become Christian if they are sincerely committed to following the teachings of Jesus. And someone should only become Muslim if they are sincerely committed to following the Quran. Someone who is not committed to following the Quran should not become Muslim just because of Islam's "practical usefulness".

This then leaves the question of what practical choice should a person make who wants to follow God without joining Christianity or Islam. My personal answer is to honestly submit to one of these religions without falsely joining it. This means to accept something like dhimmi status to Islam, or to humbly associate with an Anabaptist group and abide by their rules without joining. I have a thread on this topic here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...30-dhimmi.html
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kritikvernunft
07-01-2016, 06:44 AM
If Christians actually followed what Jesus said, it wouldn't be a bad religion.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree on that one. Christianity is crooked, already at the meta-religious level. There can never be a correctly functioning implementation of that thing. Its core axiomatization is utterly false, since it is trivially easy to demonstrate that it is an invalid, contradictory and inconsistent mathematical object at the meta-level.
And someone should only become Muslim if they are sincerely committed to following the Quran. Someone who is not committed to following the Quran should not become Muslim just because of Islam's "practical usefulness".
The Quran is its own axiomatization. What are saying, is not a valid derivation within the Quranic axiomatic system. Therefore, it is a unsubstantiated. Adding your own rules to existing Quranic axiomatization amounts to heresy ("innovation"). Your views are not just unsubstantiated, they are seriously worse than that. They can impossibly ever be substantiated from the Quran. In other words, they are not just heretic. They are fundamentally and utterly heretic.
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kritikvernunft
07-01-2016, 07:13 AM
... should not become Muslim just because of Islam's "practical usefulness".
The essence of a religion is that it is a complete statement about what is right and what is wrong. It is not allowed within that religion to use other sources that would define right and wrong.

If it were true that you cannot join Islam because you find it useful, this interdict must be derived from the Islamic rules themselves. This basically means that the Quran itself would have to mention that forbidden behaviour. If the Quran does not mention this behaviour as impermissible, the behaviour simply is not impermissible.

In fact, the worst possible depravity that anybody could engage in, is to liberally invent new impermissible behaviours, and have the temerity to extend or enlarge the closed and final list of forbidden behaviours mentioned in the scriptures.

Only the One True God has the authority to do that. The very reason why I am joining Islam, is because I am sick and tired of the pagans inventing new forbidden behaviours. I simply have enough of that. Only the One True God can do a thing like that, and not the pagans.

You are simply not allowed to invent new laws to harass other people with. Believe me that there is nothing more utterly detestable than the pagans, and their obnoxious practice of inventing new laws.
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YusufNoor
07-02-2016, 04:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
The essence of a religion is that it is a complete statement about what is right and what is wrong. It is not allowed within that religion to use other sources that would define right and wrong.

If it were true that you cannot join Islam because you find it useful, this interdict must be derived from the Islamic rules themselves. This basically means that the Quran itself would have to mention that forbidden behaviour. If the Quran does not mention this behaviour as impermissible, the behaviour simply is not impermissible.

In fact, the worst possible depravity that anybody could engage in, is to liberally invent new impermissible behaviours, and have the temerity to extend or enlarge the closed and final list of forbidden behaviours mentioned in the scriptures.

Only the One True God has the authority to do that. The very reason why I am joining Islam, is because I am sick and tired of the pagans inventing new forbidden behaviours. I simply have enough of that. Only the One True God can do a thing like that, and not the pagans.

You are simply not allowed to invent new laws to harass other people with. Believe me that there is nothing more utterly detestable than the pagans, and their obnoxious practice of inventing new laws.
Ma shaa Allah, awesome post!

be wary of Muslims, though. many, many just worship what their parents worshipped. I get called wahabi all the time, just because I practice Islam and not the cultures of additions that most have added.

A good Seerah is as important as the Qur'an:

http://www.pleasantviewschool.com/me...wi%20%28saw%29

Bashar's other lectures are awesome, as well. His only caveat is to state that he is not a scholar. try to make it through the 1st 3, then, it gets where it needs to!

Ma salaama!
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kritikvernunft
07-03-2016, 03:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
I get called wahabi all the time, just because I practice Islam and not the cultures of additions that most have added.
There is certainly a real and relevant issue of purity in religion.

I do not think that anybody who is even just remotely familiar with the subject would claim that the problem does not exist. Of course, things may not be as simple as some people try to depict them. We know that some people will easily resort to name calling ("You are a wahabi!"). If these things were that simple, these things would obviously not even be an issue. In that sense, I understand the concerns being raised in salafi circles ("Salafists consider the term Wahhabi derogatory"). If there were no real issue, nobody would spend a minute of his time on them. So, the problem is real and it can obviously not be solved by means of simplistic name calling.

We have the Salafi view that amongst the Madhahib schools of Islamic law, the Hanafi, Shafii, and Maliki schools have grown inconsistent, and that only the Hanbali school could still possibly make sense. In fact, we are sitting here on the serious issue of real or perceived inconsistency in the existing jurisprudence (fiqh), to the point that large areas in the fiqh may now have to be considered unusable. Another major issue seems to be that the Kalam could also, possibly, have degenerated into sheer speculative theology, and therefore also unusable.

I think that it is obvious that these problems are relatively complex, and that they will not be solved any time soon, and certainly not just by name calling. The problem will obviously also not just go away simply by ignoring it. Therefore, my personal view is that these claims should be declared receivable, and hence thoroughly investigated on their merits.
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