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Respect2ALL
07-16-2016, 09:52 PM
Can someone please comment. Please forgive if my comments seem overly simplistic.
If ISIS supporters and sympathizers want an Islamic State - Why not Give them One?

Imagine if UN said - we want to end the violence and there is no way to stop lone wolf attacks. We will make this assigned area the Islamic State. ISIS supporters must go there. Moderate Muslims, whom I believe is the vast majority are free to choose - but it would be a one time choice - go to new state or stay. I think if they had legitate area ISIS would be happy. If people want to live this lifestyle, why not recognize this and grant them "ONE ISLAMIC STATE" those that wish to live this way can decree they wish to do so. Those that do not don't have to go.

There would of course have to be a respectul and fair vetting process about people coming and leaving. Understandable people shouldn't be so free to leave the new Islamic state but free to enter. Maybe even tight borders, but why not give these people a place to go and live peacefully.


What do the rest of you think about this?
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Aaqib
07-16-2016, 09:57 PM
If I'm not mistaken, they want the whole world under their control
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muslimah_B
07-16-2016, 10:06 PM
Ok but where exactly, who is going to give up their land for them.... nobody
they would rather bomb them to pieces not caring about civilian casualties
Reply

M.I.A.
07-16-2016, 10:29 PM
Sounds like Pakistan...

Which is an amazing place obviously.
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07-16-2016, 10:46 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

First and foremost, welcome to IB! It's always nice to get a new member!

Well, props for trying to think of a solution that will make the world a better and safer place for all - that's very thoughtful and even compassionate.

At the same time, unfortunately, I'd say that your solution is overly simplistic as you'd guessed and unrealistic too.

To understand why I've said the above, you'd have to actually read Daesh's propaganda materials which I don't recommend any sane person to do. However, to summarize some of the Daesh's objectives, I'll list them out for you:
1. Assad and his armed forces to be killed. This part is perhaps the only point I don't think is too big of a problem for the globe at large because Assad has proven himself a ruthless annihilator of his peoples.
2. Revenge deaths on the nexus of Western countries responsible for Muslim death tolls in the Middle East and elsewhere in the Muslim world. For example, U.S. alone in 2015 dropped 23,144 Bombs in Muslim-majority countries.
3. Current governments in countries like Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan, etc. to topple.
4. Want themselves acknowledged as the "Islamic Caliphate" when Islamic scholars have unanimously rejected Daesh.
5. Wish moderate Muslims to join them when 99.99% of the Muslims worldwide reject and eschew Daesh and do not acknowledge it any kind of caliphate.
6. Eventually annihilate Israel.

Daesh believe the only means to accomplish the aforesaid objectives is to commit warfare: Therefore, how can we expect them to live in any assigned territory by the U.N., that's assuming that U.N. would even have this idea? And I agree with sis mulimah_B that no government in the world will be okay with giving their land to Daesh supporters or Daesh. Daesh supporters that are rare but extant in the West that commit these lone wolf-type attacks are a problem in that they're not allowed to go to Daesh-held territory currently as they'd perhaps wish because countries like U.S. and U.K. have placed moratoriums on them traveling to Syria - however, I also think that some of the attacks that have been inspired in recent history like Orlando shooting or the recent Nice attack in France are not a result of Daesh (though perhaps they were indirectly Daesh-inspired) as the lone wolves in these case were living lives that essentially sucked for them and most likely that was the biggest mental stressor - the Orlando man for example was a closeted homosexual with rage issues and the Tunisian man who committed the attack in Nice was also a person with rage issues whose family life sucked because he seemed alienated from them.

Tbh, I think it would be better if we offered free deradicalization programs to persons who felt they were heading in a bad direction and also free governmental mental health services universally to people who want it regardless of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

Hope that helped shed light on this matter.

Best Wishes,

Originally Posted by Respect2ALL
Can someone please comment. Please forgive if my comments seem overly simplistic.
If ISIS supporters and sympathizers want an Islamic State - Why not Give them One?

Imagine if UN said - we want to end the violence and there is no way to stop lone wolf attacks. We will make this assigned area the Islamic State. ISIS supporters must go there. Moderate Muslims, whom I believe is the vast majority are free to choose - but it would be a one time choice - go to new state or stay. I think if they had legitate area ISIS would be happy. If people want to live this lifestyle, why not recognize this and grant them "ONE ISLAMIC STATE" those that wish to live this way can decree they wish to do so. Those that do not don't have to go.

There would of course have to be a respectul and fair vetting process about people coming and leaving. Understandable people shouldn't be so free to leave the new Islamic state but free to enter. Maybe even tight borders, but why not give these people a place to go and live peacefully.


What do the rest of you think about this?
Reply

Karl
07-17-2016, 01:39 AM
Well if ISIS is righteous it will rule the world. If it is not it will fall. All empires fall because Allah is lord not someone with a big hat. It was better long ago when there were no nations and no politics and people were at one with nature. But they have chosen the dark path and cannot go back. Things will get worse until the end of this world.
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kritikvernunft
07-17-2016, 02:12 AM
As I understand, the long-standing and ongoing tribal insurgencies in Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Somalia, and now Syria, and other regions, are just a question of the locals expelling a government that they do not particularly want. In Iraq, the insurgencies started quite soon after the start of the American occupation. The fact that the Americans are mostly gone now, obviously did not change anything. It is, of course, possible to re-label these tribal insurgencies as "Al Qaeda" or "ISIL" or whatever, but it will not change anything to the thorough dislike of these people for the democratically-fabricated governments in Bagdad, Mogadisciu, Islamabad, Kabul, and so on.

If you attack a group of people, you either manage to kill them all, or else the surviving group will simply get stronger. In other words, by arbitrarily bombing over a billion people, left and right, they have awoken a sleeping giant.

For exactly the same reasons as why the Americans have failed to occupy Iraq or Somalia, you can reasonably expect that the defense of Western Europe will sooner or later collapse. You can trivially see why this may be so. The tribal insurgents clearly have the upper hand in urban warfare. In that sense, the military outcome in Western Europe is a foregone conclusion already. It is just a question of time before the equilibrium situation will materialize there.

I do not believe, however, that the tribal insurgencies will also manage to reach North America any time soon. However, the Americans can expect to get into serious trouble with the Hispanic populations south of the Rio Grande, a border which I expect that they will at some point overrun.

I suspect that everybody will at some point have to prove that they are willing to risk their lives and die for what they believe in. This is an important point in which the tribal insurgents are notoriously strong. Islam is an incredibly powerful and motivating faith. Islam is clearly the secret of their success. At the same time, I do not believe for one second that the populations in the West would ever lift a finger, not even to defend themselves. Unlike the tribal insurgents, they have only one flimsly line of defense: the National State. If that line is gone, it will be game over.

Therefore, the reason why you can expect the tribal insurgents to reject any of the proposals that you have mentioned, is that they are very well aware of the fact that victory is just a question of time for them. Therefore, you can expect that all possible proposals will be rejected in the ongoing insurgency war, and that the tribal insurgents will agree to a complete and unconditional surrender of the West only.
Reply

Mustafa16
07-17-2016, 03:35 AM
The problem with that is that ISIS is reinstating sexual slavery, follows an extreme interpretation of Islam for the daily guidelines of its citizens, and wants to take over the entire world.
Reply

kritikvernunft
07-17-2016, 04:30 AM
> The problem with that is that ISIS is reinstating sexual slavery

The feminist literature says that marriage is also a form of sexual slavery. In that sense, they would just be re-labeling an existing and widespread practice.
I have never spoken -- not that I know of -- with a self-proclaimed tribal insurgent, possibly re-labeled as "Al Qaeda", or "ISIL", or what-have-you.

> follows an extreme interpretation of Islam for the daily guidelines of its citizens

I do not know about about the daily life in tribal insurgency areas. There are ethnographic studies about the Pashtun, for example, in Afghanistan or the tribal areas in Pakistan, such as Waziristan, but those mostly predate the current insurgency. But then again, their traditional way of life has been documented, and that is what anybody can expect them to revert to after the end of the insurgency. As I remember, there was nothing weird to be seen in their ancient traditions. Some aspects even compare favourably to the habits of other ethnicities elsewhere on the globe. Until further notice, I will simply maintain the view that there is probably nothing wrong with Pashtunism. You can download the narratives, interview transcripts, and other digital files recorded by people who have taken an academically-motivated interest in Pashtunism and explain in more western terms what they think it is.

(Here some kind of summary, but note that this is not an original deposition, or set of recorded witness testimonies, and therefore has no pretense whatsoever of historical accuracy: http://www.everyculture.com/wc/Afgha...a/Pashtun.html)

> and wants to take over the entire world.

Well, either you take over or else you get taken over, I guess.
I personally have no idea of how else they are going to put a stop to these drones bombing their tribal lands.
What are they supposed to do? Just to sit there and get bombarded into oblivion?
Therefore, I somehow understand their reaction.

But then again, these things suit me perfectly fine, because I was already getting enough of people who believe that it is ok to bomb other people, but start whining incessantly when they end up getting bombed themselves. If you cannot stand the heat, get out of the sun. What a bunch of born losers! ;-)
Reply

Ineed Umar
07-17-2016, 05:48 AM
Most Daesh followers from West were muslims/non-Muslims who had a bad life and had little or no faith in God hence found "blasting self to huts" a sane way to suicide as well as avoid hell fire which might not be the case.

To end daesh and radicalisation we need to educate Muslims about Allah and his mercy! Allah forgives every sin and never denies a forgiveness request. To be forgiven it is not necessary to join a political militia who only needs the paper.

If you love Allah you would not steal stuff if you love Allah you would pray 24/7 not kill people if you love Allah you won't be a barbarian whof likes to rape and justifies it.
Reply

kritikvernunft
07-17-2016, 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by Ineed Umar
Most Daesh followers from West were muslims/non-Muslims who had a bad life and had little or no faith in God hence found "blasting self to huts" a sane way to suicide as well as avoid hell fire which might not be the case.
Besides the advantage that they obviously have, in urban warfare, there is indeed something to say for that otherwise counterintuitive and strange strategy of "suicide fighting". Pretty much all military strategies are predicated on the idea that the soldiers will try to stay alive. When you drop that particular requirement, it certainly opens up possibilities for surprisingly effective tactics. The Japanese used to harass the American navy with kamikaze (suicide) airplane pilots. These tactics were not effective enough to change the course of the war, but they certainly scared the navy personnel to death.

I share your view that the persons mentioned most likely want to go anyway. They have already decided to leave the game of life. Suicide tactics give them the opportunity to go head up high, because then they can go as martyrs, and not as cowards. There are reasons to believe that some persons very belatedly reassign their personal goals to a religion in which they had otherwise not particularly been interested, and yes, suddenly they become holier than thou. But then again, the scriptures clearly leave open the possibility to accept the faith, up till the very last minute of your life. There are no mentions of deadlines anywhere in the scriptures in the style of "you must join at least 24 hours before you die". I have never run into that kind of requirements when perusing the scriptures. If they suicide-bomb themselves based on their convictions related to the One God, the only one who will be in a position to judge their behaviour on the Last Day, will obviously be the One God himself. In that sense, justice is guaranteed. Concerning their enemies, I am usually not fond of them either. Therefore, I will not deny that the way in which all of this is unfolding, perfectly suits me fine. Isn't the One God great?
Reply

Eric H
07-17-2016, 07:43 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Ineed Umar;

To end daesh and radicalisation we need to educate Muslims about Allah and his mercy! Allah forgives every sin and never denies a forgiveness request. If you love Allah you would not steal stuff if you love Allah you would pray 24/7 not kill people if you love Allah you won't be a barbarian who likes to rape and justifies it.
Amen

In the spirit of praying to a merciful God.

Eric
Reply

sister herb
07-17-2016, 08:19 AM
Originally Posted by Respect2ALL
Can someone please comment. Please forgive if my comments seem overly simplistic.
If ISIS supporters and sympathizers want an Islamic State - Why not Give them One?
Would you like the idea that kind of "state" would become created to your neighborhood? Would you accept that your country will voluntary gives an area for kind of state or are you thinking that it should create to somewhere very far from your place?

We have in this world several groups of people whose right now are without their own land and countries are already very reluctant to accept own lands to them, specially if there are some important natural resources which every country needs for establishing the bases of health economy. What about the original inhibitants whose live in the area which you would create "the Islamic State"? Should they just move away from their homes (if they wouldn´t like to be part of kind of new state)? Would you like to move out from your home then?

Yep, I know you didn´t imagine the Islamic State to your own background, did you?
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kritikvernunft
07-17-2016, 09:34 AM
Originally Posted by sister herb
Should they just move away from their homes (if they wouldn´t like to be part of kind of new state)? Would you like to move out from your home then? Yep, I know you didn´t imagine the Islamic State to your own background, did you?
At the moment, I do not particularly have a problem with the tribal insurgents, not even with the ones re-labeled as "Al Qaeda" or "Islamic State" or something like that. Who cares? I have personally met not even one, actually.

As far as I am concerned, I have enough of the system of "National State" that wants to suck you dry and tell you what to do. I do not like that system at all. If someone feels like unceremoniously sinking it, seriously, be my guest, and sink it already. Of course, anybody who takes over, must not try to start that nightmare all over again, of trying to suck me dry or to tell me what to do, because then I will have good reasons to get rid of them too.

Another detail is that I do not particularly like feminism. I think it is five past twelve now, in that respect. We really need to get rid of that demonic ideology, preferably yesterday already. So, that is a big plus for the tribal insurgents, and a big minus for the National State. Therefore, whoever takes over, does not matter much. What really matters, is that the National State has to go now. If they really believe that we are going to keep putting up with that bunch of satanic whores, sticking their meddlesome noses into the relationship between men and women, or parents and children, they are dreaming. I am perfectly ok with the idea that the tribal insurgents take that obnoxious ideology to the cleaners, and get rid of it, once and for all.

You see, the National State is feminist. This does not only mean that the men will generally not agree to fight for it, and certainly not risk their lives or die for it. Worse, you can even expect that a sizable proportion of the men would switch sides, and rather join up with the attacker. The situation is indeed insanely treacherous. The National State simply has no real defenders, and actually not even real friends.
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greenhill
07-17-2016, 10:14 AM
Welcome to the forum.

Straight to the question... :D

On the OP, we have to understand islam, how the caliphate works, and your question...

Islam is about submission to Allah. Hence believers DO NOT make their own rules. Their follow the laws already established ans supposed to be maintained by the caliphate. In essence, one law for ALL.

It is not about giving them (ISIS) a plot for self rule.

To add, muslims also believe (as the Jews do on their 'Promised Land'), that Allah will restore the caliphate when it suits Him and I believe ISIS is just trying to force the issue.

My 2 cents worth..

Wishing you a great stay.


:peace:
Reply

Karl
07-22-2016, 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
As I understand, the long-standing and ongoing tribal insurgencies in Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Somalia, and now Syria, and other regions, are just a question of the locals expelling a government that they do not particularly want. In Iraq, the insurgencies started quite soon after the start of the American occupation. The fact that the Americans are mostly gone now, obviously did not change anything. It is, of course, possible to re-label these tribal insurgencies as "Al Qaeda" or "ISIL" or whatever, but it will not change anything to the thorough dislike of these people for the democratically-fabricated governments in Bagdad, Mogadisciu, Islamabad, Kabul, and so on.

If you attack a group of people, you either manage to kill them all, or else the surviving group will simply get stronger. In other words, by arbitrarily bombing over a billion people, left and right, they have awoken a sleeping giant.

For exactly the same reasons as why the Americans have failed to occupy Iraq or Somalia, you can reasonably expect that the defense of Western Europe will sooner or later collapse. You can trivially see why this may be so. The tribal insurgents clearly have the upper hand in urban warfare. In that sense, the military outcome in Western Europe is a foregone conclusion already. It is just a question of time before the equilibrium situation will materialize there.

I do not believe, however, that the tribal insurgencies will also manage to reach North America any time soon. However, the Americans can expect to get into serious trouble with the Hispanic populations south of the Rio Grande, a border which I expect that they will at some point overrun.

I suspect that everybody will at some point have to prove that they are willing to risk their lives and die for what they believe in. This is an important point in which the tribal insurgents are notoriously strong. Islam is an incredibly powerful and motivating faith. Islam is clearly the secret of their success. At the same time, I do not believe for one second that the populations in the West would ever lift a finger, not even to defend themselves. Unlike the tribal insurgents, they have only one flimsly line of defense: the National State. If that line is gone, it will be game over.

Therefore, the reason why you can expect the tribal insurgents to reject any of the proposals that you have mentioned, is that they are very well aware of the fact that victory is just a question of time for them. Therefore, you can expect that all possible proposals will be rejected in the ongoing insurgency war, and that the tribal insurgents will agree to a complete and unconditional surrender of the West only.
I believe you are wrong. The West is playing cat and mouse with these "extremists" making money and bolstering their war machine. Islam can never win with violence, especially against the Northern European White tribes. They are so violent they kill each other over a soccer match. They have slaughtered each other by the tens of millions in the 2 great wars and nuked the Japanese without hesitation, now the threat of "extremist Islam" unifies them. I know that Muslims get frustrated and want to lash out but that is exactly what the West wants. Capitalism thrives on war and money makes the world go around, the extermination of nations that threaten the West is profitable to boot. Remember the words of Jesus "Love thy enemy". There is another saying "you can get more flies with honey than vinegar".
Reply

Karl
07-22-2016, 11:57 PM
Originally Posted by greenhill
Welcome to the forum.

Straight to the question... :D

On the OP, we have to understand islam, how the caliphate works, and your question...

Islam is about submission to Allah. Hence believers DO NOT make their own rules. Their follow the laws already established ans supposed to be maintained by the caliphate. In essence, one law for ALL.

It is not about giving them (ISIS) a plot for self rule.

To add, muslims also believe (as the Jews do on their 'Promised Land'), that Allah will restore the caliphate when it suits Him and I believe ISIS is just trying to force the issue.

My 2 cents worth..

Wishing you a great stay.


:peace:
True and Islam is meant to be benevolent NOT psychopathically evil, that is the Western way.
Reply

kritikvernunft
07-23-2016, 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by Karl
the Northern European White tribes.
In order to have a tribe or clan, you need an established marriage policy around a common ancestor. Tribal cohesion cannot be achieved without the one or the other kind of cousin marriage. As you know, empires always forbid cousin marriage, exactly because it makes it more difficult to pick individuals from the fray, as they would enjoy clan -or tribal protection. Imperial religion (such as Christianity) will therefore prevent cousin marriage. The same holds true in China and India. They cannot be tribal, because their marriage practices forbid this.

Even though tribal marriage is bad news for the National State, it is certainly a good thing for the individual. Most people would prefer strong solidarity between relatives. It is the natural state of things, unless marriage gets taken over and subverted by national statism. Seriously, as a staunch anti-statist, I use "tribe" or "clan" as a compliment for purity of religion and not at all as a negative label. The National State is so incredibly corrupt, evil, and perverted that it will even corrupt religion and control marriage practices, in order to better isolate and individualize the population, as such to increase its power over it, exact more taxes, suck them dry, and even more unreasonably tell them what to do. The National State is an utterly detestable thing.
Originally Posted by Karl
I know that Muslims get frustrated and want to lash out but that is exactly what the West wants.
The West has awoken an sleeping giant. I can almost not believe that they did not know what the result would be. So, I suspect that they actually knew. You see, if you cannot kill all your enemies, shooting a few, will make the remaining ones only angrier, and more willing to do what it takes to get even. So, I cannot imagine that they did not see this coming. But then again, like the situation is today, is exactly what I had expected that would happen, and really, it suits me absolutely fine. You can easily see what is going to happen next, and that suits me fine too. Ultimately, it is the One God who takes responsibility for the course of things. So, to an important extent, we can just watch and enjoy the show! ;-)
Reply

Thomas6650
07-23-2016, 06:28 PM
ISIS is currently working on creating an Islamic Nation without the assistance of the UN or any one else. They are using their own methods to create a nation that conforms to their ideology, principles, and beliefs, and they have only one rule. "Live the way we tell you to or else." For those Western politicians who believe they can control or reign in ISIS and their followers through appeasement, they are only kidding themselves. This only makes them angrier for ISIS and their followers will not accept demeaning or belittling attitudes towards them, no one would. Groups like ISIS only believe in one thing and one thing only, defeating those who they see as their opposition. We are seeing it in Europe now, it starts with small attacks that everyone considers random, then they will step up their attacks, finally it will be a large invasion force charging in to defeat the military forces. The question we in the North America should be asking ourselves is when will it be our turn? We are already seeing it start. San Bernardino, Orlando, Boston, Chattanooga, New York, those were more or less warning shots compared to what we can expect over the next four or five years. I would even go so far as expecting states like Illinois, Kansas, and Nebraska would not be immune from such attacks. And for those who believe that our Second Amendment would prevent this from happening, remember we have progressive liberal politicians like Feinstein, Schumer, Boxer, and others attempting to eliminate the Second Amendment from our Constitution as well as all of the other Bill of Rights of our Constitution, thus allowing for ISIS and others who consider themselves to be our enemies the opportunity to step in and conquer the United States. And no our military will not be effective against them either for our enemies are softening up our military in an effort to appease and show respect those who consider themselves to be our enemies in an effort to alter their plans to eliminate us as a society. No just handing over a piece of land to ISIS and other groups in an effort to satisfy their lust for conquest is not going to work. The only way to defeat ISIS is to use the same methods and means they use to defeat us, we just have to take off the gloves and get serious about it. This speechifying, prayer meeting, Bible Thumping, appeasable, way of doing things is going to amount to a spit in a river. We all know what has to be done, the problem is there are just too many politicians and voters afraid to do the right thing thus this is why our nation is suffering, we're too busy destroying ourselves while our enemies sit back and laugh at us for they know we are only opening the door for them to enter and wipe us all out. Until we come together as a nation to rise up against those who are intent on ruling over us, will we be able to live in peace. Instead of saying God Bless America we should be begging God to Save America.
Reply

M.I.A.
07-23-2016, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas6650
ISIS is currently working on creating an Islamic Nation without the assistance of the UN or any one else. They are using their own methods to create a nation that conforms to their ideology, principles, and beliefs, and they have only one rule. "Live the way we tell you to or else." For those Western politicians who believe they can control or reign in ISIS and their followers through appeasement, they are only kidding themselves. This only makes them angrier for ISIS and their followers will not accept demeaning or belittling attitudes towards them, no one would. Groups like ISIS only believe in one thing and one thing only, defeating those who they see as their opposition. We are seeing it in Europe now, it starts with small attacks that everyone considers random, then they will step up their attacks, finally it will be a large invasion force charging in to defeat the military forces. The question we in the North America should be asking ourselves is when will it be our turn? We are already seeing it start. San Bernardino, Orlando, Boston, Chattanooga, New York, those were more or less warning shots compared to what we can expect over the next four or five years. I would even go so far as expecting states like Illinois, Kansas, and Nebraska would not be immune from such attacks. And for those who believe that our Second Amendment would prevent this from happening, remember we have progressive liberal politicians like Feinstein, Schumer, Boxer, and others attempting to eliminate the Second Amendment from our Constitution as well as all of the other Bill of Rights of our Constitution, thus allowing for ISIS and others who consider themselves to be our enemies the opportunity to step in and conquer the United States. And no our military will not be effective against them either for our enemies are softening up our military in an effort to appease and show respect those who consider themselves to be our enemies in an effort to alter their plans to eliminate us as a society. No just handing over a piece of land to ISIS and other groups in an effort to satisfy their lust for conquest is not going to work. The only way to defeat ISIS is to use the same methods and means they use to defeat us, we just have to take off the gloves and get serious about it. This speechifying, prayer meeting, Bible Thumping, appeasable, way of doing things is going to amount to a spit in a river. We all know what has to be done, the problem is there are just too many politicians and voters afraid to do the right thing thus this is why our nation is suffering, we're too busy destroying ourselves while our enemies sit back and laugh at us for they know we are only opening the door for them to enter and wipe us all out. Until we come together as a nation to rise up against those who are intent on ruling over us, will we be able to live in peace. Instead of saying God Bless America we should be begging God to Save America.
...well, I'm glad WMD's were not mentioned.

ISIS will change the world.. and probably lead to the formation of a caliphate or the beginnings of such a thing.

...but probably not the way you imagine.

We are all cogs in the machine.. God knows what the bloody thing does.


The irony does not escape me that fear is a leading factor on both sides of the coin.. according to you.
Reply

Karl
07-24-2016, 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
In order to have a tribe or clan, you need an established marriage policy around a common ancestor. Tribal cohesion cannot be achieved without the one or the other kind of cousin marriage. As you know, empires always forbid cousin marriage, exactly because it makes it more difficult to pick individuals from the fray, as they would enjoy clan -or tribal protection. Imperial religion (such as Christianity) will therefore prevent cousin marriage. The same holds true in China and India. They cannot be tribal, because their marriage practices forbid this.

Even though tribal marriage is bad news for the National State, it is certainly a good thing for the individual. Most people would prefer strong solidarity between relatives. It is the natural state of things, unless marriage gets taken over and subverted by national statism. Seriously, as a staunch anti-statist, I use "tribe" or "clan" as a compliment for purity of religion and not at all as a negative label. The National State is so incredibly corrupt, evil, and perverted that it will even corrupt religion and control marriage practices, in order to better isolate and individualize the population, as such to increase its power over it, exact more taxes, suck them dry, and even more unreasonably tell them what to do. The National State is an utterly detestable thing.

The West has awoken an sleeping giant. I can almost not believe that they did not know what the result would be. So, I suspect that they actually knew. You see, if you cannot kill all your enemies, shooting a few, will make the remaining ones only angrier, and more willing to do what it takes to get even. So, I cannot imagine that they did not see this coming. But then again, like the situation is today, is exactly what I had expected that would happen, and really, it suits me absolutely fine. You can easily see what is going to happen next, and that suits me fine too. Ultimately, it is the One God who takes responsibility for the course of things. So, to an important extent, we can just watch and enjoy the show! ;-)
A tribe is different from a clan. A clan is a family like Clan Macleod or Clan Fraser. A tribe is more of a group of people with similar genetics. In Britain there are Vikings later named Normans, Angles, Anglo Saxons, Saxons, Celts etc. They have different family names.

"The National State is an utterly detestable thing". Yes it is but it is the only thing that works and it is far better than a one world government! Of course if I ruled the world it would be paradise :p

The West is gearing up for a big cull. That is what war is all about. Too many people and not enough resources. And when technology gets so advanced the rich wont need the poor anymore.
Reply

Karl
07-24-2016, 12:27 AM
One thing that I cannot understand is why the West invites Muslims into it's countries and even looks after them as for refugees etc. And many Westerners even want to intermarry and mongrelize with them. Yet at the same time the West is Zionist and more or less at war with Islam and rants and raves against its tenets and beliefs. I cannot understand these contradictions. Can anyone enlighten me?
Reply

kritikvernunft
07-24-2016, 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Thomas6650
They are using their own methods to create a nation that conforms to their ideology, principles, and beliefs, and they have only one rule. "Live the way we tell you to or else."
They will certainly not be able to create a run-of-the-mill National State.

Islam cannot be used, or enlisted, to combat the tribes or the clans. It would require the National State to grab control over marriage practices in order to "forbid that what Allah has permitted". In fact, this is how the original first war in Afghanistan started against the Soviet-supported Afghan National State. The Afghan National State had created a marriage law "that forbade that what Allah has permitted", and were organizing a killing fest under the clergy in order to get them to accept their new marriage law:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War
In 1978, the Taraki government initiated a series of reforms, including a radical modernization of the traditional Islamic civil and especially marriage law, aimed at "uprooting feudalism" in Afghan society. The government brooked no opposition to the reforms and responded with violence to unrest. Between April 1978 and the Soviet Intervention of December 1979, thousands of prisoners, perhaps as many as 27,000, were executed at the notorious Pul-e-Charkhi prison, including many village mullahs and headmen. Other members of the traditional elite, the religious establishment and intelligentsia fled the country.


The Soviet-supported Afghan National State grabbed the tribes by their throats by attacking their marriage practices. The only outcome possible in that situation, is exactly what happened next: The wholesale extermination of anybody even just loosely associated to the Afghan National State. They died like flies and dogs, and the One God knows that they had asked for it.

What you can see today in the Middle East, is exactly the same scenario. Western-supported National States, assisted by Western NGOs, try to grab the tribal populations by the throat by attacking their marriage practices. The outcome will obviously be exactly the same as in Afghanistan: The wholesale extermination of anybody even just loosely associated to the Western-supported National States. They are going to die like flies and dogs, and the One God knows that these people will have asked for it.

The people who have been re-labeled to "Al Qaeda" or "ISIS" are just tribal populations conducting insurgencies to protect their marriage practices. All they need to do for that, is to insist on Islamic Law. The very reason why tribal populations originally adopted Islam, is exactly because Islam is so compatible with tribal marriage practices. Islam is clearly both a goal as an instrument to achieve this very goal.

They are not interested in anybody else to live their way. Islam does not lend itself to imposing your own views onto others. In the end, what you have, is a list of forbidden behaviours in which you are not supposed to engage. Besides that, you are free to do as you please. They will not be able to use Islam for that kind of goals, that is, forcing people to live their way, because it would be much easier for their enemies to also use Islam, but then against that. Furthermore, it is exactly this freedom that the tribes use to organize their marriage practices as it suits them and as it protects the tribes and the clans. Reducing freedom, requires adding new forbidden behaviours to the existing list. The Islamic doctrines simply do not allow for that kind of "innovation".

Therefore, these populations just want to protect their tribal way of life and marriage practices, and hence Islam itself. Of course, they will not hesitate to unceremoniously knock out the West, if that is what it takes, in order to achieve their otherwise very legitimate tribal goal.

Instead of a National State, which would just degenerate into the play toy of the dominant tribe, and eventually get knocked out by the other tribes, they may just do as before and recognize a slave as their sultan, a gang of slave girls as his wives, and let the sultan purchase a gang of slaves, with preferably no attachments to the tribes whatsoever, for his government, bureaucracy, police force, and army. Unless the tribes find another way to make a tribal state work -- which I doubt -- it could perfectly be that the tribes will just be governed by slaves again.
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kritikvernunft
07-24-2016, 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by Karl
A tribe is different from a clan. A clan is a family like Clan Macleod or Clan Fraser. A tribe is more of a group of people with similar genetics.
Well, both are about having a common ancestor. Tribes do too. The common ancestor may be dead for millennia already, such as Yavuth ("Jacob") and his four wives, but still, tribes do have a common mythical ancestor. In fact, their marriage practices -- especially cousin marriage -- almost guarantee that it will really be like that. The Arab tribes also claim a common ancestor (Ismael, son of Hagar, half-brother of Isaac), but I somehow suspect that they just like the idea of explicitly giving such common ancestor a name, and therefore would even invent one if need be -- or why not -- grab leftover stories from the Jews and handily re-purpose them. ;-)
Originally Posted by Karl
Yes it is but it is the only thing that works
No, not true. Government by slaves works absolutely fine too. The Ottomans did it like that. The Mamluks too. Government by slaves is more than a practical joke. They managed to keep that going for almost a millennium, without laughing their heads off all the time! ;-)
Originally Posted by Karl
And when technology gets so advanced the rich wont need the poor anymore.
Actually not really true, because self-defeating. Wealth is the possession of things that other people generally need, so that you can trade with them in order to acquire what you would need. In the absence of such trade, you are not wealthy, because there is nobody who would need that of which you would have much.

You see, before people start whining about unemployment, someone first needs to explain to me why it is so impossibly hard to find a plumber, electrician, or carpenter, who has five minutes of spare time to work on things that I would need? Of course, the hoi polloi do not want to learn plumbing, electricity work or carpenting, because they want to push paper in a post office instead. But howdy ho, what if what we need, is a plumber, and not a paper pusher? Seriously, I am sick and tired of all these aspiring, unemployed paper pushers whining about the dearth of jobs in the paper-pushing industry.

Even in my field, say, software in general, we are not worried about any possible unemployment, but about who exactly is supposed to maintain in the future all the systems that we have built already, let alone improve them or even build brand new ones? Around 80% of the work is in maintaining and operating existing systems. All calculations and predictions say that we are even going to run out of available resources in India, and that the proverbial dirt is going to hit the fan quite soon. Seriously, on a global scale, over 50% of all programmers were drafted out of India, and we are busy exhausting whoever was still available over there. Millions were drawn in, and the entire stock is pretty much gone now. Furthermore, nobody in our field was born rich. Larry Ellison, Bill Gates, Sergey Brin, Larry Page, Mark Zuckerberg, and so on. The list is endless. Who of these people were born rich? They just rolled out their otherwise weird idea, and then the users -- in large numbers -- wanted to use it, and started using it. So, the money just came falling out of the sky. So, if these people accumulated too much money, who is there to blame? The users, of course. For example, who forced the users to start using mobile phones by the billions? Nobody that I know of.

At the same time, there are millions of positions going unfilled, for jobs that do not amount to just useless paper pushing. There are also lots of self-employed positions not being filled, for people who prefer to work on their own. Almost every industry is facing shortages, but obviously only of people who would be doing something useful. The number one reason why not to do something nowadays or not to invest in a project, is simply because you would have to hire un-findable people to do it.

The real problem is that everybody wants a paper-pushing job at the Ministry of Useless Affairs. Hear them whining and complaining because they cannot find this dream job of theirs!

Furthermore, concerning unemployment, let's not forget that approximately half of the human population could perfectly-well survive just by producing reproduction services. Seriously, the most common business model is to make children with a particular man, obtain resources from him to do that, and otherwise not bother to do anything at all, in an economical sense. I do not see why we would go out of our way to invent other jobs for people who actually already could have one? In that sense, there is no unemployment or such problem for them, actually. If they do not want to fall back on the always available backup plan, then they can look for something else, but why would we see it as a problem that it would be hard for them to find something else? Where is the urgency? I really do not see any.
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