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kritikvernunft
07-20-2016, 03:23 AM
If a practice is not halal, you can reasonably assume that it will backfire somewhere somewhere it the future, in this life, or possibly even in the next one. The corollary is obviously that when you see something badly backfiring, that you could reasonably start searching for a haram practice that may lie at the basis of what is going wrong.

In other words, the Backfiring Corollary Theorem conjectures that for everything that goes wrong, there exists a haram practice that causes it.

For example, the banking system will always end up collapsing. The Quranic text points out that charging interest ("riba") is fundamentally haram, while Riba is clearly a core feature of the banking system. This nicely explains upfront any future calamities in the banking system. No need to look any further.

If we look at a second example, we can see that even without a collapsing banking system, paper money will on the long term always collapse. Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value – zero. Often Rather Quickly. (Voltaire, 1694-1778).

The value of paper money rests on the belief that its emitter will not debase its value by emitting more of it. Therefore, it represents the false pagan belief that the national state can be trusted. Consequently, it is a form of polytheism ("shirk"). Furthermore, Theory of Deception says that it is the aggregate belief itself in the deceptive statement (a=b) -- large numbers of people really believing it -- that fuels the growth in the total amount of deception (b-a)². This then explains Voltaire's Law. The complete destruction of the value of paper money, occurs because all false pagan beliefs ultimately and completely backfire.

Pure monotheist faith says that in the One God we trust and in nothing else. Everything else must be treated with varying degrees of suspicion. Every possible departure from pure monotheist faith will eventually always snowball into its own punishment. If you have acted upon the false belief in something else than the One God, you will have to pay. The natural corollary of this system invariant is that, on the other hand, exclusive faith in the One God ("monotheism", "tawhid") will be rewarded handsomely, later in this life, or in the next one.

The previous examples were rather simple to analyze. We could clearly see where things were wrong. The stock exchange is a much more difficult object of study. Why will the stock exchange always collapse and lose all of its value?

There is an absolutely obnoxious business model possible with stock markets.

Quite a few people have noticed that the stock markets go down, and particular shares go down very visibly, when there are bombing attacks. For example, when the airport in Brussels, Belgium, got suicide-bombed, the stock of Air France-KLM started tanking. Several tour operators started tanking too.

A put option is the right to sell stock at a particular price. If the value of the stock goes down, the value of the put option goes up. In a simple example, imagine that you buy the right to sell 100 000 shares in Air France at 15 Euro at 1.5 Euro per share. Therefore, you spend 1.5 x 100 000 = 150 000 Euro to enter this position. After the bombing attack, the spot price (current price) becomes 11 Euro. This means that these put options are now worth (15-11) x 100 000 = 400 000 Euro. Therefore, your profits, resulting from the bombing attack, are 400 000 - 150 000 Euro = 250 000 Euro.

Consequently, if you know beforehand that the bombing attack will take place, you can buy these put options before the attack, and cash out after the attack. It would be a one-way, always-money-making bet. It would not particularly be stretch to say: Why not just organize such attack by yourself? The attack would certainly fund itself.

What we can see, is something badly backfiring here. There is a fundamental flaw in the situation that allows people to make lots of money by unceremoniously killing other people. Therefore, according to the Backfiring Corollary Theorem, there is something fundamentally wrong with the stock market mechanism itself, caused by a haram practice that underlies it.

Now, investment in itself is not fundamentally haram. Trade is also not fundamentally haram. Still, strange but true, the entire stock exchange mechanism still turns out to be haram.

Furthermore, when behaviour is ultimately self-defeating, it can only be morally wrong. It is quite easy to see why this may be so. The reason why shares have value in the first place, is because they represent the profits from a business -- a group of people -- buying supplies from their suppliers and selling products or services to their customers, both of which are just other groups of people. If you kill these people, there would be no production nor sales, and therefore no profits. Therefore, it looks like the stock market has somewhere an innate propensity to destroy its own profits, by unceremoniously killing anybody involved in one way or another in the underlying business of the company whose shares are traded on the stock market.

Therefore, my questions:

Which exactly is the haram practice underlying the stock market that causes this problem? Can you pinpoint something? In my impression, it is not interest ("riba") in this case. Why is the stock market still fundamentally evil, even though it just represents behaviour that consists of otherwise possibly permissible investment and trade?
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'abd al-hakeem
07-20-2016, 05:22 AM
Can't you simply acknowledge that Allah said 'No' to riba/interest, and accept it in spite of what is subsequently forbidden thereafter?

What do you hope to achieve by nit picking the instruction of Allah, Exalted and Wise...?

Maybe it was forbidden because of the propensity for oppression, which, incidentally, you have already mentioned in your post... Incidentally Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala forbade HIMSELF from oppression... Investigate Islamic banking instead of challenging your Creator on a public forum.

Quite a lot of books being read with very few mentions of the Qur'an... You should ask @Scimitar about the bani Israel syndrome...
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kritikvernunft
07-20-2016, 06:18 AM
Originally Posted by abd il-Hakim
Can't you simply acknowledge that Allah said 'No' to riba/interest, and accept it in spite of what is subsequently forbidden thereafter?
You may have misunderstood my question. I said about the banking system that it is asking for trouble because of their outlawed riba/interest practices. I said about the stock market that it does not use riba/interest, but that it is also seems to have evil consequences. So, the problem there is not riba/interest. Therefore, there must be another problem. What is it?
Originally Posted by abd il-Hakim
What do you hope to achieve by nit picking the instruction of Allah, Exalted and Wise...?
I was not questioning the instruction of Allah. I just pointed out that not all problems are related to riba/interest. There are other forbidden behaviours too. The stock market seems to lead to evil outcomes. So, what is the underlying misbehaviour that causes it, if you know that this time it is not the practice of riba/interest?
Originally Posted by abd il-Hakim
Investigate Islamic banking instead of challenging your Creator on a public forum.
I am not questioning the ban on riba/interest. I am just pointing out that there is a serious problem with the stock markets but that it does not seem to be due to the problem of riba/interest. So, what particular misbehaviour leads to the evil described?
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'abd al-hakeem
07-20-2016, 06:54 AM
Of all that, you glossed the one reference that would actually answer your question... Islamic Banking.

Not being an Islamic banking specialist, myself, I suggest, as I suggested before, to investigate it for yourself...

May Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala give you the answers you seek. Amin ya Rabbil alamin
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kritikvernunft
07-20-2016, 07:43 AM
Originally Posted by abd il-Hakim
Of all that, you glossed the one reference that would actually answer your question... Islamic Banking. Not being an Islamic banking specialist, myself, I suggest, as I suggested before, to investigate it for yourself... May Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala give you the answers you seek. Amin ya Rabbil alamin
Thanks. It is about stock markets, however, and not really about riba/interest banking.

There is no lending/borrowing going on in stock markets, or anything else related to riba/interest.
It is all about the shares in companies that will give you the right to draw a commensurate share of their profits.

Still, stock markets seem to promote a few evil and literally murderous outcomes.

Of course, you can easily see that riba/interest banking has murderous outcomes too, but that can be mostly explained by misbehaviour related to riba/interest. So, there is no mystery as to why riba/interest banking is fundamentally dangerous. It is literally mentioned as evil in the religious scriptures. That is why you should not expect anything else but evil outcomes.

Stock markets, however, do not involve interest/riba. So, what underlying misbehaviour manages to make stock markets utterly evil and murderous? Because they really are. So, where is the catch?
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Tim_the_Plumber
07-20-2016, 08:32 AM
The value of paper money rests on the belief that its emitter will not debase its value by emitting more of it. Therefore, it represents the false pagan belief that the national state can be trusted. Consequently, it is a form of polytheism ("shirk"). Furthermore, Theory of Deception says that it is the aggregate belief itself in the deceptive statement (a=b) -- large numbers of people really believing it -- that fuels the growth in the total amount of deception (b-a)². This then explains Voltaire's Law. The complete destruction of the value of paper money, occurs because all false pagan beliefs ultimately and completely backfire.
I think you should avoid investing in the stock market whilst you use this sort of reasoning. Throwing in maths of no meaning to try to make gibberish more credible will make you suceptible to the gibberish of others. It will make you a sucker.
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kritikvernunft
07-20-2016, 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber
I think you should avoid investing in the stock market whilst you use this sort of reasoning.
Well, in the business model at stake you can buy 1 million dollars worth of put options on IBM, and then find someone to bomb their global headquarters (or do it by yourself), then watch how the share price drops in value right in front of you, and then cash in on your put options, now probably worth at least 5+ million dollars.
This is a one-way bet. Your investment strategy will always be in the money.
Stock markets are evil, since they allow you to make lots of money, just by killing lots of people.
My question is now: Why is it even possible to do that?
In all other cases, there was an explanation readily available: the other business models rest on riba/interests. So, it is absolutely normal that they have utmost evil outcomes. In this case, the explanation is not trivial. There is fundamentally something evil about stock markets, but it is not clear to me what fundamental misbehaviour is at stake here.
Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber
Throwing in maths of no meaning to try to make gibberish more credible will make you suceptible to the gibberish of others. It will make you a sucker.
Of course, math looks like gibberish; and sofware source code even more so.
That is certainly one reason why I make so much money.
If everybody could understand what I do for a living, everybody would be making lots of money.
You and I know, that this is, of course, not the case.

This kind of things does not make you a sucker, believe me, but a millionaire, and in some cases, like if you are Mark Zuckerberg, Sergey Brinn, or Larry Page, even a hunderds-of-billionaire. If it were simple to produce half a trillion dollars of value (Google, Facebook, Apple), everybody would do it, no? It requires a deep understanding of things that look like gibberish! That's why so few people are willing and capable of doing this, and why the ones who do, are so bloody rich! ;-)

In fact, I like philosophizing much more than making money. If the reverse were the case, I would be trying to make some more money instead of philosophizing here, wouldn't I? So, I doubt that I will ever become a hunderds-of-billionaire. I don't care, because I would not know what to spend that kind of money on anyway. Maybe on getting some more time to philosophize? ;-)
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Eric H
07-20-2016, 11:48 AM
Greetings and peace be with you kritikvernunft;

I am not questioning the ban on riba/interest. I am just pointing out that there is a serious problem with the stock markets but that it does not seem to be due to the problem of riba/interest. So, what particular misbehaviour leads to the evil described
The stock market has very little to do with investing, otherwise you would leave your money in a company for years, and you would also have a concern for that company. Is gambling evil? Because the stock market benefits from the principles of gambling, by trying to stack the odds in your favour, before you place your bet.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric
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Scimitar
07-20-2016, 12:06 PM


http://www.imranhosein.org/books/480-the-prohibition-of-ribah-in-the-quran-and-sunnah.html

Selling stock you do not own to anonymous buyers for an interest based profit which fluctuates is haraam. The day to day movements of the stockmarket are somewhat random, so trying to time the market and make money off the random swings is gambling in a different form.

Makes it haraam.

Scimi
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ardianto
07-20-2016, 01:08 PM
Investment is halal. Transferring (selling) investment to other party is halal, because this is trading. Buying commodity and sell it again when the price increased is halal too.

What haram is if you were cheating in stock trading like commit insider trading or spread false rumors.

Originally Posted by Scimitar
Selling stock you do not own to anonymous buyers for an interest based profit which fluctuates is haraam.
Stock broker do sales by order from the stocks owner. Being sales representative like this is allowed in Islam. What forbidden is selling someone's stuff without order from the stuff owner.
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kritikvernunft
07-20-2016, 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
The stock market has very little to do with investing, otherwise you would leave your money in a company for years, and you would also have a concern for that company. Is gambling evil?
Greetings and peace Eric. Good question! Does the Quran outlaw gambling explicitly? A ban on gambling would indeed explain the problem. I have been able to find this:

Quran 2:219. They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses [of revelation] that you might give thought.

Quran 5:90-91.
O who you believe! Intoxicants (e.g. alcohol) and gambling and idols and (lottery by) arrows are an abomination of Satan’s work, so avoid them so that you may get salvation. Satan's only desire is to create among you enmity and hatred by means of intoxicants and gambling and stop you from praying and remembering Allah. Will you not then desist?

So, there is certainly no doubt about the religious status of gambling. The Quranic text condemns this practice as Satanic behaviour.

Originally Posted by Eric H
Because the stock market benefits from the principles of gambling, by trying to stack the odds in your favour, before you place your bet.
There can obviously not be a blanket ban on "doing something that could also go wrong", because approximately everything we do, could go wrong in one way or another. So, there would indeed be a problem as to what exactly the term gambling means.

There is a big argument in the USA, indeed exactly over the definition of the term gambling, with hundreds of millions of dollars at stake, where online daily fantasy sports operators such as FanDuel and DraftKings argue that their games do not constitute gambling because there is skill involved, while the state regulators do not agree, and want to ban these games.

The game operators argue that the players are not gambling, because the games require skills. Here you can find a few articles about the issue:




Investors in the stock market could use a similar argument, and claim that what they do, mostly requires "skill" to do that successfully. In the articles, you can find lots of counter-arguments against that kind of claims, but then in the context of online daily fantasy sports.

So, the question rather becomes, is there is generally-accepted fiqh that classifies investing in the stock market as gambling ?
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HGT
07-20-2016, 02:13 PM
As salam Alaikum, trading stocks is considered gambling and addictive. Many have committed suicide and keeps your mind wondering. All you are doing is money laundry for dajjals companies.
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greenhill
07-20-2016, 04:00 PM
Playing in the stock market is like gambling. The fluctuation of the price in most cases does not reflect true value. Largely speculation. I consider that gambling.

(Although I do like br Ardianto's distinction) but speculating on share prices is straight forward gambling.


:peace:
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AwanTaqwa
07-20-2016, 11:46 PM
Why gambling is haram. In all business we do calculation but there is also speculation. In business parties who involves will gain value of the business transactions. It could be the goods, profit or service.

In gambling and lottery the parties involve will try to beat each other. One party gain benefit and the other party got nothing. Hence there us a winner and looser in gambling/lottery. This make it a haram activity. In Islam we must help each other, not to beat each other.

Please correct me if I am wrong!
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Tim_the_Plumber
07-21-2016, 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
Well, in the business model at stake you can buy 1 million dollars worth of put options on IBM, and then find someone to bomb their global headquarters (or do it by yourself), then watch how the share price drops in value right in front of you, and then cash in on your put options, now probably worth at least 5+ million dollars.
This is a one-way bet. Your investment strategy will always be in the money.
Stock markets are evil, since they allow you to make lots of money, just by killing lots of people.
My question is now: Why is it even possible to do that?
In all other cases, there was an explanation readily available: the other business models rest on riba/interests. So, it is absolutely normal that they have utmost evil outcomes. In this case, the explanation is not trivial. There is fundamentally something evil about stock markets, but it is not clear to me what fundamental misbehaviour is at stake here.

Of course, math looks like gibberish; and sofware source code even more so.
That is certainly one reason why I make so much money.
If everybody could understand what I do for a living, everybody would be making lots of money.
You and I know, that this is, of course, not the case.

This kind of things does not make you a sucker, believe me, but a millionaire, and in some cases, like if you are Mark Zuckerberg, Sergey Brinn, or Larry Page, even a hunderds-of-billionaire. If it were simple to produce half a trillion dollars of value (Google, Facebook, Apple), everybody would do it, no? It requires a deep understanding of things that look like gibberish! That's why so few people are willing and capable of doing this, and why the ones who do, are so bloody rich! ;-)

In fact, I like philosophizing much more than making money. If the reverse were the case, I would be trying to make some more money instead of philosophizing here, wouldn't I? So, I doubt that I will ever become a hunderds-of-billionaire. I don't care, because I would not know what to spend that kind of money on anyway. Maybe on getting some more time to philosophize? ;-)
The value of paper money rests on the belief that its emitter will not debase its value by emitting more of it. Therefore, it represents the false pagan belief that the national state can be trusted. Consequently, it is a form of polytheism ("shirk"). Furthermore, Theory of Deception says that it is the aggregate belief itself in the deceptive statement (a=b) -- large numbers of people really believing it -- that fuels the growth in the total amount of deception (b-a)². This then explains Voltaire's Law. The complete destruction of the value of paper money, occurs because all false pagan beliefs ultimately and completely backfire.
If you write that you have no idea about maths.

When you say you are a millionare I think you are not telling the truth.

If you had any understanding of what a=b and (a-b)2 was you would not have posted it as it is zero. a-b (where b is the same as a) = 0. Zero squared is still nothing.
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kritikvernunft
07-21-2016, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber
If you write that you have no idea about maths. When you say you are a millionare I think you are not telling the truth.
Ok. Let's see if you have any math skills, since you have the temerity of judging other people on theirs. :shade:

As an example, let us establish that it is not hard for me to prove that I control the following bitcoin address:

https://blockchain.info/address/1FMz...v6WiDnBb38kuAP

For the message: Hello
A signature is: G9//wD67GIpQEsmAohXKmVK4v6eIegV9/AQEMQLJRewOcfHR8eiHaMXtoM/rZTsWevqjYIMYYScZWgyrjrOGGw4=

There are obviously an almost infinitely large number of signatures that can all be traced back to the same private key, and therefore bitcoin address.

Here you can verify that this signature is indeed valid: verification.

Therefore, you know that I control this bitcoin address, and hence that I control the money that it contains. In other words, I would certainly be able to prove that I own a particular amount of money. I obviously have other assets too, besides bitcoin, but for those it would be much more difficult to establish value and prove ownership. Only for cryptocurrencies, it is trivial to do so. But then again, if you had a million dollar or more, you would know this! ;-)

Of course, I could move all my coins into one address and prove that I own them ...
There is, however, a warning against using private keys -- that also control money -- for signing. Signing weakens Bitcoin security?
I need a better incentive. Seriously, why would I do that?

Furthermore, I may control much more money than I own. Therefore, I could easily deceive you, because the money is not mine. You would only know how much I would be able to steal from other people! ;-)

By the way, since you are so good at math, what is my public key?

Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber
If you had any understanding of what a=b and (a-b)2 was you would not have posted it as it is zero. a-b (where b is the same as a) = 0. Zero squared is still nothing.
The deceptive statement is: a=b.

What does that mean "deceptive"? It obviously means that it is not true. So, these people believe that a=b, but in reality a is not equal to b. That is why it is called "deceptive".

How do you represent a difference, aka, the actual deception?

You could pick the expression a-b, but there is a problem with that. The deception represented by a-b and by b-a are equally large, but they have opposite signs. So, in order to get rid of the sign, what better function would you use to represent a difference?

A variance, of course: (a-b)²

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variance

The actual magnitude does not matter. You could also pick (a-b)²/4 as a measure for deception. or r*(a-b)² with r an arbitrary constant. Absolute values never mean anything anyway.

These people believe in the deceptive statement because they trust its source. However, it is the aggregate trust itself in a source that makes the source such an interesting target for subversion. The more people trust it, and the more they trust it, the more it is attractive to subvert it, and therefore, the more likely that it has been completely subverted already. That is why it is the belief itself in the deceptive statement that fuels the growth in the deception.

The religious corollary is that there is only one, single source that cannot be subverted: the One God. Everything else will just turn into a bigger lie, the more you believe it.

In fact, it gives the impression that it is our collective belief in the One God that powers the expansion of the universe. This is actually not inconsistent with the claim above, because claiming that the real world corresponds to the truth, is by definition just an arbitrary choice.
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Scimitar
07-21-2016, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Investment is halal. Transferring (selling) investment to other party is halal, because this is trading. Buying commodity and sell it again when the price increased is halal too.
What haram is if you were cheating in stock trading like commit insider trading or spread false rumors.

Stock broker do sales by order from the stocks owner. Being sales representative like this is allowed in Islam. What forbidden is selling someone's stuff without order from the stuff owner.[/QUOTE]

I read this comment online and will post it here, for your consideration:

Originally Posted by random comment from a Muslim online

down vote
Assalamualaikum. The following comment is based on what I came to understand from Islamic talks I attended in the aftermath of the SE Asia stock market collapse which as many will remember, was the playground of the speculators. There are certain rules to Islamic transaction. Sorry that I can't provide evidence from Quran and hadeeth as much of this was discussed many years ago. Never-the-less, events in the life of the Prophet (saw) should justify many of these reasons.
-Offer and acceptance in buying and selling. -Contracts such as those that start a company should have termination terms and clauses. -A business should not trade given a specified time frame to make loss. -Dealing in goods or services should be here and now. -It should benefit the Muslims. -Partners in a company should know respective members.
These rules pretty much relegates the formation or involvement in PLCs. Sorry if this offends any Muslims who work in investment banks. However, we should be aware that Islamic economics is based on a Gold standard and 'cleaver dickie' playing the game or acceptance of the status quo will lead Muslims to ruin as is happening in the world.
The success of a Muslim is not the wealth in his pocket and the ends do not justify the means. InshAllah someone can see sense in these comments.
JazakAllah Khair for reading.

Speculating share markets is haraam in itself, let alone actually trading on that platform. There used to be a better way, once... then, there was this.

Scimi
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ardianto
07-21-2016, 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Speculating share markets is haraam in itself, let alone actually trading on that platform. There used to be a better way, once... then, there was this.

Scimi
Stock market is a marketplace where you can buy shares of a company to invest your money. You can also sell your shares to anyone who interested to buy. When you sell your shares, the price probably higher than when you bought, and you get profit. But it also can be lower, and you get loss. Stock market is a place where we can trade the shares. This is a place of trading.

One thing you must remember, you should be wise when invest your money through stock market. Use deep analysis, use good calculation. Do not speculate because speculation will destroy you. Unfortunately there are people who ignore this. They use stock market as arena of speculation, and they lost their money.

Stock market was created as place of investment, not as arena of speculation. If there are people who speculate in stock market, this is not the stock market fault, but their fault.

:)
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kritikvernunft
07-21-2016, 11:11 PM
Salaam Scimi, In the video, Tisu Miku says that stock markets which would trade in the shares of businesses that are halal, are also halal. Of course, as he correctly remarks, very few businesses traded anywhere on any stock exchange around the world are halal, because they engage in interest/riba-infested business practices.

Still, imagine that you have a halal stock market only trading shares in halal companies. The ugly scenario described earlier on, would still be possible. You could still take a short position on any such halal company, carry out an ugly attack against it, and cash in on the resulting decrease in its share price. This risk is created exactly by the existence of a stock market and of course an associated derivative contract market. Without stock market, it would not be possible to engage in that kind of mischief.

In other words, even a halal stock market would carry the seeds of its own destruction, because people can still make lots of money by engaging in horrible mischief. How can a system be fundamentally halal, if in this system, the more people you kill, the more money you make?

Hence, there seems to be something wrong with stock markets, even if all companies in which they trade, are halal. Hence, there could be reasons why stock markets are fundamentally haraam, even if they trade in the shares of halal companies only.

The stock market behaves like ultimately every false god tends to do, by demanding human sacrifice and incentivizing you to kill its own believers. At the same time, if you shun trading with companies whose shares are listed in the stock market, it does not make sense to sacrifice you, because doing so would not affect the company's profits and hence its share price. Therefore, if you are a non-believer of the stock market, it will not threaten to sacrifice you.

The interest/riba banking system is also a dangerous false god. Rogue staff working in these banks can make money by faking the last transactions on your account after you die. So, if the rogue staff get the information that an account holder is dead, it becomes easy for them to back-date withdrawals and outgoing payments, because the only person who could complain that these transactions are fake, is dead now. From there, the next step is very small: Why not kill the account holder, so that you can fake his final transactions? The more money that the account holder holds in the bank, the more interesting it becomes to do that. Therefore, rich account holders can perfectly-well expect that it is their own bank that will kill them. So, the stronger the false belief (=amount of money trusted to a bank), the stronger the deception (=the likelihood that rogue bank staff will kill you). In other words, like every sufficiently-powerful false god, the banking system has a strong incentive to orchestrate the murder of its own customers.
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Tim_the_Plumber
07-22-2016, 07:37 AM
Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
Ok. Let's see if you have any math skills, since you have the temerity of judging other people on theirs. :shade:

As an example, let us establish that it is not hard for me to prove that I control the following bitcoin address:

Virus site removed

For the message: Hello
A signature is: Virus site removed
There are obviously an almost infinitely large number of signatures that can all be traced back to the same private key, and therefore bitcoin address.

Here you can verify that this signature is indeed valid: Deleted

Therefore, you know that I control this bitcoin address, and hence that I control the money that it contains. In other words, I would certainly be able to prove that I own a particular amount of money. I obviously have other assets too, besides bitcoin, but for those it would be much more difficult to establish value and prove ownership. Only for cryptocurrencies, it is trivial to do so. But then again, if you had a million dollar or more, you would know this! ;-)

Of course, I could move all my coins into one address and prove that I own them ...
There is, however, a warning against using private keys -- that also control money -- for signing. Deleted
I need a better incentive. Seriously, why would I do that?

Furthermore, I may control much more money than I own. Therefore, I could easily deceive you, because the money is not mine. You would only know how much I would be able to steal from other people! ;-)

By the way, since you are so good at math, what is my public key?


The deceptive statement is: a=b.

What does that mean "deceptive"? It obviously means that it is not true. So, these people believe that a=b, but in reality a is not equal to b. That is why it is called "deceptive".

How do you represent a difference, aka, the actual deception?

You could pick the expression a-b, but there is a problem with that. The deception represented by a-b and by b-a are equally large, but they have opposite signs. So, in order to get rid of the sign, what better function would you use to represent a difference?

A variance, of course: (a-b)²

Deleted

The actual magnitude does not matter. You could also pick (a-b)²/4 as a measure for deception. or r*(a-b)² with r an arbitrary constant. Absolute values never mean anything anyway.

These people believe in the deceptive statement because they trust its source. However, it is the aggregate trust itself in a source that makes the source such an interesting target for subversion. The more people trust it, and the more they trust it, the more it is attractive to subvert it, and therefore, the more likely that it has been completely subverted already. That is why it is the belief itself in the deceptive statement that fuels the growth in the deception.

The religious corollary is that there is only one, single source that cannot be subverted: the One God. Everything else will just turn into a bigger lie, the more you believe it.

In fact, it gives the impression that it is our collective belief in the One God that powers the expansion of the universe. This is actually not inconsistent with the claim above, because claiming that the real world corresponds to the truth, is by definition just an arbitrary choice.
This a fishing attempt to get people to click onto a site that will give your computer a virus.

I strongly reccomend that this poster is banned.
Reply

kritikvernunft
07-22-2016, 08:21 AM
Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber
This a fishing attempt to get people to click onto a site that will give your computer a virus. I strongly reccomend that this poster is banned.
“And they who do not bear witness to what is false....” (Surah al-Furqān 25:72)
“...These shall be regarded with high places...” (Surah al-Furqān 25:75)
“...therefore avoid the uncleanness of the idols and avoid false words.” (Surah Hajj 22:30)

The Holy Prophet (S) says, “To testify falsely tantamounts to polytheism.” It is mentioned in Tafsīr Abdul al-Fath Razi that the Holy Prophet (S) repeated this statement thrice and then quoted the above ayat (Surah Hajj 22:30)

Could someone verify that NOT one single of the links that I mentioned is a virus site? According to Sharia Law, that should allow us to call this person for what he really is, that is, a stinking, filthy dog of his utmost detestable pagan ("kufr") race.
Reply

kritikvernunft
07-22-2016, 08:49 AM
Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber
This a fishing attempt to get people to click onto a site that will give your computer a virus. I strongly reccomend that this poster is banned.
I have mentioned exactly 4 links in my post. Concerning your accusation, I have created a scanurl report for each url:

scanurl.net: Check website or URL/link safety: reports of phishing, hosting malware and viruses, unwanted software, or poor reputation.

In each of the following reports, you will find the following standard mention:

It's probably safe to visit the website/URL you entered. None of the services we checked with report it as suspicious.

Here are the 4 scanurl.net reports for my urls:



This is full proof that there is nothing wrong with any of these urls.
This is full proof that you are bearing false witness.

Therefore, in accordance with Sharia Law and the provisions in the Quranic text concerning this particular criminal offense ("false accusations"), these reports are full proof that you are a filthy pagan dog of your utmost destestable and accursed race of kufr animals.
Reply

Tim_the_Plumber
07-22-2016, 09:16 AM
Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
“And they who do not bear witness to what is false....” (Surah al-Furqān 25:72)
“...These shall be regarded with high places...” (Surah al-Furqān 25:75)
“...therefore avoid the uncleanness of the idols and avoid false words.” (Surah Hajj 22:30)

The Holy Prophet (S) says, “To testify falsely tantamounts to polytheism.” It is mentioned in Tafsīr Abdul al-Fath Razi that the Holy Prophet (S) repeated this statement thrice and then quoted the above ayat (Surah Hajj 22:30)

Could someone verify that NOT one single of the links that I mentioned is a virus site? According to Sharia Law, that should allow us to call this person for what he really is, that is, a stinking, filthy dog of his utmost detestable pagan ("kufr") race.
The trouble with the internet is that it allows the mad to convince themselves that they are clever.

The trouble with Islam is it allows the mad (and the rest) to consider the opinions of non-Muslims to be unimportant. And thelives of others equally unimportant. If the others are Muslim, well, just define them as the worng sort of Muslim and hay presto!
Reply

kritikvernunft
07-22-2016, 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber
The trouble with the internet is that it allows the mad to convince themselves that they are clever.
Your problem is that the internet keeps a record of what you say. Therefore, you cannot revoke your written statements. A lot of people like you have a big problem with that. You obviously have a long-standing habit of scheming, lying, and blackmouthing. It does not work that well on the internet, because everybody can see what you are doing. You say something verifiable with the purpose of blackmouthing, and what you have said, can trivially be verified to be a lie. You are utterly dumb. You are an imbecile.

Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber
The trouble with Islam is it allows the mad (and the rest) to consider the opinions of non-Muslims to be unimportant. And thelives of others equally unimportant. If the others are Muslim, well, just define them as the worng sort of Muslim and hay presto!
There is no religion in the world in which it is permissible for you to bear false witness or to make false accusations. Just read this here:

Exodus 20:1–17, Deuteronomy 5:4–21 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" is the ninth of the Ten Commandments, which are widely understood as moral imperatives by legal scholars, Jewish scholars, Catholic scholars, and Post-Reformation scholars. The book of Exodus describes the Ten Commandments as being spoken by God, inscribed on two stone tablets by the finger of God, broken by Moses, and rewritten on replacements stones by the LORD.

Proverbs 6:16–19: There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Therefore, in accordance with Biblical provisions, your wholesale condemnation implies that you are an abominable individual, with a detestable lying tongue, who devises wicked plans. You are a false witness who breathes out lies. In accordance with Biblical determinations, you must be rejected, shunned, reprobated, excommunicated, and denied because you are an accursed and utterly detestable liar.
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aamirsaab
07-25-2016, 08:40 PM
The ruling on riba isn't confined to interest in and of itself, although it does encompass that.

The ruling in simple terms is: the closer the two items of trade, the greater the risk of that transaction being riba (impermissible)

I.e;
X for </> X = riba
X for </> Y = permitted transaction


With stock market, you are buying and selling a currency for another. Whilst a GBP is not a USD (so technically this is an X for Y trade) the underlying principle of the afformentioned ruling renders this transaction as riba (ya boi got tongue twisters!) as we are trading a medium of exchange (therefore X to X transaction). Hence stock market is impermissible.

Source: I have an MA in Islamic Finance.
Reply

kritikvernunft
07-26-2016, 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Whilst a GBP is not a USD (so technically this is an X for Y trade) the underlying principle of the afformentioned ruling renders this transaction as riba (ya boi got tongue twisters!) as we are trading a medium of exchange (therefore X to X transaction).
It sounds like it would be forbidden to exchange GBP to USD, but what if you are a British resident in need of visiting the USA? You only have GBP. How will we you get hold of USD for the purpose of your visit? It almost sounds like something like travel itself would be forbidden ...
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ardianto
07-26-2016, 01:46 AM
Honestly, I didn't read the original post. So I thought it's about stock market where companies sell their shares, but then I notice actually it's about currency exchange. :)

But about currency exchange itself, many scholars allow it as long as in cash and done at the moment, without delay like in "Forward", or in other form like in "Swap", or "Option" transaction.
Reply

talibilm
07-26-2016, 01:48 AM
Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
It sounds like it would be forbidden to exchange GBP to USD, but what if you are a British resident in need of visiting the USA? You only have GBP. How will we you get hold of USD for the purpose of your visit? It almost sounds like something like travel itself would be forbidden ...

:sl:

Hope this hadith would enlighten us in this issue inshallah, Kindly discuss .jzk.

Dawud :: Book 22 : Hadith 3348
Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: I used to sell camels at al-Baqi for dinars and take dirhams for them, and sell for dirhams and take dinars for them. I would take these for these and give these for these. I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who was in the house of Hafsah. I said: Apostle of Allah , take it easy, I shall ask you (a question): I sell camels at al-Baqi'. I sell (them) for dinars and take dirhams and I sell for dirhams and take dinars. I take these for these, and give these for these. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) then said: There is no harm in taking them at the current rate so long as you do not separate leaving something to be settled.
Reply

kritikvernunft
07-26-2016, 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by talibilm
as you do not separate leaving something to be settled.
Ha! This is indeed what reveals the real problem!
Derivatives are not allowed. That is clear now. They are clearly haram.
There is another problem with implementing this, however.
Imagine that I buy boxes with apples, get them delivered now, but I pay only in 30 days.

Is this forbidden?

That would be a problem, because a lot of retail works like this. The shop gets 30 days to sell the products and then pays the supplier from the money has received from the shoppers. A lot of wholesalers use the "trick" to get retail shops to sell their products for them. For the shops, is almost as important as the margin that they would be able to make on the sales. Quite a bit of retail would be a problem without this. There is a strong temptation for wholesalers and shops to do this. Is it haram?
Reply

aamirsaab
07-26-2016, 05:06 AM
Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
Ha! This is indeed what reveals the real problem!
Derivatives are not allowed. That is clear now. They are clearly haram.
There is another problem with implementing this, however.
Imagine that I buy boxes with apples, get them delivered now, but I pay only in 30 days.

Is this forbidden?

That would be a problem, because a lot of retail works like this. The shop gets 30 days to sell the products and then pays the supplier from the money has received from the shoppers. A lot of wholesalers use the "trick" to get retail shops to sell their products for them. For the shops, is almost as important as the margin that they would be able to make on the sales. Quite a bit of retail would be a problem without this. There is a strong temptation for wholesalers and shops to do this. Is it haram?
Delayed or immediate payment in and of themselves do not equate to halal or haram. In the example quoted, there is a verbal or written trade contract in place which strongly implies that the goods will be paid for by a certain date and the transaction will be settled - both parties know this going in and have agreed to it so the transaction would be deemed permissible. (btw I think we are straying away too much from the topic of stock markets...)
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