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kritikvernunft
07-22-2016, 03:49 AM
As you know, there is a medical claim that says that the HIV virus causes AIDS. Now, it would technically not be difficult or particularly hard to test this claim using the scientific method. Just experimentally inject enough people with the HIV virus and then check if they develop AIDS or not. Seriously, the problem with scientific validation for claims about incurable diseases is almost never technical.

As you know, it is not allowed by the scientific method to just establish correlations, and collect observations from the real world that give the impression that cause and consequence are related. The scientific method insists that you must (experimentally) trigger the cause, and then observe the consequence.

Doctor Mengele is a famous example of a doctor who truly, experimentally tested medical theories in the Auschwitz concentration camp. Doctor Mengele would certainly not hesitate to publish a truly scientific report, detailing why HIV would cause AIDS, along with the habitual invitation to duly repeat his experiments in order to find counterexamples for his findings. Doctor Mengele was undoubtedly a great scientist, but his work is still considered to be quite problematic, to say the least.

There are issues concerning the practice of establishing a truly scientific -- and therefore experimental basis -- for medical claims about incurable diseases. By the way, has anybody ever really seen a truly scientific -- and therefore experimental -- report validating the claim that the HIV virus causes AIDS?

I would be most interested in reading this report. Also, do not forget to mention in what detention facility we can visit the scientist who was so friendly to produce it! ;-)
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Tim_the_Plumber
07-22-2016, 07:31 AM
Given that injecting people with HIV would be murder it would be done by anybody with any sense of doing good not evil.

Given that people with HIV in them go on to get AIDs and thos without it don't we do not need to do the above to say with a very very high level of certainty that HIV is the virus that causes AIDs.

Not all science is done as simply as in the biology class you had at the age of 13.
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kritikvernunft
07-22-2016, 08:05 AM
Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber
Given that people with HIV in them go on to get AIDs and thos without it don't we do not need to do the above to say with a very very high level of certainty that HIV is the virus that causes AIDs.
Well, it may sound cruel, but the scientific method says that you must experimentally trigger the effect. Otherwise, it is not science. In other cases, it may actually be technically hard to trigger anything, but in this case there is obviously another reason why science is not readily possible. What is certainly not allowed, is to gloss over the fact that science is not permitted in this case, and proceed by calling the claim scientific anyway. Doing that, does not help nor solve the problem. My point of view is that it is better to acknowledge that the claim cannot be scientific, and just explain why.
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Tim_the_Plumber
07-22-2016, 09:12 AM
Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
Well, it may sound cruel, but the scientific method says that you must experimentally trigger the effect. Otherwise, it is not science. In other cases, it may actually be technically hard to trigger anything, but in this case there is obviously another reason why science is not readily possible. What is certainly not allowed, is to gloss over the fact that science is not permitted in this case, and proceed by calling the claim scientific anyway. Doing that, does not help nor solve the problem. My point of view is that it is better to acknowledge that the claim cannot be scientific, and just explain why.
You have no understanding of science.

It is not possible to isolate and test in the lab manay many aspects of nature. Lots of science has to be done by looking at the natural world. Consider climate science. How do you do any of that in an isolated lab?

Given that all those with AIDs have HIV and that HIV is very rare this is very strong evidence that HIV is the cause of AIDs.
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Steven Caro
07-22-2016, 09:22 AM
'Doctor Mengele was undoubtedly a great scientist'. Are you mentally ill?
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Tim_the_Plumber
07-22-2016, 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by Steven Caro
'Doctor Mengele was undoubtedly a great scientist'. Are you mentally ill?
In defence of him, he was a good scientist (well, good at science). Evil and very nasty but the science he did was sound.

As was lots of the research generated by the Nazi's. Using humans is the best way to find out about the human body.

Just evil when you do destruction testing on them to see how humans cope with low air pressure and high gee for example. But the results are very sound....
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Scimitar
07-22-2016, 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber
It is not possible to isolate and test in the lab many aspects of nature. Lots of science has to be done by looking at the natural world. Consider climate science. How do you do any of that in an isolated lab?
Cue computer programs designed to simulate paleoclimatological experiments

Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber
You have no understanding of science.
careful with that statement :D might just bite ya back.

Scimi
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Tim_the_Plumber
07-22-2016, 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Cue computer programs designed to simulate paleoclimatological experiments



careful with that statement :D might just bite ya back.

Scimi
Maybe but I don't claim to have all the knowledge of science.
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Scimitar
07-22-2016, 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber
Maybe but I don't claim to have all the knowledge of science.
Who does? :D

Do you see why your statements make little sense to us?

Scimi
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Tim_the_Plumber
07-22-2016, 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber Maybe but I don't claim to have all the knowledge of science.
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Who does? :D

Do you see why your statements make little sense to us?

Scimi
Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
Well, it may sound cruel, but the scientific method says that you must experimentally trigger the effect. Otherwise, it is not science.
There are those who do.
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Serinity
07-22-2016, 05:31 PM
There is definitely a cure. we just need to find it. :D There is not a disease except there is a cure for it. Except Death. Afaik.

Allahu alam.
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Scimitar
07-22-2016, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber
There are those who do.
I'm pretty sure krikit was referencing the Scientific Methodology and not making a claim to "have all the knowledge of science."

Scimi
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Tim_the_Plumber
07-23-2016, 09:37 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
I'm pretty sure krikit was referencing the Scientific Methodology and not making a claim to "have all the knowledge of science."

Scimi
The scientific methodology generally defies definition as there are exceptions to be found however you word it.

The best I have is;

Try to ask clear questions, making very sure you understand your own question first, then try to look at what the real world produces as an answer. Try to avoid being too attached to stuff you know now because they it is often wrong.
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Scimitar
07-23-2016, 12:21 PM
Originally Posted by Tim_the_Plumber
The scientific methodology generally defies definition as there are exceptions to be found however you word it.

The best I have is;

Try to ask clear questions, making very sure you understand your own question first, then try to look at what the real world produces as an answer. Try to avoid being too attached to stuff you know now because they it is often wrong.


Scimi
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