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Mustafa16
08-20-2016, 09:57 PM
I said on here that they believe Christians and jews can go to heaven, but I'm not sure now if that's really true or if that's a rumor. So they might believe Christians and Jews go to heaven, but that is unconfirmed...... here are some links....
http://www.gulenmovement.us/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClen_movement
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M.I.A.
08-20-2016, 10:00 PM
well the Jews said... badly paraphrased.. that heaven was only for them..

let's learn what not to do at least!

say to the Jews, if you believe then long for death, but they will not because they know what there hands have put forth..

my grammar is off.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
08-20-2016, 10:11 PM
This Ummah will split into 73 sects. That is what Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم informed us.

Now, the `Ulamaa of Arabic have mentioned something with regards to the usage of the number 70 in Arabic, and that is: The number 70 can be used in one of two ways:

1) Literally (it is actually 70). Or

2) To denote a very large number, i.e. "So-and-so has 70 cars." The person could actually have 500 cars, yet an Arab would say "70", because 70 is understood in Arabic to sometimes be referring simply to a very large number.

Based on that, this Ummah could either split into 73 sects (which would mean that only the major sects count, and smaller sects would not count and thus not form part of the 73), or 2) 73 is referring to a large number, and it means that a lot of sects will arise within this Ummah.

Allaahu A`lam.

If it is the second meaning, then the Gulen movement could be regarded as one of those sects.
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Mustafa16
08-20-2016, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
This Ummah will split into 73 sects. That is what Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم informed us.

Now, the `Ulamaa of Arabic have mentioned something with regards to the usage of the number 70 in Arabic, and that is: The number 70 can be used in one of two ways:

1) Literally (it is actually 70). Or

2) To denote a very large number, i.e. "So-and-so has 70 cars." The person could actually have 500 cars, yet an Arab would say "70", because 70 is understood in Arabic to sometimes be referring simply to a very large number.

Based on that, this Ummah could either split into 73 sects (which would mean that only the major sects count, and smaller sects would not count and thus not form part of the 73), or 2) 73 is referring to a large number, and it means that a lot of sects will arise within this Ummah.

Allaahu A`lam.

If it is the second meaning, then the Gulen movement could be regarded as one of those sects.
could you please explain why the gulen movement is one of those deviant sects? keep in mind I grew up surrounded by gulenists, and still am, and so switching to mainstream Islam will be harder for me.....
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M.I.A.
08-20-2016, 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
This Ummah will split into 73 sects. That is what Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم informed us.

Now, the `Ulamaa of Arabic have mentioned something with regards to the usage of the number 70 in Arabic, and that is: The number 70 can be used in one of two ways:

1) Literally (it is actually 70). Or

2) To denote a very large number, i.e. "So-and-so has 70 cars." The person could actually have 500 cars, yet an Arab would say "70", because 70 is understood in Arabic to sometimes be referring simply to a very large number.

Based on that, this Ummah could either split into 73 sects (which would mean that only the major sects count, and smaller sects would not count and thus not form part of the 73), or 2) 73 is referring to a large number, and it means that a lot of sects will arise within this Ummah.

Allaahu A`lam.

If it is the second meaning, then the Gulen movement could be regarded as one of those sects.
..lol I wonder how much I may have lost in translation and subtle nuances.

many thanks.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
08-20-2016, 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by Mustafa16
could you please explain why the gulen movement is one of those deviant sects? keep in mind I grew up surrounded by gulenists, and still am, and so switching to mainstream Islam will be harder for me.....
1) Modernist views.

2) Belief in democracy.

3) Believing Jews and Christians can go to Jannah.

Someone who has done some research into the Gulen movement can list many more points, I'm sure.

In any case, the movement is a deviant one.

Stay far away from all sects and sectarianism. Follow Islaam the way Sahaabah-e-Kiraam followed Islaam.
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islamirama
08-20-2016, 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
This Ummah will split into 73 sects. That is what Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم informed us.

Now, the `Ulamaa of Arabic have mentioned something with regards to the usage of the number 70 in Arabic, and that is: The number 70 can be used in one of two ways:
I have always regarded as literal, even the hadiths are evident of that.

The famous hadeeth about the ummah splitting into seventy-three sects bears witness to that.


It was narrated from Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stood among us and said: “Those who came before you of the people of the Book split into seventy-two sects, and this ummah will split into seventy-three: seventy-two in Hell and one in Paradise, and that is the jamaa’ah (main body of Muslims).”


Narrated by Abu Dawood (4597) and others; classed as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/128), who said: it is an important hadeeth that represents a basic principle. It was classed as hasan by Ibn Hajar in Takhreej al-Kashshaaf (63). It was classed as saheeh by Ibn Taymiyah in Majmoo’ al-Fataawa (3/345), al-Shaatibi in al-I’tisaam (1/430), and al-‘Iraaqi in Takhreej al-Ihya’ (9/133). It is mentioned frequently and often quoted as evidence by the scholars in the books of Sunnah, and it was narrated from a number of the Sahaabah via many isnaads, most of the soundest of which specify the number of sects as being seventy-three.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:


Similarly, with the other seventy-two groups, those that are hypocrites are inwardly kaafirs, and those that are not hypocrites but rather believe inwardly in Allaah and His Messenger are not inwardly kaafirs, even though they are mistaken in their interpretations, regardless of what that mistake may be. Some of them may have some of the branches of hypocrisy, or they may not have the kind of hypocrisy that dooms a man to the lowest depths of Hell.


The one who says that each of the seventy-two sects is guilty of kufr that puts one beyond the pale of Islam is going against the Qur’aan and Sunnah and the consensus of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them all), and the consensus of the four imams and others. None of them regarded any of the seventy-two sects as kaafirs, rather they regard one another as kaafirs.

Majmoo’ al-Fataawa (7/218).


This does not mean that every sect that calls itself Muslim is actually Muslim, rather they may be kaafirs and apostates, such as the extreme Raafidis, the extreme Sufis and the baatini sects such as the Druze, Nusayris and others. These are all beyond the pale of Islam and are not regarded as being among the sects mentioned in the hadeeth.


https://islamqa.info/en/90112
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crimsontide06
08-21-2016, 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam


3) Believing Jews and Christians can go to Jannah.
Is this different from saying that Non-Muslims who did not know anything about Islam(aside from what they saw on tv), will be tested?
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cooterhein
08-21-2016, 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
1) Modernist views.

2) Belief in democracy.

3) Believing Jews and Christians can go to Jannah.

Someone who has done some research into the Gulen movement can list many more points, I'm sure.

In any case, the movement is a deviant one.

Stay far away from all sects and sectarianism. Follow Islaam the way Sahaabah-e-Kiraam followed Islaam.
I'm curious to know about the belief that some non-Muslim women will escape hellfire and be the sex slaves of Muslim men. Is that an acceptable belief, or is it deviant? It seems insane to me either way, but I honestly don't know if that's accepted by mainstream Islam.

The broad rejection of modernism and democracy also seems like it's not a winning strategy. But I don't doubt that those are considered deviant by mainstream Islam, at least for now.

"Abu Umama said, Allah be well-pleased with him: The Messenger of Allah said, upon him blessings and peace: “None is made to enter Paradise by Allah Most High except Allah Most High shall marry him to seventy-two wives, two of them from the wide-eyed maidens of Paradise and seventy of them his inheritance from the People of Hellfire, not one of them but her attraction never lags nor his arousal ever wanes.”
Ibn Majah, Ibn `Adi in the Kamil, and al-Bayhaqi in al-Ba`th wal-Nushur.


I have no idea who or what that source is, but if it's familiar to you I'd like to know if it's a source that you would trust or if you would consider it deviant.

Also, is this a good source? http://www.webcitation.org/64zXNO08I
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
08-21-2016, 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by crimsontide06
Is this different from saying that Non-Muslims who did not know anything about Islam(aside from what they saw on tv), will be tested?
These days, the excuse of not knowing about Islaam can't be used. People have access to TVs, the internet, books, etc. Anyone wanting to learn about Islaam can do so very easily with minimal effort. We are not speaking about people living in some remote jungle who've never seen other humans.

No. In our time, everyone will be taken to task for not learning about Islaam because Allaah Ta`aalaa has made knowledge so very easily available. Never before in the history of the world was information so easily accessible as it is today. What excuse can there then be for not learning and acquiring that knowledge and information?

Anyone who really wants to learn about Islaam can do so. If they do not, it is simply because they've never had an interest in seeking the Truth.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
08-21-2016, 01:43 PM
There are millions of Islaamic books and articles available online; thousands of YouTube videos on Islaam; hundreds of websites and forums. The information is within the reach of every single person, yet no one wants to make an effort.

In the past, people would travel around the world seeking knowledge. They made that effort. These days, when it's so easy to acquire knowledge, people have become too lazy.
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crimsontide06
08-21-2016, 03:05 PM
I disagree. If I was a non-Muslim, and all I saw from newspapers,news...etc was shootings, suicide bombers, rape, the mistreatment of women....etc then I would have no desire to learn anything more. I would have seen all I need to see. Especially with a group like isis who proclaim Islam. Who would WANT to learn about Islam after all that??

That is the mindset of non-Muslims. They see Islam as this evil force that wants to wreck havoc on earth. Are they ignorant? yes....but they have no reason to learn about Islam.


Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
These days, the excuse of not knowing about Islaam can't be used. People have access to TVs, the internet, books, etc. Anyone wanting to learn about Islaam can do so very easily with minimal effort. We are not speaking about people living in some remote jungle who've never seen other humans.

No. In our time, everyone will be taken to task for not learning about Islaam because Allaah Ta`aalaa has made knowledge so very easily available. Never before in the history of the world was information so easily accessible as it is today. What excuse can there then be for not learning and acquiring that knowledge and information?

Anyone who really wants to learn about Islaam can do so. If they do not, it is simply because they've never had an interest in seeking the Truth.
Reply

Huzaifah ibn Adam
08-21-2016, 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by crimsontide06
I disagree. If I was a non-Muslim, and all I saw from newspapers,news...etc was shootings, suicide bombers, rape, the mistreatment of women....etc then I would have no desire to learn anything more. I would have seen all I need to see. Especially with a group like isis who proclaim Islam. Who would WANT to learn about Islam after all that??

That is the mindset of non-Muslims. They see Islam as this evil force that wants to wreck havoc on earth. Are they ignorant? yes....but they have no reason to learn about Islam.
They still won't be excused. The resources were available for them to learn about Islaam; they did not make use of it. The fault was theirs.
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crimsontide06
08-21-2016, 04:08 PM
Which resources? When I google Islam, one of the hundreds of sites is "wiki Islam" which is a hate site that paints Islam in a bad light....great job.
Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
They still won't be excused. The resources were available for them to learn about Islam; they did not make use of it. The fault was theirs.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
08-21-2016, 06:25 PM
The fact still remains that these people had the ability to learn about Islaam, but they didn't. A sincere seeker of the truth inquires and researches things for himself/herself regardless of what's on TV or not.
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sister herb
08-21-2016, 06:38 PM
I don´t think that news expel non-Muslims to search truthful information about Islam or give to them only a bad image. Despite the fact that most of the news try to give a horrific image about Islam and Muslims in general, Islam spreads nowadays radiply - maybe faster than ever before - in the West.
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Little_Lion
08-21-2016, 06:53 PM
Actually, it was the negative news reports in the West that ultimately led me TO Islam. Myself and my husband had heard so much about the wars and fighting, and also about natural disasters in the Middle East, that we wanted to go and help. My husband was interested in disaster mitigation, and myself in the preservation of history and historic sites. Since we were thinking about moving to the Middle East, I began learning about Islam so we could live there. I started with a fairly neutral college textbook on the religion, and began searching for more information on certain subjects online. It was not hard to find lectures from respected scholars on any topic. I quickly went from learning about Islam out of curiosity (and admittedly, self-preservation if I was going to be traveling to places like Afghanistan) to learning about it because it was the Truth.
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anatolian
08-21-2016, 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by Mustafa16
I said on here that they believe Christians and jews can go to heaven, but I'm not sure now if that's really true or if that's a rumor. So they might believe Christians and Jews go to heaven, but that is unconfirmed...... here are some links....
http://www.gulenmovement.us/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClen_movement
Mustafa I am sorry but you go nuts soon because of this issue. Just relax and learn Islam from it's original sources. The hadith you are reffering to has a symbolic meaning. There have been more than 73 sects within Islam in history and today. I would follow as much as the oldest ways if I were in your place. Most of the modern day "sects" "movements" etc. are controlled by the evil forces inorder to have control over the one and half billion Muslim world. And I am afraid this guy is just one of them. It is not that I am disagree with everything he says. Indeed I am agree with his peaceful side but it is obvious that he is under control of CIA..I am a peaceful Muslim myself but I don't buy this "moderate islam" project which is created by America.
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anatolian
08-21-2016, 07:52 PM
By the way I don't want to offend my Muslim American brethren but it is a fact that America has plans over the Muslim World.
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cooterhein
08-22-2016, 12:59 AM
Originally Posted by anatolian
By the way I don't want to offend my Muslim American brethren but it is a fact that America has plans over the Muslim World.
Where can I find out about those plans?
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Abz2000
08-22-2016, 01:29 AM
Considering the high likelihood that the Gulen movement is a victim of unjust conspiracy and that many large establishments have been baited into making weird statements out of fear of losing all that they have striven for in Allah's way, it is best to look to whether they do more good compared to bad, imho, the gulen movement has done a lot of good and it's leader was forced to leave Turkey after the secularist government there went after him for promoting the idea of an Islamic State long before 9/11.

I notice that such questions are never asked about wholesale corrupt movements like the skull and bones run American government, the bullingdon club run downing street, and the p2 lodge run rome, italy.
like why isn't 99% good 100% good? Should 1% good 99% bad discard it 99% good? ......Weird......i tell ya......
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Abz2000
08-22-2016, 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by cooterhein
Where can I find out about those plans?
Ummmm, by asking yourself why on earth Turkey is roosting on around 50 of America's nuclear bombs at the Incirlik base, coincidentally a base from which a jet refueller took off for the "coup attempt" before Erdogan coming down heavily on Gulenist schools and universities? I mean the CIA would never have been unaware of or allowed such a move without having a hand in it and would at least have told the Turkish government that such an incident was taking place - if they weren't all a part of the stage and subsequent posturing......
Reeks of evil, blackmail and fraud.........
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cooterhein
08-22-2016, 02:18 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
Ummmm, by asking yourself why on earth Turkey is roosting on around 50 of America's nuclear bombs at the Incirlik base, coincidentally a base from which a jet refueller took off for the "coup attempt" before Erdogan coming down heavily on Gulenist schools and universities? I mean the CIA would never have been unaware of or allowed such a move without having a hand in it and would at least have told the Turkish government that such an incident was taking place - if they weren't all a part of the stage and subsequent posturing......
Reeks of evil, blackmail and fraud.........
If the US was involved in what happened there, why would the US want to ensure that Turkey becomes far less secular and democratic and far more Islamist? Why would the US want to see Turkey start becoming closer with Russia than it has been in a long time, if ever?

Or did the US have a different plan and completely fail to figure out what the outcome would be?

All I'm saying is, if Turkey and Erdogan are part of a US-backed plan, we haven't seen any of that go according to US interests so far. Speaking of the Gulenists, he's staying in rural Pennsylvania. Erdogan asked the US to hand him over, and the US said no. How is that a plan?
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Abz2000
08-22-2016, 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by cooterhein
If the US was involved in what happened there, why would the US want to ensure that Turkey becomes far less secular and democratic and far more Islamist? Why would the US want to see Turkey start becoming closer with Russia than it has been in a long time, if ever?

Or did the US have a different plan and completely fail to figure out what the outcome would be?

All I'm saying is, if Turkey and Erdogan are part of a US-backed plan, we haven't seen any of that go according to US interests so far. Speaking of the Gulenists, he's staying in rural Pennsylvania. Erdogan asked the US to hand him over, and the US said no. How is that a plan?
Maybe because of the fact that those controlling America took over administration of Russia after the cold war and dismantling of the soviet union and are playing pass the divided, weakened and desperate middle eastern countries from one hand to the other and draining their resources and strength via stoked turmoil and arms sales, so obama and putin lose nothing other than their places in paradise. America has been losing it's credibility in the middle east for a long time and has recently squandered any remaining goodwill it had amongst the people of turkey and so was erdogan when america gave away turkish territory to kurds, looks very much like they just passed the ball from left hand to right with a sleight of the hand.
And even if russia handn't been a proxy state, the two still make mega bucks from passing us around like toys.

Oh Muslims, our only hope is Allah and those who adhere to Him, don't lose taqwa and hope of help from Allah due to the false hopes, deceitful posturing rhetoric and stalling, blackmailing, and threatening false "peace talks" by awliyaa ash-shaytaan.
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cooterhein
08-22-2016, 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
Maybe because of the fact that those controlling America took over administration of Russia after the cold war and dismantling of the soviet union
Putin was the head of the KGB, then he became the head of Russia, then after his term limits expired he rearranged Russian leadership so a different position would be the new head of Russia and he took that. Putin is very much in control of Russia, although there are powerful Russian oligarchs with interests that he needs to balance things against.

You seem to be suggesting that Russia and the US are in covert collusion with each other, but I don't believe that's the case. The US actually is rather worried about Russian expansionism, and Crimea continues to be a major concern.

and are playing pass the divided, weakened and desperate middle eastern countries from one hand to the other and draining their resources and strength via stoked turmoil and arms sales, so obama and putin lose nothing other than their places in paradise.
That's not really how it works. In reality, Turkey has a lot to gain from either the US or Russia, and right now they seem to be exploring the possibilities that Russia can help them explore. Erdogan is playing both ends against the middle.

America has been losing it's credibility in the middle east for a long time and has recently squandered any remaining goodwill it had amongst the people of turkey
Right now I'm willing to bet that Gulen supporters would love to spend some time in the US right about now.

and so was erdogan when america gave away turkish territory to kurds,
Not sure what you're talking about, when was this exactly? Link me, please.

And even if russia handn't been a proxy state, the two still make mega bucks from passing us around like toys.
And which country are you from? Would that be Turkey?

Oh Muslims, our only hope is Allah and those who adhere to Him, don't lose taqwa and hope of help from Allah due to the false hopes, deceitful posturing rhetoric and stalling, blackmailing, and threatening false "peace talks" by awliyaa ash-shaytaan.
**********
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Abz2000
08-22-2016, 07:15 AM
Originally Posted by cooterhein
Putin was the head of the KGB, then he became the head of Russia, then after his term limits expired he rearranged Russian leadership so a different position would be the new head of Russia and he took that. Putin is very much in control of Russia, although there are powerful Russian oligarchs with interests that he needs to balance things against.
You seem to be suggesting that Russia and the US are in covert collusion with each other, but I don't believe that's the case. The US actually is rather worried about Russian expansionism, and Crimea continues to be a major concern.

Both the leaders of america and the leaders of russia are dependent upon the same usury barons and both their intelligence agemcies are infiltrated and run by arms of the same secret societies, and both are flooding the planet with their worthless unbacked paper posing as currency, even besides the fact that both make money from turmoil in the middle east.

America's infidel leadership pretends to be concerned about a lot of things, only to be discovered that the same kaafir leaders were the main players behind the plots. Studying the events of ww2 should make that easy to see.

Originally Posted by cooterhein
That's not really how it works. In reality, Turkey has a lot to gain from either the US or Russia, and right now they seem to be exploring the possibilities that Russia can help them explore. Erdogan is playing both ends against the middle.
The people of Turkey stand to export huge amounts of resources and incur huge debts from the instability caused by the kuffaar who cause corruption and mischief from America the land that has become the leader in crime corruption, fornication, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality and infidelity to God.

Originally Posted by cooterhein
Right now I'm willing to bet that Gulen supporters would love to spend some time in the US right about now.
I sure hope that some decide to take lawful action when they get there due to the corruption that the satanic infidel American government has fomented in their own lands without right or reason.

Originally Posted by cooterhein
Not sure what you're talking about, when was this exactly? Link me, please.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd...%80%93present)
Also parts of syria and iraq after the illegal invasion by america in 2003, bearing in mind that these are nationalist (racist) disputes whereas the recent events are based on Islam and a legitimate caliphate will absorb all Muslim majority lands inshaAllah.

[QUOTE=cooterhein;2922313]
And which country are you from? Would that be Turkey?

Again, racist boundaries are of no consequence to me within my ability to ignore them, i am Allah's servant and will do His work inshaAlkah, which is why i am concerned about events thousands of miles away.

Originally Posted by cooterhein
**********
Repent.
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cooterhein
08-22-2016, 08:50 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
Both the leaders of america and the leaders of russia are dependent upon the same usury barons and both their intelligence agemcies are infiltrated and run by arms of the same secret societies, and both are flooding the planet with their worthless unbacked paper posing as currency, even besides the fact that both make money from turmoil in the middle east.
One of them also puts economic sanctions on the other, there are just a few things that aren't entirely consistent with your theory. Russia would probably still be part of the G-8, the fact that they're not and it's now the G-7 is an example of disconfirming evidence that you see but don't really look at.

America's infidel leadership pretends to be concerned about a lot of things, only to be discovered that the same kaafir leaders were the main players behind the plots. Studying the events of ww2 should make that easy to see.
WW2 was pretty great for us.

The people of Turkey stand to export huge amounts of resources and incur huge debts from the instability caused by the kuffaar who cause corruption and mischief from America the land that has become the leader in crime corruption, fornication, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality and infidelity to God.
The United States of America is the most powerful country in the history of the world, it's the best place to live, and the worst idea you'll ever have is to mess with it.

I sure hope that some decide to take lawful action when they get there due to the corruption that the satanic infidel American government has fomented in their own lands without right or reason.
This whole thread is primarily about Gulenism, you know what it is right? In relation to Erdogan, in relation to the rest of Islam, in relation to the US? It has been clearly stated at previous points in the thread that Gulenism is deviant vis a vis Islam, but what I just said about Gulenism vis a vis the US actually makes perfect sense. What you are saying, really doesn't.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd...%80%93present)
Also parts of syria and iraq after the illegal invasion by america in 2003, bearing in mind that these are nationalist (racist) disputes whereas the recent events are based on Islam and a legitimate caliphate will absorb all Muslim majority lands inshaAllah.
Thank you for that, I'm not seeing exactly how the US is supposed to be the reason for the Kurds fighting Turkey and having these uprisings. I'm also noticing that the leader of the Kurdish separatist movement was eventually captured in Kenya, at an embassy, and the main countries involved in the capture included Israel and the US. The Kurds were generally quite angry at Israel (and to some extent a few others) for being instrumental his capture, transport to Turkey, and death sentence (later commuted and replaced with life imprisonment).

Also, just to clarify, how does a caliphate become legitimate, and do you think that either of the ersatz caliphates currently trying to survive could possibly become legitimate by your analysis?

Again, racist boundaries are of no consequence to me within my ability to ignore them, i am Allah's servant and will do His work inshaAlkah, which is why i am concerned about events thousands of miles away.
Okay, so the answer is no, you're not from anywhere near Turkey and you have nothing to do with the internal conflict they've been having between two (or three or four) different types of Muslims.

Repent.
You keep putting all these names out there, kuffar infidel shaytann, oh what are some other ones. Deceitful posturing, Satanic infidel. That's a solid one. I mean, you just keep doing this sort of thing, you were looking like a little kid who needed someone to play with.

I thought we were playing a game. Lulz.
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