Islam and Secularism

[Yhorm]

This is something that's been on my mind for a long time, especially since the refugee crisis. I'm an atheist from Europe and I've been trying to learn about Islam for about 3 months now. Not because I want to convert, but because a huge amount of Muslims are coming to our countries since 2015. I'm not a huge fan of any religion and in my opinion secularism is one of Europe's greatest achievements. Hence my question:

Is Islam and Secularism compatible, especially for Muslims migrants?

Let me explain where I'm coming from. As an atheist I can't even fathom what it feels like to believe in God. I can't fathom what it feels like to actually have a book in which our creator explains everything to us. As far as I've understood it, Islam is like a very comprehensive instruction manual on life. It sets rules for nutrition, intercourse, law, social behavior etc., etc. Let's say I believe in all of this. I have no doubt that all of this is completely true. The Quran is Gods last and final word. Why would I ever integrate into any society, that goes against those rules? Why would I follow the constitution of a country, if I have my very own divine constitution? Why would I change my way of live in the slightest, if I believe my way is ordained by God?

Now I don't want to offend anybody. I don't mind usually, but I DO feel like I'm a guest here so I don't want to be rude. I seriously don't have an opinion on this and I'm dying to get some opinions from Muslims. You all have a great day. :)

[kritikvernunft]

... in my opinion secularism is one of Europe's greatest achievements ...

If the birth rate falls below 2.1 children/woman, the population will become extinct. The further it drops below that minimum, the faster the population will die out. In Germany, for example, the total fertility rate has been rated around 1.4, and still dropping. My conjectural calculation model says that it will keep dropping until it will have become statistically indistinguishable from zero. If there is any link between secularism and birth rate -- there undoubtedly is -- then Europe's greatest achievement is to resolutely go the way of the dinosaur.

Is Islam and Secularism compatible, especially for Muslims migrants?

Secularism seems to be rather suitable for dinosaurs. Jurassic Park was certainly a secular haven for the staunchly anti-reproduction Tyrannosaurus Rex. That animal species absolutely desired to disappear from the face of the earth. It was absolutely unstoppable. It is indeed gone now.

Why would I ever integrate into any society, that goes against those rules?

After the locals die out, and join their brothers in Jurassic paradise, someone will still need to inherit the land. So, it is mostly question of in the meanwhile not to stray too far away. Otherwise, other non-secularists may best you, and inherit the juiciest pieces in your stead.

Why would I follow the constitution of a country, if I have my very own divine constitution? Why would I change my way of live in the slightest, if I believe my way is ordained by God?

Not. Not at all. You would obviously not do that. You have given the answer by yourself, haven't you? Instead, you should just be patient and wait, until the dinosaurs will mostly be gone. My take on the matter is that secularism is an ideologic model that is much more suitable for Jurassic paradise than for this much simpler planet earth. That is obviously why the secularists are going there in great numbers.

So, when you finally get there, don't forget to say hello to our good friend Tyrannosaurus Rex.

[Yhorm]

I asked a simple question. No need to be so arrogant, mate. :)

[Mustafa16]

Well, you should abide by the laws of the state in which you live, but if you ever choose to abide by Islam, then the rules which do not contradict the state and/or you can follow due to religious accommodations, should be followed (not drinking alcohol, not fornicating, not eating pork, etc.) as for shariah law, you can still respect it and see the beauty of religion by seeing the beauty of the rules which contradict the state, and thus use it to inspire you to follow Islam in other ways (praying 5 times a day, fasting during Ramadan, etc.)

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[Yhorm]

Well, you should abide by the laws of the state in which you live, but if you ever choose to abide by Islam, then the rules which do not contradict the state and/or you can follow due to religious accommodations, should be followed (not drinking alcohol, not fornicating, not eating pork, etc.) as for shariah law, you can still respect it and see the beauty of religion by seeing the beauty of the rules which contradict the state, and thus use it to inspire you to follow Islam in other ways (praying 5 times a day, fasting during Ramadan, etc.)

So what you're saying is: The laws of the state trump Sharia law in this case?

[kritikvernunft]

I asked a simple question.

And you wanted a simple answer. So, vote for Donald Trump in that case. He will supply you with all the half-truths that you want to hear. And then some, of course. He sounds pleasantly similar to Milosevic, who was going to make Serbia great again! ;-)

No need to be so arrogant, mate. :)

As you know, Divine Law says that all behaviour is permitted, unless it is listed as explicitly forbidden. Hence, you will have to rephrase your remark in terms of Divine Law. Otherwise, your complaint will not be receivable. As you know, the laws of the singular God always take precedence on personal preferences. We only recognize Divine Law as legitimate. We reject man-made law as inconsistent, contradictory, and ultimately self-defeating. That last bit you already knew, because what could be more self-defeating than a birth rate that wants to sink all the way to zero? ;-)

[Yhorm]

Why would I vote for Trump? I'm neither American nor do I agree with him in the slightest. You're exactly the kind of person that poisons any debate. And it's a little shocking that you live in Germany while you absolutely seem to hate it.

[Mustafa16]

So what you're saying is: The laws of the state trump Sharia law in this case?

in this case yes....for instance, if in the shariah, the punishment for theft was hand amputation, that could not be applied in a non muslim country....because, well, you would go to prison.....if you applied shariah in non muslim countries, you would be living in the jungle....you can proselytize and make dawah, and hope that the country becomes muslim, but you can not ENFORCE punishments and laws, etc.

[kritikvernunft]

So what you're saying is: The laws of the state trump Sharia law in this case?

The goal is to oppose man-made law, if only for the fun of it.

Thomas Aquinas expounded the concept of Human Law, a distinct form of law alongside Natural Law and Eternal Law, in Summa Theologica. Thomas asserted the primacy of natural law over man-made law, stating that where it "is at variance with natural law it will not be a law, but spoilt law" (ST, I–II q. 95 a. 2). The result of any such conflict is that the man-made law does "not oblige in the court of conscience" (ST, I–II q. 95 a. 4)

The opposition by Thomas Aquinas was unfortunately not radical enough. He still left the door open. The true religion, the true belief is the one that slams that door firmly shut. Opposing man-made law, neutralizing, and rendering it ineffective are acts of faith. You will go to paradise, if you do that enough. The goal is to oppose man-made law, and the instrument is religion. Only the singular God has the authority to make laws. The essence of true faith is the total disbelief that man-made law could ever be legitimate.

[Mustafa16]

The goal is to oppose man-made law, if only for the fun of it.

Thomas Aquinas expounded the concept of Human Law, a distinct form of law alongside Natural Law and Eternal Law, in Summa Theologica. Thomas asserted the primacy of natural law over man-made law, stating that where it "is at variance with natural law it will not be a law, but spoilt law" (ST, I–II q. 95 a. 2). The result of any such conflict is that the man-made law does "not oblige in the court of conscience" (ST, I–II q. 95 a. 4)

The opposition by Thomas Aquinas was unfortunately not radical enough. He still left the door open. The true religion, the true belief is the one that slams that door firmly shut. Opposing man-made law, neutralizing, and rendering it ineffective are acts of faith. You will go to paradise, if you do that enough. The goal is to oppose man-made law, and the instrument is religion. Only the singular God has the authority to make laws. The essence of true faith is the total disbelief that man-made law could ever be legitimate.

brother, please do not be too harsh with our atheist friend, being gentle is good for dawah and it's simply the right thing to do as Muslims.....

[Yhorm]

brother, please do not be too harsh with our atheist friend, being gentle is good for dawah and it's simply the right thing to do as Muslims.....

No need to be gentle, I simply want to get some real authentic opinions. If that is his true opinion than by any means, let him express it.

[kritikvernunft]

Why would I vote for Trump?

Because he gives simple answers to simple questions.

I'm neither American nor do I agree with him in the slightest.

I personally like him quite a bit. He is good at speaking to the crowds; almost as good as Milosevic, who gave the Serbs exactly what they had asked for.

You're exactly the kind of person that poisons any debate.

Well, everybody can say that about everybody else. But then again, isn't it rather you making the ad hominem here? ;-)

And it's a little shocking that you live in Germany while you absolutely seem to hate it.

I gave Germany only as an example. I do not live in Germany. In fact, I get along quite well with Germans. They will be sorely missed, when they will have departed to keep the dinosaurs company. Still, they are leaving a very solid manufacturing base behind. World famous. We are going to do very well after they will be gone! ;-)

[Yhorm]

I came here to get some knowledge on a topic I have no knowledge in. You came here to ridicule me. If that's how you want to talk to people so be it. I'm also wondering why you keep talking about simple answers. Who said I want simple answers? I simply have no desire to study Islam in its entirety, hence I came here to ask people who have a lot more knowledge on the topic. Are you even a Muslim by the way? What "other" religion are you following?

[kritikvernunft]

... being gentle is good for dawah ...

I somehow suspect that dawah mostly does itself. Even to the atheists, it should be obvious that rejecting the deluge of inconsistent and contradictory rules invented in some kind of parliament, can only be a good idea. I wonder why they do not believe in the singular God, but they do believe in the legitimacy of all kinds of invented laws? Atheists say that they do not believe, but at the same time they believe in the worst possible thing that anybody actually could believe in. So, my form of dawah is to convince the unbelievers to disbelieve in something else. Disbelief is a good thing, but you should carefully pick your object of disbelief. Atheism is a bit inconsistent. Why focus on disbelieving something that they say does not even exist? What a waste of time. They could as well spend their efforts on disbelieving something that certainly does exist, and that makes a hell of a lot more trouble: man-made law.

[kritikvernunft]

Are you even a Muslim by the way? What "other" religion are you following?

Well, we don't completely agree on things. They see Islam as the goal, and getting rid of man-made law as the instrument. I see getting rid of man-made law as the goal, and Islam as the instrument. So, true Muslims are of the type "12", while I am of the type "21", which is not a 100% accredited form of the religion. So, we understand each other, but we almost never agree on goal/instrument discussions. Still, Islam is an instrument that is also its own goal. So, it is not as simple as just reversing things. But then again, you prefer simple answers to simple questions. Hence, I can imagine that you are not interested in the finer details of all of that! ;-)

[Yhorm]

I wonder why they do not believe in the singular God, but they do believe in the legitimacy of all kinds of invented laws?

Because we believe that religious laws are man-made. That's why we follow other man-made laws that suit our needs better. We're also not really focusing on disbelieving. It's no effort to not believe something, we just do. That should be quite familiar to you. We also put effort into disbelieving man-made law. That's why laws are changing constantly.

[M.I.A.]

This is something that's been on my mind for a long time, especially since the refugee crisis. I'm an atheist from Europe and I've been trying to learn about Islam for about 3 months now. Not because I want to convert, but because a huge amount of Muslims are coming to our countries since 2015. I'm not a huge fan of any religion and in my opinion secularism is one of Europe's greatest achievements. Hence my question:

Is Islam and Secularism compatible, especially for Muslims migrants?

Let me explain where I'm coming from. As an atheist I can't even fathom what it feels like to believe in God. I can't fathom what it feels like to actually have a book in which our creator explains everything to us. As far as I've understood it, Islam is like a very comprehensive instruction manual on life. It sets rules for nutrition, intercourse, law, social behavior etc., etc. Let's say I believe in all of this. I have no doubt that all of this is completely true. The Quran is Gods last and final word. Why would I ever integrate into any society, that goes against those rules? Why would I follow the constitution of a country, if I have my very own divine constitution? Why would I change my way of live in the slightest, if I believe my way is ordained by God?

Now I don't want to offend anybody. I don't mind usually, but I DO feel like I'm a guest here so I don't want to be rude. I seriously don't have an opinion on this and I'm dying to get some opinions from Muslims. You all have a great day. :)

what's religion got to do with anything?

...not sure where you are from but the UK has experienced influxes of economic migrants for a number of decades.

the only difference is that those people came solely to make a living and find new ways of providing for there families.

ironically with the state of several countries within the EU those economic migrants are still turning up.

if you worry about war refugees, then maybe your government's should do the same..

Islam is what you make it.

http://news.sky.com/story/boys-held-...h-man-10559484

[Abz2000]

Well, you should abide by the laws of the state in which you live, but if you ever choose to abide by Islam, then the rules which do not contradict the state and/or you can follow due to religious accommodations, should be followed (not drinking alcohol, not fornicating, not eating pork, etc.) as for shariah law, you can still respect it and see the beauty of religion by seeing the beauty of the rules which contradict the state, and thus use it to inspire you to follow Islam in other ways (praying 5 times a day, fasting during Ramadan, etc.)

Actually you abide by the laws of God to the best of your ability and work to establish the laws of God to the best of your ability, for Allah is MY Master and YOUR Master, and you make clear to all people that Allah swt requires submission to His will.
It is easy to give dawah by saying things that people want to hear, but it is better to guide them as close as possible to the truth.

Regarding the op's question on why so many people migrate, one would have to look at the human circumstances in the region and in a country who's people were quite affluent and often hired servants from abroad....bearing in mind that syria has been under sanctions for a long time for it's condemnation of Western aggression and it's differences with te ionist regime, not that i am saying that Assad is a saint or anything like that, rather far from it.
....the following videos are of a very graphic nature but essential for people to understand the horrors that the godless secular military companies have inflicted upon real people, companies who are encouraged by the politicians whom they lobby to make lots of weapons in order to increase global usury baron dominance, companies who make a loss if their goods are not sold and their business is bloodshed and destruction:


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8ff_1470021614
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=da2_1472459604
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d0c_1414751134

As someone who's moved out of britain only to find a puppet government propped up and supported with weapons and training by the british and american governments and media machines, media machines which go into overdrive talking about "Islaamic extremism in bangladesh" whenever large masses of people come out in peaceful protest demanding their God given rights and are shot at, imprisoned, tortured etc by corrupt "law enforcement", i can assure you that i know very well the mentality of people who not only want to move to a different place, but also of those who wish to go and pay back the colonialist puppet masters for their evil.

If i was in syria and the above incidents happened, i would prefer to go kamikazee in the secularist and godless countries america, france or britain where the majority of the blame really lies than to waste time on sectarian blood letting specifically set up by the british and american governments to keep people busy whilst they weaken the region further in preparation for an attack.

A lot of blackmailing and puppet directing takes place behind the scenes of the political theatre that you are shown on tv.
You could liken it to the difference between the surface web and the deep/dark web.

[M.I.A.]

Actually you abide by the laws of God to the best of your ability and work to establish the laws of God to the best of your ability, for Allah is MY Master and YOUR Master, and you make clear to all people that Allah swt requires submission to His will.
It is easy to give dawah by saying things that people want to hear, but it is better to guide them as close as possible to the truth.

Regarding the op's question on why so many people migrate, one would have to look at the human circumstances in the region and in a country who's people were quite affluent and often hired servants from abroad....bearing in mind that syria has been under sanctions for a long time for it's condemnation of Western aggression and it's differences with te ionist regime, not that i am saying that Assad is a saint or anything like that, rather far from it.
....the following videos are of a very graphic nature but essential for people to understand the horrors that the godless secular military companies have inflicted upon real people, companies who are encouraged by the politicians whom they lobby to make lots of weapons in order to increase global usury baron dominance, companies who make a loss if their goods are not sold and their business is bloodshed and destruction:


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8ff_1470021614
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=da2_1472459604
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d0c_1414751134

As someone who's moved out of britain only to find a puppet government propped up and supported with weapons and training by the british and american governments and media machines, media machines which go into overdrive talking about "Islaamic extremism in bangladesh" whenever large masses of people come out in peaceful protest demanding their God given rights and are shot at, imprisoned, tortured etc by corrupt "law enforcement", i can assure you that i know very well the mentality of people who not only want to move to a different place, but also of those who wish to go and pay back the colonialist puppet masters for their evil.

If i was in syria and the above incidents happened, i would prefer to go kamikazee in the secularist and godless countries america, france or britain where the majority of the blame really lies than to waste time on sectarian blood letting specifically set up by the british and american governments to keep people busy whilst they weaken the region further in preparation for an attack.

A lot of blackmailing and puppet directing takes place behind the scenes of the political theatre that you are shown on tv.
You could liken it to the difference between the surface web and the deep/dark web.

this is the joke really, we all see the chess board..

and they would be happy to play you as pawns.

I don't buy into it..

although even if you had all the resources in the world, you would still be you..

what happened to Osama bin laden?

is any part of any country strengthened or weakened by his actions?

so who did he die for?

...not the Russians apparently.


kamikazee is a horrible term..


better you live with your nobility than fall on your own sword.

[kritikvernunft]

Because we believe that religious laws are man-made.

There is something like the true blueprint of mankind, which contains a copy of its law. That blueprint cannot be man-made, because it would require the human maker of the blueprint to pre-exist humanity. That would be contradictory. If mankind should be governed by the law mentioned in its blueprint, it is obvious that the maker of this law is something else than human. Mankind can seek to discover this law in its purest form. One way to go about it, is the belief that it would be revealed. There could possibly be alternative ways to rediscover this law. I do not believe, however, that having politicians debate about that, will yield the results desired.

That's why we follow other man-made laws that suit our needs better.

This presupposes that you know what is better for you, and what manipulations of the rules would lead to that. The idea that it would work, looks quite incompatible with a collapsing birth rate. So, your pressing need is to go the way of the dinosaur, I suppose? We have no problem with that, because in the end, everybody believes what they want. People who believe in man-made law develop a strong propensity to die out. That is ok, because everybody is allowed to define by themselves what their needs are. If that means dying out, so be it.

We also put effort into disbelieving man-made law. That's why laws are changing constantly.

Replacing man-made by new man-made law does not represent disbelief in man-made law. In the end, it will be man-made law again. So, in the end, nothing really changes. I do not mind that people want to change their laws. I do not change mine. They will remain forever the same. You are only subject to the laws to which you voluntarily submit. Hence, you do not need to obey to Divine Law, if you do not want to. Nothing stops you from believing politicians, and submit to their inventions instead. We will not stop you from doing that.

[Futuwwa]

Secularism, in the original sense of the word, i.e. state neutrality in matters of religion and/or opposition to the institutional power to organized religion, that's entirely acceptable, even preferable, if we're a minority. That's secularism in the original sense of the concept, and what the US Founding Fathers, Ataturk, and the authors of the French constitution of 1905 all meant by it. There is a rather large Islamic scholarly consensus that Muslim minorities are to obey the laws of the land, unless they are directly anti-Islamic. The laws simply being different from classical sharia is, in itself, no cause for conflict.

Secularism in the modern sense, of active suppression of private practice of religion in the public sphere, that's another matter. That is the reason why we can't have nice things, and something we can never willingly submit to.

[Mustafa16]

Secularism, in the original sense of the word, i.e. state neutrality in matters of religion and/or opposition to the institutional power to organized religion, that's entirely acceptable, even preferable, if we're a minority. That's secularism in the original sense of the concept, and what the US Founding Fathers, Ataturk, and the authors of the French constitution of 1905 all meant by it. There is a rather large Islamic scholarly consensus that Muslim minorities are to obey the laws of the land, unless they are directly anti-Islamic. The laws simply being different from classical sharia is, in itself, no cause for conflict.

Secularism in the modern sense, of active suppression of private practice of religion in the public sphere, that's another matter. That is the reason why we can't have nice things, and something we can never willingly submit to.

are you Turkish?

[aaj]

Welcome to the forum. we have a few atheists here that are quite regulars. :)


Laws and regulations are made as a means of having a functioning stable society. Each nation has it's own, be it theist, non-theist or a blend of the both. Whether you can fathom believing in God or not is irrelevant. Bottom line is that whether you agree with the laws of the land or not and to what extent and how does it impact you personally.

There are millions of western expats in the Middle East. There are restrictions on what they can wear in what areas and what they can do and cannot do. These are cultural and/or religious rules they have to be aware of and whether they agree with it not, they do adhere to them. The same applies to Muslims living the west.

The dilemma arises when those laws conflict with your personal beliefs and rights. If the laws are reasonable then there's no problem. Many westerners choose to go to Middle East because the laws seem reasonable enough for them to go there. Same with Muslims, for the most part, the laws are not conflicting with their faith so they don't have an issue with it.

For example. many of the western laws are christianity based or humanistic based (no stealing, killing, etc) and have no conflict with the Islamic values or laws. Muslims are told to obey the laws of the land they live in and many of these laws are not oppressive. But if a law is to be unjustified and oppressive and goes against the faith then there is no obligation to obey it.

For example, when xenophobic and fascists seculars start targeting a specific group by making laws to ban them from being part of the society, such as banning hijab from government offices, universities, and now beaches. Then it is clear that they are targeting a group of people for their faith and the laws they are making are unjustified as well as against human rights of individuals right to exercise their faith.

There is no obligation to obey such oppressive laws. Muslims and non-Muslims alike should work towards stopping such injustice in the land because that is what leads to ostracizing and alienating a segment of the society that is law abiding and contributing members of that society.

So to answer your question of Islam and Secularism being compatible. I would say it depends. If the secular nation is still a just nation with just laws for everyone then it's not contradicting Islam or opposing it in anyway. If its a xenophobic nation, like France, and other nations following that xenophobic intolerance path then they are not compatible as Islam stands against injustice and oppression.

At end of the Day, it's live and let live deal. You are welcome to practice your secularism and I my faith so long as we don't impede on each other on how to live their lives.

Hope that clears up some of the things for you.

[aaj]

Secularism, in the original sense of the word, i.e. state neutrality in matters of religion and/or opposition to the institutional power to organized religion, that's entirely acceptable, even preferable, if we're a minority. That's secularism in the original sense of the concept, and what the US Founding Fathers, Ataturk, and the authors of the French constitution of 1905 all meant by it. .

Ataturk was not a state neutrality secular like the US founding fathers. He was a secular extremist, anti-theist , especially Islam and very culturally nationalist tyrant.

[Futuwwa]

are you Turkish?

Nope.

[Abz2000]

this is the joke really, we all see the chess board..

and they would be happy to play you as pawns.

I don't buy into it..

No joke at all....

"Play" as pawns?

By Robert Fisk

04/29/06 "The Independent" -- - In Syria, the world appears through a glass, darkly. As dark as the smoked windows of the car which takes me to a building on the western side of Damascus where a man I have known for 15 years - we shall call him a "security source", which is the name given by American correspondents to their own powerful intelligence officers - waits with his own ferocious narrative of disaster in Iraq and dangers in the Middle East.

His is a fearful portrait of an America trapped in the bloody sands of Iraq, desperately trying to provoke a civil war around Baghdad in order to reduce its own military casualties. It is a scenario in which Saddam Hussein remains Washington's best friend, in which Syria has struck at the Iraqi insurgents with a ruthlessness that the United States wilfully ignores. And in which Syria's Interior Minister, found shot dead in his office last year, committed suicide because of his own mental instability.

The Americans, my interlocutor suspected, are trying to provoke an Iraqi civil war so that Sunni Muslim insurgents spend their energies killing their Shia co-religionists rather than soldiers of the Western occupation forces. "I swear to you that we have very good information," my source says, finger stabbing the air in front of him. "One young Iraqi man told us that he was trained by the Americans as a policeman in Baghdad and he spent 70 per cent of his time learning to drive and 30 per cent in weapons training. They said to him: 'Come back in a week.' When he went back, they gave him a mobile phone and told him to drive into a crowded area near a mosque and phone them. He waited in the car but couldn't get the right mobile signal. So he got out of the car to where he received a better signal. Then his car blew up."

SHIA CLERIC MUQTADA AL-SADR BLAMES US FORCES FOR SUNDAY MASSACRE March 13, 06
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/a...ow/1448002.cms

Excerpts only...

BAGHDAD: Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr ...said terrorists carried out the bombing "under US air cover" arguing that the halt of telephone connections before the incident was proof of the cooperation between the terrorists and the occupier to "destabilise the security of this Shia region."

"I find Sunnis and Shias innocents of this act," he added.

Khadduri’s report went like this:

“A few days ago, an American manned check point confiscated the driver license of a driver and told him to report to an American military camp near Baghdad airport for interrogation and in order to retrieve his license. The next day, the driver did visit the camp and he was allowed in the camp with his car. He was admitted to a room for an interrogation that lasted half an hour. At the end of the session, the American interrogator told him: ‘OK, there is nothing against you, but you do know that Iraq is now sovereign and is in charge of its own affairs. Hence, we have forwarded your papers and license to al-Kadhimia police station for processing. Therefore, go there with this clearance to reclaim your license. At the police station, ask for Lt. Hussain Mohammed, who is waiting for you now. Go there now quickly, before he leaves his shift work”. (http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KHA505A.html )

The driver did leave in a hurry, but was soon alarmed with a feeling that his car was driving as if carrying a heavy load, and he also became suspicious of a low flying helicopter that kept hovering overhead, as if trailing him. He stopped the car and inspected it carefully. He found nearly 100 kilograms of explosives hidden in the back seat and along the two back doors.

The only feasible explanation for this incident is that the car was indeed booby trapped by the Americans and intended for the al-Khadimiya Shiite district of Baghdad. The helicopter was monitoring his movement and witnessing the anticipated “hideous attack by foreign elements”.

The same scenario was repeated in Mosul, in the north of Iraq. A car was confiscated along with the driver’s license. He did follow up on the matter and finally reclaimed his car but was told to go to a police station to reclaim his license. Fortunately for him, the car broke down on the way to the police station. The inspecting car mechanic discovered that the spare tire was fully laden with explosives.”

If this were the only example of this type I heard, I might have let it pass as just a story. But it wasn’t.

There was also the sorry tale of the Iraqi man who saw American soldiers plant a bomb which shortly thereafter exploded, and when he said so out loud for all to hear, he was hauled away, never to be seen again.

This story was reported on arguably the most authentic and riveting source of news from Iraq, the heart-rending “Baghdad Burning: Girl Blog from Iraq,” which is compiled by someone known only as Riverbend or Iraqi Girl. Again, recommended reading.

She recounts,

”the last two weeks have been violent …. The number of explosions in Baghdad alone is frightening. There have also been several assassinations – bodies being found here and there. It’s somewhat disturbing to know that corpses are turning up in the most unexpected places. Many people will tell you its not wise to eat river fish anymore because they have been nourished on the human remains being dumped into the river. That thought alone has given me more than one sleepless night. It is almost as if Baghdad has turned into a giant graveyard.

The latest corpses were those of some Sunni and Shia clerics – several of them well-known. People are being patient and there is a general consensus that these killings are being done to provoke civil war. Also worrisome is the fact that we are hearing of people being rounded up by security forces (Iraqi) and then being found dead days later – apparently when the new Iraqi government recently decided to reinstate the death penalty, they had something else in mind.

But back to the explosions. One of the larger blasts was in an area called Ma’moun, which is a middle class area located in west Baghdad. It’s a relatively calm residential area with shops that provide the basics and a bit more. It happened in the morning, as the shops were opening up for their daily business and it occurred right in front of a butcher’s shop. Immediately after, we heard that a man living in a house in front of the blast site was hauled off by the Americans because it was said that after the bomb went off, he sniped an Iraqi National Guardsman.

I didn’t think much about the story – nothing about it stood out: an explosion and a sniper – hardly an anomaly. The interesting news started circulating a couple of days later. People from the area claim that the man was taken away not because he shot anyone, but because he knew too much about the bomb. Rumor has it that he saw an American patrol passing through the area and pausing at the bomb site minutes before the explosion. Soon after they drove away, the bomb went off and chaos ensued. He ran out of his house screaming to the neighbors and bystanders that the Americans had either planted the bomb or seen the bomb and done nothing about it. He was promptly taken away.

The bombs are mysterious. Some of them explode in the midst of National Guard and near American troops or Iraqi Police and others explode near mosques, churches, and shops or in the middle of sougs. One thing that surprises us about the news reports of these bombs is that they are inevitably linked to suicide bombers. The reality is that some of these bombs are not suicide bombs – they are car bombs that are either being remotely detonated or maybe time bombs. All we know is that the techniques differ and apparently so do the intentions. Some will tell you they are resistance. Some say Chalabi and his thugs are responsible for a number of them. Others blame Iran and the SCIRI militia Badir.

In any case, they are terrifying. If you’re close enough, the first sound is a that of an earsplitting blast and the sounds that follow are of a rain of glass, shrapnel and other sharp things. Then the wails begin – the shrill mechanical wails of an occasional ambulance combined with the wail of car alarms from neighboring vehiclesŠ and finally the wail of people trying to sort out their dead and dying from the debris.

On May 13, 2005, a 64 years old Iraqi farmer, Haj Haidar Abu Sijjad, took his tomato load in his pickup truck from Hilla to Baghdad, accompanied by Ali, his 11 years old grandson. They were stopped at an American check point and were asked to dismount. An American soldier climbed on the back of the pickup truck, followed by another a few minutes later, and thoroughly inspected the tomato filled plastic containers for about 10 minutes. Haj Haidar and his grandson were then allowed to proceed to Baghdad.

A minute later, his grandson told him that he saw one of the American soldiers putting a grey melon size object in the back among the tomato containers. The Haj immediately slammed on the brakes and stopped the car at the side of the road, at a relatively far distance from the check point. He found a time bomb with the clock ticking tucked among his tomatoes. He immediately recognized it, as he was an ex-army soldier. Panicking, he grabbed his grandson and ran away from the car. Then, realizing that the car was his only means of work, he went back, took the bomb and carried it in fear. He threw it in a deep ditch by the side of the road that was dug by Iraqi soldiers in preparation for the war, two years ago.

Upon returning from Baghdad, he found out that the bomb had indeed exploded, killing three sheep and injuring their shepherd in his head. He thanked God for giving him the courage to go back and remove the bomb, and for the luck in that the American soldiers did not notice his sudden stop at a distance and his getting rid of the bomb.

“They intended it to explode in Baghdad and claim that it is the work of the ‘terrorists’, or ‘insurgents’ or who call themselves the ‘Resistance’.

I decided to expose them and asked your reporter to take me to Baghdad to tell you the story. They are to be exposed as they now want to sow strife in Iraq and taint the Resistance after failing to defeat it militarily.

Do not forget to mention my name. I fear nobody but God, as I am a follower of Muqtada al-Sadir.” (http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/ )

http://www.globalresearch.ca/sick-st...ter/83?print=1

IRAQI SLAUGHTER DONE BY RESISTANCE OR
PSYWAR TACTIC? April 22, 2005
http://www.rense.com/general64/amac.htm

Excerpt only...

Is it possible "bizarre psy-war operations" are under way in Iraq, especially now that Rumsfeld's Strategic Support Branch (SSB) has been "operating in secret for two years-in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places" (as the Washington Post reported in January)?

Does it make sense for the Sunni-dominated resistance to kill its own base and grotesquely float dozens of their slaughtered bodies down the Tigris? No, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, that is unless the resistance wants to send the following message: we are brutal mass murderers who kill our own and for no reason beyond sheer mindless terror.

MEDIA DISINFORMATION AND THE NATURE OF THE IRAQI RESISTANCE
by Ghali Hassan May 29, 2005
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/HAS505C.html

Excerpts only...

In this regard, the creation, arming and financing of 'ethnic militias' and death squads by U.S. forces is designed to create ethnic divisions and provoke sectarian violence among Iraqis.
These US sponsored militia groups are:

The Kurdish Peshmerga whose leaders supported the U.S. invasion and Occupation.
The Iranian-trained Badr Brigades, The armed wing of the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) led by Ibrahim Al-Jaaferi of the Daíwa party, The INC militia of Ahmed Chalabi, and the INA militia of Iyad Allawi.
All these groups are involved in terrorist activities against Iraqi civilians. The latter three groups, entered Iraq on the back of U.S. tanks, without valid Iraqi citizenship papers.

The Kurdish militia are the Occupation's most loyal collaborators, receiving arms and money from their masters. Together with the occupying forces, they are responsible for wide scale atrocities in Iraqi towns and villages.

Together with the Peshmerga, Israeli Mossad agents and U.S. forces, the militia groups went on systematic killings of thousands of prominent Iraqi academics, scientists, politicians and religious leaders. They also participated in the atrocity and total destruction of Fallujah, which is depicted as "the storming of Fallujah" in most mainstream media. The city was completely destroyed and still a "no go zone" for Iraqis. Other Iraqi towns and cities have not escaped this deliberate destruction.

ISRAEL TRAINS US ASSASSINATION SQUADS IN IRAQ - Julian Borger in Washington Dec. 9, 2003
*
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,38...103550,00.html * **
*
Excerpts only...
Israeli advisers are helping train US special forces in aggressive counter-insurgency operations in Iraq, including the use of assassination squads against guerrilla leaders, US intelligence and military sources said yesterday.
*
*US forces in Iraq's Sunni triangle have already begun to use tactics that echo Israeli operations in the occupied territories, sealing off centres of resistance with razor wire and razing buildings from where attacks have been launched against US troops.
*
"This is basically an assassination programme. That is what is being conceptualised here. This is a hunter-killer team," said a former senior US intelligence official, who added that he feared the new tactics and enhanced cooperation with Israel would only inflame a volatile situation in the Middle East.
"It is bonkers, insane. Here we are - we're already being compared to Sharon in the Arab world, and we've just confirmed it by bringing in the Israelis and setting up assassination teams."

If one looks at the bigger picture however, one sees an attempt to weaken the region whilst creating a pretext to make a much larger scale invasion with a few other secular bandit nations taking a bigger shareof the larger pie just as the kaafir usury based economies begin to implode.......
It was never just about Iraq, the zionists are pretending to be silent spectators whilst waiting.....

although even if you had all the resources in the world, you would still be you..

Obviously i wouldn't be someone else.......

what happened to Osama bin laden?

is any part of any country strengthened or weakened by his actions?

so who did he die for?

...not the Russians apparently.

You'd need to read his letters to you and watch his interviews and hear his own words instead of listening to the lies of false flagging deceivers.....

kamikazee is a horrible term..


better you live with your nobility than fall on your own sword.

Nobility?
did you view the links?
Most of them died anyway, some without ever having practiced or enjoined good and forbidden evil, whereas others strove, but were mainly limited to contending with the sectarian fitnah started by british america and their secular sectarian puppet nouri al maliki........


(3)Chapter:
How did the oaths of the Prophet (saws) use to be?(3)

باب كَيْفَ كَانَتْ يَمِينُ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم
وَقَالَ سَعْدٌ قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: «وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ».
وَقَالَ أَبُو قَتَادَةَ قَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ عِنْدَ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لاَهَا اللَّهِ إِذًا. يُقَالُ وَاللَّهِ وَبِاللَّهِ وَتَاللَّهِ.

Narrated `Aisha:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "O followers of Muhammad! By Allah, if you knew what I know, you would weep much and laugh little."

حَدَّثَنِي مُحَمَّدٌ، أَخْبَرَنَا عَبْدَةُ، عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ عُرْوَةَ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنَّهُ قَالَ ‏ "‏ يَا أُمَّةَ مُحَمَّدٍ وَاللَّهِ لَوْ تَعْلَمُونَ مَا أَعْلَمُ لَبَكَيْتُمْ كَثِيرًا، وَلَضَحِكْتُمْ قَلِيلاً ‏"‏‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 6631
In-book reference : Book 83, Hadith 11
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 8, Book 78, Hadith 627
(deprecated numbering scheme)

http://sunnah.com/bukhari/83/11

[M.I.A.]

play as pawns...

sorry I just got how ridiculous I sound..

we can only aspire towards self importance.



without watching the video..

are you saying the cia give bad advice?

...even when they give monies?

dammit! why didn't anyone see through there ploy?

some people eh..

honestly maybe I'd do better selling ferraris.

..if you pile it high and sell it cheap.. will they come?

[jabeady]

I asked a simple question. No need to be so arrogant, mate. :)

What? And lose his entire reason for existence?

Secularism and Islam can live together, if both sides are willing to make it work. Speaking as a former Federal officer, the US government will recognize any religious action that was considered valid in the jurisdiction in which it took place. Example: A divorce conducted strictly in accordance with Shariah will be recognized by the State of New York, providing both parties agree to it; the US government will recognize the divorce because New York recognizes it.

[Abz2000]

What? And lose his entire reason for existence?

Secularism and Islam can live together, if both sides are willing to make it work. Speaking as a former Federal officer, the US government will recognize any religious action that was considered valid in the jurisdiction in which it took place. Example: A divorce conducted strictly in accordance with Shariah will be recognized by the State of New York, providing both parties agree to it; the US government will recognize the divorce because New York recognizes it.

The united states of america's governernment is run by a bunch of the worst Godless criminals humanity has ever seen, they practically survive off bloodshed just as flies survive off sh*t, they seriously need to repent to God before the judgement of God takes full account of their actions.

Would you also propose a slot for friday prayer at the church of satan in california in the spirit of co-existence?

Repent.

[jabeady]

And then there are those who want it all their way.

[Abz2000]

And then there are those who want it all their way.

We humans are not God, God is defined by His qualities, amongst which are Creator and Master of the heavens and the earth, and Ruler.
My Master and your Master, my God and your God - and In God We Trust.

[jabeady]

We humans are not God, God is defined by His qualities, amongst which are Creator and Master of the heavens and the earth, and Ruler.
My Master and your Master, my God and your God - and In God We Trust.

So what? The topic of the thread is whether Islam and Secularism can live together. It is easily demonstrable that they can, given people of good will on both sides. Islam has mechanisms for accommodating non-Muslims, and American secularism bends over backwards to make room for everybody, even for those people who want their own minorities to rule the collective majority.

[Abz2000]

So what? The topic of the thread is whether Islam and Secularism can live together. It is easily demonstrable that they can, given people of good will on both sides. Islam has mechanisms for accommodating non-Muslims, and American secularism bends over backwards to make room for everybody, even for those people who want their own minorities to rule the collective majority.

Secularism is Godlessness and God is absolutely real, therefore Godlessness is falsehood and an illusion. there is no logic in attempting to reconcile between truth and falsehood.

Does "One nation, under God" mean anything to you or has your ability to think clearly been confused so badly that you assume it means "one global godless anarchist nation run by crooks and blackmailed and bribed puppets"?
And please don't try to pretend that america's atheist government was looking for reconiciliation and goodwill between truth and falsehood, the facts of the past 100 years demonstrate the wicked intentions of treacherous secularists and leeching corrupt usurer manipulators, pretending to be christian and jewish as it suits them in order to hold on to the reins of the masses and keep them in camps, you'd also have to wonder why Bush, cheney rumsfeld, wolfowitz et al staged the 9/11 false flag, then blamed it on Usama (who's father had set aside money for the unification of the divided people of Islam at the proper time he saw was at hand), and then claimed that God had told him to invade Afghanistan despite no official investigation or report into the events on 9/11 - making it an illegal invasion, then lying about Iraq and trying to claim that he was working with Muslims in removing Saddam whom his dad h.w had spitefully used to bully his neighbours whilst under regan wgilst using the mujahideen in afghanistan to fight off russia and keep the opium fields for himself.

The Muslim nation wasn't bothering anyone despite all the provocations via the zionist regime and vetoing of international action until sharon started to wake everyone up with his atrocities.....


...the truth has become clear to all of mankind by now and the only thing which remains is to submit to God and accept Muhammad pbuh as God's final messenger, to establish the laws of God and to refrain from injustice, deception and falsehood, It will be the best course for everyone in this world and in eternity, so please don't try to make out that you are trying to help people by turning them away from God's path and thereby drawing God's wrath upon them. And leading them to hell.
It is as if you are attempting to portray the government of america as a hen trying to gather all the anarchists, satanists, infidels and hypocrites under it's wings and giving them freedom to obey the president of america, and to disobey God, whereas in actuality it is a fact that the government of America has for a long time been dependent on bloodshed in order to further it's main export industry and mitary dominance and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that such a Godless and bloodthirsty nation is doomed to fail and increase injustice as long as it continues upon that path, the math is obvious to any who cares to think.

Repent, there is no competition between America and God, and there is no logic in attemptng to get God to submit to secularism which is in essence atheism, anyone whoeven tries to compete with God is corrupt and doomed to fail mierably.

It is interesting to note the pretense of seeking reconciliation and goodwill on an equal footing, almost as if pleading for sanity when everybody notices the deceptions, the horrible crimes and evil intentions of atheism and begins to distance themselves from kufr and psychologically draw near to God.
A very old divide and lose and make losers strategy.

The authority and rule is God's, and so is the judgement, and i have no right whatsoever to compromise and bargain over how much authority God can have, my job is to tell you that it is essential that we all submit to God and establish His rule on earth according to the best of our abilities.


28.*A believer, a man from among the people of Pharaoh, who had concealed his faith, said: "Will ye slay a man because he says, 'My Lord is Allah.?- when he has indeed come to you with Clear (Signs) from your Lord? and if he be a liar, on him is (the sin of) his lie: but, if he is telling the Truth, then will fall on you something of the (calamity) of which he warns you: Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies!
29.*"O my People! Yours is the dominion this day: Ye have the upper hand in the land: but who will help us from the Punishment of Allah, should it befall us?" Pharaoh said: "I but point out to you that which I see (myself); Nor do I guide you but to the Path of Right!"
30.*Then said the man who believed: "O my people! Truly I do fear for you something like the Day (of disaster) of the Confederates (in sin)!-
31.*"Something like the fate of the People of Noah, the 'Ad, and the Thamud, and those who came after them: but Allah never wishes injustice to his Servants.
32.*"And O my people! I fear for you a Day when there will be Mutual calling (and wailing),
33.*"A Day when ye shall turn your backs and flee: No defender shall ye have from Allah. Any whom Allah leaves to stray, there is none to guide...
34.*"And to you there came Joseph in times gone by, with Clear Signs, but ye ceased not to doubt of the (Mission) for which he had come: At length, when he died, ye said: 'No apostle will Allah send after him.' thus doth Allah leave to stray such as transgress and live in doubt,
35.*"(Such) as dispute about the Signs of Allah, without any authority that hath reached them, grievous and odious (is such conduct) in the sight of Allah and of the Believers. Thus doth Allah, seal up every heart - of arrogant and obstinate Transgressors."
36.*Pharaoh said: "O Haman! Build me a lofty palace, that I may attain the ways and means-
37.*"The ways and means of (reaching) the heavens, and that I may mount up to the Allah of Moses: But as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!" Thus was made alluring, in Pharaoh's eyes, the evil of his deeds, and he was hindered from the Path; and the plot of Pharaoh led to nothing but perdition (for him).
38.*The man who believed said further: "O my people! Follow me: I will lead you to the Path of Right.
39.*"O my people! This life of the present is nothing but (temporary) convenience: It is the Hereafter that is the Home that will last.
40.*"He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed - whether man or woman - and is a Believer- such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): Therein will they have abundance without measure.
41.*"And O my people! How (strange) it is for me to call you to Salvation while ye call me to the Fire!
42.*"Ye do call upon me to blaspheme against Allah, and to join with Him partners of whom I have no knowledge; and I call you to the Exalted in Power, Who forgives again and again!"
43.*"Without doubt ye do call me to one who is not fit to be called to, whether in this world, or in the Hereafter; our return will be to Allah. and the Transgressors will be Companions of the Fire!
44.*"Soon will ye remember what I say to you (now), My (own) affair I commit to Allah. for Allah (ever) watches over His Servants."

[jabeady]

Does "One nation, under God" mean anything to you...

Nope.

...or has your ability to think clearly been confused so badly that you assume it means "one global godless anarchist nation run by crooks and blackmailed and bribed puppets"?

Nope.

And please don't try to pretend that america's atheist government was looking for reconiciliation and goodwill between truth and falsehood, the facts of the past 100 years demonstrate the wicked intentions of treacherous secularists and leeching corrupt usurer manipulators, pretending to be christian and jewish as it suits them in order to hold on to the reins of the masses and keep them in camps, you'd also have to wonder why Bush, cheney rumsfeld, wolfowitz et al staged the 9/11 false flag, then blamed it on Usama (who's father had set aside money for the unification of the divided people of Islam at the proper time he saw was at hand), and then claimed that God had told him to invade Afghanistan despite no official investigation or report into the events on 9/11 - making it an illegal invasion, then lying about Iraq and trying to claim that he was working with Muslims in removing Saddam whom his dad h.w had spitefully used to bully his neighbours whilst h.w was under regan and using the mujahideen in afghanistan to fight off russia and keep the opium fields for himself.

Wow!

Look, this is more your business than mine, but if you wouldn't mind a little stylistic advice from a native English speaker, try to divide your thoughts and ideas into separate sentences, divided by periods.

Other than that, conspiracy theories don't get much respect, as a rule. Yes, there are people who believe them, but for the most part they're regarded more as low - brow entertainment, something on the order of bathroom humor.

The Muslim nation...

The what?

...wasn't bothering anyone despite all the provocations via the zionist regime and vetoing of international action until sharon started to wake everyone up with his atrocities.....

He hit me first! He started it!

That was a children's excuse, until Trump started to use it. Now you seem to be adopting it.

BTW:

Ariel Sharon, Israeli Prime Minister, March 7, 2001 – 4 January 2006

Munich Massacre, 5–6 September 1972

...the truth has become clear to all of mankind by now and the only thing which remains is to submit to God...
28.*A believer, a man from among the people of Pharaoh, who had concealed his faith, said: "Will ye slay a man because...

You're seriously arguing with an atheist by preaching and quoting the Quran? Or are you trying to convince an atheist of Islam's truth by insult, ranting and raving? I'm confused; your possible agendas don't seem consistent with your methods.

[kritikvernunft]

But if a law is to be unjustified and oppressive and goes against the faith then there is no obligation to obey it ...There is no obligation to obey such oppressive laws ... If the secular nation is still a just nation with just laws for everyone then it's not contradicting Islam or opposing it in anyway. If its a xenophobic nation, like France, and other nations following that xenophobic intolerance path then they are not compatible as Islam stands against injustice and oppression.

Yes, the National State invents new law, and then attacks, while often targeting and singling out particular demographics for harassment. That strategy rests to an important extent on bluff. As I have argued before, if the confrontation revolves around the use of force, the National State will never be able to overcome the fundamental handicap that arises from the information asymmetry from which they suffer. It is trivial for their adversaries to precisely determine who and where exactly they are, while the reverse is obviously not trivial at all. Hence, the National State's ability to misbehave is entirely predicated on the expectation that their targets will not seek to retaliate, mostly on grounds of the false, pagan belief in the legitimacy of man-made law. Therefore, it is clear that the National State's power primarily rests on the population's tendency to paganism. That is obviously why the National State dislikes Islam so much. Islam reduces the National State's ability to inflict injustices, and hence prevents them from increasing their power. In that sense, your faith in Divine Law will make you a slave of the singular God, while your faith in man-made law will make you a slave of the National State. We may continue to negotiate as a matter of sophisticated tactics, but in fact, negotiations have become pointless. In my impression, the need has arisen to oppose the National State in approximately everything it does. In order to further enhance, increase, and enlarge the information asymmetry, in preparation of future conflict, it is a necessary strategy to further reduce the National State's ability to collect information on the population.

[Zafran]

This is something that's been on my mind for a long time, especially since the refugee crisis. I'm an atheist from Europe and I've been trying to learn about Islam for about 3 months now. Not because I want to convert, but because a huge amount of Muslims are coming to our countries since 2015. I'm not a huge fan of any religion and in my opinion secularism is one of Europe's greatest achievements. Hence my question:

Is Islam and Secularism compatible, especially for Muslims migrants?

Let me explain where I'm coming from. As an atheist I can't even fathom what it feels like to believe in God. I can't fathom what it feels like to actually have a book in which our creator explains everything to us. As far as I've understood it, Islam is like a very comprehensive instruction manual on life. It sets rules for nutrition, intercourse, law, social behavior etc., etc. Let's say I believe in all of this. I have no doubt that all of this is completely true. The Quran is Gods last and final word. Why would I ever integrate into any society, that goes against those rules? Why would I follow the constitution of a country, if I have my very own divine constitution? Why would I change my way of live in the slightest, if I believe my way is ordained by God?

Now I don't want to offend anybody. I don't mind usually, but I DO feel like I'm a guest here so I don't want to be rude. I seriously don't have an opinion on this and I'm dying to get some opinions from Muslims. You all have a great day. :)

Most of the refugees are running for there lives from war and destruction - ultimately they are looking for shelter and not to change the laws of European countries.

On top of that European countries dont share the same secular concepts - For example in the UK the head of state is the Queen but she is also the head of the church of England. So technically its a religious state.

However if you look at France or the European union its totally different.

[kritikvernunft]

... there is no logic in attemptng to get God to submit to secularism which is in essence atheism ... anyone who even tries to compete with God is corrupt and doomed to fail miserably.

It amounts to saying that man-made law is inconsistent and contradictory.

Hence, it means that there will always be possibilities to simultaneously derive "Yes, this particular behaviour is permissible" and "No, this particular behaviour is impermissible" from man-made law.

It does not help to extend man-made law with new rules in order to address such inconsistency, since the new system will again be inconsistent and contradictory. The existence of just one such contradiction, will simply trigger the principle of explosion. It will then be possible to prove that every kind of behaviour is permissible. It will also be possible to prove that every kind of behaviour is impermissible. What you then obtain, is trivialism:

Trivialism is the logical theory that all statements are true and that all contradictions of the form "p and not p" (e.g. the ball is red and not red) are true. In accordance to this, a trivialist is a person who believes everything is true.

That is why it is so easy to derive whatever truth that you want from man-made law:

Women should dress modestly and homosexuality is wrong.
Women must not dress modestly and there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.

All of this is simultaneously both true and false in a trivialist moral system. It is an arbitrary mechanism in which you can justify any possible statement. Of course, they will still use it judiciously, by justifying injustices, in order to increase their power over the pagan population. Hence, it is a requirement to wholesale reject man-made law, because its underlying mechanism is utterly unsound, and ultimately a dangerous practice. Seriously, you should never believe people who advocate the legitimacy of man-made law. They seek to obtain the right to lie, deceive, and mislead. Do not give them that prerogative.

[Abz2000]

Originally Posted by Abz2000
Does "One nation, under God" mean anything to you...

Nope.

You thereby accept that the American pledge of allegience is based upon falsehood and hypocrisy.....although it's impossible to pledge to a flag anyway since it is unable to hear.

Originally Posted by Abz2000
...or has your ability to think clearly been confused so badly that you assume it means "one global godless anarchist nation run by crooks and blackmailed and bribed puppets"?

Nope.

..........are you somehow claiming that the pledge of allegiance is obviously false and meaningless but that it's not crooked?

Originally Posted by Abz2000

And please don't try to pretend that america's atheist government was looking for reconiciliation and goodwill between truth and falsehood, the facts of the past 100 years demonstrate the wicked intentions of treacherous secularists and leeching corrupt usurer manipulators, pretending to be christian and jewish as it suits them in order to hold on to the reins of the masses and keep them in camps, you'd also have to wonder why Bush, cheney rumsfeld, wolfowitz et al staged the 9/11 false flag, then blamed it on Usama (who's father had set aside money for the unification of the divided people of Islam at the proper time he saw was at hand), and then claimed that God had told him to invade Afghanistan despite no official investigation or report into the events on 9/11 - making it an illegal invasion, then lying about Iraq and trying to claim that he was working with Muslims in removing Saddam whom his dad h.w had spitefully used to bully his neighbours whilst h.w was under regan and using the mujahideen in afghanistan to fight off russia and keep the opium fields for himself.

Wow!

Look, this is more your business than mine, but if you wouldn't mind a little stylistic advice from a native English speaker, try to divide your thoughts and ideas into separate sentences, divided by periods.

I type on a phone and therefore just write out thoughts and go back to edit usually after hitting "post" - when i feel like it, when i don't feel like it, i don't.

Other than that, conspiracy theories don't get much respect, as a rule. Yes, there are people who believe them, but for the most part they're regarded more as low - brow entertainment, something on the order of bathroom humor.

Fact - not theory, however, since secularism is based on deceit and conspiracy rather than solid fact, and the rules aren't really rules, it's better you see sense and submit to God before it's too late, the secularists have already raised a few generations where nothing other than animalistic gratification means anything and it's psychologically harmful, please don't try to harm mine by trying to dumb them down too.

Originally Posted by Abz2000
The Muslim nation...

The What?

The global network of Muslims who owe allegiance to God,
Skynet is intelligent software installed on hardware.
the secularists warp and corrupt the neural networks by accepting malware from engineered tv programs, lying newspapers and trusting in obviously false presidential promises, we pride ourselves on accepting only the best.

Originally Posted by Abz2000
...wasn't bothering anyone despite all the provocations via the zionist regime and vetoing of international action until sharon started to wake everyone up with his atrocities.....

He hit me first! He started it!
That was a children's excuse, until Trump started to use it. Now you seem to be adopting it.

Should've repented to God and walked in His true path, the fact that the secularists have so far continued in falsehood, deceit and injustice is what's causing the judgement of God upon them.

BTW:

Ariel Sharon, Israeli Prime Minister, March 7, 2001 – 4 January 2006

Munich Massacre, 5–6 September 1972

Ariel sharon has been behind some of the worst atrocities commited by the zionists since before the false U.N partition after germany was sanctioned, fined and provoked to boiling point by the zionists and hitler was selected as the tool to get jews to move to "mandate palestine".
Sharon was a commander in the Israeli Army from its creation in 1948.
It was only recently that peeople were able to share information and not depend on lying newspapers, and with events like the running over of rachel corrie who happened to be american that people around the world became aware.
The september '72 vent in munich could hardly be called a "massacre" especially when it was a hostage scenario which the kuffar botched
It is interesting however that you chose to mention that tiny event amongst so many others since it precedes the sabra and shatila massacres which it appears you are fully aware of and covering in advance.

Originally Posted by Abz2000
...the truth has become clear to all of mankind by now and the only thing which remains is to submit to God...
28.*A believer, a man from among the people of Pharaoh, who had concealed his faith, said: "Will ye slay a man because...

You're seriously arguing with an atheist by preaching and quoting the Quran? Or are you trying to convince an atheist of Islam's truth by insult, ranting and raving? I'm confused; your possible agendas don't seem consistent with your methods.

The response shows that an atheist cannot be reasoned with via simple logical explanations regardless of source despite claiming (albeit falsely) to be rationalist. Especially since the atheist has no solid source to stand upon.
Don't try to test God despite seeing the truth and having the ability to rectify wrongs amd refrain from injustice or you'll weep miserably. Repent, submit to God and accept His rules and you may be shown mercy, wasting time by arguing with falsehood amd pushing injustice will only get you into bigger problems, and that applies to me, you, and everybody else.

[greenhill]

Welcome to the forum.

What a spread of sub topics we have here..

I just had a flash thought going through my head after going tbrough the various comments.

It would appear that, apart from those countries that are already islamic based, although still secular the muslims in other places are slowly being oppressed, some forced to flee. Very much like the jews of times passed.

Often they go to neighbouring lands due to limited resources. And Allah is Most Forgiving.

The only thing I can see that, if fully implemented, might not be to everybody's liking would be the adhan. Well, it is not a 'see' thing. It is a hear thing. 5 times a day call to prayer sang out from the minarets of the mosque.

One of the pillars of islam. If there is no call, then it is out of total respect of the locals.

Islam is the middle road. It follows all the previous teachings in the flow of things. The media paints a torrid picture of it.

But I suggest you spend 93 minutes short (because at the end I wished he had 15 more minutes...) and watch YouTube Jeffrey Lang on the Purpose of Life.

Have a great stay.


:peace:

[M.I.A.]

mosques in my area are particularly advanced..

prayer timetables are available at most local shops and some mosques even have a radio system whereby adhan is broadcast to those with radios.

it seems widely accessible and moderate although I live in a predominantly muslim area..

very middle of the road.

although I haven't prayed in ages.. Maybe public adhans would change things up a bit.

and arouse the interests of passers by.

[jabeady]

You thereby accept that the American pledge of allegience is based upon falsehood and hypocrisy.....although it's impossible to pledge to a flag anyway since it is unable to hear.

Nope.

Look, the Pledge has about the same legal standing and significance as does the American Bison, Bald Eagle and, for that matter, the flag itself. They are symbols and nothing more. In fact, there are more penalties for harming the eagle and bison than there are for burning the flag or refusing to recite the Pledge.

Why some people insist on harping about the Pledge of Allegiance is beyond me. This doesn't include you, of course; it is self-evident that you will demonize virtually anything American, even Mickey Mouse. Come to think of it, do you have a conspiracy theory about Mickey? I'd like to hear it

..........are you somehow claiming that the pledge of allegiance is obviously false and meaningless but that it's not crooked?

Nope.

I'm claiming nothing at all about it. I don't care about it. I certainly care less about it than you do.

The response shows that an atheist cannot be reasoned with via simple logical explanations regardless of source despite claiming (albeit falsely) to be rationalist. Especially since the atheist has no solid source to stand upon.

And yet, here you are, attempting to "reason" with an atheist.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." George Bernard Shaw

Don't try to test God despite seeing the truth and having the ability to rectify wrongs amd refrain from injustice or you'll weep miserably. Repent, submit to God and accept His rules and you may be shown mercy, wasting time by arguing with falsehood amd pushing injustice will only get you into bigger problems, and that applies to me, you, and everybody else.

Threatening an atheist with hell is like threatening him with with getting no presents from Santa Claus.

[Abz2000]

Nope.

Look, the Pledge has about the same legal standing and significance as does the American Bison, Bald Eagle and, for that matter, the flag itself. They are symbols and nothing more. In fact, there are more penalties for harming the eagle and bison than there are for burning the flag or refusing to recite the Pledge.

Why some people insist on harping about the Pledge of Allegiance is beyond me. This doesn't include you, of course; it is self-evident that you will demonize virtually anything American, even Mickey Mouse. Come to think of it, do you have a conspiracy theory about Mickey? I'd like to hear itNope.

I'm claiming nothing at all about it. I don't care about it. I certainly care less about it than you do.And yet, here you are, attempting to "reason" with an atheist.

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." George Bernard ShawThreatening an atheist with hell is like threatening him with with getting no presents from Santa Claus.

God speaks the truth always, and when He tells us that the oaths of pagans and hypocrites mean nothing to them, but they use them as a screen for their misdeeds.
It's also amazing that you keep chanting it even school assemblies and that you (think that you) elect presidents and they chant a lot of oaths religiously but which mean nothing to them.
Mickey mouse, well the sexual undertones appear purposefully aimed at kids so i give them caillou or other Islamically acceptable cartoons.
I definitely hate getting dirty an pigs are indeed impure.
It is clear that facts mean nothing to religious atheists and they avoid thinking about obious factual conspiracies "as a rule" so i'll try and stay clean.
Just a piece of sincere advice, it's better that you accept the truth that is before your eyes, repent to God and submit in Islam, if you choose not to do so, then refrain harassing and harming Muslims and hanging around their feet like dogs and serpents, and if anyone claims to be Muslim yet rejects the rule of God, they can get out of Muslim lands and join their infidel and hypocrite counterparts, that way we can live in peace. And no human is responsible for what God does.
Adios.

[jabeady]

Mickey mouse, well the sexual undertones appear purposefully aimed at kids so i give them caillou or other Islamically acceptable cartoons.

Sexual undertones. Mickey Mouse.

Man! You are one sick cookie.

I definitely hate getting dirty...

Au contraire, mon frere, you seem to love it. If the dirt isn't already there, you'll provide it.

a piece of sincere advice, it's better that you accept the truth...

More preaching. Sigh.

Here's a little advice of my own: It may prove more beneficial for you to try teaching by example, rather than by sanctimonious invective and vitriol. Just a thought.

[Abz2000]

Sexual undertones. Mickey Mouse.

Man! You are one sick cookie.

It's easy to see what type of sickness lies behind the producers of such cartoons since there is absolutely no reason to push at toddlers pictures of a male mouse with hearts coming out of it's eyes whilst chasing after a slu#ty female mouse with long lashes, huge amounts of face plaster, and swinging it's hips.
They are not of an age to process such information correctly and it flies in the face of respect of others daughters and of marriage.

Au contraire, mon frere, you seem to love it. If the dirt isn't already there, you'll provide it.More preaching. Sigh.

The facts are easily discernable to any who cares to understand the difference between stating valid opinions, and trolling with non-issues and falsehood - despite the truth being ever present and such issues being very carefully steered around or indirectly smeared or attempted to be undone with illusions- thereby indicating acknowledgement and parallel denial.

Here's a little advice of my own: It may prove more beneficial for you to try teaching by example, rather than by sanctimonious invective and vitriol. Just a thought.

Easy to see the button pushing, prodding and trolling just from the last quote. A bit difficult to remain silent despite seeing through it since false narratives often become unwittingly accepted unless someone (no matter how seasoned) bothers to point out the facts, what exactly are you hoping to achieve on an internet forum which promotes Islam? Promote atheism? insistently argue with baseless terms and flags and oaths and other strawmen which you yourself admit to rejecting?
Anything constructive at all or just a contentment with throwing coins with undefined and undefinable secularism (Godlessness/atheism/anarchy/people worship) on both sides?
You know that's really trolling.

[jabeady]

It's easy to see what type of sickness lies behind the producers of such cartoons since there is absolutely no reason to push at toddlers pictures of a male mouse with hearts coming out of it's eyes whilst chasing after a slu#ty female mouse with long lashes, huge amounts of face plaster, and swinging it's hips.

You're not really Muslim, are you? I don't know what you really are, but for whatever reason you seem to want Islam to appear as ridiculous as possible.

I'm going to have to go on my computer to the full Web site to see if it has a blocking feature.

[Abz2000]

[IMG]You're not really Muslim, are you?

Well, you'd have to study Islam for a change and you'd know.

[anatolian]

This is something that's been on my mind for a long time, especially since the refugee crisis. I'm an atheist from Europe and I've been trying to learn about Islam for about 3 months now. Not because I want to convert, but because a huge amount of Muslims are coming to our countries since 2015. I'm not a huge fan of any religion and in my opinion secularism is one of Europe's greatest achievements. Hence my question:

Is Islam and Secularism compatible, especially for Muslims migrants?

Let me explain where I'm coming from. As an atheist I can't even fathom what it feels like to believe in God. I can't fathom what it feels like to actually have a book in which our creator explains everything to us. As far as I've understood it, Islam is like a very comprehensive instruction manual on life. It sets rules for nutrition, intercourse, law, social behavior etc., etc. Let's say I believe in all of this. I have no doubt that all of this is completely true. The Quran is Gods last and final word. Why would I ever integrate into any society, that goes against those rules? Why would I follow the constitution of a country, if I have my very own divine constitution? Why would I change my way of live in the slightest, if I believe my way is ordained by God?

Now I don't want to offend anybody. I don't mind usually, but I DO feel like I'm a guest here so I don't want to be rude. I seriously don't have an opinion on this and I'm dying to get some opinions from Muslims. You all have a great day. :)

Peace bro. Actually the answer is not so simple. But simply yes a muslim can live his religion under a Secular State as long as the state doesnt persecute muslims because of their religion in the name of secularism. We lived this a lot in China and Soviet Union in past. On the other hand yes if Muslims happen to be majority they can request an Islamic State which is well defined in Quran and Sunnah. But there are examples also, in which predominantly Muslims live but majority do not want an Islamic Sate, for example my country. So it is a bit complicated.

[anatolian]

Ataturk was not a state neutrality secular like the US founding fathers. He was a secular extremist, anti-theist , especially Islam and very culturally nationalist tyrant.

Salam Aleykum. I am sure you have studied His period very well to call Him a tyrant. But I cant call Him one although I accept that He did some mistakes.

[nadinesauriol]

This is something that's been on my mind for a long time, especially since the refugee crisis. I'm an atheist from Europe and I've been trying to learn about Islam for about 3 months now. Not because I want to convert, but because a huge amount of Muslims are coming to our countries since 2015. I'm not a huge fan of any religion and in my opinion secularism is one of Europe's greatest achievements. Hence my question:

Is Islam and Secularism compatible, especially for Muslims migrants?

Let me explain where I'm coming from. As an atheist I can't even fathom what it feels like to believe in God. I can't fathom what it feels like to actually have a book in which our creator explains everything to us. As far as I've understood it, Islam is like a very comprehensive instruction manual on life. It sets rules for nutrition, intercourse, law, social behavior etc., etc. Let's say I believe in all of this. I have no doubt that all of this is completely true. The Quran is Gods last and final word. Why would I ever integrate into any society, that goes against those rules? Why would I follow the constitution of a country, if I have my very own divine constitution? Why would I change my way of live in the slightest, if I believe my way is ordained by God?

Now I don't want to offend anybody. I don't mind usually, but I DO feel like I'm a guest here so I don't want to be rude. I seriously don't have an opinion on this and I'm dying to get some opinions from Muslims. You all have a great day. :)

As-Salaam-Alaikum,

The definition and application of secularism, especially the place of islamic religion in society, varies among islamic countries as it does among western countries.

Khuda Hafiz.