Realized I prayed salah before the time

[Aaqib]

So for dhuhr I prayd at 1:22 and it's actually 1:37, do I have to repray it?

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

Salaah performed before the time comes in is invalid. So yes, akhi.

The Salaah you had performed will count as Nafl Salaah.

[Aaqib]

Salaah performed before the time comes in is invalid. So yes, akhi.

The Salaah you had performed will count as Nafl Salaah.

But I may or may have been doing that for the past month or so, what can I do then?

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

All the Salaats performed before the time came in have to be repeated.

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[Aaqib]

All the Salaats performed before the time came in have to be repeated.

But I can't spend a whole day repraying Duhr salat 29 or so times?

[keiv]

But I can't spend a whole day repraying Duhr salat 29 or so times?

It's an honest mistake. Sometimes I'll be praying and then I hear the athan go off. I just finish what I'm praying and then pray it again. It's not a big deal. If you feel like you've done this constantly for a while, pray them during your free time or pray them after you've done one dhur prayer. Don't make it hard on yourself. It takes more time to watch a 30 minute tv show then it would to make up many of those late prayers :)

[crimsontide06]

Just pray it twice each day for whatever number of days.


Pray mondays prayer then right after, pray a missed one.

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

But I can't spend a whole day repraying Duhr salat 29 or so times?

One Qadhaa of Zhuhr = 4 Raka`aat.

If you make one Qadhaa after each of the five daily Salaats, you'll complete five a day. In six days you'll have completed all 30.

[Samiun]

Salaah performed before the time comes in is invalid. So yes, akhi.

The Salaah you had performed will count as Nafl Salaah.

Isn't the emphasis placed more on the position of the Sun so the brother may had prayed a few mins early but the Sun could have already been at its place for Dhuhr?

[jabeady]

Does the OP really matter? Does a compassionate Allah really care about an error of five or so minutes if the intention is pure?

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Does the OP really matter? Does a compassionate Allah really care about an error of five or so minutes if the intention is pure?

Hi. You're right. From a spiritual perspective, a compassionate God never cares about an understandable human error. However, as people of beautiful intentions to peacefully submit to the will of God, we care that from a juristic perspective that we committed an error and want to rectify it to show our sincerity to God. You see, sincerity should always be a two-way street: God is always sincere with us. Therefore, it only behooves us to return that sincerity with gestures of good faith as well. Repeating our prayers would come in the category of latter. :)

Think of it this way, although this is perhaps a very poor analogy, and I apologize for that inadequacy of this explanation; still, this might explain an atom of the kind of relationship we should have ideally with God in terms of our own intentions. For example, you as a man may do beautiful things to show your sincerity for a partner such as buying flowers, celebrating her birthday, paying for dinners, and anything else that comes to your mind. However, wouldn't you want to have someone equally show that sincerity to you in this relationship?

[Huzaifah ibn Adam]

Isn't the emphasis placed more on the position of the Sun so the brother may had prayed a few mins early but the Sun could have already been at its place for Dhuhr?

There is no certainty that the time really had come in, so we have to say that the Salaah must be re-performed.

[jabeady]

To tell if the sun is in a certain position, even astronomers must consult references and then a timepiece; mariners do the same. What if the timepiece is wrong, the person mistakes his precise position, or consults the wrong line or column of the ephemeris (There, I remembered the word! I hate getting older)? In any of these cases, the error would not be recognized and never atoned for or corrected.

[aaj]

To tell if the sun is in a certain position, even astronomers must consult references and then a timepiece; mariners do the same. What if the timepiece is wrong, the person mistakes his precise position, or consults the wrong line or column of the ephemeris (There, I remembered the word! I hate getting older)? In any of these cases, the error would not be recognized and never atoned for or corrected.

Islam came to make life easy, not hard. If one does their out most best and go with that then they are free from blame or sin inshallah. Allah knows our limits and ask not more than what we can handle.

[Samiun]

@jabeady

Is it really hard to tell when the Sun Sets and when the Dawn of Sun occurs?

[aaj]

Here's a good read on finding out the time of the prayers. Something even a poor illiterate farmer can do.

https://islamqa.info/en/9940

[jabeady]

@jabeady

Is it really hard to tell when the Sun Sets and when the Dawn of Sun occurs?

It can be. For example, due to refraction in the atmosphere, the sun's image is still apparently visible for a period of time after it has actually descended below the horizon. Does Islam take this into account?

[Samiun]

Well do you find it hard to know when exactly the Sun is setting? Like you see everything suddenly becoming dark at that moment so do you doubt your are experiencing a sun set? Or when you see the sky suddenly becomes reddish, do you doubt that a Sunset is occurring or maybe something else is happening(not a sunset).

[Aaqib]

Turns out that the website I've been using was just acting funky, alhamdullilah.

Back to no prayer times and staring at the sun!

[jabeady]

Well do you find it hard to know when exactly the Sun is setting?

Exactly? Yes, without an ephemeris. See my previous post. That's the whole point of the OP: he's worried about praying at the exact time.

How far off can you be, while still praying at exactly the right time?

Like you see everything suddenly becoming dark at that moment so do you doubt your are experiencing a sun set? Or when you see the sky suddenly becomes reddish, do you doubt that a Sunset is occurring or maybe something else is happening(not a sunset).

Sigh.

Wikipedia:
"Near to the horizon, atmospheric refraction causes the ray path of light from the Sun to be distorted to such an extent that geometrically the Sun's disk is already about one diameter below the horizon when sunset is observed."

In other words, the sun, itself, is already entirely below the horizon *before* its image begins to disappear below the horizon. The sun has already set although you can still see its image.

As to getting dark, now you're talking about twilight/dusk, you are *not* talking about sunset.

Really, this is basic astronomy. It was Muslim astronomers who first came up with this stuff.

[Samiun]

My point is, I just wanted to know if you can figure out when a sunset is happening, like if you are able to tell or not whether it is happening or not happening. That's it. Stop making it complicated. Can't you tell if it's Sunset when the Sun is setting just by looking at the Sea toward's the direction of the Sun? Or if you are in middle of town and you look up and start to see the sky turning reddish? Isn't that a sign of Sunset?

If I am not mistaken you might be thinking the EXACT moment when a Sunset occurs, with the formula? Then I do not know how to use that. I just use what is visible to the eye.

I do not know what an Ephemeris is.

Really, this is basic astronomy. It was Muslim astronomers who first came up with this stuff.

You are correct, really. But Wikipedia is banned from being used as a source material for referencing in universities. Really, this is basic referencing.

[jabeady]

My point is, I just wanted to know if you can figure out when a sunset is happening, like if you are able to tell or not whether it is happening or not happening. That's it. Stop making it complicated. Can't you tell if it's Sunset when the Sun is setting just by looking at the Sea toward's the direction of the Sun? Or if you are in middle of town and you look up and start to see the sky turning reddish? Isn't that a sign of Sunset?

Yes, it's a *sign* of sunset, but it tells you nothing about when the sun actually sets. Arguably, it may well be because of atmospheric refraction that *no one* has ever actually seen the sun set.

If I am not mistaken you might be thinking the EXACT moment when a Sunset occurs, with the formula? Then I do not know how to use that. I just use what is visible to the eye.

I do not know what an Ephemeris is.

An ephemeris is a table of numbers, that allows you to calculate various astronomical events and the positions of the planet's and stars. To use it, you must have an accurate timepiece and a means of determining your exact position. Alternatively, you can use these tools to determine your position, rather than a star's position. Before GPS, these were the primary tools for mariners at sea and surveyors.

My own primary point is that, in the case of sunrise and sunset, "what is visible to the eye" is wrong.

And my question is, since "what is visible to the eye" is wrong, does Islam take this into account when determining prayer times? If not, doesn't Islam permit an inherent margin of error in determine these times?

If a margin of error is allowed, then why would the OP have to "make up" a prayer that wasn't made exactly on time?

You are correct, really. But Wikipedia is banned from being used as a source material for referencing in universities. Really, this is basic referencing.

Yeah, I know. But for purposes of these forums it's convenient. I certainly wouldn't use Wiki for a formal paper, but I haven't written a formal paper for 30 years. Besides, this post will be forgotten five minutes after you read it, so I see no point in spending a lot of time on it.

[Samiun]

Let me just say you have an outstanding observation, however I won't answer any other question because we haven't resolve the issue of Sunset.

Can you just define what is a Sunset according to you(Maybe we should have done this first)

My definition of a Sunset, when the Sky turns Red and then transitions into darkness. If you are by the beach, you would see it slowly sink into the horizon until darkness engulf the scene. There, Simple? Just plain, simple, external observation.

The question I asked was fairly simple, can you see the Sunset or not(the process of a Sunset)? It's like asking whether you can see what the TV is projecting real or not but then someone comes in explaining that in actual fact the pixels are the ones generating the pictures.

Yes, it's a *sign* of sunset, but it tells you nothing about when the sun actually sets.

Ok let me try to understand your view. I asked you a simple question whether you can tell or not if a Sunset is occurring and you said it's difficult because you believe that you are the correct 100% without a doubt hypothesis tested proven scientist material.

So you can tell by the sign that the sun is setting and like normal people we call that a sunset BUT you believe that that's not actually a Sunset or that's not really one because the Sun actually already goes over the horizon and what we are seeing is refraction yes?

My own primary point is that, in the case of sunrise and sunset, "what is visible to the eye" is wrong.

Why the emphasis? Science always changes, you might think you could be right but then again you might be wrong later on.

Yeah, I know. But for purposes of these forums it's convenient. I certainly wouldn't use Wiki for a formal paper, but I haven't written a formal paper for 30 years. Besides, this post will be forgotten five minutes after you read it, so I see no point in spending a lot of time on it.

There's no going back, you have piqued my interest on Astronomy.

[jabeady]

Can you just define what is a Sunset according to you(Maybe we should have done this first)

My definition of a Sunset, when the Sky turns Red and then transitions into darkness. If you are by the beach, you would see it slowly sink into the horizon until darkness engulf the scene. There, Simple? Just plain, simple, external observation.

The US Naval Observatory: "Sunrise and sunset conventionally refer to the times when the upper edge of the disk of the Sun is on the horizon. Atmospheric conditions are assumed to be average, and the location is in a level region on the Earth's surface."

By this definition, a prayer at sunset or sunrise must be performed *precisely* at the moment the sun's upper edge is on the horizon. Anything else is late or early, depending. Note, however, that to take refraction into account, you would have to begin the evening prayer when the sun's *bottom* edge is on the horizon; the timing of the morning prayer would always have to be a guess.

The question I asked was fairly simple, can you see the Sunset or not(the process of a Sunset)? It's like asking whether you can see what the TV is projecting real or not but then someone comes in explaining that in actual fact the pixels are the ones generating the pictures.

Simple question, complex answer. Think of it this way: When you are looking at the sunset, you are actually looking around a corner at something that has already passed by.

To demonstrate refraction, fill a clear glass with water and drop an unsharpened pencil into it, so that part of the pencil is above the surface. Examine from all sides, then answer the question, Where is that part of the pencil that is under water?

you can tell by the sign that the sun is setting and like normal people we call that a sunset BUT you believe that that's not actually a Sunset or that's not really one because the Sun actually already goes over the horizon and what we are seeing is refraction yes?

Yes.

Here's more from the USNO: "Accuracy of rise/set computations. The times of rise and set phenomena cannot be precisely computed, because, in practice, the actual times depend on unpredictable atmospheric conditions that affect the amount of refraction at the horizon. Thus, even under ideal conditions (e.g., a clear sky at sea) the times computed for rise or set may be in error by a minute or more. Local topography (e.g., mountains on the horizon) and the height of the observer can affect the times of rise or set even more. It is not practical to attempt to include such effects in routine rise/set computations."

Next paragraph:
"The accuracy of rise and set computations decreases at high latitudes. There, small variations in atmospheric refraction can change the time of rise or set by many minutes, since the Sun and Moon intersect the horizon at a very shallow angle. For the same reason, at high latitudes, the effects of observer height and local topography are magnified and can substantially change the times of the phenomena actually observed, or even whether the phenomena are observed to occur at all."

Even precise measurements, therefore, cannot tell you the exact times of sunset and sunrise.

Why the emphasis? Science always changes, you might think you could be right but then again you might be wrong later on.

First, I wasn't emphasizing, I was quoting.

You're right about science self-correcting as new facts come to light. However, it also gives answers according to what we know at the time, and requires evidence of error before changing those answers. If there is no evidence of error, especially where the current theory accounts for all known observations, there is no reason to question or alter the current theory.

There's no going back, you have piqued my interest on Astronomy.

Then my work here is done. [emoji1]

However, back to my questions. Since the timing of sunset and sunrise is so vague, why should the OP be worried about being precise? There are times when honest error can be catastrophic, but is this one of them?

BTW, I think my question is apt, since Islam is commonly credited with practicing and preserving the sciences, astronomy among them. I'm just curious whether and how Islam has kept up with progress in this particular field.

[aaj]

The US Naval Observatory: "Sunrise and sunset conventionally refer to the times when the upper edge of the disk of the Sun is on the horizon. Atmospheric conditions are assumed to be average, and the location is in a level region on the Earth's surface."

By this definition, a prayer at sunset or sunrise must be performed *precisely* at the moment the sun's upper edge is on the horizon. Anything else is late or early, depending. Note, however, that to take refraction into account, you would have to begin the evening prayer when the sun's *bottom* edge is on the horizon; the timing of the morning prayer would always have to be a guess.

Simple question, complex answer.

However, back to my questions. Since the timing of sunset and sunrise is so vague, why should the OP be worried about being precise? There are times when honest error can be catastrophic, but is this one of them?

BTW, I think my question is apt, since Islam is commonly credited with practicing and preserving the sciences, astronomy among them. I'm just curious whether and how Islam has kept up with progress in this particular field.

Everybody is making this more complex then it really is.

Maghrib starts immediately after the time for ‘Asr ends, which is when the sun sets, until the twilight or red afterglow has faded. When the red afterglow has disappeared from the sky, the time for Maghrib ends and the time for ‘Isha’ begins. Defining this time by the clock varies according to the season.

Don't need to look at the clock, just look outside. If it's couldy then have an idea around what time it set last time you saw it and wait another 5-10 minutes.

[jabeady]

This still doesn't answer my question: Since the timing of sunset and sunrise is so vague, why should the OP be worried about being precise? There are times when honest error can be catastrophic, but is this one of them?

[aaj]

This still doesn't answer my question: Since the timing of sunset and sunrise is so vague, why should the OP be worried about being precise? There are times when honest error can be catastrophic, but is this one of them?

Well to answer your question. No one here is saying that the prayer should be right on the dot when it's time. Rather there is a time window within which things must be done. Anytime before or after that time window isn't exactly being diligent, is it?

While it's not end of the world, it is following the rules of and respecting the time given for that task. You showing up an hour late at work isn't end of the world but that isn't exactly what the agreed upon start time is. And if you were being paid hourly then that is an hour worth of income you loose. by the same token, not performing prayer within the time window given won't really get you the credit for it.

[jabeady]

OK, your "time window" makes perfect sense. The way the conversation was going, I couldn't tell there was one. Thank you.

[nadinesauriol]

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