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MazharShafiq
09-20-2016, 07:50 AM
i was thinking about about paper currency that is it real money ? will it cheat us at the end ? is it a slip of gold ? etc
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ardianto
09-20-2016, 08:35 AM
Go to the shop near you and buy something with your paper money. If your paper money can be used to buy something, it's mean your paper money is the real money.
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MazharShafiq
09-20-2016, 10:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Go to the shop near you and buy something with your paper money. If your paper money can be used to buy something, it's mean your paper money is the real money.
dear i think you know nothing about history of paper currency . i know that this topic is boring but when you know all facts you will be entrusted . in start people buy and sell against gold or other expensive things but carrying of gold and other expensive things was very risky . so people gave their gold to jewelers and jewelers write a slip against that gold and people can buy anything by giving that slip to seller and that slip is called nowadays paper currency . now if we have 10k usd we cant get gold for which 10k usd are slip ......
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ardianto
09-20-2016, 11:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MazharShafiq
dear i think you know nothing about history of paper currency . i know that this topic is boring but when you know all facts you will be entrusted . in start people buy and sell against gold or other expensive things but carrying of gold and other expensive things was very risky . so people gave their gold to jewelers and jewelers write a slip against that gold and people can buy anything by giving that slip to seller and that slip is called nowadays paper currency . now if we have 10k usd we cant get gold for which 10k usd are slip ......
Paper currencies that circulated nowadays are not backed by gold. Government can print paper currency as much as they want, on material that has no intrinsic value. In this side, indeed, paper currency have no value. But do paper currency really have no value like lay people assume?. You will know it when you try to buy something. If your paper currency can be used to buy something. it's means your paper currency still have real value. And the real value is the factor that make paper currency can be used as currency.

With 10k usd you can buy gold in value of 10k usd. But the weight of gold that you buy today might be different than if you buy next week. It's because there is fluctuation that happen on the paper currency value and on the gold price.

By the way, i studied in faculty of economics, business management major. And now I fulfill my family needs from my small business.
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MuslimInshallah
09-20-2016, 12:32 PM
Assalaamu alaikum,

(smile) Ardianto, indeed, knows something about running a business. But Mazhar raises an interesting point, in that using things such as paper money that have no intrinsic value, as a means of trading with one another, depends on the belief and trust that people put into this paper money. If people lose trust, then the whole system breaks down (and this has happened in the past). Furthermore, it seems to me that with all the abuses being committed by all too many people in high finance, that the trust in the system is being eroded.

May Allah, the Wise, Help us to restrain our fears and desires.
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kritikvernunft
09-20-2016, 12:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MazharShafiq
i was thinking about about paper currency that is it real money ?
Yes, for as long as it is. It cannot last, though.
format_quote Originally Posted by MazharShafiq
will it cheat us at the end ?
Yes, always.

You see:

[1] money_in_circulation = debt ..... because that is how money is created by the banking system
[2] to_repay = debt + interest ..... because they do not lend it for free
[3] to_repay = money_in_circulation + interest ..... because of [1]
[4] to_repay > money_in_circulation

So, if the banking system does not keep creating new money, you will see defaults and bankruptcies all over.
However, if the banking system keeps creating new money, you get more money chasing the same amount of goods and services. That means: inflation. That means: the money becomes gradually worthless.

This system could only possibly work if the growth of the income/production is larger than the growth of the volume of money.

Reality check 1: The economy has stopped growing.
Reality check 2: They keep creating enormous amounts of money.

You see, the enormous mass of new money just keeps going into the stock exchange. As long as the stock exchange keeps going up, the investors don't care, because they expect that their holdings will become worth more, not because these companies are making more profits and paying out more dividends, but because the next investor will agree to pay more for the current investors' shares. So, it is effectively a Ponzi scheme. If this mechanism no longer works, these investors will flee into commodities: gold, silver, wheat, rice, oil, other foodstuffs, and so on. That means that the prices will suddenly go through the roof. That means that paper money will only be able to buy a fraction of what it could buy before. That means that the money has become worthless.

At the core of the banking system and its money creation process, you have riba/interest. That is exactly the reason why it will collapse. Seriously, there are good reasons why riba/interest is haraam. The fact that riba/interest will completely destroy the existing financial system is only just one of them.
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aaj
09-20-2016, 01:18 PM
Paper currency initially was backed by gold so it had value. Now it is backed by the belief that it is honored by gov't and is of the value written on it. Should a war break out or collapse of a system, the paper will be good for burning to keep warm only. It will most definitely be useless at time of Mahdi.
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M.I.A.
09-20-2016, 01:49 PM
many empires have come and gone..

the world keeps turning.


http://yournewswire.com/1994-vice-ar...to-911-towers/

Attachment 5696
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ardianto
09-20-2016, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
Assalaamu alaikum,

(smile) Ardianto, indeed, knows something about running a business. But Mazhar raises an interesting point, in that using things such as paper money that have no intrinsic value, as a means of trading with one another, depends on the belief and trust that people put into this paper money. If people lose trust, then the whole system breaks down (and this has happened in the past). Furthermore, it seems to me that with all the abuses being committed by all too many people in high finance, that the trust in the system is being eroded.

May Allah, the Wise, Help us to restrain our fears and desires.
Wa'alaikumsalam sister MuslimInshallah

In marketplace where multiple currencies are used, trust determine a currency will be accepted or not. In place like this, like in stores in some border area, the seller prefer to receive currency from one country than currency from another country. But in market where single currency is used, then no matter how low this currency value compared with other currencies, people will still use it, due to the money "liquid nature".

If a seller receive paper money, then he will be easily to use this money to buy something. Different than if the seller is paid by a commodity that maybe is not accepted when he want to buy something. The only thing that will make people leave this low value currency is 'infiltration' of the stronger foreign currency. People will not stop using paper currency. They just move from the weaker currency to the stronger currency.

Nowadays economics is huge, and we don't have enough gold to cover economic activities if we want to move from paper currency back to gold.
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ardianto
09-20-2016, 03:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
You see, the enormous mass of new money just keeps going into the stock exchange. As long as the stock exchange keeps going up, the investors don't care, because they expect that their holdings will become worth more, not because these companies are making more profits and paying out more dividends, but because the next investor will agree to pay more for the current investors' shares.
People will interested to buy a company shares from current investor in secondary stock market because this company gain much profit or predicted will gain much profit. But if this company gain losses, not only people will not interested to buy, but the current investors will gain loss too.

So, it is effectively a Ponzi scheme.
Ponzi scheme is scheme for money game that often 'camouflaged' as investment. But what you describe above is not Ponzi scheme. If you buy shares from the investors, then the money will not go to the company. It same like you buy used car from the current owner which the money does not go the dealer.

If this mechanism no longer works, these investors will flee into commodities: gold, silver, wheat, rice, oil, other foodstuffs, and so on. That means that the prices will suddenly go through the roof. That means that paper money will only be able to buy a fraction of what it could buy before. That means that the money has become worthless.
If investing in stock market is no longer interesting, then people will go to few specific commodities or stuff, like gold or land. Only few, not all commodities. Foodstuffs can be a good choice for business, but considered as suicidal choice for investment because foods have an expired time. If you cannot sell your food until the expired time, then you will gain big loss.
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MuslimInshallah
09-20-2016, 05:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Wa'alaikumsalam sister MuslimInshallah

In marketplace where multiple currencies are used, trust determine a currency will be accepted or not. In place like this, like in stores in some border area, the seller prefer to receive currency from one country than currency from another country. But in market where single currency is used, then no matter how low this currency value compared with other currencies, people will still use it, due to the money "liquid nature".

If a seller receive paper money, then he will be easily to use this money to buy something. Different than if the seller is paid by a commodity that maybe is not accepted when he want to buy something. The only thing that will make people leave this low value currency is 'infiltration' of the stronger foreign currency. People will not stop using paper currency. They just move from the weaker currency to the stronger currency.

Nowadays economics is huge, and we don't have enough gold to cover economic activities if we want to move from paper currency back to gold.
Assalaamu alaikum Ardianto,

I'm afraid that I disagree a little with you. If people do not believe that a currency is worth anything, they won't be able to use it. I remember hearing my grandfather talking about the collapse of the German Mark during the depression. People would cart literally wheelbarrow loads full of paper money in the hope of being able to buy something, but people wouldn't accept it. He told me about a friend of his who went to a café and needed to pay for his meal, but the only thing he could pay with was his wedding ring.

There was also all the chaos in the ex-Soviet Union when its currency collapsed; a lot of people lost their life savings, you know. And then... there are also the shells and feathers that were used as currencies in the past by various peoples... they became worthless when they were no longer regarded as having value.

You are right that we need to have some sort of method of exchange. But we also need to have some faith that the method that we use is worth something, and that it is stable and at least somewhat fair. The incredible levels of fraud in our current system, it seems to me, is undermining our faith in this system.

In Germany, the faith was restored by inventing a "new" Mark. (smile) So yes, one currency replaced the other. But the corruption in our current system is worrisome. The central bankers of the world have been doing some more and more odd things to try to keep things going, and this has staved off the worst for now. But it concerns me that nothing has been done about the corruption; so it is getting worse. The loss of faith in even one currency can cause chaos. What would happen if the loss of trust was more generalized?

(smile) I hope I have clarified my point a little. What you say is true; we do need a system of exchange. My point is more one of what happens when people lose faith in the system, and why they might lose this faith.

May God, the Generous, Bless you for your interesting and informative posts.
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kritikvernunft
09-21-2016, 04:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
You are right that we need to have some sort of method of exchange.
Assalaamu alaikum MuslimInshallah,

Agreed. The alternative of only bartering would badly depress people's income.
format_quote Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
But we also need to have some faith that the method that we use is worth something, and that it is stable and at least somewhat fair.
I disagree. We must fundamentally NOT have faith in anything that is man-made.

The only legitimate faith is trust in the one, singular, true God. All other faiths are always in one way or another, false, pagan beliefs. In the singular God we can trust, and in nothing else.

If something is possibly a lie, then it is probably a lie, and then you should behave is if it were a lie. First mistake: you should never save fiat money, because that represents trust in the pagan fiat god. Exchange it to gold or anything else that the National State cannot liberally print.
format_quote Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
The incredible levels of fraud in our current system, it seems to me, is undermining our faith in this system.
A man-made system must be expected to be fraudulent.

Theory of deception says that it is the aggregate belief itself in the deceptive statement (a=b) that fuels the growth in the total amount of deception ((b-a)²).

Growing misery is always the result of widespread false, pagan beliefs, and the misery always ends up turning on the pagans themselves.

Hence, the levels of fraud just confirm what we actually knew already. Therefore, it is not new information, and should therefore not make any difference to us. If you reasonably assume that the system is fraudulent, and you adjust your behaviour accordingly, your position will automatically become anti-fragile, and hence oblivious to the inevitable collapse of such fraudulent system. Therefore, when push comes to shove, your position will increase in value, while the positions of the pagans will lose in value. Since these pagans are the victims of their own false beliefs, and since it was very predictable that they would lose, the pagans should never complain about the misery that befalls them. They have always asked for it.
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MazharShafiq
09-21-2016, 05:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
Yes, always.

You see:

[1] money_in_circulation = debt ..... because that is how money is created by the banking system
[2] to_repay = debt + interest ..... because they do not lend it for free
[3] to_repay = money_in_circulation + interest ..... because of [1]
[4] to_repay > money_in_circulation

So, if the banking system does not keep creating new money, you will see defaults and bankruptcies all over.
However, if the banking system keeps creating new money, you get more money chasing the same amount of goods and services. That means: inflation. That means: the money becomes gradually worthless.

This system could only possibly work if the growth of the income/production is larger than the growth of the volume of money.

Reality check 1: The economy has stopped growing.
Reality check 2: They keep creating enormous amounts of money.

You see, the enormous mass of new money just keeps going into the stock exchange. As long as the stock exchange keeps going up, the investors don't care, because they expect that their holdings will become worth more, not because these companies are making more profits and paying out more dividends, but because the next investor will agree to pay more for the current investors' shares. So, it is effectively a Ponzi scheme. If this mechanism no longer works, these investors will flee into commodities: gold, silver, wheat, rice, oil, other foodstuffs, and so on. That means that the prices will suddenly go through the roof. That means that paper money will only be able to buy a fraction of what it could buy before. That means that the money has become worthless.

At the core of the banking system and its money creation process, you have riba/interest. That is exactly the reason why it will collapse. Seriously, there are good reasons why riba/interest is haraam. The fact that riba/interest will completely destroy the existing financial system is only just one of them.
i agree , today we see this issue boring but when some people (Jews) who are collecting gold more and more , want to destroy this financial system ,they will force us third world war and current financial system which based on paper money will be destroyed then all paper money will be as white paper no value and then who have gold (real money ) will be lead all the world and all the people who have no gold will be slave
Allah help us to understand anything against islam and resolve it
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kritikvernunft
09-21-2016, 07:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MazharShafiq
... some people (Jews) who are collecting gold more and more , want to destroy this financial system ...
The financial system is a large collective belief. As such, it competes with the one, true belief. All large, collective beliefs that are not the belief in the one singular, true God, are despicable, pagan depravities. These pagan beliefs must be destroyed. Only the one, true belief in the singular God should be allowed to be large and collective.
format_quote Originally Posted by MazharShafiq
... then who have gold (real money ) will be lead all the world ...
I show my disapproval of the false pagan belief in paper money and its riba/interest origins by accumulating bitcoin. I do not really accumulate gold, because it is difficult to protect, and difficult to transfer around the world. My alternative is not perfect, but it is still a strong statement against this massive, false, pagan trust in paper money. Some day, we will discover what the one, singular God wants us to use as money. Up till then, we must just keep looking.
format_quote Originally Posted by MazharShafiq
... and all the people who have no gold will be slave ...
If you are a slave of the one, singular God already, how can you simultaneously be the slave of someone else?
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MazharShafiq
09-21-2016, 08:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
If you are a slave of the one, singular God already, how can you simultaneously be the slave of someone else?

what you say about the slaves in time of hazrat muhammad (sallalaho ale hi wasallam ) are they not the slaves of Allah Tala ? as real owner of slave is Allah Tala and non real may be other
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