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thinkreal93
09-24-2016, 08:46 PM
Hi guys.
I know this can be an outrageous topic but it needs to be given attention.

We all know Mecca in Saudi Arabia is considered the most sacred site in Islam. It was known an 'the mother of cities', and was a very important city in Arabia, in regard to religion as well as trade.

Yet, Mecca practically doesn't exist at least before the 7th century. No historical archaeological documents support Mecca as such a significant settlement. No historical maps acknowledge it. One would think that an important trade & religious centre would have some form of acknowledgement. But no. There was practically no Mecca.

Moreover, the geographical descriptions of Mecca as given in hadiths don't fit with the Mecca in Saudi Arabia. There is no parallel valley. There are no olive tree plantations. There are no fertile lands as there are supposed to be as given in hadiths.

So guys. What are your thoughts ? I think it's a very important topic to think about.
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AabiruSabeel
09-24-2016, 10:12 PM
:sl:

Welcome to IslamicBoard.

I think you are confusing between the Ahadith related to Makkah and Madinah. Madinah is mentioned in the Hadith as a fertile land with palm trees, not Makkah.

As for historical records, even Wikipedia can help you with your research: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca#History

Makkah as a city was non-existent before Ibrahim :as:. When Ibrahim :as: left his wife Hajra :raha: and son, Isma'eel :as: at the Ka'bah, it was a valley without cultivation (14:37). Later on, a tribe from Yemen stayed there and it became a city.


One of the reasons why you do not find Makkah in historical records is because historically, Arabs were nomads and they did not settle in a place. It was only after the emergence of Zamzam water (after Ibrahim :as: left his wife and son there) that people began settling there. Until then, it was a barren land.
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eesa the kiwi
09-24-2016, 10:58 PM
its in the bible which predates the 7th century at least
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thinkreal93
09-25-2016, 07:03 AM
Originally Posted by ibn-Adam
:sl:

Welcome to IslamicBoard.

I think you are confusing between the Ahadith related to Makkah and Madinah. Madinah is mentioned in the Hadith as a fertile land with palm trees, not Makkah.

As for historical records, even Wikipedia can help you with your research: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca#History

Makkah as a city was non-existent before Ibrahim :as:. When Ibrahim :as: left his wife Hajra :raha: and son, Isma'eel :as: at the Ka'bah, it was a valley without cultivation (14:37). Later on, a tribe from Yemen stayed there and it became a city.


One of the reasons why you do not find Makkah in historical records is because historically, Arabs were nomads and they did not settle in a place. It was only after the emergence of Zamzam water (after Ibrahim :as: left his wife and son there) that people began settling there. Until then, it was a barren land.
Oh I'm sorry. I shouldn't have stated the word "fertile". And no, I am not confusing Mecca & Medina. But from the hadith, Mecca is a land of clay & loam and had water & trees & grass.

And I'm not talking of Mecca around prophet Ibrahim's time. I'm talking about the 4th /5th centuries, when prophet Muhammad was around and when the Quran was revealed, describing Mecca as a sanctuary, mother of cities. An important trade & religious centre. But then, there IS no mention of Mecca.

Moreover, remember the Quranic verse stating that the prophet used to pass by prophet Lut's town by day & night ? Prophet Lut's town is way up in northern Arabia ! To pass by it in the day & night, you have to live in close proximity to it. Not hundreds of kilometres further down.
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AabiruSabeel
09-25-2016, 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by thinkreal93
Oh I'm sorry. I shouldn't have stated the word "fertile". And no, I am not confusing Mecca & Medina. But from the hadith, Mecca is a land of clay & loam and had water & trees & grass.

And I'm not talking of Mecca around prophet Ibrahim's time. I'm talking about the 4th /5th centuries, when prophet Muhammad was around and when the Quran was revealed, describing Mecca as a sanctuary, mother of cities. An important trade & religious centre. But then, there IS no mention of Mecca.

Moreover, remember the Quranic verse stating that the prophet used to pass by prophet Lut's town by day & night ? Prophet Lut's town is way up in northern Arabia ! To pass by it in the day & night, you have to live in close proximity to it. Not hundreds of kilometres further down.

This is the first time someone has claimed this. You must heard things from someone thought them to be true. Can you quote the exact Hadith that you are referring to?

And also the Quranic verse that you are speaking about? There is no such verse that says Prophet Muhammad :saws: used to pass by the city of Lut :as: by day and night.
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thinkreal93
09-25-2016, 07:12 PM
For the Quranic verses, see 37:137-138 "And indeed, you pass by them in the morning

And at night. Then will you not use reason?"

Moreover, see 20:128 "Then, has it not become clear to them how many generations We destroyed before them as they walk among their dwellings? Indeed in that are signs for those of intelligence." The generations talked about in the Quran are those of Thamud, 'Ad, Lut's people, Midyan etc. If you look it up, you may find all these ancient towns in northern Arabia. So Mecca should be situated on one of these places.
And as mentioned before, the place of Lut's people is passed by in the morning & night. It was on a well established road. (15:76). Meaning an important trade route.

As for the hadith regarding the land Mecca is supposed to have (but does not), see Sahih Bukhari 4:281, 9:337 and Tirmidhi 1537. Also Mecca supposed to be in a valley within which there is supposed to be a stream. I also read somewhere that the mountains Safa & Marwah are not actually in such close proximity as we see today in Mecca. However I don't know if this particular one is true or not.

There you have it.
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AabiruSabeel
09-25-2016, 09:29 PM
Have you read the background and history of the Arab tribes? The verses that you have quoted refer to the well-known trade route of Quraish and other Arab tribes. They used to travel all the way from Yemen to Syria for trade, passing through Mada'in Saleh and several other towns.

In the verse 37:137 "And indeed, you pass by them in the morning", the you is in the plural form, in Arabic, وإنكم wa-innakum which clearly refers to the trade caravans and the people in general, not to the Prophet :saws: as an individual.

Read the Tafsir and understand the details:

Here, the people of Makkah have been particularly admonished that they passed by the site of Sadum (Sodom) day and night while traveling with theirs trade caravans to the country of Syria, and Sadum was a place where this grave event came to pass, an event full of vital lessons, yet they failed to learn any. The time of morning and evening was particularly mentioned for the reason that the people of Arabia generally used to pass through here during these very hours. [Ma'ariful Qur'an]

And the other verses that you are referring to, all of them point to the same. Arabs were traders and their generations used to pass through the same route.


As for the Hadith, can you quote the Hadith directly here? Because the numbering that you have given seems confusing.
Bukhari 4:281 Do you mean this Hadith? http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh4/bh4_284.htm
or this one? http://sunnah.com/bukhari/5/33
Tirmidhi 1537, Do you mean this one? http://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/20/15

None of these mention Makkah as a land of trees. As for water, there is Zamzam water. Everyone knows that.


What are you actually up to? Your intentions do not seem right.
Reply

Born_Believer
09-25-2016, 09:43 PM
I think everyone has posted enough information to help the OP if he had a genuine question. However, I will add that when people say "Oh Mecca didn't show up in maps before such and such century", which maps are they talking about ? There were hardly any maps covering the Arabian peninsula and there was not a single map, before the Islamic age, which could be regarded as a world map. certainly not an accurate one, so which map or maps is being mentioned here?

Also, Mecca is spoken about in historical texts previously, so again, there isn't much of a controversy or discussion here beyond the very basics of history.
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thinkreal93
09-26-2016, 04:39 AM
For Bukhari 4:281 I mean the first link you provided.

For Bukhari 9:337 :Narrated Aisha: One night the Prophet was unable to sleep and said, "Would that a righteous man from my companions guarded me tonight." Suddenly we heard the clatter of arms, whereupon the Prophet said, "Who is it?" It was said, "I am Sa`d, O Allah's Apostle! I have come to guard you." The Prophet then slept so soundly that we heard him snoring. Abu `Abdullah said: `Aisha said: Bilal said, "Would that I but stayed overnight in a valley with Idhkhir and Jalil (two kinds of grass) around me (i.e., in Mecca)." Then I told that to the Prophet .


In al Tabari VI 1079 page 6, it shows that there was clay & loam in or around Mecca. But the Mecca of Saudi Arabia doesn't have any land of clay or loam.
Tabari talks about "Abdallah, the father of Muhammad visited a wife whom he had in addition to Aminah bint Wahb ibn ’Abd Manaf ibn Zuhrah. He had been working in the soil and traces of soil were still on him when he invited her to lie with him. She made him wait because of this. He went out, performed his ablutions, washed off the clay which was on him". *

I apologize, I think that was a numbering mistake I made & didn't notice for Tirmidhi. I assure you I'm not trying to deceive anyone. It is actually Tirmidhi 1535 :
Once when I was with the Prophet in Mecca and we went out into one of its districts in the neighbourhood, not a mountain or tree which confronted him failed to say, “Peace be upon you, Messenger of Allah.” Tirmidhi and Darimi transmitted it.*

And in Sirat Rasul Allah, 72 (Guillaume, 2006, pg 46)*When they came to Mecca they saw a town blessed with water and trees and delighted with it, they settled there.*


As for the Quran verses, I know it is in the plural and doesn't mean just the prophet. What caravan would finish it's business just in one day and return to it's city in night ?
And 20:128 doesn't refer to walking through ancient ruins during a trade journey. See how it says that "they walk among their dwellings". Meaning, it was a regular thing to do.
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thinkreal93
09-26-2016, 05:22 AM
Originally Posted by Born_Believer
I think everyone has posted enough information to help the OP if he had a genuine question. However, I will add that when people say "Oh Mecca didn't show up in maps before such and such century", which maps are they talking about ? There were hardly any maps covering the Arabian peninsula and there was not a single map, before the Islamic age, which could be regarded as a world map. certainly not an accurate one, so which map or maps is being mentioned here?

Also, Mecca is spoken about in historical texts previously, so again, there isn't much of a controversy or discussion here beyond the very basics of history.
There were many historical maps before the Islamic age. 7th century Byzantine map shows no Mecca. 7th century Arab frankincense route map shows no Mecca !! Look up the multiple 7th century maps of Arabia. See Ptolemaeus' map for example.

Historical mentions of Mecca are very few, and those may actually be referring to other places. You see, there were multiple kaabas & temples in Arabia at that time to which Arabs paid visit.
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Futuwwa
09-26-2016, 07:01 AM
Originally Posted by thinkreal93
So guys. What are your thoughts ?
That you are a concern troll posing as a Muslim.
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thinkreal93
09-26-2016, 07:15 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
That you are a concern troll posing as a Muslim.
Well you're wrong. Sorry not sorry to burst your bubble.
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Futuwwa
09-26-2016, 07:53 AM
Burst? LOL. You still have provided absolutely no reason for me to doubt my assessment. You come here claiming to be concerned about a topic, but once people engage you, you do nothing but argue a predetermined position with an array of obviously prepared points.
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thinkreal93
09-26-2016, 08:41 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Burst? LOL. You still have provided absolutely no reason for me to doubt my assessment. You come here claiming to be concerned about a topic, but once people engage you, you do nothing but argue a predetermined position with an array of obviously prepared points.
Well yes, you may call it predetermined because I looked into this whole topic and therefore brought the topic to this forum with my "obviously prepared points". And yes it is a topic of concern, as it should be.
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Futuwwa
09-26-2016, 10:05 AM
While showing no interest in anything anyone else says, other than how to refute it. Also, interestingly enough, you seem to "know" all kind of little minutiae, but then, you say that "Muhammad was around and the Quran was revealed" in the 4th / 5th centuries. Dude, that's two centuries off, an elementary school religion class level basic error. The Hijrah is classically held to have happened in 622 AD. No, the truth of the matter is, you found a polemic somewhere, ate it up uncritically, and are now posing as a concerned Muslim in order to peddle it.

Not saying you aren't a Muslim at all, since that'd be a severe sin in case you actually are one, which I maintain there's a tiny probability of being the case. If you are one though, you're not a very knowledgeable one at all, and obviously out looking for pretexts to disbelieve.

Troll better next time.
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thinkreal93
09-26-2016, 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
While showing no interest in anything anyone else says, other than how to refute it. Also, interestingly enough, you seem to "know" all kind of little minutiae, but then, you say that "Muhammad was around and the Quran was revealed" in the 4th / 5th centuries. Dude, that's two centuries off, an elementary school religion class level basic error. The Hijrah is classically held to have happened in 622 AD. No, the truth of the matter is, you found a polemic somewhere, ate it up uncritically, and are now posing as a concerned Muslim in order to peddle it.

Not saying you aren't a Muslim at all, since that'd be a severe sin in case you actually are one, which I maintain there's a tiny probability of being the case. If you are one though, you're not a very knowledgeable one at all, and obviously out looking for pretexts to disbelieve.

Troll better next time.
Believe what you want. Defending my motive is not my primary concern.

I know I made a few mistakes (for some God-knows-what reason) in the initial posts. I accepted it & corrected myself. That doesn't disqualify the topic. And it's a pretty genuine topic that needs attention. If you're not interested in the facts, you don't have to care about it.
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Futuwwa
09-26-2016, 12:23 PM
How cute. Now you're hiding behind the topic and its importance, and want to disassociate it from your person, and implying that anyone who doesn't humour you is uninterested in truth. That, after a failed attempt at manipulation by posing as something you're not. Ummm, no.
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thinkreal93
09-26-2016, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
How cute. Now you're hiding behind the topic and its importance, and want to disassociate it from your person, and implying that anyone who doesn't humour you is uninterested in truth. That, after a failed attempt at manipulation by posing as something you're not. Ummm, no.
Uuhhhh.... What ??!!
Sure...
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Scimitar
09-26-2016, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by thinkreal93
Hi guys.

Yet, Mecca practically doesn't exist at least before the 7th century.
Hi yaself (or salaam rather)

Listen to some logical output from me.

Absence of Proof does not equate to Proof of Absence.

I guess you didn't learn LOGIC in class.

Ever heard of Herodotus,? Pliny the Elder? Pseudo Calisthenes? Pseudo Methodius? Josephus? etc etc etc?

Your proof is there, within those historians records.

Scimi
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Born_Believer
09-26-2016, 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by thinkreal93
There were many historical maps before the Islamic age. 7th century Byzantine map shows no Mecca. 7th century Arab frankincense route map shows no Mecca !! Look up the multiple 7th century maps of Arabia. See Ptolemaeus' map for example.

Historical mentions of Mecca are very few, and those may actually be referring to other places. You see, there were multiple kaabas & temples in Arabia at that time to which Arabs paid visit.
Again, I am asking you for any single world map before the Muslims first drew it. Can you link me to one?

You mention Ptolemy's map and then say no more. Do you know how that map was actually created and what it features? It's loosely based on some of Ptolemy's writings at the time and the use of longitude and latitude but misses out large chunks of the world which he and others who were involved in it's illustration, did not know about. Did you know that almost all of the southern half of Africa is missing?

So, I guess by your logic, southern Africa only came into existence in the 7th century? :facepalm:

Seriously man, if you want to troll, you might try harder.
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thinkreal93
09-27-2016, 12:54 AM
Originally Posted by Born_Believer
Again, I am asking you for any single world map before the Muslims first drew it. Can you link me to one?

You mention Ptolemy's map and then say no more. Do you know how that map was actually created and what it features? It's loosely based on some of Ptolemy's writings at the time and the use of longitude and latitude but misses out large chunks of the world which he and others who were involved in it's illustration, did not know about. Did you know that almost all of the southern half of Africa is missing?

So, I guess by your logic, southern Africa only came into existence in the 7th century? :facepalm:

Seriously man, if you want to troll, you might try harder.
Why do we need a single world map to know a certain detail of the Arabian peninsula ?? The maps I'm referring to are those of Arabia and areas around it only, drawn by people who travelled the region. And that's sufficient to know where an important trade & religious centre is located.

If you had to search for a certain particular port city in Europe, why would you need to have a map of China and India too.

Whatever happened to common sense these days ...
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Search
09-27-2016, 01:20 AM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

I don't have anything valuable to contribute on this specific topic, but I have been following this thread with interest: So, I just wanted to ask you as to how your interest developed in this topic? And my second question is what would the answer look like that would satisfy you and why?

Thank you in advance for your response.

Originally Posted by thinkreal93
Why do we need a single world map to know a certain detail of the Arabian peninsula ?? The maps I'm referring to are those of Arabia and areas around it only, drawn by people who travelled the region. And that's sufficient to know where an important trade & religious centre is located.

If you had to search for a certain particular port city in Europe, why would you need to have a map of China and India too.

Whatever happened to common sense these days ...
:wa: (And peace be upon you)
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Zafran
09-27-2016, 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by thinkreal93
Why do we need a single world map to know a certain detail of the Arabian peninsula ?? The maps I'm referring to are those of Arabia and areas around it only, drawn by people who travelled the region. And that's sufficient to know where an important trade & religious centre is located.

If you had to search for a certain particular port city in Europe, why would you need to have a map of China and India too.

Whatever happened to common sense these days ...
There is no accurate maps by the Romans or the Persians of the Arabian peninsula. They also didnt have a high opinion of the Arabs. What map pre Ptolemy are you referring to here?

Lastly Mecca was not some huge city like Rome or Ctesiphon - It was a smaller trading city that the Quraysh had hold over. With plural/polytheistic religions. It relied on trade and different polytheistic religion worshiping there.
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thinkreal93
09-27-2016, 05:56 AM
Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

I don't have anything valuable to contribute on this specific topic, but I have been following this thread with interest: So, I just wanted to ask you as to how your interest developed in this topic? And my second question is what would the answer look like that would satisfy you and why?

Thank you in advance for your response.



:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Wa 'alaikum salam.

Well I just found it while internet surfing (I don't exactly remember what I was looking up) and when I read more of it, it made sense to me. I'm still not entirely sure about it - I need to dig deeper.

As for your 2nd question, I'm not looking for satisfactory answer. I just wanted people to know and think about this.
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Born_Believer
09-27-2016, 08:50 AM
Originally Posted by thinkreal93
Why do we need a single world map to know a certain detail of the Arabian peninsula ?? The maps I'm referring to are those of Arabia and areas around it only, drawn by people who travelled the region. And that's sufficient to know where an important trade & religious centre is located.

If you had to search for a certain particular port city in Europe, why would you need to have a map of China and India too.

Whatever happened to common sense these days ...
Wait, have you backed off the Ptolemy thing or what? Because his map doesn't include a massive chunk of Africa, so I assume it didn't exist before the 7th century either?

Common sense eh?
Reply

Born_Believer
09-27-2016, 08:52 AM
Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

I don't have anything valuable to contribute on this specific topic, but I have been following this thread with interest: So, I just wanted to ask you as to how your interest developed in this topic? And my second question is what would the answer look like that would satisfy you and why?

Thank you in advance for your response.



:wa: (And peace be upon you)
No answer will satisfy him with his motives.

Someone on here already mentioned a number of people from even before the rise of Islam in Makkah who had mentioned the city in their writings and he failed to respond to that post.

I reckon a mod should just close this down.
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anatolian
09-27-2016, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by thinkreal93
As for your 2nd question, I'm not looking for satisfactory answer...
;D
"Trolling is a method of fishing where one or more fishing lines, baited with lures or bait fish, are drawn through the water. This may be behind a moving boat, or by slowly winding the line in when fishing from a static position, or even sweeping the line from side-to-side, e.g. when fishing from a jetty. Trolling is used to catch pelagic fish such as salmon, mackerel and kingfish." Wikipedia
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thinkreal93
09-27-2016, 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by Born_Believer
No answer will satisfy him with his motives.

Someone on here already mentioned a number of people from even before the rise of Islam in Makkah who had mentioned the city in their writings and he failed to respond to that post.

I reckon a mod should just close this down.
Oh you mean the guy who mentioned Herodotus, Pliny, Josephus ??? If you looked on what they had to say, they didn't document any Mecca in Arabia.

You should check the next time you want to back your case.. Thanks
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thinkreal93
09-27-2016, 09:48 AM
Originally Posted by Born_Believer
Wait, have you backed off the Ptolemy thing or what? Because his map doesn't include a massive chunk of Africa, so I assume it didn't exist before the 7th century either?

Common sense eh?
Dude I'm talking about what he documented of Arabia. Since there's no whole of Africa in his map, then that means he didn't travel the whole of Africa. Simple as that, right ?

He did document the Hejaz in his time and he did not document Mecca. He did find a certain Macoraba where Arabs flocked to, but it was a recent town, not an ancient one from prophet Ibrahim's time centuries back.
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thinkreal93
09-27-2016, 09:51 AM
Originally Posted by anatolian
;D
"Trolling is a method of fishing where one or more fishing lines, baited with lures or bait fish, are drawn through the water. This may be behind a moving boat, or by slowly winding the line in when fishing from a static position, or even sweeping the line from side-to-side, e.g. when fishing from a jetty. Trolling is used to catch pelagic fish such as salmon, mackerel and kingfish." Wikipedia
Oh God.... This is serious.. I'm not trying to troll ! Why does everyone think I'm trolling or deceiving here ??!!
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Search
09-27-2016, 01:03 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

I don't know the answer to your question, though I'm sure I could find an answer (even if you say you're not looking for a satisfactory one) if I put the thought, time, and research into the matter. I'd honestly suggest you do the same too as you've already acknowledged you "need to dig deeper."

In recent history, I'd note that Palestine, for example, supposedly had became "erased" from Google maps which had created a controversy with some individuals supporting Google's omission saying that Palestine doesn't actually exist as an acknowledged state while others arguing otherwise. Finally, the tech giant had issued a clarification that the label of Palestine had never existed on the map while also clarifying that a technical glitch had removed the labels for West Bank and Gaza Strip and that the tech giant will fix this glitch as soon as feasible. Also, Crimea which is claimed by both Russia and Ukraine is mapped differently on Google maps depending from which country one is searching; this rather means that at least sometimes maps are born of sociopolitical understanding and other times from region-centric point of view.

I doubt that the world has changed so much that sociopolitical understandings or region-centric view had not also shaped previously other historical maps.

Also, I beg to differ with you on one issue, which is that it is "an important topic to think about" (i.e. words in the opening post) when Muslims have rather more important issues facing them than the lack of clarity as a point on ancient maps such as election of future leaders who'll be shaping understanding of contemporary world maps.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)

Originally Posted by thinkreal93
Wa 'alaikum salam.

Well I just found it while internet surfing (I don't exactly remember what I was looking up) and when I read more of it, it made sense to me. I'm still not entirely sure about it - I need to dig deeper.

As for your 2nd question, I'm not looking for satisfactory answer. I just wanted people to know and think about this.
Reply

thinkreal93
09-27-2016, 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

I don't know the answer to your question, though I'm sure I could find an answer (even if you say you're not looking for a satisfactory one) if I put the thought, time, and research into the matter. I'd honestly suggest you do the same too as you've already acknowledged you "need to dig deeper."

In recent history, I'd note that Palestine, for example, supposedly had became "erased" from Google maps which had created a controversy with some individuals supporting Google's omission saying that Palestine doesn't actually exist as an acknowledged state while others arguing otherwise. Finally, the tech giant had issued a clarification that the label of Palestine had never existed on the map while also clarifying that a technical glitch had removed the labels for West Bank and Gaza Strip and that they're going to go back and fix the glitch. Also, Crimea which is claimed by both Russia and Ukraine is mapped differently on Google maps depending from which country one is searching; this rather means that at least sometimes maps are born of sociopolitical understanding and other times from region-centric point of view.

I doubt that the world has changed so much that sociopolitical understandings or region-centric view had not also shaped previously other historical maps.

Also, I beg to differ with you on one issue, which is that it is "an important point to think about" when Muslims have rather more important issues facing them than the lack of clarity as a point on ancient maps such as election of future leaders who'll be shaping understanding of contemporary world maps.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Yes I understand the way you're looking at it, seeing there are a bundle of big problems different Muslims carry and the need to deal with them.
I wanted to bring this up from religion-centric point of view, because if Mecca was indeed not where it is thought to be, that would be a huge thing.

I also get how socio-political or regional issues could affect the location of a particular town/area but I don't know of any such conflict/issue that may have centered around Mecca at that time.

Thanks for your input.
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Scimitar
09-27-2016, 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by thinkreal93
Hi guys.

Yet, Mecca practically doesn't exist at least before the 7th century.
that's coz Arabia is ATLANTIS

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Zafran
09-27-2016, 10:56 PM
The people that came up with this was Patricia Crone and the revisionists - outside of that nobody has actually taken it seriously. Your basically saying that all the Muslims/ arabs are basically lying about Mecca. God knows what that would actually achieve. Even beyond the sects/ schools of thought/civil wars in the history of Islam nobody has ever disagreed about about Mecca and Medina.
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thinkreal93
09-28-2016, 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
The people that came up with this was Patricia Crone and the revisionists - outside of that nobody has actually taken it seriously. Your basically saying that all the Muslims/ arabs are basically lying about Mecca. God knows what that would actually achieve. Even beyond the sects/ schools of thought/civil wars in the history of Islam nobody has ever disagreed about about Mecca and Medina.
Yeah okay, and I think their points are very reasonable. When the facts are there, it doesn't matter if the majority thinks otherwise. See Catholicism for example. There are over a billion Catholics in the world - meaning their majority believe in the divinity of Christ. Muslims believe that's total falsehood.

So can it not be said that majority of Muslims are influenced by falsehood (if it actually is true that Mecca in Saudi Arabia isn't the real Mecca) ??? I'm not saying majority are lying. I'm saying majority just think so. What if they've actually been tricked into believing that this Mecca is in Saudi Arabia ??
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Scimitar
09-28-2016, 04:17 PM
So who were the Hagarites? Or how about 5th century BCE historian Herodotus citing the land of "Arabia" inhabited by "Arabs"???

or how about Paran and Bakkah mentioned in the OT? referring to the wilderness known as Arabia today and th city of Makkah respectively?

Or how about the 9th century BCE inscriptions on the kurkh monoliths referring to Arabia as Aram?

i can go on and on and on but your study of history is typically biased; you parrot the mainstream narrative when anyone with half a brain cell will tell you "the victor writes history with his own hand, and that hand is often dirty"

i mix study comparatively and the is why I have stumped the OP 3 times now in this thread and he hasn't even humoured me with a response.

what a joke.

Scimi
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Al Sultan
09-28-2016, 05:03 PM
Scimi I'm your number 1 fan,wallahi bro
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thinkreal93
09-28-2016, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
So who were the Hagarites? Or how about 5th century BCE historian Herodotus citing the land of "Arabia" inhabited by "Arabs"???

or how about Paran and Bakkah mentioned in the OT? referring to the wilderness known as Arabia today and th city of Makkah respectively?

Or how about the 9th century BCE inscriptions on the kurkh monoliths referring to Arabia as Aram?


When did I deny the existence of Arabia ? I am simply questioning the Mecca in present day Saudi Arabia.

Arabia, particularly the Arabia in the south isn't a wilderness. It's a desert. The wilderness of Paran is somewhere near the Sinai, not far south.

You humor me with your confusion.
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Scimitar
09-28-2016, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by thinkreal93
When did I deny the existence of Arabia ? I am simply questioning the Mecca in present day Saudi Arabia.

Arabia, particularly the Arabia in the south isn't a wilderness. It's a desert. The wilderness of Paran is somewhere near the Sinai, not far south.

You humor me with your confusion.
You are unilingual, I take it. You read scripture, linearly - this is obvious since you do not know that the word "wilderness" in Hebrew Aramaic refers to exactly this: Arabia.

Since time immemorial - historians of old have referred to the lands of Arabia as "the wilderness" because it's a death trap to those who do not know how to navigate it's harsh and unwelcoming climate. Don't take my word for it, go get yourself an Hebrew Aramaic lexicon and see for yourself... or read the very same historians I mentioned in my first post in this thread

You're claim for Sinai - I made a video about:



I'm more than aware of where the REAL Sinai is, but it seems proponents from Christianity and Judaism can't even tell where their holy places are and now want to point fingers to Muslims - rich :D

With regards to your referencing the fertile areas of Arabia - it is Isaiah 21:13 is what you refer to - and this verse specifically refers to the mixed race tribe of Israelites who went further south in to Arabia in order to wait for the "prophet of the end time"...

The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim. Isaiah 21:13

Here is the initial context:

11 The burden of Dumah. He calleth to me out of Seir, Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night?
12 The watchman said, The morning cometh, and also the night: if ye will enquire, enquire ye: return, come.
13 The burden upon Arabia. In the forest in Arabia shall ye lodge, O ye travelling companies of Dedanim.
14 The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled.

The Dedanites were Mixed Race Children of Israel, who had bred with the Northern Arabs - their cousins... this was entirely natural and not a big deal during that time frame. The languages share common roots and so do their human roots - thru Abraham the prophet pbuh.

Abraham married Hagar who was Egyptian, and their first born, Ishmael pbuh was mixed race.

Solomon pbuh married many women apparently and had an harem of women from all nations.

Moses pbuh married an Arab woman, in fact - his coupling was the first biblically recognised Dedanite coupling.

Can you now see why your line of enquiry has more holes in it than swiss cheese?

Scimi


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thinkreal93
09-28-2016, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
You are unilingual, I take it. You read scripture, linearly - this is obvious since you do not know that the word "wilderness" in Hebrew Aramaic refers to exactly this: Arabia.

Since time immemorial - historians of old have referred to the lands of Arabia as "the wilderness" because it's a death trap to those who do not know how to navigate it's harsh and unwelcoming climate. Don't take my word for it, go get yourself an Hebrew Aramaic lexicon and see for yourself... or read the very same historians I mentioned in my first post in this thread

You're claim for Sinai - I made a video about:



I'm more than aware of where the REAL Sinai is, but it seems proponents from Christianity and Judaism can't even tell where their holy places are and now want to point fingers to Muslims - rich :D

With regards to your referencing the fertile areas of Arabia - it is Isaiah 21:13 is what you refer to - and this verse specifically refers to the mixed race tribe of Israelites who went further south in to Arabia in order to wait for the "prophet of the end time"...



Can you now see why your line of enquiry has more holes in it than swiss cheese?



No. In fact I don't quite understand why you wanted to present a whole set of mixed-race people. Are you trying to imply that that's how you connected northern & southern Arabia ? It's funny that you should mention *archeological evidence* in support for Jabl Musa being the real Sinai. Are you aware that there is NO archeological evidence to support the Mecca in Saudi Arabia is the real Mecca ???

Yeah, I'm not really versed with Hebrew or Aramaic. You're probably right about Arabia being referred to as the 'wilderness'. Doesn't really change anything.

Try to explain this. Why is there no proper documentation of Abraham being down in southern Arabia in Mecca (KSA) ? You would say he settled in Paran, but only after presuming Paran=southern Arabia and Becca=Mecca.

Why is there no archeological evidence of Mecca ? It is supposed to be a really significant historic place.

Why is Mecca KSA not on the trade route ? Why is there no clay or loam or trees or grass in Mecca KSA, as mentioned in hadith ?

Why are the oldest mosques not pointed towards Mecca KSA as their qibla ?
Reply

Futuwwa
09-28-2016, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by thinkreal93
Try to explain this. Why is there no proper documentation of Abraham being down in southern Arabia in Mecca (KSA) ?
Uh, maybe because there is no reason whatsoever for any ancient chronicler to mention him? To anyone who doesn't know about his prophethood, he would just look like a completely ordinary dude with a slightly larger-than-average flock of animals.

You're as clueless as one guy I once encountered who claimed that Jesus is proven to never have existed because there are no Roman government census or tax records of him.
Reply

thinkreal93
09-28-2016, 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Uh, maybe because there is no reason whatsoever for any ancient chronicler to mention him? To anyone who doesn't know about his prophethood, he would just look like a completely ordinary dude with a slightly larger-than-average flock of animals.

You're as clueless as one guy I once encountered who claimed that Jesus is proven to never have existed because there are no Roman government census or tax records of him.
Abraham's journey throughout his lifetime according to the Bible is known, starting from Iraq going west towards Jerusalem uptil in the Sinai area. If he also lived some part of his life about 1000 kms further south, why isn't that known ? That was what I was asking.
1000 kms is a long distance to be associated with, compared to other places such as Sinai area, Becca, Jerusalem which are all close to each other and situated way up.
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Futuwwa
09-28-2016, 07:10 PM
You're speaking as if the Biblical account of Abraham is a historical source, one that has such evidentiary weight that if any Islamic source is inconsistent with it, it would prove the Islamic source to be untrue.
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thinkreal93
09-28-2016, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
You're speaking as if the Biblical account of Abraham is a historical source, one that has such evidentiary weight that if any Islamic source is inconsistent with it, it would prove the Islamic source to be untrue.
Well there is no other source we can depend on for his biography, other than the religious ones, right ? And the Bible is very much backed by archaeology. Do you have another source that would be helpful ?
Reply

Born_Believer
09-28-2016, 08:25 PM
Can this thread be closed already? It's clearly not a discussion.
Reply

thinkreal93
09-28-2016, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Born_Believer
Can this thread be closed already? It's clearly not a discussion.
How is it not a discussion ? We're exchanging our thoughts & ideas here. That's what a discussion is.
Reply

Born_Believer
09-28-2016, 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by thinkreal93
How is it not a discussion ? We're exchanging our thoughts & ideas here. That's what a discussion is.
A discussion is not echanging whatever fantastical view pops up into your mind and then adamantly standing behind even when you've been proven wrong. To top it all off, you then moved to the story of Abraham AS and used the Bible as a historical source ;D

Please, it's clear you have no intention of even trying to reach a better understand, you are just trolling or at worst trying to mislead people.
Reply

AabiruSabeel
09-28-2016, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by thinkreal93
Why is there no archeological evidence of Mecca ? It is supposed to be a really significant historic place.
The Zamzam water spring is sufficient historical proof. Absence of records do not mean they did not exist.

Originally Posted by thinkreal93
Why is Mecca KSA not on the trade route ?
Some of the historians say, the traders used to travel along the Red sea coast, and Makkah is situated inland. Even the Quraish, when they traveled from Makkah, they used to turn towards the sea and join the coast along present day Rabigh, as is evident from various historical records.

Originally Posted by thinkreal93
Why is there no clay or loam or trees or grass in Mecca KSA, as mentioned in hadith ?
Who says so? Have you ever traveled to Makkah?

See these pictures from Makkah:



Taken from http://livinginmakkah.blogspot.com/2...h-patient.html

Originally Posted by thinkreal93
Why are the oldest mosques not pointed towards Mecca KSA as their qibla ?
What a joke! See the exact Qiblah of one of the oldest Mosques in San'a:




If you know Arabic, which I doubt you would, I recommend you to browse this website: http://makkawi.com/
It has a lot of information regarding Makkah Al-Mukarramah, in case you are interested.
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