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AnnaK
09-25-2016, 01:32 AM
Why do so many Muslims condemn trans people? Let me explain a little bit.

The Quran talles about the two sexes, male and female. Sex, as contrary to many believe, have nothing to do with gender. Gender is a social construct that gives us a means to identify ourselves (whether we identify as man, woman, non-binary, gender nonconforming, agender, bigender, trigender, pangender, demigemder, amd all the other identities).

Sex on the other hand refers to genitalia and gonads: meaning a penis, testes, vulva, ovaries. Now I have to ask the question of, why does it matter if your gender identity "aligns" with your sex? Why does it matter what gender someone identifies as?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Quran repeatedly talks about two sexes, but NOT about gender. From this you can take a stance that it doesn't matter about identity, so long as you don't change your genitalia. Yet if you do this, you have to reconcile with the fact that Iran, a country with Islam as the national religion, conducts the second most amount of sex reassignment surgeries out of all known countries (mainly because they see it as a cure for being gay).

This all brings me back to my original question of why do so many Muslims condemn gender minorities? Is there some part of the Holy Quran that talks about gender identities that I missed?

I support gender minorities, and I can't quite understand why others don't. Hope the rant wasn't too long for some of you.
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Little_Lion
09-25-2016, 01:54 AM
I will post two opposing views, so as to help guide the discussion for those who may not see "the other side" very often.

In favor of transgenderism in Islam: https://www.quora.com/What-does-Isla...s-do-they-face

Opposed to transgenderism in Islam: https://islamqa.info/en/138451

My own opinion: final judgement is up to Allah against any individual. Even if one sees being transgender is a sin, who is to say that they are a greater sinner than the next person? We are not the final judge and we have been warned not to act as one.
Reply

Search
09-25-2016, 02:19 AM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

First and foremost, welcome to IB!

Hopefully, you're doing well InshaAllah (God-willing).

The truth is that I am sympathetic to you, sister. Yet the truth is also that I don't know what the right answer is; I'm not an Islamic scholar and simply a layperson. I don't ever want to hurt your feelings as you're an honored and precious human being to Allah, and yet I also note that perhaps you can use your own intelligence and heart to evaluate information presented and make judgments about any fatwa (legal rulings). One such fatwa is called Transgender performing Nikah.

I'd like to stress to you again that you are precious to Allah, and Allah is our Judge. As far as the Muslim community is concerned, Muslims are human beings and as such will disappoint you sometimes or many times; another point to note is that the Muslim community is one that is still a fledgling one in the West, most especially the U.S. and we're still finding our way here as a minority. In terms of the Muslim community, I think disappointments coincide unfortunately with the territory of us being fallible and having foibles as human beings. That is why I request that you entrust the information of you being transgender only to close persons whom you trust and not strangers unknown in the Muslim community as I do not want you to ever feel stigmatized, and I cannot guarantee that you unfortunately won't be as people generally otherwise whom they cannot easily understand. All I can guarantee to you and myself is that Allah gives, as a hadith (prophetic tradition) states, wealth to those whom He loves and those whom He does not love but Allah only gives religion to those whom He loves. Let that truth light your way in life like a candle and also remain hugged to your heart even when we as human beings may disappoint you.

Thank you for your consideration and patience, dear sister.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Reply

Search
09-25-2016, 02:28 AM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

I also found a fatwa (ruling) that is really in favor of treating you as you are and actually accepting of you as you are:

Gender Change Question

Posted on July 30, 2012 by Shaykh Gibril Fouad Haddad

Question:

Salam,
Seven years ago I went through Gender Reassignment treatment I went from being a man to transgender female. Although I am Muslim I did it because as a child since age seven, I always felt I was in the wrong body and that I wanted to be female. My life growing up to early adulthood was very painful as society rejected me as the third gender. So, I went to scholars and psychiatrists who gave me different advices. I finally changed my gender and now live as female accepted and respected in society. My question is, how does Islam see this and have I done bad by what I have done?

Answer:

`Alaykum Salam,
You were not in the wrong body then and you are not in the wrong body now. According to Shari`a now you are a woman so do your best to be a good person and build up your eternal spiritual life without too much emphasis on the mortal body.

Hajj Gibril Haddad

:wa: (Peace be upon you)
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Search
09-25-2016, 02:33 AM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

I also found another fatwa (ruling) that is really in favor of treating you as you are and actually accepting of you as you self-identify:

About Hard Situation: Transexual

Posted on June 15, 2012 by Shaykh Gibril Fouad Haddad

Question:

I have a long talk with a woman about Islam. She made ​​the shahada, and after a while told me that once she changed her sex, so then came the head. She was once a man and is now is a “woman”. Should she live as a woman or a man from now on? I remember that within the Shari’a cosmetic surgery should not be done and when it does the shahada is clean of all their sins, if by this reasoning would she be a woman? Can she marry a man? I need this answer as she prays with women here.
Barakaallahu Fik

Answer:

If physical characteristics and self-identity (how a person identifies
themselves) are mostly feminine then the person is a woman.

Hajj Gibril Haddad

:wa: (Peace be upon you)
Reply

Serinity
09-25-2016, 02:45 AM
If u still are female, then know that changing gender is a major sin afaik.

It comes under the heading of changing the creation of Allah - outwardly but not truly.

And Allah :swt: knows best.
Reply

AnnaK
09-25-2016, 02:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
If u still are female, then know that changing gender is a major sin afaik.

It comes under the heading of changing the creation of Allah - outwardly but not truly.

And Allah :swt: knows best.
He created my mind and body the way He chose to, and my mind says that I am a woman. Under no part of the Quran did it ever talk about going against societal norms as a sin.

If I denied the fact that I was trans, I would be going against my mind that Allah created. That would be changing Allah's creation of me, and that would be a sin.
Reply

Serinity
09-25-2016, 03:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
He created my mind and body the way He chose to, and my mind says that I am a woman. Under no part of the Quran did it ever talk about going against societal norms as a sin.

If I denied the fact that I was trans, I would be going against my mind that Allah created. That would be changing Allah's creation of me, and that would be a sin.
That I don't know. Not sure.

A scholar can answer.


my input: however u were created - that is how u were created. So no, I disagree with you. Changing gender no matter what one "thinks or feels" is a major sin.

U are only justifying your state - deal with it.
Reply

AnnaK
09-25-2016, 03:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
That I don't know. Not sure.

A scholar can answer.


my input: however u were created - that is how u were created. So no, I disagree with you. Changing gender no matter what one "thinks or feels" is a major sin.
I identify the way I do, but I ask, what have I changed? My body is the same; I have not changed my genitalia. So now society views me one way instead of another, but what have I changed other than the way other humans precieve me? How have I changed Allah's creation? People can change from clothing filled with holes to elegant clothing, and the only thing that would change is the way society views them. So how, would the changing of which clothes I wear and what I identify myself as change Allah's creation? I can see how it changes societal norms, but not Allah's creation.
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kritikvernunft
09-25-2016, 06:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
et if you do this, you have to reconcile with the fact that Iran, a country with Islam as the national religion, conducts the second most amount of sex reassignment surgeries out of all known countries, mainly because they see it as a cure for being gay.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran

As of 2008, Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except for Thailand. The government provides up to half the cost for those needing financial assistance, and a sex change is recognised on the birth certificate.
In 1963, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini wrote a book in which he stated that there was no religious restriction on corrective surgery for intersex individuals, though this did not apply to those without physical ambiguity in sex organs. One early campaigner for transsexual rights was Maryam Hatoon Molkara. Khomeini, however, did give her a letter to authorize her sex reassignment operation, which she later did in 1997. Khomeini's original fatwa has since been reconfirmed by the current leader of Iran, Ali Khamenei, and is also supported by many other Iranian clerics. Once a transsexual individual has undergone sex reassignment, that person legally becomes the new sex. All legal documents, such as birth certificates and passports, are also changed accordingly. Those who wish to remain "non-operative" (as well as those who cross-dress and/or identify as genderqueer) are considered their biological gender, and as such [...] subject to the same laws barring homosexual acts.

This is a hard problem for the ulema to seek consensus about. This is clearly a lesser-evil problem, but only if not everybody tries to get operated, because this procedure also obliterates their ability to have offspring. In that sense, male-to-female operations are less of a problem than female-to-male. It could spare such persons from getting punished harshly for committing homosexual acts. Physically stamping out the possibility of homosexual acts is not a bad idea, since Divine Law strictly forbids that kind of behaviour. There is also the idea that such persons would not unnecessarily mention the fact that they have been operated on, be discrete about it in order not to offend unnecessarily, and that all official documents mentioning this person's gender must be altered, with older documents simply destroyed. To the extent that this approach could help putting an otherwise annoying problem to rest, and if investigations by Sunni ulema also declares it permissible, it could possibly be a solution.
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kritikvernunft
09-25-2016, 06:56 AM
The problem does not seem to be new:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhannathun
Mukhannathun (مخنثون "effeminate ones", "men who resemble women", singular mukhannath) is classical Arabic for men who have been castrated, perhaps poorly distinguished from eunuchs. At one point in time during the Umayyad Caliphate, a caliph, usually identified as Sulayman ibn Abd al-Malik, reportedly ordered that all Mukhannathun should be castrated.

Another problem, the operation must apparently be carried out by non-Muslims on non-Muslim territory:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaver...Ottoman_Empire
While Islamic law forbade the emasculation of a man, Ethiopian Christians had no such compunctions; thus, they enslaved and emasculated members of territories to the south and sold the resulting eunuchs to the Ottoman Porte.[25][26] The Coptic Orthodox Church participated extensively in the slave trade of eunuchs.

Apparently, they could also find employment as security guards for women, as a substitute for a mahram.
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eesa the kiwi
09-25-2016, 08:40 AM
Why are you guys sugar coating Islam

Praise be to Allaah.
Islam forbids men to imitate women and women to imitate men, and in fact it emphatically forbids that, to such an extent that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed those who go against the human nature with which Allaah created them.

It was narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed men who imitate women and women who imitate men, and he said: “Throw them out of your houses.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (5885).

Undoubtedly one of the most obvious signs of an effeminate man is that he wears women’s clothing and imitates their ways.

It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed the man who wears women’s clothing and the woman who wears men’s clothing. Narrated by Abu Dawood (4098) and classed as saheeh by al-Nawawi in al-Majmoo’ (4/469) and by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed masculinized women. Narrated by Abu Dawood (4099); classed as hasan by al-Nawawi in al-Majmoo’ (4/469) and as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

Al-Mannaawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

As al-Nawawi said, this indicates that it is haraam for men to imitate women and vice versa, because if it is haraam with regard to clothing then imitating them in one’s movements and tone of voice is even more abhorrent. So it is haraam for men to imitate women and vice versa with regard to clothing that is unique to one sex, and the one who does that is subject to the threat of being cursed. End quote.

Fayd al-Qadeer (5/343).

Once this is established, we will know that the Islamic ruling on this kind of sexual perversion is that it is haraam, and it is a major sin. So it is not permissible to do that whether alone or with one’s wife, because going against the sound human nature (fitrah) that Allaah has created in us can only result in corruption and evil. Allaah has created man with masculine qualities that cannot go with wearing women’s clothing or imitating women’s mannerisms.

Undoubtedly the one who seeks to be effeminate and derives pleasure from that and thinks that it fulfils his desire is sick with a disease that the doctors describe as a “fetish”. They have behavioural programs to treat such cases that are presented to them, so anyone who is faced with this problem should not hesitate to go to a psychologist to supervise his treatment for this sickness.

All we can do is remind him of Allaah and make his religious commitment a positive and effective factor in ridding him of this waswaas. He should remember the wrath of Allaah towards effeminate men, and he should remember that He can see everything they do, and that this life is a few short days that will quickly cease to be, and a man will be left with his deeds in the Hereafter.

We remind him to seek the help of Allaah, for He is the best of helpers and the best One to ask for help. If a person is sincere in his du’aa’ and seeking help and turning to Him, Allaah will answer his prayer and relieve him of his problem. But part of praying sincerely is sincerely applying the means and striving hard and being patient until full healing comes and he gives up these evil haraam practices. And for his efforts and patience he will be rewarded by Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted.
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sister herb
09-25-2016, 09:09 AM
Others seem already answered to your question but I would like to notice this:

format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
Iran, a country with Islam as the national religion
I wish you wouldn´t use Iran as a good example as it is not "an Islamic state" as we (Sunna) Muslims understand it. They are shias and it´s not same at all as "with Islam as the national religion". If you look closer their version about religion, you will find out that they have many interpretations which haven´t much to do of Islam (and some are nothing less than against Islam). I would like to advice you to looking for your examples from some real Islamic countries.
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noraina
09-25-2016, 09:15 AM
Allahu a'lam,

A scholar's opinion would be good inshaAllah, I have heard that it varies on circumstance whether it is sinful or not. I have read that an actual physical condition has to be present for it to be a valid excuse, but if it is just because a man 'feels' effeminate when he is physically fine, then that would be sinful. Hope I'm not opening a can of worms here, lol.

And Allah swt knows best.
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sister herb
09-25-2016, 10:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
He created my mind and body the way He chose to, and my mind says that I am a woman. Under no part of the Quran did it ever talk about going against societal norms as a sin.

If I denied the fact that I was trans, I would be going against my mind that Allah created. That would be changing Allah's creation of me, and that would be a sin.
So, if I understood it right, He created your body as a male but your mind says you are a female?

We should to be very careful about what our minds say. Sometimes it might not be real but a whisper from the Shaytan. For example, some people claim as well that their mind says they are born to be as gays and then can´t accept that it´s not compatible with what the religion says.

I do understand what transgender means as I know some sisters whose have same problem as they feel they have born to the wrong gender as well. In society it causes problems to both them and to others. Even if they feel they are males, they still have to avoid too close contacts to males etc.
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kritikvernunft
09-25-2016, 11:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noraina
Allahu a'lam, A scholar's opinion would be good inshaAllah, I have heard that it varies on circumstance whether it is sinful or not. I have read that an actual physical condition has to be present for it to be a valid excuse, but if it is just because a man 'feels' effeminate when he is physically fine, then that would be sinful. Hope I'm not opening a can of worms here, lol. And Allah swt knows best.
Allahu a'lam,

In the Turkish Empire, most of the eunuchs are furnished by the monastery called Abou-Gerbè in upper Egypt, where the Coptic priests castrate ... to the Turkish market.
Journal of the American Medical Association, Volume 30, Issues 1-13, 1898

The testimony suggests that this kind of surgery is indeed impermissible for Muslim surgeons. If it were also impermissible for Coptic priests, wouldn't the Ottoman Sultan-Khalif simply have forbidden the trade altogether? If a man feels too effeminate to stay one, it could be an idea to resuscitate the medical facilities in Abou-Gerbè in upper Egypt, and to let him travel there.
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Serinity
09-25-2016, 11:50 AM
It is clear to anyone who think that changing gender is a major sin. Who cares what one's mind says.

Allah created my mind, my mind is a creation of Allah.

my mind says "go and kill that chidl!" should I go and kill that child?! aye! I should kill that child, cuz my mind says sooooooo, if I don't kill that child, I am "Changing the creation of Allah" cuz my mind - a creation of Allah - says to kill a child!

This is fallacious reasoning, and just a justification. Imo.

Just because you "feel" or "think" does not make it right. In the end it is a major sin, no matter how you look at it. It is prob shaytaan trying to decieve you. Remember, Iblees promised Allah to have mankind change the creation of Allah.

Imagine a society with trangenders - male who effimenated themselves, females who made themselves behave like males - total chaos!

No, you have not been born into the wrong body, that is just Shaytaan messing with you. Allah never makes mistakes. To suggest that Allah made a mistake by choosing the wrong gender, is kufr.
Allahu alam.
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M.I.A.
09-25-2016, 01:24 PM
...complicated..

I suppose if manly men have to restrain themselves for the sake of religion..

and adhere to the various rules of conduct and desire.

then unmanly men should also have to abide.

..as is said on some places of the Internet.

the men are men.

the women are men.

and the children are the FBI.


it's a joke but only just..

points to the masturbation threads.


the rules should protect those that are actually truly transgenered..

not by there own desire..

the minority of the minority.
Reply

Born_Believer
09-25-2016, 01:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
Why do so many Muslims condemn trans people? Let me explain a little bit.

The Quran talles about the two sexes, male and female. Sex, as contrary to many believe, have nothing to do with gender. Gender is a social construct that gives us a means to identify ourselves (whether we identify as man, woman, non-binary, gender nonconforming, agender, bigender, trigender, pangender, demigemder, amd all the other identities).

Sex on the other hand refers to genitalia and gonads: meaning a penis, testes, vulva, ovaries. Now I have to ask the question of, why does it matter if your gender identity "aligns" with your sex? Why does it matter what gender someone identifies as?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Quran repeatedly talks about two sexes, but NOT about gender. From this you can take a stance that it doesn't matter about identity, so long as you don't change your genitalia. Yet if you do this, you have to reconcile with the fact that Iran, a country with Islam as the national religion, conducts the second most amount of sex reassignment surgeries out of all known countries (mainly because they see it as a cure for being gay).

This all brings me back to my original question of why do so many Muslims condemn gender minorities? Is there some part of the Holy Quran that talks about gender identities that I missed?

I support gender minorities, and I can't quite understand why others don't. Hope the rant wasn't too long for some of you.
Separation of gender and sex is a modern, linguistic creation, one designed to trick you and confuse you. The bottom line is this, forget religion for a second and forget your own personal likes and dislikes:

Ones sex is determined by their genetic make up. A woman has 2 x chromosomes and a man has XY chromosomes. That leads to the formation of sexual organs and physical traits, abilities, strengths and weaknesses.

In trying to go down the secular route that ones gender can somehow be different to ones sex, you are going against the very biological basis of your body. Aer you then trying to say that your genetic make up is a mistake or a disorder? That, of course, is not true. There are disorders related to sexual organs but they often lead to other physical traits and in many cases, infertility and are due to actual genetic mutations (extra X chromosomes in males for instance). People such as this are often incompatible with life (fetuses are naturally aborted via miscarriages or they have great physical and psychological issues if they are born and go onto survive till adulthood). In most cases, life span is affected.

If you are saying they are not the former (normal genetic make up) nor are they the latter (suffering from genetic disorders), then what are they?

Those of us in the medical field all know that gender dysphoria is a psychological illness, sadly, those of us in the western world have been told not to treat it. In fact it has become illegal and can cause doctors to be struck off the medical register. So, most people, especially those who don't really have a great, all encompassing moral outlook, are willing to go along with it as long as they can keep their jobs.

Dr Paul R. McHugh, one of the foremost minds in psychiatry has undergone a deeply politicised hate campaign because his medical opinion remains that gender dysphoria is indeed an illness. The powers that be, who want to sell you this idea, against all science and logic, that a man who believes in himself as a woman or vice verse is ok, have tried for years to discredit such doctors/professors/academics. Dr McHighs is in fact the author of 7 books and over 150 peer reviewed articles on psychiatry yet we're supposed to believe a bunch politicians on this matter?
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AnnaK
09-25-2016, 05:44 PM
[QUOTE=Born_Believer;
Dr Paul R. McHugh, one of the foremost minds in psychiatry has undergone a deeply politicised hate campaign because his medical opinion remains that gender dysphoria is indeed an illness. The powers that be, who want to sell you this idea, against all science and logic, that a man who believes in himself as a woman or vice verse is ok, have tried for years to discredit such doctors/professors/academics. Dr McHighs is in fact the author of 7 books and over 150 peer reviewed articles on psychiatry yet we're supposed to believe a bunch politicians on this matter?[/QUOTE]

Do you know how many Doctors I've met that believe in the exact opposite? Medical school isn't a flash in a pan; it takes a lot of work and dedication to become doctor. I personally through conferences and outreach have met hundreds of people who will treat transgender people as people rather than wild things with psychotic diseases.

Riddle me this: what separates men and women from a cultural perspective? Jobs? A woman could hold any job a man can. Status? Women can have the same status as men. Clothes? Is that the issue everyone gets tangled up on? What truly is the difference between man and woman from a cultural perspective?

Being transgender has nothing to do with changing biology; it has to do with changing the way cultural and society views us.
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kritikvernunft
09-25-2016, 06:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
Being transgender has nothing to do with changing biology; it has to do with changing the way cultural and society views us.
The status of sex-change operations in Divine Law, looks a bit ambiguous:

The Ottoman court harem—within the Topkapı Palace (1465–1853) and later the Dolmabahçe Palace (1853–1909) in Istanbul—was under the administration of the eunuchs.

If the Ottoman Sultan-Khalif himself did not see any problem in employing sex-changed men as security guards for his palace, he must obviously not have found it a particularly haraam practice. Furthermore, everybody must have known about it. It could impossibly have been a secret. I could also not find any historical reference to Ottoman mufti or ulema decrying this practice as impermissible. Jews and Christians were clearly allowed to do it, and it was clearly allowed to employ them. I would understand that the Sunni ulema would prefer to disapprove of the practice. There is certainly no obligation to approve of it. Vehemently repudiating the position of the Iranian clergy, however, looks like a stretch. Their point of view is not completely out of the blue ...
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Serinity
09-25-2016, 06:36 PM
my stance on this issue is that it is a major sin to change gender.

Imagine what chaos there'd be with people freely changing gender. Just not nice, and disgusting.............
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AnnaK
09-25-2016, 06:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
Imagine what chaos there'd be with people freely changing gender. Just not nice, and disgusting.............
Gender dysphoria only affects 1 in every 1000 people, so no, it wouldn't errupt any chaos in the world. I bet wherever you live has transgender people hiding that fact of being transgender, and it isn't causing chaos in the world now.
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Serinity
09-25-2016, 06:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
Gender dysphoria only affects 1 in every 1000 people, so no, it wouldn't errupt any chaos in the world. I bet wherever you live has transgender people hiding that fact of being transgender, and it isn't causing chaos in the world now.
Alhamdulillah, it is not many.

People should treat it as an illness.
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M.I.A.
09-25-2016, 06:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
Do you know how many Doctors I've met that believe in the exact opposite? Medical school isn't a flash in a pan; it takes a lot of work and dedication to become doctor. I personally through conferences and outreach have met hundreds of people who will treat transgender people as people rather than wild things with psychotic diseases.

Riddle me this: what separates men and women from a cultural perspective? Jobs? A woman could hold any job a man can. Status? Women can have the same status as men. Clothes? Is that the issue everyone gets tangled up on? What truly is the difference between man and woman from a cultural perspective?

Being transgender has nothing to do with changing biology; it has to do with changing the way cultural and society views us.
you seem to have jumped to a parallel..

women have often been discriminated against in western society.

in the workplace, within politics..probably a few other places also..

it has nothing to do with religion.

its perspective..

for instance if a women is chauffeured around and has a male minder within the western world..

her status is beyond reproach.. your instincts tell you money or fame.

...and yet those two same characteristics within the eastern world are considered a deprivation of rights.

and maybe they are.

but why do western women need to be chauffeured and minded then?

..from a cultural perspective..

all those deprivations of privilege you associate with islam are to protect womens honour.. or wealth.. from people who have none for themselves.

it can be abused..


recently women have even left work or persued other avenues.. in the western world..

because there bosses have asked them to dress more provocatively..

poor women.

at least they are not complaining about being paid less than their piers.


*men have rights over women..and women over men..

it is a natural state.

although maintaining the state is hard work at times.


personal freedoms are often compromised..

looking after the house.

looking after the children.

looking after parents.

...all things which require maintaining.

from another thread:

format_quote Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Source


WOMAN MET WITH OWNER ABOUT "MUSLIMS GET OUT" SIGN

Sunday, September 25, 2016 07:38AM

ROCHESTER, MN (KTRK) --

Earlier this week, there was a sign outside of a Lonsdale, MN restaurant that read, "Muslims get out."

The owner of the restaurant says he put the sign out to show support for victims of the St. Cloud mall stabbing, where a Muslim man injured several people. The sign has received both negative and positive feedback.

One thing is for sure, it captured the attention of Regina Mustafa, a Muslim woman who founded the Community Interfaith Dialogue on Islam in Rochester and does a lot of interfaith work around the state.

Regina decided to make a trip to Lonsdale in the hopes of meeting face-to-face with the owner. She took to Facebook Live to document her feelings, saying she was nervous but knew it was something she had to do.

"What was shocking was when we got there, we realized the sign was different than the image we had seen on the internet because now it said, "Muslims get out of the USA," she says. "So not just his restaurant, now he wants them all out of the entire country."

With a bouquet of flowers and card in-hand, Regina entered the restaurant alone and quietly asked to talk to the owner.

"The last thing I wanted to do was disturb his business, or be disrespectful to the people, or cause a scene, I just wanted to talk to him," she says.

When she did, she noted that both the owner and his wife were polite, kind, and despite it being a busy night, they gave her a few minutes to talk about the sign. She says he told her the sign is referring to "extremists" and not all Muslims.

"I said to him, "don't you think it's just better to take down the sign than to keep it up when it apparently doesn't reflect what you really mean." I pleaded to him, I said "I'm a mother, I have two young children and what would it do if my son were to see that sign?" And he said, "oh you and your family are welcomed here any time.""

Regina says she is glad that she went, even if the sign will not be changed.

...and thats why muslim men need women minders.

and why im a middle aged man under curfew.
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Born_Believer
09-25-2016, 09:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
Do you know how many Doctors I've met that believe in the exact opposite? Medical school isn't a flash in a pan; it takes a lot of work and dedication to become doctor. I personally through conferences and outreach have met hundreds of people who will treat transgender people as people rather than wild things with psychotic diseases.

Riddle me this: what separates men and women from a cultural perspective? Jobs? A woman could hold any job a man can. Status? Women can have the same status as men. Clothes? Is that the issue everyone gets tangled up on? What truly is the difference between man and woman from a cultural perspective?

Being transgender has nothing to do with changing biology; it has to do with changing the way cultural and society views us.
I know, I said that in my statement but no one who looks at the science objectively (as you can tell from my post I didn't even mention my personal opinion or Islam in this) can honestly, with a clear conscience say it is a natural occurrence. Now, of course, those who do not hold any serious values within the medical community, will go along with whatever line the politicians tell them are best. For example, I know of doctors who work in the disability allowance side of things and go along with putting disabled individuals into work, even when they are severely troubled, because there is a crackdown by the current conservative government on benefits and the poor in general. So, doctors who stand for nothing, or people in general, will fall for anything.

Where did you find that I expect transgender people to be "wild things"? It's an illness/disease and like any illness or disease, it is our job, as medical professionals AND society as a whole to treat these people with sympathy, to care for them and to guide them correctly. Just because it's a disease doesn't make the people some kind of lesser humans. We should treat them similarly to other mental illnesses. Compassion is a major part of that but it must come through medical understanding.

Keeping on the medical theme, did you know there was research carried out by two institutions, one in the UK and the other in the US, which found that 80% of children who had thoughts of being different to their physical make up, i.e. a boy who thought he was really a girl, for instance, had that issue spontaneously resolved? That means, without intervention from people who encouraged them towards a certain psychology, the child out grew this phase, very much like many children who go through issues of imaginary friends or sucking their thumbs. The institutions were: Vanderbilt University and London’s Portman Clinic of children.

I could go on and on about the science of the issue but I won't because I feel it won't get through to you. What I hope will get through to you is the faith and knowledge of Islam. We have been told by our Prophet Muhammad PBUH that it is HARAM for men to dress like women and vice verse, along with other such wisdom. It is for this exact reason, to avoid creating societies which facilitate and encourage such thoughts which become irrational actions. You say you have met many people with such issues, maybe you are one yourself, fair enough. Then you know, even better than me, that each one of these people does not exist in a transgender bubble, they have arrived here due to abuse, physical or sexual and ultimately, serious depression.

I hope you read this all the way through and take some time ponder on the information. May Allah guide you.
Reply

Huzaifah ibn Adam
09-25-2016, 10:09 PM
There are no accidents.

Allaah Ta`aalaa created you as a male, with the body of a male, and that was no accident. You think that your mind is telling you otherwise? That is Shaytaan putting it into your mind, because he wants to change what Allaah Ta`aalaa has created. "Taghyeeru Khalqillaah" (Changing the creation of Allaah) is from the Kabaa'ir (major sins). Even if a male goes for a sex-change operation, he will never become a woman. He will be resurrected on the Day of Qiyaamah once again as a male, with a male's body, with male genitalia, uncircumcised on top of that. There's no getting away from it. Whatever Allaah Ta`aalaa has created a person as, they will Always be.

Allaah Ta`aalaa says:

إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَغْفِرُ أَنْ يُشْرَكَ بِهِ وَيَغْفِرُ مَا دُونَ ذَلِكَ لِمَنْ يَشَاءُ وَمَنْ يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا (116) إِنْ يَدْعُونَ مِنْ دُونِهِ إِلَّا إِنَاثًا وَإِنْ يَدْعُونَ إِلَّا شَيْطَانًا مَرِيدًا (117) لَعَنَهُ اللَّهُ وَقَالَ لَأَتَّخِذَنَّ مِنْ عِبَادِكَ نَصِيبًا مَفْرُوضًا (118) وَلَأُضِلَّنَّهُمْ وَلَأُمَنِّيَنَّهُمْ وَلَآمُرَنَّهُمْ فَلَيُبَتِّكُنَّ آذَانَ الْأَنْعَامِ وَلَآمُرَنَّهُمْ فَلَيُغَيِّرُنَّ خَلْقَ اللَّهِ وَمَنْ يَتَّخِذِ الشَّيْطَانَ وَلِيًّا مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ فَقَدْ خَسِرَ خُسْرَانًا مُبِينًا (119) يَعِدُهُمْ وَيُمَنِّيهِمْ وَمَا يَعِدُهُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ إِلَّا غُرُورًا (120) أُولَئِكَ مَأْوَاهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ وَلَا يَجِدُونَ عَنْهَا مَحِيصًا (121)


"Indeed, Allaah does not forgive (the sin of) ascribing partners unto Him (Shirk), but He forgives other than that for whomsoever He wills. And, whosoever ascribes partners unto Allaah has indeed deviated very far (from the straight path). They (the Mushrikeen who call on others besides Allaah) do not call, besides Him, on anything besides female (false-gods), and they do not call upon anything except a rebellious Shaytaan (i.e. Iblees). Allaah cursed him, and he (Shaytaan) said, "I will take (i.e. lead astray) an appointed portion of Your slaves. I will mislead them; I will put in them false desires; I will order them, and they will slit the ears of cattle; I will order them, and they will change the creation of Allaah. And whosoever takes Shaytaan as a Wali (friend; helper; protector) instead of Allaah, then he has indeed suffered a manifest loss. He (Shaytaan) promises them and puts false desires in them, but whatever he promises them is nothing but deception. They (Shaytaan and those who obey him), their abode is Jahannam, and they will not find any escape from it." [Soorah an-Nisaa, 4:116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121]
Reply

Aaqib
09-25-2016, 11:31 PM
Such a disgusting thing to do. No hate, but I don't think a man to a woman is permissible in Islam. You were created as a man, you're a man. No mistakes.
Reply

Search
09-26-2016, 03:14 AM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

Dear AnnaK:

I have nothing but best wishes for you, but I also note that we must as Muslims give you beneficial advice that is also nothing less than the absolute truth. Again, I stress I do not know what the answer is as I'm not qualified to give an expert opinion. Yet I also note that Islamic scholars would, if you haven't had gender reassignment surgery, probably ask even in the favorable fatwas (rulings) that I'd earlier provided and to which I'd linked you probably advise you to remain the sex which you were born. Having gender reassignment surgery would probably be inadvisable if you're still inclined towards the procedure but you'd remain a Muslim if you did obtain that procedure; your self-identification as a woman needs the benefit of you having had reassignment surgery in the before you're also identified as a woman in Islamic juristic understanding. I don't know what to advise you. I only know that any struggle against the self is hard, but perhaps that is why it is infinitely praiseworthy and rewarding in the eyes of God.

Perhaps it is immodest to discuss here, and I probably would not save for the thought that I might benefit you in contextualizing this discussion in broader terms of struggling against the self that is known as jihad. As a woman, I have sexual desires; yet Islam proscribes engaging in any physical relationship before marriage. I'm unmarried, and I'm young, and I'm (from what people have always told me) attractive. Sometimes, my desires are strong yet I have to keep calm and remember that Allah is seeing me and that I cannot make what is haram (forbidden) halal (permissible) and pursue premarital intercourse. It is a struggle. And I'm struggling against myself. I'm not holy; I'm a human being. I've previously talked to men in the context of marital prospects, but things more than once didn't work out in the end even though things seemed initially very promising. Sometimes, in my lowest moments, I've wondered if I'm destined to get married. I've wondered what would happen if I never got married - would I want to engage in premarital intercourse then? For a brief time in which I was wrestling with my desires very strongly especially after a specific disappointment with a man with whom I'd really thought I'd get married, I thought maybe yes because my iman (faith) had hit an all-time low and I'd felt crushed and couldn't understand the purpose of this self-inflicted self-immolation. But then I reflected on all the things that had beautifully instilled in me the love of Islam and to choose Islam for myself when I'd been an atheist; and I then understood that the answer must be no always (as to premarital intercourse). I'm not holy as I well know; but I also know that I'm stronger than I think and braver than I believe; I must choose to be either a servant of God or give into the idea of being a servant to my desires; I choose and chose God. I love Allah; and I know now (though I'd briefly become unsure if I could keep on this struggle with myself at my low point of iman (faith)) that even if I never married and had to remain chaste for the rest of my life, I'd be happy to make this sacrifice because I love Allah and the religion of Islam more than my next breath or the relief of drinking cold water on a hot day.

There's something that too must have brought you to accept Islam; think on the matter, AnnaK, when you're feeling less strong and less brave and less happy about things. I know you can do it, just as many people struggling differently and in different ways have done and continue to do; and I'm with you in any capacity as a friend and supportive sister in your journey. This life is not paradise, AnnaK, but it is the best chance we have to get it right for ourselves to attain the beatific vision of God in the Highest Paradise.


And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me. (51:56.)

In the spirit of this truth, I have been for quite some time now been engaged in loving acts of kindness to myself and pursuing the journey of self-discovery and contentment as a means of worship. I've learned to see life as a complete gift and opportunity to rekindle a love affair with all my other dreams since I've stopped trying to make things somehow fit and instead live in the moment; to be honest, if we look deep within ourselves, we'll see that all that which feels like a "need" is ultimately about trying to find divinely inspired contentment in places other than our own hearts and deepest delving into our souls.


Wishing you the best in life, and all goodness,


:wa: (And peace be upon you)


format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
[...]
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kritikvernunft
09-26-2016, 04:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaqib
Such a disgusting thing to do. No hate, but I don't think a man to a woman is permissible in Islam. You were created as a man, you're a man. No mistakes.
For a man, it requires willpower and determination to act like a man, to try to establish himself, find resources, and then go through a legitimate procedure to find a wife to marry and have children with. Without motivation, it will just not happen. As a man, you must really want and desire this. The man's sexual urges will also keep prodding him to do what it takes, so that he can finally get what he wants. Transgender men do not have that motivation, or not even the urge to prod them. Therefore, they will not do it anyway. In that sense, whether they have an operation or not, it will not make any difference. For women, it is different. They can just be commanded to stick to their roles. There is no need for any kind of willpower or motivation for a woman to be one, to marry, and to have children. That is why I personally reject the idea of a woman seeking to have herself operated to become a man. Furthermore, I do not believe that anybody thinks that the Ayatollah Khomeini was a wimp. On the contrary, he was redoubtable. He would fight for what he believed in, and irrevocably impose his views. His enemies actually respected him. In my opinion, he certainly had credibility. If the Ayatollah Khomeini decided to let go of the issue, I am personally also ok with that.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
09-26-2016, 10:07 AM
We must mention this as well, because it was brought up in this thread:

Iran is a Kaafir state, not an Islaamic state. The Akaabireen `Ulamaa have stated that Shi`as are Kuffaar for the following reasons:

1) They do not accept the Qur'aan. They say it was altered.

2) They elevate their 12 Imaams to a level of "Godhood". They claim that Allaah Ta`aalaa created the 12 Imaams and that these 12 Imaams then created the rest of the creation, such as the human beings, Jinn, Malaa'ikah, animals, etc.

3) Some of them feel that Jibreel عليه السلام made a mistake by bringing the Wahi to Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم and that he should have brought it to Hadhrat `Ali رضي الله عنه instead.

4) They regard all of the Sahaabah - besides a handful of them - as being Kuffaar. They make mass Takfeer of the Sahaabah. They feel that the Sahaabah all - wal-`Iyaadhu Billaah - became Murtaddeen after Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم, except a few of them.

5) They accuse Hadhrat `Aa'ishah رضي الله عنها of having committed a Faahishah (shameless, immoral act), wa-Na`oodhu Billaahi min Dhaalik.

6) They curse Hadhrat Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه and Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه.

7) They regard Ahlus Sunnah wal-Jamaa`ah as being Kaafirs.

8) They make Du`aa to their Imaams, calling upon them instead of Allaah Ta`aalaa.

These are some of the beliefs of the Ithnaa `Ashariyyah Shi`as (12 Imaam-ers). The Kaafir state of Iran follows the Ithnaa `Ashari religion, which is completely opposite to the Deen of Islaam.

Islaam is based on Tawheed. Shi'ism is based on Shirk. The two are polar opposites.

Also, I encourage the brothers and sisters here to do some reading on who Khomeini was. Khomeini was a pervert and a paedophile. He used to visit the houses of his worshippers from the Shi`a cult, and find out if they have any baby girls (newborn till 2-3 years old). If they did, he would sleep with them, by doing what they term "Tafkheedh". Tafkheedh is that the man (Shi`a) squeezes his penis between the thighs (Fakhdh, in Arabic) of the baby girl, and does his business there until he ejaculates. This is known as "Tafkheedh", and is something Khomeini used to practice habitually. He was well-known for it. He himself was the one who declared it to be permissible, and so the Shi`as do that.

Once again: The Shi`a cult is a satanic, Kaafir cult that has nothing to do with Islaam.

والسلام
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Karl
09-27-2016, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
The problem does not seem to be new:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukhannathun
Mukhannathun (مخنثون "effeminate ones", "men who resemble women", singular mukhannath) is classical Arabic for men who have been castrated, perhaps poorly distinguished from eunuchs. At one point in time during the Umayyad Caliphate, a caliph, usually identified as Sulayman ibn Abd al-Malik, reportedly ordered that all Mukhannathun should be castrated.

Another problem, the operation must apparently be carried out by non-Muslims on non-Muslim territory:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaver...Ottoman_Empire
While Islamic law forbade the emasculation of a man, Ethiopian Christians had no such compunctions; thus, they enslaved and emasculated members of territories to the south and sold the resulting eunuchs to the Ottoman Porte.[25][26] The Coptic Orthodox Church participated extensively in the slave trade of eunuchs.

Apparently, they could also find employment as security guards for women, as a substitute for a mahram.
So does the Arabic Mukhannathun refer specifically to effeminate men or does it refer to all effeminate males including prepubescents? If it refers specifically to men then what is the specific Arabic term for effeminate males?
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Karl
09-27-2016, 12:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
Islam forbids men to imitate women and women to imitate men, and in fact it emphatically forbids that, to such an extent that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed those who go against the human nature with which Allaah created them.

It was narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed men who imitate women and women who imitate men, and he said: “Throw them out of your houses.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (5885).
This is true. I do find it curious though how many people here seem to be confining this whole discussion to effeminate men rather than effeminate males. Is this merely an oversight or mistranslation, or is it instead an attempt not to offend the politically correct "adults only" kuffar? In Arabic did the prophet (pbuh) specifically curse men who imitate women or did he curse males who imitated females? There is a big difference in meaning between one and the other.

Also there are two types of effeminate male. The first type looks morphologically male, but merely acts and dresses like a female, often feigning female voice, and basically comes across as ludicrous. I think probably these are the particular type of male the prophet (pbuh) was referring to. There is however ANOTHER kind of effeminate male. These ones actually look morphologically feminine just like females and most heterosexual males would find them extremely attractive. They are so soft featured that one could easily mistake them for an actual female. This type isn't really a male gone wrong though, but are instead females gone wrong. This is because they look like females all the way from head to toe EXCEPT that they have been accidentally born with male genitalia. This particular type would look utterly ridiculous if they attempted to act macho because most people would think "Why is that female acting and dressing like a male??" I could be wrong but I very much doubt that the prophet (pbuh) would have felt shunning of these women and girls accidentally born with penises.
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crookedrib
09-27-2016, 02:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
Being transgender has nothing to do with changing biology; it has to do with changing the way cultural and society views us.
Did you not read brother eesa's post? Allaah CURSES the one who imitates the opposite gender. Khalas. Nothing else needs to be said.
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kritikvernunft
09-27-2016, 03:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by crookedrib
Did you not read brother eesa's post? Allaah CURSES the one who imitates the opposite gender. Khalas. Nothing else needs to be said.
Someone in that situation will most likely try to avoid getting married to a woman, but imagine that he can also not manage to avoid that? It will not take long before our sister understands that he cannot possibly desire her. Frustrations will go through the roof. All of this will soon become unmanageable, and inevitably end up before the Qadi. So, in order to spare our sisters from ending up in the middle of that kind of nightmares, it is clearly preferable that he does not marry one. Since he will not marry anyway, he can make himself useful by becoming some kind of security guard for the protection of ladies. There will always be someone happy to appoint him to the job of Kapı Ağası, Chief of the Doors for the Ladies.
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eesa the kiwi
09-27-2016, 05:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
This is true. I do find it curious though how many people here seem to be confining this whole discussion to effeminate men rather than effeminate males. Is this merely an oversight or mistranslation, or is it instead an attempt not to offend the politically correct "adults only" kuffar? In Arabic did the prophet (pbuh) specifically curse men who imitate women or did he curse males who imitated females? There is a big difference in meaning between one and the other.

Also there are two types of effeminate male. The first type looks morphologically male, but merely acts and dresses like a female, often feigning female voice, and basically comes across as ludicrous. I think probably these are the particular type of male the prophet (pbuh) was referring to. There is however ANOTHER kind of effeminate male. These ones actually look morphologically feminine just like females and most heterosexual males would find them extremely attractive. They are so soft featured that one could easily mistake them for an actual female. This type isn't really a male gone wrong though, but are instead females gone wrong. This is because they look like females all the way from head to toe EXCEPT that they have been accidentally born with male genitalia. This particular type would look utterly ridiculous if they attempted to act macho because most people would think "Why is that female acting and dressing like a male??" I could be wrong but I very much doubt that the prophet (pbuh) would have felt shunning of these women and girls accidentally born with penises.
Let me get this straight, there is no accident when it comes to gender, Allah decreed for everyone to be the gender they are
if someone is created as a male but has urges to dress and act womanly then this is peversion from the shaitaan, this is corruption that has happened to the soul
as for medical conditions id rather not speak on them as i do not have the knowledge

i dont know why so many people are being politically correct on this thread either, Islam strongly condemns men who dress up as women, Islam is submission to the will of Allah not submission to perverted desires
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
09-27-2016, 06:18 AM
It's because people these days have become "Muslims for the sake of the Kuffaar". Not for the sake of Allaah anymore. Nowadays, people want to make Islaam subservient to the Kuffaar and their satanic desires. They make their whole religion about pleasing a Kaafir. As if a Muslim owes a Kaafir anything. They would gladly lick the backsides of the Kuffaar. Free-of-charge, too.

Spineless, neutered, emasculated...

Abz used to always have that quote in his signature: "Long ago has hope perished, as have our men of honor."
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Search
09-27-2016, 02:01 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


format_quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
i dont know why so many people are being politically correct on this thread either, Islam strongly condemns men who dress up as women, Islam is submission to the will of Allah not submission to perverted desires
I doubt that anyone is following some code of "politically correct" behavior but because people in this thread want to show all due sensitivity and respect to OP as a human being as we're all an "honored" creation of Allah (Quran 17:70). Also, we should never forget that we're all struggling differently and we should strive to share in solidarity the pain of that struggle while also telling the truth in the best way.

Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Facilitate things to people (concerning religious matters), and do not make it hard for them and give them good tidings and do not make them run away (from Islam)."

Jazkallah khayran.


format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
It's because people these days have become "Muslims for the sake of the Kuffaar". Not for the sake of Allaah anymore. Nowadays, people want to make Islaam subservient to the Kuffaar and their satanic desires. They make their whole religion about pleasing a Kaafir. As if a Muslim owes a Kaafir anything. They would gladly lick the backsides of the Kuffaar. Free-of-charge, too.

Spineless, neutered, emasculated...

Abz used to always have that quote in his signature: "Long ago has hope perished, as have our men of honor."
Muslims in this day and age cannot be said to be "Muslims for the sake of the kuffar" because Muslims and Islam are so demonized in the West and East that Muslims today who are actually practicing Muslims are really in it for the sake of Allah and Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him). And to conjecture based on negative assumptions otherwise is telling more about the type of self-righteousness that tends to be the inducement of shaitaan to make persons falsely assume that Muslims doing or saying otherwise are somehow less Muslim or insincere Muslims or hypocrites. The Sahaba :ra: did not go out looking for other believers that are hypocrites but used to see themselves and their own mistakes and their own sins and their own shortcomings in the perfection of the mirror that Prophet's :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) figure represented and worry if they themselves are hypocrites.

Ibn Abi Mulaika said: "I encountered thirty Companions (:ra:) of the Prophet :saws: every one of them fears hypocrisy for himself and Al-Hassan Al-Basri used to say about it: 'No one fears it but a believer and no one feels safe from it but a hypocrite'."

Secondly, kaffir in shari terms is known as a disbeliever. However, I note that people in today's times are quick to use it as a pejorative instead when I wonder if that was the way Allah intended us to use the word in the Quran? Historically, ummah (nation) has been considered all human beings, though divisible into three categories as the Revelation of the Quran was sent for all mankind: The three categories within the term are (1) "ummah-at-dawah" (the persons in the nation to whom invitation and call to Islam is to be extended), (2) "ummah-at-ijaba" (the persons in the nation who accepted the invitation and call to Islam), and (3) "ummah-al-mutaba" (the persons in the nation who accepted the invitation and call to Islam and also are following prophetic footsteps).

We cannot change the religion to please anyone whether that person is a ​believer or unbeliever. However, we can modify our behavior and language to please Allah and remember that Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said that "religion is advice."

Barkallahu feek.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
09-27-2016, 02:07 PM
A person won't find a Jew or Christian, for example, apologising for their religions to please Muslims. Or an atheist apologising for atheism to please Muslims. Or a Hindu apologising for Hinduism to please Muslims. Or a Buddhist. Or a Jedi, even. Or a Sikh. Or a Rastafarian. I have never come across this. Ever. Not one of these groups will "apologise" for their religions to please Muslims.

Why, then, do Muslims feel the need to apologise for Islaam to please them?
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M.I.A.
09-27-2016, 02:44 PM
because those people live there own lives..

and we live ours.

if we have claim of guidance or piety or knowledge..

then it shows in time.



:/ probably.


qul ya ayuhal kafirun



.. politicians dont apolagise either..

its always the same reason, if your not on top your underneath.

maybe they have all got as far as there is only one.

and with it they cause tumult and opression, bloodshed and mischief in the land..

emnity between brothers and far worse.

dont they?
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
09-27-2016, 03:03 PM
Politicians don't apologise either, correct.

Today's Muslims seem to be the only "apologists" around.

They're like the emasculated males who feel the need to "apologise" to the feminists for "the crimes perpetrated by some from the male gender". Why are you apologising for things you didn't do? Grow a backbone.
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M.I.A.
09-27-2016, 03:11 PM
ah well, im sorry to the transgenered people..

im in a hurry.


maybe see you guys/girls around o_0
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
09-27-2016, 03:12 PM
Why are you sorry to the transgender people?
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M.I.A.
09-27-2016, 03:21 PM
because metaphorical hugs and pushes are given out on an individual bases.

...and im always out of hugs.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
09-27-2016, 03:43 PM
"It is not right for a woman to be dressed in man's clothing, or for a man to put on a woman's robe: whoever does such things is disgusting to the Lord, your God." [Deuteronomy, 22:5]
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LaSorcia
09-27-2016, 08:00 PM
I'm not going to reserve comment about the morality of transgender for now, but something occurred to me: This is a relatively new phenomenon in history. There have been men who dress as women in history, but that's usually for a different reason. Along with anti-depressants, one of the most common things found in drinking water is estrogen. Maybe this has something to do with it? It's worth exploring from a medical perspective. In the meantime... drink bottled water!
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فصيح الياسين
09-27-2016, 09:19 PM
Transgendering??? I still wont believe on it.. man will always be man.. and so woman..
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Futuwwa
09-27-2016, 09:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
It's because people these days have become "Muslims for the sake of the Kuffaar". Not for the sake of Allaah anymore. Nowadays, people want to make Islaam subservient to the Kuffaar and their satanic desires. They make their whole religion about pleasing a Kaafir. As if a Muslim owes a Kaafir anything. They would gladly lick the backsides of the Kuffaar. Free-of-charge, too.

Spineless, neutered, emasculated...

Abz used to always have that quote in his signature: "Long ago has hope perished, as have our men of honor."
I'm radically opposed to reforming Islam to please the Kuffaar. However, I see no instances of that on this thread. Only someone who is genuinely concerned because the matter hits close to home.
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Karl
09-27-2016, 11:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
Let me get this straight, there is no accident when it comes to gender, Allah decreed for everyone to be the gender they are
if someone is created as a male but has urges to dress and act womanly then this is peversion from the shaitaan, this is corruption that has happened to the soul
as for medical conditions id rather not speak on them as i do not have the knowledge

i dont know why so many people are being politically correct on this thread either, Islam strongly condemns men who dress up as women, Islam is submission to the will of Allah not submission to perverted desires
There are genetic faults in everybody life is not perfect. Some people are born deformed or spastic others have gender issues, sexuality issues. How is a hermaphrodite meant to act and dress? There are effeminate males wandering around in Saudi Arabia with burqas on and no one would know. But they would be considered freaks if they dressed like a male.
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kritikvernunft
09-28-2016, 03:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by LaSorcia
There have been men who dress as women in history ...
If it is their dress code that disturbs, then let them dress distinctively as Kapı Ağası. The Ottoman Sultan-Khalif liberally employed sex-operated men dressed like that. So, that solution ought to be enough, also for us, no?
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eesa the kiwi
09-28-2016, 05:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
There are genetic faults in everybody life is not perfect. Some people are born deformed or spastic others have gender issues, sexuality issues. How is a hermaphrodite meant to act and dress? There are effeminate males wandering around in Saudi Arabia with burqas on and no one would know. But they would be considered freaks if they dressed like a male.
i said i did not want to speak on medical conditions. i dont have the knowledge, if it is that important to you go speak to an islamic scholar
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kritikvernunft
09-28-2016, 05:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
There are effeminate males wandering around ...
Indeed, we only need a solution for effeminate males. It should not be open to women, because they can marry and have children without any inner drive or desire at all. For a man, it would not work. A man without inner drive or desire cannot marry. So, what is he supposed to do? People without clearly appointed social function may find themselves excluded or even attacked. That will not bring peace.
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Karl
09-28-2016, 09:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
i said i did not want to speak on medical conditions. i dont have the knowledge, if it is that important to you go speak to an islamic scholar
But the thing is, being born hermaphroditic or a female being accidentally born with male genitalia IS really a medical condition. You make judgment on those kind of individuals yet you say you have no knowledge of medical conditions. Such a position seems odd to me.
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eesa the kiwi
09-28-2016, 06:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
But the thing is, being born hermaphroditic or a female being accidentally born with male genitalia IS really a medical condition. You make judgment on those kind of individuals yet you say you have no knowledge of medical conditions. Such a position seems odd to me.
i did not mean i have no knowledge on the condition, i meant i do not have knowledge on the islamic position of such medical conditions
what would you rather have me to do? Make things up about islam or give you my opinion without knowing it is correct or not
no thank you, id rather say i do not know

i repeat, if it really bothers you go to an islamic scholar

as for claiming every pevert that dresses up as a woman can not help it due to medical conditions, this is incorrect not all of them have medical conditions karl in fact most of them dont, these are the ones i can honestly say fall under this hadith

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Prophet (Allah's prayer and salvation be upon him) cursed the effeminate men and those women who assume the similitude (manners) of men. He also said: « Turn them out of your houses ».
(Reported by Bukhari in his Sahih No. 5886)

In islam these people are cursed, im not going to sugarcoat the religion to make liberals happy, if "andrewk" doesnt llike it i suggest he takes it up with Allah on qiyamah and complains that i refused to show approval to his peverted desire of dressing up as a woman
he can see how far that will get him

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sister herb
09-28-2016, 06:46 PM
I think that in some of the comments it is mixed two different terms: transgender and transsexual. I think the OP of this thread isn´t transsexual but transgender. Problem is that at the nowdays here are several new, different types of genders and sexual orientations and it´s hard to keep up which represents what.

I prefer the old-fashion style: here are men whose have borned as men and women whose have borned as women. Rest I don´t understand at all.
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hisnameiszzz
09-28-2016, 06:53 PM
I don't have a view on transgendered people. I won't say whether I agree with them or not, but at the end of the day, if they genuinely believe something is wrong with them and they want to change it, that's their decision at the end of the day.


What bothers me is that they are educating young children about this and I think that is completely wrong. Imagine a child who likes to play with girls and dolls saying he wants to become a girl, and then a few years later decides he wants to become a boy again, how would that work? I think it's sick that my 8 and 5 year old nephews will be educated on this. Sorry, but it's just a no no. They are children. They want to play. Why tell them about these things at that age?


If it wasn't for that Keeping Up With The Kardashian man who became a woman (wasn't it on a bit of a whim? - I don't watch that show, I've watched one episode and it was ridiculous so sorry if it was "his journey" and he wanted to become a woman all along) and it wasn't such a celebrity thing to do, I doubt it would be this common.


Then you have other celebrities cross dressing and people think it's fun to imitate them. I have a lot of Muslim friends who adore Kanye West because he is meant to be a bad a$$ rapper, they all go to his concerts and want to be like him. Kanye sometimes dresses like a woman and walks about with a huge handbag type thing and some of my friends copy him. I think it's ridiculous. They think it's cool. I guess you just let them get on with it. Likewise with a lot of Muslim girls looking up to Rihanna who dresses like a man and they imitate. Oh and before someone rips my head off, I've mentioned Muslim people here because it's an up and coming thing. I've seen heaps of non Muslim men dressed like girls and vice versa. It's nothing new, it's normal I guess but with Muslims, it's something new I have noticed. That is all.

Surely as Muslims, they should be copying the Prophet and his wife/daughter and imitating them instead of some random muppet on television / music videos.

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cooterhein
09-28-2016, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
"It is not right for a woman to be dressed in man's clothing, or for a man to put on a woman's robe: whoever does such things is disgusting to the Lord, your God." [Deuteronomy, 22:5]
Well, that makes it pretty clear what God thinks of that. According to the Old Testament of the Bible. According to the Torah, within the Pentateuch which is within the Tanakh. Pretty clear indeed.

So how should that be enforced, Islamically speaking? What is the proper way in which to prohibit this and enforce it? Should it even be enforced in a secular society? That might be a starting point, but I think I know where you stand on that. Assuming it is enforced though, how should it be enforced?
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Born_Believer
09-28-2016, 08:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cooterhein
Well, that makes it pretty clear what God thinks of that. According to the Old Testament of the Bible. According to the Torah, within the Pentateuch which is within the Tanakh. Pretty clear indeed.

So how should that be enforced, Islamically speaking? What is the proper way in which to prohibit this and enforce it? Should it even be enforced in a secular society? That might be a starting point, but I think I know where you stand on that. Assuming it is enforced though, how should it be enforced?
I know you weren't asking me but I thought you had an interesting question. Especially when you ask about how it should be enforced in a secular society. As muslims, we can't impose Islamic laws in non-Islamic societies. I personally feel disgusted but at the same time ,saddened by trans people who have gone full on through the operation. In fact, I mainly feel terribly sad for those unfortunate souls. Having said that, theres nothing I or anyone else can do.
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Karl
09-29-2016, 12:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
as for claiming every pevert that dresses up as a woman can not help it due to medical conditions, this is incorrect not all of them have medical conditions karl in fact most of them dont, these are the ones i can honestly say fall under this hadith
I think the trouble here is that you are conflating two entirely separate things. What you are talking about is males who look morphologically male yet are muddled in the head to think that they are female, so they act and dress as females. I agree with you that these kind of people come across as ridiculous and DON'T have medical conditions (unless they have mental problems). Totally agree there. But these are TRANSVESTITES and I was not talking about transvestites, I was talking about hermaphrodites and also females accidentally born with a penis (otherwise known as "feminoids"). These DO fall under medical condition because the problem is purely physiological rather than degenerate perversion.
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eesa the kiwi
09-29-2016, 03:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
I think the trouble here is that you are conflating two entirely separate things. What you are talking about is males who look morphologically male yet are muddled in the head to think that they are female, so they act and dress as females. I agree with you that these kind of people come across as ridiculous and DON'T have medical conditions (unless they have mental problems). Totally agree there. But these are TRANSVESTITES and I was not talking about transvestites, I was talking about hermaphrodites and also females accidentally born with a penis (otherwise known as "feminoids"). These DO fall under medical condition because the problem is purely physiological rather than degenerate perversion.
Yes I am talking about transvestites
I also said I do not have sufficient Islamic knowledge to speak on medical conditions what part of that don't you understand
The majority of those who say they are transgender in today's world however are not medically hermaphrodite they are transvestites. These are cursed and I'm not going to say Islam says otherwise to please people
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cooterhein
09-30-2016, 07:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Born_Believer
I know you weren't asking me but I thought you had an interesting question. Especially when you ask about how it should be enforced in a secular society. As muslims, we can't impose Islamic laws in non-Islamic societies. I personally feel disgusted but at the same time ,saddened by trans people who have gone full on through the operation. In fact, I mainly feel terribly sad for those unfortunate souls. Having said that, theres nothing I or anyone else can do.
Thank you very much for responding, I appreciate it.
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Scimitar
10-01-2016, 02:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
The status of sex-change operations in Divine Law, looks a bit ambiguous:

The Ottoman court harem—within the Topkapı Palace (1465–1853) and later the Dolmabahçe Palace (1853–1909) in Istanbul—was under the administration of the eunuchs.

If the Ottoman Sultan-Khalif himself did not see any problem in employing sex-changed men as security guards for his palace, he must obviously not have found it a particularly haraam practice. Furthermore, everybody must have known about it. It could impossibly have been a secret. I could also not find any historical reference to Ottoman mufti or ulema decrying this practice as impermissible. Jews and Christians were clearly allowed to do it, and it was clearly allowed to employ them. I would understand that the Sunni ulema would prefer to disapprove of the practice. There is certainly no obligation to approve of it. Vehemently repudiating the position of the Iranian clergy, however, looks like a stretch. Their point of view is not completely out of the blue ...
It's not so much "seeing nothing wrong with it" but more pragmatism... a man without balls cannot leave a legacy - and therefore, cannot be a threat.

You should learn history... from the masters, and not the establishment.

Scimi
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ruglifeTX
12-26-2016, 12:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
Why do so many Muslims condemn trans people?

.
Here is a better question to ask yourself.

Have you learned juz Amma? Can you recite it by heart? Do you keep salat? Have you found your connection with Allah 5 times a day. Make supplication for the struggles you have or the things that challenge life? Until you have gotten that part of our your life in islam down people's opinions, stances and all those things that aren't part of the basic premise of Islam and practice none of that other stuff matters. No one is perfect and everyone has their struggles. Whether they be their own issue or and issue with someone's opinion.

All you need to worry about is your practice right now. You need to worry about reciting Quran , prayer, learning , embracing everything Allah has for you.

I have my opinion on your actual question but it doesn't matter what my personal views are on your personal life . What matters is your path with Allah And that is what I should be worried about for you.


لَا يُؤْمِنُ أَحَدُكُمْ حَتَّى يُحِبَّ لِأَخِيهِ أَوْ قَالَ لِجَارِهِ مَا يُحِبُّ لِنَفْسِهِ

None of you has faith until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.

Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 13,
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xboxisdead
05-28-2018, 04:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
It's not so much "seeing nothing wrong with it" but more pragmatism... a man without balls cannot leave a legacy - and therefore, cannot be a threat.

You should learn history... from the masters, and not the establishment.

Scimi
But don't you agree forceably castrating men and especially little boys as major crime. You deprived that innocent child from growing up to be a man and having his own legacy.

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'Abd-al Latif
05-28-2018, 09:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
Why do so many Muslims condemn trans people? Let me explain a little bit.

The Quran talles about the two sexes, male and female. Sex, as contrary to many believe, have nothing to do with gender. Gender is a social construct that gives us a means to identify ourselves (whether we identify as man, woman, non-binary, gender nonconforming, agender, bigender, trigender, pangender, demigemder, amd all the other identities).

Sex on the other hand refers to genitalia and gonads: meaning a penis, testes, vulva, ovaries. Now I have to ask the question of, why does it matter if your gender identity "aligns" with your sex? Why does it matter what gender someone identifies as?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Quran repeatedly talks about two sexes, but NOT about gender. From this you can take a stance that it doesn't matter about identity, so long as you don't change your genitalia. Yet if you do this, you have to reconcile with the fact that Iran, a country with Islam as the national religion, conducts the second most amount of sex reassignment surgeries out of all known countries (mainly because they see it as a cure for being gay).

This all brings me back to my original question of why do so many Muslims condemn gender minorities? Is there some part of the Holy Quran that talks about gender identities that I missed?

I support gender minorities, and I can't quite understand why others don't. Hope the rant wasn't too long for some of you.
I'm not even sure where to begin answering this question. In short, the Qur'an talks about male and female as these are referred to as gender. There isn't a need to specifically mention the word gender to mean male and female for it to be understood that there are only two genders because in the Arabic language this is obvious and clear. The Arabic language is very logical, mathematical, and succinct and this is why the Qur'an doesn't need to be overly specific such as specifying the definition of gender or stating the word gender to mean male and female only. It's already understood through the language that male and female are the only two genders that Allah created.
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Scimitar
05-28-2018, 10:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by xboxisdead
But don't you agree forceably castrating men and especially little boys as major crime. You deprived that innocent child from growing up to be a man and having his own legacy.

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I disagree with castration full stop! I haven't deprived any child anything ;) Not sure why you are attempting to put me on that back foot, maybe because the point of my post went over your head?

I'll reiterate it in two words: Learn History!
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Futuwwa
05-28-2018, 12:06 PM
Thread necromancy! What is dead may never die! Screeeeeeeeeeeeee!
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Scimitar
05-28-2018, 12:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Thread necromancy! What is dead may never die! Screeeeeeeeeeeeee!
lol, keeps things tidy at least, no?
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xboxisdead
05-28-2018, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Thread necromancy! What is dead may never die! Screeeeeeeeeeeeee!
:D:D:D:D LOOL!!! ;D;D;D:haha::haha::haha: I like you Futuwwa!! AHAHA

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format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
I disagree with castration full stop! I haven't deprived any child anything ;) Not sure why you are attempting to put me on that back foot, maybe because the point of my post went over your head?

I'll reiterate it in two words: Learn History!
I am so happy to hear it! I disagree with castration full stop also!! :D :D I was watching in these korean movies that talk about the prince and all that (history movies) and how they tie a boy of age 10 or so...in a chair and get a sword and castrate him to be an enuch and how he screams in pain and many die out of it. I am like...damn...this is a monster! Abuse! Evil at highest level. :facepalm::facepalm: Of course there was no rally...nothing about this abuse...nope. Nothing like that.

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Scimitar
05-28-2018, 03:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by xboxisdead
I am so happy to hear it! I disagree with castration full stop also!! :D :D I was watching in these korean movies that talk about the prince and all that (history movies) and how they tie a boy of age 10 or so...in a chair and get a sword and castrate him to be an enuch and how he screams in pain and many die out of it...
No need to look as far as Korea, The Ottomans had Janissaries (look it up) - as if that wasn't bad enough, the Ottomans castrated them too!
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happymuslim
05-28-2018, 03:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
If u still are female, then know that changing gender is a major sin afaik.

It comes under the heading of changing the creation of Allah - outwardly but not truly.

And Allah :swt: knows best.
Exactly And trannies are literally self delusional individuals who suffer from gender dysphasia. They are encouraged by society to act on mentally driven whims and desires. If trannies were really only considered about gender they wouldn’t try changing their private parts.
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xboxisdead
05-28-2018, 03:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
No need to look as far as Korea, The Ottomans had Janissaries (look it up) - as if that wasn't bad enough, the Ottomans castrated them too!
Here is what I have to say to anyone who castrate boys and forceably castrate innocent men, may Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) give that person the severest punishment in the dunaya and afterlife, ameen. Isn't if you kill someone it is like you killed all humanity and if you saved someone you saved all humanity? Because through that person millions and billions of people will come. That is exactly the same if you castrate someone. Except the person is alive but you killed his ability to bring forth new life to this world. Castration should be left for the criminals (adults) who deserve this. Not for innocent children and innocent men to fulfill your whim of power and pretty much control. Fear that man have his legacy? Fear it! It is his right to have his legacy. It is the right of a child to grow masculine and have masculine attribute and become strong, and confident and become a man and grow beard and have his legacy. It is not the right of anyone to take this away from him. This is disgusting. I truly hate what Ottomans did!!

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anatolian
05-28-2018, 05:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bushwackk
No need to look as far as Korea, The Ottomans had Janissaries (look it up) - as if that wasn't bad enough, the Ottomans castrated them too!
This made me laugh out loud. LOL. I cannot imagine some castrated feminen soldiers with fancy mustaches trying to conquer Istanbul or at the gates of Vienna.

You absolutely confused the harem boys with the Jannisaries.
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Scimitar
05-28-2018, 05:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
This made me laugh out loud. LOL. I cannot imagine some castrated feminen soldiers with fancy mustaches trying to conquer Istanbul or at the gates of Vienna.

You absolutely confused the harem boys with the Jannisaries.
I did too, doesn't change the fact that castration was an Ottoman practice does it?
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anatolian
05-28-2018, 06:10 PM
Yes it was a cruel practice
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