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noraina
09-27-2016, 10:20 AM
Assalamu alaykum,

I found this to be so accurate! Interestingly, I was mentioning this the other day (being a literature freak) how his English genuinely bothers me sometimes for someone aspiring to be the head of state. What struck me is how at rallies he will leave a sentence half-done, hanging in the air, and leave it deliberately to his supporters to grasp his intended meaning.

Reminds me of Bush, his mastery of the English language was (in)famous :p.


-----------------------------------------------

“The American people deserve a president who can speak grammatical English."
--Bret Stephens


I’m aware that English Professors are perceived as relentless grammarians. On meeting me, many highly accomplished adults recall a scary English teacher from their past. They are likely to say: ‘I was never good in English. I guess I’ll have to watch my what I say.’


I learned to write in grade school where we competed in spelling bees and diagrammed sentences, but I do not teach these subjects. Instead, I teach literature. I present authors from the “canon,” e.g. Shakespeare, as well as ones from the global range of writers in English today. Although I began my career as a specialist in Renaissance English Literature, I now teach mostly creative writing in the fields of memoir and poetry, with an emphasis on writers from different genders, races and ethnicities.


So I’m not your schoolmarm embodiment of grammatical authority, rapping your knuckles for making an error of composition or humiliating you for not speaking or writing correctly.


But it really bothers me that Donald Trump speaks and writes so badly. Which brings me to the subject of composition and why it matters.

At first, I regarded Mr. Trump as the master of Tweet—a pithy and effective means of mass communication. Tweet, due to its succinctness, has a poetic quality, achieving, at its best, the precision of Haiku. It also has a downside. It allows Mr. Trump to make bold statements on the spur of the moment, which he can (and often does) retract—as in ‘I never said that; I meant something else; you have misunderstood me; why are you attacking me.’ Tweet allows him to say anything, gauge the public reaction, then deny what he said (if it appears impolitic) later. As a result, he contradicts himself often and with impunity. ‘Throw that baby out?’ ‘I was just kidding.’


Many of these statements can be viewed side by side, on split-screen TV. So what? Logical contradiction does not matter. Would I have gotten away with this in grade school? Absolutely not.


Is this ‘who cares’ attitude a by-product of the shortened attention spans of today’s social media attuned society? We click and move on. Click and move on. At the end of the day, what do we recall of our activities, much less whom we have texted or messaged over the course of the past 24 hours? Mmmm.
More importantly, if Mr. Trump cannot remember what he said yesterday, or two weeks ago or even while he is speaking, how can we be expected to create a consistent portrait of him, much less his policies?


Is he (as many have asserted by now) grandiose, narcissistic, sociopathic, or simply a person who has no core beliefs or identity, so he can veer this way or that according to the perceived advantage or grievance of the day?


Here’s my take. At the heart of Donald Trump there is a man who is acutely sensitive to feelings of being wronged, made to appear weak or small (think of his obsession with his hands), or victimized. He sees the United States as being invaded by drug dealers and murderers from Mexico, describes open trade agreements as ‘raping’ the US economy and portrays internal and external terrorists (think Muslims) as running unchecked through our society.

Mr. Trump, I would argue, does not feel big, powerful, or in control. His appeal to a certain segment of the US voting population seems based on his identification with them in their self-perceived weakness and vulnerability, masked by an authoritarian promise that he alone can fix things—by consulting the “shows,” holding “meetings,” trusting the advice of his adult children (all of whom work for him and are hence beholden to him) and himself.


But here’s my real beef. It’s how badly he speaks. As a fascinated viewer of his early rallies, I noticed how often he repeats himself. He uses key words or phrases at least three times before moving on to the next thought segment. His pronouncements are assertions, rather than arguments, masked by the habit of repetition. In conventional politics, leaders attempt to explain their positions by persuading their listeners. Mr. Trump does not attempt to persuade. Rather he moves from one emotionally charged assertion to another—with no evident process of reasoning.


Filler lines run like this: ‘You won’t believe this.’ ‘It’s terrible.’ “I have to tell you.’ His thoughts follow the path of free association. He moves from one statement to another without connection, and ends more often than not, where he began.


Here’s an extended quote from a recent rally:
"In many respects you know they [ISIS] honor President Obama. ISIS is honoring President Obama! He is the founder of ISIS. He’s the founder of ISIS, O.K? He’s the founder, he founded ISIS and I would say the co-founder would be crooked Hilary Clinton. Co-founder, crooked Hillary Clinton. And that’s what it’s about." (Quoted from NYT editorial August 11, 2016 (link is external))


If this were a paragraph in English composition, it would earn an F.


Why?


One reason that we learn to communicate in sentences, paragraphs, essays, articles and books is so that we can reveal our thinking processes to others and hope to persuade them to our point of view. This is as true of scientists as humanists. Once we learn the rules of grammar and composition (however many ways we may wish to violate them), we can speak a common language.


Professors of English know that if our students want to find jobs where they will need to be able to communicate effectively with their diverse co-workers they will also need to master basic skills in speaking, writing and critical thinking. Saying the same thing over and over again, without offering a rationale or factual basis for your position, will get you nowhere. Computer Science (a highly touted field today) requires proficiency in logical thinking. You can’t just flail your arms and arrive at new Apple software product.


Mr. Trump’s habits of repetition coupled with strategic imprecision (witness all of the interpretations offered for the single word “founded”) allow him to rally his supporters to a high pitch of emotion--while providing him with an easy exit, should he feel the need.


Trump supporters say that his critics are “parsing words,” as if it doesn’t matter what he says. Yet they themselves speak clearly and rationally, offering plausible interpretations of what he might have meant. Since his recorded speech is so ambiguous and/or easily denied, it’s impossible to pin him down. As Duncan Hunter wearily acknowledged this week on CNN: “He misspeaks a lot.”


At a time when a misspoken word or phrase might plunge us into nuclear war (think Kim Jong-Un), this might be a good time to embrace your inner grammarian.
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Serinity
09-27-2016, 12:42 PM
:salam:

I think Trump said "Obama founded ISIS, Obama the founder of ISIS, OK? Founder of ISIS ! Founded ISIS!.... And the Co-founder is Hilary Clinton, Co-founder Hilary Clinton, that is what I wanted to say...... " he said 5 times that Obama is the founder of ISIS in one paragraph! loolllllll............. I think he is indecisive or trying to catch his audience or something..... a clown.

And Allah :swt: knows best.
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kritikvernunft
09-27-2016, 12:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by noraina;2930266[I
"In many respects you know they [ISIS] honor President Obama. ISIS is honoring President Obama! He is the founder of ISIS. He’s the founder of ISIS, O.K? He’s the founder, he founded ISIS and I would say the co-founder would be crooked Hilary Clinton. Co-founder, crooked Hillary Clinton. And that’s what it’s about." [/I]If this were a paragraph in English composition, it would earn an F. Why?
Attention span is the amount of concentrated time one can spend on a task without becoming distracted ... and also the maximum amount of time that someone can listen to another person explaining an idea. The Trump audience can listen for max. 30 seconds. Hence, you must make your point in no more than 25 seconds: Obama is the founder of ISIS and Hillary Clinton is the co-founder. That is a winner. Trump manages to make his point in less than 10 seconds. You see, your point does not need to be true. It only needs to be short and simple.
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Serinity
09-27-2016, 01:03 PM
Lets hope, God willing, Trump doesn't become President. he is unfit, and has the mentality of a 8 year old.
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noraina
09-27-2016, 02:26 PM
Sometimes I have difficulty understanding his appeal.

He is not a particularly eloquent or charismatic speaker, I have listened to him and honestly even if he wasn't coming out with those twisted opinions I still wouldn't want to hear him speak. I'm supposing it's his very animated personality and outrageous statements, because he has 0 points as far as inspirational words are concerned.

Altho the writer of the article reminds me of my English teacher. Alhamdulillah I was her favourite student, the star English pupil ;).
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Born_Believer
09-28-2016, 09:00 PM
Since this is a thread about Trump and I hope there are some American posters here...so my question is, who do you vote for?

Knowing what I know about Hillary, she is just a smarter, more well honed version of Trump. Both sound like psychotic war mongers to me. I'd hate to be involved in wondering who to vote for.
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anatolian
09-28-2016, 09:18 PM
Trump cannot be that idiot in reality. He must be a very clever man inorder to collect all those wealth. He just speaks with the tongue of his voters..
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AnnaK
09-28-2016, 09:49 PM
He's speaking just like Hitler in the way he's trying to create an "us vs them" mentality. He has supporters because they don't like social change, and they want everything to go back to how it was decades ago.

I personally think that no one that racist, sexist, or islamaphobic deserves the presidency. Bottom line, Trump is a hate mongerer. I can't vote for Hillary either, so I'm voting for green party candidate Jill Stein.

I encourage anyone here who is American to go out and vote third party.
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Search
09-28-2016, 09:58 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

format_quote Originally Posted by Born_Believer
Since this is a thread about Trump and I hope there are some American posters here...so my question is, who do you vote for?

Knowing what I know about Hillary, she is just a smarter, more well honed version of Trump. Both sound like psychotic war mongers to me. I'd hate to be involved in wondering who to vote for.
Yes, you are correct; they are both war hawks. I actually dislike the idea of voting for any of them and therefore have intermittent thoughts about whether I should vote for any of them. They are both good at lying. They are both good at hoodwinking the gullible. They've both reneged on deals.

What it comes down to ultimately is just which of the two nominees is worse.

And I've decided for now that Trump is worse because he's a "loose cannon." If I could ever out of my own imagination create a figure that would be more likely to use nuclear weapons and thrust us into warfare, then it would be a figure like Trump. Not to mention that it is not him that particularly worries me as I don't think Trump himself is either xenophobic or racist or uneducated and ignorant but I do think a majority of his right-winger base from which he draws his unwavering support is. Many number Neo-Nazi groups openly favor him. (I have more sympathy for the liberals that are supporting Trump because in some way they seem to just want to see a different America in which we don't have a de facto oligarchy due to special interest lobbying.)

However, if Trump wins, I think we can expect to see xenophobic, racist, and illiberal discourse as well as hate crimes exponentially on the rise in the U.S. Also, I'd once read in an article that when GOP has a majority in the Congress and also a GOP President, then right-wing terrorism directly rises to a noticeably very significant degree because right-wingers get frustrated with not getting what they were promised as they don't expect to have things they'd like done when there's a Democrat President or a majority Democratic Congress but they do expect so under the leadership that they perceive as their own. So, that's why I think Donald Trump presidency is a recipe for disaster (how much of a disaster is still anybody's guess).

So, yes, while I'm gearing to vote for Hillary Clinton, I'm doing so very reluctantly; and to be honest, I still have reservations.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
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Born_Believer
09-28-2016, 10:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)



Yes, you are correct; they are both war hawks. I actually dislike the idea of voting for any of them and therefore have intermittent thoughts about whether I should vote for any of them. They are both good at lying. They are both good at hoodwinking the gullible. They've both reneged on deals.

What it comes down to ultimately is just which of the two nominees is worse.

And I've decided for now that Trump is worse because he's a "loose cannon." If I could ever out of my own imagination create a figure that would be more likely to use nuclear weapons and thrust us into warfare, then it would be a figure like Trump. Not to mention that it is not him that particularly worries me as I don't think Trump himself is either xenophobic or racist or uneducated and ignorant but I do think a majority of his right-winger base from which he draws his unwavering support is. Many number Neo-Nazi groups openly favor him. (I have more sympathy for the liberals that are supporting Trump because in some way they seem to just want to see a different America in which we don't have a de facto oligarchy due to special interest lobbying.)

However, if Trump wins, I think we can expect to see xenophobic, racist, and illiberal discourse as well as hate crimes exponentially on the rise in the U.S. Also, I'd once read in an article that when GOP has a majority in the Congress and also a GOP President, then right-wing terrorism directly rises to a noticeably very significant degree because right-wingers get frustrated with not getting what they were promised as they don't expect to have things they'd like done when there's a Democrat President or a majority Democratic Congress but they do expect so under the leadership that they perceive as their own. So, that's why I think Donald Trump presidency is a recipe for disaster (how much of a disaster is still anybody's guess).

So, yes, while I'm gearing to vote for Hillary Clinton, I'm doing so very reluctantly; and to be honest, I still have reservations.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Walaikum salam

In all honesty, it's probably what I would do too :exhausted
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Karl
10-01-2016, 03:03 AM
The president is a figure head and Trump comes across as a perfect American, big, loud, of Scottish and German blood and can't speak good English, but he can speak "American". Clinton comes across as an old woman, a career politician in the shadow of Bill with no class but speaks in a pompous manner. She would not be taken seriously by most of the world leaders as they are men. She is also a militant feminist fanatic and once sung "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran". She is a psychopath. Trump is probably not a psychopath just a nationalist republican just saying anything to get the vote.
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fschmidt
10-01-2016, 04:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Born_Believer
Since this is a thread about Trump and I hope there are some American posters here...so my question is, who do you vote for?

Knowing what I know about Hillary, she is just a smarter, more well honed version of Trump. Both sound like psychotic war mongers to me. I'd hate to be involved in wondering who to vote for.
That's easy, I don't vote. America is a lost cause and I have better things to do than waste my time on lost causes.
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Little_Lion
10-01-2016, 08:04 AM
I cannot vote Jill Stein, because she is not on the ballot in my state. Gary Johnson is, but I do not have any confidence in him based on what I have seen in interviews with him. I just don't think he is ready for the office yet.

I will be VERY reluctantly voting Hillary just to keep Trump out.

I was a huge Bernie supporter. :cry:
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Serinity
10-01-2016, 08:19 AM
:salam:

Seriously?

Voting is haram, afaik. Can any scholar confirm? @huzaifah ibn Adam.

Voting for whom will be the next commander to bomb Muslims................

Democracy is shirk.

And Allah :swt: knows best.
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anatolian
10-01-2016, 08:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
:salam:

Seriously?

Voting is haram, afaik. ....
Dude..You cant be real?
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Serinity
10-01-2016, 09:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Dude..You cant be real?
I am real.
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noraina
10-01-2016, 10:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Little_Lion
I cannot vote Jill Stein, because she is not on the ballot in my state. Gary Johnson is, but I do not have any confidence in him based on what I have seen in interviews with him. I just don't think he is ready for the office yet.

I will be VERY reluctantly voting Hillary just to keep Trump out.

I was a huge Bernie supporter. :cry:

There's something just very undemocratic the way the options are limited to these two candidates.

I too, thought Bernie was one of the decent politicians out there who wouldn't be bad as the President, really unfortunate he couldn't make it.
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anatolian
10-01-2016, 10:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
I am real.
So you need to study the first Islamic history more..The four Caliphas were elected. They voted for their Caliphas..Are you saying they were chosen through a haram way?
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Born_Believer
10-01-2016, 10:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt
That's easy, I don't vote. America is a lost cause and I have better things to do than waste my time on lost causes.
Do you still live in America?
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Born_Believer
10-01-2016, 11:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
:salam:

Seriously?

Voting is haram, afaik. Can any scholar confirm? @huzaifah ibn Adam.

Voting for whom will be the next commander to bomb Muslims................

Democracy is shirk.

And Allah :swt: knows best.
This could be a whole topic on its own although I've met a few Muslims in the uK with similar and thankfully, niche views.

Our Rashidun Khalifah were all voted into power. Voting or democracy, in and of itself, is not haram. It is the Islamic way. We see the great fitnah in the muslim community arise as democracy became less relevant and power was transferred from father to son.

However, I do understand if Muslims did not want to vote in a khafir country, because you put it, we may well be electing the next person to bomb Muslim countries. Having said that, the good of voting far outweighs the bad.

If Muslims realised just how much power they have as voters in the west, with millions for example in the UK and elsewhere, we could turn the tide in favour of policies that we want. The Jews have done that consistently with far fewer people. In the UK, 2.7 million muslims have only 13 MPs, whereas a fraction of the number in the Jewish community have at least twice as many MPs (that are openly Jewish).

Imagine if more and more Muslims got involved in the democratic process, more and more of us in councils, then from councils I local governance, from local governance in parliament. We would have a significant say on international affairs and warfare. Currently, 10 of the 13 MPs voted against airstrikes in Syria. If more were involved, we could have turned the tide in Parliament.
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Serinity
10-01-2016, 12:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Born_Believer
This could be a whole topic on its own although I've met a few Muslims in the uK with similar and thankfully, niche views.

Our Rashidun Khalifah were all voted into power. Voting or democracy, in and of itself, is not haram. It is the Islamic way. We see the great fitnah in the muslim community arise as democracy became less relevant and power was transferred from father to son.

However, I do understand if Muslims did not want to vote in a khafir country, because you put it, we may well be electing the next person to bomb Muslim countries. Having said that, the good of voting far outweighs the bad.

If Muslims realised just how much power they have as voters in the west, with millions for example in the UK and elsewhere, we could turn the tide in favour of policies that we want. The Jews have done that consistently with far fewer people. In the UK, 2.7 million muslims have only 13 MPs, whereas a fraction of the number in the Jewish community have at least twice as many MPs (that are openly Jewish).

Imagine if more and more Muslims got involved in the democratic process, more and more of us in councils, then from councils I local governance, from local governance in parliament. We would have a significant say on international affairs and warfare. Currently, 10 of the 13 MPs voted against airstrikes in Syria. If more were involved, we could have turned the tide in Parliament.
Voting for a Khalifah is not like voting in democracy at all.

Democracy is for the people, and by the people, voting in accordance to the people. This is shirk.

In an Islamic State (afaik) one votes according to the Qur'aan and the Sunnah - to see whom is best. Democracy is not like that. And democracy is not Islamic.

In democracy people vote according to their desires and what they think is best. Giving people sovereignty, while sovereignty is for Allah alone. And His :swt: Prophet :saws1: (afaik)

So you can not say voting for a Khalifah = democracy. It is not. Since we do not vote for a Khalifah according to our desires, but the Qur'aan, and laymen can not (afaik) appoint a khalifah.

Only those who are knowledgable in Qur'aan and Sunnah, and those who Judge according to the Qur'aan. In this regard, a Khalifah is appointed.
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Serinity
10-01-2016, 12:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
So you need to study the first Islamic history more..The four Caliphas were elected. They voted for their Caliphas..Are you saying they were chosen through a haram way?
The way they were elected is not the way of Democracy.

Democracy as it is known today "rule by the people" is shirk.

They were elected and judged by judging them from the book of Allah.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-01-2016, 01:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
:salam:

Seriously?

Voting is haram, afaik. Can any scholar confirm? @huzaifah ibn Adam.

Voting for whom will be the next commander to bomb Muslims................

Democracy is shirk.

And Allah :swt: knows best.
Yes. For the past hundred years the `Ulamaa of Haqq have been unanimous that voting is Haraam. The view that voting is permissible is a new opinion that cropped up only recently. The old `Ulamaa used to consider it Kufr to vote.

How the world is changing...

Those `Ulamaa left the Dunyaa, and new "Celebrity Shaykhs" have taken their place. Those `Ulamaa would turn in their graves if they saw what these new ones are catching on and what Fatwas they are giving...

100 years ago, the idea of someone saying that voting is permissible would have been considered insane. The people would have said, "Where in the world will any `Aalim give a Fatwaa like that??" Today they say it is permissible. The modernist "Shaykhs" who base their Deen on pleasing America. House-wives, we call them.

Everything is changing...

There is no goodness in being in this Dunyaa anymore.

...فإلى الله المشتكى وهو المستعان


Was-Salaam.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-01-2016, 01:06 PM
First four Khulafaa didn't come about through voting, by the way. Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه chose to make Hadhrat Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه the Khaleefah because he knew that Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم wanted that. Hadhrat Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه appointed Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه as his Khaleefah. Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه gave a list of a few names of who he felt should become the Khaleefah after him. Hadhrat `Uthmaan رضي الله عنه was chosen. Thereafter, in the time of Hadhrat `Ali رضي الله عنه the time of Fitnah arose, and the famous disagreement between the army of Hadhrat `Ali رضي الله عنه and the army of Hadhrat Mu`aawiyah رضي الله عنه took place, etc.

Anyway. There were no elections and voting.

And democracy is Kufr. Democracy is a religion. The Qur'aan states that whosoever rules by contrary to what Allaah Ta`aalaa has revealed, they are the Kaafireen. Democracy is for the people to rule by whatever they feel. That, in the eyes of Islaam, is satanism. Only Allaah Ta`aalaa has the right to legislate.

والسلام
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-01-2016, 01:15 PM
Haven't read through the whole site, but the first article is good:

https://muslimsagainstvoting.wordpress.com/
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500yardsoffo
10-01-2016, 01:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
First four Khulafaa didn't come about through voting, by the way. Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه chose to make Hadhrat Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه the Khaleefah because he knew that Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم wanted that. Hadhrat Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه appointed Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه as his Khaleefah. Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه gave a list of a few names of who he felt should become the Khaleefah after him. Hadhrat `Uthmaan رضي الله عنه was chosen. Thereafter, in the time of Hadhrat `Ali رضي الله عنه the time of Fitnah arose, and the famous disagreement between the army of Hadhrat `Ali رضي الله عنه and the army of Hadhrat Mu`aawiyah رضي الله عنه took place, etc.

Anyway. There were no elections and voting.

And democracy is Kufr. Democracy is a religion. The Qur'aan states that whosoever rules by contrary to what Allaah Ta`aalaa has revealed, they are the Kaafireen. Democracy is for the people to rule by whatever they feel. That, in the eyes of Islaam, is satanism. Only Allaah Ta`aalaa has the right to legislate.

والسلام
Brother Can you please briefly explain how can islamic way of running a country and electing rulers work today in this era? As we all know we have so many sects in one country so from which sect the ruler will be chosen as we cannot choose from the sect which is in majority ( because that happens in democracy)?
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Serinity
10-01-2016, 01:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
First four Khulafaa didn't come about through voting, by the way. Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه chose to make Hadhrat Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه the Khaleefah because he knew that Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم wanted that. Hadhrat Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه appointed Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه as his Khaleefah. Hadhrat `Umar رضي الله عنه gave a list of a few names of who he felt should become the Khaleefah after him. Hadhrat `Uthmaan رضي الله عنه was chosen. Thereafter, in the time of Hadhrat `Ali رضي الله عنه the time of Fitnah arose, and the famous disagreement between the army of Hadhrat `Ali رضي الله عنه and the army of Hadhrat Mu`aawiyah رضي الله عنه took place, etc.

Anyway. There were no elections and voting.

And democracy is Kufr. Democracy is a religion. The Qur'aan states that whosoever rules by contrary to what Allaah Ta`aalaa has revealed, they are the Kaafireen. Democracy is for the people to rule by whatever they feel. That, in the eyes of Islaam, is satanism. Only Allaah Ta`aalaa has the right to legislate.

والسلام
It makes sense that ruling should be only according to the Qur'aan, the literal 100% word of Allah.

So how is a khalifah appointed? I know that they are judged by the Qur'aan and the Sunnah, whether they are fit or not.

In no way is a Khalifah appointed according to the "will of the People" or desires, this is satanism, afaik.

So how is it? And how would one go about doing it today? Or do we have no choice but to wait for Madhi r.a. who will rule by the Qur'aan and the Sunnah 100% ?
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Search
10-01-2016, 03:48 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

I complete yet respectfully disagree with your view towards lamentation, and I ask those who are propagating the view that voting is haram (forbidden) to please sensibly read this post in full before doing so. Thank you, all of you, in advance for your consideration and patience.


format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
Yes. For the past hundred years the `Ulamaa of Haqq have been unanimous that voting is Haraam. The view that voting is permissible is a new opinion that cropped up only recently. The old `Ulamaa used to consider it Kufr to vote.
The Ottoman Caliphate itself fell during 1918-1920; the 'ulamaa (scholars) of the past did not envision a time in which we as Muslims would be living in a time wherein Muslim leadership in the globe would be without power and our world's new realities would require voting if we should want to change anything for Muslims in terms of our combined present and future in non-Muslim majority countries. So, as is always the case, new realities required adaptation by the 'ulamaa and ijtihad (independent juristic reasoning). Please read the article "Viewpoint: Door of Ijtihaad is Open."

فَأَلْهَمَهَا فُجُورَهَا وَتَقْوَاهَا

Fa-alhamaha fujooraha wa taqwaha

And He inspired us to do the good and to avoid the bad. (Surat ash-Shams, 91:8).

Those `Ulamaa left the Dunyaa, and new "Celebrity Shaykhs" have taken their place. Those `Ulamaa would turn in their graves if they saw what these new ones are catching on and what Fatwas they are giving...
It is not only "Celebrity Shaykhs" giving the fatwa (ruling) of voting; my own mosque has a Sunni Hanafi Imam that is the graduate of a madrassah (school) in India and he himself encouraged for us to vote in this election. Not only that, many mosques across the U.S. have done the same whether Salafi, Barelwi, Sufi, Deobandi, Shia, whatever are doing the same. This is a matter of difference in fiqh (juristic) understanding and we should treat it as such instead of lamenting it as an issue of changed world and kufr (disbelief).

100 years ago, the idea of someone saying that voting is permissible would have been considered insane. The people would have said, "Where in the world will any `Aalim give a Fatwaa like that??" Today they say it is permissible. The modernist "Shaykhs" who base their Deen on pleasing America. House-wives, we call them.
100 years ago, we still had an Islamic Caliphate because the Ottomans were in power and their rule didn't collapse until 1918-1920. So, how could they have given fatwas (ruling) for our time as they're not soothsayers.

I think frankly a reality check is in order for all of us here participating in this thread which can only be done when we look to irresponsible fatwas (rulings) that have been issued in the past.

For example, I note that the 'ulamaa in India in 1900s issued a fatwa (ruling) that learning English is haram (forbidden) and kufr (disbelief) because they didn't want to imitate the non-Muslims in learning the English. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, one of the founders of colleges in India, was one of the first to oppose this fatwa (ruling). However, to whom did the Muslim landowners listen? To these backwards 'ulemaa (scholars). I learned all this from the Indian Muslim layperson to whom I conversed with said probably was issued from the 'ulamaa of Deoband but he wasn't sure.

Regardless, the Muslims of that time accepted an irresponsible, impractical and unwise fatwa (ruling) as the truth that they should adopt. Do you know what happened? The Indian government conducted adverse possession usurping the lands from underneath these aristocratic and rich Muslim landowners and paid pittance for that usurpation and overnight their wealth with that edict in terms of land was gone. These Muslim landowners had no formal education and had long eschewed the learning of English on which they might have been able to rely. What's notable also is that the Hindu sycophants that were their servants in the time and houses of these aristocratic Muslim landowners before this edict of abolishing zamindaari (aristocratic landholding) would suck up to them and say that these Muslims were too good and right and they didn't need to learn English while they themselves would educate their children in English schools. So, what happened? The Muslim landowners not only lost their wealth and became poor but their daughters landed in prostitute houses because these Muslim men couldn't muster even the ghairaat (self-respect) to try to earn so that their families would not starve and so their daughters took up the world's oldest profession to feed their useless Muslim fathers and brothers. Today, a large segment of the Muslim population in India is quite poor as a result of this history, and these Muslims are now mistreated by their Hindu masters and Hindu neighbors. Illiteracy, as I hope you might have some cause to realize, is a hotbed for superstitions to also thrive and therefore these Muslims have mixed Islamic beliefs with Hindu superstition and then of course I note you'd probably also be quick to lament that they commit shirk (idolatry) yet you fail to realize that the original failure lay in their forefathers having failed to adapt to new realities that is permissible in Islam as the mercy of ijtihad (independent juristic reasoning) is available to us as Muslims and we can so doing flourish in our societies in every age.

Therefore, I link you to the article, "Viewpoint: Door of Ijtihaad is Open."

Finally, I also note that in Islam actions are by intentions. Therefore, the fatwa (ruling) such as the one issued by Imam Senad of Chicago saying, "It may be the case that the interests of Islam require Muslims to vote so as to ward off the greater evil and to reduce harmful effects" is correct and should not be demonized.

Umar ibn al-Khattab :ra: relayed the hadith (prophetic tradition), "Verily actions are by intentions, and for every person is what he intended. So the one whose hijrah (migration) was to Allah and His Messenger, then his hijrah was to Allah and His Messenger. And the one whose hijrah was for the world to gain from it, or a woman to marry her, then his hijrah was to what he made hijrah for."

Imam Shafi'i said of this hadith (prophetic tradition) by Umar :ra:, "This hadith constitutes a third of all knowledge."

Imam Ahmad said, "The foundations of Islam are upon three ahadith and that one of them is The hadith of 'Umar, 'Verily actions are by intention.

Abu Dawud said, "I looked into the hadith of the Musnad (i.e. of Ahmad) and it consisted of 40,000 ahadith. Then I looked again and (found that) the 40,000 ahadith revolved around 4 ahadith: and that one of them is The hadith of 'Umar, 'Verily actions are by intention.

And Abu Dawud further said, "Fiqh revolves around 5 ahadith (prophetic traditions): and that one of them is The hadith of 'Umar, 'Verily actions are by intention.'"

So, what we learn here is that intentions are "one third of all knowledge" and the "foundations of Islam" and 40,000 ahadith revolved around 'Verily actions are by intention' of Imam Ahmad's Musnad and its 1 of 5 hadiths that does Fiqh also revolves around it too.

Therefore, Muslims who are voting to ward off greater harm off of Muslims anywhere in any non-Muslim majority or Muslim majority country cannot be said to be doing any act that is haram (forbidden) or kufr (disbelief) and this deed does not require the lamentation of any imam, scholar, or layperson.

If somebody doesn't want to vote, that is of a certainty also a choice that they have the right to exercise; however, for those who do vote, they cannot be said to be doing any wrong; and I implore everyone to be sensible and not make a fiqh (juristic) difference into a cause of lamentation.

Thank you.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-01-2016, 04:17 PM
With regards to: "100 years ago, we still had an Islamic Caliphate because the Ottomans were in power and their rule didn't collapse until 1918-1920. So, how could they have given fatwas (ruling) for our time as they're not soothsayers."


The answer, sister, is that the Arabs did not recognise the Ottomans as being a Khilaafah. Some of the students of Muhammad ibn `Abdil Wahhaab even went as far as to say that the Ottoman rulers were Kuffaar and that the Ottoman dynasty was illegitimate. That's why they fought against the Ottomans and threw them out of Saudi Arabia, long before Kamal Attaturk formally abolished the Khilaafah in 1924. One notable example of a scholar who held this view (that the Ottomans were not the legitimate rulers of the Muslims) is Shaykh Naasir al-Fahd. The same is echoed by many of the Arab scholars, past and present. In fact, Naasir al-Fahd wrote an entire book on the issue of why he regarded them to be Kuffaar, Mushrikeen and illegitimate rulers, but I will not post it here as it won't serve any useful purpose. I respectfully disagree with the view of the Shaykh.

Anyway, that is a separate discussion entirely.

I remember, when growing up, all the Ulema in SA were against voting. It's surprising how much has changed, so soon.

The sister mentioned a Fatwaa given by some Ulema from India that learning English is Haraam: The person who told it to you, sister, has taken what happened out of context. You can read more about the issue here: http://www.darululoom-deoband.com/en...edu/index4.htm

Was-Salaam.
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fschmidt
10-01-2016, 06:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Born_Believer
Do you still live in America?
Yes but I live in El Paso where the culture is Mexican and I plan to move near a conservative Mennonite church in a rural area because I like their culture (even though I am not Christian). America is still wealthy because it used to be a moral country, so my ideal is to live comfortably by doing business with Americans mostly on the internet while avoiding contact with Americans as much as possible in real life.
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Born_Believer
10-02-2016, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt
Yes but I live in El Paso where the culture is Mexican and I plan to move near a conservative Mennonite church in a rural area because I like their culture (even though I am not Christian). America is still wealthy because it used to be a moral country, so my ideal is to live comfortably by doing business with Americans mostly on the internet while avoiding contact with Americans as much as possible in real life.
I'm curious to know when America was a moral country.

And if you're still living in America, then you should become a more active part of American society, in particular the political side of things, so you could make a genuine difference.
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Born_Believer
10-02-2016, 03:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
Voting for a Khalifah is not like voting in democracy at all.

Democracy is for the people, and by the people, voting in accordance to the people. This is shirk.

In an Islamic State (afaik) one votes according to the Qur'aan and the Sunnah - to see whom is best. Democracy is not like that. And democracy is not Islamic.

In democracy people vote according to their desires and what they think is best. Giving people sovereignty, while sovereignty is for Allah alone. And His :swt: Prophet :saws1: (afaik)

So you can not say voting for a Khalifah = democracy. It is not. Since we do not vote for a Khalifah according to our desires, but the Qur'aan, and laymen can not (afaik) appoint a khalifah.

Only those who are knowledgable in Qur'aan and Sunnah, and those who Judge according to the Qur'aan. In this regard, a Khalifah is appointed.
Democracy is simply the process whereby a group vote for that leader. There is a lot of leeway on who those people doing the voting are, so the democratic process was indeed in place at the voting of the Khalifah.

However, I understand with the moral implications of the characters who get voted into power in the modern world. But again, that doesn ot make voting haram and to label it as such, you must provide evidence from the Quran and Sunnah. The evidence we have, points in the opposite direction to what you believe.
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fschmidt
10-02-2016, 05:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Born_Believer
I'm curious to know when America was a moral country.
The loss of morality has been gradual, probably starting from the late 1800s. But I would say America was still somewhat moral until about 2000. Now it is totally immoral.

And if you're still living in America, then you should become a more active part of American society, in particular the political side of things, so you could make a genuine difference.
I honestly don't see the point. If the people are okay and the system is corrupt, one can make a difference. But when the people are corrupt, I think it is hopeless.
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anatolian
10-02-2016, 07:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt
The loss of morality has been gradual, probably starting from the late 1800s. But I would say America was still somewhat moral until about 2000. Now it is totally immoral.


I honestly don't see the point. If the people are okay and the system is corrupt, one can make a difference. But when the people are corrupt, I think it is hopeless.
Hello. I dont know if you have ever done this before but could you please define your understanding of corruption of the society and why you consider the AMerican society today corrupt? What you find in most of Americans corrupt and makes you think impossible to live together? Regards..
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anatolian
10-02-2016, 07:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
The way they were elected is not the way of Democracy.

Democracy as it is known today "rule by the people" is shirk.

They were elected and judged by judging them from the book of Allah.
Yes today's modern Democracy has such a strict definition and yes secular democracy is not something within Islam but we are simply talking about "voting". You said voting is haram and I say the first and "real" Khalifas were elected by some people. We can approach to the subject from this angle and can not simply say "voting is haram". Voting, electing the ruler is pretty an Islamic way of succesion of the ruler. The ruling should be according to Islam is a different subject. Also, dont think by voting you legitimate the un-Islamic system because when you vote you will vote for the "most" Islamic candidate and by not doing this you will evantually cause the "most" unIslamic candidate rule the country with the most unIslamic way. The example of this in AMerica is Hilary Clington since Donald Trump is going to be just a nightmare for the Muslims in America. Can you understand the point?
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anatolian
10-02-2016, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
The answer, sister, is that the Arabs did not recognise the Ottomans as being a Khilaafah.

Was-Salaam.
This was sonething which developed in the 19th century. There was only one reson for it, nationalism.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-02-2016, 09:04 PM
No. Shaykh Muhammad ibn `Abdil Wahhaab was born in 1703 CE, and he rejected them. He had not done so on account of nationalism. With him, it was an issue of `Aqeedah, Tawheed, etc. The later Arabs (the family of Saud) fought against the Ottomans on account of nationalism, yes. But they were much later. It was as early as the 1700s that IAW rejected the Ottomans.
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Karl
10-02-2016, 11:03 PM
For one thing the USA is not a democracy, it is a republic. These elections are just to keep the plebeians happy, but the nation is always being run by the patricians and nothing really changes. The Democrat party was formed by the GOP. True democracy just does not work well and was used in very low populations. It was abandoned by the Athenians after the Persians hammered them. So don't worry about Trump and Clinton as they are just puppets in a show, merely to distract the masses.
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Born_Believer
10-02-2016, 11:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt
The loss of morality has been gradual, probably starting from the late 1800s. But I would say America was still somewhat moral until about 2000. Now it is totally immoral.


I honestly don't see the point. If the people are okay and the system is corrupt, one can make a difference. But when the people are corrupt, I think it is hopeless.
You don't believe America was immoral when it went to the Philippines slaughtered thousands upon thousands of the impoverished? Was it moral when it detained every day Japanese-Americans in concentration camps? Was it moral when it slaughtered a 100 000 people with the most powerful weapon in human history? Was it moral when the American colonisers sped across America, wiping out the indigenous people? Was it moral when it reduced black people to less than animals?

I do not believe any nation has been as thoroughly embroiled in human genocide, as much as the United States, from it's conception in the 18th century to the modern world. In the age of the media, a period of some 70 years, the US has been the primary propagator of the myth of "the bogeyman". Communism, Africans, Islam and so on. We're all out to get you. Yet you're chosen by God to protect us.

In terms of your last statement, I agree that it is extremely difficult, if not nigh on impossible to change the nature of an entire people but don't give it. What does evil do when good men are silent?
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Zafran
10-02-2016, 11:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
:salam:

Seriously?

Voting is haram, afaik. Can any scholar confirm? @huzaifah ibn Adam.

Voting for whom will be the next commander to bomb Muslims................

Democracy is shirk.

And Allah :swt: knows best.
Are you serious?? so your saying that the people have zero say in who runs them? Hows that going for Asssad in Syria, or the militery rule in Egypt - or the countless monarchs in the Gulf?
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Zafran
10-02-2016, 11:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
Voting for a Khalifah is not like voting in democracy at all.

Democracy is for the people, and by the people, voting in accordance to the people. This is shirk.

In an Islamic State (afaik) one votes according to the Qur'aan and the Sunnah - to see whom is best. Democracy is not like that. And democracy is not Islamic.

In democracy people vote according to their desires and what they think is best. Giving people sovereignty, while sovereignty is for Allah alone. And His :swt: Prophet :saws1: (afaik)

So you can not say voting for a Khalifah = democracy. It is not. Since we do not vote for a Khalifah according to our desires, but the Qur'aan, and laymen can not (afaik) appoint a khalifah.

Only those who are knowledgable in Qur'aan and Sunnah, and those who Judge according to the Qur'aan. In this regard, a Khalifah is appointed.
Who decides this exactly?
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fschmidt
10-03-2016, 04:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Born_Believer
You don't believe America was immoral when it went to the Philippines slaughtered thousands upon thousands of the impoverished? Was it moral when it detained every day Japanese-Americans in concentration camps? Was it moral when it slaughtered a 100 000 people with the most powerful weapon in human history? Was it moral when the American colonisers sped across America, wiping out the indigenous people? Was it moral when it reduced black people to less than animals?

I do not believe any nation has been as thoroughly embroiled in human genocide, as much as the United States, from it's conception in the 18th century to the modern world. In the age of the media, a period of some 70 years, the US has been the primary propagator of the myth of "the bogeyman". Communism, Africans, Islam and so on. We're all out to get you. Yet you're chosen by God to protect us.

In terms of your last statement, I agree that it is extremely difficult, if not nigh on impossible to change the nature of an entire people but don't give it. What does evil do when good men are silent?
Every nation in history has killed outsiders. Islam too. The real test of morality is how members of a society treat each other, not outsiders. When members of a culture feel no moral obligation to each other, then that culture is finished.

I am not silent, I just don't my breath on lost causes. I support all moral groups including Islam and traditional Anabaptists. And I speak out in defense of these groups.
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fschmidt
10-03-2016, 04:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Hello. I dont know if you have ever done this before but could you please define your understanding of corruption of the society and why you consider the AMerican society today corrupt? What you find in most of Americans corrupt and makes you think impossible to live together? Regards..
Thanks to the current election, the modern American character is on full display. Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are truly representative of today's American people. Do I really need to say more?
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Karl
10-03-2016, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
It makes sense that ruling should be only according to the Qur'aan, the literal 100% word of Allah.

So how is a khalifah appointed? I know that they are judged by the Qur'aan and the Sunnah, whether they are fit or not.

In no way is a Khalifah appointed according to the "will of the People" or desires, this is satanism, afaik.

So how is it? And how would one go about doing it today? Or do we have no choice but to wait for Madhi r.a. who will rule by the Qur'aan and the Sunnah 100% ?
Allah appoints the Khalifah not the people. In a nut shell if you have the power and wit to make it to the top then you are qualified to rule. This is a lot harder than being elected, because you have to be the best among men in your nation. You need the support of the people but not by what you say but what you do.
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M.I.A.
10-03-2016, 10:40 PM
..i just read in another thread that good people get good leaders and bad people get bad leaders.

badly paraphrased, also forgot which thread.. so that helps.

i think we need people that give the biggest slap possible with least bruising..

and so rightful leadership was established.


...because iv worked for you before.. :| (turn of phrase)

or is that not how things work?

to be the equivalent of Marshall mathers in all questions.. not literally but "as a reference point" quote fingers.

unfortunately you cant fake that sort of authority.


and god gives the biggest slaps..

which is the hardest things to learn
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introspective
10-06-2016, 02:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
I am real.
I'll let you know when I send my absentee ballot so you can declare takfir on me. ^o)

format_quote Originally Posted by noraina
There's something just very undemocratic the way the options are limited to these two candidates.

I too, thought Bernie was one of the decent politicians out there who wouldn't be bad as the President, really unfortunate he couldn't make it.
The problem with the American system is that a good leader* is allowed to serve two terms at most. Why not another term or several (FDR served three terms) if the citizens want that leader to continue to serve?

Otherwise, the prez elections and unnecessary hubbub surrounding it nowadays is starting to become a rackket and a circus.

Americans should really go after members of Congress, especially Senators. Senators are just hired hands for lobbyists. Here's a quote from a post in a forum I was partaking:

"...don't forget all the perks members of Congress have that you don't, such as a lifetime pension at about $60,000 with tons of additional benefits, transportation at public expense during their tenure, exemption from Obamacare with healthcare for free for them, their family, and staff, with free prescription fulfillment and delivery anytime, anywhere, up to 239 days off work a year, free parking at airports, multi-million dollar allowances, freedom from insider trading laws."





*subjective to interpretation
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Born_Believer
10-07-2016, 06:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt
Every nation in history has killed outsiders. Islam too. The real test of morality is how members of a society treat each other, not outsiders. When members of a culture feel no moral obligation to each other, then that culture is finished.

I am not silent, I just don't my breath on lost causes. I support all moral groups including Islam and traditional Anabaptists. And I speak out in defense of these groups.
That is not the test for morality, if you think it is then you are only fooling yourself into allowing your nation to commit genocide, standing by the wayside and saying, "oh well, it happens".

Plus, I'd be happy for you to post, with real historical evidence, at which stage Prophet Muhammad PBUH and the 4 rightly guided Khalifah that followed, committed genocide.

Now, I think my original question was, when was the US of A, ever a moral nation?
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AnnaK
10-07-2016, 08:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Born_Believer
Now, I think my original question was, when was the US of A, ever a moral nation?
We do have morals you know. When we invaded counties like Iraq and Afghanistan (I don't support the invasions at all, but bare with me) it was to relinquish what we viewed as a lack of morals. We did it to get rid of "terror" (though I bet citizens of countries would have a different view), and we stayed because women aren't treated as people when they're refused basic education, literacy, and things we hold as basic human rights.

Whenever we do things in other countries, it's because of the idea that we think we can make a difference. Do I think we approach things wrong? Absolutely. We may act in a totalitarian matter at times (Thanks Bush), but we do it out of moral beliefs.

The United States of America, albeit with its terrible treatment of minorities, does try its best to do the morally correct thing. We aren't evil people with no morals. We have lots of morals, and although we may not enact things perfectly, we do still have a strong moral code and principle.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-07-2016, 09:13 PM
That's like breaking into a house of a person who has unmarried teenage daughters, raping them, and then telling the parents, "I thought I was doing good. I thought they were being repressed, denied their basic human rights, etc. so I just raped them as a favour to all of you. To let them experience the nice things in life. I was just granting them freedom. Liberating them. Why are you blaming me?"

That is America.
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cooterhein
10-08-2016, 01:11 AM
When I hear Trump speak, or see what he does on Twitter, I think of a child who happens to be in a man's body (but still with the tiny child hands). He seems intellectually rudderless. What I envision him doing to the office of the President is similar to this. Imagine a balloon that is filled with air but not tied off. You pinch it off, hold it up high for a moment, and then release it. Now watch it fly chaotically around the room. That is Trump's brain, as suggested by what routinely comes out of his mouth. And that's what we would be doing to the country with him in charge.

This is really not a political criticism, although that's a problem too. It's psychological. I wouldn't say the same thing about Romney, or Pence, or McCain, there's a range of ideologies there but they're all known for being level, staid politicians and speakers. The ideas of these three men run a pretty good range across the spectrum, the point is that all three of them can explain themselves in a way that's not suggestive of a mental issue.

When I see Clinton speak, it's entirely different from Trump. When I hear Hillary speak extemporaneously, I hear someone who is well informed and trying to be coherent, but also paranoid about saying something unpopular and egregiously so. But when I hear Trump speaking extemporaneously, I all too frequently hear someone who is being prompted by his own misstatements to complete a thought in a way that he hadn't planned for ahead of time. Which is to say that the thing he's now saying, doesn't reflect anything that he believed or even thought about before. But he's saying it now, because the last phrase he spoke just launched him there.

It's as though he's speaking in verse, and he's forced again and again to complete a rhyme. "I once met a man in Antietam," he might say. Now he's got to complete the thought, so "He sure was a nice European." He didn't know he was going to say European, or whatever else he might choose to rhyme with, but now he's going to the mat to defend that choice. The thing is though, he's not just riffing limericks for fun. He's applying this same sort of mentality to questions of policy, to matters of international importance, and to some crucial moral issues. It's the rhyme of ignorance, and error, and bombast.

Now, the failure of the media (in the US at least) is how almost no one (in the actual media) talks about how unbelievably empty of content, and of thought, his rhetoric is. He has said so many strange, incoherent, and dangerously crazy things that the US media seems strangely inured to it.

I do live in the United States. I plan to vote. I don't particularly like Hillary, and I'll be voting third party, but Trump is the last person I would want to see as POTUS. Even if Hillary were truly close to death, even if I knew she wouldn't make it through December and get sworn in, I would prefer President Kaine to President Trump. If it came down to a choice between Donald Trump and anyone else in the field, I would take anyone else in the field. Johnson, Bernie, Carson, Stein, Carly, Chafee, I would take any of them. If you give me a choice between Donald Trump and a completely random citizen, I would say let's take door number 2, we're going to roll the dice. And yes, I know there are so, so many terrible people in the United States who really should not be President. But even in that scenario, I think the odds are pretty good that we'd still get someone who's less frightening than Trump and less potentially dangerous.
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fschmidt
10-08-2016, 08:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Born_Believer
That is not the test for morality, if you think it is then you are only fooling yourself into allowing your nation to commit genocide, standing by the wayside and saying, "oh well, it happens".
The Old Testament full of genocide inluding the flood in Noah's time, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Midianites, Joshua's conquests, etc. The emphasis in both the Old Testament and in the Quran is one how to treat members of one's own religious community, not on how to treat outsiders. So I think both Moses's and Muhammad's morality is closer to mine than to yours.

Plus, I'd be happy for you to post, with real historical evidence, at which stage Prophet Muhammad PBUH and the 4 rightly guided Khalifah that followed, committed genocide.
I said "Islam" generally, not just early Islam. Early Islam was an unusually moral and tolerant religion.

Now, I think my original question was, when was the US of A, ever a moral nation?
Given that we define morality differently, I don't think we can discuss this.
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Born_Believer
10-09-2016, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt
The Old Testament full of genocide inluding the flood in Noah's time, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Midianites, Joshua's conquests, etc. The emphasis in both the Old Testament and in the Quran is one how to treat members of one's own religious community, not on how to treat outsiders. So I think both Moses's and Muhammad's morality is closer to mine than to yours.


I said "Islam" generally, not just early Islam. Early Islam was an unusually moral and tolerant religion.


Given that we define morality differently, I don't think we can discuss this.
I wanted to give an example of the best of us, not the worst or mediocre, which is what I'd look for in any society or religion.

And you would be very surprised by the Quran and the many verses centered around providing justice to Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

With regards to morality, just label a period when you think America was moral and we can go from there.
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Born_Believer
10-09-2016, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
We do have morals you know. When we invaded counties like Iraq and Afghanistan (I don't support the invasions at all, but bare with me) it was to relinquish what we viewed as a lack of morals. We did it to get rid of "terror" (though I bet citizens of countries would have a different view), and we stayed because women aren't treated as people when they're refused basic education, literacy, and things we hold as basic human rights.

Whenever we do things in other countries, it's because of the idea that we think we can make a difference. Do I think we approach things wrong? Absolutely. We may act in a totalitarian matter at times (Thanks Bush), but we do it out of moral beliefs.

The United States of America, albeit with its terrible treatment of minorities, does try its best to do the morally correct thing. We aren't evil people with no morals. We have lots of morals, and although we may not enact things perfectly, we do still have a strong moral code and principle.
Honestly, that sounds like a political campaign speech.

First off, I'm not saying there's 0 morals in the US. Of course not, there are bound to be good people, moral people, abhorred by the violence wrought by their government. I know some personally. So I have never doubted that. But on a national level, with regards to international laws (which the US continuously flaunts and never gets punished for), with regards to foreign policy, with regards to social and health care, with regards o minorities and so on. It's a despicable government and, on that basis, an immoral nation.

I won't go into the nuances of the wars you quoted but if you think the US went into either Afghanistan and Iraq on a moral basis, to free the people as you claim, then you must be very naive. Seriously. This is the same storyline the US used to invade the Phillipines a hundred years previously. It's the same story they used to invade Somalia and so on and so forth.

Just sticking with Afghanistan, who were they liberating exactly? The same women their bombs blew up and their soldiers tortured? Didn't the US claim it's primary reason for attacking Afghanistan was the aftermath of 9/11, the attack itself and ultimately Bin Laden? When the Taliban pushed forward with negotiations, even sending a delegation to Washington (a member of which was interviewed on Fox of all channels), why did the US refuse to meet with them and discuss a peaceful resolution? The US has always been the aggressor, the murderer of innocents.

In the modern world, with all the resources at your finger tips, I'm always surprised and often worried by those who still support the CIA fueled, media propagated narrative that the US was in some sort of righteous war.
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cooterhein
10-10-2016, 01:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Born_Believer

With regards to morality, just label a period when you think America was moral and we can go from there.
I would suggest the Marshall Plan.

I'd also point to the currency crisis which led to the necessity of the Berlin Airlift. Post World War II, the Allies (and Germany) wanted to reform the unstable and devalued Reichsmark. Russia wanted no such reform, because they wanted Germany to be weak and stay trapped in an endless recession. On purpose. This sort of attitude is understandable, after you've fought a bitter enemy for quite some time, but that is not what I would call the moral high ground.

So Russia blockaded East Berlin, and the Allies got everything there via cargo plane. Food, milk, coffee, coal, gasoline, other necessities. Russia could have technically disrupted this, but they decided not to because they didn't want more war. The blockade didn't really work, and Germany was able to rebuild its economy, no thanks to Russia's involvement and mostly thanks to the Allies in general and the US in particular.

I realize you didn't ask me, so @fschmidt , feel free to give a different example or make some comments about this one if you want.
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Karl
10-10-2016, 11:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
That's like breaking into a house of a person who has unmarried teenage daughters, raping them, and then telling the parents, "I thought I was doing good. I thought they were being repressed, denied their basic human rights, etc. so I just raped them as a favour to all of you. To let them experience the nice things in life. I was just granting them freedom. Liberating them. Why are you blaming me?"

That is America.
Of course we know the brigands are not that stupid. Their propaganda is pathetic but seems to work for the apathetic American masses. But they do have a meltdown when a brigand comes home in a body bag. That is why the need for drones. Genocide to the others but no American casualties.
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Born_Believer
10-11-2016, 08:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cooterhein
I would suggest the Marshall Plan.

I'd also point to the currency crisis which led to the necessity of the Berlin Airlift. Post World War II, the Allies (and Germany) wanted to reform the unstable and devalued Reichsmark. Russia wanted no such reform, because they wanted Germany to be weak and stay trapped in an endless recession. On purpose. This sort of attitude is understandable, after you've fought a bitter enemy for quite some time, but that is not what I would call the moral high ground.

So Russia blockaded East Berlin, and the Allies got everything there via cargo plane. Food, milk, coffee, coal, gasoline, other necessities. Russia could have technically disrupted this, but they decided not to because they didn't want more war. The blockade didn't really work, and Germany was able to rebuild its economy, no thanks to Russia's involvement and mostly thanks to the Allies in general and the US in particular.

I realize you didn't ask me, so @fschmidt , feel free to give a different example or make some comments about this one if you want.
You're quoting isolated incidents from a highly biased historical view point. But let's say I agree with the post war Germany narrative, the same America that was allowing Germans food, was blocking blacks in their own country from using the same damn toilets as them. How is that moral? The US' involvement in Germany was not moralistic, it was purely financial, to create a buffer between east and west and a pro US society. I could go on and on about more of what was happening in the US at the time, for example the abuse of Japanese nationals and the propagation of a private and entirely unfair healthcare system.
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cooterhein
10-11-2016, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Born_Believer
You're quoting isolated incidents from a highly biased historical view point. But let's say I agree with the post war Germany narrative, the same America that was allowing Germans food, was blocking blacks in their own country from using the same damn toilets as them. How is that moral?
Jim Crow laws certainly were not moral, and I did give an example from a time period where that was still in effect. I don't wish to hijack this line of discussion and take it away from fschmidt; I thought I had something potentially useful to share but after reading your initial post more attentively I can see you were looking for a span of time where everything was pretty well locked in. This is something that relates more exclusively to foreign policy and not domestic, and it's not what you were looking for after all. That's my fault, and I'll see if fschmidt would like to come back to this.

The US' involvement in Germany was not moralistic, it was purely financial, to create a buffer between east and west and a pro US society.
To this specific point, I must disagree. There's no reason why it can't be both. I'm going to give you a link to look at, it includes a rather extensive quotation of George C. Marshall speaking at Harvard University about his plan and the reasons for going through with it.
http://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/democrac/57.htm
Now, this is a source that does explicitly acknowledge that the plan satisfied those who demanded realpolitik and for whom that was their exclusive driving force, but it also says it satisfied the generous and idealistic point of view as well. It's like I'm telling you, why can't it be both? Now, please do me a favor and take a look at what Marshall has to say for himself, then tell me where he seems to be coming from. Do you really think he's lying and putting on a show? Do you think he's lying about his sense of morality, when the Only real motivator is money and power? Come on, it's not as if he's delivering propaganda to the general public. He's explaining something in a good bit of detail at Harvard. He's talking to brilliant people who will politely pick him apart, and this is the type of judgment to which he is submitting his ideas. So with that in mind, kindly take a look at what he actually has to say.

I could go on and on about more of what was happening in the US at the time, for example the abuse of Japanese nationals and the propagation of a private and entirely unfair healthcare system.
These are all very good points, and none of those other things speak well of the US during this period of time. I did give an example from a time period that was not very good in a lot of other ways, and now I have a better idea of the sort of thing you were looking for. It's not the 40's and 50's.
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