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hisnameiszzz
09-27-2016, 09:34 PM
So what are everyone's thoughts on Muslim grooming gangs and paedophiles?

It's something that everyone shies away from home but I need a bit of clarification.

A while ago I posted about the convicted groomer / paedophile who got locked up and then supposedly changed his ways and became a super Muslim and started giving adhaan and being best mates with the head Imam. I voiced my concerns about this because the Mosque is next to the Madrasah and I was personally disgusted they allowed him to be that close to young children. Folk were telling me to stop being so judgemental on here which I took on the chin and shut up.

Breaking news today. He has been grooming repeatedly and was locked up for almost 20 years today. 3 of his friends, all Muslims, in my immediate area were also locked up totalling 50 years.

I work with young adults who suffer from child sexual exploitation. All the perpetrators are Muslims. I've been asked repeatedly by colleagues if this is normal. I used to defend Islam and say they were just weird people but I'm getting more and more riled by it.

The other man who normally gives Adhaan was locked up about a year ago for grooming and doing things with kids. He too was very good friends with the head Imam.

Is attacking kids and grooming something that is accepted in Islam? Is this normal? Why is the head Imam really good friends with both these men? Have I completely missed something?

Should I report to Social Services? The Mosque and the committee have a duty of care to these vulnerable young children. Everyone in the area knows about what the beast was doing in the past. It was in all the local papers. It's almost like it is condoned.
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*charisma*
09-27-2016, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
Is attacking kids and grooming something that is accepted in Islam?
What kind of question is that? lol



Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
The Mosque and the committee have a duty of care to these vulnerable young children.
The parents have a bigger responsibility to protect and teach their kids about these types of issues.

Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
Everyone in the area knows about what the beast was doing in the past. It was in all the local papers. It's almost like it is condoned.
Again, why would parents allow their kids to be near these type of people if they knew all about it?


Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
Why is the head Imam really good friends with both these men? Have I completely missed something?
Ask him?
Reply

hisnameiszzz
09-27-2016, 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
The parents have a bigger responsibility to protect and teach their kids about these types of issues.
So you expect parents to vet and research people who may have access to madressahs because it is their responsibility? And not the committee and board to vet these people? Eh?
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M.I.A.
09-27-2016, 10:10 PM
phone them..

ask for an email address.

enter correspondence with them.


go talk to imam first..

see if he gives you a slap.


dont worry about it..

if they dont let you clean someone elses street.. how you going to clean your own?


background checks should be the norm..

see the state of a persons prayer before dealing with them.


i dunno? Maybe the imam was fbi?
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hisnameiszzz
09-27-2016, 10:25 PM
I probably would get slapped. He is the head Imam. He is / was the only one I had respect for. If I am walking past him I would put my topi on properly and cover my hair completely kind of thing.

What does fbi mean?
Reply

M.I.A.
09-27-2016, 10:28 PM
how did he get caught?

..keched
Reply

*charisma*
09-27-2016, 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
So you expect parents to vet and research people who may have access to madressahs because it is their responsibility? And not the committee and board to vet these people? Eh?
Absolutely. The school has a responsibility in who it hires and the parents have a responsibility of communicating safety to their kids as well as researching who is considered unfit to be around their child. But didn't you say that everyone in the community knew about these individuals?? If that was the case then who's at fault here?

I don't know about the UK, but in the US there is a data system that includes every convicted sexual predator and his/her address. Neighbors are also notified that this person is living in the neighborhood. Of course that goes without saying that there may be sexual predators around who are not convicted, and in which case this is where the parents' communication with their children is key. If this is a common problem in the community, there there should be some activism going on to prevent these situations from happening.
Reply

Mustafa16
09-27-2016, 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
I probably would get slapped. He is the head Imam. He is / was the only one I had respect for. If I am walking past him I would put my topi on properly and cover my hair completely kind of thing.

What does fbi mean?
FBI stands for federal bureau of investigation, an American police agency that deals with federal crime
Reply

Born_Believer
09-27-2016, 10:36 PM
My views?

Well let's see, they are the same as my views on white, black, Asian, orange, Hindu, Christian, Atheist, Jew, Martian pedophiles and gangs.

Why is the fact that he is Muslims so important to you? And more importantly, why must it relate to the religion he clearly isn't following?

The man is quite clearly a criminal, a bad person, an animal even but why is his identity such an issue, when the majority of such stories are to do with white males (similar to serial killers). WHy aren't there headlines about WHITE PEDOPHILES? I literally have never seen a racially motivated article or headline with regards to people like Jimmy Saville.

With regards to your very specific example of the local imam befriending the person, I guess we just take your word for it? What I can believe and even understand is that the imam likely felt the man deserved a second chance, doesn't everyone under British law? Also, some of the points you are making doesn't quite fit the idea of someone...you know, who understand Islam. That's as delicately as I can put it.
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Born_Believer
09-27-2016, 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
Absolutely. The school has a responsibility in who it hires and the parents have a responsibility of communicating safety to their kids as well as researching who is considered unfit to be around their child. But didn't you say that everyone in the community knew about these individuals?? If that was the case then who's at fault here?

I don't know about the UK, but in the US there is a data system that includes every convicted sexual predator and his/her address. Neighbors are also notified that this person is living in the neighborhood. Of course that goes without saying that there may be sexual predators around who are not convicted, and in which case this is where the parents' communication with their children is key. If this is a common problem in the community, there there should be some activism going on to prevent these situations from happening.
I highly doubt everyone in the community knew about this, considering there the guy would get soundly beaten by the locals. Plus, in the UK, people on the sex offenders register are oft times given new identities so it is highly unlikely people knew about him anyway and it's even more unlikely a convicted pedophile would be allowed back into the same community where he committed the crime.

There's something about this whole thread that doesn't sit well.
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Search
09-27-2016, 10:53 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

Thank you for your questions and concern, brother; they are very important, and I will address your questions in a detailed manner in this post God-willing.

I absolutely dislike the behavior and what I've read about Muslim grooming gangs and pedophiles. In regards to the Muslim grooming gangs, something I'd like to mention is that these men equate Western white non-Muslim women as easy prey because culturally they're seen as somehow more "loose." I've said this before on IB, but it bears repeating that I had many Western white non-Muslim women as friends in college and they were virgins and not "loose" women; many of them were waiting for marriage to lose their virginity.

However, some Muslim men, due to being born in cultures that have the perception that "you are as you dress", believe that women who dress immodestly are somehow asking for "it" and I hope I don't need to define for anyone what "it" is. This perception is disgusting, heinous, and monstrous; and I have to say that this view is entirely outside of the bounds of Islam. In this case, as happens in many cases with human beings, women are viewed through the lens of culture instead of Islam; in Islam, women are honored beings with the right to their own personhood, whether Muslim and non-Muslim and to dishonor a non-Muslim in any way is to dishonor Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) because Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said that he would be their advocate on Judgment Day. The hadith (prophetic tradition) is as follows: Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him), “Beware! I will be complainant of those who act cruelly and heartlessly to these people (who are bound by agreement) and restrict their rights or who load a work over what they can sustain or take away something out of their will, on the Day of Judgment.”

Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) also warned us as follows: “Beware of the supplication of the oppressed, for it is carried above the clouds. Allah the Exalted says: 'By my might and majesty, I will help you in due time.'”

Finally, while I do believe that an individual is free to repent of his/her sins in private, no person should be allowed to hold positions of trust once he's betrayed public trust. We know from the Seerah (biography) that Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) that one of the reasons his prophethood was accepted in due time is because he was known in pagan Arabia as the "Al-Amin" ("The Trustworthy"). How can we as Muslims ever allow someone to be in position of authority when that person has betrayed public trust? It is insupportable.

I work in a similar field to you except I've litigated child abuse cases (wide variety range) so that the children are taken away from their parents and instead placed in guardianship of responsible persons as determined by state and easily available that will be the cause of least disruption to child's life whether that is a relative or a close friend of the family or as a last resort in foster care.

I heard in a lecture of a convert Muslim Dr. Jeffery Lang that 6 convert women who complained of sexual harassment from the married Imam of Islamic Center in San Francisco were believed by the mosque hearing committee to just be "prostitutes" and other demeaning things were said about these women.

So, now, to answer your questions:

Is attacking kids and grooming something that is accepted in Islam?
No. That said, I've read news articles from Western media sources of various Imams having said ridiculous things like that the uncovered women are like meat and other nonsensical comparisons that would somehow mean that they invited rape. This is a hideous thing to think, forget saying out loud, and we should educate our Imams on the importance of not making loose statements like that that could be interpreted as justification for rape. Because there is NO justification for rape. I think we can educate Muslim women on the importance of dressing modestly without seeming to attack modes of dressing which are not modest in the West.

As far as attacking kids is concerned, that is disgusting. Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “He is not from us who does not show mercy to the young and does not honor the old.” What could be more merciful to the young than to let them retain their childhood and not be despoiled.

Is this normal?
No, it is not normal to want to rob the innocence of young children.

However, I would note what I was told by a woman who'd come to our law school who works with sexual offenders to try to rehabilitate them that while attraction to youth is natural which is why Taylor Lautner, Twilight movie series star, even as a minor had older women throwing their underwear at him and making overt sexual advances.

However, sexual offenders who recognize themselves as pedophiles are primarily or exclusively attracted to prepubescent children. And their attraction is not simply to youth but to children who cannot maturely understand or reciprocate those sexual desires

Before anyone brings in comparisons of Prophet's :saws: marriage to Aisha :ra: (may God be pleased with her), let's remember that such marriages were common in Arabian society and Aisha :ra: was engaged to another man before she ever married Prophet :saws: and Prophet :saws: saw her in a divinely inspired dream three times indicating Allah's Will for them to marry. Also, she never once even when Prophet :saws: was dead complained about her marriage with him but rather cherished the time she had with him on earth as his honored wife and her life as an Islamic scholar testified to her holding his sayings, mannerisms, and values dear.

Why is the head Imam really good friends with both these men? Have I completely missed something?
I don't think the Imam should revile someone from seeking his help or advice even if they have criminal pasts; however, the Imam should not bring his friendship into public view. Usually, the appearance of impropriety is more damaging than impropriety itself. And therefore, he should have not held himself in close contact with these men in a way that would make it seem to the community (including you) that he tacitly approves of these men's reprehensible behavior.

Should I report to Social Services?
If you know about criminal behavior, you are under no obligation to protect any person (Muslim or not) because to be a pacifist in the face of wrongdoing is to become a wrongdoer as well. Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said that we should help the oppressor by "[B]y restraining him or preventing him from committing injustice, for that is how you support him.”

And yes, you are right to be angry because you're angry on behalf of victims which even if they're non-Muslim also count as "Allah's family" because Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “The entire humanity is Allah’s family, and Allah loves him most from among this family, who benefits the family most.” And Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) also said, “The best from among you is the one from whom you expect the good and people are safe from his mischief. And the worst from among you is the one from whom you don’t expect any good and people are not safe from his mischief.”

Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
So what are everyone's thoughts on Muslim grooming gangs and paedophiles?

It's something that everyone shies away from home but I need a bit of clarification.

A while ago I posted about the convicted groomer / paedophile who got locked up and then supposedly changed his ways and became a super Muslim and started giving adhaan and being best mates with the head Imam. I voiced my concerns about this because the Mosque is next to the Madrasah and I was personally disgusted they allowed him to be that close to young children. Folk were telling me to stop being so judgemental on here which I took on the chin and shut up.

Breaking news today. He has been grooming repeatedly and was locked up for almost 20 years today. 3 of his friends, all Muslims, in my immediate area were also locked up totalling 50 years.

I work with young adults who suffer from child sexual exploitation. All the perpetrators are Muslims. I've been asked repeatedly by colleagues if this is normal. I used to defend Islam and say they were just weird people but I'm getting more and more riled by it.

The other man who normally gives Adhaan was locked up about a year ago for grooming and doing things with kids. He too was very good friends with the head Imam.

Is attacking kids and grooming something that is accepted in Islam? Is this normal? Why is the head Imam really good friends with both these men? Have I completely missed something?

Should I report to Social Services? The Mosque and the committee have a duty of care to these vulnerable young children. Everyone in the area knows about what the beast was doing in the past. It was in all the local papers. It's almost like it is condoned.

Oh my God. I'm so angry and confused.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
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Pygoscelis
09-27-2016, 10:57 PM
Am I the only one who read "Muslim Grooming Gang" and thought of a group of stylish Muslim hair stylists and beard trimmers?
Reply

Search
09-27-2016, 11:00 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
So you expect parents to vet and research people who may have access to madressahs because it is their responsibility? And not the committee and board to vet these people? Eh?
I differ with sis @*charisma* on the issue because I believe the primary responsibility to vet people in positions of authority are the committee and board members; parents are not exempt from responsibility, but it is easy to see why parents would believe that the mosques have their business in order and would not allow any sexual offenders to be in positions of power or authority over any vulnerable children. Let's please not become akin to the Catholic Church; and let's stand up for justice, even if it is against specific individuals from within our Muslim brethren because we do not do them any services when we allow them to continue perpetrating injustices in any garb, whether that of an ordinary person or of an Imam.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
09-27-2016, 11:36 PM
Originally Posted by Search
Why is the head Imam really good friends with both these men? Have I completely missed something?
I don't think the Imam should revile someone from seeking his help or advice even if they have criminal pasts; however, the Imam should not bring his friendship into public view. Usually, the appearance of impropriety is more damaging than impropriety itself. And therefore, he should have not held himself in close contact with these men in a way that would make it seem to the community (including you) that he tacitly approves of these men's reprehensible behavior.
A question for you, sister.

Do you have the same opinion about an Imaam befriending homosexuals? Should he, too, not let it be known to the public, as you suggest with the paedophile? And if you say no, then why not?

Was-Salaam.
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anatolian
09-28-2016, 12:03 AM
Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
So what are everyone's thoughts on Muslim grooming gangs and paedophiles?
It is not unique to Islam. Many Catholic priests were charged of pedophilia a few years ago. More people are using religion as a shield for their perversion each day all over the world. Why dont you ask that Imam that why he is befriending with such a guy?
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Search
09-28-2016, 12:09 AM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
A question for you, sister.

Do you have the same opinion about an Imaam befriending homosexuals? Should he, too, not let it be known to the public, as you suggest with the paedophile? And if you say no, then why not?

Was-Salaam.
I'm not sure what you mean here? If an Imam befriends anyone who formerly identified (but in the present-day rehabilitated) as either homosexual, prostitutes, drug addicts, pedophiles with the intent to help them stay rehabilitated, there is nothing that would proscribe that friendship because anything formed with a benign intent to encourage anyone on the path of goodness as exhorted in the Quran can only be said to be praiseworthy. However, the Imam should do these things out of the public view to avoid any sullying of his own reputation because then people might wrongly interpret that he himself condones or participates in these activities (even if the sinful activities of the openly reformed sinner are only in the past). The morale of his congregation would undoubtedly go down if such contact is maintained in public view and also creates doubts in the minds of brothers like @hisnameiszzz who then question why the Imam should have such a close friendship with former criminals.

My problem is not the public nature of the friendship itself of the head Imam with the "reformed" pedophile because at the end that is the Imam's own personal choice but then he should expect questions of his own character and reasoning and maybe a future police investigation into his own actions. My problem is with the "reformed" pedophile having gotten in a position of any type of authority when the Imam knew the individual may come into close contact with children because he should have known to prevent the other individual from getting an opportunity to re-offend. No one who's betrayed public trust should be allowed to come into authority in a way that would give them opportunities again to re-offend even if we're 100% sure they're rehabilitated. Of course, these persons are free to repent on their time for their sins to Allah, and Allah forgives all sins except shirk (idolatry); however, that is a separate matter. My point is these individuals should not be given any authority or power that would allow them to perpetrate the same/similar wrongdoing.

However, if anyone is perpetrating any present-day activity violating the laws of the land, then the Imam is under no obligation to protect the person and instead should report the criminal wrongdoing to the police or any appropriate authority as soon as possible; the rights of the community to remain safe from the criminal activity supersede the right of the known rehabilitated individual to be able to be in or retain a position of authority.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Reply

Search
09-28-2016, 02:22 AM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


@hisnameiszzz

By the way, I know why some people replied defensively to you even if I disagree with them on specific points. Your thread title has "Muslim" attached to the topic of grooming gangs and pedophiles even though I know it makes sense to you as you're reading this topic specifically from your point of view as a member of your mosque's congregation and Muslim community; however, I think the title reinforces certain prejudices that non-Muslims might have about Muslim men when this type of evil is not a "Muslim" problem and puts Muslim members who probably have no knowledge of such wrongdoings in their own Muslim community feel vilified and broadbrushed and put on the defensive.

So, for those who want to feel vindicated and also for you, I do want to say that I've talked to social workers who have been exposed to children being rescued from non-Muslim mall grooming gangs in U.S.; not to mention that pedophiles are not unique to any race, culture, or religion but come in all types. And yes, there are human sexual trafficking rings in U.S. linked to organized crime, and the criminals are non-Muslim. Also, rape culture is a phenomena most prevalent in fraternities and sororities in the U.S. and also commonly found in any sports environment (whether high school, college, professional).

The solution I strongly believe is that no matter where in the world, all men should be educated to value women independently of their sexual value and learn to not objectify them, which pornography so obviously does; in fact, truth be told, I am a very strong proponent of all-male peer led education programs about rape because one such study of a predominantly white population showed that after just one hour of education on sexual assault, "men were both less likely to believe myths about rape or consider being sexually coercive."

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
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kritikvernunft
09-28-2016, 04:31 AM
Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
Should I report to Social Services? The Mosque and the committee have a duty of care to these vulnerable young children.
You see, these populations now wholesale reject the traditional way of protecting women and children, which means that we don't anymore. Everybody will always get what they asked for, especially, when it is not what they actually want. That is also why we are not doing anything at all. In fact, they don't even want us to do something. So, what do you think that we are doing now? Exactly, nothing, and that is the way it should be.
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muslim brother
09-28-2016, 02:39 PM
muslim men have got to become men again..like the sahabah r.a..

not cultural,or tribal,or political and begging for popularity and recognition

speak the truth and do the right thing even if it is against your ownself,family or community

we ally with truth and justice...inshallah
Reply

hisnameiszzz
09-28-2016, 06:25 PM
OK! So I hold my hands up, the title was wrong of me but I was a bit worked up last night. Apologies in advance. But on the same token, I am not defending athiests/catholics/jews/hindus at work, so to be quite frank, why should I mention them. I used to identify myself as Muslim (I'm in limbo currently). My colleagues ask me about Islam (I don't go advertising I am having a crisis with my faith to the whole world). As I have explained, I work with vulnerable young adults and 99% of the time, the groomers/sex attackers are Muslims, so I get asked why and if Islam condones it. It gets a bit tiring after a while saying the same thing over and over again. Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are others too but the ones that come up are always Muslims. I get asked about Islam and Muslims, so that is why I mentioned them specifically in the title. I'm not an Islam basher, I don't have time for that.

Originally Posted by *charisma*
Absolutely. The school has a responsibility in who it hires and the parents have a responsibility of communicating safety to their kids as well as researching who is considered unfit to be around their child. But didn't you say that everyone in the community knew about these individuals?? If that was the case then who's at fault here?

I don't know about the UK, but in the US there is a data system that includes every convicted sexual predator and his/her address. Neighbors are also notified that this person is living in the neighborhood. Of course that goes without saying that there may be sexual predators around who are not convicted, and in which case this is where the parents' communication with their children is key. If this is a common problem in the community, there there should be some activism going on to prevent these situations from happening.
In the UK, organisations have the CRB / DBS check. Before someone can work for an organisation that deals with vulnerable young people or adults (or anyone these days to be honest), they have to apply for the check. It is the organisations' responsibility to have these checks done. So if a sex offender wanted to work in a nursery, the school would have the checks done and the sex offender would get told no. I'm not sure how parents would do these checks. Would you expect the name of each and every single person that had access to the school, so the parents could check on some kind of database somewhere? I'm confused.

My point is the beast was in the newspapers before he was sent to jail. When he came out, he might have been a changed man, but surely the committee should have politely said come to the Mosque but please don't give Adhaan or am I just being ridiculous there? I say this because the Mosque and Madrassah are adjoined by a door and anyone can go from the Mosque to the Madrassah at anytime. There are no CCTV cameras. Surely, it's a bit risky right?


That's strange in the US. If someone genuinely made a mistake and was classed as a sex offender, all their neighbours would know about it? Crikey! In the UK, there is the sex offender register and the authorities know, but the person is not advertised to neighbours. For sure, they would not be rehoused near a school and they would have to go into a probation centre where they would be taught about what they should tell to others and whom they can have relationships with, e.g. if someone has a young child, they can't be in a relationship with them if they have attacked kids in the past.

Originally Posted by Born_Believer
Why is the fact that he is Muslims so important to you? And more importantly, why must it relate to the religion he clearly isn't following?

The man is quite clearly a criminal, a bad person, an animal even but why is his identity such an issue, when the majority of such stories are to do with white males (similar to serial killers). WHy aren't there headlines about WHITE PEDOPHILES? I literally have never seen a racially motivated article or headline with regards to people like Jimmy Saville.

With regards to your very specific example of the local imam befriending the person, I guess we just take your word for it? What I can believe and even understand is that the imam likely felt the man deserved a second chance, doesn't everyone under British law? Also, some of the points you are making doesn't quite fit the idea of someone...you know, who understand Islam. That's as delicately as I can put it.
It's important to me because I have a Muslim name and people at work relate to me as being a Muslim. They ask questions. "Oh another Muslim sex offender, I thought you said it was against Islam?". It gets a bit boring after repeating the same thing again and again. I mentioned Muslim to garner views of people on here. Sorry to have upset you.

Nothing will ever be said about Jimmy Saville, the Queen knighted him didn't she. Most of the other paedophiles were knighted too. You do the math!

Your last sentence hits it on the head. I used to follow Islam completely, but I am completely baffled by it now. All the kitaabs I prayed as a child seem to completely be the opposite of what happens in real life. But let's not go there shall we. Oh and thank you to UMM ABED and AISHA for being two genuine sisters in Islam who have kept in touch and tried to keep me sane. I do appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Born_Believer
I highly doubt everyone in the community knew about this, considering there the guy would get soundly beaten by the locals. Plus, in the UK, people on the sex offenders register are oft times given new identities so it is highly unlikely people knew about him anyway and it's even more unlikely a convicted pedophile would be allowed back into the same community where he committed the crime.

There's something about this whole thread that doesn't sit well.
Why would anyone beat the sex offender up? He was grooming white girls. The area I live in is 99.99% not white. It was in all the local newspapers and no one did a thing! His loving wife too him back too. He even worked in the local corner shop, lol.

I live in a community where people getting locked up for fraud / drugs are classed as heroes, where people are blind when they are in town and outside, but miraculously get their sight back in the Mosque. In an ideal world, where Islam (the one I learnt about from kitaabs such as Hadhrat Umar/Abu Bakar/Deen KeBatey) was prevalent, then yeah, this guy would not show his face here again.

Sex offenders do NOT get any identities. If that was the case, quite a lot of the people in Rochdale would have new names. Maybe one or two really high profile sex offenders might get new identities.
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hisnameiszzz
09-28-2016, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by anatolian
It is not unique to Islam. Many Catholic priests were charged of pedophilia a few years ago. More people are using religion as a shield for their perversion each day all over the world. Why dont you ask that Imam that why he is befriending with such a guy?
You are completely right there but the head Imam is the only Imam I genuinely have any respect for. I don't want to have my bubble burst if he says "Oh I knew all about it all along".

I have no issues with the Imam befriending anyone. However, when both the men who used to give Adhaan are locked up for the same offence and both are on very good terms with the Imam even after serving sentences each, it does make your mind wonder doesn't it. Well it did mine. But then I might just be disturbed.




Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
A question for you, sister.

Do you have the same opinion about an Imaam befriending homosexuals? Should he, too, not let it be known to the public, as you suggest with the paedophile? And if you say no, then why not?

Was-Salaam.


I'll answer on behalf of th
e sister.


Homosexuals are not allowed in the Muslim community. If someone comes out, that's it, they have to pack their bags and leave. Families beat them up, the locals beat them up. I work with vulnerable young adults, I have seen this. People have had to move from London to the Midlands to get away from their family/community. I highly doubt an Imam would strike up a friendship with someone who had officially come out. The person would not be in the community any longer. There was a programme on the BBC website about Islam and homosexuality. Imams were condemning it saying it was completely wrong. Anyway, that's completely different.

Originally Posted by AHMED PATEL
muslim men have got to become men again..like the sahabah r.a..

not cultural,or tribal,or political and begging for popularity and recognition

speak the truth and do the right thing even if it is against your ownself,family or community

we ally with truth and justice...inshallah
In an ideal world, yes, but this is real life.

You are from Dewsbury. Have a look at the Dewsbury Reporter tomorrow and you might know what I am talking about re: the grooming gangs. Look at the surname of the 2 main culprits. I was asked by a colleague today - "isn't that name you are called when you have been to Mecca?". :phew:phew:phew
Reply

Search
09-28-2016, 07:08 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


Why would anyone beat the sex offender up? He was grooming white girls. The area I live in is 99.99% not white. It was in all the local newspapers and no one did a thing! His loving wife too him back too. He even worked in the local corner shop, lol.
And that is the crux of the problem. Islam takes a backseat and culture takes a front seat. I'm sad to say that many seem to only want to stand up for justice when it's against what they perceive as their own ethnicity or race or culture and not the "other." And that is probably because these girls due to their white skin are perceived as the "other", not generally worthy of the consideration or time to get worked over because they're not their own girls. Even though Islam forbids racism, Muslims due to their cultural mindsets are many times both racist and ethnocentric. If Muslims don't stand up for injustices perpetrated against non-Muslims, then Muslims should not expect non-Muslims to stand up for injustices against them either. When Muslims let others in their community get away with wrongdoing of which they are aware, then they become complicit in the wrongdoing and are wrongdoers themselves. Muslims should then not complain about Islamophobic articles in tabloids that come about "Muslim" grooming gangs. In effect, what happens is that Muslims' wide inaction actually contributes to the problem spreading and then comes back as the fruit of their own wrongdoing in the form of demonization of Muslims and Islam in the media to which they then object. Would this happen if Muslims actually, truly, and really listened to the advice in the Quran (4:135) and did what it tells us to do?

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.

So, just for next time, I'd ask Muslims here and elsewhere to stand up for minorities wherever they are within their communities or elsewhere and stand up against any perceived injustice anywhere. You owe it to God to do so.

I live in a community where people getting locked up for fraud / drugs are classed as heroes, where people are blind when they are in town and outside, but miraculously get their sight back in the Mosque. In an ideal world, where Islam (the one I learnt about from kitaabs such as Hadhrat Umar/Abu Bakar/Deen KeBatey) was prevalent, then yeah, this guy would not show his face here again.
Yes, well, that is why I always tell new Muslims that they should understand that while Islam is perfect the Muslim communities globally are imperfect. Please, brother, do not take reprehensible behaviors of Muslims as representative of what they should be doing as Muslims. And I agree with you that there's a disconnect between what Islam teaches and asks us as Muslims to do and what Muslims generally accept as things to do from points of view born from their culture. I know you've said that you have a crisis of faith, but others don't know that and so you yourself can take the lead in these matters; don't expect others to do so. Since you feel strongly enough about this matter as you've shown here on this thread, take the lead and create a hullabaloo in the mosque to get this type of thing to be communicated as unacceptable from the pulpit on Fridays. Pass out flyers about why turning a blind eye to wrongdoing is wrong from the Quran and ahadith (prophetic traditions). Don't leave it to others to do; do your own part. Others in seeing you do so may then themselves get the courage or if previously apathetic may become awakened to the wrongness of this and also then contribute their voices and efforts to eradicate this type of injustice. But it has to start with you, remember.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Reply

Born_Believer
09-28-2016, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
OK! So I hold my hands up, the title was wrong of me but I was a bit worked up last night. Apologies in advance. But on the same token, I am not defending athiests/catholics/jews/hindus at work, so to be quite frank, why should I mention them. I used to identify myself as Muslim (I'm in limbo currently). My colleagues ask me about Islam (I don't go advertising I am having a crisis with my faith to the whole world). As I have explained, I work with vulnerable young adults and 99% of the time, the groomers/sex attackers are Muslims, so I get asked why and if Islam condones it. It gets a bit tiring after a while saying the same thing over and over again. Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are others too but the ones that come up are always Muslims. I get asked about Islam and Muslims, so that is why I mentioned them specifically in the title. I'm not an Islam basher, I don't have time for that.



In the UK, organisations have the CRB / DBS check. Before someone can work for an organisation that deals with vulnerable young people or adults (or anyone these days to be honest), they have to apply for the check. It is the organisations' responsibility to have these checks done. So if a sex offender wanted to work in a nursery, the school would have the checks done and the sex offender would get told no. I'm not sure how parents would do these checks. Would you expect the name of each and every single person that had access to the school, so the parents could check on some kind of database somewhere? I'm confused.

My point is the beast was in the newspapers before he was sent to jail. When he came out, he might have been a changed man, but surely the committee should have politely said come to the Mosque but please don't give Adhaan or am I just being ridiculous there? I say this because the Mosque and Madrassah are adjoined by a door and anyone can go from the Mosque to the Madrassah at anytime. There are no CCTV cameras. Surely, it's a bit risky right?


That's strange in the US. If someone genuinely made a mistake and was classed as a sex offender, all their neighbours would know about it? Crikey! In the UK, there is the sex offender register and the authorities know, but the person is not advertised to neighbours. For sure, they would not be rehoused near a school and they would have to go into a probation centre where they would be taught about what they should tell to others and whom they can have relationships with, e.g. if someone has a young child, they can't be in a relationship with them if they have attacked kids in the past.



It's important to me because I have a Muslim name and people at work relate to me as being a Muslim. They ask questions. "Oh another Muslim sex offender, I thought you said it was against Islam?". It gets a bit boring after repeating the same thing again and again. I mentioned Muslim to garner views of people on here. Sorry to have upset you.

Nothing will ever be said about Jimmy Saville, the Queen knighted him didn't she. Most of the other paedophiles were knighted too. You do the math!

Your last sentence hits it on the head. I used to follow Islam completely, but I am completely baffled by it now. All the kitaabs I prayed as a child seem to completely be the opposite of what happens in real life. But let's not go there shall we. Oh and thank you to UMM ABED and AISHA for being two genuine sisters in Islam who have kept in touch and tried to keep me sane. I do appreciate it.



Why would anyone beat the sex offender up? He was grooming white girls. The area I live in is 99.99% not white. It was in all the local newspapers and no one did a thing! His loving wife too him back too. He even worked in the local corner shop, lol.

I live in a community where people getting locked up for fraud / drugs are classed as heroes, where people are blind when they are in town and outside, but miraculously get their sight back in the Mosque. In an ideal world, where Islam (the one I learnt about from kitaabs such as Hadhrat Umar/Abu Bakar/Deen KeBatey) was prevalent, then yeah, this guy would not show his face here again.

Sex offenders do NOT get any identities. If that was the case, quite a lot of the people in Rochdale would have new names. Maybe one or two really high profile sex offenders might get new identities.
If your co-workers are asking you about muslim sex offenders, why don't you ask them to take ownership of every single white/christian/atheist sex offender? They do make up over 80% of the prison population in there for sexual offences. How about asking them to explain Jimmy Saville, quite possibly the most vile and large scale sex offender in human history. Grow a spine man.

And I know for a fact that in Britain certain sex offenders are helped with new identities, many of whom are also moved into new areas. There was a hacking leak just a couple years back with the new names and identities of sex offenders.

You seem to have an awfully low level of care or respect for your own community and seemingly insinuate something like this would not happen in a white area?
Reply

*charisma*
09-28-2016, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)




I differ with sis @*charisma* on the issue because I believe the primary responsibility to vet people in positions of authority are the committee and board members; parents are not exempt from responsibility, but it is easy to see why parents would believe that the mosques have their business in order and would not allow any sexual offenders to be in positions of power or authority over any vulnerable children. Let's please not become akin to the Catholic Church; and let's stand up for justice, even if it is against specific individuals from within our Muslim brethren because we do not do them any services when we allow them to continue perpetrating injustices in any garb, whether that of an ordinary person or of an Imam.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
As I previously said, both are responsible for the safety of the children, but sexual predators are NOT limited to only one place. They are everywhere. Some can even be relatives. In this particular situation, there is a lot of information missing, and I'd even call it more of a rant. The brother has made the statement that everyone knew about this person's past in which case, why would the parents not stand against it? Why didn't the mosque hire someone else? Sometimes there are incompetent people in power and it takes a community's effort to make the changes. So why were changes not made sooner? We can walk in circles around this, but since brother @hisnameiszzz works with victims and knows those who were affiliated with this person then he can go and ask directly. Otherwise in Islam it's very clear that these types of actions are haraam. There should be no such thing as giving someone like this a second chance in an environment that is considered a fitnah for him. But whether you agree or not, safety begins in the household eg. mother teaches her daughter not to go anywhere alone with men, or allow any man outside of the home touch her, be it in an "islamic" environment or other. In the end really, the only person we can put the blame on 100% is the victimizer.
Reply

hisnameiszzz
09-28-2016, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Born_Believer
If your co-workers are asking you about muslim sex offenders, why don't you ask them to take ownership of every single white/christian/atheist sex offender? They do make up over 80% of the prison population in there for sexual offences. How about asking them to explain Jimmy Saville, quite possibly the most vile and large scale sex offender in human history. Grow a spine man?
Why would I want to ask about Saville? I'm talking about my area of concern where I work. If the young adults were being abused by him I would mention it.

Why do you want me to deploy question upon question tactics? They ask me about the religion of the perpetrators in our immediate area, why would I want to ask a question about something unrelated?

Grow a brain man!
Reply

Born_Believer
09-28-2016, 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
Why would I want to ask about Saville? I'm talking about my area of concern where I work. If the young adults were being abused by him I would mention it.

Why do you want me to deploy question upon question tactics? They ask me about the religion of the perpetrators in our immediate area, why would I want to ask a question about something unrelated?

Grow a brain man!
You would ask those questions because they are asking you and holding the whole Muslim community hostage to the actions of an individual. You have every right to ask them too. Why is it that when a muslim, or someone purporting to be a muslim, carries out a crime, the whole community has to answer for it? Stop being an apologist and start countering stupid arguments. Don't blame the entire muslim community just because you cant stand up to the people you work for.

I would never stand for that line of questioning.

And you still haven't responded to a number of other things I posed so I'm out. I never like discussing things that go round and round without any progress.
Reply

hisnameiszzz
09-28-2016, 09:12 PM
Search and Charisma your posts make a lot of sense to me. The sex attackers are wrong but the parents also need to keep tabs on their children like where did the new perfumes and new presents come from.

As one of the posters said indirectly, I don't think I understand Islam that well so I can't spearhead any new campaigns at the Mosque. That poster makes me feel like I am talking rubbish so I would probably be better off keeping my trap shut. If I get asked at work, I'll just say I don't know, ask someone who understands Islam.

As the second Imam at my Mosque regularly says Muslims are always being looked at so we should show them what Islam is really like. It's a shame his flock don't follow his words because they make sense. As Ahmed said, if Muslims acted like real Muslims, life would be so much better and no one would be able to point any fingers. But such is life I guess.

Part of me wishes I hadn't bothered doing this topic last night. It just really bothered me seen as my little nephews go to that Madrassah. I'm not saying the sex offender attacked anyone but it could have happened and that risk should not be there. That was my main concern.

I know I have probably upset a few people and for that I can only apologise.
Reply

Search
09-28-2016, 09:34 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


I honestly don't think you have done or said anything for which you need apologize (well, maybe the thread heading title but that's too understandable if seen from your point of view or leastways I think so).

On the contrary, brother, I think you understand Islam very well; I might have been a member since 2015, but I do recall reading some of your posts even when I was a lurker on IB and not a member. I do think your neighbors are the main culprit for your iman (faith) suffering, especially as you see that suffering also written on your family's faces day in and day out daily. So, no, I think you do have a lot of knowledge of Islam, even if your iman (faith) is low and faith in crisis due to what you perceive as unanswered prayers; I just think you're tired of seeing the disparity between what Islam requires of Muslims and Muslims acting differently than what Islam teaches us. I think your frustrations are understandable and in some way or the other probably shared by other people; I myself feel that way when I read any news about terrorists engaging in mass killing and then their religion being obviously Islam. We have frustrating realities that we're facing in the modern day; these realities are now part of the fabric of our everyday lives and you sharing that frustration on IB is appreciated; oh, I'm sure some do not appreciate you bringing up this topic at all because this topic doesn't make us feel good, but I cannot tell you how much important I consider these discussions to be. Because believe you me, if we do not discuss these things, you can be sure non-Muslims elsewhere will be discussing these things and not having any qualms about making any direct link between Islam and the reprehensible behavior of Muslims. You're actually doing us a favor in my point of view, even though I know it doesn't appear to some people that way right now.

Also, I do not accept your excuse of you being made to feel a certain way to keep to the same-old behavior of ignoring what is blatantly wrong; you need to stand up and speak out. It won't be convenient and you certainly won't be liked for doing so, but I'd and many other Muslims would appreciate you not fearing the blame of the blamers and instead doing so for the sake of Allah. On Judgment Day, we're all going to be standing naked and without any excuses for us not standing for justice; surely, you can understand then that you do not have the luxury of sitting before the computer screen in clothes and then turning away from doing what is right when you have in your ability the power to make a difference.

What if Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. and other great men had thought to make excuses thinking that other better men would take the lead? I suppose we'd then have a different world. Any difference must always start with you, not others; do not shift the responsibility of so doing to others. The answer is first you and then you can look as a second source to others.

Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
Search and Charisma your posts make a lot of sense to me. The sex attackers are wrong but the parents also need to keep tabs on their children like where did the new perfumes and new presents come from.

As one of the posters said indirectly, I don't think I understand Islam that well so I can't spearhead any new campaigns at the Mosque. That poster makes me feel like I am talking rubbish so I would probably be better off keeping my trap shut. If I get asked at work, I'll just say I don't know, ask someone who understands Islam.

As the second Imam at my Mosque regularly says Muslims are always being looked at so we should show them what Islam is really like. It's a shame his flock don't follow his words because they make sense. As Ahmed said, if Muslims acted like real Muslims, life would be so much better and no one would be able to point any fingers. But such is life I guess.

Part of me wishes I hadn't bothered doing this topic last night. It just really bothered me seen as my little nephews go to that Madrassah. I'm not saying the sex offender attacked anyone but it could have happened and that risk should not be there. That was my main concern.

I know I have probably upset a few people and for that I can only apologise.
:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Reply

*charisma*
09-28-2016, 09:38 PM
You don't have to know everything about Islam to be able to speak up against something that is wrong in your community. You could potentially save a person's life. Being sexually victimized is not something that when it happens in childhood stays in childhood; It victimizes the person's youth and adulthood as well. Secondly, in your line of work, your coworkers should be aware that this problem exists everywhere and victimizers come from a variety of different belief systems. The fact that they don't know this, or rather that they profile one group of people and ask you about it as if you are their representer is sad and makes me think they are a bit inept at their job. Lastly, since this is just a rant I'll close this thread to prevent it from going in circles. The solution of the problem lies in the efforts of the people who are willing to speak up or do something in the community. If anyone ever sees or knows about a child being maltreated or abused in anyway, they need to report it. Common sense goes a long way in these types of situations.

:threadclo
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