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Search
09-28-2016, 02:34 AM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Why Do People Blame Rape Victims? On The Vicious Cycle Of Victim-Blaming — And What We Can Do To Break It
SUZANNAH WEISS
March 31, 2015 LIFESTYLE

We live in a culture that not only blames sexual assault victims but also tells potential victims, especially women, that it is their duty to make sure they are not assaulted. From date-rape drug-detecting nail polish to difficult-to-remove underwear, the message is clear: We should be trying harder not to get raped. But as Abigail Burdess recently wrote, survivors of crimes like rape and assault frequently find themselves facing blame not only from others, but also from another, more personal source: Crime victims often blame themselves for what they've been through. But why? Why, in spite of the fact that the crime is always the fault of the person who committed it, does victim-blaming continue to happen — and from all sides?

When Burdess was writing case studies on torture victims at the Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture to secure grants from the United Nations, she noticed that rape victims often used blaming language towards themselves for the crimes committed against them. And these weren’t victims of atrocities like date rape that victim-blamers normally target. She writes in Standard Issue:

"I’ve heard it over and over: 'I woke up and he was on top of me and I begged him to stop but it was my fault because…' 'I was pulled into a ditch but it was my fault because…' 'I was held in a 4’ by 6’ cell and raped with a gun but it was my fault because…'"

Are these victims simply internalizing society’s judgments, or do they have more deep-seated reasons for blaming themselves? And why do others blame them in the first place?Burdess had the chance to ask these questions when she interviewed a clinical psychologist about a victim for whom she was advocating. The psychologist responded, "To stop blaming herself, she would have to face the power of the perpetrators over her. And she is not strong enough to face her powerlessness." In other words, what we cannot control, we cannot prevent — and rape victims want to believe they can avoid another assault. Similarly, people who have not been raped want to believe it couldn’t happen to them, so they come up with reasons why they are different from the victim.

Research confirms that people blame victims to convince themselves that they are in control of their destinies. Psychologist Melvin Lerner's experiments established the “just world fallacy” – our insistence that people get what they deserve. In one study, subjects observed someone solving problems and receiving electrical shocks when she messed up. Afterward, they criticized her appearance and personality and said she deserved the punishment. In another study, one of two men was awarded money allegedly at random, but participants still rated the person who got the money as smarter and more competent than the other one.

Further studies have found that people blame victims for everything from car accidents to domestic violence and that victims exhibit the same attitudes toward themselves. One study found that rape victims tend to blame their rapes on changeable behaviors rather than enduring personality traits, further perpetuating the illusion of control.

Still, the contributions of societal misogyny, stereotypes about male and female sexuality (“he can’t help it” and “she asked for it”), andmisconceptions about rape (“if she didn’t say ‘no,’ it’s her fault”) to victim-blaming should not be minimized. In fact, these problems contribute to rape itself — and addressing them would be more effective than worrying aboutwhat women are wearing.

Unlike policing victims’ behavior, educating people about rape can make lasting progress toward prevention. One study showed that after just one hour of education on sexual assault, men were less likely to believe myths about rape or consider being sexually coercive.

Once we recognize that sexual assault can happen to anyone, we can stop wondering what the victim did to deserve it and start wondering what allowed the perpetrator to go through with it. That’s the only way we can gain the control we crave and create the “just world” we want to believe in.
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kritikvernunft
09-28-2016, 04:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
We should be trying harder not to get raped ...
Well, it is preferable to put the responsibility there where it could really make a difference. Men can loudly proclaim from the roofs that it is unlawful to rape women, but what difference would it make? If this really would help, then there simply would be no rapes.
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Serinity
09-28-2016, 06:40 AM
:salam:

Wear more modest clothes, ban companies who sexualise women, ban channels who have women on "display", ban drugs, alcohol, night clubs, strip clubs, every avenue that can potentially lead to this.

Ban games that sexualise women, ban youtube channels that do, give a hefty fine on companies who make the clothes, or ban them.

Teach everyone morals. Society itself is its own contributor to an increase in rape. Doesn't give the rapist any excuse. But we could cut the things that can lead to this.

Have a cruel punishment on those who rape - execution? Public execution? by sword? Something that will deter anyone from doing it.

Until and unless we do not ban and stop the things that lead to rape, then it will continue to happen. Ban every indecent website, any website that promotes indecency.

And Allah :swt: knows best.
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Search
09-28-2016, 05:06 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft
Well, it is preferable to put the responsibility there where it could really make a difference.
While I do believe that dressing modestly in some situations can prevent a woman sometimes from being vulnerable to an attack of an unknown predator, I still think we should be completely attaching the responsibility of the crime perpetrated on the perpetrator. There are reasons for me saying so:

(1) Because rape is a global phenomena, and women dressed in burqa (complete veil) in Muslim countries or countries with more conservative forms of dressing like India are still raped.

(2) In shariah (Islamic law), the sentence for men raping a woman is death. Wa'il ibn Hujr reported that a woman publicly identified a man who had raped her. The people caught the man and brought him to the Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him). He told the woman to go, that she was not to be blamed, and ordered that the man be put to death. In another case, during the time of Caliph Umar :ra: (may God be pleased with him), a woman brought her infant to the mosque and publicly spoke about the rape that had resulted in her pregnancy and birth of her illegitimate child. When confronted with the woman's accusation, the accused admitted the crime to the Caliph Umar :ra: who ordered his punishment. The woman was not punished.

(3) Victim-blaming is not from Islam; it is a cultural phenomena that has superseded itself on Islam to the effect that men in Muslim-majority countries blame women for being raped whether she was in a burqa (veil) or other accepted conservative cultural dress. The idea in some places is that a Muslim woman's loss of honor is her fault because she must have somehow (no matter how far-fetched) done something or been something that would have given the idea that she's not respectable and therefore deserving of rape.

Men can loudly proclaim from the roofs that it is unlawful to rape women, but what difference would it make? If this really would help, then there simply would be no rapes.
Male peers have more far influence on one another than the out-group (i.e. women) would have on them in regards to specific subjects like rape. I completely admit that the above article only provides one study to show that men were far less likely to retain myths about rape and be less sexually coercive. However, I also maintain that it would not be far-fetched to extrapolate from other studies that consistently show that education and information is the key to prevention in other topics of interest like drugs and STDs.

When men are alone with other men, how they talk about women, I'd imagine, makes a big difference in how other men in a group setting are comfortable with objectifying a woman. If they're talking about women in demeaning ways, other men in the group are probably likely to follow suit.

For example, the idea that women are far more likely to influence other women is the reason that I also think men should not extol the virtues of polygamy to women because women are likely to interpret men as having selfish motives for promoting it; whereas a woman extolling the virtues of polygamy is far more likely to make a difference in other women's perception of the institution because they're likely to see the woman so doing as part of the in-group who's telling them something from an unselfish motive as she too is a woman.

While you're right that all rape will not be stopped even with all-male peer-driven education programs, I do think they will make some difference to how men think and perceive rape and act with their own female partners; and with enough education and information, I'd imagine, over time it may make enough difference that we'll have likely less numerical count of men believing myths about rape or acting in ways that can be interpreted as sexually coercive.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
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Serinity
09-28-2016, 05:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
Victim-blaming is not from Islam; it is a cultural phenomena that has superseded itself on Islam to the effect that men in Muslim-majority countries blame women for being raped whether she was in a burqa (veil) or other accepted conservative cultural dress.
:salam:

Are you saying that Burqa is a cultural dress?

It is common sense that the prepretator gets punished, and the victim does not. However, channels that openly advertise in one way or another, or incites sexual feelings, should be banned.
And Allah :swt: knows best.
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noraina
09-28-2016, 05:20 PM
Wa alaykum assalam,

Across all societies, victim-blaming concerning this seems to be more the norm than not, which, considered the horrific crime this is, is heart-breaking.

I do agree, that the way a woman dresses or conducts herself or where she chooses to go can help to an extent in preventing this, but still, the responsibility should not be entirely hers either...on both sides we need action.

Islam actually has really stringent laws on the punishment for the offender, this is not tolerated *at all* and so when in Muslim societies specifically you see how this is dealt with or approached in courts of law and the general community it's really disappointing.

And this culture of victim-blaming, rape and to a lesser extent sexual harassment is based really deep into the foundation of modern society. The media, the fashion industry, advertising, clubs, all of these things are more or less based upon objectifying women and debasing them...they do have a huge effect on people's mentality, to the extent even some women feel this is an 'inevitable' truth. Such things need to be cracked down on hard otherwise unfortunately nothing will change.
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Search
09-28-2016, 05:27 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficient, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

Burqa (complete veil) is a cultural garb but it also an Islamic garb. For example, I note that burqa (complete veil) is common in Afghanistan whereas the niqab (veil with eyes showing) is common to Saudi Arabia.

I note that in times of fitna, niqab becomes obligatory. However, niqab is not otherwise considered mandatory while hijab always is. I love and respect Muslim women who adopt due to piety burqa or niqab as a means of attaining closeness to God; however, I make no differentiation between our Muslim sisters because I know that we're all as Muslim women trying our best, even the one who hasn't yet adopted any kind of hijab for herself but is trying to do so for the sake of Allah. And we wish them all equal success.

format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
:salam:

Are you saying that Burqa is a cultural dress?

And Allah :swt: knows best.
:wa: (And peace be upon you)
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Serinity
09-28-2016, 05:27 PM
Society somehow 'allows' people or makes it seem acceptable for people to think of women as sex objects or commodities (quite disgusting, but it is true)

From advertisements, to games, to movies, to normal women dressing, in comparison to 40 years ago, like prostitutes. By saying this, I do not directly blame the women, rather it is society that has indoctrinated people to think that prostitute-like clothing is acceptable.

Lets not forget that Iblees wants mankind to go astray, and this means riding them of clothes, spreading disease, hypocrisy, degrading thoughts about women, etc. This is one of the plots of Iblees.

Allahu alam.
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Search
09-28-2016, 05:53 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

I just wanted to clarify something of importance: While I do think women (Muslim or Non-Muslim) would be benefited from dressing modestly in spiritual and metaphysical terms alone in our society, I do not think women (Muslim or non-Muslim) who dressed immodestly can said to have EVER invited rape.

Women DO NOT invite rapists to rape them; that's just such an ill-judged notion that it seriously needs to die a quick death. No woman ever wakes up, no matter how provocatively males may perceive her as having dressed, and thinks, "Hey, today is a good day for a man to come rape me."

Rape is not only a physical act of penetration; it is a mental and spiritual violation of her persondhood and a negation of the sanctity of her humanity and her ownership of her own sexuality.

The reason I'm saying this is because I think we seem to be going in the pathways which I honestly want to avoid, which is shifting the responsibility of the rape to any degree on the woman. Crimes are always the fault of the criminal.

Would a woman be benefited in having dressed modestly? I haven't denied that.

Please note though that even in countries wherein we have the most conservative garbs imaginable, women are not faring any better and still becoming victims of rape. Therefore, I think attitudes about woman and rape are the culprit behind the phenomena of rape.

World Health Organization says in an article, "Recent global prevalence figures indicate that about 1 in 3 (35%) of women worldwide have experienced either physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence or non-partner sexual violence in their lifetime." However, I believe these statistics are not inclusive of sexual assault crimes that go unreported all the time, which means that the statistics are probably much higher than indicated here.
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Serinity
09-28-2016, 06:12 PM
she may not want to be raped - but that is what she is sending of signals with the clothes she is wearing.

If I go out and wear cop-clothes. I just walk around, I do not want to be called for some police-work, I am not a cop! but I do have them clothes on.

However, I am not saying it is entirely her fault - it is not, for the rape - it is not. But anyone who wears provocative clothing is somehow contributing to it, or "supporting rape". Rather it is society as a whole that contribute to and "grows" the seeds and "place" for rape to take place.

Those who follow the crowd fall victim to this messed up atmosphere helping the growth of rape.

Allahu alam.
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ardianto
09-28-2016, 06:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
she may not want to be raped - but that is what she is sending of signals with the clothes she is wearing.
Women who dressed sexily know that they can provoke the men's lust. So they are aware of their safety and avoid situation that can make them getting raped. Different than the women who dressed modestly. They are not aware, and accidentally they can fall into risky situation like walking in the dark alley that make them easily to be attacked by rapist.

There is a misunderstanding about statement "sexy dress increasing rape". It does not mean those victims being raped because they dressed sexily. But the sexy dress cause lust for some men who see it, and then they rape the victim who unaware who are not those sexy dressed women, but other women who usually dressed modestly.

One fact about rape. Mostly of victims dressed modestly.
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sister herb
09-28-2016, 06:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
she may not want to be raped - but that is what she is sending of signals with the clothes she is wearing.
Also women wearing with burkas become raped - unfortunately. Remember that raping isn´t only a sexual act - much more it´s an act of power and desire of subordinate.
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MuslimInshallah
09-28-2016, 07:14 PM
Assalaamu alaikum,


Mmm... from what I know, rape has very little to do with a healthy sex drive, but a lot to do with enjoying hurting and humiliating another human being. While clothes that enhance a woman's sexual attractiveness may increase a man's lust, I don't think they would increase his desire to hurt and humiliate a woman. Really, this is just a red herring.

It seems to me that we need to look at the reasons why some men feel so weak and angry inside that they feel the need to hurt others. And then we need to look at what can be done about these reasons. It's more of a mental health issue, I think. Because I don't think that any man of emotionally sound mind would enjoy hurting someone. (smile) I am not talking about idle fantasies. People fantasize about all sorts of things that they would never actually do. (seriously) I am talking about knowingly hurting and humiliating someone, and getting a thrill from that.


May Allah, the Light, Help us to see.
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Serinity
09-28-2016, 07:33 PM
I see, so psychopaths rape people? They can be..... I mean, enjoying to kill and humiliate people is just wrong, very wrong.

It seems like it is more of a societal issue, than it is the victim's.. Although the clothing may and does play a role, no sane man would rape a woman because of a temptation.

And seeing that modest people get raped, and btw, I am not defending criminals with the excuse of "temptations". But it does play a factor.

reinstating the Death Penalty for rape - a Public Execution, may deter many criminals..............

I am still firm on that those who dress provocatively - are their own imprisoners.
What do you see as a factor that contributes towards rape?
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Born_Believer
09-28-2016, 08:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
:salam:

Wear more modest clothes, ban companies who sexualise women, ban channels who have women on "display", ban drugs, alcohol, night clubs, strip clubs, every avenue that can potentially lead to this.

Ban games that sexualise women, ban youtube channels that do, give a hefty fine on companies who make the clothes, or ban them.

Teach everyone morals. Society itself is its own contributor to an increase in rape. Doesn't give the rapist any excuse. But we could cut the things that can lead to this.

Have a cruel punishment on those who rape - execution? Public execution? by sword? Something that will deter anyone from doing it.

Until and unless we do not ban and stop the things that lead to rape, then it will continue to happen. Ban every indecent website, any website that promotes indecency.

And Allah :swt: knows best.
I like your posts a lot. They are straightforward and honest...and correct.

People want to pussyfoot around the issue but it's very simple, western society actively encourages sexualisation of women, in fact even little girls, it promotes alcohol as THE thing to do, it pushes drugs and partying as a must and so on and so forth. When the results of such societal norms rears it's ugly heads, we turn around and start spouting what is largely rubbish, such as , "women are blamed for rape". No they are not. Women, by many intelligent, caring individuals are simply told to protect themselves.

Let me give a bit of an example: in Japan, they started up a scheme where there were separate train carriages for women. It became such a success (there have been very high rates of men molesting women in Japan on public transport) that the scheme was rolled out across larger cities. When a politician in the UK suggesting such a scheme for London, I believe it was Corbyn, there were numerous "feminist" articles in newspapers, lambasting the move. Yet precautions like this are in place for womens own safety. It's not victim blaming, it's being smart and careful.

First tie your camel, then put your trust in Allah.

No, I'm not calling women camels lol I'm just saying, first take the necessary precautions, it's not blaming you, it's trying to help you.
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AnnaK
09-28-2016, 09:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Women who dressed sexily know that they can provoke the men's lust. So they are aware of their safety and avoid situation that can make them getting raped. Different than the women who dressed modestly. They are not aware, and accidentally they can fall into risky situation like walking in the dark alley that make them easily to be attacked by rapist.

There is a misunderstanding about statement "sexy dress increasing rape". It does not mean those victims being raped because they dressed sexily. But the sexy dress cause lust for some men who see it, and then they rape the victim who unaware who are not those sexy dressed women, but other women who usually dressed modestly.

One fact about rape. Mostly of victims dressed modestly.
Maybe we should teach men not to sexualize women rather than blame a woman for what she wears. This is talking about how wrong it is for a victim to dress a certain way, when really, we need to focus the conversation on men who commit these rapes.

Not only would these men be losing their virginity, but they would also certainly be breaking their chastity. I shouldn't have to say more on what impact this has to a Muslim in terms of the Day of Judgement. In terms of this life, we should make the punishment severe.

Also, men don't get raped by other men at the rates that women are raped my men because men are held in higher regard in almost every contemporary society. If we teach people to treat men and women equally, then women won't be objectified, and this horrid behavior would drastically diminish.

We need to criticize and critique the rapists; we NEVER should criticize the victim. No one is ever "asking for it" and we shouldn't contribute to rape culture by allowing ideas like that to continue.
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Zafran
09-28-2016, 11:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
Maybe we should teach men not to sexualize women rather than blame a woman for what she wears. This is talking about how wrong it is for a victim to dress a certain way, when really, we need to focus the conversation on men who commit these rapes.

Not only would these men be losing their virginity, but they would also certainly be breaking their chastity. I shouldn't have to say more on what impact this has to a Muslim in terms of the Day of Judgement. In terms of this life, we should make the punishment severe.

Also, men don't get raped by other men at the rates that women are raped my men because men are held in higher regard in almost every contemporary society. If we teach people to treat men and women equally, then women won't be objectified, and this horrid behavior would drastically diminish.

We need to criticize and critique the rapists; we NEVER should criticize the victim. No one is ever "asking for it" and we shouldn't contribute to rape culture by allowing ideas like that to continue.
Rape is wrong full stop - whatever people are wearing, whoever they are. They should be punished.

However the way people dress is important because it can promote Zina/shamelessness and general indecent behavior from men and women. Men and women are responsible for upholding modest and upright behavior for the betterment of society. Without it people are doomed.
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Serinity
09-29-2016, 03:53 AM
you can't expect men to be robots when they see a provocative woman. Western society is prolly exploiting our weakness for women in sexualising them.

and the way one dressed, does sexualise or desexualise. Simple: reinstate the Death Penalty and ban every avenue that leads to rape, be it clothing etc.

Rape is wrong no matter what clothing you wear - however clothing does play an impact. The bigger problem is: sexualisation of women in Japan USA, almost everywhere.

Wherever it is, the environment plays a huge role. The way to, In shaa' Allah, reduce rape is:

Ban everything that promotes indecency in one shape or the other,
ban every website that do - because there are companies who get billions for having indecent videos and there are also even worse.

These people who run these website should be punished - cuz they are a contributor.

Reinstate the death penalty completely - public execution - old style.
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AnnaK
09-29-2016, 04:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
you can't expect men to be robots when they see a provocative woman. Western society is prolly exploiting our weakness for women in sexualising them.

and the way one dressed, does sexualise or desexualise. Simple: reinstate the Death Penalty and ban every avenue that leads to rape, be it clothing etc.

Rape is wrong no matter what clothing you wear - however clothing does play an impact. The bigger problem is: sexualisation of women in Japan USA, almost everywhere.

Wherever it is, the environment plays a huge role. The way to, In shaa' Allah, reduce rape is:

Ban everything that promotes indecency in one shape or the other,
ban every website that do - because there are companies who get billions for having indecent videos and there are also even worse.

These people who run these website should be punished - cuz they are a contributor.

Reinstate the death penalty completely - public execution - old style.
Men in America aren't raping women at extreme rates, and the standard for women in the US is shorts that barely cover the butt, and shirts that don't cover the belly button. The "rape capital of the world" is India, and the women dress much more conservative there. The problem isn't the way women dress; the problem is the way men act, and the way men objectify women.

Saying men are pigs that can't control themselves is a terrible excuse.
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Serinity
09-29-2016, 04:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
Men in America aren't raping women at extreme rates, and the standard for women in the US is shorts that barely cover the butt, and shirts that don't cover the belly button. The "rape capital of the world" is India, and the women dress much more conservative there. The problem isn't the way women dress; the problem is the way men act, and the way men objectify women.

Saying men are pigs that can't control themselves is a terrible excuse.
The disbelievers prolly masturbate instead to indecent websites - whatever it is - clothing plays an impact. If women dresses like prostitutes they are inviting uninvited rapists - and they are contributing to it.

USA are prolly advertising and sexualising. Therefore USA is a contributor

I hope every women gets every sin for dressing provocatively!
So no, dress plays a part.

don't be naive - Clothing plays a part the people dress walk tall interact - promote. All play an impact.

Amd I will say it again cuz it's true:

you can not expect men to be robots - call us perverts whatever - does not change - does not excuse rape - but society is prolly exploiting our weaknessew
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AnnaK
09-29-2016, 04:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
The disbelievers prolly masturbate instead to indecent websites - whatever it is - clothing plays an impact. If women dresses like prostitutes they are inviting uninvited rapists - and they are contributing to it.

So no, dress plays a part.
Are you victim blaming? Are you saying it's the victims fault that they get raped because of what they wear? The victim could wear anything from multiple layers of clothing to three pieces if tape, and anywhere on that spectrum she shouldn't be blamed. If the way women dress causes men to rape, then nudist communes would be rape infested cities, but they're NOT. Clothing does not play a role. If it did, beaches would be rape epicenters, but they're NOT. Clothing doesn't play a role.
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Serinity
09-29-2016, 04:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
Are you victim blaming? Are you saying it's the victims fault that they get raped because of what they wear? The victim could wear anything from multiple layers of clothing to three pieces if tape, and anywhere on that spectrum she shouldn't be blamed. If the way women dress causes men to rape, then nudist communes would be rape infested cities, but they're NOT. Clothing does not play a role. If it did, beaches would be rape epicenters, but they're NOT. Clothing doesn't play a role.
I'm not victim blaming I am simply stating facts - don't be naive - clothing does play a part. It is a contributor.

I do blame the way they dress - they are inviting rape they dont want. Proly naive.
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AnnaK
09-29-2016, 04:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
I'm not victim blaming I am simply stating facts - don't be naive - clothing does play a part. It is a contributor.

I do blame the way they dress - they are inviting rape they dont want. Proly naive.
Do you know what the definition of victim blaming is? That last sentence was unrefutable victim blaming.
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Serinity
09-29-2016, 06:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
Do you know what the definition of victim blaming is? That last sentence was unrefutable victim blaming.
They are a victim of the societal system who makes it ok and acceptable to walk around in "prostitute" clothing. Which it basically is. It is true - they are inviting unwanted rape. Although they don't want rape.

The fact that nudist beaches are not raped is not a valid arguement to your "clothing does not play a part".

It does play a part, and the reason beaches are not raped is because rapists don't want to be caught.

One would have to be incredibly naive to think clothing has no part in it.
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AnnaK
09-29-2016, 06:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
They are a victim of the societal system who makes it ok and acceptable to walk around in "prostitute" clothing. Which it basically is. It is true - they are inviting unwanted rape. Although they don't want rape.

The fact that nudist beaches are not raped is not a valid arguement to your "clothing does not play a part".

It does play a part, and the reason beaches are not raped is because rapists don't want to be caught.

One would have to be incredibly naive to think clothing has no part in it.
An example of rape culture according to Southern Connecticut State University is, "Publicly scrutinizing a victim’s dress, mental state, motives, and history."

What did you call it again? ""Prostitute" clothing"? And you were saying that the way women dress affects the chances of them being raped. So, her dressing like a "prostitute" would further increase her risk of rape. I think calling what women wear ""prostitute" clothing" would be considered "Publicly scrutinizing a victim’s dress."

In other words, what you are saying, according to Southern Connecticut State University is rape culture.

One more thing from the Southern Connecticut State University: "FACT: Sexual assault is NEVER the victim’s fault." That would imply that regardless of how they dress, it's not their fault. We shouldn't be insulting women for how they dress. Instead, we should be teaching people to respect women, rather than use them as objects for their sexual pleasure.

The fact that we're arguing about how victims dress rather than the rapist and how fast we should fry them is despicable. I don't want to argue about this any more than you probably do, so I'm not responding to anything else on this matter. To clarify though, please when talking about rape, never focus on what the victim was wearing. It's degrading that we even need to have a conversation on this.

Anyways, I hope you have a good day (or night, depending on where you are).
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kritikvernunft
09-29-2016, 08:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
I hope every women gets every sin for dressing provocatively!
We all get punished for our sins, if not in this life, then in the next one. The earlier the punishment for our misdeeds, the better, and the more grateful we should be to our Beloved Master!
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Serinity
09-29-2016, 09:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
An example of rape culture according to Southern Connecticut State University is, "Publicly scrutinizing a victim’s dress, mental state, motives, and history."

What did you call it again? ""Prostitute" clothing"? And you were saying that the way women dress affects the chances of them being raped. So, her dressing like a "prostitute" would further increase her risk of rape. I think calling what women wear ""prostitute" clothing" would be considered "Publicly scrutinizing a victim’s dress."

In other words, what you are saying, according to Southern Connecticut State University is rape culture.

One more thing from the Southern Connecticut State University: "FACT: Sexual assault is NEVER the victim’s fault." That would imply that regardless of how they dress, it's not their fault. We shouldn't be insulting women for how they dress. Instead, we should be teaching people to respect women, rather than use them as objects for their sexual pleasure.

The fact that we're arguing about how victims dress rather than the rapist and how fast we should fry them is despicable. I don't want to argue about this any more than you probably do, so I'm not responding to anything else on this matter. To clarify though, please when talking about rape, never focus on what the victim was wearing. It's degrading that we even need to have a conversation on this.

Anyways, I hope you have a good day (or night, depending on where you are).
I call it stating facts. :D Good day.
Reply

darkbro
09-29-2016, 09:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AnnaK
Men in America aren't raping women at extreme rates, and the standard for women in the US is shorts that barely cover the butt, and shirts that don't cover the belly button. The "rape capital of the world" is India, and the women dress much more conservative there. The problem isn't the way women dress; the problem is the way men act, and the way men objectify women.

Saying men are pigs that can't control themselves is a terrible excuse.
Wrong. US exceeds India's raping case, even in rape rate (number of rape per population).

The super power of the world is at the first position in the race of rapes. Males are majorly the rapist holding a proportion of 99%. Out of all the victims, 91% are females while 9% are males. The U.S Bureau of Justice Statistics states that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, and nearly 99% of rapists are male. According to the National Violence Against Women Survey, 1 in 6 U.S. women and 1 in 33 U.S. men has experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime. More than a quarter of college-age women report having experienced a rape or rape attempt since age 14. Out of all, only 16% of the total cases are reported. Outdoor rape is not common in USA rather most of the rape cases takes place inside homes.

http://www.wonderslist.com/10-countr...st-rape-crime/
Reply

Serinity
09-29-2016, 09:42 AM
With the clothing people wear, and with the hypersexualised industry and society, no wonder there is rape.
Reply

ardianto
09-29-2016, 10:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
With the clothing people wear, and with the hypersexualised industry and society, no wonder there is rape.
One cause that make Indonesia stop sending maids to Saudi Arabia is rape cases that committed by the Saudi employers or family member toward Indonesian maids.

Even in ultra-conservative society rape still happen.
Reply

Search
09-29-2016, 10:27 AM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
With the clothing people wear, and with the hypersexualised industry and society, no wonder there is rape.
I just wanted to ask some genuine questions out of curiosity to you and @Born_Believer or any other brothers (Muslim or non-Muslim) questions, and, please, I want completely honest answers as it has always struck me that as a woman I seem to lack some understanding and insight into why men talk about women's clothing. Therefore, my questions are as follows:

1. When a normal man, for example, sees a woman dressed immodestly or provocatively, is he tempted to rape her?

2. Is the thought of raping a woman one which frequently crosses a normal man's brain whenever he sees the aforesaid immodestly or provocatively dressed woman?

3. And if the thought of raping the woman does cross a normal man's brain, then what is the tipping point that pushes him over?

4. Also, if clothing is one of the main factors that either inclines or causes normal men to rape, then why are women who are dressed modestly also equally likely to be raped?

The reason I'm asking these questions is because the propositions put forth have import far beyond the scope of the discussion of women's choice of clothing. If we're making the argument that a woman's immodest clothing has an effect on men's inclination to rape or causes them to rape, then potentially we're saying that in at least countries wherein liberal dressing styles are common all men (non-Muslim and non-Muslim) are potential rapists. I'm trying to understand then if this is true and then to what degree this is true. And also, I'm trying to understand then what would account for men not respecting enough the perceived modesty of modestly dressed women to not rape them. Additionally, I'm trying to understand if rapes are about sexual desire and if so to what degree.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Reply

darkbro
09-29-2016, 11:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)




I just wanted to ask some genuine questions out of curiosity to you and @Born_Believer or any other brothers (Muslim or non-Muslim) questions, and, please, I want completely honest answers as it has always struck me that as a woman I seem to lack some understanding and insight into why men talk about women's clothing. Therefore, my questions are as follows:

1. When a normal man, for example, sees a woman dressed immodestly or provocatively, is he tempted to rape her?

2. Is the thought of raping a woman one which frequently crosses a normal man's brain whenever he sees the aforesaid immodestly or provocatively dressed woman?

3. And if the thought of raping the woman does cross a normal man's brain, then what is the tipping point that pushes him over?

4. Also, if clothing is one of the main factors that either inclines or causes normal men to rape, then why are women who are dressed modestly also equally likely to be raped?

The reason I'm asking these questions is because the propositions put forth have import far beyond the scope of the discussion of women's choice of clothing. If we're making the argument that a woman's immodest clothing has an effect on men's inclination to rape or causes them to rape, then potentially we're saying that in at least countries wherein liberal dressing styles are common all men (non-Muslim and non-Muslim) are potential rapists. I'm trying to understand then if this is true and then to what degree this is true. And also, I'm trying to understand then what would account for men not respecting enough the perceived modesty of modestly dressed women to not rape them. Additionally, I'm trying to understand if rapes are about sexual desire and if so to what degree.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
I'm sure one of the root causes of raping is porn..

Porns are everywhere. Billboards, TVs, internet.. subliminal messages..

Clothes may trigger desires
Reply

Huzaifah ibn Adam
09-29-2016, 11:03 AM
The punishment for rape is execution, but the West has taken out the death penalty. Were executions carried out on rapists, the amount of rape cases would reduce very quickly.

With regards to clothing:

Women must understand that we do not live in an ideal world. People - both men and women - are not what you'd expect them to be, or want them to be. Things you do have consequences. A woman must realise that when she dresses immodestly, wearing a micro-mini for example, that is - without a doubt - going to cause the urges of certain men - particularly those who are unmarried - to skyrocket. Now, in a perfect world they would not rape. But this is not a perfect world. This is "Dunyaa". So when they have those urges, they will not care who they harm in the way of satisfying themselves. If she had been fully covered up, they would not have become as aroused when seeing her. Pay attention to the keyword here: "as". They would not become "as aroused". Meaning they will, but not to the extent as when she is exposing her body. Take one of those unmarried men, and the likelihood of him raping a woman is, for example, 5%. If she's fully covered up, it's 5%. If she's wearing a skirt and her arms till just above the elbows are uncovered, it's 10%. If she's wearing a micro-mini and halter top, it's 85%. If she's walking around in a bikini, it's 97% that the men who see her are going to interfere with her and will not hold themselves back.

That is the reality of the Dunyaa. People must understand the reality and act accordingly.

For example, here in SA, if you walk in the street with your cellphone in your hand, particularly a woman, there is a 70% chance someone's going to run past and grab it. Now, you could argue that, "I'm just walking around with my own cellphone in my hand! I'm not to blame for someone stealing it!" But in SA, you will be blamed. People will say, "You are a fool. How can you walk around in NU11 or Izinyoka with a Samsung Galaxy S7 in your hand? You're asking for it to be stolen." Is that the ideal situation? No, it isn't. But it's the way things are. Complaining won't solve anything. It's a fact of life that men will be more inclined to rape if they see a woman with her body open. They would still rape a woman who is covered, but the likelihood is less.

To rape someone entails a great deal of risk: the likelihood of the rapist getting caught or facing bad consequences from it (in the form of the husband or male relatives hunting him down) is high. So, when they see a woman who is covered, they don't know what she looks like, so they're not as ready to take that risk. When they see a woman walking around in a mini-skirt, though, and she is attractive looking, then they think, "It's worth it."

So, realise that the Dunyaa is not like how people want it to be. It's the way it is. Certain things cause provocations more than others.

والسلام
Reply

MuslimInshallah
09-29-2016, 11:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity
I see, so psychopaths rape people? They can be..... I mean, enjoying to kill and humiliate people is just wrong, very wrong.

It seems like it is more of a societal issue, than it is the victim's.. Although the clothing may and does play a role, no sane man would rape a woman because of a temptation.

And seeing that modest people get raped, and btw, I am not defending criminals with the excuse of "temptations". But it does play a factor.

reinstating the Death Penalty for rape - a Public Execution, may deter many criminals..............

I am still firm on that those who dress provocatively - are their own imprisoners.
What do you see as a factor that contributes towards rape?
Assalaamu alaikum Serenity,


Mmm... while psychopathy could be a form of disease that would bring a man to be more likely to rape, I do not think that rapists are always or even often psychopaths. I think the roots of the problem often lie more in male feelings of helplessness. No one likes to feel helpless and vulnerable, and one way that men who feel this way deal with their feelings of weakness is to try to assert power over another person, often a woman. Of course, it doesn't really help, as the underlying fear is still there. But it briefly gives a sense of powerfulness.

(smile) If you, Serenity, feel attracted to a woman, this does not make you a potential rapist, you know. It means you're a healthy man. I do not at all believe that a normal sexually aroused man becomes a potential rapist, because hurting and humiliating a woman is not part of a normal sexual response. Indeed, a healthy man is awash in a nurturing hormone after sex. This causes tender feelings and a desire to look after and protect the woman (incidentally, this hormone also causes tender feelings in mothers towards their children). But it seems to me that decent, healthy men are perhaps afraid that they might be potential rapists. And so, they seek ways to explain what might cause a man to rape. And feeling sexually aroused by a woman in clothes that are often designed (by the clothes manufacturers) to elicit a response in men... it seems like a natural explanation for what they fear they might (but actually wouldn't) do.

But rape has nothing to do with a normal sexual response. Allah Designed men and women to look after one another, He Endowed us with love and mercy for one another, both for our good, and for the good of our potential children. An emotionally and mentally healthy man would not find it sexually or emotionally gratifying to hurt and humiliate a woman.

For me, the importance of how I dress has to do with politeness. Knowing that God has Designed men to be sexually aroused by a woman's body, I take that into account. Just as it would be rude of me to waft chocolate cake under the nose of a friend I know is fasting and has a partiality to chocolate cake, I feel it would be rude of me to knowingly try to provoke a sexual response in a man other than my husband.

However, there is one way in which a woman's dress might increase her likelihood of rape: and that is if it identifies her as being of a vulnerable group. A man who is seeking a woman to hurt in order to try to get rid of his own feelings of weakness is often essentially a coward. He will look for an easy target. A woman who is part of a marginalized group in society, is one that is less protected, and one whom the perpetrator is less likely to be held accountable for harming. This is why women of a minority or subjugated ethnic or social group are more at risk of rape and harm in general.

(sigh) So, for instance, in the context of being in a society that holds hostile feelings towards Muslims, a woman who dresses in a way that identifies her as Muslim, could actually be at an increased risk of being assaulted. Is this her fault? No, of course not.

Dress is not the issue in rape. From what I can see, the social climate and certain mental or emotional pathologies (including a man's inappropriate ways of dealing with feelings of weakness) are the key problems.


May Allah, the Subtle, Help us to understand and to be just.
Reply

Serinity
09-29-2016, 12:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
1. When a normal man, for example, sees a woman dressed immodestly or provocatively, is he tempted to rape her?
No, not at all. But one does become sexually aroused.

format_quote Originally Posted by Search
2. Is the thought of raping a woman one which frequently crosses a normal man's brain whenever he sees the aforesaid immodestly or provocatively dressed woman?
No, sexual desire is a factor in contribution to rape.

One'd have to cross several moral boundaries to rape someone..... OR they might think "It is worth it(the risk)"

format_quote Originally Posted by Search
3. And if the thought of raping the woman does cross a normal man's brain, then what is the tipping point that pushes him over?
I am not a rapist, so Idk.

But this never, ever, excuses a woman from saying "So what if I am wearing mini skirts! They can just look away.​" The last line is pure ignorance.

But sexual desire may be the thing the man "wants".

The way I deal with it is restraining my thoughts, by focusing my eyes on an inanimate object. lol. However, the want to rape, never ever comes to mind or even connects with my desires.

But I find it arrogant of women to say "So what?"

One has to cross many moral boundaries, and one's goal has to be - or so the man thinks/feels - worth the risk.

I don't think mere desires is the tipping factor, however, it is a factor. Why else would one want to rape women? It could also be out of desperation.

Regardless of the reasons - it is cowardice, weak, and very low to rape women. Execution by sword is a befitting punishment.

Allahu alam.
Reply

Huzaifah ibn Adam
09-29-2016, 01:20 PM
They can look away, but they won't. Walk with a wad of money in your hand in Soweto and the people there "can" look away, but they won't. They'll stab you in the neck as they run past and grab it.

That's life.

Complaining about things doesn't change them.
Reply

sister herb
09-29-2016, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by darkbro
I'm sure one of the root causes of raping is porn..

Porns are everywhere. Billboards, TVs, internet.. subliminal messages..

Clothes may trigger desires
That is a good explanation as porn is mostly very abusive. But raping is far more older way to humiliate someone than porn industry has been exist.
Reply

darkbro
09-29-2016, 03:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
That is a good explanation as porn is mostly very abusive. But raping is far more older way to humiliate someone than porn industry has been exist.
Nah, you're wrong. Porn industry has been existed looong way ago. Remember the Romans nude statues? The nude sculptures? People of Lot? India's Khajuraho? City of Pompeii?
Reply

Born_Believer
09-29-2016, 06:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)




I just wanted to ask some genuine questions out of curiosity to you and @Born_Believer or any other brothers (Muslim or non-Muslim) questions, and, please, I want completely honest answers as it has always struck me that as a woman I seem to lack some understanding and insight into why men talk about women's clothing. Therefore, my questions are as follows:

1. When a normal man, for example, sees a woman dressed immodestly or provocatively, is he tempted to rape her?

2. Is the thought of raping a woman one which frequently crosses a normal man's brain whenever he sees the aforesaid immodestly or provocatively dressed woman?

3. And if the thought of raping the woman does cross a normal man's brain, then what is the tipping point that pushes him over?

4. Also, if clothing is one of the main factors that either inclines or causes normal men to rape, then why are women who are dressed modestly also equally likely to be raped?

The reason I'm asking these questions is because the propositions put forth have import far beyond the scope of the discussion of women's choice of clothing. If we're making the argument that a woman's immodest clothing has an effect on men's inclination to rape or causes them to rape, then potentially we're saying that in at least countries wherein liberal dressing styles are common all men (non-Muslim and non-Muslim) are potential rapists. I'm trying to understand then if this is true and then to what degree this is true. And also, I'm trying to understand then what would account for men not respecting enough the perceived modesty of modestly dressed women to not rape them. Additionally, I'm trying to understand if rapes are about sexual desire and if so to what degree.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Walaikum Salam!

I will answer your questions first and then raise some far more important points, some of which I touched on in my previous post here. However, I will post that later as I'm in a bit of a hurry atm sorry.

So, just to answer the questions first (from my own "normal" perspective):

1. No. Never. However, there is absolutely no doubt that seeing a beautiful woman, dressed a particular way is most certainly a turn on but being practicing and understanding of my religion, I never gawp at a woman or follow her all the way till she is out of sight, as many men do, especially those with barely any inclination towards religion.

2. Again, no. Never.

3. I'll try and delve deeper into this when I make my next detailed post. :omg:

4. Again, similarly to number 3. However, two things I'd like to say here. First, it's not just how a woman is dressed. Second, I dunno if it is statistically the same for modestly or immodestly dressed women to get raped. For example, in my own personal demographic (students) 1 in 7 female university students are likely to have been raped in the UK. Most of it occurs during nights out with a mixture of alcohol and darkness. Oh, and I'm certain girls aren't dressed like nuns out on the streets of Leicester Square or Piccadilly during a student night event.

Bare with me for my post, I just need to finish up another write up. Excusez moi.
Reply

Search
09-29-2016, 06:15 PM
^^^

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

I'll look forward to your response, brother @Born_Believer, and I also want to take a moment to thank all the brothers who responded as well: @darkbro @Serenity @Huzaifah ibn Adam.

God-willing, I'll respond as well, but I do want to hear some more responses before I do; thank you all for your honesty and time and consideration and patience. :)

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Reply

Serinity
09-29-2016, 07:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
4. Also, if clothing is one of the main factors that either inclines or causes normal men to rape, then why are women who are dressed modestly also equally likely to be raped?
I can only guess here. But from my educated guess or perhaps uneducated one:

In some countries, people see modest women as a "higher checkpoint/more points" targets as opposed to the immodest one..

For example:

An immodest woman: 20 points.
modest one: 100 points.

I know this is a very disgusting way of thinking, but it could be true.

But one may think "how would one know whether one is beautiful when someone is modest?" Well, the face shows one's beauty, while one's hands shows one's youthness.

Say in Saudi Arabia, when employees or employeers rape maids (very wrong), firstly:

A> are they modest or not?

Lets assume they are (the maids) what would move one to rape a woman? Perhaps lack of hayah, or personal space, too much free mixing, and perhaps even a 1 man vs 1 woman situation, where fitnah arises. Could be factors towards it happening, not necessarily it being an active factor.

I don't know much about rapists, but I can "figure" that rapists are weakminded cowards who prey on the vulnerable. There are also the sickos who go after modest people for the thrills or "jackpots" no matter how screwed it is.

Or perhaps even, there are those who have exceeded the bounds and want more gratification, and perhaps this extreme want for sex turns into wanting to forcefully to rape, and it makes it to be much more of a challenge to rape modest ones........ And more of a mystery.......

I think Indecent websites who advertise sex, etc. Is a factor to.

One could call "rape" a twisted fetish in the minds of the sick.
I don't want to explore anymore sick ideas lol.
Reply

Serinity
09-30-2016, 04:28 AM
:bism:

I have come to the realisation that for rapists:

A. Their morals are corrupt.
2. Their sexual desires are corrupt.
V. Their ownself are corrupt.
D. A combination of A, 2 and V.

Like how gays perhaps deviate, rapists seek other means of gratifications by way of harm??
Reply

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