The Muslim Concept of Jesus: Discussion Between Mufti Abdur Rahman & Dr Brendan Devit

[muslim brother]

excellent mutual respect shown
no debating
just discussing
as it should be

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you AHMED PATEL;

Thanks for sharing this video, and I would recommend anyone to watch all thirty five minutes, whether you are Christian or Muslim.
When I have more time I will try and find the second half.

In the spirit of praying to 'One God'

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you AHMED PATEL;

I have now watched part 2, and again it was worth watching, thanks for the original link.

Blessings.

Eric

[Holy branch]

Thanks for offering this video. It helps me to understands better what the Islamic view of Jesus is.

I'll offer below what the Bible says, showing how Christianity and Islam contradict each other in regards to Jesus.

Because Islam denies that Jesus died on the cross for our sin, this makes Islam ANTI-CHRIST, as defined in 1John 2:22 in the Bible. This shows that Islam denies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin and rose again. This Mufti claims that Adam's creation was miraculous therefore the birth of Jesus is no more special, thus claiming that Jesus was not begotten of God. Sadly this Mufti fails to understand the difference.Consider the difference between the first man Adam, and the last Adam (who is Jesus Christ).1Corinthians 15:45"Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit."And note the following verse showing that first comes the physical, and later comes the spiritual.1Corinthians 15:46"But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual."Thus we see that the first Adam symbolizes the physical man, which dies in sin, whilst the last Adam (Jesus Christ) is SPIRITUAL.Jesus said in John 3:6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."This life we all live now is a battle about whether we choose to remain in the flesh (like the first Adam who died in sin) OR the spirit (being baptized into Christ, who is the last Adam, being spiritual). Being born of God is to be born of the Spirit. Christians are born of God, as defined in 1John 5:1."Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

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[Holy branch]

I'll repost my previous post as being new to this forum I seem to have done something to wrong which resulted in losing the paragraph spacing I originally had.


Thanks for offering this video. It helps me to understands better what the Islamic view of Jesus is.

I'll offer below what the Bible says, showing how Christianity and Islam contradict each other in regards to Jesus.

Because Islam denies that Jesus died on the cross for our sin, this makes Islam ANTI-CHRIST, as defined in 1John 2:22 in the Bible.
This shows that Islam denies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin and rose again.


This Mufti claims that Adam's creation was miraculous therefore the birth of Jesus is no more special, thus claiming that Jesus was not begotten of God. Sadly this Mufti fails to understand the difference.

Consider the difference between the first man Adam, and the last Adam (who is Jesus Christ).

1Corinthians 15:45"Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit."


And note the following verse showing that first comes the physical, and later comes the spiritual.

1Corinthians 15:46
"But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual."Thus we see that the first Adam symbolizes the physical man, which dies in sin, whilst the last Adam (Jesus Christ) is SPIRITUAL.

Jesus said in John 3:6

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."


This life we all live now is a battle about whether we choose to remain in the flesh (like the first Adam who died in sin) OR the spirit (being baptized into Christ, who is the last Adam, being spiritual).


Being born of God is to be born of the Spirit.

Christians are born of God, as defined in 1John 5:1.

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

[eesa the kiwi]

I'll repost my previous post as being new to this forum I seem to have done something to wrong which resulted in losing the paragraph spacing I originally had.


Thanks for offering this video. It helps me to understands better what the Islamic view of Jesus is.

I'll offer below what the Bible says, showing how Christianity and Islam contradict each other in regards to Jesus.

Because Islam denies that Jesus died on the cross for our sin, this makes Islam ANTI-CHRIST, as defined in 1John 2:22 in the Bible.
This shows that Islam denies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin and rose again.


This Mufti claims that Adam's creation was miraculous therefore the birth of Jesus is no more special, thus claiming that Jesus was not begotten of God. Sadly this Mufti fails to understand the difference.

Consider the difference between the first man Adam, and the last Adam (who is Jesus Christ).

1Corinthians 15:45"Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit."


And note the following verse showing that first comes the physical, and later comes the spiritual.

1Corinthians 15:46
"But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual."Thus we see that the first Adam symbolizes the physical man, which dies in sin, whilst the last Adam (Jesus Christ) is SPIRITUAL.

Jesus said in John 3:6

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."


This life we all live now is a battle about whether we choose to remain in the flesh (like the first Adam who died in sin) OR the spirit (being baptized into Christ, who is the last Adam, being spiritual).


Being born of God is to be born of the Spirit.

Christians are born of God, as defined in 1John 5:1.

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

www.islamreligion.com
nuff said

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Holy branch; and welcome to the forum,

I believe the intention of the video was for us to try and understand each other, rather than to make judgements against the other. I have been on this forum for eleven years now, and have come to respect the profound faith of my Muslim brothers and sisters here.

The same God hears all our prayers despite our differences, and I believe we are not in a position to make judgements against people, just because they do not worship as we do. I am a Catholic, and some people do not regard Catholics as Christians, so we have no hope of salvation either.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

[Holy branch]

Hi Eric H, and thanks for the welcome.

I did indeed find the video informative.
As for making judgments against each other, I disagree with your claim as in the video the Mufti did exactly that against those of the book who do not turn to Islam. I likewise shared what God says in the Bible about those who reject Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin.

Both that Mufti and I respectfully shared what Islam and Christianity teaches through scripture. It's important that we not conceal God's truth on such an important issue as everlasting life.

BTW, I'm an ex-Catholic so I know where you're coming from.
However I'm now a non-denominational Christian.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Holy branch;

It's important that we not conceal God's truth on such an important issue as everlasting life.

Agreed, but I feel we should use our truth to try and change ourselves, rather than to use our truth to try and change others. So I am not sure how we can use passages from Corinthians to persuade Muslims to change.

There is only one Jesus Christ, so there should only be one Christian denomination, sadly some Christians exclude other Christians from the hope of salvation, because we have it wrong. Salvation is a gift that possibly very few of us earn or deserve, it is a gift through the grace, mercy and forgiveness of our Lord.

There are so many struggles in this life, we need to help and encourage each other despite our differences.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship and understanding.

Eric

[Holy branch]

Hi Eric,

Quoting scripture such as 1Corinthians 15:45, etc, shows to Muslims God's truth on issues that that Mufti spoke on and misunderstood.
But ultimately it is the gospel of God's kingdom that we Christians preach, that is if you believe on Jesus, the Son of God who died for the sin of the world, then you shall have everlasting life.

God's will is that we believe on Jesus (John 6:40).
Jesus even tells us in John 16:9 that unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of. We see this also in Revelations 20:12 about judgement day. Christians should not withhold God's gospel from Muslims or anybody else.


You are correct, there is only one Christian denomination (1Corinthians 1:13), and that is the body of Christ, made up of Christians from various church labels. Having been a former Catholic I understand how it feels being in a church that is considered to have compromised so much on God's word. But I've since learned that God is not restricted to man's divisive labeling, hence why I'm non-denominational.

However, the gospel of God's kingdom should be shared, using even interfaith dialogue to attain this.

[ardianto]

@Holy branch

Greetings and peace be with you Holy branch.

Difference will not become a problem if we do not regard it as problem. But it will become a big trouble if we start thinking that the others have to agree with us.

Some of my maternal relatives are Protestant Christians, few of my friends are Christians, and I studied in Catholic elementary school. Yes, there is faith difference between me and those Christians. But we never regard this difference as problem. So, my relationship with them is always good.

As Muslim, of course, my belief on Jesus (pbuh) is different than yours as Christian. But is it a problem for us?.

:)

[Holy branch]

Hi ardianto,

Like you said differences "will become a big trouble if we start thinking that the others have to agree with us"

In any forum debate, etc, there will be those who respectfully disagree, and there will be those who take offence if you do not agree with them. I'm of the group that can respectfully disagree.

I see you are from Indonesia, and I have found that most Indonesians are respectful, friendly people.

An Indonesian Muslim friend told me that middle east Muslims are "crazy". I tend to agree with her as the middle eastern culture is a very volatile one. It's such extreme attitudes that has created the likes of Saudi Arabia, ISIS, HAMAS, UAE, etc.

I, like you, prefer honest debate and respectful disagreement.

[Born_Believer]

Hi ardianto,

Like you said differences "will become a big trouble if we start thinking that the others have to agree with us"

In any forum debate, etc, there will be those who respectfully disagree, and there will be those who take offence if you do not agree with them. I'm of the group that can respectfully disagree.

I see you are from Indonesia, and I have found that most Indonesians are respectful, friendly people.

An Indonesian Muslim friend told me that middle east Muslims are "crazy". I tend to agree with her as the middle eastern culture is a very volatile one. It's such extreme attitudes that has created the likes of Saudi Arabia, ISIS, HAMAS, UAE, etc.

I, like you, prefer honest debate and respectful disagreement.

So you've gone from talking about respect to disrespecting an entire region, its people, religion and culture. Oh and you clearly have very little understanding of the organisations you just mentioned. ISIS has about as much to do with muslims and middle eastern people as I do with the pope

[Al Sultan]

[/I]UAE

Really? UAE? what's wrong with UAE? it's currently the best Arab country (as voted by a lot people) the culture is very interesting,it's people are cool,and they are a young and small country but big by its history and impact on the Middle East,I see no problem with that country.

[Holy branch]

Hi,

I respectfully disagree with you, as does my Indonesian Muslim friend who told me that middle east Muslims are crazy.

The evidence clearly contradicts your claims.

As for Saudi Arabia, HAMAS, etc, it's clear there are many similarities they share with ISIS.

Death for apostasy, death for adultery, death for homosexuality, discrimination against non-muslim religions, etc are all Islamic principles that are practiced by Muslims in the middle east well beyond ISIS. Thus we see that claims that ISIS are not Muslims is clearly false as proven by the practices of states like Saudi Arabia, etc.

[Scimitar]

BTW, I'm an ex-Catholic so I know where you're coming from.
However I'm now a non-denominational Christian.

Doesn't that, by default - exclude you - from the fold of Christianity?

How do you "interpret" the bible?

Which "version" do you follow?

And how did you decide to paint each and every denomination of Christianity as "unworthy" of your interest? And from that, did you not once sit to think - I'm now a renegade Christian who stands alone, with no church?

How do you worship God? By prostrating? Or by putting hands together like a Hindu?

Hi,

I respectfully disagree with you, as does my Indonesian Muslim friend who told me that middle east Muslims are crazy.

Sure, painting an entire region of the earths inhabitants as crazy is justified just becuase your Indonesian "friend" told you so lol...

The evidence clearly contradicts your claims.

As for Saudi Arabia, HAMAS, etc, it's clear there are many similarities they share with ISIS.

Death for apostasy, death for adultery, death for homosexuality, discrimination against non-muslim religions, etc are all Islamic principles that are practiced by Muslims in the middle east well beyond ISIS. Thus we see that claims that ISIS are not Muslims is clearly false as proven by the practices of states like Saudi Arabia, etc.

Apostacy followed by Treason is punishable by death - at least in Islam we have one more requirement than the rest of the worlds nations for treason - being one must also leave the faith.

Whereas in the west, religous or nay - you commit treason and get caught - you die. Simple.

Not just this, but apostates in Judaism, and Christianity are to be put to death too, or was you willfully ignorant of this?

Deuteronomy, Chapter 13
KJV

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, 13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14 Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. 17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; 18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

You actually have no leg to stand on.

Oh, one last thing, the Holy Branch (your username) is the Olive Branch - which is a sign of peace and good will... irony is that you came here to argue and paint.

Scimi

[Holy branch]

Doesn't that, by default - exclude you - from the fold of Christianity?
How do you "interpret" the bible?
Which "version" do you follow?
And how did you decide to paint each and every denomination of Christianity as "unworthy" of your interest? And from that, did you not once sit to think - I'm now a renegade Christian who stands alone, with no church?
How do you worship God? By prostrating? Or by putting hands together like a Hindu?

Hi Scimi,

Being non denominational does not exclude one from Christianity. In fact when you read 1Corinthians 1:13 you'll see that being non denominational is required as implied in 1Corinthians 1:11-13 which speaks against divisions.

1Corinthians 1:11-13
For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

As for how Christians interpret God's word, that is by spiritual revelation.

1Corinthians 2:13-14
These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

Jesus is the only teacher for Christians.
Matthew 23:8
But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.

1John 2:27
But the anointing (Christ in us) which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.


Christians worship God in spirit and in truth.
John 4:23-24
But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Sure, painting an entire region of the earths inhabitants as crazy is justified just becuase your Indonesian "friend" told you so lol...

Actually my Indonesian Muslim friend made that comment about the middle east based on it's well known reputation for violence and strict adherence to Islamic practices.

Europe in particular has seen this by middle eastern rape culture by has been brought through the Muslim immigration.

I see likewise secular Muslims like Tarek Fatah of the Muslim Canadian Congress who called upon the Canadian senate to consider banning Muslim immigration from Muslim countries (such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc) known for fundamentalism.

Apostacy followed by Treason is punishable by death - at least in Islam we have one more requirement than the rest of the worlds nations for treason - being one must also leave the faith.

Whereas in the west, religous or nay - you commit treason and get caught - you die. Simple.

Clearly you share some of the same beliefs as ISIS, thus proving my point.

But I've seen such justifications before of Islam's death for apostasy law.
It describes a god who relies upon followers to enforce death penalties on his behalf.

Regarding the tactic of threatening death for apostasy, it's interesting to note that one of the world's most respected Sunni scholars, Yusuf al-Qaradawi, admitted in 2012 that if Muslims had "GOTTEN RID OF THE APOSTASY PUNISHMENT, ISLAM WOULDN'T EXIST TODAY".

But the one true God in Christianity is all powerful and it is He who separates believers from non believers on judgement day. Vengeance is mine says the Lord, Hebrews 10:29-31.
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Not just this, but apostates in Judaism, and Christianity are to be put to death too, or was you willfully ignorant of this?

Deuteronomy, Chapter 13
KJV

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, 13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14 Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. 17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; 18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

You actually have no leg to stand on.

Actually you fail to understand the Old Testament.
The Law of Moses was given to show to mankind (through the physical Jews) that we are unable to keep the principles of God, and thus we needed a savior.

Galatians 3:23,24
But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Oh, one last thing, the Holy Branch (your username) is the Olive Branch - which is a sign of peace and good will... irony is that you came here to argue and paint.
Scimi

Actually my choice of nickname, the Holy Branch, is to do with Christians being holy as we have been grafted into the olive tree, which is Jesus Christ (who is holy, thus making Christians holy, Romans 11:16).

And it is Christ Jesus who brought peace between mankind and God.

BTW, apart from your support for death for apostasy, do you also support death for adultery, insulting Mohammed, homosexuality?

[Delete.]

But the one true God in Christianity is all powerful and it is He who separates believers from non believers on judgement day.

Wait for Judgement Day. We are all waiting. It is not wise of you to speak without knowledge. Learn to differentiate between culture, traditions, and the teachings of Islam.

Please educate yourself before speaking about Islam any further.

[sister_39738]

Thanks for offering this video. It helps me to understands better what the Islamic view of Jesus is.

I'll offer below what the Bible says, showing how Christianity and Islam contradict each other in regards to Jesus.

Because Islam denies that Jesus died on the cross for our sin, this makes Islam ANTI-CHRIST, as defined in 1John 2:22 in the Bible. This shows that Islam denies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin and rose again. This Mufti claims that Adam's creation was miraculous therefore the birth of Jesus is no more special, thus claiming that Jesus was not begotten of God. Sadly this Mufti fails to understand the difference.Consider the difference between the first man Adam, and the last Adam (who is Jesus Christ).1Corinthians 15:45"Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit."And note the following verse showing that first comes the physical, and later comes the spiritual.1Corinthians 15:46"But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual."Thus we see that the first Adam symbolizes the physical man, which dies in sin, whilst the last Adam (Jesus Christ) is SPIRITUAL.Jesus said in John 3:6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."This life we all live now is a battle about whether we choose to remain in the flesh (like the first Adam who died in sin) OR the spirit (being baptized into Christ, who is the last Adam, being spiritual). Being born of God is to be born of the Spirit. Christians are born of God, as defined in 1John 5:1."Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

Islam is not anti christ. In fact we love christ and respect him as a prophet. We do not see him as the son of God or as equal to god or god himself. I want to ask you how can god be born and die? Secondly, what would have stopped Allah from destroying jesus? Lastly, if humans were unworthy of forgiveness(which is why christians think jesus was sacrificed) then why would Allah not destroy us? Do you really think Allah needs a third party?Is he incapable of forgiving us on his own? Also,I would encourage you to look up the discrepancies in the Bible, because there are many.The Bible has been changed countless times over the centuries and I dont just mean how it is worded. The actual stories have been changed. One great example of this is James Ussher,Archbishop of Armagh (primate of all Ireland). In the mid 1600s he was a respected scholar of the bible. He constructed a chronology of human and Earth existence in which he estimated that the Earth was created in 4004 B.C and was only a few thousand years old. This was taken as fact even though he has no evidence to back his claims up and was soon printed in the margins of the bible. Which is why some Christians falsely believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old (trust me I have met these people).
Another example is the old testament which is largely ignored by many christians. The image of Isa (Jesus) is completely altered because only after the new testament was Isa thought of as being equal to Allah or as Allah himself. However, Isa never claimed to be God. Look at a bible from the 1300's I promise you it would be completely different.

[Holy branch]

Islam is not anti christ. In fact we love christ and respect him as a prophet. We do not see him as the son of God or as equal to god or god himself. I want to ask you how can god be born and die?

Why do you claim that God is not all powerful and thus unable to manifest Himself as a physical man and die physically?

Islam is anti Christ as defined in 1John 2:22 in the Bible.
That is because Islam denies that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God who died for our sins and thus saving us.

Because of Christ's sacrifice Christians cannot be charged with sin (Romans 8:33, 1John 3:9). On judgement day Christians are seen as righteous, holy, perfect and sinless, and this is because of Christ's sacrifice.

But those who reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God who died for our sin, sadly they still remain in sin and thus on judgement day they will be condemned to Hell for their sin.

Secondly, what would have stopped Allah from destroying jesus?

I really don't know what your point is with this question.

Lastly, if humans were unworthy of forgiveness(which is why christians think jesus was sacrificed) then why would Allah not destroy us? Do you really think Allah needs a third party? Is he incapable of forgiving us on his own?

You fail to understand that the penalty for sin is death.
That's why Jesus died for our sin. And those who believe on him are baptized into his death on the cross (Romans 6:3) which means that our death penalty for sin has been paid when we believe on Jesus.

Only those who are perfect, righteous, holy and sinless may enter into God's kingdom.
And Christians have this covering of perfection (Hebrews 10:14), righteousness (Romans 4:5), holiness (Romans 11:16), sinlessness (1John 3:9) as we are one in Christ.

Also,I would encourage you to look up the discrepancies in the Bible, because there are many.The Bible has been changed countless times over the centuries and I dont just mean how it is worded. The actual stories have been changed. One great example of this is JamesUssher,Archbishop of Armagh (primate of all Ireland). In the mid 1600s he was a respected scholar of the bible. He constructed a chronology of human and Earth existence in which he estimated that the Earth was created in 4004 B.C and was only a few thousand years old. This was taken as fact even though he has no evidence to back his claims up and was soon printed in the margins of the bible. Which is why some Christians falsely believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old (trust me I have met these people).

I've seen these allegations before, just as with the claims about the many inaccuracies of the Quran, the destruction of the first Quran (Hasfah Codex) by later rival Muslim leaders, etc, etc. Such debates are go nowhere. I suggest you just keep to comparing the essential message of salvation.

Another example is the old testament which is largely ignored by many christians. The image of Isa (Jesus) is completely altered because only after the new testament was Isa thought of as being equal to Allah or as Allah himself. However, Isa never claimed to be God. Look at a bible from the 1300's I promise you it would be completely different.

God has various names in the Bible.


God called Himself “I AM”.
Exodus 3:14 in Old Testament.
“And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.”

Jesus called himself “I AM”, and the Jews sought to stone him to death for saying this.
John 8:58 in New Testament.
“Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Other Bible scriptures telling us that Jesus is God.


Isaiah 9:6 in Old Testament
For unto us a Child (Jesus Christ) is born,
Unto us a Son (Jesus Christ) is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED
Wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD,
EVERLASTING FATHER, Prince of Peace.

BTW, these Bible verses stating that Jesus is God are also found in the John Wycliffe Bible translation from the 1300's

[Holy branch]

I suggest you consider John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

[*charisma*]

"My indonesian Muslim friend" do you literally only have one Muslim friend? Who probably has never been to the middle east? And you paint everyone based on his opinion?? How's that make any sense? :hmm:

[Holy branch]

"My indonesian Muslim friend" do you literally only have one Muslim friend? Who probably has never been to the middle east? And you paint everyone based on his opinion?? How's that make any sense? :hmm:

Hi charisma,

I'll give some more detail for you to settle your concerns.

I have several Muslim friends.

It was an Indonesian Muslim friend who said middle east Muslims are crazy.

This was confirmed by the Muslim Tarek Fatah of the Muslim Canadian congress who addressed the Canadian Senate asking that Muslim immigration from countries (like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc) be stopped as such countries are fundamentalists pushing Sharia law.

BTW, do you support Islam's death for apostasy, adultery, homosexuality, insulting Mohammed?

[*charisma*]

Hi charisma,

I'll give some more detail for you to settle your concerns.

I have several Muslim friends.

It was an Indonesian Muslim friend who said middle east Muslims are crazy.

This was confirmed by the Muslim Tarek Fatah of the Muslim Canadian congress who addressed the Canadian Senate asking that Muslim immigration from countries (like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc) be stopped as such countries are fundamentalists pushing Sharia law.

BTW, do you support Islam's death for apostasy, adultery, homosexuality, insulting Mohammed?

Ok as an American (born and raised) currently living in Saudi Arabia, and having traveled to the majority of the Middle eastern countries, I can tell you that your perceptions and your friend's of what you think the Middle East is incorrect. However you are all entitled to believe what you want, and that's fine.

The levant middle eastern countries are a lot more liberal than the gulf countries. So there's no way you can paint them all with the same color.

BTW, do you support Islam's death for apostasy, adultery, homosexuality, insulting Mohammed?

I support Islam, period. But to understand the punishments in Islam, you have to understand Shariah.

For the record there's a difference between being gay and being openly gay; Committing adultery in secret and committing adultery openly or exposing your own sins; disbelieving in Islam and spreading hatred towards islam; etc. etc. It's not all black and white as you think it is. So for example, in Saudi Arabia, I've seen gay people walking around..I know they're gay, but they're not committing any acts of indecency as is encouraged in the western countries so no one really cares. There are also a lot of nonMuslims here who have lived here for years and have preferred to raise their kids here as well because the west is becoming such a corrupt society.

And if you're wondering, there is all of those things and more in every single country, whether it is secular or religious. Follow the rules of the land and everyone on that land should be fine.

[Holy branch]

For the record there's a difference between being gay and being openly gay; Committing adultery in secret and committing adultery openly or exposing your own sins; disbelieving in Islam and spreading hatred towards islam; etc. etc. It's not all black and white as you think it is. So for example, in Saudi Arabia, I've seen gay people walking around..I know they're gay, but they're not committing any acts of indecency as is encouraged in the western countries so no one really cares. There are also a lot of nonMuslims here who have lived here for years and have preferred to raise their kids here as well because the west is becoming such a corrupt society.

And if you're wondering, there is all of those things and more in every single country, whether it is secular or religious. Follow the rules of the land and everyone on that land should be fine.

So what is the point of Sharia law when it only punishes those who are allegedly openly gay, adulterous, apostate, etc.

If Sharia law calls for the death penalty for such acts then what you describe of Saudi Arabia is that they are compromising on Islam's law.

From what you describe it almost sounds like Islam's Allah does not care (or fails to see) if someone is secretly or subtly apostate, gay, adulterous, etc.

Can you explain this dilemma in Saudi Arabia further?

BTW, I do agree that Western society is getting corrupt.
It comes from the Socialist/Communist Left who dominate the mainstream media, politics and the education system.
Their aim is to create a borderless world under a one world government.

[*charisma*]

So what is the point of Sharia law when it only punishes those who are allegedly openly gay, adulterous, apostate, etc.

Because people who are open about their sins are spreading mischief when they know that their sins are forbidden in Islam. Instead of feeling ashamed about their sins and seeking sincere forgiveness and even looking for ways they could remain steadfast, they want their sinful lives to be accepted as a normal part of society.

If Sharia law calls for the death penalty for such acts then what you describe of Saudi Arabia is that they are compromising on Islam's law.

Again, it's not all black and white. Now, for example adultery ruins families. If a man commits adultery openly where he is seen by many witnesses, he gets the death penalty. If he commits adultery in secret..who's going to know about it for him to be punished?? His judgement is now with Allah. Secondly even Saudi Arabia as conservative as it is, is not practicing sharia law 100%.

From what you describe it almost sounds like Islam's Allah does not care (or fails to see) if someone is secretly or subtly apostate, gay, adulterous, etc.

"Islam's Allah" ?? ^o) Your statement isn't making any sense here. What is your assumption?

[sister_39738]

Why do you claim that God is not all powerful and thus unable to manifest Himself as a physical man and die physically?

Islam is anti Christ as defined in 1John 2:22 in the Bible.
That is because Islam denies that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God who died for our sins and thus saving us.

Because of Christ's sacrifice Christians cannot be charged with sin (Romans 8:33, 1John 3:9). On judgement day Christians are seen as righteous, holy, perfect and sinless, and this is because of Christ's sacrifice.

But those who reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God who died for our sin, sadly they still remain in sin and thus on judgement day they will be condemned to Hell for their sin.




I really don't know what your point is with this question.




You fail to understand that the penalty for sin is death.
That's why Jesus died for our sin. And those who believe on him are baptized into his death on the cross (Romans 6:3) which means that our death penalty for sin has been paid when we believe on Jesus.

Only those who are perfect, righteous, holy and sinless may enter into God's kingdom.
And Christians have this covering of perfection (Hebrews 10:14), righteousness (Romans 4:5), holiness (Romans 11:16), sinlessness (1John 3:9) as we are one in Christ.





I've seen these allegations before, just as with the claims about the many inaccuracies of the Quran, the destruction of the first Quran (Hasfah Codex) by later rival Muslim leaders, etc, etc. Such debates are go nowhere. I suggest you just keep to comparing the essential message of salvation.




God has various names in the Bible.


God called Himself “I AM”.
Exodus 3:14 in Old Testament.
“And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.”

Jesus called himself “I AM”, and the Jews sought to stone him to death for saying this.
John 8:58 in New Testament.
“Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Other Bible scriptures telling us that Jesus is God.


Isaiah 9:6 in Old Testament
For unto us a Child (Jesus Christ) is born,
Unto us a Son (Jesus Christ) is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED
Wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD,
EVERLASTING FATHER, Prince of Peace.

BTW, these Bible verses stating that Jesus is God are also found in the John Wycliffe Bible translation from the 1300's

So God can be born?God can die?This makes sense to you?If God has no beginning or ending how can he die or be born?The penalty for sin is just punishment. God is merciful and if you simply ask you will be forgiven. The best thing about Islam is that I have direct access to Allah. I can ask HIM for forgiveness. I also don't know why you are quoting a scripture to me when the Bible has been changed more times than a woman dyes her hair. And I can promise you there are no additions, subtractions, or alterations in the Quran. I can pick up one from Egypt or Saudi Arabia or even one from the 1800's and it will still be the same. The Quran has never been altered because we have preserved it unlike christians who readily change the Bible to fit their ideas (like many christians in America are know saying that homosexuality isn't a sin). No Islamic scholar has ever changed the Quran. If you think differently please provide me with a scholar or surah that proves me wrong. I can provide you with five things that have been changed in the Bible since the Dark Ages. Also, God has 99 names, one of them being Allah. The Quran urges people to seek knowledge and not just go on faith. So if you don't believe I am correct search for yourself, I did. That's how I found out that the Bible had been altered. How can you base your life on scripture that has been altered? Once again, if you can prove me wrong then do so.

[sister herb]

From what you describe it almost sounds like Islam's Allah does not care (or fails to see) if someone is secretly or subtly apostate, gay, adulterous, etc.

If they avoid punishment at this world, they can wait to face it at the Judgement Day. Claiming that the God fails to see something shows from you deep disunderstanding about the power of the God who is all-powerful.

[sister_39738]

I suggest you consider John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

I suggest you watch this on how one of the oldest biblical codex has been altered. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2zvpA7xUi4

[Holy branch]

If a man commits adultery openly where he is seen by many witnesses, he gets the death penalty. If he commits adultery in secret..who's going to know about it for him to be punished?? His judgement is now with Allah. Secondly even Saudi Arabia as conservative as it is, is not practicing sharia law 100%.

"Islam's Allah" ?? ^o) Your statement isn't making any sense here. What is your assumption?

My point is that Islam's Allah seems to have 2 different levels of punishment.

1: He's not bothering with the physical death penalty in this physical life for apostates, adulterers, gays, etc providing they are subtle about committing such offences under Sharia. This is because those enforcing Sharia law missed the actual offences, in spite of the fact that you say that you can see who these secretive/subtle offenders are (such as gays). So these offenders only get judgement in the after life, in spite of their persistent gayness or apostasy, etc.

2: But anyone who does it publicly, then they not only get the death penalty from Sharia courts here on Earth acting on behalf of Islam's Allah, but then they also get judgement in the after life too. That is they get a double punishment, one from man enforcing Sharia law, and one from Islam's Allah in the after life.

It seems unfair that the secretive/subtle persistent offenders ( in spite of the fact that you can see who the gay people are, for example) get a lessor penalty than those who do it openly.

BTW, I can't imagine anyone doing these offences openly when the death penalty applies, thus such penalties only encourage people to be secretive/subtle in their offences.

But what you described about the deliberate disregard of obviously gay people who are secretive about their lifestyle, suggests that Muslims in Saudi Arabia are complicit in these offences because they knowingly allow such offences to occur simply because they are hidden.

So if Saudi Arabia is not practicing Sharia 100% are they disobedient? What is the penalty for their disobedience?

[sister_39738]

So what is the point of Sharia law when it only punishes those who are allegedly openly gay, adulterous, apostate, etc.

If Sharia law calls for the death penalty for such acts then what you describe of Saudi Arabia is that they are compromising on Islam's law.


From what you describe it almost sounds like Islam's Allah does not care (or fails to see) if someone is secretly or subtly apostate, gay, adulterous, etc.

Can you explain this dilemma in Saudi Arabia further?

BTW, I do agree that Western society is getting corrupt.
It comes from the Socialist/Communist Left who dominate the mainstream media, politics and the education system.
Their aim is to create a borderless world under a one world government.

Shariah law is for here on Earth.There is still punishment in the after life for not repenting.As far as Saudi Arabia,it only counts for 20% of muslims. No single Islamic country should represent all of Islam. At the end of the day people are prone to commit sin and one of those sins is adding on to Shariah law.Also, I would advise you not to speak on Shariah law unless you know it.Without knowledge you would not know the difference between shariah law and what corrupt men have added on or what the media tells you. Seek knowledge. Even if you are not muslim seek knowledge.

[sister_39738]

My point is that Islam's Allah seems to have 2 different levels of punishment.

1: He's not bothering with the physical death penalty in this physical life for apostates, adulterers, gays, etc providing they are subtle about committing such offences under Sharia. This is because those enforcing Sharia law missed the actual offences, in spite of the fact that you say that you can see who these secretive/subtle offenders are (such as gays). So these offenders only get judgement in the after life, in spite of their persistent gayness or apostasy, etc.

2: But anyone who does it publicly, then they not only get the death penalty from Sharia courts here on Earth acting on behalf of Islam's Allah, but then they also get judgement in the after life too. That is they get a double punishment, one from man enforcing Sharia law, and one from Islam's Allah in the after life.

It seems unfair that the secretive/subtle persistent offenders ( in spite of the fact that you can see who the gay people are, for example) get a lessor penalty than those who do it openly.

BTW, I can't imagine anyone doing these offences openly when the death penalty applies, thus such penalties only encourage people to be secretive/subtle in their offences.

But what you described about the deliberate disregard of obviously gay people who are secretive about their lifestyle, suggests that Muslims in Saudi Arabia are complicit in these offences because they knowingly allow such offences to occur simply because they are hidden.

So if Saudi Arabia is not practicing Sharia 100% are they disobedient? What is the penalty for their disobedience?

A. Allah could very well kill someone for committing haram sexual acts.
B. Shariah law is a justice system for Earth. Islam is a complete way of life.
C.Shariah death penalty is only enforceable if they do not repent.
D. The penalty is no lessened because humans can't see it because Allah sees all. Humans are prone to mistakes, God is not. He can however, hide your shame from the world if you don't make it public (one of his many merciful attributes).

[sister_39738]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2zvpA7xUi4
One of the oldest biblical codex that has been altered.

[Holy branch]

So God can be born?God can die?This makes sense to you?If God has no beginning or ending how can he die or be born?

Again you are in effect saying that God is not almighty and thus cannot manifest Himself as a man.

But the Bible says that God is Spirit, and He is everlasting.
God is a 3 part being (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), just as man is a 3 part being (Soul, body, spirit).

Jesus was God manifest in the flesh (1Timothy 3:16).
This physical manifestation of God is the Alpha (the firstborn of the dead in this physical world, Colossians 1:18), and he is the Omega (the last sacrifice under the law).

The penalty for sin is just punishment. God is merciful and if you simply ask you will be forgiven. The best thing about Islam is that I have direct access to Allah. I can ask HIM for forgiveness. I also don't know why you are quoting a scripture to me when the Bible has been changed more times than a woman dyes her hair. And I can promise you there are no additions, subtractions, or alterations in the Quran. I can pick up one from Egypt or Saudi Arabia or even one from the 1800's and it will still be the same. The Quran has never been altered because we have preserved it unlike christians who readily change the Bible to fit their ideas (like many christians in America are know saying that homosexuality isn't a sin). No Islamic scholar has ever changed the Quran. If you think differently please provide me with a scholar or surah that proves me wrong. I can provide you with five things that have been changed in the Bible since the Dark Ages. Also, God has 99 names, one of them being Allah. The Quran urges people to seek knowledge and not just go on faith. So if you don't believe I am correct search for yourself, I did. That's how I found out that the Bible had been altered. How can you base your life on scripture that has been altered? Once again, if you can prove me wrong then do so.

And as I pointed out to you Muslims remain in sin as they're anti Christ rejecting Jesus Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin.

As for the Quran, considering that the original Quran, the Hafsah Codex, was destroyed and replaced with a different Quran by a later rival Muslim leadership, and considering the contradictory recitations of it before the Quran was eventually written, and considering the lack of the typical historical evidence that is normally expected for renowned leaders like Mohammed, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXf7uP9lhE8
it's clear Islam has no leg to stand on.

These inconvenient facts are all available on the web if you want to look further.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3CfQlvivt4.


Both the Old Testament and the New Testament show that sin leads to death.

But for Christians there is no sin that can be charged against us (Romans 8:33, 1John 3:9, John 8:36), thanks to Christ's sacrifice.
This is the only way one can escape the death penalty for sin.

BTW, I note your silence over the proof I showed from both the Old Testament and the New Testament that Jesus Christ is God.

Anyway folks, I'll be back again tomorrow as it's late night here.

[sister_39738]

Again you are in effect saying that God is not almighty and thus cannot manifest Himself as a man.

But the Bible says that God is Spirit, and He is everlasting.
God is a 3 part being (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), just as man is a 3 part being (Soul, body, spirit).

Jesus was God manifest in the flesh (1Timothy 3:16).
This physical manifestation of God is the Alpha (the firstborn of the dead in this physical world, Colossians 1:18), and he is the Omega (the last sacrifice under the law).




And as I pointed out to you Muslims remain in sin as they're anti Christ rejecting Jesus Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin.

As for the Quran, considering that the original Quran, the Hafsah Codex, was destroyed and replaced with a different Quran by a later rival Muslim leadership, and considering the contradictory recitations of it before the Quran was eventually written, and considering the lack of the typical historical evidence that is normally expected for renowned leaders like Mohammed, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXf7uP9lhE8
it's clear Islam has no leg to stand on.

These inconvenient facts are all available on the web if you want to look further.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3CfQlvivt4.


Both the Old Testament and the New Testament show that sin leads to death.

But for Christians there is no sin that can be charged against us (Romans 8:33, 1John 3:9, John 8:36), thanks to Christ's sacrifice.
This is the only way one can escape the death penalty for sin.

BTW, I note your silence over the proof I showed from both the Old Testament and the New Testament that Jesus Christ is God.

Anyway folks, I'll be back again tomorrow as it's late night here.

What I am telling you is to compare a quran or bible today and a quran and bible of 200 years ago or one from another country and see what you find. Find the oldest quran (islamic countries have some of the best preserved libraries)and see what you find. Jihad watch is known for being islamophobic and have a bias. How about you go to a library at any denominational university that has a quran and compare it to another. Not an internet source that can't provide you with sources of their 'information'. You trust a source that can provide you with no verified document,codex, or account? Sounds a lot like 'going on faith'.
What separates God from man? Mistake, mortality, and the fact you would not be able to stare upon his face outside of heaven. So if your God was born and did what every human does ****, eat, sleep, cry, get beaten up and die, What makes him more powerful than you? How can he destroy or reward you if he has no more power than you? Am I telling you God cant die. Yes, because he is infinite with no ending or beginning. So if Jesus is your God and he died then your God is dead.

[sister_39738]

Again you are in effect saying that God is not almighty and thus cannot manifest Himself as a man.

But the Bible says that God is Spirit, and He is everlasting.
God is a 3 part being (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), just as man is a 3 part being (Soul, body, spirit).

Jesus was God manifest in the flesh (1Timothy 3:16).
This physical manifestation of God is the Alpha (the firstborn of the dead in this physical world, Colossians 1:18), and he is the Omega (the last sacrifice under the law).




And as I pointed out to you Muslims remain in sin as they're anti Christ rejecting Jesus Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin.

As for the Quran, considering that the original Quran, the Hafsah Codex, was destroyed and replaced with a different Quran by a later rival Muslim leadership, and considering the contradictory recitations of it before the Quran was eventually written, and considering the lack of the typical historical evidence that is normally expected for renowned leaders like Mohammed, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXf7uP9lhE8
it's clear Islam has no leg to stand on.

These inconvenient facts are all available on the web if you want to look further.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3CfQlvivt4.


Both the Old Testament and the New Testament show that sin leads to death.

But for Christians there is no sin that can be charged against us (Romans 8:33, 1John 3:9, John 8:36), thanks to Christ's sacrifice.
This is the only way one can escape the death penalty for sin.

BTW, I note your silence over the proof I showed from both the Old Testament and the New Testament that Jesus Christ is God.

Anyway folks, I'll be back again tomorrow as it's late night here.

The sunnah also backs up Quran,you should research that too.For yourself, by actually reading it, not going on JihadWatch.

[Holy branch]

So if your God was born and did what every human does ****, eat, sleep, cry, get beaten up and die, What makes him more powerful than you? How can he destroy or reward you if he has no more power than you? Am I telling you God cant die. Yes, because he is infinite with no ending or beginning. So if Jesus is your God and he died then your God is dead.

Like I said before, you deny that God almighty is all powerful and well able to manifest Himself as the man Jesus Christ to die for our sins.

Hebrews 2:14-18
Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.
Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

For your own sake you should not reject God's gift of salvation.

[Scimitar]

Like I said before, you deny that God almighty is all powerful and well able to manifest Himself as the man Jesus Christ to die for our sins

absolute hogwash.

"God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Numbers 23:19


"And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for He is not a man, that he should have regret." 1 Samuel 15:29


"I will not execute my burning anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God and not a man, the Holy One in your midst, and I will not come in wrath." Hosea 11:9

Not a man, not a man, not a man.

Abrogations borne of corruptions in the canonisation process, which when investigated lead us to the Mithraic origin of the Trinity by the pragmatic hand of Constantine, reveal much.

Your leg? Shaky.

Scimi

[Scimitar]

I suggest you consider John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Should he not have said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to me except through me." if he is God, instead?

Who was Jesus pbuh praying to in the garden of Gethsemony?

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/7b/7bdfb...c2716b4bbb.jpg

Click^

Can you appreciate how ridiculous trinitarian theology is?

Scimi

[Cherub786]

Christian: It is possible for God to become a human being

Muslim: It is rationally impossible for God to be a man

Christian: God is omnipotent, it is possible for God to become a man as God can do anything

Muslim: If God becomes a man, He ceases to be God, as God and man are mutually exclusive

Christian: God is omnipotent, it is possible for God to become a man while remaining God also

Muslim: If you are right, it is possible for God to tell lies and deceive. It is possible for God to create another God who is more powerful than Him. It is possible for God to create a rock so large and heavy that even He cannot lift it, etc.

Christian: Yes all of these things are possible, but this does not negate our argument that it is possible for God to become a man while remaining God

Muslim: If it is possible for God to lie, then it is possible for your faith (Christianity) to be based on lies

Christian has no choice but to admit this possibility

Holy Branch's next contention: "The Son of God was incarnated as a man to die for all the sins of mankind"

Muslim: Did Jesus die for all of mankind's sins or only some of them?

Christian: Jesus died for all mankind's sins

Muslim: Then it is inconsequential if I become a Christian or not, since I am forgiven and granted salvation by your own admission

Christian: No, in order for you to be saved, you have to confess verbally that Jesus died for your sins

Muslim: Did Jesus himself ever make this a condition of salvation?

Christian: There is no reported statement to this effect from Jesus himself, but some other people said this

Muslim: Is it a sin to reject that Jesus died for your sins?

Christian: Umm....well yes it is a sin to reject that Jesus died for your sins, maybe the greatest sin?

Muslim: Well then if I am guilty of that sin, Jesus died for that sin of mine as well (according to you), so I am granted salvation nonetheless. Isn't salvation a free gift anyways? There is no condition

Christian: Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth and the life"

Muslim: We already believe this. But where did Jesus say one must confess that he died for our sins in order to attain salvation?


Islamic Belief: Salvation is subject to believing in and worshiping One God (Allah) only and not worshiping any other god besides Him

Christian: Every human being is a sinner. The wages of sin are death. The only way to be saved from sin is for someone pure and untainted by sin to voluntarily sacrifice his life to atone for our sins

Muslim: Is it possible for God to forgive sin without the need of a blood sacrifice?

Christian: Yes it is possible. But justice demands that a crime be punished or atoned for.

Muslim: If God decides to forgive someone out of His grace without any atonement, is God being unjust?

Christian: Yes it is unjust, because sin has to be atoned for, one way or another.

Muslim: Sin is a crime against God because it is disobedience to God. Are you saying a person cannot forgive an offense that was committed against himself?

Christian: Justice demands that crime must be atoned for. God has instituted this system of justice.

Muslim: Is it possible for God to forgive sin out of His grace without the need for atonement?

Christian: Yes it is possible.

Muslim: Is it just for an innocent person to be sacrificed to atone for the sin of a guilty person?

Christian: It is just if that innocent person does so voluntarily.

Muslim: So all the sins of mankind can be transferred to a "scapegoat" and thus mankind is absolved of responsibility for all their sins?

Christian: Yes!

Muslim: Is suffering a few hours on the cross and then dying a sufficient atonement for all the millions and millions of sins that have been committed by mankind throughout the ages?

Christian: Well it doesn't seem that bad actually, sounds like a good deal lol

Christian: As a Muslim, your religion also teaches you that sins can be expiated through a blood sacrifice of an animal

Muslim: Yes, but the Qur'an says it is not the blood or flesh of the animal that reaches God, it is the piety of the one who sacrifices, meaning his intention to please God

Muslim: Were those who put Jesus on the cross committing an act of piety?

Christian: No, they were not. But Jesus prayed to God on the cross that they be forgiven.

Muslim: Then how can it be said that Jesus was put on the cross by mankind as a sin offering?

Christian: Well God Himself sent Jesus to die for our sins.

Muslim: In other words, man did not offer Jesus as an atonement for our sins, but God imposed this on us as a free gift for our salvation?

Christian: Yes!

Muslim: So your analogy with the Islamic and Judaic practices of animal sacrifice to expiate for sin is null and void. We sacrifice animals as an act of piety and God looks at our heart and our intention to please Him, so He forgives our sin.

Christian: God loves us all, and so He wants us to be absolved of sin, so He sent His begotten son Jesus to die as an atonement for our sins.

Muslim: If God loves us all that He wants us to be absolved from sin, why not just forgive all our sins?

Christian: A gift has to be accepted. By denying Jesus died on the cross for your sins you are rejecting God's free gift.

Muslim: Is it in God's power to give someone salvation without that person accepting God's gift?

Christian: Yes it is possible.

Muslim: Then why would God not do so if He loves us?

Christian: I don't know.


There are so many logical fallacies with the Christian doctrine of atonement, I hope this brief dialogue opened your mind to at least some of them.

[Al Sultan]

May I ask why are you so quite when Scimitar smacked you with these verses?

"God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Numbers 23:19


"And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for He is not a man, that he should have regret." 1 Samuel 15:29


"I will not execute my burning anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God and not a man, the Holy One in your midst, and I will not come in wrath." Hosea 11:9

You seem to avoid him.

The thing is you are adopting a man made doctrine which some Christians don't even agree on, and the doctrine isn't even logical, some would say it's "monotheistic"

God is ONE and only ONE, and Jesus never claimed that he is God.

[Cherub786]

Sadly both you and Scimi are confirming God's warning that the natural man (that's you guys) will think God's word is foolish and thus you will not receive spiritual understanding from God (1Corinthians 2:14).
Jesus said that he deliberately spoke in parables so that only those who are believers will know the mysteries of God's kingdom, whilst non believers will only see it as a parable so that "Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand." (Luke 8:10).

If you want to receive spiritual understanding from the one true God, then you should repent, leave anti Christ Islam, and instead believe on Jesus, the Son of God who died for your sin.

Lol, you failed to prove your beliefs from the words of Jesus himself. Jesus said repeatedly that he is the “son of man” not the “son of God”. Jesus was a human being, can you prove he was God?
If God can be killed on a cross that isn’t much of a “God”.
The First Commandment says: “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”. Christianity breaks the very first Commandment of God. If you believe Jesus is God then you simply have no hope of salvation because you are violating God’s very first and most important Commandment.

[Scimitar]

Sadly both you and Scimi are confirming God's warning that the natural man (that's you guys) will think God's word is foolish and thus you will not receive spiritual understanding from God (1Corinthians 2:14).
Jesus said that he deliberately spoke in parables so that only those who are believers will know the mysteries of God's kingdom, whilst non believers will only see it as a parable so that "Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand." (Luke 8:10).

Honestly, clutching to the idea that you have more of Jesus' (pbuh) sayings in your Christian tradition than we do in Islam, is hubris.

We here, could inundate you with "parables" Jesus spoke which survived into the the middle east than you can with your conflicting "versions" of him do.

The following sayings of Jesus from traditional Arabic sources are excerpted from Walk on Water, a book by Shaikh Hamza Yusuf: https://sandala.org/wp-content/uploa...k-on-Water.pdf That's just a few pages. The whole book is full of them.

That's just one book.

So don't go talking to me of parables, lol.

Clearly, you have not thought this through.

If you want to receive spiritual understanding from the one true God, then you should repent, leave anti Christ Islam, and instead believe on Jesus, the Son of God who died for your sin.

Islam embraces the idea of the Christ as Messiah and is the only religion besides your own which agrees with you on this, did you not know this? or are you just willfully ignorant?

Calling Muslims the Anti-Christ is just, well, idiotic. But I'll entertain you a little longer.

What else you got?

Scimi

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Holy branch;

When you repent, leave anti Christ Islam, and instead believe on Jesus, then you shall receive everlasting life, and your eyes and ears will be open to receive spiritual understanding.

The Jews are God's chosen people, Christians are chosen by Christ, and in Islam, Allah chooses whom he wills.

Did the same God make a mistake, when he chose us through what seems to us as diversity?

In the spirit of praying to 'One God'

Eric

[Scimitar]

Actually all I'm going to offer is the gospel of God's kingdom, as that is what God commanded.

Unfortunately I get caught up in debates like this and go beyond the gospel into exposing the false allegations of Islam's propaganda, etc.
But as God's word says, to the natural man (the lost) God's word will be foolishness (1Corinthinas 2:14).

And as Jesus said in Matthew 13: 13-15
Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah (Isaiah 6:8-10) is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them."

You have heard the gospel of God's kingdom.
Believe on Jesus, the Son of God who died for your sin.

When you repent, leave anti Christ Islam, and instead believe on Jesus, then you shall receive everlasting life, and your eyes and ears will be open to receive spiritual understanding.

It's quite a shame that you remain unaware of how Arabs are the inherited masters of allegory, parable and analogy. Meanwhile, you remain uni-lingual following a translated version of a scripture.

Maybe you should attempt to learn about Muslims and Islam with an open mind and heart and trust in God that He won't let you be deceived, but rather, open to the truth you do not yet know.

Scimi

[Delete.]

@Holy branch According to you, and Allah knows best, Jesus peace be upon him said:

To wear hijab (head and body covering): "For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered." Corinthians 11:6

Not to eat the flesh of swine: "and the swine, though he divide the hoof and is cloven-footed, yet he cheweth not the cud, he is unclean to you." Leviticus 11:7

I have yet to find one Christian who follows these teachings. I pray you and your family do, or you accusing people of being "anti-Christ" would be very ironic.

The impression that you are showing is that Christianity is a buffet, where you pick and choose what to take and what to ignore. Fear your Lord, and fear the Day you will be judged.

[Al Sultan]

leave anti Christ Islam

Brother Scimitar just clarified to you that we Muslims aint anti christs and Islam isn't anti Christ....
:facepalm::slap:

May Allah save us from this disastrous world.

[Holy branch]

Greetings and peace be with you Holy branch;

The Jews are God's chosen people, Christians are chosen by Christ, and in Islam, Allah chooses whom he wills.

Did the same God make a mistake, when he chose us through what seems to us as diversity?

In the spirit of praying to 'One God'

Eric

Hi Eric,

Romans 2:28,29 tells us how a true Jew is determined.
Consider Jeremiah 9:26 in describing physical Israel.

Christians, and physical Jews who have been grafted back (Romans 11:17-24) into the Olive tree (Jesus Christ), are the true Jews.

[talibilm]

Thanks for offering this video. It helps me to understands better what the Islamic view of Jesus is.

I'll offer below what the Bible says, showing how Christianity and Islam contradict each other in regards to Jesus.

Because Islam denies that Jesus died on the cross for our sin, this makes Islam ANTI-CHRIST, as defined in 1John 2:22 in the Bible.
This shows that Islam denies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin and rose again.

What does Christ mean?

“Christ” is not Jesus’ last name (surname). “Christ” comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning “anointed one” or “chosen one.” This is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Mashiach, or “Messiah.” “Jesus” is the Lord’s human name given to Mary by the angel Gabriel (Luke 1:31). “Christ” is His title, signifying Jesus was sent from God to be a King and Deliverer (see Daniel 9:25; Isaiah 32:1). “Jesus Christ” means “Jesus the Messiah” or “Jesus the Anointed One.”

So Jesus dying on the Cross & Christ have no relationship as you claim

So you have slandered Islam without even knowing the meaning of Christ when Its Islam the only religion ( outside christianity ) which glorified Jesus as the Messiah ( Isa Masih) as Prophesied here in John 16:12-14

"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.…"He will glorify Me, for He will take ofMine and will disclose it to you.…


after along gap of 600 years when Jesus and his mother were blasphemed by Jews & others for bearing a child without a father that had always kept friction between the two semitic relgions (read History) that receded after the Arrival of Noble Quran. The Noble Quran TESTIFIED (an outsider) for the first time that Maryam was Chaste and Jesus was pure and was born miraculously and even Islam united both of you Jews & Chrsitians by honoring with the title '' The People of the Book " (ahle Kitab ) an outsider giving RECOGNITION OF TRUTH THAT YOU BOTH WERE FROM THE CREATOR OF THE WORLDS for the first time that made you people to name your books as Old & New Testaments. Before this you both blamed each other alleging for copying scriptures from each other.

This Mufti claims that Adam's creation was miraculous therefore the birth of Jesus is no more special, thus claiming that Jesus was not begotten of God. Sadly this Mufti fails to understand the difference.

First you have understand the greatness of THE Creator who had created you and all that exists. When our Creator blessed our Fertile Mary with Esa ( Jesus ) PBUH do not forget he also blessed our INFERTILE Sarah at 90 with Isaac and Zacharia's (about 90 years +) INFERTILE wife with Yahya, John the Baptist which are more miraculous in my view since infertile people stand no chance of giving a Birth unlike Mary who was still fertile. So Our Creator is capable of doing EVERYTHING IMPOSSIBLE in our human sight and you should never doubt it who had brought you into existence when you did not exist some decades ago. See the glorious verses of Allah on this issue.

Noble Quran 19:88-92

They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"

''Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! ''

'' At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,''


''That they should invoke a son for (Allah) the Most Gracious.

For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) the Most Gracious that He should beget a son.''

''There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Beneficent (Allah) as a slave. ''

Consider the difference between the first man Adam, and the last Adam (who is Jesus Christ).

1Corinthians 15:45"Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit."


And note the following verse showing that first comes the physical, and later comes the spiritual.

1Corinthians 15:46
"But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual."Thus we see that the first Adam symbolizes the physical man, which dies in sin, whilst the last Adam (Jesus Christ) is SPIRITUAL.

Jesus said in John 3:6

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."


This life we all live now is a battle about whether we choose to remain in the flesh (like the first Adam who died in sin) OR the spirit (being baptized into Christ, who is the last Adam, being spiritual).


Being born of God is to be born of the Spirit.

Christians are born of God, as defined in 1John 5:1.

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God"

I feel pity for the Christians who took those verses which can mean anything 50/50 EVEN AS THE BASIS FOR THEIR MAIN ARTICLES OF FAITH like the verse '' I and My Father are One '' which is clearly explained by Mr Deedat here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTT5BiS9kxk


and its the reason for the 41000 denominations Chrsitianity but still never pay heed to some verses of NT that shed light like this

JOHN 2O :16-17
She turned and said to him in Aramaic, “Rabbouni” (which means Teacher).
17 Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold on to me, for I haven’t yet gone up to my Father. Go to my brothers and sisters and tell them,
‘I’m going up to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

[Scimitar]

Hi ___

Like I showed from scripture in previous posts, a natural person will not understand God's word.

You'r all over the place. Your argument hinges on a weakly invested idea of a "natural person". No doubt, you consider yourself "natural". Which makes us all "unnatural". But by which physical deformity or spiritually inept epistemology do we become unnatural? According to your bibles definition, anyone who denies the Christ, Messiah - who is Jesus pbuh is "unnatural". Well - you're looking at the wrong people for that lol.

Not that I agree with the definition of "natural person" you keep pushing out here, as if it is lending your point any weight - it really isn't.

You're just looking like a fundamentally incapable Christian now.

Only as a Christian will God give you the spiritual understanding for His word, as Jesus himself said.

Jesus pbuh was not a Christian. He was a Jew. He didn't even speak the word "Christian" and the word wasn't even in use during the time Jesus pbuh was on this earth. So again, you are talking out of your rear end.

The first use of the word "Christians" in your religion is after Jesus pbuh left the world. It was Paul (Saul of Tarsis - the roman hitman who became an apostle who never even met Jesus, the very same Paul who was kicked out by the followers of Jesus and the Jews, and was given protection from the pagan Roman and told by them to "preach to the gentiles" because the Gentiles knew no better lol) And Paul invented the term "Christian" in Acts 11:26c

So again, Jesus never used the word "Christian" hence - your premise...

Only as a Christian will God give you the spiritual understanding for His word, as Jesus himself said.

...just collapses.

Holy Branch, are you sure you want to do this? You seem happy with your religion.

Conversing with me, will leave you rather, unhappy.

Scimi

[Scimitar]

Brother Scimitar just clarified to you that we Muslims aint anti christs and Islam isn't anti Christ....
:facepalm::slap:

May Allah save us from this disastrous world.

Ya know, if I was to start a thread here, it would probably invite the internet's Christian warriors to party, the thread title would be:

"The Religion of the Anti-Christ: Christianity" and a whole can of worms would open.

I'd explain the mithraic origins of Christianity and the real and true reasoning behind the "trinity" being a remixed theology of polytheism attempting to merge with the Monotheism Jesus pbuh taught.

And that would just be a starting point... from there, things would get real interesting, real fast.

Scimi

[Al Sultan]

would just be a starting point... from there, things would get real interesting, real fast

Oh boy I can just imagine xD

but how is Christianity anti Christ? I thought they affirmed that jesus was the messiah, or do you mean something else?

[Scimitar]

Hi ___

I got this, lol.

Like I showed from scripture in previous posts, a natural person will not understand God's word.

You know nothing, John Snow. You proved nothing except, the term "natural person" is a misnomer and heavily used by you in a context which is not only whack, but absolutely OOC. Just like what you are attempting to do below. And that's the problem with non denominational Christians - they interpret the bible to feed their bias. That's totally dishonest, as I will now prove once again.

Who is the "woman" that 1Corinthians 11:6 refers to?

Every woman. Did you read 1 Corinthians 11:5? the verse before the one you mentioned?

But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as having her head shaved.

For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

1 Corinthians 11: 5&6

What is the covering?

You really don't know?

OK, Here goes me, a Muslim teaching a Christian, their holy book.... again. Sheesh.

"Mary Mother of Jesus" in Google Images lol That is a massive clue to you, Oh Natural Person.

Secondly, know this, that Semites of the Middle East, always had their women observe the veil, and even today the tradition is existent - yet here you are, claiming to know what this head covering is and attempting to deny it is a veil. When clearly, anything which covers the head is a veil.

For proof, go to a Church for once and ask to speak to a "nun" - they cover their head by the way... so do our Muslim women. While the practice among Christians is confined only to the Nunnery.

Is Covering the Hair a Religious Commandment for Christian Women?

There can be only one answer to this: yes, it is! Simply open the Bible to the First Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 11. Read verses 3-10.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraces his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is the same as if she were shaven. For if a woman is not covered, let her be shaven. But if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. A man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God. But woman is the glory of man. For man was not created for woman, but woman for man. This is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority over her head, because of the angels.

The meaning of this passage is plain enough. We can make the following syllogisms:

Syllogism 1

Praying with an uncovered head is a disgrace
Having a shaved head is the same as praying with an uncovered head
Therefore, having a shaved head is a disgrace

Syllogism 2

If it is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head, she should cover her head
It is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head - see syllogism 1
Therefore, a woman should cover her head

What was the law of Moses designed to do?

The Torah - means The Law in Hebrew Aramaic, in case you was also ignorant of this too. It's like I'm teaching a 9 year old or an adult moron here. No offence. But you really should do your homework first.

Who is under the jurisdiction of the law and why?

Now here is where you look real green. The Law was only for the Children of Israel. Jesus pbuh himself said "I have come only for the lost sheep of Israel". Not the vile Romans who were leeching Jerusalem for tax money to make the Pagan Caesar happy. Not for any other people either, nope, Jesus only came for the lost sheep of Israel, and the laws you think you know about but do not - were for the Children of Israel. Jesus pbuh didn't come to "preach to the Gentiles" lol, that was Paul doing the opposite of what Jesus pbuh taught. Kinda anti-Christian in that sense no?

Who do you think was under the jurisdiction of The Mosaic Law according to the scripture? French Crusaders? :D Too funny.

Only as a Christian will God give you the spiritual understanding for His word, as Jesus himself said.

What does that mean? Christian God? Do you mean one who is confused he is three and prays to himself like "Hi God, help me, it's me - you" like he did in the garden of Gethsemony? Seems to me, this God of yours might be kinda, in need of a straght jacket and some medication, according to your ideas about him.

"Eli Eli Ya Sabachthani" - How is the man who cries this, God? Lol.

You have failed to make any points in this thread that actually prove any of your bias'.

Go home, contact some priests and rabbi's, get your game correct and then come back. God willing.

Scimi

[Scimitar]

Oh boy I can just imagine xD

but how is Christianity anti Christ? I thought they affirmed that jesus was the messiah, or do you mean something else?

Messiah?

Messiah according to the Christian definition means "son of God" - begotten and all. But it's a false idea and totally out of context.

Christians seem to think they have the claim to "Messiah" when in fact, many Messiahs came before Jesus pbuh. One wasn't even an Israelite.

For example - Cyrus the Persian whom is noted as "The Great" was also a Messiah (non Israelite), according to the Torah.

Clearly, the term "Messiah" is not unique to Christianity, and understanding that Christianity came after the line of Prophets and Messengers from the Children of Israel, and the term "Messiah" being extant in Hebrew Aramaic way before the advent of Christianity, is evident that the Christian idea of the term is pretty much useless. We should go to the Semitic understanding of the word to know what it really means:

Messiah: The term "messiah" is the translation of the Hebrew term masiah [jyiv'm], which is derived from the verb masah, meaning to smear or anoint. When objects such as wafers and shields were smeared with grease or oil they were said to be anointed; hence the commonly used term was "anoint" when grease or oil was applied to objects by Israelites and non-Israelites. The term "messiah" is not used to refer to "anointed" objects that were designated and consecrated for specific cultic purposes but to persons only. Persons who were anointed had been elected, designated, appointed, given authority, qualified, and equipped for specific offices and tasks related to these.

Now, in Islam, when we do ablution (wudhu) the part where we wash our head, is called what? Masah. Same thing bro. We anoint ourselves as Muslims each time we do wudhu.

And it is in our tradition of Islam that we have the hadeeth about when Jesus pbuh returns by the white minaret east of Dimishq (Damascus) his head will seem to be wet and when he lifts it, it would seem as though pearls are scattering from his hair... that's what it means to be Messiah in the strictest sense according to Judaism and Islam... that and being chosen by God for a specific task. We know what Jesus pbuh will do when he returns. That is the task at hand.

...meanwhile in cuckoo land. Christians.

Scimi

EDIT:

John the Baptist - Baptised Jesus (peace be upon them both) - in that one event, Jesus pbuh had done Masah. So had countless others who John the Baptist had Baptised in the name of God.

Scimi

[Delete.]

....

[Al Sultan]

Mashallah brother, thanks for explaining, I see what do you mean by "Messiah" as I was unsure what it really meant. jazak allah khair for the info anyway ;)

[Scimitar]

Wa iyyakum,

Basically bro, the Christians have run with an altogether deviant explanation for the word "messiah".

Scimi

[Holy branch]

I got this, lol.
You know nothing, John Snow. You proved nothing except, the term "natural person" is a misnomer and heavily used by you....

The "natural" person in 1Corinthains 2:14 refers to non-believers (those who reject that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin).

Every woman. Did you read 1 Corinthians 11:5? the verse before the one you mentioned?

But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as having her head shaved.

For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

1 Corinthians 11: 5&6

You really don't know?

OK, Here goes me, a Muslim teaching a Christian, their holy book.... again. Sheesh.

"Mary Mother of Jesus" in Google Images lol That is a massive clue to you, Oh Natural Person.

Secondly, know this, that Semites of the Middle East, always had their women observe the veil, and even today the tradition is existent - yet here you are, claiming to know what this head covering is and attempting to deny it is a veil. When clearly, anything which covers the head is a veil.

For proof, go to a Church for once and ask to speak to a "nun" - they cover their head by the way... so do our Muslim women. While the practice among Christians is confined only to the Nunnery.

Is Covering the Hair a Religious Commandment for Christian Women?

There can be only one answer to this: yes, it is! Simply open the Bible to the First Epistle to the Corinthians, chapter 11. Read verses 3-10.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraces his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is the same as if she were shaven. For if a woman is not covered, let her be shaven. But if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. A man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God. But woman is the glory of man. For man was not created for woman, but woman for man. This is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority over her head, because of the angels.
The meaning of this passage is plain enough. We can make the following syllogisms:

Syllogism 1

Praying with an uncovered head is a disgrace
Having a shaved head is the same as praying with an uncovered head
Therefore, having a shaved head is a disgrace

Syllogism 2

If it is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head, she should cover her head
It is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head - see syllogism 1
Therefore, a woman should cover her head

Your argument above was expected, and is that of a natural man, devoid of any spiritual understanding.
Without Jesus Christ you will not understand who is the woman, what is the covering, etc.

Anyway folks, it's time to leave this forum as I got warnings from admin that I'm not to share the gospel of God's kingdom here.

[Al Sultan]

devoid of any spiritual understanding.
Without Jesus Christ you will not understand who is the woman, what is the covering

lol you must be trolling us.

Scimitar explained to you the "covering" which you yourself don't even know (even though its in your bible *cough* *cough* )

and he did brilliantly.

So why are you saying that? I don't need a person to explain to me this verse, it's like I'm searching for information, but that information is right infront of me , but I'm too stupid to read (no offence)

That's exactly what you are doing, you're becoming arrogant and blind, and I don't understand why, why don't you just face the truth? why do you have to be like "you don't understand this or this" if he didn't he wouldn't be explaining it in a simple way.

Also why don't you 'teach' him what it is since it's your bible and you're a Christian? explain then :)

How does it feel to get a taste of your own medicine? (Made in London) ;)

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Al Sultan;

I struggle with these kinds of threads, clearly there are profound differences between our two faiths. however, I do believe we should be able to build relationships despite these differences. It would be a very shallow world, if everyone was a Catholic like me, and believed as I do.

I believe that truth leads to kindness, mercy forgiveness, justice and peace, we should pray for each other, that we might all find salvation, despite our differences.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

[Scimitar]

The "natural" person in 1Corinthains 2:14 refers to non-believers (those who reject that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin).




Your argument above was expected, and is that of a natural man, devoid of any spiritual understanding.
Without Jesus Christ you will not understand who is the woman, what is the covering, etc.[/INDENT]


Anyway folks, it's time to leave this forum as I got warnings from admin that I'm not to share the gospel of God's kingdom here.

So you didn't come here to learn, but preach - got your tail handed back to you and now you wanna run with it firmly tucked under your cloak...

...oh, you're forgetting the dagger,

Scimi

[Scimitar]

I was saving this, but since you have left, well...

The "natural" person in 1Corinthains 2:14 refers to non-believers (those who reject that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God who died for our sin).

Nail in coffin time:

There is consensus among historians and Christian theologians that Paul is the author of the First Epistle to the Corinthians (ca. AD 53–54).^[1] The letter is quoted or mentioned by the earliest of sources, and is included in every ancient canon,^[2] including that of Marcion. The personal and even embarrassing texts about immorality in the church increase consensus.

However, two passages may have been inserted at a later stage. The first passage is 1 Cor 11:2–16 dealing with praying and prophesying with head covering.^[3]The second passage is 1 Cor 14:34–35 which has been hotly debated. Part of the reason for doubt is that in some manuscripts, the verses come at the end of the chapter instead of at its present location. Furthermore, Paul is here appealing to the law which is uncharacteristic of him. Lastly, the verses come into conflict with 11:5 where women are described as praying and prophesying.<sup>[4]

SAUCE

Sleep well, :) rest them shaky legs.

Scimi</sup>

[Al Sultan]

Greetings and peace be with you Al Sultan;

I struggle with these kinds of threads, clearly there are profound differences between our two faiths. however, I do believe we should be able to build relationships despite these differences. It would be a very shallow world, if everyone was a Catholic like me, and believed as I do.

I believe that truth leads to kindness, mercy forgiveness, justice and peace, we should pray for each other, that we might all find salvation, despite our differences.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

Greetings and peace be with you too, brother Eric.

Brother Eric, you're a very nice and humble person, but , I one hundred and ten percent agree with what you said,and I understand why you struggle in these kinds of threads.

Of course truth leads to peace,mercy,kindness,justice.

But I'm pretty sure you can see who's trying to tell the truth to the one here.

First of all, Holy Branch started the anger and hatred by first telling us to 'leave anti christ islam' so then me and Scimitar corrected him that we do believe he is the Messiah, and Islam confirms that.

He then ignored us AGAIN and continued to call us 'anti christs' and command us to 'leave anti christ islam' ... like do you accept that dear brother Eric?

It pisses me off, and it offends me, because we are not, and we told him that and he just ignores us.

I really would have appreciated this argument much more if Holy Branch was a bit more mature, and polite to us, because being called an 'anti christ' offends me.

But I will continue to be patient with him, and then hopefully he will understand the truth (that we are NOT ANTI CHRISTS)

God bless you Eric.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you brother Al Sultan;

We can never hope to know the mind of God. The Jews are God's chosen people, Christians are chosen by Christ, and in Islam, Allah chooses whom he wills. Did Allah make a mistake, when he chose you to be a wonderful Muslim? I would have to fight against God to change what he has set in place.

But I will continue to be patient with him, and then hopefully he will understand the truth (that we are NOT ANTI CHRISTS)

Patience always seems to go against human nature, our instincts seem to say we should respond in the same way. But patience and kindness brings us closer to our God.

May Allah bless you in all that you do, may you be a blessing to those you love and care for.

Eric

[Al Sultan]

Greetings and peace be with you too, brother Eric.

May Allah bless you in all that you do, may you be a blessing to those you love and care for.

May Allah and bless you too, and you too may be a blessing to those you love and care for :love::love::love: