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truthseeker63
10-11-2016, 04:13 PM
As Salamu Alaykum I know drinking Alcohol is haram is a sin in Islam for Muslims but my question is in an Islamic State a Caliphate under a Caliph could a Muslims ever be killed for drinking or if they are caught in public drinking are they just given Lashes what if they are caught several times I would think that like Prohibition in America if someone really wanted to drink and was Muslim was living in a Caliphate they would try to keep it a secret or make Alcohol in their own Homes or drink there or maybe buy from Non Muslims anyways I now drinking is haram in Islam but I have met Muslims who drink I tell them to keep it a secret Islam says to keep sins a secret anyways right I think I heard a Scholar say it is better to say the Shahada and still drink Alcohol then remain a Non Muslim if they don't want to stop is this right or wrong thank you for the time what does the Quran and Hadiths say are they still Muslims ?



Can you become Muslim without giving up partying and alcohol? - Q&A - Dr. Bilal Philips



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Published on Jun 23, 2012
Let’s say you want to convert to Islam, but there are a lot of things you don’t want to give up, like partying and drinking, what do you do? Listen to Sh. Dr. Bilal Philips’s answer.







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anatolian
10-11-2016, 04:21 PM
Salam bro. According to the majority of Sunni Scholars the act of sin doesnt make you disbeliever. It makes you a sinner. Only some radical madhabs say otherwise.
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truthseeker63
10-11-2016, 06:04 PM
Yes I have heard that too.
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truthseeker63
10-11-2016, 07:26 PM
Thank you for replying.
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truthseeker63
10-12-2016, 11:16 PM
Anyone else want to reply ?
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truthseeker63
10-12-2016, 11:16 PM
Thank you for everyone's time.
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Little_Lion
10-12-2016, 11:47 PM
I can only say what our brother has said, it does not remove you from Islam but it does put you in sin and you have to repent. The punishment is that the person's prayers are not accepted by Allah for forty days.
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anatolian
10-13-2016, 11:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Little_Lion
I can only say what our brother has said, it does not remove you from Islam but it does put you in sin and you have to repent. The punishment is that the person's prayers are not accepted by Allah for forty days.
Salam sister. You know every answer brings up another question :) Of course the acceptance of our prayers is only up to our Rabb. We merely must be in a position of hope to be accepted. But my question is if we know for sure that our prayers will not be accepted for forty days after drinking alcohol, what is the purpose of praying for these forty days? If one drinks alcohol than he better be busy of other things instead?
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-13-2016, 11:33 AM
People misunderstand. Salaah not being accepted is not what you think. The Salaah is Fardh five times a day. When you perform it (despite having drunk alcohol), your Salaah is accepted and it is ticked off by the Malaa'ikah (recording angels) that you have performed your Faraa'idh (obligatory Salaats) for the day. What is meant by not accepted is that you do not receive any reward for Salaah for 40 days.
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Regrets1
10-13-2016, 12:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
People misunderstand. Salaah not being accepted is not what you think. The Salaah is Fardh five times a day. When you perform it (despite having drunk alcohol), your Salaah is accepted and it is ticked off by the Malaa'ikah (recording angels) that you have performed your Faraa'idh (obligatory Salaats) for the day. What is meant by not accepted is that you do not receive any reward for Salaah for 40 days.
Asalamu Alaikum. No reward for praying for 40 days..is that case of not repenting and praying or even after repenting one doesn't get reward for 40 days?
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AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 01:22 PM
The majority of Muslim Caliphs were drinking alcohol at that time lol
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-13-2016, 02:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
The majority of Muslim Caliphs were drinking alcohol at that time lol
Which Muslim caliphs? Which era are you referring to?
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sister herb
10-13-2016, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
The majority of Muslim Caliphs were drinking alcohol at that time lol
Can you prove this?
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Scimitar
10-13-2016, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
Which Muslim caliphs? Which era are you referring to?
He's probably referring to fictional novel "1001 Arabian Nights" lol. Apparently Abbasid Khalip Harun al Rashid consumed alcohol in this fictional setting which became a literary marvel in Europe.

Take the accusations with a grain of salt, a large crystallized one.

Scimi
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-13-2016, 03:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
He's probably referring to fictional novel "1001 Arabian Nights" lol. Apparently Abbasid Khalip Harun al Rashid consumed alcohol in this fictional setting which became a literary marvel in Europe.

Take the accusations with a grain of salt, a large crystallized one.

Scimi
Full of perverted stories, that book. Every woman cheating on her husband with "African slaves". Just waits for the husband to go on a trip, then out come the "African slaves" from the trees, of all places. Why the trees? The author was a racist. Tries to demonize African people. It's an evil book.
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Scimitar
10-13-2016, 03:49 PM
I actually enjoyed reading it when I did (maaaaany years ago) the way sheherazade spins the stories in order to stay alive another day, is genius in itself - she kept the King (who was a notorious drunkard) hanging each night, and he came back the next day wanting more of the story. ... colourful is how i'd describe it :D

Scimi
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anatolian
10-13-2016, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
People misunderstand. Salaah not being accepted is not what you think. The Salaah is Fardh five times a day. When you perform it (despite having drunk alcohol), your Salaah is accepted and it is ticked off by the Malaa'ikah (recording angels) that you have performed your Faraa'idh (obligatory Salaats) for the day. What is meant by not accepted is that you do not receive any reward for Salaah for 40 days.
Salam Huzaifah. I see your point and thanks for sharing it. If it is what you say it sounds more understandable but if it is as Little_Lion says it sounds less understandable to me.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-13-2016, 04:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Salam Huzaifah. I see your point and thanks for sharing it. If it is what you say it sounds more understandable but if it is as Little_Lion says it sounds less understandable to me.
See here:

https://islamqa.info/en/27143
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-13-2016, 04:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Regrets1
Asalamu Alaikum. No reward for praying for 40 days..is that case of not repenting and praying or even after repenting one doesn't get reward for 40 days?
وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

If a person makes sincere Tawbah, sister, then In Shaa Allaah he will get the reward as well. See the following:

https://islamqa.info/en/27143

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/80237
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AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 04:12 PM
I read in Ibn Hazm that there is many Caliphs during the Abbasides, Andalucia... were drinking wine among them i can mention Al Mutamad Ibn Abbad (the king of Seville) he was even making poetry about wine and you can read that in his book. The same thing with the greatest caliph of Andalusia Al Mansur Mohamed Ibnu Abi Amer...

You can read the poetry of Arabs during the Muslim caliphates, among them there many caliphs who were poets...

I can also mention the greatest Arabian poet Al-Mutanabbi who was against wine but then he drank his first cup of wine with Sayf Addawla Al Hamdani, the one caliphate who faught the Romans in Aleppo.

And the list goes on and on... If you want to know more about this subject you can read the book of Ibnu Khaledun as well (Al Mukaddima)

I don't stop here, Because Even Harun Arrashid was accused of drinking alcohol but no one knows if it's true or not. This accusation was made against him because he were always accompanied by Abu Nawas (The poet of wine). The latter was well financed by Harun Arrashid. And Allahu Aalam.
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Scimitar
10-13-2016, 04:21 PM
Abu Nawas recited poetry, with allegory and metaphor, which the enemies of Islam would take out of context and apply in a very literal sense.

Rumi also wrote poetry with wine mentioned in the verses, again allegorical and metaphorical in content - anyone can see this.

I know how these narratives form - when -uni-lingual people read - they take everything they read "literally", and are unable to fathom this thing we know as "contextual application".

These "uni-lingual" folk then write books claiming such and such was a notorious drunkard and evidence is presented in the form of the poetry they copy pasta into their books... hundreds of years pass and the lies in said book make it to acadaemia as articles which require further investigation and then, thesis are formed which in turn get peer reviewed and once again regurgitated.

Over the course of the regurgitations, the claim is made that "we've known you've all been secretly drinking for 'ages' " kinda thing.

Don't fall for the hype.

here is an example of a poem by Rumi in which he mentions the wine:

Wine Poems from Rūmī’s Diwān1) Ghazal 81

Oh Cupbearer!

Fill the soul from that pre-existent cup, that thief of the heart, that ambusher of formal religion.

Fill it with the wine that springs from the heart and mixes with the spirit, the wine whose bubbling intoxicates the God-seeing eye.

That grape wine – it belongs to the followers of Jesus; but this Hallajian wine, it belongs to the followers of the Qurʾān.

Vats of this wine, vats of that: until you break that vat, you will never taste this wine.

That wine frees the heart from sorrow for an instant: never can it snuff out sorrow,never can it uproot malice.

One drop from this cup will turn your work into gold – may my soul be sacrificed to this golden cup!

When this state (of wine-drinking) comes, mostly it comes in the pre-dawn hours, to him who scatters his bed-roll and pillow.

Beware lest the bad companion deceive you through whisperings – never break the covenant with kings through weakness.


On first reading this, literallty and wihout consideration, you'd think Rumi had made halal that which was made haraam. But read it again.

"Fill the soul from that pre-existent cup" - he then mentions it as a thief of the heart and one which ambushes formal religion - meaning, compulsion. And compulsion is a sister to impulsion - he presents a clever nuance in the idea that people drink on impulse and then become compelled to act out of character - thief of the heart, ambusher of formal religion. See?

He then mentions something and likens it to a wine which springs from the heart (not the grape) and mixes with the human spirit - and gives your inner eye, clarity.

He then mentions that wine from grapes are a thing for the followers of Jesus pbuh but the Hallajjan wine he speaks of belongs to the followers of Qur'an - Hallajan wine is a reference to the famous 10th century mystic, Mansur al-Hallaj who was famous for hisstates of spiritual ecstasy. No alcohol required.

He then mentions vats of wine - alcoholic - but he advises "until you don't break the vats of alcoholic wine, you will never taste this (other non material) wine" - again, he speaks of, the hallajan ecstacy.

His prose goes on to glorify the sweetness of belief by likening it to the ecstacy of wine but only better. In fact he goes on to use another parable, when he interates that "one drop from this wine and it will turn your work into gold" - an alchemical reference used in metaphysical context, to help enable the reader to understand what they chase in the nashaa (ecstacy of alcohol) can never be satisfied, and only the sweetness of true belief can bring one the satisfaction.

The mention of this spiritually aware state what he refers to as "Hallajjan" and associating it with the one who "scatters bed roll and pillow" in the "pre-dawn" hours refers to the believer who is awakening for his dawn prayer rituals. And warns against the "bad companion" who "whispers" you to stay in bed and forget your salaah., he then ends with "never break the covenant with kings through weakness... meaning, you have to answer to many people in life and Allah in death, but none of these whom you ever answer to will ever be shaytaan, so why listen to him?

Clever stuff.

As you can see, Rumi never advocated drinking alcohol - he used the weakness of the people (alcohol) to show them the irony of what they consume and their faulty reasoning behind such addictions.

But ask a non-Muslim, and they be like "Oh yeah, Rumi, he enjoyed a little red didn't he? hehe".

Scimi
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AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 04:43 PM
Rumi is not the same as Abu Nawas. He was a religious poet.

However Abu Nawas, Ibnu Zaydun, Al Mutanabbi, Al Hallaj... they didn't used allegory and metaphors and they were poets who loved Wine and they were drinking it all of their lives as did many Caliphs..
I do accept them as they are, i love them and i really enter in a state of joy when i read about them..

I invite you to read also the poetry of Arabs before Islam, you will also find other poets who were praising wine such as Omar Ibnu Kalthum, Azzir Salem, Imriou Al Kais... and the list goes on and on...

And yes, these poets get censored before and after Islam.

"we've known you've all been secretly drinking for 'ages' " This is correct! You just need to read the biographies of poets and of some Caliphs. The Muslims are not angels, they committed crimes and they drank alcohol for ages.

And i don't care what the west can say, they need to take a look at their bloody history before they look at ours.
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Scimitar
10-13-2016, 04:48 PM
I made an edit to my last post - re read, Ahmed.

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
I invite you to read also the poetry of Arabs before Islam, you will also find other poets who were praising wine such as Omar Ibnu Kalthum, Azzir Salem, Imriou Al Kais... and the list goes on and on...

And yes, these poets get censored before and after Islam.

"we've known you've all been secretly drinking for 'ages' " This is correct! You just need to read the biographies of poets and of some Caliphs. The Muslims are not angels, they committed crimes and they drank alcohol for ages.
First of all, using pre-Islamic poetry to help you make a point about how alcohol was consumed by Arabs of that period doesn't really help you to actually "make a point". Alcohol from fermented dates in Arabia is a well known historical fact. No poetry required to prove it.

Point of this thread though bro Ahmed, is to clarify the position of "khamr" in Islam. Not at any point before Islam.

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
And i don't care what the west can say, they need to take a look at their bloody history before they look at ours.
Too right :)

Scimi
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AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 04:56 PM
I still don't agree with you...

Did you read the poetry of Abu Nawas before ?
No!
So why are you speaking ?

You can ask any Arab about Abu Nawas and he will tell you that he was a big lover of wine and i add more, he was even gay... We know this because we read Arabic poetry since we are in School.

I invite you to read his poetry and his biography (he has been censored, he was a big drinker and he was put in prison because of that)
Al Mutanabbi pretended to be a prophet
There is another poet who said he is Allah, i think it's Hallaj
And the list goes on and on lol
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Scimitar
10-13-2016, 04:59 PM
To be honest, I actually hate poetry, so I don't like to read it. Either way bro, I don't think poetry which speaks of alcohol written by drunken Muslims can help you to prove that Khaliphs of Islam drank alcohol - that's my point :)

Sorry bro, but you fell into that one lol (logic trap)

Scimi
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anatolian
10-13-2016, 05:08 PM
Caliphes drinking alcohol do not prove anything. A Caliph doesnt mean an impeccable man. They commited sins. And if you ask me I think Caliphate ended with Hadhrat Ali. The rest were kings, some good examples like Harun Ar-Rashid, and some bad examples like Yazid?

By the way I couldnt catch how you came to Hallaj but I am a big fan of him :)
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AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 05:09 PM
Did you even read my second post ? :Emoji60:
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AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 05:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Caliphes drinking alcohol do not prove anything. A Caliph doesnt mean an impeccable man. They commited sins. And if you ask me I think Caliphate ended with Hadhrat Ali. The rest were kings, some good examples like Harun Ar-Rashid, and some bad examples like Yazid?

By the way I couldnt catch how you came to Hallaj but I am a big fan of him :)
Yes i agree 100% with you

But i'm a big fan of Mutanabbi :p He is the greatest poet with a heart of iron lol
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Scimitar
10-13-2016, 05:14 PM
Yes Ahmed, I did. But you fail to see what the brother above you just shared.

And if you ask me I think Caliphate ended with Hadhrat Ali.

Many share that opinion...

...and also, we're only supposedly ruled by people who are reflective of our own collective states.

So if you are gonna blame khaliphs, blame Muslims in general too. And know that whether Allah forgave them their transgressions through mercy or not, is something you do not know - yet you will continue to slander the dead who died as Muslims.:facepalm:

Scimi

EDIT: Ahmed, I'd have no problem with you attempting to prove Khaliph Baghdadi is a notorious drunk though :D go for it hehe
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AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 05:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
To be honest, I actually hate poetry, so I don't like to read it. Either way bro, I don't think poetry which speaks of alcohol written by drunken Muslims can help you to prove that Khaliphs of Islam drank alcohol - that's my point :)

Sorry bro, but you fell into that one lol (logic trap)

Scimi
I think you falled in the trap when you said that you are not interested in reading poetry.

You are right, if you don't read poetry you can't know that many Caliphs were poets and that they glorified wine ;)
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Scimitar
10-13-2016, 05:18 PM
I can read up on the peopel I like in history such as Rumi and who he references in his works, such as Hallaj.

You don't have to be interested in poetry to learn about the people of influence.

You forget, I study comparatively, something I've yet to see you take a leap forward in, Ahmed.

Let's not make this about you or me though, I'd rather see you try to bring this thread back on track by doing one of two things:

1) explain the position and reasoning behind khamr being haraam in Islam
2) attempt to prove baghdadi is a notorious drunk :D

One will be educational, the other - just entertainment :D

Scimi
Reply

AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
So if you are gonna blame khaliphs, blame Muslims in general too. And know that whether Allah forgave them their transgressions through mercy or not, is something you do not know - yet you will continue to slander the dead who died as Muslims.:facepalm:

Scimi

EDIT: Ahmed, I'd have no problem with you attempting to prove Khaliph Baghdadi is a notorious drunk though :D go for it hehe
No, i'm not blaming the Caliphs, i'm glorifying them because they were the defenders of the Ummah and you failed to see this!

And i already proved this by the translation that i do in order for me to show the world how great those people were, take a look ;)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...18KL5wUNlVTTUq

And i hope from my heart to meet them in Heaven one day because they are really my heroes and my leaders and they influenced my life so much..
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AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 05:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
I can read up on the peopel I like in history such as Rumi and who he references in his works, such as Hallaj.

You don't have to be interested in poetry to learn about the people of influence.
I agree, but poetry will help you a lot to learn more about history.
And it helped me a lot to learn more about the attitude of the Caliphs, somthing that you didn't even know ;)

It's really bad to give importance to historians and to neglet poets.
We need to give importance to both so we can see the biggest picture!

I give you an example : The Kings can get glorified by historians but slandered by the poets
This will help us to see the négatives and the positives.

---> EDIT : Poetry will help you to compare, you just said it by yourself "I study comparatively"
This is a big lesson from me to you, to learn new Tools of comparison lol
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Scimitar
10-13-2016, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
No, i'm not blaming the Caliphs, i'm glorifying them because they were the defenders of the Ummah and you failed to see this!
Clearly...

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
I read in Ibn Hazm that there is many Caliphs during the Abbasides, Andalucia... were drinking wine among them i can mention...[/snip]
format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
And i already proved this by the translation that i do in order for me to show the world how great those people were, take a look ;)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...18KL5wUNlVTTUq

And i hope from my heart to meet them in Heaven one day because they are really my heroes and my leaders and they influenced my life so much..
Well done, you!!!

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
I don't stop here, Because Even Harun Arrashid was accused of drinking alcohol but no one knows if it's true or not. This accusation was made against him because he were always accompanied by Abu Nawas (The poet of wine). The latter was well financed by Harun Arrashid. And Allahu Aalam.
format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam

Let’s remember the following statement of the Prophet:


Abu Huraira narrated the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “It is enough to call a person a liar that he narrates everything he hears”[Sahih Muslim]

The explanation of the hadith is that a person will hear a mixture of truth and falsehood and if they simply narrate everything without checking what is true and what is false, they will inevitably narrate the lies too.
format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
I agree, but poetry will help you a lot to learn more about history.
And it helped me a lot to learn more about the attitude of the Caliphs, somthing that you didn't even know ;)

It's really bad to give importance to historians and to neglet poets.
We need to give importance to both so we can see the biggest picture!

I give you an example : The Kings can get glorified by historians but slandered by the poets
This will help us to see the négatives and the positives.
Poetry is a form of expression which is often invaluable in the preservation of, and anthropological understanding of human development - not history.

History relies on many other ologies, poetry not being one - but only used in fleeting reference to a time period. It's hardly worth the parchment in my honest opinion. Like I said, I'm not a fan of it - but I love history, and study it comparatively with investigative methodologies - the very same I'm asking you to develop, the very same i've yet to see fruit within you.

Meanwhile you are asking me to take the statements of drunken poets as proof against Kings? :D logic trap back again bro

Scimi
Reply

AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 05:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Poetry is a form of expression which is often invaluable in the preservation of, and anthropological understanding of human development - not history.

History relies on many other ologies, poetry not being one - but only used in fleeting reference to a time period. It's hardly worth the parchment in my honest opinion. Like I said, I'm not a fan of it - but I love history, and study it comparatively with investigative methodologies - the very same I'm asking you to develop, the very same i've yet to see fruit within you.

Scimi
And yes history can be studied through Poetry and many historians are doing it.
Because poetry helped to describe for example wars and Kings..
So why should we neglect it ? In knowledge Nothing should be neglected! Even a small detail!

As for Harun Arrashid, i never said that he was drunk man, i just said what he was accused of, and this is true! And i didn't take from anyone, i just took it from respected scholars.

If you say that Prophet Sulayman was accused to worship the devils, does that mean you are liar ? No!
You need to understand that Hadith more...
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Scimitar
10-13-2016, 05:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
And yes history can be studied through Poetry and many historians are doing it.
Because poetry helped to describe for example wars and Kings..
So why should we neglect it ? In knowledge Nothing should be neglected! Even a small detail!

As for Harun Arrashid, i never said that he was drunk man, i just said what he was accused of, and this is true! And i didn't take from anyone, i just took it from respected scholars.

If you say that Prophet Sulayman was accused to worship the devils, does that mean you are liar ? No!
You need to understand that Hadith more...
Ahmed, you made statements which you did not back up and left open to enquiry. Here is your first post in this thread:

format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
The majority of Muslim Caliphs were drinking alcohol at that time lol
You're making HUGE mistakes in your opening post and others here in this thread. You've left red herring arguments which leave more questions than they answer, and to make things worse, you claim the "understand hadeeth properly" argument out of sheer ignorance.

Come on young man, pull your socks up.

I still don't understand how you expect me to take the statements of drunken poets as proof against Kings?

:D

Scimi
Reply

AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 05:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Ahmed, you made statements which you did not back up and left open to enquiry. Here is your first post in this thread:



You're making HUGE mistakes in your opening post and others here in this thread. You've left red herring arguments which leave more questions than they answer, and to make things worse, you claim the "understand hadeeth properly" argument out of sheer ignorance.

Come on young man, pull your socks up.

I still don't understand how you expect me to take the statements of drunken poets as proof against Kings?

:D

Scimi
I already explained myself well in my second post!

And yes you used the Hadith to prove that i'm a liar but i'm not, real liars are those who say i'm gonna do Something then they don't!

And why are you thinking that all poets are drunken poets ? Why putting all poets in the same bag ? And why you think that people who drink alcohol are all liars ?
Reply

Scimitar
10-13-2016, 06:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
I already explained myself well in my second post!

And yes you used the Hadith to prove that i'm a liar but i'm not, real liars are those who say i'm gonna do Something then they don't!

And why are you thinking that all poets are drunken poets ? Why putting all poets in the same bag ? And why you think that people who drink alcohol are all liars ?
Bro let me put it to you like this.

In Islam, we have something called hadeeth sciences.

Within these hadeeth sciences, is a thing called "reliability of narrators"

If a narrator had faults such as being known to be a liar, have a bad memory, having addiction to wine etc - they became "unreliable".

I hold fast to the yard stick by which Islamic scholarship has measured the accuracy of a mans word. You, apparently do not. You wrote this:

And why you think that people who drink alcohol are all liars ?

And that my bro, is where you go wrong.

Scimi
Reply

AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 06:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Bro let me put it to you like this.

In Islam, we have something called hadeeth sciences.

Within these hadeeth sciences, is a thing called "reliability of narrators"

If a narrator had faults such as being known to be a liar, have a bad memory, having addiction to wine etc - they became "unreliable".

I hold fast to the yard stick by which Islamic scholarship has measured the accuracy of a mans word. You, apparently do not. You wrote this:

And why you think that people who drink alcohol are all liars ?

And that my bro, is where you go wrong.

Scimi
Yes maybe that's where i go wrong!

But what about my other arguments ?
Reply

Scimitar
10-13-2016, 06:10 PM
Null and void,

You're speaking from an emotional position in the post before your last. I don't entertain emotion when it comes to things like this bro.

Scimi
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AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Null and void,

You're speaking from an emotional position in the post before your last. I don't entertain emotion when it comes to things like this bro.

Scimi
Of course, no matter what i do, it's still null and void!

I proved you wrong many times here in this thread, but you still don't want to admit it.
When you show me where i'm wrong, unlike you i do admit it.

I didn't talked with emotion, i just stated what others has said, but you are the one who is speaking with his emotions by saying that Caliphs & Poets never drank alcohol and i said the Truth about them even though i love them, and you don't want to show any respect for my ideas.

But you just don't want to learn anything from me because i'm way more younger than you.
Reply

Scimitar
10-13-2016, 06:33 PM
You fail to see the issue bro - you asking us to take the words of drunken people as evidence is not really conducive to Islamic practice bro.

Whenever we call a witness, the witness must be someone who is not categorically unreliable due to XYZ reasons, one of which is being an alcoholic.

Scimi
Reply

AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 06:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
You fail to see the issue bro - you asking us to take the words of drunken people as evidence is not really conducive to Islamic practice bro.

Whenever we call a witness, the witness must be someone who is not categorically unreliable due to XYZ reasons, one of which is being an alcoholic.

Scimi
And i think that you also failed to see the bigger picture that i wanted to show.
Reply

Scimitar
10-13-2016, 06:42 PM
Maybe... Maybe not
Reply

AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 06:44 PM
No i'm sure because you have a big ego and you never want to be proven wrong
Reply

anatolian
10-13-2016, 08:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
Yes i agree 100% with you

But i'm a big fan of Mutanabbi :p He is the greatest poet with a heart of iron lol
Maybe, I don't know him. But Hallaj was not just a poet, he was a great sufi and he is verily respected by many here in Turkey. I think saying that he claimed to be Allah is just a rude word..What he did was far beyond this...
Reply

Scimitar
10-13-2016, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
No i'm sure because you have a big ego and you never want to be proven wrong
Ahmed, try and breathe - I already told you this thread was not about you or me :D

Look, here:

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar

Let's not make this about you or me though, I'd rather see you try to bring this thread back on track by doing one of two things:

1) explain the position and reasoning behind khamr being haraam in Islam
2) attempt to prove baghdadi is a notorious drunk :D

One will be educational, the other - just entertainment :D

Scimi
Ahmed, Chillax bro, I think it was your ego that is feeling it - not mine... I advise some internal relfection :)

Scimi
Reply

AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 09:35 PM
Yes i do admit that i have an ego and a very biiiiiiig one but the difference between me and you is that I tell the Truth, i'm honest!

So i dare you to admit it.

It was you who made it between you and me when you said i'm a liar.
Reply

Scimitar
10-13-2016, 09:39 PM
I did? news to me :D I think you are getting lost in translation.

I quoted an hadeeth which Ibn Adam quoted before me, and I did so to show you that "Chinese whispers" does not count as witness statement. Further, it can land someone into the classification of "liar" by their repetition of said "Chinese whispers"... which was in fact, exactly as you did - I was attempting to show you the fallacy of your method. That was all.

But as usual dear bro, you see me as someone to "argue with", and so, I will let you be.

Peace

Scimi

EDIT: I'd still like to see you try to either:

`1) explain the reason why khamr is haraam

or

2) attempt to prove baghdadi is a notorious alcoholic :D

Atleast that way, we can attempt to salvage this thread you steam-trolled. lol.
Reply

Little_Lion
10-13-2016, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Salam Huzaifah. I see your point and thanks for sharing it. If it is what you say it sounds more understandable but if it is as Little_Lion says it sounds less understandable to me.
The scholar is correct and my wording was bad. I apologize.
Reply

AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 09:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
I did? news to me :D I think you are getting lost in translation.

I quoted an hadeeth which Ibn Adam quoted before me, and I did so to show you that "Chinese whispers" does not count as witness statement. Further, it can land someone into the classification of "liar" by their repetition of said "Chinese whispers"... which was in fact, exactly as you did - I was attempting to show you the fallacy of your method. That was all.

But as usual dear bro, you see me as someone to "argue with", and so, I will let you be.

Peace

Scimi

EDIT: I'd still like to see you try to either:

`1) explain the reason why khamr is haraam

or

2) attempt to prove baghdadi is a notorious alcoholic :D

Atleast that way, we can attempt to salvage this thread you steam-trolled. lol.
The only one is trolling this thread is you as you did in many others

You love to argue a lot.

You asked me about the Caliphs and i answered you with proofs but you didn't want to believe it.
You said the Muslim poets never glorified wine and i proved you wrong.

You think that saying Harun Arrashid was accused of drinking Alcohol by some historians is a lie
Then if i say Prophet David was accused of being a fornicator by the Christians is a lie as well ?

Then why should we study ? Let's stop!

Alcohol is haram because it makes you lose your head, Who doesn't know this ?
Reply

Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-13-2016, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Maybe, I don't know him. But Hallaj was not just a poet, he was a great sufi.
There is a story about Mansoor al-Hallaaj told in "Subulas Salaam". It goes:

------------------
"
THE SABR, FAQR AND FUTUWWAT OF MANSUR HALLAAJ

HADHRAT HUSAIN Bin Mansur Hallaaj (rahmatullah alayh) was imprisoned and was awaiting his execution for allegedly having uttered blasphemy (kufr). Ibn Khafeef went to visit him in prison. He asked Mansur Hallaaj permission to pose three questions. When Mansur Hallaaj consented, Ibn Khafeef said: “What is the meaning of Sabr (Patience)?” Hadhrat Mansur who was shackled in chains, said: “If I gaze at these shackles, they will break and fall off.” So saying, he cast an intense look at the shackles which promptly broke and fell off. However, despite having the ability to unshackle himself with such ease, he chose that his hands and feet to be in shackles night and
day.

Then he cast a gaze at the wall of the prison. The wall split open, and miraculously both Mansur and Ibn Khafeef found themselves standing on the banks of the River Dajlah (Tigris River in Iraq). Despite possessing such miraculous powers, Mansur Hallaaj remained within the prison. He never attempted to escape. He demonstrated these miraculous acts to physically explain the meaning of Sabr – to bear hardships with patience and not to seek escape from hardships with miraculous powers.

Ibn Khafeef asked: “What is Faqr (poverty)?” Hadhrat Mansur cast a gaze at a stone which immediately turned into gold. Despite having the power to convert stones miraculously into gold, he did not have a dime (cent) to buy oil for his lamp at home. By this act, he explained the meaning of genuine poverty which is self-induced, and which is not the consequence of deprivation and inability.

Ibn Khafeef then asked: “What is Futuwwat (courage)?” Hadhrat Mansur said: “Tomorrow you shall witness it.” Ibn Khafeef narrates: “That night I dreamt I was on the plains of Qiyaamah. An announcer was proclaiming: “Where is Husain Bin Mansur?” He was located and ushered into the Presence of Allah Ta’ala. It was then said: “Whoever loved you will enter Jannat, and whoever had hatred for you will enter Jahannum.” Mansur responded (i.e. in Ibn Khafeef’s dream): “No! O My Rabb! Forgive them all.” Then in his dream he turned to me and said: “This is the meaning of futuwwat.”

Despite being shackled in thirteen chains, handcuffs and leg irons, Mansur (rahmatullah alayh) performed 1000 raka’ts daily in prison."

------------------

[End quote from Subulas Salaam, p.6]
Reply

Scimitar
10-13-2016, 10:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
The only one is trolling this thread is you as you did in many others

You love to argue a lot
Why do you keep making this about you and I??

Are you dense bro?

I've told you many times now IN THIS THREAD that its not about you nor I - its about the position of Khamr in Islam - all you did was come here accusing Khaliphs of being alcoholics like a complete fool.

Are you a fool?

Do you only read your own posts?

I'll repeat, this thread is not about you nor I.

Now, for like the fifth time I will repeat - either:

1) explain the reason why khamr is haraam in Islam

or

2) prove Khaliph Baghdadi is an Alcoholic. (at least this one is alive lol)

Finally, stop being butthurt over dumb stuff - be a man, not a little girl.

Scimi
Reply

AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 11:08 PM
I'm wasting my time speaking to you in this stupid thread!
Reply

Scimitar
10-13-2016, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AhmedGassama
I'm wasting my speaking to you in this stupid thread!



Scimi
Reply

AhmedGassama
10-13-2016, 11:12 PM
That's exactly what i did now!
Reply

Scimitar
10-13-2016, 11:14 PM
Bro you're funny :D

Scimi
Reply

AhmedGassama
10-14-2016, 08:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
He's probably referring to fictional novel "1001 Arabian Nights" lol. Apparently Abbasid Khalip Harun al Rashid consumed alcohol in this fictional setting which became a literary marvel in Europe.

Scimi

Originally Posted by ibn-Adam


Let’s remember the following statement of the Prophet:


Abu Huraira narrated the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “It is enough to call a person a liar that he narrates everything he hears”[Sahih Muslim]

The explanation of the hadith is that a person will hear a mixture of truth and falsehood and if they simply narrate everything without checking what is true and what is false, they will inevitably narrate the lies too.
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