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InToTheRain
10-26-2016, 05:27 PM
:salam:

Hope all have been are well Insha'Allah. Not sure how this will be received so I will just dump it and see it what happens :D

Are Wahhabis Sunnis? Chechnya Conference and Saudi anger…
https://eruditeblogger.wordpress.com...d-saudi-anger/


:outta:
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Search
10-26-2016, 05:41 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


I don't like Salafism/Wahhabism; so, such a conference from my side seems long overdue. However, I am under no illusions about the response of such a thing. People will be outraged as Salafism has a preeminent presence on the Internet. People today are following salafiyya movement without even knowing that they're part of that ideology as they're laypersons and do not have the knowledge they'd require to be able to distinguish why they should remove themselves from that ideology.

That said, specific to the article's enumerated points, I am not sure about the Saud family's origins - that is, its accuracy, as that part sounds more like a conspiracy theory and one that would require proof in order for it to be validated one way or another. Also, even though I have vehement disagreements with Salafism/Wahhabism, I'd still characterize them (albeit begrudgingly) as Sunni, though not part of Ahlul Sunna wal Jama’ah.

Originally Posted by InToTheRain
:salam:

Hope all have been are well Insha'Allah. Not sure how this will be received so I will just dump it and see it what happens :D

Are Wahhabis Sunnis? Chechnya Conference and Saudi anger…
https://eruditeblogger.wordpress.com...d-saudi-anger/


:outta:
:wa: (And peace be upon you)
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AabiruSabeel
10-26-2016, 06:10 PM
:salam:

There are people here and on the internet who assume everyone who disagrees with them on anything to be a Salafi (or Wahhabi in their terminology).

Woe to every (kind of) scandal-monger and-backbiter, [104:1]

While not being a Salafi myself, I say this article has mixed a lot of facts with fiction.

Some of them:
Al-Azhar, while being a prestigious university, their Imam is not considered as the leader of sunni Muslims all over the world.
Al-Saud never claim to be descendants of the Prophet :saws:.
Mu'tazilah is not one of the authentic Sunni theological schools.
etc


That being said, The Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah are those who follow the Sunnah of the Prophet :saws: as per the understanding of his Sahabah, Tabi'een and Tabi' Tabi'een, ie the first three generations.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-26-2016, 06:21 PM
The conference was thought up by Iblees. He then inspired his minions to set it up.

These very same guys who are saying that Salafism is not part of Ahlus Sunnah wal-Jamaa`ah and Salafis are not Sunnis, expose their Nifaaq by going to Makkah and Madeenah and performing Salaah behind the Imaams of the Haramain such as Huzaifi, Shuraim, Sudais, Aal ash-Shaykh, Saalih aal-Taalib, etc. all of whom are die-hard Salafis. "Wahhaabis" as they say.

If Salafis are not Sunnis, as they claim, then they must no longer perform Salaah in Makkah and Madeenah. The guys who make this claim. Let them start off right now by deleting all of the Qiraa'ah they have of al-Ghaamidi, Mishari al-Afaasi, Sudais, Huzaifi, Shuraim, Shaatiri, etc. because all of those are Salafis. Every last Imaam of the Haramain is a Salafi.

Perhaps the claimants do not know this, because their intellects are deficient.

Salafis are part of Ahlus Sunnah wal-Jamaa`ah.

They have not pointed out, in their little "conference", what it is that takes the Salafis outside of Ahlus Sunnah wal-Jamaa`ah.

You know, I never hold back my words. I really don't care who doesn't like it. Let me say it in plain terms:

The Shaytaani "conference" was organised by people who are devoid of any `Ilm of Deen. They don't even know what it is. They want to destroy Islaam. It's not the Salafis that they hate; it's the fact that the Salafis have this call towards "Qur'aan and Sunnah". They hate it. Salafism is not the issue here. These organisers of the conference do not act according to the Madhaahib they claim to follow. They have created their own little versions of the Madhaahib. They don't follow the original Madhaahib of Haqq, as propagated by the four A'immah and their students.

We could have had a live debate with these "200 scholars" and publicly exposed their Baatil ideologies and beliefs, but that is a waste of time, and we have little time to waste. Those who have Imaan will In Shaa Allaah not be duped by them.

Was-Salaam.
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islamirama
10-26-2016, 06:28 PM
There is no "wahabism" or "salafism" as the ignorant Muslims like to cry about and hate on. Saudi Muslims are no different than other Muslims in other nations. There are many among them termed "wahabi" but are better than these "wahabi" hater Muslims. These Muslims need to worry about themselves and their akhira rather then hating on other Muslims. In your arrogance and hatred, are you really a true Muslim hating on them?

They are Sunni. The ones not sunni are the deviant sufi speakers like Hamza Yusuf and his institute that these ignorant Muslims listen to and can't "bear" the thought of anyone speaking out against these deviants. They should ask themselves, are you truly following Islam or your nafs and your celebrity shaiks ?
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startingarabic
10-26-2016, 06:32 PM
I think brother Huzaifah ibn Adam went overboard here but may Allah forgive us and him.
A few good comments made here to wake the people on the forum up.

:facepalm:
Reply

Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-26-2016, 06:33 PM
Remember the story of the three cows: the White Cow, the Black Cow and the Red Cow.

Ponder over that story and you will understand why a conference like this is glaringly Baatil and satanic and why it must be opposed.
Reply

Search
10-26-2016, 06:39 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
That being said, The Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah are those who follow the Sunnah of the Prophet :saws: as per the understanding of his Sahabah, Tabi'een and Tabi' Tabi'een, ie the first three generations.
I'd agree with you except for one thing. Ahlus-Sunnah wa'l-Jama'ah have been described not only with sticking to the Sunnah as per the understanding of the three generations but also in avoiding/disregarding the invented matters and innovations in the deen (religion). However, Salafis' preeminent innovation in the deen is to seek kufr, shirk, and bidah in everything, even innocuous things like poems and praising Prophet :saws: and specific types of ruqya.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Reply

InToTheRain
10-26-2016, 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
:salam:

There are people here and on the internet who assume everyone who disagrees with them on anything to be a Salafi (or Wahhabi in their terminology).

Woe to every (kind of) scandal-monger and-backbiter, [104:1]

While not being a Salafi myself, I say this article has mixed a lot of facts with fiction.

Some of them:
Al-Azhar, while being a prestigious university, their Imam is not considered as the leader of sunni Muslims all over the world.
Al-Saud never claim to be descendants of the Prophet :saws:.
Mu'tazilah is not one of the authentic Sunni theological schools.
etc


That being said, The Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah are those who follow the Sunnah of the Prophet :saws: as per the understanding of his Sahabah, Tabi'een and Tabi' Tabi'een, ie the first three generations.
:salam:

Regarding Mu'Tazilah someone did point it out at the comments section but the blogger doesn't appear to have changed it.
Reply

InToTheRain
10-26-2016, 06:46 PM
FYI the Criterion for Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamah; does anyone have another?
http://masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/ahlsunna.htm
Reply

Search
10-26-2016, 06:47 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


Originally Posted by islamirama
There is no "wahabism" or "salafism" as the ignorant Muslims like to cry about and hate on. Saudi Muslims are no different than other Muslims in other nations. There are many among them termed "wahabi" but are better than these "wahabi" hater Muslims. These Muslims need to worry about themselves and their akhira rather then hating on other Muslims. In your arrogance and hatred, are you really a true Muslim hating on them?
Well, how nice. Except there's nothing like experience to teach one better. I was a recipient of Salafi dawah on the Internet. In fact, my first exposure and learning about Islam was from the well of Salafism. That said, I, since those early days of Islam know better. Salafism is just the opium of the Internet Muslims en masse, but it is not the traditional Islam to which Muslims have traditionally lain claim.

They are Sunni. The ones not sunni are the deviant sufi speakers like Hamza Yusuf and his institute that these ignorant Muslims listen to and can't "bear" the thought of anyone speaking out against these deviants. They should ask themselves, are you truly following Islam or your nafs and your celebrity shaiks ?
I have read about your dislike of Sufism and Hamza Yusuf. However, from what I understand, Salafism is the deviance and not Sufism. Undoubtedly, if you were to say that some Sufis have innovated matters and/or are astray in some matters, I'd agree with you. However, tasawwuf has been a big part of how Muslims have practiced ihsan and therefore anyone who speaks against Sufism in that vein to me is just worth ignoring. I'm not, by the way, saying this to convince you as I frankly could care less whether a person is Salafi or not. However, Salafism from my experience is poisonous to the iman (faith) of oneself and others; this has been borne out to me on the Internet and real life. The takfeeri mentality is most prominent in, no points for guessing, Salafis.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Reply

islamirama
10-26-2016, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Search
However, Salafis' preeminent innovation in the deen is to seek kufr, shirk, and bidah in everything, even innocuous things like poems and praising Prophet :saws: and specific types of ruqya.
I disagree. We are bound by the Quran to enjoin good and forbid evil. Someone has to speak out against all these bidahs people engage in. There is nothing wrong in poetry or praising the prophet :saws1: but deviant groups like Sufis go beyond the acceptable thrust hold of Islam. They become extreme in it and innovate things not part of Islam, as do other groups and people. Someone has to point that out and these groups hate it and so whien about it and in return turn against the saudi and accused them of be "extreme" for not allowing such bidah.
Reply

Search
10-26-2016, 06:54 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


Originally Posted by islamirama
I disagree. We are bound by the Quran to enjoin good and forbid evil. Someone has to speak out against all these bidahs people engage in. There is nothing wrong in poetry or praising the prophet :saws1: but deviant groups like Sufis go beyond the acceptable thrust hold of Islam. They become extreme in it and innovate things not part of Islam, as do other groups and people. Someone has to point that out and these groups hate it and so whien about it and in return turn against the saudi and accused them of be "extreme" for not allowing such bidah.
Have a look at IslamQA fatwas (rulings). Frankly, their representation of Islam is harsh, tyrannical, and inflexible. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
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islamirama
10-26-2016, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by Search

I have read about your dislike of Sufism and Hamza Yusuf. However, from what I understand, Salafism is the deviance and not Sufism. Undoubtedly, if you were to say that some Sufis have innovated matters and/or are astray in some matters, I'd agree with you. However, tasawwuf has been a big part of how Muslims have practiced ihsan and therefore anyone who speaks against Sufism in that vein to me is just worth ignoring. I'm not, by the way, saying this to convince you as I frankly could care less whether a person is Salafi or not. However, Salafism from my experience is poisonous to the iman (faith) of oneself and others; this has been borne out to me on the Internet and real life. The takfeeri mentality is most prominent in, no points for guessing, Salafis.
:wa:

You should read more if that's what you got from your readings. Sufism is one of the 72 deviant sects, this is an established fact among the scholars and the ummah.
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islamirama
10-26-2016, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)




Have a look at IslamQA fatwas (rulings). Frankly, their representation of Islam is harsh, tyrannical, and inflexible. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
They rulings are very conservative. That doesn't mean difference of opinion doesn't exist. However, to call it harsh, tyrannical and inflexible is to say exactly what I was saying, others label them "extreme" because they can't have the freedom to follow their "flexible" cherry picking ways, such as worshiping graves.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-26-2016, 07:00 PM
One of the Usool (principles) you learn when acquiring `Ilm is that a group is to be judged according to the leaders, not the laypeople. The allegation is made that "Salafis made Takfeer of everyone." The question is posed: "Which Salafis are you referring to?" The people who answer here will give names of laypeople they met on the internet who have made mass Takfeer. Those laypeople have not studied the Deen yet. Many of them perhaps entered Islaam recently. They have not yet learnt. Thus, their statements cannot be taken to be representative of "Salafism" as a whole. You have to look at what the leaders say and believe.

Did ibn al-`Uthaymeen make mass Takfeer? Bin Baaz? Ibn Jibreen? Did Huzaifi do it, or Shuraim? Shuraim even visits Darul Uloom Deoband. He doesn't regard them as being Kaafirs. And these are the Imaams of the Haramain.

So once again the question is posed: "Which Salafis are you referring to who are doing mass, unjustified Takfeer?"

We ask them to provide the names of the Salafi scholars who do this, not laypeople you may have met on a forum. Names, and what they have said.

Was-Salaam.
Reply

Search
10-26-2016, 07:03 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


Originally Posted by islamirama
:wa:

You should read more if that's what you got from your readings. Sufism is one of the 72 deviant sects, this is an established fact among the scholars and the ummah.
Have a read and a look into the biographies of Rumi, Junaid Baghdadi, Abdul Qadir Jilani, Imam Ghazali, Ibn Arabi and others (may Allah be pleased with them all). They are the gems of this ummah, and they were not following Sufism as a "sect" as you imagine but the reality of ihsan which is the purpose of every insan. Unless you move beyond the material reality of this world, you'll never be understand why Allah has us say in the shahada, "I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and messenger." We're not supposed to giving lip-service to bearing of this witness, otherwise we're bearing false witness because we haven't witnessed anything. We're supposed to be actually experiencing this as a reality which is what haqqul yaqeen means, and in this time almost no one has kashf which is why people are denying certain realities.

For example, in wudu, Imam Hanafi was literally able to see with his eyes the sins being washed away because Allah allowed him to see the reality of wudu (ablution) instead of just reading about it in a hadith (prophetic tradition). Also, I believe it was Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal who was asked why he actually goes to Sufis to learn and he said what do you know as they have all the knowledge. So, that person asked to prove that these Sufis are ignorant and not following shariah. So, he went to the person and asked, "What does a person have to do if he misses one of the 5 salats and doesn't remember which one it was that he missed?" Look at what the man responded, "Such a heart is negligent of Allah and therefore that ghafil person must punish his heart and repeat all his salats of the day." When the man responded this way, the person fainted. And the Imam said, "Didn't I tell you."

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Reply

Search
10-26-2016, 07:14 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
One of the Usool (principles) you learn when acquiring `Ilm is that a group is to be judged according to the leaders, not the laypeople. The allegation is made that "Salafis made Takfeer of everyone."
Who said they have made takfeer of everyone? This line was certainly not said by me and it certainly is not one that the aforesaid linked article said either.

The question is posed: "Which Salafis are you referring to?" The people who answer here will give names of laypeople they met on the internet who have made mass Takfeer. Those laypeople have not studied the Deen yet. Many of them perhaps entered Islaam recently. They have not yet learnt. Thus, their statements cannot be taken to be representative of "Salafism" as a whole. You have to look at what the leaders say and believe.
I'm sorry; that's not how it works. The product of Salafism cannot be said to exclude adherents on the Internet on in real life who themselves vociferously claim to be Salafi. Also, we could potentially have done as you said which is to say that they are new Muslims and therefore themselves don't know better except many of them have been Salafi for years and years and also quote and cite Salafi scholars verbatim on specific matters.

Also, finally, I'm linking you to Sheikh ‘Aadel Al-Kalbani, former imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, who has announced that ISIS is the true result of the Salafi version of Islam, and therefore there needs to be changes within the Salafi sect itself. Please do tell me if you think he's promoting falsehood against Salafism as well even though he himself is a Salafi. The article is titled, "Senior Wahabi Cleric: ‘ISIS Is A True Product Of Salafism.’"

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Reply

Search
10-26-2016, 07:20 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

Senior Wahabi Cleric: ‘ISIS Is A True Product Of Salafism’

Sheikh ‘Aadel Al-Kalbani, former imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca has announced that ISIS is the result of the Salafi version of Islam, and therefore there needs to be changes within the Salafi sect itself.

“ISIS is a true product of Salafism, and we must deal with it with full transparency.” This statement was made not by liberal Muslim elements, who regularly criticize Salafism, but by Sheikh ‘Aadel Al-Kalbani, former imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca and a Salafi himself, hence its importance. Al-Kalbani is not the first Salafi to come out against ISIS but Al-Kalbani has gone farther in his criticism: he has come out against the principles of the Salafi perception from which ISIS and its ilk draw, and has called for a rationalistic approach to Islam’s distant past and what it means for Islam today instead of a blind reenactment of it.

In two articles in the daily Al-Riyadh, Al-Kalbani criticized elements in the Salafi stream for appropriating the truth and Islam and for permitting the killing of their opponents, and likewise criticized clerics and society that dared not come out against them. He stated that the call to blindly reenact the path of the Prophet Muhammad and of the forefathers of Islam stems from a faulty grasp of the essence of this path, and that Muhammad himself had rejected blind adoption of the perceptions of the past and blind following of the path of his predecessors, choosing instead a rationalistic approach appropriate for a changing reality. Al-Kalbani stated that clerics must take their heads out of the sand and move with the spirit of the times instead of rejecting and condemning any new idea.

This is not the first time that Al-Kalbani has challenged the mainstream clerics. He has harshly attacked suicide bombings, published a fatwa permitting poetry and called for allowing women to drive cars.

The following are translated excerpts from his two recent articles in Al-Riyadh:

“ISIS Is A True Product Of Salafism And We Must Deal With It With Full Transparency”

On August 15, 2014, Sheikh Al-Kalbani tweeted (@abuabdelelah): “ISIS is a true product of Salafism and we must deal with it with full transparency.” DIRECT LINK TO TWEET HERE.
This statement sparked reactions across the social networks, and 10 days later, on August 24, Al-Kalbani wrote in an Al-Riyadh article titled “Is Terrorism A Salafi Product?”: “Every time we see the fitna network sweeping up young people from among our sons… [and pitching them into] to a very deep abyss from which they will emerge only by means of idioms that drip blood, our conscience torments us and we wonder: From whence has this come upon us? How have they fallen into this? As if we could not do a thing before then.

“But the opposite is true: The main reason for their deviation is our neglect – and by ‘our’ neglect I mean the [neglect of the] generation of the parents, and of the honorable members of society among the clerics, teachers, preachers, jurisprudents, and sociologists who are linked directly to that society. The words, the books, the sermons, the dramas, and all the artistic creativity and the essential link [to the audience] that these people present in all the media, whether print, radio, or television, [allow them] to monitor the ideas of the young people and to participate in balancing them. I exclude [of course] that tiniest of minorities whose throat is parched from warning about the extremism of the Salafis.

“Yes, this is the plant that has sprouted in the garbage dump of those who excessively pass judgment on others and pretend to represent Salafism. How gravely they have accused others of apostasy, of deviating from the right path, of heresy, and of licentiousness – as if the arena lies open before them and there is nobody to condemn them and no judge to punish them. Furthermore, they are received with feigned respect and admiration, and opportunities have been opened to them to plant in the minds of our young people that this one has gone astray and that one is an infidel and the other one is lax in religion. Even the greatest of clerics, past and present, are not spared their arrows. They spread the principles of Islam in a twisted manner that makes them incomprehensible or distorted, and preserve things that negate Islam. They measure the judge, the educated, and the student, and even the simple folk by what they [i.e. these extremists] have learned by heart [but] do not understand, and think that they are entitled to rule that the above mentioned are apostates and to call down upon them the punishments of Allah that are no longer implemented and [by so doing, they think that they will] restore the glory and splendor of monotheism.

“This group thinks that no one but itself and its supporters are the source of good and the defenders of monotheism – because [its members] imbibed with their mothers’ milk [the view] that all Muslims worldwide do not understand [monotheism] and that they are not worshipping only Allah but are polytheists who worship graves… and that there are no just clerics besides their own clerics and their disciples. [They think that] only a cleric whom they love, whom they heed and obey, and on whose say they reject or validate [others] – only he holds the truth and acts in accordance with the ways of[Islam’s] just forefathers… They spread out and multiply, and publicly call for following in the footsteps of some sheikh and for accepting his words in full.They have begun to classify people, preachers, and clerics – [for example,] this sheikh shouldn’t be listened to because he is more loathsome than the Jews and the Christians, and that fatwa deviates [from the right path], so it is forbidden to pray behind anyone who adopts it, or to sit with him, eat with him or respect him. They have begun… to separate the young people from the clerics who understand the result of [this activity by them] and what difficulties they are going to cause the nation.

“Actually, there is no connection between the path of these extremists and the [true] path of the Salafis – which is tolerance, compassion, and gentleness, and in which there is no place for extremism and [religious] fanaticism. [Salafism] is a path that spreads love, brotherhood, and acceptance of the other among Muslims and coexistence with non-Muslims. But the thing is to understand it and to implement it – and not [just to] pretend [to do so] – in a way that is compatible with the deep roots of the past and with the demands of the present.
“[However,] what is needed is a perception for reforming ideas, not admonitions, reproof, reactions and word-sparing that deal with the symptom and ignore the disease! There is still enough time to rehabilitate [these ideas], ideologically and practically, and to prevent society from splitting into sects and groups that throng after dignitaries who are enveloped in an aura of immunity [to sin and error] and sanctity, with each group thinking that it has the right to guide the nation and recruit its young people.

“A plant is always like its roots. If we want a good, fruitful plant, it is incumbent upon everyone to care for its roots, its water sources, the spread of its branches, and the fertility of the earth [from which it grows], and to protect it from ideas and viruses that turn its fruit and seeds to poison from which the generations sip and on which the young people grow up; from [these seeds] sprouts a plant that has in it no place for compassion and to whom love and friendship are totally alien.”

The Chains of the Past


On August 31, 2014, Al-Kalbani published another article, “The Chains of the Past,” in which he criticized the Salafism that advocates uncritical reliance on Islam’s past, and called for a rationalistic critical approach. He wrote: “We never stop elevating the past at any cost, so much so that it has taken over our lives and thwarted our management of our present, and I do not know what it will do to our future. We claim that the past is the perception, the deeds, and the outlook of the forefathers [of Islam], to the point where if a catastrophe happens to one of us, he hastens to seek a solution for his catastrophe in a book written hundreds of years ago! And then we shout loudly, ‘Islam is compatible with every time and every place[!]’
“What is very strange is that we remain trapped in the dungeons of the very distant past, chewing over the words of Malik [bin Anas], may the peace of Allah be upon him, ‘The last of this ummah will not be successful unless they follow the same [pattern] that was successful in the hands of its first ones,’ and think that what it means is that we must remain in the first century of the era of the mission [of the Prophet Muhammad], in the same style of life, and in the same patterns and knowledge that he had.

“From these words [of Malik bin Anas] I do not understand that our past [must] control our present and constrain our future; rather, I understand that [the past] is what caused the Prophet’s honorable Companions to change their perception, and brought about their wonderful transition from the caves of darkness and straying into the light of truth… What improved the situation of the first generation [of Islam] was not preserving the heritage of the forefathers and the ideas of the previous generations, but the complete opposite. The first generation [of Islam] abandoned the [pattern] of blind imitation, and with the descent [of Koran 96:1] ‘Recite in the name of your Lord,’ the use of the mind began, after it was neglected for many centuries; the wagon of change began to move and to shift the bitter reality full of oppression, backwardness, and idolatry with lofty and clear rational truths. They [the members of the first generation] opened their eyes to what had [always] been in front of them, but which the fog of imitating what their forefathers did had prevented them from seeing… until the honored Koran arrived and removed this fog and enabled them to see what they had been blind to, and to distinguish what they had not noticed [before].

“In the same spirit, I want the past to free us from the yoke of the backwards present – not drag us towards it. I want our past to make us see reality as it is, and for us to rely on it in the areas of development and culture, and for us to emerge from it with momentum towards the horizons of the future and with an enlightened perception. This [should be done] under the direction of the two revelations [the Koran and the Sunna] – and not by means of the opinions of people who have invested most of their efforts in studying that era [of early Islam].

“We should rely on the past as a foundation from which we head out to the future and to the building of the present; this is better than turning the past into [something] that binds our hands and arouses among us rivalry, conflict, and opinions for which we fight and as a result of which we weaken and splinter. Had we done this [from the outset], we would be sitting on the throne of the pinnacle of culture.

“We must acknowledge that our past contains things that are not compatible with our present. The religious collapse of the West happened only after it became fully aware of the depth of the yawning chasm between the scientific knowledge that serves the culture that the human mind has attained and the religious beliefs and laws set out by the church, which included beliefs that had been distorted or misunderstood, or were not appropriate for every time.

“From among those who call for absolute adherence to the past there has emerged a young generation that defends and fights for opinions and ways that are devoid of the [the correct] Islamic concepts and religious views that can guide the ummah in the right direction. This gang, that has granted itself the right to banish minds, has not grasped the situation of the ummah, and has not managed to adapt to [today’s reality]; therefore its path is to subdue the other or to accuse him of apostasy and of deviating from the right path. [These people] can be found in all walks of life, preventing men of insight from advancing and catching up to the present, and anyone who criticizes them and points out their mistakes is accused of being Khawarij[1] – an accusation tailored for such [critics]. Anyone who talks about women’s rights is deviating from the right path and is loathsome and is lax in religion. Anyone who expresses a wise opinion that has been covered up and ignored because it contradicts their Salafism, is going against the vast majority of the people… and so on…

“What is strange is that these radical extremists who accuse their opponents of heresy and of apostasy acknowledge neither the stagnation of their own perception and ideas nor the worthlessness of their religious law, and thus do not recognize that they have left seeds that are today inflicting suffering and torment on the ummah.”

Notes:
[1] Term referring to a rebel cult in early Islam that split off from the army of Ali ibn Abi Talib at the Battle of Siffin in 657.
Reply

islamirama
10-26-2016, 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

Senior Wahabi Cleric: ‘ISIS Is A True Product Of Salafism’

Sheikh ‘Aadel Al-Kalbani, former imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca has announced that ISIS is the result of the Salafi version of Islam, and therefore there needs to be changes within the Salafi sect itself.
So if some imam in india had said that then would the title have been "senior deobandi cleric" approves? Imam of the haraim doesn't mean you are a senior cleriic. It just means you are one of the imams from so many local mosques who got promoted to be an imam at the bigger and main masjid. An imam is not a scholar nor does he represent Islam or speak for Islam in everything he says. This is his personal opinion and not something backed by Scholars or rest of Hanabli Muslims of Saudi.
Reply

Search
10-26-2016, 09:56 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

You've clearly misunderstood my post and therefore are refuting a point that I haven't even made. It is not about his exact rank in Saudi Arabia. Also, it is also not about whether he "represent[s] Islam" as clearly you'll have been able to glean as, with what I've said here and previously, that I don't believe Salafis speak for traditional Islam. Instead, I'm asking directly if he's promoting falsehood against Salafism even though he himself is a Salafi. Is he, yes or no?

Originally Posted by islamirama
So if some imam in india had said that then would the title have been "senior deobandi cleric" approves? Imam of the haraim doesn't mean you are a senior cleriic. It just means you are one of the imams from so many local mosques who got promoted to be an imam at the bigger and main masjid. An imam is not a scholar nor does he represent Islam or speak for Islam in everything he says. This is his personal opinion and not something backed by Scholars or rest of Hanabli Muslims of Saudi.
:wa: (And peace be upon you)


Reply

AabiruSabeel
10-26-2016, 10:11 PM
Shaikh Adil Al-Kalbani is not "promoting" falsehood against anyone. He is just stating his opinion, given that Salafism also has a lot of sub-divisions, some of them more extreme than others.

But what some extreme Sufis are doing here and in such articles is directly promoting falsehood against a whole group of people, out of their hatred against them due to their prevention of some of the Sufis' innovated practices.
Reply

islamirama
10-26-2016, 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)
I'm asking directly if he's promoting falsehood against Salafism even though he himself is a Salafi. Is he, yes or no?



:wa: (And peace be upon you)


:wa:

He is expressing his opinion which is contrary to what salafi school of thought is. But this is a moot point to use to validate the sufis. Sufism is a sect of and in itself that is deviant and is among the 72 deviant sects of Islam. This is not my opinion or viewpoint nor any imam but rather prominent scholars of Ahle Sunnah wal jammah.
Reply

Huzaifah ibn Adam
10-26-2016, 10:16 PM
Two things:

1) Kalbaani is wrong.

2) Kalbaani is not a proof. His words are not Wahi from Allaah. He is not a Nabi. He is a human. Every human besides the Ambiyaa gets certain things right and certain things wrong. They err. They make mistakes. This is one of his mistakes. What exactly about "Salafism" does he want to change? He doesn't want to change "Salafism". He wants to change Islaam. He wants to change the Qur'aan and the Ahaadeeth. For example, there is a Hadeeth which says homosexuals who commit sodomy are to be killed. He will want to remove this Hadeeth. Pretend it was never said. But no amount of pretense is going to make it "unsaid". He can pretend but the Kaafir world that he is trying to please will always know that it was said. That is the fact of the matter. Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم said it. Neither he nor a galaxy of "scholars for dollars" can "un-say it". And you know what? People who do that shouldn't bother to call themselves Muslims. They may as well wear a cross and pray in a church. But if a person is trying to change Islaam, then he is not Muslim. You either accept Islaam as it is, or you don't accept it. The entire Deen of Islaam is based on Wahi from Allaah Ta`aalaa. Thus, it is Divine. The moment people start tampering in it, editing, adding and subtracting, it is no longer Islaam and is no longer Divine. The product of their tampering is man-made and cannot be referred to as "Islaam", because their tampering is not based on Wahi from Allaah.

Was-Salaam.
Reply

Search
10-26-2016, 10:21 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


Originally Posted by islamirama
:wa:

He is expressing his opinion which is contrary to what salafi school of thought is. But this is a moot point to use to validate the sufis. Sufism is a sect of and in itself that is deviant and is among the 72 deviant sects of Islam. This is not my opinion or viewpoint nor any imam but rather prominent scholars of Ahle Sunnah wal jammah.
Well, you can continue to defend Salafism; and I presume I'll continue to disagree with you on the subject. This thread, by the way, is not about Sufism. That said, if you have time from following Salafism, do ask Allah to give you guidance on the matter of Sufism rather than blind-following Salafi understanding of Sufism. Just because Salafism has an overpowering presence on the Internet doesn't mean that you're right to deny Sufism; it is onus on you to discover and search for the truth on the matter of Sufism just as you would ask a person to do so on Islam who was, say, a Christian, a Jew, or a Hindu.

"Is the blind equivalent to the seeing? Then will you not give thought?" [Qur'an 6:50]

Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “When Allah wishes good for someone, He bestows upon him the understanding of the Deen.” [Bukhari]

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
Reply

islamirama
10-26-2016, 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by Search
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


Well, you can continue to defend Salafism; and I presume I'll continue to disagree with you on the subject. This thread, by the way, is not about Sufism. That said, if you have time from following Salafism, do ask Allah to give you guidance on the matter of Sufism rather than blind-following Salafi understanding of Sufism. Just because Salafism has an overpowering presence on the Internet doesn't mean that you're right to deny Sufism; it is onus on you to discover and search for the truth on the matter of Sufism just as you would ask a person to do so on Islam who was, say, a Christian, a Jew, or a Hindu.

"Is the blind equivalent to the seeing? Then will you not give thought?" [Qur'an 6:50]

Prophet :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “When Allah wishes good for someone, He bestows upon him the understanding of the Deen.” [Bukhari]

:wa: (And peace be upon you)

There are groups that claim to be salafi that are ignorant and extreme. I've heard of them and know of their hang out sites. There are also modern "salafi" who follow their own deviant understanding and extremism. To them if you are not one of them then you are are lost. I have no desire to defend them nor do I speak of them. The salafi i defend are the ones that stick to the Quran and Sunnah and are Muslims. I am not a salafi nor do i describe myself as one.

As for Sufism, I have read up on them and know very well the deviancy of their sect. The onus is on you to research about the deviant sect you follow and free your mind from blindly following them and trying to defend them. You won't even listen to anyone giving evidence of the misguidance of your beloved shaiks like hamza yusuf and yet you talk about research and hidayah? perhaps you should listen to the advice you give and for once really study into sufism from Ahle Sunnah Wal Jammah sources and not your sufi shayks. Is Your akhira more important to you or these deviant shayks?
Reply

ardianto
10-26-2016, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
Shaikh Adil Al-Kalbani is not "promoting" falsehood against anyone. He is just stating his opinion, given that Salafism also has a lot of sub-divisions, some of them more extreme than others.
Salafism is different than Manhaj as-Salaf. Salafism is an extreme ideology which its follower believe that they are the only Muslims who follow the right Islam and other Muslims outside their group are deviants who follow innovators.

The true Salafis are those who follow Manhaj as-Salaf, not follow salafism.
Reply

Zafran
10-26-2016, 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
Two things:

1) Kalbaani is wrong.

2) Kalbaani is not a proof. His words are not Wahi from Allaah. He is not a Nabi. He is a human. Every human besides the Ambiyaa gets certain things right and certain things wrong. They err. They make mistakes. This is one of his mistakes. What exactly about "Salafism" does he want to change? He doesn't want to change "Salafism". He wants to change Islaam. He wants to change the Qur'aan and the Ahaadeeth. For example, there is a Hadeeth which says homosexuals who commit sodomy are to be killed. He will want to remove this Hadeeth. Pretend it was never said. But no amount of pretense is going to make it "unsaid". He can pretend but the Kaafir world that he is trying to please will always know that it was said. That is the fact of the matter. Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم said it. Neither he nor a galaxy of "scholars for dollars" can "un-say it". And you know what? People who do that shouldn't bother to call themselves Muslims. They may as well wear a cross and pray in a church. But if a person is trying to change Islaam, then he is not Muslim. You either accept Islaam as it is, or you don't accept it. The entire Deen of Islaam is based on Wahi from Allaah Ta`aalaa. Thus, it is Divine. The moment people start tampering in it, editing, adding and subtracting, it is no longer Islaam and is no longer Divine. The product of their tampering is man-made and cannot be referred to as "Islaam", because their tampering is not based on Wahi from Allaah.

Was-Salaam.
salaam

Talk about the ultimate straw man - If you read the article you'll see some important points that that need to change

Originally Posted by Search
This is not the first time that Al-Kalbani has challenged the mainstream clerics. He has harshly attacked suicide bombings, published a fatwa permitting poetry and called for allowing women to drive cars.
Of course points that you'll ignore. I also find it odd how people have such a hard time in accepting that modernity and salafi thought have created a huge disaster - Not to mention the sectarian wars.
Reply

islamirama
10-27-2016, 12:48 AM
"The 'Wahhabi' Myth" is a landmark achievement in clarifying many of the gross inaccuracies and outright lies that have been attributed to the belief of the Salafee Muslims. Although some reporters and Western orientalist scholars have been vigilant enough to rebut these widespread fables, most have fallen headfirst into what one discerning reporter called, "the neo-conservative line that the whole conspiracy against America can be traced back to Wahabism and the government of Saudi Arabia."

BOOK : http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6103974/f/thewahhabimyth.pdf
Reply

Delete.
10-27-2016, 12:57 AM
Fear Allah, the angels are recording each word you type. We are all laypeople.
Reply

islamirama
10-27-2016, 02:12 AM
What Is A Wahabi? Who Are The Wahabi's?

Sheikh Faiz

(8 mins)

https://www.youtube.com/embed/NVQBup4ed9Q


Who Are The Wahabis and What Is Their Message?

Abu Mussab Wajdi Akkari

(13 mins)

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=akB852Bcv4c


Full Lecture

All You Need To Know About Wahabism, what is wahabism? who are wahabi

Abu Mussab Wajdi Akkari

(1 hr 18 mins)

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Ncf2zvMHtZs




Reply

فصيح الياسين
10-27-2016, 02:27 AM
I am extremely against wahabism or now days salafism . But aima of haramain are hanabilas also. I saw extreme difference between wahabis. Some belive on bukhari only. Some on bukhari and muslim only. Some on sehai sitta but against usool . Some accepts all usool so mixed the 4 madhaib. Well i am really really sick of them
Reply

islamirama
10-27-2016, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by فصيح الياسين
I am extremely against wahabism or now days salafism . Well i am really really sick of them
You desi people and the sufis since they speak out against sufi grave worships and your pir babas and shrine visits and taweez and other bidah. Then again anyone who speaks out against such bidah and shirk practices is labeled as "wahabi" .
Reply

فصيح الياسين
10-27-2016, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
You desi people and the sufis since they speak out against sufi grave worships and your pir babas and shrine visits and taweez and other bidah. Then again anyone who speaks out against such bidah and shirk practices is labeled as "wahabi" .
Alhumdulillah i follow sufism to clean my heart. I never went to any baba. Nor i went to graves for worship but only for to realise tht i will be one of them. We ask frm allah bro..
People mostly dnt understand wht sufism is.. or which they see is really opposite to reality...
Reply

islamirama
10-27-2016, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by فصيح الياسين
People mostly dnt understand wht sufism is.. or which they see is really opposite to reality...
You are right, people really don't understand what sufism is. Since mgmt here doesn't like speaking out against falsehood, the sufi thread has been deleted. But if you look on youtube, you'll find many prominent islamic speakers speaking about what sufism is really about and how it is nothing more than a deviant sect.
Reply

AabiruSabeel
10-27-2016, 05:39 PM
Threads like these are not constructive in uniting the Ummah. Instead of trying to bring all Muslims together, we keep calling each other names and highlighting the differences.

Allah :swt: says,
وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِحَبْلِ اللَّهِ جَمِيعًا وَلَا تَفَرَّقُوا ۚ وَاذْكُرُوا نِعْمَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ إِذْ كُنتُمْ أَعْدَاءً فَأَلَّفَ بَيْنَ قُلُوبِكُمْ فَأَصْبَحْتُم بِنِعْمَتِهِ إِخْوَانًا وَكُنتُمْ عَلَىٰ شَفَا حُفْرَةٍ مِّنَ النَّارِ فَأَنقَذَكُم مِّنْهَا ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ يُبَيِّنُ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ آيَاتِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ
And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided. [3:103]


This is why we do not allow discussions on sectarian issues. Focus on the basics of Islam first, and then proceed to learn in-depth theology and jurisprudence.

:threadclo
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