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ethanhartly
11-26-2016, 12:14 PM
Hello everyone,

I'm new here, And before I start this, I don't know a lot about Islam, I don't know much about it, All what I know is that, This religion is so disliked by my family, my local church, my friends.

I came here because I want to know the truth and it's been making my brain really void since I knew about this religion.

See, my local church and my family have said many things about Muslims,Mohamed,Koran, and they have talked absolute trash about it.

For instance, the priest called Mohamed a false prophet, and he was never mentioned in the bible, he even crossed the line and said that he doesn't even exist.

Now what makes me quiet is that, IF he is surely a false prophet , then why are there 1.8 billion people following him? if he is so generous, kind , and merciful, then why are we saying that he is a false prophet, if he has all of these lovely characteristics?

It makes me go back to the Bible and question if he was prophesied.We Christians say that he wasn't, for example, I believe you guys say that Gabriel came to Mohamed and taught him the Koran? I told this to my priest and he said it could've been a devil. he also said "Here's a few points to think about -
- The Koran declares that Christians find Muhammad mentioned in our scriptures. Yet our scriptures call Muhammad an antichrist (1 John 2:22-23).
- According to Muslim sources, Muhammad once delivered a revelation from the devil (the "Satanic Verses").
- When Muhammad began receiving revelations, his first impression of these revelations was that they were demonic.
- Muhammad ordered his followers to kill apostates, even if they had good reasons for leaving Islam.
- The Koran commands Muslims to violently subjugate Jews and Christians"



And also it says in the Bible,
I John 2:22–23. Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Not to mention “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” - John 14:6

There are many more verses in the bible which kind of point out that, Mohamed wasn't prophesied in the bible, one verse says that if an angel comes and teaches another gospel other than the gospel that it's currently teaching (the bible) then he is condemned, and as we see today muslims are hated by everyone now.

I am confused in this because I've heard some stories on how merciful Mohamed was , and how good he was but as I said my local church's priest gave these arguments.

And Muslims also say that in the Koran it says Mohamed was mentioned in the Bible, even though he wasn't , which proves the koran wrong?

Please note that , I am in no way hating this religion , I have many good views on it its just that my church and my family have negative points which I also need clarification about, so here are my questions.

- Is Mohamed really prophesied in the bible? what is the strongest evidence suggesting that he was ?

- Did he exist?


Thank you.God Bless.
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Scimitar
11-26-2016, 03:02 PM
Peace be upon you and welcome to the forum :)

You will find these to be of much use to you, God willing.





















God bless,

Scimi
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Scimitar
11-26-2016, 03:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
Hello everyone,

I'm new here, And before I start this, I don't know a lot about Islam, I don't know much about it, All what I know is that, This religion is so disliked by my family, my local church, my friends.

I came here because I want to know the truth and it's been making my brain really void since I knew about this religion.

See, my local church and my family have said many things about Muslims,Mohamed,Koran, and they have talked absolute trash about it.

For instance, the priest called Mohamed a false prophet, and he was never mentioned in the bible, he even crossed the line and said that he doesn't even exist.

Now what makes me quiet is that, IF he is surely a false prophet , then why are there 1.8 billion people following him? if he is so generous, kind , and merciful, then why are we saying that he is a false prophet, if he has all of these lovely characteristics?

It makes me go back to the Bible and question if he was prophesied.We Christians say that he wasn't, for example, I believe you guys say that Gabriel came to Mohamed and taught him the Koran? I told this to my priest and he said it could've been a devil. he also said "Here's a few points to think about -
- The Koran declares that Christians find Muhammad mentioned in our scriptures. Yet our scriptures call Muhammad an antichrist (1 John 2:22-23).
I've read the New Testament (many times), and have not seen this claim. Can you show me?

format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
According to Muslim sources, Muhammad once delivered a revelation from the devil (the "Satanic Verses").
And it was abrogated fast when Gabriel informed Muhammad pbuh that the verse he was revealed was from satan.

Let's not forget - satan also came to Jesus to tempt him to go astray too - does this now disqualify Jesus as and holy man?

You see dear sister, A double standard such as this only exposes the hypocrisy of the priests and scholars within Christianity, however i'm not so arrogant that i'll tarnish them all with this brush, but I have to admit, a good few of them do deserve to see that proverbial mirror, so to speak.
format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
- When Muhammad began receiving revelations, his first impression of these revelations was that they were demonic.
Understandably so, an otherworldy entity, an Angel, appears to a man. How is man supposed to react? With fear. These are powerful beings. Whereas we are but flesh and blood.

You claim you read the bible, so you'd know that whenever God sent angels to men, they first feared them outright - let's not forget Abraham pbuh whom was visited by three angels and became terrified and cowered. I can cite many other examples here, but you know I do not need to, especially given tht whenever Angels turned up on earth, it was usually to destroy a civilization. Soddom, Gomorrha, et al.

Trembling in fear in the close proximity of an Angel is perfectly normal.
Or did you think they were fairies?

format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
- Muhammad ordered his followers to kill apostates, even if they had good reasons for leaving Islam.
Apostasy is divided into two types: major and minor. Muslim scholars, using the Prophet’s traditions as their guide, have divided unbelief, idolatry, hypocrisy, and sin into major and minor categories. Likewise, there is a distinction between an apostate who intends to physically harm the community and an apostate who only spiritually harms himself.
Minor apostasy is when a person embraces Islam while knowing its virtues and later rejects it. There is no legal punishment for the minor apostate as long as they do not try to physically harm the Muslim community. Major apostasy is when a person embraces Islam while knowing its virtues and later rejects it and adds to this a call for violent rebellion against the Muslim authorities. Such a crime is equivalent to high treason and in its most severe case can carry the death penalty as an act of self-defense for the community.
Allah said:
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا ثُمَّ آمَنُوا ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا ثُمَّ ازْدَادُوا كُفْرًا لَّمْ يَكُنِ اللَّهُ لِيَغْفِرَ لَهُمْ وَلَا لِيَهْدِيَهُمْ سَبِيلًا
Verily, those who believed and then disbelieved, then believed and then disbelieved and increased in disbelief, never will Allah forgive them nor will He guide them to a right way.
Surah An-Nisa 4:137
In this verse, Allah describes a person who apostates from Islam twice and He does not prescribe legal punishment for him, but rather He only warns the apostate about severe punishment in the Hereafter. This demonstrates that the general rule is an apostate should be left alone, as the Quran prohibits compulsion in religion.
Allah said:
لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ
There is no compulsion in religion. The truth is distinct from misguidance.
Surah Al-Baqarah 2:256
And He said:
وَقُلِ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكُمْ فَمَن شَاءَ فَلْيُؤْمِن وَمَن شَاءَ فَلْيَكْفُرْ
Say: The truth is from your Lord. So whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve.
Surah Al-Kahf 18:29
Because of this, the Prophet did not punish people simply because they rejected Islam.
Jabir reported: A bedouin came to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and gave the pledge of allegiance for embracing Islam. The next day he came with a fever and said, “Please cancel my pledge.” The Prophet refused three times and he said:
الْمَدِينَةُ كَالْكِيرِ تَنْفِي خَبَثَهَا، وَيَنْصَعُ طَيِّبُهَا
Medina is like a furnace. It expels its impurities and collects what is pure.
Source: Sahih Bukhari 1784, Grade: Sahih
In this example, a man rejected Islam after embracing it but the Prophet did not apply legal punishment to him.
Regarding the major apostasy, the Prophet was clear in advising us that legal punishment is not applied to a minor apostate, but only a major apostate.
Abdullah ibn Mas’ud reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, applied legal punishment in the following case:
وَالتَّارِكُ لِدِينِهِ الْمُفَارِقُ لِلْجَمَاعَةِ
The one who leaves his religion and separates from the community.
Source: Sahih Muslim 1676, Grade: Sahih
The reference to one who “separates from the community” (al-mufariq lil-jama’ah) indicates that a person is not legally punished simply for not practicing Islam, but rather for high treason against Muslim authorities. (treason is still punished by death in the world - UK, USA etc all practice this) This is made even clearer in another narration in which the Prophet describes the major apostate as:
رَجُلٌ يَخْرُجُ مِنَ الإِسْلاَمِ يُحَارِبُ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ وَرَسُولَهُ
A man who rejects Islam and wages war against Allah the Exalted and His Messenger.
Source: Sunan An-Nasa’i 4048
Ibn Abbas said:
فَمَنْ قَتَلَ وَأَفْسَدَ فِي الأَرْضِ وَحَارَبَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ ثُمَّ لَحِقَ بِالْكُفَّارِ قَبْلَ أَنْ يُقْدَرَ عَلَيْهِ لَمْ يَمْنَعْهُ ذَلِكَ أَنْ يُقَامَ فِيهِ الْحَدُّ الَّذِي أَصَابَ
Whoever kills others, spreads corruption in the land, wages war against Allah and His Messenger, and he joins the unbelievers before he is subdued, then there is nothing to prevent the legal punishment from being applied to him because of what he did.
Source: Sunan An-Nasa’i 4046
Indeed, some of the companions interpreted the phrase this way and described an apostate as:
حَارَبَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ
One who wages are against Allah and His Messenger.
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 4334, Grade: Sahih
What can be understood from these narrations is that legal punishment is only applied to a person who combines apostasy with high treason. This is because the Quran prohibits compulsion in religion as a general rule and therefore the believers should be the most restrained of the people when it comes to taking life.
Abdullah ibn Mas’ud reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
أَعَفُّ النَّاسِ قِتْلَةً أَهْلُ الْإِيمَانِ
The most restrained of the people regarding killing are the people of faith.
Source: Musnad Ahmad 3720, Grade: Sahih
Furthermore, cases of major apostasy do not necessitate the death penalty if a single Muslim seeks protection for the apostate.
Ibn Abbas reported:
كَانَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ سَعْدِ بْنِ أَبِي سَرْحٍ يَكْتُبُ لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَأَزَلَّهُ الشَّيْطَانُ فَلَحِقَ بِالْكُفَّارِ فَأَمَرَ بِهِ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أَنْ يُقْتَلَ يَوْمَ الْفَتْحِ فَاسْتَجَارَ لَهُ عُثْمَانُ بْنُ عَفَّانَ فَأَجَارَهُ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ
Abdullah ibn Sa’d ibn Abi Sarh would write to the Messenger of Allah but the devil deceived him and he joined the unbelievers. The Messenger of Allah ordered that he should be killed on the day of liberation, but Uthman ibn Affan sought protection for him, so the Messenger of Allah granted him protection.
Source: Sunan Abu Dawud 4358, Grade: Sahih
In this example, a man embraced Islam and then rejected it by joining the idolaters of Mecca who at the time were waging war against the Muslims. When Mecca surrendered to the Prophet without a fight, Uthman ibn Affan sought protection for this apostate and the Prophet honored this covenant. This is because, as a general rule, the protection granted by a single Muslim should be honored by all Muslims.
Ali ibn Abu Talib reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
ذِمَّةُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ وَاحِدَةٌ يَسْعَى بِهَا أَدْنَاهُمْ
The covenant of the Muslims is one covenant, and they strive to fulfill it among the least of them.
Source: Sunan Al-Kubra Al-Bayhaqi 15464, Grade: Sahih
In conclusion, the death penalty for apostasy is restricted by the Prophet’s other statements and actions which make clear that this punishment applies only to those who commit high treason against the Muslim community.

format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
- The Koran commands Muslims to violently subjugate Jews and Christians"
I can pull up the verse in question and the applicable context to it, but there's an even simpler way to disprove the claim. 1400+ years, not one example of a recognised Muslim Authority subjugating Jews and Christians - in fact when Jerusalem was ruled by Muslims, guess what? Jews were allowed to practice their faith freely and even judge their own according to their own laws, same with the Christians... is this subjugation?

When Jerusalem was threatened by outsiders, the Muslims defended it, while the Jews and Christians of the city remained safe and protected from the battles taking place outside of their own walls - where is the subjugation? Had the Muslims not been there to defend the city, the Jews and Christians would have been crushed.

The Jews and Christians paid a Dhimmi tax which was actually lower than the standard Zakaat tax the Muslims were paying - where is the subjugation?

I see many claims by Christians which, when examined, crumble.
format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
And also it says in the Bible, I John 2:22–23. Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Muslims believe that Jesus pbuh is The Messiah, Christ. BUt English speaking unilingual folk don't even know what "Messiah" means. You think it means "God" lol.

The correct understanding of the word is "one who is anointed with anointing oil, chosen for a special task" - not son of God...

...That's the semitic Hebrew understanding of it - in the correct context - same as what Arabs believe because our two languages are related through common roots. Both, Arabic and Aramaic Hebrew are Semitic languages. while English speakers are reading the bible translated from Greek (which Jesus pbuh never spoke) to other languages and then again to other languages... and the KJV was written by whom? Francis Bacon - who was a 33rd degree freemason... so I ask, how reliable are your definitions? What is Messiah to you?

format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
Not to mention “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” - John 14:6
Lovely verse - which prophet and messenger of God didn't say this? Find me one.

format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
There are many more verses in the bible which kind of point out that, Mohamed wasn't prophesied in the bible, one verse says that if an angel comes and teaches another gospel other than the gospel that it's currently teaching (the bible) then he is condemned, and as we see today muslims are hated by everyone now.
This claim is debunked in the videos I posted above. Please have a look.

format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
I am confused in this because I've heard some stories on how merciful Mohamed was , and how good he was but as I said my local church's priest gave these arguments.
Ask your priest to join us God willing, I believe it is time to kill his bias.

format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
And Muslims also say that in the Koran it says Mohamed was mentioned in the Bible, even though he wasn't , which proves the koran wrong?
And if I show you where the very word MUHAMMAD is mention in the Songs of Solomon 5:16 - will you then claim it is a "coincidence" in the Old Testament? suggesting that God makes mistakes?

Did you know that in Hebrew Aramaic there is no word for coincidence? Because it's a false concept - so the very word cannot be used in conversation - thus, every seeming coincidence is a proof that God wills. Hence, when Muhammad is mentioned by name in the songs of Solomon 5:16 - clear as day, complete with the Hebrew suffix of respect for a venerated personality - "IM" - at the enf of the name Muhammad - to make it Muhammad-im - we can clearly see the context is proving a person and not a city. If it was Jerusalem he was singing about, the word used would be Jerusal-IM. NOT MUHAMMD-IM.

format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
Please note that , I am in no way hating this religion , I have many good views on it its just that my church and my family have negative points which I also need clarification about, so here are my questions.
Questions are always welcome :) And I welcome your questions.
format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
Thank you.God Bless.
And God bless you too

Scimi
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Al Sultan
11-26-2016, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
And it was abrogated fast when Gabriel informed Muhammad pbuh that the verse he was revealed was from satan.
Wait really?? is there a verse or a hadith speaking about this..this is my first time hearing about this brother.. but hadillah Gabriel informed Mohammed about it.
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Scimitar
11-26-2016, 05:45 PM
Did satan not approach Abraham pbuh as well? and other prophets pbut to tempt them away from truth?

Even Jesus pbuh, whom the Christians venerate as God or son of God (na'udhubillah) was tempted by satan. Theologically, the Christians have lost sight of theology when they claim the satan - a creation of God, was able to tempt their God.

This, is a massive red herring argument from Christians.

So when I show them that mirror, they often go away and have to "think about it". They never come back.

Scimi
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Al Sultan
11-26-2016, 05:48 PM
True,Satan tried to misguide all prophets.
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Good brother
11-26-2016, 08:21 PM
Actually Prophet Muhammad name was mentioned in song of songs:
https://islamicnafahat.wordpress.com...-in-the-bible/

Refering to the so called "ghranic story":

Ibn Kathir said; ‘All the links of this Tradition are unauthentic and I have found no correct version of this with continuous links.’ (Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir 5/441-442)

Shaukani says, ‘There is nothing true in it and none of its links is proved.’ (Fath al-Qadeer 5/128)

Ibn Jawzi says: ‘This is not correct.’ (Zaad al-Muyassar 4/391)

When Ibn Khuzaimah was asked about it, he said, "This story has been invented by heretics". (Tafsir al-Raazi 11/134)

Baihaqi said; "This story has not been proved to be correct by the rules of reporting". (Tafsir a-Raazi 11/135)

Qazi `Ayad says, "The very fact that this tradition is neither contained in any of the authentic collections of Hadith nor has it been related in an authentic way by authentic reporters shows its weakness". (Al-Shifa 2/125)

Besides them, Imam Razi (in his Tafsir 11/135), Qazi Abu Bakr Ibn al-`Arabi (Al-Shifa 2/126), Alusi (in his Tafsir 13/99) etc. have rejected it altogether.

Qadi Fudayl ibn ‘Iyaad the famous Maliki Jurist, Imam Ibn Kathir one of the top interpreters of Qur’an and our contemporary Shaykh Nasir-ud-Din al Albani رحمه الله have declared both of the narrations as complete FABRICATIONS.Shaykh Nasir-ud-Din al Albani رحمه الله wrote a booklet named:Nasb al-Majaniq li-Nasf Qissat al-Gharaniq (“The Hoisting of Catapults for the Destruction of the Story of the Cranes”) Moreover, another contemporary Shaykh of our times, Shaykh Yasir Qadhi حفظ الله has also stated that these narrations are COMPLETEY BASELESS. There are many reasons to it:
1) It is impossible that satan comes to Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلمand he صلى الله عليه و سلم obeys him
2) No one can tamper with the Qur’an so satan can not add/delete into the Qur’an by whispering to Prophet صلى الله علسه و سلم
3) Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم was, as all the Prophets عليهم سلام sinless and he was the best creation of Allah سبحانه و تعالى , i.e. can never commit sins let alone shirk. Allah سبحا نه و سعالى saved him from sins الحمد الله
4) If we believe that the Qur’an can not be tampered, then second narration is to be ignored. Therefore, it is impossible that satan would come to Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم telling him to do Sajdah on something haram
5) There is the ayah of Sajdah hearing which Prophet صلى الله علسه و سلم did Sajdah not any other reason
6) Satan’s coming to whisper Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم doesn’t make sense if analyse the situation contextually, i.e. the context of the ayaat Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم was reciting. Allah سبحانه و تعالى was ridiculing the mushrikin by saying,

Then which of the Graces of your Lord (O man!) will you doubt. This (Muhammad SAW) is a warner (Messenger) of the (series of) warners (Messengers) of old. The Day of Resurrection draws near; none besides Allah can avert it, (or advance it, or delay it). Do you then wonder at this recital (the Quran)? And you laugh at it and weep not, wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing, etc.). So fall you down in prostration to Allah, and worship Him (Alone). {Surah an-Najm, ayaat 55-62**

If Allah سبحانه و تعالى was questioning the mushrikin about their wonderment regarding the Qur’an and telling them that they are wasting their lives, then how can this 3 false god issue occur? It doesn’t make sense to say the least.

7) Both narrations (as mentioned above) are fabrications, baseless, lies which were thoroughly checked by Scholars.

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ic-verses.html

Allah knows best.
Reply

greenhill
11-27-2016, 01:31 AM
Welcome to the forum.

It is really nice to hear that you also have your point of view and reasoning skills. It really warms the heart to learn that despite the very 'anti' feelings against islam surrounding you, you still have the capacity to search and verify it yourself.

Further to add to br. Scimi's statements, prophet Ayub (Job) would be another prime example where the Devil really did his work...

Another point is that, all prophets were foretold of their coming by the previous ones… hence prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was also foretold and there were people sent to await his arrival (according to the signed given). However, when he did appear (despite the signs beings correct) the message of truth were too much for those waiting and they rejected the message, the same way they rejected the Messiah. Jesus pretty much 'told off' the Jewish priests because they deviated from the message and they rejected Jesus. Muhammad, (pbuh) did the same (albeit in nicer way) and still was rejected by the Jews (hence the Christians followed suit)...

It (the Books - Psalms, Torah, Bible and the Quran) are a series of messages from the AlMighty with incremental points or learning for mankind ..

Wishing you a great stay.



:peace:
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ethanhartly
11-28-2016, 06:56 PM
Hello again, Thank you for the replies.


format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
I've read the New Testament (many times), and have not seen this claim. Can you show me?
I did.




format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
And it was abrogated fast when Gabriel informed Muhammad pbuh that the verse he was revealed was from satan.
Where is your proof? How do you know this?


The points you made about Apostasy and the Subjugation , I'm delighted by it but I have heard that Apostasy in Islam is a big misunderstood subject.







format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
how reliable are your definitions? What is Messiah to you?

Well that is kind of true, They're not reliable, Well Messiah means the savior of a people (Jewish)

Well I will ask the same, How reliable is your definition of Messiah then?





format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Lovely verse - which prophet and messenger of God didn't say this? Find me one.

But he clearly says "No one"





format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
And if I show you where the very word MUHAMMAD is mention in the Songs of Solomon 5:16 - will you then claim it is a "coincidence" in the Old Testament? suggesting that God makes mistakes?

Did you know that in Hebrew Aramaic there is no word for coincidence? Because it's a false concept - so the very word cannot be used in conversation - thus, every seeming coincidence is a proof that God wills. Hence, when Muhammad is mentioned by name in the songs of Solomon 5:16 - clear as day, complete with the Hebrew suffix of respect for a venerated personality - "IM" - at the enf of the name Muhammad - to make it Muhammad-im - we can clearly see the context is proving a person and not a city. If it was Jerusalem he was singing about, the word used would be Jerusal-IM. NOT MUHAMMD-IM.
Well, this is not even a prophecy it is a story of two people describing each other. Mohamed by name? Ok so if you say Allahu Akbar I can say this You are saying God Is a person cause in Hebrew Akbar means a mouse.



Also it says that Deuteronomy 18:18 mentions him , It does not. let's carefully examine the verses in question, and see if we can find any clues to the context in question. Let's start with verse 14. The New International Version uses 'brothers' usually in place of the King James Version 'brethren'. Words in ( ) parenthesis are mine. From Deut. 18:
14: "The nations you (i.e. the Israelites) will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you (the Israelites), the Lord your (the Israelites) God has not permitted you (the Israelites) to do so.
15: The Lord your God will raise up for you (the Israelites) a prophet like me from among your (the Israelites) own "brothers". You (the Israelites) must listen to him.
16: For this is what you (the Israelites) asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you (the Israelites) said, "Let us (the Israelites) not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we (the Israelites) will die."
17: The Lord said to me "What they (the Israelites) say is good.
18: I will raise up for them (the Israelites) a prophet like you from among their (the Israelites) brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them (the Israelites) everything I command him.
19: If anyone (the Israelites) does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him (an Israelite) to account.
It's very clear here that the context for 'brethren' is from amongst the fellow Israelites. Not an Edomite, or other non-Israelite, who were not given the law, not part of the group Moses was addressing. Moses meant that the prophet would come out of the 12 Israelite tribes.
The three requirements I find are:
1) this future prophet is to speak the words that God puts in his mouth. (Not really)
2) this future prophet would speak with God face to face (He of course did not)
3) this future prophet would perform miracles, signs, and wonders. (He did not)

Which is why I don't see him as a true prophet.


Thank you.God Bless.
Reply

Scimitar
11-28-2016, 07:43 PM
Peace to you Ethan (Irish name, correct? - my pseudonym as editor for B2B publications was Ethan Doyle lol, ED get it ? :D)

I will respond to your post when I get some free time God willing.

You've raised questions which require lengthy explanations. For the moment though, I must balance a few things in my personal life.

God bless,

Scimi

EDIT: in the meantime, feel free to watch the Muhammad in the Bible series I have embedded in my first post here, it's totally in tune with the topic we are discussing.

God bless,

Scimi
Reply

Al Sultan
11-28-2016, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
cause in Hebrew Akbar means a mouse.


[/B]

What? What do you mean a mouse..you meant person right ?
Reply

ethanhartly
11-29-2016, 10:11 AM
Hello again.




format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Peace to you Ethan (Irish name, correct?
Yes it is, Although I am American brother :D




format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
For the moment though, I must balance a few things in my personal life.
Hope you peacefully balance these things in your life, I'll be waiting here , Take your time and reply back when you have time :)

God bless,Thank you.
Reply

talibilm
11-29-2016, 01:01 PM
About Prophet Muhammad :saws: this thread is more than enough as it was with an expert of Christianity

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ot-be-Mohammed


There is nothing called satanic verses in the noble Quran and what were revealed (so claimed as satanic are still there , no need for abrogation ) and they were correct verses which describe how the pagans made shirk by comparing All mighty with useless idols and actually when Prophet :saws: read those verses they all fell down (even kafirs) in prostration. Only Tabari had some near claims which Yasir qadhi took it but fails to note Tabari the largest tafsir mentions that its contents are not 100 % guaranteed but Tabari wrote what ever he heard and he is the highest collector of Israliyat (isreali stories) in his tafsir which we should be careful and cant take for granted. if there is any proof of abrogations kindly give the proof of Sahih hadith. Bro @Scimitar

Did Prophet Muhammad Exist ?

I am sorry am not attacking you since you bring this claim from psychopath Jealoused zionists who started even to defame their own OT saying exodus never happened ( even rejecting discovery of Pharaoh's body in 1898 in swamps of Egypt after which it was named by the Pharaoh's name and even Chariot wheels etc and other proofs from the red sea which were found recently by Divers and research on the body of Pharaoh by french Maurice Bucaile ) with hijacking comments from Veterans of Israel supporting them JUST TO DISPROVE THE NOBLE QURAN even at the cost of making their OT a lie :hmm:. And also claim Mecca did not exist before 2000 years but Psalms talks about Mecca or Bacca as mentioned in the Noble Quran. Bart Erhman the 30 year experienced hardcore evangelist says that NT was very poor in documentation and Jesus was never mentioned in any history from outside (except Christian histories) for nearly 90 years (or 300 years I forgot) where it was refered just as 'Christ in passing'' But Noble Quran and its Prophet has the best documentation with 10,000's of eye witnesses and artifacts of Prophet :saws: remaining in various places of Arabia and its documentation is even from CONTEMPORARY Indian Hindu king who saw the Miracle of moon splitting into two (an outside source) and other outside sources as war on Byzantine, Persian,Cyprus etc etc and From Jews who accepted islam.

Post # 2 on Moon split from hindu , Dutch sources

https://www.islamicboard.com/seerah/...mad-peace.html

To be Frank the NT could not even compared or stand near our WEAK HADITH when we see the rigid conditions & criteria regarding the CHAIN OF NARRATORS for any hadith deemed to be atleast a hadith (weak or strong is another question ?) Nothing can be called as a hadith if there are no eye witnesses and direct witnesses that heard from the blessed lips of our Prophet :saws: the last Messenger of Allah.


Last but not the Least, its only Prophet Muhammad :saws: Prophesied clearly by Name by all most Religions of the world even including hinduism , the link

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...uhammad-(pbuh)
Reply

Al Sultan
11-29-2016, 01:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by talibilm
this thread is more than enough as it was with an expert of Christianity
Wait he's actually an expert of Christianity?..
Reply

talibilm
11-29-2016, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Sultan
Wait he's actually an expert of Christianity?..
She Arbed was a devout expert had answer for every topic of her Religion Christianity that amazed other Christian apologetics as well . and so was to us difficult to reply her but TRUTH PREVAILS , Allah swt helped us to reply her and shut her mouth up.
Reply

Scimitar
11-29-2016, 04:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
Hello again.
Peace be upon you, Ethan :)

format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
Yes it is, Although I am American brother :D
My apologies, brother. :embarrass

format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
Hope you peacefully balance these things in your life, I'll be waiting here , Take your time and reply back when you have time :)

God bless,Thank you.
Thank you for your patience Ethan,

However, after five years and some months, I have requested my account be disabled. So unfortunately I will not be able to participate in this thread anymore.

Balancing life has become a BIG priority now for me, and time is a luxury I cannot afford. SubhanAllah.

Take care brother Ethan, though brief, our meeting was pleasant here.

May our paths cross again, God willing

God bless,

Scimi
Reply

talibilm
11-29-2016, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by talibilm
About Prophet Muhammad :saws: this thread is more than enough as it was with an expert of Christianity

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ot-be-Mohammed


There is nothing called satanic verses in the noble Quran and what were revealed (so claimed as satanic are still there , no need for abrogation ) and they were correct verses which describe how the pagans made shirk by comparing All mighty with useless idols and actually when Prophet :saws: read those verses they all fell down (even kafirs) in prostration. Only Tabari had some near claims which Yasir qadhi took it but fails to note Tabari the largest tafsir mentions that its contents are not 100 % guaranteed but Tabari wrote what ever he heard and he is the highest collector of Israliyat (isreali stories) in his tafsir which we should be careful and cant take for granted. if there is any proof of abrogations kindly give the proof of Sahih hadith. Bro @Scimitar

Did Prophet Muhammad Exist ?

I am sorry am not attacking you since you bring this claim from psychopath Jealoused zionists who started even to defame their own OT saying exodus never happened ( even rejecting discovery of Pharaoh's body in 1898 in swamps of Egypt after which it was named by the Pharaoh's name and even Chariot wheels etc and other proofs from the red sea which were found recently by Divers and research on the body of Pharaoh by french Maurice Bucaile ) with hijacking comments from Veterans of Israel supporting them JUST TO DISPROVE THE NOBLE QURAN even at the cost of making their OT a lie :hmm:. And also claim Mecca did not exist before 2000 years but Psalms talks about Mecca or Bacca as mentioned in the Noble Quran. Bart Erhman the 30 year experienced hardcore evangelist says that NT was very poor in documentation and Jesus was never mentioned in any history from outside (except Christian histories) for nearly 90 years (or 300 years I forgot) where it was refered just as 'Christ in passing'' But Noble Quran and its Prophet has the best documentation with 10,000's of eye witnesses and artifacts of Prophet :saws: remaining in various places of Arabia and its documentation is even from CONTEMPORARY Indian Hindu king who saw the Miracle of moon splitting into two (an outside source) and other outside sources as war on Byzantine, Persian,Cyprus etc etc and From Jews who accepted islam.

Post # 2 on Moon split from hindu , Dutch sources

https://www.islamicboard.com/seerah/...mad-peace.html

To be Frank the NT could not even compared or stand near our WEAK HADITH when we see the rigid conditions & criteria regarding the CHAIN OF NARRATORS for any hadith deemed to be atleast a hadith (weak or strong is another question ?) Nothing can be called as a hadith if there are no eye witnesses and direct witnesses that heard from the blessed lips of our Prophet :saws: the last Messenger of Allah.


Last but not the Least, its only Prophet Muhammad :saws: Prophesied clearly by Name by all most Religions of the world even including hinduism , the link

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...uhammad-(pbuh)

My claims in above quote of mine about Imam Tabari's work will be proved from Imam Tabari's own words below from the preface (or comments ) from the tafsir al Tabari al Tabari .

'' "Let him who examines this book of mine know that I have relied, as regards everything I mention therein which I stipulate to be described by me, solely upon what has been transmitted to me by way of reports which I cite therein and traditions which I ascribe to their narrators, to the exclusion of what may be apprehended by rational argument or deduced by the human mind, except in very few cases. This is because knowledge of the reports of men of the past and of contemporaneous views of men of the present do not reach the one who has not witnessed them nor lived in their times except through the accounts of reporters and the transmission of transmitters, to the exclusion of rational deduction and mental inference. Hence, if I mention in this book a report about some men of the past, which the reader or listener finds objectionable or worthy of censure because he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein, let him know that this is not to be attributed to us but to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us ''

Note : So as Imam Tabari from Iran had written everything he heard about any verse that makes his tafsir 'the largest one '' AND FROM HERE YASIR QADHI brings more allegations on the noble

character of Prophet :saws: saying he could also make mistakes like any human, which is most ridiculous and shows his ignorance when he misses to see so many verses and hadiths on the most noble & honorable character of prophet :saws: . Yes we accept Prophet :saws: is a human and he can commit some errors to show he was a Human too ( Not God) WHICH EVERY ONE OF Those errors ( 2-4 OF THEM ) ALLAH HAS ALREADY ELUCIDATES IN THE NOBLE QURAN AS A LESSON TO US but never On his Noble Character where Allah the all knowing said

Noble Quran 33:21'' Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.''

All other allegations against the Noblest Character of Prophet including the satanic verses are lies which were spread by the hypocrites who were always there then and now. Since Aysha , the Scholar among women told if Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) would have concealed any verse it would not be more the verse about Zaynab. Because Allah exposed all the errors of his prophet as a lesson to his followers, in the Noble Quran . So those stories of Tabari more than what has been confirmed in the Quran are nothing but reckless assumptions of some that were passed on to e Tabari (Iran) who liked to record everything what reached him he heard (as he has told his preface ) and Ibn Kathir also took Israliyat but not to the extent of Tabari..


@Scimitar
Bro scmi , we will miss you and your straightforward posts. its better not to disable your account .



Reply

talibilm
11-30-2016, 08:15 AM
@ethanhartly


Hope you had got cleared most of your doubts from those clear videos of Shayk Deedat and other posts here. But if you still have some other doubts do posts them individually . since lack of time and concentration are the problems in replying them
Reply

ethanhartly
12-01-2016, 10:38 AM
Hello brother.




format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
My apologies, brother.
No don't apologize, It's okay :)





format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
However, after five years and some months, I have requested my account be disabled. So unfortunately I will not be able to participate in this thread anymore
I understand, Life is more important than anything.

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Balancing life has become a BIG priority now for me, and time is a luxury I cannot afford.
Time is quick brother, Of course.





format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
God bless
God bless you too, Scimitar.
Reply

ethanhartly
12-01-2016, 11:06 AM
Yes I do.

Why is it so hard for the Bible to predict the coming of Mohamed? why did it say "The spirit of truth" some Christians debate that the spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit, But it said that it will predict the future too, Mohamed did this , The Holy Spirit did not, But some Christians want to continue to argue and I don't understand.


For example, Let's look at the Hindu scriptures, I know both of us (Christianity and Islam) disagree on Hinduism, But I found a verse in the Hindu Scriptures that actually says the word AHMAD or MOHAMED and it also says MUSLAMS.

I mean, That's just a straight forward prediction right? it didn't say "there will come a messenger" or something unspecific, It was specific, (Also I found answering islam.com replying to this saying he was not but answering Christianity refuted them)

Why didn't the bible just say "There will come a messenger in the Arabian deserts of Mecca (or Bacca) and his name will be Mohammed, And he will guide the Muslims to truth" Why didn't it say something straight forward like the example I just gave?

"
Reply

Good brother
12-01-2016, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ethanhartly
Why is it so hard for the Bible to predict the coming of Mohamed? why did it say "The spirit of truth" some Christians debate that the spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit, But it said that it will predict the future too, Mohamed did this , The Holy Spirit did not, But some Christians want to continue to argue and I don't understand.
For example, Let's look at the Hindu scriptures, I know both of us (Christianity and Islam) disagree on Hinduism, But I found a verse in the Hindu Scriptures that actually says the word AHMAD or MOHAMED and it also says MUSLAMS.

I mean, That's just a straight forward prediction right? it didn't say "there will come a messenger" or something unspecific, It was specific, (Also I found answering islam.com replying to this saying he was not but answering Christianity refuted them)

Why didn't the bible just say "There will come a messenger in the Arabian deserts of Mecca (or Bacca) and his name will be Mohammed, And he will guide the Muslims to truth" Why didn't it say something straight forward like the example I just gave?

"
Anyone knows the bible is not authentic word of God, it even doesn't claim to be.
https://comparativreligion.blogspot....criptures.html
Reply

Born_Believer
12-18-2016, 03:56 PM
When the name of Muhammad PBUH is mentioned in the Bible, it's kinda difficult to listen to priests saying otherwise.
Reply

Cherub786
12-18-2016, 05:24 PM
Why didn't the bible just say "There will come a messenger in the Arabian deserts of Mecca (or Bacca) and his name will be Mohammed, And he will guide the Muslims to truth" Why didn't it say something straight forward like the example I just gave?
Why didn't the Old Testament say "There will come the son of God named Jesus from Nazareth?"
Reply

Cherub786
12-18-2016, 05:26 PM
One of the very clear prophecies in the Hebrew Bible concerning the advent of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the following:
וְרָ֣אָה רֶ֗כֶב צֶ֚מֶד פָּֽרָשִׁ֔ים רֶ֥כֶב חֲמ֖וֹר רֶ֣כֶב גָּמָ֑ל וְהִקְשִׁ֥יב קֶ֖שֶׁב רַב־ קָֽשֶׁב
“And should he see chariotry of a pair of riders, one riding an ass, (and) one riding a camel” (Book of Isaiah; ch.21 v.7)
The rider of the ass (donkey) is a clear reference to the Messiah (Zechariah 9:9). It is said that the Messiah of Nazareth fulfilled this prophecy by riding into Jerusalem seated on a colt, the foal of a donkey, as mentioned in the Gospel of Mark (ch. 11).
The Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu ‘alayhi wasallam) also used to ride on a donkey, but he was most well known for riding on the camel, thus the “one riding a camel” aptly describes him. During the Hijrah (exodus), the Prophet (peace be upon him) famously rode into the town of Medina seated upon a camel. Similarly, during the conquest of Mecca, he rode humbly into the city that had persecuted and expelled him upon a camel.
What is quite interesting, however, is that learned Jewish rabbis have acknowledged the fact that this prophecy of Isaiah was fulfilled by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) specifically, and the Ishmaelites (Arabs) generally. The mid-8th century Jewish apocalyptic text the Nistarot or Secrets of Rabbi Shimon b. Yohai has been translated by John C. Reeves and can be read here. It is attributed to the great Jewish sage of the 2ndcentury, Rabbi Shimon ben Yohai. A passage in this Jewish apocalypse states:
R. Šim‘on answered and said: ‘From whence are they (understood as) our deliverance?’ He said to him: ‘Did not Isaiah the prophet speak thusly? “And should he see chariotry of a pair of riders, one riding an ass, (and) one riding a camel” (Isa 21:7).’ Why did he put the ‘rider of an ass’ before the ‘rider of a camel’? Should he not instead have said ‘rider of a camel, rider of an ass’? (No, the textual sequence means that) when the one who rides the camel (Ishmael or Muhammad) emerges, the kingdom ruled by the ‘one mounted upon an ass’ (Zech 9:9) has manifested (lit. ‘sprouted’) by his (i.e., Ishmael’s or Muhammad’s)agency. Another opinion: ‘rider of an ass’ (connotes) at the (same) time when he ‘rides upon an ass’ (Zech 9:9). Consequently they (Ishmael) are a deliverance for Israel like the deliverance (associated with) the ‘one mounted upon an ass’ (Zech 9:9).
Similarly it is stated in the Tefillat or Prayer of Rabbi Shimon b. Yohai (translated here):
I turned to Metatron and said to him, ‘Are the Ishmaelites a deliverance for Israel?’ He said to me, ‘Did not Isaiah the prophet speak thusly? “And should he see chariotry of a pair of riders, one riding an ass, (and) one riding a camel” (Isa 21:7).’ “Chariotry”—this (word) refers to the Achaemenid empire. “Pair”—this (word) refers to the Greek empire(s). “Riders”—this (word) refers to the Roman empire. “One riding an ass”—this (phrase) refers to the Messiah, as Scripture attests: “humble and mounted upon an ass” (Zech 9:9). “One riding a camel”—this (phrase) refers to the kingdom of Ishmael, during whose rule the Messianic kingdom will sprout. This is why (the phrase) “one riding an ass” precedes (the phrase) “one riding a camel” (in the verse from Isaiah). The “one riding a camel” will rejoice at the advent of the Messiah; nevertheless, the sages perish and the power of the riff-raff grows stronger.’
To summarize, the Jewish apocalypticist who composed this text in the mid-8th century, or if it is indeed originally attributed to the 2nd century Jewish sage Rashbi, believed that the prophecy of the rider on the ass refers to the promised Jewish Messiah and that the rider on the camel is a prophecy of our beloved master Muhammad (peace be upon him) and the emergence of the Ishmaelites (Arabs) after him.

However, one point which has caused difficulty for this apocalyptic Jewish view is that the rider of the ass preceeds the rider of the camel in the text of Isaiah chapter 21. For us Muslims this is no problem as we do believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah and preceded our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon them both) by some six centuries. However, the Jews failed to recognize their own Messiah and were thus puzzled as to why the rider of the camel (Prophet Muhammad) is preceded by the rider of the ass, i.e., the Messiah, whom they are still expecting.
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