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azc
12-25-2016, 03:18 AM
Have the women, in the name of freedom, become a toy to play with for the men in western society...?
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NewMan2016
12-25-2016, 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by azc
Have the women, in the name of freedom, become a toy to play with for the men in western society...?
100%
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drac16
12-25-2016, 06:21 AM
Definitely. Women's bodies are used to sell everything from video games to beer. I love to watch hockey, but unfortunately, even that is plagued with problems. During the commercials, a bunch of beer commercials come on and they often have women dancing. For young men, it's difficult to avoid lust and the beer companies try to capitalize on that. Just a few days ago, I was on Youtube and I saw an ad about "hot latin singles" or something like that; it had a woman in it and she was only wearing a bra. I wasn't watching anything even remotely related to dating or sex, but that ad popped up anyway.

Even when I go to Wal-Mart or a grocery store, at the checkout aisles, there are magazines with barely clothed women on them. It's hard to lower my gaze because I'm being attacked by those images all the time.
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azc
12-25-2016, 12:18 PM
If a woman is serving the food to her husband only and doesn't go out of her home then husband is fundamentalist and he is depriving the lady of the freedom... But if she is serving the food to passengers as air hostess, it is the freedom of woman...
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azc
12-25-2016, 12:23 PM
If the woman entertain none but her husband, she is backward but if she entertain to all spectators and players as a cheerleader in T20 cricket matches, she is a modern-age lady
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azc
12-25-2016, 12:28 PM
If a lady covers her body with niqab, she is backward but if a lady put off her clothes before the people, she is an advanced and progressive lady
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azc
12-25-2016, 12:34 PM
How they have changed the social scenario wherein a slu* is considered as the symbol of freedom of woman whereas a lady wearing hijab propagated as the symbol of backwardness. After all it's a men's world
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PowerfulMuslima
12-25-2016, 01:14 PM
I think many of us have, but its been by our own doing, and many of us don't even realize it. We can get out of this situation just like we got ourselves into it because as we go so does society. only when women figure this out will they have true liberation.
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anatolian
12-25-2016, 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by azc
After all it's a men's world
I am agree with you on this..And I also agree with the idea that "the symbol of woman" is used as a tool of commerce in many western and other colonised societies. However, I would like to ask that whether you are questioning the status of women in the Muslim societies? Women are regarded in many Muslim societies as second class citizents. They are not given the same rights as men have. What do you think about this?
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anatolian
12-25-2016, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by azc
If a woman is serving the food to her husband only and doesn't go out of her home then husband is fundamentalist and he is depriving the lady of the freedom...
Here as an example..A woman can serve food whomsoever she wants and she can go out of her home, she is not caged into her home.
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azc
12-25-2016, 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by anatolian
I am agree with you on this..And I also agree with the idea that "the symbol of woman" is used as a tool of commerce in many western and other colonised societies. However, I would like to ask that whether you are questioning the status of women in the Muslim societies? Women are regarded in many Muslim societies as second class citizents. They are not given the same rights as men have. What do you think about this?
Of Muslim society: it's a different matter though but agree that many Muslim men treat their wives not only as inferior to men but also as slaves. But this treatment is seen mainly in uneducated families. Moreover, a girl child is ,often, deprived of getting education lest she should go astray.
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azc
12-25-2016, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by anatolian
Here as an example..A woman can serve food whomsoever she wants and she can go out of her home, she is not caged into her home.
Let us see what the sisters say on it
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ardianto
12-25-2016, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Let us see what the sisters say on it
Look at the picture below.



These Indonesian Muslim women were cooking and serving food for flood victims in public kitchen. If they were caged into their home, not allowed to serving food to other than their husbands, how could they contribute in helping other people like this?.
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azc
12-25-2016, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Look at the picture below.These Indonesian Muslim women were cooking and serving food for flood victims in public kitchen. If they were caged into their home, not allowed to serving food to other than their husbands, how could they contribute in helping other people like this?.
do you compare this good work to the duty of air hostess...?
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ardianto
12-25-2016, 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by azc
do you compare this good work to the duty of air hostess...?
No, those women work voluntary, while air stewardess are getting paid.

But what's wrong if a woman serve food for public as her job?. In often buy food from female vendor, and I never think is haram if this female vendor serve food for me and other buyers.
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azc
12-25-2016, 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
No, those women work voluntary, while air stewardess are getting paid. But what's wrong if a woman serve food for public as her job?. In often buy food from female vendor, and I never think is haram if this female vendor serve food for me and other buyers.
As far as I know these jobs which you allow for a Muslim woman are not allowed in Islam. As a boradminded Muslim you can say that a Muslim woman can do any job wherein she has to interact with non-mahram but from Islamic point of view it's not allowed. Now the question arise if a Muslim girl can do the Job of airhostess or a waitress then what is wrong in earning the big money by entertaining the players and spectators in T20 cricket matches...? And what is wrong in doing commercials for money..? Will you define the demarcation between halal and haram now..?
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ardianto
12-25-2016, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by azc
As far as I know these jobs which you allow for a Muslim woman are not allowed in Islam. As a boradminded Muslim you can say that a Muslim woman can do any job wherein she has to interact with non-mahram but from Islamic point of view it's not allowed. Now the question arise if a Muslim girl can do the Job of airhostess or a waitress then what is wrong in earning the big money by entertaining the players and spectators in T20 cricket matches...? And what is wrong in doing commercials for money..? Will you define the demarcation between halal and haram now..?
Why you think if women allowed to work as waitress, then women allowed to work as cheerleaders too?. Waitress bring food to the visitor table in polite manner, while cheerleaders dance sexily in front of public. These two jobs are totally different.
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azc
12-25-2016, 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Why you think if women allowed to work as waitress, then women allowed to work as cheerleaders too?. Waitress bring food to the visitor table in polite manner, while cheerleaders dance sexily in front of public. These two jobs are totally different.
i don't consider polite or impolite way of selling their services for the money. Crux of the issue is interacting with non mahram. The nagnitutde of sin between the job of waitress and cheerleader is a different thing though. Do you have any dalil from Quran and hadith that a woman can do the job such as of waitress wherein interaction with non mahram is too obvious, is allowed . What is the demarcation of halal and haram job in your opinion, clarify it.
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czgibson
12-25-2016, 05:15 PM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by azc
Have the women, in the name of freedom, become a toy to play with for the men in western society...?
What a laughable generalisation. Try saying that to the women in my family and see what sort of response you get.

Peace
Reply

Scimitar
12-25-2016, 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Have the women, in the name of freedom, become a toy to play with for the men in western society...?
Have the men?

Goes both ways fella.

Scimi
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ardianto
12-25-2016, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by azc
i don't consider polite or impolite way of selling their services for the money. Crux of the issue is interacting with non mahram. The nagnitutde of sin between the job of waitress and cheerleader is a different thing though. Do you have any dalil from Quran and hadith that a woman can do the job such as of waitress wherein interaction with non mahram is too obvious, is allowed . What is the demarcation of halal and haram job in your opinion, clarify it.
The only conversation between me and waitress is only she ask what is my order, and I tell her what food that I want. Nothing more. And there is no prohibition for interaction like this in Islam. For me, halal job is what still in limit of modesty, and the haram is what has out of limit of modesty.
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azc
12-25-2016, 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,What a laughable generalisation. Try saying that to the women in my family and see what sort of response you get.Peace
since you are an atheist, i can understand your views... Peace!
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azc
12-25-2016, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
The only conversation between me and waitress is only she ask what is my order, and I tell her what food that I want. Nothing more. And there is no prohibition for interaction like this in Islam. For me, halal job is what still in limit of modesty, and the haram is what has out of limit of modesty.
will you show me dalil ......?
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Scimitar
12-25-2016, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by azc
since you are an atheist, i can understand your views... Peace!
NO, actually he does have a point.

Women in the west may be more promiscuous than those in the Middle East, but, the women of the west are way more independent and opinionated than our own in the middle east.

That, is a fact. Sad as it is. It is true. Not just for atheist women, but also of Muslim ones too.

Originally Posted by azc
since you are an atheist, i can understand your views... Peace!
Since I have Muslim sisters, who are contributors to the community where I live, I also understand his views. Atheist has nothing to do with it.

Scimi
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azc
12-25-2016, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Have the men?Goes both ways fella.Scimi
great....! It's informative. Thanks
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ardianto
12-25-2016, 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by azc
will you show me dalil ......?
My daleel is ..... there is no daleel that prohibit modest interaction between men and women. If interaction between men and women is totally prohibited, then you cannot discuss with sisters in this forum.

Now let me ask you. Why you have prejudice toward people in the West, which you generalizing them in accordance of your opinion?. Why don't you think that there are good people too among them?.
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Scimitar
12-25-2016, 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by azc
great....! It's informative. Thanks
Do you know what role reversal is?

In a paper prepared for the workshop “Gender, Equality and Intimacy: (Un)comfortable Bedfellows?” at the Institute of Education today – Cambridge scholar Monica Wirz explores how couples, whose gender roles have been reversed, deal with work-life balance, equality, intimacy and their sense of identity.

READ MORE HERE

This is one of the issues one must factor in when attempting to figure out the status of women in western society.

Scimi
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Scimitar
12-25-2016, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by azc
will you show me dalil ......?
Umar RA, when he was khaliph, appointed a woman to be in charge of the Market/Bazaar.

Daleel?

Learn your Muslim history, it's all there bro.

Scimi
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azc
12-25-2016, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
My daleel is ..... there is no daleel that prohibit modest interaction between men and women. If interaction between men and women is totally prohibited, then you cannot discuss with sisters in this forum. Now let me ask you. Why you have prejudice toward people in the West, which you generalizing them in accordance of your opinion?. Why don't you think that there are good people too among them?.
No brother. This is not the proper way of discussion. Plz don't enlarge it if you can't prove your point of view with daleel from Quran and hadith. Fallacious reasoning can't be accepted in a healthy discussion... Now you say why I talk to sisters on forum. So you've completely fallen down ...? You are comparing this discussion on forum wherein we are not watching each other, even not listening each other. Only basis of reading the posts of each other you are trying to justify the interaction of non mahram men with young girls (waitress) wearing (mini) skirt..? Astaghfirullah !!. For your knowledge I tell you, we have several female muhaddisin ra in Islamic history. They would teach the male students behind the curtain. When this teaching is allowed then why this discussion will not be allowed..?....
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azc
12-25-2016, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Umar RA, when he was khaliph, appointed a woman to be in charge of the Market/Bazaar.Daleel?Learn your Muslim history, it's all there bro.Scimi
O man ! What you are saying.? Use common sense. You are talking about that Umar RA who even didn't allow women to pray salah in masjid, he appointed a woman market supervisor...? We are discussing about the skirt/mini skirt wearing young girls offering their services to non mahram customers...?
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Scimitar
12-25-2016, 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by azc
O man ! What you are saying.? Use common sense. You are talking about that Umar RA who even didn't allow women to pray salah in masjid, he appointed a woman market supervisor...? We are discussing about the skirt/mini skirt wearing young girls offering their services to non mahram customers...?
Bro,

Common sense is what I am posting, meanwhile you are talking bias, and hard too. I'll explain. Be patient.

Women are allowed to trade in Islam, they can own businesses. In fact, there were women who were trading in the market places of Medina - under the jurisdiction of Umar RA - and Al Shifa RA - the woman - as appointed governor of the marketplace.

You're splitting issues with the whole "mini skirt" comment and this shows how fundamentally incapable you are when it comes to applied contexts.

This thread poses the question of western women in society. Muslim women exist in the west - or are you willfully ignorant of this fact?

Muslim women who live and work in the west will do as they please, and if that means wearing hijaab - and observing mahram, then so be it.

The idea of mahram is a safeguard for personal relations between man and woman who are not of the same family - it does not apply to a public place where one is going to market in search of milk.

Your ability to define mahram is absolutely ridiculous. You seem to think that no man can speak to a woman without her chaperone, period - when in fact this rule only applies to a personal involvement between the sexes.

Sheesh, and you got the nerve to speak to me about common sense? I call it uncommon sense, since you have no idea what it really is.

I'm still waiting for you to prove that satan taught angels lol in that other thread... you come across like a know it all - who when pushed - becomes quite irate due to his inability to actually answer the question.

For the record, here is the post I have been waiting hours for you to respond to: https://www.islamicboard.com/general...ml#post2942061 Or will you dodge this as well?

Scimi
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Scimitar
12-25-2016, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
The only conversation between me and waitress is only she ask what is my order, and I tell her what food that I want. Nothing more. And there is no prohibition for interaction like this in Islam. For me, halal job is what still in limit of modesty, and the haram is what has out of limit of modesty.
Yes, and this does not fall within the rules of mahram, this is something azc doesn't realize.

Scimi
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azc
12-25-2016, 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Yes, and this does not fall within the rules of mahram, this is something azc doesn't realize. Scimi
https://islamqa.info/en/106815http:/...aruliftaa/8495
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Scimitar
12-25-2016, 08:57 PM
Your link is dead, page does not exist.

Scimi

EDIT: during the battle of Uhud, was it permissible for the women to treat injured men who were non mahram?

Answer this bro :)

You will find this is a nuanced subject matter and you are looking at it rather linearly. Your lateral ability is non existent, and you confine yourself to copy paste posts when you fall short.

That's not the way to discuss something.

What you are doing is passing the buck.

Scimi
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Search
12-25-2016, 09:19 PM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

What a laughable generalisation. Try saying that to the women in my family and see what sort of response you get.

Peace
On a gut level, most women would have a reactive objection to this question. Because the idea of being "toys" is simply offensive as women. However, I think if we contextualized the discussion in terms of objectification and women stopped to think of the way that affects men globally perceive us due to this objectification in our societies, most of us would understand that we have indeed unwittingly turned into "toys." I think pornography plays a big element in this objectification. However, it is only one in the long list of things in society that have turned women into "toys."

I minored in communication and so for example when I was sitting in my communication class, I had never even heard of "snuff pornography" but when I learned the descriptive details in class, I was aghast. And the way advertisements set up women to be passive and sexual with many times phallic symbols or their legs open negates us as anything but sexual objects.

Also, most women don't want to live or base our value on men's perception, yet women are culturally taught to accept exactly men's perception as determination of our value in Western culture. For example, in Cosmopolitan, laughably a woman's magazine but hardly I'd term pro-women, women are taught to wonder whether they are doing enough to keep the interest of their man with bedroom tricks or how they can get their crush's attention with inane things like wearing a specific brand of lip gloss. And then men wonder why women turn into insipid and needy creatures in relationships - uh?

By the way, there's a common misconception that women, because they are women, are exempt somehow from perpetuating this objectification because it's supposed to be men's domain. Nuh-uh. Women are complicit in this objectification of fellow women because women's magazines are written by female authors who "sell" these types of stories and articles in the magazine geared towards women. And let's for one moment imagine you have a daughter: Would you want her to learn to measure her value by how much a male at any given time likes her? This insanity begins in her preteens, by the way, because there's makeup and provocative clothing style geared towards now that age group and magazines like Seventeen sell the same type of tripe of Cosmopolitan except geared towards a younger audience.

And not only that, if you look at the dating and sexual relationship section of a bookstore (as antiquated as an idea as that may seem in the Age of the Internet) or even Amazon, you'll see that women are again being educated on how to hook a man and keep him or ensnare him into marriage if he's not proposing as desired at a given time and place. And all these self-help books in dating and relationships are geared towards a female audience because they are the primary buyers of the book in the first place. And why? Because men feel free all the time to walk away from relationships because they've been taught that marriage is a sucker's game. And men are not introspective enough to usually perseverate on their failed relationships as women usually do, which means they also don't care about learning from their mistakes in relationships and not repeating them and don't care about marriage because they say, "Why buy a cow when you can get the milk for free?" Yes, apparently, men think so highly of women that they are now reduced to being "cows" in the dating and mating game.

When men are teens, they are encouraged to have sex as soon as possible and take the virginity of their respective girlfriends. But not even think of marrying them because of course these men are told by the media and culture that they are too young and have to learn to fully sow their wild oats before they even think of settling down. But when these girlfriends have lost their virginity to the men and are no longer virgins, then emerges the good-old "Madonna" and the "bad girl" (substitute for the w-word) standard.

For example, in the romantic comedy What's Your Number? the main character is desperately afraid that she's slept with so many men that she's never going to get married until she puts a stop to her sexual entanglements and seriously starts a romantic relationship with the next person. In the movie The Ugly Truth, the main protagonist has not slept with someone for almost an year and that's a barometer of how she's the "nice girl," the kind a man marries. And then in the movie Barefoot, a man finds a virgin with whom he falls in love because of her innocence and child-like curiosity. So, basically, the same culture that has taught a woman to measure her worth by a relationship, teaches her that she's now not good enough because the men she loved took her virginity and remaining innocence. If that's not the definition of being a "toy", then I don't know what is. Also, that thing called Oxytocin bonds women to a man when they have sex whereas men can have sex and immediately move on; in fact, neuroscience studies that I'd looked at years ago proved this and probably is still available on the Internet to peruse on this subject. However, in the absence of those specific studies which I don't want to take the time to find right now, I'm linking to the article, "Sex: Why it makes women fall in love - but just makes men want MORE." (Warning on the article: provocative images.)

Also, whenever there are real and breathing consequences of a relationship, women are the ones who left bearing the responsibility of carrying, birthing, and taking care of the children as single parents when men walk away from these "consequences." In fact, Valerie Polakow wrote an entire book Lives on the Edge: Single Mothers And Their Children In The Other America about the feminization of poverty due to the men not taking responsibility of these children.

By the way, I don't think women ever stopped desiring commitment and marriage despite what "The Cool Girl" trope that Hollywood likes to sell to men in movies (see article "Men: the Cool Girl doesn’t exist, so stop looking for her"). What this means is that women are shortchanged when they feel they can't be completely honest with men about wanting marriage, picket fences, and babies.

Please don't misunderstand as I also liked the point that brother anatolian brought up about Muslim societies as well as we cannot afford to imagine for a second that Muslim societies are free of their share of problematic aspects specific to women as well. However, I don't think we can afford to give an eyeroll either to how women are indeed treated like "toys" in Western society in the name of the hollow slogan "freedom." For example, when I think of or look at the word "freedom", I know as a woman what I'd want is to free of all things that would strive to put me down due to my womanhood and negate my personhood. And unfortunately, in the Western societies that we live, "freedom" is just an attractive catchphrase without any of the accompanying reality of being truly free because we're never free of media's influence, society's judgment, nor male judgment or or even our own imperative biological calculations.

Even when women are able to kick and haul ass, as the women in your family might do (which would be awesome in my view as I personally want and love for women to be strong), we're in the end being treated as "toys" and we frankly don't deserve to be so abominably abused in the name of freedom.
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Scimitar
12-25-2016, 09:20 PM
With relation to Muslim women rights to work:

It is permissible for a woman to go out of her house for work, but that is subject to certain conditions. If they are met, it is permissible for her to go out. They are:

- That she needs to work in order to acquire the money she needs.

- The work should be suited to the nature of woman, such as medicine, nursing, teaching, sewing, and so on. (personally I (Scimi) believe they make great engineers too, if Maryam al Astrolabiyah is to be cited as an example. In fact, I think these jobs such as sewing suit men as well - did the Prophet pbuh not repair his own garments?)

- The work should be in a place that is only for women, and there should be no mixing with non-mahram men.

- Whilst at work she should observe complete shar’i hijab.- Her work should not lead to her travelling without a mahram.

- Her going out to work should not involve committing any haraam action, such as being alone with the driver, or wearing perfume where non-mahrams can smell it.

- That should not lead to her neglecting things that are more essential for her, such as looking after her house, husband and children.

IslamQA - most likely the very same you tried to reference.

In the IslamQA site - I found this:

Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen said: The field in which a woman works should be only for women, such as if she works in teaching girls, whether in administration or technical support, or she works at home as a seamstress sewing clothes for women and so on. As for working in fields that are for men, this is not permissible for her because it requires her to mix with men, which is a great fitnah (source of temptation and trouble) and should be avoided. It should be noted that it is proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have not left behind me any fitnah that is more harmful to men than women; the fitnah of the Children of Israel had to do with women.” So the man should keep his family away from places of fitnah and its causes in all circumstances. End quote. Fataawa al-Mar’ah al-Muslimah (2/981)

What I find interesting is how he ignored the fact that in Medina, women were trading publicly in the market places and no one batted an eyelid.

Not to mention how women would also accompany men to the battles in order to be nurses - to ghair mahram.

Sometimes, the scholars lose sight of history and talk from a position of haughtiness. They are not infallible.

For the record, a Muslim woman serving a non mahram man at a cafe, his cappucino, is not "free mixing" - but rather, "serving a customer".

Scimi
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fschmidt
12-25-2016, 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by azc
since you are an atheist, i can understand your views... Peace!
Maybe you can understand them, but that doesn't make them right. Science backs up the Muslim view, not the modern Western view. And I say this as a non-Muslim who grew up atheist and studied science and history. The simple fact is that every rising culture in history had strict rules of modesty, and virtually every decaying culture in history lost its rules of modesty. The West is no exception and it had strict rules of modesty before the 1900s and is now in obvious decline. The most conclusive study on this subject is "Sex and Culture" by Oxford anthropologist Unwin in 1934 where he showed that there is 100% correlation between female premarital chastity and cultural development. You can find it here:

https://archive.org/details/b20442580

Obviously the means of preserving chastity is modest dress and proper restrictions on the mixing of the sexes. This is what Islam does, and what every civilized culture in history did. The West is no longer civilized, it is suffering from collective insanity and will soon die a natural death.
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Scimitar
12-25-2016, 09:46 PM
fschmidt, what a refershing post from a non Muslim.

I agree with you on the decline of empires. I was just reading Cormac O'Brien's book, The Fall of Empires. And though he doesn't particularly make a point of lewdness and promiscuity being a contributory factor to the fall of any empire, he does mention it as a by product of a failing one.

I find that very interesting.

Thanks for sharing with us, your POV. I appreciate it.

Scimi
Reply

Scimitar
12-25-2016, 10:03 PM
Who is "she" ?

Originally Posted by Scimitar
With relation to Muslim women rights to work:

It is permissible for a woman to go out of her house for work, but that is subject to certain conditions. If they are met, it is permissible for her to go out. They are:

- That she needs to work in order to acquire the money she needs.
She was wondering how she could afford the rent now her father was not working anymore, and realised she needed a job to support her family

Originally Posted by Scimitar
- The work should be suited to the nature of woman, such as medicine, nursing, teaching, sewing, and so on. (personally I (Scimi) believe they make great engineers too, if Maryam al Astrolabiyah is to be cited as an example. In fact, I think these jobs such as sewing suit men as well - did the Prophet pbuh not repair his own garments?)
She got a job part time working in a cafe, as a Barrista.

Originally Posted by Scimitar
- The work should be in a place that is only for women, and there should be no mixing with non-mahram men.
Her colleagues were all women, and the manager was a man but he sat in his office and didn't interfere with the daily grind. Pun intended.

Originally Posted by Scimitar
- Whilst at work she should observe complete shar’i hijab.- Her work should not lead to her travelling without a mahram.
She wore the uniform, of which, a hat with the Costa Coffee logo on it was worn, hiding her hair due to health and safety and hygiene reasons. She had no idea she was observing hijaab. Being an introvert, she would keep her conversation with customers limited to simply their order.

Originally Posted by Scimitar
- Her going out to work should not involve committing any haraam action, such as being alone with the driver, or wearing perfume where non-mahrams can smell it.
Being an introvert, she kept herself to herself on her journeys to and from work. She didn't like to attract attention so she would not wear scents to attract others with.

Originally Posted by Scimitar
- That should not lead to her neglecting things that are more essential for her, such as looking after her house, husband and children.
She was looking after her family...

...But was she a Muslim?

Curve Ball.

Scimi

EDIT:

Originally Posted by ardianto
The only conversation between me and waitress is only she ask what is my order, and I tell her what food that I want. Nothing more. And there is no prohibition for interaction like this in Islam. For me, halal job is what still in limit of modesty, and the haram is what has out of limit of modesty.
DING!!!!
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fromelsewhere
12-26-2016, 02:33 AM
Women should have the right to dress up and work whatever job they desire to do. Same goes for men. They shouldn't be pressured and even less so punished for dressing a certain way or doing a given job. Many women will naturally choose to dress 'decently' while others will dress scantily. Some will choose to be cheerleaders and others will choose to be waitresses or nurses or scientists, and so on.

I take issue when people, especially men, try to pressure women into doing certain things or dressing a certain way. I also take issue with men who view women as toys, and unfortunately, these men exist in every culture and society that I know of. It has a lot to do with some men being a bit too hormonal and thinking with their hormones rather than with their brains. :facepalm:
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happymuslim
12-26-2016, 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by anatolian
I am agree with you on this..And I also agree with the idea that "the symbol of woman" is used as a tool of commerce in many western and other colonised societies. However, I would like to ask that whether you are questioning the status of women in the Muslim societies? Women are regarded in many Muslim societies as second class citizents. They are not given the same rights as men have. What do you think about this?
Both sides to this are men controlling the liberation of women, we shouldn't be sex symbols, nor trapped, but men can't see that
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Search
12-26-2016, 06:20 AM
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)


Originally Posted by happymuslim
Both sides to this are men controlling the liberation of women, we shouldn't be sex symbols, nor trapped, but men can't see that
Bingo - exactly right.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)
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azc
12-26-2016, 08:31 AM
@Scimitar :
Umar RA, when he was khaliph, appointed a woman to be in charge of the Market/Bazaar.Daleel?Learn your Muslim history, it's all there bro.
According to Hamza Yusuf ''during the caliphate of Hazrat Umar :ra: slave women went around bare-breasted in public and he said it was a historical fact''........... In "Kitab al-Jami'" of al-Imam Ibn Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani al-Maliki (died 386 AH) said: "He (i.e. al-Imam Malik ibn Anas) strongly disapproved of the behaviour of the slave women of al-Madinah in going out uncovered above the lower garment. He said: "I have spoken to the sultan about it, but I have not received a reply." He said: "Beat slave women if they do that."".... Can it also be applied now..?
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azc
12-26-2016, 08:34 AM
you got the nerve to speak to me about common sense?
May Allah swt protect me from ego.
Women are allowed to trade in Islam
is it subjected to conditions or not? https://islamqa.info/en/106815
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Scimitar
12-26-2016, 04:45 PM
You do not know about contexts. Clearly. This proves it.

Originally Posted by azc
@Scimitar : According to Hamza Yusuf ''during the caliphate of Hazrat Umar :ra: slave women went around bare-breasted in public and he said it was a historical fact''........... In "Kitab al-Jami'" of al-Imam Ibn Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani al-Maliki (died 386 AH) said: "He (i.e. al-Imam Malik ibn Anas) strongly disapproved of the behaviour of the slave women of al-Madinah in going out uncovered above the lower garment. He said: "I have spoken to the sultan about it, but I have not received a reply." He said: "Beat slave women if they do that."".... Can it also be applied now..?
I think you are a few pennies short of a pound. First of all, the women who were naked from the waist up were Yathribi (medinites) who were native to Yathrib (medina) and not from the migrants of makkah.

Secondly, this was a situation where a norm in that society (medinite/yahtribi) was infringing on the laws of modesty within Islam.

Third, this was clearly a situation that was resolved as there are no women who walk around in Arabia half naked in public.

Fourth - this is not a situation where the haraam became halal or vice versa - it was haraam for women to be half naked so it was stopped - IT WAS NOT HARAAM FOR A WOMAN TO TRADE IN THE MARKET PLACE.

You need to work a LOT harder to make a point... for the record, you do not have a point.


And... I'm still waiting for you to answer me in that other thread where you made the erroneous claim that Shaytaan taught the Angels.

Scimi
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azc
12-26-2016, 06:22 PM
@Scimitar :
And... I'm still waiting for you to answer me in that other thread where you made the erroneous claim that Shaytaan taught the Angels
[b] Out of at least 8 tafasir and some other books I found this stuff related to your Q as herein: Firoz ul lughat ( most authentic Urdu dictionary.. Shaytan:''muallimul malaika''...In Tafsir Durre Mansur -- imam ibn jarir ra and imam saeed b musayyib ra (both were students of Hz Abu Huraira :RA: said,'' Iblis was the leader of angles of sky of the world''. Hz Ibn Abbas :RA: said, '' Iblis was respectable among angels, moreover, he was the king of the sky of the world (obviously he was the king of all angels belonged to the sky of the world) and he had kingship of the earth.'' -- In Tafsir ibn kathir: ibn abbas :RA: said,'' shaytan belonged to one of the clan of angels, called jinn that was made of fire. His name was haris and he was the treasurer of the heaven.'' further said,''He was the commander in chief of the army of the angels, sent to kill the jinn of earth who were involved in killing (each other).... (in tafsir of surah al baqrah ayat #34)... I'm still on the job
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azc
12-26-2016, 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
You do not know about contexts. Clearly. This proves it.I think you are a few pennies short of a pound. First of all, the women who were naked from the waist up were Yathribi (medinites) who were native to Yathrib (medina) and not from the migrants of makkah.Secondly, this was a situation where a norm in that society (medinite/yahtribi) was infringing on the laws of modesty within Islam.Third, this was clearly a situation that was resolved as there are no women who walk around in Arabia half naked in public.Fourth - this is not a situation where the haraam became halal or vice versa - it was haraam for women to be half naked so it was stopped - IT WAS NOT HARAAM FOR A WOMAN TO TRADE IN THE MARKET PLACE.You need to work a LOT harder to make a point... for the record, you do not have a point. And... I'm still waiting for you to answer me in that other thread where you made the erroneous claim that Shaytaan taught the Angels.Scimi
no, brother. You failed to reply my post. Sorry ! Control yourself and instead of hitting me, be calm and think for moment what you are doing. See my Q again: Can this incident be taken as dalil...? If not then why you are taking the dalil from rare incident of woman supervisor...? ...Thanks and regards my brother in Islam
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azc
12-26-2016, 06:59 PM
@Scimitar : where is the reply of post #44...? Don't forget to see the link... Your comments are eagerly awaited my brother. Peace!
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anatolian
12-26-2016, 08:48 PM
The most dangerous people on the earth are the oppressed ones, who are accepting the oppression..
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Scimitar
12-28-2016, 01:43 AM
Originally Posted by azc
@Scimitar : [b] Out of at least 8 tafasir and some other books I found this stuff related to your Q as herein: Firoz ul lughat ( most authentic Urdu dictionary.. Shaytan:''muallimul malaika''...In Tafsir Durre Mansur -- imam ibn jarir ra and imam saeed b musayyib ra (both were students of Hz Abu Huraira :RA: said,'' Iblis was the leader of angles of sky of the world''. Hz Ibn Abbas :RA: said, '' Iblis was respectable among angels, moreover, he was the king of the sky of the world (obviously he was the king of all angels belonged to the sky of the world) and he had kingship of the earth.'' -- In Tafsir ibn kathir: ibn abbas :RA: said,'' shaytan belonged to one of the clan of angels, called jinn that was made of fire. His name was haris and he was the treasurer of the heaven.'' further said,''He was the commander in chief of the army of the angels, sent to kill the jinn of earth who were involved in killing (each other).... (in tafsir of surah al baqrah ayat #34)... I'm still on the job
who did Abu Hurairah hear it from? lol it doesn't go back to the prophet pbuh.

Bro, many books have attributed hadeeth to Abu Hurairah which are not exactly sound.

you really should do your homework instead of rant off on stuff you've read without checking it for problematic issues like this one.

Scimi
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azc
12-28-2016, 11:08 AM
@Scimitar : Once again you failed to prove your point of view. Next time try hard.
who did Abu Hurairah hear it from? lol it doesn't go back to the prophet pbuh.
Are you absent-minded or have comprehension problem.? Where did I attribute the mentioned statement to him? Bro,Open your eyes and read again and take care further. Moreover, it shows that you are lacking in knowledge of science of hadith and tafsir.We've several types of ahadith from different aspects such as: Hadith (1) Hadith Marfu3, (2) Hadith Mowquf, (3) Hadith Muqtu3. And tafsir of surah al baqrah, ayat #34 in tafsir Durre Mansur of Allama Jalauddin Siyuti ra and Tasir Ibn Kathir of Iman Ibn Kathir ra is corroborated by Hadith Mowquf and Hadith Maqtu3 as it's generally found in books of tafsir, you are unaware thereof.
Bro, many books have attributed hadeeth to Abu Hurairah which are not exactly sound
It shows your ignorance of ilm ar rijal.
you really should do your homework instead of rant off on stuff you've read without checking it for problematic issues like this one.
It shows that you follow your whims. You want to change Islam in accordance of your whims. You quoted the incident of a woman market in-charge. Do you know the source..? Perhaps yo don't have accessibility to the book. This is why you didn't mention the name of the book O.k. I tell the name of the book. It is Al Isaba of hafiz Ibn Hajar ra.I'm sure you don't know that the riwayat has no chain of narrators at all. Brother,sit with good scholars instead of trusting Mr Google only. Peace !!!
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azc
12-28-2016, 11:15 AM
@Scimitar : Brother, why you are running away from accepting the fatwa of islamqa mentioned in post #44.
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Born_Believer
12-28-2016, 12:25 PM
Speaking to and living/studying/working alongside western women I have to say and it saddens my heart to say this but western women are the most deprived, oppressed, depressed and ignorant people in all society. Now this is NOT ALL western women but the vast majority. They believe it is oppressive to cover their legs and arms and hair and to be known for their intellect and strength of character yet they feel that walking around 75% naked is "liberation". What's most remarkable is the majority of these fashion designers and advertising/marketing executives, who tell women how to dress, how to do their hair, how to do their make up and how to behave are...yes you guess it folks, men!

I have never come across a more oppressed people than western women. As Steve Biko once said,"The most potent weapon in the hand of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed." That perfectly encapsulates the plight of the majority of western women.

However, in the UK at least, 2/3 of all converts to Islam are women so there seems to be an awakening, even if it is limited. More and more women are starting to see that they are more than the sum of their body parts. This terrifies the western power structure because one day, Inshallah, the largest vote bank in history will wake up and realise they can change society for the better.
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Scimitar
12-28-2016, 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by azc
@Scimitar: Once again you failed to prove your point of view. Next time try hard.Are you absent-minded or have comprehension problem.? Where did I attribute the mentioned statement to him?
That's what goes over your head.

That the hadeeth is not attributed to Muhammad pbuh and thus, not worth the paper its printed on.

Shame on you. You're a salafi aren't you?

Scimi
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azc
12-28-2016, 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
That's what goes over your head.That the hadeeth is not attributed to Muhammad pbuh and thus, not worth the paper its printed on.Shame on you. You're a salafi aren't you?Scimi
You are again proven wrong.Do you reject hadith mowquf and hadith maqtu3..? Then you are a hadith rejector. Not only this but also you are rejecting the authenticity of famous tafasir. Shame on you !
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Scimitar
12-28-2016, 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by azc
You are again proven wrong.Do you reject hadith mowquf and hadith maqtu3..? Then you are a hadith rejector. Not only this you are rejecting the authenticity of famous tafasir. Shame on you !
I do not place much importance of what is not attirbuted to the Prophet pbuh.

Why do you?

Are you like a saint hunter?

All men are fallible... you will follow their word over the word of the prophet pbuh.

I prefer to learn history from the many avenues of approach which help to flesh in the anthropology of the period in question, tafsir included, but not limited to just tafsir.... I highly doubt you know what I just wrote to mean.... something tells me you are kinda ignorant in that sense.

See bro. No matter how you try to cut it - that hadeeth is not worth the paper its printed on because it is not attributed to the Prophet pbuh....


...Next, I'm expecting you to cite some Israeli hadeeth to cement your bias.

Scimi
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Scimitar
12-28-2016, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by azc
May Allah swt protect me from ego. is it subjected to conditions or not? https://islamqa.info/en/106815
Are you dense?

I posted this before you did, with a clear explanation of context.

Which you ignored.

Originally Posted by Scimitar
With relation to Muslim women rights to work:

It is permissible for a woman to go out of her house for work, but that is subject to certain conditions. If they are met, it is permissible for her to go out. They are:

- That she needs to work in order to acquire the money she needs.

- The work should be suited to the nature of woman, such as medicine, nursing, teaching, sewing, and so on. (personally I (Scimi) believe they make great engineers too, if Maryam al Astrolabiyah is to be cited as an example. In fact, I think these jobs such as sewing suit men as well - did the Prophet pbuh not repair his own garments?)

- The work should be in a place that is only for women, and there should be no mixing with non-mahram men.

- Whilst at work she should observe complete shar’i hijab.- Her work should not lead to her travelling without a mahram.

- Her going out to work should not involve committing any haraam action, such as being alone with the driver, or wearing perfume where non-mahrams can smell it.

- That should not lead to her neglecting things that are more essential for her, such as looking after her house, husband and children.

IslamQA - most likely the very same you tried to reference.

In the IslamQA site - I found this:

Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen said: The field in which a woman works should be only for women, such as if she works in teaching girls, whether in administration or technical support, or she works at home as a seamstress sewing clothes for women and so on. As for working in fields that are for men, this is not permissible for her because it requires her to mix with men, which is a great fitnah (source of temptation and trouble) and should be avoided. It should be noted that it is proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have not left behind me any fitnah that is more harmful to men than women; the fitnah of the Children of Israel had to do with women.” So the man should keep his family away from places of fitnah and its causes in all circumstances. End quote. Fataawa al-Mar’ah al-Muslimah (2/981)

What I find interesting is how he ignored the fact that in Medina, women were trading publicly in the market places and no one batted an eyelid.

Not to mention how women would also accompany men to the battles in order to be nurses - to ghair mahram.

Sometimes, the scholars lose sight of history and talk from a position of haughtiness. They are not infallible.

For the record, a Muslim woman serving a non mahram man at a cafe, his cappucino, is not "free mixing" - but rather, "serving a customer".

Scimi
You must have ignored the majority of what I wrote in your willful ignorance.

Sheesh.

Grow up, and stop being such a nincompoop.

Scimi
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azc
12-28-2016, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
I do not place much importance of what is not attirbuted to the Prophet pbuh.Why do you? Are you like a saint hunter?All men are fallible... you will follow their word over the word of the prophet pbuh.I prefer to learn history from the many avenues of approach which help to flesh in the anthropology of the period in question, tafsir included, but not limited to just tafsir.... I highly doubt you know what I just wrote to mean.... something tells me you are kinda ignorant in that sense.See bro. No matter how you try to cut it - that hadeeth is not worth the paper its printed on because it is not attributed to the Prophet pbuh.......Next, I'm expecting you to cite some Israeli hadeeth to cement your bias.Scimi
What a stupid logic ! When I quote a narration which doesn't go back to prophet s.a.w you reject it but on other side you quote a similar narration (of woman market in charge) which also doesn't go to back prophet s.a.w then it's acceptable to you. Is it not self contradictory..?
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azc
12-28-2016, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Are you dense?I posted this before you did, with a clear explanation of context.Which you ignored.You must have ignored the majority of what I wrote in your willful ignorance.Sheesh.Grow up, and stop being such a nincompoop.Scimi
read it carefully: woman can do work but it's subjected to certain conditions. My discussion with brother ardianto was on this issue whether or not a girl can do the job of waitress... I said no as she has to serve non mahram. I know that brother ardianto being a good Muslim didn't gaze at her but what about other customers..? And she can't be allowed to wear niqab or hijab on duty... and you without understanding the issue jumped upon conclusion. What you or I think has no importance, important is what Islam says. A Muslim girl can do other jobs which doesn't offer interaction with non matram provided that conditions permit her to do the job
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Jk123
12-29-2016, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by azc
Have the women, in the name of freedom, become a toy to play with for the men in western society...?
It seems that way. Women are portrayed negatively in western media
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Akeyi
01-02-2017, 01:47 PM
I WAS GONNA WRITE IT IS SO NICE THAT EVERYONE WROTE SAME THING

BECAUSE IT IS NICE BECAUSE OUR PROPHET SAV SAID THAT
One Believer is a Mirror to Anoth
er



BUT GUY @anatolian STARTED SAYING WHAT HE LEARNED FROM KEMALIST SCHULE AND WANTED TO DEFEND WHAT ATATURK DID HE FORCED WOMEN TO WEAR WHAT ANIMALS WEAR

IT IS SO GOOD THAT ANOTALIAN ALONE WE ARE TOGETHER AS MUSLIMS GOOD WORK



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azc
01-02-2017, 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by Akeyi
I WAS GONNA WRITE IT IS SO NICE THAT EVERYONE WROTE SAME THINGBECAUSE IT IS NICE BECAUSE OUR PROPHET SAV SAID THATOne Believer is a Mirror to Another

BUT GUY @anatolian STARTED SAYING WHAT HE LEARNED FROM KEMALIST SCHULE AND WANTED TO DEFEND WHAT ATATURK DID HE FORCED WOMEN TO WEAR WHAT ANIMALS WEAR IT IS SO GOOD THAT ANOTALIAN ALONE WE ARE TOGETHER AS MUSLIMS GOOD WORK
will you quote his post...?
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Akeyi
01-02-2017, 02:48 PM
OF COURSE MY FRIEND IT IS MY DUTY OF ALL TIMES

OF COURSE MY FRIEND IT IS MY DUTY

Originally Posted by anatolian
I am agree with you on this..And I also agree with the idea that "the symbol of woman" is used as a tool of commerce in many western and other colonised societies. However, I would like to ask that whether you are questioning the status of women in the Muslim societies? Women are regarded in many Muslim societies as second class citizents. They are not given the same rights as men have. What do you think about this?
Originally Posted by anatolian
Here as an example..A woman can serve food whomsoever she wants and she can go out of her home, she is not caged into her home.
Originally Posted by azc
will you quote his post...?
AS YOU SEE I QUOTED NOW THE IMPORTANT PART

THE PART I TELL MY THOUGHTS

First i am from erhabene staat LİKE YOU CAN SEE FROM MY SIGNATURE

BEcause of this i would like to give an example from my country.

WOMEN CAUSED SO MANY TRAGIC EVENTS IN OTTOMAN EMPIRE BECAUSE OF THIS THEY WEREN'T IN THE SOCIAL LIFE SO MUCH
BUT OF COURSE SULTANS OF OTTOMAN EMPIRE GAVE SO STRONG ORDERS

FOR EXAMPLE FORBID DRINKING COFFE FORBID SMOKING FORBID MEETING IN SOME CAFE.
EVERYTHING FOR THE STRENTGH OF ISLAMIC STATE

In islam to protect women from capitalism they are not forced to work. If there is unemployment in the world it is because of women. For example my dad didn't have a job. It was not nice . Then my friend told me it is because of working women.

BUT OUR SUBJECT IS NOT THAT

OUR SUBJECT WHAT ANOTOLIAN SAID

FOR EXAMPLE

THERE ARE BEAUTFUL DOGS IN THE HAUS .

I SAY RED DOG IS VERY UGLY. THEN EVERYONE THINKS THAT OTHER DOGS ARE CUTE FOR ME.

LIKE ANY OF US THERE IS INFIDELISM AND ISLAM.
IF I DONT LIKE ISLAM THEN WHERE IS MY PLACE I AM ASKING YOU MY FRIENDSSSSS

ANOTOLIANT WROTE THAT WOMEN DOESN'T HAVE SAME RIGHTS MAN HAVE. WHICH IS NICE.

IT IS TOO HARD FOR A WOMEN TO WORK. HE CAN STAY HOME RELAX AND DO OTHER THINGS. IF OUR COUNTRY NEEDS A WIFES TO FIGHT HE CAN DECLARE JIHAD. BUT THAT IS ANOTHER _SUBJECT.
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azc
01-02-2017, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Akeyi
OF COURSE MY FRIEND IT IS MY DUTY OF ALL TIMESOF COURSE MY FRIEND IT IS MY DUTYAS YOU SEE I QUOTED NOW THE IMPORTANT PART THE PART I TELL MY THOUGHTS First i am from erhabene staat LİKE YOU CAN SEE FROM MY SIGNATUREBEcause of this i would like to give an example from my country.WOMEN CAUSED SO MANY TRAGIC EVENTS IN OTTOMAN EMPIRE BECAUSE OF THIS THEY WEREN'T IN THE SOCIAL LIFE SO MUCHBUT OF COURSE SULTANS OF OTTOMAN EMPIRE GAVE SO STRONG ORDERSFOR EXAMPLE FORBID DRINKING COFFE FORBID SMOKING FORBID MEETING IN SOME CAFE.EVERYTHING FOR THE STRENTGH OF ISLAMIC STATEIn islam to protect women from capitalism they are not forced to work. If there is unemployment in the world it is because of women. For example my dad didn't have a job. It was not nice . Then my friend told me it is because of working women. BUT OUR SUBJECT IS NOT THATOUR SUBJECT WHAT ANOTOLIAN SAIDFOR EXAMPLETHERE ARE BEAUTFUL DOGS IN THE HAUS .I SAY RED DOG IS VERY UGLY. THEN EVERYONE THINKS THAT OTHER DOGS ARE CUTE FOR ME.LIKE ANY OF US THERE IS INFIDELISM AND ISLAM. IF I DONT LIKE ISLAM THEN WHERE IS MY PLACE I AM ASKING YOU MY FRIENDSSSSSANOTOLIANT WROTE THAT WOMEN DOESN'T HAVE SAME RIGHTS MAN HAVE. WHICH IS NICE.IT IS TOO HARD FOR A WOMEN TO WORK. HE CAN STAY HOME RELAX AND DO OTHER THINGS. IF OUR COUNTRY NEEDS A WIFES TO FIGHT HE CAN DECLARE JIHAD. BUT THAT IS ANOTHER _SUBJECT.
Bottomline is that a woman, wearing niqab or hijab, can do the job if all the conditions which allow her, are complied with including the aura of non interaction with non mahram or her being all alone without any support from her family or relatives pertaining to her livelihood etc. But if a woman wants to do the job because she is educated then Islam doesn't allow her. On personal level what we think about this issue is a different matter. Here we've to see what our deen commands us. We should refraining from compromising because of appeasement of non Muslims lest we should be called a fundamentalist.
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Scimitar
01-02-2017, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by azc
know that brother ardianto being a good Muslim didn't gaze at her but what about other customers..? And she can't be allowed to wear niqab or hijab on duty...
You really are a little dense in my opinion. In the west, where I live, if men wanted to gaze at women - they don't have to go to cafe's lol. There are way more easier ways to be perverse in the west - but not in cafe's, sheesh.

You would think a library is a place for prostitution, judging by the way you polarize every little thing.

You really need to "think" before you go all "fatwa-monkey" again.

Scimi
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azc
01-02-2017, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
You really are a little dense in my opinion. In the west, where I live, if men wanted to gaze at women - they don't have to go to cafe's lol. There are way more easier ways to be perverse in the west - but not in cafe's, sheesh.You would think a library is a place for prostitution, judging by the way you polarize every little thing.You really need to "think" before you go all "fatwa-monkey" again.Scimi
You really are a little dense in my opinion
Bro, same to you.
In the west, where I live, if men wanted to gaze at women - they don't have to go to cafe's lol. There are way more easier ways to be perverse in the west - but not in cafe's, sheesh.
Islam is not confined to east or west. I assert that a lady can't go out without wearing hijab or niqab. Islam doesn't allow woman to do the job but in exceptional cases. Islam can't be changed because of your whims or your western culture.
You would think a library is a place for prostitution, judging by the way you polarize every little thing.
certainly not; but ''the game'' can be played anywhere if the couple get an opportunity to have fun........? “For women, there is no share in going out except if it is necessary.” (Tabrani)
You really need to "think" before you go all "fatwa-monkey" again
“A women is an object of concealment, thus when she emerges, Satan uses her a means of spreading evil.”(Mishkat, Tirmizi)
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Akeyi
01-02-2017, 05:04 PM
You guys can ask me stuff too when in ramadan fest or in opferfest streets of ottoman empire would be full of woman
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adam.ramsey
01-05-2017, 01:57 PM
Have the women, in the name of freedom, become a toy to play with for the men in western society...?
Much of Western Society has become Luciferian Secular Humanist. They may play lip service to the Bible at times, depending on what community or area you are in, but the guiding philosophy or Ideology followed by Academia, the Mainstream Media, and Western Governments is Luciferian Secular Humanism which believes they have a better way than God.

Feminism degrades women. Feminism doesn't believe in gender. Woman is a word that denotes gender, so it is not right or polite to use that word in describing many western females.

Female - A genderless object that gets passed around from boyfriend to boyfriend. In terms of the Bible, she would be a Harlot and unrepentant.

Woman - A joy to be around. She betters quality of life. She is Proverbs 31.

Christian and Righteous Godly Societies value virgin brides. God is First and Last. He was man's first love as creator. He will be man's last love. Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess. His love is Fatherly having nothing to do with sex.
Are we not children of God? A man would like to be like his father in heaven? He would like to be First and Last in his wife's life. It is a matter of love and honor. Honor is a concept that is lost on many people today, but it is in the Bible. A Judge is The Honorable or Your Honor. God is a Judge. He is honorable and does not lie.

Satanists seem to believe this is to be The Age of Lilith. Lilith was known as a rebellious woman who birthed demons and abominations. A Madonna, Brittany Spears, or Katy Perry may be a Lilith like character to a degree. Their music is "toxic," and they plant poisonous seed in young people. They seem to hate men, and wish to rule over them.
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azc
01-05-2017, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by adam.ramsey
Much of Western Society has become Luciferian Secular Humanist. They may play lip service to the Bible at times, depending on what community or area you are in, but the guiding philosophy or Ideology followed by Academia, the Mainstream Media, and Western Governments is Luciferian Secular Humanism which believes they have a better way than God. Feminism degrades women. Feminism doesn't believe in gender. Woman is a word that denotes gender, so it is not right or polite to use that word in describing many western females. Female - A genderless object that gets passed around from boyfriend to boyfriend. In terms of the Bible, she would be a Harlot and unrepentant.Woman - A joy to be around. She betters quality of life. She is Proverbs 31. Christian and Righteous Godly Societies value virgin brides. God is First and Last. He was man's first love as creator. He will be man's last love. Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess. His love is Fatherly having nothing to do with sex. Are we not children of God? A man would like to be like his father in heaven? He would like to be First and Last in his wife's life. It is a matter of love and honor. Honor is a concept that is lost on many people today, but it is in the Bible. A Judge is The Honorable or Your Honor. God is a Judge. He is honorable and does not lie. Satanists seem to believe this is to be The Age of Lilith. Lilith was known as a rebellious woman who birthed demons and abominations. A Madonna, Brittany Spears, or Katy Perry may be a Lilith like character to a degree. Their music is "toxic," and they plant poisonous seed in young people. They seem to hate men, and wish to rule over them.
welcome to forum. Good post. Thanks
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