Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

[سيف الله]

Salaam

With Trump in power, Netanyahu has a free hand.


Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

Land grab law 'allows theft, stalls peace process'

Law that retroactively legalises settler homes on private Palestinian land widely condemned as legitimising theft.

Israel's land grab law that retroactively legalises thousands of settlement homes in the occupied West Bank legitimises theft, violates international law and ends the prospect of a two-state solution, according to politicians, legal experts and human rights groups.

The so-called "Regulation Bill" instantly drew wide condemnation as it was voted in by members of the Knesset late on Monday with a 60 to 52 majority.

The law applies to about 4,000 settlement homes in the West Bank for which settlers could prove ignorance that they had built on privately owned Palestinian land and had received encouragement from the Israeli state to do so.

Three Israeli NGOs - Peace Now, Yesh Din and the Association for Civil Rights in Israel - and numerous Palestinians said they intend to petition the Supreme Court to cancel the law.

UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres said on Tuesday in a statement: "This bill is in contravention of international law and will have far reaching legal consequences for Israel."

The EU's foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini said in a statement that the bloc "condemns" the law and urges against its implementation "to avoid measures that further raise tensions and endanger the prospects for a peaceful solution to the conflict".

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said the law was an aggression against the Palestinian people.

"That bill is contrary to international law," Abbas said following a meeting with French President Francois Hollande in Paris. "This is an aggression against our people that we will be opposing in international organisations.

"What we want is peace ... but what Israel does is to work toward one state based on apartheid."

Hollande called on Israel to go back on the law, saying it would "pave the way for an annexation, de-facto, of the occupied territories, which would be contrary to the two-state solution".

Hours before Abbas' meeting with Hollande, Saeb Erekat, secretary general of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation, told the Associated Press news agency that the law puts "the last nail in the coffin of the two-state solution".

Calling the move "theft", Erekat said the ruling showed "the Israeli government trying to legalise looting Palestinian land".

The Arab League also accused Israel of "stealing the land" from Palestinians.

"The law in question is only a cover for stealing the land and appropriating the property of Palestinians," said the head of the Cairo-based organisation, Ahmed Aboul Gheit.

Palestinian owners will be compensated financially or with other land, but cannot negotiate their terms.

The law is a continuation of "Israeli policies aimed at eliminating any possibility of a two-state solution and the establishment of an independent Palestinian state", Aboul Gheit said.

Jordan, one of the few Arab states to have diplomatic ties with Israel, also denounced what it called "a provocative law likely to kill any hope of a two-state solution".

According to the UN envoy for the Middle East peace process, Nickolay Mladenov, the law crosses a "very thick red line" towards annexation of the occupied West Bank, and sets a "very dangerous precedent".

Speaking to the AFP news agency, he said: "This is the first time the Israeli Knesset legislates in the occupied Palestinian lands and particularly on property issues."

He also raised the possibility the law could open Israel up to potential prosecution at the International Criminal Court, a threat Israel's own top government lawyer, attorney general Avichai Mandelblit, has also warned of.

Mladenov called for strong international condemnation of the legislation but declined to criticise the US after President Donald Trump's administration refused to comment on it.

Trump is more sympathetic to Israel's settlement policies than previous US presidents; the Israeli government has approved plans to build thousands of new homes on occupied territory since the far-right leader settled into the White House.

"I think that is a very preliminary statement," Mladenov said. "Obviously they do need to consult, this is a new administration that has just come into office and they should be given the time and the space to find their policies."

White House spokesman Sean Spicer said the US was likely to discuss the law with Netanyahu when the Israeli prime minister visits on February 15, but did not comment further in a press briefing on Tuesday.

David Harris, head of AJC, the global Jewish advocacy organisation, said that "Israel's High Court can and should reverse this misguided legislation" ahead of Netanyahu's meeting with Trump in February.

That was also the message from Defence Minister Avigdor Lieberman, who said last week: "The chance that it will be struck down by the Supreme Court is 100 percent."

'Against all international laws'

International law considers all settlements to be illegal, but Israel distinguishes between those it sanctions and those it does not, dubbed outposts.

A Palestinian Cabinet minister also called on the international community for support.

"Nobody can legalise the theft of the Palestinian lands. Building settlements is a crime, building settlements is against all international laws," said Palestinian Tourism and Antiquities Minister Rula Maayaa. "I think it is time now for the international community to act concretely to stop the Israelis from these crimes."

Nabil Abu Rdeneh, a spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, called the law "unacceptable" and urged the international community to act immediately.

"This is an escalation that would only lead to more instability and chaos," Rdeneh said.

Palestinians want the occupied West Bank, east Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip - territories Israel occupied in the 1967 Middle East war - for their future state.

The international community views settlements as illegal and an obstacle to reaching peace.

Shortly before leaving office, US President Barack Obama allowed the UN Security Council to pass a resolution declaring settlements illegal.

Tobias Ellwood, Britain's Middle East minister, also condemned the land grab bill, saying it "is of great concern that the bill paves the way for significant growth in settlements deep in the West Bank".

Yuval Shany, an international law professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, said the law violates basic rights, interferes with property rights and is discriminatory because it regulates only the transfer of land from Palestinians to Jews.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/israel-land-grab-law-ends-hope-state-solution-170207143602924.html

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Junon;

The Jews are wrong, they go against God, and this is from their own scriptures..........


Ezekiel 47
21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.

Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

[Karl]

I don't know why the Palestinian leaders are such sycophants to those Marxists and their "international community" and United Nations commie paper shufflers and "international law", all controlled by the Zionist elite. Do the Palestinian leaders just want a soft life apparently doing nothing? I suppose they are in a hopeless situation because they are poor and weak and the Jews are rich and powerful.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another comment piece.

Trump shifts stance on two-state solution to Israel-Palestine conflict

President suggests wider accord but urges pause on settlement expansion

Donald Trump retreated from two decades of US policymaking in the Middle East on Wednesday when he said the two-state solution was not the only way to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Flanked by Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, Mr Trump said he was looking at a solution that would-“take in many countries and would cover a much larger territory”.

“I am looking at two-states and one-state [solutions], and I like the one that both parties like,” Mr Trump said, before the two leaders held their first official meeting.-

Mr Trump also urged Israel to-“hold back” on building in Jewish settlements in the West Bank for “a little bit”. He told the Palestinians to-“get rid of some of the hate they are taught from a young age” in pursuit of a peace deal.-

“The US will encourage a peace and really a great peace deal,” Mr Trump said in his first substantive remarks on the conflict since taking office last month.-“We will be working on it really, really diligently. But it is the parties themselves that must negotiate such an agreement.”

Mr Trump said the US was looking at a-“new concept” that would involve other countries, echoing remarks by a White House official on Tuesday evening that suggested the US was abandoning the two-state paradigm.-

“It is something that is very different, hasn’t been discussed before,” Mr Trump said. “It is a much bigger deal, much more important deal in that it takes in many countries and would cover a much larger territory.”

Mr Trump’s remarks are likely to fuel confusion in the region as to Washington’s approach to one of the world’s most intractable conflicts. The US president has named-Jared Kushner, his property developer son-in-law, as a Middle East envoy with a brief to work towards a peace deal.-

Officials in the Trump administration and rightwing politicians in Israel have spoken of addressing the conflict via a regional agreement that would broaden traditional bilateral talks and bring in other Arab states, an approach viewed with suspicion by many Palestinians.-

In the wake of Mr Trump’s election victory, Israeli MPs have floated ideas including the annexation of large Jewish settlement blocs in the West Bank and the creation of a Palestinian mini-state in Gaza and parts of Egypt’s Sinai peninsula.

Mr Erekat scoffed at what he called “silly ideas” when asked about the latter proposal, saying: “Sinai is an Egyptian territory.”-

He added that the alternative to a two-state solution would be “one secular state where Jews, Muslims and Christians will be equal”, and called on the world to stand by its principle of a Palestinian state on pre-1967 lines existing alongside Israel.-

However, Naftali Bennett, head of Israel’s far-right, pro-settler Jewish Home party, hailed Mr Trump’s remarks as “new ideas” and the start of “a new era”.

“No need for 3rd Palestinian state beyond Jordan & Gaza.” Mr Bennett, who is education secretary, said on Twitter. “Big day for Israelis & reasonable Arabs.”

https://www.ft.com/content/8943c782-f34e-11e6-8758-6876151821a6

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[Born_Believer]

What is absolutely astonishing is the inability of the Arab nations to fight a single country and yet they are more than happy to bomb each other. Ridiculous.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update. Good summary of why the two state solution failed.

Despite Trump’s Statements, Abbas and Palestinians Get Another Reprieve

Palestinian security official: Washington establishment understands that Palestinian Authority keeps the peace

The Palestinian leadership did not conceal its concern over leaked reports that the Americans had renounced their support for establishing a Palestinian state. In fact, that wasn’t the unequivocal message Donald Trump’s statements conveyed at the press conference on Wedensday. Every side could find signs in them to strengthen his position.

Even if the United States does renounce its backing for a Palestinian state, what will actually change? The U.S. administrations before Trump spoke about some two-state solution and did nothing to carry it out. That is, they did nothing to stop Israel from thwarting it. But their declarations and promises enabled the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah to lie to itself and to its people that this was the solution the great power supported.

This ongoing lie – backed by massive American financial assistance – was one of the tools with which the leadership of the PLO, Fatah and Palestinian Authority marketed the rationale for its existence. This lie helped it to justify keeping its agreements with Israel, including the security coordination. No wonder the U.S. contributes considerable sums of money to the Palestinian security forces.

The different music now coming from the White House raises the question of whether the changes in the United States could weaken the Palestinian leadership’s status even further in the Palestinians’ eyes, and whether, therefore, its existence is in danger.

Trump came and Trump will go, while the Palestinians remain with their demand to be freed of Israeli rule, which for them means military occupation, colonialism, apartheid. For the Palestinian people here and the diaspora these are not slogans but everyday reality.

Twenty-four years ago this nation had a popular leadership that gave Israel and the Jews a generous gift – the two-state solution. That’s how the Palestinians interpreted the Oslo agreement. But Israel rejected the gift.

The Palestinian leadership could understand even before Yitzhak Rabin’s murder that Israel was bluffing. That it may be saying “two states” but building enclaves. The PLO stuck to the negotiation policy in the hope that the West would pressure Israel, that there would be positive political changes in Israel and that the Arab states would act. But there’s another reason, too. The Palestinian leadership converted the bureaucracy of a national liberation organization to a ruling bureaucracy, complete with self-preservation and clinging on to one’s standing.

PA President Mahmoud Abbas and his colleagues’ fear of a military deterioration that would harm their people (like the second intifada) is real and justified. But it is mixed with his and the ruling circle’s personal interests.

At the same time the illusion of limited sovereignty within the Palestinian enclaves took shape. The PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza provide basic services to their public and enable public activity that weren’t allowed under the direct Israeli occupation.

With all the criticism against the PA for corruption, dictatorial tactics, inefficiency, social gaps, etc., it still services the public’s immediate fundamental needs.

Trump’s presidency is not a sufficient reason to break up the PA and plunge Palestinian society into chaos and turmoil. The Palestinian leadership has received another time out.

A Palestinian security official told Palestinian media on Wednesday about the CIA chief’s meeting with Abbas. The message behind the leak was clear. “Don’t worry, the Palestinian Authority’s existence is important to the United States. The Washington institutions understand that maintaining the enclave regime promises a fragile kind of security stability.”

They are probably telling the new president the same thing. The main thing undermining this precarious stability is not Trump, but an escalation in Israel’s oppression and settlement policy.

http://normanfinkelstein.com/2017/02/16/sounds-right/

[Simple_Person]

What many of us fail to grasps are the way people talk and take action.

We live in times, that you MUST STOP listening to what they are saying and promising. Look at the actions. When i for example say to person X, i will not hit you, psychologically person X will not approach me violently or brace himself for impact and i can catch him off guard. Rasullah(saws) has said years of confusion will come, if it is these times or beginning of those times or they still have to come Allah knows best. However, the biggest fight now a days is on psychological front.

Looking at Trump in his election days and what he said and what he is doing now, all is in support of Israel. If it is in support of Israel, then one can imagine that there will be NO 2 state solution whatsoever. As this is NOT what the Zionist state wants. It is the same psychological game. The Arabs are very naive indeed. Turkey is using the Arabs, US is using the Arabs, Israel is using the Arabs, UK is using the Arabs..and the Arabs don't see it. You could almost say Allah(swt) has made them blind for what is going on.

Another example, in US, those secret intelligence agencies say often very smart things. One of them is when somebody says "Is it true that x and y is this and that?". Their response is, "we cannot confirm it or deny it| . When somebody tells you that, this psychologically is messing with your brain. When you get YES, your plan is based on YES, if it is NO, your plan is based on NO. However, having no answer is hard to plan ahead or brace yourself for something. They have given a answer, but also no answer.

However, it all seems the beginning of the end. A train that has left and it is acceleration with each minute.

[Aryeh Jay]

Greetings and peace be with you Junon;

The Jews are wrong, they go against God, and this is from their own scriptures..........


Ezekiel 47
21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.

Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

Greetings Eric,

I think you mean to say that the Israelis are wrong or the Zionists are wrong. Most Jews I know want a free Palestinian State that is unmolested by their neighbor. The sooner the better. It sickens me that Christians support Israel as the only democracy in the region when that “democracy” has millions fenced up in a concentration camp and suspends deliveries of food and services at will.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Aryeh Jay; welcome to the forum, and thanks for your reply,

I think you mean to say that the Israelis are wrong or the Zionists are wrong.

My apologies.

Most Jews I know want a free Palestinian State that is unmolested by their neighbor. The sooner the better.

That would be good to see a free Palestinian State, but why has it not happened if most Jews also want it too?

It sickens me that Christians support Israel as the only democracy in the region when that “democracy” has millions fenced up in a concentration camp and suspends deliveries of food and services at will.

I went to Jerusalem in 2009, I saw the devastation of bulldozed Palestinian houses with the furniture still inside. I saw the poverty of the Palestinians. Justice can only be justice when it applies to all people equally.

In the spirit of praying to 'One God'

Eric

[Aryeh Jay]

Greetings and peace be with you Aryeh Jay; welcome to the forum, and thanks for your reply,



My apologies.



That would be good to see a free Palestinian State, but why has it not happened if most Jews also want it too?



I went to Jerusalem in 2009, I saw the devastation of bulldozed Palestinian houses with the furniture still inside. I saw the poverty of the Palestinians. Justice can only be justice when it applies to all people equally.

In the spirit of praying to 'One God'

Eric

Thank you for the warm welcome.

Well, I said most Jews I know but 51-59% of regular Israelis support a two state solution. It is the Right Wing Government of Israel that opposes it. And with President Trump in Netanyahu’s pocket, it may be a while before we see it.

I too have seen the suffering of the Palestinian people first hand. I have seen the destruction that a 500 pound bomb does to a civilian apartment building because a rocket “may” have been fired nearby.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

Please take a moment to read and sign this petition, they have around a 150,000 signatures so far. Stop Israeli bulldozers destroying Palestinian homes.

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/stop_the...3647947&c=GBP&

To the families of Pope Mountain, and leaders around the world:

As citizens from around the world, we want you to know that you are not alone. We stand with you and support your nonviolent sit-in to defend your homes, land and way of life. We call on all world leaders to demand that Prime Minister Netanyahu cancel all plans to destroy this community. We specifically call on the European Union and International Criminal Court to urgently make clear to the Israeli government that destroying this community crosses red lines and will have serious repercussions.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

[Mustafa16]

Greetings and peace be with you Aryeh Jay; welcome to the forum, and thanks for your reply,



My apologies.



That would be good to see a free Palestinian State, but why has it not happened if most Jews also want it too?



I went to Jerusalem in 2009, I saw the devastation of bulldozed Palestinian houses with the furniture still inside. I saw the poverty of the Palestinians. Justice can only be justice when it applies to all people equally.

In the spirit of praying to 'One God'

Eric

thank you @Eric H and @Aryeh Jay it touches my heart to see non muslims sympathizing with human rights abuses committed against muslims. unfortunately, the people in power in israel do not want a state, and the more they committ violations, the more palestinians react, and when they react, the israelis use it as an excuse to scare their citizens and grab even more land in the name of "security" i am eagerly awaiting the coming of the Mahdi and Isa (A.S.)

[ethnhunt]

Thank you for the warm welcome.

Well, I said most Jews I know but 51-59% of regular Israelis support a two state solution. It is the Right Wing Government of Israel that opposes it. And with President Trump in Netanyahu’s pocket, it may be a while before we see it.

I too have seen the suffering of the Palestinian people first hand. I have seen the destruction that a 500 pound bomb does to a civilian apartment building because a rocket “may” have been fired nearby.

I am new here. Wasn't going to comment, but could not resist.

Perhaps you are being too hasty with your assessment of Israeli Right Wing Government disposition towards 2-state solution.

It is a fact that current Israeli Government is not 'in love' with an idea of Palestinian State next to Israel, but it is also a fact that that very Right Wing Israeli Government will ' live' with Palestinian State next to Israel. Israelis do not want it, but they will acquiesce to it.

Israel has demonstrated its willingness to proceed with creation of Palestinian State. Several offers have been made over the past 20 years. Some were great offers and some less so. All offers were rejected by PLO and its successor PA. Why?

Anyway, it is all too late now in my view.

[keiv]

I am new here. Wasn't going to comment, but could not resist.

Perhaps you are being too hasty with your assessment of Israeli Right Wing Government disposition towards 2-state solution.

It is a fact that current Israeli Government is not 'in love' with an idea of Palestinian State next to Israel, but it is also a fact that that very Right Wing Israeli Government will ' live' with Palestinian State next to Israel. Israelis do not want it, but they will acquiesce to it.

Israel has demonstrated its willingness to proceed with creation of Palestinian State. Several offers have been made over the past 20 years. Some were great offers and some less so. All offers were rejected by PLO and its successor PA. Why?

Anyway, it is all too late now in my view.

Stealing land and then creating "great offers", on your terms, to the people you stole it from is criminal. This is coming from the same people who have literally wiped villages, towns and cities off the map after comitting genocide on the people that lived there.

Regardless if there is a possibility for a 2 state solution, israel will not last

[Scimitar]

Anyway, it is all too late now in my view.

Why do you think it is too late now? Welcome to the forum btw, loving the M.I reference hehe.

Scimi

[Aryeh Jay]

I am new here. Wasn't going to comment, but could not resist.

Perhaps you are being too hasty with your assessment of Israeli Right Wing Government disposition towards 2-state solution.

It is a fact that current Israeli Government is not 'in love' with an idea of Palestinian State next to Israel, but it is also a fact that that very Right Wing Israeli Government will ' live' with Palestinian State next to Israel. Israelis do not want it, but they will acquiesce to it.

Israel has demonstrated its willingness to proceed with creation of Palestinian State. Several offers have been made over the past 20 years. Some were great offers and some less so. All offers were rejected by PLO and its successor PA. Why?

Anyway, it is all too late now in my view.

When I was Jewish and in Israel, I could see with my own eyes how receptive and willing Israel was in creating a Palestinian State.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...r-gaza-bombing

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/w...eats.html?_r=0

[Simple_Person]

When I was Jewish and in Israel, I could see with my own eyes how receptive and willing Israel was in creating a Palestinian State.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...r-gaza-bombing

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/w...eats.html?_r=0

As you were Jewish before and you have been in the middle of those people who call themselves Jewish but have nothing to do with Judaism. What goes through their minds? Do they disregard everybody else who is not Jewish as some subhuman? And do they have no feelings regarding other human beings even if it is a child being killed? What is going on? Could you please share some of your observations regarding their mentality and their behavior.

[Aryeh Jay]

As you were Jewish before and you have been in the middle of those people who call themselves Jewish but have nothing to do with Judaism. What goes through their minds? Do they disregard everybody else who is not Jewish as some subhuman? And do they have no feelings regarding other human beings even if it is a child being killed? What is going on? Could you please share some of your observations regarding their mentality and their behavior.

I wish I knew Brother but I do not. I do know that the attitudes and relations between Muslims and Jews in the United States are much closer than in Palestine. I know that there some good Israelis that have a sense of justice but they are in the minority and face backlash from their neighbors if they appear to be Palestinian sympathizers.

[ethnhunt]

Why do you think it is too late now? Welcome to the forum btw, loving the M.I reference hehe.
Scimi

Thank you. Its nice to be here. Although, methinks that M.I. reference in my handle may prove to be prophetic, as I see that there is a LOT OF opposition to my FIRST post. It may in fact be a Mission Impossible! We shall see...

Well, - to adress your point...

I am not totally sure that 2 state solution is possible considering the political climate at the moment. I am also not sure at all if a future Palestine can exist without a good will from Israel. I am definetely sure that Palestinian Arabs do not want a 2 state solution. It is selve-evident.

For 2-state solution to happen, the Arabs must give the Jews what the Jews really want and that might include Jerusalem along with a few existing populated areas on the West Bank and no return of refugees. In theory, a far reaching compromise is good for both parties; - the Arabs of Palestine get political independence and Israeli economic support with a free trading zone perhaps.

The Israelis get security, ownership of their ancestral land and both get a friendly neighbor. Eventually the Israeli-Palestinian borders will disappear and the only place where the world will see an Israel-Palestine confrontation is at the Olympic Games or a soccer stadium. Borders are irrelevant when there is mutual respect; Canada-US comes to mind here. This will take a long time...or may never happen.

On the other hand, there is Jordan, - an existing Palestinian country, why not have a confederation? Divide up the West Bank between Israel and Jordan. Jordan absorbs the Arab West Bank population. Reparations are paid to the victims and to those who lost property and we are done. Most Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank hold Jordanian passports already.

But...none of the above is even remotely possible now. It used to be possible, but not any longer. Arabs refused the offer made in 2000 and they also refused the offer made in 2008 and 2010 and 2013. They were offered 95.6% of what they asked for and still they said 'NO'. THose offers will not come again. It is self-evident that PA leadewrship wants Palestine instead of Isarel, not next to Israel, - so it is a 'no go' from Isareli prespective.

Look, - I am not an Isareli nor am I a Jew. I do not have an agenda in this, but we should not blaim ONLY Isarel for the problems that Palestinian Arabs have today.

[ethnhunt]

Stealing land and then creating "great offers", on your terms, to the people you stole it from is criminal. This is coming from the same people who have literally wiped villages, towns and cities off the map after comitting genocide on the people that lived there.

Regardless if there is a possibility for a 2 state solution, israel will not last

Why do you say that Israelis steal land? Are you implying that Isarel has no right to be around? Historically the Jews are the indiginiouse people of that area.

Perhaps you should know that Palestine is a creation of Roman Empire. There were never a country called Palestine and there were never a people called Palestinians. These terms are very new; they took hold in the past 100 years only. Golda Maer held a Palestinian Passport in 1930s.

Anyway, Romans conquered Judea back more then 2000 years ago, destroyed the Jewish Temple and attempted to exile the Jews. In order to separate the Jews from the Jewish Land the Romans re-named Israel ‘Palestina’. This was a common practice back then, - change the name of the land and you will de-facto change the people.

Modern day Palestinians are Arabs of Muslim faith. Their ancestors came to the land that became known as Palestine back 1300 years ago, when Islam broke out of Arabia and violently ceased the land that today is known as Israel. Crusaders tried to take back the land from the Muslims, sometimes successfully but most often not.

‘Palestine’ changed hands over the past 2000 years a few times, - most recently the Turks ruled over it for about 400 years until the British took control as a result of the 1^st World War. Finally in 1948 the Jews were restored to the land by the order of UN and the rest is, as they say, - history.

So, - what we have here is the Arabs and the Jews with claims to the Land. Both claims are valid. The Jews have a better case, in my opinion, as they have been there much longer. Notice, that the Christians also can raise a claim to the land and that may also be valid, but they never did because there are many Christian countries out there and the Christians really only want a control of Christian religions places, which they now have.

Please look at the published data on population density in Israel. For example, - Jerusalem has always had a majority Jewish population.

Perhaps you should re-evaluate your views.

[AbdurRahman.]

Why do you say that Israelis steal land? Are you implying that Isarel has no right to be around? Historically the Jews are the indiginiouse people of that area.

Perhaps you should know that Palestine is a creation of Roman Empire. There were never a country called Palestine and there were never a people called Palestinians. These terms are very new; they took hold in the past 100 years only. Golda Maer held a Palestinian Passport in 1930s.

Anyway, Romans conquered Judea back more then 2000 years ago, destroyed the Jewish Temple and attempted to exile the Jews. In order to separate the Jews from the Jewish Land the Romans re-named Israel ‘Palestina’. This was a common practice back then, - change the name of the land and you will de-facto change the people.

Modern day Palestinians are Arabs of Muslim faith. Their ancestors came to the land that became known as Palestine back 1300 years ago, when Islam broke out of Arabia and violently ceased the land that today is known as Israel. Crusaders tried to take back the land from the Muslims, sometimes successfully but most often not.

‘Palestine’ changed hands over the past 2000 years a few times, - most recently the Turks ruled over it for about 400 years until the British took control as a result of the 1^st World War. Finally in 1948 the Jews were restored to the land by the order of UN and the rest is, as they say, - history.

So, - what we have here is the Arabs and the Jews with claims to the Land. Both claims are valid. The Jews have a better case, in my opinion, as they have been there much longer. Notice, that the Christians also can raise a claim to the land and that may also be valid, but they never did because there are many Christian countries out there and the Christians really only want a control of Christian religions places, which they now have.

Please look at the published data on population density in Israel. For example, - Jerusalem has always had a majority Jewish population.

Perhaps you should re-evaluate your views.

the jews were never expelled from that area so even if they lived there thousands of years ago they have no right to just grab it of the new owners.

[Scimitar]

thank you for the response,

As a believer, I don't consider 2 state solutions possible either. Normally I would, but Jerusalem is holy for all three Abrahamic traditions and all three have end time prophecies surrounding Jerusalem. 2 state solutions seem like wishful hippy thinking considering those, and after all that's happened since way back when.

Scimi

[ethnhunt]

the jews were never expelled from that area so even if they lived there thousands of years ago they have no right to just grab it of the new owners.

Hmmm...The Jews were expelled from Judea by Persians and by Greeks and finally by Romans. THose are the facts of history. However, the Jewish life in Judea never stopped. There have always been Jewish villiages in the land where Isarel is today. THose are historical facts. Jerusalem has always had a majority of Jews at all times in recorded history. That data is available and is published, look it up.

The most recent wave of emigration into Palestine happpen in the late 1800's. Many Muslim Arabs migrated into the area at that time and also the Jews from Europe arrived just as well. By 1948 there was 1 million Arabs and 600,000 Jews living in British mandated Palestine.

Please understand, that the Jews are the original population of that land. The Arabs also have the right to say the same thing just to a lesser extent, since, the Jews pre-date the Arabs by a great number of centuries. Arabs are not the new owners. NOBODY owned that land in the context of modern world. The best you can say is that the Ottoman Turks ruled that land for 400 years and than the UK took from the Turks as a result of WW1.

In the context of modern world it is United Nations that made the dessision to create new country of israel and Palestine. Palestine never happen due to war waged by Muslim powers against Israel in 1948. Whose fault is that? Jordan ruled West Bank, where Palestine was supposed to be, from 1948 till 1968. Jordan NEVER allowed Palestine to come into existance and NO MUSLIM ARAB complained until Mr. Arafat arrived from Egypt in early 1960's. So, - how can you say that the Arabs are the "new owners"?

By the way, UN also created Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Soudi Arabia in about the same time as Israel was created. I understand that you may not like the facts, but the history is what it is.

[ethnhunt]

thank you for the response,

As a believer, I don't consider 2 state solutions possible either. Normally I would, but Jerusalem is holy for all three Abrahamic traditions and all three have end time prophecies surrounding Jerusalem. 2 state solutions seem like wishful hippy thinking considering those, and after all that's happened since way back when.

Scimi

I undertand. Jerusalem is currently available to ALL religions equally. Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims of all sects, Mormons, even Bahaj have places of worship.

I do think that 2-state solution is not possible due mostly to PA-Hamas agenda. The jews can be convinced to share the land, but the Muslims absolutely have no desire to do the same. Any so far proposed Muslim Plan involves complete dismantling of Israel. No state can be asked to commit a suiside. THis is the problem.

[Aryeh Jay]

You may not be Jewish or Israeli but you sure sound like one. Of course you know beyond a shadow of a doubt what is in the hearts of every Muslim in Palestine. How else could you say that they want to continue to live in fenced off Ghettos with an Israeli air, land and sea blockade? How else would you know that Muslims want their houses bulldozed and possessions destroyed? Or children killed on beaches playing football? Yes, it has to be 100% of the Muslims fault.

[ethnhunt]

You may not be Jewish or Israeli but you sure sound like one. Of course you know beyond a shadow of a doubt what is in the hearts of every Muslim in Palestine. How else could you say that they want to continue to live in fenced off Ghettos with an Israeli air, land and sea blockade? How else would you know that Muslims want their houses bulldozed and possessions destroyed? Or children killed on beaches playing football? Yes, it has to be 100% of the Muslims fault.

I sound like a person who is aware of history and who is not putting all the responsibility for the conflict one one side. Israel is not the only player here.

I do not want anyone to live in fenced 'gettos'. I want Muslim Arabs to have a good life. I also want the Jews of Israel to have a good life. How can we do that?

Nobody says that Israelis​ are angels. They are not. Their tactics towards Palestinian Arabs is heavy-handed. However, you cannot simply accuse Israelis of all the problems here. Both sides have done a great deal of damage to each other.

For every dead Muslim there is also a dead Jew. I hope you see a problem with your reasoning.

The fact is this, PA have been repeatedly offered a deal to settle this conflict. PA repeatedly refused. Mr. Arafat famously said that if he agreed to the offer made in 2000, he'd be killed by his own people. All Arab leaders who tried to settle this conflict were killed by their own people. King Abdullah of Jordan and Anwar Sadat of Egypt are dead because they tried.

Today Israel is in waiting mode. The Jews are waiting for someone better then Abbas and Arafat to finally make a deal. In the mean time people die on both sides.

Think about this,- if Israelis disarm the Arabs would kill them all. If Arabs disarm, the Jews will offer them peace, like they have been doing since 1948. All wars todate have been started by Arabs. All wars todate have been lost by Arabs. Methinks, it's time to do better.

[Scimitar]

To me, it's just a piece of land.

God's will be done.

Scimi

[AbdurRahman.]

Hmmm...The Jews were expelled from Judea by Persians and by Greeks and finally by Romans. THose are the facts of history. However, the Jewish life in Judea never stopped. There have always been Jewish villiages in the land where Isarel is today. THose are historical facts. Jerusalem has always had a majority of Jews at all times in recorded history. That data is available and is published, look it up.

The most recent wave of emigration into Palestine happpen in the late 1800's. Many Muslim Arabs migrated into the area at that time and also the Jews from Europe arrived just as well. By 1948 there was 1 million Arabs and 600,000 Jews living in British mandated Palestine.

Please understand, that the Jews are the original population of that land. The Arabs also have the right to say the same thing just to a lesser extent, since, the Jews pre-date the Arabs by a great number of centuries. Arabs are not the new owners. NOBODY owned that land in the context of modern world. The best you can say is that the Ottoman Turks ruled that land for 400 years and than the UK took from the Turks as a result of WW1.

In the context of modern world it is United Nations that made the dessision to create new country of israel and Palestine. Palestine never happen due to war waged by Muslim powers against Israel in 1948. Whose fault is that? Jordan ruled West Bank, where Palestine was supposed to be, from 1948 till 1968. Jordan NEVER allowed Palestine to come into existance and NO MUSLIM ARAB complained until Mr. Arafat arrived from Egypt in early 1960's. So, - how can you say that the Arabs are the "new owners"?

By the way, UN also created Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Soudi Arabia in about the same time as Israel was created. I understand that you may not like the facts, but the history is what it is.

lol bro you cannot go back thousands of years and claim rights to a land because that land belonged to jews back then! :Emoji47:; lets give back england to the viking then! :Emoji48:, lets give back the entire wrold to people who lived there ten thousand years ago! :Emoji48:

[Simple_Person]

lol bro you cannot go back thousands of years and claim rights to a land because that land belonged to jews back then! :Emoji47:; lets give back england to the viking then! :Emoji48:, lets give back the entire wrold to people who lived there ten thousand years ago! :Emoji48:

Agreed. If some land would have been abandoned and nobody is having ownership over it, what prevents me to claim it? I saw a documentary that a Arab farmer was being obstructed in his own garden by Zionists placing a settlement there. This goes against the logic and rationality what you @ethnhunt is saying.

Another example. The Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem was build on a place that was empty of any buildings as far as i know before building it. So now suddenly after so many years Zionists that try to speak on behalf of Judaism have come back in the sense of ownership and also try to forcefully claim the place of worship because back in the day that was the location of Temple Mount. You see where i am coming from?

[AbdurRahman.]

Agreed. If some land would have been abandoned and nobody is having ownership over it, what prevents me to claim it? I saw a documentary that a Arab farmer was being obstructed in his own garden by Zionists placing a settlement there. This goes against the logic and rationality what you @ethnhunt is saying.

Another example. The Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem was build on a place that was empty of any buildings as far as i know before building it. So now suddenly after so many years Zionists that try to speak on behave of Judaism have come back in the sense of ownership and also try to forcefully claim the place of worship because back in the day that was the location of Temple Mount. You see where i am coming from?

yup! Agreed!

[ethnhunt]

lol bro you cannot go back thousands of years and claim rights to a land because that land belonged to jews back then! :Emoji47:; lets give back england to the viking then! :Emoji48:, lets give back the entire wrold to people who lived there ten thousand years ago! :Emoji48:

I absolutely agree with you that previous history has nothing to do with the modern reality. And I am not suggesting that the Jews claim the land only due Jewish past history in Judea or their religious commandments.

We live in the modern world, and, today, legitimacy of any country is predicated on UN's decision to establish the country, which is by default a recognition of said country by the majority of the World, and an ability of said country to defend its boundaries. That is all.

UN, as you know, made a historic decision to create Israel and Palestine. Therefore, it is a recognized international entity and Israel is also able to defend itself. So, - the formula is fulfilled.

Palestine never materialized due to a conflict that was started by Arabs. As you know, it was an Arab country of Jordan that deprived Palestinians from forming their own country. Israel had nothing to do with that anytime from 1948 until 1968. Jordan governed that land, commonly known today as a West Bank.

So, - Israel did not steal any land, nor it occupied any land any time before 1968. After 1968, Israel has had an open offer to Palestinian Arabs that can be summarized as follows, - give up belligerence, demilitarize, stop working towards replacing the Jews with Muslims by legislative means or otherwise, and recognize Israel as a Jewish State. That is all, - and Palestine as a country may proceed at any time.

Jews can be persuaded to share the land, but the Muslims, so far, do not even want to theoretically contemplate coexistence. This is not my supposition, this is from PA-Hamas own statements. There is no 'live and let live' in a PA-Hamas vocabulary. I hope you see the problem.

Anyhow, to address your initial point, - here is an example of a modern history. Let's not focus on Israel. Focus on Jordan for example. UN made modern Jordan in 1946. League of nations mandate was used by French to create Lebanon in 1943, Syria in 1941, etc.

As you see, - previous history notwithstanding here. The World makes a decision and we are done. Somehow the Christians are not saying that Lebanon is occupying their land. In the same spirit, Israel is there just like any other country in the region.

[ethnhunt]

Agreed. If some land would have been abandoned and nobody is having ownership over it, what prevents me to claim it?

I agree. In fact as thin as international law is, still if international law will recognize your right to settle the land that has no other claims to it. The problem is that you are implying that Israel somehow did that. That never happened. Israel never settle the land that was claimed by another entity only. It only settled the land that is either claimed by Israel or internationally recognized as a part of Israel. Perhaps you are referring to a disputed land.

I saw a documentary that a Arab farmer was being obstructed in his own garden by Zionists placing a settlement there. This goes against the logic and rationality what you @ethnhunt is saying.

No it doesn't. I agree with you that the optics of what you saw is terrible. The question is, - do you know all the details of what you saw? This is a complicated conflict and many people suffer and continuing to suffer as a result of it, including the farmer the video you saw. The farmer is represented by Palestinian Authority (PA) . It is PA that needs to address this problem with Israel. Do they do that? NO! The Farmer continues to suffer as a result.

Another example. The Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem was build on a place that was empty of any buildings as far as i know before building it. So now suddenly after so many years Zionists that try to speak on behalf of Judaism have come back in the sense of ownership and also try to forcefully claim the place of worship because back in the day that was the location of Temple Mount. You see where i am coming from?

The Al-Aqsa Mosque was built on the ruins of Jewish temple. It is a part of a Temple Mount, as you correctly noted. Temple Mount is a part of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is a part of Israel. So, - the sovereignty of Al-Aqsa Mosque is in the hands of the Government of Israel. However, the Guardian of Al-Aqsa Mosque is the King of Jordan, and its day to day affairs are administered by VAKF, which is a Jordanian religious authority. It is a working compromise.

[Simple_Person]

I absolutely agree with you that previous history has nothing to do with the modern reality. And I am not suggesting that the Jews claim the land only due Jewish past history in Judea or their religious commandments.

We live in the modern world, and, today, legitimacy of any country is predicated on UN's decision to establish the country, which is by default a recognition of said country by the majority of the World, and an ability of said country to defend its boundaries. That is all.

UN, as you know, made a historic decision to create Israel and Palestine. Therefore, it is a recognized international entity and Israel is also able to defend itself. So, - the formula is fulfilled.

Here is the error made by many. When talked about UN, suddenly here the full stop is drawn. However, if we still use "the logic" of UN, we talk about for example international law. By whom is this guarded countries don't go over the line? As far as i know again UN or institution under UN. So UN has with the decision to make Israel, which again by NORMAL logic is contradictory to taking land from other people and giving it to them, while we would rather say give them a piece of Germany instead ;). But never mind this, we know of the 6 day war with Israel and the Arabs in 1967. The borders before that event were acknowledged by UN. Now 1967-2017 it's gonna be 50 years soon. UN does not recognize those new borders that Israel keeps making, yet as far as i know and do correct me NOTHING is done against these illegal events that go against this so called international law. Every time something has been done, US veto's on behalf of Israel..so again UN is kind of useless.

So would you say UN is a reliable party that guards treaties? For me personally i see them as a mafia group. They make the rules and who every does not abide by THEIR rules, is wrong..o_O!!. Who said we agreed to play according to your rules? In the past i did not know that this criminal organization aka mafia group had also other institutions under them. However when i looked i was shocked..IMF being one of those.

This reminds me of i believe 16 century in the times of pirates. The British had all kind of laws, pirates however wanted to be free and not abide by those laws. They were branded as criminals just because they did not want to abide by those laws ;D.
There is much going on but nothing is being said. For example, as i already mentioned IMF, Christine Lagarde of the IMF joining the Bilderberg meetings. No camera's are allowed big secret meeting. Most people would say conspiracy lunatic, well Bilderberg meetings are not conspiracy..as you can find enough footage of people of the private sector, politicians you name it join the meetings once a year. However as far as i know it is rather a western/NATO party exclusive as the Turks also join in.

[aaj]

Israel never wanted to two states. They were fooling anyone who believes that. What they want is the creation of greater israel, which consists of all whole of palestine, lebanon, syria, jordan and parts of north africa (egypt). they are awaiting for their messiah to come and he won't come until they build the king solomon temple on top of masjid aqsa and establish greater israel. Anyone believe in any two state resolutions or israel making peace is only deluding themselves of the reality of what is and what is planned.

I for one am not saddened by this end hope of two-state solution. If you know your deen then you know it's not going to happen. 60 years of occupation and oppression isn't magically going away with 2 states. Palestine has to be taken over so the mahdi can liberate it once again.

[M.I.A.]

well, two places of pilgrimage are allowed..

if you have the money and the appropriate visas.

why not visit while you can?

[AbdurRahman.]

I absolutely agree with you that previous history has nothing to do with the modern reality. And I am not suggesting that the Jews claim the land only due Jewish past history in Judea or their religious commandments.

We live in the modern world, and, today, legitimacy of any country is predicated on UN's decision to establish the country, which is by default a recognition of said country by the majority of the World, and an ability of said country to defend its boundaries. That is all.

UN, as you know, made a historic decision to create Israel and Palestine. Therefore, it is a recognized international entity and Israel is also able to defend itself. So, - the formula is fulfilled.

Palestine never materialized due to a conflict that was started by Arabs. As you know, it was an Arab country of Jordan that deprived Palestinians from forming their own country. Israel had nothing to do with that anytime from 1948 until 1968. Jordan governed that land, commonly known today as a West Bank.

So, - Israel did not steal any land, nor it occupied any land any time before 1968. After 1968, Israel has had an open offer to Palestinian Arabs that can be summarized as follows, - give up belligerence, demilitarize, stop working towards replacing the Jews with Muslims by legislative means or otherwise, and recognize Israel as a Jewish State. That is all, - and Palestine as a country may proceed at any time.

Jews can be persuaded to share the land, but the Muslims, so far, do not even want to theoretically contemplate coexistence. This is not my supposition, this is from PA-Hamas own statements. There is no 'live and let live' in a PA-Hamas vocabulary. I hope you see the problem.

Anyhow, to address your initial point, - here is an example of a modern history. Let's not focus on Israel. Focus on Jordan for example. UN made modern Jordan in 1946. League of nations mandate was used by French to create Lebanon in 1943, Syria in 1941, etc.

As you see, - previous history notwithstanding here. The World makes a decision and we are done. Somehow the Christians are not saying that Lebanon is occupying their land. In the same spirit, Israel is there just like any other country in the region.

UN is nothing but a USA tool my friend; it is run by and ruled by the USA so to say the UN decides is really not considering the reality of the UN being a zionist opressive organisation; a 'tool' for USA and UK to implement their evil in this world


us humans really have to have a sense of justice and not use UN to justify our prejudices, hate, evil etc etc.


Bottom line is the poor Palestinians have had their land taken from them and their being severely oppressed ever since and we need to rectify that as humans otherwise we will just be another oppressor supporting oppression

[Scimitar]

I am always amused over conversations about Israel and the occupation.

If the Jews were to disarm, hahahaha, that made me laugh so much.

IF THE JEWS WERE TO DISARM :D WAHAHAHAHAAA.

*cough* anyway, back to the programme...

Oh wait? we on commercial break? wahaha, IF JEWS WERE TO DISARM :D sorry. That just makes me laugh.

Scimi

[M.I.A.]

..well the whole place is a fight.

if any of us were to disarm.

surely people would que up to fill a plate on any weakness.

sins, illness, poverty..

honestly, just depends on who your here with.. and how good your answers are.
..
..
your either going to have to be sinless or very strong.. wheres that defence budget?

[Aryeh Jay]

UN is nothing but a USA tool my friend; it is run by and ruled by the USA so to say the UN decides is really not considering the reality of the UN being a zionist opressive organisation; a 'tool' for USA and UK to implement their evil in this world

And yet in the USA, the U.N. is seen as a Muslim controlled organization that uses Russia Veto power to prevent the “peaceful” countries from installing democracy everywhere.

[Aryeh Jay]

I am always amused over conversations about Israel and the occupation.

If the Jews were to disarm, hahahaha, that made me laugh so much.

IF THE JEWS WERE TO DISARM :D WAHAHAHAHAAA.

*cough* anyway, back to the programme...

Oh wait? we on commercial break? wahaha, IF JEWS WERE TO DISARM :D sorry. That just makes me laugh.

Scimi

I think Israelis is a better term than the ambiguous “Jews”. Most religious Jews I know are pacifists or shun violence. Not every Jew is a Zionist invader bent on killing innocents. We should be better than the people that lump an entire religion into a bunch of evil dowers because of the action of a few.

[Grandad]

I think Israelis is a better term than the ambiguous “Jews”. Most religious Jews I know are pacifists or shun violence. Not every Jew is a Zionist invader bent on killing innocents. We should be better than the people that lump an entire religion into a bunch of evil dowers because of the action of a few.

Exactly!!!

[Scimitar]

I think Israelis is a better term than the ambiguous “Jews”. Most religious Jews I know are pacifists or shun violence. Not every Jew is a Zionist invader bent on killing innocents. We should be better than the people that lump an entire religion into a bunch of evil dowers because of the action of a few.

Have you ever watched any of Corey Gill Shuster's vids on youtube?

Check this out:




...Now here is the thing. The video was shot entirely in Jerusalem, Israel. The interviewer is asking Jews what they think about Jesus, Mary and Christianity.


But you'll notice something else - most of these Israeli Jews - are actually secular and don't follow religion at all.


So let me get this straight - the interviewed were Jewish, but not following their faith - that's what I take away from the video.


So why the need to return to their promised land if they don't believe?

I mean, isn't this what the Israeli Occupier claims: God gave this land to me, it's my birth right - however, I don't believe in God -but he gave me the land anyway.


I'd like to hear your thoughts.


Scimi

[M.I.A.]

amazing. seems like they are a difficult people to move.

...very expressive through the hands.

i cant fault them. they seem to have an integrity.

nothing untowards in the language.

as it stands, very difficult to hold any bias.
..
..
...but the test of men is character under hardship.

i would say that wouldn't i?

lol at the two old men at the beginning..

we dont even think about it, we just do... fantastic.

you must understand that the mind is an extremely important thing.. the thought processes even more so.

[ethnhunt]

Here is the error made by many. When talked about UN, suddenly here the full stop is drawn. However, if we still use "the logic" of UN, we talk about for example international law. By whom is this guarded countries don't go over the line? As far as i know again UN or institution under UN. So UN has with the decision to make Israel, which again by NORMAL logic is contradictory to taking land from other people and giving it to them, while we would rather say give them a piece of Germany instead [IMG]file:///C:\Users\TEMP~1.OLD\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\14 \clip_image001.gif[/IMG].

I am sorry, - but you are not making any sense. What "NORMAL logic" are you talking about? Whose logic is that? Please be clear...

You are wrong, when you say that UN took "... land from other people...". This is a figment of your imagination. It never happened. If you insist, however, please provide evidence of your assertion and I'd happy to comment and show to you and all here, just how wrong you are.

But never mind this, we know of the 6 day war with Israel and the Arabs in 1967. The borders before that event were acknowledged by UN.

No, that never happen. No borders were ever in existence in 1968. What did exist are the lines of separation of forces, - an armistices lines, not borders. It was never a border recognized by anybody, certainly not by UN. And certainly not by Arab countries. In 1968 the state of war exited between Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and also Kuwait as far as I recall, on one side and Israel on the other.

Now 1967-2017 it's gonna be 50 years soon. UN does not recognize those new borders that Israel keeps making, yet as far as i know and do correct me NOTHING is done against these illegal events that go against this so called international law. Every time something has been done, US veto's on behalf of Israel..so again UN is kind of useless.

Today there is a border with Jordan, along the river Jordan and the border with Egypt in Sinai. There is no border with Syria or Lebanon. Israel had self-defined a boundary with Syria and Lebanon and Israel, as well as Syria and Lebanon, may change this boundary at any time. The point is that Syria and Lebanon are not capable to do that even though they want to do that. Israel is comfortable with the boundary in the Golan and has no plans to change it.

UN does not acknowledge the boundary in the Golan Heights. International law has no provisions to say anything on this topic, so Israeli annexation of Golan Heights in 1980 is not in contradiction with any International treaties of legal provisions.

Please look up International Law statues on the topic of armistices lines and annexation.

So would you say UN is a reliable party that guards treaties? For me personally i see them as a mafia group. They make the rules and who every does not abide by THEIR rules, is wrong..o_O!!. Who said we agreed to play according to your rules? In the past i did not know that this criminal organization aka mafia group had also other institutions under them. However when i looked i was shocked..IMF being one of those.
This reminds me of i believe 16 century in the times of pirates. The British had all kind of laws, pirates however wanted to be free and not abide by those laws. They were branded as criminals just because they did not want to abide by those laws [IMG]file:///C:\Users\TEMP~1.OLD\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtml1\21 \clip_image001.gif[/IMG].

I see...you do not like UN. I do not like UN also. The point is that you do not have to like UN, you just have to abide by UN's binding decisions. I must remind you that you are not living alone on this planet. Majority of nations instituted UN on your behalf. Nobody asked you, I understand that, but nobody HAD to ask you.

Furthermore, - may I remind you that UN created many countries, - among them many Muslim countries. Are you OK with countries like Pakistan or Jordan benefiting from UN's decisions?

Perhaps it is a good idea for you to think about things first...

[ethnhunt]

Israel never wanted to two states. They were fooling anyone who believes that. What they want is the creation of greater israel, which consists of all whole of palestine, lebanon, syria, jordan and parts of north africa (egypt). they are awaiting for their messiah to come and he won't come until they build the king solomon temple on top of masjid aqsa and establish greater israel. Anyone believe in any two state resolutions or israel making peace is only deluding themselves of the reality of what is and what is planned.

I for one am not saddened by this end hope of two-state solution. If you know your deen then you know it's not going to happen. 60 years of occupation and oppression isn't magically going away with 2 states. Palestine has to be taken over so the mahdi can liberate it once again.

I do respect your convictions. I, however, hope that you re-examine how your convictions inform your political views. To wit, - if Israel wanted to do what you are saying, then Israel would have done it a long time ago. There is no country in Middle east that can withstand IDF. That was true in 1970s and it is even more true today. Israel is a reginal superpower, yet it does not behave in a manner that you suggest.

Furthermore, why would Isarel repeadetely tries to find an acomodation with Palestinian Arabs? Why Israel signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan?

I hope you see, that your points do not have any basis in reality.

[ethnhunt]

UN is nothing but a USA tool my friend; it is run by and ruled by the USA so to say the UN decides is really not considering the reality of the UN being a zionist opressive organisation; a 'tool' for USA and UK to implement their evil in this world


us humans really have to have a sense of justice and not use UN to justify our prejudices, hate, evil etc etc.


Bottom line is the poor Palestinians have had their land taken from them and their being severely oppressed ever since and we need to rectify that as humans otherwise we will just be another oppressor supporting oppression

I understand your frastration. But...what do "...poor Palestinians..." have to do with UN?

UN's Security Consul is there so that we do not have another global war. The issue of Israel and Palestine are 'small potatoes'. The World has problems taht are more important then Arab-Israeli conflict.

Further, - you do not have to like UN. But UN is there by agreement by the majority of the people of this planet. Please start an advocacy group to replace UN with something you may like better and convince the majority of your point of view. However, those countries that UN created in the middle 20th century, might disagree with you. Those countries are thankful to UN for their existence. You know, - countries like Jordan, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and, yes, Israel, etc. etc.

[aaj]

I do respect your convictions. I, however, hope that you re-examine how your convictions inform your political views. To wit, - if Israel wanted to do what you are saying, then Israel would have done it a long time ago. There is no country in Middle east that can withstand IDF. That was true in 1970s and it is even more true today. Israel is a reginal superpower, yet it does not behave in a manner that you suggest.

Furthermore, why would Isarel repeadetely tries to find an acomodation with Palestinian Arabs? Why Israel signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan?

I hope you see, that your points do not have any basis in reality.

Israel is an apartheid state, not a superpower
It signs treaties only to break them (with Palestine), treaties with egypt and jordon are a joke, they are just puppets
it's friendly to states like jordan only till their time comes to step down
It cannot go all out and do what it wants which is why it's taking gradually steps
Compare the 1967 borders to now, you only find Israel on the map and Palestine as occupied territories
had Israel done all that from day one, it wouldn't have worked. same goes for rest of its plan

Only reason it doesn't not go any further then it already has is because it fears repercussions from the world. A supper aggressive move like that will lead to worldwide boycott and call for jihad from the Muslim world. The US and UK won't be able to protect it and the UN will be just as useless as it is now.

Further, - you do not have to like UN. But UN is there by agreement by the majority of the people of this planet. Please start an advocacy group to replace UN with something you may like better and convince the majority of your point of view. However, those countries that UN created in the middle 20th century, might disagree with you. Those countries are thankful to UN for their existence. You know, - countries like Jordan, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and, yes, Israel, etc. etc

UN is there by the force of the western powers. It serves only as a means for proxy wars and sanctions against non-western nations. The African nations are talking about pulling out because according to them the UN seems to go only after African leaders as "dictators" while the west continues its dictatorship and war crimes in the world.

I hope you read some alternative news to what they teaching you in history class and mainstream media.

[Simple_Person]

I am sorry, - but you are not making any sense. What "NORMAL logic" are you talking about? Whose logic is that? Please be clear...

What i mean by this is the logic of UN dictating things for people. You point out that i am not living alone on this plant in the lower part of your comment, however that doesn't mean that what they say suddenly is "oke" because is a body of countries that have come to unite with the "intention" of peace. To give you an example, countries were made and countries would fall. I am myself a Kurd and Kurds have been separated in 4 countries, if i have to choose between oppression or having a separate state, my choice is very clear to have a separate state. However i myself do NOT acknowledge those countries, while UN does. So this is what i am trying to point at, forgive me for not being more clearly about it.

You are wrong, when you say that UN took "... land from other people...". This is a figment of your imagination. It never happened. If you insist, however, please provide evidence of your assertion and I'd happy to comment and show to you and all here, just how wrong you are.

Back in 1939 there was a white paper that restricted the amount of Jews immigrating to modern day Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939

So through out the years the amount of Jews that had immigrated to Israel were rising tremendously. Because of that a certain restriction was put on. From very few Jewish people living there suddenly a lot of Jewish people living there and UN acknowledging the statehood of Israel. So what i mean by this "land grab", if in certain land lives for example 1000 people of race X compared to 2 million people of race Y that already have been living there for very long tong already. The amount of people of race X immigrating to that land suddenly let's say exceeding 5 million after a time, would you agree with me that STILL this race X doesn't have the rights to declare their own country? Although back in history this place was their homeland so to say.

No, that never happen. No borders were ever in existence in 1968. What did exist are the lines of separation of forces, - an armistices lines, not borders. It was never a border recognized by anybody, certainly not by UN. And certainly not by Arab countries. In 1968 the state of war exited between Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and also Kuwait as far as I recall, on one side and Israel on the other.

But why do you still hear that the settlements are not recognized by UN? I mean clearly those settlements are build on ground that are not acknowledged by UN, so UN is clearly "objecting"(with words) to it.

Today there is a border with Jordan, along the river Jordan and the border with Egypt in Sinai. There is no border with Syria or Lebanon. Israel had self-defined a boundary with Syria and Lebanon and Israel, as well as Syria and Lebanon, may change this boundary at any time. The point is that Syria and Lebanon are not capable to do that even though they want to do that. Israel is comfortable with the boundary in the Golan and has no plans to change it.

UN does not acknowledge the boundary in the Golan Heights. International law has no provisions to say anything on this topic, so Israeli annexation of Golan Heights in 1980 is not in contradiction with any International treaties of legal provisions.

Please look up International Law statues on the topic of armistices lines and annexation.

For somebody who does "not agree" with many things Israel does, you do defend them very strongly ;). I am not saying you shouldn't defend certain party although you may not like them, however finding excuses while truth is truth. Anyways, to my knowledge is that Golan heights as well as Sinai peninsula are being used as "buffer" zones one could say. To keep a gap between those countries and them. So off course Israel is fine having those "gaps" as a sort "save keeping" between them and other countries. As it is much easier to keep a mostly abandoned area monitored than when a lot of people are living there.

I see...you do not like UN. I do not like UN also. The point is that you do not have to like UN, you just have to abide by UN's binding decisions. I must remind you that you are not living alone on this planet. Majority of nations instituted UN on your behalf. Nobody asked you, I understand that, but nobody HAD to ask you.

Furthermore, - may I remind you that UN created many countries, - among them many Muslim countries. Are you OK with countries like Pakistan or Jordan benefiting from UN's decisions?

Perhaps it is a good idea for you to think about things first...

Liking them is one thing, but not liking a group or somebody doesn't mean you should not agree with them. So it is not because i do not like them. Their whole way of handling things is corrupt. So i do not like them because who they are, but because what they do. So abiding by UN's decisions, is the reason that i am saying this is not oke. As THEIR decisions are corrupt. As i said it i think earlier, every time something negative was brought up towards Israel, US using their veto-vote to dismiss it because of AIPAC and US government full of Zionists or people influenced by AIPAC. Besides that, i do not like international law to begin with. To give you another example, as far as i know Turkey invaded Cyprus back in i believe 1974. Till this day by international law it is occupation. However i have not found actions taken against them. Also just because a country is made, doesn't mean it should remain like that and should not be invaded. So as far as i have seen is that UN is trying to uphold countries that may not abide by justice.

While in the past empires would rise and they would fall. Based mostly you could say peoples struggles against oppressors, however now a days take a look at Turkey even. The Kurds are being oppressed and till this day to MY knowledge i haven't heard anything from UN towards Turkey...just recently i believe with what Turkey was doing to the Kurds. This country named Turkey is ONLY in the benefit of the Turks, while i would argue it should better fall as they are doing nothing but oppression.

I do not like one country made in the Middle East. That is mostly my argument. I want all of them (In the Middle East) to fall and unite under Islam. So UN's decision to create Pakistan or Jordan or you name it is even oppressive against the Muslims by creating those countries so to say. This divides them by creating nationalism, while this thing called nationalism is forbidden in Islam.

So, i do not have to think about that, as i have already pondered a lot about it.

[AbdurRahman.]

And yet in the USA, the U.N. is seen as a Muslim controlled organization that uses Russia Veto power to prevent the “peaceful” countries from installing democracy everywhere.

lol well there you go!!! :Emoji46::Emoji46::Emoji46:the worlds full of crazy conspiracy theories! :Emoji46::Emoji46::Emoji46:

[AbdurRahman.]

I understand your frastration. But...what do "...poor Palestinians..." have to do with UN?

UN's Security Consul is there so that we do not have another global war. The issue of Israel and Palestine are 'small potatoes'. The World has problems taht are more important then Arab-Israeli conflict.

Further, - you do not have to like UN. But UN is there by agreement by the majority of the people of this planet. Please start an advocacy group to replace UN with something you may like better and convince the majority of your point of view. However, those countries that UN created in the middle 20th century, might disagree with you. Those countries are thankful to UN for their existence. You know, - countries like Jordan, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and, yes, Israel, etc. etc.

what??? whats the palesitinians got to do with it????

lolol!!! i thought this topic was about them!!!! :Emoji46::Emoji46::Emoji46:

if they weren't being oppressed, then there's no problem is there? :Emoji46:

[سيف الله]

Salaam

The peace process was always a joke, plenty people in the know exposed it in the early 1990s. Israel wants to go for full annexation and put the Palestinians in reservations. Same thing that happened to the native Americans.

What Israel is doing is much worse than apartheid Africa.

[ethnhunt]

Israel is an apartheid state, not a superpower...

Do you even know what “…apartheid state…” is? I bet you do not! Why don’t you look it up, ok?

Please understand that Israel cannot be called an apartheid state because unlike South Africa, which enshrined its racial segregation policies in law, Israeli law is the same for Jewish citizens and other Israeli citizens, with no explicit distinction between race, creed or sex. 1.8 Mostly Muslim Arabs vote in Israel.

There is an Arab Supreme Court judge in Israel, there are senior Army officers in general rank who are Arabs in Israel, there are thousands highly educated doctors, lawyers and engineers who are Muslims in Israel. So…what apartheid are you talking about? Please note that Palestinian Arabs are NOT citizens of Israel and Israeli common law does not apply to them. They live under Israeli military administration. This is a temporary matter until such time that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is resolved. Hopefully soon!

As for Israel being a superpower, - it is a fact simply because Israeli qualifies as such. This is not ‘good’ or a ‘bad’ thing. It is simply a fact. Israel can project power anywhere in the Middle East with impunity. It does that occasionally in Syria and Lebanon these days and nothing or nobody can stop them. This little fact makes them a regional superpower by definition.

I hope you understand…

It signs treaties only to break them (with Palestine), treaties with egypt and jordon are a joke, they are just puppets

No ‘treaties’ have ever been signed with Palestinian Authority. Some agreements were signed, but no treaties.

Peace treaties with Jordan and Egypt endured for decades now and they are not a joke. They are first and foremost in the interest of Arabs states, as they need those treaties A LOT more than Israel does. To wit, - Egypt gets 2.4 billion in foreign aid dollars from US for signing the treaty and Jordan gets a billion. Without that money Egypt will literary starve and Jordan will dissolve as a country. Israel gets.3.1 billion that it does not need and often says so to US. But Israel takes the money because it is a part of the deal involving Egypt and Jordan. Israel does not get the cash, - it gets cooperation and American hardware that is worth that much.

So, - please do not be so quick with your judgments. Look into the substance of the matter first!

it's friendly to states like jordan only till their time comes to step down
It cannot go all out and do what it wants which is why it's taking gradually steps
Compare the 1967 borders to now, you only find Israel on the map and Palestine as occupied territories
had Israel done all that from day one, it wouldn't have worked. same goes for rest of its plan

Are you implying that Israel wants to take over Jordan? If so, - this is not true. No such intention has EVER been pronounced by ANY Israeli leader. West Bank is a disputed territory and its status needs to be negotiate out.

May I remind you that it was Jordan that kept West Bank for itself from 1948 till 1968? Jordanian Army overrun West bank in 1948. It was Jordan that never turned West Bank into a state for Palestinian Arabs. Do you know why Jordan did that? The reason is simple, - Jordan IS a Palestinian State. So, those Arabs who lived in the West Bank from 1948 till 1968 never complained and never asked for independence. They actually lived in the Palestinian State at the time.

Had it not been for the desire on the part of Jordan to “…push the Jews into the sea…”, to quote Mr. Nasser, back in 1968, Palestinian Arabs would have been happy today as citizens of Jordan. At least Jordan gave them passports. But, - Jordan with Egypt and Syria, attacked Israel in 1968 and LOST the war. With that they lost territory.

Palestinian Arabs are seen as a hostile population in Israel. They cannot have a country without agreeing to conditions. In fact, please understand, that Jordan has a lot more to lose then Israel if Palestine becomes a country. Israel does not want to govern the Arabs in the West Bank and the resolution of this crisis is in Israel interest, so the Israelis are looking to fix the problem. I am certain that the Arabs of Palestine have other views on that, ok?

Only reason it doesn't not go any further then it already has is because it fears repercussions from the world. A supper aggressive move like that will lead to worldwide boycott and call for jihad from the Muslim world. The US and UK won't be able to protect it and the UN will be just as useless as it is now.

Again….you are completely wrong here. Israeli economy is so integrated with the European and American economy that no fears of any boycott or any condemnation have ever been expressed by Israeli leaders.

Naturally world’s opinion is very important, but UN habitually condemns Israeli nearly on a monthly basis and nobody in Israel really cares for that. So, - why would Israel be afraid to do what you are implying it can do? If it were in the national interest of Israel to attack Lebanon for instance, Israeli would do it without any hesitation. To put it simply, - such an action is NOT in the interest of Israel and so it does not happen.
Further, - there is no fear of “…jihad from the Muslim world…”. It is so, for two fundamental reasons. First, - the Muslim world so fragmented, and it has always been fragmented for the past 1400 years, that the Muslims can’t even agree of the meaning of jihad. Those who happen to agree represent small group and are easily handled as events in Syria and Iraq began to demonstrate.

Second, even if Muslim countries unite under a single banner, which not simply unlikely, but an impossibility now and in any foreseeable future, still Israel is demonstrably stronger.

Please understand that Islamic unity may be more pragmatic and less fundamentalist if such unity has any chance of succeeding in the context of modern world’s economy. With pragmatism comes an accommodation. So, - really… Israel has nothing to fear here. Conversely those who want a conflict may just get one. It is a conflict that can only have one outcome. We both know how it will go down…

UN is there by the force of the western powers. It serves only as a means for proxy wars and sanctions against non-western nations. The African nations are talking about pulling out because according to them the UN seems to go only after African leaders as "dictators" while the west continues its dictatorship and war crimes in the world.

African nations will starve without UN and will fight each other to the bitter end without UN. Please try to see the big picture here. African nations cannot survive without UN. Whatever your gripes are with UN, please understand that it is the Western nations can do without UN these days, but the 3^rd world countries cannot.

I hope you read some alternative news to what they teaching you in history class and mainstream media.

I read ALL news. My point to YOU is that I can defend my arguments in a logical and factual manner. Can you?

I can also criticize the West and Israel a lot better than you can. Believe there is a lot to criticize there. West is not perfect. However, relative to Muslim-dominated countries, the West is doing well. Methinks, it is a good idea to fix your own ‘backyard’ first, before you attempt to ‘fix’ the rest of the planet. Don’t you think?

Also, please do not misinterpret my comments as a blind defense of Israel. I have no such intention. I am not an Israeli or Jewish for that matter. I have no such agenda.

But I would not blindly accuse any country for the ‘sins’ or problems it is NOT responsible for creating. It is clear to me that you accuse Israel because you do not like the idea of a Jewish State in the Middle East, even though such a state is not a violation of any laws international or otherwise. Your position is therefore wrong in my view.

[ethnhunt]

Salaam

The peace process was always a joke, plenty people in the know exposed it in the early 1990s. Israel wants to go for full annexation and put the Palestinians in reservations. Same thing that happened to the native Americans.

What Israel is doing is much worse than apartheid Africa.

You know, - in a way, I do agree with you in, at least partially. It seems that you are right about Israeli desire to annex West Bank. But you are definitely wrong about “…puting the Palestinians in reservations…”.

Certainly since 1968 Israel has toyed with an idea of annexing West bank in a kind of 'on and off' fashion. Strategically, I think, it has always been a long term plan to extend Israel into what Israel calls Judea and Samaria or West Bank. Although Labor Party in Israel tried to deal with Palestinian Authority in a bid for two-state solution, it never worked because Mr. Arafat and after him Mr. Abbas, never had any desire to compromise with Israel.

Simply put, Palestinian Arab leadership either never seriously negotiated, or, asked for terms that Israel can never agree. That’s not how you negotiate! I place blame for the failure of two-state solution squarely on PA door step. Palestinians could have had their country in 2000, but they decided on Intifada instead…and lost.

After 2008 the possibility of two-state solution is pretty much doomed. Palestinians had time since 1993 to fix it up with Israeli Labor Governments and they wasted their time. Today, Israeli Government is in no mood to negotiate on the same terms, particularly with Hamas and Hisbolla around. The only way the State of Palestine can come into existence today if PA were to accept Israeli terms of non-belligerence, demilitarization, education reform, no return of refugees and Israeli security control of Jordan Valley. Anything short of that is a non-starter. Israel’s part in this deal is a total economic rehabilitation of Arab areas, reparation payments, free market set-up and defense alliance.

However, at this time and foreseeable future, PA will not accept Israeli terms. So, - the history is moving all of us into what appears to be Plan B. In the next 50 years or so, Israel may annex either the entire West Bank or Area C only. Some Palestinians will get Israeli citizenship and some will get a chance to reside elsewhere. Extremists will be deported. Demographically, this doable for Israel, since there are about 2.5 million Arabs in the West Bank and about 500,000 Jews. It may work, once all the extremists are gone. If only Area C is annexed then Area A and B will become Palestine or a confederated Palestine with Jordan. THis is the most likely outcome in the next 50-100 years.

Although sometimes I think that Israelis are playing this way smarter then most of us can see. They threaten to annex West Bank, but they do not do it in return for US political favors and its own long term strategic objectives. For example, Egypt’s President’s Al-Sisi plan for Arab NATO was enthusiastically endorsed by Netanyahu and may proceed. In return there was a recent declaration by Mr. Lieberman (defense minister) that Israel has no plans to annex West Bank.

Arab NATO will cement legitimacy of Israeli in the Middle East, since Israel and US will be an integral part of it. This way Sunni Arabs States may deter Iran, which is a much bigger problem than Palestinian issue. By playing Palestinian issue as a secondary, less serious issue, relative to Iranian aspirations to control Middle East, Israel is becoming a partner with states like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia and Jordan. For the Arab World, Israel and US are now two country that just may ensure their long term survival. As strange as it may sound to you, the sad truth is that all Arab States do not really care for Palestinian Arabs. They say that the care, but they do not do anything to help. Israel helps Palestinians way more than any Arabs State EVER helped them. Go figure…

Israel is playing its cards in a smart way. One can only wish that the Arabs do the same.

[aaj]

Do you even know what “…apartheid state…” is? I bet you do not! Why don’t you look it up, ok?

Please understand that Israel cannot be called an apartheid state .

This is as far as I read and stopped. I don't need to read your posts any more, as you are either zionist troll yourself or a pro-zionist stooge. I do not converse with terrorists or their sympathizers.


New UN Report Confirms Israel is an “Apartheid” State, Calls for BDS
https://bdsmovement.net/news/new-un-...tate-calls-bds
http://imemc.org/article/new-un-repo...calls-for-bds/
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...054053798.html

[ethnhunt]

This is as far as I read and stopped. I don't need to read your posts any more, as you are either zionist troll yourself or a pro-zionist stooge. I do not converse with terrorists or their sympathizers.


New UN Report Confirms Israel is an “Apartheid” State, Calls for BDS
https://bdsmovement.net/news/new-un-...tate-calls-bds
http://imemc.org/article/new-un-repo...calls-for-bds/
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...054053798.html

very well. I am sorry if I upset you. I am not a zionist nor am I a sympathizer of Israel. I just want the truth, even if it is hard to look at it. I would gladly support your couse, or any right couse, if you show me the reason. So far you have not.

Look at your links! They are from an extremely biased sourses.

[Futuwwa]

Certainly since 1968 Israel has toyed with an idea of annexing West bank in a kind of 'on and off' fashion. Strategically, I think, it has always been a long term plan to extend Israel into what Israel calls Judea and Samaria or West Bank. Although Labor Party in Israel tried to deal with Palestinian Authority in a bid for two-state solution, it never worked because Mr. Arafat and after him Mr. Abbas, never had any desire to compromise with Israel.

Simply put, Palestinian Arab leadership either never seriously negotiated, or, asked for terms that Israel can never agree. That’s not how you negotiate! I place blame for the failure of two-state solution squarely on PA door step. Palestinians could have had their country in 2000, but they decided on Intifada instead…and lost.

How exactly is Palestinian leadership not compromising, considering the terms they're ready to make peace on? By accepting the two-state paradigm as it's currently understood, they're already agreeing to make peace on severely inequal terms.

Even if they got the entirety of the West Bank and Gaza, that'd be 22% of the Mandate of Palestine, while Israel gets 78%, almost four times as much land. They'd agree to limitations on their sovereignty such as limits on the size of military forces, Israeli control of airspace and the outer border, Israeli military access to select areas, Israeli right to cut the West Bank in two or cut it off from Gaza at its discretion, etc, while Israel would be under no such reciprocal limits to its sovereignty, but would instead get to retain the ability to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the Earth. Finally, the Palestinian leadership has agreed to compromise on the Palestinian refugee question, being ready to accept a cap on the number who would get to return, even though it's a fundamental human right, and thus something Israel is obliged to let them do fully and without reciprocation and in the absence of any peace treaty. Israel, naturally, isn't offering the Palestinians to waive a fundamental human right of millions of its citizens as part of a peace treaty.

So considering how the Palestinian leadership is still ready to make peace on such inequal terms, but Israel won't have it but wants terms that are even more inequal in its favour, how exactly is the Palestinian leadership guilty of not being ready to compromise?

[aaj]

Look at your links! They are from an extremely biased sourses.

you are in denial after denial. i'm surprised you consider al jazeera 'extremely bias', well at least its not fake media like the western media. Anyways, all media covered it. Google yourself before it disappears of the web so people like you can say there's no proof and it's only found on "bias" and "alternative news outlets". Then again it doesn't matter what you believe, the world knows that terrorist regime is an Apartheid state, even if some of them deny it as well.


NY Times: U.N. Diplomat Behind Report Accusing Israel of Apartheid Quits

CNN :UN report on Israeli 'apartheid' - CNNPolitics.com - CNN.com

Reuters : Israel imposes 'apartheid regime' on Palestinians: U.N. report | Reuters

RT: 'Israeli apartheid' report scandal - RT.com

Independent: Israel is imposing 'apartheid regime' on Palestinians, UN agency says ...

times of Israel :Arabs protest to UN chief about withdrawal of Israel 'apartheid' report ...

Fox :Arabs protest UN's withdrawal of Israel 'apartheid' report | Fox News

Washington Post : U.N. agency head quits over report calling Israel an 'apartheid regime ...

EuroeNews :UN buries report accusing Israel of 'apartheid' | Euronews

PressTV :PressTV-Debate: Israel 'apartheid' report


"It is not the eyes that are blind, but the hearts." (Qur'an 22:46)

[Simple_Person]

you are in denial after denial. i'm surprised you consider al jazeera 'extremely bias', well at least its not fake media like the western media. Anyways, all media covered it. Google yourself before it disappears of the web so people like you can say there's no proof and it's only found on "bias" and "alternative news outlets". Then again it doesn't matter what you believe, the world knows that terrorist regime is an Apartheid state, even if some of them deny it as well.


NY Times: U.N. Diplomat Behind Report Accusing Israel of Apartheid Quits

CNN :UN report on Israeli 'apartheid' - CNNPolitics.com - CNN.com

Reuters : Israel imposes 'apartheid regime' on Palestinians: U.N. report | Reuters

RT: 'Israeli apartheid' report scandal - RT.com

Independent: Israel is imposing 'apartheid regime' on Palestinians, UN agency says ...

times of Israel :Arabs protest to UN chief about withdrawal of Israel 'apartheid' report ...

Fox :Arabs protest UN's withdrawal of Israel 'apartheid' report | Fox News

Washington Post : U.N. agency head quits over report calling Israel an 'apartheid regime ...

EuroeNews :UN buries report accusing Israel of 'apartheid' | Euronews

PressTV :PressTV-Debate: Israel 'apartheid' report


"It is not the eyes that are blind, but the hearts." (Qur'an 22:46)

You are wasting your time. Among human beings there are those that say something that is indeed based on logic, rationality and reason with legit resources and are right based on the amount of knowledge and understanding they have. However still a human being cannot be right in everything, as there are always on some subjects or even the same subject that you think you are a expert people who are more knowledgeable. People who often think they know it all but suddenly see contradictory information towards their observation or knowledge will split in to two types. One type will acknowledge and thank you for correcting and educating him/her, the other type is the one that will try to discredit you, as the discussion is not about the truth, although they might say they are pursuing that. It is rather wanting to win the discussion and feel superior. :facepalm:

This second type is the aya that you gave.

[ethnhunt]

How exactly is Palestinian leadership not compromising, considering the terms they're ready to make peace on? By accepting the two-state paradigm as it's currently understood, they're already agreeing to make peace on severely inequal terms.

Well…ok...I’ll bite! “…inequal terms…” you say, - no, this is not how this game is played. There are NO equal terms here, because the starting point in this negotiating process is not between equal partners. Israelis have a state and a prosperous state. Palestinian Arabs have nothing. This is not 1948 either, when both parties were on equal terms. You point applies to 1948. Israel has an opportunity to negotiate from the position of strength, while PA-led Palestinians have very little if anything to offer here. What Palestinians do have is the right to exist in secure environment. They cannot however dictate the terms of that environment.

You probably are not aware that under the same circumstances no country would negotiate anything. The stronger country would simply dictate the terms to a weaker opponent with an attitude “take it or leave it’. This is how the human history has developed so far. I do not like it anymore then you do, and I am not supporting that view, but this is a hard reality of life.

For example, - look at the reality of half of Cyprus held by Turkey, Sahara Desert held by Morocco, US natives controlled by US administration, Mexico with a loss of Texas, Crimea taken by Russian Federation, China with Tibet and Taiwan, etc. etc. There are over a hundred conflicts in the world today with unresolved land issues. In all cases, 100 percent of the time, NO negotiation is possible unless both partners have something to offer to each other. Nothing has ever been done from the ‘goodness of the heart’, as it were. It is sad and I do not like it, but that IS the way things are.

Now, - look at Israel with Palestinians. This is very different. Israelis are trying find a usable accommodation. Must they? NO! Should they? Yes!

Israelis have many options here. They can continue the status-quo. They can annex the territory. They can re-shape West Bank into reservations. There is no fear of UN or International Community, there is no fear of another war. Israel has virtually nothing to fear these days, its strategic reality is very secure. What do the Palestinians offer Israel?

You know, as funny as it sounds, Palestinians offer the end to terrorism or any form of hostilities. Does Israel need that? Not really. They can get that without any input from Palestinians. We both know how it is done. And this is EXACTLY how all other countries have done it, - direct application of military force. Israel does not do that. Israel fight small wars without decisive end. WHY? Because they want an accommodation, a deal, not a military victory. That can have military victory at any time today or 30 years ago or virtually any time in the foreseeable future.

I hope you understand now how negotiations are done from realpolitik perspective. One more thing, - please notice that no Arabs country really has any interest in Palestinian problems. Jordan will be happier with Palestinians remain exactly as they are now. Jordan does not want to absorb them. Egypt fears Palestinian based instability. Syria seas Jordan, Israel and Lebanon as apart of greater Syria, so no Palestinian State is envisioned from Syrian perspective. If Palestine were never to materialize, no Arabs country will ever lose any sleep over it.

So, - tell me, - do you understand the context of Palestinian-Israeli conflict? Bottom line is this, - from the ancient times, in order for any ethnic group to get a country, that group had always had to fight for it AND WIN! Palestinians fought and lost.

Another thing, do you really believe that the end objective for PA is to get a country next to Israel? That would be great if it were true. But it is not. All PA leaders say that it is only a first step towards an ultimate displacement of Israel by Palestine. They say it openly and in public! Arab countries do not want Israel there either, but they also do not want Palestine as a country. I hope you see the problems here…

So, - tell me, - how can Israeli negotiate in this atmosphere. And yet they want to do it!

Even if they got the entirety of the West Bankand Gaza, that'd be 22% of the Mandate of Palestine, while Israel gets 78%,almost four times as much land.

No, - you got your math all wrong. In 2000 it was proposed that both states would roughly have the same real state as it were envisioned in 1948, - that is nearly 50-50, - not exactly, but very close with a minor advantage towards Israel.

They'd agree to limitations on their sovereignty such as limits on the size of military forces, Israeli control of airspace and the outer border, Israeli military access to select areas, Israeli right to cut the West Bank in two or cut it off from Gaza at its discretion, etc, while Israel would be under no such reciprocal limits to its sovereignty, but would instead get to retain the ability to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the Earth.
Finally, the Palestinian leadership has agreed to compromise on the Palestinian refugee question, being ready to accept a cap on the number who would get to return, even though it's a fundamental human right, and thus something Israel is obliged to let them do fully and without reciprocation and in the absence of any peace treaty. Israel, naturally, isn't offering the Palestinians to waive a fundamental human right of millions of its citizens as part of a peace treaty

No, - they never agreed on anything! If they did, we’d have peace today and Palestinian State on the ground. I have no idea where you get your information. PA never agreed to sovereignty limitations, nor PA ever agreed to Israeli control of border with Jordan. PA never accepted a number of refugees proposed by Israel that may return to Israel. Let me summarize for you how impossible this conflict really is. The following is on record and in public domain:

Here are the PA and Israeli opening positions:

1) PA demands control, at a minimum, of all of East Jerusalem – while Israel requires that the entire city remain united under Israeli sovereignty.
Interestingly, - Jerusalem is not even that holy to Muslims. It is never mentioned in the Quran; it is mentioned 700 times in the Jewish holy books. No Arab leader, except Jordan’s King Hussein, ever visited Jerusalem when Arabs controlled it from 1948-67. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any country except Israel.

2) The PA demands that every Jew must be ejected from their future state, meaning the 800,000 Jews in east Jerusalem-West Bank. That will never happen.

3) PA insists that millions of descendants of Palestinian “refugees,” created by the 1948 Arab aggression against Israel, be allowed to move to Israel. Every Israeli government, from Left to Right, unequivocally rejects this, because it means overwhelming Israel with a hostile population and ending Israel as a Jewish state.

4) PA also demands a “contiguous” state that connects Gaza to West Bank, thereby cutting Israel into two separate pieces. Israel obviously cannot agree to this demand either, if Israel wishes to remain in existence.

5) PA refuses to agree to Israel’s basic demand for recognition as the Jewish state.

6) PA refuses to sign a peace deal that “ends all claims” against Israel. Israel cannot agree to any agreement that does not include such a clause.

7) PA demands that Israel must free all Palestinian-Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, regardless of offences. Of course, Israel won’t release thousands of unrepentant convicted murderers and attempted murderers.

8) With respect to security, Israel, at a minimum, must maintain control over the major Jewish communities in West Bank, and, as Netanyahu said, Israel needs “overriding security control over the entire area west of the Jordan River,” because “otherwise we’ll get another radical Islamic terrorist state in the Palestinian areas exploding the peace, exploding the Middle East.”
9) Israel requires that it continue the Gaza weapons blockade, but, the PA says it will never accept this.

10) Netanyahu explained in 2009 during his speech at Bar-Ilan University, any Palestinian-Arab state needs to be “demilitarized” – meaning that it cannot have an army, control its airspace, forge military pacts with the likes of Hezbollah and Iran, and import weapons, and must be subject to strong measures to prevent weapons smuggling. The PA opposes all of these Israeli security requirements.

Palestinian state asks Israel to give up irreversible tangibles (i.e., land) for intangible peace promises, Israel needs partners who keep their promises. But the PA broke its repeated Oslo and other agreements to combat and stop inciting terror, collect illegal weapons, outlaw terrorist groups and preserve and provide Jews access to Jewish holy sites in PA territory.

So considering how the Palestinian leadershipis still ready to make peace on such inequal terms, but Israel won't have itbut wants terms that are even more inequal in its favour, how exactly is thePalestinian leadership guilty of not being ready to compromise?

It is rather stunning that you think that PA is ready to make peace. You do know that PA walked away from peace in 2000? I would really like to see this problem solved.

If you look at what PA does, not what PA says, you plainly see that PA’s goal is to destroy and replace all of Israel with a Palestinian-Arab state that no Jews can step foot in. This goal is clearly laid out in the PA ruling party Fatah Charter and in PA President Abbas’ speeches condemning the Israeli “occupation” since 1948 – and in the PA maps, stationery, official emblems, stamps, media and atlases showing all of Israel as Palestine.

The PA leadership assures its people that any concessions it obtains are “stages” towards their final goal of destroying the Jewish state. Additionally, the PA is politically aligned with Hamas, whose charter calls for Israel’s destruction and the murder of every Jew.

I know that what I say is difficult to process. But all of what I say is on record. I do not like it any more then you do and I wish the Arabs of Palestine can have a country. Question is, - how can it happen? Please stop looking at Israel as the ONLY problem here. If you truly want two-state solution then you must recognize that Palestinians are ultimately responsible for their own actions and their goals cannot be the ONLY thing that matter.

[Futuwwa]

Ah, so Israel isn't at fault for only accepting peace on terms that are massively inequal in its favour, but the Palestinians are for demanding a peace that includes some measure of justice, rather than submit to vae victis?

It's interesting how nearly all debates on the topic sooner or later end up with the debater taking Israel's side assuming some variant of "might makes right", even if the debater started from a position of asserting that Israel has the moral high ground.

Can we thus agree and let it be established that Israel is evil and doing the Palestinians injustice?

[ethnhunt]

Ah, so Israel isn't at fault for only accepting peace on terms that are massively inequal in its favour, but the Palestinians are for demanding a peace that includes some measure of justice, rather than submit to vae victis?

Did you read my post? You know, - the one just before yours? I told you that the situation is not about Israel accepting or not accepting the peace. There is NOTHING to accept. There is no PEACE proposal worth looking at from Palestinian Authority.

I enumerated the problems that are outstanding and those problems have NO solution that Palestinians are willing accept or Israelis are willing to offer or vice versa. Both sides are so far apart, that the problem is irreconcilable at the moment.

I also described a bit, how the negotiating process is conducted. I did that so that you understand that Palestinians have a lot to lose and Israelis have little to gain if the irreconcilable problem magically becomes solvable. That means that Palestinians must compromise and Israelis must show a good will.

Stop thinking in terms of 'equal or 'unequal' negotiating terms! If you really want to advocate for an eventual Israel-Palestinian reconciliation, as I do, you must understand the reality of the situation at hand. Otherwise, one can make noise, but one will accomplish nothing.

It's interesting how nearly all debates on the topic sooner or later end up with the debater taking Israel's side assuming some variant of "might makes right", even if the debater started from a position of asserting that Israel has the moral high ground.

Look, - let's try to have a sophisticated discussion here, can we? I do not take Israeli side. It only seems that way to you, because I do not view Israel as necessarily evil nor do I view Israel as different from any other legitimate and sovereign country.

You, on the other hand, are not used to seeing Israel doing something right! But Israel does do a lot of things right. Not everything, but a lot, - certainly Israel has done more right then Palestinians ever did.

You are used to seeing Palestinians as people who are simply victims and have done NOTHING wrong. But they have done nearly everything wrong, which WHY they find themselves in this terrible predicament. It was not done to them! They did most of it themselves. Their leadership has always been incompetent. Nearly all decisions that they made in their short history, from when Arafat came from Egypt in late 1960 to start PLO until present day.

All wars they fought, they lost. All political initiatives they tried, they failed. Show me anything successful that PLO and PA has done? Even in Gaza with Hamas in power since 2005, - what do Palestinians do? They spend all their money to fight Israel and they are upset when Israel closes the border in institutes a blockade. Go figure...

Why fight Israel, Why not spend the money on building the infrastructure and be prosperous instead? Then there will be no blockade and the World, including Israel, would help. Instead they go to war. The war they can NEVER win. Try to get your head around that. If you do, then you'll understand the real motives of Palestinian Arabs. Try that for a change!

I do not advocate that 'might makes it right', - I said that all countries in the history of the planet do that, but not Israel. I hope you have a capacity to see that. If Israel were to adopt 'might makes right' principle, then there would be NO discussion about ANY Palestinian State EVER.

How can you explain the repeated offers of Palestinian statehood in 2000 with PA getting 96.7% of EVERYTHING they asked for? How do you explain another offer in 2007, with similar agenda? How do you explain an Oslo meeting in 1993 that set PA on the path of possible statehood? Israel wants an accommodation. Palestinian Authority is clearly playing games here with an agenda of displacing Israel in favor of Palestine in due time. This is clear as day. But it is not clear to you, because you used to a paradigm that says Israelis are bad and Palestinians are good. Do think about it...

Can we thus agree and let it be established that Israel is evil and doing the Palestinians injustice?

No, we can't agree on that.
Please see my comments above, and please read, if you have not yet read, my post number 59 in this thread.

[Futuwwa]

Did you read my post? You know, - the one just before yours? I told you that the situation is not about Israel accepting or not accepting the peace. There is NOTHING to accept. There is no PEACE proposal worth looking at from Palestinian Authority.

I already enumerated to you the severely inequal terms which the Palestinian Authority has accepted to make peace on. Accepted, as in, been ready to make peace on those terms. That no peace treaty materialized is because those terms were not inequal enough in Israel's favour for the deal to be acceptable for Israel. That that's what I meant should be obvious. You don't win an argument by grasping at semantical straws to create a straw man, you only

Stop thinking in terms of 'equal or 'unequal' negotiating terms! If you really want to advocate for an eventual Israel-Palestinian reconciliation, as I do, you must understand the reality of the situation at hand. Otherwise, one can make noise, but one will accomplish nothing.

You were the one asserting that the Palestinians are the ones guilty of the lack of peace due to not compromising. I rebutted that by listing how much they've been ready to concede in peace negotiations, far more than Israel ever has.

If the "reality of the situation at hand" is that the Palestinians want peace with justice, and Israel wants a peace that serves its interests and Zionist ideological aims (which would be severely compromised by providing the Palestinians justice), then that is indeed an impasse. One side is "guilty" of demanding justice, the other of denying it, how can the former be the one guilty of the impasse and not the latter?

No, we can't agree on that.

Why not? Imposing injustices on others and refusing to redress them is, generally speaking, considered evil. Tautologically, even, following from the definition.

Either you can maintain that Israel's cause and actions are just, or that might makes right and that it's just an unfortunate reality of life that the Palestinians must accept an inequal treaty due to Israel's superior bargaining power, despite the injustice in it. You can't have it both ways, though many apologists for Israel indeed try to.

Please see my comments above, and please read, if you have not yet read, my post number 59 in this thread.

I read every bit of it and decided not to take the bait and be derailed by the bag of red herrings and outlandish assertions. You're making assertions that could only be made by one who is either willfully ignorant or a liar. All the while you're accusing me of bias, something you've been unable to provide any substantiation of. Which is far from the case with you, but as I said, I chose not to take the bait. I try to stick to what's essential.

If any of what you refer back to is actually relevant for answering me, feel free to repost that specific part.

[Simple_Person]

@aaj you know what I noticed following this topic. I said something that by my definition cornered him and he did not replied to my comment. I assumed he forgot to reply. However he did the same with your comment when first saying you are biased and then suddenly you gave him links from different kind of media. I was waiting him to also reply to that...yet he suddenly drops you too and picks up a discussion only with another brother...o_O!!..I am not sure what is going on but I smell dishonesty based on this small observation.

[Khanali12]

Meanwhile muslims are too busy slaughtering each other.

[Simple_Person]

Meanwhile muslims are too busy slaughtering each other.

In a match one could say there are three participants. Team X, Team Y and the observers (ie fans, refuree, camera's..). Who does have a better view of what is going on?

A: The ones actively playing on the field on the side of team X
B: The ones actively playing on the field on the side of team Y
C: The observers (ie fans, refurees, canera's) watching the game.

Choose one of those answers AND give a objective argument why you choose what you choose.

That answer if is the right answer will also be the answer to what you just said here.

[ethnhunt]

@aaj you know what I noticed following this topic. I said something that by my definition cornered him and he did not replied to my comment. I assumed he forgot to reply. However he did the same with your comment when first saying you are biased and then suddenly you gave him links from different kind of media. I was waiting him to also reply to that...yet he suddenly drops you too and picks up a discussion only with another brother...o_O!!..I am not sure what is going on but I smell dishonesty based on this small observation.

I guess, I must apologize to you for not replying in a reasonable time. I got carried away by another discussion. Please do not think that I "... suddenly drop (you) and pick up a discussion with another brother...". Believe me there is no "... smell (of) dishonesty ..." here.

I did read your post and I felt that I already, although indirectly, replied to your points in my posts to another member here. However, if you would please re-post the points you feel I did not respond to and I'll be happy to do it.

You know, I never planned to get so engaged in a discussion on this topic. I feel no particular affinity to Israel or Palestinians. I see both of these ethnic groups as people of equal rights and responsibilities. I actually wanted to get involved in Comparative Religion discussions, as it interests me more. But, regardless , - let's carry on!

[aaj]

Israel is an apartheid state, not a superpower.

Do you even know what “…apartheid state…” is? I bet you do not! Why don’t you look it up, ok? .

I think we've established the fact here that isreal IS an Apartheid state.

And it needs to end as well as any support for that regime. All those who support it and speak in its defense support Apartheid.

[Scimitar]

Meanwhile muslims are too busy slaughtering each other.

Enjoy your ban :)

Scimi

[ethnhunt]

I already enumerated to you the severely inequal terms which the Palestinian Authority has accepted to make peace on. Accepted, as in, been ready to make peace on those terms. That no peace treaty materialized is because those terms were not inequal enough in Israel's favour for the deal to be acceptable for Israel. That that's what I meant should be obvious. You don't win an argument by grasping at semantical straws to create a straw man, you only

No, you did not enumerate anything. All you said was, and still is, that in your view the terms are "unequal". You never did "enumerate" any specifics of that 'inequality'.
I would like to challenge you to look at the Palestinians Peace proposal, that is if you can find one! I certainly am unable to find any PA-originated proposals.

What I did find was a 2002 Saudi Peace proposal, - a 10-line statements, to which PA signed off on. Is that the proposal you are referring too? I'll be happy to look at it with you and 'dissect' it, so that you, and everybody else here, get a chance to see and understand exactly what the Arabs are offering and what the Arabs are expecting in return. It is definitely "unequal", but not in a way you'd want to see it. Still...have you seen that proposal? I would not mind to read your take on it.

I, on the other hand, DID enumerate the issues in my post (#59). Those issues are real and present today. You never took the time to address those issues nor did you attemt to refute them. Again, I welcome your attempt at it.

It is self-evident that no Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty ever materialized, because Palestinians explicitly refused to have one. You see, - it is a problem, when one side in a negotiating process openly refuses to agree to a lasting peace, - that is to sign a peace deal that “ends all claims” against Israel. PA also refuses to agree to Israel’s basic demand for recognition as the Jewish state, yet PA has no problem with seeing Saudi Arabia as an official Islamic State. Those are just a few issues among many, but I feel they are important to mention here.

You were the one asserting that the Palestinians are the ones guilty of the lack of peace due to not compromising. I rebutted that by listing how much they've been ready to concede in peace negotiations, far more than Israel ever has.

Again, I saw no rebuttal. Please repost if I missed any and I'll be happy to address it. As for Palestinian compromises, which one are those? In 2000, Mr. Arafat did not offer any modifications to PA basic demands, - he did not give 'one inch', even though nearly 97% of what he asked land-wise was offered to him by Israel. The 3% broke the deal here. In 2007, Mr. Abbas met Israelis 36 times and let go of a few MINOR demands that Israel actually could leave with, which is why the meetings went to number 36.

The major demands that had to do with refugees, Jerusalem issue and lasting peace and recognition clause, he NEVER backed down on. And, - guess what?...He never showed up for the meeting number 37! He just stopped. And with that, - the entire endeavourer collapsed.

Those are the historic facts and nothing we can do about them. Still, - I welcome your input on Palestinian compromises and I'll be happy to look at what you can find.

If the "reality of the situation at hand" is that the Palestinians want peace with justice, and Israel wants a peace that serves its interests and Zionist ideological aims (which would be severely compromised by providing the Palestinians justice), then that is indeed an impasse. One side is "guilty" of demanding justice, the other of denying it, how can the former be the one guilty of the impasse and not the latter?

"Justice, justice shall you pursue...", - says Jewish Book of Old Testament. (Deuteronomy 16:20.) Believe me, the Jews know what justice is. You are confusing fairness with bargaining. What justice are you talking about? Each side has an agenda and those agendas stand in a glaring opposition. You cannot argue that Palestinian cause is ANY MORE JUST then Israeli cause. it depends which side your are on.

This is why a negotiating process is not about justice. It is about what each side is prepared to agree too. Justice you can get in Court from the judge, but a negotiation has no judge and no court.

Yes, absolutely, as you state, - "... Israel wants a peace that serves its interests and Zionist ideological aims..." This is not wrong. This IS expected. This is what ANY country would want. The problem is that PA is obsessed with getting back what they lost. But as old adage goes, - there is a price to pay for errors you make. PA does not want to pay ANY price at all. I am not even talking here about the real PA agenda, but that is another story...

Why not? Imposing injustices on others and refusing to redress them is, generally speaking, considered evil. Tautologically, even, following from the definition.

Either you can maintain that Israel's cause and actions are just, or that might makes right and that it's just an unfortunate reality of life that the Palestinians must accept an inequal treaty due to Israel's superior bargaining power, despite the injustice in it. You can't have it both ways, though many apologists for Israel indeed try to.

Indeed, you can't have it both ways. However, this is not about justice at all. This is about an agreement that both sides may find agreeable. To understand that process, you must understand what drives both sides. I do not see that you understand this at all.

Do you see how the average Israeli reasons this conflict out? I guarantee you that an average Israeli completely understand how average Palestinians thinks. I certainly understand both sides on reasonably sophisticated level, which is why I have no illusions about what PA is willing to live with and why PA did not want to sign the deal in 2000 or 2007. Do you? Do you understand the issues?

I read every bit of it and decided not to take the bait and be derailed by the bag of red herrings and outlandish assertions. You're making assertions that could only be made by one who is either willfully ignorant or a liar. All the while you're accusing me of bias, something you've been unable to provide any substantiation of. Which is far from the case with you, but as I said, I chose not to take the bait. I try to stick to what's essential.

I never had any desire to bait you. I am sorry if you feel that way. Please know that I am being very sincere. I welcome your views on Saudi-PA proposed peace. Let's discuss it. It is extremely relevant, because just 2 days ago, there was an Arab summit, where Mr. Abbas, re-affirmed PA commitment to that Plan. So, - it stands to reason, that this is THE Peace Plan that PA is going with. Please look at and let's talk about it. You'll see that the enumeration of the issues as seen in y post (#59) are still with us.

[ethnhunt]

I think we've established the fact here that isreal IS an Apartheid state.

And it needs to end as well as any support for that regime. All those who support it and speak in its defense support Apartheid.

No, - YOU DID NOT ESTABLISH ANYTHING. What you did do in your post (#57) is to quote from several newspapars and news networks and UN on this topic. In order to establish what you set out to do, you must conform Israeli legal practicies to the definitin of apartheid. You did not do that. The UN link you provided does claim apartheid in Israel, but that declaration was voted on by the majority of Arab States and voted against or abstained by the rest of the World. So nobody in Israel or in the West are worried about it. Here is what I think on this topic:

"The treatment of Arabs by the State of Israel cannot be compared in any way to the treatment of the black majority in South Africa under apartheid. There is no Israeli ideology, policy or plan to segregate, persecute or mistreat the Arab population.


Apartheid was a uniquely repressive system, through which South Africa’s white minority enforced its domination over the black and other non-white racial groups who made up more than 90 percent of the population. Apartheid – which means “separate development” in the Afrikaans language – was put into effect through a systematic framework of racist legislation imposing strict segregation, including laws which banned blacks from “white areas,” prevented blacks and whites from marrying or even having sexual relations with each other, and which regulated the education of black children in accordance with their “subservient” social position. The regime imposed “Bantustans,” impoverished autonomous homelands whose borders were designed to exclude economically viable land, upon 12 million black South Africans.


No such laws exist in Israel, which in its Declaration of Independence pledges to safeguard the equal rights of all citizens. Arab citizens of Israel enjoy the full range of civil and political rights, including the right to organize politically, the right to vote and the right to speak and publish freely. Israeli Arabs and other non-Jewish Israelis serve as members of Israel’s security forces, are elected to parliament and appointed to the country’s highest courts. They are afforded equal educational opportunities, and there are ongoing initiatives to further improve the economic standing of all of Israel’s minorities. These facts serve as a counter to the apartheid argument, and demonstrate that Israel is committed to democratic principles and equal rights for all its citizens.


To be sure, Palestinians in the West Bank and in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip do encounter hardships as a result of Israeli policies, including checkpoints, access into Israel, the security barrier and other issues. However, these procedures and structures have been developed to promote security and thwart potential terrorist action, not to persecute or segregate.


Finally, divestment and boycott campaigns singularly demonize Israel and designate Israel for pariah status, while ignoring other states, including many in the Middle East, which systematically abuse human rights. If anti-Israel divestment and boycott activists were truly interested in aiding Palestinians and promoting Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation, they would advocate constructive initiatives between Israelis, Palestinians and others. Unfortunately, most of these activists ignore such initiatives, and focus solely on bashing Israel and promoting punitive actions against the state. Indeed, former South African Constitutional Court Justice Richard Goldstone wrote in a New York Times op-ed that accusing Israel of apartheid “is an unfair and inaccurate slander against Israel, calculated to retard rather than advance peace negotiations.”"

[aaj]

No, - YOU DID NOT ESTABLISH ANYTHING. What you did do in your post (#57) is to quote from several newspapars and news networks and UN on this topic. In order to establish what you set out to do, you must conform Israeli legal practicies to the definitin of apartheid. You did not do that. The UN link you provided does claim apartheid in Israel, but that declaration was voted on by the majority of Arab States and voted against or abstained by the rest of the World. So nobody in Israel or in the West are worried about it. Here is what I think on this topic:
"

You are in denial and delusional, attempting to defend a terrorist regime and an apartheid state by your feeble logic. You are welcome to support such regimes and defend them all you like, you are among the minorities that we don't care for. Inshallah this regime will come down one day, that is a promise.

Actual UN Report: https://www.scribd.com/document/342220531/UN-ESCWA-report-on-Israeli-apartheid#

[ethnhunt]

You are in denial and delusional, attempting to defend a terrorist regime and an apartheid state by your feeble logic. You are welcome to support such regimes and defend them all you like, you are among the minorities that we don't care for. Inshallah this regime will come down one day, that is a promise.

Actual UN Report: https://www.scribd.com/document/342220531/UN-ESCWA-report-on-Israeli-apartheid#

All I can say to is this, - ARE YOU EVEN REMOTELY SERIOUS? I am amazed you chose the report from Social Council for Western Asia (ESCWA) to show how bad Israel is. This report was compiled by Richard Falk. Have you even read this report? I did. But I am sure you did not. It sounds like something from Monty Python comics with its unending accusations without merit.

Are you even aware that this report was commissioned by the UN Economic and Social Council for Western Asia (ESCWA) consisting of eighteen Arab states: Bahrain, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, The Sudan, The Syrian Arab Republic, Tunisia, The United Arab Emirates and Yemen? How many of these despotic regimes are committed to negotiating peace with justice?

In fact, ESCWA, itself, imposes apartheid on Israel, which is a UN member state located in western Asia, but excluded from ESCWA membership (which includes Sudan, Libya, and Tunisia which are African.). LOL!

It’s impossible to take Mr. Falk seriously. The sad reality is that Falk has no interest in real peace nor does he have any concern for the Palestinian people who suffer either under the brutal Hamas military theocracy in Gaza or inept and incompetent Mr. Abbas and friends. It is so much easier to take the easy way out and ignore the massive meltdown in the Arab world by pinning all blame on Israel.

Mr. Falk is a die-hard throwback to the days of Marxism-Leninism and he would never bother trying to solve the Palestinian’s problems when he can simply blame everything on the Zionists. In his worldview, it doesn’t matter if Palestine is yet another brutal Arab dictatorship that abuses its citizens – his goal is to get rid of Israel.

Let me say a few words about the so-called Palestinian land that is so dear to Mr. Falk. The reality is that Jews purchased private land in a country ruled by the Ottoman Turks and then the British, without displacing a single Arab, and where Arabs were living without the remotest thought of exercising sovereignty. Do you understand what that means? That is right, nobody had identity papers at the time. The Turks did not care, so the Arabs and the Jews lived wherever they wanted!

The reality is that both the Arabs and the Jews subsequently claimed sovereignty over the same land. The UN proposed a compromise in 1948. The Jews accepted it, the Arabs rejected it and invaded Israel with the declared aim of destroying it and massacring its population. The reality is that 20 years later Jordan initiated a war against Israel and, as a consequence, Israel occupied the West Bank and remained there because the Arabs refused to end the conflict.

The word ‘apartheid’ was specifically defined to describe a specific situation. No one has given Mr. Falk the license to redefine it. You and Mr. Falk will have to find another word, as hard as it is to let go of it. The word you would probably use, if “apartheid” hadn’t become one of the dirtiest words in the language and therefore irresistibly tempting to apply to loathsome Israel, is “discrimination.”

When you think of Israeli ‘discrimination’ against Palestinians, do understand that it doesn’t even reach the proportions of the discrimination against the Kurds wherever they have lived, or the Copts in Egypt, for example, or the Jews in Muslim countries.

Do understand that in Israel, the Arabs eat in the same restaurants as Jews, travel on the same buses and trains, use the same public spaces, are treated in the same hospitals as Jews, treat Jews in these hospitals as doctors and nurses, serve as lawyers and judges in Israel’s legal system, teach and study in the universities, serve in the Parliament.

With regard to the occupation of the West Bank, it is a military occupation and nothing else, oppressive in proportion to terrorist activity, which would be dealt with in precisely the same way whether the settlements existed or not.

Here is my legal take on the report by Mr. Falk, - under International Law, Israel as the victorious belligerent of the 1967 “Six Day War,” may retain captured land until possession is modified by peace treaty. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uti_possidetis
(Latin: As you possess, you may continue to possess)

The Post World War II occupations of the Axis powers ended with peace treaties. When, and if, Palestinians want this “occupation” to end, they will negotiate for it!

Resolving the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, as with all conflicts, requires that each participant examine its role in perpetuating the discord with an eye toward introducing moderation while, at the same time, seeking points of commonality with its adversary on which to build cooperation and mutual understanding. The report that Mr. Falk wrote, which is utterly one-sided and escalates the verbal warfare to an unprecedented toxicity, runs contrary to virtually everything known and written about conflict resolution.

The report is seeking to de-legitimize Israel and making it a pariah state, which clearly is the report’s objective. Indeed, implementing its recommendations, explicit and implied, would drown Israel in a floodtide of refugees, cripple its economy, and add more tumult to an already dangerously tumultuous Middle East. Implementation of this report will end Isarel as a country! Do you get that? You would, if you read the report!

It’s axiomatic among experts who do conflict resolution that the process applied to the task has a large impact on the results. It’s virtually impossible that peaceful co-existence between Jews and Palestinians under any structural format could emerge from the destabilization, dislocation and hostile chaos that are the inevitable consequence of the approach the report urges.

This report ignores or dismisses Israeli peace proposals over the years, as well as the substantial forces inside Israel and in Jewish communities throughout the world, and especially the United States, where many strongly oppose how IDF deals with Palestinians.

Regardless, - Palestinians must overcome the ideological and political schism that divides their body politic into mutually hostile camps, and build a consensus that will enable them to come to the negotiating table with a single, united voice able to make commitments that will be honored by all Palestinian factions. The report, which puts the total blame on Israel, militates against this and therefore blatantly unfair and cannot be taken seriously by anybody who wants to solve this conflict.

All I can say to you, - please think before you post.

[Futuwwa]

No, you did not enumerate anything. All you said was, and still is, that in your view the terms are "unequal". You never did "enumerate" any specifics of that 'inequality'.
I would like to challenge you to look at the Palestinians Peace proposal, that is if you can find one! I certainly am unable to find any PA-originated proposals.

What I did find was a 2002 Saudi Peace proposal, - a 10-line statements, to which PA signed off on. Is that the proposal you are referring too? I'll be happy to look at it with you and 'dissect' it, so that you, and everybody else here, get a chance to see and understand exactly what the Arabs are offering and what the Arabs are expecting in return. It is definitely "unequal", but not in a way you'd want to see it. Still...have you seen that proposal? I would not mind to read your take on it.

I, on the other hand, DID enumerate the issues in my post (#59). Those issues are real and present today. You never took the time to address those issues nor did you attemt to refute them. Again, I welcome your attempt at it.

It is self-evident that no Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty ever materialized, because Palestinians explicitly refused to have one. You see, - it is a problem, when one side in a negotiating process openly refuses to agree to a lasting peace, - that is to sign a peace deal that “ends all claims” against Israel. PA also refuses to agree to Israel’s basic demand for recognition as the Jewish state, yet PA has no problem with seeing Saudi Arabia as an official Islamic State. Those are just a few issues among many, but I feel they are important to mention here.



Again, I saw no rebuttal. Please repost if I missed any and I'll be happy to address it. As for Palestinian compromises, which one are those? In 2000, Mr. Arafat did not offer any modifications to PA basic demands, - he did not give 'one inch', even though nearly 97% of what he asked land-wise was offered to him by Israel. The 3% broke the deal here. In 2007, Mr. Abbas met Israelis 36 times and let go of a few MINOR demands that Israel actually could leave with, which is why the meetings went to number 36.

The major demands that had to do with refugees, Jerusalem issue and lasting peace and recognition clause, he NEVER backed down on. And, - guess what?...He never showed up for the meeting number 37! He just stopped. And with that, - the entire endeavourer collapsed.

Those are the historic facts and nothing we can do about them. Still, - I welcome your input on Palestinian compromises and I'll be happy to look at what you can find.

You ask me to refute the assertions you make about what the facts of the Arab-Israeli conflict are, talking about them as if they were indisputable historical facts. Meanwhile, when I make assertions, you simply wave them away as untrue.

I will not consent to discuss the matter based on the premise that you get to dictate anything you say as fact, and that anyone who disagrees with what the facts are has the burden of proof. Nor should anyone else.

Also, if you actually want the discussion to lead somewhere, I suggest you start treating the other participants as equals and operate on a premise of mutual rationality and good faith. Not on the premise that we are brainwashed and that you should educate us.

"Justice, justice shall you pursue...", - says Jewish Book of Old Testament. (Deuteronomy 16:20.) Believe me, the Jews know what justice is. You are confusing fairness with bargaining. What justice are you talking about? Each side has an agenda and those agendas stand in a glaring opposition. You cannot argue that Palestinian cause is ANY MORE JUST then Israeli cause. it depends which side your are on.

Red herring. There is neither a singular "Palestinian cause" nor "Israeli cause", nor agenda. Both populations are agglomerations of people with varying and layered wants, which is why any faction within either side trying to engage in a peace process is constrained by the internal politics and internal disagreements within that side.

As for what constitutes justice, here are your words:

You know, I never planned to get so engaged in a discussion on this topic. I feel no particular affinity to Israel or Palestinians. I see both of these ethnic groups as people of equal rights and responsibilities. I actually wanted to get involved in Comparative Religion discussions, as it interests me more. But, regardless , - let's carry on!

If both groups are of equal rights, it would follow that a just peace is one based on the premise that both groups have an equal right to the land, that neither should get more than the other, or get anything the other doesn't get in equal measure. From that, it would follow that if either side attempts to force an inequal outcome on the other, it is guilty of committing injustice, no?

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update. Interesting perspective.

Ken O'Keefe Exposes the Zionist Plan for the Middle East

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

Lecture by Norman Finkelstein: 50 years of occupation – What now?



Noam Chomsky: Why Trump Is Likely to Care Less About Palestinians Than Any Other President to Precede Him

[سيف الله]

Salaam

A look into the origins of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Well done.

[ethnhunt]

[QUOTE=Junon;2961114]Salaam

Another update

Lecture by Norman Finkelstein: 50 years of occupation – What now?


I viewd the lecture by Finkelstein with interest. Still, - he says that Israel had no reason to attack Egypt, unless its been a diversion to simply capture Jerusalem, Golan and West Bank. In other words it was an expansionist move by Israel. Everybody knew that in any war Israel would win in a few days, so...sure...Isarel is a bad guy here. Finkelstein is being a demagogue, as he conveniently forgets or simply decides not to mention the issue of the Straits of Tiran! Egypt closed Straits of Tiran!

In May 1967, Israeli Prime Minister Mr. Eshkol repeated declarations that Israel had made in 1957, saying that closure of the Straits of Tiran would be an act of war. Egypt then blockaded the straits on May 22, 1967, and oil tankers that were due to pass through the straits were required to submit documents ensuring their cargo was not destined for an Israeli port.At that time, Israel viewed the Straits of Tiran as a vital interest as it is where Israel received vital imports, mainly oil from Iran, and a blockade threatened Israel's ability to develop the Negev and it cut the oil from being delivered to Israel, threatening its economy and its very existence. It was an existential threat to Israel. This is WHY Israel went to war, not because it could win, not becase it wanted West Bank or Golam or Jerusalem. Finkelstein knows this, but he does not say it, becase his agenda is to de-legitimize Israeli existence. He speaks of occupation. But it was the Arabs that brought about the need for occupation. It was not due to Israeli belligerence. It was due to Egyptian and Syrian and later Jordanian aggressive posture that forced Israel to act. The capture of land was the price that the Arabs had to pay. For many years Israel offered to return the land in exchange for peace.. It did so in 1979 returning Sinai to Egypt. Jordan washed its hands off West Bank as King Husein declared. And Palestinian Arabs under PLO and now PA have no desire to negotiate with Israel, as history records. Palestinian Arabs say NO to ALL offers that Israel made in the past 20 years.

Finkelstein know all this all too well, but he chooses not to look at hard facts. Occupation has been around for 50 years now and the longer we wait the more it becomes permanent. Do understand that Israel has claims to that land, - very good and substantive claims. Palestinian Arabs already have a country, - its Jordan. So, - in the absents of any negotiation posture from PA, Israel may annex Area C and put an end any dream of independent Palestine. I think that is exactly how it will go down, if Palestinians do not act in their best interest and negotiate with Israel instead of demanding what they can never have, - the East Jerusalem, the return of refugees and Israeli retreat to the boundaries of 1948. Negotiations presume a compromise, - and the Arabs have yet to show an understanding of what that realty means.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Oh more Israeli hasbra, thats what this forum really needs.

Its interesting how the hasbra operations have developed over the decades, first Palestinians never existed, then the fake peace process. to mask Israeli true goals.





Now that the propoganda and rhetoric has been exposed they've thrown off the mask and accellerating with the end game.

[ethnhunt]

Salaam

Oh more Israeli hasbra, thats what this forum really needs.

Its interesting how the hasbra operations have developed over the decades, first Palestinians never existed, then the fake peace process. to mask Israeli true goals.

Now that the propoganda and rhetoric has been exposed they've thrown off the mask and accellerating with the end game.

What are you talking about? The videos you posted clearly show how bankrupt the Palestinian political position really is. Mr. Dershowitz does have a point!

To wit, the term 'Palestinian' came into existence in the early 1960s with arrival of Yasir Arafat from Egypt. Before that the Arabs of British Palestine called themselves Jordanians, as they had Jordanian passports and many still do.

The peace process is not dead. But peace on whose terms? What do the Palestinians want? I know and we all know that they want to replace Israel with a new country - Palestine. So, - as along as they want this, and they do not hide this by the way, no peace is possible. OK?

[AbdurRahman.]

What are you talking about? The videos you posted clearly show how bankrupt the Palestinian political position really is. Mr. Dershowitz does have a point!

To wit, the term 'Palestinian' came into existence in the early 1960s with arrival of Yasir Arafat from Egypt. Before that the Arabs of British Palestine called themselves Jordanians, as they had Jordanian passports and many still do.

The peace process is not dead. But peace on whose terms? What do the Palestinians want? I know and we all know that they want to replace Israel with a new country - Palestine. So, - as along as they want this, and they do not hide this by the way, no peace is possible. OK?

no probs mate the Mahdi is coming to sort you lot out!:

Abu Sa'id al-Khudari^(RA) narrated that the Prophet^(SAW) said:

Our Mahdi will have a broad forehead and a pointed (prominent) nose. He will fill the earth with justice as it is filled with injustice and tyranny. He will rule for seven years.
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, p. 208; Fusul al-muhimma, p. 275)

[ethnhunt]

no probs mate the Mahdi is coming to sort you lot out!

I appreciate the strength of your convictions. I think that it is commendable that you feel the way you do.

I agree that justice will prevail. You may wait for Mahdi, and I am sure he is coming...but the Jews are also waiting and the Christians are waiting too.

So far nobody came, but the people are suffering. Is it not better to solve the problem while we all wait?

All must have justice, not just "...your lot, mate..." Get it?

[Futuwwa]

Finkelstein know all this all too well, but he chooses not to look at hard facts. Occupation has been around for 50 years now and the longer we wait the more it becomes permanent. Do understand that Israel has claims to that land, - very good and substantive claims. Palestinian Arabs already have a country, - its Jordan. So, - in the absents of any negotiation posture from PA, Israel may annex Area C and put an end any dream of independent Palestine. I think that is exactly how it will go down, if Palestinians do not act in their best interest and negotiate with Israel instead of demanding what they can never have, - the East Jerusalem, the return of refugees and Israeli retreat to the boundaries of 1948. Negotiations presume a compromise, - and the Arabs have yet to show an understanding of what that realty means.

Brothers and sisters, pay attention. Israel's alleged legitimate claims matter, but Palestinian legitimate claims don't, then all that matters then is what it's allegedly in the Palestinians' interest to concede for their own good.

This is the mark of a scam artist with an agenda. He simultaneously advances two, mutually exclusive positions, as long as both serve his purpose. That, while spending this thread going in and out, answering posts when he thinks he can score rhetorical points, but dodging as soon as he finds himself unable to answer in a way that doesn't support his agenda here.

I will start downrepping his posts, and I encourage others to do the same in order to get him banned. I say that as someone who has opposed such collective downrep bannings in the past.

[ethnhunt]

Brothers and sisters, pay attention. Israel's alleged legitimate claims matter, but Palestinian legitimate claims don't, then all that matters then is what it's allegedly in the Palestinians' interest to concede for their own good.

This is the mark of a scam artist with an agenda. He simultaneously advances two, mutually exclusive positions, as long as both serve his purpose. That, while spending this thread going in and out, answering posts when he thinks he can score rhetorical points, but dodging as soon as he finds himself unable to answer in a way that doesn't support his agenda here.

I will start downrepping his posts, and I encourage others to do the same in order to get him banned. I say that as someone who has opposed such collective downrep bannings in the past.

What??? What are you talking about??? When did I EVER say that Palestinian Arabs do not have legitimate claims? You are making this up. Stop it! All people in the Land of former British-mandated Palestine have LEGITIMATE CLAIMS. All people, - the Jews the Muslims and the Christians too. Fair?

I said that the Palestinian Arabs agenda does not include living next to Israel. Their agenda calls for eventual replacement of Israel with a new country, - Palestine. The Palestinian leadership does not really hide this. Hamas says it outright. However, - Mr. Abbas, as a head of PA, does not say it, but he absolutely behaves as if he actually says it.

Look at PA negotiating posture towards Israel! LOOK AT IT AND WEAP! PA demands nothing less than an absolute and eventual demise of Israel as a state, as a MINIMUM prerequisite to the opening of the negotiating process. This is a fact! Look at what the PA teaches kids at their schools! Their textbooks glorify murder of Jews and call for the conquest of the entire former British Palestine. Listen to the sermons in Mosques in the West Bank where the calls for violence are done every week. Look at the polls conducted over the years that show that the majority of Palestinian Arabs have been conditioned to believe that one day the Jews will either depart of be pushed away into the sea.

Are you even remotely aware that Israel routinely offers settlement deals to PA? In 2000 Israel offered 97% of what Mr. Arafat was demanding and Arafat said NO! Same thing happened in 2007 with Mr. Abbas. They were the deals of the century and the Arabs did not take them! WHY? …One reason only, - the Arab agenda is not to negotiate. PA has not EVER reduced their demands, even a little bit. It is ALL OR NOTHING with them. At the minimum Israel stops existing! DO YOU GET IT?

How can you possibly accuse me of unfair attitude towards Palestinians? How dare you to call me a “…scam artist…”.

Palestinian Arabs legitimate claims must center on what they lost in 1968, nothing more! What they lost is not a country. They never had a country to lose.

Palestinian Arabs must not be angry at the Israelis, they must be angry at the Jordanians. It was Jordan that captured the land of Palestine in 1948 and kept it to itself, until Israel kicked the Jordanians out in 1967, AFTER Jordan conspired with Egypt and Syria to attack Israel. Why is that the Jordan NEVER set up the state of Palestine in the West Bank as UN intended in 1948? Why Palestinian Arabs never complained about it until 1967. They were very happy to live under Jordanian administration. It was only when Israel took over, the Palestinian Arabs started screaming about their rights to form their own state.

It is crystal clear to all who can think in a logical fashion that Palestinian Arabs and Jordanian Arabs are the same people. They have no desire to negotiate with Israel. When Palestinian Arabs lived in Jordanian West Bank they were happy. But they do not want to live under Israeli rule and Jordan does not want then either.

So, - their legitimate claims is to get compensated for that lost in 1968, - nothing more. If they want a country, then they must negotiated with Israel. So far they have no appetite for that. Negotiating presumes a compromise that both parties must be prepared to make. Israelis have shown a great deal of compromises here, - look up the offer in 2000 as an example. What compromises have the Arabs shown? NOTHING! Take a look at Saudi Peace Plan of 2002 that PA indorsed and you will see that it calls for Israel to commit suicide. Great plan!

Anyway, - you are a demagogue and sophist and you have no understanding of the complexities of the Palestinian-Israeli crisis. I can support everything I say with logic and facts. Can you do the same? The glove is thrown, - pick it up if dare.

[Futuwwa]

Anyway, - you are a demagogue and sophist and you have no understanding of the complexities of the Palestinian-Israeli crisis. I can support everything I say with logic and facts. Can you do the same? The glove is thrown, - pick it up if dare.

As they say in Internet gaming, gr8 b8 m8

Whereas in this actual thread, you're the one who ignored my latest reply to you (nr 73, as it happens), much like you have done with much everyone else here, then you come back later and spam the same talking points with which you opened. My conclusion in my last post stands, and so does my call to get you kicked out by downrepping your posts. If you intend to convince me otherwise, you will have to make a demonstration of good faith, which includes but is not limited to treating people with a basic level of respect.

[anatolian]

We dont want Israel to commit suicide but want them not to commit genocide.

[ethnhunt]

…you're the one who ignored my latest reply to you (nr 73, as it happens), much like you have done with much everyone else here, then you come back later and spam the same talking points with which you opened. My conclusion in my last post stands, and so does my call to get you kicked out by downrepping your posts. If you intend to convince me otherwise, you will have to make a demonstration of good faith, which includes but is not limited to treating people with a basic level of respect.

WOW! Is that all? Let’s see here…, - you call me a “..scam artist…”, whereas I called you a “demagogue and sophist”. Who is disrespectful here? I ignored your last post (#73) because you said absolutely nothing worth replying too. You just ‘speak’ for the sake of speaking, with no substance, so I did not reply. You made no “conclusion’ in your last post. However, do not just take my word for it. Let’s look together at your last post, you know…the one you mention here, - number 73.

You ask me to refute the assertions you make about what the facts of the Arab-Israeli conflict are, talking about them as if they were indisputable historical facts. Meanwhile, when I make assertions, you simply wave them away as untrue.

Great stuff! What assertions are those? Where are they? Certainly nothing here as we can see.

I will not consent to discuss the matter based on the premise that you get to dictate anything you say as fact, and that anyone who disagrees with what the facts are has the burden of proof. Nor should anyone else.

Well, - please bring your own facts! But you do not do that. You just ‘talk’ about doing it. I, on the other hand, substantiate everything I wrote. Please do point out, any, I do mean, ANY point that I raised in this thread that is not based on fact. I challenge you to do that!

We all have a burden of proof upon us, - you and me. I am good with that. Please, - you are free to argue anything and attempt to disprove anything that I wrote, and indeed the proof will be upon me to deliver. Anytime m8te! But you do not argue anything! You just accuse and slander. Methinks you have nothing to say. Common…prove me wrong!

Also, if you actually want the discussion to lead somewhere, I suggest you start treating the other participants as equals and operate on a premise of mutual rationality and good faith. Not on the premise that we are brainwashed and that you should educate us.

Very well. I am sorry that you feel that way. But I fail to see where have I ever shown a lack of “…mutual rationality and good faith…’. Please point me at that direction!

There is neither a singular "Palestinian cause" nor "Israeli cause", nor agenda. Both populations are agglomerations of people with varying and layered wants, which is why any faction within either side trying to engage in a peace process is constrained by the internal politics and internal disagreements within that side.

Really? No agenda??? Both the PA and Israel disagree with you. You want proof? Here it is, - the political platforms for both entities are published!!!! Look it up!

Well, - the PA agenda is only one page long, but Israelis pretty much wrote a book. Look up Clinton parameters of year 2000. You know, - what Arafat did not agree too. Sure, he was only offered 97% of what he was asking for, - not good enough, right!

“…agglomerations of people with varying and layered wants…”. Perhaps you are talking about the Palestinian Arab side. Certainly the Israelis are talking with a unified voice coming out from their Government. The Arabs, on the other hand, can’t agree on virtually anything.

Within PA , there are several factions with diametrically opposed views on how to proceed to deal with Israel. Hamas is totally different from all PA faction to boot. There “agglomerations of people” on the Arab side, but there are none on Israeli side. What Israel has is a number of different parties and organizations that disagree with the Government, but they DO NOT speak for the country.

What are you trying to say here? Are you telling me that PA disagrees with Israel? We all know that. If they were to agree we’d not have this mess. You are stating the obvious. Why don’t you think about how to solve this mess instead? It is infinitely more difficult to do that, than simply to appear that you understand the problem.

If both groups are of equal rights, it would follow that a just peace is one based on the premise that both groups have an equal right to the land, that neither should get more than the other, or get anything the other doesn't get in equal measure. From that, it would follow that if either side attempts to force an inequal outcome on the other, it is guilty of committing injustice, no?

No. I do not think that PA is an equal to Israel. Israel is a sovereign state with developed economy and infrastructure, while PA leads people with no country and economy. However, that aside, let’s assume for a moment that they are equal. So, it is now simple to solve the conflict, right? Arabs get what they want and the Jews get what they want, right? Is that what you are saying? Hmm…it’d be great if that were possible. What do the Arabs want? I asked you to enumerate that, - but you never did. Perhaps you do not know. So, - I did that for you (post #59). Did you read that post?

The awful truth is that PA has so far rejected ALL offers that were made by Israel in an effort to solve this conflict. It is a fact and not just my words. Would you like a poof or you are going to accuse me of ‘scamming’ you? Google the offers made to PA by Israel in 2000, commonly known as Clinton Parameters. Google the offer made in 2007. Google the agreement of 1993.

Read the data and after you are done, try to find anything emanating from PA as a counterproposal. All you will find is a Saudi Peace Plan of 2002, - a one page document, asking Israel to take a number of steps that would lead to its demise as a country, in other words, asking Israel to commit suicide. That Plan was approved by PA. Need I say more? Or you would ask me to post the relevant links? Do it yourself! But do not accuse me of stating anything without substance.

Anyway, - I just went through your post #73. What do we have here? You say nothing. You propose nothing. You solve nothing. You show no understanding of complexities of issues, nor do you show any depth of carrying out a discussion. Surely, we do not have a discussion here, as you do not contribute at all. But you sure do accuse and threaten. Here are the points for the record that I made in my previous post #59. You may Google any of them to see the historical and factual proof of fact. All of the points below are a fact. I challenge you to focus on any of them and dispute it! Do it! As they say in Internet gaming, consider yourself gr8tly b8ted, m8!

The following is on record and in public domain:
Here are the PA and Israeli opening negotiating positions:

1) PA demands control, at a minimum, of all of East Jerusalem – while Israel requires that the entire city remain united under Israeli sovereignty.
Interestingly, - Jerusalem is not even that holy to Muslims. It is never mentioned in the Quran; it is mentioned 700 times in the Jewish holy books. No Arab leader, except Jordan’s King Hussein, ever visited Jerusalem when Arabs controlled it from 1948-67. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any country except Israel.

2) The PA demands that every Jew must be ejected from their future state, meaning the 800,000 Jews in East Jerusalem-West Bank must leave. That will never happen.

3) PA insists that millions of descendants of Palestinian “refugees,” created by the 1948 Arab aggression against Israel, be allowed to move to Israel. Every Israeli government, from Left to Right, unequivocally rejects this, because it means overwhelming Israel with a hostile population and ending Israel as a Jewish state.

4) PA also demands a “contiguous” state that connects Gaza to West Bank, thereby cutting Israel into two separate pieces. Israel obviously cannot agree to this demand either, if Israel wishes to remain in existence.

5) PA refuses to agree to Israel’s basic demand for recognition as the Jewish state.

6) PA refuses to sign a peace deal that “ends all claims” against Israel. Israel cannot agree to any agreement that does not include such a clause.

7) PA demands that Israel must free all Palestinian-Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, regardless of offences. Of course, Israel won’t release thousands of unrepentant convicted murderers and attempted murderers.

8) With respect to security, Israel, at a minimum, must maintain control over the major Jewish communities in West Bank, and, as Netanyahu said, Israel needs “overriding security control over the entire area west of the Jordan River,” because “otherwise we’ll get another radical Islamic terrorist state in the Palestinian areas exploding the peace, exploding the Middle East.”
9) Israel requires that it continue the Gaza weapons blockade, but, the PA says it will never accept this.

10) Netanyahu explained in 2009 during his speech at Bar-Ilan University, any Palestinian-Arab state needs to be “demilitarized” – meaning that it cannot have an army, control its airspace, forge military pacts with the likes of Hezbollah and Iran, and import weapons, and must be subject to strong measures to prevent weapons smuggling. The PA opposes all of these Israeli security requirements.

Palestinian state asks Israel to give up irreversible tangibles (i.e., land) for intangible peace promises, Israel needs partners who keep their promises. But the PA broke its repeated Oslo and other agreements to combat and stop inciting terror, collect illegal weapons, outlaw terrorist groups and preserve and provide Jews access to Jewish holy sites in PA territory.

No sane person or a country will ever agree to what PA is asking. Has PA ever soften its position? No, never! What does it tell you? It can only mean one thing, - PA has no desire to negotiate.

Please, - do try to show how wrong I really am or how much do I really spam. In fact, I wish I were wrong, because then, if I were, we would have a hope for peace.

[ethnhunt]

We dont want Israel to commit suicide but want them not to commit genocide.

Indeed, I do agree with you. I assure you that nobody in Israel would ever commit genocide.

[Futuwwa]

u mad?

In my first post to you, where I contested your assertion that the Palestinian Authority is the party that isn't compromising, I mentioned what broad terms it has been ready to accept in a peace treaty, despite those terms being severely inequal. You rejected my statement as untrue out of hand, and said essentially "No, this is the PA position...". So we disagree on what the facts are. You act as you just get to wave away my assertions on what the facts are with a hand-wave, while I have to prove any of your assertions wrong, or keep googling until I find out that you are right. If I call you out for expecting to carry out the discussion under such rules, I'm obviously not going to continue the discussion until we have that sorted out. You didn't even think my calling-out of you warranted a reply.

If you wonder where you've shown a lack of respect, reread your posts. You keep belitting others' knowledge and understanding of the subject, telling them they only think the way they do because they've been taught about it in a biased way, etc. You act like you're here to educate us poor brainwashed troglodytes, not carry out a symmetric two-way discussion.

My assessment of you is largely unchanged. If you want to continue, you will have to eat a healthy dose of humble pie and persuade me you're worth my time. I have nothing to gain from winning a debate against you, it very much seems like any audience we have is already agreeing with me. You, on the other hand, seem very eager to engage me, from how hard you try to bait me. How about you take your own advice that you oh-so-helpfully offer the Palestinians, i.e. accept that your bargaining position sucks and need comply with the demands of the stronger party (that would be me) or get nothing of what you want?

[anatolian]

Indeed, I do agree with you. I assure you that nobody in Israel would ever commit genocide.

Maybe we cant talk about a "massive" massacre compressed in a short period as we saw in the past events of mankind but Israel's deliberate Palestinian massacre extended to a long period is "almost" a genocide. They seek to kill as much Palestinian as they can in each conflict. So, "somebody" in Israel is commiting it.

[keiv]

So, "somebody" in Israel is commiting it.

That somebody, who have no shame murdering people, is the "Jewish State of Israel" as they like to be referred as.

[ethnhunt]

u mad?

I am not.

In my first post to you, where I contested your assertion that the Palestinian Authority is the party that isn't compromising, I mentioned what broad terms it has been ready to accept in a peace treaty, despite those terms being severely inequal. You rejected my statement as untrue out of hand, and said essentially "No, this is the PA position...". So we disagree on what the facts are.

I looked through the thread. I do not see where you mentioned that PA is ready to either negotiate or agree to anything that Israel proposed. If I missed it, please repost with my apologies.
Now, - back to the mundane…Here is a link from World Security Network

(https://www.worldsecuritynetwork.com...ting-Positions)

They simply re-post the data available from diplomatic sources with rather neutral commentaries. Kind of raw data if you will. So, - their material is not skewed to one side or another. You can simply go to the link I posted if you wish, but I will quote from that source below for your convenience. Before I do that, I would like to tell you that it was you who asked for proof. Well, - here it is!



“This is a quick, brief guide to the negotiating positions of Israel's government and the Palestinian Authority (PA).

Israeli Negotiating Position

Two-State Solution: Israel accepts a two-state solution--including an independent Palestinian state-only under conditions it believes would lead to real and lasting peace.
It is a myth that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu only recently accepted this goal or did so only under U.S. pressure. In fact, he agreed to this as an outcome of negotiations in 1996.

Israel has put forward five conditions:

· Recognition of Israel as a Jewish state. Without this step, the aftermath of any "peace" agreement would be additional decades of Arab effort to destroy Israel in all but-temporarily-name.

· Absolute clarity that a peace agreement ends the conflict and all claims on Israel. Otherwise, the Palestinian leadership and much of the Arab world would regard any "peace" agreement as license for a new stage of battle using Palestine as a base for renewed attacks and demands.

· Strong security arrangements and serious international guarantees for them. Have no doubt; these will be tested by cross-border attacks from Palestine.

· An unmilitarized Palestinian state (a better description than "demilitarized"), with the large security forces already existing: enough for internal security and defense but not aggression.

· Palestinian refugees must be resettled in Palestine. The Palestinian demand for a "Right of Return" is just a rationale for wiping Israel off the map through internal subversion and civil war.

The PA basically rejects all of these conditions. While the first one-"Jewish state"-is debatable, the rest are obviously reasonable.

Issues to be decided in negotiations

In addition to these points, other issues under negotiation are less specifically delineated. The main issues are:

· Jerusalem: Israel's general position has been that Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel and cannot be divided. However, previous governments have offered most or almost all of east Jerusalem to a Palestinian state. Unless the Palestinians make a very positive offer it is unlikely that the current government turn over all or most of east Jerusalem, yet is should be noted that the previous governments referred to were headed by Ehud Barak who is the coalition partner.

· Future of Settlements: It is likely that Israel would agree to dismantle all settlements in areas that became part of a Palestinian state (see borders, below)

· Borders: There is no one specific plan but the basic framework discussed is that the Palestinian state would get 92 to 96 percent of the West Bank with the offer of additional land to be traded to bring the total given up to the area of the West Bank captured by Israel in 1967. This is vital or strategic reasons (for example, a small portion of the main Tel Aviv-Jerusalem road crosses the line) as well as the concept of settlement blocs.

Settlement blocs refers to the Israeli idea that by annexing a small portion of the West Bank, say 3-5 percent, near the border and relatively uninhabited by Palestinians, Israel can bring a very large proportion of settlers into the country. This would not only have a strategic value, strengthening the border, but also muster a great deal of popular support for the painful concessions needed to make peace. Most of the construction on settlements is in these areas. By stopping the construction, the United States seems to be arguing for a precise return to the pre-1967 borders, thus damaging support for other concessions in Israel, though U.S. policymakers seem completely ignorant of these issues.

· Compensation: The Palestinian side would probably hear receive tens of billions of dollars in compensation for property confiscated after 1948. There is no discussion of any compensation for Jews displaced in Arab countries or pre-1948 landowners whose property would become part of a Palestinian state.

Palestinian Authority Negotiating Position

This is rather simple: Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, allows any Palestinian refugees who wish to go to live in Israel (Right of Return), and that's about it. There is no offer whatsoever on such things as end of conflict, security guarantees, or limits on the sovereignty of a Palestinian state (can form military alliances, invite in foreign troops, have whatever military it wishes, etc.)

Moreover, the alternative PA negotiating position is not more flexibility or compromise but the threat to go to armed struggle and to advocate openly a one-state solution (which may be its goal anyway), that is the subsuming of Israel into a Palestinian Arab Muslim state, the basic proposal made by the PLO in the 1960s.

How does the PA hope to get a state when it is unwilling to compromise? Simple, it expected the U.S. government and Europe to press Israel into giving it everything it wants.

The Day after Effect, Nothing Can Go Wrong Syndrome

Western and Arab policymakers often speak as if there will be a peace agreement and that's the end of history. No more war, no more conflict, nothing can go wrong. Israeli policymakers must be more careful and certain that mechanisms are built into any agreement that will ensure it continues.

Why should a state without serious conditionality be given a Palestinian regime which has failed to govern competently, continued anti-Israel incitement, is profoundly corrupt, has already lost half its patrimony to a more extremist rival, is subject to influence by radical states, etc.

After all, it is easy to come up with realistic-even highly likely-scenarios for what could happen:

· Cross-border attacks from Palestine against Israel carried out either by Hamas and other Islamist oppositionists or by factions or even mainstream Fatah cadre. The Palestine government would declare itself unable to stop the attacks, deny they came from its territory, or blame Israel. To argue that a weaker Palestine would not allow such things given its self-interest neglects large portions of Middle East history when such things have happened.

· Overthrow of the new regime by a more radical group or faction. The government of Palestine would then have all the benefits of statehood and previous Israeli concessions without any intention to live up to prior commitments.

· A government of Palestine, even one which has signed a peace agreement, could embark on a Stage 2 strategy, which is after all what much of its ideology and key documents advocate, to complete Israel's destruction.

· A Palestine government could be subverted by radical regimes (at present, Syria and Iran) or it could obtain advanced weapons from Arab states or Iran, or even invite in foreign troops.

In the face of these and other scenarios, Israel always has a war option. But how much could it depend on the United States and Europe to enforce a peace agreement or support its defensive efforts? Precedent isn't encouraging. Moreover, as a sovereign state, Palestine would have very advantageous options, for example going to the UN where a Muslim-Arab bloc backed by others would declare Israel the aggressor no matter what had happened.

The bottom line is this: Israel would be worse, not better, off agreeing to such arrangements than it is now.

Are Things So Terrible Now?

Those insisting on peace at any price - for Israel that is-often employ two conflicting arguments. On the one hand they claim that Israel is so strong that it can give concessions without receiving equivalent ones, or so weak that it must do so. Yet the country simply does not desperately need a deeply flawed "solution" to be grabbed either out of misplaced "generosity" or "fear."

This is true because Israel is the stronger party, it has (or can obtain) control over the land in question, and it can resist external pressure both because it is likely to be fairly low and the stakes for Israel's survival are so high.

Another mistaken conception is that the status quo is intolerable and that any change would be for the better. Yet more risks, concessions, and the establishment of an unstable and hostile Palestinian state--the most likely outcome at present--would make things worse.

Equally wrong is the notion that time is against Israel, a strong and vibrant society surrounded by weak, disorganized neighbors. Israel's strategic situation has dramatically improved over the decades. It is a strong, confident society visibly meeting the challenge of the modern economic and technical environment.

But what about the Palestinians? They are certainly suffering. Are their leaders desperate to get a state as quickly as possible and thus willing to be flexible? On the contrary, the history of the PLO, Fatah, and the PA under both Yasir Arafat and Mahmoud Abbas show they are in no such hurry at all. They would rather wait decades than give up the option of total victory in future. They also hope that external pressure will win the day for them. Thus, the worse things are, the better is their situation.”



I do hope that you take a moment and read the above. This is reality, this is not fluff. I did dismiss your assertions out of hand as you so eloquently stipulate, for a simply reason, which is, - you are wrong.

My assessment of you is largely unchanged. If you want to continue, you will have to eat a healthy dose of humble pie and persuade me you're worth my time. I have nothing to gain from winning a debate against you, it very much seems like any audience we have is already agreeing with me. You, on the other hand, seem very eager to engage me, from how hard you try to bait me. How about you take your own advice that you oh-so-helpfully offer the Palestinians, i.e. accept that your bargaining position sucks and need comply with the demands of the stronger party (that would be me) or get nothing of what you want?

I understand, believe me …I do. The article above that I posted is reflective of the conflict we are discussing. It is crystal clear from that article, and I can post many others from unaffiliated ‘think-tanks’ if you wish, that PA negotiating position is as I stated in my posts here in this thread, - is completely hopeless. PA has no desire to negotiate. PA’s rejectionism is self-evident and glaring from PA’s actions. Yes, - I blame PA for the collapse of the peace process.

I do understand that you do not like what I wrote, but what I wrote does not change reality on the ground. I do hope that you will find within your worldview a measure enabling you to see facts for what they are and not for what you want them to be. It is unfortunate, but PA negotiating position is totally bankrupt. Palestinians are not getting anywhere under their present leadership.

I see a gradual annexation of Area C, as a minimum, by Israel as a real possibility in the next 50 years. I also see that Palestinian Arabs may even support that move, as it will give them economic stability that they can never have under PA leadership.

[ethnhunt]

Maybe we cant talk about a "massive" massacre compressed in a short period as we saw in the past events of mankind but Israel's deliberate Palestinian massacre extended to a long period is "almost" a genocide. They seek to kill as much Palestinian as they can in each conflict. So, "somebody" in Israel is commiting it.

Alright...so you say Israel has already committed genocide.

Perhaps it is a good idea for you to look up an available data on how many Palestinian Arabs have been killed by Israeli forces since 1948. Sounds fair? Why don't you take a look on the net and post here the results. Also, while you are at it, find out how many Israelis died in this conflict and post for all to see. Please also note the circumstances of how the casualties happen.

We will see if you are correct in your assertions...or not.

Please note, that Israel, as a stronger party, can completely annihilate anybody in the area, but somehow it has not happened. Genocidal tendencies or behavior would suggest otherwise...don't you think?

[Zafran]

One way or another the Palestinians are not going anywhere - Right now Israel is occupying Palestine - the settlements show Israel wants to take most of the land and leave the palestinans scraps. It has no intention of living in peace. It shows day by day as Palestinian land is taken inch by inch day by day.

[Zafran]

Please note, that Israel, as a stronger party, can completely annihilate anybody in the area, but somehow it has not happened. Genocidal tendencies or behavior would suggest otherwise...don't you think?

Uncle sam will not be happy if Israel committed genocide - or the international community for that matter. Nobodies buying your propaganda you know that right - The EU, China and entire international community has condemned Israel - Israel just doesn't heed. Israel has to live with Palestine one way or another.

[anatolian]

Alright...so you say Israel has already committed genocide.

Perhaps it is a good idea for you to look up an available data on how many Palestinian Arabs have been killed by Israeli forces since 1948. Sounds fair? Why don't you take a look on the net and post here the results. Also, while you are at it, find out how many Israelis died in this conflict and post for all to see. Please also note the circumstances of how the casualties happen.

We will see if you are correct in your assertions...or not.

Please note, that Israel, as a stronger party, can completely annihilate anybody in the area, but somehow it has not happened. Genocidal tendencies or behavior would suggest otherwise...don't you think?

Millions https://sites.google.com/site/palestiniangenocide/

I think its your duty to mention the Israeli casualities. Genocide was an intended exeggeration. But the general Israeli behaviour in these conflicts since their establishment shows us that killing more Palestinians was always one of their intentions each time. That was more dramatic at the beginning. How do you define Ariel Sharon's massacres in the 50s?

[Futuwwa]

I do hope that you take a moment and read the above. This is reality, this is not fluff. I did dismiss your assertions out of hand as you so eloquently stipulate, for a simply reason, which is, - you are wrong.

Nope. You are wrong. Therefore, I dismiss your assertions out of hand.

Got a problem with that? Well, that's what you've been doing to me this entire time. Only now you're trying to provide actual evidence, after all this time, without admitting any wrongdoing. On the contrary, you defend your previous actions, even as you assert that we all have an equal burden of proof. That's cute.

I do understand that you do not like what I wrote, but what I wrote does not change reality on the ground. I do hope that you will find within your worldview a measure enabling you to see facts for what they are and not for what you want them to be.

What did I tell you about respect?

[ethnhunt]

Nope. You are wrong. Therefore, I dismiss your assertions out of hand.

Got a problem with that?

Problem? Nor really…Here is the difference between us, - I dismissed your assertions, while providing you with reasons for my statements and supporting those reasons with ample evidence. I provided you with an article from a rather neutral political think-tank to support my view and refute yours. I substantiated my points in a logical and consistent manner. I challenged you to at least attempt to support your views.

Well, - you didn’t and you clearly couldn’t. All you did, is to say that you simply “…dismiss {my} assertions out of hand…” No reason given. No evidence supplied. You are all ‘talk’ and no substance. However ‘talk’ is cheap!

Got a problem with that?

Well, that's what you've been doing to me this entire time. Only now you're trying to provide actual evidence, after all this time, without admitting any wrongdoing. On the contrary, you defend your previous actions, even as you assert that we all have an equal burden of proof. That's cute.

The burden of proof is incumbent upon BOTH OF US! I did my part! I provided an argument and supported my views. You did not! Yet you talk 'BIG". That's cute.

What did I tell you about respect?

Yes, you made it crystal clear that you need respect. I do respect you. I have nothing against you.

Your views however, are another matter. If you want me to ‘respect’ you views, then provide substance for them, otherwise you are asking for an unreasonable accommodation.

I do hope that you understand…Please think about it…

[ethnhunt]

Millions https://sites.google.com/site/palestiniangenocide/

I think its your duty to mention the Israeli casualities. Genocide was an intended exeggeration. But the general Israeli behaviour in these conflicts since their establishment shows us that killing more Palestinians was always one of their intentions each time. That was more dramatic at the beginning. How do you define Ariel Sharon's massacres in the 50s?

Look, in order to be taken seriously you should try to get your information from as neutral of a source as possible. What did you do? You quote from a site that is totally and completely biased towards Palestinian Arabs agenda. The data on that site is not believable by any reasonable person. According to what you posted, there were more Arab dead then the number of people that actually lived in the area in question. According to you, there were millions of dead!!!!! Why not billions? Common, even you should admit that this is beyond funny.

Look at the list of contributors to that site you quoted from, - AHMADINEJAD, Mahmoud, BARGHOUTI. Omar, CASTRO, Fidel, CHAVEZ, Hugo, FALK, Richard, KLEIN, Naomi, PAPPÉ, Ilan, etc. to name a few. Among them, many are Holocaust deniers, advocates for the wholesale annihilation of Israel and murder of Jews. Nearly all of them are die-hard Marxist-Leninists by their own admission. Really, - you picked Great contributors to prove your point, - Mr. Castro is my favorite, along with Mr. AHMADINEJAD and Mr. Chaves.

All you had to do, is to look at Wikipedia entry to see what the truth really is. While not perfect, but it is clearly a better source then what you posted. But you did not do that! If you did, you’d quickly discover how bankrupt your views really are.

The Palestinian Arab dead are numbering at about 78,000 from 1860 on! Israeli dead are less at about half that. Many of Arab dead are the result of Arab on Arab violence. Here is alink for you, -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...ualties_of_war

If you want to ‘see’ genocide, - look at African conflicts, look at what Nazis did from 1933 till 1945, look at what the Turks did to Armenians!

Also, Mr. Sharon, as controversial as he was, was never directly accused by any court anywhere in the world. In his book he denied the accusation as frivolous that had no prove. Times Magazine did accuse him. He took them to court in the US and won! Further, - no reputable historian or publication EVER accused him of any crimes. He was accused by people and organisations that had clear agenda against his policies. OK?

Please rethink your position.

[ethnhunt]

... Israel has to live with Palestine one way or another.

A agree! Perhaps you should tell that to PA. Israelis would gladly live with the Arabs. They do already, - 1.8 million Arabs live in Israel. They vote and are generally happy.

Mr. Abbas, as a head of PA, does not want any Jew to live in Palestine, by his own admission! What do you make of that?

[ethnhunt]

One way or another the Palestinians are not going anywhere - Right now Israel is occupying Palestine - the settlements show Israel wants to take most of the land and leave the palestinans scraps. It has no intention of living in peace. It shows day by day as Palestinian land is taken inch by inch day by day.

Please read my post, #91 in this thread. Perhaps, you might change your mind.

[Futuwwa]

The burden of proof is incumbent upon BOTH OF US! I did my part! I provided an argument and supported my views.

Yeah, you did that NOW (or rather, attempted to, which is what counts). After not having done so for, what, three pages? Without any admission of wrongdoing for not having done so to begin with, but instead, a defence of your former behaviour in this thread.

Yes, you made it crystal clear that you need respect. I do respect you. I have nothing against you.

Your views however, are another matter. If you want me to ‘respect’ you views, then provide substance for them, otherwise you are asking for an unreasonable accommodation.

And yet, whenever someone disagrees with you in this thread, you act on the assumption that and readily express the notion that we must be having the beliefs and opinions that we do because of ignorance, biased background or because have are being taught in a certain way, while you pose and assume the position of impartial rationality. That condescending, lecturing attitude is unacceptable. Your distinction between respecting persons and respecting views becomes irrelevant when you start treating people in a certain way and making certain assumptions about them as persons on the basis of the views they hold.

[anatolian]

Look, in order to be taken seriously you should try to get your information from as neutral of a source as possible. What did you do? You quote from a site that is totally and completely biased towards Palestinian Arabs agenda. The data on that site is not believable by any reasonable person. According to what you posted, there were more Arab dead then the number of people that actually lived in the area in question. According to you, there were millions of dead!!!!! Why not billions? Common, even you should admit that this is beyond funny.

Look at the list of contributors to that site you quoted from, - AHMADINEJAD, Mahmoud, BARGHOUTI. Omar, CASTRO, Fidel, CHAVEZ, Hugo, FALK, Richard, KLEIN, Naomi, PAPPÉ, Ilan, etc. to name a few. Among them, many are Holocaust deniers, advocates for the wholesale annihilation of Israel and murder of Jews. Nearly all of them are die-hard Marxist-Leninists by their own admission. Really, - you picked Great contributors to prove your point, - Mr. Castro is my favorite, along with Mr. AHMADINEJAD and Mr. Chaves.

All you had to do, is to look at Wikipedia entry to see what the truth really is. While not perfect, but it is clearly a better source then what you posted. But you did not do that! If you did, you’d quickly discover how bankrupt your views really are.

The Palestinian Arab dead are numbering at about 78,000 from 1860 on! Israeli dead are less at about half that. Many of Arab dead are the result of Arab on Arab violence. Here is alink for you, -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...ualties_of_war

If you want to ‘see’ genocide, - look at African conflicts, look at what Nazis did from 1933 till 1945, look at what the Turks did to Armenians!

Also, Mr. Sharon, as controversial as he was, was never directly accused by any court anywhere in the world. In his book he denied the accusation as frivolous that had no prove. Times Magazine did accuse him. He took them to court in the US and won! Further, - no reputable historian or publication EVER accused him of any crimes. He was accused by people and organisations that had clear agenda against his policies. OK?

Please rethink your position.

Something doesn't become false just because it is spoken by Marxists or Islamists. Those people you mentioned were all brave enough guys to say something for the issue. If you don't like them you can listen to Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein as well. Both are jews.

So it is thousands but not millions..Does it change so much thing? Genocidal behaviours of the Israeli army caused all those Palestinian casualities.

[ethnhunt]

Yeah, you did that NOW (or rather, attempted to, which is what counts). After not having done so for, what, three pages? Without any admission of wrongdoing for not having done so to begin with, but instead, a defence of your former behaviour in this thread.




And yet, whenever someone disagrees with you in this thread, you act on the assumption that and readily express the notion that we must be having the beliefs and opinions that we do because of ignorance, biased background or because have are being taught in a certain way, while you pose and assume the position of impartial rationality. That condescending, lecturing attitude is unacceptable. Your distinction between respecting persons and respecting views becomes irrelevant when you start treating people in a certain way and making certain assumptions about them as persons on the basis of the views they hold.

What are you talking about? You just like to talk without saying anything, do you?
Look at what YOU DO! You complain that your views are disrespected, yet you do not support anything that you attempt to say. Its like Wild West with you, - you shoot from the heap.

Yes, you are being 'lectured' because you have no idea what you are saying, - so I tell you what the issues are, - they are, - an absolute rejection by Palestinian Authority of ANY peace proposal by Israel, time and time again. PA does not want to live next to Israel, yet PA complaints of mistreatment. Sounds familiar? It is a lot like what you do, - you do not talk about issues, do not engage in a discussion or debate, yet you complain that your views are not respected! Funny...

If you can't support you views or do not understand the issues involved, then have courage to admit it. Believe me, I will not think less of you...

[ethnhunt]

Something doesn't become false just because it is spoken by Marxists or Islamists. Those people you mentioned were all brave enough guys to say something for the issue. If you don't like them you can listen to Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein as well. Both are jews.

So it is thousands but not millions..Does it change so much thing? Genocidal behaviours of the Israeli army caused all those Palestinian casualities.

Sure, - Communists are people too! However their views have not accomplished a great deal. Being a Marxist-Leninist today is not a crime, but those ideas are totally bankrupt, - and that is a historic fact. This is the reason I dismissed the contributors to that site from which you quoted.

As for Chomskiy and Finkelstein, - not a single reputable academic in the World takes them seriously, - check it out for yourself. When was the last time any of them lectures in a reputable school or a conference unless invited by a fringe group? Do you know that according to Noam Chomsky, the controversy that surrounded Finkelstein's research caused a delay in his earning his Ph.D. at Princeton University. Chomsky wrote in Understanding Power that Finkelstein "literally could not get the faculty to read[his dissertation]" and that Princeton eventually granted Finkelstein his doctorate only "out of embarrassment [for Princeton]" but refused to give him any further professional backing.

Finkelstain says that he can't get a job anywhere, because of his views “... I’m down to two countries. One is Turkey. The other is Iran."

Being a Jew is not a prove of anything.

Further, I showed you that you have no idea what the definition of the word 'genocide' is. I showed to you that Israel has never committed genocide. I gave you the figures to support what I said. I indicated to you the examples of genocide.

Why do you insist on a line of reasoning that you cannot support?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you ethnhunt;

so I tell you what the issues are, - they are, - an absolute rejection by Palestinian Authority of ANY peace proposal by Israel

This is not surprising when you see the map of Palestine in 1946, compared to the map of Israel today. The Palestinians have been squeezed out. And here are some quotes from Israeli prime ministers and a general, they don't sound too peaceful........


I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.

Ariel Sharon


I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him.

Ariel Sharon

Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us…

Ariel Sharon

Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.

Moshe Dayan

Our American friends offer us money, arms, and advice. We take the money, we take the arms, and we decline the advice.

Moshe Dayan

What cause have we to complain about their fierce hatred to us? For eight years now, they sit in their refugee camps in Gaza, and before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their forefathers have lived.

Moshe Dayan

I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?

David Ben-Gurion

Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.

David Ben-Gurion

The Arabs of the land of Israel [ Palestinians] have only one functionleft to them -- to run away.

David Ben-Gurion

The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.

Menachem Begin


Our policy is very simple. The Jewish state was set up to defend Jewish lives, and we always reserve the right to defend ourselves.

Benjamin Netanyahu

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

[ethnhunt]

Greetings and peace be with you ethnhunt;



This is not surprising when you see the map of Palestine in 1946, compared to the map of Israel today. The Palestinians have been squeezed out. And here are some quotes from Israeli prime ministers and a general, they don't sound too peaceful........

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

Hello Eric, and may peace be with you too! There are many problems here with what you posted, - I shall address them.

If you look at the map of Palestine in 1946, you would see the map of British-mandated land, not Israel. That Land was partitioned by UN's decision of 1947, - in a 49-51 split. It was not Israelis who "squeezed" the Arabs out of their 49%, - it was Jordan.

It was Jordan that gained control of that land through the act of aggression against Israel in 1948. It was Jordan that kept the West Bank to itself with absolutely no desire to give that land to the Palestinian Arabs as UN clearly decreed. Please notice that no Palestinian Arab EVER complained about it, because those Arabs saw themselves as Jordanians anyway and had Jordanian passports, and many still do today.

The talk of 'liberation of Palestine' started when Yassir Arafat arrived from Egypt to fight both the Israelis and Jordanians. He started PLO to do that. He fought both with no success. He attacked Jordan in 1970 and had thousands killed in an effort to depose King Hussein and set up a Marxist Arab State.

Anyway, Israel is not at fault here. Arabs, who called themselves Palestinians, were in 1948 hostile to Israel and many fought on the Jordanian side. Today they are seen by Israel as still hostile population. The number of peace deals have been offered to them over the past 30 years. Some deals offered them 97% of the land that they would have had in 1947. The Arabs always said NO! No, to ANY deal that was offered? WHY? The answer is simple, - they want the Jews out. They want Israel to disappear. Why would they agree, if their long term plan is to keep the entire British-mandated Palestine to themselves.

Today Israel questions the original UN partition, stating that there is no way to divide up the land as envisioned in 1948 and maintain peace. Furthermore, Israels position is that Jordan is already a Palestinian country and the West Bank is an ancestral Jewish Land of Judea and Samaria. Israel claims historic rights to West Bank. History supports the Jewish claim. If Arabs do not come to the negotiating table they will lose it all.

As for the quotes you posted, - well...all the quotes by Ariel Sharon are complete fabrication and was debunked a long time ago. Actually I read his book and his speeches and never seen those quotes either.

Same can be said about your quotes by Dayan, - a complete fabrication. Two quotes by Ben-Gurion are fabrications, but the other one (last) I am not sure and about. I did read similar sentiments in his speeches. I would have to check that. Your quotes by Begin and Netanyahu are factual but they need context and better translation.

Would you please post the site from where you got those quotes.

...best

[Futuwwa]

What are you talking about? You just like to talk without saying anything, do you?
Look at what YOU DO! You complain that your views are disrespected, yet you do not support anything that you attempt to say. Its like Wild West with you, - you shoot from the heap.

Yes, you are being 'lectured' because you have no idea what you are saying, - so I tell you what the issues are, - they are, - an absolute rejection by Palestinian Authority of ANY peace proposal by Israel, time and time again. PA does not want to live next to Israel, yet PA complaints of mistreatment. Sounds familiar? It is a lot like what you do, - you do not talk about issues, do not engage in a discussion or debate, yet you complain that your views are not respected! Funny...

If you can't support you views or do not understand the issues involved, then have courage to admit it. Believe me, I will not think less of you...

And I've told you time and again that I'm not going to continue the discussion, to "pick up the gauntlet" as you put it, as long as there are unresolved issues pertaining to how you expect this discussion to be conducted. I have tried to explain it to you, in as clear terms as I can, but you are either unable to understand or pretend not to for whatever rhetorical purpose.

I am perfectly capable of supporting my views and understand the issues involved. You will treat me according to that premise, and then we can proceed. Take it or leave it. I have done you the courtesy of the very same, even though I have every reason to make the very same kind of assumptions about you that you have made about me (and indeed I have made about you, but kept private, while you have been overtly disdainful of me). Over the course of this thread, you have made some of the most fantastically absurd assertions regarding the raw facts of the Arab-Israeli conflict, ones that I have simply shaken my head at in disbelief as they have been irrelevant to the very specific points we have argued about.

[ethnhunt]

I am perfectly capable of supporting my views and understand the issues involved. You will treat me according to that premise, and then we can proceed. Take it or leave it.

Very well...I'll take it! Please, consider this as an attempt on my part to 'treat' you as might expect. Let's proceed...shall we?

I have done you the courtesy of the very same, even though I have every reason to make the very same kind of assumptions about you that you have made about me (and indeed I have made about you, but kept private, while you have been overtly disdainful of me).

OK...'mea culpa'! I really do not mind...'meeting' you in the middle.

Over the course of this thread, you have made some of the most fantastically absurd assertions regarding the raw facts of the Arab-Israeli conflict, ones that I have simply shaken my head at in disbelief as they have been irrelevant to the very specific points we have argued about.

So...you do not like my 'assumptions'. You think they are "...fantastically absurd ...". I understand. At you leisure, I'll be pleased to 'look' at any and all "absurdity" that I am responsible for. Please state for the record, exactly WHAT 'assumptions' are in question here and HOW 'absurd' they are. Methinks it is only fair...

[AbdurRahman.]

A agree! Perhaps you should tell that to PA. Israelis would gladly live with the Arabs. They do already, - 1.8 million Arabs live in Israel. They vote and are generally happy.

Mr. Abbas, as a head of PA, does not want any Jew to live in Palestine, by his own admission! What do you make of that?

what would you think of morocco if they dropped a nuke on 'israel' and wiped out 5 million jews?

bear in mind they look after a big jewish community in their country really well :Emoji51:

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Some Americans in high up position get it.


I'd Dump the Israelis Tomorrow --Ex-CIA Michael Scheuer Tells Congress



Internal Jewish politics

This is a clip of Norman Finkelstein's two appearances in Yoav Shamir's documentary "Defamation".

[Futuwwa]

Very well...I'll take it! Please, consider this as an attempt on my part to 'treat' you as might expect. Let's proceed...shall we?

OK...'mea culpa'! I really do not mind...'meeting' you in the middle.

Alright. I frankly didn't expect you to come around, but maybe you did.

So...you do not like my 'assumptions'. You think they are "...fantastically absurd ...". I understand. At you leisure, I'll be pleased to 'look' at any and all "absurdity" that I am responsible for. Please state for the record, exactly WHAT 'assumptions' are in question here and HOW 'absurd' they are. Methinks it is only fair...

Alright, I can do that. Some time ago, you claimed to be able to back up every assertion you've made in this thread with facts and logic, and challenged anyone to disprove even a single assertion made. Does that challenge still stand as originally stated?

[ethnhunt]

what would you think of morocco if they dropped a nuke on 'israel' and wiped out 5 million jews?

bear in mind they look after a big jewish community in their country really well :Emoji51:

Wow! We are into nukes now? ...not sure if Morocco has nukes. Regardless, nuclear weapons are not real weapons, - they are more of a political tools. They can never be used with any hope of getting away with it.

Furthermore, any nation state, as sophisticated as Israel is, will definitely have a priory knowledge of any impending attack and will preempt it with a devastating force if need be.

One can think of only North Korea these days that just might be suicidal enough and crazy enough to try something like what you suggest. Clearly, North Korea will seize to exist as sad as it sounds. And also, in your improbable and fantastic scenario so will Morocco.

Morocco is the only Arab country today that has a Jewish community worth talking about. It used to be that the Jews lived in 10's if not 100's of thousands all over the Middle East. No more...The were all kicked out with from all Arab countries in 1950s and 1960s. They left behind their possessions, their real-estate, their bank accounts, often leaving with a suitcase in hand only. Quite an end to a thousands of years of existence, predating Muslims and Christians. Israel absorbed 600,000 Jews from Arab countries.

Anyway, I see no point to your comments...not sure what you are trying to say.

[ethnhunt]

Salaam

Some Americans in high up position get it.


I'd Dump the Israelis Tomorrow --Ex-CIA Michael Scheuer Tells Congress

Internal Jewish politics

This is a clip of Norman Finkelstein's two appearances in Yoav Shamir's documentary "Defamation".

LOL, - those Americans are not in high positions!

I am not sure what is the point of the videos you posted? Would you care to explain? Mr. Finkelstein is a discredited demagogue. He works in Turkey now. He can't get a job in any respectable university or a think tank.. Nobody takes him seriously. His PH.D thesis was granted to him in order to get rid of him. It was never published and is an embarrassment to all intelligent people. He is a laughing stock in history circles. he gets invited by fringe group with clear antisemitic agenda, because nobody else or no other institution wants him.

Furthermore, we all know who Michael Scheuer is. He does not like Israel and he does not like the Jews. he is a typical antisemite. He says so himself. It is his right. Who cares...What I don't understand is this, - what are you trying to say?

[ethnhunt]

Alright. I frankly didn't expect you to come around, but maybe you did.

...no problem.

Alright, I can do that. Some time ago, you claimed to be able to back up every assertion you've made in this thread with facts and logic, and challenged anyone to disprove even a single assertion made. Does that challenge still stand as originally stated?

Yes!

[Futuwwa]

Right, I'll do that when I have the time. Properly replying probably takes more time than usual.

[anatolian]

As for Chomskiy and Finkelstein, - not a single reputable academic in the World takes them seriously, - check it out for yourself. When was the last time any of them lectures in a reputable school or a conference unless invited by a fringe group? Do you know that according to Noam Chomsky, the controversy that surrounded Finkelstein's research caused a delay in his earning his Ph.D. at Princeton University. Chomsky wrote in Understanding Power that Finkelstein "literally could not get the faculty to read[his dissertation]" and that Princeton eventually granted Finkelstein his doctorate only "out of embarrassment [for Princeton]" but refused to give him any further professional backing.

Finkelstain says that he can't get a job anywhere, because of his views “... I’m down to two countries. One is Turkey. The other is Iran."

The only reason why he is "down to" Turkey or Iran is because all those reputable universities who discredite him are dominated by the zionist loby. You can hardly find in America a zionist-free university. I gave you his example because you reject others automatically as Marxists. Now you say being Jew doesnt prove anything. So I assume you will reject anyone who condemns Israel regardless of their ideological path or ethnicity or religion.

[ethnhunt]

Right, I'll do that when I have the time. Properly replying probably takes more time than usual.

..no problem. take all the time you need.

[ethnhunt]

The only reason why he is "down to" Turkey or Iran is because all those reputable universities who discredite him are dominated by the zionist loby. You can hardly find in America a zionist-free university. I gave you his example because you reject others automatically as Marxists. Now you say being Jew doesnt prove anything. So I assume you will reject anyone who condemns Israel regardless of their ideological path or ethnicity or religion.

LOL! So, - now you hide behind the conspiracy theories! Sure...all good schools in US are Zionists! You are funny...if you must know ALL good schools in US are leftist in political orientation and extremely liberal. Check out their ratings!

Nobody wants Finkelstein because his scholarship is bogus and his historical accounts are revisionists. He invents things as he goes or neglects things he does not like. No respected academic wants anything to do with him, - so he is teaching in Turkey, - the only place his views are welcomed.

Look, - here is an example for you...Finkelstein says that Israel attacked Egypt in 1967 because...well, - no reason really, because Israel is aggressive!

Finkelstein conveniently never mentions that Nasser closed waterway of Tiran, thereby attempting to choke Israeli economy. This was a reason for war. Egypt was warned as early as 1956 that if Tiran is closed, Israel goes to war. So, - Finkelestein does not like that, and so... he does not mention it. This is NOT scholarship. This is ridiculous!

So, - nobody can take Filkenstein seriously. I can show you other 'pearls' of his scholarship is you want, there are many, as he does not disappoint. He really should be a stand up comedian for the historically inclined. No wonder his Ph.D thesis was laughable and never printed.

[anatolian]

LOL! So, - now you hide behind the conspiracy theories! Sure...all good schools in US are Zionists! You are funny...if you must know ALL good schools in US are leftist in political orientation and extremely liberal. Check out their ratings!

Nobody wants Finkelstein because his scholarship is bogus and his historical accounts are revisionists. He invents things as he goes or neglects things he does not like. No respected academic wants anything to do with him, - so he is teaching in Turkey, - the only place his views are welcomed.

Look, - here is an example for you...Finkelstein says that Israel attacked Egypt in 1967 because...well, - no reason really, because Israel is aggressive!

Finkelstein conveniently never mentions that Nasser closed waterway of Tiran, thereby attempting to choke Israeli economy. This was a reason for war. Egypt was warned as early as 1956 that if Tiran is closed, Israel goes to war. So, - Finkelestein does not like that, and so... he does not mention it. This is NOT scholarship. This is ridiculous!

So, - nobody can take Filkenstein seriously. I can show you other 'pearls' of his scholarship is you want, there are many, as he does not disappoint. He really should be a stand up comedian for the historically inclined. No wonder his Ph.D thesis was laughable and never printed.

Can you show me a single example of a western academic who condemns Israel but not targeted by the general academic enviroment?

Same thing happened to Roger Garaudy. He was a Communist who backs up Israel in France but when he changed his opinions and became a prominent critic of Israel he got disowned by the Fench academic and intellectual enviroment who are dominated by the zionist propoganda. Thats not consipiracy, thats the reality..

[AbdurRahman.]

Wow! We are into nukes now? ...not sure if Morocco has nukes. Regardless, nuclear weapons are not real weapons, - they are more of a political tools. They can never be used with any hope of getting away with it.

Furthermore, any nation state, as sophisticated as Israel is, will definitely have a priory knowledge of any impending attack and will preempt it with a devastating force if need be.

One can think of only North Korea these days that just might be suicidal enough and crazy enough to try something like what you suggest. Clearly, North Korea will seize to exist as sad as it sounds. And also, in your improbable and fantastic scenario so will Morocco.

Morocco is the only Arab country today that has a Jewish community worth talking about. It used to be that the Jews lived in 10's if not 100's of thousands all over the Middle East. No more...The were all kicked out with from all Arab countries in 1950s and 1960s. They left behind their possessions, their real-estate, their bank accounts, often leaving with a suitcase in hand only. Quite an end to a thousands of years of existence, predating Muslims and Christians. Israel absorbed 600,000 Jews from Arab countries.

Anyway, I see no point to your comments...not sure what you are trying to say.

it was just an example as your saying basically the same thing; israel gets along with arabs ,,, yeah sure they do after they've murdered thousands of Palestinians!

[Abz2000]

Those secularist zionist lgbt marching jews should be given half of england and america and not the holy land which is not theirs to give - since the governments of england and america claim to be sympathetic to them




























Palestinian woman shot dead trying to stab Israeli police, officials say

Woman said to be mother of man killed by Israeli police last year was reportedly trying to stab officers with scissors when she was shot


Agence France-Presse in Jerusalem


Wednesday 29 March 2017 18.25 BSTLast modified on Wednesday 29 March 201718.40 BST


A Palestinian woman said to be the mother of a man killed last year attempted to stab Israeli police officers with scissors at the entrance to Jerusalem’s Old City on Wednesday before being shot dead, officials said.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-officials-say

[Abz2000]

GOD'S Sure Judgment on Jerusalem


1Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me to the gate of the house of theLord that faces east. There at the entrance of the gate were twenty-five men, and I saw among them Jaazaniah son of Azzur and Pelatiah son of Benaiah, leaders of the people.
2The Lord said to me, “Son of man, these are the men who are plotting evil and giving wicked advice in this city.
3They say, ‘Haven’t our houses been recently rebuilt? This city is a pot, and we are the meat in it.’

New Living Translation
They say to the people, 'Is it not a good time to build houses? This city is like an iron pot. We are safe inside it like meat in a pot.'


English Standard Version
who say, ‘The time is not near to build houses. This city is the cauldron, and we are the meat.’


New American Standard Bible
who say, 'Is not the time near to build houses? This city is the pot and we are the flesh.'


King James Bible
Which say, It is not near; let us build houses: this city is the caldron, and we be the flesh.


Holman Christian Standard Bible
They are saying, 'Isn't the time near to build houses? The city is the pot, and we are the meat.'


International Standard Version
They keep saying, 'The right time to build families hasn't yet arrived. The city is the pot and we are the meat.'


NET Bible
They say, 'The time is not near to build houses; the city is a cooking pot and we are the meat in it.'


New Heart English Bible
who say, 'The time is not near to build houses: this is the caldron, and we are the meat.'


GOD'S WORD® Translation
They say, 'It's almost time to rebuild homes. This city is a cooking pot, and we're the meat.'


JPS Tanakh 1917
that say: The time is not near to build houses! this city is the caldron, and we are the flesh.


New American Standard 1977
who say, ‘Is not the time near to build houses? This city is the pot and we are the flesh.’


Jubilee Bible 2000
who say, It is not near; let us build houses; these shall be the caldron, and we the flesh.


King James 2000 Bible
Who say, It is not near for us to build houses: this city is the caldron, and we are the flesh.


American King James Version
Which say, It is not near; let us build houses: this city is the caldron, and we be the flesh.

4Therefore prophesy against them; prophesy, son of man.”

5Then the Spirit of theLord came on me, and he told me to say: “This is what the Lord says: That is what you are saying, you leaders in Israel, but I know what is going through your mind.
6You have killed many people in this city and filled its streets with the dead.


7“Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: The bodies you have thrown there are the meat and this city is the pot, but I will drive you out of it.
8You fear the sword, and the sword is what I will bring against you, declares the Sovereign Lord.
9I will drive you out of the city and deliver you into the hands of foreigners and inflict punishment on you.
10You will fall by the sword, and I will execute judgment on you at the borders of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.
11This city will not be a pot for you, nor will you be the meat in it; I will execute judgment on you at the borders of Israel.
12And you will know that I am theLord, for you have not followed my decrees or kept my laws but have conformed to the standards of the nations around you.”


13Now as I was prophesying, Pelatiah son of Benaiah died. Then I fell facedown and cried out in a loud voice, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! Will you completely destroy the remnant of Israel?”

From Ezekiel 11






30 injured as Israeli forces storm Al-Aqsa Mosque during Ramadan

Published on Jun 19, 2017


Social media activists have reported that 30 worshippers from a number of countries were injured after Israeli forces stormed Al-Aqsa Mosque and used tear gas and rubber coated bullets within the mosque's walls. A number of people were also arrested and dragged out of the compound on 18 June 2017, the 23rd day of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.







.هُمُ الَّذِينَ يَقُولُونَ لَا تُنفِقُوا عَلَى مَنْ عِندَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ حَتَّى يَنفَضُّوا وَلِلَّهِ خَزَائِنُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَلَكِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ لَا يَفْقَهُونَ{


063:007


They are the ones who say: "Spend not on those who are with Allah's Messenger, until they desert him." And to Allah belong the treasures of the heavens and the earth, but the hypocrites comprehend not.



يَقُولُونَ لَئِن رَّجَعْنَا إِلَى الْمَدِينَةِ لَيُخْرِجَنَّ الْأَعَزُّ مِنْهَا الْأَذَلَّ وَلِلَّهِ الْعِزَّةُ وَلِرَسُولِهِ وَلِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَلَكِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ {8
063:008


They (hyprocrites) say: "If we return to Al- Madinah, indeed the more honourable ('Abdullah bin Ubai bin Salul, the chief of hyprocrites at Al-Madinah) will expel therefrom the meaner (i.e. Allah's Messenger SAW)." But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and to the believers, but the hypocrites know not.





Shuhada Street in Hebron: Closed by Mistake 2009
This is a short documentary on the closure of Shuhada Street in Hebron to Palestinians.




Having Iftar together with the residents at the checkpoint in Shuhada street




Israeli soldier : Only Jews walk here

This is how Palestinian live under the occupation - Are you an Arab ? - yes I am - Only Jews walk here




Israeli settler provokes Palestinian tour guide and Norwegian group in Sheikh Jarrah

The 29th of March 2015 a Norwegian group visited Sheikh Jarrah in East Jerusalem. We visited Nabil Al Kurd`s house. Half of it has been occupied by israeli settlers, with support from Israel. As we were standing outside the house one of the settlers started to yell at us. He said that with the support of Bibi (Netanyahu) Palestine is finished. The movie had over 250 000 views on Facebook before it was removed (reason unknown). Please watch and spread the movie.






Closing more of Shuhada street

Published on 19 Jan 2015More new closures in Shuhada street. Monday the 19th of January, the occupation forces closed several shops and two houses that belong to the Dandis family. There was a big group of soldiers escorted by israeli police and members of the civil administration. According to the Israeli story the closures were for security reasons. The old lady who owns the house (Um Ouaida, 90 years old) was pushed by the soldiers who were welding her house, and she was sent to the nearest local hospital. The ambulance was banned from coming to the place on time.




soldiers detain bodycheck and harass residents who pass sites where building has begun on illegally occupied land.

Published on Feb 4, 2016


3rd of februari 2016 - Palestinian residents walking through the checkpoint on the al-Sahla Street near the Ibrahimi mosque in the old city of Hebron are detained, body-checked and harrassed by Israeli forces





"Skunk" liquid sprayed on a funeral

Hebron In Friday, 24.2.2012, a short time after a demonstration in the same place was dispersed by Israeli security forces, a funeral was held and a group of men led a body for burial in the adjacent muslim cemetery. Border Police officers sprayed the funeral parade with the "skunk", a foul-smelling liquid used to disperse Palestinian protests in the West Bank. After the body was sprayed, the family took it back home to wash it, before it could be buried again.




Palestinian neighborhood of Hebron skunked by the Israeli occupation army

Published on 27 Nov 2015Hebron-H2, November 26, 2015 at 2 pm, an Israeli military skunkwater truck went on the main street of Qaitun, a Palestine Neighborhood and emptied its chemical container in the streets, also targeting houses and rooftops alongside the street. They did it without any security reason - just to make life hard and unpleasant in this Palestinian neighborhood of Hebron H2 (Israeli controlled). You can clearly see this in the video registration.

[ethnhunt]

Those secularist zionist lgbt marching jews should be given half of england and america and not the holy land which is not theirs to give - since the governments of england and america claim to be sympathetic to them

I have NO IDEA why are you posting all those videos. What are you trying to say? I can post videos too! I can tell you a lot about how Palestinian Arabs kill Israeli civilians in HUGE numbers. I can tell you about incitement to violence from Palestinian Authority and post VIDEOS of sermons from many imams that call for murderer of Jews. I can do all of this, but to what end?

The videos you posted are taken out of context for the most part. Please understand that IDF has no standing orders to kill Palestinian Arabs. However, nobody would deny that IDF pushes Arabs to the brink. It’s a complicated situation and that is what happens when you have a dispute. And in this dispute it is the Arabs who have no desire to settle the dispute. So, they get pushed and controlled by the stronger power. When the Arabs decide to negotiate, everything that you object and post about will stop.

There are other videos, you know…there are other points of view and also there is ample evidence that the lives of ordinary Palestinian Arabs have improved dramatically under Israeli control. Here are some factual observation I collected for you:

1. Before June 5, 1967, no universities existed in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Today, there are more than 50 higher education institutions in the territories. Palestinians now have the highest per capita rate of university graduates in the Arab world.

2. According to Al-Najah University, the infant mortality rate in 1967 was between 152 and 162 per 1,000 live births. It dropped to 132 in 1974 and reached 53 to 56 in 1985. The rate kept dropping, reaching—according to World Bank figures—less than 30 in 1993, when the Oslo Agreements were signed. It has kept dropping since then and has already reached 18 today.

3. In 50 years of Israeli rule, 11,000 to 12,000 Palestinians have been killed, mostly terrorists or involved civilians. In fact, this conflict has claimed the lowest number of victims, less than the global average of traffic-related deaths and a lot less than the victims of murders in most big cities in the United States. Just for the sake of comparison, jihad massacres more than 20,000 people every year. That does not include wars.

4. In general, the Palestinians' life expectancy has gone up from 48.6 in 1967 to about 73 (or 75, according to different sources) today. The population growth rate is among the highest in the world too—2.9% a year, according to World Bank figures for 2015, compared to a global average of 1.2% and the Arab world’s average of 2%.

5. I can touch on more and more areas, in which an objective examination will reveal an amazing improvement in the past 50 years. For example, in the area of water. In 1967, only four of 708 Palestinian towns and villages were connected to running water. Today, 643 communities are connected to running water (97% of the population). The Palestinians' water consumption from natural sources has increased as well; while the Israelis’ water consumption has dropped (the Israelis are increasingly moving to desalinated water.

It’s been 50 years since Israel gained control of the territories, and figures show that the Palestinians have actually experienced a major improvement. In most areas, their situation is much better than the situation of Arabs in neighboring countries. So the lies about the destruction must be shattered.

That doesn’t mean there is no injustice. That doesn’t mean there is no room for criticism, even profound criticism, against certain actions committed by Israel. That doesn’t mean that there are no hooligans in the territories, even if they are a small minority. And that definitely doesn’t mean that we should march with our heads held high towards the disaster called one big state or a binational state.

All it means is that we must refute the lies about what the Palestinians have experienced in the past 50 years under Israeli rule.

[ethnhunt]

Can you show me a single example of a western academic who condemns Israel but not targeted by the general academic enviroment?

Same thing happened to Roger Garaudy. He was a Communist who backs up Israel in France but when he changed his opinions and became a prominent critic of Israel he got disowned by the Fench academic and intellectual enviroment who are dominated by the zionist propoganda. Thats not consipiracy, thats the reality..

There are many!

Stephen Hawking’s decision to cancel his participation in the Israeli Presidential Conference on the biggest issues facing humanity
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/left-...emium-1.524560

In 2009, Neve Gordon nearly lost his job as a politics professor at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev after writing an op-ed arguing that Israel has become an apartheid state that can only be saved by an international boycott. One year later, in 2010, world-renowned art theorist Ariella Azoulay was denied tenure by Bar-Ilan University apparently due to her pro-Palestinian political views.

I can list dosens of academics, some Isareli and some are not, with left-wing views who spoke out against Isarel. While they encountered issues with their views, none of them lost the job!

All political groups looby to make their views popular. This is not a crime. It is a leveled playing field. There is no conspiracy here. If you have an issue with Zionism, please make it known and be prepared to defend your views. Please understand that Mr. Finkelstein is not shunned for his views on Israel. He is shunned for questionable scholarship, manipulation of historic facts and shady reasoning. His logic is nonexistent and his arguments can never stand up in any intellectual discussion. This is the reason why nobody in academia wants to talk to him or offer him a job. He is a clown with a Ph. D. that many think he does not deserve and should never been awarded.

[Abz2000]

@ethnhunt - the videos I posted were to hilight the situation and plight of Muslim believers in Allah in the holy land - something that is rarely done in secularist mainstream news outlets which seem content with talking about the false delights and so falsely labelled "progressive" nature of Godless secularism in the "holy land".
I refrain from posting the israeli gay pride marches of the past since I'd have to watch them again first, and it corrupts the soul. Ramadan has been a blessing in that respect.

It is obvious to a clear thinking observer of history and current events that the jews who have been coaxed, coerced, and seduced into moving into the region haven't been instalked there for the sake of God, and that the situation has been staged in order to provoke turmoil and enmity in the region based upon ignorance and tribalism.
If it was a secularist state they wanted - it would have been better to relocate them in Britain or America - since it is primarily the leaders of the nations mentioned who pretend to care about their welfare.
Secondly, the use of God's name in provoking emotions is an obvious red herring and criminal bait and switch tactic - especially when considering the lgbt marches and lewd dress we have been witnessing in jerusalem over the past few years.
Thirdly, if it was really for the sake of God, and not to keep turmoil and gatred going in the region, the decicion makers in the u.n wouldn't have drawn a border right up to the sacred mount and stopped with the western half of jerusalem, but would have provided half of the sacred mount and not left the causes of anger and feeling of being cheated ready to be provoked at whim by political extremists and mischief-makers- to me, it is a sacred place, but the deeds of the people and their nearness to God is what keeps it's sanctity before God, and God has made this clear throughout history when He has turned his mercy away from it due to the state of mind of the people in the region. It becomes a rock, like an idol, when people forget god and move their heart far from him whilst yet repeatedly chanting "the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord". The sanctity of the blood and honour of a righteous person is more sacred in God's sight than a piece of stone, and a heart which is sincere in it's yearning for guidance and justice in god's sight is like a diamond in conparison.
If it were actually my decision, I personally would have never held on to the building or rock whilst seeing life and faith ebb away - I would gave said "accept islam and let us join together in doing good, or since you're here, take half and do justice and right conduct before God in His sacred mount and elsewhere, do not use this false indignation to commit injustice and throw peoole out of their homes in defiance of right and reason, and do not steal any land- you have no excuse, and do not harm the believers in setting up an Islamic state in which they can obey God in peace and be judged in disputes by God's law.

I'm sure any thinking person can see that the Israeli state is not a Godly Jewish statewgich seeks to abide by the Torah, but rather an excuse for Godless secularists to foment hatred and jealousy in the holy land whilst displaying arrogance and defiance towards God in His holy sanctuary with the lewd dress and lgbt marches that arouse the wrath of God.
The set up of the situation and drawing of boundaries shows a will from the outset of certain corrupt leaders to cause future turmoil and wars.

I truly believe that these words found in the book of Jeremiah are from God - The creator of the Universe:


1This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord:
2“Stand at the gate of the Lord’s house and there proclaim this message:

“ ‘Hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the Lord.
3This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place.
4Do not trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord!”
5If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your ancestors for ever and ever.
8But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.

9“ ‘Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury,a burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, 10and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safe”—safe to do all these detestable things?
11Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you?
But I have been watching! declares the Lord.


From Jeremiah, Chapter 7


Now think, were the masonic leaders who worship the dragon in secret really seeking the good will of God when they set the jews up for slaughter in germany in order to move them to the holy land? Or where they criminally seeking to set up an endless war?
Let us think about what's happening so that we can think more clearly in future.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Nonsense on your part Ethhunt.

On the reasons why Norman Finkelstein lost his job. Going up against the Jewish establishment is a risky business.



Hadeel Bashir

This Man stands for truth no matter how bitter it is for his own people . He has a class and high morals. This world may not love him now but he ll go down in history as a man who stood for truth and honesty against all the odds. May Allah bless him and give him peace of heart and mind and contentment. ameen

American Radical - The Trials Of Norman Finkelstein

[ethnhunt]

Salaam
Nonsense on your part Ethhunt.

On the reasons why Norman Finkelstein lost his job. Going up against the Jewish establishment is a risky business.

This Man stands for truth no matter how bitter it is for his own people . He has a class and high morals. This world may not love him now but he ll go down in history as a man who stood for truth and honesty against all the odds. May Allah bless him and give him peace of heart and mind and contentment. ameen

Look…have you listened to the videos you posted? I have. There is nothing new there. Both Finkelstein and Chomsky are saying that Israel violates human rights. We all know that Israel does that every now and then. All countries do that! Israel is no exception.

While there is no official policy in Israel that calls for violating anybody’s human rights, - there are many instances when IDF and even governmental decisions do that, sometimes directly and sometime not. Both Chomsky and Finkelstein scream about it every chance they get. They do not scream about human rights violations anywhere else on the planet, - their target, and YOUR ALSO, is Israel and Israel ONLY. Perhaps they, AND YOU, should be more even-handed, but I’ll let it go…

Let me tell you THE REASON why what they say does not matter, and that Israel’s occasional violation of Arab human right does not matter either. Nobody in world cares enough to do anything about it, let along nobody is capable to do anything about it. There are 2 reasons for it, - first, it is as I already mentioned, - ALL COUNTRIES on the planet violate somebodies human rights. And second, - well, - as we say in a legal business, it all goes to the intent!

What is the intent on part of Messrs. Finkelstein and Chomsky? This is the question, and the answer is very simple, - both of them advocate an eventual demise of Israel as a sovereign state. Their demands, if heeded, would lead to an annihilation of Israel. You should listen to the videos you posted, it’s all there!

I hope you understand now, that Israel has no choice in this matter, - either do what Finkelstein and Chomsky and the rest of pro-Palestinian organizations demand, and, as a consequence, ‘close shop’, ‘pack up’ or simple die. Or…violate human rights of those who agitate and act in a belligerent manner against Israel, occasionally violating their rights in the process.

You simple can’t have it both ways, - you can’t ask for Arab human rights to be respected, while many of those Arabs in the West Bank in Gaza actively involved in terrorism against Israel and advocacy against very existence of Israel.

Funny thing is this, - both Finkelstein and Chomsky are very smart people. They completely understand what I just said to you. They know the implications of their advocacy. So, - in their scholarship, in books that they write and talks that they give, they conveniently avoid the issues I just outlined to you. Like blind kittens, they demand equality and rights for Arabs, while massaging or simple inventing history to support their views, without giving a second thought to the consequences of their demands.

Please Remember that the Arabs whose human rights are violated by Israel, according to Finkelstein, are mostly in Israeli jails and Israelis call them criminals, because they committed crimes against civilians were tried in court with lawyers present and sentenced.

This is why I said to you that both Chomsky and Finkelstein are intellectual clowns. Nobody wants to employ them, particularly Finkelstein. His scholarship is bogus and full of holes, either historic or logical. Believe me, if you were to pursue a degree in university, you would not want to have either of them as a professor, because you eventual degree will not be worth the paper it’s written on.

[ethnhunt]

the videos I posted were to hilight the situation and plight of Muslim believers in Allah in the holy land - something that is rarely done in secularist mainstream news outlets which seem content with talking about the false delights and so falsely labelled "progressive" nature of Godless secularism in the "holy land".
I refrain from posting the israeli gay pride marches of the past since I'd have to watch them again first, and it corrupts the soul. Ramadan has been a blessing in that respect.

I agree, the life of Muslims in West Bank and Gaza is difficult. However, I disagree with you that Israel is a reason for their misery. Israel has nothing to do with their misery. While IDF are not angels and do deal with Arabs in a rather heavy-handed manner, still Israeli posture towards Palestinian Arabs is defensive, not offensive. If it were offensive, as you imply, Palestinian Arabs would be residing in Jordan by now…yet they are not!

Further, - in the past 50 years, since the West Bank came under Israeli control, the lives of Arabs improved tremendously. Their lifestyle is much better than ANYWHERE in the Arab world, save for the emirates.

It is obvious to a clear thinking observer of history and current events that the jews who have been coaxed, coerced, and seduced into moving into the region haven't been instalked there for the sake of God, and that the situation has been staged in order to provoke turmoil and enmity in the region based upon ignorance and tribalism.

Common…you need to stop that. Are we having an intelligent conversation here or not? Any “…clear thinking observer of history…” would tell you that the Jews belong in the Middle East. They are an original people of that area we call Israel today. You can take a shovel and dig ANYWHERE in Israel or West Bank and you will find Hebraic artifacts. Jewish history of the Middle East is written in stone even on the Titus arch in Rome!

The Jews of the world moved to British Palestine in 19^th century in the SAME manner and the same time as the Arabs moved there from Arabia. Also, there always been Jewish villages and towns in Palestine from Roman times till the British took over. Jerusalem had always had Jewish majority at ANY time in human recorded history. UN gave the land to the Jews as a modern historical acknowledgment of the Jewish rights to that area.

Furthermore, G-d has nothing to do with any of that, - these are human issues, not G-d’s. Israel, by definition is a secular democracy where Jewish Law informs Common Law. Other than that, it is a secular country.

If it was a secularist state they wanted - it would have been better to relocate them in Britain or America - since it is primarily the leaders of the nations mentioned who pretend to care about their welfare.

Why? Why is it better? What does religion have to do with affairs of State? In a democracy that Israel clearly is, - religion and state are separated.

Secondly, the use of God's name in provoking emotions is an obvious red herring and criminal bait and switch tactic - especially when considering the lgbt marches and lewd dress we have been witnessing in jerusalem over the past few years.

I understand that you may have issues with gay people. Its fine, - you are entitled. What you are not entitled too, is to force others to conform to your point of view. Further, - if you must know, Torah in principle, simply says that no man can relate to other man in the same manner he relates to the woman. This is a clear prohibition of male homosexuality, but there is nothing to suggest that women fall under the same prohibition. However, religion aside, no religious prohibition is relevant in a secular society.

Thirdly, if it was really for the sake of God, and not to keep turmoil and gatred going in the region, the decicion makers in the u.n wouldn't have drawn a border right up to the sacred mount and stopped with the western half of jerusalem, but would have provided half of the sacred mount and not left the causes of anger and feeling of being cheated ready to be provoked at whim by political extremists and mischief-makers- to me, it is a sacred place, but the deeds of the people and their nearness to God is what keeps it's sanctity before God, and God has made this clear throughout history when He has turned his mercy away from it due to the state of mind of the people in the region. It becomes a rock, like an idol, when people forget god and move their heart far from him whilst yet repeatedly chanting "the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord". The sanctity of the blood and honour of a righteous person is more sacred in God's sight than a piece of stone, and a heart which is sincere in it's yearning for guidance and justice in god's sight is like a diamond in conparison.

I see…but the Temple Mount is holly to Jews also! UN’s decision was violated by Jordan in 1948. Jordan attacked Israel and captured the Temple Mount along with most Eastern Jerusalem and was in possession of it till 1967. No Jews were allowed to pray at Jewish holy sites during that time.

Today, Muslims are free to pray anywhere they want in the Temple Mount. And, out of respect to Muslims, Jordanian-led Waqf is in charge of ALL Muslim places in Jerusalem. Go and pray at will! Nobody will stop you!

UN partitioned the Land 50-50, but the Arabs would not agree to it, went to war and lost it. So the reality on the ground as a result of that loss is different now, and it is only fair that it is different. Your religious fervor is respected and you are free to exercise it, in full contrast to WHAT Jordan did in from 1948 till 1967. You should not feel cheated out of anything, because you are not being cheated.

If it were actually my decision, I personally would have never held on to the building or rock whilst seeing life and faith ebb away - I would gave said "accept islam and let us join together in doing good, or since you're here, take half and do justice and right conduct before God in His sacred mount and elsewhere, do not use this false indignation to commit injustice and throw peoole out of their homes in defiance of right and reason, and do not steal any land- you have no excuse, and do not harm the believers in setting up an Islamic state in which they can obey God in peace and be judged in disputes by God's law.

There is no compulsion in religion, says Quran. So, - while you may want the World to "accept Islam and let us join together in doing good…”, others do disagree and that is their right to disagree.

G-d, through prophet Nathan, did warn King David not to build the Temple for the fear similar to what you state. David did not listen and G-d eventually agreed. That is what the Jews believe. The Jews do not compel you to change your mind, they respect your believes. This is why Jerusalem’s Muslim places of worship is under police and legal protection and are free to all. Israel actually does what it preaches, - freedom of religion is sacrosanct there. Come and be Muslim!

I'm sure any thinking person can see that the Israeli state is not a Godly Jewish statewgich seeks to abide by the Torah, but rather an excuse for Godless secularists to foment hatred and jealousy in the holy land whilst displaying arrogance and defiance towards God in His holy sanctuary with the lewd dress and lgbt marches that arouse the wrath of God.
The set up of the situation and drawing of boundaries shows a will from the outset of certain corrupt leaders to cause future turmoil and wars.

No, - you got it all wrong. Israel is a secular state by definition. It is also a Jewish State. There is no contradiction here. One can be Jewish and secular in the same time. Judaism, much like Islam is a complete system, but Judaism does not necessarily bring G-d into daily affairs. Judaism is a legal system whereby people vote based on values from Torah.

G-d votes too, but only gets ONE vote. Jewish Law, unlike Sharia, is flexible and does change with the times. Torah does not change. Jewish values do not change. But an interpretation of those values does, as majority rules. This is how the Jews governed themselves for the past 4000 years.

I truly believe that these words found in the book of Jeremiah are from God - The creator of the Universe:


1This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord:
2“Stand at the gate of the Lord’s house and there proclaim this message:

“ ‘Hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the Lord.
3This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place.
4Do not trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord!”
5If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your ancestors for ever and ever.
8But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.

9“ ‘Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury,a burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, 10and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safe”—safe to do all these detestable things?
11Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you?
But I have been watching! declares the Lord.


From Jeremiah, Chapter 7


Now think, were the masonic leaders who worship the dragon in secret really seeking the good will of God when they set the jews up for slaughter in germany in order to move them to the holy land? Or where they criminally seeking to set up an endless war?
Let us think about what's happening so that we can think more clearly in future.

Yes, I read Jeremiah too. Many times! He states what Torah states. What does his words have to do with the Nazis? Nothing! You are making things up here with no prove and no logic.

Hitler blamed the Jews for all the ills of the World. Nothing new here, Jews have always been blamed. They are the victim here. Jews are just like you and me, - no different, and they want the same things you want and I want. They are not any more special then you are or me. And they say so themselves!

The slaughter of Jews in WW2 was instrumental in creation of Israel, in the SAME way as WW1 was instrumental in creating Syria, Trance-Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Tunisia, etc. Yes, - all those Muslim and some Arab countries were created in about the same time as Israel was created.

Let the conspiracy theories go…they do not belong in an intelligent conversation.

[Futuwwa]

This is why I said to you that both Chomsky and Finkelstein are intellectual clowns. Nobody wants to employ them, particularly Finkelstein. His scholarship is bogus and full of holes, either historic or logical. Believe me, if you were to pursue a degree in university, you would not want to have either of them as a professor, because you eventual degree will not be worth the paper it’s written on.

Chomsky an intellectual clown? Actually, he's the world's most cited living academic. He's an MIT professor at that, such an academic superstar that his position is unassailable even by an intellectual-industrial complex that hates him.

I finally found the time to reply to you, but now I'm not sure whether it's worth my time. I have a feeling you will simply categorically reject everything I say as untrue, and any source that doesn't align with your preconceived views as having ipso facto proven itself biased and invalid.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you ethnhunt;

Furthermore, G-d has nothing to do with any of that, - these are human issues, not G-d’s. Israel, by definition is a secular democracy where Jewish Law informs Common Law. Other than that, it is a secular country.

Agreed, it is a secular state, and they make up their own secular laws. If they complied with God's law, then they would have to take note of passages like.........

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
.
Ezekiel 47
21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.

Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

Why? Why is it better? What does religion have to do with affairs of State? In a democracy that Israel clearly is, - religion and state are separated.

See above

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

Chomsky: U.S. Is Helping Israel Annex So Much Land, Palestinians Could Have Essentially Nothing

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you ethnhunt;

UN partitioned the Land 50-50, but the Arabs would not agree to it,

I believe it was the Jews who were not content with a 50-50 split.

In the spirit of praying to One God
Eric

[ethnhunt]

Chomsky an intellectual clown? Actually, he's the world's most cited living academic. He's an MIT professor at that, such an academic superstar that his position is unassailable even by an intellectual-industrial complex that hates him.

The fact the Mr. Chomsky is an MIT professor does not qualify him as a ‘superstar’ in anything. What may qualify him as a ‘superstar’ is his scholarly work, which is very good indeed…but not all of it. In a way I am qualified to point this out to you, because although am not an MIT professor, but I am an MIT graduate (physics). Believe me, - MIT has its share of nobodies. I did graduate work there and I know this first hand.

I am extremely aware of Mr. Chomsky’s work, even heard him speak… and I know how his work informs related fields. His field is linguistics. His academic work is very good, but his attitude towards where that work needs to go is not so much. For instance, the Artificial Intelligence guys and Media Labs people do not think much of him, and for a very good reason. No matter…this is not what we are discussing here. I called him an intellectual clown, because of his POLITICAL views, not his expertise in linguistics. You absolutely cannot mix those issues together. To wit, - Rogers Waters is a great musician, but he will never win a political office due to his discredited political views.

Mr. Chomsky is a classic left-wing Marxist of Berny Sanders variety. But he is a Zionist! I bet it comes as a surprise to you. Let me tell a bit about Mr. Chomsky, so that you too will know what he is and what he is not…

“Today Mr. Chomsky is something of a saint for the far-Left. Thus they have been alarmed at a strange, under-reported reality: Chomsky the anti-nationalist and anti-imperialist voice is, when all is said and done, a Zionist supporter of the ethnically-Jewish state of Israel. Look here:

· Chomsky opposes the cultural boycott of Israel

· Chomsky denies the Israel Lobby has been a critical influence on U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East

· Chomsky is opposed to the right of return for descendants of the Palestinian refugees who were expelled from their lands in the 1948 Israeli-Arab War. Amazingly, Chomsky instead supports the right of return only for those Palestinians who were themselves expelled, a generation which is so old it is on the verge of dying off!

· Chomsky supports the “two-state solution” as the only “practical” one. This is again rather strange: on all other topics, Chomsky’s far-Left politics have never been constrained by issues of “practicality” or mainstream elite appeal. Furthermore, in any case, a two-state solution is perfectly impossible so long as there are over 500,000 settlers in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

Chomsky, is as much of a Zionist as Netanyahu. But Chomsky is a far better and more subtle advocate of a Jewish State for his people than Netanyahu, undermining anti-Zionism where it would otherwise be most likely to flourish: the far-Left!

Chomsky has increasingly come into conflict with Israeli leftists, notably in a book by Ilan Pappe
because Mr. Pappe advocates a “one-state solution” by creating a binational Jewish-Palestinian state, with Jews as a minority…and Chomsky is against this.

Mr. Chomsky is mainly known for his systematic opposition to “imperialist” U.S. foreign policy and to “corporate power” within the United States. This includes a claim that the mass media essentially dominates public opinion (look up his book ‘Manufacturing Consent’), its elite controllers carefully tuning the message in the service of U.S. imperialist and corporate interests.

I have never found Mr. Chomsky’s particular brand of ‘let’s hag everybody’ internationalist anarcho-communism particularly persuasive. Chomsky suggests academics and students are going to impotently protest and nag their way to a better world, which strikes me as a conceited and dishonest view.

Chomsky’s position on Israel however, reveals him to be the most subtle Zionist, of 1920’s kind, actually being just another (conscious or not) hypocritical ethnic activist.

One of Chomsky’s foundational moral arguments is the following, - justifying his systematic criticism of the U.S. government (as opposed to foreign powers):

But why limit yourself to your own government? Governments after all, are only the agents of elites. Why don’t we criticize the most privileged and influential ethnic elite in the U.S.? If, in public discourse, people oppose and criticize supposed White privilege and ethnocentrism, then one must also criticize far greater Jewish privilege and ethnocentrism. Right? LOL!

So much for Chomsky. He won’t be read or remembered (except perhaps as a warning).”

To summarize, - I called Mr. Chomsky an intellectual clown mostly due to this intellectually dishonest political position that on the surface looks like ‘next best thing since sliced bread’, but in reality would lead to the demise of Israel. I am not sure if he understand this, and I hope he does not. Because if he does, then that makes him identical to the likes of people that quote him the most today, - yes…his views today appear on neo-Nazi sites and pro-Palestinian forums that dream and openly advocate for Israel's destruction and also quoted by openly anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists.

I finally found the time to reply to you, but now I'm not sure whether it's worth my time. I have a feeling you will simply categorically reject everything I say as untrue, and any source that doesn't align with your preconceived views as having ipso facto proven itself biased and invalid.

Well…well…So, - you just abdicate and call it a day…Please note that I never simply rejected your views. I told you WHY I reject them. You are welcome to argue in order to support your views. But you choose not too…why? I can (and do) substantiate EVERYTHING I ever wrote in response to you. Can you do the same? So far you have not been able to do that.

My point remains, - Palestinian Authority and their apologists, like Mr. Finkelstein, and to a much lesser degree Mr. Chomsky, are responsible for most of the misery that Palestinian Arabs currently experiencing. Israel is not at fault here.

The PA’s absolute rejectionizm of ALL Israeli peace proposal and open support for terrorism against Jewish population, is a testament to their desire to eventually get rid of the Jews for good. They want another Arab state instead of Israel, not next to Israel.

The work by Finkelstein and Chomsky is also leading to that end. This is not a path to coexistence and peace. This is a path to war. History does not support the Arab narrative here, - they lost all conflicts so far. Do you really think that anyone wants another war? I am sure that Israelis do not, but the Palestinian Arabs, well…no so much.

It does not strike me as very intelligent, but, - hey…go and listen to Mr. Finkelstein and his ‘Israel must commit suicide by adhering to human rights standards as specified by Israel’s enemies’! Sure, Mr. Finkelstein…we are all stupid!

- - - Updated - - -

Greetings and peace be with you ethnhunt;



Agreed, it is a secular state, and they make up their own secular laws. If they complied with God's law, then they would have to take note of passages like.........

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
.
Ezekiel 47
21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.

Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.



See above

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric

You jest, Eric!

On one hand you agree that Israel is a secular country, but you immediately chastise Israel for not religiously follow the laws of Torah! You can't have it both ways.

Please understand that, first of all, you quote Leviticus and Exodus as translated in what appears to be King James Bible, which FAR from accurate and you quote this out of context.

Secondly, if you were to continue on this line of reasoning by bringing a 5000 year old Bible into 21st century, you also must adhere to a much later written Jewish Law as deliberated in Talmudic tradition and writings of 2-6 century. You will quickly discover that in the case of self-defense many passages from Leviticus might be suspended and superseded by a different understandings.

Today, Israel finds itself in a rather defensive posture relative to PA's position. Israel is waiting for a new PA leadership that just might deal with Israeli peace proposals. While waiting for it, Israel must treat Palestinian Arabs as a hostile population, which without a doubt and by their own admission, - it is.

As you see, - the reality is by far more complex then what you are making it out to be. If Bible can be applied and all parties were to respect it, then perhaps it might work. But that is a wishful thinking.

Let me put it to you in away that you may find plausible, - in order to 'turn the other cheek' and achieve what that pronouncement demands, ALL MUST 'turn the other cheek'! If its only you who is doing it, - well, - then that act will be the last thing you will ever do on this Earth. At best, - you will be eaten last!

- - - Updated - - -

Greetings and peace be with you ethnhunt;

I believe it was the Jews who were not content with a 50-50 split.

In the spirit of praying to One God
Eric

No. You are wrong. It is on record that Ben-Gurion, in his capacity as a leader, publicly and numerous times pronounced that the Jews agree to the partition. There is ample evidence including the videos. Please google this.

- - - Updated - - -

Salaam

Another update
Chomsky: U.S. Is Helping Israel Annex So Much Land, Palestinians Could Have Essentially Nothing

Yes, indeed. Please look up the Israeli peace proposals to PA in 2000, 2009 and 2013. I like 2000 deal the best. To summarize, - the Arabs were offered up to 97% of the land that they asked for. Yet, they said NO!
They were also offered economical rehabilitation, defense treaty, open market leading to open borders. They said NO to all of that.

As it stands, in an absents of an agreement, Israel may annex 'Area C' and unilaterally delve-define its borders. Any country in this situation will probably do the same. Clearly the Arabs, as led by PA, do not want to have a deal. Therefore they will only loose more as time goes on. That is how the world works.

[Serinity]

:salam:

I want these israelites gone. Terrible for killing small children and taking our homes.

And Allah :swt: knows best.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you ethnhunt;

You jest, Eric!

On one hand you agree that Israel is a secular country, but you immediately chastise Israel for not religiously follow the laws of Torah! You can't have it both ways.

I think you have misread my post, i said, 'Agreed, it is a secular state, and they make up their own secular laws. If they complied with God's law, then they would have to take note of passages like.........'

On the one hand the Jews want the Biblical state of Israel to exist, but they do not want to follow God's law.

Please understand that, first of all, you quote Leviticus and Exodus as translated in what appears to be King James Bible, which FAR from accurate and you quote this out of context.

The quotes were from the NIV and not the KJ as you suggest. If I have taken these passages out of context, then what true context do you have in mind?

Secondly, if you were to continue on this line of reasoning by bringing a 5000 year old Bible into 21st century, you also must adhere to a much later written Jewish Law as deliberated in Talmudic tradition and writings of 2-6 century. You will quickly discover that in the case of self-defense many passages from Leviticus might be suspended and superseded by a different understandings.

I am not sure how you call their action defensive, The Jews came in large numbers, they changed the name of the country from Palestine to Israel, and they used force.

As you see, - the reality is by far more complex then what you are making it out to be. If Bible can be applied and all parties were to respect it, then perhaps it might work. But that is a wishful thinking.

At some point, we shall all have to stand before God.

Let me put it to you in away that you may find plausible, - in order to 'turn the other cheek' and achieve what that pronouncement demands, ALL MUST 'turn the other cheek'! If its only you who is doing it, - well, - then that act will be the last thing you will ever do on this Earth. At best, - you will be eaten last!

Again, at some point we shall all have to stand before God, life is ultimately not about the few years we spend on this planet.

In the spirit of praying to 'One God'

Eric

[ethnhunt]

I think you have misread my post, i said, 'Agreed, it is a secular state, and they make up their own secular laws. If they complied with God's law, then they would have to take note of passages like.........'

On the one hand the Jews want the Biblical state of Israel to exist, but they do not want to follow God's law.

I see..ok…I must tell you that nobody ever wanted a Biblical State of Israel. People wanted a democratic State of Israel in the place where the Jews came from. Israel is a Jewish State, not the State for the Jews. There is a fundamental difference. Many ethnic groups live in Israel today, Jews are a majority. But there are the Muslims, the Druze, the Christians (of all kinds), the atheist the Bahaj, the Samaritans, etc. All are treated equally under the law, all are represented in the parliament. You will find them in all spheres of life, - the courts, the Army, the medical profession, the teachers, etc. etc.

Biblical law, as you put it, is not a Law. Biblical law is merely a suggestion, - a directive from G-d. It is definitely a basis for what we call today a Judeo-Christian jurisprudence as enshrined in a British Law, which is practiced in various forms in all Western countries, including US and Canada.

Even though I am not a Jew, nor am I an Israeli, - still, I like the Jewish take on it, - whereby Torah is used as a guide to Civil law. Nobody in their right mind will ever use Leviticus or Exodus passages directly, besides they were never meant to be used verbatim. Jewish tradition assigns a vote to G-d, but only one vote! We, the people, have a ‘free will’, given to us by G-d. We use that ‘free will’ as we see fit and face consequences for our decisions.

The ideas from Leviticus and Exodus are in fact used in Israeli Law and British law, with provisions and restrictions as mandated by parliament. By insinuating that G-d’s law is missing from the picture you display a lack of understanding of how the democracy works.

If we were to take your approach today, we’d be cutting hands and heads off people for crimes that we cannot possibly construe as crimes in 21st century. For example, - Biblical Law demands that you kill the rebellious child for disagreeing with the command of the parent, - but we do not do that!

You cannot pick and choose here, - you cannot shop for the Biblical Laws that you like and disregard those laws that do not appeal to you. If you use one, you must use them all! And that approach will never work in an intelligent circles. Therefore, the law must ‘bend’ to the ‘needs’ of the people at the time.

Times will change and the Law will change along with it. Jewish Law does recognize this today and it always recognized this. Israelis take their clues from Torah and apply them to modern times within the British Law provisions. The Catholic Church, in a way, attempts to do the same through Papal pronouncements and the Protestants look to their leaders for guidance. But we do not really have a Church law. Sharia, on the other hand, is fairly inflexible and the commentaries are not in general agreement, so its coexistence with laws in use today is dubious.

The Jews are in a better position, because their way is deep in interpretation of Torah and therefore the law as derived from Torah is flexible and serves the people, instead of people serving the law. G-d does not mind this, because G-d has given the law to the people to interpret as required. That is Jewish tradition.

The quotes were from the NIV and not the KJ as you suggest. If I have taken these passages out of context, then what true context do you have in mind?

The context of the passages in both Leviticus and Exodus applies to tribal society, where there is no tradition for legal scholarship. This is NOT what we have today.

I am not sure how you call their action defensive, The Jews came in large numbers, they changed the name of the country from Palestine to Israel, and they used force.

Well, - no…none of what you are saying is even remotely true.

Israel is in a defensive posture because it is trying to deal with Palestinian Arabs. If Israel was in offensive posture, then those Palestine Arabs would be residing in Jordan by now. Israel is in awaiting mode, - waiting to PA to come to the table and deal. This is defensive!

The Jews came in much less numbers then the Muslims did. Both groups saw large emigration happening in the 19^th century, with numbers increasing in a latter part of it. British authorities after 1^st World War instituted a limit on Jewish emigration to about 15,000 per year, but there was no limit on Arab emigration in to the area. Check the published data, - it’s all there.

In 1947 there were 600,000 Jews in Palestine and about 1.1 million Muslims. After Israel became a country, emigration to Israel became a function of Israeli Law, in the same manner as when Jordan became a country in 1946, its emigration was controlled by its law. Israel legalized the Law of Return allowing any Jew to come and live in Israel free of prosecution. As you know the Jews have unjustly been prosecuted virtually everywhere in World, starting with Roman exile in a year 134. So, the Jewish State was a logical sanctuary for those Jews who still being prosecuted at the time, - The Russian Jews and the Jews in Arab countries as an example might be.

Furthermore, - the Jews never “…changed the name of the country from Palestine to Israel…” There was never a country called Palestine. It is also true today. That land had no country affiliation since the Romans exiled the Jews in 2^nd century. Before it was known as Judea.

That land was under control of many empires, Turkish being the last one. That land was always treated as an afterthought, an unimportant piece of real estate, by all powers that ever controlled it from 2^nd century on, and until the end of 19^th century, when the Jews started to emigrate there and ultimately rebuilt the place.

The crusaders briefly had a ‘beef’ with Muslims, but it only barely lasted 3 centuries. The rest of the time of was desolate place with Jewish, Muslim, Druze and Christian villages spread out all over. Read the accounts available that describe that reality, - several British travelers left notes in 16 century and famously Mark Twain wrote about it in 19^th century. Look it up.

Anyway, your assertion that Palestinian Arabs somehow had a country called Palestine and that the Jews took it from them is plainly untrue. Furthermore, the war in 1948, as ALL wars, was stared by Arabs! So, the Israel used force in self defense!

At some point, we shall all have to stand before God.

… life is ultimately not about the few years we spend on this planet.

Perhaps…perhaps not. What does it matter? Again, I like the rabbinical approach to those issues, - let’s not talk about the things we have no idea about. Let’s talk about things that inform our lives and effect our reality.

[سيف الله]

Sorry ethnhunt nobodys buying.

[ethnhunt]

Sorry ethnhunt nobodys buying.

I know...truth always hurts! Good luck with your illusions.

Believe me, the world is not going to wait for you.

[MuhammadHamza1]

The man who is saying why Palestinians did not accept the UN partition,
I will let one of your own men,answer you.
https://youtu.be/TOaxAckFCuQ

[MuhammadHamza1]

Watch it whole.
It is worth the time.

[MuhammadHamza1]

I know...truth always hurts! Good luck with your illusions.

Believe me, the world is not going to wait for you.

You can talk with me.

[ethnhunt]

The man (Mr. Peled) who is saying why Palestinians did not accept the UN partition,
I will let one of your own men,answer you.

Yes, I know who he is. He is a well known revisionist of history. I even tried to read his book. The book can never be taken seriously because he contradicts everybody! He even contradict Mr. Chomsky! No respectable historian would even publish a review of his book. No university anywhere in the West would even consider his book for a reading material. He is totally discredited person.

Watch it whole. It is worth the time.

I watched ...most of it. It was painful to watch. He is making things up as he goes. Do you realize that there are literary many dozens of people both Israelis or not, Jewish or not, that actually witnessed the same events he is talking about and they completely contradict his views. Mr. Peled is being totally dishonest.

Look at how Mr. Peled describes himself, - as an “Israeli writer and peace activist living in the US.” He also notes that he is the author of “The General’s Son, The Journey of an Israeli in Palestine.” As the title of his book so helpfully indicates, his main claim to fame is that he is a “general’s son,” the general being Matti Peled. The kind of “peace” Peled pursues is reflected in his Twitter profile picture, which is definitely worth a thousand words: a red hat sporting the slogan “MAKE ISRAEL PALESTINE AGAIN.”, - and with this proclamation you have his agenda, which clearly is, - destroy Jewish-majority Israel and create Muslim-majority Palestine.

His entire presentation in the link you posted is bogus. I'll be happy to take this apart for you if you wish. Please post specifically what you want to talk about.

You can talk with me.

Absolutely, - we can discuss anything you wish as it pertains to this topic.

[MuhammadHamza1]

Yes, I know who he is. He is a well known revisionist of history. I even tried to read his book. The book can never be taken seriously because he contradicts everybody! He even contradict Mr. Chomsky! No respectable historian would even publish a review of his book. No university anywhere in the West would even consider his book for a reading material. He is totally discredited person.



I watched ...most of it. It was painful to watch. He is making things up as he goes. Do you realize that there are literary many dozens of people both Israelis or not, Jewish or not, that actually witnessed the same events he is talking about and they completely contradict his views. Mr. Peled is being totally dishonest.

Look at how Mr. Peled describes himself, - as an “Israeli writer and peace activist living in the US.” He also notes that he is the author of “The General’s Son, The Journey of an Israeli in Palestine.” As the title of his book so helpfully indicates, his main claim to fame is that he is a “general’s son,” the general being Matti Peled. The kind of “peace” Peled pursues is reflected in his Twitter profile picture, which is definitely worth a thousand words: a red hat sporting the slogan “MAKE ISRAEL PALESTINE AGAIN.”, - and with this proclamation you have his agenda, which clearly is, - destroy Jewish-majority Israel and create Muslim-majority Palestine.

His entire presentation in the link you posted is bogus. I'll be happy to take this apart for you if you wish. Please post specifically what you want to talk about.



Absolutely, - we can discuss anything you wish as it pertains to this topic.

You need to realize that in modern era,we must search for evidences.
Eye witnesses are not trustworthy.
The reason being,that anyone can claim to be eye witnesses,or even lie that they were eye witnesses.A perfect example in this regard,are the So called eyewitnesses of the Holocaust.They rather make a mockery of themselves with the lies they spit.So we must look for evidences and that also from credible organizations.
So how can you say
That his conclusions do not match those of several eyewitnesses.
A recent example is when certain eyewitnesses testified against Bashar al Assad.Later it was found,that they were not eyewitnesses but some people sent by Qatar.

[ethnhunt]

You need to realize that in modern era,we must search for evidences.
Eye witnesses are not trustworthy.
The reason being,that anyone can claim to be eye witnesses,or even lie that they were eye witnesses.

I agree that one absolutely MUST have evidence. I also agree that not ALL eyewitnesses are credible. However, you seem to be making a one-sided generalization here, implying that there is no standard by which we, the people, can judge the veracity of an eyewitness or an event. In the environment of a Western society we have an approach that is habitually used by the courts of law to make a determination what IS and what is NOT believable. I do, in all of my posts, follow this approach.

We may have two eyewitnesses claiming two different and often conflicting scenarios. Clearly only one scenario is credible. Which one? In the Western courts we do not just look for evidence to substantiate the eyewitness testimony, we look for the preponderance of evidence. It is not enough to say, that “I saw this or that…’. We look for consequences, we look for what came before and after, and most importantly we look for motive, - an agenda. In the end we must rationalize if this agenda fits what is in the best for all involved. In other words we must balance the truth with credibility, evidence and what is the best interests of the society. OK?

With aforementioned in mind, I must tell you that I can and will present my case to you in that light. I will NEVER tell you that ‘I have an eyewitness who saw something’ and based on that I declare myself to be right and declare you to be wrong. I will never do that. I will present and overwhelming evidence to support ALL of what I post here.

In the end, it is the best argument that carries the day.

A perfect example in this regard,are the So called eyewitnesses of the Holocaust.They rather make a mockery of themselves with the lies they spit.So we must look for evidences and that also from credible organizations.

Are you saying that the Holocaust has been misrepresented? If you do, then you have a problem.

There is simply no way to disagree with what is taken to be an acceptable historical narrative. So, - NO, - the Holocaust is an extremely BAD example of your assertions regarding the eyewitnesses. I caution you not to go there!

The evidence is overwhelming with pictures, videos, eyewitnesses, court documents, - etc. – all coming from different countries with conflicting political systems, yet all in agreement! Like I said, - do not go there!

So how can you say
That his conclusions do not match those of several eyewitnesses.
A recent example is when certain eyewitnesses testified against Bashar al Assad. Later it was found, that they were not eyewitnesses but some people sent by Qatar.

Look, - I am not here to discuss anything regarding Mr. Assad. Further, you can’t connect what one eyewitness said with what another eyewitness might say. In this case, eyewitness accounts are secondary issues.

When I said that I can bring eyewitness accounts, I meant to say that I will argue for the credibility of those eyewitness. I have no idea how credible the eyewitness was in reference to Assad. However, I can and will put Mr. Peled and his reputation to shame. I will put up Mr. Peled's reputation against a number of people who completely and totally disagree with his accounts of history. Those people have reputations that Mr. Peled will never stand up too.

However, I am willing to make it simple, - let’s not bring eyewitnesses into this. I stipulate that Mr. Peled has a right to his opinion. I challenge you to look at the history as you know it, and ask the following question, - what Israel as a country, in your opinion, should do in regards to Palestinian Arabs, considering what has been happening after 1948.

Mr. Peled says that Israel violates human rights of Palestinian Arabs and I agree, - it does happen. My point is this, - Israel has no good choice here and is forced to do it or does it in self-defense. Mr. Peled says that Israel existence is illegitimate and attempt to substantiate his views with revisionist history, i.e. the history that never happen, history that he simply does not understand or misinterprets or the history that he invented.

I say that Israel and the Jews have a much better claim to the land they live on then any other ethnic group in the same area, save for the Druze perhaps. Jewish claim is historic, religious and most important enshrined in a legal process that the World has signed off on. I am sure that there are other issues, and I will entertain them if you point them out.

Forget the eyewitness, - forget Mr. Peled. Look at the evidence and try to support your views. Look at the intent, look at what IS in the best interest of the people, - all people. Ok?

[MuhammadHamza1]

I agree that one absolutely MUST have evidence. I also agree that not ALL eyewitnesses are credible. However, you seem to be making a one-sided generalization here, implying that there is no standard by which we, the people, can judge the veracity of an eyewitness or an event. In the environment of a Western society we have an approach that is habitually used by the courts of law to make a determination what IS and what is NOT believable. I do, in all of my posts, follow this approach.

We may have two eyewitnesses claiming two different and often conflicting scenarios. Clearly only one scenario is credible. Which one? In the Western courts we do not just look for evidence to substantiate the eyewitness testimony, we look for the preponderance of evidence. It is not enough to say, that “I saw this or that…’. We look for consequences, we look for what came before and after, and most importantly we look for motive, - an agenda. In the end we must rationalize if this agenda fits what is in the best for all involved. In other words we must balance the truth with credibility, evidence and what is the best interests of the society. OK?

With aforementioned in mind, I must tell you that I can and will present my case to you in that light. I will NEVER tell you that ‘I have an eyewitness who saw something’ and based on that I declare myself to be right and declare you to be wrong. I will never do that. I will present and overwhelming evidence to support ALL of what I post here.

In the end, it is the best argument that carries the day.



Are you saying that the Holocaust has been misrepresented? If you do, then you have a problem.

There is simply no way to disagree with what is taken to be an acceptable historical narrative. So, - NO, - the Holocaust is an extremely BAD example of your assertions regarding the eyewitnesses. I caution you not to go there!

The evidence is overwhelming with pictures, videos, eyewitnesses, court documents, - etc. – all coming from different countries with conflicting political systems, yet all in agreement! Like I said, - do not go there!



Look, - I am not here to discuss anything regarding Mr. Assad. Further, you can’t connect what one eyewitness said with what another eyewitness might say. In this case, eyewitness accounts are secondary issues.

When I said that I can bring eyewitness accounts, I meant to say that I will argue for the credibility of those eyewitness. I have no idea how credible the eyewitness was in reference to Assad. However, I can and will put Mr. Peled and his reputation to shame. I will put up Mr. Peled's reputation against a number of people who completely and totally disagree with his accounts of history. Those people have reputations that Mr. Peled will never stand up too.

However, I am willing to make it simple, - let’s not bring eyewitnesses into this. I stipulate that Mr. Peled has a right to his opinion. I challenge you to look at the history as you know it, and ask the following question, - what Israel as a country, in your opinion, should do in regards to Palestinian Arabs, considering what has been happening after 1948.

Mr. Peled says that Israel violates human rights of Palestinian Arabs and I agree, - it does happen. My point is this, - Israel has no good choice here and is forced to do it or does it in self-defense. Mr. Peled says that Israel existence is illegitimate and attempt to substantiate his views with revisionist history, i.e. the history that never happen, history that he simply does not understand or misinterprets or the history that he invented.

I say that Israel and the Jews have a much better claim to the land they live on then any other ethnic group in the same area, save for the Druze perhaps. Jewish claim is historic, religious and most important enshrined in a legal process that the World has signed off on. I am sure that there are other issues, and I will entertain them if you point them out.

Forget the eyewitness, - forget Mr. Peled. Look at the evidence and try to support your views. Look at the intent, look at what IS in the best interest of the people, - all people. Ok?

I am sorry I was away for abit.
So pleaae pardon me.
As for Holocaust.
I dare you to.

[ethnhunt]

I am sorry I was away for abit.
So pleaae pardon me.

...no problem.

As for Holocaust. I dare you to.

I am not sure I understand. Are you saying that you dare me to produce evidence of Holocaust??? Hmm...if so, - would the evidence from official sources in Russian Federation, US Holocaust Memorial in Washington, Holocaust Memorial Center (Yad Vashem) in Jerusalem along with countless sites from Poland, Germany, France, Canada even Australia, etc. etc. would do?

I hope you realize that the pictures along and videos are totally conclusive. Do you really want to go there and feel embarrassed in the process? Do you want to peruse the documents from Nuremberg trials?

Israelis have documented evidence on 1.6 million dead, - including names, pictures, eyewitness accounts that are corroborated by the German archives. As it turned out the Nazis kept the up-to-date files on how many they murdered and the manner in which they murdered them. Those documents were used in Nuremberg during the trials in 1945-1948.

The Russians have countless videos of the concentration camp with testimonies of German solders attesting to the murders of Jews and Slavs.

The Russians count about 7 million Jewish dead in camps and ghettos. The Americans count about 6 million, which is taken to be an official count. By the way, the count is not a supposition, - it is from available documentation.

Anyway, perhaps this link will be the only thing you will require.

https://www.ushmm.org/confront-antis...and-distortion

I can do more...

[MuhammadHamza1]

Let us set the basics.
Do you think that if there is no(take Holocaust out of your mind for now) Scientific proof,
Just because a Government produces documents,
It is the truth?
I can also go on...
With regards to documental and Scientific proof.
But first answer that question.

Sent from my SM-G313H using IslamicBoard mobile app

What I mean is that,
Can a Government not fake documents?
I am implying that Scientific study has to be used as evidence and not discarded.
Which it is in this case.
As for Scientific evidence,
See the videos below.

Sent from my SM-G313H using IslamicBoard mobile app

Firstly.
The argument I mostly get after showing these videos,is that how can you trust only one man?
The answer is:
1)-There are many Holocaust Deniers.
2)-If he is only one crazy man,Refuting him shall not be a problem.
https://youtu.be/mYCwaIt-GUM
https://youtu.be/_c9oIVwDM6Q
More are coming...

Sent from my SM-G313H using IslamicBoard mobile app

This is the best argument I have produced.
He was the Chemist,who was sent by the US Government itself.
https://youtu.be/zKqu93-wGGE

Sent from my SM-G313H using IslamicBoard mobile app

And as far as the figure 6 Million is concerned,
I agree.
Around 6 Million Jews were killed DURING THE WHOLE COURSE OF THE WAR.
And majority of which,were caused by EPIDEMICS.
There were also Jewish killings in Soviet Union,but they were MOSLTY killed by their own people.The Bolsheviks had killed 66 Million of their own people.
Also,There were Jews who were deported from Germany to Soviet Union,and then they were killed.
But I challange you to produce me one Nazi Document that shows that Hitler was aware of these killings.
I am not a fanatic Hitler Supporter.
But we should not lie about anyone.

Sent from my SM-G313H using IslamicBoard mobile app

This is long video but worrh it.1 hour and 20 minute long. https://youtu.be/mmrHBT5h-BA


Sent from my SM-G313H using IslamicBoard mobile app

My argument is simply this.
Governments can fake documents.Therefore,
there must be some secondary evidence to support them.
And in the case of Holocaust,The Scientific evidence and Even Common Sense,proves that the documents regarding Holocaust are false.
It also proves,that we should be vigilant of what the Governments preach us and teach us in our Textbooks.


Sent from my SM-G313H using IslamicBoard mobile app

Also there are Nazi Documents which clearly show that Hitler wanted to settle the Jewish issue 'after the war.'
It is to be noted that the Nazis were extremely confident of their ultimate triumph.As is shown from their documents.
Goebells even said:
"The end of the red Terror is very near."

Sent from my SM-G313H using IslamicBoard mobile app

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Israel role in fomenting chaos in the middle east. It was all part of the plan

[Futuwwa]

Well…well…So, - you just abdicate and call it a day…Please note that I never simply rejected your views. I told you WHY I reject them. You are welcome to argue in order to support your views. But you choose not too…why? I can (and do) substantiate EVERYTHING I ever wrote in response to you. Can you do the same? So far you have not been able to do that.

I can, I have, and I choose to do no further. I did substantiate my views while we were actually talking, you simply rejected everything I said as plainly untrue. A scorched-earth, deny-everything game any idiot can play. A game two can play. Go on, provide an academic-publication-level citation for every single assertion you've made in this entire thread, or concede defeat :p

I don't abdicate, I choose not to play. A winning move in the right context, as the famous movie quote goes.

I was going to reply to you, but your behaviour reminded me of why I got fed up with trying to have a serious discussion with you in the first place. Your outright lies regarding the actual academic standing of Chomsky and Finkelstein is not only representative of your disdain of those you disagree with, but your dishonesty and evident lack of interest in honest discussion. You called Chomsky an academic clown and degrees gotten under him not worth the paper printed on. When I pointed out that no, he's actually the world's most cited academic, you made a creative "clarification" that you only meant a clown regarding his political dissent. Which was a nice try, but no cigar. Your original statement referred to his actual academic work, otherwise the point about degrees gotten under him (which would be in the field of linguistics, his actual academic field) being worthless wouldn't be applicable.

I'm done wasting my time on you. You can choose to learn something from how our exchange ended up like it did, or you can try to spin it as a win by walkover for you. Frankly, I find the latter far more probable. If so, you'll get the last word in, good luck making the most of it. Toodles.

[ethnhunt]

Let us set the basics.
Do you think that if there is no (take Holocaust out of your mind for now) Scientific proof,
Just because a Government produces documents,
It is the truth?
I can also go on...
With regards to documental and Scientific proof.
But first answer that question.

…and

What I mean is that,
Can a Government not fake documents?
I am implying that Scientific study has to be used as evidence and not discarded.
Which it is in this case.
As for Scientific evidence,
See the videos below.

LOL! What science are you talking about? There is no science to speak off as it pertains to Holocaust. You have absolutely no idea what the term ‘scientific proof’ actually stands for. I can see it, given how you attempt to use this term. Tell me what are your scientific credentials? I bet you have none!

When it comes to Holocaust, all we, and I mean ‘we’ the people of the planet, have is this, - the eyewitness accounts, the pictures, the videos, the authenticated documents from the Nazis, - that is all!

No science can ever stand up to this. You can never say that the gas chambers was never there or that they were not used to kill as many as stipulated, and you can never say that the diseases killed the Jews. Because the legally acceptable definition of proof does not need the science to convict the Nazis of the crime of killing the 6 million Jews.

Let me put it to you in a way that you are capable of understanding, - when I have a testimony of the person who operated the gas chambers,
and the documents from the Nazis indicating how many Jews were murdered in those gas chambers,
and the testimony from the factory that manufactured the gas,
and the testimony from the people who delivered the gas pellets,
and the testimony of the Allied military personal that discovered the gas chambers, and testimony of people that analyzed the efficacy of Ziclon B, - the gas used in those chambers,
and the testimony of the Jews that worked in those gas chambers,
and the videos of the process as filmed by the Nazis.

I DO NOT NEED SCIENCE TO CONVICT! Get it?

Now, - back to your question, - yes, - the Government of a country with no legal checks and balances is very capable of deceiving the public. You may look at the former USSR for a good example of that. However, as we say in a legal business, it all goes to the intent! Why would US Government manufacture 3000 kg of documents, as they were used in Nuremberg trials that decisively, beyond ANY DOUBT shown that the murder of 6 million Jews happened and the manner in which they were murdered, so that the public may be deceived????

Even USSR had no reason to deceive the world when it came to the atrocities of Nazis. Give me one good reason that may stand up in court in front of reasonable people?

You can’t. But do not feel bad, - nobody can!

Firstly.
The argument I mostly get after showing these videos,is that how can you trust only one man?
The answer is:
1)-There are many Holocaust Deniers.
2)-If he is only one crazy man, Refuting him shall not be a problem.

Are you kidding? You post the videos done by David Irwing! You may as well post the videos by Kim Jong-un waxing about the how North Korea is a paradise for people to live in. LOL!

Let me say a few word about Mr. Irwing, - the laughing stock of history. The UK judge concluded that Irving was “anti-Semitic and racist” and “associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism”.

Irving had “deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence”, the judge added.

A self-trained historian – Irving did not even have an undergraduate degree in the subject – he had immersed himself in the Nazi period in a career that spanned decades.

He had caused a stir in 1963 with his first book about the Allied bombing of Dresden and enjoyed portraying himself as an embattled outsider who was able to unearth rare documents and who enjoyed jousting with the academic establishment.
His two-volume study, Hitler’s War, caused more controversy with its claim that the Führer did not know about the Final Solution.

Hitler in his book ‘My straggle’ advocated for precisely that, - the final solution! Hitler did sign an order for the T-4 euthanasia program in which as many as 100,000 German citizens who were thought to be ‘unworthy of life’ were murdered. When the German population caught on to what the Nazis were doing they protested and Hitler was forced to publicly back down and cancel the program (although it continued secretly in the camps). Having been embarrassed by a written order once, Hitler would be wary of doing it again.

No, - there is no Hitler’s signature on any available documents, but Hitler was either present when those decisions were made, as per multiple testimonies at Nuremberg, or the high ranking Nazis officials were the originators of the documents. Those officials, like Goring, Himmler, Bormann, etc. had their positions secured by the direct order from Hitler. You connect the dots!

So, - Mr. Irwing has no case. He is an illiterate dilettante. He cannot be taken seriously by anybody. However you found it useful to post Irving’s videos! What does it tell you about yourself?

This is the best argument I have produced.
He was the Chemist,who was sent by the US Government itself.

Wow, - another joke! Mr. Leuchter , - the chemist in your video, is another make-believe scientist. He is best known as author of the "Leuchter report," a pseudoscientific document that alleges there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau. In the past, he had been contracted by governmental authorities of several states of the United States to improve the design of instruments for capital punishment, but he no longer does so. Leuchter was criminally prosecuted for misrepresenting himself to penitentiaries as an "engineer," despite having no credentials whatever in engineering; Leuchter plea bargained with the district attorney's office, and received no jail time, but two years probation and a criminal conviction. He has also been accused of running a "death row shakedown," in which Leuchter threatened to testify for the defense in capital cases if he was not given contracts for his services by the state.

There goes another of your so-called evidence! Why do you post without research? This is embarrassing for you as a person, as it portrays you as less then intelligent!

And as far as the figure 6 Million is concerned,
I agree.
Around 6 Million Jews were killed DURING THE WHOLE COURSE OF THE WAR.
And majority of which,were caused by EPIDEMICS.
There were also Jewish killings in Soviet Union,but they were MOSLTY killed by their own people.The Bolsheviks had killed 66 Million of their own people.
Also,There were Jews who were deported from Germany to Soviet Union,and then they were killed.
But I challange you to produce me one Nazi Document that shows that Hitler was aware of these killings.
I am not a fanatic Hitler Supporter.
But we should not lie about anyone.

OK…here you go…the following is from a BBC report.

“…In February 1943 Auschwitz camp building authorities complained, the company that built the crematoria equipment, that they needed ventilation blowers 'most urgently'. Why the urgency, if this was an air-raid shelter, morgue, or delousing chamber? Deniers hypothesize that the urgency was a result of official fears that the camp would be hit with a typhus epidemic, which would cause a tremendous spike in the death toll. Without the proper ventilation system, the crematoria would not be able to operate.

Deniers try to bolster their argument about the typhus by pointing to documents which show that at this point in time the planned monthly incineration rate of Auschwitz had been boosted to 120,000 bodies. Deniers claim this was because of the typhus epidemic. However, the camp's projected population was 150,000. For the deniers' explanation to make sense, in one month an epidemic would have to kill four-fifths of Auschwitz's population and the Germans would have to repopulate the camp with 120,000 people. This claim exceeded the absolute worst case epidemiological scenario.

On 6 March 1943, one of the civilian employees working on the construction of Crematorium 2 referred to the air extraction system of 'Auskleidekeller [undressing cellar] 2'. No normal morgue could require an undressing room, particularly one that was 50 yards long. In that same month, there were at least four additional references to Auskleidekeller. It is telling that civilians who, according to the deniers, were in Birkenau to work on underground morgues, repeatedly referred not to morgues but to the ventilation of the 'undressing cellars'.

In the same letter the employee asked about preheating the areas that would be used as the gas chamber. If these were morgues they should be cooled, not preheated. Heating a gas chamber, on the other hand, would speed the gassing process by more quickly vaporising the gas from the Zyklon B.

A letter dated 31 March 1943, regarding Crematorium 3, spoke of it as having a Gastür, a gas door. Deniers argue that this could mean many things. But the inventory attached to the handover documents for the crematorium states that it had a Gasdichtetür, a 'gas-tight door'. One might argue about the meaning of Gastür, but it is hard to squabble over a gas-tight door.

Deniers have said for years that physical evidence is lacking because they have seen no holes in the roof of the Birkenau gas chamber where the Zyklon was poured in. (In some of the gas chambers the Zyklon B was poured in through the roof, while in others it was thrown in through the windows.) The roof was dynamited at war's end, and today lies broken in pieces, but three of the four original holes were positively identified in a recent paper. Their location in the concrete matches with eyewitness testimony, aerial photos from 1944, and a ground photo from 1943. The physical evidence shows unmistakably that the Zyklon holes were cast into the concrete when the building was constructed.

There is much additional evidence affirming Auschwitz/Birkenau's role as a killing centre. There is no reputable evidence that affirms the deniers' claims…”

My argument is simply this.
Governments can fake documents.Therefore,
there must be some secondary evidence to support them.
And in the case of Holocaust,The Scientific evidence and Even Common Sense,proves that the documents regarding Holocaust are false.
It also proves,that we should be vigilant of what the Governments preach us and teach us in our Textbooks.

Also there are Nazi Documents which clearly show that Hitler wanted to settle the Jewish issue 'after the war.'
It is to be noted that the Nazis were extremely confident of their ultimate triumph.As is shown from their documents.
Goebells even said:
"The end of the red Terror is very near."

I told you not to go ‘there’. But you did. Here is the proof for you:

“…The Auschwitz-Birkenau Death Books do not reflect the nearly 900,000 Jews who were murdered in the gas chambers upon arrival at the camp. Only those prisoners who were inducted into the slave labor pool (including some 230,000 Jews) were given numbers and only those prisoners were listed in the death certificates in the Death Books…”

“…The Death Books were compilations of the death certificates of those prisoners who were registered and given numbers and who died in Auschwitz-Birkenau between July 29, 1941, and December 31, 1943. Although several volumes did not survive the war, 346 of them did survive in the Gestapo office in Auschwitz-Birkenau.

The death certificates record the date of issue, first and last names, date, time and place of death, date and place of birth, and cause of death. The cause of death was usually fictitious. In January 1945, when the Russians liberated Auschwitz-Birkenau they took the Death Books back with them to Moscow where their existence was unknown until they were released in 1989 for use by researchers. In 1991 they were repatriated to the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum…”

"...Franciszek Piper, a Polish scholar and historian, conducted extensive research on the total number of people that were sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau from all over Europe from 1940 to 1945. Piper concluded that the total number of people who were sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau was at least 1,305,000. This figure included Jews, Gypsies, Soviet prisoners-of-war and non-Jewish prisoners of other nationalities. Inside this figure the total number of Jews sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau was about 1,095,000, of which at least 865,000 were murdered immediately.

The remaining Jews—some 230,000—were admitted to the camp as slave laborers.[9] Of those people admitted as slave laborers, some 188,000 were transferred to other camps and so were not directly murdered in Auschwitz-Birkenau. Among these were Anne Frank and her sister, Margot, who died in the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp and Elie Wiesel who was liberated in Buchenwald concentration camp in Germany.

Piper was able to trace the fate of the Jewish transports that arrived in Auschwitz-Birkenau. For instance, on August 10, 1943, a transport of about 3,000 Polish Jews from Sosnowitz, Poland: “Following the selection, 100 men, given Nos. 136303-136412 and 195 women, given Nos. 54332-54526, are admitted to the camp. The other almost 2,700 people are killed in the gas chambers.”



For more, look here: https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/ab2-death-books/

“…Benjamin Ferencz, the Chief Prosecutor in the Einsatzgruppen trial, added up the number in the 194 Einsatzgruppen reports. Some of the reports were not clear as to the numbers of Jews murdered, for instance, they simply stated that a town or area was “free of Jews.” Ferencz added up all the actual numbers and used the number ‘1’ for any description of murder which gave no actual number. He found that the numbers totaled over 1,000,000 Jewish men, women and children.

Given the way Ferencz had to count vague entries, is clear that the number is higher than the stark statistics in the reports.

A more recent and comprehensive study of the numbers reported in the OSRs confirms and increases Ferencz’s back of the envelope calculations. The figures below were compiled in combination with the Jäger and Stahlecker reports, which were submitted outside the OSR reporting process. Duplications and typographical errors have been removed. Meticulous calculations reveal the following as of December 1942:

Einsatzgruppe A: 363,337
Einsatzgruppe B: 134,000
Einsatzgruppe C: 118,341
Einsatzgruppe D: 91,728
Higher SS and Police Leaders and staff: 445,325

The total number of Jews murdered is at least 1,152,731 across the four Einsatzgruppen units and the Higher SS and Police Leaders and their staff.[4] It is important to remember that these numbers refer to all the victims, not just the Jews, although the vast majority of them were Jewish men, women and children.

The above number does not reflect the figures for the majority of the murders committed by local collaborator units under the control of the Einsatzgruppen, civil administrations, or the Romanian and Hungarian armies. Further, the figures do not include about 1,000,000 Jews who were worked to death or died of disease, cold or starvation in the ghettos or camps. Most responsible Holocaust scholars think that up to about 2,500,000 Jews may have been murdered in the East by the Germans by one method or another…”

For more look here: https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denia...number-killed/

The above is just but 2 examples of documented atrocities that totally debunk the claims of Holocaust deniers. Ask yourself this question, - what company do you keep? Do you want to be ridiculed in public for the views that you cannot support? I warned you not to go there…

If you really want the dose of reality, google ‘Nuremberg Trials’ or for a simpler fix look here:

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/

The above will stand up in any court room in a free world. And that is as good of an evidence as it needs to be, as it fulfills the burden of proof beyond the reasonable doubt. If you insist to ‘not believe it’ then your logic is not your friend, and your ability to reason comes into question. As a result, nobody, - no educated person, would want to discuss anything with you.

I recommend basic education to cure your ills, but I am inclined to give you a benefit of a doubt. Perhaps you simply failed to do a basic research, right?

[Abz2000]

Allah knows best, it is more important to seek the truth and follow it instead of demeaning oneself by debating on the basis of falsehood and absurdly irrational and illogical statements such as "I who claim to be agnostic claim that "G-d" revealed a meaningless law for racists who reject the wisdom and authority of "G-d", and those same racists are right in their unjust practices because they are sanctioned by G-d whom I and the both reject.
It might make sense to debate with a person who actually mistakenly believes in their false position in order to clarify the truth, but it's really very shallow when people attempt to wrangle based on what they themselves believe or claim to believe as being complete falsehood and vanities unless they are using the premise of the person they are debating for the sake of rationalizing through rhetoric, but when someone who claims to be an agnostic comes and tries debating Muslims based on statements which neither individual accepts as being true, you can be certain that it's a troll trying to bog you down and waste your time. You're better off spending that time in Allah's way.

Definition: G-d
www​.jewfaq.org/defs/g-d.htm
G-d: A way of avoiding writing a name of G-d, to avoid the risk of the sin of erasing or defacing the Name.

ag·nos·tic
aɡˈnästik/
noun
1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms: skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, cynic;

One is not expected to refute over and over again the totally and absurdly illogical claims of "history" back to Adam, Muslims liberated the land from Roman polytheist occupiers who had expelled the Jews, and they established the worship of the One God and respect towards all of God's messengers in the region with the latest message from God (which superseded the previous laws which jews themselves accept as being inapplicable) in place of pagan man-god worship, and later allowed the Jews back in only to be harassed and plotted against by a bunch of racist trolls who have no understanding of justice.
I'm certain that there are a lot of native american relics all over north central america, would the americans give the land to the native tribes and move back to England?

And never will they seek it (death) because of what their own hands have sent forth, and Allah does not guide a people unjust.

And if at any time you are incited from Satan by an incitement, seek refuge with Allah, verily He is the hearing, the knowing.

Best thing to say is: repent before the wrath of Allah arrives upon the unjust.

[ethnhunt]

I can, I have, and I choose to do no further. I did substantiate my views while we were actually talking, you simply rejected everything I said as plainly untrue. A scorched-earth, deny-everything game any idiot can play. A game two can play. Go on, provide an academic-publication-level citation for every single assertion you've made in this entire thread, or concede defeat

Ok…I took the time to re-read your posts. I still see no substance in your assertions. All you do is to say, that Chomsky is famous and therefore his political views are somehow credible. This is all you say! Yes, Chomsky is famous, but his politics are not. I do not reject Chomsky scholarship. I reject Finkelstein’s scholarship! You failed to read my post.

I reject Chomsky politics because it leads to the demise of Israel, by ‘other’ means. Anybody, who understand the Palestinian Authority strategy would understand that Chomsky advocates the same eventuality, - the Middle East without Israel. Chomsky does it in a more subtle way then Finkelstein, perhaps because he is much smarter then Finkelstein. Still, in a final analysis, no argument that Chomsky, or you, can be put forward if it leads to the de-facto replacement of Israel by another purely Arab state.

Is it really that difficult for you to see? Why do you accuse me of “…scorched-earth, deny-everything game…”? Did I not just now substantiate my point ONCE AGAIN? What “…scorched-earth…”?

I don't abdicate, I choose not to play. A winning move in the right context, as the famous movie quote goes.

Winning move??? You are funny! Playing is hard! Again, where are your thoughts? Not Mr. Chomsky’s thoughts, - YOURS! Where is your logic, where is your argument, as it pertains to Israeli-Palestinians conflict? I see no views of your own, - all you say is what others say. I know, - it is easier that way.

I was going to reply to you, but your behavior reminded me of why I got fed up with trying to have a serious discussion with you in the first place. Your outright lies regarding the actual academic standing of Chomsky and Finkelstein is not only representative of your disdain of those you disagree with, but your dishonesty and evident lack of interest in honest discussion. You called Chomsky an academic clown and degrees gotten under him not worth the paper printed on. When I pointed out that no, he's actually the world's most cited academic, you made a creative "clarification" that you only meant a clown regarding his political dissent. Which was a nice try, but no cigar. Your original statement referred to his actual academic work, otherwise the point about degrees gotten under him (which would be in the field of linguistics, his actual academic field) being worthless wouldn't be applicable.

You are getting your information from ‘MIT news’ that were published in1992! Yes, Chomsky is sited often in a field of humanities and linguistics, - nothing else! Not politics! He is not an expert on Middle East. He has an opinion on Middle Eastern affairs, just like you do. And his opinion is not any more useful than yours or mine.

You are better off quoting Yasser Arafat, - at least Mr. Arafat had a practical, if not academic, insight into the Arab-Israeli problems. Or you might quote from current PA president, Mr. Abbas who has a more academic insight here since his Ph.D. thesis, entitled “The Connection between the Nazis and the Leaders of the Zionist Movement”, gives him credibility, although I am saying it with sarcasm. Both of those individuals have more to say then Mr. Chomsky, simply due to their credentials in the field.

I disagree with Chomsky’s work as it pertains to Artificial Intelligence. I also disagree with his political views. I am not qualified to comment on his work in linguistics. However I am not alone, - he has his critics in his own field.

“…Chomsky remains the most influential figure in theoretical linguistics, known to the public for his ideas that language is a cognitive system and the realisation of an innate faculty. While those ideas enjoy a wide currency, many linguists reject them. His theories have come under criticism from those, such as the cognitive scientist Steven Pinker, who were once close to him. Paul Postal, one of Chomsky’s earliest colleagues, stresses the tendency for the grandiloquence of Chomsky’s claims to increase as he addresses non-specialist audiences.

Frederick Newmeyer, a supporter of Chomsky’s ideas until the mid-1990s, notes: “One is left with the feeling that Chomsky’s ever-increasingly triumphalistic rhetoric is inversely proportional to the actual empirical results that he can point to.”

Chomsky’s first book on politics, American Power and the New Mandarins (1969) grew from protest against the Vietnam war. But Chomsky went beyond the standard left critique of US imperialism to the belief that “what is needed [in the US] is a kind of denazification.” This diagnosis is central to Chomsky’s political output. While he does not depict the US as an overtly repressive society—instead, it is a place where “money and power are able to filter out the news fit to print and marginalise dissent”—he does liken America’s conduct to that of Nazi Germany. In his newly published Imperial Ambitions, he maintains that “the pretences for the invasion [of Iraq] are no more convincing than Hitler’s.”

In The Prosperous Few and the Restless Many (1994), Chomsky considered whether the west should bomb Serb encampments to stop the dismemberment of Bosnia, and by an absurdly tortuous route concluded “it’s not so simple.” By the time of the Kosovo war, this prophet of the amoral quietism of the Major government had progressed to depicting Milosevic’s regime as a wronged party: “Nato had no intention of living up to the scraps of paper it had signed, and moved at once to violate them.”

After 9/11, Chomsky deployed fanciful arithmetic to draw an equivalence between the destruction of the twin towers and the Clinton administration’s bombing of Sudan—in which a pharmaceutical factory, wrongly identified as a bomb factory, was destroyed and a nightwatchman killed. When the US-led coalition bombed Afghanistan, Chomsky depicted mass starvation as a conscious choice of US policy, declaring that “plans are being made and programmes implemented on the assumption that they may lead to the death of several million people in the next couple of weeks… very casually, with no particular thought about it.” His judgement was offered without evidence.

In A New Generation Draws the Line: Kosovo, East Timor and the Standards of the West (2000), Chomsky wryly challenged advocates of Nato intervention in Kosovo to urge also the bombing of Jakarta, Washington and London in protest at Indonesia’s subjugation of East Timor. If necessary, citizens should be encouraged to do the bombing themselves, “perhaps joining the Bin Laden network.” Shortly after 9/11, the political theorist Jeffrey Isaac wrote of this thought experiment that, while it was intended metaphorically, “One wonders if Chomsky ever considered the possibility that someone lacking in his own logical rigour might read his book and carelessly draw the conclusion that the bombing of Washington is required.”

This episode gives an indication of the destructiveness of Chomsky’s advocacy even on issues where he has been right. Chomsky was an early critic of Indonesia’s brutal annexation of East Timor in 1975 in the face of the indolence, at best, of the Ford administration. The problem is not these criticisms, but Chomsky’s later use of them to rationalise his opposition to western efforts to halt genocide elsewhere. (Chomsky buttresses his argument, incidentally, with a peculiarly dishonest handling of source material. He manipulates a self-mocking reference in the memoirs of the then US ambassador to the UN, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, by running separate passages together as if they are sequential and attributing to Moynihan comments he did not make, to yield the conclusion that Moynihan took pride in Nazi-like policies. The victims of cold war realpolitik are real enough without such rhetorical expedients.)

If Chomsky’s political writings expressed merely an idée fixe, they would be a footnote in his career as a public intellectual. But Chomsky has a dedicated following among those of university education, and especially of university age, for judgements that have the veneer of scholarship and reason yet verge on the pathological. He once described the task of the media as “to select the facts, or to invent them, in such a way as to render the required conclusions not too transparently absurd—at least for properly disciplined minds.” There could scarcely be a nicer encapsulation of his own practice.”

I am saying AGAIN, - that Chomsky the linguist is a world’s famous academic. Chomsky the political scientists is not. In my opinion, and that is MY OPINION to which I am entitled, and as a graduate of MIT, I feel that studying under Chomsky is not a credible path to a successful career, given Chomsky’s, as an arm-chaired political scientist, sunken reputation. OK? You may disagree and I am fine with that.

I'm done wasting my time on you. You can choose to learn something from how our exchange ended up like it did, or you can try to spin it as a win by walkover for you. Frankly, I find the latter far more probable. If so, you'll get the last word in, good luck making the most of it. Toodles.

I am around if you change your mind. Cheers…

[MuhammadHamza1]

My reaction after reading your post.
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...4YQ8WfVeoOes7g

[MuhammadHamza1]

Let us break down what you have written one by one.
1)-The Trial of David Irvings.
You people have criminalized Holocaust denial in most European countries.What are you afraid of?
Now the trial.
You make me laugh.
In a society that criminalizes Holocaust denial,you think the Court will do justice?
Do you think the courts are impartial?
If you think I am a stupid man by saying above mentioned things,
Then end the debate and refute those facts with actual evidences not some quotes of some people.
Also,How about this?
https://youtu.be/nyeSdtEiEk8

Should the Courts have not allowed Holocaust Denial under free speech?
Courts are not impartial.
There is also an easy way,
You can prove what I posted wrong.

An example of how courts are not impartial is shown by the fact that Ernst Zundell was not allowed to show all his evidence to court during his first trial.What are you afraid of?
And then this happened.
https://youtu.be/G_EMnWi38JA

And as for the trial,
Listen to This.
https://youtu.be/TzxI93ECcJE

[MuhammadHamza1]

This is the nail in the coffin.I am not saying it is the fianl one.

[ethnhunt]

Let us break down what you have written one by one.
1)-The Trial of David Irvings.
You people have criminalized Holocaust denial in most European countries.What are you afraid of?

Afraid???? The people of Europe are not afraid. They feel however, that the SHAME of having the Nazis run Germany and perpetrating one of the worst genocides in the history of the planet (perhaps Timur 650 years did worst) is something worth reflecting upon.

This reflection is an admission of the guilt and the statement that the Nazis are not coming back. So the parliaments of Germany and a few others took steps by making Nazi ideology and their propaganda illegal. Holocaust denial is a part of that propaganda, because it says that the crime never happened, but it did!

This is not about fear. This is about the lesson that history taught the Germans. Remember that people who do not make peace with their past will never have any future. I commend the Germans for enacting the law that prohibits the Nazi salute and prohibits the denial of Holocaust.

The Germans know much better than Mr Irwing what Holocaust really was. Countless German historians and experts are in agreement that the Nazis killed 6 million Jews. This is supported by overwhelming data from German archives dating back to the times of World War 2. You cannot argue against this. This is why Mr. Irwing lost all his law challenges in courts. He has NO CASE!

Your videos you posted are total nonsense. What are you doing here, - you are posting the videos of Irwing repeating his dogma and then you are posting the videos of a person who calls himself and chemist, but he has no degree and no knowledge, the person who was successfully prosecuted in court for fraud, and you want me to take THAT as a SOLID evidence???? Are you kidding or you think that I am stupid?

Now the trial.
You make me laugh.
In a society that criminalizes Holocaust denial,you think the Court will do justice?
Do you think the courts are impartial?
If you think I am a stupid man by saying above mentioned things,
Then end the debate and refute those facts with actual evidences not some quotes of some people.

The courts in the Western system of jurisprudence are as impartial as any court can possibly be. The courts are separated from the politics. The judges, by definition, do not care for political implications, they only care for the law. And the law only cares for evidence and what is in the best interest of the public, i.e. the public policy.

Can you understand that the Holocaust evidence is so solid that any law school student can try the case in any country in the West and WIN! You do not even have to be a lawyer and WIN!

Can you understand that the people who committed the crimes ADMITTED their actions in public and their testimony were supported by written evidence from archives with necessary signatures? It was further supported by eyewitness accounts that were in TOTAL agreement with evidence and testimonies. Further supported by videos shot by Germans at the time!!!!!

It was impossible for Mr. Irwing and the ‘company’ to argue against this, even though he tried…and failed.

In the British legal system, it is not enough to admit the wrongdoing. There are must be the preponderance of the evidence corroborating the wrongdoing. The confession is only a part, - a small part of the total picture. There is also an appeal process, whereby an impartial Court of Appeals looks at the case on evidence ONLY.

Tried to understand what I am saying to you! The above mentioned procedure has been followed to the letter in all Holocaust denial cases. I would like you to look at the case of Mr. Demyanuk, who was tried and released by Israeli court for the luck of evidence on appeal! He was a guard in one of the camps.

Western process is as full-proof as you can possible make it full-proof. When you say that the courts are biased or NOT impartial, you are appearing less then intelligent, - a person who is simpleminded. I hope that you are smarter than this. By implying that Western legal system is faulty you are saying that YOU know better. Well, - I would really like to know what you would suggest here, - go ahead, - make it better! Best minds that our civilization has generated made that system and it works very well.

Should the Courts have not allowed Holocaust Denial under free speech?
Courts are not impartial.
There is also an easy way,
You can prove what I posted wrong.

An example of how courts are not impartial is shown by the fact that Ernst Zundell was not allowed to show all his evidence to court during his first trial.What are you afraid of?
And then this happened.

Zundell had no evidence to show! Zundell’s documents were deemed to be an insult to the court and the memory of the victims. The judge looked at it and had a good laugh. Let me give you an analogy here, - Zundell’s ‘evidence’ were like you trying to tell the judge that you did not steel the goods while holding the goods in your hand and the tape of your doing the deed are being broadcast on the TV. Still, - Zundell appealed!

This was NEVER the case of Free Speech. You have no idea what you ARE TALKING ABOUT. Look it up… Zundeell appeals all the way to Canadian Supreme Court. His case was heard, He was never denied his constitutional rights. The Judge found that Zundell’s book, when examined, "misrepresented the work of historians, misquoted witnesses, fabricated evidence, and cited non-existent authorities."



It seems to me that you have no education when it comes to law. Your ability to think in a logical manner is highly suspect. You do no research when you post. You are blind to the indisputable facts. You are arrogantly claim that ‘you know better’ than all of us put together. I feel sorry for you…

[Abz2000]

@ethnhunt I know people don't normally ask you for this kind of favour...Would you be kind enough to send me the latest copy of the hasbara handbook, I require it for additional research and the thread I'm posting on here:

Iman vs Propaganda



Sincerely,

Abz

[Freedom]

Terrorism will never work against Israel. At this point, the Palestinians should be grateful for any concessions Israel grants. It's clear the rest of the Arab and Muslim world are not gonna come to "save" the Palestinians...ever. Plus, if the roles were reversed, the Arabs would have long ago slaughtered the rebelling inhabitants. That's clear from the way we see Arab rulers (Saddam, Assad, Mubarak, Baghdadi, Sisi, Gaddafi, etc) treat their inhabitants who rebel. Now imagine how bad they would treat infidel jews during rebellion.

[Abz2000]

Terrorism will never work against Israel. At this point, the Palestinians should be grateful for any concessions Israel grants. It's clear the rest of the Arab and Muslim world are not gonna come to "save" the Palestinians...ever. Plus, if the roles were reversed, the Arabs would have long ago slaughtered the rebelling inhabitants. That's clear from the way we see Arab rulers (Saddam, Assad, Mubarak, Baghdadi, Sisi, Gaddafi, etc) treat their inhabitants who rebel. Now imagine how bad they would treat infidel jews during rebellion.

You will indeed find that Muslims (the real ones and not the agent provocateur hypocrites who work for secularists to stir confusion) are just, and that they will respond to injustice with firm up to equal magnitude retaliation even if it means martyrdom in the process, so do not for a second think that playing the unjust tyrant card will bring you or your families security. I've witnessed too many unjust killings of children by the israeli jewish zionists to really care about just upto equal retaliation and it's consequences. Neither heaven, not earth will shed a tear for you oh unjust creeping yahood serpent scum.

[Freedom]

You will indeed find that Muslims (the real ones and not the agent provocateur hypocrites who work for secularists to stir confusion) are just, and that they will respond to injustice with firm up to equal magnitude retaliation even if it means martyrdom in the process, so do not for a second think that playing the unjust tyrant card will bring you or your families security. I've witnessed too many unjust killings of children by the israeli jewish zionists to really care about just upto equal retaliation and it's consequences. Neither heaven, not earth will shed a tear for you oh unjust creeping yahood serpent scum.

I'm not a Jew, but from what I seen, the Jews treat Palestinians better than Arabs treat other Arabs.

[Abz2000]

I'm not a Jew, but from what I seen, the Jews treat Palestinians better than Arabs treat other Arabs.

You seem to be well scripted in delusory propaganda, though it's transparent, luckily i won't be sidetracked by such shallow arguments which are used to try to cover evil deeds. I'll treat your mom better than your dad treats her if you want, would you give her to me? (Bear in mind that I claim that your dad treats her like a dustbin).

[Freedom]

You seem to be well scripted in delusory propaganda, though it's transparent, luckily i won't be sidetracked by such shallow arguments which are used to try to cover evil deeds. I'll treat your mom better than your dad treats her if you want, would you give her to me? (Bear in mind that I claim that your dad treats her like a dustbin).

I'll ignore your nonsense analogy.

We can focus on how Arab states and armed groups have treated rebellious forces within, and from that we can make an inference as to how Palestinians would treat Jews if the roles were reversed.

[Abz2000]

I'll ignore your nonsense analogy.

We can focus on how Arab states and armed groups have treated rebellious forces within, and from that we can make an inference as to how Palestinians would treat Jews if the roles were reversed.

Pay attention shill, I'm waiting for ethnhunt to send me a copy of the latest hasbara handbook and don't want to waste time with loads of nonsense to and fro banter, I know your type are good at it, but it's totally off topic. You have no moral authority to claim that you have a right to continue injustice in the name of being better than your own shills who you've been installing as secularist puppets in Muslim countries, we'll send you their heads as a sign of sincerity to the planet if you stop meddling and provocations.
Btw, we take in and protect refuseniks who face persecution from your handlers.
Can you send me a pdf version of yours?

[Freedom]

Pay attention shill, I'm waiting for ethnhunt to send me a copy of the latest hasbara handbook and don't want to waste time with loads of nonsense to and fro banter, I know your type are good at it, but it's totally off topic. You have no moral authority to claim that you have a right to continue injustice in the name of being better than your own shills who you've been installing as secularist puppets in Muslim countries, we'll send you their heads as a sign of sincerity to the planet if you stop meddling and provocations.
Btw, we take in and protect refuseniks who face persecution from your handlers.
Can you send me a pdf version of yours?

Do you have any interest in discussing the merit of the arguments I make? Or are you only interested in accusing me of being a paid shill?

[Abz2000]

It's a bit foolish to pretend that I'm having a real discussion or debate when I know how many of you are paid to sit behind computers and derail topics with false arguments with the aim of making injustice palatable or at least acceptable, like in the first comment you made on the previous page - for hours and months on end. That would be like bleating at a goat that the handlers send in order to keep me busy, and once I've tired him out, or even if he dies, they'll just send another with the same appearance (account credentials), and I really wouldn't be getting very far other than bleating at a goat.

If however you were speaking rationally and justly with the aim of justice as the outcome, I wouldn't have a problem spending a few hours every day discussing ways of finding a solution. Savvy?

saying "is so" repeatedly to repeated replies of "not so" by trolls is really futile, and anyone who sees such a fiasco and continues to waste time is only disrespecting oneself and admitting that their own time and effort is of low value, so don't expect a reply from me if you are going to post unintelligent propaganda comments with the aim of creating illusions that injustice is somehow acceptable based on false relativity.

Now can I have the handbook please....

[Freedom]

It's a bit foolish to pretend that I'm having a real discussion or debate when I know how many of you are paid to sit behind computers and derail topics with false arguments with the aim of making injustice palatable or at least acceptable, like in the first comment you made on the previous page - for hours and months on end. That would be like bleating at a goat that the handlers send in order to keep me busy, and once I've tired him out, or even if he dies, they'll just send another with the same appearance (account credentials), and I really wouldn't be getting very far other than bleating at a goat.

If however you were speaking rationally and justly with the aim of justice as the outcome, I wouldn't have a problem spending a few hours every day discussing ways of finding a solution. Savvy?

saying "is so" repeatedly to repeated replies of "not so" by trolls is really futile, and anyone who sees such a fiasco and continues to waste time is only disrespecting oneself and admitting that their own time and effort is of low value, so don't expect a reply from me if you are going to post unintelligent propaganda comments with the aim of creating illusions that injustice is somehow acceptable based on false and relativity.

Now can I have the handbook please....

Irrelevant.

[Abz2000]

Irrelevant.

Tell your supervisor or manager to reassign to me someone who actually believes what they say, and actually seeks a just solution.

http://www.theonion.com/article/fbi-...k-and-en-35788







On a personal note, aside from work, read this and ponder over it, repent to God, it will be best.
Pass it on to the others at the workplace too, you never know, they may have some self respect and find reason to seek salvation.

10. Behold, thy Lord called Moses: "Go to the people of iniquity,-
11. "The people of the Pharaoh: will they not fear Allah."
12. He said: "O my Lord! I do fear that they will charge me with falsehood:
13. "My breast will be straitened. And my speech may not go (smoothly): so send unto Aaron.
14. "And (further), they have a charge of crime against me; and I fear they may slay me."
15. Allah said: "By no means! proceed then, both of you, with Our Signs; We are with you, and will listen (to your call).
16. "So go forth, both of you, to Pharaoh, and say: 'We have been sent by the Lord and Cherisher of the worlds;
17. "'Send thou with us the Children of Israel.'"
18. (Pharaoh) said: "Did we not cherish thee as a child among us, and didst thou not stay in our midst many years of thy life?
19. "And thou didst a deed of thine which (thou knowest) thou didst, and thou art an ungrateful (wretch)!"
20. Moses said: "I did it then, when I was in error.
21. "So I fled from you (all) when I feared you; but my Lord has (since) invested me with judgment (and wisdom) and appointed me as one of the apostles.
22. "And this is the favour with which thou dost reproach me,- that thou hast enslaved the Children of Israel!"
23. Pharaoh said: "And what is the 'Lord and Cherisher of the worlds'?"
24. (Moses) said: "The Lord and Cherisher of the heavens and the earth, and all between,- if ye want to be quite sure."
25. (Pharaoh) said to those around: "Did ye not listen (to what he says)?"
26. (Moses) said: "Your Lord and the Lord of your fathers from the beginning!"
27. (Pharaoh) said: "Truly your apostle who has been sent to you is a veritable madman!"
28. (Moses) said: "Lord of the East and the West, and all between! if ye only had sense!"
29. (Pharaoh) said: "If thou dost put forward any god other than me, I will certainly put thee in prison!"
30. (Moses) said: "Even if I showed you something clear (and) convincing?"
31. (Pharaoh) said: "Show it then, if thou tellest the truth!"
32. So (Moses) threw his rod, and behold, it was a serpent, plain (for all to see)!
33. And he drew out his hand, and behold, it was white to all beholders!
34. (Pharaoh) said to the Chiefs around him: "This is indeed a sorcerer well- versed:
35. "His plan is to get you out of your land by his sorcery; then what is it ye counsel?"
36. They said: "Keep him and his brother in suspense (for a while), and dispatch to the Cities heralds to collect-
37. "And bring up to thee all (our) sorcerers well-versed."
38. So the sorcerers were got together for the appointment of a day well-known,
39. And the people were told: "Are ye (now) assembled?-
40. "That we may follow the sorcerers (in religion) if they win?"
41. So when the sorcerers arrived, they said to Pharaoh: "Of course - shall we have a (suitable) reward if we win?
42. He said: "Yea, (and more),- for ye shall in that case be (raised to posts) nearest (to my person)."
43. Moses said to them: "Throw ye - that which ye are about to throw!"
44. So they threw their ropes and their rods, and said: "By the might of Pharaoh, it is we who will certainly win!"
45. Then Moses threw his rod, when, behold, it straightway swallows up all the falsehoods which they fake!
46. Then did the sorcerers fall down, prostrate in adoration,
47. Saying: "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,
48. "The Lord of Moses and Aaron."
49. Said (Pharaoh): "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? surely he is your leader, who has taught you sorcery! but soon shall ye know! Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will cause you all to die on the cross!"
50. They said: "No matter! for us, we shall but return to our Lord!
51. "Only, our desire is that our Lord will forgive us our faults, that we may become foremost among the believers!"

From Quran, Chapter 26

[ethnhunt]

@ethnhunt I know people don't normally ask you for this kind of favour...Would you be kind enough to send me the latest copy of the hasbara handbook, I require it for additional research...

Sincerely,

Abz

Abz,

I had to look up what 'hazbara' is. Its fine with me. I am not a Jew, nor am I an Israeli. Your insinuation that I post here, because a 3rd party induces me too, is plain wrong. I do not do that.

It seems to me that you are afraid to argue on merit, because you have nothing of substance to say. So far all I see in your posts is sophism and demagoguery.

Sincerely,

etn

[Abz2000]

These verses would also be more instructive:

57. He said: "Have you come to drive us out of our land with your magic, O Moses?
58. "But we can surely produce magic to match yours! So make an appointment between us and you, which we shall not fail to keep - neither we nor you - in a place where both shall have even chances."
59. Moses said: "Your appointment is the Day of the Festival, and let the people be assembled when the sun is well up."
60. So Pharaoh withdrew: He concerted his plan, and then came (back).
61. Moses said to him: Woe to you! Do not invent a lie against Allah, lest He destroy you (at once) utterly by chastisement: he has failed who invents!"
62. So they disputed, one with another, over their affair, but they kept their talk secret.
63. They said: "These two are certainly (expert) magicians: their object is to drive you out from your land with their magic, and to do away with your most cherished institutions.
64. "Therefore concert your plan, and then assemble in (serried) ranks: He wins (all along) today who gains the upper hand."
65. They said: "O Moses! whether do you want to throw (first) or do you prefer that we be the first to throw?"
66. He said, "rather, you throw first!" Then behold their ropes and their rods-so it seemed to him on account of their magic - began to be in lively motion!
67. So Moses conceived in his mind a (sort of) fear.
68. We said: "Fear not! for you have indeed the upper hand:
69. "Throw that which is in you right hand: Quickly will it swallow up that which they have faked what they have faked is but a magician's trick: and the magician thrives not, (no matter) where he goes /what level he attains."

From Quran, Chapter 20

Abz,

I had to look up what 'hazbara' is.

I didn't write "hazbara" I wrote "hasbara", and the search on google for the term "hasbara" as of 26 july 2017 only returns results with "hasbara" on the first three pages which I checked. Now that I searched "hazbara" the majority of results were in a foreign language, interesting......though one one them was definitely in english
Zionist Hazbara Troll Has a Melt Down.......

Next time you ask me for a link to the noble Quran, I'll tell you I had to look up what a Quran is. That ought to explain a lot.

Its fine with me.

What's "it"?

I am not a Jew, nor am I an Israeli.

Hmmmm, an agnostic who uses "G-d", do the computers at your place automatically censor the term "God" and change it to "G-d" or is it the central server?

Pro-Israel activists can use the 'plain folks' technique by speaking as a 'person from the street'
whilst supporting Israel. The 'average guy in the street' would happily condemn terrorism in
all its forms and support 'Western ideals'. In the context of a debate on the Middle East, this
can easily be equated with support for Israel.

.......Bandwagon
Most people, when in doubt, are happy to do what other people are doing. This is the
bandwagon effect. People are happy to be part of the crowd, and subtle manipulators can
play on this desire by emphasizing the large size of their support. Although it is reasonable
that people are given a chance to find out how many other supporters a speaker or movement
has, often it is possible to create the impression of extensive support - through gathering all
supporters in one place, or through poorly conducted opinion polls - in an attempt to persuade
people who are keen to follow the crowd.
Israel activists can commission opinion polls amongst groups who favour Israel, and use these
to give the impression that Israel is the 'team to support'. Demonstrations, and even photos
that give the impression of large numbers can help to create the impression that Israel is even
more popular than it is.
Remember that playing with perceptions of numbers supporting a cause can be problematic if
this means that genuine supporters become complacent.

Palestinian activists' success at creating the impression that they have enormous support is
hard to counter.
The most obvious and most effective response is to try and seem even better
supported. Otherwise, simply start to deal with the issues, especially using 'plain folks'
techniques, to gain support that is committed, and not just jumping on the bandwagon.

Hasbara handbook 2009

My request for a link to the latest version still stands.

Your insinuation that I post here, because a 3rd party induces me too, is plain wrong.

What do you mean by "induce" - does that include pay, love, warped bias?

I do not do that.

Do what? Post totally derailing and unjustly biased comments that appear to come right out of the hasbara handbook, yet are devoid of reality? Such as:

The following set of quotes between dashed lines ---- is just the beginning of a post reply and is not picked and chosen from seperate parts, I have linked the page in order to maintain context and allow readers to make references:

--------------

(Not?) Etn (Yahoo?) says:

Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'

I have NO IDEA why are you posting all those videos.

What are you trying to say? I can post videos too! I can tell you a lot about how Palestinian Arabs kill Israeli civilians in HUGE numbers. I can tell you about incitement to violence from Palestinian Authority and post VIDEOS of sermons from many imams that call for murderer of Jews. I can do all of this, but to what end?

The manual says: (I feel like Bruce Forsyth - but I'm not,
..........honest)
(Schnide ref to: Family fortunes - "play your cards right")

To disguise point scoring, comments need to seem to be logical, and to follow from what was
said before. Use phrases that subtly change the agenda or reframe the debate to do this:

"Well, that's not really the right question…"
"I don't think we should be focusing on …, the real point is that…"
"That's an interesting point, but I don't think we can really begin to address it before
we think about…"
"You seem to assume that …, an assumption that's impossible to share. Really, we
need to consider…"
"It's a shame that the Palestinian leadership have led the Palestinian people down a
dead-end, where conflict and violence leads to tragic situations. Things would have
been better if…"
"I really think that we would all be better served by looking forward instead of back at
the things that happened over 50 years ago. The past is important to note, but we
have to move on in an attempt for peace. That's why I think we would be better
served talking about…"
The examples above ‘field’ the comments that precede them by giving the appearance of
addressing what was said.


They then go on to reframe the discussion by setting a new
agenda.
What Points To Make
Point scoring needs to be focused. Because the people listening to 'point scoring' are only
paying partial attention, only two or three points have a chance of 'sticking'.

For this reason, focus point scoring on a few points supporting Israel, and a few points pointing out
weaknesses in Palestinian positions.

These points should be made again and again, in as
many forums as possible. If people hear something often enough they come to believe it.
Attempts to make too many different points will result in the audience remembering nothing.

......try to disguise any points as questions.

Hasbara handbook 2009

Maybe go research "ghetto uprisings"
I'll post some details so that readers can ponder over whether or not the nazi violence was the same as - or comparable to - that of those whom the nazis referred to as terrorists:

RESISTANCE IN GHETTOS

Between 1941 and 1943, underground resistance movements developed in approximately 100 ghettos in Nazi-occupied eastern Europe (about one-fourth of all ghettos), especially in Poland, Lithuania, Belorussia, and the Ukraine. Their main goals were to organize uprisings, break out of the ghettos, and join partisan units in the fight against the Germans........

........ Weapons were smuggled into ghettos. Inhabitants in the ghettos of Vilna, Mir, Lachva (Lachwa), Kremenets, Czestochowa, Nesvizh, Sosnowiec, and Tarnow, among others, resisted with force when the Germans began to deport ghetto populations. In Bialystok, the underground staged an uprising just before the final destruction of the ghetto in September 1943. Most of the ghetto fighters, primarily young men and women, died during the fighting.

The Warsaw ghetto uprising in the spring of 1943 was the largest single revolt by Jews. Hundreds of Jews fought the Germans and their auxiliaries in the streets of the ghetto.

Next, video added to prove that abuses are ordered by the criminal yahood leaders:

The videos you posted are taken out of context for the most part.
Please understand that IDF has no standing orders to kill Palestinian Arabs.
However, nobody would deny that IDF pushes Arabs to the brink.
It’s a complicated situation and that is what happens when you have a dispute.
And in this dispute it is the Arabs who have no desire to settle the dispute.
So, they get pushed and controlled by the stronger power.
When the Arabs decide to negotiate, everything that you object and post about will stop.

There are other videos, you know…there are other points of view and also there is ample evidence that the lives of ordinary Palestinian Arabs have improved dramatically under Israeli control. Here are some factual observation I collected for you:

Criticise Actions not Existence
In general the role of an Israel activist is to defend Israel (as a country), but not necessarily to
endorse every action of the Government, Army or people.
If a Jewish activist genuinely disagrees with some action, it is legitimate to say so, provided this is done in a way that
defends and supports Israel as a country, and attempts to place the action in the context of a complex situation.
This can be done by reframing comments, for example:

"I understand where you are coming from, personally I also think that it was wrong of the army to destroy those houses, however you should also consider that Israelis are under a daily threat of
terrorist attack and…"

For more on this point see Communication Styles: Point Scoring and Genuine Debate – p. 8

Regarding "negotiations" I think most intelligent people who are thirty and above have become tired of the CLICHE, and are aware of how it is used to push the illusion that things are about to be sorted and that there is no need for international uproar, and also how these "negotiations" and "the peace process" are used to bait people whilst making unacceptable demands with the express aim of getting the Palestian people and whatever leadership they have to reject them - so that they can be portrayed as unreasonable in absence of proper context, and can then be falsely portrayed as "aggressors" when they continue the lawful and just struggle in Allah :swt: path.

Below are some suggested arguments from the hasbara handbook:

Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian leadership can't be trusted. They have repeatedly broken
promises, and gone against the Oslo Accords. Arafat agrees to things, and then attempts to
go back on them, including agreeing to negotiate over the Israeli presence in the West Bank
and Gaza, and then declaring that violence is justified by this presence, before negotiations
are concluded.

Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian leadership promote violence and refuse negotiation. Arafat
rejected the generous offer Barak made at Camp David outright, and wasn't even interested in
negotiations. Arafat is brutalizing his own people by teaching and promoting violence in
schools, the media, and political forums.
Hasbara handbook 2009

Also

......you have to disarm them from their suspicions before they will be open to learning new facts about Israel.
The first step to winning trust and friends for Israel is showing that you care about peace
for BOTH Israelis and Palestinians and, in particular, a better future for every child.
Indeed, the sequence of your conversation is critical and you must start with empathy for
BOTH sides first. Open your conversation with strong proven messages such as:
“Israel is committed to a better future for everyone – Israelis and Palestinians
alike. Israel wants the pain and suffering to end, and is committed to working
with the Palestinians toward a peaceful, diplomatic solution where both sides can
have a better future. Let this be a time of hope and opportunity for both the
Israeli and the Palestinian people.”

Use Empathy:
Even the toughest questions can be turned around if you are willing to
accept the notion that the other side has at least some validity. If you begin your response
with “I understand and I sympathize with those who…”
you are already building the credibility you will need for your audience to empathize and agree with you.
Indeed, if the heart of your communications is a chorus of finger pointing of “Israel is right, they are wrong” then you will lose more support for Israel than you will gain.
Some people who ALREADY support Israel may nod their heads and say “way to
go,” but people who are not already supportive of Israel will be turned off.

HASBARA GLOBAL LANGUAGE DICTIONARY 2009

Obviously because people will say: LIAR.

5)

Don’t pretend that Israel is without mistakes or fault. It’s not true and no one believes it.
Pretending Israel is free from errors does not pass the smell test. It will only make your listeners question the veracity of everything else you say.
Admitting that Israel has and continues to make mistakes does not undermine the overall justice of Israel’s goals: peace and security and a better quality of life for BOTH sides.
Use humility. “I know that in trying to defend its children and citizens from terrorists
that Israel has accidentally hurt innocent people. I know it, and I’m sorry for it. But
what can Israel do to defend itself?

HASBARA GLOBAL LANGUAGE DICTIONARY 2009

Be careful of your tone. A patronizing, parental tone will turn Americans and Europeans off. We’re at a time in history when Jews in general (and Israelis in particular) are no longer perceived as the persecuted people. In fact, among American and European audiences—sophisticated, educated, opinionated, non-Jewish audiences— Israelis are often seen as the occupiers and the aggressors. With that kind of baggage, it is critical that messages from the pro-Israel spokespeople not come across as supercilious or condescending.
WORDS THAT DON’T WORK
“We are prepared to allow them to build…...”
Israelis cannot “allow” the Palestinians to move forward. They cannot “permit” or “control” or “instruct” the Palestinians to establish commerce, transportation, or a government. If the Palestinians are to be seen as a trusted partner on the path to peace, they must not be subordinated, in perception or in practice, by the Israelis. There is anxiety around activity in the Middle East. The way you talk about it should not add fuel to the fire.

HASBAEA GLOBAL LANGUAGE DICTIONARY 2009

Here's a classic example of feigned remorse and empathy and humility straight out of the textbook:



But then the feined P.R humility vanishes and ridicule appears when it is suggested that the turkish military would - not retaliate - but even dare to send a warship to guard an aid ship carrying essential supplies to Palestinians:








Another show of feigned remorse (considering the continuation of the illegal, immoral, and haram blockade) when business is down, public opinion is low and ally America needs PR and unity in crime:




Notice how the situation was steered and taken off course?
It wasn't about killing citizens from multiple countries -then apologizing to the Turkish ally leadership who took full possession the dispute, and then paying some Turkish families a negligible amount of money for family members who had been purposefully murdered without right, then continuing multi-million dollar deals - it was about the plight of the oppressed people in Palestine, yet that was side-stepped and most people appeared pacified.....

The ridicule and fake alliances will vanish when reality strikes with Allah :swt: 's just judgement at the border inshaAllah, then the unjust deniers of God will know...... it were better to repent.

وَإِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتُنَا بَيِّنَاتٍ قَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَيُّ الْفَرِيقَيْنِ خَيْرٌ مَقَامًا وَأَحْسَنُ نَدِيًّا ﴿۷۳﴾:
When Our clear verses are recited to them the deniers say to the believers: 'Which of the two parties has a better position or company? '

وَكَمْ أَهْلَكْنَا قَبْلَهُمْ مِنْ قَرْنٍ هُمْ أَحْسَنُ أَثَاثًا وَرِئْيًا ﴿۷۴﴾ :
How many generations have We destroyed before them, who were far greater in riches and more boastful!

قُلْ مَنْ كَانَ فِي الضَّلَالَةِ فَلْيَمْدُدْ لَهُ الرَّحْمَنُ مَدًّا حَتَّى إِذَا رَأَوْا مَا يُوعَدُونَ إِمَّا الْعَذَابَ وَإِمَّا السَّاعَةَ فَسَيَعْلَمُونَ مَنْ هُوَ شَرٌّ مَكَانًا وَأَضْعَفُ جُنْدًا ﴿۷۵﴾:
Say: 'Whosoever is in error, let the Most Merciful prolong his life span until they see that which they were threatened, be it a punishment, or the Hour. Then shall they know whose is the worst place and who is weaker in forces. '

From Quran, Chapter 19


---------

Response to @futuwwa 06-01-2017
What??? What are you talking about???-.......
.....How can you possibly accuse me of unfair attitude towards Palestinians? How dare you to call me a “…scam artist…”.
........Anyway, - you are a demagogue and sophist and you have no understanding of the complexities of the Palestinian-Israeli crisis.....

:)

It seems to me that you are afraid to argue on merit, because you have nothing of substance to say. So far all I see in your posts is sophism and demagoguery.

The above quote was with total disregard to facts and sounded like a baseless highly opinionated piece from fox news which aims at the average intelligence majority and where throwing baseless opinions at a void might bear fruit when all argument is lost.
You should realize that you are not on a air-head entertainment forum - but on an Islamic forum where the main focus is on thinking, I believe that you have not thought very well over the matter as to whether you are addressing a critical audience or not, the handbook states:

‘point scoring’ and ‘genuine debate’ - require different techniques,
and the Israel activist must know how to use each technique at the correct time.
Point Scoring
Point scoring is a method of communication that prioritises making certain points favourable
to the speaker, and attacking opponents of the speaker by trying to undermine their positions.
Point scoring communication ought to give the appearance of rational debate, whilst avoiding
genuine discussion. The aim of the Israel activist point scorer is to try to make as many
comments that are positive about Israel as possible, whilst attacking certain Palestinian
positions, and attempting to cultivate a dignified appearance.
Point scoring works because most audience members fail to analyse what they hear. Rather,
they register only a key few points, and form a vague impression of whose 'argument' was
stronger.
When to Point Score
Point scoring is the correct method of communication to use when the audience is likely to be
only partially engaged. Talk radio, student newspapers, large panel discussions, and anything
to do with television or the Internet should probably be viewed as having partially engaged
audiences, and so point scoring is the right way to communicate in these forums.
Point scoring can irritate audiences who are genuinely committed to thinking seriously about
their views on a subject. When talking in serious academic circles, or talking to friends, or
answering questions addressed personally by genuinely interested individuals, it is preferable
to refrain from point scoring, which can seem shallow, and to instead more fully engage using
rational argument.

Hasbara handbook 2009

Sincerely,

etn

I Sincerely assure you that you would have replied something along the lines of: "just because my statements appear to be regurgitated from the hasbara handbook and hasbara dictionary, that doesn't prove that they are, since any statement can be found to be similar to something or other else".
True.
But when you pretend to be neutral, non-partisan, and average joe, yet your comments supportive of zionist yahood and criticisms of "Arabs" are detached from reality, propagandistic and lengthy in nature, and you're putting out a whole load of information not based on fact with the apparent aim of obscuring the issue and flooding genuine points that are made which might dissipate support for Israel's criminal actions and status, and on top of that, your comments come straight out of the hasbara handbook, one is forced to conclude: this person has a dog in the fight, he is lying about his neutral stance, and looking through the posts, he appears to be focusing on keeping a debate going in fear that people will come to a just conclusion.

Sincerely,
Abz

P.S. When I come across posts such as yours, I feel as if I am addressing and being addressed by the very same person I've debated on different discussion forums and comments sections over the decades with slight variations in language, but with eerily similar answers to certain posts.
You could say the same of many Muslims, but we candidly admit that our main sources are the same.
That's the difference between giving a genuinely believed opinion - and shilling.
...

[ethnhunt]

Abz,

It may surprise you but I actually read your posts! All of them! I am still trying to figure out, - what exactly you are trying to say. It seems that it is your contention that what I SAY is dictated by some mythical book that some organization called Hasbara (not Hazbara, my mistake) put out as a guide for pro-Israel activities.

I assure you that nobody controls what I post. However, I could have made your job much easier, if I knew that you put so much importance into that Hasbara thing. I freely admit that I AM PRO-ISRAEL! There is no conspiracy here, - I advocate for the right of Israel to exist. I visited Israel many times and I like the people and I like how they live their lives and I understand their reality. I do think that the Palestinian Arabs are totally wrong in their underline desire to get rid of the Jews. So, - with the above in mind, - I am fine with what Hasbara says.

I hope that we, at this juncture, may dispense with whatever troubles you, regarding the Hasbara thing and perhaps we may return to the topic at hand, - the Arab-Israeli conflict.

…Regarding "negotiations" I think most intelligent people who are thirty and above have become tired of the CLICHE, and are aware of how it is used to push the illusion that things are about to be sorted and that there is no need for international uproar, and also how these "negotiations" and "the peace process" are used to bait people whilst making unacceptable demands with the express aim of getting the Palestian people and whatever leadership they have to reject them - so that they can be portrayed as unreasonable in absence of proper context, and can then be falsely portrayed as "aggressors" when they continue the lawful and just struggle in Allah path..

I read the above with difficulty, - you are not all that clear to me. But still, it seems that you are saying that the Palestinians are somehow tricked into NOT negotiating? Are you saying that Palestinians are stupid and can’t see the trickery? Are you saying that the Israeli peace proposals from 1993 till 2008, whereby the Arabs were offered nearly 97% of land they asked for is trickery? Are saying that proposed economic rehabilitation of Palestinian Arabs is more trickery? Hmm…

…considering the continuation of the illegal, immoral, and haram blockade…

I disagree. The blockade has a purpose. I must remind you that there were NO blockade before 2007. I must further remind you that Israel left Gaza in 2005 and for 2 years Gaza was left to its own devices. No blockade at the time for 2 years! What happened? Well, - Hamas happened, the missile attacks by Hamas on Israel happen. Two small wars that Hamas started happen. Endless statements by Hamas that the Jews will all be annihilated and Israel will be concurred happen.

Blockade is there to prevent Hamas from carrying out its goals. So, - message is clear, - ‘play nice’ and blockade will come down. Attempt to fight and in addition to losing the war, blockade stays. By the way, - the people of Gaza elected Hamas. I am sure that you are familiar with a concept the electorate deserves the leaders it elects, and carries responsibility for its actions.

It wasn't about killing citizens from multiple countries -then apologizing to the Turkish ally leadership who took full possession the dispute, and then paying some Turkish families a negligible amount of money for family members who had been purposefully murdered without right, then continuing multi-million dollar deals - it was about the plight of the oppressed people in Palestine, yet that was side-stepped and most people appeared pacified.....

Please spare me the theatrics. Israeli Navy had the right to board the ship, as long as there is justifiable cause. Clearly with Gaza blockaded for cause, there is cause to stop the ship! Frankly, International Court of Justice might have been a venue for the dispute, but the Turks did not go there. Why? I know why, - because the legal opinion was against them and they could have lost and they knew it. So they played the public relations card rather successfully I might add. Good for them.

Israel has the same right as any country to carry out its policies as long as such policies are in line with International statues, - look the International Law statutes if you must. The people on the boat attacked the boarding party of navy personal. There is ample evidence of that with relevant videos. Israeli Navy personal defended themselves, as anyone would do. Self-defense is not a crime.

But when you pretend to be neutral, non-partisan, and average joe, yet your comments supportive of zionist yahood and criticisms of "Arabs" are detached from reality, propagandistic and lengthy in nature, and you're putting out a whole load of information not based on fact with the apparent aim of obscuring the issue and flooding genuine points that are made which might dissipate support for Israel's criminal actions and status, and on top of that, your comments come straight out of the hasbara handbook, one is forced to conclude: this person has a dog in the fight, he is lying about his neutral stance, and looking through the posts, he appears to be focusing on keeping a debate going in fear that people will come to a just conclusion.

I admit that I support Israel. I think that Zionism is a rightful path for the Jews towards self-determination. Jews, like many the groups, deserve a country. I defend Israel here, because it clearly needs defending.

Please indulge me, if you must, on issues that I somehow ‘obscure’.

I feel that Israel has been railroaded by the determined Arab campaign to delegitimize it and eventually to replace it with yet another Arab state, as if the World does not have enough Arab states already.

Israel clearly contributed and continue to contribute greatly to the world’s welfare, with monumental advances in science and related fields. What have the Arab states contributed, other than oil? Israel carries its weight economically, while most Arab countries exist on Western handouts and will starve without those handouts. Perhaps it is incumbent for Arab Street to clean up its act BEFORE attempting to get rid of the only country in the Middle East that actually works.

On a different note, - you quote a lot from Quran. But you say NOTHING of context that those quotes absolutely require. Let me say here that I have read Quran many times in several translations and in 2 languages, though not Arabic, as I do not speak it. Still, I am very familiar with its contents. I also took courses whereby Quran was referenced and discussed in an organized scholarly environment. I also studied Torah in the same setting. I must tell you that you take liberty with your quotes. You need context here and you do not provide that context.

Perhaps it is better to refrain from Quranic verses as a possible tool to prove your point. Believe me, Torah can speak too and very loud indeed! However, we are not discussing anything that God did. We are discussing what people did. So, let’s stick to people’s deeds and not bring God into the discussion. Please notice that I can just as easily say God or G-d…OK?

Sincerely,

ethn

[Abz2000]

I didn't read your complete post since I have identified you as a shill and it would be hypocritical and wrong of me to pretend that i am listening to you and accepting your words when I have actually rejected you.
I read only the first few paragraphs of your post up until the quote and would inform you that I have been to a few Muslim majority countries, but it hasn't eroded my sense of justice and I usually see the majority being tolerant of and hospitable to stray people.
But since you claim that neither you, nor the yahoods whom you are a poster boy for, accept the guidance and rulings of God in the torah, and your way of life and decisions are not affected by it to the extent that rulings are compulsory, I must deduce that you are RACIST and your injustice is a result of that racism, and racists are punished in Islam if their injustice goes beyond bounds.
I therefore do not accept the zionist standpoint - or their right to exist.

[ethnhunt]

I didn't read your complete post since I have identified you as a shill and it would be hypocritical and wrong of me to pretend that i am listening to you and accepting your words when I have actually rejected you.

Really? I am still laughing! No…really, - no offence intended, but your ‘about face’ is totally hilarious! So…you “…identified…” me as what? LOL! You made a diagnosis, based on what? WOW, - what delusions of grandeur do we have here, - you are suffering my friend and suffering a lot. I feel for you.

I read only the first few paragraphs of your post up until the quote and would inform you that I have been to a few Muslim majority countries, but it hasn't eroded my sense of justice and I usually see the majority being tolerant of and hospitable to stray people.

Indeed, some Muslim countries are as you say, - “…tolerant of and hospitable…” - but many are not. In fact, majority are not. What you remarking on is an exception, not the rule.

I dare any visibly non-Muslim person to take a casual stroll alone anywhere in Saudi Arabia, or Lebanon or even Jordan and experience firsthand the dangers involved. I know, - I did! Let us not even discuss the realities of life in half a dozen openly Muslim African countries or Syria. You know, I hear Afghanistan a good place to visit this year!

But since you claim that neither you, nor the yahoods whom you are a poster boy for, accept the guidance and rulings of God in the torah, and your way of life and decisions are not affected by it to the extent that rulings are compulsory, I must deduce that you are RACIST and your injustice is a result of that racism, and racists are punished in Islam if their injustice goes beyond bounds.

Racist? Me? You jest!

Whatever gave you this idea…but then, again, you really do not show much of a gift for logic, - and so I accept out of pity your diagnosis! You display all the qualities of what we in the West call a ‘kangaroo’ court. You think very little, observe very little, a substantive conversation is a total anathema to you, but you are grand on gestures and baseless verbose outbursts, - and your favorite time is sentencing, - guilty!

At least the ‘yahoods’ do not hide behind Torah! They will never use Torah as prove of anything. They would think for themselves, make their own decisions and face the consequences of those decisions without apologetic use of Torah.

But you clearly adopted an easy way out, - you use Quran as an excuse for your behavior. You abdicate, you run away…because??? Oh, yes, because Quran tells you so, as per your inaccurate understanding, yes, - extremely inaccurate!

You know, - I can’t help it, but I find that the ‘running away’ is a repeating almost habitually cultural reality of those “…few Muslim majority countries…” that you visited. You know the year 1967 comes to mind, and also the year 1973 is prominently there too. There are other dates, but I shan’t go there. Is that your pattern too, dear Abz? It seems like it is…

I say you stand to gain a lot more if you face the adversary instead of running away from it! The ‘yahoods’ stand their ground and face it… and you…? So far, not so much.

I therefore do not accept the Zionist standpoint - or their right to exist.

Accept…or not. It’s irrelevant. Zionist enterprise does not just exist, - it is alive and doing very well.

So, - let’s see…what do you do? Instead of engaging with what you consider an adversary, you pretend that it does not exist. Kind of like an ostrich, - you know…I am sure you know.
Once upon a time a very smart ‘yahood’, Sigmund Freud, said, - that “denial is the most primitive defense!”

Ponder that….and weep.

[Abz2000]

....

No need to get your lying, sinful forelocks in a twist,
Just go check the methodology of all your scripted and desperate hasbara (or should i say "hazbara" as the yahoods would say) posts, no need to read all of them, just the first statement of each paragraph lol.

So again, talk to the hahand.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

The hasbra programme is really falling apart, so the mask comes off.

The goiym know too much.

[Abz2000]

Salaam

The hasbra programme is really falling apart, so the mask comes off.

The goiym know too much.

The post protocols of the learned but unwise old fascists of zion israel was born in sin, lives in sin, and hopefully repents to God and from it's crimes quick or dies in sin.
It's more deceitful than the antichrist itself.
This is regularly proven by it's deceitful shills all over the internet every time I nearly forget.
Their hatred and fascism clothed as debate is so telling when one bothers to look critically.
They've even proven that they were behind the nazis after fornicating with the tories and incubating fascist shill groups like the edl.

[ethnhunt]

No need to get your lying, sinful forelocks in a twist,
Just go check the methodology of all your scripted and desperate hasbara (or should i say "hazbara" as the yahoods would say) posts, no need to read all of them, just the first statement of each paragraph lol.

What?

I am now thinking that English is not your first language. Is that the case? - No shame here. I can suggest a school for you, - just ask. Clearly, - you are not thinking here... What “…methodology…” are you referring too? This is delusional. But hey...you are big on grandstanding and accusations.

You know, - methodology is a BIG word. I suggest you learn what it means and not use it until then. Do you realize, - nobody can understand what you are trying to say!

So again, talk to the hahand.

TALK TO THE HAND!!! No…really? LOL!… Are you are a child? Wait a minute, - you are a kid! …a teenager, right? What are you..15-16...must be. No, really, - this is beyond funny!

You are I the public forum! And you are saying, - “…talk to the hand…”. …LOL! How embarrassing it must be for you to denigrate yourself to such childish outbursts. Yes, - I know how difficult it must be for you, - you are trying your luck with grown-ups and you are coming up short…in every department. LOL!

The post protocols of the learned but unwise old fascists of zion israel was born in sin, lives in sin, and hopefully repents to God and from it's crimes quick or dies in sin.
It's more deceitful than the antichrist itself.

Are you referring to the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion’? If so, - you should learn that it is a forgery, made in Russia in 1870s. There have never been ‘elders of Zion’, EVER! But, - hey, please, - do read it. It reads like a standup comedy act. For you and your level of comprehension, it is right on!

This is regularly proven by it's deceitful shills all over the internet every time I nearly forget.
Their hatred and fascism clothed as debate is so telling when one bothers to look critically.
They've even proven that they were behind the nazis after fornicating with the tories and incubating fascist shill groups like the edl.

Do you even know what ‘fascism’ is? I bet you don’t. But you do use the word! Let me enlighten you, - in a context that you used it, it does NOT apply. English is hard! To call someone a ‘fascist’ or an event ‘fascism’ you need context, otherwise it is simply an insult and nothing more, - a bug bite from an untutored, simpleminded hater!

In an immortal words of my favorite commercial, - “show me the beef”! You can’t, can you?

[Abz2000]

Iisten troll, this thread is about a subject and your posts from page one have been a "you" "you" "you" attempt to detract from the debate and get an altercation going, you've been responded to sufficiently and should stop stalking me, I stopped paying attention to your posts with respect to topic two pages ago once I realised what you were doing, go back and check if uncertain.
Also learn the difference between difficult and hard.

[ethnhunt]

this thread is about a subject and your posts from page one have been a "you" "you" "you"

Yes, - I said “you” because I was to talking to you and no one else.

…attempt to detract from the debate and get an altercation going, you've been responded to sufficiently and should stop stalking me…

I disagree. I was very much involved in the debate, until you showed up. Furthermore, you did not debate. You accused and you insulted. Perhaps you are not used to when others push back…this is not stalking.

However, I am happy that you are mentioning the debate part of this thread. It seems that you would like to return to discussing the issues. If so, - that would be great…and appreciated. The title of the thread is “…Israel land grab law 'ends hope of two-state solution'.

I intimated in my posts that this is not the case, - Israel never grabbed the land from rightful owners. I disputed the claim that Arabs have to the land in question. I’ll be happy to hear your take on this matter.

Iisten troll…

Hmmm…not cool!

Also learn the difference between difficult and hard.

Touché! Indeed you are correct, - it is ‘difficult, not hard! My mistake.

[Abz2000]

Would be useful to go back and look at your posts at this stage :) I did, and I noticed a funny pattern where a person mentions a valid point, and it is immediately responded to with "you" almost every time, and then becomes and ego war, I smiled when I noticed you accused futuwwa of being a "sophist" and a "demagogue" :giggling: , it was quite an enlightening study like when one studies a work of art, though I mostly skimmed through whilst focusing mainly on each opening sentence, it was highly interesting and intriguing- it felt like it was straight out the handbook, one would be amazed at how someone managed it without having ever read it.

Anyways, thanks for being kind enough to allow me to observe the practical application, I don't think it would have been possible to understand it by searching through dispersed posts from multiple users, it's always easier to follow the breadcrumbs without getting confused when it's cohesive.

On a more serious note:

I pray that the creator of the universe guides you and me.

One piece of advice, please read through the Quran in your own time for yourself, I think the translations at work will be badly biased and you'll not get a chance to ponder - especially they way they are, did you know that the pharaoh's wife was a believer?

If you ever get tired of work and all that hate, I hope to be there to talk for Allah's sake, don't lose hope of Allah's grace, seek and ye shall find.

Sincerely,
Abz

[Scimitar]

I'm not a Jew, but from what I seen, the Jews treat Palestinians better than Arabs treat other Arabs.

you need a new pair of eyes.

[Abz2000]

reply to etn:
lol bro you cannot go back thousands of years and claim rights to a land because that land belonged to jews back then! :Emoji47:; lets give back england to the viking then! :Emoji48:, lets give back the entire wrold to people who lived there ten thousand years ago! :Emoji48:

What an idea! If anyone's got mixed ancestry from a few different countries, they is gonna be rich.
If they can trace their roots back to Adam or Noah, they can even claim planet earth.
I mean why have thousand year chains of land purchases and deeds and testimonies when you just need to search through rubble and find something that never belonged to you or to your family or someone you lawfully purchased the land from? If it's not a fallacy, somebody please tell me the legal requirements for rubble. I'll go look for some old stuff in my dad's attic and throw it in the river thames, then I can send everyone a water bill.

I can see that you're responding to a fallacious argument - and would also point out that many illegal settlers don't even have jewish ancestry to back up their fallacious arguments.
Another extension to the fallacious argument is that the only way a person can get citizenship in the fake state of israhell is by agreeing to become a war criminal and agreeing that stolen land is legitimate.
Even the term "recognizing israhell" is a loaded intellectually dishonest concept, since it is geared towards accepting the internationally criminal illegal map and thereby pretending that all the international resolutions against israhell are irrelevant.

I can see why they would focus so much on american and european public opinion though, since the relations include arms deals and other business transactions, along with the fact that the american government and the whole u.n setup loses credibility at home and abroad when it has to veto unanimous international resolutions, and european leaders lose credibility when they refuse to condemn criminal actions by israhell once an act is tabled. I used to wonder why on earth lobbied leaders paid israhell to promote false propaganda warfare against their own citizenry.......the most simple answer is that manipulation of public opinion takes the pressure off corrupt leaders and keeps the false game of pretense diplomacy going.


dem·a·gogue (de-magog, as in leader of zombie hordes)
a political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.
synonyms: rabble-rouser, agitator, political agitator, soapbox orator, firebrand, fomenter, provocateur

soph·ist
ˈsäfəst/
noun
a paid teacher of philosophy and rhetoric in ancient Greece, associated in popular thought with moral skepticism and specious reasoning.

a person who reasons with clever but fallacious arguments.


-----

Blind democracy can be quite a scary concept when one cares to critically look at what majority demagogues aim and how such demagogues contribute to dumb and dumber by using dumbed down arguments and thereby make their chosen electorate flock even more confused and even more easily able to accept fallacies without question, they basically aim their mind numbing weapons at the 100 mark and succeed in lowering the intelligence of those who don't bother to think and call out the fallacies, what will they do if they lower the average? Aim lower?

Attachment 6239

No wonder there's so much focus and promotion of mind numbing pop music, titilation of the baser mammalian instincts, and drugs.


------

Special pleading
Special pleading is a form of fallacious argument that involves an attempt to cite something as an exception to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exception.[1][2]

The lack of criticism may be a simple oversight (e.g., a reference to common sense) or an application of a double standard.

[ethnhunt]

If they can trace their roots back to Adam or Noah, they can even claim planet earth.

I mean why have thousand year chains of land purchases and deeds and testimonies when you just need to search through rubble and find something that never belonged to you or to your family or someone you lawfully purchased the land from? If it's not a fallacy, somebody please tell me the legal requirements for rubble. I'll go look for some old stuff in my dad's attic and throw it in the river thames, then I can send everyone a water bill.

I see…it seems to me that you are under the impression that Muslim Arabs are the ONLY rightful ethnic group in the area of modern Israel. Clearly if that were the case, then I understand your indignation. But this is not the case! Furthermore, we do not need to go anywhere in time in order to show what is legal or what is not.

Still, - let me show you the population data available from the best sources we have. I would go back 200 years only, but we can do more if you wish, however the pattern would remain the same all the way to 4^th century as estimated:

In 1800, there were 7,000 Jews and 200,000 Muslims, with about 20,000 Christians living in the area of what may call Palestine.

The 1922 census of Palestine was the first census carried out by the authorities of the British Mandate of Palestine, on 23 October 1922. The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 408 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.

In 1948, there were approximately 600,000 Jews and about 1.1 million Muslims.

The above clearly shows that the Jews have always lived in the area and were majority in Jerusalem until mid-1800s. When I say always, I imply from about 5000 years ago till present, derived from documents. Archaeological evidence is available to show Jewish presents to about 2700 years before modern times or about 700 years before Christ. All I am trying to show you is that both the Muslims and the Jews and the Christians can stand up and claim the land. Not just Muslims!

Please note that emigration of Muslims from Arabia into Palestine happened in about the same time as Jewish emigration happened starting in sufficient numbers in mid 1800s. More Muslim emigrated in then the Jews. After the British took over from the Turks, UK Government restricted Jewish emigration, but left Muslim Arab emigration unrestricted. This is the reason for the numbers in to be what they were in 1947.

You also spoke of legalities. Well, - in the context of modern history of 20^th century the only legality of note are the decisions of League of Nations and United Nations. There is nothing else! If you wish to consider the Ottoman Turkey as a country prior to 1918, then you must agree to the fate of Turkish Palestine after 1918. If you do not think of Ottoman Turkey as a country, then we have to say that Palestine was never a country, but an province administered by Turkish empire until the British came in. The British took it from the Turks in the same manner as the Turks came into possessing it back in 1600s. How far do you want to go is your business, but there is only one thing that matters today, - the UN decision of 1947 and, to a degree, the decisions by League of Nations prior to 1947.

What I just told is THE reason why Palestinian Authority will NEVER contest anything in the International Court of Justice against Israel on territorial issues, because PA will most likely lose on legalities alone. Besides the Court has no jurisdiction in the mater anyway, but theoretically, if it did, - the PA will most definitely lose and Israel will most definitely win. So, - PA goes to the court of ‘Public Opinion’ and wins there.

Most countries today consider Israeli possession of West Bank and Golan Heights illegal. This is so, mostly as a result of incessant PA lobbying after the events of 1967 war and naïve hope that Muslim Arabs of Palestine can live next to the Jews of Palestine in peace.

I hope you know that West Bank was supposed to be the State of Palestine after 1947, but it never happened due to Jordan’s desire to keep it as a part of Jordan. This is a good old reality of Arabs not caring for their brother Arabs!

PA will lose because Israeli claim to the land is formidable, - going back to the St. Remo Conference as recognized by League of Nations and grandfathered by UN, indicating that Israel may exist in the West Bank. Furthermore, since Palestine, as a state, never materialized (thanks to Jordanian efforts) and Jordan walking away from any further claim on West Bank after 1967, Israel is now in the position to dispute the 1947 decision of UN on the grounds that its security, as a sovereign state, has greater priority and merit then a none-existing Palestinian entity.

The West Bank was never a part of any country, so Israeli possession of it is not an occupation or a land-grab.

Golan Heights is another matter. And here Syria might have an argument that may stand up on Court. But Syria is in shambles and any argument will be predicated on a peace initiative that Syria under Assad(s) never entertained, - so Israeli annexation of Golan, under the circumstances as a spoils of war, where Israel was an aggrieved party, may have merit and may legally stand. But it is not as clear as the West Bank status. On the West Bank Israel has a great case.

I hope the above was not too technical. The issue of West Bank can be resolved with the parties going to status qua ante of 1947 as a consequence of a negotiating process. However, the Palestinian Authority shows absolutely no appetite for any negotiations with Israel that may involve even minor compromise. PA’s position is paramount to a request of Israel committing a national suicide. Under those conditions PA will agree to negotiate. To wit, - PA says to Israel, - die and then we will be friends. I can post a latest PA’s demands and you will see the prove of the above. Israeli position is one of compromise where both parties may get most of what they want, but not everything. Look up the Israeli peace offers going back to 2000 if you need any further proof.

…so, - there you have it!

I can see that you're responding to a fallacious argument - and would also point out that many illegal settlers don't even have jewish ancestry to back up their fallacious arguments.

Are you an expert of who is and who is not Jewish? Even the rabbinate in Jerusalem with its 900 rabbis is still debating this. Legally speaking, any sovereign state has an absolute right to decide who gets to emigrate in and who doesn’t, with your opinion or mine notwithstanding.

Furthermore Israel is slowly migrating from being a Jewish State to simply being a State, meaning that you do not have to be a Jew to be an Israeli, but you do have to conform to Israeli values, which are greatly predicated on Jewish values. This is a model that any Western country has today. It has not happen in Israel yet, but it is a process.

The result of that process will exclude all those who acts against Israel.

The Law of Return was designed to give refuge to the Jews of the World in the only country where they can feel safe, which is understandable if you consider the past 2000 years of Jewish life culminating with the murder of 6 million by German Nazis.

Another extension to the fallacious argument is that the only way a person can get citizenship in the fake state of israhell is by agreeing to become a war criminal and agreeing that stolen land is legitimate.

…what you are saying is argumentative and a hearsay. You can’t ever show that any land was stolen, because you can never show that the ownership of said land was ever valid. The validity of ownership in question ended with Ottoman Empire being dismembered and British Mandate ending.

Population that either run away in fear or warfare or was displaced does have a right to compensation on merit, but it may not have a right to reclaiming its real estate because of proclaimed hostility to Israel. You can’t have it both ways, - you can’t ask for your home back while advocating for the demise of an authority that now holds your home. You can however ask and should receive ample compensation for your loss. Such compensation has been offered time and again by Israel. Look up proposed initiatives back in 2000 in Camp David.

Even the term "recognizing israhell" is a loaded intellectually dishonest concept, since it is geared towards accepting the internationally criminal illegal map and thereby pretending that all the international resolutions against israhell are irrelevant.

International resolution are relevant, but not legally binding, which why Israel mostly ignores them. However, all countries ignore them, not just Israel. The latest one is China, which was just sited with judgment for Philippines over the China Sea claims. What does China do? Ignores the judgment!

If resolution cannot be ignored, then the war will result and nobody wants that. The only binding resolution is the one that comes form Security Consul, because the threat of military actin becomes real.

I can see why they would focus so much on american and european public opinion though, since the relations include arms deals and other business transactions, along with the fact that the american government and the whole u.n setup loses credibility at home and abroad when it has to veto unanimous international resolutions, and european leaders lose credibility when they refuse to condemn criminal actions by israhell once an act is tabled. I used to wonder why on earth lobbied leaders paid israhell to promote false propaganda warfare against their own citizenry.......the most simple answer is that manipulation of public opinion takes the pressure off corrupt leaders and keeps the false game of pretense diplomacy going.

Perhaps you should look at the very preoccupation that UN has with Israel. Out of the last 35 resolutions that UN did pass, 31 concerned Israel. So, the Arab majority in most relevant UN committees is very much engaged against Israel. This is not fair, since the world has by far more problems than Israel’s issues. So your point is wrong on facts alone.

Furthermore, lobbing is the way of world. All groups are free to lobby. The Israeli lobby is well organized and very efficient. Arabs have the same opportunity here. They can do better.

The reason it appears one sided to you, when you conspiratorially speak of agreements and business transactions, is because Israeli economy is absolutely integrated with the World’s economy. There is just so much of what the world needs that does come out and originate in Israel, - the science, the medicine, the computer microprocessors and associated electronics (including the one you use!), the software, the agriculture, etc. etc. all of that is worth it to the world at large.

What does come out of Arab world? Not very much! And oil is losing its value as we speak. I do not see a bright future for Arab world at this time. I hope it changes though.

Blind democracy can be quite a scary concept when one cares to critically look at what majority demagogues aim and how such demagogues contribute to dumb and dumber by using dumbed down arguments and thereby make their chosen electorate flock even more confused and even more easily able to accept fallacies without question, they basically aim their mind numbing weapons at the 100 mark and succeed in lowering the intelligence of those who don't bother to think and call out the fallacies, what will they do if they lower the average? Aim lower?

I do not engage in demagoguery. I try to support what I say with available data. If you managed to have read my comments above, I hope you find them substantiated and logical and not too argumentative, although some of what I say can be contested, but most of what I say is just facts and logic. I also realize that you may not like what I say, but it does not make it any less pertinent.

Believe me, Israelis will give ‘their collective right arm’ for the possibility of a compromise with PA that will lead to an agreement. Israelis will give up land ad will pay sufficient compensation to all involved in exchange to the reality to live in peace and security. It is possible.

[Abz2000]

Same style man, be a bit more original, sounding like a sales department customer agent or holiday agent fetching a brochure one minute, and a lawyer the next isn't very convincing when it comes to attempting to convince others that you're not a member of staff now is it? Relax a bit dude, sounding too at the office-like gives the game away.

It's not about turning it into a competition process between me an you, and about who out of the two of us is "winning" with lots of text - since Allah :swt: wins, so lets try and get on His side then we'll be part of the winning team even after the generation is reaped.

Now take a deep breath, relax, and post something with real substance. I'm using a phone, so if you decide to flood the issue with text, and halfway down the post, try to imply that it's not rellly about legality, people will wonder what you're up to (shhhh I'm trying to help you out dude) do you want everyone to find out?

Better still, come clean about it all and we'll talk on a level, I have no problem discussing issues with a person who honestly states that he's a representative working from an office, otherwise it feels like one of those stall the scammer fake microsoft or IRS agent and have fun pranks.






---


Firstly, take a critical look at the patronizing response style which I quote later:

first thing, you grab a high chair,
next, imply to everyone a strawman assertion which you then go on to deconstruct yourself and somehow attempt to conjure the illusion that the person being responded to is clueless,
whilst in the meantime, mention other people in "modern israhell" as if it's the name of the place - when it's actually an illegal entity that needs to be removed.
Then go on to fill the post with data about yahoods in contrast to arabs - before subtly admitting that israhell illegal even by the standards of the consortium that was put together to install it - but also claiming that legality isn't an issue.
Strength appears to be the only issue that logically remains in the equation although it's not mentioned - and a low grade P.R spin is all that the post appears to attempt. Know that strength belongs to Allah, and that the heirs will be those who are most true and just.

The next fallacy: the COURTIER'S REPLY is utilised by questioning the person's expertise and then the assertion that there is no such entity as yahood. (It raises the question: why go to so much lengths to provoke turmoil in the region by installing an entity that doesn't exist by any truthful or tangible measure - on stolen land? ....Goes back to my statement two pages ago about it being better to give them half of england or a state in america.

I see…it seems to me that you are under the impression that Muslim Arabs are the ONLY rightful ethnic group in the area of modern Israel.
Clearly if that were the case, then I understand your indignation.
But this is not the case!
Furthermore, we do not need to go anywhere in time in order to show what is legal or what is not.

Still, - let me show you the population data available from the best sources we have. I would go back 200 years only, but we can do more if you wish, however the pattern would remain the same all the way to 4th century as estimated:

In 1800, there were 7,000 Jews and 200,000 Muslims, with about 20,000 Christians living in the area of what may call Palestine.

........Are you an expert of who is and who is not Jewish? Even the rabbinate in Jerusalem with its 900 rabbis is still debating this. Legally speaking, any sovereign state has an absolute right to decide who gets to emigrate in and who doesn’t, with your opinion or mine notwithstanding.

Furthermore Israel is slowly migrating from being a Jewish State to simply being a State, meaning that you do not have to be a Jew to be an Israeli...

It is very rude and arrogant to claim that they're willing to "give up" stolen land back to the owners in exchange for a compromise - that's blackmail, and I accuse you of blackmail since you make the claim as if you are an ambassador representative - when in reality, you are posing as a semi-casual commenter whose employers have set it up so they can deny responsibility for your statements.

Believe me, Israelis will give ‘their collective right arm’ for the possibility of a compromise with PA that will lead to an agreement. Israelis will give up land ad will pay sufficient compensation to all involved in exchange to the reality to live in peace and security. It is possible.

After detailing the opening fallacies, I'm not even gonna bother popping the remaining empty balloons though I could if I wanted to waste time.



The only thing I'll ask is:
What did you hope to achieve by the extended post?
Everyone has a reason for posting.
What was the intended benefit?

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Careful brothers and sisters. We have to remember that there are many religious Jews are opposed to the creation of Israel and how their faith has been hijacked by the Zionists.

[ethnhunt]

Same style man, be a bit more original, sounding like a sales department customer agent or holiday agent fetching a brochure one minute, and a lawyer the next isn't very convincing when it comes to attempting to convince others that you're not a member of staff now is it? Relax a bit dude, sounding too at the office-like gives the game away.

WOW!!! I really have no clue what you trying to say!!! I bet nobody would have a clue what you trying to say!!! WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY!!!

Just to remind you, we are talking about Arab-Israeli crisis. Focus! I really don’t care how I ‘sound’ to you. I do care for the issues that are being discussed. You clearly is more attuned to how thing ‘sound’, not what they mean!!!

I am not a lawyer. My background is physics. I do not work in the office. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am trying to show you that there is another narrative that has more merit then your blubbering’s. You are free to believe in whatever you want or be deluded as it is clearly evident from your post. I really don’t care.

Tell me, - can you think? So far there is no evidence of that. Prove me wrong! I dare you.

It's not about turning it into a competition process between me an you, and about who out of the two of us is "winning" with lots of text - since Allah wins, so lets try and get on His side then we'll be part of the winning team even after the generation is reaped.

I AM a part of a winning team, because I preach democracy and freedom. Are you? I agree that this is not a competition, whatever gave you that demented idea? It ONLY looks like a completion to you, because you can’t argue in a logical and consistent manner. So, you are reverting to the childish lowest denominator, - a competitive stands! Get out of a sand box, play with the big boys! Otherwise your mental impotence is all too revealing.

You know, - Bob Dillon once said to John Lennon, and I quote, - “ …what are you saying, man?...” I ask you the same question, - WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY, MAN?

Now take a deep breath, relax, and post something with real substance. I'm using a phone, so if you decide to flood the issue with text, and halfway down the post, try to imply that it's not rellly about legality, people will wonder what you're up to (shhhh I'm trying to help you out dude) do you want everyone to find out?

LOL, - its all conspiracies to you, right? You can’t fathom a though that most people can actually think for themselves. I don’t use a phone, I use speech-to-text tech. It is quick and it works and it is Israeli! If my posts are long, it is because the topic needs space.

I am surprised that you saw no substance in my posts. I gave you dates, figures, legal standing and logic. What have you given back? All I see is verbal junk coming out of you. You need to do better. Can you? You can pick ANY paragraph that I wrote in any of my posts and see data or reasoning. It impossible to say the same about your posts!

Better still, come clean about it all and we'll talk on a level, I have no problem discussing issues with a person who honestly states that he's a representative working from an office, otherwise it feels like one of those stall the scammer fake microsoft or IRS agent and have fun pranks.

I only represent myself. I do not work in the office. I don’t have to. I have no idea what it ‘feels’ to you like, but I assure you that you are wrong. Can we dispense with that?

…in the meantime, mention other people in "modern israhell" as if it's the name of the place - when it's actually an illegal entity that needs to be removed.
Then go on to fill the post with data about yahoods in contrast to arabs - before subtly admitting that israhell illegal even by the standards of the consortium that was put together to install it - but also claiming that legality isn't an issue.

You like illusions don’t you. “Israhell” exists! You deny it, but it does. LOL! Here is a mental exercise for you, - a small one to start with just see how you do, - can you show why “Israhell” is “an illegal entity that needs to be removed”.

Here is a bombshell for you, - it is not enough to say what you like! You also must SHOW why you say it! Support your views! This is called ‘thinking’. Perhaps it is a novel concept for you, but I am sure you are a high school graduate, so they must have taught you something. Let’s see what you can do, - show you mental strength!

Here is another thing, I KNOW that there IS a way to show that Israel is actually an illegal entity according to the process that took place at UN, by UNSCOP back in 1947. That reasoning is flawed because Israel WAS eventually recognized by the majority of the nations and thereby fulfilled the requirements of the State status. But still, you can try to show the supposed illegality. I bet you can’t, because you do not know enough history. Education is your friend!

All you do, is simply say that “Israhell” is “an illegal entity, but you do not know WHY it may be?

The next fallacy: the COURTIER'S REPLY is utilised by questioning the person's expertise and then the assertion that there is no such entity as yahood. (It raises the question: why go to so much lengths to provoke turmoil in the region by installing an entity that doesn't exist by any truthful or tangible measure - on stolen land? ....Goes back to my statement two pages ago about it being better to give them half of england or a state in america.

… no such entity as yahood? Are you saying that there are no Jews? What are you saying? I guess ONLY you know that, which is becoming a norm for your posts.

I already addressed the “…stolen land…” issue and showed that the land was never stolen. Tell me WHY do you insist that the Jews stole the land? Where is your reasoning? Where is your logic? You just like to say things without thinking, right?

Israel was ‘installed’ by the decision of the World on the land that had no legal ownership in the eyes of the World. Palestine was the ward of the World when the UK surrendered its mandate over it. Do you get it? Need proof? It is easy.

Israelis remained in the land after 1948. That was the Land that UN allocated to Israel. What happened to the Land that UN allocated to the Arabs? It became part of Jordan.

The 1948 Arab war against Israel was not successful. This is the end of that story. Therefore Israel fulfilled the requirement for being a state, - it was recognized by the World (UN) and it managed to defend itself. The land issue after 1948 became the purview of Israel. Those Arab that were not displaced retained their possessions. Those Arabs that were displaced did not. Is it legal? I have no idea, as international statures do not address those issues. It is perfectly legal from Israeli point of view. The Arabs do have a remedy, - they can negotiate or fight. Former is preferable, while latter is hopeless.

After 1967 war, the land of West Bank became the purview of Israel too. What would you do if you were there after the events of 1967? Would you pull the troops back from West Bank and faced more terrorism and war or you would say to the Arabs, - ‘I’ll give the land back only if you promise not to attack again, sigh the peace treaty and be a good neighbor’. This is EXACTLY what Israel did and say in after 1967 and got the three famous NO’s in response from Mr. Nasser. Israel got terrorism from Mr. Arafat. What were and still are the goals of the Arabs? I shall tell you, - their goals, by their own admission, is a replacement if Israel with another Arab state! This is the reason no negotiations ever took place! Think, man…think! Don’t be a cowboy, do not just shoot from the hip, - think!

It is very rude and arrogant to claim that they're willing to "give up" stolen land back to the owners in exchange for a compromise - that's blackmail, and I accuse you of blackmail since you make the claim as if you are an ambassador representative - when in reality, you are posing as a semi-casual commenter whose employers have set it up so they can deny responsibility for your statements.

I have no “employers”. I work for nobody. Please stop that nonsense. The compromise I spoke about is the way to negotiate the conflict out. Both sides lose something. But both sides stand a lot to gain. This is the compromise! Israel proper, as per UN’s decision of 1947, is the land that cannot be disputed by any logic. The land Israel gained in wars that were started by Arabs is THE LAND that can be disputed. The compromise is referred to that Land. There is no blackmail here, just pragmatism.

The only thing I'll ask is:
What did you hope to achieve by the extended post?
Everyone has a reason for posting.
What was the intended benefit?

I post because I can. I do everything because I can. I am very fortunate that way. Ok?

[ethnhunt]

Salaam

Careful brothers and sisters. We have to remember that there are many religious Jews are opposed to the creation of Israel and how their faith has been hijacked by the Zionists.

There are 18 million Jews in the world.

The videos you posted show the members of Neturey Karta. They are anti-zionist. They number less then five hundred, which represents a tiny persantage of the total Jewish population.

There are other sects within Jewdaizm who are also anti-zionist. Together they might number about 6-7 thousands.

The rest of the Jews are supporting Israel.

You have no case. Your point is...well... pointless, because Neturey Karta does not speak for the Jews of the world.

You might look at the website of the World Jewish Congress to get an idea of how much support and by how many People does Israel enjoy. We are talking many millions here.

[Abz2000]

The following is more concise and stable than my speech, ponder over it.


٣٣ أَفَمَنْ هُوَ قَآئِمٌ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ نَفْسٍۭ بِمَا كَسَبَتْ ۗ وَجَعَلُوا۟ لِلَّهِ شُرَكَآءَ قُلْ سَمُّوهُمْ ۚ أَمْ تُنَبِّـُٔونَهُۥ بِمَا لَا يَعْلَمُ فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ أَم بِظَٰهِرٍ مِّنَ ٱلْقَوْلِ ۗ بَلْ زُيِّنَ لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ مَكْرُهُمْ وَصُدُّوا۟ عَنِ ٱلسَّبِيلِ ۗ وَمَن يُضْلِلِ ٱللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُۥ مِنْ هَادٍ33


٣٤ لَّهُمْ عَذَابٌ فِى ٱلْحَيَوٰةِ ٱلدُّنْيَا ۖ وَلَعَذَابُ ٱلْءَاخِرَةِ أَشَقُّ ۖ وَمَا لَهُم مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ مِن وَاقٍ34


33. Is then He who stands over every soul with what it does (like others)?
And yet they ascribe partners to Allah.
Say: "But name them! is it that you will inform Him of something he knows not on earth?
Or is it a vast display of speech?"
Actually, to those who deny, their plotting seems pleasing, but they are kept back (thereby) from the path. And those whom Allah leaves to stray, there is for him no guide.
34. For them is a torment in the life of this world, but the torment of the Hereafter is more difficult, and not for them, against Allah, are there any defenders.

From Quran, Chapter 13.

WOW!!! I really have no clue what you trying to say!!! I bet nobody would have a clue what you trying to say!!! WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY!!!

Just to remind you, we are talking about Arab-Israeli crisis. Focus! I really don’t care how I ‘sound’ to you. I do care for the issues that are being discussed. You clearly is more attuned to how thing ‘sound’, not what they mean!!!

I am not a lawyer. My background is physics. I do not work in the office. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am trying to show you that there is another narrative that has more merit then your blubbering’s. You are free to believe in whatever you want or be deluded as it is clearly evident from your post. I really don’t care.

Tell me, - can you think? So far there is no evidence of that. Prove me wrong! I dare you.



I AM a part of a winning team, because I preach democracy and freedom. Are you? I agree that this is not a competition, whatever gave you that demented idea? It ONLY looks like a completion to you, because you can’t argue in a logical and consistent manner. So, you are reverting to the childish lowest denominator, - a competitive stands! Get out of a sand box, play with the big boys! Otherwise your mental impotence is all too revealing.

You know, - Bob Dillon once said to John Lennon, and I quote, - “ …what are you saying, man?...” I ask you the same question, - WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY, MAN?



LOL, - its all conspiracies to you, right? You can’t fathom a though that most people can actually think for themselves. I don’t use a phone, I use speech-to-text tech. It is quick and it works and it is Israeli! If my posts are long, it is because the topic needs space.

I am surprised that you saw no substance in my posts. I gave you dates, figures, legal standing and logic. What have you given back? All I see is verbal junk coming out of you. You need to do better. Can you? You can pick ANY paragraph that I wrote in any of my posts and see data or reasoning. It impossible to say the same about your posts!



I only represent myself. I do not work in the office. I don’t have to. I have no idea what it ‘feels’ to you like, but I assure you that you are wrong. Can we dispense with that?



You like illusions don’t you. “Israhell” exists! You deny it, but it does. LOL! Here is a mental exercise for you, - a small one to start with just see how you do, - can you show why “Israhell” is “an illegal entity that needs to be removed”.

Here is a bombshell for you, - it is not enough to say what you like! You also must SHOW why you say it! Support your views! This is called ‘thinking’. Perhaps it is a novel concept for you, but I am sure you are a high school graduate, so they must have taught you something. Let’s see what you can do, - show you mental strength!

Here is another thing, I KNOW that there IS a way to show that Israel is actually an illegal entity according to the process that took place at UN, by UNSCOP back in 1947. That reasoning is flawed because Israel WAS eventually recognized by the majority of the nations and thereby fulfilled the requirements of the State status. But still, you can try to show the supposed illegality. I bet you can’t, because you do not know enough history. Education is your friend!

All you do, is simply say that “Israhell” is “an illegal entity, but you do not know WHY it may be?



… no such entity as yahood? Are you saying that there are no Jews? What are you saying? I guess ONLY you know that, which is becoming a norm for your posts.

I already addressed the “…stolen land…” issue and showed that the land was never stolen. Tell me WHY do you insist that the Jews stole the land? Where is your reasoning? Where is your logic? You just like to say things without thinking, right?

Israel was ‘installed’ by the decision of the World on the land that had no legal ownership in the eyes of the World. Palestine was the ward of the World when the UK surrendered its mandate over it. Do you get it? Need proof? It is easy.

Israelis remained in the land after 1948. That was the Land that UN allocated to Israel. What happened to the Land that UN allocated to the Arabs? It became part of Jordan.

The 1948 Arab war against Israel was not successful. This is the end of that story. Therefore Israel fulfilled the requirement for being a state, - it was recognized by the World (UN) and it managed to defend itself. The land issue after 1948 became the purview of Israel. Those Arab that were not displaced retained their possessions. Those Arabs that were displaced did not. Is it legal? I have no idea, as international statures do not address those issues. It is perfectly legal from Israeli point of view. The Arabs do have a remedy, - they can negotiate or fight. Former is preferable, while latter is hopeless.

After 1967 war, the land of West Bank became the purview of Israel too. What would you do if you were there after the events of 1967? Would you pull the troops back from West Bank and faced more terrorism and war or you would say to the Arabs, - ‘I’ll give the land back only if you promise not to attack again, sigh the peace treaty and be a good neighbor’. This is EXACTLY what Israel did and say in after 1967 and got the three famous NO’s in response from Mr. Nasser. Israel got terrorism from Mr. Arafat. What were and still are the goals of the Arabs? I shall tell you, - their goals, by their own admission, is a replacement if Israel with another Arab state! This is the reason no negotiations ever took place! Think, man…think! Don’t be a cowboy, do not just shoot from the hip, - think!



I have no “employers”. I work for nobody. Please stop that nonsense. The compromise I spoke about is the way to negotiate the conflict out. Both sides lose something. But both sides stand a lot to gain. This is the compromise! Israel proper, as per UN’s decision of 1947, is the land that cannot be disputed by any logic. The land Israel gained in wars that were started by Arabs is THE LAND that can be disputed. The compromise is referred to that Land. There is no blackmail here, just pragmatism.



I post because I can. I do everything because I can. I am very fortunate that way. Ok?

If I was talking on an intellectually honest level with someone, we could have gotten somewhere, but I'm honestly telling you the truth when I say that when I read your argumentative and nothing else posts, and argue with you in return - I feel like I've descended into a spiritual cesspit, like my soul has been corrupted and darkened. I will leave Allah to deal with you since He knows the inner intentions better than anyone else and you can see if you can take Him around in circles if you would.
I have rejected the enemies of Islam, hatred and enmity has manifested between us and will not dissipate in absence of repentance to Allah, and I seek refuge with Allah from being made a trial for the kuffar.

If someone else doesn't mind the idea of you perverting their statements and then lacing them with loads of falsehoods so they can spend hours on end refuting them but getting nowhere with you - and losing their spiritual calm in the meantime, that's their choice, please don't get one of your colleagues to start a fake debate with you though.

I am not going to remain neutral or pretend that I reject you If I believe you are true, and I am not going to remain neutral and pretend that I sort of trust you if I believe you're a fraud.
If you're a fraud, I have no logical reason to waste my time or yours.
I think you're a fraud and I will let Allah :swt: deal with you. If He doesn't exist, you have no reason to worry about what He'll do. If He does, don't be stupid by trying to play games.
And I'm telling you that Allah exists - even though you already know.



Surah 44. Smoke
1. Ha-Mim.
2. By the Book that makes things clear;-
3. We sent it down during a Blessed Night: for We (ever) wish to warn (against Evil).
4. In the (Night) is made distinct every affair of wisdom,
5. By command, from Our Presence. For We (ever) send (revelations),
6. As Mercy from thy Lord: for He hears and knows (all things);
7. The Lord of the heavens and the earth and all between them, if ye (but) have an assured faith.
8. There is no god but He: It is He Who gives life and gives death,- The Lord and Cherisher to you and your earliest ancestors.
9. Yet they play about in doubt.
10. Then watch for the Day that the sky will bring forth a kind of smoke (or mist) plainly visible,
11. Enveloping the people: this will be a Penalty Grievous.
12. (They will say: ) "Our Lord! remove the Penalty from us, for we do really believe!"
13. How shall the message be (effectual) for them, seeing that an Messenger explaining things clearly has (already) come to them,-
14. Yet they turn away from him and say: "Tutored (by others), a man possessed!"
15. We shall indeed remove the Penalty for a while, (but) truly ye will revert (to your ways).
16. One day We shall seize you with a mighty onslaught: We will indeed (then) exact Retribution!
17. We did, before them, try the people of Pharaoh: there came to them a messenger most honourable,
18. Saying: "Restore to me the Servants of Allah. I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust;
19. "And be not arrogant as against Allah. for I come to you with authority manifest.
20. "For me, I have sought safety with my Lord and your Lord, against your injuring me.
21. "If ye believe me not, at least keep yourselves away from me."
22. (But they were aggressive: ) then he cried to his Lord: "These are indeed a people given to crime."
23. (The reply came: ) "March forth with My Servants by night: for ye are sure to be pursued.
24. "And leave the sea as a furrow (divided): for they are a host (destined) to be drowned."

From Quran, Chapter 4

[Abz2000]

Btw, I was also intrigued when you spelled hazbara instead of hasbara and wanted to know more about possible causes for the anomaly - so I checked up and found that israelis often write "z" for words which are pronounced with "s". But the individual who wrote the hasbara protocols is apparently an american politician.

It may surprise you but I actually read your posts! All of them! I am still trying to figure out, - what exactly you are trying to say. It seems that it is your contention that what I SAY is dictated by some mythical book that some organization called Hasbara (not Hazbara, my mistake) put out as a guide for pro-Israel activities.

You know very well that it's not mythical, and that raises questions on the truthfulness of your claim to prior ignorance of the deceitful program, and claimed opinion that the protocols of "tzion" are a forgery (even though it is as brazen and shameless, and follows the same style and racist thinking as the hasbara handbook and the hasbara global language dictionary).

What are the giveaway traits of a Hebrew (Israeli) accent?
2 ANSWERS

Tzvi Perlow, I am an Israeli from birth, and so, Hebrew is my home language.
Updated May 21, 2014
As my title says: I am Israeli.

So, here are the traits that giveaway an Israeli.

They have a letter 'Tzadik' (צ)
My name is actually pronounced using the Tzadik.
My name is 'Tzvi', pronounced like Tsunami: 'Tsvi'
The sound is made with the teeth together and the tip of the tongue covering from behind.

Their 'R's (or 'Resh's) are pronounced like a French or German 'R'
When pronouncing an American 'R', your tongue shrivels up at the back of the mouth and your mouth gets smaller. By the French, German or Israeli, though, the tongue lies at the bottom of the mouth and the sound comes from the throat - hence the different sound.

Israelis pretty much screw up the letter 'T', as I said above and as Ido Rabin commented below:
All 'Th' combinations just become a 'D' or less commonly 'Z'
For example, these lines would be very tricky for them to say:
"Dey (- they) want da (- the) 'D'"
"Dis (- this) is a very tin (- thin) piece of pepper (- paper)"
"Der/Zer iz a big sret (- threat) to our country!)

I still have no idea how Israelis say Thor.....

NOTE: I would like to thank my mom, for speaking a flaw-full Israeli English, so that I can correctly write this post.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-g...Israeli-accent


How exacly are you supposed to pronounce the word ZION? | ...
https://answers.yahoo.com › question
Jan 27, 2010 - In English I know it's pronounced Zuh-yon (which sounds pretty weird) In Hebrew it's pronounced Tseeyon (Tziyon)

As for the pronunciations: Israelis don't pronounce Zion or Zionism the same as in English:

In Hebrew it's

Tsee-yon ציון - Zion ("TS", as mentioned, as in pizza)

Tsee-yo-noot ציונות - Zionism

As for intercourse and pen#ses,

Za-yeen is a pen#s, זין (and the seventh letter in the aleph-bet), a curse word.

Zee-yoon is a f#$k, זיון, also, not polite at all.

(Arabic uses "zina" for fornication - no wonder God describes Godless israel as an adulteress wife (zionist jews are usually secular I.e they reject the authority of God - yet use His name for security and P.R like a sl#g wife tries to use a husband for security and social status).

Zion, Tsiyon, Sion, Tziyon

So it would make sense for a middle eastern jew to write hazbara for a hebrew word when pronouncing hasbara.




It might be the israeli machine that you claim to dictate into.......




....although highly unlikely since they're usually built and programmed for international consumers (possibly also utilized for eavesdropping on international communications grabbed off the air)- and also the fact that speech to text usually has to be checked and edited by a human.


I'm not basing all of my conclusions on the spelling anomaly (although it was quite a unique difference when factoring in most other global pronounciations), but through interaction and methodology, content and pattern processed with logical reasoning.

[Grandad]

Btw, I was also intrigued when you spelled hazbara instead of hasbara and wanted to know more about possible causes for the anomaly - so I checked up and found that israelis often write "z" for words which are pronounced with "s".

As in the following (see post 186):

'There are other sects within Jewdaizm who are also anti-zionist. Together they might number about 6-7 thousands.'

[anatolian]

Who is ruling the World? America. Who is ruling America? Jews.. So it is simply only possible to bring hope to Palestine by making Muslims great again!

[Abz2000]

As in the following (see post 186):

'There are other sects within Jewdaizm who are also anti-zionist. Together they might number about 6-7 thousands.'

Zis is inseresting
A bit like saying:
"I am ze neutsral american zoe, and I am ze aghnoztic, no-sing ghrong wiz hazbara, I'm ok wiz zat."

Also from the same post:

The videos you posted show the members of Neturey Karta. They are anti-zionist. They number less then five hundred, which represents a tiny persantage of the total Jewish population.

Why would any person without a crooked vested interest make such a false claim?
The following three paragraphs are from three different articles, copy paste search a part of any to read further:

In order to understand why Neturei Karta support the Palestinians struggle we need to examine their roots: historically, Neturei Karta had split from Agudas Yisrael, a much larger Ashkenazi Orthodox organization from the late 1930s, which was then a major opponent of Zionism that would ultimately reassess its opposition to the state of Israel. Neturei Karta however, remains a zealous opponent of the Zionist movement since it believes the exile of the Jews can only be redeemed with the arrival of the Messiah and that any attempt to establish a Jewish state is an affront to God’s will.

Therefore, it claims, the state of Israel and all its institutions should be resisted or at the very least ignored. Today there are only a few thousand Neturei Karta members around the world.

Hirsch believes that Neturei Karta’s activities are positive, and that they actually help to reduce anti-Semitic ideas among many Muslims. “We meet with Palestinians all the time,” he said. “Some of them were convinced that all the Jews want to kill them and expel them from their lands. Then they met Jews who stayed true to the Torah and did not pollute themselves with invalid nationalism. Anyone can be Neturei Karta. We are an ideological movement. We have no registration or acceptance committee. Anyone who identifies with us is Neturei Karta. We know that we have plenty of support, and it is growing all the time.”

According to the US branch Neturei Karta:

"The name Neturei Karta is a name usually given to those people who regularly pray in the Neturei Karta synagogues (Torah Ve'Yirah Jerusalem, Torah U'Tefillah London, Torah U'Tefillah NY, Beis Yehudi Upstate NY, etc.), study in or send their children to educational institutions run by Neturei Karta, or actively participate in activities, assemblies or demonstrations called by the Neturei Karta".

The genocidal impact of the Holocaust (the mass murder of approximately six million Jews during World War II) devastated the Ashkenazim and their culture, affecting almost every Jewish family.[28][29] It is estimated that in the 11th century Ashkenazi Jews composed only three percent of the world's total Jewish population, while at their peak in 1931 they accounted for 92 percent of the world's Jews.

Hmmm, i knew a little about the beginning of zionist activities before the 20th century and the difficulty they were facing in getting jews to move there, along with the zionist synagogue bombings in iraq and other other countries, I hadn't thought much about why national socialism which started trying to remove german citizenship was renamed "nazi" (which became the reviled "anti-jewish" vehicle that was busy making board games such as "juden raus" (google nazi board games) and aiming to move jews that would move to mandate palestine, I knew about the nazi adolf eichmann who even travelled to palestine on the same mission, I knew about the rothschild activities and huge funding and land buying.

But i don't recall it ever occuring to me that naming the racist national socialists "nazi" would help to easily vilify ashkenazis as "antisemitic" whilst most who opposed the zionist movement and refused to move and told others not to move were killed.
I did believe that the british government was attempting to build a proxy state there in order to more easily justify their illegal aggressions in the wider region to their christian citizens and prevent them from accepting islam after wondering who God's real chosen might be.
Putting up a fake Godless israel seems to be what their narrow minds came up with.
Maybe the internet age wasn't factored in.

- - - Updated - - -

As in the following (see post 186):

'There are other sects within Jewdaizm who are also anti-zionist. Together they might number about 6-7 thousands.'

Zis is inseresting
A bit like saying:
"I am ze neutsral american zoe, and I am ze aghnoztic, no-sing ghrong wiz hazbara, I'm ok wiz zat."

Also from the same post:

The videos you posted show the members of Neturey Karta. They are anti-zionist. They number less then five hundred, which represents a tiny persantage of the total Jewish population.

Why would any person without a crooked vested interest make such a false claim?
The following three paragraphs are from three different articles, copy paste search a part of any to read further:

In order to understand why Neturei Karta support the Palestinians struggle we need to examine their roots: historically, Neturei Karta had split from Agudas Yisrael, a much larger Ashkenazi Orthodox organization from the late 1930s, which was then a major opponent of Zionism that would ultimately reassess its opposition to the state of Israel. Neturei Karta however, remains a zealous opponent of the Zionist movement since it believes the exile of the Jews can only be redeemed with the arrival of the Messiah and that any attempt to establish a Jewish state is an affront to God’s will.

Therefore, it claims, the state of Israel and all its institutions should be resisted or at the very least ignored. Today there are only a few thousand Neturei Karta members around the world.

Hirsch believes that Neturei Karta’s activities are positive, and that they actually help to reduce anti-Semitic ideas among many Muslims. “We meet with Palestinians all the time,” he said. “Some of them were convinced that all the Jews want to kill them and expel them from their lands. Then they met Jews who stayed true to the Torah and did not pollute themselves with invalid nationalism. Anyone can be Neturei Karta. We are an ideological movement. We have no registration or acceptance committee. Anyone who identifies with us is Neturei Karta. We know that we have plenty of support, and it is growing all the time.”

According to the US branch Neturei Karta:

"The name Neturei Karta is a name usually given to those people who regularly pray in the Neturei Karta synagogues (Torah Ve'Yirah Jerusalem, Torah U'Tefillah London, Torah U'Tefillah NY, Beis Yehudi Upstate NY, etc.), study in or send their children to educational institutions run by Neturei Karta, or actively participate in activities, assemblies or demonstrations called by the Neturei Karta".

The genocidal impact of the Holocaust (the mass murder of approximately six million Jews during World War II) devastated the Ashkenazim and their culture, affecting almost every Jewish family.[28][29] It is estimated that in the 11th century Ashkenazi Jews composed only three percent of the world's total Jewish population, while at their peak in 1931 they accounted for 92 percent of the world's Jews.

Hmmm, i knew a little about the beginning of zionist activities before the 20th century and the difficulty they were facing in getting jews to move there, along with the zionist synagogue bombings in iraq and other other countries, I hadn't thought much about why national socialism which started trying to remove german citizenship was renamed "nazi" (which became the reviled "anti-jewish" vehicle that was busy making board games such as "juden raus" (google nazi board games) and aiming to move jews that would move to mandate palestine, I knew about the nazi adolf eichmann who even travelled to palestine on the same mission, I knew about the rothschild activities and huge funding and land buying.

But i don't recall it ever fully occuring to me that naming the racist national socialists "nazi" would help to easily vilify ashkenazis as "antisemitic" "nazi" whilst most jews who opposed the zionist movement and refused to move and told others not to move were killed.
I did believe that the british government was attempting to build a proxy state there in order to more easily justify their illegal aggressions in the wider region to their kind of "christian" citizens and prevent them from accepting islam after wondering who God's real chosen might be.
Putting up a fake Godless israel seems to be what their narrow minds came up with.
I also have a feeling as to whysome of the most rooted jewish tribes who lived in Yemen were encouraged into singing "messiah has come to israel" songs on the aeroplane as they were moved to the sacred land by zionists after a sudden upheaval. Has something to do with psychological hacks and a blanketing over neural networks that understood something else and would get depressed via meltdown or reject after conflict and processing.
Maybe the internet information age and rational individual analyses based on all the facts available wasn't factored in.

[keiv]

There are 18 million Jews in the world.

The videos you posted show the members of Neturey Karta. They are anti-zionist. They number less then five hundred, which represents a tiny persantage of the total Jewish population.

There are other sects within Jewdaizm who are also anti-zionist. Together they might number about 6-7 thousands.

The rest of the Jews are supporting Israel.

You have no case. Your point is...well... pointless, because Neturey Karta does not speak for the Jews of the world.

You might look at the website of the World Jewish Congress to get an idea of how much support and by how many People does Israel enjoy. We are talking many millions here.

So your "argument" is to play the numbers game. Quantity vs quality? Yea, you really have no case here. Besides, you missed the point of Junon's post.

[ethnhunt]

So your "argument" is to play the numbers game. Quantity vs quality? Yea, you really have no case here. Besides, you missed the point of Junon's post.

Clearly, I missed it! What point did Junon make? Do tell...

Quality? What quality would that be? All sects, Jewish or not, have an agenda and set of believes, - all of them! Neturey Karta members 'believe' that Israel, as a country, may only be established AFTER the messiah comes, not before. That IS their 'belief'. In most other respects they are Jews, like all other Jews.

So, - what IS THAT 'quality' that they somehow mysteriously poses that you are referring too? Do tell...

[ethnhunt]

Hmmm...

Well…it is clear to me that you have no intent on getting involved in a conversation.

- - - Updated - - -

Who is ruling the World? America. Who is ruling America? Jews.. So it is simply only possible to bring hope to Palestine by making Muslims great again!

You are delusional. America is ruled by Americans! People vote here! All are Americans, including the Jews, the Christians, the Muslims, The Buddhists, the atheists, etc.

The only way Palestine becomes great for the Palestinians, if PA were to make a deal with Israel. Otherwise, I see no hope for the Palestinian Arabs. If the deal is not made, the life-style of Arabs in the West Bank will continue to decline and eventually become unbearable, while the life-style of Israelis will continue to improve.

The Arabs in the West Bank will find it impossible to exist next to their very wealthy neighbors. They would want the same economic benefits, but their leadership will not deliver it. It has never delivered it so far. The Arabs will attempt to fight and they will lose, as history has shown time and time again. And eventually that will be the end for their political aspiration.

PA, in my opinion, will continue to harbor unrealistic hopes for Israel’s demise, while ignoring their own people welfare and continue to be delusional like you. Hopefully the Arabs will rise up against their own leaders and replace them with more pragmatic people. And if not…like I said, - there is no hope for them. For example, you can take one look at Gaza and see the future of the Arabs in the West Bank. It’s going in that direction.

If deal is not made, I see Israel annexing most of the West Bank, Area ‘C’ for sure, in the next 50-100 years, perhaps leaving a small chunk of land, like Area ‘A’ (see map of West Bank), as a confederated area with Jordan for those Arabs who want to stay there.

I see that those Arabs in the West Bank who would embrace Israel as their own country, like the Druse or Samaritans or Christians or Bahaj or Mormons or 1.8 million Muslims today, remain and become Israelis. Others will move on to Jordan perhaps.

Believe me, the World will agree to this, as nothing else will look like a workable scenario. The World will take a path of minimum resistance, as it always has done.

[anatolian]

You are delusional. America is ruled by Americans! People vote here! All are Americans, including the Jews, the Christians, the Muslims, The Buddhists, the atheists, etc.

The only way Palestine becomes great for the Palestinians, if PA were to make a deal with Israel. Otherwise, I see no hope for the Palestinian Arabs. If the deal is not made, the life-style of Arabs in the West Bank will continue to decline and eventually become unbearable, while the life-style of Israelis will continue to improve.

The Arabs in the West Bank will find it impossible to exist next to their very wealthy neighbors. They would want the same economic benefits, but their leadership will not deliver it. It has never delivered it so far. The Arabs will attempt to fight and they will lose, as history has shown time and time again. And eventually that will be the end for their political aspiration.

PA, in my opinion, will continue to harbor unrealistic hopes for Israel’s demise, while ignoring their own people welfare and continue to be delusional like you. Hopefully the Arabs will rise up against their own leaders and replace them with more pragmatic people. And if not…like I said, - there is no hope for them. For example, you can take one look at Gaza and see the future of the Arabs in the West Bank. It’s going in that direction.

If deal is not made, I see Israel annexing most of the West Bank, Area ‘C’ for sure, in the next 50-100 years, perhaps leaving a small chunk of land, like Area ‘A’ (see map of West Bank), as a confederated area with Jordan for those Arabs who want to stay there.

I see that those Arabs in the West Bank who would embrace Israel as their own country, like the Druse or Samaritans or Christians or Bahaj or Mormons or 1.8 million Muslims today, remain and become Israelis. Others will move on to Jordan perhaps.

Believe me, the World will agree to this, as nothing else will look like a workable scenario. The World will take a path of minimum resistance, as it always has done.

If you think America is ruled by a president whom people chose, you are the one delusional. There is no real democracy in America. Why do you have only two parties? And why their votes are so close in each election campaign? And why do you think the presidency change from one to other in every 8 years? Democrats have a mission and Republicans have another mission. Its more like Democrats prepare the way for Republicans and Reps take the action. If you read my posts before the last elections you will see I was sure of Trump although the surveys showing Clington. These are all arranged by some powerful Jews ruling America. Rockefellers are on top.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

The older you get you realise how overrated democracy is.

And yes their disproportionate influence on American politics, economics and culture is rather disconcerting. Of course your not allowed to mention it.





Anyway another update. Another Israeli (and thankfully failed) attempt to take over Al Aqsa.

Al-Aqsa: One encroachment too many?

The metal detector fiasco at al-Aqsa compound is the latest step in Israel's gradual encroachment on Palestinian land.

The metal detectors at the entrance to the al-Aqsa Mosque compound were no more than the latest hurdle on a long and bumpy road. And in a sense, their removal was also part of a deal struck by HM King Abdullah II with PM Benjamin Netanyahu for the return of Israeli embassy officials to Jerusalem following the Israeli embassy "incident" in Amman, in which an Israeli embassy security guard shot dead two Jordanian citizens.

But this was not the first such hurdle, and it was not merely about airport-style machines either. I am long enough in the tooth to remember the Six-Day War of 1967 when Israeli Jews exclaimed triumphantly that they would finally pray at the Temple Mount.

Since those days, this walled territory of 35 acres (or 144 dunams) that is known interchangeably as the Noble Sanctuary (al-Haram al-Sharif) or al-Aqsa compound, has been the scene of many ugly events and challenging standoffs.

Remember 1969 when al-Qabali Mosque was set on fire, or Black Monday in 1990 when 20 Palestinians were killed in the al-Aqsa Massacre? Remember also the 63 people who died in 1996 during the protests over the opening of a new tunnel by the Israelis under the Western Wall? Or the second Intifada in 2000 that was set off in part by Ariel Sharon prancing around on the compound? Since then, confrontations between Palestinians and Israeli settlers protected by Israeli forces have led to an escalation of violence in both Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

In fact, what Israel has been doing over many long years is pursuing its political aims of encroaching on Palestinian lands through religious prisms. It is simple: appropriate the lands on the basis of a political ideology and then claim that they are being taken for religious purposes. In fact, Israel has mooted a similar concept of sharing this Noble Sanctuary by Jews and Muslims.

It has suggested time-sharing and space-sharing whereby Muslims and Jews would enter the al-Aqsa Mosque compound for prayer at separate times. In so doing, it has used the arrangements at the Ibrahimi Mosque (known to Jews as the Cave of Patriarchs) in Hebron as a future template for Jerusalem. In Hebron, for instance, Jews enjoy the use of 60 percent of the mosque while Muslims have 40 percent only.

Consequently, Jewish religious settlers have been fighting to seize those rights on religious grounds and government officials have encouraged them for political reasons. Only this week, al-Resalah newspaper reported Bezalel Smotrich from the Jewish Home party calling for the building of a synagogue inside the al-Aqsa Mosque courtyard.

It is a heady mix when religion and politics coalesce in such an inflammatory manner. And the outcome is that any opening is grabbed to introduce new realities on the ground. After all, has this not been the case all along with illegal settlements?

The metal detectors, in their own right, are one small factor. But viewed more broadly, they become a tool for the gradual control of Palestinian territory in such a way that it does not jolt Arab and Muslim sensibilities let alone ruffle the international community - including the EU. And any enhancement in the rights of Israeli Jews would ineluctably lead to a reduction in the rights of Palestinian Muslims - until such day as Muslims in Palestine and elsewhere wake up to the fact that the arrangements of Hebron had been cloned in Jerusalem too.

But there was a difference. In the past, the Arab and Muslim worlds have defended the rights of Palestinians to this third holiest site for Islam. From Saudi Arabia to Morocco, and from Egypt to Jordan, these countries had used their moral and political stature to impede the unfurling of such predatory designs.

Following the Arab uprisings of 2010-2011 though, the political topography of the region has changed noticeably - in some cases subtly and in others more bluntly. These days, the Arab masses are far too busy with their own Sisyphean struggles against the despotism of their rulers to clamour for Palestinian rights. In fact, Palestine nowadays garners more support outside the Arab World than inside it.

Few are the Arab governments that still support Palestinian rights - be they for self-determination or for movement and worship. Indeed, new alliances are clearly being forged, and new enmities are also being honed: Israel is more of a strategic ally with whom to share intelligence than to fight over holy sites and peoples' usurped rights. With Iran the arch-nemesis of some Arab leaders, the enemy of my enemy becomes my friend.

This is why it pains me to watch the so-called Anti-Terror Quartet expending so much theatrics blockading Qatar - one of their own - and castigating it for actions that are no different from those of its accusers. Would it not be better if they invested their time, energy and money defending Arab rights that are being pilfered stealthily but progressively?

Political mistakes have often tended to come back and haunt Arab leaders: I hope this will not be the case here too.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...075521941.html

[Futuwwa]

Hmmmm, an agnostic who uses "G-d", do the computers at your place automatically censor the term "God" and change it to "G-d" or is it the central server?

I noticed the same. There's also this:

Indeed, I do agree with you. I assure you that nobody in Israel would ever commit genocide.

The choice of words here ("assure") implies speaking as one of the group, on behalf of it. Little slips like that are found throughout this thread.

It's also noteworthy how he from time to time makes a pretense of acknowledging Palestinian rights, yet, curiously enough, what he acknowledges that the Palestinians have a legitimate right to happens to match almost perfectly with what Israel has offered them in peace negotiations. It's like his position is carefully calibrated to appear as even-handed as possible without actually needing to admit any wrongdoing by Israel.

Abz, we've had our differences. Heck, we *have* differences. I frankly consider your peddling of conspiracy theories to be an intellectual cancer that's holding the Ummah back. In this case, however, I'm quite inclined to believe we're dealing with an actual, real, genuine shill.

[Abz2000]

I noticed the same. There's also this:



The choice of words here ("assure") implies speaking as one of the group, on behalf of it. Little slips like that are found throughout this thread.

It's also noteworthy how he from time to time makes a pretense of acknowledging Palestinian rights, yet, curiously enough, what he acknowledges that the Palestinians have a legitimate right to happens to match almost perfectly with what Israel has offered them in peace negotiations. It's like his position is carefully calibrated to appear as even-handed as possible without actually needing to admit any wrongdoing by Israel.

Abz, we've had our differences. Heck, we *have* differences. I frankly consider your peddling of conspiracy theories to be an intellectual cancer that's holding the Ummah back. In this case, however, I'm quite inclined to believe we're dealing with an actual, real, genuine shill.

The human brain is so amazing, it can sometimes be tricked into accepting certain illogical notions or plain fallacies (benefit of doubt, incredulity and the resulting wiped sandbox after laughter despite the saved repetitions that the brain is forced to store as revised info, something new and incomparable to other events etc) until it gets more information an processes it critically and calibrates based on a wide range of information, it's sometimes amazing once an uninvolved past tense angle is taken since history is looked at more critically than the imposing present.

Genuine opinions feel to me like a widening of the knowledge database, fake ones feel like a malicious virus attempting to corrupt the information pool.

Regarding conspiracy "theories" - history is full of conspiracies, and the lives of the Prophets are packed with them, satan's method itself is based on conspiracy, conniving, and plots to mislead, corrupt and destroy the human race, so i have no problem with curiously looking into different angles on a topic in order to get a better footing.

Since (and including) the fall of Adam, every major failing of mankind appears to have been rooted in some conspiracy or other, noah says: wa makaroo makran kubbaaraa, with pharaoh and his mafia government, it was always a case of conspiring and manipulating from behind the scences, with others including the opponents of Jesus, it was often a case of conspiring and then sitting around on the public way and in the councils and casting ridicule, suspicion and enmity with irrational arguments.
The conspiracies that led up to the first, the continued sanctions, the second iraq war, and the deceitful and criminal war on "terror" are no theories, i assure you (hopefully the term assurance fits here due to absence of doubt) they were real conspiracies, and such conspiracies continue and magnify until mankind has enough and throws off the fear of thinking for themselves due to people rolling eyes at them and winking in mockery (inna haa ulaa-i la dhuaalloon ;) )

Regarding "intellectual cancer holding the ummah back" it has absolutely no bearing on the thread and it would go off topic if i asked you to clarify on this thread - but i would be more than happy to discuss and build on the topic and subsequent understanding on another thread as long as i believe that the concerns of anyone who comments are genuine and not simply posted for trolling and misleading purposes. Honestly, :) try it and you'll know that i'm being truthful, this appears to be a serious concern that would require an answer in order for legitimate concerns to be clarified.

[Muhammad]

ethnhunt,

Whilst we allow people of different backgrounds and religions to post on our forum, coming here solely to promote Zionism and anti-Muslim rhetoric is unacceptable. This is especially the case when one more than one member has pointed out the disingenuousness of your replies such than an honest discussion cannot even take place.

I have read some of your replies here and I am disgusted by your blind support for, as one writer put it: 'a Zionist military outpost in the Middle East masquerading as a nation state. It has never possessed legitimacy by standards of international law and is founded on on-going forced expulsions of people, land-theft and military occupation. Neither has it ever possessed moral legitimacy being the principal aggressor in the epic 70 year suffering of the indigenous Palestinian people.'

I am not sure who you are trying to fool with your ridiculous claims of Israel merely being defensive or that the lives of Arabs 'improved tremendously' under their brutal control. This is while your Israeli friends cheer, whoop and whistle as bombs rain down on people in a hellish warzone a few miles away. You should be ashamed of your woeful justifications of Israeli oppression by claiming everybody else violates human rights, so it 'does not matter'. For someone who says they are neither a Jew nor an Israeli, you should learn a thing or two from those in this thread who were both and have seen with their own eyes that Israel has no interest in a Palestinian State.

It is time you woke up from your delusion and realised that Israel has never, and will never, bring peace and stability to the region. We only have to look to 70 years of occupation, death and destruction to observe this self-evident truth. It is better, ethnhunt, to confine your hatred of the Arabs to your own Zionist circles than waste everyone's time here. For this reason, you will find yourself expelled from this forum; something which, no doubt, you will be very familiar with.

[Grandad]

ethnhunt,

Whilst we allow people of different backgrounds and religions to post on our forum, coming here solely to promote Zionism and anti-Muslim rhetoric is unacceptable. This is especially the case when one more than one member has pointed out the disingenuousness of your replies such than an honest discussion cannot even take place.

I have read some of your replies here and I am disgusted by your blind support for, as one writer put it: 'a Zionist military outpost in the Middle East masquerading as a nation state. It has never possessed legitimacy by standards of international law and is founded on on-going forced expulsions of people, land-theft and military occupation. Neither has it ever possessed moral legitimacy being the principal aggressor in the epic 70 year suffering of the indigenous Palestinian people.'

I am not sure who you are trying to fool with your ridiculous claims of Israel merely being defensive or that the lives of Arabs 'improved tremendously' under their brutal control. This is while your Israeli friends cheer, whoop and whistle as bombs rain down on people in a hellish warzone a few miles away. You should be ashamed of your woeful justifications of Israeli oppression by claiming everybody else violates human rights, so it 'does not matter'. For someone who says they are neither a Jew nor an Israeli, you should learn a thing or two from those in this thread who were both and have seen with their own eyes that Israel has no interest in a Palestinian State.

It is time you woke up from your delusion and realised that Israel has never, and will never, bring peace and stability to the region. We only have to look to 70 years of occupation, death and destruction to observe this self-evident truth. It is better, ethnhunt, to confine your hatred of the Arabs to your own Zionist circles than waste everyone's time here. For this reason, you will find yourself expelled from this forum; something which, no doubt, you will be very familiar with.

Excellent!

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Understand how Zionists think. The goyim must obey.

From Netanyahu’s infamous “Fink’s Bar diatribe” of 1990

“If we get caught they will just replace us with persons of the same cloth. So it does not matter what you do, America is a golden calf and we will suck it dry, chop it up, and sell it off piece by piece until there is nothing left but the world’s biggest welfare state that we will create and control. Why? Because it is the will of God and America is big enough to take the hit so we can do it again and again and again. This is what we do to countries that we hate. We destroy them very slowly and make them suffer for refusing to be our slaves.”

Of course he now denies he meant anything by it, he loves America!

One way to deal with Zionist shills and their misdirection game.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Update on the situation in Gaza

Gaza crisis reaches boiling point

BEIRUT, LEBANON (3:00 P.M.) – The ongoing humanitarian crisis in the besieged Gaza Strip is quickly coming to a boiling point.

The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) on the 11th of August expressed their “deep concerns” for the intensifying conditions in the humanitarian crisis and when we look at the situation it’s really not hard to see why they are concerned.

The situation in Gaza:

Right now, the current situation in the Gaza strip is perhaps the worst it has ever been. If you are a 9 year old child in Gaza, you have lived through three separate wars, with each war delivering a different horror, ranging from illegally dropped white phosphorous, to the targeting of Gaza’s sewerage system and other essential facilities like Gaza’s only power plant.

Over 80% of Gazan’s currently rely upon international food aid to live, 96% of their the water is completely undrinkable, the unemployment rate in Gaza is 46%, over 60% amongst the youth and all these problems are being exacerbated by the recent ongoing (4 month) crisis.

Roughly eighty percent of Gazan’s currently receive only 2 hours (per day) of electricity due to the recent power crisis. The lack of electricity means that most of Gaza’s hospital facilities are rendered un-operational, with half of Gaza’s hospitals completely closing down.

Gazan’s are robbed of the right to self determination via agricultural means and cannot store fish that they catch (from the areas they are restricted to fishing within) due to lack of refrigeration means. Fishermen will often be targeted within Israel’s imposed zones and will be killed for no reason other than the Israelis felt like shooting.

Gaza is also deprived by Israel of the electricity necessary to pump sewerage properly, which results in sewage running into the streets, this has spiked an increase in disease. In Israel, Ashkelon beach has even been deemed un-swimmable as a result of their own policies – employed to strangle the population of Gaza – pouring over into their backyard.
Feel like leaving Gaza for medical reasons or study? Good luck! The only two exits are extremely hard to pass through with the Erez (Gaza-Israel crossing) racking up a 84% decline rate this year and the Rafah crossing (Egypt-Gaza crossing) is perhaps even harder to pass through, as the crossing opens randomly for short periods of time which are often unpredictable.

Ever since the Oslo accords Israel has officially (by international law) had the requirement to take care of the humanitarian situation (until Gaza gets self determination) and operate justly along the armistice lines which encompass Gaza (established in the early 1950’s).

The Israeli regime ignore international law with their illegally imposed siege and as they enter the eleventh year of the siege (as of June this year), they are now rolling out a two year “underground wall” building plan which will cage Gaza from under the ground. This move makes it evident that Israel do not want to end the siege any time soon (against international consensus).

This is just a brief outline of Gaza’s current condition for it’s two million plus inhabitants (most of whom are refugees), there are of course a plethora of other issues not noted above.

Hamas and their choices:

Since Mahmoud Abbas (President of the PA) set out on his mission to seize control of Gaza, the situation has only gotten worse and the pressure is really mounting on Hamas to act.

Mahmoud Abbas pleaded with Israel to shut down the power supply to Gaza and refused to pay Israeli companies to deliver Gaza it’s diesel fuel supply, on top of this the PA decided to slash the salaries of their members in Gaza by up to 70% sending many families below the poverty line.

The elected government in Gaza (Hamas) have also been backed into a corner as of late with the recent Gulf conflict between Qatar and neighboring countries. As a result of the tensions, Doha has been pressured extensively by Saudi Arabia to halt their funding and cut relations with Hamas.

Turkey, which provided Gaza with a donation of diesel fuel earlier this year (in February), seem to be very active in verbally advocating for the end to al-Aqsa tensions, but not so active in it’s aiding of the people of Gaza recently.

Hamas themselves can’t be regarded as angels in all of this of course, refusing to use donated oil trucks from Egypt due to political tensions and refusing much needed aid from Iran.

According to a leaked source (supposedly from within Hamas), it is being alleged that Hamas are considering giving up civilian control of Gaza and assuming military control of the strip alone in order to create a power vacuum, they would in this case hand control of the crossings to the likes of Islamic Jihad and other Islamist groups and this would be used as plan to keep the PA’s hands off of power in Gaza.

This plan – although denied by Hamas to be the case – could be one of many ways this could all escalate into a fourth military confrontation with the Israeli regime. If something similar to this plan was to be implemented, a war would be very possible.

Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party is currently loosing favor in Israel and is loosing its following to far right parties. Netanyahu – who is currently under investigation for fraud – also knows that Israeli public opinion will skyrocket in his favor in the event of a conflict.

Despite a war being in their interests in terms of public opinion, the current state of Gaza is exactly how the Israeli regime wants it, in chaos with a crippling government and humanitarian catastrophe. So what happens next all depends upon which cards Hamas play.

All in all it seems as if the people of Gaza continue to bleed as the greed of politicians further ruin their lives. Israel wants rid of the Palestinians in Gaza and instead of uniting under one cause for the betterment of the people, Palestinian political parties play into the hands of their enemies by making the lives of the people in Gaza completely unbearable and devoid of any glimpse of hope.

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/gaza-crisis-reaches-boiling-point/

[سيف الله]

Salaam

A look at the Jewish impact on world history. Well worth watching whether you agree or disagree with his arguments or conclusions.

[Futuwwa]

Salaam

A look at the Jewish impact on world history. Well worth watching whether you agree or disagree with his arguments or conclusions.

The fact that there were a disproportionate number of Jews in Communist parties is nothing special. The same was true for all kinds of 19th and 20th century revolutionary movements, for the simple reason that Jews were numerically overrepresented among the social class that most revolutionaries come from - the intellectual middle class. Which, in turn, is a consequence of the social evolution they have been subjected to in Europe, where for most of their history they have been barred from mainstream society and forced into very specific professions and ways of living.

All kinds of bigots like to claim their bigotry is fact-based by pointing out how this or that group is overrepresented in this or that thing, whether it's Jews in Communist parties, or Muslims in terrorism.

[anatolian]

Where is Marx in the picture? lol. Marx was a Jew too. Probably, he was the most influencial Jew (ethnicity) after Paul in the history of Mankind.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Where is Marx in the picture? lol. Marx was a Jew too. Probably, he was the most influencial Jew (ethnicity) after Paul in the history of Mankind.

He himself wrote a book 'On The Jewish Question'.

Another update

Sadat to Salman: Israel at the expense of Palestine

Israel and Saudi Arabia have been the hot subject of speculation and gossip in recent weeks. Not a day goes by without us hearing about their latest rendezvous, their winks and whims, their flirtations and fantasies.

I'm not sure Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman did indeed make a secret trip to Tel Aviv, but I did see former Saudi and Israeli intelligence chiefs share a stage at a New York synagogue last month.

The hilarity - or rather, the calamity - of the scene transcended the attempt at normality from former head of Saudi intelligence, Prince Turki Al Faisal, with his English gentleman's red socks, as he disagreed on stage with former Mossad director Efraim Halevy, as the latter argued in favour of maintaining the Iran nuclear deal. When an Israeli spymaster sounds like a moderate in comparison to his Saudi counterpart regarding a "fellow Muslim nation", it's time to be alarmed.

At any rate, since Prince Turki's "flirtation" with another former Israeli spy and ex-foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, in Davos in January, informal meetings and overtures between the Israelis and the Saudis seem to have multiplied. Bahrain and the UAE have also joined in. Their objective is to prepare the public for the shock of normalisation, to normalise the idea of future normalisation with Israel.

Love and hate

The attraction between the Wahabi and Zionist leaders may be neither halal nor kosher, but it's nonetheless strong and getting stronger. And it's nothing new.

Their rapprochement is born out of necessity and driven, primarily, by mutual aversion rather than mutual attraction: aversion to the Iranian regime and fear of its expanding influence in the region. As those feelings grow, so does their relationship, in accordance with the realist proverb: my enemy's enemy is my friend.

Indeed, US President Donald Trump noticed with great satisfaction the "really good feeling towards Israel" in Saudi Arabia after his May visit to both countries. Since then he's been godfathering a trilateral arrangement with Israel and Saudi Arabia to confront Iran's "fanatical regime"and its regional aggression.

In an interview with the Saudi publication Elaph earlier this month - yet another sign of normalisation - Israel's military chief of staff, Gadi Eisenkot, explained how Iran threatens both Saudi Arabia and Israel through not one but two parallel (Shia) crescents of influence that cross the region. To the north, one goes through Iraq, Syria and Lebanon and to the Mediterranean Sea; and to the south, a second goes through the Gulf region, Yemen and to the banks of the Red Sea.

Marriages of convenience have been built on much less.

Gains and losses

Judging from their public declarations, Israelis are terribly impatient. They want to take the Saudi relationship to a whole new level; they want to "go steady" and they want to come out. And they want it yesterday. Their generation-old (wet) dream of public strategic engagement with moderate Sunni Arab regimes is finally coming true.

Israel has everything to gain and, if it can help it, nothing to lose, from the normalisation of relations with Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states. It could see its relations improve dramatically with many of the other 55 Muslim-majority countries, just as it saw a huge spike in its diplomatic and economic relations around the world after the 1993 Oslo Accords, including with the likes of Jordan and Qatar. Doha shut down Israel's trade office in the Gulf country in 2009 after the Israeli offensive on Gaza.

For Israel, shared strategic interests and shared goals with Saudi Arabia should suffice to normalise their relations and strengthen their union. But as Israeli Energy Minister Yuval Steinitz's latest revelations about Israel's long "sharing of intelligence" have shown, it's Riyadh, not Tel Aviv, that insists on secrecy out of a sense of shame.

When Saudi Arabia committed to a peace initiative that became an Arab League initiative in 2002, it expressed willingness to normalise relations with Israel but only after Israel's withdrawal from Palestinian and Arab territories and the establishment of a Palestinian state.

For Riyadh, quick and unconditional normalisation with its historical nemesis has long been a risky proposition for the kingdom and its regional standing. Even its more enthusiastic neighbour, the United Arab Emirates, has been, in the words of one Israeli expert, a silent partner.

Not any more.

New leadership, new policy

It was quite shocking to see the above-mentioned Saudi interview with Israeli chief of staff totally and utterly ignore the Palestinian issue. That's clearly no mistake or lapse of journalistic judgment - it's intentional. And it's politically motivated.

Has the Saudi (and UAE) leadership accepted Israel's generous offer on Iran in return for ignoring the plight of Palestine? Or does Riyadh still insist on Israel accepting the Arab initiative before formal normalisation begins?

It seems the Saudis and Israelis are waiting for clarifications and answers from President Trump's proposal - what he promises will be the "ultimate deal" to resolve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. For example, will the US ask Israel to withdraw from East Jerusalem or will it pressure the Saudis to pressure the Palestinians to give up their right to a state and a capital? Or, perhaps, leave it in limbo?

Spare yourselves the suspense. The "ultimate deal" is the ultimate BS.

Why? Well, because the boy-wonder that Trump appointed as the best man for the job of resolving the century-old conflict is none other than his son-in-law, Jared Kushner - a lousy businessman and a religious Zionist, whose claim to fame is marrying the right girl at the right time. It's not even clear whether Kushner's White House career will survive the Russia investigation, since Special Counsel Robert Mueller is reportedly after him for his role in the dismissal of FBI chief James Comey. Mueller is also looking into Kushner's secret policy coordination with Israel's PM Benjamin Netanyahu to undermine the Obama administration during a UN vote on Israeli illegal settlements in Palestine.

In my estimation, the Trump administration will fail to produce a credible and comprehensive peace strategy, and, like its predecessors, it will fail to resolve the "Israel problem" or stop the colonisation of Palestine. Likewise, the administration has no real actionable Iran strategy, and lacks the will and the intention to confront Iran in various hotspots of the greater Middle East.

Tweeting Iran into submission doesn't require Israeli or Saudi participation. Trump is more than capable.

Consequently, if the Saudi royals normalise with the "Zionist usurpers" of Jerusalem, they'll find out that they've been exposed on all fronts. They'll learn that Israel won't fight their battles for them. And they will also discover, rather late, that instead of putting Iran in a corner, normalisation with Israel in the absence of peace will empower and propagate Iran's role in the region.

And there's more.

Before the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques surrenders al-Aqsa to the "Zionists" or before the Salmans raise Israeli flags in Riyadh, it's worthwhile to consider the consequences of the late Egyptian President Anwar Sadat's normalisation with Israel. Bear in mind that Saudi Arabia, unlike Egypt, does not seek to liberate territories from Israeli occupation and desires no aid from the United States.

Four decades later...

Forty years ago this week, then-Egyptian President Anwar Sadat made a diplomatic splash when he visited Israel and spoke to the Knesset. It broke a psychological barrier in the Arab world, marked a turning point in the conflict with Israel, and saw the beginning of Egypt's official normalisation of relations with Israel.

Sadat cemented that process into a cold peace the following year, signing the Camp David accords, which guaranteed the return of occupied Sinai and billions of dollars in aid from the US, but neglected the occupied territories of the rest of the Arabs, including the Palestinians.

A militant Egyptian group assassinated Sadat during a military parade three years later, but his successor Hosni Mubarak continued to honour the agreement. Sinai was returned and the aid came through, but the bigger promise of modernisation, openness and peace dividend never really materialised, certainly not for ordinary Egyptians.

For the people of Egypt, normalisation with Israel never became normal. The Egyptian people remained mostly hostile or indifferent towards their neighbour to the north. And Palestine continued to be a rallying cause for Egyptian civil society, in their pursuit of justice and freedom from repression.

But for Israel, normalisation was a bounty. With its southern flanks secured, it began a large campaign of repression against Palestinians and escalation of its illegal settlement activities in occupied East Jerusalem and the rest of the occupied Palestinian territories. Israel annexed the occupied Syrian Golan Heights in 1981. And in 1982, it invaded Lebanon to crush the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Lebanese National Movement, which led to tens of thousands of casualties. It maintained its occupation of southern Lebanon for the next 18 years. Israel's status was elevated soon after from US regional ally to global "strategic asset".

Forty years ago, there was no Palestinian Hamas and no Lebanese Hezbollah, no al-Qaeda and ISIL, and no Islamic Republic of Iran. But soon after the Camp David accords, Israeli aggression paved the way for the rise of Hamas and Hezbollah, just as Soviet and US aggression - coupled with Arab discord - plunged the region into chaos and paved the way for the rise of militant Islamists.

Betraying Palestine

The lessons couldn't be clearer. Arab autocrats, who fail in governance and in war, also fail in peace and normalisation.

Normalisation through weakness is the exact opposite of peace through strength, and therefore, is destined to fail. It is an idea that is tinged with betrayal: betrayal of common Arab interests, as well as the betrayal of Palestine.

For the people of the Arab world, Palestine has long been a rallying cause because it's about more than geography or a homeland for the Palestinian people. Palestine is the test of Arab conscience, the symbol of the struggle for freedom, not only from military occupation, but also from political repression at home.

Those who shed tears over Arab unity and national security in Cairo this week are the very regimes cooperating with Israel in secret. Their incompetence has paved the way for Israel, Iran and the US to run amok in the region.

When the regional hysteria finally ceases, when the hallucination subsides, history will cast a harsh judgment on the cynics who normalise with Israel at the expense of Palestine.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...073734966.html

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

Trump tells Abbas he will move US embassy to Jerusalem

US President Donald Trump has told Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas that he intends to relocate the US embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, a plan met with condemnation across the Middle East and elsewhere.

Wafa, the official news agency of the Palestinian Authority (PA), reported on Tuesday that Trump called Abbas to inform him of his "intention".

"President Abbas warned of the dangerous consequences such a decision would have to the peace process and to the peace, security and stability of the region and of the world," Nabil Abu Rudeina, the Palestinian president's spokesperson, said.

No further details were given about when Trump plans to move the embassy.

Speaking to reporters later on Tuesday, White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said Trump will deliver remarks about his decision on Wednesday.

"He's going to continue having conversations with relevant stakeholders, but ultimately he'll make what he thinks is the best decision for the United States," said Sanders.

Asked if Trump has made up his mind, she replied: "The president, I would say, is pretty solid in his thinking at this point."

Earlier on Tuesday, a statement by the Jordanian royal palace said Trump had also called King Abdullah to inform him about his intention to move the embassy to Jerusalem.

The statement said the king warned Trump the relocation would have "dangerous repercussions on the stability and security of the region" and would also inflame Muslim and Christian feelings.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/trump-tells-abbas-move-embassy-jerusalem-171205160340393.html

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update more bad news

Trump ignores warnings with 'reckless Jerusalem move'

President Donald Trump has announced that the US formally recognises Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and will begin the process of moving its embassy to the city, breaking with decades of US policy.

"I have determined that it is time to officially recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel," Trump said in a televised speech on Wednesday.

The president said he ordered the State Department to develop plan to relocate the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

He added he is not taking position on any final status issues, including contested borders. Trump said he intends "to do everything" in his power to help forge a peace deal between Israelis and Palestinians.

Shortly after Trump's speech, Saeb Erekat, the chief Palestinian negotiator, said the US president "destroyed any possibility of peace" and was "pushing this region towards chaos [and] violence".

"He's destroying all moderates in the region and he's giving power to extremists," Erekat told Al Jazeera from Jericho.

"This is the most dangerous decision that any US president has ever taken," he said, adding that Trump had "disqualified his country from any possible role in the peace process".

"How can he talk about peace when he dictates the future of Jerusalem before negotiations begin, in total violation of international law?" asked Erekat, saying it is "meaningless" to have a Palestinian state without Jerusalem as its capital.

The only option remaining for Palestinians, he said, "is to fight for equal rights" between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, the area of historic Palestine.

US analysts say Trump's announcement might be intended as an opening move in the administration's yet-to-be revealed Middle East peace plan, but risks igniting a "powder keg" at the heart of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

"Jerusalem has a tendency to explode when you fool around with the status quo," said Aaron David Miller, vice president at the Woodrow Wilson Center and a former Middle East adviser to the Clinton and Bush administrations.

He said the president's decision could either be part of a strategic plan or a "one-off" born from his desire to fulfil his election campaign promise.

"Some might argue that the president has succeeded at extracting certain assurances from the [Israeli] prime minister on other permanent status issues, but needed this for cover," Miller said. "I'd love to believe … that there is a coherence here, but if there is, I am at a loss to understand what it is."

The immediate grounds for Trump's announcement was the expiration of the latest six-month waiver delaying relocation of the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

The 1995 Jerusalem Embassy Act requires the US government to establish an embassy in Jerusalem, but allows the president to delay doing so by signing a waiver every six months. The waiver spares the state department financial penalties for failing to comply with the law.

Presidents Bush and Obama signed the waiver twice per year with little fanfare. However, Trump has long hinted he would deviate from his predecessors.

In the lead-up to Wednesday's speech, Mustafa Marghouti, an independent Palestinian politician, told Al Jazeera: "This is a reckless act from the side of the American president ... . This is a very dangerous act.

"It does not take into consideration what it means to 1.6 billion Muslims, 2.2 billion Christians and 360 million Arabs.

"It will create a very serious reaction and destabilise the region - and definitely destabilise the situation in Palestine itself."

Alienating Arabs

On the campaign trail, candidate Trump promised to move the embassy to Jerusalem and, according to Senator Bob Corker, was ready to do so on day one of his presidency.

When Trump used his waiver power last June, an unnamed White House official was quoted saying the move was "a question of when, not if".

Trump's announcement risks alienating Palestinians and Arab countries that would be key to any peace plan, experts say.

"Accepting to move the embassy to Jerusalem means that the US is participating with Israel in imposing facts on the ground," Barghouti told Al Jazeera.

"This is not a single [isolated] act. This US administration that did not speak even once about a two-state solution. This American administration did not say or mention the world Palestinian state once.

"This American administration has failed to exercise any pressure on Israel on the issue of settlements, although Israel has enhanced settlement activities in the occupied territories by no less than 100 percent since President Trump was elected."

For his part, Miller said that by recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital, Trump is implicitly "validating Israeli claims and sovereignty over part of the city that is aspired to by another national movement".

Brian Katulis, a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, said the Trump administration has been signalling it will soon debut a plan to resolve one of the world's longest and most intractable conflicts. Wednesday's announcement could be an opening salvo in that plan - an attempt to open discussions.

"If that's what this is, it's likely to backfire given the initial reaction we've seen from some of our closest allies and partners like Jordan," Katulis said.

Public outcry could prime Arab governments to eschew rather than embrace US proposals, he said.

In a statement, John O. Brennan, former director of the Central Intelligence Agency, also called Trump's action "reckless", saying it would "damage US interests in the Middle East for years to come and will make the region more volatile".

Message to Palestinians

The announcement is likely to dash hopes that the US would give equal weight to Palestinian concerns in future negotiations - hopes raised when administration officials made an effort to meet Palestinian leaders earlier this year.

"I think this will send a message that US administrations have been sending for years: that the Palestinians are not as important as the Israelis, or their views are not as important," said Katulis.

Jerusalem has long been a flashpoint in Israeli-Palestinian relations. Violence broke out most recently last summer, after Israeli authorities installed metal detectors at entrances to the al-Aqsa compound.

"I can't predict violence - I don't know," said Miller. "But certainly, if you wanted to make an issue out of this, a quote-unquote 'defence of Jerusalem,' it's a ready-made issue."

World leaders have warned violent reactions to the US embassy announcement are a distinct possibility.

King Abdullah II of Jordan - speaking at a press conference in Istanbul with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Wednesday - said the US was inviting blowback with the decision.

"Ignoring the Palestinian, Muslim, and Christian rights in Jerusalem will only fuel further extremism and undermine the war against terrorism," Abdullah said.

Erdogan also highlighted the threat of violence after the US decision.

"No one has the right to play with the fate and development of millions of people for the sake of personal ambitions. Such a step will only play into the hands of terror groups," Turkey's president said.

But analysts said the embassy decision will please religious conservatives among Trump's base, as well as major donors.

Rabbi Alissa Wise, deputy director of the left-wing advocacy group Jewish Voice for Peace, said US evangelical Christians - who voted overwhelmingly for Trump in the 2016 election - are staunch supporters of Israel's right-wing government. Wise also cited billionaire Sheldon Adelson, one of Trump's largest campaign donors, as a possible source of pressure on the president to back Israel's claim to a united Jerusalem.

Wise is worried the decision would frame a political struggle over land, rights and sovereignty in religious terms.

"Because Jerusalem is a symbol of holiness to so many religions, creating a tension around Jerusalem runs the risk of shaping or framing this conflict as a religious one, which I think gets us further and further away from a more equitable solution," Wise said.

"It really is a match in the powder keg, a decision like this."

For his part, Barghouti said: "This is an administration that obviously is, to a large extent, taking its decision according to the will and pressure of the Israeli Zionist lobby in Washington.

"The Palestinian people will react, with a public, popular non-violent uprising. That's what you will see tomorrow, after tomorrow and the days after.

"This is a very serious matter. People should not forget that the second intifada started because of the issue of Jerusalem and I believe that ... Trump will be killing completely any future American role in any future peace process."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/trump-defies-warnings-reckless-jerusalem-decision-171206160643273.html

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More comment

Mass rally in Gaza protesting Trump’s decision on Jerusalem

Palestinian factions on Wednesday organized a mass rally in Gaza City, denouncing US President Donald Trump's plan to transfer the US embassy to Jerusalem and to recognize it as the capital of the Israeli occupation.

Member of the political bureau of the movement, Salah Al-Bardawil, said during the march that the Palestinian people will thwart the schemes of Trump like previous schemes, and will continue to struggle until the liberation of their land and holy sites.

Al-Bardawil said, “The world must understand that our resistance and uprising will not show mercy to all those responsible for the oppression of the Palestinian people and their schemes that aim to distort our Palestinian history”.

He stressed that Palestine from its sea to its river is the native land of the Palestinian people and no party has the power to steal it from them.

In a speech during the march, the Palestinian factions considered the decision as an American occupation of the city of Jerusalem, stressing the need to accelerate the reconciliation process in order to address Trump’s plan.

The factions demanded that the PLO withdraw its recognition of Israel, calling for the severing of relations with the occupation and ending the normalization.

In the same context, the League of Arab States and the Organization of Islamic Cooperation also called for an emergency meeting to respond to Trump ‘s decision.

http://hamas.ps/en/post/1095/mass-rally-in-gaza-protesting-trump%E2%80%99s-decision-on-jerusalem

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Prince Mohammed Bin Salman showing where his allegiances truly lies.

Saudi offers Abu Dis as future capital of Palestine

A Saudi proposal for a peace initiative between Israelis and Palestinians offers the village of Abu Dis as the future capital of Palestine instead of East Jerusalem, stirring widespread anger.

Activists have released a new hashtag under the name “Jerusalem is our capital” in response to the Saudi proposal.

The New York Times reported on Sunday that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman made the proposal during Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’ visit to Riyadh last month.

According to the proposal, the Palestinians will get a non-contiguous state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip over which they will have only partial sovereignty while the majority of Israeli settlements in the West Bank will remain. The proposal does not grant Palestinian refugees and their descendants living in other countries the right of return to Israel.

According to the paper, Saudi Arabia gave Abbas two months to respond to the offer.

Abu Dis is a Palestinian town near occupied East Jerusalem. According to the Oslo Accords it is classified as Area B which is administered by both Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

US President Donald Trump is expected to recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and set in motion the relocation of the US Embassy to the international city today, a decision that upends decades of US policy and risks fuelling violence in the Middle East.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...-of-palestine/

- - - Updated - - -

Salaam

Another update

Saudi: Palestinian Abbas must endorse US’ plan or leave

Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Mohamed Bin Salman has told Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas that he has to back Donald Trump’s Israeli-Palestinian peace deal or resign.

According to Israeli sources Abbas was offered an ultimatum after he was summoned to Riyadh last week for a meeting with Bin Salman days after Us Presidential advisor Jared Kushner made an unannounced visit to the Saudi capital to meet the young crown prince. The two are reported to have thrashed out a plan in which Abbas seems to have had no say.

Riyadh had offered to normalise relations with Israel in 2002 on the condition that it agreed to the two-state formula, which more and more Israeli’s, including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, have rejected.

It’s still not clear what peace deal has been offered to Abbas, but Palestinians will be concerned by Bin Salman’s readiness to rally behind the US President who is described by close associates as the most pro-Israeli president in years. Trump is said to be drafting a deal put together by his son-in-law, Kushner, who is a strong advocate of Israel and his support for the country, say critics, is odd even by American standards. Kushner has given money to Israeli settlements and his family are close friends of Benjamin Netanyahu.

The Israeli sources also mentioned that Abbas was instructed to stop any further rapprochement with Hamas; an ultimatum that could jeopardise the reconciliation process between the two main Palestinian rivals. If Israeli sources are to be believed than the ultimatum given by Bin Salman seems to be identical to the one made by Netanyahu who is also strongly opposed to the Palestinian unity government.

Though Abbas has rejected the claims made by the Israeli Channel 10, details of the meeting seems to be in line with the Saudi, UAE, Israeli and US vision for the region agreed prior to Trump’s inauguration.

It was widely reported that the US gave its backing for the unpredictable young prince while endorsing a regional plan that included unreserved support for Gulf monarchies; revision of the Iran nuclear deal; and a new Israel-Palestine peace plan.

The Saudis appear to be fully behind this deal whose blueprint has been drawn up by senior members of Trump’s exceptionally pro-Israeli administration.

Since his election, Trump has gone on to describe Saudi Arabia as a “magnificent country” while taking the unprecedented step of visiting the Gulf state in his first official visit, having condemned the rulers during his election campaign. Trump also struck a multibillion dollar deal with the Saudi royals in May.

Trump’s new fondness for the Saudi’s saw him backing the Saudi-UAE media onslaught on Qatar and, last month, he announced he was decertifying the Iran nuclear accord. Last week, when Saudi Arabia arrested scores of princes and businessmen in an “anti-corruption” purge, the president also tweeted his support.

Palestinians no doubt had hoped that a Saudi crown Prince would be a trusted ally who could at the least present their cause with sympathy. They will be concerned over Bin Salman’s ultimatum, which appears to have been coordinated by people that support Netanyahu’s vision for the region which is nothing more than a “state-minus” for the Palestinians.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20171114-saudi-palestinian-abbas-must-endorse-us-plan-or-leave-resign/

[Singularity]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42265337
Trump Jerusalem move sparks Israeli-Palestinian clashes
23 minutes ago

The Israeli army fired tear gas, rubber bullets and live rounds as Palestinian protesters burned tyres and threw stones
At least 31 Palestinians have been wounded in clashes in the Gaza Strip and across the occupied West Bank, during protests against US President Donald Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital.
One person is in a critical condition.
Mr Trump's announcement - met with worldwide dismay - reversed decades of US policy on the sensitive issue.
Israel deployed hundreds of extra troops in the West Bank as Palestinians went on strike and took to the streets.
Protesters set tyres alight and threw stones, and Israeli troops fired tear gas, rubber bullets and live bullets.
One rocket fired from the Gaza Strip exploded inside southern Israel while others fell short, Israel's army said.
In response, an Israeli tank and an aircraft targeted "two terror posts" in Gaza, the army said without giving further details.
Palestinian man and Israeli soldier outside Damascus Gate in Jerusalem on 7 December 2017Image copyrightAFP

This Palestinian man and Israeli soldier were photographed outside Damascus Gate in Jerusalem
Many of Washington's closest allies have said they disagree with the move, and both the UN Security Council and the Arab League will meet in the coming days to decide their response.
There are fears the announcement could lead to a renewed outbreak of violence. The Palestinian Islamist group Hamas has already called for a new intifada, or uprising.
Why did Trump reverse US policy?
Mr Trump announced the move on Wednesday. The US president said: "I've judged this course of action to be in the best interests of the United States of America and the pursuit of peace between Israel and the Palestinians."
He said he was directing the US state department to begin preparations to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.




Analysis: Breaking down what Mr Trump said and what it means for peace
Despite warnings of regional unrest over any such move, the decision fulfils a campaign promise and appeals to Mr Trump's right-wing base.
Recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital was "nothing more or less than a recognition of reality", he added. "It is also the right thing to do."
Trump's speech in full
Media reacts to 'slap of the century'
Five key takeaways from speech
How are capital cities chosen?
Mr Trump said the US would support a two-state solution - shorthand for a final settlement that would see the creation of an independent Palestinian state within pre-1967 ceasefire lines in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem, living peacefully alongside Israel - "if agreed to by both sides".
The president also refrained from using Israel's description of Jerusalem as its "eternal and undivided capital". The Palestinians want East Jerusalem to be the capital of any future Palestinian state.
What has been the reaction?
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel was profoundly grateful to Mr Trump, who had "bound himself forever with the history of the capital".
He also said Israel was "in touch with other countries to follow suit". He did not name any of these countries, although the Philippines and the Czech Republic have been mentioned in Israeli media.
The White House said it was not aware of any countries planning to follow Mr Trump's lead.
The mood has been very different on the Palestinian side.
The leader of Hamas, which dominates the Gaza Strip, has called for a "day of rage" on Friday and said it should "be the first day of the intifada against the occupier".
Hamas members would be "fully ready" to "confront this strategic danger", Ismail Haniya said in a speech in Gaza.




Hamas leader Ismail Haniya said the announcement was a "declaration of war"
Meanwhile, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's rival Fatah movement is seeking to protest through diplomatic means, by filing a complaint to the UN Security Council and pushing for a strong stance by the Arab League.
"We are going to declare the United States disqualified as co-sponsor of any peace process or political process," spokesman Dr Nasser Al-Kidwa said. "In our mind, it has lost its ability to do or perform any efforts in this regard."
Which countries condemned Trump's move?
There has also been widespread condemnation across the Arab and wider Muslim world, with Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan warning Mr Trump that he was "throwing the region into a ring of fire".
The leaders of the UK, France and Germany have all said they disagree with the US announcement.
Why is the announcement significant?
Jerusalem is of huge importance to both Israel and the Palestinians. It contains sites sacred to the three major monotheistic faiths - Judaism, Islam and Christianity.
Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem has never been recognised internationally, and all countries maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv.
What are the alternatives to a two-state solution?
Why settlement issue is so difficult
East Jerusalem, which includes the Old City, was annexed by Israel after the Six Day War of 1967, but before now it has not been internationally recognised as part of Israel.
According to the 1993 Israel-Palestinian peace accords, the final status of Jerusalem is meant to be discussed in the latter stages of peace talks.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

'Decades of chaos': Arab leaders condemn US decision on Jerusalem

Donald Trump’s unilateral move to back Israel’s claim to holy city has reunited competing factions across the Middle East to a common cause


The Trump administration’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital has drawn widespread condemnation across the Arab world, with political leaders, commentators and locals labelling the move as provocative and a threat to global security.

The decision has been cast as the final nail in the coffin of a two-state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict – an approach broadly recognised by Arab states – and the end of meaningful US diplomacy between both sides after almost 70 years.

It has also allowed competing factions across the Middle East to refocus on a common cause that had drifted from the spotlight over the past five years, eclipsed by regional power plays, war and insurrection.

Leaders in Turkey and Lebanon warned of dangerous instability in the wake of the announcement, which overtly sides Washington with Israel at a time when the US had been attempting to table a new peace initiative between Jerusalem and Ramallah.

The future of Jerusalem had been central to all previous peace pushes and commentators and residents were united in their belief that negotiations could not begin if the Palestinians’ claim to the holy city was no longer on the table.

Jordan’s King Abdullah said: “There is no alternative to a two-state solution, and Jerusalem is key to any peace agreement. It is imperative to work fast to reach a final status solution and a peace agreement. Ignoring Palestinian Muslim and Christian rights in the holy city could fuel terrorism.”

In Beirut, Hassan Nasrallah, the Hezbollah leader, called for demonstrations on Monday to protest against the decision. “Trump had support from the Arabs or else he wouldn’t have been able to do this,” said Nasrallah. “The Arab government will scream for a few days then go on with the occupation. America has shown that it doesn’t take into account the opinion of its allies.”

But US ally Saudi Arabia was also quick to denounce the move. Riyadh had sponsored a regional peace initiative that promised full Arab League recognition of Israel in return for a retreat to borders that were in place before the 1967 war.

That plan had been the centrepiece of dormant peace efforts. However, it had barely been raised in recent years as energies had been diverted to other regional crises, and support in Riyadh and the Gulf states for the Palestinian leadership had ebbed.

Ali Nassereddine, a chef from the Shia suburb of Dahiyeh in south Beirut, claimed Trump’s announcement had likely been coordinated with the Saudis and other allies, including the UAE. Echoing sentiments also widely expressed in Syria and Turkey, he said: “The decision was not only based on Israelis and Americans, the Arabs had a hand in it. The question should be directed to the Palestinians and [Palestinian leader] Mahmoud Abbas and all the resistance: do you now realise that negotiations will not get you anywhere?”

In Iraq, powerful militia and political leaders vehemently condemned the move. Muqtadr al-Sadr, a Shia leader and chief protagonist in the country’s civil war, said: “I am ready to be the first soldier, not even leader, if all factions involved decided to confront Israel. No peace with the evil, arrogant and colonial governments. I ask of the Palestinians not to accept this decision in any way, and to revitalise the revolution.”

Other militia groups in Iraq also issued an effective call to arms, as did al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula. There was no immediate response from other regional terror groups, such as Islamic State.

Khalid al-Zubidi, a commentator for the Jordanian newspaper Ad Dustour, said: “Despite the turmoil the Arab world has faced the last years with governments turning on each other or on themselves, there are still some situations that we cannot negotiate. Jerusalem is one of them for Arabs.”

Writing in the Saudi-aligned Asharq al-Awsat, Samir Atallah said: “Previous American presidents never touched on the subject of Jerusalem because they knew it goes beyond the Israeli Palestinian conflict. It involves Muslims worldwide. Unfortunately Trump doesn’t have a historical or political background. If his intention is to solve the Palestinian conflict he chose the wrong door. Jerusalem is not a political symbol but will forever be a religious one.”

Khalid Zuberi, a banker in Cairo, said: “This shows [Trump] has bad faith towards us. He is a fool and he did this to be provocative. We all know he wants to please those who elected him, like the US Christian Zionists. But he must understand from his friends in the region that this will cause chaos. It will be difficult to be an American businessman or tourist here now. More than that though, the region is condemned to decades of chaos because of this.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/07/arab-leaders-condemn-us-decision-on-jerusalem-israel

[Singularity]

http://www.newsweek.com/trumps-jerus...s/yahoous/news


TRUMP’S JERUSALEM DECISION MAY LEAD TO PERMANENT PEACE IN ISRAEL
BY DANNY DANON ON 12/8/17 AT 6:15 AM
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OPINION
The American president, Donald Trump, has made a bold decision.


By announcing that the United States will recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, he has not only proven himself as a reliable ally whose word can be counted on, but also a courageous leader who is not afraid to stand for what is right.


This decision is right for Israel, it is right for the United States, and it has a good chance of positively influencing the possibility for peace in our region.


"Jerusalem is an inseparable part of Israel and her eternal capital. No United Nations vote can alter that historic fact."


This quote was not said by one of our leaders in response to the shameful Security Council resolution 2334 last December. It was part of a statement by Israel's first prime minister, David Ben Gurion, on December 5, 1949 only days after the UN voted for a resolution calling for the internationalization of Jerusalem.


Ben Gurion's response was to move forward with a planned announcement about the moving of our Knesset (parliament) and other national institutions to Jerusalem.


The announcement by the Israeli government was met with condemnations from around the world. The US even went as far as to refuse to hold any diplomatic meetings in Jerusalem and they continued to send official cables to an office of our Foreign Ministry in Tel Aviv.


GettyImages-888189248
Palestinian Muslims pray in front of the Dome of the Rock mosque at the al-Aqsa mosque compound in Jerusalem's Old City, December 8, 2017. Israel deployed hundreds of additional police officers after Palestinian calls for protests after the main weekly Muslim prayers against Donald Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital.
AHMAD GHARABLI/AFP/GETTY


Nevertheless, Ben Gurion's brave decision was the right one for Israel. It made clear the idea of turning our historic capital into an international zone administered by others was a non-starter for Israel.


The decision also had long-term positive effects such as galvanizing Jews around the world with an allegiance to the holy city which had served as our capital since the days of King David.


Prime Minister Ben Gurion also put the countries of the region on notice that Israel would not shy away from making the right decisions – even in the face of international pressure.


Similarly, President Trump's decision carries immense significance for Israel and our region.


When Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu welcomed President Trump to Israel last May, he did so in what he called “Jerusalem, the eternal capital of the Jewish people, the united capital of the Jewish state.” By publicly affirming this vital understanding of our national being, President Trump has laid the groundwork for other countries to soon follow suit.


While some may doubt that other states will want to make such a move for fear of retribution from Arab countries, it is important to recall that many countries around the world take their cues from the US when it comes to certain aspects of their foreign policy.


This decision is also beneficial for the US interests. Israel is America's most stable and loyal ally in the Middle East. We stand by the US at the UN, and in every other forum, on almost every question of foreign policy.


Public opinion of the US by Israelis is consistently one of the highest in the world. More importantly, Israel is an island of stability in the one of the world's most tumultuous regions.


America knows that our democracy is strong, and our commitment to safety and security can be counted on and this in turn serves US interests in the Middle East.


Critics of US foreign policy have made the claim that over the past few years American allies have often been taken for granted while adversaries were rewarded. The nuclear agreement with Iran and past decisions to turn a blind eye to Assad's brutal regime in Syria are just two examples of America's opponents who have benefited from this policy.


Recognizing Jerusalem as our capital serves notice that the US respects its allies and supports them.


Finally, and probably most importantly, this decision may set in motion events that will make peace between Israelis and Palestinians more likely.


Israel exists in a tough neighborhood where strength is respected and perceived weakness can lead to disaster. Our two peace treaties were reached after Egypt and Jordan understood that Israel is here to stay and no amount of war or military might can defeat us.


Similarly, the Palestinians began considering diplomatic negotiations – in addition to their ongoing terror campaigns – only in the aftermath of the Gulf War when they lost the hope of forcing a settlement on Israel through the prism of Cold War politics.


The recognition of Jerusalem as our capital can serve as a healthy reality check for the Palestinians. As more and more countries begin to recognize our capital as fully under Israeli sovereignty, the reality will set in that neither terrorism nor Security Council resolutions will succeed in forcing our hand on a compromise in Jerusalem.


This understanding will remove the issue of Jerusalem from the other thorny final status disputes that have long vexed negotiations between us and the Palestinians. Freed from at least one part of their unrealistic expectations, this may encourage the Palestinians will finally turn to real direct negotiations.


There are times when leaders have to make the hard choice not only because there may be great geopolitical benefits from such a move, but because it is simply the right thing to do. This is what guided Prime Minister Ben Gurion when he moved the Knesset to Jerusalem almost seven decades ago.


President Trump has made a similar courageous decision today.


Danny Danon is Israel’s Ambassador to the United Nations.

[mmtiak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gS_xQrT424

[سيف الله]

Salaam

More comment.


The axis of Arab autocrats who are standing behind Donald Trump

#Occupation

Whatever domestic constituency he is appealing to, Trump could not, and would not, have made his announcement without regional backers

So Donald Trump revealed his hand on Jerusalem. In so doing, he tossed aside any lingering pretence of the US being able to broker a deal between Israel and Palestine. There can be no “neutrality” now. Without Jerusalem as its capital, no Palestinian state can exist. Without that it is only a matter of time before another uprising starts.

Only a symbol as powerful as Jerusalem can unite Palestinians as viscerally opposed to each other as Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah and Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas. Only Jerusalem has the power to unite the inmates of all the prisons and places of exile Palestinians find themselves in – Israel’s physical prisons and its metaphorical ones, the Palestinians in 1948, Gaza, West Bank, the refugee camps and the diaspora. Only Jerusalem speaks to billions of Muslims around the world.

As Trump will soon learn, symbols are powerful. They have a habit of creating a reality all of their own.

Trump, however, does not act alone. Whatever domestic constituency he thinks he is appealing to, and the evangelical Christians appear high on the list, Trump could not and would not have made his announcement unless he had regional backers.

The support of Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud and religious nationalists from Jewish Home are a given, but they are wearily familiar. The exotic and temptingly alien support comes from a new generation of Gulf Arab superbrats – young, irreverent, dune-bashing, selfie-taking, in your face, and appearing in a coup near you.

Under Trump they have formed an axis of Arab autocrats, whose geopolitical ambition is as large as their wallets. They really do think they have the power to impose their will not just on the shards of a Palestinian state, but on the region as a whole.

Under construction, at least in their minds, is a network of modern police states, each wearing a lip gloss of Western liberalism. All see Likud as their natural partners, and Jared Kushner as their discreet interlocutor.

Thought, reflection, cooperation, consultation, consensus do not appear in their lexicon. Democracy is to be postponed, free speech is there to be managed. And Arabs? They are there to be bought.

This was why Mohammed bin Salman, crown prince and the kingdom’s de facto ruler, thought he could browbeat Mahmoud Abbas, the ailing Palestinian president, into acquiescence. He told Abbas either to accept the terms – no Jerusalem, no right of return – or make way for someone who will, according to multiple sources quoted by the New York Times.

Several of the officials said bin Salman had offered to sweeten the deal with direct payment to Abbas, which he refused.

Normalising relations with Israel

Bin Salman’s threats have been orchestrated by a chorus of licensed Saudi writers and journalists all distancing themselves from the Palestinian cause and calling for normalisation of relations with Israel.

Chief among these is the Saudi novelist and writer Turki al-Hamad. Why, he tweeted, should he bother supporting Palestine, if the Palestinians themselves had sold out? Palestine should no longer be regarded as the prime Arab cause.

He wrote: “It was reported that I tweeted that Jerusalem is not the issue. This is not true. What I said was that Palestine is no longer the Arabs’ first cause after its people sold it out.

“I have my own country’s cause of development, freedom and emancipation from the past. As for Palestine, the house (Palestine) has a Lord (God) who would protect it if abandoned by its inhabitants (Palestinians).”

He added: “Since 1948 we have been suffering in the name of Palestine. Coups were orchestrated in the name of Palestine… development was suspended in the name of Palestine… liberties were repressed in the name of Palestine… eventually, even if Palestine were to return it would not be more than just a traditional Arab country… so let’s stop the fraud.

“In South Africa, the young struggled before the old… has the Palestinian done so, despite all the support? No… I shall not support a cause whose people were the first to abandon it.”

There are many other Saudi voices saying the same thing.

Hamzah Muhammad al-Salim, the writer and economic analyst, tweeted: “Once peace is concluded with Israel, it will become Saudi Arabia’s first tourist destination.”

Sa’ud al-Fawzan wrote: “I am not a defender of the Jews, but name a single Jew who killed one Saudi and I’ll give you the names of one thousand Saudis who killed their own countrymen with explosive belts.”

The former director of al-Arabiyah TV channel, Abd al-Rahman al-Rashid, wrote: “It is about time to reconsider the concept of dealing with Palestine and Israel.”

Muhammad al-Sheikh said: “The issue of Palestine is not ours… if an Islamist wearing make-up came to you calling for jihad, spit into his face.”

In a country where tweeting the wrong tweet can get you a three-year spell in prison, these are not spontaneous expressions. Rather they set the mood music for the announcement Trump made.

Division of the region

This then is the axis behind Trump – the crown princes and de facto rulers of Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Egypt and Bahrain. Mohammed bin Salman, Mohammed bin Zayed, Abdel Fatah el Sisi are all personally dependent on Trump.

Neither the blockade of Qatar, nor the attempt to force Saad Hariri to resign as prime minister of Lebanon, nor the break-up of the Gulf Cooperation Council and the formation of a military and economic alliance between Saudi and the Emiratis could have happened without Trump’s green light.

Trump has enabled bin Salman to smash the pillars of the Saudi state, rob his cousins of their wealth, and dress it all up in the name of modernisation and reform.

But they, too, have allowed Trump to impose his Muslim ban and retweet the poison of British fascists about Muslims.

The chaos created by this group has opened up a clear distance with another group of US allies, who are feeling the effects of these policies on themselves. King Abdullah of Jordan, and Mahmoud Abbas both tried to warn Washington of the dangers of what Trump was about to announce on Jerusalem. They see themselves as cornered and have lost the space to manoeuvre.

Jordan is joined by Turkey, whose President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has cross-party support for suspending relations with Israel. Turkey is currently the leader of the 57 member-nation strong Organisation of Islamic Cooperation.

Nationalists too are joining the hue and cry. The leader of Turkey’s opposition Nationalist Movement Party, Devlet Bahceli, warned the US was making an “historic mistake” with its decision to recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. Bahceli said: “The Jerusalem plot is a dagger which has been drawn out to strike all things we consider holy.”

The third group is Iran, Iraq, Syria and Hezbollah, who were presented yet another gift on a silver platter. Trump has now given Iran a huge opportunity to repair the damage done by the civil war in Syria with Sunni groups and nations, to say once more: ” We are with you over Jerusalem.” It’s an invitation Tehran will eagerly accept.

The fourth group is one Trump, Netanyahu, bin Salman, bin Zayed can never reach. They are the Palestinians themselves. Historically they are at their most powerful when they are at their most isolated. This was the power shown at the start of the first and second intifadas. It was what came to the fore when they forced Israel to take away the security barriers at the entrance to the old city.

No Palestinian, be he or she nationalist, secular, Islamist, Christian can accept losing Jerusalem as their capital, and we will see exactly what this means in the days and weeks to come. There are 300,000 Jerusalemites who are residents, but not citizens of, the freshly declared Israeli capital and Trump has just thrown a grenade in their midst.

Friday will be the 30th anniversary of the first intifada. Just watch the Palestinian reaction to the walls of the Old City, the only bit of “real estate” they had left, lighting up in the colours of Israeli and US flags.

http://normanfinkelstein.com/2017/12/07/on-jerusalem-quite-good-i-hope-hes-right-in-the-last-paragraphs/

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Israel is a terror state and Arab leaders must act: Erdoğan

President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has described Israel as a “terror state,” while urging leaders of Arab countries to act following U.S. President Donald Trump’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

“Israel is a state of occupation and a terror state,” Erdoğan said in a speech in the Central Anatolian province of Sivas on Dec. 10, vowing that Turkey “will not leave Jerusalem to the consciousness of a child-killer state.”

“Jerusalem is the light of our eyes. We won’t leave it to the conscience of a state that only values occupation and looting. We will continue our struggle decisively within the law and democracy,” he added.

On Dec. 6, Trump announced the U.S.’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s “undivided” capital, saying the U.S. Embassy would relocate from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, in a dramatic shift in Washington’s Jerusalem policy.

While demonstrations in the occupied Palestinian territories, Turkey and other Muslim-majority countries have been ongoing since the recognition, Erdoğan has been one of the most vocal leaders to slam Washington’s move.

“Palestine is oppressed and a victim. Israel is absolutely a state of occupation. Israel has never recognized any decision adopted concerning it, especially United Nations decisions, and it will never do so,” Erdoğan said, also presenting a series of maps showing how Israel has expanded its borders by occupying Palestinian territories since 1947.

“Look at this scene, do you see this treachery?” he said, pointing to Israeli expansion.

Erdoğan also showed a picture of a 14-year-old blindfolded Palestinian boy surrounded by Israeli soldiers.

“Look at how these terrorists are dragging a 14-year-old blindfolded child,” he said, describing Trump’s statement on Jerusalem as “null and void” for Turkey.

“We will continue to stand with the oppressed. We will use every opportunity we have for our first qibla, Jerusalem. We’ve been carrying out intense phone diplomacy since the dire decision of the U.S. I’ve held phone calls with the heads of many governments and states, including the Pope. We’ve told them that this issue is not one that only concerns Muslims; it is also the seizure of the rights of Christians. But I must say clearly that this step of the U.S. is completely an Evangelist understanding,” he added.

An extraordinary meeting of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is scheduled to be held in Istanbul on Dec. 13, hosting the leaders of Muslim-majority countries.

“With the roadmap that we will determine [at the OIC meeting], we will show that the realization of this decision [moving of the embassy] will not be easy at all,” he added.

Earlier on, Erdoğan urged Arab leaders and Muslim countries to present a “united stance” on the issue.

“The Arab League will be present at the meeting on Dec. 13. Its term president, Jordanian King Abdullah II, thinks the same as us. Islamic countries must present a united stance on this issue,” he said.

“The dividedness and internal problems of the Islamic world have made it easier for the U.S. to adopt such a decision. What’s happening in Iraq and Syria are also out in the open. Libya, Egypt and Yemen are also experiencing serious problems. This Jerusalem step shows how some have been taking advantage of this situation. We need to be vigilant as Muslims,” Erdoğan added.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/erdogan-slams-israel-as-a-terrorist-state-123874

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Another update

Afghan Govt Asked To Suspend Relations With US

Wolesi Jirga speaker says Trump’s Jerusalem decision highlights the crisis at international level and it is an act of aggression.



In a statement issued on Saturday, members of Afghan parliament asked the Kabul government to suspend all its relations with the US following President Donald Trump’s decision on Jerusalem.

The lawmakers said Trump’s decision on Jerusalem is a move against peace.

“In reaction to this anti-Islamic and anti-humanity decree, the diplomatic and trade ties should be suspended until the decision is canceled,” MP Abdul Qayyum Sajjadi said.

“The Islamic nations’ presidents and officials are slaves and you (MPs) should take a stance,” MP Abdul Sattar Khawasi said.

The MPs said recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is against democratic values and that asked the government to stop all its ties with the US.

“This decision highlights the crisis at international level and it is an act of aggression,” said Abdul Rauf Ibrahimi, speaker of the Wolesi Jirga, the Lower House of Parliament.

“I ask (Trump) to withdraw his signature and to never underestimate Muslims,” MP Lailuma Hakimi said.

According to the MPs, the inability to make decisions and the lack of solidarity and cooperation between the Muslim nations, are the reasons that Trump was encouraged to make such decision.

“If you think the powerful (countries) will be stopped by shouting, it will never happen,” MP Abdul Rauf Anami said.

“America is a hypocrite, America is a bully, American is the big devil,” MP Mohammad Sarwar Osmani Farahi said.

Trump on Thursday night announced that he officially recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. His decision was denounced by many of countries.

http://www.tolonews.com/afghanistan/afghan-govt-asked%C2%A0-suspend-relations-us

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Another update

OIC declares East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital

The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) has declared East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, rejected the US stance as "dangerous" and called on the international community to follow in its footsteps.

At a summit held in Turkey a week after US President Donald Trump declared Jerusalem as Israel's capital, the group of Muslim leaders on Wednesday called on all countries to "recognise the State of Palestine and East Jerusalem as its occupied capital".

In a statement, the OIC added that the 57-member group remains committed to a "just and comprehensive peace based on the two-state solution".

It also called on the UN to "end the Israeli occupation" of Palestine and declared Trump's administration liable for "all the consequences of not retracting from this illegal decision".

"[We] consider that this dangerous declaration, which aims to change the legal status of the [city], is null and void and lacks any legitimacy," the group said.

Marwan Bishara, Al Jazeera's senior political analyst, said the summit in Istanbul highlighted that Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims continue to be committed to peace.

"Now, Muslim countries in addition to a whole lot of others that are allied with the Palestinian cause will recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine," he said.

"And those Islamic countries are ready to sever relations to punish any one country that follows in the footsteps of the United States in recognising Jerusalem as the capital of Israel."

Situation of instability

Speaking earlier on Wednesday, Yousef al-Othaimeen, the OIC's secretary general, rejected the US decision and urged Muslim leaders to work together to present a united response to the move.

"The OIC rejects and condemns the American decision," he said. "This is a violation of international law ... and this is a provocation of the feelings of Muslims within the world.

"It will create a situation of instability in the region and in the world."

Speaking before al-Othaimeen, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said the US had "disqualified" itself from future Israel-Palestine peace talks after proving its "bias in favour of Israel".

Founded in 1969, the OIC bills itself as "the collective voice of the Muslim world".

Trump announced on December 6 that the US formally recognises Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and will begin the process of moving its embassy to the city, breaking with decades of US policy.

The decision violated international law, according to Abbas.

"We shall not accept any role for the United States in the peace process, they have proven their full bias in favour of Israel," he said.

"Jerusalem is and always will be the capital of Palestine."

Palestinians envisage East Jerusalem as the capital of a future state. Israel, meanwhile, says Jerusalem, which is under Israeli occupation, cannot be divided.

The comments by Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority (PA) were seen as his strongest yet on the issue.

Al Jazeera's Hoda Abdel-Hamid, reporting from Ramallah, said Palestinians were "very frustrated" after seeing "many agreements and many condemnations" but "nothing really changing for them on the ground".

"When you ask them who they hold responsible for that, they say certainly the PA, their own leadership," she said, citing Palestinians' disappointment about the disunity among their different political factions.

Abdel-Hamid also said that "there is a belief among many Palestinians that Trump's Jerusalem move couldn't have happened without the green light of Saudi Arabia".

The Istanbul summit was attended by just over 20 heads of state. Saudi Arabia, the host of the OIC headquarters, sent only a senior foreign ministry official. Others, including Egypt, deployed their foreign ministers.

The extraordinary OIC summit was called for by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan following Trump's announcement.

Speaking at the meeting, Erdogan accused Israel of being a "state of terror" and said the US' recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel had been rebuked by the international community.

"It is null and void … except Israel, no country in the world has supported [this decision]," he said.

"Anyone who walks a few minutes in the streets of Jerusalem will recognise this city is under occupation."

Al Jazeera's Mohammed Adow, reporting from Istanbul, said Erdogan was seeking to "unite the Muslim world" and "come up with a concerted response" to the US' move.

"He faces a daunting task," our correspondent said. "In the hall that he was addressing, there were countries who are not willing to go beyond rhetoric opposition at the expense of sacrificing their relationship with the United States," he said.

Trump's move has provoked a wave of protests from Asia, through the Middle East, to North Africa, with tens of thousands of people taking to the streets in recent days to denounce his decision.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/oic-leaders-reject-trump-decision-jerusalem-171213095417995.html

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Another update

Is Jordan paying the price for Jerusalem criticism?

Arab states have put pressure on Jordan to accept the United States' recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and a heavily stripped-down version of the Palestinian state, Jordanian politicians and analysts say.

Member of Parliament Wafa Bani Mustafa told Al Jazeera the two main antagonists are the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia, where Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has taken a dominant role.

Jordan sided with the Palestinians and rejected US President Donald Trump's decision last week to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and recognise the Holy City as the capital of Israel.

"Bin Salman and the United Arab Emirates are trying to strangle Jordan's economy until it agrees to their terms, submit to their leadership in the region, and agree to Trump's so-called 'ultimate deal'," Bani Mustafa said, referring to the US president's as yet unexplained new plan to bring about peace between the Israelis and Palestinians.

US, Saudi, Israel axis

King Abdullah II said Trump's Jerusalem announcement would have "dangerous repercussions on the stability and security of the region", according to a statement released by the royal palace.

Thousands of protesters in Amman and other Jordanian cities denounced the US and Israel as well as Saudi Arabia - accusing the Gulf kingdom of collusion in the Jerusalem decision.

An official Saudi statement described Trump's move as "unjustified and irresponsible", and "a big step back in efforts to advance the peace process".

However, according to a report by Reuters news agency, Crown Prince Salman is said to be acting on behalf senior White House advisor Jared Kushner and has presented Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas with the American plan for Middle East peace.

The US scheme reportedly involves creating a Palestinian state consisting of the Gaza Strip and disjointed parts of the occupied West Bank - without East Jerusalem as its capital, and without resolving the right of return of Palestinian refugees displaced when Israel was founded in 1948.

Al Jazeera spoke to three officials close to the Palestinian Authority's leadership who confirmed that Crown Prince bin Salman pressured Abbas to accept a watered-down version of Palestinian statehood, without its chosen capital.

Bani Mustafa said the United States and its regional partners excluded Jordan from any arrangements regarding a Palestinian state. She also pointed out Jordan was not invited by Egypt to participate in Palestinian reconciliation talks between Fatah and Hamas last October.

Economic diplomacy

While Jordan is the only Arab nation directly impacted by a peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians, neither the US or Arab countries invited Jordan to the negotiating table, Bani Mustafa noted.

Jordan is home to several million Palestinian refugees, and its social, economic, and political fabric is interwoven directly with Palestinians in the West Bank.

King Abdullah is also the custodian of Jerusalem's holy places, and the royal court pays the salaries of Palestinian employees there.

Bani Mustafa also said Jordan's closest Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) allies - Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Kuwait - did not renew a five-year financial assistance programme with Amman worth $3.6bn that ended in 2017.

US aid to Jordan amounts to about $1.6bn a year; about $800m in military assistance and $800m in economic relief. Part of the economic assistance arrives as a direct monetary transfer, while the rest comes in the form of USAID projects in the country. Jordan's 2018 budget includes a $400m direct grant from the United States.

King Abdullah met King Salman in Saudi Arabia on Tuesday and discussions focused on "the dangerous implications of the United States decision" on Jerusalem, reported Jordan's state news agency Petra.

King Abdullah will be in Istanbul on Wednesday for the emergency meeting called by the 57-member Organization of Islamic Cooperation that aims to produce a "unified Islamic position" over Trump's decision.

He joins other leaders, including Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani, and Lebanon's President Michel Aoun. Saudi Arabia and UAE are not expected to be represented by heads of state.

Jordanian analysts told Al Jazeera the apparent rift in bilateral relations between Jordan and Saudi Arabia is unlikely to be resolved any time soon.

Journalist and political analyst Fahad al-Khitan said Crown Prince bin Salman is departing rapidly from traditional diplomacy in the region.

"The Saudis no longer view the Arab-Israeli conflict or the issue of Jerusalem as a priority for them or even on their agendas," al-Khitan said. "Saudi Arabia's regional posture has since President Trump won the American elections shifted toward more escalating and aggressive approach to Iran."

Khitan also said Prince bin Salman, 32, has placed Saudi-Jordanian relations "on ice".

"Bin Salman no longer views Jordan as a needed partner now that he has warming and direct ties with Israel - according to several statements made by Israeli politicians," he said.

"Bin Salman is behaving as if he is the leader of the entire Arab world. But the problem is that he does not realise that such leadership also requires that he bears the burden of leading the region. But he is not getting it."
Egyptian withdrawal

Al-Khitan highlighted Egypt's diminished solidarity with the Palestinian cause, saying the current leadership is not looking for any role as a regional power broker.

"I was directly told by the Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shoukry here in Amman a few months ago that Egypt is not interested in becoming a leader in the Arab world. Egypt is more concerned now with its own domestic problems," he said.

Bani Mustafa said Jordan must now reach out to countries such as China, Russia, Turkey, and Qatar to balance out the cooling relations with Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Egypt in order to pressure the US to reconsider its unilateral decision-making in the Middle East.

Member of Parliament Khalil Atiyeh agreed.

"Jordan's position on Jerusalem is closer to the position of Turkey and Qatar than with the Saudi-UAE-Egypt axis," Atiyeh said.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/jordan-paying-price-jerusalem-criticism-171212102011205.html

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What a surprise

Israel TV: Saudi Arabia, Egypt gave Trump green light regarding Jerusalem

Israel’s News 10 said Saudi Arabia and Egypt gave US President Donald Trump the go ahead to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to the occupied city.

The channel said the Arab parties’ reactions and condemnations are not genuine and are misleading.

Israeli journalist and head of the Arab desk at the news channel, Zvi Yehezkeli stressed that the announcement could not have been made without coordination between Trump and his regional allies.

“I am not sure about the Arab countries’ reactions to this resolution,” Yehezkeli said, adding that the responses issued so far were not serious.

On Wednesday, the US President Donald Trump announced his decision to formally recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s new capital adding that the American embassy would be moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

World leaders, from Europe to the Middle East to Australia, slammed the decision as a “unilateral and outside the vision of a negotiated peace between Israelis and Palestinians,” warning of “heightened tensions or even violence across the Middle East.”

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20171208-israel-tv-saudi-arabia-egypt-gave-trump-green-light-regarding-jerusalem/

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Another update

Makkah and Madinah imams silent on Jerusalem in Friday sermons

The Saudi imams of the Grand Mosques in Makkah and Madinah did not mention the situation in Jerusalem and Al-Aqsa Mosque during their Friday sermons, Shehab.ps has reported. Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem is regarded as the holiest place in Islam after the two Grand Mosques.

Although he did point out that the Kingdom “reiterated the legal rights of the blessed Palestinian people” and hailed King Salman and other Muslim leaders for seeking the best for Islam and Muslims, well-known Shaikh Maher Mu’eqili did not mention the issue of Jerusalem in his Makkah sermon. Shaikh Abdullah Al-Bu’ejan, who delivered the Friday speech in The Prophet’s Mosque in Madinah, did not mention the issue at all. Instead, he discussed God’s miracles in the change of the seasons throughout the year.

In the wake of Trump’s decision about Jerusalem, the Saudi Royal Court ordered the local media not to give the issue wide coverage, Al-Araby Al-Jadeed reported. The Saudi and Bahraini Embassies in Amman also called on their citizens living in Jordan not to take part in the demonstrations organised to protest against the US move.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20171209-makkah-and-madinah-imams-silent-on-jerusalem-in-friday-sermons/

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Trump is doing what previous presidents have said they would do.

Moazzam Begg‏

@moazzam _Begg

Dec 8
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“#Jerusalem will remain the capital of #Israel and it must remain undivided.” Barak Obama’s speech to AIPAC, 2008. Don’t get fooled into believing US was ever anything but Israel’s biggest advocate.

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Custodian to most sacred Christian site in Jerusalem refuses to meet Mike Pence over Israeli capital decision

Keeper of keys at Church of the Holy Sepulchre will not extend welcome to Vice President when he makes official visit to city

The guardian of the most sacred site in Christianity has refused to meet US Vice President Mike Pence when he visits Jerusalem next week.

Adeeb Joudeh, the custodian of the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, will not welcome Mr Pence if he chooses to make an official trip to the Old City.

Mr Joudeh, a practising Muslim, said his decision was in protest against President Donald Trump’s controversial decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

In a statement released this week, he said: “It has come to our attention that Vice President Pence intends to make an official visit to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and asked me to receive him officially.

“I absolutely refuse to officially welcome the American Vice President Mr. Mike Pence at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and I will not be physically in church during his visit.

“This is an expression of my condemnation of President Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel."

The Church of the Holy Sepulchre contains the two holiest sites in Christianity, the place Jesus Christ was crucified and the empty tomb where he is said to have been buried and resurrected.

Muslim families have been tasked with opening and closing the shrine since at least the 16th Century as part of an agreement by the three Abrahamic faiths aimed at maintaining the fragile balance between religious groups in Jerusalem.

Representatives for Mr Pence denied a visit to the church was ever on the agenda for the Vice President, who was born into a Catholic family and now identifies as an evangelical Christian.

His press secretary, Alyssa Farah, said on Twitter Mr Pence’s office had not extended an offer to visit the holy site.

A senior church official played down the weight of Mr Joudeh’s statement.

He told the Times of Israel: “We didn’t receive any formal or informal request and if there is a request, there is a status quo procedure to respect involving the three communities.

“It is not up to one of the key keepers to decide anything about this kind of issue.”

Mr Trump’s decision last Wednesday to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel has raised tensions in the city and across the Middle East.

The move has been hailed in Israel but widely condemned by Arab countries and the US’s western European allies.

Protests in the West Bank led to clashes between Israeli forces and Palestinian demonstrators, in which at least two demonstrators were killed and hundreds injured.

Lebanese security forces fired tear gas at demonstrators outside the US embassy in Beirut on Sunday, while the Arab League has called on Mr Trump to reverse his decision.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/jerusalem-mike-pence-church-holy-sepulchre-israel-capital-adeeb-joudeh-old-city-muslim-donald-trump-a8109206.html

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Nazareth cuts back Christmas celebrations to protest Trump's Jerusalem move

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Nazareth, the Israeli Arab city where Jesus is thought to have been raised, has canceled some Christmas celebrations in protest at U.S. President Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, an official said.

Trump announced the move last week, reversing decades of U.S. policy and recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, jeopardizing Middle East peace efforts and upsetting the Arab world and Western allies alike.

Nazareth, the largest Arab town in Israel with a Muslim and Christian population of 76,000, is one of the Holy Land’s focal points of Christmas festivities.

“We have decided to cancel the traditional Christmas singing and dancing because we are in a time of dispute, because of what Trump has said about Jerusalem,” city spokesman Salem Sharara said.

Nazareth is traditionally thought to be where Jesus grew up. The imposing Basilica of the Annunciation in central Nazareth is built on a site which many Christian faithful believe was the childhood home of Jesus’ mother, Mary.

Sharara said the town’s market stalls and the traditional Christmas church services would be held as they are every year.

Within an hour of the announcement, the Palestinian towns of Bethlehem, Jesus’s traditional birthplace, and Ramallah in the Israeli-occupied West Bank briefly switched off their Christmas lights in protest.

There was no word from the Bethlehem municipality whether it was also weighing a cutback on its celebrations at a crucial time of year for the town’s tourist trade.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-christmas/nazareth-cuts-back-christmas-celebrations-to-protest-trumps-jerusalem-move-idUSKBN1E82AM

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Malaysia's Mahathir calls Trump a 'villain' for Jerusalem plan

KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) - Muslim-majority Malaysia’s former prime minister Mahathir Mohamad on Friday called U.S. President Donald Trump an “international bully” and a “villain” for his move to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

Trump last week reversed decades of U.S. policy by recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and said the United States would move its embassy to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv in the coming years.

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The status of Jerusalem is one of the thorniest barriers to a lasting Israeli-Palestinian peace. Israel considers Jerusalem its eternal and indivisible capital and wants all embassies based there.

Palestinians want the capital of an independent state of theirs to be in the city’s eastern sector, which Israel captured in the 1967 Middle East war and annexed in a move never recognized internationally.

The anger from Trump’s decision “will lead to what is called terrorism”, the 93-year-old Mahathir told a protest rally in front of the U.S. embassy in Kuala Lumpur.

“Today we have an international bully. Trump, go find someone your own size. This (Jerusalem plan) will only stir the anger of the Muslims,” said Mahathir, the chairman of Malaysia’s opposition coalition.

“We must use all our power to oppose this villain who is the president of the United States,” he said, urging all Muslim countries to cut ties with Israel.

Muhyiddin Yassin, another opposition leader, called on the Malaysian government to not proceed with planned investments in the United States.

Last week, Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak urged Muslims worldwide to oppose any recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

Social media users in Muslim-majority Malaysia vowed to boycott U.S. companies, such as McDonald’s Corp, following Trump’s decision. The chain’s Malaysian franchise said it did not support or engage in any political or religious conflicts.

Deputy Prime Minister Zahid Ahamd Hamidi on Friday said Najib and the leader of the opposition Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party (PAS) would lead a protest rally next Friday in Malaysia’s administrative capital of Putrajaya, media said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-israel-asia/malaysias-mahathir-calls-trump-a-villain-for-jerusalem-plan-idUSKBN1E90T2?il=0

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[Karl]

Jerusalem was the capital of the kingdom of Judah in the 9th century BCE. So how did it become part of Israel? What about Babylon, would that be a better capital? I don't think it matters what Trump recognizes, the guy has no dignitas or power to enforce his will. He is not the ruler of the world. All the Neo Cons which are both Republicans and Democrats are Zionists and recognize Jerusalem as the capital city of Israel. So what? They don't have the official powers to make it so.

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Perceptive

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Another update


Ibrahim Abu Thuraya: Disabled Palestinian activist shot dead by Israeli troops in Jerusalem protest

Outrage after double amputee among of eight Palestinians killed since Donald Trump recognised Jerusalem as Israel's capital

A Palestinian activist who lost his legs in an air strike has been shot dead by Israeli troops as he protested against the US decision to recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. Wheelchair-bound Ibraheem Abu Thuraya, 29, was one of four Palestinians killed during Friday’s violent clashes, according to officials. Witnesses said he was unarmed. The Palestinian Authority’s health ministry said Mr Thuraya was shot just east of Gaza City, with the Israeli army saying it opened fire on the “main instigators” of violent protests at the Gaza border. A 31-year-old, Yasser Sokhar, was killed in the same clash.

The violent protests followed the decision by Donald Trump earlier this month to officially recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. Another 82 Palestinians were injured, five of them seriously, in clashes along Gaza’s border with Israel, the health ministry said. Mr Thuraya had lost his legs and a kidney in an air strike, according to local reports, and was regularly seen with other Palestinian activists at protests.

“He was injured in 2008 by an Israeli helicopter that targeted him after he brought down the Israeli flag and raised the Palestinian flag along the border,” his brother Samir told AFP .

“It did not stop him from demonstrating for Jerusalem. He went alone every day to the border.”

He is understood to have washed cars for a living and told Shehab News in 2016 he hoped one day he could go abroad to get prosthetic legs. The group Irish Friends of Palestine helped raise money for his motorised scooter, according to its website.

In video footage apparently recorded shortly before his death, Mr Thuraya can be seen carrying the Palestinian flag and waving the victory sign at Israeli soldiers.

In another video, he is heard saying: “This land is our land. We are not going to give up. America has to withdraw the declaration it has made.”

Tear gas was reportedly used against the protesters and at some point Mr Thuraya abandoned his wheelchair, crawling through the grass before he was shot. His funeral took place on Saturday, The Guardian reported.

Photos and videos showing Mr Thuraya being pushed in his wheelchair shortly before his death have been widely shared on social media. Nasser Atta, a Jerusalem-based journalist, said on Twitter the death of the Gaza amputee “will be the beginning of the start of a third intifada, they compare him to Mohammed al-Dura killed during the Second Intifada”. Mohammed al-Dura was a 12-year-old boy killed by Israeli forces during rioting on the Gaza Strip in 2000, prompting worldwide condemnation and violent retribution.

According to the Middle East Eye, Mr Thuraya was known for climbing electricity poles and holding up Palestinian flags during protests. He told the Irish Friends of Palestine: “Please never look at my disabled body, look at the great job I am doing. I never get despaired. It’s not the end of the world and life should go on.”

Several thousand Palestinians took part in Friday’s protests at the West Bank, Jerusalem and Gaza, according to Israeli forces and eyewitness accounts.

“During the violent riots IDF (Israel Defence Force) soldiers fired selectively towards main instigators,” the military said in a statement.

It said demonstrators in the West Bank threw firebombs and rocks and rolled flaming tyres at soldiers and border police.

Another Palestinian was shot and killed after he reportedly stabbed an Israeli soldier during clashes at the West Bank border, according to reports which claimed he was believed to have been wearing a suicide belt. He was named by the Palestinian Health Ministry as 29-year-old Mohammed Aqal.

Protests have raged for the past 10 days in the disputed territories since Mr Trump’s announcement – highly controversial because Jerusalem is a holy place to Jews, Christians and Muslims.

Israeli forces seized control of East Jerusalem from Arab forces in the 1967 Middle East War and later annexed it in a move considered illegal under international law. Israel has maintained a blockade of Gaza for a decade, claiming this is necessary to contain the territory's Islamist rulers Hamas, who have called for a new uprising in response to Mr Trump's Jerusalem declaration.

Mr Trump said the announcement merely recognises the reality that Jerusalem already effectively serves as the Israeli capital and is not intended to alter the city's borders.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a8114766.html

[سيف الله]

Salaam

More protests

JI chief expresses solidarity with Palestinians at Karachi million march

KARACHI: Jamaat-e-Islami (JI) Chief Siraj-ul Haq said on Sunday that his party is holding a rally to express solidarity with the people of Palestine, adding that the JI wanted to unite the ‘Ummah’ as a family.

The JI chief was addressing a march held here to protest against the United States’ recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

The 'Al-Quds million march' intended to express solidarity with Palestinians and protest against US President Donald Trump’s recent decision to recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. The march originated from University Road, moving forward to Urdu University and then concluded at Hasan Square.

JI chief Sirajul Haq earlier said the march would be the country’s biggest ever.

Earlier, party vice chief Asadullah Bhutto and JI Karachi ameer Hafiz Naeem-ur-Rehman visited Hasan Square where they reviewed the preparations for the million march.

Hafiz Naeem-ur-Rehman called on people to attend the march in large numbers and said "terrorism by United States was destroying world peace."

Earlier this month, JI had announced to hold countrywide protests over Jerusalem, with Sirajul Haq terming Trump’s decision as “adding fuel to the fire.”

Trump has put global peace in danger, he had said.

A fresh wave of violence has erupted on the Gaza Strip border following US recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. As protests entered the second week, at least four Palestinians were shot dead and 150 others wounded by Israeli troops over the weekend.

Most of the casualties were on the Gaza Strip border, where thousands of Palestinians gathered to protest against Israeli soldiers beyond the fortified fence. Medics said the dead included a wheelchair-bound Palestinian.

In the occupied West Bank, another area where Palestinians are seeking statehood along with adjacent East Jerusalem, medics said two protesters were killed and 10 wounded by Israeli gunfire.

Palestinians -- and the wider Arab and Muslim world -- were incensed at Trump’s December 6 announcement, which reversed decades of US policy reticence on Jerusalem, a city where both Israel and the Palestinians want sovereignty.

Washington’s European allies and Russia have also voiced worries about Trump’s decision.



https://www.geo.tv/latest/172636-ji-...over-jerusalem

More protests

Protesters have once again poured on to the streets of several international cities in a show of solidarity with the Palestinians, condemning a US decision to officially recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

Eleven days after US President Donald Trump's move, mass rallies were held on Sunday in Indonesia, Turkey and Pakistan.

The biggest demonstration took place in Indonesia's capital, Jakarta, where an estimated 80,000 protesters rallied outside the US embassy.

Waving Palestinian flags, the protesters also called on Trump to stop his plans to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

Al Jazeera's Dessi Arianti, reporting from the massive rally in Jakarta, the fourth since Trump's announcement, said that many of the marchers had travelled from out of town to express their solidarity with the Palestinian cause.

"Men, women and children, carrying Palestinian flags and banners, condemned the US move while rallying at the National Monument in Jakarta at sunrise on Sunday," Arianti said.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/1...065716217.html



Head of Satmar Hasidic sect slams US recognition of Jerusalem
Anti-Zionist leader says Trump's decision doesn't alter group's opposition to Zionism, which he says 'has nothing to do with the city'

The head of a Satmar Hasidic faction slammed the US recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

Rabbi Aaron Teitelbaum, the Satmar rebbe in Kiryas Joel, an ultra-Orthodox village in upstate New York, condemned the White House announcement made several days earlier by US President Donald Trump.

“We declare in the name of Haredi Judaism: Jerusalem, the holy city, will not be the capital of the Zionist state, even if the president of the United States says it is,” Teitelbaum said at an event Saturday night at the New York Expo Center in the Bronx, Israel National News reported.

“Just as Haredi Jews did not recognize President Truman’s declaration in 1948 that Israel is the Jewish state, we don’t recognize it today,” he said, using the Hebrew word ultra-Orthodox Jews.

Satmar is anti-Zionist and does not recognize the State of Israel.

Teitelbaum was speaking to thousands of followers at the annual event marking the 21st day of the Jewish month of Kislev, which commemorates the day that the late Rabbi Yoel Teitelbaum, the founder of the Satmar movement in America, escaped from the Nazis during the Holocaust in 1944.

“Jerusalem is a holy city, a city of piety. Zionism is the opposite of fearing God and Torah, and it has nothing to do with the city of Jerusalem,” Teitelbaum also said.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/head-o...-of-jerusalem/

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

Musta'ribeen, Israel's agents who pose as Palestinians

They are dressed like Palestinian protesters, speak with the same accents and expressions, and show the same mannerisms. Their faces covered with checkered keffiyehs or balaclavas, they chant against the Israeli army and sometimes throw stones in the direction of the soldiers, all while drawing in other protesters as they get closer and closer to the army.

Then, quick as a bang, the scene erupts, and this group suddenly turns on the rest of the Palestinian protesters, brandishing guns that were concealed under their shirts, firing in the air, grabbing those nearest to them and wrestling them to the ground.

The army advances and takes into custody the Palestinians that were caught, as the rest of the protesters disperse, screaming out one word as a warning to others: "Musta'ribeen!"
Disguised as Arabs

Musta'ribeen, or mista'arvim in Hebrew, is a word that is derived from the Arabic "musta'rib", or one that is specialised in Arabic language and culture. In Israeli security terms, the word denotes security forces who disguise themselves as Arabs and carry out missions in the heart of Palestinian societies or other Arab countries.

The agents are given rigorous training, and in operations concerning the occupied territories, are taught to think and act like a Palestinian. Their main missions, according to Israeli affairs expert Antoine Shalhat, include gathering intelligence, arresting Palestinians, and - in their eyes - counterterrorist operations.

"The first musta'ribeen unit was established in 1942 before the state of Israel came into being until 1950," Shalhat said. "This unit was part of the Palmach, an elite division of the Haganah militia, which went on to later become the core of the Israeli army."

Not much is known about these agents because they operate in secret, he added. The Israeli army dissolves these units once their work is found out, and forms new ones to take their place.

"The agents must speak Arabic as if it is their mother tongue," Shalhat said. "They undergo courses to master Palestinian dialects and Arabic accents according to which Arab country they operate in, such as Yemen or Tunisia."

These courses take between four to six months and include how to master customs and religious practices, such as fasting and praying. The agents use makeup and wigs to complete their disguise but are chosen according to how similar their physical features are to Arab countenances. In total, the training can take up to 15 months, and consists of operational field work such as driving and sniping, how to move around in crowded Palestinian settings, and arms training.

"One of the most well-known units was the Rimon, which was established in 1978 and remained active until 2005," Shalhat said. "Their work was mostly concentrated in the Gaza Strip. Another unit that operated in Gaza was called Shimshon during the 80s and 90s."

"The Duvdevan 217 elite unit is still operative within the army. It was established during the 1980s by [former Israeli prime minister] Ehud Barak and currently functions in the West Bank and is considered the most active and secretive."

Presence in recent protests

Over the past two weeks, Palestinians have been protesting US President Donald Trump's decision to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Hundreds have been arrested by Israeli forces, and 10 people have been killed so far in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Last week, during one of the protests at Ramallah's northern entrance near the illegal Bet Il settlement, a group of musta'ribeen infiltrated the protest and arrested three young Palestinian men, according to journalist Rasha Harzallah.

"They were only there for 10 minutes," said Harzallah, who was standing the closest to the first Palestinian protester arrested on Wednesday, December 13. "They were dressed exactly like the other Palestinian protesters, and threw a sound grenade at them."

"They were about five in total, and pulled out their guns and began firing in the air," she continued. "The army then suddenly advanced in huge numbers, and they began firing live bullets at people and in the air, even at the journalists."

Harzallah, who works for the official Wafa news agency, said that the agent nearest to her was wearing a dark red shirt and had his face covered with a keffiyeh.

"Before, he was standing on the front line with the other Palestinian protesters throwing rocks at the Israeli army," she said.

"The army then suddenly advanced quickly. Then I noticed the red-shirted man on top of a Palestinian protester, and he was waving his gun towards me and the photographer next to me shouting 'don't get close!'"

'How can they tell who they are?'

Harzallah explained that before the musta'ribeen made their presence known, the protesters were throwing stones at the Israeli army. But the soldiers did not respond, which immediately raised suspicions.

"They did not do anything," she said. "From experience, the protesters know that when the Israeli army stops firing sound grenades, tear gas, rubber bullets … then there's a big probability that the musta'ribeen are present among them. But how can they tell who they are?"

In the 2015 protests commonly referred to by Palestinians as the "Intifada of the knives", Harzallah witnessed another raid by the musta'ribeen, which she described as much worse.

"They fired their weapons at two Palestinians, one in the head and the other in his leg from point-blank range," she said.

"I saw them drag the Palestinian they had shot in the head…I thought he was dead because I saw bits of his flesh on the ground."

The young man, Mohammed Ziyadeh, lived; he remains partially paralysed. In an interview with Al Jazeera shortly after the incident, Ziyadeh relayed from his hospital bed that after being beaten by the musta'ribeen, they fired a bullet at his head and he lost consciousness.

"When I came round, they began interrogating me, but I told them I could not remember anything," he said, his speech slurred. "They took me to the hospital and beat me up again."

Ziyadeh underwent two surgeries and was interrogated and beaten after each one. His lawyer finally managed to set him free, and shortly after he was able to move one of his legs again. With the emergence of the musta'ribeen in protests, Palestinians have learned to become more vigilant. One way of differentiating themselves from the undercover Israeli agents is tucking their shirts into their waistbands, where concealed weapons would be seen.

"They should also take caution when a group drags other protesters closer to the army," Harzallah said, "and make sure that there is a group monitoring other protesters."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/musta-israel-agents-pose-palestinians-171218061118857.html

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

Erdogan says Turkey aims to open embassy in East Jerusalem

ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Turkey intends to open an embassy in East Jerusalem, President Tayyip Erdogan said on Sunday, days after leading calls at a summit of Muslim leaders for the world to recognize it as the capital of Palestine.

It was not clear how he would carry out the move, as Israel controls all of Jerusalem and calls the city its indivisible capital. Palestinians want the capital of a future state they seek to be in East Jerusalem, which Israel took in a 1967 war and later annexed in a move not recognized internationally.

The Muslim nation summit was a response to U.S. President Donald Trump’s Dec. 6 decision to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. His move broke with decades of U.S. policy and international consensus that the city’s status must be left to Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations.

Erdogan said in a speech to members of his AK Party in the southern province of Karaman that Turkey’s consulate general in Jerusalem was already represented by an ambassador.

“God willing, the day is close when officially, with God’s permission, we will open our embassy there,” Erdogan said.

Jerusalem, revered by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, is home to Islam’s third holiest shrine as well as Judaism’s Western Wall - both in the eastern sector - and has been at the heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for decades.

Foreign embassies in Israel, including Turkey‘s, are located in Tel Aviv, reflecting Jerusalem’s unresolved status.

A communique issued after Wednesday’s summit of more than 50 Muslim countries, including U.S. allies, said they considered Trump’s move to be a declaration that Washington was withdrawing from its role “as sponsor of peace” in the Middle East.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-israel-turkey/erdogan-says-turkey-aims-to-open-embassy-in-east-jerusalem-idUSKBN1EB0H7

[سيف الله]

Salaam

More comment, good insight to describe this move as the second Balfour declaration.

Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah said US President Donald Trump's decision to formally recognise the city of al-Quds (Jerusalem) as Israel's capital, threatens to completely wipe out the Palestinian cause and any possibility of a Palestinian state.

Nasrallah also described Trump's announcement as a 'second Balfour Declaration', coming 100 years after the first, when Britain declared its aim to establish "a national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine. The Hezbollah leader also said Trump's controversial decision poses a major danger to Muslim & Christian sanctities in the holy city, particularly the al-Aqsa Mosque, one of Islam's holiest sites. Furthermore, Nasrallah said Trump's announcement shows his complete contempt and disregard for the will of the international community, and is an insult and attack on the feelings of hundreds of millions of Muslims and Christians around the world.



- - - Updated - - -

Salaam

Another update.

US outnumbered 14 to 1 as it vetoes UN vote on status of Jerusalem

Nikki Haley furious over resolution, describing it as an ‘insult’ and saying the US won’t be told where it can put its embassy

A UN security council resolution calling for the withdrawal of Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital has been backed by every council member except the US, which used its veto. The unanimity of the rest of the council was a stark rebuke to the Trump administration over its unilateral move earlier this month, which upended decades of international consensus.

The Egyptian-drafted resolution did not specifically mention the US or Trump but expressed “deep regret at recent decisions concerning the status of Jerusalem”. A spokesman for the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, responded to the veto by saying it was “unacceptable and threatens the stability of the international community because it disrespects it”.

The UK and France had indicated in advance that they would would back the text, which demanded that all countries comply with pre-existing UNSC resolutions on Jerusalem, dating back to 1967, including requirements that the city’s final status be decided in direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. The resolution was denounced in furious language by the US ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, who described it as “an insult” that would not be forgotten. “The United States will not be told by any country where we can put our embassy,” she said.

“It’s scandalous to say we are putting back peace efforts,” she added. “The fact that this veto is being done in defence of American sovereignty and in defence of America’s role in the Middle East peace process is not a source of embarrassment for us; it should be an embarrassment to the remainder of the security council.”

The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, tweeted: “Thank you, Ambassador Haley. On Hanukkah, you spoke like a Maccabi. You lit a candle of truth. You dispel the darkness. One defeated the many. Truth defeated lies. Thank you, President Trump.”

The tabling of the resolution followed a weekend of negotiations aimed at securing the widest consensus possible on the issue. The vote has underlined once again the widespread international opposition to the US move, even among some of its closest allies.

It came ahead of a trip by the US vice-president, Mike Pence, to Jerusalem on Wednesday that will take place amid a deep rupture in US-Palestinian relations. The Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah party has called for a day of demonstrations in the occupied Palestinian territories to coincide with the Pence trip. Palestinian officials had warned that in the event of a US veto on the security council, they would also seek a resolution at the general assembly.

The push for a vote – which came in the knowledge that the US would use its veto – followed Trump’s decision to upend decades of policy by declaring that the US recognises Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and that he plans to move its embassy there. Speaking before the vote, the UK’s ambassador to the UN, Matthew Rycroft, said the text was in line with London’s position on Jerusalem as an issue that must be resolved through negotiations.

In an apparent rejection of the authority of the security council, Israel’s ambassador to the UN, Danny Dann, said ahead of the vote: “Members of the council can vote again and again — for a hundred more times. It won’t change the simple fact that Jerusalem is, has been, and always will be the capital of Israel.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/us-outnumbered-14-to-1-as-it-vetoes-un-vote-on-status-of-jerusalem

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Meanwhile, the crown prince Bin Salman is getting rather cosy with the Zionists. The Zionists are most pleased.

Israel Invites Saudi Crown Prince to Mediate Palestine Peace Talks

Saudi newspapers have reported that Israel has invited Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman to their country to lead peace negotiations between Israel and Palestine as a sign of the rapidly warming relations between the Gulf Kingdom and the Jewish State.

In a first-ever for Jerusalem-Riyadh relations, an Israeli minister gave an interview to a Saudi media outlet when Intelligence Minister Yisrael Katz announced the invitation to independent newspaper Elaph.

"I recommend that Saudi Arabia, as the leader of the Arab world, take the initiative upon itself and come to the Palestinians and offer its sponsorship. In such a situation of Saudi leadership, I'm ready to have negotiations. I'm calling on King Salman to invite Netanyahu for a visit and on the Saudi crown prince to come here for a visit in Israel."

A member of the conservative Likud party and a lieutenant of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Katz stressed the Saudi capability for "leadership" that made them an ideal mediator.

If King Salman, the crown prince's father and the formal ruler of Saudi Arabia, invites Netanyahu to his country, as Katz suggested, it would be the first visit of an Israeli prime minister to the kingdom in Israel's 70-year history.

Saudi Arabia and Israel do not have formal diplomatic relations, and Riyadh has traditionally supported Palestine and tried to sponsor Palestinian unity. However, relations began to warm after the Arab Spring, when Israel and Saudi Arabia discovered a common enemy: Iran.

Katz mentioned the intense rivalry between the Twelver Shiite Iranian government and that of Saudi Arabia, which has close ties to the Wahabbist sect of Sunni Islam and which mutually claim exclusivity over the inheritance of the Prophet's message and leadership of the Muslim community. He claimed that Israel was concerned by Iran asserting power along Israel's northern borders with Syria and Lebanon via proxy militias such as Hezbollah. "We don't need any message. We know very well what Iran is doing and what its intentions are," Katz said.

He added that the Israeli military would bomb Lebanon "back to the stone age" if Iran attempts to build precision rocket platforms in Israel's northern neighbor. "This is a red line for us, whatever the price," Katz said. "The more precise the Hezbollah missiles, the bigger the blow Lebanon will absorb."

Lebanon and Saudi Arabia's relationship has been under scrutiny since November, when Lebanese Prime Minister Saad Hariri abruptly resigned, citing fears that he would be assassinated for his opposition to Iran and Hezbollah. Hariri later withdrew his resignation, sparking speculation that the entire spectacle was engineered by the Saudis to weaken Iran in Beirut.

But Israel's relationship with other Muslim nations has recently taken a blow. Following US President Donald Trump's announcement that he would be authorizing the move of the US Embassy to Israel from Tel Aviv to the de facto but disputed capital of Jerusalem, leaders of Muslim-majority powers have claimed that it is now time for the US to drop any pretenses of neutrality and exit the peace process between Israel and Palestine.

Unsurprisingly, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas slammed the move, saying, "Trump wants to give Jerusalem as a present to Israel, as if he is donating one of the US states, as if he is the only person with the authority to decide. The US has lost its mediator role in the Israel Palestine peace process, and we will never allow in the future that the US takes part in the process."

European leaders have also strongly criticized Trump's announcement, calling it inflammatory and damaging to peace prospects.

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/2...abia-mediator/

- - - Updated - - -

Salaam

Another update

Trump-Salman image in Algeria angers Saudi Arabia

Saudi officials have registered their dissatisfaction with an image used by pro-Palestine demonstrators in Algiers comparing Saudi Arabia's king to the US president, according to news media reports. Supporters of Algeria's Ain Melilla football club staged a pro-Palestine rally in an Algiers stadium on Saturday. The row erupted as Abdullah bin Mohammed bin Ibrahim al-Sheikh, chairman of the Saudi Shura Council, arrived in Algeria on Monday to discuss bilateral ties with Algerian officials.

Some of the Algerian football fans carried a huge banner portraying a composite image of a face, half of which belonged to King Salman bin Abdulaziz while the other half belonged to Donald Trump , Turkey's Anadolu Agency said in a report.

The banner was accompanied by a caption, reading: "Two faces of the same coin."

The image was intended to express dissatisfaction with Trump's decision earlier this month to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital, which has prompted widespread condemnation and protest across the Arab and Muslim world.

The following day, Sami bin Abdullah al-Saleh, Saudi ambassador to Algeria, voiced the Saudi kingdom's "annoyance" with the image, Anadolu Agency said.

"We will look into the authenticity of this image and take the appropriate response," Saleh said on Twitter.

On Sunday, with Algerian and Saudi activists widely sharing the image on social media, Saudi media outlets were describing the incident as an "insult" to King Salman, the report said. The Algerian authorities, for their part, have yet to issue a statement on the issue, the Anadolu Agency report said.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/1...185124462.html

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

Insult to injury for the Palestinians

It is tempting to interpret the announcement this week of a delay until the new year in US vice-president Mike Pence’s visit to the Middle East as the ultimate travel warning. It follows an eruption of regional unrest over Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. During protests last Friday, Israeli occupation forces killed four Palestinians and injured more than 250.

US officials, however, are not worried about Pence’s safety. In fact, predictions of a third Palestinian uprising in response to Trump’s Jerusalem declaration may be premature. After decades of flagrant US bias towards Israel, Trump has confirmed to Palestinians only what they already knew. Some even grudgingly welcomed his candour. They hope he has finally silenced US claims to being an “honest broker” in an interminable “peace process” that has simply bought time for Israel to entrench the occupation.

The Palestinians’ anger towards Israel and the US is a slow-burning fuse. It will detonate at a moment of their choosing, not of Trump’s. Rather, the hesitation in Washington over the vice-president’s visit reflects the messy new diplomatic reality that the White House has unleashed. Pence was due here to smooth the path to Trump’s long-promised peace plan and to highlight the plight of Christians in the Middle East. The door has now been firmly shut in his face on both counts. Palestinian officials have declared a boycott of him, as have Christian leaders in Palestine and Egypt.

Instead of cancelling Pence’s visit or exploiting the extra breathing space to try to reverse the damage, the bull-headed Trump administration has indicated it is eager to break more of the china. Denied access to Palestinian officials, his schedule will focus on Israel. Following a diplomatic precedent set by his boss in May, Pence is due to visit the Western Wall in Jerusalem’s occupied Old City and immediately below the Al Aqsa mosque plaza.

His visit, however, has been billed as “official”, not private. And it will be invested with far graver symbolism, given Trump’s designation of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

To add insult to injury, and in contravention of claims that Washington will not pre-determine the borders of a divided Jerusalem before peace talks, an unnamed senior US official gave Pence’s visit an even more troubling context. He noted that there was no scenario in which the US did not see the Western Wall ending up in Israel’s hands.

The US policy change on Jerusalem has been a hammer blow to the three main pillars supporting the cause of Palestinian statehood: the Palestinian Authority, the European Union and the Arab states.

The biggest loser is Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas. Washington stripped him of his emperor’s clothes: he now heads a Palestinian government-in-waiting that is unlikely ever to be attached to a state, viable or otherwise.

The Arab states, which assumed they were the key to a much-touted “outside-in” strategy, creating a regional framework for peace, have been deprived of the single issue – Jerusalem – that matters most to them. Egypt scrambled to help Abbas at the weekend by drafting a UN security resolution to rescind any change of status for Jerusalem. But an inevitable US veto made the move moot.

And Europe, which has played “good cop” to the bullying US one, has been exposed as complicit in its partner’s rogue behaviour. Europe’s predicament is underscored by its peace-making rhetoric. It has long cried wolf, warning that a moment would soon arrive when a two-state solution was no longer feasible, when a temporary occupation morphed into permanent apartheid. Now that the heart of a Palestinian state has been publicly devoured by the wolf, what will Europe and Abbas do?

The signs are that they will pretend nothing has changed – if only out of fear of what might fill the void if peace-making were exposed as a hollow charade. But it is precisely the pretence of a peace process that has kept Palestinians chained to an illusion. The perpetuation of false hope about statehood does not benefit Palestinians; it preserves a calm that aids Israel. That was why the White House accused Abbas of walking away from dialogue last week. But only a fool keeps on appealing to the better nature of a deaf thug.

The burden now falls on the PA, the Arab states and Europe to accept the new reality, and assert a policy independent of the US.

Some Palestinian leaders, like Hanan Ashrawi, already understand this. “Trump’s move is a new era,” she said last week. “There’s no going back.”

Palestinian goals and strategies must be reassessed. Nonetheless, the pressures for a return to the “peace” business as usual will be intense. Ordinary Palestinians in Jerusalem may be the first to signal the new direction of struggle – one that recognises that a Palestinian state is dead and buried. In recent years, growing numbers have started applying, as Israeli law entitles them to, for Israeli citizenship. Israel has twisted and turned to delay honouring its commitment, even as it calls Jerusalem its “united capital”.

Palestinians will have to shame Israel, the US and the watching world by adopting the tools of an anti-apartheid struggle – of non-violent resistance and civil disobedience – to gain equal rights in a single state.

At the moment, the undercurrents of Palestinian rage chiefly swirl below the surface. But they will rise in time, and the consequences of Trump’s deed will become all too apparent.

https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/insult-to-injury-for-the-palestinians/

[Karl]

One thing it does prove is that the West are Jewish states and Christendom is dead. What has the Pope done? Nothing! Another crypto Marxist Jew. All the ravings about the Western Crusaders are false, the Crusaders have long gone. The masters of puppets are the Jewish elite and nothing more. The tentacles of Zionism are reaching out to crush Islam either by soft power assimilation or hard power. At least the game plan is very clear now. I can see only one way to win. Many people in the West are unhappy about being slaves to the Zionists so if Islam can unite with anti Zionists it may survive. But if it keeps on fighting amongst itself with backbiting and battles it will surely fail. All can unite against the common enemy of Evil.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

More analysis



Another update


US says it is 'taking names' of countries who oppose Donald Trump's Jerusalem decision

'The president and the US take this vote personally'

The US ambassador to the United Nations has warned she is "taking names" of UN members who oppose Donald Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. In a letter to UN members, Nikki Haley said the US President took the issue personally and the names of those who supported a resolution rejecting the bill would be reported to him.

“As you consider your vote, I want you to know the president and the US take this vote personally," she said.

She described Mr Trump's decision to move the US embassy as "an acknowledgement that peace is best advanced ... when all parties are honest with each other about the basic fact that Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel since the country's founding".

“The president will be watching this vote carefully and has requested I report back on those who voted against us," she added.

In a Twitter post, she said: "At the UN we're always asked to do more & give more.

"So, when we make a decision, at the will of the American ppl, abt where to locate OUR embassy, we don't expect those we've helped to target us.

"On Thurs there'll be a vote criticizing our choice. The US will be taking names."

The 193-member UN general assembly, where there are no vetoes, will hold an emergency session on Thursday to vote on the latest resolution at the request of Turkey and Yemen.

The international community has broadly condemned Mr Trump's decision to move the embassy, with Turkey describing it as "a deliberate undermining of all peace efforts".

Earlier this week, the US was outnumbered 14 to 1 at a UN security council vote on a resolution calling on America to reverse its decision, but the nation used its veto to block the measure. Ms Haley described the 14-1 vote as an "insult", warning: "It won't be forgotten".

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu thanked Ms Haley and Mr Trump for the veto in a video posted on his Facebook page, in which he said the US Ambassador "lit a candle of truth" and dispelled "lies". A spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said the veto "threatens the stability of the international community because it disrespects it".

Britain was among the nations that supported the resolution and Downing Street said Theresa May restated her disagreement with Mr Trump's decision after the vote during a phone call with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

"The Prime Minister reiterated that the UK disagreed with the decision and believed it to be unhelpful in terms of prospects for peace in the region," a No 10 spokesperson said.

She added that the status of Jerusalem should be determined in a negotiated settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians, and that Jerusalem should ultimately form a shared capital between the Israeli and Palestinian states. The Palestinian Ambassador Riyad Mansour, said said he hopes for "overwhelming support" at Thursday's general assembly vote.

Israel considers Jerusalem its indivisible capital and wants all embassies based there, while Palestinians want the capital of an independent Palestinian state to be in the city's eastern sector, which Israel annexed in a 1967 war.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-donald-trump-jerusalem-israel-capital-decision-un-security-council-resolution-vote-veto-a8119951.html

Donald Trump threatens to cut aid to UN members over Jerusalem vote

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

Israel's Netanyahu calls U.N. 'house of lies' before Jerusalem vote

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu described the United Nations as a “house of lies” ahead of a vote on Thursday on a draft resolution calling on the United States to withdraw its recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

The State of Israel totally rejects this vote, even before (the resolution‘s) approval,” Netanyahu said in a speech at a hospital dedication in the port city of Ashdod. The 193-member U.N. General Assembly will hold a rare emergency special session on Thursday at the request of Arab and Muslim countries to vote on the draft resolution, which the United States vetoed on Monday in the 15-member U.N. Security Council.

Generating outrage from Palestinians and the Arab and Muslim world, and concern among Washington’s Western allies, President Donald Trump abruptly reversed decades of U.S. policy on Dec. 6 when he recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. Palestinians have protested daily in the occupied West Bank and in the Gaza Strip since Trump’s announcement, throwing stones at security forces and burning tires. Gaza militants have also launched sporadic rocket fire.

Eight Palestinians have been killed by Israeli gunfire during the demonstrations and dozens wounded, Palestinian health officials said. Two militants were killed in an Israeli air strike in Gaza after a rocket attack. Trump threatened on Wednesday to cut off financial aid to countries that vote in favor of the U.N. draft resolution, and his ambassador to the world body, Nikki Haley said the United States “will be taking names”. Netanyahu, in his speech, thanked Trump and Haley for “their brave and uncompromising stance”. He repeated his prediction that other countries would eventually follow Washington’s lead in pledging to move their embassies from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

“The attitude towards Israel of many countries, on all continents, outside the walls of the United Nations, is changing and will ultimately permeate into the U.N. - the house of lies,” he said.

Most countries regard the status of Jerusalem as a matter to be settled in an eventual Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement, although that process is now stalled. Israel considers Jerusalem its eternal and indivisible capital and wants all embassies based there. Palestinians want the capital of an independent Palestinian state to be in the city’s eastern sector, which Israel captured in the 1967 Middle East War and annexed in a move never recognized internationally.

Several senior diplomats said Haley’s warning was unlikely

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKBN1EF14U

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Salaam

Another update

UN General Assembly rejects Trump's Jerusalem move

A resounding majority of United Nations member states has defied unprecedented threats by the US to declare President Donald Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital "null and void".

The non-binding resolution was approved at a UN General Assembly emergency meeting on Thursday with 128 votes in favour and nine against, while 35 countries abstained. It passed despite intimidation by Trump, who had threatened on Wednesday to eliminate financial aid to member states who would vote against his decision, while Nikki Haley, the US ambassador to the UN, had warned that she would be "taking names" of those countries.

Shortly after the vote, Palestinian leaders called the vote a victory for Palestine and thanked the UN member states that rejected Trump's unilateral move "despite all the pressure exerted on them".

"This decision reaffirms once again that the just Palestinian cause enjoys the support of international community, and no decisions made by any side could change the reality, that Jerusalem is an occupied territory under international law," Nabil Abu Rudeina, spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, said in a statement. Saeb Erekat, the Palestinian chief negotiator, condemned Washington's decision but said the UN vote showed respect for the rule of law.

"It's a day of shame to those who stood shoulder to shoulder with the occupation and settlements against international law," he said. "But we appreciate very much that the majority of the international community decided, in spite of the threats and intimidation of the US, to stand tall with wisdom, far-sightedness, international law and the rule of law - and not the rule of the jungle."

Mevlut Cavusoglu, foreign minister of Turkey, a co-sponsor of the resolution, said on Twitter that "dignity and sovereignty are not for sale".

Mohammad Javad Zarif, Iran's foreign minister, also welcomed the result of the vote on Twitter, calling it "a resounding global NO to Trump regime's thuggish intimidation" at the UN. For his part, Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who had earlier called the UN a "house of lies", condemned the "preposterous" vote and thanked Trump for his stance on Jerusalem.

"I do appreciate the fact that a growing number of countries refused to participate in this theatre of the absurd," he said in a televised statement.

"So I appreciate that, and especially I want to again express our thanks to President Trump and Ambassador Haley, for their stalwart defence of Israel and their stalwart defence of the truth."

'Great humiliation'

The session on Thursday at the 193-member body was held at the request of Arab and Muslim countries after the US vetoed the same measure in the Security Council on Monday.

The US was outnumbered 14 to 1 in that vote.

While the Security Council's five permanent members - the US, Britain, France, China and Russia - had veto power on Monday's vote, there are no vetoes at the General Assembly. Similar to the Egyptian-drafted text that was blocked by Washington on Monday, the draft resolution approved on Thursday did not mention the US by name but expressed "deep regret at recent decisions" concerning Jerusalem's status. Marwan Bishara, Al Jazeera's senior political analyst, called the result of the General Assembly vote a "great humiliation for the US".

Bishara said that most UN member states that voted in favour of the draft resolution did not necessarily do so to back the Palestinians but to support "international legality".

"They voted for what they saw as a violation of international law," he said.

"The resolution starts by naming several UN Security Council resolutions, where the US either voted for or abstained, saying that Israel cannot annex East Jerusalem; that Israel cannot export its own population to East Jerusalem; that Israel cannot continue with the settlement building in East Jerusalem and so on," added Bishara.

"All in all, 128 countries voted for international law."

Embassy move

In addition to recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital, Trump announced on December 6 that the US would move its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. No country currently has its embassy in the city, which is home to holy religious sites and has particular significance for Muslims, Christians and Jews. The US decision triggered a series of protests in the occupied Palestinian territories, as well as major international cities - from Jakarta, through Istanbul, to Rabat.

The status of Jerusalem has long remained a sensitive topic and one of the core issues in the Israeli-Palestine conflict. After occupying the city's eastern part in the 1967 War, Israel annexed the territory. In 1980, it proclaimed it as its "eternal, undivided capital."

The Palestinian leadership in the West Bank, however, see East Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state. They have warned that any change to the status quo would mean the end of the peace process premised on a two-state solution. Thursday's vote was reminiscent of a session in 2012, when an overwhelming majority backed Palestine's upgrade in the UN to non-member state status.

In that vote, some 138 countries supported the upgrade, while nine - including the US, Israel, Canada and several South Pacific countries - voted against.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/1...135806725.html

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update. Principled move.

ANC resolves to downgrade embassy in Israel

The African National Congress (ANC), South Africa's ruling party, has resolved to "immediately and unconditionally" downgrade the South African Embassy in Israel to a liaison office.

The ANC's decision on Wednesday evening, announced during its 54th National Conference, came on the eve of a UN General Assembly emergency session where member states resoundingly approved a draft resolution rejecting US President Donald Trump's move to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

"[It] sends a clear message to Israel that there is a price to pay for its human rights abuses and violations of international law," the ANC said in a statement.

"In order to give our practical expression of support to the oppressed people of Palestine, the ANC has unanimously resolved to direct the SA government to immediately and unconditionally downgrade the South African Embassy in Israel to a liaison office."

'A practical step towards peace'

Hashem Dajani, Palestine's ambassador in Pretoria, described the move as "an important decision". The Palestinian movement, Hamas, released a statement on Thursday acknowledging ANC members and activists in South Africa's Palestine solidarity movement "who convinced South Africans that it was the correct moral and ethical decision for their country".

The activist group, South African Jews for a Free Palestine (SAJFP), said: "the downgrade was a practical step towards a just peace".

In a statement, the organisation said: "This move by the ANC actively applies pressure on Israel's government to end its violations of international law."

But Steven Friedman, director of the Centre for the Study of Democracy at the University of Johannesburg, said the ANC's move was not legally binding. Its implementation at government level was also uncertain, he said.

"There are people who are celebrating as if this is a done deal, when it is nowhere near that," he told Al Jazeera.

"Until and unless the Department of International Relations and Cooperation (DIRCO) takes this resolution on board, it means nothing."

DIRCO is South Africa's foreign ministry.

Friedman said that it was not unusual for the ANC to show support for the Palestinians.

"It doesn't mean that it will translate into [government] policy," he said.

DIRCO officials, he added, are known to hold sympathetic views towards Israel.

Zionist organisation decries decision

Separately, the move angered the South African Board of Jewish Deputies and South African Zionist Federation.

"We question the motives behind this discriminatory decision that would effectively prevent South Africa from playing any mediatory role in bringing about peace or dialogue between Israel and Palestine‚" the group said in a statement.

"This downgrade will do nothing for the Palestinian people‚ and have a detrimental effect on South Africans. We further question the motives of organisations and individuals who have managed to 'capture' the ANC's international relations agenda‚ including the BDS."

Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions, or BDS, seeks to end the Israeli occupation and dismantle Israel's illegal wall and settlements, demands full equality for Palestinian citizens of Israel, and calls for the rights of Palestinian refugees to be upheld. The decision to downgrade the Israeli embassy came at the end of a five-day conference in which the ANC voted for a new leader, Cyril Ramaphosa, who takes over from President Jacob Zuma.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/1...114300246.html

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Meanwhile the King of Bahrain has sent a delegation to lick Bibi s boots.

Anger as 'This is Bahrain' delegation visits Israel

Palestinians have refused a Bahraini delegation from entering Gaza after the group visited Israel amid ongoing controversy over the US decision to move its embassy to Jerusalem and recognise the city as Israel's capital. The interfaith "This is Bahrain" civil society group defended its visit to Israel on Monday, a day after its trip was reported, as a gesture of tolerance. The 25-member group, which is on a five-day tour, includes Sunni and Shia Muslim leaders, Christians, the leader of a Hindu temple, and a Sikh.

It aims to visit Islamic, Christian, Jewish and other holy sites, the group said, according to a statement carried on Bahrain's state news. Ater widespread outrage, a coalition of various political factions condemned the group's attempt to visit the besieged Gaza Strip, home to two million Palestinians.

In a statement on Monday, the Palestinian National and Islamic Forces in Gaza said there was no place for those who normalise relations with Israel in Gaza - or any other place of the occupied Palestinian territories. It added that the people of Gaza would prevent the delegation from entering the enclave. Reports said the Palestinian Ministry of Education also refused to meet with This is Bahrain, and would not receive the delegation in the occupied West Bank or Gaza.

The #Bahrain_resists_normalisation hashtag was used across Twitter as people vented their frustrations.

The move comes after US President Donald Trump formally recognised Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, a declaration that has caused widespread anger across the Muslim world. Jerusalem is home to Islam's third holiest site and its status is deeply sensitive for Muslims.

Here are some social media reactions:

Hussein Youssef, a Bahraini journalist and blogger, said: "This is Bahrain has carried out a number of activities supported by official figures in Bahrain, but its latest move of sending a delegation to Israel makes any affiliation with it a criminal act, and more.

If any of the groups' members denounce the latest move, then they should immediately declare their withdrawal from it. Continuing to be a part of this organisation from now on will only mean endorsing its agenda, which does not represent the people of Bahrain."

Basmah al-Qassab, a Bahraini blogger, said: "I believe that the Zionist entity [Israel] is an unjust occupier. The delegation's visit to occupied East Jerusalem is shameful and immoral, and its claim that it represents the Bahraini people is untrue and is insulting to the Bahraini people."

Nazeeha Saeed, a dissident Bahraini journalist, said: "This is Bahrain does not represent Bahrain!!! You call yourselves a multi-religious delegation … Do not use our nation's name in your fake calls to peace and tolerance."

Raeda Sabt, a Bahraini social influencer, said: "Bahrain's support for the Palestinian cause is documented in history books, and we cannot accept people who seek to tarnish Bahrain's reputation and discredit its history by normalisation [visiting Israel] – a move has greatly hurt us."

Twitter user Maitham Almosawi wrote: "Shame and disgrace will haunt the group that gave up their dignity in the arms of the Zionist entity. And thank God for those who were able to shed light on the truth behind these fake people."

User @Sultana lBahrain said most Bahrainis opposed the visit and believe Jerusalem belongs to Israel, regardless of Trump's sentiments.

"As Israel was dropping bombs on Gaza, and Palestinians were protesting Trump's Jerusalem declaration, King Hamad of Bahrain sends delegation to convey 'message of peace' to Israel," user @chanadbh tweeted.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/1...065439149.html

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Salaam

The Foreign minister likes to lick boots as well.

Bahrain warns against challenging US over 'side issues'

Bahrain's foreign minister has said it is unhelpful to "pick a fight" with the United States over "side issues", while there is a threat from Iran.

Khalid al-Khalifa tweeted to his 460,000 followers on Wednesday: "It's not helpful to pick a fight with the USA over side issues while we together fight the clear and present danger of The Theo-Fascist Islamic republic." Relations between Bahrain and the Islamic Republic, Iran, are strained over various issues.

Bahrain and Israel, meanwhile, are united in their views on Iran, which they see as a threat to security. Many of the 672 people who responded to Khalifa's tweet interpreted the "side issues" he referred to as Washington's stance on Jerusalem. On December 6, US President Donald Trump announced that the US recognises Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and would move its embassy there from Tel Aviv.

The move has drawn international condemnation and sparked a wave of heated protests around the world.

Khalifa's tweet, which unlike most of his messages on the social media site was posted in English and not Arabic, comes after a Bahrain delegation came under fire for visiting Israel earlier in December, after Trump's announcement.

Aside from December's developments, Bahrain's King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa in September was at the centre of rumours that Manama had called for normalising relations with Israel. Israel's foreign affairs ministry tweeted that Khalifa had denounced an Arab boycott of Israel and confirmed Bahraini citizens were free to visit Israel. Shortly after the tweet was posted, it was deleted. Critics say countries should refuse to normalise relations with Israel at a time when it is illegally occupying Palestinian land and oppressing the Palestinian people.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/bahrain-warns-challenging-side-issues-171221065312815.html

[Karl]

Seems to be a lot of Arab Zionists out there. The rich poodles of the West I mean. It's a wonder there are no revolutions going on. Probably be building synagogues all over the Arab world next.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Yes, there just a bunch of satraps.

Another update, MBS once again demonstrating his 'leadership' abilities.

Saudi crown prince tried to persuade Abbas to support US peace plan: Officials
#Occupation

Mohammed bin Salman told the Palestinian president that the US was 'the only game in town' when it came to the peace process

Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (MbS) asked Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to back a US-sponsored peace plan for Israel-Palestine, officials told Middle East Eye. Abbas was invited to Saudi Arabia's capital Riyadh on Tuesday where he held talks with King Salman and MbS. The invitation came shortly following a meeting of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) in Istanbul where Abbas announced that he would no longer accept the US as a broker in the peace process.

However, on Tuesday MbS told Abbas that the US was "the only game in town" with regards to the peace process.

"The US is the only one with real influence on Israel, it's the only country that can put pressure on Israel in any peace process and no one else can do [that], neither EU, nor Russia or China," MbS told Abbas, according to Palestinian officials with knowledge of the meeting.

MbS told Abbas in a previous visit early this month that the US was "preparing for a peace deal, and this deal might not look good at the beginning but at the end it will be good." He also asked Abbas at the time to have the Palestinians in Lebanon align with the pro-Saudi camp and stay away from the pro-Iranian camp led by Hezbollah, the officials said.

"At some point bin Salman warned President Abbas that if he doesn't do the job in Lebanon, there are others who can do it, pointing to Mohammed Dahlan," one official told MEE, referring to the dissident Fatah politician.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/saudis-crown-prince-tried-persuade-abbas-support-us-peace-plan-officials-1621222721

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update. The word munafiqun comes to my mind.

The Saudi-UAE media attack on Erdoğan

Immediately after the end of the Special meeting of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation Summit on Jerusalem, which was called by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, a number of Saudi and UAE media outlets began attacking Iran and Turkey in an unusual way. In an interview with Quds Press, the Secretary-General of the Turkish-Arab Institute for Strategic Studies in Turkey, Badr al-Din Habib Oglu, said: “The issue of Jerusalem has affected most of the Arab regimes, the Gulf regimes in particular, specifically Saudi Arabia.”

He added that the attack makes it clear that the UAE and Saudi arabia are involved in the US-Israeli plan “which revolves around abandoning the Palestinian cause and selling Jerusalem in exchange for the strengthening Mohammed bin Salman’s rule and the imposition of a new vision in the region.”

Oglu went on “the marginalisation of Turkey in the Islamic world and pressuring it through the media are part of a US-Zionist plan that is backed by Saudi Arabia and the UAE … The reason for this attack is the that the Turkish position on the rejection of the US decision on Jerusalem, is strong and has helped to mobilise the protests on Palestinian, Arab and Islamic streets.”

He added: “Turkey seeks to maintain a strong Palestinian, Arab and Islamic position against the US decision on Jerusalem and has not focused on Saudi Arabia. Instead, Turkey has just focused on the Zionist entity and the USA … [but] as President Erdoğan said. If we cannot protect Jerusalem today, we will not be able to protect Mecca and Medina tomorrow,” as he put it.

In an interview with Quds Press in Geneva, the Secretary-General of the Geneva Council for International Relations and Development, Anouar Gharbi, said that “the campaign against Turkey and President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan by some Saudi and UAE media sources does not serve the interests of the people of the Arab and Islamic region and directly damages the issue of the day; the issue of Jerusalem”.

He added: “It is a campaign that is similar to the campaign against Erdoğan in Israel, which uses extremist right-wing statements such as Israeli Minister of Intelligence and Transportation Yisrael Katz in his interview with the Saudi website Elaph.”

Gharbi called on the “reasonable and wise Saudi politicians to quickly stop their country’s fast plummet into a quagmire.”

He said: “Saudi Arabia is today at a dangerous crossroad and its choice to be behind the UAE which is fighting all fronts to abort the dreams of Arab people in justice, dignity and freedom, is a dangerous choice that does not meet the interests of the Saudi people.”

He added: “Saudi Arabia’s choice to be against the Arab, Islamic and international concerns – some of which were expressed by Erdoğan and other leaders during the recent Islamic summit – will leave Saudi Arabia with difficulties in the future which Saudi diplomacy will not be able to deal with.”

Al-Gharbi went on, “A number of UN reporters are currently working on files on human rights violations within the country and requests which question the ability of Saudis to protect holy sites, in addition to considering petitions which call for Saudi officials to be prosecuted for alleged war crimes in Yemen and the September attacks files as well as corruption files and claims to freeze deposits abroad.

Al-Gharbi concluded his interview with Quds Press, saying: “It is inconceivable that Saudi Arabia which is the Land of the Two Holy Mosques and the Qibla, should adopt an approach hostile to the people and, instead, serves a Zionist agenda that has become known to all for its hostility against the decisions of international legitimacy and the humiliation of the entire international community”. Saudi Arabia’s Al Riyadh newspaper published an article by Saudi writer Dr. Abdullah Nasser al-Fawzan, Monday, in which he launched a scathing attack on Iran and Turkey, which he described as “a wordy show off against Saudi Arabia.”

He said: “The Iranian president says that he has no objection to re-establish relations with us if and if, and he is delivering offensive words that the wise person refuses to mention, as if he was the one who cut the ties and we are beggars on his door, and now Erdogan, whom I do not remember that any of the rulers of the kingdom has offended or blamed in the past, and yet he continues his abuse. He used Jerusalem as a pretext and ridiculously talks about how to protect Medina, Mecca and the Kaaba from Israel and considers himself as one of its great protectors, as if he did not know that Iran, which he collaborates with, directs its rockets now by the Houthis to Mecca and the Kaaba… So, the sooner the better… Defend Mecca and the Kaaba, Oh Saviour!”

Al-Fawzan added: “We understand that the whole issue is just idle talk and falsehood. If they were serious, the Iranian president should ask Erdoğan to cut his overt relations with Israel instead of slandering us with having secret relations with Israel, and these relations are the cause of all the perils”.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20171219-the-saudi-uae-media-attack-on-erdogan/

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

Palestinian Christians slam US Jerusalem recognition

Palestinian Christian religious leaders have decried US recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital as an “insult” to Muslims and Christians around the world.

“We, Palestinians, Christians and Muslims reject the US recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel,” Jerusalem’s Greek Orthodox Archbishop Atallah Hanna said at a press conference in the West Bank city of Bethlehem on Saturday.

“This declaration is an insult to our people and to our just cause,” he said.

He said the US decision was “an insult to Christians and Muslims around the world, who consider Jerusalem as an incubator of their most sacred, spiritual and national heritage”.nnHanna warned that the US decision was “dangerous” to the Palestinian cause.

“The US gave the occupation what it does not deserve,” he said, “Jerusalem is the city which we consider as our capital and an incubator of our holy sites.”

On 6 December, US President Donald Trump officially recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital despite worldwide opposition. The decision sparked angry demonstrations across the Muslim world. Following a UN Security Council resolution that would have passed unanimously but for a US veto, the UN General Assembly passed a resolution spurning the US move by 128-9 votes.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and other top Turkish officials have been at the international forefront opposing the US move, through sponsoring the UNGN resolution and calling an emergency meeting of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC), among other measures.

Jerusalem remains at the heart of the Middle East conflict with Palestinians hoping that East Jerusalem — occupied by Israel — might eventually serve as the capital of an independent state of Palestine.

Colonial Project

Hanna said Israeli violations targeted all Palestinians, whether Muslims or Christians and their holy sites in Jerusalem. “As we all stood up to defend the Aqsa Mosque, we will stand to defend the Christian endowments,” he said.

“Together we will stop the new colonial Trump project which aims to end the Palestinian cause,” he stressed.

Munib A. Younan, bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Jordan and the Holy Land, for his part, said Jerusalem is the capital of the three religions – Islam, Christianity and Judaism — and the capital of two peoples.

He stressed that the Evangelical Lutheran Church refuses any change of Jerusalem’s historical status.

“Whoever tries to change it [status quo] wants to turn this just cause into a religious war,” he said. Father Ibrahim Filtis, a Franciscan priest, said the US decision on Jerusalem has brought the Palestinian cause back to the forefront of world attention.

“This is a victory for the Palestinian cause, which is a central issue and the mother of all conflicts,” he said.

Bethlehem’s Governor, Gebrin Bakri, for his part, reiterated the rejection of the 14 churches in Palestinian territories of the US declaration on Jerusalem.

“The US states has decided to support Israel instead of supporting the status of the holy city,” he said.

“Because of this decision, we will not accept the US as a mediator in the peace process,” he said.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...m-recognition/

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update. Trump cuts funding to the UN in response to the vote.

US ambassador hails $285m cut in funding for UN as 'big step in the right direction'

‘We will no longer let the generosity of the American people be taken advantage of or remain unchecked’

The United States government has claimed to have negotiated a significant cut to the United Nations budget. The US Mission to the UN said the 2018/19 budget would be slashed by over $285m (£213m) and reductions would also be made to the UN’s management and support functions. But the announcement did not make clear what effect the budget reduction will have on the US contribution. Nikki Haley, the US ambassador to the UN, said the “inefficiency and overspending” of the organisation is well-known.

“We will no longer let the generosity of the American people be taken advantage of or remain unchecked,” she said.

“This historic reduction in spending – in addition to many other moves toward a more efficient and accountable UN – is a big step in the right direction.

“While we are pleased with the results of this year’s budget negotiations, you can be sure we’ll continue to look at ways to increase the UN’s efficiency‎ while protecting our interests.”

It comes after Donald Trump threatened to cut off aid to any country in the UN that voted against his decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. “Let them vote against us,” the US President said. “We’ll save a lot. We don’t care.”
Ms Haley sent letters to over 180 countries warning them Washington would be taking the names of those who voted against the US.

The UN General Assembly went on to vote overwhelmingly to denounce Mr Trump’s decision. The nonbinding resolution declaring the US decision on Jerusalem “null and void” was approved 128-9. It reaffirmed what has been the UN’s stand on the divided holy city since 1967: Jerusalem’s final status must be decided in direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. The Trump administration made it clear the vote would have no effect on its plan to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/us-cut-un-funding-285m-donald-trump-nikki-haley-jerusalem-a8128426.html

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Salaam

Another update

Jerusalem latest: Donald Trump to have new Israeli train station near Western Wall named after him

Transportation minister hails US President's 'historic and brave decision' to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital

A new train station close to the Western Wall in Jerusalem is to be named after Donald Trump, Israel’s Transportation Minister has announced. Yisrael Katz said the stop, which will be called the “Donald John Trump, Western Wall” station, was a tribute to the US President’s decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Mr Katz told the Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper: “The Western Wall is the holiest place for the Jewish people, and I decided to call the train station that leads to it after President Trump following his historic and brave decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of the State of Israel.”

The announcement comes weeks after Mr Trump ordered the State Department to begin the process of moving the US embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem and recognise the latter as the country’s capital.

At the time, he said: “Today we finally acknowledge the obvious: that Jerusalem is Israel’s capital. This is nothing more or less than a recognition of reality. It is also the right thing to do. It’s something that has to be done.”

The move was criticised by much of the international community amid fears it will harm the prospects of peace, but was backed by most Israeli leaders. Mr Trump became the first sitting US president to visit the Western Wall when he travelled to Jerusalem in May. One of the holiest sites in Judaism, the wall is the only remaining part of the of the Second Jewish Temple that was destroyed in 70AD. It is also considered important in Islam as the place where the Prophet Muhammad is said to have tethered his horse, Buraq.

The planned train station will be at one end of a new 3km tunnel stretching from HaUma station on the outskirts of Jerusalem to the Cardo in the heart of the city’s ancient Jewish Quarter, close to the Western Wall. The new line is expected to cost more than £500m and, if approved, would take four years to build. It is likely to face strong opposition from Palestinians and much of the international community because the route will go through East Jerusalem, which is not legally recognised as Israeli territory by the international community. The area is heavily disputed, having been recaptured by Israel during the Six Day War in 1967.

Because the track will pass under Jerusalem’s historic Old City, construction work could also be delayed if sites of archaeological interest are discovered during excavations. Mr Katz said he had ordered government officials to make the new line his department’s top priority. It will form an extension to the high-speed rail line between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv that has been under construction since 2001 and is due to open next year.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/jerusalem-latest-news-donald-trump-western-wall-train-station-israel-new-named-capital-decision-a8129791.html

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Salaam

Ah yes, they would rather submit to the Zionists and Western powers.

UAE diplomat says Arabs won’t be led by Turkey

Emirati minister calls for rallying around ‘Arab axis’ of Saudi Arabia and Egypt to ward off Turkey and Iran

A senior UAE diplomat said on Wednesday that the Arab world would not be led by Turkey, the Gulf state’s first comment on Ankara since a quarrel broke out last week over a retweet by the Emirati foreign minister that President Tayyip Erdogan called an insult. Anwar Gargash, minister of state for foreign affairs of UAE, said there is a need to rally around the “Arab axis” of Saudi Arabia and Egypt to ward off regional powers that wish to expand their influence at the expense of the Arab World.

“The Arab world will not be led by Tehran or Ankara,” he wrote on his official Twitter page.

Last week, Turkey summoned the charge d’affaires at the UAE embassy in Ankara, after UAE Foreign Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed al-Nahayan shared a tweet that accused Turkish troops of looting the holy city of Medina a century ago.

‘Officials in some countries who lack respect for boundaries, historical knowledge and diplomatic etiquette cannot overshadow the brotherhood that links us to Arab people,’ Erdogan tweeted last week (Twitter)

Erdogan himself lashed out: “Some impertinent man sinks low and goes as far as accusing our ancestors of thievery … What spoiled this man? He was spoiled by oil, by the money he has,” the Turkish leader said at an awards ceremony.

Turkey’s state-run Anadolu newspaper reported on Saturday that Turkey planned to rename the street where the UAE embassy is located in Ankara after Fakhreddin Pasha, the commander of the Ottoman Turkish troops at Medina in 1916.

Medina, the holiest site in Islam after Mecca, is in what is now Saudi Arabia. Fakhreddin Pasha held Medina for more than two years of siege by the British-backed forces of Sharif Hussein, who revolted against the Ottoman empire during the First World War.

“Officials in some countries who lack respect for boundaries, historical knowledge and diplomatic etiquette cannot overshadow the brotherhood that links us to Arab people,” Erdogan tweeted in Arabic last week in an apparent reference to the UAE foreign minister.

The UAE sees itself as a bulwark against political forms of Islam, and views Erdogan’s ruling AK party as a supporter of groups like the Muslim Brotherhood. Abu Dhabi has also been accused of being involved in a failed coup against Erdogan last year. Moreover, the UAE and Saudi Arabia have led a blockade against Qatar, a major ally of Turkey. Ankara has established a military base in Qatar as part of a joint-defence agreement. Shutting down that base is one of 13 demands by the UAE, Saudi, Bahrain and Egypt to lift their sanctions against Qatar.

https://www.middleeastobserver.org/2017/12/28/uae-diplomat-says-arabs-wont-be-led-by-turkey/

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update. This is important but speaking out and protesting is not enough.

Message from Turkish protester about Muslims defending Al-Aqsa



Shaykh Asrar Rasid: “We will never leave Masjid Al-Aqsa”



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Salaam

Another update

NBA website changes Palestine definition after Israeli minister's letter

NBA deletes phrase ‘occupied’ after Miri Regev says it is at odds with Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital

Israel’s far-right sports and culture minister has taken credit for the US National Basketball Association’s decision to remove the description “occupied” from its depiction of Palestine on its website, despite the fact that the phrase describes the internationally recognised legal status of the Palestinian territories.

The NBA’s site originally listed “occupied Palestine territories” and at time of writing had deleted the word “occupied” at the instance of two Israeli ministers, one of whom suggested they were in fact part of Israel.

The row over the inclusion of the words in a pop-up menu provided by a third party in an online poll of favourite players is the latest example of the lengths Israeli ministers will go to challenge the accepted legal definition of Palestine’s status.

In a letter to the NBA commissioner, Adam Silver, the sports minister, Miri Regev, called the Palestinian territories “an imaginary ‘state’” and said the listing was not in line with Donald Trump’s recent recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital.

“I view the inclusion of ‘Occupied Palestine’ in the list of countries appearing on your official website as legitimizing the division of the State of Israel and as gross and blatant interference, in contrast to the official position of the American administration and the declarations of President Donald Trump, who just recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel,” wrote Regev.

The NBA’s president of social responsibility, Kathy Behrens, told Israel National News that country listings were provided by a third party. “We do not produce the country listings for NBA.com, and as soon as we became aware of it the site was updated. We apologise for this oversight, and have corrected it,” Behrens said.

Palestinians seek east Jerusalem, captured by Israel from Jordan in the 1967 six-day war, as the capital of their future state. Israel claims the whole city as its capital.

Regev thanked Silver on Friday for removing the words. She said: “Israel’s lands are not occupied; therefore what was written was false and should have been deleted.”

Regev’s position is starkly at odds with mainstream international opinion and that of the UN, which refers to the West Bank and Gaza as occupied.

Both the United Nations security council and the international court of justice regard the West Bank, Gaza and Western Golan Heights as territory that is occupied by Israel under international law.

Israel’s deputy minister of foreign affairs, Tzipi Hotovely, had also called on the NBA to take action. “This week, US ambassador Friedman called for the cessation of the use of the term ‘occupied’ in regard to Judea and Samaria, and an important sports league such as the NBA should respect this view,” said Hotovely.

Hotovely was referring to a reported claim in the Israeli media – sharply disputed by the US state department – that Friedman had called for the dropping of the term “occupied”.

Regev is no stranger to interposing herself in disputes with sporting organisations whose views do not accord with her own. Last month she threatened to pull support for the Giro d’Italia bike race after organisers described a section of the route as going through “west Jerusalem”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/29/israel-sports-minister-forces-nba-website-to-remove-palestine-occupied-jerusalem-trump

[Karl]

Why any nation would want to be in the UN to begin with has always utterly baffled me. Not only does it cost $$$ to be in the UN, it is also an organization that undermines regional cultures, customs, and legal jurisdictions and replaces all these extremely important things with internationalist cultural and legal dogmas. Furthermore, the UN is also merely a paper tiger anyway and will never intervene whenever a big powerful nation invades a small nation. They ONLY intervene when an invading aggressor is a relatively small nation, and even then sometimes they won't act, particularly if the invading nation happens to be more politically in line with the UN's overall mind-set than the country being invaded. The UN is really just a carefully disguised organization of globalist Marxists whose intentions are ultimately to overthrow national sovereignty and impose an anti-religious feminist one world totalitarian government.

The amount of money the USA gives the UN is mind blowing, and Trump's decision to reduce that amount is analogous to removing one single gold coin from a large barrel of gold coins, so it's a miniscule reduction anyway.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

The Coming Collapse of Zionism in America



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Another reminder, his latest book on the Israel Palestine conflict will be released very soon

The Gaza Strip is among the most densely populated places in the world. More than two-thirds of its inhabitants are refugees, and more than half are under eighteen years of age. Since 2004, Israel has launched eight devastating “operations” against Gaza’s largely defenseless population. Thousands have perished, and tens of thousands have been left homeless. In the meantime, Israel has subjected Gaza to a merciless illegal blockade.

What has befallen Gaza is a man-made humanitarian disaster.

Based on scores of human rights reports, Norman G. Finkelstein's new book presents a meticulously researched inquest into Gaza’s martyrdom. He shows that although Israel has justified its assaults in the name of self-defense, in fact these actions constituted flagrant violations of international law.

But Finkelstein also documents that the guardians of international law—from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch to the UN Human Rights Council—ultimately failed Gaza. One of his most disturbing conclusions is that, after Judge Richard Goldstone's humiliating retraction of his UN report, human rights organizations succumbed to the Israeli juggernaut.

Finkelstein’s magnum opus is both a monument to Gaza’s martyrs and an act of resistance against the forgetfulness of history.

Salaam

Another update

More than 300 Muslim Scholars Issue a Statement Forbidding Normalization with 'Israel’

On Monday, more than 300 Muslim scholars met during a conference in Istanbul to sign the "Covenant of the Muslim Scholars" to end the growing wave of normalization with Israel. The conference’s statement confirmed that “Islamic Sharia bans normalization with Israel because of the dangers it poses to the Palestinian cause and the resistance” The Covenant was signed by 300 Muslim Scholars from different countries, including Turkey, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Iraq, Malaysia and Mauritania, calling for an end to normalization with Israel.

The Covenant stated that "normalization with the Zionist entity (Israel) is forbidden according to Sharia, because it contradicts the requirements of faith and its obligations which is based on loyalty to the believers and their mandatory support”

And that "all attempts to undermine the Palestinian cause through the resettlement of [Palestinian] refugees, or the Judaization of holy sites (especially in occupied Jerusalem) do not establish any legitimacy for the Zionist entity and does not change its description as occupation and aggression." According to the Covenant, "resistance to normalization stems from the Muslim Ummah's strategy for the liberation of Palestine, whereas normalization threatens the resistance project, weakens its roots in the hearts of Muslims, and undermine the Palestinian cause."

The Covenant calls on "intellectuals, scientists, scholars, and opinion leaders, individuals and institutions, to form a public opinion in their countries against normalization with the occupation and to call for resistance."

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=32885

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

Palestinians are watching Saudi Arabia closely

Palestinians have been carefully watching Saudi Arabia drawing closer to Israel.

The past few months have seen not only a flood of Saudi statements on social media supporting normalisation with Israel (some saying that Saudi is "more important" than Palestine and others apparently dreaming of Israel becoming Saudi's top vacationing spot), but also a flurry of diplomatic activity between Riyadh and Tel Aviv. Saudi and Israeli political leadership agree on a number of issues, the most important of which is the need to curb Iran's growing influence and to keep the US engaged in the Middle East. Pursuing these common interests, the Saudis and the Israelis have intensified their efforts for a formal normalisation of relations.

In June 2017, Anwar Eshki, former Saudi general and current head of the Middle East Center for Strategic and Legal Studies, said that Saudi Arabia would accept normalisation with Israel if it, in turn, accepted the Arab peace initiative. He also said that if Saudi Arabia did so, the rest of the Islamic world would follow suit.

In October, former head of Saudi intelligence Prince Turki al-Faisal took part in a forum in New York with the former head of Mossad, Efraim Halevy.

In November, Israeli Chief of Staff General Gadi Eizenkot had an interview with Saudi website Elaph. The same month, the Israeli minister of communications, Ayoub Kara, invited Saudi Mufti Abdulaziz Al Sheikh to visit Tel Aviv.

In early December, the New York Times published details of an alleged Saudi proposal for a Palestinian state on parts of the West Bank and the Jerusalem village of Abu Dees as its capital. Just a few days later, US President Donald Trump declared officially that the US is recognising Jerusalem as the capital of the Israeli state. At the time of the declaration, a delegation from a Washington pro-Israeli think-tank was in Riyadh meeting with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, who demonstrated that he didn't "want to talk about Jerusalem".

And while Riyadh and Tel Aviv have been engaged in public and secret overtures, they have also been pushing the Palestinian political leadership into a corner. In November, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas made a sudden visit to Riyadh and returned visibly perturbed. Rumours in Ramallah had it that the Saudis had pressed him to accept their plan for Palestine, and that this was likely tied to an agreement between US presidential envoys Jared Kushner and Jason Greenblatt and the Saudi crown prince, reached during their unannounced meeting at the end of October.

Then, in December, after Trump's announcement on Jerusalem, Mohamed Ashtieh, member of the Fatah Central Committee, said that unnamed Arab countries had refused to hold an Arab summit about Jerusalem. It was also rumoured that Saudi Arabia and Egypt were pressuring Abbas not to attend the Organisation for Islamic Cooperation summit in Turkey. Abbas resisted this pressure and attended the summit and followed it with a visit to Qatar, which Saudi Arabia is currently imposing a blockade on.

By now, Palestinians have no illusions about what Saudi Arabia is pushing for. It is clear to all of us that Riyadh is not working for a just peace solution and an end to Israeli occupation of Palestinian land. Unsurprisingly, Palestinian social media has exploded in anger at Saudi actions; Twitter, for example, has seen a popular hashtag "Normalisation is betrayal" emerge. Some have called for burning pictures of the Saudi king; others have said Saudis calling for normalisation are "Zionists in Arab clothes".

The anger also spread beyond social media, with portraits of Saudi King Salman and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman being torn at a Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine rally, amid chants like "King Salman sold Jerusalem!"

The image of Saudi Arabia and its allies has suffered immensely within Palestine. A survey conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in Gaza and the West Bank showed that 82 percent of Palestinians do not trust the Saudis would defend their rights, and 75 percent and 70 percent do not trust, respectively, the UAE and Egypt - both major Saudi allies. What the Saudis are not factoring in, in their foreign policy calculations, is that Palestinians will resist any attempt for an unjust settlement. There is enough mistrust towards Riyadh already and whatever peace initiative comes out of its negotiations with the US and Israel will be outright rejected.

Even if the Palestinian leadership is pressed into concessions, people on the ground will continue their resistance. The Saudi plan will eventually crumble, as will Saudi Arabia's reputation in the Middle East and beyond.

The region has already been through two intifadas and an Arab Spring. Arab youth have proven that they can face off with local regimes and superpowers. They will not accept more injustice, and heavy-handed repression would only inflame their anger.

An unjust settlement will not bring peace.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/palestinians-watching-saudi-arabia-closely-171231125232104.html

[Singularity]

Excerpt:

http://theartnewspaper.com/news/muslim-leaders-across-the-middle-east-work-with-israeli-rabbis-to-keep-the-peace


Muslim leaders across the Middle East work with Israeli rabbis to keep the peace
Interfaith network says that its efforts are more difficult—and urgent—since President Trump’s declaration on Jerusalem’s status
LAUREN GELFOND FELDINGER


1st January 2018 10:50 GMT

Sheikh Raed Bader and Rabbi Michael Melchior: key figures in the religious peace network ALF/UNAOC
A remarkable alliance of Israeli orthodox rabbis and Muslim religious leaders in the Middle East is mediating behind the scenes following the anger and violence sparked by President Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital last month.


As demonstrations continue throughout the region, Israeli forces clashing with Palestinian protesters and Israeli air strikes following rockets fired from Gaza have left at least a dozen Palestinians dead and hundreds injured.


The US Jerusalem declaration has also emboldened Arab calls to boycott associations with Israelis. But these Muslim and Jewish religious scholars remain dedicated to non-violent strategies for securing rights and security for both Israelis and Palestinians and to “stop people killing”, Sheikh Imad Falogi, a former Hamas leader in Gaza, tells The Art Newspaper.


The covert interfaith efforts, which religious leaders describe as a “religious peace network”, began in the early 1990s and spread across Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, focusing especially on maintaining the peace in Jerusalem and its holy sites. In 2002, the senior Egyptian mufti Mohammed Sayed Tantawi joined several Holy Land religious leaders and the Archbishop of Canterbury to sign the Alexandria Declaration, a set of shared religious principles for non-violence.


Today the coalition includes a growing number of Muslim scholars in almost every Arab country; the network stretches from the North African Arab states to Middle Eastern countries, including Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. Some Muslim leaders have met with Israeli orthodox rabbis in Spain, Italy, Norway and Turkey. While they primarily focus on improving Jewish-Muslim relations, they also maintain close connections with church leaders from Jerusalem, Israel and the West Bank. The Pope is kept apprised of their work, they say.


Despite anger with the US declaration that it will move its embassy to Jerusalem and with Israel over Palestinian rights, “big” numbers of Islamic leaders in the Middle East and around the world want to work with these Israeli rabbis “for a real peace and political and community rights”, Falogi says. Religious leaders must play a role, he explains, because they can achieve results better and faster than politicians as they have “more power in the Middle East”.


Falogi also says that the rabbis he sees as his allies have studied the Quran, as he has studied the Christian Bible and Jewish holy texts. “The rabbis in this network understand us—our religion and rights—better than the politicians.”


Equality not separation
Avi Gisser, an Israeli orthodox rabbi who heads the West Bank settlement of Ofra and is chair of Israel’s national religious education council, has deep respect for his Islamic partners. “I teach in the Jewish religious community that we need to build our life together, Jew and Arab, Jewish and Muslim; there must be equality, not separation,” he says. Gisser also now teaches on Islam and Palestinian rights, and advocates for interfaith connections for “security and to fight terror”.


“It is dangerous to talk to rabbis but I’m convinced it is good for the two sides,” says the Islamic law scholar, Ali Sartawi, who served as a Hamas-affiliated minister of justice in the 2007 Palestinian government. “We can’t build peace with the political side only. I don’t have any problems with Jewish people on the Israeli side. I respect the Jewish religion. But if fundamentalists grow on both sides, I will be afraid.”


“Of course there are extremist Jews and Arabs who don’t like [this alliance],” Gisser says. “But in the general population there is a lot of will for closer relations.” Earlier this year, when Sheikh Abdallah Nimer Darwish, the co-founder of the Islamic Movement in Israel who also helped to set up the religious peace network, died, Gisser visited the mourning tent and was invited to speak. “They accepted me,” he says.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

Annexation of Jerusalem is speeding up.

Israel passes law to prevent ceding control of Jerusalem
Move shows resurgent confidence of Netanyahu’s rightwing government

Israel’s parliament passed a law on Tuesday that bars ceding any part of Jerusalem to a foreign power without the approval of a supermajority of lawmakers, a move that threatens to further hinder prospects of peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

The amendment to the Jerusalem Basic Law prevents the relinquishing of any municipal territory in the city without the endorsement of at least 81 of the Knesset’s 120 lawmakers. It also allows the government to separate areas of the city — such as majority Palestinian neighbourhoods — from the Jerusalem municipality, but requires those new administrations to remain under Israeli sovereignty.

Israel considers the whole of Jerusalem to be its united capital, while the Palestinians see East Jerusalem, which Israel captured in the 1967 war and subsequently annexed, as the capital of a future state. Most of the international community does not recognise Israeli sovereignty over East Jerusalem.

The bill approved by Israeli lawmakers was toned down compared with previous versions, and can be repealed with a simple majority of 61 parliamentarians, making it a largely symbolic gesture.

A 2014 law already requires a supermajority in parliament or a national referendum for Israel to ratify an agreement that stipulates the conceding of territory under Israeli law, namely East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.

The office of Mahmoud Abbas, president of the Palestinian National Authority, seethed over the Knesset’s approval of the law, issuing a statement on Tuesday calling it “tantamount to a declaration of war” against the Palestinian people.

The law passed on Tuesday had been long in the legislative pipeline, but came swiftly on the heels of a resolution by the ruling Likud party’s central committee on Sunday calling for the annexation of Israeli settlements in the West Bank.

The resolution by the advisory body is non-binding for Likud lawmakers, but the central committee’s unanimous vote serves as a barometer of party opinion. Together, the Likud party resolution and the Jerusalem law are seen as a sign of the resurgent confidence of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s rightwing government in advancing a hawkish agenda.

Palestinians believe Mr Netanyahu’s party has been emboldened by US President Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital last month. Mr Abbas said the Likud party resolution could not have been be taken “without the full support of the US administration”.

Although the White House specified that “the specific boundaries of Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem were subject to final status negotiations between the parties”, Mr Trump’s proclamation in December infuriated not only Palestinians but much of the Arab world. Palestinian leaders said it proved the US could no longer be seen as an impartial mediator.

It unclear what impact the new Israeli law on the city will have on the already distant hopes of a peace agreement.

https://www.ft.com/content/3d852c56-efb9-11e7-ac08-07c3086a2625

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Salaam

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Salaam

Trump being his usual thuggish self.


Trump threatens to cut US aid to Palestinians to force peace talks

President says US gets ‘no appreciation or respect’ from Palestinian Authority after it recognised Jerusalem as Israel’s capital

Donald Trump on Tuesday appeared to threaten to cut off US aid money to the Palestinian Authority, saying they were no longer willing to negotiate.

Trump, in a pair of tweets, said the US paid “the Palestinians HUNDRED [sic] OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year and get no appreciation or respect. They don’t even want to negotiate a long overdue … peace treaty with Israel.”

He added: “We have taken Jerusalem, the toughest part of the negotiation, off the table, but Israel, for that, would have had to pay more. But with the Palestinians no longer willing to talk peace, why should we make any of these massive future payments to them?”

Trump infuriated many in the Middle East when he announced late last year the US would consider Jerusalem the capital of Israel and move its embassy there.

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said the announcement destroyed Trump’s credibility as a Middle East peace broker, calling the decision “a declaration of withdrawal from the role it has played in the peace process”.

Tuesday’s tweets mark a tacit admission by Trump that his decision to move the US embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem had thrown a wrench into his administration’s plans to restart the peace process between Israelis and Palestinians. Trump gave son-in-law Jared Kushner the task of restarting the effort, and brought his former attorney, Jason Greenblatt, into the White House to lead the negotiations, which he had dubbed “the ultimate deal”.

On Twitter, Trump also issued a threat to cut off foreign aid to an unspecified list of countries.

“It’s not only Pakistan that we pay billions of dollars to for nothing, but also many other countries, and others,” Trump tweeted, appearing to reference a 1 January tweet lambasting Pakistan for failing to do enough to combat terror groups while taking US aid. “No more!” Trump had tweeted on Monday.

US leaders of both parties have long utilised foreign assistance dollars, a minor percentage of the overall budget, to promote American interests abroad, alleviate humanitarian crises and support oppressed peoples.

Trump’s envoy to the United Nations, Nikki Haley, foreshadowed Trump’s warning earlier on Tuesday at the security council. Haley said the president did not want to give any more funds “until the Palestinians are willing to come back to the negotiation table”.

“We still very much want to have a peace process. Nothing changes with that. The Palestinians now have to show they want to come to the table,” Haley said. “As of now, they’re not coming to the table, but they ask for aid. We’re not giving the aid. We’re going to make sure that they come to the table.”

Trump’s Middle East peace team had held meetings with Israeli, Palestinian and Arab leaders for nearly a year before an expected peace proposal.

But by recognising Israel’s claim to Jerusalem, Trump was seen by the Palestinians as siding with Israel on the most sensitive issue in the conflict. The Palestinians seek east Jerusalem, which Israel captured in 1967, for their capital.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/03/trump-threatens-cut-aid-palestinians-peace-talks

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

I pray that the US cuts off aid to the Palestinians

Like many other Palestinians, I pray and implore God that Donald Trump makes good on his threat to cut off the Palestinian Authority’s $300 million annual grant — and also that the European donors follow suit, writes veteran Arab journalist Abdel Bari Atwan.

For that would mean the collapse of the PA and the Oslo accords that brought it into being in exchange for ceding 80% of Palestine’s territory and recognising the Israeli state.

Trump took a leaf out of the book of some of the Arab Gulf states on Tuesday night when he took to Twitter to accuse the Palestinians of ingratitude and insubordination.

“We pay the Palestinians HUNDRED OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year and get no appreciation or respect. They don’t even want to negotiate a long overdue,” he declared. “With the Palestinians no longer willing to talk peace, why should we make any of these massive future payments to them?”

This is something of an inversion of Trump’s policy towards the Gulf states. From them, he has been demanding hundreds of billions of dollars in return for their military protection. From the Palestinians and the PA, he is demanding “concessions” over Jerusalem and the West Bank in exchange for a paltry $300 million per year. A more shameless act of blackmail is hard to imagine.

Trump excels at this extortionist method of doing business and knows no other way of operating. It is all about deal-making and profit-taking with no regard to morality or values, international law, political considerations or the minimal rights of others. Either submit to the dictates of Netanyahu – as conveyed by Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner – or else.

Pacifying the Palestinians

US aid to the PA is aimed at pacifying the Palestinian people and bribing them to abandon all forms of resistance to the Occupation by preoccupying them with seeking to improve their living conditions under the rubric of “economic peace,” while deluging their ruling elite in Ramallah with loans, mortgages, flashy cars and other trappings of luxury.

Living conditions for the majority of Palestinians were much better before the advent of the PA and the signing of the Oslo Accords. They were not more prosperous in material terms, but they upheld the concept of “bread and dignity,” and launched a popular uprising that gained the respect of the entire world, laid bare the inhuman practices of the Occupation and put into question the very existence of an Israeli state.

That is why Western neo-colonialist minds devised a lifeline for it in the form of the Oslo Acords.

PA spokespersons have said that they will not submit to blackmail and that Jerusalem is not for sale, for however many billions of dollars. These are commendable words. But what really matters is the practical actions that the PA takes to counter these two stances: Israel’s, in passing legislation aimed at the ceding of any inch of Jerusalem or the West Bank settlements in any future peace deal; and Washington’s, in recognising the conquest and annexation of the Holy City as the Occupation state’s capital.

The one step the PA has taken is to invite the Palestine Central Council (PCC) to convene next week to devise a response to Netanyahu and Trump’s blackmail. Its spokesmen – such as chief negotiator Saeb Erekat – have also urged countries to move their PA-accredited embassies to East Jerusalem, as though they have a choice in the matter or would be free to do so. What kind of deficient thinking is this?

The PCC is supposed to be the intermediary body between the Palestine National Council (the Palestinian parliament-in-exile) and the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO). The latter’s mandate expired two decades ago, and the majority of its component factions – with the exception of Fatah and the Popular and Democratic Fronts (PFLP and DFLP) – long ago ceased to have any meaningful following among the Palestinian public.

Around half of the PCC’s membership has gone to meet its maker, and the other half are waiting their turn and are well past retirement age. Critical views are rarely aired, and are unwelcome on the occasions when they are, for no voice can be allowed to rise above that of the anointed leader Mahmoud Abbas.

Around a year ago, the PCC – meeting in the PA compound in Ramallah – took a headline-grabbing decision to halt security cooperation with Israel. The move was greeted with loud applause, as delegates congratulated each other on the PLO’s act of reassertion and on the resultant reversion to resistance to the occupation. But that decision remains a piece of paper in Abbas’ desk. Its practical impact was zero.

Declining US influence

The Palestinian people long ago lost confidence in the PA and its institutions and leadership.

They have been reduced to relying on Trump and his decisions to arouse them from the comatose condition that has afflicted them since the signing of the Oslo Accords in 1993, and to rid them of the PA that has been humiliating, subjugating and selling them illusions for the past 20 years.

Again, we reiterate that we fervently hope that Trump does not back down from his threats, and goes ahead and cuts off his poisoned chalice of aid to the PA.

That could deal a death blow to the US’ influence in the Middle East and perhaps the entire Islamic world, and signal the start of a new phase in which the Palestinians find their feet again and reunite around a platform of resistance and self-respect, under a different leadership capable of shouldering the historic responsibility.

https://5pillarsuk.com/2018/01/07/i-pray-that-the-us-cuts-off-aid-to-the-palestinians/

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Salaam

Another update :o

Egypt hosts 'told to convince viewers' over Jerusalem

A report by the New York Times has said that while Egypt's government was publicly condemning a US decision to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital, a state intelligence officer was asking influential TV hosts in the country to persuade their viewers to accept it.

The newspaper reported on Saturday that it had obtained audio recordings in which Ashraf al-Kholi, the intelligence officer, can be heard telling the hosts that Egypt, like its "Arab brothers, are denouncing this matter", but that "after that, this thing will become a reality".

"Palestinians can't resist and we don't want to go to war," added Kholi, according to the New York Times. "We have enough on our plate as you know."

The country's state Information Service' says the hosts deny reports that an intelligence officer had spoken to them.

It also says the article does not provide evidence that Ashraf al-Kholi is an officer with Egypt's Intelligence and it re-iterated that it's stance on Jerusalem has not changed.

US President Donald Trump recognised Jerusalem as Israel's capital on December 6 and said that he was beginning the process of moving the US embassy to the city.

The move prompted widespread condemnation from many leaders throughout the Middle East, including Egypt, as well as the United Nations.

On Sunday, Egypt denied the newspaper's report that it had asked local media to play down opposition to Trump's decision.

'How is Jerusalem different from Ramallah?'

According to the New York Times, Kholi made the phone calls to three well-known Egyptian talk show hosts, as well as an Egyptian actress.

Kholi reportedly suggested to the hosts that the Palestinians should be happy with the occupied West Bank city of Ramallah, home to the Palestinian Authority.

"How is Jerusalem different from Ramallah, really?" Kholi said in the four recordings, according to the New York Times.

"Concessions are a must and if we reach a concession whereby Jerusalem will be - Ramallah will be the capital of Palestine, to end the war and so no one else dies, then we would go for it."

One of the calls was made to host Azmi Megahed, who confirmed the conversation with Kholi to the New York Times.

Another call was allegedly with Mofid Fawzy, who the newspaper said denied that a conversation with Kholi had taken place. A third call was reportedly with Saeed Hassaseen, a TV host and member of parliament, who the New York Times said backed out of an interview on the issue. The fourth call was with Egyptian singer and actress Yousra, who could not be reached, the newspaper said.

According to the New York Times, Kholi called the reaction to the US Jerusalem decision "dangerous" and an "intifada issue".

"An intifada would not serve Egypt's national security interests because an intifada would revive the Islamists and Hamas," Kholi said.

In a statement on Sunday, Egypt's "State Information Service" refuted the New York Times report, saying two TV hosts mentioned in it no longer present any shows, while the two others mentioned in the stories had denied receiving any call.

It added that alleged leaks should not be a source of information on Egypt's stance on international issues.

"Egypt's positions are conveyed by the president, the foreign minister and in official statements," it said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/01/egypt-hosts-told-convince-viewers-jerusalem-180106181342706.html

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update on Jerusalem.



Update on the situation on Gaza



And finally on Bibi