Need help refuting malicious accusations against Islam?

[TDWT]

I figured this thread would be a better place to put this, I read this commentary that ibn hajar said and he stated this:

ذُرِّيَّتِكَ، فَقَالَ السَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكُمْ، فَقَالُوا: السَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكَ وَرَحْمَةُ اللَّهِ --، فَزَادُوهُ: وَرَحْمَةُ اللَّهِ، فَكُلُّ مَنْ يَدْخُلُ الجَنَّةَ عَلَى صُورَةِ آدَمَ، فَلَمْ يَزَلِ الخَلْقُ يَنْقُصُ حَتَّى الآنَ ")) قال ابن حجر في الفتح (قَوْلُهُ فَكُلُّ مَنْ يَدْخُلُ الْجَنَّةَ عَلَى صُورَةِ آدَمَ أَيْ عَلَى صِفَتِهِ وَهَذَا يَدُلُّ عَلَى أَنَّ صِفَاتِ النَّقْصِ مِنْ سَوَادٍ وَغَيْرِهِ تَنْتَفِي عِنْدَ دُخُولِ الْجَنَّةِ وَقَدْ تَقَدَّمَ بَيَانُ ذَلِكَ فِي بَابِ صِفَةِ الْجَنَّةِ))

I was wondering, can you clarify what he meant by blackness? This site was using this to try and say islam was racist, so can you explain this further?

@Huzaifah ibn Adam

[TDWT]

@Huzaifah ibn Adam, can you clarify?

[TDWT]

Bump

[greenhill]

What does it say? is there a translation of the quote?


:peace:

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[Scimitar]

it's not about racism.

The blackness is like a shadow, or darkness which surrounds the unbeliever. Whereas the believer reflects light - known in Arabic as "noor".

Scimi

[TDWT]

it's not about racism.

The blackness is like a shadow, or darkness which surrounds the unbeliever. Whereas the believer reflects light - known in Arabic as "noor".

Scimi

But the people of paradise are still going to be white skinned based on this right?(Not that I have an issue with it, just asking):

حدثنا يزيد، أخبرنا حماد بن سلمة، عن علي بن زيد، عن سعيد بن المسيب، عن أبي هريرة، عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم، قال: " يدخل أهل الجنة الجنة جردا، مردا، بيضا، جعادا، مكحلين، أبناء ثلاث وثلاثين، على خلق آدم، ستون ذراعا في عرض سبع أذرع

[Scimitar]

Ibn Hajar RA went to heaven? met the people? came back to tell us? well that's news to me. :D

Scimi

[TDWT]

no thats a hadith

[Scimitar]

Bro. in Islam there is no such thing as racism.

The question you ask "is there only white people in jannah" is irrelevant - and shows that you are playing to the racist narrative of those who ask such silly questions.

I would answer them simply - "there is no racism in Islam" and "white is not better than black and black is not better than white" and "he whose deeds are good is better than he whose deeds are not".

As for the whiteness mentioned in the text you posted - bro - think for a moment about the following:

A lot of what is described regarding the end times of this earth is allegorical - take for example the hadeeth of dajjal travelling on a white donkey whose ears are 40 cubits wide - this is an airplane - a load baring machine, likened to a donkey - a load baring animal.

Now - in case you didn't notice - the hadeeth is allegorical and not literal - and described something on this earth - not heaven. Did the people of the past believe Dajjal will travel on an actual white donkey? Who knows, possibly right? But we in this age have seen airplanes with wide wings, and they are always made to be painted white and then skinned after. We reognise this donkey from hadeeth as an airplane.

It is allegorical.

Now - the hadeeth about jannah - bro, have to be allegorical because no man can describe something "otherworldly" with their limited human senses. We are informed that in the next life - our bodies will be made new in a form unknown to us - WHY?

Why indeed.

Racism? Not even an issue.

I hope this contextualizes the question your non Muslims friends have issues with.

It is not an issue in Islam because it's not even relevant.

Scimi

[talibilm]

But the people of paradise are still going to be white skinned based on this right?(Not that I have an issue with it, just asking):

حدثنا يزيد، أخبرنا حماد بن سلمة، عن علي بن زيد، عن سعيد بن المسيب، عن أبي هريرة، عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم، قال: " يدخل أهل الجنة الجنة جردا، مردا، بيضا، جعادا، مكحلين، أبناء ثلاث وثلاثين، على خلق آدم، ستون ذراعا في عرض سبع أذرع

:sl:

I have not seen any reference in hadith about the colour of skin of the jannatis . But its repeated they will recognize each other and If a black man is white there ?

But its said some Prophets were black or towards black . But Black is also beautiful and its upto Allah the maker what ever he intends to make beautiful the colours becomes unimportant. some black birds with a little while are so cute Some whites are ugly to look.

So Only colour does not decide the beauty of anything or anyone


P.s @TDWT

Do not expect everyone here to know Arabic so quote a translation of any thing in Arabic

[Scimitar]

:sl:

I have not seen any reference in hadith about the colour of skin of the jannatis . But its repeated they will recognize each other and If a black man is white there ?

But its said some Prophets were black or towards black . But Black is also beautiful and its upto Allah the maker what ever he intends to make beautiful the colours becomes unimportant. some black birds with a little while are so cute Some whites are ugly to look.

So Only colour does not decide the beauty of anything or anyone


P.s @TDWT

Do not expect everyone here to know Arabic so quote a translation of any thing in Arabic

As a nail in the coffin of this thread premise - the ayah:

In that We will change your likenesses and produce you in that [form] which you do not know. (56/61)

Kinda puts the whole black/white argument in the bin. Where it belongs.

Scimi

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Bro Scimi

take for example the hadeeth of dajjal travelling on a white donkey whose ears are 40 cubits wide - this is an airplane

I would rather believe it is a very big donkey, for Allah all things are not only possible, they are easy. The Prophet Adam, was sixty cubits tall, not a problem. The Prophet Muhammad when he traveled from Makkah to Jerusalem with Buraq a winged horse, also not a problem. If Allah can create the universe and all life, why limit his abilities to the life we see today.

Blessings

Eric

[Scimitar]

Buraq relates to lightning - I find that interesting because he embarked upon something which travelled at the speed of light

At that time in history bro Eric, the fastest animal one could board was an horse - hence they likened it to an horse and claimed it had wings when no one saw it except for the prophet pbuh and what he described was allegorical

It is understood to be allegorical

You can believe in a big flying donkey - sure - but hey the only pigs I see flying are the police copters

I wonder how a large donkey will fly if not allegorical :)

Scimi

[TDWT]

:sl:

I have not seen any reference in hadith about the colour of skin of the jannatis . But its repeated they will recognize each other and If a black man is white there ?

But its said some Prophets were black or towards black . But Black is also beautiful and its upto Allah the maker what ever he intends to make beautiful the colours becomes unimportant. some black birds with a little while are so cute Some whites are ugly to look.

So Only colour does not decide the beauty of anything or anyone


P.s @TDWT

Do not expect everyone here to know Arabic so quote a translation of any thing in Arabic

I was wondering, do you know arabic?

[talibilm]

I was wondering, do you know arabic?

I had replied many times I do not know Arabic. But that does not deter anyone to clear such issues like you ask since its just a basic matter , which can be understood from the Allah given conscience and guidance about the Deen al Islam we follow.

So that's why I had reminded you couple of times to quote translation too. Do not think everyone is a scholar & holds mastery over Arabic here.

And some think ITS a must to understand Arabic to understand Islam which IMHO is not , though its the best to have A MASTERY over Arabic for those who want to understand the Noble Quran precisely . But Allah made NOBLE QURAN for all (all nations all languages ) so its not that anyone who does not Arabic cannot follow the right Islam .


And its also not those who know Arabic will understand the perfect Islam because if that was so Sam Shamoun, Anees Sharosh and many enemies of Islam will know Islam better but they do not , Proves, to understand Islam and follow it. we not only need knowledge but its most important to have the guidance of Allah which Allah gives to his righteous slaves and those who STRIVE to his path. Hope that clear your doubt that knowing ARABIC is not the only need to understand Islam . inshallah

[talibilm]

@TDWT

Your ref of a hadith through a PM shows that Jannatis will be entering white . Jazakallah khair for that since am noting this first time. But am yet to see from strong leading hadiths about that but still musnad ahmad cannot be denied if the translation was correct of what you had quoted .

This only means there will be something of a standard that all jannatis will be of medium age ( remember it like 33 ) and other qualities mentioned but labelling it as racist is ridiculous since white & black all are equal to Allah and Bilal who has the PRESTIGE of the first muazziin of Islam who was allowed to climb to the top of the sacred kaaba was a Black .

[talibilm]

Greetings and peace be with you Bro Scimi

I would rather believe it is a very big donkey, for Allah all things are not only possible, they are easy. The Prophet Adam, was sixty cubits tall, not a problem. The Prophet Muhammad when he traveled from Makkah to Jerusalem with Buraq a winged horse, also not a problem. If Allah can create the universe and all life, why limit his abilities to the life we see today.

Blessings

Eric

Each cubit of Adam could be like 1.5 meters as seen from the foot print of Adam at the Adam's peak in Sri Lanka. Bible mention of Adam walking in the seas ( they are deep) catching fish adds proof to this sixty cubit (about 90 meters) thought.

[Scimitar]

Each cubit of Adam could be like 1.5 meters

Assalaam alaikum bro,

A cubit is 1.5 feet, not 1.5 meters.

The cubit measurement is the length from elbow to fingertip. Standardised as 1.5 feet. (18 inches or 45 cm)

Just a correction.

Scimi

[talibilm]

Assalaam alaikum bro,

A cubit is 1.5 feet, not 1.5 meters.

The cubit measurement is the length from elbow to fingertip. Standardised as 1.5 feet. (18 inches or 45 cm)

Just a correction.

Scimi

:sl: wr wb bro

You are absolutely correct but I mean a Cubit of The Tallest Human Adam .

A foot is smaller than a cubit right ?

If so Adams foot measures about a 1.8 m (5 ft 11 in) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam's_Peak

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam's_Peak


...So cubit of Adam is bigger than what I guessed . No wonder Its said Adam went to Salam to those tall huge Angels once Allah put his ruh was put in his body Allahu aalam

[Scimitar]

the cubit measurement is given during the time of Nuh Alaihis salaam - where he was commanded to build the ark according to the specification Allah revealed to him. This is in the Old Testament Torah.

This is the earliest known usage for the measurement of cubit.

Nuh Alaihis salaam was not a giant.

His cubit measurement was approx 1.5 feet. |Same as ours.

After the ark landed and mankind began to spread across the world, the first nation state to be built was Babylon, and they used the same measurement of cubits - 1.5 feet.

Historically - the cubit is 1.5 feet.

We understand the phenomenal height of Adam alaihis salaam from the measurement of a cubit which is 1.5 feet (Adam Alaihis Salaam was 60 cubits in height hadeeth) Making his total height 90 feet.


With regard to your about Adams Peak - bro, that is hearsay.

There are hadeeth about the phenomenal landing of Adam on earth and the stronger narrations allude to him landing in Makkah or Dajnah - no Baudh (Adam's Peak) these later ideas were inserted from the period of ghazwa.

The Adams Peak in Sri Lanka is more commonly known and worshipped as an Hindu gods footprint - and across India - there are many giant footprints belonging to a whole variety of deities. Also brother, the Hindus have been experts at carving idols into rock formations since antiquity - mohenjo daro and other places are proof that they had immense skills - so carving out a footprint wouldn't really be a big deal.

Also, it makes no sense to claim Adams cubit was such and such a length because we do not meausre cubits that way - like I said, since ancient times, the cubit has been 1.5 feet.

Scimi

[talibilm]

the cubit measurement is given during the time of Nuh Alaihis salaam - where he was commanded to build the ark according to the specification Allah revealed to him. This is in the Old Testament Torah.

This is the earliest known usage for the measurement of cubit.

Nuh Alaihis salaam was not a giant.

His cubit measurement was approx 1.5 feet. |Same as ours.

After the ark landed and mankind began to spread across the world, the first nation state to be built was Babylon, and they used the same measurement of cubits - 1.5 feet.

Historically - the cubit is 1.5 feet.

We understand the phenomenal height of Adam alaihis salaam from the measurement of a cubit which is 1.5 feet (Adam Alaihis Salaam was 60 cubits in height hadeeth) Making his total height 90 feet.


With regard to your about Adams Peak - bro, that is hearsay.

There are hadeeth about the phenomenal landing of Adam on earth and the stronger narrations allude to him landing in Makkah or Dajnah - no Baudh (Adam's Peak) these later ideas were inserted from the period of ghazwa.

The Adams Peak in Sri Lanka is more commonly known and worshipped as an Hindu gods footprint - and across India - there are many giant footprints belonging to a whole variety of deities. Also brother, the Hindus have been experts at carving idols into rock formations since antiquity - mohenjo daro and other places are proof that they had immense skills - so carving out a footprint wouldn't really be a big deal.

Also, it makes no sense to claim Adams cubit was such and such a length because we do not meausre cubits that way - like I said, since ancient times, the cubit has been 1.5 feet.

Scimi

:sl:

Bro ,Thanks for your vivid explanation.

Can i kindly know your source how did and from where did you know the size of cubit of Prophet Noah (pbuh) was 1.5 foot ?

I conceive his height was NEVER the size of human beings of even during Madian Saleh (saudi ) period (which was much further from Noah and was just before Abraham (pbuh) i guess may be about 6000 years ) who used to carve houses (with tall entrances as seen today) from huge mountains like what Allah has mentioned in the noble Quran.

There are various theories of Adam descending to the world but even if the Srilankan Adams feet is just a fake but I still conceive Adams feet (who came much before Madian Saleh, Saudi and Petra , Jordan) should have been much longer. The length of Kabur of Prophet Harun , Aroun still appears to be a very lengthy one which depicts people even before just 3000 years were much taller so how about the height or size of our Humans about many many 10,000's years ?

Allahul aalam.

[Scimitar]

Bro, a simple exercise in sha Allah

If by your propagation that Adam was 60 cubits length from his own measurement - do you realise how disproportionate his body would be?

Let me explain.

I'm 6 foot tall, and a cubit is 1.5 feet - that makes me 4 cubits tall.

if Adam was 60 cubits from his own arm length bro - he aint human but a freak - and Allah did not create Adam to be a freak.

You understand?

Simple physics disproves your line of enquiry in sha Allah.

The better inference is logic.

Not this:

Because if a cubit is 1.5 meters - that means his arm length from elbow to fingertip is 1.5 meters and the rest of him is what? 60 meters tall?

Disproportionate measurement bro - do you see the error of your calculation?

His body would be too tall for his arms, and he would not be able to reach around himself - his mobility would be severely limited.

The best inference is the one from the historical archives - 1.5 feet is a cubit. And that cubit is post flood measurement survived from the time of Nuh Alaihis Salaam.

For the measurement of cubit - you can find it in the old testament torah.

Scimi

[talibilm]

@Scimitar

another theory of it being Sri Lanka was inferred from the thinking that Sub continent together with Srilanka was ONCE attached to Saudi so that does not negate any hadith if the hadith mentioned it as Saudi.


The so called faked videos of Giant skeleton being claimed found in Saudi could be true if Adam was 60 cubits. Allah has left signs for sure but the anti islamist Zionists confuse it with double records (or conceal it) is what I CONCLUDED from my analysis like in many instances like in the body of Pharaoh , Negus of Abbysisinia to an extent they even claimed Exodus of Moses never happened ONLY TO DISPROVE ISLAM.

From old testaments I could not deny or accept it as well as per the hadith but be cautiously watch full. (and I mean the OT as of 610-130 AD now its more defunct with incest stories about noble Prophet and more insertions my thread here elaborates it
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...+replace+Allah )

jazakallah khair

[Scimitar]

@Scimitar

another theory of it being Sri Lanka was inferred from the thinking that Sub continent together with Srilanka was ONCE attached to Saudi so that does not negate any hadith if the hadith mentioned it as Saudi.


The so called faked videos of Giant skeleton being claimed found in Saudi could be true if Adam was 60 cubits Allah has left signs but the anti islamist Zionists confuse it with double records (or conceal it) is what I CONCLUDED from my analysis like in many instances like in the body of Pharaoh , Negus of Abbysisinia to an extent they even claimed Exodus of Moses never happened ONLY TO DISPROVE ISLAM.

From old testaments I could not deny or accept it as well as per the hadith but be cautiously watch full.

jazakallah khair

Brother

I believe you have missed the point entirely

If you calculate the height of Adam from a cubit which measures from his own arm - then he would be a FREAK.

I showed you the math bro.

Let me try again in sha Allah.

A cubit is 1.5 feet ok?

I'm 6 foot tall.

How many cubits tall am I?

4.

The tallest man in the world has a ratio of 5 but his cubit is 21 inches so - in proportion to his own cubit measurement from his elbow to fingertip - his ratio is still 4 - not 5.

You are suggesting working out the cubit measurement from Adams own arm by calculating it is 1.5 meters - if the normal ratio is four - then even by that standard bro - he would have to be 6 meters in height - that's less than 20 feet height of Adam - IF - you go by your measurement and still make him appear normally proportioned.

But what you are suggesting is even more ridiculous.

You are suggesting that he is 90 feet tall while having arms that are only 1.5 meters in length (under 5 feet in length). A man having 5 foot long arms while having a 90 foot long body makes no sense my brother. His arms would be so short by your calculation that he would look disabled... that's why I posted the pic of the tyrannasuarus rex lol. You are proposing a disproportionate freak of an human being for Adam alaihis salaam by this suggestion.

You've not worked it out yourself my brother - do it - you will see the folly of your way in sha Allah.

Scimi

EDIT: if you are curious about the giants bro, just ask - a long time ago I looked into it for myself. In sha Allah I can share some of what I remember with you.

[talibilm]

Brother

I believe you have missed the point entirely

If you calculate the height of Adam from a cubit which measures from his own arm - then he would be a FREAK.

I showed you the math bro.

Let me try again in sha Allah.

A cubit is 1.5 feet ok?

I'm 6 foot tall.

How many cubits tall am I?

4.

The tallest man in the world has a ratio of 5 but his cubit is 21 inches so - in proportion to his own cubit measurement from his elbow to fingertip - his ratio is still 4 - not 5.

You are suggesting working out the cubit measurement from Adams own arm by calculating it is 1.5 meters - if the normal ratio is four - then even by that standard bro - he would have to be 6 meters in height - that's less than 20 feet height of Adam - IF - you go by your measurement and still make him appear normally proportioned.

But what you are suggesting is even more ridiculous.

You are suggesting that he is 90 feet tall while having arms that are only 1.5 meters in length (under 5 feet in length). A man having 5 foot long arms while having a 90 foot long body makes no sense my brother. His arms would be so short by your calculation that he would look disabled... that's why I posted the pic of the tyrannasuarus rex lol. You are proposing a disproportionate freak of an human being for Adam alaihis salaam by this suggestion.

You've not worked it out yourself my brother - do it - you will see the folly of your way in sha Allah.

Scimi

EDIT: if you are curious about the giants bro, just asked - a long time ago I looked into it for myself. In sha Allah I can share some of what I remember with you.

You are right bro , i did not check or work on your calculations at all as i had limited time (am also weak at Maths , :D:D ) since I believe firmly on hadith its 60 cubits .

Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 55 :: Hadith 543

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, Adam making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, "Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring." So, Adam Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, "As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi" (i.e. Peace and Allah's Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam's salutation the expression, 'Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,' Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam Adam(in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation ''.



If so taking a proportion of 1:6 (our heights ) his foot could be nearly 10 foot or 6 cubits ( is that right?) If the foot of so claimed of Adam in Sri Lanka if its not as proportionate to as said in the hadith then i will have to reject it as fake and it cannot be used to infer the size of a cubit of Adam's times.

The mistake has to be on our side but never on the hadiths .


So what is the length of Adam"s foot if his height was 60 cubits ?

bro, Do kindly share with us all about info about Giants, Skeletons.

[Scimitar]

Almost 17 feet is the length of his foot by the calculation that he is 60 cubits tall (90 feet), Allahu Alam the exact size but it would be around or just under 17 feet. the exact calculation i came up with was 16.875 feet which is 202.5 inches.

The way I came up with this measurement is as follows.

NOTE - the question you ask requires us to formulate the calculation by which we can determine the length of the Adamic cubit - not the classical cubit.

For this math to work - we actually have to calculate the length from Adam's Elbow to Fingertip - we have to find the Adamic cubit.

The reason why is because we are trying to determine the length of Adams foot - which requires us to understand proportions.

An human foot is exactly 3/4th the length of the distance between his elbow and middle fingertip - a personal cubit measurement.

A mans height is of 4 cubits from his own personal cubit size.

The size of an human foot is exactly 3/4ths the length of the arm from elbow to fingertip - 3/4th the size of a cubit. In this case - 3/4th the size of Adams cubit.

So I took 90 feet / 4 to get the length of the Adamic cubit, then found the 3/4th of that to get the length of foot size.

the math:

90/4=22.5 feet. - one Adamic cubit.

22.5/4X3=16.875 feet (202.5 inches) - one Adamic foot length.

Hope this helps in sha Allah.

bro, Do kindly share with us all about info about Giants, Skeletons.

In sha Allah. what in particular do you want to know bro?

Scimi

[talibilm]

@Scimitar

:sl:


bro, I would like to know your view about Giant skeleton videos , which claim to have been excavated in Saudi .

Though we have to defend the ancestors of Sahabas both Muhajireen and Ansars and even veil up their mistakes (as per hadith) but its the Saudi rulers and bureaucrats (do not know these are progeny of sahabas, Muhajireen and Ansars) have become puppets to Anti Islamists and they have cleared off artifacts of Nabi :saws: but have protected artifacts of Moses (pbuh) instead with a fence around and such idiotic actions (against the Noble Quran Where Allah says he protected body of Pharaoh and other ruins AS A SIGN to the later generations) make those people claim that Mecca did not exist or Prophet Muhammad :saws: never existed.

[Scimitar]

wa'alykum salaam warahmatullah.

OK bro, in sha Allah tomorrow I will post something here related to your question.

For now, it's time to begin my day in sha Allah.

Scimi

[praisetoallah]

Islam is not a racists religion. Only extremists are