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SemiraE
02-18-2017, 10:58 AM
Hello, I am sorry if this is not the place to ask this but here I go.

I am a 22 years old Christian living in Europe. I met a Muslim man. We bonded very fast without realizing it...but we didn't have any sex other than some occasional kissing....

heis married since 10 years and has 2 kids, now he wants me to marry him in Islam. What will that mean for me? But for him? Considering I will be his 2nd wife...

I mention that I won't change my religion and his wife will have no knowledge about this marriage.

about the religion... it's not that I don't want to but it's takes time to learn about a whole different world and We don't want to commit haram and have relations before being married

What am I risking if I accept?

and I know I seem like a horrible person....but please just restrain yourself to advices

thank you!
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sister herb
02-18-2017, 11:53 AM
Hello to you

Welcome to forum and thanks for sharing with us this interesting question.

I don´t think you are horrible person at all so no need to worry about it in here. I am sure many think like I in this matter.

You are planning to marry Muslim man and become his the second wife? Ok, Islam allows polygamy. Note that in Islam, if man takes more than one wife, he is obliged to treat both his wives equally. If he can´t, he shouldn´t marry with more than one. Also he has responsible to take care about his children. What it takes from you? You better not to be jealous if he still loves his the first wife, contacts her or helps her economically. He has right to have intimacy with her too.

According the Islamic law, Shariah, polygamy is ok. But polygamy is illegal in Europe. So by law your marriage isn´t valid. And here start your problems.

"A Muslim living in a non-Muslim society is obligated to follow the laws. We cannot say that their laws are contrary to the Shari`ah, so we have to follow the Shari`ah. Taking a second wife is not a necessary requirement; there is no mandatory duty on the Muslim to have a second wife.

If a person has become a resident or a citizen in a European country, it is a condition for him to abide by its laws. When a Muslim man in a European country sticks to not having a second wife, it is like giving up a particular right according to his own Shari`ah. The person who has a second wife could be subject to criminal punishment."

Source: http://www.islamawareness.net/Polygamy/fatwa001.html

What I advice you to do is to meet some local imam and discuss about this matter with him.

Note also that my comment was just one way to see this matter. Here might be other and different opinions too.
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keiv
02-18-2017, 12:19 PM
Hate to be blunt here but, you're helping this man, who has a family, cheat on his wife. The fact that he's doing it in the first place is wrong, but the fact that you're helping him while knowing that his wife is oblivious of the situation is wrong as well.

My advice would be to stay away from this guy. The fact that he's doing all this behind his wife's back just goes to show you how sleazy he is. There is nothing Islamic about what he's doing. You're still young. You're thinking about now and not the future.
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SemiraE
02-18-2017, 12:29 PM
As I know he is not obligated to inform his wife about it. He's gonna marry me in Islam not on paper at the city hall.... so I don't see your point here....
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SemiraE
02-18-2017, 12:35 PM
Can I talk with an imam if I'm not Muslim ?
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sister herb
02-18-2017, 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
Can I talk with an imam if I'm not Muslim ?
Of course you can.
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azc
02-18-2017, 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
Hello, I am sorry if this is not the place to ask this but here I go. I am a 22 years old Christian living in Europe. I met a Muslim man. We bonded very fast without realizing it...but we didn't have any sex other than some occasional kissing....heis married since 10 years and has 2 kids, now he wants me to marry him in Islam. What will that mean for me? But for him? Considering I will be his 2nd wife...I mention that I won't change my religion and his wife will have no knowledge about this marriage.about the religion... it's not that I don't want to but it's takes time to learn about a whole different world and We don't want to commit haram and have relations before being marriedWhat am I risking if I accept?and I know I seem like a horrible person....but please just restrain yourself to advicesthank you!
If he is serious for you then he must accept you as your wife before his family and relatives. He must have courage to stand by you in all circumstances.
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sister herb
02-18-2017, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
As I know he is not obligated to inform his wife about it. He's gonna marry me in Islam not on paper at the city hall.... so I don't see your point here....
Note that also he has no right to lie to his the first wife. If he isn´t going to tell about your marriage to his the first wife (or to his relatives - if his relatives know about new marriage, it´s only a matter of time when also his the first wife knows), I would ask why not.
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keiv
02-18-2017, 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
As I know he is not obligated to inform his wife about it. He's gonna marry me in Islam not on paper at the city hall.... so I don't see your point here....
- You guys aren't married
- This guy is leaving his wife and kids at home while he is secretly away making out with another girl
- What do you think will happen to his wife and kids once they find out about your secret marriage? Will he leave them for you? Leave you for them? Will his wife stick around? Will he be able to support both of you (including the children) financially?
- This is what I mean by you thinking about the 'now' and not the future. Have you thought it all through or is this all being done on a whim because he charmed you?

I'm not trying to be mean. I just want you to see the bigger picture here.


Originally Posted by SemiraE
Can I talk with an imam if I'm not Muslim ?
I would highly recommend that you do.
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SemiraE
02-18-2017, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by keiv
- You guys aren't married
- This guy is leaving his wife and kids at home while he is secretly away making out with another girl
- What do you think will happen to his wife and kids once they find out about your secret marriage? Will he leave them for you? Leave you for them? Will his wife stick around? Will he be able to support both of you (including the children) financially?
- This is what I mean by you thinking about the 'now' and not the future. Have you thought it all through or is this all being done on a whim because he charmed you?

I'm not trying to be mean. I just want you to see the bigger picture here.




I would highly recommend that you do.
No worries I get you.
We don't plan on making the marriage serious, like we won't leave together and he will not support me in any way but being besides me if you know what I mean.
We know each other sine 2 months, I don't want him to leave his wife or kids and I don't plan on converting or any other major change regarding me and him for now.

I need to know this man first, and I can't if we are not intimate and if he thinks he's doing haram even bough I know he is already just by talking with me for so long already leaving aside the making out part.

he married young and I am the first one he does this with since then.
He will never leave aside his children and I don't want him to do that. His wife is extremely jealous to the point she will kill herself without thinking about her kids if she would find out about me. And since this marriage won't be a serious one...I don't think it's a good idea to tell her.

his father was the one who told him he should marry me after speaking with a local imam.

so this marriage will be just so we can get to know each other and not committing a major sin.

I am am not very pleased about it but...I do like him very much and he likes me. It's not about oriental charming here...
we are serious people coming from a business environment The age difference is of -5 years
I came here for an outside opinion.

i don't know what will happen in the future but for now...

I need to know what are my options. What will change if I do this and what will the consequences be. And how is the process of this marriage...what I have to do and so on...

hope this picture is big enough for you to understand better and maybe give me some advice?
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Umm♥Layth
02-18-2017, 08:13 PM
You are selling yourself short and he is going to end up using you and ultimately hurting you badly, especially if there's kids involved in the future. You will live as a second secret wife with no Islamic rights and his first wife will likely always come first.

Under no circumstances should you accept to support yourself, even if you can because you are basically giving him a free pass to just come around when he wants sex and he KNOWS THIS. He is playing you for a fool. I've seen this happen so many times, it's disgusting.

Tell him to go home and fix his marital problems and take proper care of his marriage. Stay far away from him. :facepalm: If he is touching you in any way shape or form, he is not following Islam, and a man like that cannot and will not be fair to his wives. I cannot stress that enough dear. Sorry to be so blunt, but I'm tired of seeing my womenfolk getting used and abused all the time.
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sabazaz
02-19-2017, 05:46 AM
I think if he is serious in this relationship he should first give respect to you by acknowledging her wife that he is marrying you . This thing will be very complicated later . And in the end when things get open. He will have choice to keep any one. He will leave u by saying that this marriage is not valid in Europe blah blah...
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Simple_Person
02-19-2017, 06:08 AM
Sister, my ONLY advice is, get a hold of your heart. It is dragging you along and thus you cannot think straight. This whole love stuff is sickening, as it doesn't give you the ability to analyze the situation based on logic, rationality and reason.

I am a guy and if you need to have advice regarding another man, you need another guy's perspective of the situation, as we men know what is lurking to take us over and control us. This guy is here ONLY to use you. If he had some dignity he would NEVER cheat on his wife. This is NO Islam whatsoever. This is not even Christianity. When one cheats on his wife, you can know that you will also become wrinkled and "ugly" on the outside for him in a couple of years. He is not interested in you as a human being with a wonderful personality..all he is after is your body. When you also become old and ugly for his taste, he will search further as he has done this with his current wife.

The mentality of these guys is sickening.

I cannot make the decision for you. That is all up to you. However know that if you still take this path and you end up as we are saying you will ending up. You cannot blame that guy. You cannot blame God. You cannot blame Christianity. You cannot blame your family. You cannot blame Islam. You can ONLY blame yourself.

If you are hungry and somebody gives you food to eat. You decide to not eat despite being hungry, you are yourself to blame nobody else. So we give you food (STRONG advice), if you decide to not think rationally and follow (NOT eat the food) this STRONG advice, then you are on your own.

Peace
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Muslimaah2
02-19-2017, 06:40 AM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Sister, my ONLY advice is, get a hold of your heart. It is dragging you along and thus you cannot think straight. This whole love stuff is sickening, as it doesn't give you the ability to analyze the situation based on logic, rationality and reason.

I am a guy and if you need to have advice regarding another man, you need another guy's perspective of the situation, as we men know what is lurking to take us over and control us. This guy is here ONLY to use you. If he had some dignity he would NEVER cheat on his wife. This is NO Islam whatsoever. This is not even Christianity. When one cheats on his wife, you can know that you will also become wrinkled and "ugly" on the outside for him in a couple of years. He is not interested in you as a human being with a wonderful personality..all he is after is your body. When you also become old and ugly for his taste, he will search further as he has done this with his current wife.

The mentality of these guys is sickening.

I cannot make the decision for you. That is all up to you. However know that if you still take this path and you end up as we are saying you will ending up. You cannot blame that guy. You cannot blame God. You cannot blame Christianity. You cannot blame your family. You cannot blame Islam. You can ONLY blame yourself.

If you are hungry and somebody gives you food to eat. You decide to not eat despite being hungry, you are yourself to blame nobody else. So we give you food (STRONG advice), if you decide to not think rationally and follow (NOT eat the food) this STRONG advice, then you are on your own.

Peace
Assalamualaikum brother,


The situation that I m in, my husband is not using me for his bodily needs. He is taking complete financial care of me n my kids. Yes but to spare his love/ lust( he can't love anybody if he can't love his wife) and money he has quite many options. I have two small kids whom I can't leave with a person like him plus I don't have financial strength or parents support to upbring my kids. He has recorded my calls so he knows that I was indulged in shirk. But he has been cheating on me ever since I know him for 8 years before our marriage.. I don't know really what to do. I m already wrinkled and trashed from within. Also he is frustrated about what I have done to him. ( If he can't b mine physically then none else can own him) he is more frustrated from me. The magician refused to reverse that thing and says people come to me and then they ask to reverse the done but after sometime they again ask to do the same thing again. I m in the middle of nowhere. I really need peace. My life can't continue like this.
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Simple_Person
02-19-2017, 07:14 AM
Originally Posted by Muslimaah2
Assalamualaikum brother,


The situation that I m in, my husband is not using me for his bodily needs. He is taking complete financial care of me n my kids. Yes but to spare his love/ lust( he can't love anybody if he can't love his wife) and money he has quite many options. I have two small kids whom I can't leave with a person like him plus I don't have financial strength or parents support to upbring my kids. He has recorded my calls so he knows that I was indulged in shirk. But he has been cheating on me ever since I know him for 8 years before our marriage.. I don't know really what to do. I m already wrinkled and trashed from within. Also he is frustrated about what I have done to him. ( If he can't b mine physically then none else can own him) he is more frustrated from me. The magician refused to reverse that thing and says people come to me and then they ask to reverse the done but after sometime they again ask to do the same thing again. I m in the middle of nowhere. I really need peace. My life can't continue like this.
Sister, your biggest problem is your obsession with your husband. You want things to go how you want things to go, not how things go as they are destined to go. To give you a example. When you pour some water on the ground and leave it be, it will flow the easiest way down. It will NOT go as for example how YOU want it to go. This life is the same, we only are carried through it it not knowing where it will bring us or what situation we will face. I have read your topic last night, but i decided to not reply to it, as many other brothers and sisters already commented on it.

However, i guess Allah(swt) made it so, that i have to reply to your problem. As this is what i mean with sometimes it cannot go as we want it. I did NOT want to reply to it, but it is NOT up to me what i want or not want, Allah(swt) made you reply on my comment in this topic that i cannot decide to "ignore" it. So Allah(swt) chooses also my path.

You have NO and i mean ABSOLUTELY NO trust in Allah(swt). You THINK you control everything, but the ONLY control you and i have is the choice Allah(swt) gives us. Do you choose good or do you choose bad? Nothing else.

Rasullah(saws) has said that what kind of spouse we have to choose to marry. In case of sisters, they have to choose a spouse that has good character and practices his deen accordingly. This was your first biggest mistake and you can only blame yourself. As you yourself said that you and him already committed sin before marrying one another. So don't be surprised that your husband is like this, as you have not followed Islam properly to have a successful marriage.

Because you are obsessed with him, you are capable of all sort of things. I mean doing even shirk by using black magic says two things. You have committed shirk and thus left Islam and your husband has very weak imaan, or else it would have no effect on people with strong imaan as far as i know. So your marriage already was based on .."yeah we are Muslim"..that is enough type of mentality you could almost say.

When one marries a spouse ..in other words completes his or her deen, the connection between you and him or him and you is Allah(swt). When your spouse dies, you know he is not death, but has returned to Allah(swt). However, this connection it seems you do not have. You are so to say emotionally directly attached to your husband instead first to Allah(swt) and then through Allah to your husband. If you would have emotionally attached to your husband through Allah. Than you would have easily let him(your husband) go. It is NOT your husband who takes care of you. It is Allah. Allah gives you food to eat, Allah gives you shelter, Allah gives you children, Allah gives you eyes to see, air to breath, tongue to speak. EVERYTHING is because of Allah. That Allah(swt) let your husband do what he wanted to do, is NOT Allah(swt) fault, it is YOUR fault. You married him and it was YOUR choice as any real practicing sister or brother would have already said that that guy wasn't a good choice to marry.

So the question is, what now?

- Stop this nonsense this instance..the whole shirk stuff, as you want things to go how you want it to go. It is Allah(swt) who decides how things should go (destiny). Give up your whole obsession with your husband.
- Second thing, renew your Islam, as you currently are NOT a Muslim.
- Third thing, make genuinely tubaw (repentance).
- Fourth thing, Allah(swt) will take care of you even if you might think everything will head towards bad. Never think it will head towards bad. I mean you have committed shirk YET Allah(swt) has NOT ordained till now that you should die. This is ALSO part of his mercy so you have time to make tubaw.
- Let things go as they are destined to go, like water going its own way. Surrender your control as Allah(swt) is the One in control.

If your husband stays with you and stops doing all those stuff..then he stays with you..if your husband does not stay with you..then he does not stay with you. If your husband still commits adultery with other women then divorce him.

Surrender to Allah(swt) and say to Him i give up as You are in charge and i know You do not bring any harm to your servants if they decide to follow Your path.

BTW: Do not go to that magician anymore. So also not to "undo" as you still believe they have the power, however they have NO power. It is Allah(swt) who is permitting them to do those stuff.

Also read your own topic as many brothers and sisters are giving good advice regarding tubaw.

Peace and take care.
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Shamnadanu
02-19-2017, 09:40 AM
Above answer looks good.
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sister herb
02-19-2017, 11:33 AM
The things which should ring the alarm bells are:

- "We don't plan on making the marriage serious"


In Islam marriage is a serious thing which is meant for the life time (yes, divorce is possible but it´s not recommendable).

It seems to me that he is trying to justify a close relationship with you as masking it as "Islamic marriage". Marriage for fun (or sex or "get to know each others") is not what in Islam marriage should means. It is a serious relationship and its purpose is the creation of family - just like in Christianity. Now it seems to be a western-style common-law marriage.

- "His wife is extremely jealous to the point she will kill herself without thinking about her kids if she would find out about me. And since this marriage won't be a serious one...I don't think it's a good idea to tell her."

No serious purpose for marriage, just spend some time with husband of other woman. This is called as cheating, not marriage. This man may feel it is a marriage if imam is involved with the process but to you? Not serious?

This kind of marriage sounds like those temporary marriages of shias. But they aren´t Islamic marriages at all. This man is however a Sunni Muslim, right?
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Shamnadanu
02-19-2017, 12:16 PM
Actually this sister is looking for fun ...look there are millions of people who feel deppressed and staying single due to not finding anybody to love them.Look for someone like that who values good family life and take care of you and family forever.
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noraina
02-19-2017, 04:41 PM
Assalamu alaykum,

It's important to understand that if in most European countries you enter into a marriage as a second wife, it is not recognised legally. Meaning, you have *no* rights under the law and are at the mercy of this man.

And, sadly, many Muslim men pull out the 'Oh but polygamy is halal' card. They're so keen to follow this 'voluntary' practise of Islam without following the 'fardh' or compulsory duties of Islam. For example, it is compulsory for a Muslim to have no contact with the opposite gender outside of marriage, and to respect the rights of his wife.

And if a man cannot uphold the compulsory aspects of his religion, how can he be expected to honourably uphold that parts which are voluntary for him - such as taking on a second wife.

I understand this may be hard to hear as you have feelings for this man, but please do not fall into this trap. He seems far from sincere and reliable, and just because he puts an 'Islamic' perspective on it, it does not mean that his outward religiosity reflects his inner character or personality. Definitely protect yourself, sister, as you're worth so much more, in'sha'Allah.
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Kiro
02-19-2017, 07:49 PM
A man who is behind his wife's back is probably not a man of good character.

What if that was your sister? Mother? Or daughter?

Would you like it for them?
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Scimitar
02-19-2017, 08:24 PM
The Qur'an mentions marrying 2, 3 or 4 - IF - you can be fair and just between them

How is getting married in secret being fair and just?

You did the right thing joining the forum. Smart move. :)

Learn from here, what it is that he is asking you to do in relation to real Islam, and not his version of it, which as far as I can see, is very questionable.

Scimi
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M.I.A.
02-19-2017, 10:05 PM
jim jefferies.. the Australian comedian.. says,

when Australia legalised prostitution the divorce rate dropped by 8%..

i would think if they allowed polygamy, devorce rates would drop by at least twice as much.

...and by they... i mean first wives.

*runs away*
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Eric H
02-19-2017, 10:10 PM
Greetings and peace be with you SemiraE;

His wife is extremely jealous to the point she will kill herself without thinking about her kids if she would find out about me.
Do you want to be responsible for this woman's death? Women are incredibly intuitive, and something will lead her to think that her husband is cheating.

And since this marriage won't be a serious one...I don't think it's a good idea to tell her.
Ok, so you don't want to be responsible for this woman's death, so don't cheat with her husband. This goes against both Islam and Christianity, and it even goes against the law of the land, it is called adultery.

I am a Christian, and I have not read anything from my Muslim brothers and sisters, that could justify what you are trying to do.

Trust in God, the right single man is out there.

May you be a blessing to those you love and care for.

Eric
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sister herb
02-19-2017, 10:32 PM
Helpful discussion: https://www.islamicboard.com/family-...ml#post2949751
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Finding MEMO
02-19-2017, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by semirae
as i know he is not obligated to inform his wife about it. He's gonna marry me in islam not on paper at the city hall.... So i don't see your point here....
edited
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Finding MEMO
02-20-2017, 02:28 AM
[QUOTE=Finding MEMO;2949787]

Firstly great initiative on your part by seeking knowledge. Clearly you sound like a woman who would like to decipher the facts about Islam.

So I will try my best to explain:
In Islam you need to DECLARE your marriage.
This man does NOT need his wife's permission BUT he needs to INFORM her of his intentions to take a second wife.
How else is it possible to treat you both equally? Where is the logic in that?

How would you like to be in a relationship with a man and be deceived? In any religion?

It's the wife's ISLAMIC & human right to stay in that marriage or leave.

Imagine if that was you?

We are ALL answerable to Allah Swt especially for any pain we cause others.

Please don't accept one part of Islam and then confuse other unethical behaviour as ISLAM because it suits you.

Subhan'Allah Islam is JUST people are NOT.

This man should inform his first wife IF he is serious about you.
Otherwise sadly - he will do the exact same thing to you one day.

His moral compass simply speaks volumes about his character.

You deserve only the best please don't settle for anything less.
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SemiraE
02-20-2017, 07:09 AM
Thank you to all for your advice!

I am not a bad person neither I want to be one. Knowledge is power and as I said it's not like I want this I was just asking for opinions ergo advice.

I will still talk with an Imam to get a opinion from a specialist if I can call it like that.

And god forgive me if I did something wrong again or if I bothered someone with my seeking.
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Umm♥Layth
02-20-2017, 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
Thank you to all for your advice!

I am not a bad person neither I want to be one. Knowledge is power and as I said it's not like I want this I was just asking for opinions ergo advice.

I will still talk with an Imam to get a opinion from a specialist if I can call it like that.

And god forgive me if I did something wrong again or if I bothered someone with my seeking.
You didn't bother anyone :) and nobody is judging you. It is good that you did ask. Please keep in mind that the imam will only know whatever he is told. If you or him MAKE it sound like you relationship is halal (permissible), which it is not, then he will go based on that. He will also be a human who will have his own bias, I've seen imams encourage marriage between young adults who have a relationship behind their parents back...it is outrageous.

Look, at the end of the day, It's very simple to just look in the mirror and reflect without trying to justify any of it. You know if it is wrong or right. If you are conflicted about it, then it shows what your natural inclination is. :)
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SemiraE
02-20-2017, 10:22 AM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
You didn't bother anyone :) and nobody is judging you. It is good that you did ask. Please keep in mind that the imam will only know whatever he is told. If you or him MAKE it sound like you relationship is halal (permissible), which it is not, then he will go based on that. He will also be a human who will have his own bias, I've seen imams encourage marriage between young adults who have a relationship behind their parents back...it is outrageous.

Look, at the end of the day, It's very simple to just look in the mirror and reflect without trying to justify any of it. You know if it is wrong or right. If you are conflicted about it, then it shows what your natural inclination is. :)
I will be the only one talking with the imam, so all he will know will be my own mind. He advised me to talk with the imam actually and he did not tell me which one. I am actually travelling a few hundred km to see an imam from another city that I know for sure he doesn't know the man in question so I can really get an outside opinion. I do know it's wrong what I did until now even...and I am very sorry about it...but sometimes...the heart wants what the heart wants and you can't really control it. BUT that doesn't mean you have to walk on corpses for it...
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Finding MEMO
02-20-2017, 10:33 AM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
I will be the only one talking with the imam, so all he will know will be my own mind. He advised me to talk with the imam actually and he did not tell me which one. I am actually travelling a few hundred km to see an imam from another city that I know for sure he doesn't know the man in question so I can really get an outside opinion. I do know it's wrong what I did until now even...and I am very sorry about it...but sometimes...the heart wants what the heart wants and you can't really control it. BUT that doesn't mean you have to walk on corpses for it...
Sister It's great Subhan'Allah that you have your own mind.

'The heart wants what the heart wants' we are all human. This strong emotion governs us but when the honeymoon period is over...

You will see clearer but sadly the damage will be done. If this guy truly wants to do right by you then he needs to give you both EQUAL rights.

No one is judging you for asking the correct moral questions but it's sadly apparent this guy is trying find a loophole to abuse your trust.

You wouldn't wish that for anyone and like I said before you shouldn't settle for less.

Islam empowers you if you have the correct knowledge & intentions.
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SemiraE
02-20-2017, 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by Finding MEMO
Sister It's great Subhan'Allah that you have your own mind.

'The heart wants what the heart wants' we are all human. This strong emotion governs us but when the honeymoon period is over...

You will see clearer but sadly the damage will be done. If this guy truly wants to do right by you then he needs to give you both EQUAL rights.

No one is judging you for asking the correct moral questions but it's sadly apparent this guy is trying find a loophole to abuse your trust.

You wouldn't wish that for anyone and like I said before you shouldn't settle for less.

Islam empowers you if you have the correct knowledge & intentions.
I am not much about equal rights with his wife. I do not seek financial support or anything like that. I seek equality with him actually.
I am european and I've been raised and thought to be extremely independent and have my own money and free will. I do not know obedience and I will not be a pet but a equal partner for someone.

Maybe you can't understand because you have no knowledge about this and you have another way of living... but yes this seems like settling for less and I am very much aware of it!
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Finding MEMO
02-20-2017, 12:01 PM
Just to clarify - I have been raised both to be extremely independent and have my own money. You don't have to be European to own that thinking.

I never doubted your intentions in fact as another woman I was rooting for moral equality.
Islam, Christianity and any other religion encourages you to be a good human first.

Go with the simplicity of that, the question of being a second wife is fine providing the man in question follows Islam!
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Finding MEMO
02-20-2017, 12:06 PM
QUOTE:
'Maybe you can't understand because you have no knowledge about this and you have another way of living... but yes this seems like settling for less and I am very much aware of it!'

[emoji5] I have no words except that I'm trying not to laugh.

I'm not going to bore you with the details of my life except that self respect is priceless.
Sister you are being manipulated.

You say you don't want to be a pet?
Your acting like a ignorant lamb waiting to be slaughtered.

Islam protects human rights please don't let humans distort it.
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sister herb
02-20-2017, 12:12 PM
Note that some of us whose have answered to this thread are also Europeans, included I for example. We know very well European lifestyle and it´s values when it goes to marriage things.
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SemiraE
02-20-2017, 12:45 PM
Do not take as a personal attack what I said, this is strictly about me and my opinion. I didn't say my way of living is better or yours is trash!

Maybe pet was a inappropriate word but it goes with obedience...

I get your advices and I am taking them in consideration giving the fact that you're honestly maybe the only ones I can talk to right now.

So if I said something to offend you I am very sorry.
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Finding MEMO
02-20-2017, 12:59 PM
No offence taken, only intelligent people seek knowledge.

The knowledge they receive may not be easy to digest but don't let your heart rule your head.

Protect yourself.

There is a beautiful Hadith in Islam:
One day Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) noticed a Bedouin leaving his camel without tying it and he asked the Bedouin, “Why don’t you tie down your camel?” The Bedouin answered, “I put my trust in Allah.” The Prophet then said, “Tie your camel first, then put your trust in Allah” (At-Tirmidhi).

Sometimes we can very easily forget that we have to do our bit in our endeavours as well; effort and struggle is required from us if we truly want to achieve or attain something…….. (A reminder for myself first and foremost)
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noraina
02-20-2017, 01:03 PM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
Do not take as a personal attack what I said, this is strictly about me and my opinion. I didn't say my way of living is better or yours is trash!

Maybe pet was a inappropriate word but it goes with obedience...

I get your advices and I am taking them in consideration giving the fact that you're honestly maybe the only ones I can talk to right now.

So if I said something to offend you I am very sorry.
None of us are offended, and I am so glad you came to this forum for advice. In'sha'Allah we were able to help.

It's good to keep in mind that you came here as you weren't sure if what you were doing was the right thing. And, as long as we don't stifle it's voice, our conscience is a very powerful 'indicator' telling us what is right or wrong, a kind of innate moral compass. So if what you are doing doesn't sit quite well with your heart, or you find yourself repeatedly questioning yourself, then that's the answer within itself :).

And whatever one's ethnicity, European or not, justice is a concept which echoes across all cultures and religions. And that man was doing a grave injustice towards you, as you are worth so much more, as I've said.
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tuba
02-20-2017, 01:12 PM
Assalamoalaikum sister, welcome to the forum. :)

Going straight to your point, let me tell you, in islam, if a man has more than one wife, he is to treat each one of them EQUALLY. And equally doesn't just mean just giving equal time, equal money , etc etc .. Equally also means that in your heart, you must have equal amount of love for both wives. Lets just be true to ourselves and true to Allah swt. Is it possible?

We are not perfect like our prophets. We are full of mistakes. It is just not possible to love two wives equally. Allah told men to have more than one wife , He also knows that they cannot treat them equally.

Also , it is forbidden in islam to marry a non muslim. So just remember if you go forward to marryng him as a Christian and that too , become a wife in secret, just have the possibility of him leaving in future for the same reasons he agreed to before. Let me tell you, you might think he is not like other guys , he won't cheat and blah blah blah.. :) ( i have been there too )

And since four marriages are allowed, and he wants to marry you without telling his first wife, also have the possibility of him marrying someone else tomorrow, without telling you. Its plain cheating. Men tend to use the rights allah swt has granted them , only to suite their needs. They refuse to follow others sunnah.
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Umm♥Layth
02-20-2017, 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
I am not much about equal rights with his wife. I do not seek financial support or anything like that. I seek equality with him actually.
I am european and I've been raised and thought to be extremely independent and have my own money and free will. I do not know obedience and I will not be a pet but a equal partner for someone.

Maybe you can't understand because you have no knowledge about this and you have another way of living... but yes this seems like settling for less and I am very much aware of it!
That's exactly why he is so interested in you. Because your are self sufficient and don't need anything from him. In Islam, men are given the responsibility to maintain their household and that is why marrying is such a big deal. A man cannot mary or have the pleasure of a woman's company if he can't provide for her, and there is MUCH wisdom behind that. What man wouldn't want a woman who fends for herself? He can take her and leave her when he wants! You will most definitely won't be getting any sort of equality from him. I am an independent business woman by the way, and my husband still has to provide for the household. That is true equity because women have been given other responsibilities by God which come before making money :)
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SemiraE
02-20-2017, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
That's exactly why he is so interested in you. Because your are self sufficient and don't need anything from him. In Islam, men are given the responsibility to maintain their household and that is why marrying is such a big deal. A man cannot mary or have the pleasure of a woman's company if he can't provide for her, and there is MUCH wisdom behind that. What man wouldn't want a woman who fends for herself? He can take her and leave her when he wants! You will most definitely won't be getting any sort of equality from him. I am an independent business woman by the way, and my husband still has to provide for the household. That is true equity because women have been given other responsibilities by God which come before making money :)

Now I get it! very enlightening answer... THANK YOU!
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Umm♥Layth
02-20-2017, 03:04 PM
I'm glad I could help with some clarity. It is very common for a foreign Muslim man to take on a European or american woman as a second wife because women in these countries are raised to be self sufficient, so she automatically assumes she will provide her share for her expenses and they go along with it without ever offering to fulfill their duties. In my first marriage, I handed over my full check and when I took time off after giving birth, he started to harass me about getting a job. :hmm: That is a common story.

My husband now doesn't ask me for a penny even though I make my own income. He purposely and dutifully abides by our religion, Alhamdullilah. He was born and raised in North America, so this isn't about cultural norms, it is about obeying what God has asked of us :) You want the man you commit to, to be honorable and trustworthy, not trying to cut corners and being shady, you know?
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Simple_Person
02-20-2017, 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
I'm glad I could help with some clarity. It is very common for a foreign Muslim man to take on a European or american woman as a second wife because women in these countries are raised to be self sufficient, so she automatically assumes she will provide her share for her expenses and they go along with it without ever offering to fulfill their duties. In my first marriage, I handed over my full check and when I took time off after giving birth, he started to harass me about getting a job. :hmm: That is a common story.

My husband now doesn't ask me for a penny even though I make my own income. He purposely and dutifully abides by our religion, Alhamdullilah. He was born and raised in North America, so this isn't about cultural norms, it is about obeying what God has asked of us :) You want the man you commit to, to be honorable and trustworthy, not trying to cut corners and being shady, you know?
I think many women (Muslim reverts), as you in your first marriage, didn't really dig in about whole marriage boundaries. Many feel lonely and thus just want to marry ..i ASSUME. Then the outcome comes with such shady guys taking the advantage from you, while not being permitted to do such a thing.

Although for me, born in the Middle East and now lived majority of my life in a western country, is the whole dilemma of sisters mostly obsessed with their culture. However i don't want to marry a western sister either, but also not one of my own culture as many of them ..their heart is mostly filled with cultural habits. Many believe that it is THEIR JOB to be a "slave" in a household and not talk or have a opinion. I want a wife that sets me on my place if i do something wrong so i can learn from it. A western sister on the other hand is also too much the other direction. So BIG dilemma.

For now just staying single as i can work more on myself and get rid of bad habits. If in this life is destined for me to get married alhamdulillah, if it is not destined also alhamdulillah. As both situations bring different blessings.
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mkusak
02-21-2017, 06:31 AM
You will meet Islam inshaallah :)
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aaj
02-21-2017, 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by tuba
Going straight to your point, let me tell you, in islam, if a man has more than one wife, he is to treat each one of them EQUALLY. And equally doesn't just mean just giving equal time, equal money , etc etc .. Equally also means that in your heart, you must have equal amount of love for both wives. Lets just be true to ourselves and true to Allah swt. Is it possible?
The quran tells us that it is not possible to love two people equally. But it still allows to marry more than one person. It's not about equality, but rather justice. Islam commands that the husband treats them justicely. Which means giving them their rights to the best of his ability.

Also , it is forbidden in islam to marry a non muslim.
Marriage to the people of the book (women) is allowed for Muslim men. All other non-Muslim women are forbidden.


And since four marriages are allowed, and he wants to marry you without telling his first wife,
One does not have to inform the first wife regarding this, although it maybe in his best interest to do so if he wants to keep peace in his life. However, it may depend on the situation.



Originally Posted by SemiraE
Hello, I am sorry if this is not the place to ask this but here I go.

I am a 22 years old Christian living in Europe. I met a Muslim man. We bonded very fast without realizing it...but we didn't have any sex other than some occasional kissing....

heis married since 10 years and has 2 kids, now he wants me to marry him in Islam. What will that mean for me? But for him? Considering I will be his 2nd wife...

I mention that I won't change my religion and his wife will have no knowledge about this marriage.

about the religion... it's not that I don't want to but it's takes time to learn about a whole different world and We don't want to commit haram and have relations before being married

What am I risking if I accept?

and I know I seem like a horrible person....but please just restrain yourself to advices

thank you!
You did the right thing to come here to ask for advice, especially since this is a complex situation and you are new to his culture and religion and to see where he is coming from.

Regarding your situation. I see lot of bashing on the guy for wanting to marry you and his intentions being questioned. We truly do not know what is in his heart and we cannot assume his intentions unless he has given any indication of them through any means. So while Umm Layth's advice seems reasonable, it is still accusing the guy of less than honorable motives. He would be like that or he could not be like that. We do not know.

What we do know is this. He is a married man and he should have thought of how he approached other women and how he communicated with them so he wouldn't be in this predicament. And then getting close to you and making out and all that is a form of cheating on his wife. While at the same time, rather then taking advantage of you and fornicating with you he also chose to ask for your hand in marriage. So we have to look at what he did and didn't do judge based on that.

You do not have to change your religion as that would not be required and your marriage would be valid as women of the Book (Jew/Christian). But know that kids are born Muslims and have to be raised as Muslims per Islam. You also have the option to give up some of your rights, if you choose to do so (spending on you, etc). Whether you ask for full rights or partials is your call as they are your rights.

Regarding the rights and telling his first wife and all that. The advice given by scholars at islamqa.com is this:

" 1. That you want your full right to a share of his time and you are afraid that he will not be fair, and that he may be unfair towards you with regard to this right. This possibility is very likely if he does not tell his first wife about the marriage, because it will be difficult for him to give you the rights that are your due and to explain why he is away from his home every day or night. This is what usually causes problems and conflict, and may lead to falling short with regard to your rights.

2. That you do not want your rights in full and you are content with him coming to you every now and then whenever it is easy for him. In that case not telling his first wife may be better, and in most cases it will be possible for him to organise his life properly with both of you, and he can use double entendres if he is asked about where he is going or why he is late.

You have to be clear about your attitude and your wishes. If you want to have your rights in full, then we do not advise you to get married until he tells his wife and you think it most likely that he is able to deal with problems and achieve fairness (in his treatment of both of you).

If you give up your right to a share of his time, then you can marry him without him telling his wife.
"
https://islamqa.info/en/175097


With that said. If he plans to bring his wife and kids to Europe as well, then it may be difficult for him to hide his 2nd marriage from her much less give you your rights unless he can get away from time to time. If he plans to keep them there and visit them from time to time then it maybe possible to do this. Although, he has to be honorable and provide for them and not forget about them now that he has a woman aboard. This maybe more difficult on the family back home then on you. As you mentioned, it's best to talk to the imam you have in mind. It's best to talk to someone in person who has more experience in advising on these matters as a community and religious leader.
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Finding MEMO
02-21-2017, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by aaj

One does not have to inform the first wife regarding this, although it maybe in his best interest to do so if he wants to keep peace in his life. However, it may depend on the situation.

.
Really? Is that a view of a Male whose not going to get cheated on in secret?

The Woman - first wife has every right to be informed if the person who she gives importance to after Allah swt is less than honest?

Seriously think about it.
This takes away from human ethical behaviour.

Every woman has the CHOICE to stay or leave.
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aaj
02-21-2017, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Finding MEMO
Really? Is that a view of a Male whose not going to get cheated on in secret?

The Woman - first wife has every right to be informed if the person who she gives importance to after Allah swt is less than honest?

Seriously think about it.
This takes away from human ethical behaviour.

Every woman has the CHOICE to stay or leave.
It is your view that first wife has to be informed and has that right and otherwise it is unethical.

It's the view of the shaykh at islamqa that he does not need to inform the first wife if it is not necessary.

Regardless of which view one holds, the man is accountable for what he does and will have to answer for it when time comes.

It is sunnah to inform the community of the marriage through walima. But a marriage is valid if all it's conditions are being met by shariah.

Let's be honest here, husband is not the 2nd most important person for a wife after Allah. Not for many many wives. With desi, it's usually still her family that she funnels his money to.
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Finding MEMO
02-21-2017, 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by aaj
while Umm Layth's advice seems reasonable, it is still accusing the guy of less than honorable motives. He would be like that or he could not be like that. We do not know.
.
Sister Umm Layth shared her own life's experiences. No disrespect brother but your views are a bit sexist.

Your not a woman, try standing in another woman's shoes. Imagine if this was your sister whose husband was about to remarry?
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Finding MEMO
02-21-2017, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by aaj
It is your view that first wife has to be informed and has that right and otherwise it is unethical.

It's the view of the shaykh at islamqa that he does not need to inform the first wife if it is not necessary.

.
This is not my view lol it's the view of the majority of the scholars across the world.

Your saying yourself the following:
'Regardless of which view one holds, the man is accountable for what he does and will have to answer for it when time comes.

It is sunnah to inform the community of the marriage through walima. But a marriage is valid if all it's conditions are being met by shariah.

Let's be honest here, husband is not the 2nd most important person for a wife after Allah. Not for many many wives. With desi, it's usually still her family that she funnels his money to'.

Not sure what your insinuating?
Dude this is MANS nature that's why Allah swt has clearly defined the rulings so NO woman is treated unjustly.

Answer me this:

If no man can love two women equally and it's even written in the Quran.
Then why does Man try to abuse Islam and find loopholes?

The advice that all the sisters on this forum were giving was based on women's rights within Islam.

Don't take a Man's opinion they are only human. Islam is perfect - people are not.
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aaj
02-21-2017, 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by Finding MEMO
Sister Umm Layth shared her own life's experiences. No disrespect brother but your views are a bit sexist.

Your not a woman, try standing in another woman's shoes. Imagine if this was your sister whose husband was about to remarry?
I'm not putting her personal experience down in anyway. But there is no basis to assume that this guy is after this girl because she will fend for herself. That is an assumption against the guy. It may be true, it may not be true.

I do understand this is a sensitive issue for women and no woman would want her husband to marry someone else behind her back, and he should have the courtesy to inform her of his decision and in the best manner possible so as to minimize the hurt caused to her.

And it's not my views that i'm sharing, rather what the scholars on islamqa think on the matter. According them, if given situation/context doesn't deem necessary informing the first wife then it's acceptable to do this. And i'm stating this because some here are saying it's her "right" to know this. If it was her islamic right then the scholars would have said otherwise.
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Finding MEMO
02-21-2017, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by aaj
I'm not putting her personal experience down in anyway. But there is no basis to assume that this guy is after this girl because she will fend for herself. That is an assumption against the guy. It may be true, it may not be true.

I do understand this is a sensitive issue for women and no woman would want her husband to marry someone else behind her back, and he should have the courtesy to inform her of his decision and in the best manner possible so as to minimize the hurt caused to her.

And it's not my views that i'm sharing, rather what the scholars on islamqa think on the matter. According them, if given situation/context doesn't deem necessary informing the first wife then it's acceptable to do this. And i'm stating this because some here are saying it's her "right" to know this. If it was her islamic right then the scholars would have said otherwise.
Again brother you have looked at maybe 1 or 2 scholar but Islam encourages you to use your own brains too.
It's me alone who will be answerable in my grave.
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aaj
02-21-2017, 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by Finding MEMO

Answer me this:

If no man can love two women equally and it's even written in the Quran.
Then why does Man try to abuse Islam and find loopholes?

The advice that all the sisters on this forum were giving was based on women's rights within Islam.

Don't take a Man's opinion they are only human. Islam is perfect - people are not.

You'll have to elaborate further on what are you referring to in regards to abuse and loopholes.

The advice the sisters are giving on this thread are not based on women's rights within Islam, it is based on assumptions on the intentions of the guy in question. I'm not taking the guys' side, but obviously there is bias in the responses with lot of accusations, especially given how little we know of the situation or the guy in question. Which is why I advised the OP to talk to the imam in person. Not only should she talk to the imam but also have him involved in the process of this relationship moving forward. Meeting the brother and talking to him will give the imam a better indication of and measure of him then what we know or are assuming.
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Umm♥Layth
02-21-2017, 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by aaj

Regarding your situation. I see lot of bashing on the guy for wanting to marry you and his intentions being questioned. We truly do not know what is in his heart and we cannot assume his intentions unless he has given any indication of them through any means. So while Umm Layth's advice seems reasonable, it is still accusing the guy of less than honorable motives. He would be like that or he could not be like that. We do not know.
He has touched her and kissed her. That alone tells you where a man stands. An honorable man will NOT violate Allah's commands and initiate a romantic relationship with a non mahram without first asking for her hand and marrying her. Period.

We don't need to know what is in his heart, that is for Allah to know only. Allah has given us guidelines to follow to make proper judgement on our situations. From what I understand, he has not informed this sister that he is to be fully responsible financially, which is his duty if he is to marry her. It is very clear he plans to allow her to provide for herself, which clearly tells us where this man stands.

Don't justify what he is doing and play devil's advocate. You've probably never had somebody take advantage of you. I understand there is another side to this coin and we are basing our advice on what we can understand. If the sister would like to provide further details, she can.

Nobody is bashing anyone. Women tend to think with their hearts once a man has stepped in and logic goes out the window. We are trying to help her see through the emotions and preventing her from getting hurt. She is very young still and that's part of the issue.

I know SEVERAL sisters in western countries who are second wives to men with first wives overseas. They always get stuck fending for themselves which is not what Allah has ordained. Children suffer because of this, the consequences are quite large and it is usually for the sake of easy sex, immigration or other worldly gain. It isn't fair to the sister and I can help in any way, I will.
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sister herb
02-21-2017, 07:21 PM
"We don't plan on making the marriage serious"

Isn´t this tells enough about the basic intentions of this man? But basicly, it´s not needed for us to speculate does he tell to his the first wife or not or should he or should he not (of course, in general kind of question is interesting to discuss). It wasn´t that man who came here to ask our advices and opinions but sister who is planning to marry with that man. Not sure is it relevant to her to know does this man behave islamically or not as she isn´t Muslim but Christian.
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SemiraE
02-21-2017, 07:57 PM
Thank you for all the replies!

To all of you!

He is living in the same European country as me with his wife and kids since they are married.

He did touch me and kiss me because I would have never even consider to marry or have something with someone who can't touch me and kiss me I don't know how to explain it better...
he then asked me to marry him because he felt I'm special...

What I Said previously...I want to be independent. Not that I need to. He is more than willing to give me the treatment as he gives to his wife. He suggested I should quit my job because I am a workaholic so I can have free time and do other things I enjoy and he can support me financially. Which I refused cause I want a carrier. He wants to buy me a car and even an apartment If I want. Because his wife has the house and a car already. He is ready to support me in any way possible and be there for me. The only thing ... he won't be living with me because he wants to see his kids first thing when he wakes up...

He is a good man, I can see it but I don't think he realizes what he is asking from me... I don't wish to be a secret all my life or I don't know...
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sister herb
02-21-2017, 08:33 PM
So, I wish everything goes well and you two will be happy together forever (Insh´Allah - if Allah wills). I also hope that our opinions have been useful - and not too critical but you see, we have this our Islamic perspective to these kind of matters.
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aaj
02-21-2017, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
He has touched her and kissed her. That alone tells you where a man stands. An honorable man will NOT violate Allah's commands and initiate a romantic relationship with a non mahram without first asking for her hand and marrying her. Period.

We don't need to know what is in his heart, that is for Allah to know only. Allah has given us guidelines to follow to make proper judgement on our situations. From what I understand, he has not informed this sister that he is to be fully responsible financially, which is his duty if he is to marry her. It is very clear he plans to allow her to provide for herself, which clearly tells us where this man stands.

Don't justify what he is doing and play devil's advocate. You've probably never had somebody take advantage of you. I understand there is another side to this coin and we are basing our advice on what we can understand. If the sister would like to provide further details, she can.

Nobody is bashing anyone. Women tend to think with their hearts once a man has stepped in and logic goes out the window. We are trying to help her see through the emotions and preventing her from getting hurt. She is very young still and that's part of the issue.

I know SEVERAL sisters in western countries who are second wives to men with first wives overseas. They always get stuck fending for themselves which is not what Allah has ordained. Children suffer because of this, the consequences are quite large and it is usually for the sake of easy sex, immigration or other worldly gain. It isn't fair to the sister and I can help in any way, I will.

I did mention he started of with the haram. But if that is all that was his intention then he could have very well gone more into it rather than refrain and bring up marriage instead.

We don't need to know what's in his heart but at the same time we also don't need to assume what his intentions are with the given information. The sister said she will take care of her own expenses, she did not mention if she and him have had this discussion yet. So I don't know how we can assume he does not intend to do that. What happened to making 70 excuses for your brother first? Maybe they did not have that discussion or maybe they did or maybe they will later. We do not know and you are assuming he plans to bail on supporting her.

You are basing your advice on what little information is given and a whole lot of assumptions based on a lot of missing information. Regardless of how m any sisters you know, you are assuming every man will be the same and she will end up like them sisters. This is bias assumptions, not factual. So unless we get more information regarding what they have discussed or not discussed, all I see is a whole lot of assumptions on what he stands for and how he is just like all those who we turned out bad choice for some sisters you know. Are you sure you lots are not also throwing logic out the window and responding emotionally given your previous experience, be it personal or of knowing someone.


Originally Posted by sister herb
"We don't plan on making the marriage serious"

Isn´t this tells enough about the basic intentions of this man? But basicly, it´s not needed for us to speculate does he tell to his the first wife or not or should he or should he not (of course, in general kind of question is interesting to discuss). It wasn´t that man who came here to ask our advices and opinions but sister who is planning to marry with that man. Not sure is it relevant to her to know does this man behave islamically or not as she isn´t Muslim but Christian.

What that tells me is that I see a "we" in that sentence. Which means it was a two people decision. The context of that discussion or the details are unknown to us. And yet we are assuming this is intention of the man?

Just to make it clear, I'm not taking the side of this man. However, I would like to point out that a lot of the responses are biased and based on assumptions of what kind of a man he is. If you want to advise the OP then the focus should be on what Islam says and what her rights and options are, not how evil this man is. If she is in love with this man and enough to become a 2nd wife then your bias negativity towards him will do little to sway her. Giving her factual information and her options will be more helpful to her.
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aaj
02-21-2017, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
Thank you for all the replies!

To all of you!

He is living in the same European country as me with his wife and kids since they are married.

He did touch me and kiss me because I would have never even consider to marry or have something with someone who can't touch me and kiss me I don't know how to explain it better...
he then asked me to marry him because he felt I'm special...

What I Said previously...I want to be independent. Not that I need to. He is more than willing to give me the treatment as he gives to his wife. He suggested I should quit my job because I am a workaholic so I can have free time and do other things I enjoy and he can support me financially. Which I refused cause I want a carrier. He wants to buy me a car and even an apartment If I want. Because his wife has the house and a car already. He is ready to support me in any way possible and be there for me. The only thing ... he won't be living with me because he wants to see his kids first thing when he wakes up...

He is a good man, I can see it but I don't think he realizes what he is asking from me... I don't wish to be a secret all my life or I don't know...
If what you say is true then he is not as evil as the others made him out to be here. He is a man after all and in state of weakness he became intimate with you, which is something both Islam and Christianity forbids before marriage. However, all that is in the past. If this is something you want then I would advise you to learn about Islam, not so much as to convert but so that you know what your rights are upon him and what his rights are upon you so that you can make this work. Seeing that his family is in the country as well, living and sleeping arrangements will be difficult. I also don't like the fact he wants to make this a secrete marriage, there is no such thing in Islam. If he wants to honor you then he should not hide you away as his dirty shameful secrete. If this is something you want, talk to an Imam you trust and ask him to be your wali (guardian who puts your interests first) in this process. The imam will talk on your behalf (with you present) and help him realize what you want so that you are not taken advantage of in any way.
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Umm♥Layth
02-21-2017, 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
Thank you for all the replies!

To all of you!

He is living in the same European country as me with his wife and kids since they are married.

He did touch me and kiss me because I would have never even consider to marry or have something with someone who can't touch me and kiss me I don't know how to explain it better...
he then asked me to marry him because he felt I'm special...

What I Said previously...I want to be independent. Not that I need to. He is more than willing to give me the treatment as he gives to his wife. He suggested I should quit my job because I am a workaholic so I can have free time and do other things I enjoy and he can support me financially. Which I refused cause I want a carrier. He wants to buy me a car and even an apartment If I want. Because his wife has the house and a car already. He is ready to support me in any way possible and be there for me. The only thing ... he won't be living with me because he wants to see his kids first thing when he wakes up...

He is a good man, I can see it but I don't think he realizes what he is asking from me... I don't wish to be a secret all my life or I don't know...
Thank you for your clarifications. This helps alot. In this case, I would ask you to think of the big picture. If you remain a secret, any children you have with him will also be secret. Marriage is a very serious thing in Islam, so not taking the marriage seriously as you have said is already starting this off on the wrong foot. There is no such thing a secret marriage in Islam.

I understand that you wouldn't consider somebody for marriage if they had not kissed or touched you, but HE knows better and if he wanted to honor you and respect you, he would have refrained from it and explain. You are special because you are young and new to him and you probably make him feel amazing about himself, something a wife of a long time often forgets to do.

You can always be independent even if he provides for you. In Islam, you are entitled to your wealth and do not have to spend it on housing and living expenses. That falls on the husband, PLEASE never give that right up for anyone. You never know what the future will bring. Invest your money instead :)
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Umm♥Layth
02-21-2017, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by aaj
Giving her factual information and her options will be more helpful to her.
Exactly. A man who insists to keep a marriage/relationship a secret is dishonoring the woman and taking away rights by doing so. This is factual and from our religion. A man who touches and kisses a woman out of marriage is dishonoring her, again this is factual. We are focused on HIM because HE is the Muslim, who already knows the rules. She does not. I wish somebody had told me everything I said to her before I married my first husband. It would have saved me alot of hardship and pain. Now that she has clarified the financial intentions, the picture is a bit different, but we did not have that information before you see.
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aaj
02-22-2017, 12:35 AM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
Now that she has clarified the financial intentions, the picture is a bit different, but we did not have that information before you see.
I know we did not have all that information before, which is why I said there is lot of assuming going on here. This is why I said it would be more prudent and beneficial to focus on her in giving her the information rather then focusing on him, especially since you know from first hand experience how important that information is.
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Simple_Person
02-22-2017, 04:41 AM
Originally Posted by aaj
I know we did not have all that information before, which is why I said there is lot of assuming going on here. This is why I said it would be more prudent and beneficial to focus on her in giving her the information rather then focusing on him, especially since you know from first hand experience how important that information is.
I remember about a hadith i believe that Rasullah(saws) has said(I assume you guys also are aware of that one), i judge based on what i know or what you present to me. In this case this, sister tells us 50% and based on this 50% makes it for us 100% and judgement is based on that. The other half now suddenly comes above water and i think also many other sisters here who were advising her, now also have changed their advice somehow. We all agree about the whole secrecy as a no-go and also touching her before marriage is a no-go. The rest is clear.
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SemiraE
02-22-2017, 07:00 AM
I just didn't think it's important to mention about my .... future benefits... as I said I come here for knoledge... so I have no clue how a marriage in Islam is...I tried my best to expose my inner questioning ...
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sister herb
02-22-2017, 08:40 AM
We should keep this discussion on the general stage if possible. Here is other discussion about polygamy marriages in Islam:

https://www.islamicboard.com/advice-...marriage+islam

If you make a search, you may find more discussions about Islamic marriage in general.
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Simple_Person
02-22-2017, 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
I just didn't think it's important to mention about my .... future benefits... as I said I come here for knoledge... so I have no clue how a marriage in Islam is...I tried my best to expose my inner questioning ...
Sister, this is something that amazes me constantly. As a Muslim myself and coming to know about Islamic rulings each time about almost anything, goes to the smallest detail no one even may think about. Nothing is left out on purpose or seen as "not important". Everything is taken in to account. As your own money belongs to you and your future husband STILL has to spend from his own money on you. Like another sister already mentioned this, there is A LOT of wisdom behind it, as in Islam marriage is not ..simply marry a sister, but it is taking CARE of her. You take her away from her father who has taken care of her, now it is your job. Big responsibility, as i myself am not married and thinking about it scares me as i doubt myself that i may do her injustice.
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Finding MEMO
02-22-2017, 10:14 AM
Originally Posted by aaj
You'll have to elaborate further on what are you referring to in regards to abuse and loopholes.

The advice the sisters are giving on this thread are not based on women's rights within Islam, it is based on assumptions on the intentions of the guy in question. I'm not taking the guys' side, but obviously there is bias in the responses with lot of accusations, especially given how little we know of the situation or the guy in question. Which is why I advised the OP to talk to the imam in person. Not only should she talk to the imam but also have him involved in the process of this relationship moving forward. Meeting the brother and talking to him will give the imam a better indication of and measure of him then what we know or are assuming.
السلام عليكم

Brother Aaj

I think both the men & women on this forum have done a fantastic job of trying to clarify my point.

If you still don't understand my logic regarding loopholes & abusing the Islamic law. Then please do let me know if you need me to elaborate further? This is a Islamic Forum and knowledge is the key.

I appreciate everyone's time & advice trying to help the sister. In Shaa Allah she will find the guidance she's seeking.
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sister herb
02-22-2017, 10:37 AM
I am still wondering this thing: as it is allowed via Islamic law to marry more than one wife but at the same time, as it is said that Muslim is obligated to follow the law of the land as long as it does not conflict with Islamic law. Now, Islamic law doesn´t say that a man have to marry more than one wife but it is his right if he wants to. As polygamy isn´t obligatory way to practice Islam, what is the common interpretation in this kind of case? Should Muslim man follow the law of the land or broke it with cases where it is not obligatory to do so. If law forbids Muslim to pray he has to broke the law and follow Islam as praying is obligatory act but what about cases where doing something is not obligatory in Islam?
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Simple_Person
02-22-2017, 10:47 AM
Originally Posted by sister herb
I am still wondering this thing: as it is allowed via Islamic law to marry more than one wife but at the same time, as it is said that Muslim is obligated to follow the law of the land as long as it does not conflict with Islamic law. Now, Islamic law doesn´t say that a man have to marry more than one wife but it is his right if he wants to. As polygamy isn´t obligatory way to practice Islam, what is the common interpretation in this kind of case? Should Muslim man follow the law of the land or broke it with cases where it is not obligatory to do so. If law forbids Muslim to pray he has to broke the law and follow Islam as praying is obligatory act but what about cases where doing something is not obligatory in Islam?
Logic dictates that he is HAS to obey the law as long as it doesn't go against the obligatory Islamic practices. As you already said..it isn't obligatory, so he according to the law isn't permissible to marry more than 1. If he finds it ..it is his "right", then the choice is easy. This world is big and go to some country that you can marry more than 1 woman :). This is logic. It could be off course that I have missed something according to logic, that says something else. Allah knows best.
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Finding MEMO
02-22-2017, 10:47 AM
Originally Posted by sister herb
I am still wondering this thing: as it is allowed via Islamic law to marry more than one wife but at the same time, as it is said that Muslim is obligated to follow the law of the land as long as it does not conflict with Islamic law. Now, Islamic law doesn´t say that a man have to marry more than one wife but it is his right if he wants to. As polygamy isn´t obligatory way to practice Islam, what is the common interpretation in this kind of case? Should Muslim man follow the law of the land or broke it with cases where it is not obligatory to do so. If law forbids Muslim to pray he has to broke the law and follow Islam as praying is obligatory act but what about cases where doing something is not obligatory in Islam?
A side note from personal experience - if a European man has had a Civil Marriage with his first wife. As in married with accordance to the law of the land. If he then remarries by Sharia law to another - then he is still breaking the law of the land and therefore will be arrested. Multiple marriages are not allowed in most parts of the world.

People generally forget this.

This again supports my opinion re - you don't need permission from your first wife to marry another but you need to inform her so she can decide best.

Secondly no one dies from things humans do to another except by the will of Allah swt.
Lol let's not give humans that much credit!
Please don't think this man is doing his wife any favours by staying with her & concealing his intentions.

This is what I will call manipulating Islam to fit your own needs.
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Finding MEMO
02-22-2017, 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Logic dictates that he is HAS to obey the law as long as it doesn't go against the obligatory Islamic practices. As you already said..it isn't obligatory, so he according to the law isn't permissible to marry more than 1. If he finds it ..it is his "right", then the choice is easy. This world is big and go to some country that you can marry more than 1 woman :). This is logic. It could be off course that I have missed something according to logic, that says something else. Allah knows best.
Men will find loop holes and go to another country where Sharia law takes precedence.
There is a ethical Islamic practice and if anyone has good Islamic knowledge & intentions then they will not conceal anything.
Allah swt knows best.
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SemiraE
02-22-2017, 11:12 AM
He is not married in a civil way, just in Islam. And he did propose we could marry later in a civil way if we get along. By then his kids will be older and can understand him leaving.
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Simple_Person
02-22-2017, 11:13 AM
Originally Posted by Finding MEMO
A side note from personal experience - if a European man has had a Civil Marriage with his first wife. As in married with accordance to the law of the land. If he then remarries by Sharia law to another - then he is still breaking the law of the land and therefore will be arrested. Multiple marriages are not allowed.

People generally forget this.
It is funny how hypocrisy works in secular law. I can have multiple girlfriends and they can all know of one another and find it perfectly fine me using them only for my desires, but when it comes to multiple wives and responsibility for those wives and given them their rights, that suddenly is not permitted.

I find it also very strange that relationship with intimacy between teenagers is something normal, but when you say marriage everybody runs as wild beasts objecting against it.

What is the whole deal about marriage? It is exactly the same as a relationship, but you are bound to responsibilities. It looks like people wants to enjoy but no burdens. However, one could say ..let people decide for themselves. I mean if person X is having multiple wives..that is HIS business and the wives that he has married to. Or person Y is 20 years old and he marries a woman who is 40 years old. The whole society gets up..and wants to have their opinion, while nobody is asking of their opinion. I hear in this western country that i am living everybody talking about ..we have different norms and values in this country..blabla..But when you ask them how often they visit their mother..or help somebody you see is struggling with something outside. People LIKE to brand themselves as rolemodels as if they PRACTICES those norms and values of society, but when you dig further about that..all lies...just shallow hypocrites.

Also to dishonest to admit it. This parts annoys me the MOST. If i remember correctly, Rasullah(saws) has said in the end of times useless people will have a say in public affairs. The leaders of countries are the reflection of the people. Good people will fight, but if majority of the people is corrupt and don't fight it, shows they themselves are like that.
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SemiraE
02-22-2017, 11:14 AM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Sister, this is something that amazes me constantly. As a Muslim myself and coming to know about Islamic rulings each time about almost anything, goes to the smallest detail no one even may think about. Nothing is left out on purpose or seen as "not important". Everything is taken in to account. As your own money belongs to you and your future husband STILL has to spend from his own money on you. Like another sister already mentioned this, there is A LOT of wisdom behind it, as in Islam marriage is not ..simply marry a sister, but it is taking CARE of her. You take her away from her father who has taken care of her, now it is your job. Big responsibility, as i myself am not married and thinking about it scares me as i doubt myself that i may do her injustice.
I do understand your point of you (islamic point of view) but as I said, I don't go by the normal laws either. I've been on my own since a very young age, and I do not need anyone to support me in any way but morally. I am very well aware that the man is to provide for the woman even in a non muslim marriage. But I want it equal, splitting everything and sharing everything in the same time.
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Simple_Person
02-22-2017, 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by Finding MEMO
Men will find loop holes and go to another country where Sharia law takes precedence.
There is a ethical Islamic practice and if anyone has good Islamic knowledge & intentions then they will not conceal anything.
Allah swt knows best.
I think you also are aware of in Islam our deeds are according to our intentions. I am truly being honest if i say that MAJORITY of men in the present day being Muslims or non-Muslims see women as lust objects. That is why for example, in case of people of other faiths always associate in Islam having multiple wives with being because purely for lust purposes. Like a liar never trusts other people because he himself lies to people and thinks other people are like him, so their mindset is so filthy and think everybody is like him.

Muslim men of the present day however, think by majority just like those men of other faiths. Even more funny you could say that women themselves have become so brainwashed. I remember when i just embraced Islam i had through internet contact with another woman purely for da'wah purposes was my intention. Her biggest fitna was beauty. She saw her self as very attractive and she was posting on that particular social media account all kind of pictures of how beautiful she was, but i was the only one that could see her pictures. I think she thought that men are all alike and just go after beauty. Poor woman. Brainwashed to the core. She once asked me if i her as attractive, i was honest and i said you are not ugly, but also not the most beautiful one to my taste. She had done a nose job, i could swear that she had also done her lips, but she denied every time, however the size of her lips didn't fit her origin as women from that part of the world don't have by majority such large lips and also her face in general. She had done also other part of the female feature because her husband didn't saw her as somebody attractive.

At the end i came to know that her intention to marry him 12 years back was because she could keep on studying and getting her masters. Well at that time that i was talking to her, she was busy finishing her second masters. Well i guess her "dreams" came out as that was her intention for marrying that guy.
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Simple_Person
02-22-2017, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
I do understand your point of you (islamic point of view) but as I said, I don't go by the normal laws either. I've been on my own since a very young age, and I do not need anyone to support me in any way but morally. I am very well aware that the man is to provide for the woman even in a non muslim marriage. But I want it equal, splitting everything and sharing everything in the same time.
Sister, i have also been on my own from a very young age. However what I find as an opinion is one thing, but FOR SURE NOT the BEST way. I open my heart and open my mind and listen to what somebody else or a way of life has to offer with certain kind of wisdom.

A acquaintance of mine a couple of years ago her daughter just moved in with her boyfriend. I heard from that acquaintance that when they moved in, they already knew what belonged to who. So for example the couch belonged to him, the tv belonged to her..etc. etc. I said to that acquaintance of mine, that relationship will NOT survive. I can guarantee you that. After i believe 6 years indeed each one of them head their own way. When somebody already knows and brands something..this is mine and that is yours, is with other words already creating "backup-plans" if it might not work. In a marriage, there is NO backup plan. You angry? Get outside and cool down. Come back in and lets talk things out and fix our problems. Relationships of the modern age are shallow because the intention isn't even pure to go all the way. Everybody already has a backdoor. The relationships are based on love. Love is like a wick, how fast it turns on, is how fast it burns out. Love is just part of the whole relationship, but not the "essential" one. The question we need to ask ourselves, how come we see many elderly people have been together so many years. I have asked many people for the sake of knowledge and wisdom. Many times you hear respect or something in that direction and not love. In Islam, a successful marriage is SERIOUSLY fulfillment. Their connection to each other is through the Creator. As a husband you think twice before doing injustice to your wife and as a wife you also think twice before doing injustice to your husband. Further more, as a husband/wife you do not think about your rights, but you think about the rights of your wife/husband. If the husband/wife does that, she/he will love him/her more and does also do more for her/his husband/wife and his/her rights. The love because of that burns more fiercely. If either one dies, the other is very quickly "recovered" because their connection was through the Creator. While you see for example people who have no faith, they are left for dead you could say as their "other half" doesn't exist anymore and they also just wanna die.

Women can bare children, men don't. Women are emotionally less harsh and more kind than men. These are just two things, however looking at things financially it is a reason why the burden of that is more on the man than on the woman. The biggest problem right now is your insecurity and distrust i THINK. Based on what do i say this? I suspect that you think a man taking care of you is seen as you being less as feminism of the modern age advocates. You can work but your money is yours and nothing goes to him unless YOU say here..you can have some money. Well anyways, do what you think is best for yourself, but keep yourself open for knowledge and wisdom. If you think this is the right way you will shoot yourself in the foot one day. Many times women become a bit cynical after such life experiences. Know yourself and dig in to yourself that you are not yet aware of.
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sister herb
02-22-2017, 12:07 PM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
He is not married in a civil way, just in Islam. And he did propose we could marry later in a civil way if we get along. By then his kids will be older and can understand him leaving.
That´s the other thing. We are now talking about the interpretations of the Islamic law of marriage in kind of situation (polygamy when civil law forbids it), not about the marriage by civil laws. If he didn´t marry in a civil law when he married the first time it doesn´t change the situation as his the first Islamic marriage is valid by a civil law anyways. I understand if this is a bit comblicated to you to understand if Islam and it´s practices aren´t familiar to you.
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SemiraE
02-22-2017, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
That´s the other thing. We are now talking about the interpretations of the Islamic law of marriage in kind of situation (polygamy when civil law forbids it), not about the marriage by civil laws. If he didn´t marry in a civil law when he married the first time it doesn´t change the situation as his the first Islamic marriage is valid by a civil law anyways. I understand if this is a bit comblicated to you to understand if Islam and it´s practices aren´t familiar to you.
it is challenging to understand since they do not share a name or a bank account (example) and they are not registered anywhere as a couple but the paper from the Imam when they had nikah, the only way they are tied in a legal way is on their kids's birth certificates...
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sister herb
02-22-2017, 12:54 PM
That´s not original Islamic practice that woman should change hers name (family name) when she marries. Having same family name is cultural thing and common for example in Europe.

From here you find some information:

https://islamqa.info/en/6241
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Umm♥Layth
02-22-2017, 01:31 PM
The taking on of a husbands surname is a misogynistic practice. Women were once treated as property by colonizers. They are still objectified to this day...


British hereditary surnames are only about 1,000 years old. Imported by the French around the time of the Norman Conquest, they estabilised throughout much of English society by the 14th Century, with Celtic regions taking longer to adapt. Married women, however, were perceived to have no surname at all, since the Normans had also brought with them the doctrine of coverture, the legal principle that, upon marriage, a woman became her husband's possession. Her state of namelessness reflected this. In the words of one court in 1340, "when a woman took a husband, she lost every surname except 'wife of'".

Women were forbidden to keep their last names a short handful of decades ago, under the premise that the wedded couple were viewed as “one person” by the law. That one person was the husband, whose identity superseded the wife’s. He was the sole person who could vote, hold property, go to law, etc. In fact, it was only in 1972 that every United State legally allowed a woman to use her maiden name as she pleased.
In Islam, women keep their surnames, not only to keep their identity and independence as a human, but also to keep lineage clear. I would never be able to part with my father's name. I tried that in my first marriage and there wasn't a day I didn't think about it.

So now you know why him and his wife do not share a name. You do have to question why he hasn't married her legally, it is quite suspicious imo. She deserves to have her rights as a legal wife in that land.
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Simple_Person
02-22-2017, 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
The taking on of a husbands surname is a misogynistic practice. Women were once treated as property by colonizers. They are still objectified to this day...

In Islam, women keep their surnames, not only to keep their identity and independence as a human, but also to keep lineage clear. I would never be able to part with my father's name. I tried that in my first marriage and there wasn't a day I didn't think about it.

So now you know why him and his wife do not share a name. You do have to question why he hasn't married her legally, it is quite suspicious imo. She deserves to have her rights as a legal wife in that land.
It is so funny that the MOST HARDCORE feminists are waging war against Islam because Islam "is" treating women as "trash", while this hardcore equality that they are fighting for CAN ONLY be found in Islam :Emoji7:. Like somebody saying here you have keys for your shackles to get out and be free and you saying to that person "these shackles around my arms, legs and neck are signs of freedom" ...o_O!!??? :Emoji7::Emoji7::Emoji7::Emoji7:
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aaj
02-22-2017, 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
I remember about a hadith i believe that Rasullah(saws) has said(I assume you guys also are aware of that one), i judge based on what i know or what you present to me. In this case this, sister tells us 50% and based on this 50% makes it for us 100% and judgement is based on that. The other half now suddenly comes above water and i think also many other sisters here who were advising her, now also have changed their advice somehow. We all agree about the whole secrecy as a no-go and also touching her before marriage is a no-go. The rest is clear.
Yes, and that refers to facts. Based on the information given, a person will make a judgement decision. He will not assume things or insinuate or accuse the person, thereby, reading too much into it without any information or basis. The decision should be made based on the information on the table.

Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
The taking on of a husbands surname is a misogynistic practice.

You do have to question why he hasn't married her legally, it is quite suspicious imo. She deserves to have her rights as a legal wife in that land.
No, you do not. That is something he and his first wife needs to discuss or may have discussed. Seems like she is getting more of her rights then the civil law of the land would give her. Why have you been accusatory on this brother from the get go? Is it the misandry of feminism or grudges of personal experience?

Originally Posted by Finding MEMO
السلام عليكم

Brother Aaj

I think both the men & women on this forum have done a fantastic job of trying to clarify my point.

If you still don't understand my logic regarding loopholes & abusing the Islamic law. Then please do let me know if you need me to elaborate further?
:wasalam:

I"m sure they have done a fantastic job, on some other thread. This is the first time I've come across such a statement. Thus the inquiry to elaboration of your statement.

Originally Posted by sister herb
I am still wondering this thing: as it is allowed via Islamic law to marry more than one wife but at the same time, as it is said that Muslim is obligated to follow the law of the land as long as it does not conflict with Islamic law. Now, Islamic law doesn´t say that a man have to marry more than one wife but it is his right if he wants to. As polygamy isn´t obligatory way to practice Islam, what is the common interpretation in this kind of case? Should Muslim man follow the law of the land or broke it with cases where it is not obligatory to do so. If law forbids Muslim to pray he has to broke the law and follow Islam as praying is obligatory act but what about cases where doing something is not obligatory in Islam?

With regard to the Muslim man who has a second wife, I believe—and Almighty Allah knows best—that he has to follow the channels of law in order to legalize his second marriage in the country he lives in. There are some Muslim brothers who did so through the legitimate channels. They submitted documents to the European countries they reside in to the effect that they have second wives according to the Islamic Law and that the first wives agree to that; they also asserted that they would not give a privilege to one of the wives at the expense of the other. I know a Jordanian Muslim who managed to get residence for his two wives in a European country.

If the attempts to legalize the second marriage fail, the person could document his (second) marriage in one of the Islamic centers, yet, his marriage then would not be regarded legitimate under the law of the country concerned. The problem he might face in the future is regarding getting birth certificates for the children from his second wife. But I think there are some flexible European laws concerning registering names of the children born even from illegitimate relationships.

I advise the Muslims who live in the Western countries to demand their rights in that regard. Foreign non-Muslim minorities who live in the West managed to get approval to exercise their rights pursuant to their religious rituals, such as rights concerning slaughtering animals and burying their dead. Muslims can follow in the same footsteps to get legitimate approvals from the Western countries to exercise the rituals of their religion freely.

- Sheikh Ahmad Hulail, imam of Tariq ibn Ziad Mosque in Frankfort, Germany
http://www.islamawareness.net/Polygamy/fatwa001.html


Muslims living in non-Muslim countries have to comply with laws and regulations of the country they have been entrusted though valid visas to enter. At the same time, they have to avoid whatever contradicts Islamic teachings. In case they are obliged by law to uphold something contrary to Islamic teachings, they have to adhere to the minimum that the law requires of them.
https://en.islamtoday.net/node/604

According to the above text, the minimum requirement of the law is that a man can register only one woman as his wife in the civil law. He can Islamically register his other wives in the Islamic center. If the kuffars want to make it hard and say it's illegal to have polygamy then he can say by their laws he is legally married to one person, so what's the problem?

There are also places that allow polygamy in the west, there are several states in the US that allow polygamy. Also, Jews are allowed to practice their religious laws in civil matters in these western lands and indicated above, Muslims should also demand for these same rights. It seems hypocritical taht the westerners can do whatever they want in Muslim lands, yet they have a problem with Muslims not "integrating" in their haram lifestyle.

Originally Posted by Finding MEMO
Multiple marriages are not allowed in most parts of the world.
Alcohol is allowed in most parts of the world, should we go drinking then?

Majority does not decide what is acceptable for Muslims or not.
Please don't think this man is doing his wife any favours by staying with her & concealing his intentions.

This is what I will call manipulating Islam to fit your own needs.
He is not doing her any favor, rather he is practicing is Allah given right to polygamy. He is misguided in thinking he can conceal his marriage as a secrete and that can be rectified through the imam giving him dawaah and naseeha on the matter. But I would hardly label his intentions and actions as "manipulating Islam" to "fit his needs".


Originally Posted by Simple_Person
It is funny how hypocrisy works in secular law. I can have multiple girlfriends and they can all know of one another and find it perfectly fine me using them only for my desires, but when it comes to multiple wives and responsibility for those wives and given them their rights, that suddenly is not permitted.
I agree.


Actually there are three kinds of polygamy practiced in Western societies:

Serial polygamy, that is, marriage, divorce, marriage, divorce and so on any number of times.
A man married to one woman but having and supporting one or more mistresses.
An unmarried man having a number of mistresses.


In her book The Life and Teachings of Muhammed, Dr. Annie Besant says:

“There is pretended monogamy in the West, but in reality, there is polygamy without responsibility; the mistress is cast off when the man is weary of her ... the first lover has no responsibility for her future, and she is a hundred times worst off then the sheltered wife in a polygamous home.”

“When we see thousands of miserable women who crowd the streets of Western towns during the night, we must surely feel that it does not lie in the Western mouth to reproach Islam for polygamy. It is better for woman, happier for woman, more respectable for woman to live in polygamy, united to one man, only with a legitimate child in her arms and surrounded with respect, than to be seduced and then cast out into the streets, perhaps with illegitimate child outside the rule of law, uncared, unsheltered, to become victim of any passer-by, night after night, rendered incapable of motherhood, despised by all.”
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Umm♥Layth
02-22-2017, 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by aaj



No, you do not. That is something he and his first wife needs to discuss or may have discussed. Seems like she is getting more of her rights then the civil law of the land would give her. Why have you been accusatory on this brother from the get go? Is it the misandry of feminism or grudges of personal experience?
I don't have grudges actually. My ex and I are on speaking terms and get along better than we did when we were married lol. No hard feeling, however, I will not ignore what happened and is happening to other women.

His wife is entitled to her Islamic rights as well as any rights given in the land their marriage has taken place. YES his second wife to be does have a right to ask any questions she likes and I would encourage her to ask to gain clarity on his motives and have a better picture of what she is looking at here. When two divorcees marry, or when somebody marries a divorcee we ask questions about the relationship, hardships, problems, what they feel caused the marriage to fail, what they learned and so forth. So why shouldn't somebody who is marrying a married person ask about the relationship, decisions made, why's and how's? The sister is entitled to understand why he feels the need to marry again and so on. It is her life. She is young and it would be her first marriage.

It would be stupid to marry someone without a background check done personally and by others. You forget that (as far as we know) this sister has been seeing him in secret, neither his family or her family is involved. You talk about women being honored and not leaving women unsheltered with illegitimate children, yet this is exactly how it begins.

My problem here has nothing to do with polygamy, this thread isn't about reproaching it, so you don't need to defend it . I'd give her the same exact advice if this man was single, because it happens either way.

It seems as though you are taking this subject rather personal brother.
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sister herb
02-22-2017, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by aaj

With regard to the Muslim man who has a second wife, I believe—and Almighty Allah knows best—that he has to follow the channels of law in order to legalize his second marriage in the country he lives in. There are some Muslim brothers who did so through the legitimate channels. They submitted documents to the European countries they reside in to the effect that they have second wives according to the Islamic Law and that the first wives agree to that; they also asserted that they would not give a privilege to one of the wives at the expense of the other. I know a Jordanian Muslim who managed to get residence for his two wives in a European country.
I have read too about such cases but they aren´t now same - those men had multiple wives before they moved to Europe. This one we are discussing is new marriage in Europe. I see it different - maybe others don´t see it same like I. Also, I don´t talk about how to legalize multiple marriages in Europe but what is Islamic perspective for the situation when someone doesn´t respect land laws in the situation what isn´t obligatory in Islam (like the second marriage), not what is land law´s perspective to it.

Thanks about link; it´s actually just same link which I posted to this discussion before (post number 2).

https://www.islamicboard.com/general...4486-wife.html
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Scimitar
02-22-2017, 04:22 PM
Don't marry someone who is cheating on his wife with you, if he did it to her - he can do it to you too.

Bleh
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aaj
02-22-2017, 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
I have read too about such cases but they aren´t now same - those men had multiple wives before they moved to Europe. This one we are discussing is new marriage in Europe. I see it different - maybe others don´t see it same like I. Also, I don´t talk about how to legalize multiple marriages in Europe but what is Islamic perspective for the situation when someone doesn´t respect land laws in the situation what isn´t obligatory in Islam (like the second marriage), not what is land law´s perspective to it.

Thanks about link; it´s actually just same link which I posted to this discussion before (post number 2).

https://www.islamicboard.com/general...4486-wife.html
It would be interesting to read and know what the scholars think on the subject. Although, I do presume that there may be difference of opinion among them regarding how much "obeying the law of the land" applies in such a situation.

Still the 2nd link i provided does give a good indication of it though:

In case they are obliged by law to uphold something contrary to Islamic teachings, they have to adhere to the minimum that the law requires of them.


Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth

His wife is entitled to her Islamic rights as well as any rights given in the land their marriage has taken place. YES his second wife to be does have a right to ask any questions she likes and I would encourage her to ask to gain clarity on his motives and have a better picture of what she is looking at here. When two divorcees marry, or when somebody marries a divorcee we ask questions about the relationship, hardships, problems, what they feel caused the marriage to fail, what they learned and so forth. So why shouldn't somebody who is marrying a married person ask about the relationship, decisions made, why's and how's? The sister is entitled to understand why he feels the need to marry again and so on. It is her life. She is young and it would be her first marriage.

It seems as though you are taking this subject rather personal brother.
Yes, she has every right to ask questions to get the whole picture before taking such a big step. And I do not think you are against polygamy nor am I taking this personal. I'm all for giving her advice and questions she can ask. What I caution against is the backbiting of the brother based on assumptions. Which is what has been going on in here.
Reply

Scimitar
02-22-2017, 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by Finding MEMO
Just to clarify - I have been raised both to be extremely independent and have my own money.
how much money? :):D

Scimi
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Finding MEMO
02-23-2017, 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
how much money? :):D

Scimi
Very funny ha ha ha
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SemiraE
02-24-2017, 08:18 AM
Okay...So I think we are going to ''break-up''... I am not ready for this...and if I want it I want all of him and what comes with it. Except his wife!

I am not sure..but I can't be a secret for my whole life... or get married even if it's just in Islam to have a halal relationship only to realise later that I am just the secret ''affair'' and get my heartbroken..because I know I could fall in love with him... and honestly...I am 99% sure he will never leave his wife and even if he does...I would be heartbroken for her, because I know the kids will be more than perfect wherever they are cause they are like his precious gems.


So I just wanted to thank all of you so much for your replies, they really helped me a lot. Especially the girls, since they could somehow relate and really get involved in giving me honest and helpful opinions.

THANK YOU!
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Simple_Person
02-24-2017, 08:37 AM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
Okay...So I think we are going to ''break-up''... I am not ready for this...and if I want it I want all of him and what comes with it. Except his wife!

I am not sure..but I can't be a secret for my whole life... or get married even if it's just in Islam to have a halal relationship only to realise later that I am just the secret ''affair'' and get my heartbroken..because I know I could fall in love with him... and honestly...I am 99% sure he will never leave his wife and even if he does...I would be heartbroken for her, because I know the kids will be more than perfect wherever they are cause they are like his precious gems.


So I just wanted to thank all of you so much for your replies, they really helped me a lot. Especially the girls, since they could somehow relate and really get involved in giving me honest and helpful opinions.

THANK YOU!
Sister, think deeply about your choice. Why it is your choice and not somebody else's choice. What i mean by this, some times people do something, but the reality is that it was not their choice, but it was somehow manipulated to them to "forcefully"choose from because somebody made you scared of the other choice. With the outcome being that you hate those people who have made you choose that choice as you yourself would have taken that other choice. I am not saying you should stay with that guy or even leave that guy. I am just saying, is it REALLY your choice? Please do not reply to this comment of mine, but answer that to yourself. If you say yes 100% sure it is my choice, then that is exactly what i wanted you to do. I wish you good luck and maybe till the next time on this forum in another topic :).
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SemiraE
02-24-2017, 09:16 AM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Sister, think deeply about your choice. Why it is your choice and not somebody else's choice. What i mean by this, some times people do something, but the reality is that it was not their choice, but it was somehow manipulated to them to "forcefully"choose from because somebody made you scared of the other choice. With the outcome being that you hate those people who have made you choose that choice as you yourself would have taken that other choice. I am not saying you should stay with that guy or even leave that guy. I am just saying, is it REALLY your choice? Please do not reply to this comment of mine, but answer that to yourself. If you say yes 100% sure it is my choice, then that is exactly what i wanted you to do. I wish you good luck and maybe till the next time on this forum in another topic :).
It is my choice. If it is influenced it is only by odds. It's the right choice to make at least in my opinion. For everyone implicated not just me.
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Simple_Person
02-24-2017, 09:40 AM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
It is my choice. If it is influenced it is only by odds. It's the right choice to make at least in my opinion. For everyone implicated not just me.
Nobody is saying i think is the right or the wrong choice. As with choices often feelings are part of the choice which is subjective. Without feelings being included in the choice is also not a good thing to do. So if you say it is the right choice to YOUR opinion, everybody is with you. It is YOUR life and YOUR choices. So again, what i only find important is that YOU stand by YOUR choice 100% and not choose because some people Muslim or Christian said it is a good choice or a bad choice. You listen to what they have to say, if bad advice according to you, you throw it away if it is good advice according to you, you include it in YOUR decision.

If later on it happened to be a good choice (Thank God), if it happened to be a bad choice, you only blame yourself nobody else.

So again, i wish you good luck with it.
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Umm♥Layth
02-24-2017, 12:06 PM
Sister Semira, you are correct in assuming he would never leave his wife. In Islam, you have to have very valid reasons for wanting to divorce and simply finding a new partner is not sufficient. Even if he is unhappy with her, there are many things she has done and is doing right and they can always work on marital issues to improve their relationship. There's always a solution if one wants it.

Children will be very deeply affected if their parents split up. One of my kids is from a divorce, my step child is also, so are my husband and I as well as our siblings and my father. IT HURTS and no, just because they are his precious gems doesn't mean they will be okay wherever they are as much as we like to believe children are resilient. There's serious repercussions to breaking up a home, way beyond what we can see today/at the moment.

I'm glad you have come to a decision and I hope you learned new things throughout our discussion, insha'Allah. It is most definitely a test for anyone involved, including those of us who have given you words of advice.

If you need help with this process please let us know. You can always reach out privately as well.
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Simple_Person
02-24-2017, 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
Sister Semira, you are correct in assuming he would never leave his wife. In Islam, you have to have very valid reasons for wanting to divorce and simply finding a new partner is not sufficient. Even if he is unhappy with her, there are many things she has done and is doing right and they can always work on marital issues to improve their relationship. There's always a solution if one wants it.

Children will be very deeply affected if their parents split up. One of my kids is from a divorce, my step child is also, so are my husband and I as well as our siblings and my father. IT HURTS and no, just because they are his precious gems doesn't mean they will be okay wherever they are as much as we like to believe children are resilient. There's serious repercussions to breaking up a home, way beyond what we can see today/at the moment.

I'm glad you have come to a decision and I hope you learned new things throughout our discussion, insha'Allah. It is most definitely a test for anyone involved, including those of us who have given you words of advice.

If you need help with this process please let us know. You can always reach out privately as well.
Sister, be very careful with your advice especially in these cases. Reading your comment, looks like you have experienced one or two ugly things regarding marriages and divorces. Before giving advice especially when somebody is in such situation, ask yourself 10 times if the advice will benefit the person who is asking for advice. As your own bad experiences MIGHT influence your advice and thus maybe always regard the male part as the dishonest one.

I am not saying you have done it right now, i am saying just be careful. As the advice that you have given if it might be bad advice regarding the marriage, you will also be held accountable on the Day of Judgement. Allah(swt) is aware of all the things we do and intending to do.
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sister herb
02-24-2017, 01:55 PM
This has been interesting discussion - for me specially. When I was younger (at the same age like the OP), I was in the just similar situation (married Muslim man who asked me to become his the second wife, no need to bother his the first one telling, kids etc. etc.). After a serious thinking I made my decision what to do and it was (like it seems right now) same like what this sister is doing. So I said thanks but no thanks, I am sure here will be some other man meant just for me. And there was (but that´s the other story).

So I can say that I have understood this situation better than others could imagine. ;)
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Simple_Person
02-24-2017, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
This has been interesting discussion - for me specially. When I was younger (at the same age like the OP), I was in the just similar situation (married Muslim man who asked me to become his the second wife, no need to bother his the first one telling, kids etc. etc.). After a serious thinking I made my decision what to do and it was (like it seems right now) same like what this sister is doing. So I said thanks but no thanks, I am sure here will be some other man meant just for me. And there was (but that´s the other story).

So I can say that I have understood this situation better than others could imagine. ;)
Sister, out of curiosity and as you are a sister and might know this better than me. Have you witnessed or experienced that a sister asked a brother to marry him? As this is normal within Islamic principles.
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Finding MEMO
02-24-2017, 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Sister, out of curiosity and as you are a sister and might know this better than me. Have you witnessed or experienced that a sister asked a brother to marry him? As this is normal within Islamic principles.
lol

Are you asking if a woman can propose to a man? As in has Allah swt given women that right too? AstaghfurAllah

YES
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sister herb
02-24-2017, 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Sister, out of curiosity and as you are a sister and might know this better than me. Have you witnessed or experienced that a sister asked a brother to marry him? As this is normal within Islamic principles.
Yes, few times. I know it´s ok in Islam but not sure how big influence is with some cultural background as how common it is. Surely it´s more familiar to sisters with European background (I think).
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Simple_Person
02-24-2017, 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
Yes, few times. I know it´s ok in Islam but not sure how big influence is with some cultural background as how common it is. Surely it´s more familiar to sisters with European background (I think).
Alhamdulillah, this calms my heart knowing that such practices still exist, as it is something normal but cultures have made it something weird and inappropriate, while i would feel honored to have a sister come to ask my hairy hand :Emoji7:.
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Simple_Person
02-24-2017, 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by Finding MEMO
lol

Are you asking if a woman can propose to a man? As in has Allah swt given women that right too? Astaghfuralla

Hell YES
No i am not asking if a woman can propose, i already know it is normal practice within Islamic principles. You sisters have become lazy. Ask others sisters to come ask our hands. We will give you the whole body and mind as a extra with the hands. ;D
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Finding MEMO
02-24-2017, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Alhamdulillah, this calms my heart knowing that such practices still exist, as it is something normal but cultures have made it something weird and inappropriate, while i would feel honored to have a sister come to ask my hairy hand :Emoji7:.
إن شاء الله
Allah swt will bless everyone with pious spouses. Always have faith Allah swt is saving you from bad and saving you for someone worthy!
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Simple_Person
02-24-2017, 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by Finding MEMO
إن شاء الله
Allah swt will bless everyone with pious spouses.
True, but not trying to be pious yourself, why would you then deserve a pious spouse right? Many brothers saying they want a practicing sister, who has still not committed the third largest sin, while they themselves have done most what Allah(swt) has made it haram and are still not praying or not even trying to walk the path that Allah(swt) is pleased with. Talk, the talk, but not walk the walk. Those brothers on the contrary will ruin such a sisters life.
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Umm♥Layth
02-24-2017, 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Sister, be very careful with your advice especially in these cases. Reading your comment, looks like you have experienced one or two ugly things regarding marriages and divorces. Before giving advice especially when somebody is in such situation, ask yourself 10 times if the advice will benefit the person who is asking for advice. As your own bad experiences MIGHT influence your advice and thus maybe always regard the male part as the dishonest one.

I am not saying you have done it right now, i am saying just be careful. As the advice that you have given if it might be bad advice regarding the marriage, you will also be held accountable on the Day of Judgement. Allah(swt) is aware of all the things we do and intending to do.
I appreciate your advice brother, however, I haven't said anything wrong. I was actually going to address your post, but decided not to. When a person is firm in their decision, you shouldn't be the cause of second guessing, especially when it is something as delicate as this. The sister obviously came here in conflict and needed clarification and she got the clarifications she needed.

Do you have experience in marriage and broken homes? Probably not.

Why is it that when somebody brings their (not so pleasant) experience to the table, they are considered bitter or assumed to have grudges ^o). Does Allah not give us all experiences so that we may gain wisdom and share with others? What is the point of any of it if we allow other to make the same (or worse) mistakes without at least advising?

I'm sure there's a hadith about this. Something along the lines of "a person who repeats the same mistakes as his brother is a donkey". Maybe I am mistaken or it is a proverb, but my point is, we all have experiences to share so that others can learn. It is up to each individual to decide for themselves and weight their pros and cons.

I'm not responsible for her decisions, I am responsible for the information I share and only that. Bystanders are also responsible for their lack of action you know ;)

Contrary to popular belief, some of us who go through hardship actually heal, LEARN and come out a better person than they were before, Alhamdullilah :) Believe me when I tell you, I'm not a bitter hag who thinks ill of all men. I was blessed with so much more in a husband that I had ever though of asking for in my second marriage, Alhamdullilah. I regret nothing in my past (except sins of course) and I'm grateful for my experiences. I won't sugarcoat the truth and the possibilities though. I feel that my community failed me, grown women with more experience failed me in advising me before marriage. I won't do that to another sister OR brother.

If a brother came here with a similar dilemma, I would also help him question his situation so that he may gain clarity.

and Allah knows best! :)
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Simple_Person
02-24-2017, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
I appreciate your advice brother, however, I haven't said anything wrong. I was actually going to address your post, but decided not to. When a person is firm in their decision, you shouldn't be the cause of second guessing, especially when it is something as delicate as this. The sister obviously came here in conflict and needed clarification and she got the clarifications she needed.

Do you have experience in marriage and broken homes? Probably not.

Why is it that when somebody brings their (not so pleasant) experience to the table, they are considered bitter or assumed to have grudges ^o). Does Allah not give us all experiences so that we may gain wisdom and share with others? What is the point of any of it if we allow other to make the same (or worse) mistakes without at least advising?

I'm sure there's a hadith about this. Something along the lines of "a person who repeats the same mistakes as his brother is a donkey". Maybe I am mistaken or it is a proverb, but my point is, we all have experiences to share so that others can learn. It is up to each individual to decide for themselves and weight their pros and cons.

I'm not responsible for her decisions, I am responsible for the information I share and only that. Bystanders are also responsible for their lack of action you know ;)

Contrary to popular belief, some of us who go through hardship actually heal, LEARN and come out a better person than they were before, Alhamdullilah :) Believe me when I tell you, I'm not a bitter hag who thinks ill of all men. I was blessed with so much more in a husband that I had ever though of asking for in my second marriage, Alhamdullilah. I regret nothing in my past (except sins of course) and I'm grateful for my experiences. I won't sugarcoat the truth and the possibilities though. I feel that my community failed me, grown women with more experience failed me in advising me before marriage. I won't do that to another sister OR brother.

If a brother came here with a similar dilemma, I would also help him question his situation so that he may gain clarity.

and Allah knows best! :)
Sister, there is experience and there is assumptions. Experience is beneficial, assumptions are not. For example, if you have experience, you can use certain questions to quickly show the real intention of some people. However, your feelings, are PROHIBITED to be brought in with a advice which are assumptions. As Islamic Judges, cannot judge when they bring their own feelings in it. A advice or judgement is based on rationality and logic.

You said this "When a person is firm in their decision, you shouldn't be the cause of second guessing". What you said is wrong on so many levels. What i have said is sister, you have said X, are you 100% sure of it? Do you have all the arguments why you have chosen X as your choice? She said yes and gave HER arguments. This makes her also more sure of HER decision. While now regarding this comment of yours, it seems you wanted her to get rid of him instead. THAT IS NOT YOUR decision to make. We here on this forum, give advice, we do not choose for people. This is EXACTLY why i typed that comment knowing that sister to not be influenced or maybe manipulated to choose one decision while it may NOT be her decision. Let's say if this sister would have indeed taken this advice because you somehow manipulated her to do so. Afterwards realizing that it wasn't really what she wanted it. She maybe later on hate Muslims because of such "lousy" advice and ruining her life. But if she was aware of all of it, with very firm argumentation why she would leave him, makes it thus the more strong decision and make her a stronger and wise and intelligent woman.

Everything in the current society worldwide has become corrupted, YET we are NOT permitted to assume things.

You mix up many things. Making the same mistake is one thing, but i am MORE than sure that you and i still do not know every detail. Yet you sound as if you do, because you have experienced a bit SIMILAR situation based on the few things this sister has said.

I indeed have no marriage experience that for sure, but i am also not influenced by negative feelings regarding of a marriage experience. It is just how you look at things. Often we get tunnel vision, while simple answers and questions are given by the most inexperienced people. Like a child saying "mom/dad why is X like that?" You and i maybe never even realizing that indeed something we have done for years, but looking at it from another perspective might seem odd. So do not brush me off because i have no marriage experience, rather judge what i say and teach me how contradictory it is what i am saying.

Peace

Btw, i not having any hard feeling and i hope you also don't towards me ..as i am just a Simple_Person with a simple mind and a simple argument. :)
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Umm♥Layth
02-24-2017, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Sister, there is experience and there is assumptions. Experience is beneficial, assumptions are not. For example, if you have experience, you can use certain questions to quickly show the real intention of some people.
I did exactly this. I provided my experience and asked questions. Go back and read my posts. At no point did I say "This brother is 100% without a doubt doint XYZ." No. I provided plausible explanations.

However, your feelings, are PROHIBITED to be brought in with a advice which are assumptions. As Islamic Judges, cannot judge when they bring their own feelings in it. A advice or judgement is based on rationality and logic.
Speaking of assumptions, I do believe you are assuming that emotions were used while advising here when in fact they were not. I have no feelings on this matter. It does anger me to see injustice and I do what I can to prevent it, but ultimately, I am not related to our sister Semira or her boyfriend. I'm simply an outsider looking in. In no way, shape, or form did I make this about myself.

She maybe later on hate Muslims because of such "lousy" advice and ruining her life. But if she was aware of all of it, with very firm argumentation why she would leave him, makes it thus the more strong decision and make her a stronger and wise and intelligent woman.
You have no control over what she does or doesn't think and people don't NEED to argue about their decisions. Most people live their lives in limbo, unable to make firm decisions in life because they don't trust Allah or themselves. People around them don't help when they are questioning their decisions. I understand where you are coming from though.

Oh and if you care to make muslims look their best, don't argue about petty things lol. You are entitled to give your advice and I'm entitled to give my advice also. We don't see life through the same lens and it is GOOD that a person get different perspectives.

Everything in the current society worldwide has become corrupted, YET we are NOT permitted to assume things.
Sorry, this doesn't make sense. This is a moot point anyway because at no point was I assuming anything. This has been a constant accusation on this thread and it seems to me that those making these accusations have some sort of emotion invested in this subject.

i am MORE than sure that you and i still do not know every detail. Yet you sound as if you do, because you have experienced a bit SIMILAR situation based on the few things this sister has said.
Again, I never made her situation about me. We only advised her based on the information she provided and as she provided more, our advice changed.

I indeed have no marriage experience that for sure, but i am also not influenced by negative feelings regarding of a marriage experience. It is just how you look at things. Often we get tunnel vision, while simple answers and questions are given by the most inexperienced people.
I understand what you are saying, but you have to have some level of respect for your elders and people with more and/or different experience than your own. I certainly do not have tunnel vision. I'm actually a councelor in real life, and it is part of my profession to provide different angles and points of view

So do not brush me off because i have no marriage experience, rather judge what i say and teach me how contradictory it is what i am saying.
Nobody is brushing you off. I asked that question for two purposes. 1) To be sure I'm not making false assumptions. 2) So you can reflect on what you are advising and your experience on the matter. This IS relevant, believe it or not.

This is similar to giving parental advise when a person has no children and then when it is their turn to be parents, they end up eating their words and choking on them lol. Most of us have been there ;)

Let's stay humble. No hard feelings.

Asalaam Aleikum.
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Simple_Person
02-24-2017, 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
I did exactly this. I provided my experience and asked questions. Go back and read my posts. At no point did I say "This brother is 100% without a doubt doint XYZ." No. I provided plausible explanations.



Speaking of assumptions, I do believe you are assuming that emotions were used while advising here when in fact they were not. I have no feelings on this matter. It does anger me to see injustice and I do what I can to prevent it, but ultimately, I am not related to our sister Semira or her boyfriend. I'm simply an outsider looking in. In no way, shape, or form did I make this about myself.



You have no control over what she does or doesn't think and people don't NEED to argue about their decisions. Most people live their lives in limbo, unable to make firm decisions in life because they don't trust Allah or themselves. People around them don't help when they are questioning their decisions. I understand where you are coming from though.

Oh and if you care to make muslims look their best, don't argue about petty things lol. You are entitled to give your advice and I'm entitled to give my advice also. We don't see life through the same lens and it is GOOD that a person get different perspectives.


Sorry, this doesn't make sense. This is a moot point anyway because at no point was I assuming anything. This has been a constant accusation on this thread and it seems to me that those making these accusations have some sort of emotion invested in this subject.



Again, I never made her situation about me. We only advised her based on the information she provided and as she provided more, our advice changed.



I understand what you are saying, but you have to have some level of respect for your elders and people with more and/or different experience than your own. I certainly do not have tunnel vision. I'm actually a councelor in real life, and it is part of my profession to provide different angles and points of view



Nobody is brushing you off. I asked that question for two purposes. 1) To be sure I'm not making false assumptions. 2) So you can reflect on what you are advising and your experience on the matter. This IS relevant, believe it or not.

This is similar to giving parental advise when a person has no children and then when it is their turn to be parents, they end up eating their words and choking on them lol. Most of us have been there ;)

Let's stay humble. No hard feelings.

Asalaam Aleikum.
You did not get my point. But i leave this discussion like this.

wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullah
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Simple_Person
02-25-2017, 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
.
Sister, our conversation has stayed on my mind since yesterday and i have the feeling that i somehow have done injustice to you or hurt your feelings in someway.

I apologize and please forgive me as it wasn't intended like that. I sometimes say things that are seen as blunt because i often go straight to point and forget the emotional part of it as this still exist.

Again, please forgive me as i did not intended as something negative.
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Finding MEMO
02-25-2017, 12:04 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Sister, our conversation has stayed on my mind since yesterday and i have the feeling that i somehow have done injustice to you or hurt your feelings in someway.

I apologize and please forgive me as it wasn't intended like that. I sometimes say things that are seen as blunt because i often go straight to point and forget the emotional part of it as this still exist.

Again, please forgive me as i did not intended as something negative.

سبحان الله

Well said brother!
Islam teaches us the simplicity of being humble. I'm a huge fan of apologising from the fear of having caused anyone any pain because of anything I said or did especially unintentionally.

I only truly care what Allah swt thinks of me therefore showing my humility is a sign of true worship, submission & strength. Not weakness.

I do constantly fear writing anything via social media because if people misconstrue your message face to face - on a forum it's even easier!

We have to totally own our attitude not just by words but by our daily actions.
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Umm♥Layth
02-25-2017, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Sister, our conversation has stayed on my mind since yesterday and i have the feeling that i somehow have done injustice to you or hurt your feelings in someway.

I apologize and please forgive me as it wasn't intended like that. I sometimes say things that are seen as blunt because i often go straight to point and forget the emotional part of it as this still exist.

Again, please forgive me as i did not intended as something negative.
I also ask your that you forgive me if I offended you in any way. Don't worry, I'm fine! Alhamdullilah. Text is difficult as it shows no emotion or body language. I know you mean well :)
Reply

Simple_Person
02-25-2017, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
I also ask your that you forgive me if I offended you in any way. Don't worry, I'm fine! Alhamdullilah. Text is difficult as it shows no emotion or body language. I know you mean well :)
i hope truly that you can do what you were doing before. As your comments often contain valuable information and wisdom. And no, you have not offended me and if you feel like you have, know that i already have forgiven you :).

Jazakallahu khairan, for your time and effort.

As-salamu alaikum.
Reply

islamocurious
02-25-2017, 11:53 PM
He is asking you to be his mistress and nothing more.
Reply

MuslimInshallah
02-26-2017, 06:28 PM
Assalaamu alaikum everyone,


(smile) This is an important discussion, and I congratulate everyone who has given their input on this topic. I have therefore made this a "gems thread". I also will be "repping" people, but as I do not want to re-read the whole thread and try to figure out which is the best post by each person (and honestly, there are a lot of really good posts), I'll just go systematically from the beginning (in case you were wondering why I chose a particular post).


May God, the Generous, Reward you all for your sincere efforts to tackle this question.
Reply

Simple_Person
02-26-2017, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
Assalaamu alaikum everyone,


(smile) This is an important discussion, and I congratulate everyone who has given their input on this topic. I have therefore made this a "gems thread". I also will be "repping" people, but as I do not want to re-read the whole thread and try to figure out which is the best post by each person (and honestly, there are a lot of really good posts), I'll just go systematically from the beginning (in case you were wondering why I chose a particular post).


May God, the Generous, Reward you all for your sincere efforts to tackle this question.
Sister, i am kind of green behind the ears about many things done on the forum..like "gems" and this whole "repping" system. However your post to me is very confusing. Are you saying that you will decide what is the best post that answers this topic?

Btw, is there any way that i can hide my reputation, Rep power AND Likes (received).
Reply

Umm♥Layth
02-26-2017, 07:06 PM
She said "best post by each person" meaning, which post she will rep us from. For example, I if I made 20 posts in this thread, she will not rep me on all 20, rather on my best couple of posts. Make sense?

Also, there is a wisdom behind the rep power. It encourages posted to make quality posts and not focus on post count. Quality posts are very useful and important for good discussions.

I hope this helps! :)
Reply

Finding MEMO
02-26-2017, 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Sister, i am kind of green behind the ears about many things done on the forum..like "gems" and this whole "repping" system. However your post to me is very confusing. Are you saying that you will decide what is the best post that answers this topic?

Btw, is there any way that i can hide my reputation, Rep power AND Likes (received).
I don't know what either terms mean either :)
Please explain sister

Jazak'Allahu Khairan Khateeran
Reply

MuslimInshallah
02-26-2017, 07:14 PM
Assalaamu alaikum Simple Person,


"gems" means that the thread is highlighted as being particularly beneficial.

(smile) No, I did not choose any particular post as the best... I just gave rep at the first post I saw for each member. Because honestly, most of the posts were very sincere and useful.

Reputation is a way for members to know something about one another. If someone has a high rep, this generally indicates that this person has a) been around for a while and b) that this person's posts have been deemed a positive contribution by at least some of the other members.

Rep power is the amount of reputation that you can give to another member. Again, the more you have been around, and the more you have contributed, the more you can offer recognition to another member. This is not only a nice way to telling another member that you recognize his or her efforts, but it helps others (often newer people) to know how the poster is viewed by the other members, based on his or her contributions.

(smile) I hope this helps a bit. But if you have any more questions, please submit them to the Helpdesk. It is better to keep this thread on-topic.


May Allah, the Glorious, Reward those who wish to be modest.
Reply

Simple_Person
02-26-2017, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
She said "best post by each person" meaning, which post she will rep us from. For example, I if I made 20 posts in this thread, she will not rep me on all 20, rather on my best couple of posts. Make sense?

Also, there is a wisdom behind the rep power. It encourages posted to make quality posts and not focus on post count. Quality posts are very useful and important for good discussions.

I hope this helps! :)
Then it would be useful to also be able to hide my amount of posts :). I am just a Simple_Person who wants to stay simple. As you for example stated "to make quality posts" which from my perspective more looks like a trap for sheytan to use. As we often will try to post such great quality posts so people can say "ma'sha'Allah what a wise/smart person, that he/she gained so many reputation points or this rep power". I know i am a strange Simple_Person, but what counts for me is that the individual i advice can by him/herself judge the comment i made beneficial or not. I do not want whole community to see what achievement i have made so far.

I am by the way not saying for everybody to hide those things, but being able to disable it if you want to. As i myself see FOR MYSELF more harm than benefit in it.
Reply

Umm♥Layth
02-26-2017, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Then it would be useful to also be able to hide my amount of posts :). I am just a Simple_Person who wants to stay simple. As you for example stated "to make quality posts" which from my perspective more looks like a trap for sheytan to use. As we often will try to post such great quality posts so people can say "ma'sha'Allah what a wise/smart person, that he/she gained so many reputation points or this rep power". I know i am a strange Simple_Person, but what counts for me is that the individual i advice can by him/herself judge the comment i made beneficial or not. I do not want whole community to see what achievement i have made so far.

I am by the way not saying for everybody to hide those things, but being able to disable it if you want to. As i myself see FOR MYSELF more harm than benefit in it.
I understand your perspective and I don't think people make good posts for the sake of reputation. Shaytaan can use any door he wants if the person leaves it open. The amount of influence shaytaan has on each individual is in their own hands.

I was simply explaining it from a forum moderation point of view. As a member, I would much rather see posts that are beneficial than to see empty posts with emojis and 2-3 words. That's just my opinion as somebody who has frequented different forums for 12 years.

Hope this was helpful :)
Reply

SemiraE
03-06-2017, 12:01 PM
UPDATE:

So after I talked with an imam and with my... man, and listening to advices from here I have decided to back down from the whole situation.

The man in question refused to accept my decision, not that he didn't agree but he didn't want to let me go. (as in he doesn't want to lose me)

So he told his family and wife about his intentions and about me.
His family accepted somehow, except his mother who thinks me being christian and marrying him is haram and i'm a sinner and *dirty*. Which I know it's not!(haram)
His wife... is threatening to kill herself or leaving and taking the children away and doesn't really speak with him anymore even though they live in the same household.

I am still sustaining my decision and waiting to see what happens though... having small small second thoughts.
I'm posting this in the idea that maybe it will generate more answers and some day will be helpful for someone in my situation.
Reply

Eric H
03-06-2017, 12:23 PM
Greetings and peace be with you SemiraE;

His wife... is threatening to kill herself or leaving and taking the children away and doesn't really speak with him anymore even though they live in the same household.
You are the only one able to make the decision, but by the sound of it, you will not be able to have a full and equal relationship with the first wife, the children and mother in law. It seems his first wife will leave, and then you will become a first wife and not a second wife. That is, until he finds another second wife.

I am still sustaining my decision and waiting to see what happens though... having small small second thoughts.
You seem a caring person, and as such, I think your conscience will trouble you in years to come if you go ahead, especially if the first wife suffers.

In the spirit of praying to do the will of God.

Blessings
Eric
Reply

Umm♥Layth
03-06-2017, 12:48 PM
If you are serious about cutting him off, you need to change all of your contact details and place a restraining order so he doesn't come by your place. He will be permanently gone before you know it. He needs to take care of his wife and children, it isn't worth breaking up his home over feelings he allowed himself to develop in a haraam manner.

I personally haven't experienced it, but have someone dear to me who has been in similar shoes. It WILL be on your conscious for the rest of your life and if him and his current wife manage to stay together, it is very likely that your life will not be so fantastic. Even if they split, you will never ever "get rid" of her because of the children, I'm a stepmom, I know ;) Eventually, with time, the back and forth will exhaust him.

You have to understand that if he wanted a second wife, he would have looked for one properly. He would have given his current wife plenty of time to get used to the idea BEFORE searching for a wife. OR, he would have just searched for a second wife the correct way, the same way most practicing Muslims find a wife, which is through family, friends or the local mosque, not by starting a love relationship and then deciding to marry.

What he did here is unfair to his current wife and to you which clearly tells you how it will be in the future. He is following his desires, not his religion. He doesn't appear to be thinking straight and he isn't seeking proper advice either from what it looks like. In cases like these, serious intervention is necessary. One who has invested emotion and has desires cannot make logical decisions about the relationship without help. Then there's the ego part of things...which is another subject.

Like I said, if you are serious about cutting him off then do it for real. Don't leave him any room to reach in. Don't respond to texts, e-mails and don't make yourself available. Close all the doors and he will be gone before you know it. Save yourself heartache, drama and stress.

You deserve a fair chance at a good, stable, drama free relationship.
Reply

Finding MEMO
03-06-2017, 02:26 PM
Subhan'Allah great advice from sister Umm Layth.

Best advice comes from an empathic perspective.

May Allah swt guide you in the right way hun.

When your out of this situation you will be relieved. Right now it's too overwhelming to think straight.
Reply

Scimitar
03-06-2017, 02:51 PM
Empathy for whom? The first wife? you can only have that if you've experienced the same as her.

Otherwise it's something else.

Having empathy for the "mistress" is uh... well, work it out.

Scimi
Reply

Finding MEMO
03-06-2017, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Empathy for whom? The first wife? you can only have that if you've experienced the same as her.

Otherwise it's something else.

Having empathy for the "mistress" is uh... well, work it out.

Scimi

Hey Scimi
I don't understand what your implying?
Please elaborate...
who you asking??? [emoji848]
Reply

Scimitar
03-06-2017, 05:53 PM
You.

:D

Scimi
Reply

Umm♥Layth
03-06-2017, 08:50 PM
In this case, it is possible to have empathy for both and from many angles, It will depend on your life experiences.This is why it is wise to ask a group of people from many walks of life, like this sister is doing.
Reply

Finding MEMO
03-06-2017, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Umm[emoji813
Layth;2952172]If you are serious about cutting him off, you need to change all of your contact details and place a restraining order so he doesn't come by your place. He will be permanently gone before you know it. He needs to take care of his wife and children, it isn't worth breaking up his home over feelings he allowed himself to develop in a haraam manner.
This is proactive advice.

In terms of 'empathy' I'm glad sister Umm Layth was able to apply her situation as a 'step mother'. How the constant ping pong game between houses has a mentally exhausting strain on families.

Islam is simple & beautiful.
Sister Layth made a valid point. If this man had intended for you to be his second wife in Islam then he would of presented a solid case without doubts.

You don't have to be the bad guy in this script written by the guy who is selling you this fantasy.

You just need to be aware of your Islamic rights. You deserve respect with acknowledgement through the proper Islamic channels.

I pray you get the guidance your seeking from Allah swt.

BTW Scimi I'm leaving this subject here.
Reply

Finding MEMO
03-06-2017, 09:12 PM
Edited, Edited & then Edited again
Reply

Umm♥Layth
03-06-2017, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by Finding MEMO
This is proactive advice.

In terms of 'empathy' I'm glad sister Umm Layth was able to apply her situation as a 'step mother'. How the constant ping pong game between houses has a mentally exhausting strain on families.
Yes, and to elaborate a bit further, I have heard of a grown man cry because he can't keep up with two households and the demand for time and attention from two wives. It is exhausting on everyone involved.

Then, in the case of first wife leaving and divorcing, the step mother will never get to raise the children in the manner she would like because their bio mom will always interfere and her influence will influence her other children. Being a step parent is no easy task, it isn't for the faint of heart.
Reply

Umm Abed
03-07-2017, 03:48 PM
OP you are seeing what your relationship is causing and the risk of breaking up his family.

My advice is for you to back off this is the simplest and most realistic thing to do, and also considering what the man did all was very unislamic with you from the start and he will not have second thoughts in leaving you when he feels like it, or when the pressure becomes too much. Sorry to say.
Reply

SemiraE
03-21-2017, 08:25 AM
Assalaamu 'Alaikum

This will be my last update and I really hope this *discussion* will help someone one day. And I need to thank everyone again for their answer. patience and respect.

As the majority of you said, he will dispose of me when he gets bored.

And he did indeed somehow. He is now with another girl, much younger than me.

I stopped any contact with him.

He disappointed and deceived me, and lied to me most important, about his feeling and intentions.

Good thing I stopped caring since a few weeks now so it wasn't a big hit when I saw them together.

I learned a lot of things, and never trust a married man and listen when others advice you, since they see it from outside your little balloon.

But I think most important... It opened my eyes about my beliefs, I've been raised christian but never really went to church or followed nay of it's traditions and practices, I've always been against it and considered myself a non believer. But I did think there is something that guides you, gives you back and takes away from you.

I always had this feeling that I don not belong anywhere even though I loved that place, I though I am standing still when I was accomplishing so many of my dreams and goals. I loved people but never felt whole with them.
So I started researching more and found out that my doubts have an answer in Islam, all the questions I had mostly found replies regarding belief.


I don't regret this only because it brought me to know more about Islam. But I repent from it since It was the worst thing I did in my life to another person (his wife).

Maybe one day I will find my eternal inner peace in Islam Inshallah





Reply

Simple_Person
03-21-2017, 08:52 AM
Originally Posted by SemiraE
Assalaamu 'Alaikum

This will be my last update and I really hope this *discussion* will help someone one day. And I need to thank everyone again for their answer. patience and respect.

As the majority of you said, he will dispose of me when he gets bored.

And he did indeed somehow. He is now with another girl, much younger than me.

I stopped any contact with him.

He disappointed and deceived me, and lied to me most important, about his feeling and intentions.

Good thing I stopped caring since a few weeks now so it wasn't a big hit when I saw them together.

I learned a lot of things, and never trust a married man and listen when others advice you, since they see it from outside your little balloon.

But I think most important... It opened my eyes about my beliefs, I've been raised christian but never really went to church or followed nay of it's traditions and practices, I've always been against it and considered myself a non believer. But I did think there is something that guides you, gives you back and takes away from you.

I always had this feeling that I don not belong anywhere even though I loved that place, I though I am standing still when I was accomplishing so many of my dreams and goals. I loved people but never felt whole with them.
So I started researching more and found out that my doubts have an answer in Islam, all the questions I had mostly found replies regarding belief.


I don't regret this only because it brought me to know more about Islam. But I repent from it since It was the worst thing I did in my life to another person (his wife).

Maybe one day I will find my eternal inner peace in Islam Inshallah




Wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullah,

Sister, sometimes the Creator will put some very very odd things on our path that FINALLY will make us ponder. While we already see many odd things, but they have become normal and thus we will not see them as strange things. Within Islam a person as far as i know cannot marry a person if the parents do not agree with it, but this not agreeing, MUST HAVE A LEGIT reason. So just because somebody is not a millionaire is not a legit reason. Also there is much wisdom in the Islamic way of marrying. Also no direct contact with the person you are marrying only with another person being in your presence. There is even more, but you will in'sha'Allah one day also know about those.

Do not always just listen to people without analyzing their advice. Listen to their advice but ask questions. If you cannot refute their argument/advice with logic, rationality and reason than they might have a point and valuable advice. Some people will because of envy deny you good. So always careful to judge the advice before applying it.

I am glad that you had not witnessed and experienced all the drama and much suffering that would have come after the marriage. I hope you have learned a lot, please do not become negative inside your heart. Learn from it and be careful. As Muslims we know, that NO practicing God fearing male Muslim would approach you as how he had approached you. The God fearing practicing male Muslim would rather look down and walk past you without giving you any attention. As your beauty and character belong to your spouse not to him to enjoy.

I wish you all the best and you know where to find us. Around the corner at starbucks with the big sign saying www.islamicboard.com :statisfie
Reply

Eric H
03-21-2017, 08:52 AM
Greetings and peace be with you SemiraE;

I am so sorry that you have had to go through all this pain, but somewhere there is a husband for you.

God works in mysterious ways, and there is a great need for all of us to search for God. I have heard it said, that inside everyone of us is a 'God hole'. If we try and fill this hole with the things of this world like relationships, cars, houses, holidays having a good time, etc, we never start to fill the 'God hole, and we have a sense that something is missing.

I don't think you can search for God on your own, you need to be a part of a community. When we start to put God first, then things like relationships take on a greater meaning, marriage has to be for life, until death do us part. A part of your journey in life is over, there are now the chances for new beginnings.

Life is a journey always one day at a time. Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a great mystery, Lord grant me the wisdom, peace and serenity to live this day and every day, knowing that you hold me in the palm of your hand.

In the spirit of searching for God, blessings,

Eric
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sister herb
03-21-2017, 09:27 AM
Salam alaykum

Good luck to you for your searching of inner peace. If you ever need some advice, we are here to wait you and your questions. I don´t say we are experts as we all are still studing and searching (maybe rest of our lives) but we try our best.
Reply

Umm♥Layth
03-21-2017, 10:14 AM
Asalaam Aleikum sister,

I'm so sorry you had to experience this although you are so blessed it didn't go further like it does for many. I'm happy to hear that you are finding answers, I know that feeling! Get up in the middle of the night and sincerely ask God for guidance, more answers and clarity. You will be amazed :)

If you need to reach out, please feel free to do so. I wish you the very best in this life and the hereafter <3
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Finding MEMO
03-23-2017, 10:23 PM
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