Why don't Muslims respect the rights of non Muslims and "heretics"?

[Mustafa16]

Horrendous and systematic persecution of bahais in Iran (and everywhere)
Horrendous and systematic persecution of Gulenists in Turkey (and not even because they are considered heretics, but that certainly helps)
Horrendous and systematic persecution of Ahmadis in Pakistan and Palestine.
Horrendous abuse of Christians
Horrendous abuse of Jews
genocide against yazidis
sunni-shia conflict
what the heck is wrong with the muslim world? we complain about the abuse of Muslims in Burma, Kashmir, Palestine, Syria (which by the way, is also a place where yezidis and Christians are being butchered) and east Turkestan, the CAR in Africa, etc.
to be a muslim is to stand up for human rights anywhere and everywhere......
why do we only complain about ourselves? we hardly complain for the rights of non muslims, unless we live in the lands of the kuffar and fear lynching or hate crimes, but in the dar al islam, we don't fear, we let loose.....human beings are worthy of being treated with dignity....how would you like it if that was your sister, your daughter, your mother, your son, your brother, your friend, your father, etc.?
we complain about how human rights groups make "misleading reports" about Islamic countries....how is it misleading when you are not allowed to criticize your ruler because he is king or president or prime minister, where heads of state are thieves who hoard billions in wealth on enormous palaces, where corruption is rampant, where journalists are jailed, where insulting a leader IS A CRIME! where torture is rampant, where you are guilty until proven innocent....has anyone ever read the life of our Prophet (PBUH) and his companions? a kharijite came and insulted Umar (RA) in the masjid! they told Umar (RA) to react, but he said, he has a right to say what he wants...! astaghfirullah I am ashamed to be associated with the likes of Palestine, turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, etc.

[Simple_Person]

Yo brother, have you forgotten the Kurds by accident?

[Eric H]

Greetings d peace be with you Mustafa16; thanks for starting this thread,

Although the Jews were God's chosen people, they had strict laws regarding how they should treat foreigners living in Israel.

Ezekiel 47
21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.

Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Justice seems best served when we seek it for those who are different to us.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

[sister herb]

"Why don't Muslims respect the rights of non Muslims and "heretics"?"

The majority of people of this world have some religion and most of the atheists too follow some moral codes. Still here is wars, torturing, murders, abusing, rapes, discrimination, racism etc. Why? I see the basic reason is that people don´t follow the values and rules of their religions or other moral code systems. Muslims* don´t follow them as they too are weak and ignorant and their "human nature" is greed and incapable of empathy. That´s not because they are Muslims but because they are human beings. And same with other religions.

What we can do for this situation? Blame others because they don´t follow their values? No, we have to try our best to follow them by ourself and by this show the good example for others.

* Note: Some do, some are good and god-fearing people of course. Excuse me, I didn´t mean to generalize. And same goes also to others, not only for Muslims.

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[noraina]

Not specifically Muslims. Why can't people just respect the rights of others?

Most of these injustices you mentioned happen in war-torn countries or nations with an oppressive government. An unjust leader or an unjust war can turn some people into monsters when they forget their basic human compassion - and that's when we see these kind of things happening.

I suppose when a Muslim commits injustices it is particularly sad, because we as an ummah are meant to be enlightened and guided by the teachings of Islam and particularly the firm command to be just, we're meant to be an example for other communities in terms of our morals, character and actions. But this is not the case for everyone.

Islam as a religion is perfect, Muslims are not. At the end of the day, this injustice is a human failing - and if you fail to abide by your religion, you will go astray and fall into those human failings. I think it's sad when anyone is persecuted, whatever their religion may be.

[Simple_Person]

Not specifically Muslims. Why can't people just respect the rights of others?

Most of these injustices you mentioned happen in war-torn countries or nations with an oppressive government. An unjust leader or an unjust war can turn some people into monsters when they forget their basic human compassion - and that's when we see these kind of things happening.

I suppose when a Muslim commits injustices it is particularly sad, because we as an ummah are meant to be enlightened and guided by the teachings of Islam and particularly the firm command to be just, we're meant to be an example for other communities in terms of our morals, character and actions. But this is not the case for everyone.

Islam as a religion is perfect, Muslims are not. At the end of the day, this injustice is a human failing - and if you fail to abide by your religion, you will go astray and fall into those human failings. I think it's sad when anyone is persecuted, whatever their religion may be.

I often try to find the root cause of things when i think about them. In case of Muslims and this, every time i come to the root cause being the foreign policy of western countries. Dictators have been placed in those countries because of that, people are being deprived of education, deprived of the knowledge of human civilization and all sort of perspectives. When these simple things are being prevented for somebody to learn, one cannot know if it might be good or bad. They create their kind of rulings based on how little they know. Somebody might know for example of the good sides of communism, but if you are prevented from knowing that communism in real life failed, you will keep on wanting that idea to be realized in society.

This exactly has happened to Muslims. Muslims know very little and understand very little. When the mind is not being nourished with new ideas and things to process, people will have rather a subjective view on everything.

We then arrive to the question of why is it that the foreign policy of western countries want to prevent Muslims in the Middle East to flourish? To that question i have come to a few conclusions.

- When Muslims unite once again, a REAL Islamic Caliphate will arise once again. If this happens, you can imagine from Morocco to Indonesia. Besides that Jihad will be applied on every place where Muslims are being oppressed. When a REAL Islamic Caliphate would arise, equality once again will be applied. The REAL Justice. When this happens, people of other faiths can compare things. To know what you find more delicious you must first taste both food. When they see the justice within Islamic Law, they can compare that with their OWN law. This making people convert to Islam and live within the Islamic Caliphate. This Islamic Caliphate, doesn't need anything from any other country. We have water to fertile ground to temperature to fossil fuels to be self sufficient. Trade would become part of the world that despise western world. For example, there would be trade with south America, as many because of CIA-caused wars have started to distrust US. Russia, China, India, ..large part of Asia and Africa would start trade with the Muslims. Western countries would suddenly become very small. Knowledge would become abundant among the Muslims and people of other faiths that have joined the trade and mutual interest. Pakistan already has the A-bomb which would make the Islamic Caliphate also a nuclear power not to mess with it. Besides that around 1.6 BILLION people being part of this Caliphate.

- Another conclusion that i came to, if such a Islamic Caliphate would arise, Israel would for example no longer exist. Corrupt people in power in those western countries would be killed for their corruption by the people. As the lies no longer work. The mask would be taken off.

- Fiat money (paper money) would stop existing, but gold and silver once again would be used as currency. So the current corrupt and fake monetary system would collapse not being in the benefit for the people that want to control you.

- People no longer would become sheep because of media, but knowledge and wisdom arise among all people. Which is NOT a good thing for the people in power.

- Knowledge was once part of the Islamic Caliphate. If people wanted to learn and gain knowledge they went to Baghdad. US knew this and that is why you see they try to prevent people gaining knowledge or hold of scientists. Look at those scientists back in Nazi Germany. They got a place in US.


From all the religions Islam is being attacked the most. This is sort of a confirmation that Islam holds the truth or the true path that they don't want you to know.

So again, just prevent people to education, then you succeed in somebody to rise and conquer.

But they plan and Allah plans. Allah is the best of planners.

[Mustafa16]

Yo brother, have you forgotten the Kurds by accident?

woops...sorry, did forget the Kurds by accident....i agree, what the Turks and other Muslims are doing to the kurds is horrendous.....

[azc]

Your assessment is questionable. Will you elaborate it..?

[Mustafa16]

Your assessment is questionable. Will you elaborate it..?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...A1'%C3%ADs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E...Turkish_purges
http://www.shaber3.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...amic_countries
https://euobserver.com/foreign/136568

oh, forgot again...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...ople_in_Turkey

[azc]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persec...A1'%C3%ADs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadishttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E...Turkish_purgeshttp://www.shaber3.com/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...amic_countrieshttps://euobserver.com/foreign/136568oh, forgot again...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...ople_in_Turkey

so wiki is your source....? Brother will you define terrorism..?

[Mustafa16]

so wiki is your source....? Brother will you define terrorism..?

true oppression by the aggressor is making the world view the oppressed as the aggressor, and that is what the US has done with Muslims in general, and that is what Turks have done with Gulenists...
you obviously didnt read the other sources, namely euobserver and shaber3....also, read this...
http://hizmetnews.com/ I define terrorism as using terror against innocents for political gain.....that is what the US and Muslims have done to each other, and that is what the Turks have done to Gulenists.

[Mustafa16]

so wiki is your source....? Brother will you define terrorism..?

also, are you Turkish, brother?????? well, keep this in mind...if you are....i will show no tribalism in favor of you because you are Turkish...i do not define myself by my Turkishness, rather, i hate it.......and i define myself and others by the actions they take, not where they are from....

[Mustafa16]

so wiki is your source....? Brother will you define terrorism..?

and besides, i am what you would call a "self hating turk" at this point, or, as turks like to call it, "vatan haini!"

[azc]

true oppression by the aggressor is making the world view the oppressed as the aggressor, and that is what the US has done with Muslims in general, and that is what Turks have done with Gulenists...you obviously didnt read the other sources, namely euobserver and shaber3....also, read this...http://hizmetnews.com/ I define terrorism as using terror against innocents for political gain.....that is what the US and Muslims have done to each other, and that is what the Turks have done to Gulenists.

see what's the ratio of crimes against humanity from both sides...?

[Mustafa16]

see what's the ratio of crimes against humanity from both sides...?

id say muslims have committed more atrocities, but even if they haven't, an injustice is still an injustice, even if the other side is doing it.....two wrongs dont make a right. we, as muslims, need to look at OUR OWN behavior, especially if we are truly the people of al-haqq. and what did the gulenists, bahais and ahmadis do to turkey, iran, and pakistan respectively to deserve this oppression? what ratio? were talking about religious minorities here, not nation to nation conflict

[AbdurRahman.]

brother you left out the right of sunni muslims! :Emoji29:

sunni muslims rights should be respected too; shia always killing us in syria, yemen etc etc :Emoji29:

[sister herb]

^ You are right - every people´s rights should be respected.

[Serinity]

:salam:

Depends on what we call respect, and what it is, and in what given situation.

Allahu alam.

[Mustafa16]

brother you left out the right of sunni muslims! :Emoji29:

sunni muslims rights should be respected too; shia always killing us in syria, yemen etc etc :Emoji29:

true, and with the backing of the ayatollah, in iran. horrible. but sunnis should also distinguish between Shiite militiamen and Shiite civilians who happen to live in the region. both massacres occur, and are human rights abuses, and I worry about the prospect of Saudi arabia going bankrupt, because as crooked as they are, iran will fill the vacuum and massacre sunnis.

[azc]

id say muslims have committed more atrocities, but even if they haven't, an injustice is still an injustice, even if the other side is doing it.....two wrongs dont make a right. we, as muslims, need to look at OUR OWN behavior, especially if we are truly the people of al-haqq. and what did the gulenists, bahais and ahmadis do to turkey, iran, and pakistan respectively to deserve this oppression? what ratio? were talking about religious minorities here, not nation to nation conflict

Are you a Muslim...?

[Mustafa16]

Are you a Muslim...?

Yes, and a Sunni one. But I was referring more to the present day, not the days of (direct) colonialism.

[azc]

Yes, and a Sunni one. But I was referring more to the present day, not the days of (direct) colonialism.

how many nonmuslims have been killed by Muslims in last 2 decades, i wish to see reality of this allegation, In sha Allah

[azc]

@Mustafa16 : ''Landmark research proves that the US-led ‘war on terror’ has killed as many as 2 million people, but this is a fraction of Western responsibility for deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan over the last two decadesLast month, the Washington DC-based Physicians for Social Responsibility (PRS) released a landmark studyconcluding that the death toll from 10 years of the “War on Terror” since the 9/11 attacks is at least 1.3 million, and could be as high as 2 million........... http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns...-1990-39149394

[sister herb]

how many nonmuslims have been killed by Muslims in last 2 decades, i wish to see reality of this allegation, In sha Allah

What this kind of matter has to do with treating non-Muslims and minorities with respect? How many "they" have killed doesn´t justify "us" to mistreat others.

[azc]

What this kind of matter has to do with treating non-Muslims and minorities with respect? How many "they" have killed doesn´t justify "us" to mistreat others.

his discussion is not limited to respect or disrespect

[sister herb]

Anyways, we should seek our way out from kind of thinking that the mankind is divided into the two parts: we and them. We should actively looking for what is common between us, not what separate us. Now we all have locked to the two pole thinking: non-Muslims and Muslims, shias and sunnis, Christians and Muslims, minorities and majorities. We all are human beings and time of separation to different clans, groups etc. only keeps us separated and help those whose find some personal benefits from this kind of separation happy and satisfied.

Well, kind of world where all people see themselves as part of "us all" is still far in the future. Unfortunately.

[Simple_Person]

Anyways, we should seek our way out from kind of thinking that the mankind is divided into the two parts: we and them. We should actively looking for what is common between us, not what separate us. Now we all have locked to the two pole thinking: non-Muslims and Muslims, shias and sunnis, Christians and Muslims, minorities and majorities. We all are human beings and time of separation to different clans, groups etc. only keeps us separated and help those whose find some personal benefits from this kind of separation happy and satisfied.

Well, kind of world where all people see themselves as part of "us all" is still far in the future. Unfortunately.

Well to be honest, i do think of we and them.

Definition of we?
People who are honest, being Muslim, Christian, Jew, atheist, agnostic, Hindu ..you name it.

Definition of them?
People who are dishonest, being Muslim, Christian, Jew, Atheist, Agnostic, Hindu..you name it.

[hisnameiszzz]

I think the title should be "why don't people respect the rights of other people".

I'm unsure why religion is brought into it. I am sure if you researched far and wide, most religions have been perpetrators against another religion at some point.

The title makes it sound like Muslims are nothing but a bunch of savages who go round battering people and pinching everything they own and killing everything in sight which is completely untrue.

[Mustafa16]

how many nonmuslims have been killed by Muslims in last 2 decades, i wish to see reality of this allegation, In sha Allah

how many Muslims have been killed by Muslims in the last 2 decades? How many have been tortured, jailed unjustly, etc.?

[azc]

how many Muslims have been killed by Muslims in the last 2 decades? How many have been tortured, jailed unjustly, etc.?

it is said, '' all Muslims aren't terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims'' therefore, Nobody kills a Muslim but Muslim... Cheer up Man...!

[Mustafa16]

it is said, '' all Muslims aren't terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims'' therefore, Nobody kills a Muslim but Muslim... Cheer up Man...!

do you have any idea what people in the gulen jamaat my family is a part of has had to go through at the hands of dictator Erdogan, all because of stupid lies and false accusations of an unfree media?

[azc]

do you have any idea what people in the gulen jamaat my family is a part of has had to go through at the hands of dictator Erdogan, all because of stupid lies and false accusations of an unfree media?

Now you've taken U turn. All your allegations on Muslims are narrowed down to what is happening in turkey against guleten. I don't know what is the internal conflict your country is facing. If your community is being targeted by government unjustly, then it's wrong. I've full sympathy with you and your community but this link says something else... http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...132018415.html

[Mustafa16]

Now you've taken U turn. All your allegations on Muslims are narrowed down to what is happening in turkey against guleten. I don't know what is the internal conflict your country is facing. If your community is being targeted by government unjustly, then it's wrong. I've full sympathy with you and your community but this link says something else... http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...132018415.html

first of all, Aljazeera is a load of baloney and is a mouth piece for sunni extremists......second, it is not just gulenists....bahais, people in Darfur, ahmadis, Syrians, Iraqis, Yazidis, Christians, sunni vs shia, jews, south Asians in gulf states, blacks in gulf states, etc.

[azc]

first of all, Aljazeera is a load of baloney and is a mouth piece for sunni extremists......second, it is not just gulenists....bahais, people in Darfur, ahmadis, Syrians, Iraqis, Yazidis, Christians, sunni vs shia, jews, south Asians in gulf states, blacks in gulf states, etc.

who are behind the curtain....? Scroll it a bit....

[azc]

@Mustafa 16 : plz read it https://www.islamicboard.com/general...ml#post2951888

[Mustafa16]

@Mustafa 16 : plz read it https://www.islamicboard.com/general...ml#post2951888

so Jewish people are trying to take over the world since 1903? first off, the overwhelming consensus of historians is that it is a forgery. second, I find it laughable that a book written by the same people who were committing pograms against the Jewish people, could possibly claim that the Jews were, at the time of their persecution, plotting to overthrow the world governments.....it was simply made up by the Russian elite who were abusing their OWN people (the Russians) by forcing the majority of people into serfdom while the few enjoyed luxury, to justify their oppression. keep in mind the same people who supported that book, opposed the "Zionist lenin"......at the time when communism was on the rise....how convenient....

[Mustafa16]

@azc the primary problems with the Islamist that they blame all of their problems on other people, be it jews, Christians, americans, Zionists, etc....and they will shove their beliefs down others throats all the while they themselves do not practice what they preach, nor act morally in general.

[azc]

so Jewish people are trying to take over the world since 1903? first off, the overwhelming consensus of historians is that it is a forgery. second, I find it laughable that a book written by the same people who were committing pograms against the Jewish people, could possibly claim that the Jews were, at the time of their persecution, plotting to overthrow the world governments.....it was simply made up by the Russian elite who were abusing their OWN people (the Russians) by forcing the majority of people into serfdom while the few enjoyed luxury, to justify their oppression. keep in mind the same people who supported that book, opposed the "Zionist lenin"......at the time when communism was on the rise....how convenient....

your comments regarding this book are welcomed in in its thread

[Mustafa16]

Now you've taken U turn. All your allegations on Muslims are narrowed down to what is happening in turkey against guleten. I don't know what is the internal conflict your country is facing. If your community is being targeted by government unjustly, then it's wrong. I've full sympathy with you and your community but this link says something else... http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...132018415.html

also, gulenists don't believe gulen is the Mahdi, I have not once heard a gulenist claim that gulen was the Mahdi.

[azc]

also, gulenists don't believe gulen is the Mahdi, I have not once heard a gulenist claim that gulen was the Mahdi.

there is no smoke without fire....

[Mustafa16]

there is no smoke without fire....

it's a false accusation. period.

[azc]

http://hizmetnews.com/18603/fethulla...n-view-israel/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/osman-...s-real-mission

[sister herb]

I think the title should be "why don't people respect the rights of other people".

I'm unsure why religion is brought into it. I am sure if you researched far and wide, most religions have been perpetrators against another religion at some point.

The title makes it sound like Muslims are nothing but a bunch of savages who go round battering people and pinching everything they own and killing everything in sight which is completely untrue.

I agree that the title is wrong. But it should to be something like "Gulenists vs Erdogan supporters". OP goes again and again back to this subject and it makes discussion hard to follow or take part when others aren´t sure what´s the subject we should discuss.

[Simple_Person]

I agree that the title is wrong. But it should to be something like "Gulenists vs Erdogan supporters". OP goes again and again back to this subject and it makes discussion hard to follow or take part when others aren´t sure what´s the subject we should discuss.

Funny thing is, both the groups in general claim each of the groups follow Islam and both of the groups have been influenced by Said Nursî. However what Said Nursî was advocating and what these both groups are advocating has become totally something else. While Said Nursî wanted Islam and science as those by definition don't contradict one another, both the Gulen movement and AKP instead give the mask of Islam..while promoting nationalism by majority. Just look at Erdogan. Back when AKP slowly became popular one could say..they are following Islam. Now look at Erdogan, all you see is nationalism. The same with Gulen movement. This is for example the fitna for them. When you suddenly get hold of power, the REAL nature of a human being is shown. By consensus i think we Muslims agree that we Muslims should take our distance from ISIS. While dictators in the Middle East were and still are supporting them. This also being AKP. Gulen movement being no better. As long as a movement is trying to promote nationalism in any kind, this by default is a no go. It is like saying..drink this glass of water (education), but every glass of water by default contains 1 drop of oil (nationalism). (which means it ruins all the water in that glass.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Said_Nurs%C3%AE

[azc]

Hiding behind the ruse of ''oppressed - gulenets'' he is attacking on Islam, Muslims and even prophet s.a.w in recent threads.

I agree that the title is wrong. But it should to be something like "Gulenists vs Erdogan supporters". OP goes again and again back to this subject and it makes discussion hard to follow or take part when others aren´t sure what´s the subject we should discuss.

[Simple_Person]

Hiding behind the ruse of ''oppressed - gulenets'' he is attacking on Islam, Muslims and even prophet s.a.w in recent threads.

A person can say X, but by intention meaning Y. When somebody digs in about the X, you can see Y instead. So you saying attacking Islam, Muslims or Rasullah(saws), sorry bro..but this topic especially when you began to dig in, it showed rather ..whole argument of AKP vs Gulen movement instead (the Y thing and not the X thing)

Now knowing this. Has this something to do with Islam, Muslims and Rasullah(saws)? Looking from all kind of perspectives i do not see anything that even somehow refers to it.

So i guess for all Erdogan supporters and all Gulen supporter go and gather and have your separate topic or maybe even in this topic but change the topic name to "Erdogan vs Gulen". That way islam, Muslims and Rasullah(saws) have nothing to do with it. :).

[azc]

A person can say X, but by intention meaning Y. When somebody digs in about the X, you can see Y instead. So you saying attacking Islam, Muslims or Rasullah(saws), sorry bro..but this topic especially when you began to dig in, it showed rather ..whole argument of AKP vs Gulen movement instead (the Y thing and not the X thing)Now knowing this. Has this something to do with Islam, Muslims and Rasullah(saws)? Looking from all kind of perspectives i do not see anything that even somehow refers to it.So i guess for all Erdogan supporters and all Gulen supporter go and gather and have your separate topic or maybe even in this topic but change the topic name to "Erdogan vs Gulen". That way islam, Muslims and Rasullah(saws) have nothing to do with it. :).

I searched the thread but it has been deleted by mod otherwise I could show you... Just wait I'll point out if he starts such threads again

[Simple_Person]

I searched the thread but it has been deleted by mod otherwise I could show you... Just wait I'll point out if he starts such threads again

Often when some people are being oppressed they say things that by logic, rationality and reason don't make sense. For example i as a Kurd myself, witness and hear Kurds blaming Islam for their oppression. While logic, rationality and reason says Islam has NOTHING to do with it. Islam in fact is on the side of the oppressed and not of the oppressor. So the oppressors are rather the people who claim they are Muslims and are doing the oppression.

So if indeed this is the case as you say it is, i think his argument misses rather some logic, rationality and reason. Erdogan says ..Islam this and Islam that. But his actions says something that have NOTHING to do with Islam. So even if he blames Islam, that would be a very weak argument. Instead he rather has to blame Erdogan for the Gulen prosecution. I have NOTHING to do with Erdogan or Gulen. If they murder each other..i do not care. Because neither one of the two groups really is trying to represent Islam in the smallest matter. What you see is really the grasp of power and control over Turkey and the Turks. What has this seriously to do with Islam, Muslims or Rasullah(saws)?

[sister herb]

I don´t think the meaning is attack against Islam. Human right situation in Turkey is worrying and being concerned about it doesn´t mean anyone is against Islam. It of course may look like if someone is think that Erdogan and his followers represent "pure Islamic views" but ather all, he is politician and his ways to rule look more or less suspicious.

I have read before in here opinions that Erdogan really is the true friend of Islam (mostly as he has supported women to use hijab) but if ít´s true that he has thrown many of his political opponents and many others to the prison, his "pure Islamic methods" might not be so pure at all.

Well, as title of the thread might be wrong, I am not sure did I just wrote off topic or not.

[Simple_Person]

I don´t think the meaning is attack against Islam. Human right situation in Turkey is worrying and being concerned about it doesn´t mean anyone is against Islam. It of course may look like if someone is think that Erdogan and his followers represent "pure Islamic views" but ather all, he is politician and his ways to rule look more or less suspicious.

I have read before in here opinions that Erdogan really is the true friend of Islam (mostly as he has supported women to use hijab) but if ít´s true that he has thrown many of his political opponents and many others to the prison, his "pure Islamic methods" might not be so pure at all.

Well, as title of the thread might be wrong, I am not sure did I just wrote off topic or not.

Sister, as an advice please don't take "human rights" seriously. Nobody gives a one thought about human rights. When a country loses in their struggle to meet their interests, THEN they suddenly talk about human rights. To give you a example. You think what is happening in Turkey is just recently? This has been happening for almost 100 years. Prosecution of many people. Everybody who speaks against the tyrant, the person is thrown in jail. Everybody who has another opinion and speaks this in public that isn't like the masses of the people living there is thrown in jail.

The question however we must ask our selves is why suddenly now have we started hearing about?

That is because Turkey is objecting the interests of the west. In the past Turkey's interests were the same as western interests. However Turkey with Erdogan wants to become also a super power and they have shown this clearly. Erdogan wants to restart Ottoman rule kind of mentality under his control. As he knows the majority in Turkey as well in the Middle East are Muslims..so using this support to gain what he wants. ..but not really Islamic Caliphate..rather Turkish Caliphate under their kind of "Turkish Islam". Which is, as long as you say what i want to hear..you are a "good Muslim" =_=!.

So forget about it. Human rights stuff happen everywhere not only in Turkey. In the US if you speak the truth you are branded as a terrorist. In EU if you speak the truth you are branded as a terrorist. Why don't we hear about this? Media. All propaganda, that don't tell you what is going on.

Good documentary is "Dirty Wars (2013)" that i would recommend you to watch.

[sister herb]

Thanks about your advice but it´s quite too late for me. I have been human rights activist last 25 years or by other words - labeled as terrorist last 25 years. If I have to speak against acts of so-called democratic west when they violate human rights I don´t hesitate to do so but as well, I don´t hesitate to criticize human rights violation made by those co-called Islamic leaders.

Enemies of humanity - just same from which part of the world or ideology they come from - are also my enemies. ;)

But of course, talking about human right violations is always also part of the political game. And in political games timing is very important.

[azc]

Often when some people are being oppressed they say things that by logic, rationality and reason don't make sense. For example i as a Kurd myself, witness and hear Kurds blaming Islam for their oppression. While logic, rationality and reason says Islam has NOTHING to do with it. Islam in fact is on the side of the oppressed and not of the oppressor. So the oppressors are rather the people who claim they are Muslims and are doing the oppression. So if indeed this is the case as you say it is, i think his argument misses rather some logic, rationality and reason. Erdogan says ..Islam this and Islam that. But his actions says something that have NOTHING to do with Islam. So even if he blames Islam, that would be a very weak argument. Instead he rather has to blame Erdogan for the Gulen prosecution. I have NOTHING to do with Erdogan or Gulen. If they murder each other..i do not care. Because neither one of the two groups really is trying to represent Islam in the smallest matter. What you see is really the grasp of power and control over Turkey and the Turks. What has this seriously to do with Islam, Muslims or Rasullah(saws)?

the thread title was something like ''my father rejects the hadith'' and herein he wanted to prove that ma'azAllah prophet s.a.w preached violence, captivated children and got killed them, married by force, punishment of apostasy is unjust etc... Let him read him my post then see his comments... The thread didn't pertain to what is going on in turkey...

[Simple_Person]

the thread title was something like ''my father rejects the hadith'' and herein he wanted to prove that ma'azAllah prophet s.a.w preached violence, captivated children and got killed them, married by force, punishment of apostasy is unjust etc... Let him read him my post then see his comments... The thread didn't pertain to what is going on in turkey...

These are your words that you claim he has said, so excuse me but i cannot take your word for it. IF..that indeed is what it is..to people like that Muslim or non-Muslim..I say to these people stay exactly how you are. Keep believing in what you are believing. And a good day.

Honesty and dishonesty has no religion or race. If somebody comes with such a claim, this shows already that that certain individual has made up their mind already. Doesn't matter how much time you spend on them.

If you do not understand a hadith because you understand the hadith as if it is promoting violence you come and ask people guys..what is up with this? How i understand this ..it is as if it is promoting violence..can somebody comment on this. Just like the Qur'an ahadith have also their story. Narration chain, to the time to the situation, to the words lost in translation, shaheeh or not etc. etc.

So whatever it might be, if it was in the past and this indeed was true as you stated, Allah(swt) knows best how his mindset is right now. People may say something but 1 week later they can change their mind on something. However the comment/topic might still exist. That is why when i have a discussion and i am wrong. I remove/change my original comment and also thank the person who has educated/corrected me on that subject. That way nobody attacks me on something that belonged to the ignorant me of the past.

[azc]

These are your words that you claim he has said, so excuse me but i cannot take your word for it. IF..that indeed is what it is..to people like that Muslim or non-Muslim..I say to these people stay exactly how you are. Keep believing in what you are believing. And a good day.Honesty and dishonesty has no religion or race. If somebody comes with such a claim, this shows already that that certain individual has made up their mind already. Doesn't matter how much time you spend on them. If you do not understand a hadith because you understand the hadith as if it is promoting violence you come and ask people guys..what is up with this? How i understand this ..it is as if it is promoting violence..can somebody comment on this. Just like the Qur'an ahadith have also their story. Narration chain, to the time to the situation, to the words lost in translation, shaheeh or not etc. etc.So whatever it might be, if it was in the past and this indeed was true as you stated, Allah(swt) knows best how his mindset is right now. People may say something but 1 week later they can change their mind on something. However the comment/topic might still exist. That is why when i have a discussion and i am wrong. I remove/change my original comment and also thank the person who has educated/corrected me on that subject. That way nobody attacks me on something that belonged to the ignorant me of the past.

the thread was just 1 day old, till last night I saw it on the board....

[Simple_Person]

the thread was just 1 day old, till last night I saw it on the board....

Well Allah knows best if he maybe has even changed his mind in a few hours and understood some of the things the right way and he himself contacted the admins/moderators to delete the topic.

[azc]

Well Allah knows best if he maybe has even changed his mind in a few hours and understood some of the things the right way and he himself contacted the admins/moderators to delete the topic.

No, I reported to admin/mod...

[Simple_Person]

No, I reported to admin/mod...

Oke, well it is still your claim, i have not seen it myself to say that it indeed was what it was as you claim it to be.

Anyways, a person harboring such feelings about Islam..cannot hide it forever you know. Sooner or later those feelings will surface again. So we will wait and in'sha'Alla we will see it again if this is what it is.

So that was that topic and this is another topic. In that topic i would have said something, in this topic..it has nothing to do with Islam, Muslims and Rasullah(saws). Rather is the fight between to groups that are struggling to gain power and control portraying it as Islam.

[azc]

Oke, well it is still your claim, i have not seen it myself to say that it indeed was what it was as you claim it to be. Anyways, a person harboring such feelings about Islam..cannot hide it forever you know. Sooner or later those feelings will surface again. So we will wait and in'sha'Alla we will see it again if this is what it is.So that was that topic and this is another topic. In that topic i would have said something, in this topic..it has nothing to do with Islam, Muslims and Rasullah(saws). Rather is the fight between to groups that are struggling to gain power and control portraying it as Islam.

I'm not interested to convince you, simply you asked me all this so I clarified, you trust me or not isn't important. Important is that we are accountable for what we write on the board. This is our witness on the judgement day. May Allah swt give me and him hidaya and forgive our sin... Ameen

[Simple_Person]

I'm not interested to convince you, simply you asked me all this so I clarified, you trust me or not isn't important. Important is that we are accountable for what we write on the board. This is our witness on the judgement day. May Allah swt give me and him hidaya and forgive our sin... Ameen

Brother sometimes we say something that the people reading/hearing it are kind of confused. When we read our own comment or listened to what we have said we also become confused about what we just have said.

Within Islam we cannot just say indeed person X is this or that, without hearing his side also. Besides that, you guys are involved in a disagreement on something else, so when somebody is in disagreement in some other matter, then one can see all the things from an "negative" angle. Just saying this in general not saying that this is the same with you.

Having said that, there is also 70 excuses i believe for your Muslim brother/sister hadith. The only moment that i do not apply this 70 excuses is when i have tested somebody who claims he is Muslim, but i see dishonesty in him/her. Dishonest people being Muslim or not Muslim don't get even one bit of my mercy so to say. In this case in that brother as well with you, i have not read any comments or have had any discussion with you guys that i have noticed dishonesty. So in both cases i give both of you 70 excuses so to say.

[azc]

Brother sometimes we say something that the people reading/hearing it are kind of confused. When we read our own comment or listened to what we have said we also become confused about what we just have said.Within Islam we cannot just say indeed person X is this or that, without hearing his side also. Besides that, you guys are involved in a disagreement on something else, so when somebody is in disagreement in some other matter, then one can see all the things from an "negative" angle. Just saying this in general not saying that this is the same with you.Having said that, there is also 70 excuses i believe for your Muslim brother/sister hadith. The only moment that i do not apply this 70 excuses is when i have tested somebody who claims he is Muslim, but i see dishonesty in him/her. Dishonest people being Muslim or not Muslim don't get even one bit of my mercy so to say. In this case in that brother as well with you, i have not read any comments or have had any discussion with you guys that i have noticed dishonesty. So in both cases i give both of you 70 excuses so to say.

anyways.. This discussion needs rest

[aaj]

First of all, wiki is not a valid source to be going to. You would not be able to use it as a valid reference in an academic paper. Anyone can edit it and put whatever they want in there, and we have seen this done a number of times, especially zionist groups.

Secondly, what is mentioned in that wiki or western resources is often exaggerated. Based on this exaggeration and lies, muslim nations are bombed and split in half, like they did with Sudan.

Thirdly, the oppression that happens, while being unislamic and not good, is no where near whats happening in the nations you named. A little perspective on your part may help you understand that.

Iran is a shia state, they oppress sunnis as well.
Gulenists attempted coup and treason against Turkey, any nation would do the same
ahamdis/Qadiani are enemies of Islam, there are over 600 of them working in the zinoist amry and spying for them in pakistan.
sunni-shia conflict is a few centuries old, nothing new there

you are comparing those with palestine, burma, kashmir and syria?
palestine has been under occupation since 1948, all their land stolen and living in an open prison being bombed with illegal weapons and chemicals amounting to war crimes
kashmir has been under occupation since british left in 1947 and people continue to be oppressed, raped, killed in a state prison with over a million indian soldiers doing as they wish
syria, well you have to be blind to not see the genocide being committed there
Burma, the rohingya are the most oppressed minority in the world according to UN. They are facing mass rape, torture and genocide. Have you seen their pictures?
CAR, christians are committing a genocide against the muslims, even going far as killing the muslims and eating them

So are you trying to compare the oppression of other groups with genocide of these?
While no evil and oppression of any group is acceptable but to equate what others facing with the genocide and war crimes against these nations is an insult to their suffering and while your concerns for others is admirable, you lack perspective and understanding of what really is going.

So if you feel ashamed to associate with the likes of Palestine, turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, etc. Then don't. We as Muslims will stand by and for the Muslims that are being wiped out from their lands and for the sisters being kept in rape prisons to be violated every day, every hour, every minute.

So while you waste time reading useless stuff on websites, we see with our own eyes of what's happening in the world.

[Simple_Person]

Gulenists attempted coup and treason against Turkey, any nation would do the same
.

May i know based on what do you say this? As far as i have heard was Erdogan himself claiming such a thing. Watching the "coup" myself it looked like such a joke that mostly seemed like it was planned to fail. Looking even further it came to be very convenient for Erdogan to start "cleaning" Turkey from every person who was NOT pro-Erdogan. We all knew Gulen supporter were among the Turks and Erdogan have becoming a anti-Gulen. However whatever happens, it is being branded terrorist act blamed on Gulen. Based on what? Based on the "truthfulness of Erdogan".

So i agree with you wikipedia not being a good source for your information, however i am kind of curious especially about this one where you base your conclusion on.

[aaj]

May i know based on what do you say this? As far as i have heard was Erdogan himself claiming such a thing. Watching the "coup" myself it looked like such a joke that mostly seemed like it was planned to fail. Looking even further it came to be very convenient for Erdogan to start "cleaning" Turkey from every person who was NOT pro-Erdogan. We all knew Gulen supporter were among the Turks and Erdogan have becoming a anti-Gulen. However whatever happens, it is being branded terrorist act blamed on Gulen. Based on what? Based on the "truthfulness of Erdogan".

So i agree with you wikipedia not being a good source for your information, however i am kind of curious especially about this one where you base your conclusion on.

if you search online you will find many news outlets stating this. The renegade troops were gulenists. There is a thread on this forum that started when that incident happened. I suggest looking that up, plenty of information in there.

[sister herb]

There isn´t real evidencies that the coup was planned by gulanists. Have they admitted it was? In kind of political situation we never can be sure if someone who is firmly against the gulanist movement and say something alike about them. It all may be only propaganda against the political opponents.

[Simple_Person]

if you search online you will find many news outlets stating this. The renegade troops were gulenists. There is a thread on this forum that started when that incident happened. I suggest looking that up, plenty of information in there.

Wait just a minute. "many news outlets". What was their source? "The renegade troops were gulenists"...based on what do you claim this? Again don't get me wrong.. i am as pro-Gulen as that i am pro-Erdogan..which is rather not pro both of them. However, i don't go by feeling although i may not be pro-somebody or anti-somebody. I want clear sources.

So again, based on what i saw and how the "coup" was applied..it all was looking like being planned to fail.

I would suggest to watch how the coup against Hugo Chávez was done. THAT WAS A COUP!!..So if we would compare, the one in Turkey looked like a drill you could say.

[sister herb]

I have seen that military coups are normal way to change the political power from one party to another in many countries - like in Egypt. If that´s normal part of their political culture, why to call those troops as "renegade"?

Ooops yep of course. The winner makes decisions whose are heros and whose are villains.

[Mustafa16]

First of all, wiki is not a valid source to be going to. You would not be able to use it as a valid reference in an academic paper. Anyone can edit it and put whatever they want in there, and we have seen this done a number of times, especially zionist groups.

Secondly, what is mentioned in that wiki or western resources is often exaggerated. Based on this exaggeration and lies, muslim nations are bombed and split in half, like they did with Sudan.

Thirdly, the oppression that happens, while being unislamic and not good, is no where near whats happening in the nations you named. A little perspective on your part may help you understand that.

Iran is a shia state, they oppress sunnis as well.
Gulenists attempted coup and treason against Turkey, any nation would do the same
ahamdis/Qadiani are enemies of Islam, there are over 600 of them working in the zinoist amry and spying for them in pakistan.
sunni-shia conflict is a few centuries old, nothing new there

you are comparing those with palestine, burma, kashmir and syria?
palestine has been under occupation since 1948, all their land stolen and living in an open prison being bombed with illegal weapons and chemicals amounting to war crimes
kashmir has been under occupation since british left in 1947 and people continue to be oppressed, raped, killed in a state prison with over a million indian soldiers doing as they wish
syria, well you have to be blind to not see the genocide being committed there
Burma, the rohingya are the most oppressed minority in the world according to UN. They are facing mass rape, torture and genocide. Have you seen their pictures?
CAR, christians are committing a genocide against the muslims, even going far as killing the muslims and eating them

So are you trying to compare the oppression of other groups with genocide of these?
While no evil and oppression of any group is acceptable but to equate what others facing with the genocide and war crimes against these nations is an insult to their suffering and while your concerns for others is admirable, you lack perspective and understanding of what really is going.

So if you feel ashamed to associate with the likes of Palestine, turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, etc. Then don't. We as Muslims will stand by and for the Muslims that are being wiped out from their lands and for the sisters being kept in rape prisons to be violated every day, every hour, every minute.

So while you waste time reading useless stuff on websites, we see with our own eyes of what's happening in the world.

https://euobserver.com/foreign/136568
http://aktifhaber.com/dunya/nato-erd...ti-h91671.html

[aaj]

https://euobserver.com/foreign/136568
http://aktifhaber.com/dunya/nato-erd...ti-h91671.html

And you expect us to believe what western intelligence agencies are saying? the ones engaged in kidnapping and torturing Muslims and war propaganda to further their national interest?

I have seen that military coups are normal way to change the political power from one party to another in many countries - like in Egypt. If that´s normal part of their political culture, why to call those troops as "renegade"?

yes, coup are one way to change government. Turkish military is very secular, a Remanent of kemal era , that has overthrown several previous governments when they thought it was getting too islamic for their secularism. The military tried a few times with the current government as well but failed. This coup, however, was different. It was not a military wide coup, rather it was a small faction holding gulenist ideology and the fact that the people came out on the streets to stop them shows what the people of the nation want. Egypt is a different story, those are puppets put in place by the west who have been killing and raping their own citizens, especially young college students.

[Simple_Person]

And you expect us to believe what western intelligence agencies are saying? the ones engaged in kidnapping and torturing Muslims and war propaganda to further their national interest?


yes, coup are one way to change government. Turkish military is very secular, a Remanent of kemal era , that has overthrown several previous governments when they thought it was getting too islamic for their secularism. The military tried a few times with the current government as well but failed. This coup, however, was different. It was not a military wide coup, rather it was a small faction holding gulenist ideology and the fact that the people came out on the streets to stop them shows what the people of the nation want. Egypt is a different story, those are puppets put in place by the west who have been killing and raping their own citizens, especially young college students.

I BEG you to also answer these questions, because you woken up my curiosity as well..

Wait just a minute. "many news outlets". What was their source? "The renegade troops were gulenists"...based on what do you claim this? Again don't get me wrong.. i am as pro-Gulen as that i am pro-Erdogan..which is rather not pro both of them. However, i don't go by feeling although i may not be pro-somebody or anti-somebody. I want clear sources.

[aaj]

I BEG you to also answer these questions, because you woken up my curiosity as well..

Wait just a minute. "many news outlets". What was their source? "The renegade troops were gulenists"...based on what do you claim this? Again don't get me wrong.. i am as pro-Gulen as that i am pro-Erdogan..which is rather not pro both of them. However, i don't go by feeling although i may not be pro-somebody or anti-somebody. I want clear sources.

I would suggest looking up the thread when this coup attempt happened. I think plenty of useful information was shared in there.

[Simple_Person]

I would suggest looking up the thread when this coup attempt happened. I think plenty of useful information was shared in there.

What is that topic called?

btw, i will get back to you if i find things based on assumptions and simple hatred. Know i ask very critical questions and if something is based on the truth, no questions is too critical.

[sister herb]

Egypt is a different story, those are puppets put in place by the west who have been killing and raping their own citizens, especially young college students.

If we believe the eye testimonies of those gulenists whose have been jailed in Turkey, they say that this is just same what Turkish government is doing for another Turkish people in jails.

And being the puppet of the West? Well, nowadays Erdogan seems to be more as the puppet of Putin, than only the West. Is it any better?

[aaj]

If we believe the eye testimonies of those gulenists whose have been jailed in Turkey, they say that this is just same what Turkish government is doing for another Turkish people in jails.

And being the puppet of the West? Well, nowadays Erdogan seems to be more as the puppet of Putin, than only the West. Is it any better?

There is a vast difference between erdogan and egypt's tyrants. One has been good for his nation and the other has not. Ask other Muslims and see how they feel about it.

What is that topic called?

btw, i will get back to you if i find things based on assumptions and simple hatred. Know i ask very critical questions and if something is based on the truth, no questions is too critical.

I don't know bro, ask Mustafa16 or search for it. look up anything related to turkish, coup or gulenist.

[Simple_Person]

-

, bro, can you give me that topic relating Turkish coup../gulenist topic.. I want to read those information that says Gulenist were behind it.

[aaj]

What is that topic called?

btw, i will get back to you if i find things based on assumptions and simple hatred. Know i ask very critical questions and if something is based on the truth, no questions is too critical.

You can also check with @ana tolin since he is turkish as well.

a quick search found this, which has mention of it as well:
https://www.islamicboard.com/world-a...im-nation.html

[sister herb]

There is a vast difference between erdogan and egypt's tyrants. One has been good for his nation and the other has not. Ask other Muslims and see how they feel about it.

I can ask. But what if those whose I ask are supporters of Sisi or gulanists? What kind of answers you think I will get?

You see, it´s not easy to find out who is right or who is wrong in kind of situation. Reality depends a lot how we want to see it and what is our personal history with this conflict, what is our background. Picture might be absolutely different if you step to the other person´s shoes and try to understand how and why he is thinking like he does and why you see these things differently.

The truth is somewhere out there and I don´t think that any of us have found it yet. But we can keep looking.

[aaj]

I can ask. But what if those whose I ask are supporters of Sisi or gulanists? What kind of answers you think I will get?

You see, it´s not easy to find out who is right or who is wrong in kind of situation. Reality depends a lot how we want to see it and what is our personal history with this conflict, what is our background. Picture might be absolutely different if you step to the other person´s shoes and try to understand how and why he is thinking like he does and why you see these things differently.

The truth is somewhere out there and I don´t think that any of us have found it yet. But we can keep looking.

No, you don't need to step in other person's shoe to see what's going on. You just need to see what each one is doing to it's people. If you ask the Muslims not native of those nations, you will find majority to be on one side. You will find them to be pro Erdogan and anti Sisi or mubarak. And this based on what they have done for their people. One unbanned the hijab and lifted some of the secularist restrictions on its citizens while the other imprisoned and killed its citizens. One had his people come out to face the tanks in support of him and while the other ran over his people with tanks. Being in the western nation, it may not be as clear for you to see but if you ask the eastern Muslims, you fill find where majority stand. Even if you don't ask any, you should be able to see with your own eyes what each ruler has done to its people. The truth is before our eyes, whether see it or not is another question.

[sister herb]

And majority of them put their own people to the prison and torture them in there - because of their political opinions. Here comes the problem: majority may support some political leader but at the same time this supported leader oppress the minority. But in kind of nations it may be difficult to know for sure who belongs to the majority and who belongs to the minority. If its very well known that sayings your opinion too loudly, may label you as being part of the minority and place you to the jail.

"One unbanned the hijab and lifted some of the secularist restrictions on its citizens while the other imprisoned and killed its citizens."

I see in this your sentence one mistake:

"One unbanned the hijab and lifted some of the secularist restrictions on its citizens and throwed his own citizens to the jails to become tortured, some beated, raped, killed because they dared to support his political opponent..."

As supporter of other side you may don´t want or can´t look at this issue objectively. You may don´t believe this at all. Also, you may not want to go out there and ask from gulenists how they have been treated with this "good leader". They might tell you only a political propaganda. The other side never spreads any kind of political propaganda, right? I mean, your side. Your side tells only the truth, the pale truth and nothing but the truth.

;)

I am not supporter of either. I am interesting only about the human rights.

You don´t need to be in the East or in the West to see what kind of world we are living.

[aaj]

and throwed his own citizens to the jails to become tortured, some beated, raped, killed because they dared to support his political opponent..."


As supporter of other side you may don´t want or can´t look at this issue objectively. You may don´t believe this at all. Also, you may not want to go out there and ask from gulenists how they have been treated with this "good leader". They might tell you only a political propaganda. The other side never spreads any kind of political propaganda, right? I mean, your side. Your side tells only the truth, the pale truth and nothing but the truth.

;)

I am not supporter of either. I am interesting only about the human rights.

You don´t need to be in the East or in the West to see what kind of world we are living.

From what we know, he has thrown in prison those who were involved in the coup. Do you have any proof of torture and rape and killing he's allegedly doing? If you are talking about death sentence then all nations have that as a punishment for treason.

Honestly, I don't know if Gulenist were behind this or not. But there's lot of things pointing to them. Such as all of the soldiers being members of the gulenist movement, Gulen in charge of largest private schools and Erdogan wanting to make all schools public, Gulen himself telling his members to infiltrate all sectors of the society (for whatever agenda he has in mind), and the fact many turkish saying they were gulenist who were behind this. Now that may not mean much to an outsider like you and me but I think the people of the nation would know whose who among them better?

[Mustafa16]

From what we know, he has thrown in prison those who were involved in the coup. Do you have any proof of torture and rape and killing he's allegedly doing? If you are talking about death sentence then all nations have that as a punishment for treason.

Honestly, I don't know if Gulenist were behind this or not. But there's lot of things pointing to them. Such as all of the soldiers being members of the gulenist movement, Gulen in charge of largest private schools and Erdogan wanting to make all schools public, Gulen himself telling his members to infiltrate all sectors of the society (for whatever agenda he has in mind), and the fact many turkish saying they were gulenist who were behind this. Now that may not mean much to an outsider like you and me but I think the people of the nation would know whose who among them better?

so schoolteachers like my uncle should be thrown in prison for the coup?

[Snel]

do you have any idea what people in the gulen jamaat my family is a part of has had to go through at the hands of dictator Erdogan, all because of stupid lies and false accusations of an unfree media?

You're not the only one. That doesn't mean you should side with the other tyrant (Gulen). Is this all about Erdogan? All middle-eastern countries are oppressive, their governments are not muslims, we have nothing to do with them.

[aaj]

so schoolteachers like my uncle should be thrown in prison for the coup?

Bro, when things like this happen then everyone gets caught up in it. If someone were to do a terrorist act in your community, you can bet the FBI will go after the whole community and especially anyone that guy associated with. And these are members of an organization.

[Mustafa16]

Bro, when things like this happen then everyone gets caught up in it. If someone were to do a terrorist act in your community, you can bet the FBI will go after the whole community and especially anyone that guy associated with. And these are members of an organization.

if someone from the local masjid goes to prison for terrorism, they are not gonna sentence all the members of that mosque for terrorism for years, as the Turks have done......we're talking about 7 day sentences (in the US) versus multiple year sentences, which the turks are doing....also, do you want to know why my uncle got arrested? for using bylock, when he doesn't even have a smartphone, and anybody with a brain would know that the bylock accusations are filthy propaganda. you trust your media, which is ranked 151st out of 180 countries in the world for press freedom, and you trust your intelligence, which is of a country that has not yet learned the true meaning of democracy or freedom....and I trust mine, the media of a free country, that has given me a good life, and whose intelligence is of a country that fought long and hard constantly for freedom. Ataturk came and offered the Turks a republic, but THEY HARDLY KNEW WHAT A REPUBLIC WAS!!!!! they lived under a rule of a sultan for most of their lives, and during the several years they didn't, it was just that, several years under ultranationalists (who took power in a coup) and then years of occupation. Turks have never fought for democracy for their own people the way the Americans have advocated in favor of civil liberties, AND THAT INCLUDES FOR MUSLIMS......yes, many Americans despise what America is doing to the Muslim world, but their voice is not heard...is there such a voice in Turkey for the (possibly brainwashed) gulenists, Armenians (whether it was a genocide or not, which I don't believe, millions died in something along the lines of a Turkish "trail of tears" like what happened to kuzey derililer (Native amercians) and had their property stolen ) kurds (who faced EXCESSIVE force as collective punishment for crimes of PKK, and were banned from speaking their own language and practicing their own culture), alevis, etc.? for those who criticize ataturk at one point, and Erdogan on another? you turks think you know so much but you have never had to struggle for anything in your entire lives, (except, ill grant you the stopping of the july 15 coup, which was likely staged) and the problem is those islamists who view the state as sacred....here in America, you can say, "nothing is sacred" but that means we have the freedom to criticize so that flaws in all ideas of the state may be outlined and made to appear. also, gulen himself condemned the coup, and took the claims of his involvement as an offense "as someone who lived through multiple military coups", and where was the intelligence reports on gulen? the minute after the coup failed, binali yildirim simply took the stage and said, "GULEN did it...let us unite" do you even have any idea how these gulenist "cells" operate?????? whether turkey will come to itself through an economic crisis, or through a bloody civil war...I don't know....but it can be compared to a mother going through painful pregnancy for 9 months and 10 days, and then a painful delivery, then the joys and pains of motherhood...

[Mustafa16]

Bro, when things like this happen then everyone gets caught up in it. If someone were to do a terrorist act in your community, you can bet the FBI will go after the whole community and especially anyone that guy associated with. And these are members of an organization.

also, I didn't hear anything from Turkish intelligence with regards to the coup, simply the testimony of hulusi akar, who is a puppet of Erdogan.....in fact, intelligence officers were banned from speaking

[Mustafa16]

Bro, when things like this happen then everyone gets caught up in it. If someone were to do a terrorist act in your community, you can bet the FBI will go after the whole community and especially anyone that guy associated with. And these are members of an organization.

did you know that 350,000 Kurdish people in the southeast are currently homeless, and hundreds of civilians have died, including hundreds who hid in a bunker that was set on fire by Turkish troops? (btw, I am NOT Kurdish, or Armenian, or alevi, or whatever)

[Mustafa16]

Bro, when things like this happen then everyone gets caught up in it. If someone were to do a terrorist act in your community, you can bet the FBI will go after the whole community and especially anyone that guy associated with. And these are members of an organization.

did you know that Erdogan instigated the coup through reports that the soldiers would be purged? this was not preplanned, it was spontaneous......

[Mustafa16]

You're not the only one. That doesn't mean you should side with the other tyrant (Gulen). Is this all about Erdogan? All middle-eastern countries are oppressive, their governments are not muslims, we have nothing to do with them.

gulen is not a tyrant, silly, he is an imam and religious scholar....to be a tyrant, you have to be the leader of a nation or terrorist organization

[Mustafa16]

Bro, when things like this happen then everyone gets caught up in it. If someone were to do a terrorist act in your community, you can bet the FBI will go after the whole community and especially anyone that guy associated with. And these are members of an organization.

also, the images on the internet of one of the supposed leaders of the coup is on the internet, and you can see he is badly bruised and bloody...this can possibly they tortured him to obtain his testimony....which happens under any authoritarian regime. also, red and watch this...
also, the images on the internet of one of the supposed leaders of the coup is on the internet, and you can see he is badly bruised and bloody...this can possibly they tortured him to obtain his testimony, and that of other "gulenists"....which happens under any authoritarian regime. also, read and see this,
also, the images on the internet of one of the supposed leaders of the coup is on the internet, and you can see he is badly bruised and bloody...this can possibly they tortured him to obtain his testimony....along with the others who claim to be "gulenist" which happens under any authoritarian regime. read this, http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/tr/c...e-country.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hSVBp-4iiU

edit: also, read this: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/turki...laundering-and

[Mustafa16]

Bro, when things like this happen then everyone gets caught up in it. If someone were to do a terrorist act in your community, you can bet the FBI will go after the whole community and especially anyone that guy associated with. And these are members of an organization.

did you know that Erdogan openly said he supports al Qaeda, by saying "why do you call al nusra terrorists???" when al nusra (as it was formerly named) was the Syrian branch of al Qaeda????? he also was involved in a corruption scandal, although God knows how stressful it is living in Turkey, you must have forgotten about it by now...

[sister herb]

Do you have any proof of torture and rape and killing he's allegedly doing?

We have here a member whose close relatives have experiences about actions of Erdogan regime. Why not listen to him (I am not sure of others but I do trust much more to the local personal information than news agencies).

But you can find also reports of torture and other violations of human rights from humanitarian organizations like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. I just don´t think you´ll believe any of them as it seems that you have already decided that Erdogan can´t never do such crimes against humanity and any kind of proves are only "gulenist propaganda".

[Simple_Person]

-

Oke, bro, i have read that topic you sent me. Let me first begin with some SERIOUS dua's as my hatred for the dishonesty has no limit.

May Allah(swt) break the back of the dishonest person being you or me and may Allah(swt) throw him the the lowest of all the hells and show him no mercy to the dishonest one being you or me. As the dishonest person is the munafiq among the Muslims and the kafir under the non-Muslims. Because the dishonest person when he knows the truth he will not admit it, which makes him the REAL unbeliever as the message of Islam has reached him/her in full but rejects it because of arrogance and pride.

Now i have said this, let me start.

You said that that topic was all the proof. I have read all the comments. The first comment was a good comment i agreed it on almost all of it (history of modern day Turkey) with the ONLY exception of saying Said Nursi was a Turk. No he was a Kurd.

1. You agree with me that that guy was wrong in this right? Nationalism is anti-Islam and thus Said Nursi was never a Turk to start with but a Kurd right?

That guy in the rest of the comments was spreading only about how "wonderful" Erdogan is and was. That people were supporting him and that evil Assad this and that. People being friends with US to undermine Islamic values.

2. If Erdogan and the Turks in general hate US and western nations that much, please do tell me why Turks haven't left them yet (NATO)? Isn't this hypocrisy?

3. Erdogan and the Turks being so "pro-oppressed" people and wanting to help the oppressed people. Are the Kurds slaves then? That guy didn't even utter one word about Kurdish oppression by the Turks...not ONE word. You agree with me that Kurds are being oppressed till even this day? (Beware if you say no without GOOD argumentation, i have done my home work and i have my saheeh hadith and Qur'an to back up what i say). I do not follow nationalism but want pure honest Islam. If i am wrong i will admit that i have not looked at it from that perspective and admit you are right.

4. In that video it was claimed that Gulen had a video where he ordered his followers to climb up the ladder to occupy seats that hold power. For the sake of argument i say oke he has said this (as i myself haven't seen the video). My question to you is, if this is what it is how come the coup was done in such a amateurish way? I mean those guys since 1999 have infiltrated the secular system and are educated people. So they have been at it since then right? So don't you think this should have gone more according to plan? (Do please answer all these questions)

5. Is your claim ONLY based on that video? You said search online for other media outlets. The majority is in the hands of Zionists and the Turkish media are pro-Erdogan..so what media news outlet?

6. Now think with me from another perspective. Erdogan most probably has seen that video. By doing a FALSE COUP attempt he for once and for all could clean up the Gulen supporters from their positions. Is this a plausible theory and also very realistic theory? Also would this be a very smart move of Erdogan if this might be true?

[aaj]

Oke, bro, i have read that topic you sent me. Let me first begin with some SERIOUS dua's as my hatred for the dishonesty has no limit.

May Allah(swt) break the back of the dishonest person being you or me and may Allah(swt) throw him the the lowest of all the hells and show him no mercy to the dishonest one being you or me. As the dishonest person is the munafiq among the Muslims and the kafir under the non-Muslims. Because the dishonest person when he knows the truth he will not admit it, which makes him the REAL unbeliever as the message of Islam has reached him/her in full but rejects it because of arrogance and pride.

That's as far as I read and stopped wasting my time. Before you pass takfir on others, know that kuffar means one who conceals the truth and we are talking about the deen here so you are in error to equate that with anything else (especially politics) and pass takfir on others. And to wish deepest of hell for someone you think maybe wrong shows all that we need to know about you. May Allah protect us from extremists like you.

[aaj]

We have here a member whose close relatives have experiences about actions of Erdogan regime. Why not listen to him (I am not sure of others but I do trust much more to the local personal information than news agencies).

But you can find also reports of torture and other violations of human rights from humanitarian organizations like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. I just don´t think you´ll believe any of them as it seems that you have already decided that Erdogan can´t never do such crimes against humanity and any kind of proves are only "gulenist propaganda".

We have another member who is from Turkey and is more mature and not mentally unstable. Who said this:

Mustafa, all the ranking soldiers involved in the coup attempt being the members of the jamaat is not a good proof?

I'm not saying Erdogan is an angel nor is he personally going out there and torturing the people or maybe aware of how they are being interrogated. Then again, we see such interrogations in all nations, Muslim or otherwise, so I don't see why we are crying and making a big deal about this one in particular.

As I stated before, lot of things pointed to the gulenist being behind the coup. Coup, treason and over throw of a legitimate, democratically elected government is not something to dismiss so lightly. So obviously all those who are members of this organization will be targeted, innocent or not. Yes, his family is members so he feels concern for them and goes on to call Erdogan a tyrant, forgetting that his members were about to over throw a legit government. Maybe he should stop being so immature and think about whether he wants to be part of such an organization rather then blame the government for going after such an organization. He says he is scared to leave the gulen even though they have kicked him out already (https://www.islamicboard.com/advice-...en#post2944537), yet he is flooding this forum with his rants about Turkey.

As for me, I go with the article below, as do many other Muslims.

http://www.islam21c.com/politics/the...ration-to-all/

[Simple_Person]

That's as far as I read and stopped wasting my time. Before you pass takfir on others, know that kuffar means one who conceals the truth and we are talking about the deen here so you are in error to equate that with anything else (especially politics) and pass takfir on others. And to wish deepest of hell for someone you think maybe wrong shows all that we need to know about you. May Allah protect us from extremists like you.

The dishonesty sub'han'Allah and calling me an extremist. There is NO politics..THERE IS ONLY ISLAM and TRUTH!! A REAL Muslim follows Islam..NOT politics. If you ask me which Kurdish leader do i follow..i say NONE. If you ask me..which Kurdish leader do i admire..i say NONE and for Allah(swt) i cannot hide anything. If you ask me do you want a independent Kurdistan or a REAL Islamic Caliphate..i say without a doubt a REAL Islamic Caliphate..and again Allah(swt) knows if i speak the truth or not because for Him i cannot hide anything.

While i have become super annoyed by especially Turks who call themselves Muslims and when you ask them..why don't they speak out against oppression..they suddenly keep their mouth shut. I did that first part on purpose. So that you know that being dishonest and not admitting something while it is based on truth.

Till this day i have met only 3 Turks who admitted with all honesty in the span of ..well all my life. The third one was just recently and that was Mustafa16 here on this forum.

On other Islamic forums, people exactly like you are active. When you ask them honestly something and bring out Allah(swt) punishment and the seriousness of the discussion they suddenly keep their mouth shut. Dude, you do not have to answer my questions..for me what is important is that YOU know them yourself and already have answered them because Allah(swt) also knows what answer you have given them. The moment you know them..you have no excuses anymore on the Day of Judgement. A honest person would without arrogance and pride answer them in truth. Every person can be brainwashed..but if you are honest you can learn maybe i am wrong so better educate myself on this.

People like you i cannot get those 70 excuses when something might have happened. Because people like you will stab me in the back the moment i see you as a brother in Islam. Nationalism is the motivation for you dipped in the mask of Islam. When critical questions are asked, people like you KNOW the answer..but Allah knows maybe out of pride of arrogance not admitting it thinking you will lose your "Turkish pride".

la hawla quwwata illa billah ..the dishonesty..and having the guts to call themselves Muslims. How low have we human beings become seriously.

[Mustafa16]

We have another member who is from Turkey and is more mature and not mentally unstable. Who said this:



I'm not saying Erdogan is an angel nor is he personally going out there and torturing the people or maybe aware of how they are being interrogated. Then again, we see such interrogations in all nations, Muslim or otherwise, so I don't see why we are crying and making a big deal about this one in particular.

As I stated before, lot of things pointed to the gulenist being behind the coup. Coup, treason and over throw of a legitimate, democratically elected government is not something to dismiss so lightly. So obviously all those who are members of this organization will be targeted, innocent or not. Yes, his family is members so he feels concern for them and goes on to call Erdogan a tyrant, forgetting that his members were about to over throw a legit government. Maybe he should stop being so immature and think about whether he wants to be part of such an organization rather then blame the government for going after such an organization. He says he is scared to leave the gulen even though they have kicked him out already (https://www.islamicboard.com/advice-...en#post2944537), yet he is flooding this forum with his rants about Turkey.

As for me, I go with the article below, as do many other Muslims.

http://www.islam21c.com/politics/the...ration-to-all/

i am not mentally unstable, i have autism and ADHD....second, gulen movement did not try to overthrow the "democratically elected government of turkey," (elections rigged, no coup by gulenists), and i have provided sources for you to learn from, but you dismiss it in the name of Turkish nationalist nonsense....you dismiss any source i put out, because "the west is killing muslims".....so anyone who kills muslims is lying, right? well, what do you think muslims are doing to each other? they're eating each other alive......and dont act like aljazeera is such a reliable source.....or that the turkish media is such a reliable source.....and i find it highly unlikely that an intelligence community would make up lies against erdogan, especially when turkish intelligence is banned from speaking....

[Mustafa16]

We have another member who is from Turkey and is more mature and not mentally unstable. Who said this:



I'm not saying Erdogan is an angel nor is he personally going out there and torturing the people or maybe aware of how they are being interrogated. Then again, we see such interrogations in all nations, Muslim or otherwise, so I don't see why we are crying and making a big deal about this one in particular.

As I stated before, lot of things pointed to the gulenist being behind the coup. Coup, treason and over throw of a legitimate, democratically elected government is not something to dismiss so lightly. So obviously all those who are members of this organization will be targeted, innocent or not. Yes, his family is members so he feels concern for them and goes on to call Erdogan a tyrant, forgetting that his members were about to over throw a legit government. Maybe he should stop being so immature and think about whether he wants to be part of such an organization rather then blame the government for going after such an organization. He says he is scared to leave the gulen even though they have kicked him out already (https://www.islamicboard.com/advice-...en#post2944537), yet he is flooding this forum with his rants about Turkey.

As for me, I go with the article below, as do many other Muslims.

http://www.islam21c.com/politics/the...ration-to-all/

second, those soldiers being part of the coup being from jamaat is a lie, they were forced to say that under torture, which you chose to ignore out of "Turkish pride"

[Mustafa16]

We have another member who is from Turkey and is more mature and not mentally unstable. Who said this:



I'm not saying Erdogan is an angel nor is he personally going out there and torturing the people or maybe aware of how they are being interrogated. Then again, we see such interrogations in all nations, Muslim or otherwise, so I don't see why we are crying and making a big deal about this one in particular.

As I stated before, lot of things pointed to the gulenist being behind the coup. Coup, treason and over throw of a legitimate, democratically elected government is not something to dismiss so lightly. So obviously all those who are members of this organization will be targeted, innocent or not. Yes, his family is members so he feels concern for them and goes on to call Erdogan a tyrant, forgetting that his members were about to over throw a legit government. Maybe he should stop being so immature and think about whether he wants to be part of such an organization rather then blame the government for going after such an organization. He says he is scared to leave the gulen even though they have kicked him out already (https://www.islamicboard.com/advice-...en#post2944537), yet he is flooding this forum with his rants about Turkey.

As for me, I go with the article below, as do many other Muslims.

http://www.islam21c.com/politics/the...ration-to-all/

third, people like you and your politicians are the ones that make me feel ashamed to be a Muslim.

['Abd-al Latif]

Horrendous and systematic persecution of bahais in Iran (and everywhere)
Horrendous and systematic persecution of Gulenists in Turkey (and not even because they are considered heretics, but that certainly helps)
Horrendous and systematic persecution of Ahmadis in Pakistan and Palestine.
Horrendous abuse of Christians
Horrendous abuse of Jews
genocide against yazidis
sunni-shia conflict
what the heck is wrong with the muslim world? we complain about the abuse of Muslims in Burma, Kashmir, Palestine, Syria (which by the way, is also a place where yezidis and Christians are being butchered) and east Turkestan, the CAR in Africa, etc.
to be a muslim is to stand up for human rights anywhere and everywhere......
why do we only complain about ourselves? we hardly complain for the rights of non muslims, unless we live in the lands of the kuffar and fear lynching or hate crimes, but in the dar al islam, we don't fear, we let loose.....human beings are worthy of being treated with dignity....how would you like it if that was your sister, your daughter, your mother, your son, your brother, your friend, your father, etc.?
we complain about how human rights groups make "misleading reports" about Islamic countries....how is it misleading when you are not allowed to criticize your ruler because he is king or president or prime minister, where heads of state are thieves who hoard billions in wealth on enormous palaces, where corruption is rampant, where journalists are jailed, where insulting a leader IS A CRIME! where torture is rampant, where you are guilty until proven innocent....has anyone ever read the life of our Prophet (PBUH) and his companions? a kharijite came and insulted Umar (RA) in the masjid! they told Umar (RA) to react, but he said, he has a right to say what he wants...! astaghfirullah I am ashamed to be associated with the likes of Palestine, turkey, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, etc.

Whatever problem you see in the Muslim world today is because of ignorance. People cannot feel sympathy, empathy and kindness if they are not taught to appreciate one another. An ignorant Muslim is no exception.

Contrast the ignorant layman to the 'alim. Does the Muslim scholar believe the rights of anyone should be transgressed? Does the Qur'an and Sunnah reflect the actions you've described? The answer is no. Don't assume all Muslims have enough knowledge of the religion that will lead them to righteous actions as the truly righteous have always been few in number.

You should spend your energy making dua and advising those whom you can within your community to make a difference. The ummah of today is in need of people that will take action rather than feeling helpless at our current state.

['Abd-al Latif]

I forgot to mention that there are also good examples of Muslims living peacefully with others, be it atheists, Jews, Christians or others. The city of Marrakech in Morocco is split into three areas. One area is for the Jews, one for Christians and one for Muslims. You see the three groups of people freely mixing amongst one another and they all have their own places of worship. They worship freely without there being any conflict.

The Ahmedi around the world stir a great deal of problems because they are unanimously considered non-Muslim. There is a context behind the conflict for each group but ultimately the reasons and motivations behind the conflict today boils down to ignorance.

[Simple_Person]

-

After i posted my last comment i was pondering what is wrong with you people to not speak out against injustice. But in your previous comment you brought out politics. I came to the conclusion that you guys are seriously CONVINCED that politics and Islam are two COMPLETELY separate things. So in case of politics if injustice has done to certain groups being Muslims or non-Muslims and you support that political party, then you do not have to stand up against the injustice that has been done by that political party.

Sub'han'Allah this even makes more sense why i till now have found very little Turks speaking out against the injustice Turks are doing to the Kurds and other minorities. Whole nationalism has seriously messed up the fitrah, while usually fitrah automatically kicks in when injustice has done but in the case of the Turks sheytan having turned things around. In the past i even brought up the subject of Hagia Sophia and gave clear perspective that within Islam this is forbidden by bringing out the event with Umar ibn Khattab going to Jerusalem but praying outside the Church as he was afraid the Church being taken over by Muslims in the future and turning in to a mosque.

I have brought up Turkey being part of NATO..(hypocrisy)..most of them just kept quite..some said yes we need to get out of NATO..and that's it.

I have brought up Turkey doing business with the Zionist wanting to transfer gas to Europe, while this gas belongs to the Arabs. ...no reply to that...or reply as ..we don't like them but its is politics....

I have brought up that Turkey is using Syrian refugees as bargaining chips to get best deal with EU..no reply..or i would guess they would exactly say the same.."it is politics".

SUB'HAN'ALLAH..i feel rather sorry for you people. As the Day of Judgement you will also be held responsible for everything you do, said and not said. Even thinking that politics and Islam are separate things. While the logical, rational and reasonable Muslim would ask himself these questions of don't i as a Muslim still have to speak out against injustice..whatever and whoever does injustice.

Again..i am in shock, as i have never come to this conclusion before. I SERIOUSLY feel sorry for you guys. As i myself had nationalism in the past so i know how it feels. To get over this nationalism and acknowledge you being wrong and this nationalism being wrong a person has to humiliate himself so to say. Are you up for that to put your national pride aside and see your own culture as filth compared to Islamic culture? All i can say is, this national pride is to the CORE of your heart. It is not easy to conquer this. It is like completely throwing everything you believed upside down.

I am laughing out of unbelief, because this is really something i never imagined it would be. To overcome this i pondered a lot and i was honest in injustice even done by other Kurds. I think Mustafa16 is also going through the same struggle.

Also now i understand even better why i said if i would say brother to you, people like you would stab me in the back. As i speak out against the nationalism and injustice..which is one could say speak out against your core belief-system.

I wish you good luck with it if you are planning to conquer it, you gonna need that luck very badly.

[Simple_Person]

Whatever problem you see in the Muslim world today is because of ignorance. People cannot feel sympathy, empathy and kindness if they are not taught to appreciate one another. An ignorant Muslim is no exception.

Contrast the ignorant layman to the 'alim. Does the Muslim scholar believe the rights of anyone should be transgressed? Does the Qur'an and Sunnah reflect the actions you've described? The answer is no. Don't assume all Muslims have enough knowledge of the religion that will lead them to righteous actions as the truly righteous have always been few in number.

You should spend your energy making dua and advising those whom you can within your community to make a difference. The ummah of today is in need of people that will take action rather than feeling helpless at our current state.

It is rather hard to educate people. Especially if nationalism has embraced the heart. People REFUSE to ponder. If they ponder they KNOW it is wrong what is happening..but out of pride and thinking if i humiliate myself in the face of people by dismissing this bad nationalist-culture behavior people will brand me bad..not thinking of that Allah(swt) rather would elevate them.

Read my signature..Allah will not change the condition of a people, if the......

['Abd-al Latif]

My advice is to travel around the Muslim world as much as you can. If you see the reality of our people you'll have a much better idea of the context as opposed to reading someone's point of view or watching something on YouTube.

[Simple_Person]

I forgot to mention that there are also good examples of Muslims living peacefully with others, be it atheists, Jews, Christians or others. The city of Marrakech in Morocco is split into three areas. One area is for the Jews, one for Christians and one for Muslims. You see the three groups of people freely mixing amongst one another and they all have their own places of worship. They worship freely without there being any conflict.

The Ahmedi around the world stir a great deal of problems because they are unanimously considered non-Muslim. There is a context behind the conflict for each group but ultimately the reasons and motivations behind the conflict today boils down to ignorance.

As a Kurd myself, i found it very bizarre when i came to the west hearing Muslims and people of other faiths didn't get a long. Back home we had all kind of people from all kind of religions. Nobody bothering each other. So i have myself not known anything different than Muslims, Jews, Christians and other religious groups living peacefully side by side.

[ardianto]

Whatever problem you see in the Muslim world today is because of ignorance. People cannot feel sympathy, empathy and kindness if they are not taught to appreciate one another. An ignorant Muslim is no exception.

Contrast the ignorant layman to the 'alim. Does the Muslim scholar believe the rights of anyone should be transgressed? Does the Qur'an and Sunnah reflect the actions you've described? The answer is no. Don't assume all Muslims have enough knowledge of the religion that will lead them to righteous actions as the truly righteous have always been few in number.

You should spend your energy making dua and advising those whom you can within your community to make a difference. The ummah of today is in need of people that will take action rather than feeling helpless at our current state.

Alhamdulillah, finally someone brings the thread back to the original topic.

[sister herb]

We have another member who is from Turkey and is more mature and not mentally unstable. Who said this:

And do you think that all human right workers from Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International too are unmature and unstable?

I'm not saying Erdogan is an angel nor is he personally going out there and torturing the people or maybe aware of how they are being interrogated. Then again, we see such interrogations in all nations, Muslim or otherwise, so I don't see why we are crying and making a big deal about this one in particular.

So we better be quiet, close our eyes and let it happens when people are suffering? What if one of the victims would to be your relative? Still wondering why to keep the noise about this one? None of them is my relative. But they all are my sisters and brothers (in Islam or in humanity).

As human beings we should be very worry and make it a very big deal when anywhere, anyone will face kind of treatment like torturing or other kind of political violence. No not only in Turkey but everywhere.

Why bother? Because of humanity.

[aaj]

i am not mentally unstable, i have autism and ADHD....second, gulen movement did not try to overthrow the "democratically elected government of turkey," (elections rigged, no coup by gulenists), and i have provided sources for you to learn from, but you dismiss it in the name of Turkish nationalist nonsense....you dismiss any source i put out, because "the west is killing muslims".....so anyone who kills muslims is lying, right? well, what do you think muslims are doing to each other? they're eating each other alive......and dont act like aljazeera is such a reliable source.....or that the turkish media is such a reliable source.....and i find it highly unlikely that an intelligence community would make up lies against erdogan, especially when turkish intelligence is banned from speaking....

You are clearly anti-turkish government because of what they are doing to gulenists.Which is understandable but have you ever considered that culprit is playing the victim here? if you find it highly unlikely that an intelligence community would make up lies then you have a lot to learn. Fact of the matter is, regardless of what gulenist think or outsiders think, the narrative within the nation is what the nation believes and follow.

second, those soldiers being part of the coup being from jamaat is a lie, they were forced to say that under torture, which you chose to ignore out of "Turkish pride"

So it's your word, a gulenist, against the word of the turkist government and its people ?

third, people like you and your politicians are the ones that make me feel ashamed to be a Muslim.

I care not for any politicians. Bro, you should focus more on deen then politics. Whether you are ashamed to be a Muslim or not should be based on whether you agree or not with tenets of Islam not politics and what other Muslims do.

Take a break from all these politics and as 'Abd-al Latif' suggested, focus your energy on your deen and community.

[Mustafa16]

You are clearly anti-turkish government because of what they are doing to gulenists.Which is understandable but have you ever considered that culprit is playing the victim here? if you find it highly unlikely that an intelligence community would make up lies then you have a lot to learn. Fact of the matter is, regardless of what gulenist think or outsiders think, the narrative within the nation is what the nation believes and follow.



So it's your word, a gulenist, against the word of the turkist government and its people ?



I care not for any politicians. Bro, you should focus more on deen then politics. Whether you are ashamed to be a Muslim or not should be based on whether you agree or not with tenets of Islam not politics and what other Muslims do.

Take a break from all these politics and as 'Abd-al Latif' suggested, focus your energy on your deen and community.

Turkish intelligence has said nothing. American intelligence has. Turkish media is not free. American media is. Turkish media is against Gulenists. American media is for them. Turkey is a dictatorship led by a man who lives in a thousand room palace built on public land. America is a free, open constitutional republic led by a man in a 20 bedroom house restricted by courts, and congress. You have failed to address my evidence. End of story.

[Simple_Person]

Turkish intelligence has said nothing. American intelligence has. Turkish media is not free. American media is. Turkish media is against Gulenists. American media is for them. Turkey is a dictatorship led by a man who lives in a thousand room palace built on public land. America is a free, open constitutional republic led by a man in a 20 bedroom house restricted by courts, and congress. You have failed to address my evidence. End of story.

Don't be so sure about that bro. As Turkey is a dictatorship we all can agree..that is the same with US. There is no freedom..it is all a illusion. US is a modern dictatorship, while Turkey is struggling to show it self as the modern dictatorship.

[Serinity]

:salam:

Guys, bad is bad, Justice is Justice, Injustice is Injustice, etc.

We have to stand up for Justice, whether it be against ourselves or otherwise.

I admit, I have no knowledge of the Political situation. But do not be patriotic about any human being living on this Earth right now.

We will be questioned by Allah :swt: ,, Erdogan will go to his grave, and you to yours, so why do you care about their political status? Care more about Allah :swt: . If Erdogan is an oppressor, then stop him. If your brother is, stop him, your father? stop him, etc.

I am not morally obliged to defend any immoral person, be it Erdogan, or the Muslims today, or my own father or mother.

Allahu alam.

[Mustafa16]

Don't be so sure about that bro. As Turkey is a dictatorship we all can agree..that is the same with US. There is no freedom..it is all a illusion. US is a modern dictatorship, while Turkey is struggling to show it self as the modern dictatorship.

the definition of a dictatorship is a country where there is total one-man rule, where one person holds all absolute power, but the US is not a dictatorship....it has "checks and balances" so one branch of government or one person can never gain absolute power, be it congress, the president, or the courts.....donald trump is not an all powerful dictator, even he is bound by the courts and congress, and people are allowed to insult him all they want....

[Mustafa16]

guide to checks and balances: https://bensguide.gpo.gov/j-check-balance

[Mustafa16]

Don't be so sure about that bro. As Turkey is a dictatorship we all can agree..that is the same with US. There is no freedom..it is all a illusion. US is a modern dictatorship, while Turkey is struggling to show it self as the modern dictatorship.

I think the term you are looking for is oligarchy ("rule by the few" not dictatorship which is "rule by one man", but that is also not accurate, American people are free to get involved in the political process, even if they are not in the select few, or are rich. They are simply too lazy. many of the poorest Americans even become the richest people.

[Simple_Person]

the definition of a dictatorship is a country where there is total one-man rule, where one person holds all absolute power, but the US is not a dictatorship....it has "checks and balances" so one branch of government or one person can never gain absolute power, be it congress, the president, or the courts.....donald trump is not an all powerful dictator, even he is bound by the courts and congress, and people are allowed to insult him all they want....

That is the illusion that i am talking about. The biggest achievement of the modern day is making people believe that they are free under democracy and rule of law. When a human being knows what he/she is up to, one can adjust to the situation. For example in a clear dictatorship..you adjust your behavior. In a "modern dictatorship" aka "democratic country" like here in the west. When you tell the truth, you are being branded as a terrorist. The media will tell your story to the people and everybody will see you as a terrorist.

A very good example is Anwar al-Awlaki. He was one of the Muslims who said EXACTLY that which hurts them.

Battle of the hearts lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mye66so3els

Very good documentary is (Dirty Wars (2013) )

[Serinity]

Who is Anwar Al-Awlaki?

[Mustafa16]

Who is Anwar Al-Awlaki?

an al qaeda recruiter...I can't believe @Simple_Person is supporting him.

[Serinity]

an al qaeda recruiter...I can't believe @Simple_Person is supporting him.

Really?

[anatolian]

Why? Because most Muslims follow politics rather than Islam's itself. Those policies or their politicians tell them to do things which are not in Islam and people are doing everything they tell regarding it as the commendments of the religion. We are living in age of information technologies but we are rather ignorant. It is not because of the lack of information but because of the lack of common sense.

[aaj]

Really?

he is parroting what the west has taught him. I would suggest doing your own research.

Anwar was an american citizen and an imam who was very vocal against corrupt muslim rulers, scholars and western governments. he was labeled as a 'terrorist' and taken out, like many Muslims these days do or end up in torture cells without due process by the intelligence that he is praising.

[Snel]

gulen is not a tyrant, silly, he is an imam and religious scholar....to be a tyrant, you have to be the leader of a nation or terrorist organization

My bad, he's not a tyrant, he seeks to be a tyrant.

What kind of muslim scholar promotes Jalal al-Din Rumi?

Rumi, a poet who liked to write heresy, like this:

"I became the One
whose name everybody takes an oath to." - I am the One by Jalal al-Din Rumi

[Mustafa16]

he is parroting what the west has taught him. I would suggest doing your own research.

Anwar was an american citizen and an imam who was very vocal against corrupt muslim rulers, scholars and western governments. he was labeled as a 'terrorist' and taken out, like many Muslims these days do or end up in torture cells without due process by the intelligence that he is praising.

and where do you get your knowledge on these matters? where do you even live? if the answer is Turkey, you are clearly brainwashed, and listen to sabah and yeni safak, and if the answer if Germany, you probably live in some Turkish ghetto, also brainwashed, if you live in regular Germany or another regular, informed, and free part of a free speech practicing society, you should realize that you are not an intelligence operative, and so you do not know the American deep state better than the American deep state, and you have still failed to address the lack of Turkish intelligence reporting, Turkish corruption and culture and practice of totalitarianism, and the fact that anyone who questions Erdogan (even if he is an HDP politician, or a governor, a federal judge, or a intelligence officer), they are thrown in jail. so your point is moot. and even if your point is not moot by what I have just said, aside from that, my mistake of trusting Wikipedia for info on an imam, is no grounds for you to float your lies about my family's jamaat. You Turks always do this. (e.g. what we do to the Kurds? do you have any idea what the Jews do to the Palestinians??? my answer: "Ok, so my comparing your treatment of Kurds to the treatment of Palestinians, you are admitting what you are doing is wrong, and that what they are doing is wrong. just because theyre right doesn't make you right and wrong at the same time). as always, deflect, as someone from a third world country with an improper educational system, which the gulenists were trying to fix.

[Mustafa16]

My bad, he's not a tyrant, he seeks to be a tyrant. What kind of muslim scholar promotes Jalal al-Din Rumi?

uh-oh. looks like we got a salafi on our hands. so just because he is a heretic or false muslim he is also a terrorist trying to overthrow the Turkish government and become absolute ruler?

[Mustafa16]

@aaj perhaps you did address it, as you said, "Erdogan is not an angel" but you failed to address epistemology and ethos, meaning te way this impacts our ability to trust info coming from him.

[Snel]

uh-oh. looks like we got a salafi on our hands. so just because he is a heretic or false muslim he is also a terrorist trying to overthrow the Turkish government and become absolute ruler?

I'm a muslim, I don't put labels on myself.

He's a heretic, and he's probably going to terrorize people who are in political opposition to himself. I don't know about him becoming a complete dictator but the risk is there. You can't possibly be serious about supporting a guy like this. Erdogan is a tyrant, yes, but this man is no better.

[Mustafa16]

he is parroting what the west has taught him. I would suggest doing your own research.

Anwar was an american citizen and an imam who was very vocal against corrupt muslim rulers, scholars and western governments. he was labeled as a 'terrorist' and taken out, like many Muslims these days do or end up in torture cells without due process by the intelligence that he is praising.

is it not possible he was doing both? being vocal about corrupt muslim rulers, scholars, and western governments, as well as recruiting for al Qaeda????

[Mustafa16]

I'm a muslim, I don't put labels on myself.

He's a heretic, and he's probably going to terrorize people who are in political opposition to himself. I don't know about him becoming a complete dictator but the risk is there. You can't possibly be serious about supporting a guy like this. Erdogan is a tyrant, yes, but this man is no better.

there is do deep state connection to gulen. there were three crackdowns in recent years against gulenists from Erdogan. 1) 2013 corruption scandal, where Erdogan and his minister were accepting bribes and exchanging gold for Iranian oil. (Iran....? killer of sunnis anyone?)......2) 2014-2015.....courts had a arrant to wiretap politicians.....so, legal.....3) military coup attempt, which I have already disproven was from gulen...watch this....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIsErcnaDD0

[Mustafa16]

I'm a muslim, I don't put labels on myself.

He's a heretic, and he's probably going to terrorize people who are in political opposition to himself. I don't know about him becoming a complete dictator but the risk is there. You can't possibly be serious about supporting a guy like this. Erdogan is a tyrant, yes, but this man is no better.

oh, and this...


oh, and this....
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/tr/c...e-country.html

[Snel]

there is do deep state connection to gulen. there were three crackdowns in recent years against gulenists from Erdogan. 1) 2013 corruption scandal, where Erdogan and his minister were accepting bribes and exchanging gold for Iranian oil. (Iran....? killer of sunnis anyone?)......2) 2014-2015.....courts had a arrant to wiretap politicians.....so, legal.....3) military coup attempt, which I have already disproven was from gulen...watch this....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIsErcnaDD0

I support neither Erdogan nor Gulen, I've made my position clear on that many times. Turkey needs an alternative to those two.

[Mustafa16]

My bad, he's not a tyrant, he seeks to be a tyrant.

What kind of muslim scholar promotes Jalal al-Din Rumi?

Rumi, a poet who liked to write heresy, like this:

"I became the One
whose name everybody takes an oath to." - I am the One by Jalal al-Din Rumi

wait a minute.....did Rumi actually say that? you know.....I really am starting to question some of this extreme Sufism....perhaps I should ditch gulenism in favor of mainstream islam, and go to mainstream masjids and marry a mainstream muslim woman.....if gulen praises a man who said that, then....wow.....but, sources please? EDIT: However, I will still stand for fair treatment of gulenists, however, at this point, I don't have as much attachment....but, I am a very volatile person, so that could soon change, as many can testify....

[Mustafa16]

I support neither Erdogan nor Gulen, I've made my position clear on that many times. Turkey needs an alternative to those two.

why exactly do you not support Erdogan?

[Snel]

wait a minute.....did Rumi actually say that? you know.....I really am starting to question some of this extreme Sufism....perhaps I should ditch gulenism in favor of mainstream islam, and go to mainstream masjids and marry a mainstream muslim woman.....if gulen praises a man who said that, then....wow.....but, sources please? EDIT: However, I will still stand for fair treatment of gulenists, however, at this point, I don't have as much attachment....but, I am a very volatile person, so that could soon change, as many can testify....

Sure, http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/archi...php/t-458.html

[Mustafa16]

Sure, http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/archi...php/t-458.html

I notived you used a link to an ahl-al-hadeeth site.....are you a member of that forum? are you ahl-al-hadeeth?

[Snel]

I notived you used a link to an ahl-al-hadeeth site.....are you a member of that forum? are you ahl-al-hadeeth?

Who they are is unimportant because they gave the reference to where the poem came from, so it's not based on their words only.

The reference is this book: "The Forbidden Rumi: The Suppressed Poems of Rumi on Love, Heresy, and Intoxication" by Nevit Ergin and Will Johnson.

And no I'm not a member of that forum.

[Mustafa16]

@aaj just because I start to think that perhaps gulenists are fake muslims, does not make me for a second believe they were responsible for the coup......Erdogan is still firaun, and this argument is not over, unless you forfeit, which means ive won......

[Simple_Person]

an al qaeda recruiter...I can't believe @Simple_Person is supporting him.

No not supporting him. I support him before he became like that. As before that his mind was still intact. So please bro, don't twist things. Within Islam there is absolutely NO excuse to kill innocent people. The lecture that i gave you is the one BEFORE he became like that. Very beneficial lecture i must say. But i will never tell anybody to listen to him after he joined al-qaeda.

@aaj just because I start to think that perhaps gulenists are fake muslims, does not make me for a second believe they were responsible for the coup......Erdogan is still firaun, and this argument is not over, unless you forfeit, which means ive won......

Brother there is NO winning in a discussion. If that was your intention to "win" from those pro-Erdogan supporters, well you have lost already when you started it. In a discussion is ONLY what is the truth nothing else matters.

[Simple_Person]

is it not possible he was doing both? being vocal about corrupt muslim rulers, scholars, and western governments, as well as recruiting for al Qaeda????

Brother in this case, go study what has happened to him first. You cannot say directly he was a al Qaeda supporter. He became an al Qaeda supporter AFTER jail and torture etc. happened to him. Before this, he said EXACTLY what the truth was. So it is not so black and white as you point it out to be.

I'm glad to see that there are mainstream muslims like @sister herb and you, Snel, and @Serinity who see things differently and with a desire for justice, just goes to show I don't have to be Gulenist, in fact your quote by Rumi is starting to make me think they could be wrong theologically....

This is your issue to be honest. I am not sure based on what you support Gulen. Just because he "wants" to follow the path of Said Nursi? (while also giving the drop of oil to it (nationalism) ). Well you can follow that path without being part of any group. Just be a Muslim who follows the Qur'an and sunnah and stands up against injustice. You think because many of us not support Gulen or Erdogan are "backward" or what? Internet and all the knowledge that is available is open for everybody not just one of those two groups you know. Also there is no "mainstream" Muslim. We Muslims always want to tag things. There is no sunni, shia, alewi, sufi you name it. There is only Muslim. You follow either Qur'an and Sunnah or you don't. But for yor own sake you better have a very solid argument why you don't follow it. As simple as that.

['Abd-al Latif]

Dear dudes and duddettes,

Please stick to the topic and avoid slandering, backbiting and bickering when communicating with one another. This is a forum not a jungle. Anyone who refuses to do so shall face the mighty wrath of my keyboard. Be warned - it's new!

Behave yourselves. I'm keeping a close eye.

[Snel]

WHAT?? you serious? has he done that? Killed two innocent people? (not that i am that shocked when you think this came from a tyrant like him)

Where from did you hear it?

from somewhere outside Turkey, that's for sure....the media in turkey is so censored.....

My bad, I just double-checked, it seems that he just arrested them. I'm sorry.

[Simple_Person]

My bad, I just double-checked, it seems that he just arrested them. I'm sorry.

Jazakallahu khairan for correcting yourself and letting us know about it. I don't like Erdogan nor Gulen as both of them follow nationalism with the mask of Islam. However truth must always be said.