I want to believe but I just can't

[Kazu]

Greetings people, Muslims and nons, no offense to the Muslims. I want to get this off my chest for a long time. I'm a closet ex-muslim, 22. Since childhood I had so many doubts about Islam, particularly about the existence of God himself. How can God let really evil things happen? if everything evil meant to happen because God wants to test us and given that the tests given aren't supposed to exceed our limit as humans, why do God let terrible things happen to children? There are cases some children were kidnapped from their houses, was gang-raped, and burnt to death. How was that a test? I may just be really ignorant for not making sense of this, kindly, please enlighten me.

But then, after all of that, I would repent to Allah and became religious. I found myself always going back and forth. In the past, I used to cry in my sujood, I used to cry when reading the Koran, I used to be very careful with my thinking bcos I feared Allah so much. I loved Ramadhan very much, that's the only time I truly felt connected to Allah by doing extra prayers, learning stuff & taking care of my inner self. Normally people would usually dread bcos of the fasting, but really I loved Ramadhan, it truly made me a better person, but just like every other religion will make people become a better person. My family weren't very religious, so I searched God most by myself. But until I opened myself to the outer world, I started becoming friends with some non muslims, reading forums and articles etc. I changed my views on life, I became very liberal in my thinking, and this wasn't a good thing. I debated with my muslim friends and I just couldn't convince them anything bcos of how conservative they are. I heard religious teachers said on TV that Islam favors blind faith over logical thinking so Muslims shouldn't first and foremost use logic when dealing with religion. I couldn't believe what I just heard. If this is what humans should be, then I don't think the world could have advanced to what it is now.

There are some controversial verses of Quran and Hadiths that I just couldn't make sense of, especially the part about the prophet's wife Aisha. I've had non muslims asking me about this, no matter how hard I tried to make sense, I know deep in my heart I was just convincing myself, not them. Aisha might be a smart, mature girl for her age, but sorry this is not excuse for pedophilia. Would you marry off your girl to a 50+ old man , just to be fair, assuming the man is not just plain old man, but handsome , looking younger than his actual age, very kind in heart and very religious, even with the girl's consent? Apologists will say this was acceptable at that time, but I thought Islam is supposed to be timeless as I was taught in school. If he is the perfect role model then I think all muslims should aspire to do the same thing as well. Child marriages is still an actual thing happening now and it strips off lives of young girls. Some of these girls suffer complications at childbirth like anal fistula because they are too young to give birth. Some cases girls die of internal bleeding because their sexual organs are not compatible. I understand that the girl needed to be checked whether they're ready to withstand penetration, I say this can be misjudged and girls are not born just to be penetrated.

I became agnostic several months ago, I stopped praying 5 times. No, no satan is whispering on me. How can I blame the satan for my own actions? Tbh it left a void in me but this is just because I lost something I used to usually keep in my heart. I was like a meat lover who just became vegan. But after some while I felt normal like every other person but sad that I have to pretend to my family all of my life. I'm not really happy not believing in God, I want to believe spiritually, I want to be in heaven with all my loved ones, but with these flaws in religion I just couldn't. If there are anybody here who used to be atheists/agnostic, can you share how did you even make sense of this? I don't want to continuously pretend to everyone. Soo sorry for the length and Tq

[*charisma*]

How can God let really evil things happen? if everything evil meant to happen because God wants to test us and given that the tests given aren't supposed to exceed our limit as humans, why do God let terrible things happen to children? There are cases some children were kidnapped from their houses, was gang-raped, and burnt to death. How was that a test? I may just be really ignorant for not making sense of this, kindly, please enlighten me.

I also ask myself, why do people who have had terrible things happen to them still believe in God and become much stronger in their faith? If you've lived as a Muslim, then you should know that this worldly life is ephemeral. Yes we do get tested, but it's not always with pain and it's not always with ourselves. All of us are tested in very different ways. It's through certain tests that we gain experiences and strength that we otherwise would not have had. But I understand what you mean, the fact of the matter is that our focus is the afterlife and our good deeds. So if someone dies or is in pain, be it a child or an adult, the purpose for it is individual and that knowledge is with Allah solely.

There are some controversial verses of Quran and Hadiths that I just couldn't make sense of, especially the part about the prophet's wife Aisha. I've had non muslims asking me about this, no matter how hard I tried to make sense, I know deep in my heart I was just convincing myself, not them. Aisha might be a smart, mature girl for her age, but sorry this is not excuse for pedophilia. Would you marry off your girl to a 50+ old man , just to be fair, assuming the man is not just plain old man, but handsome , looking younger than his actual age, very kind in heart and very religious, even with the girl's consent? Apologists will say this was acceptable at that time, but I thought Islam is supposed to be timeless as I was taught in school. If he is the perfect role model then I think all muslims should aspire to do the same thing as well. Child marriages is still an actual thing happening now and it strips off lives of young girls. Some of these girls suffer complications at childbirth like anal fistula because they are too young to give birth. Some cases girls die of internal bleeding because their sexual organs are not compatible. I understand that the girl needed to be checked whether they're ready to withstand penetration, I say this can be misjudged and girls are not born just to be penetrated.

You're right, during that time things were different in regards to the mindset of the people. Does it mean that these days it is unacceptable islamically if the circumstances are very similar as you had pointed out?? No.

But if we are going to go by definition here, pedophilia is characterized by any 16 year old or older who is attracted to prepubescent kids. That means that if a 16 year old boy is attracted to a 13-year old girl, he is a pedophile. To be honest, this definition doesn't make sense because girls these days look much older than they really are and considering the age gap between them, it's only 3 years.

You could argue that you're talking about a 50 year old man wanting to marry a 9 year old girl, but it's not really that different because honestly guys are attracted to females point blank. If the girl is attractive, a guy will be attracted to her regardless of her age. There are 70 year olds who are married to 18 year olds, that's a 52 year difference. There are 13 year olds married to 14 year olds; both being "underage" and pubescent. If you want to follow a western ideology, then when it comes to marriage, age shouldn't matter, right??

Marriage should not be something that strips away from a person's life, it's something that is a blessing. Anything that makes it feel otherwise is poisonous. It's not something that should happen in secret or as a business transaction (like some cultures make it where they "sell off" their daughters). It's a celebration of two people who believe they are compatible for the rest of their lives, who will balance one another in faith, and who are following the laws ordained by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. That being said, the majority of scholars believe that is preferable for girls to marry once they reach the age of puberty (sexual maturity), and not before. But for the rare cases that it does happen, then it depends on the interests of the girl first and foremost. Girls these days are sexually curious and having intercourse at 9 years old. I personally think marriage is much more suitable and safer for them than in a culture that condemns "child marriages" but does very little in preventing a sexually geared atmosphere where they can easily be raped, molested, and pregnant. So there's really nothing that says that it's unsafe for girls to get married or be in a relationship at that age unless the marriage is unhealthy and destructive in nature which is unislamic. And when it comes to pregnancies, there are complications in every pregnancy whether the woman is an adult or a child. Some women die too..so really that's not a strong argument. The child marriages you imagine are the ones that come out of poverty, backward cultures, and ignorance. The pedophiles you think about are the ones where men can be attracted to boys just as well as girls, who are a danger to children, and who victimize them. None of this is allowed in Islam.

Now with your comment regarding why shouldn't all men emulate the prophet pbuh and marry children? Because the prophet did not marry for the sake of his desires and he married a range of different women and he treated them all very well and they loved him to death. Marriage in general is sunnah. It's not obligatory. Marrying children isn't obligatory either. It's just something that is allowed if something of that case happened where a man finds himself interested in a girl and she is of a certain age. In the US there are many states which have no age minimum for marriage. Isn't that crazy? But the difference with the westernized world and Islam is that Islam has universal rules. It's not based on the whims and desires of people where it changes ever so often. The connotation of pedophilia often comes with a lot of perversions that are not allowed in Islam, and there is no exception to it whether the man who wants to marry is 13 or 70.

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Welcome to the forum, sister @Kazu. :) Thank you for entrusting us with your concern and queries; we appreciate your trust in us, and we hope we can do justice to that trust.

I used to be a staunch materialist atheist. I turned Muslim after I'd completed college, and I've remained a Muslim for some years now. I should mention I did not want to adopt Islam nor was I looking for a religion at the time this happened, but Islam took me by surprise, and I fell in love with Islam after studying it deeply and reflecting on the patterns in my own life and that I saw in life of humanity. Since I studied Islam from both the proper sources and used to peruse Islamophobic sites as well (the latter not being something I'd recommend for sincere seekers), I think I can address at least some of your concerns. Having said that, God-willing I or others can answer more of your questions and give you the satisfaction you seek in your heart, mind, and, soul if God wills.

Logical thinking is important to ascertaining facts in life. Islam doesn't negate logical thinking or halt people from exercising their mental faculties or intelligence to reach logical conclusions. What Islam instead advises is that you as an individual and a thinking human being have to acquire knowledge and learn and reflect and travel and observe and ponder and study until you reach the point of certainty in faith. After you've reached the point of certainty in faith, you have to subordinate your logic to primordial instinct and inclination to faith. For example, if you have seen Russel Crowe's movie The Next Three Days, you'll have an understanding of why that should be. Russel Crowe's character John in the movie has lived with his wife in peace and happiness, and they also have a young child. However, one day, their life is turned upside-down his wife is arrested for murder of her boss and she goes to jail and the courts also find her guilty; every single shred of evidence points to his wife's guilt, but he believes in her innocence. And the audience learns that she is innocent also, despite what logic would have the police understand, which is to judge her guilty. So, understand that logic is a tool, but it can never be a substitute for or replacement for faith. This is also evidenced in the case of Iblees who logically concluded that he was better than Adam (peace be upon him) because Iblees was created from fire whereas Adam (peace be upon him) was created from clay. Also, understand that logic can be used in what will upend morality and become another tool of Satanic wish-fulfillment. For example, on this board, we recently had a young teenage Muslim boy saying that in Islam touching is not allowed of opposite sex. So, what if he wore a condom and had sex with a girl because then he wouldn't be touching her with his penis as the condom would be covering his male appendage. So, the boy is logically correct, but he is of course subverting the intent and the language and the purpose of Islam's prohibition on touching the opposite sex. Learn, therefore, to think of logic as a tool but not the supreme tool, especially in matters of faith.

I'll tackle some other questions later as it's quite late at night, and I accidentally stumbled upon this thread after being unable to sleep. So, I'll answer some other questions later. At this time though, I'd like to clarify the issue that you brought in respect to Aisha (may God be pleased with her). I hope you know that she was engaged before Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) ever came into her life. Moreover, it wasn't Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) who thought of the marriage first, but he (peace and blessings be upon him) was given a divine dream three times indicating that he should or will marry her, and Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) peaceably submitted to God's Will. To be blunt, the marriage cannot be considered pedophilia because WebMd describes pedophilia as "a sustained sexual orientation toward children, generally aged 13 or younger." However, we know that all the other women whom Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) were much older, widows and divorcees. In fact, Khadija (may God be pleased with her) was a 40-year old woman to his (peace and blessings be upon him) young 25-year old self. Also, pedophiles lose attraction for a person once they turn older, which Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) never did for Aisha even as she aged for the rest of the years that he (peace and blessings be upon him). Pedophiles do not seek marriage but sexual gratification as the immediate end of their fantasy is simply deflowering the girl and does not involve taking responsibility for her in life and treating her as an equal partner. If you read the Seerah of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), you'll immediately realize that Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was never treated as anything but an equal partner and that she was a firebrand who never raised any objections either prior to the marriage or long after the marriage had ceased to exist with the death of her noble husband (peace and blessings be upon him). Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was happy in her marriage and herself praised his noble character (peace and blessings be upon him); if there was any lewdness or indecency in the outlook of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), she would have been the first to know or report because she was never one to hold her tongue irrespective of the position of the person facing her. So, finally, you should realize that Aisha (peace and blessings be upon him) was an exception in Prophet's (peace and blessings be upon him) life, the only person who was young and virgin chosen by God. There is much wisdom behind this marriage, and one of the wisdom that we may surmise from this marriage is that the young age of Aisha (may God be pleased with her) still had her youthful ability to memorize and relay all aspects of Sunnah (prophetic footsteps) accurately; that is because scientifically we know today that our memory is best when we're younger and deteriorates as we age. Also, if you go back in global history, you'll find that Western marriages were also conducted very young in many cases among the aristocratic set. Parents married their toddlers to other older people because marriage was seen as a way to cement alliance between powerful families; that is why, for example, you'll find that in well-researched historical romance novels, you'll find this theme being replayed. One such example is the historical romance novel The Gift authored by Julie Garwood in which an example is given of child marriage. Also, child marriages still occur in villages in India and tribes in Africa; in fact, a hit fictional television series called Balika Vadhu in India portrays onscreen the journey of a child bride. Also, again, I emphasize that the marriage with Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was an exception for many enumerated reasons, and there is no Islamic reason to believe that the high emphasis on emulation of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) need include us in an exception in doing the same when clearly exceptions do not inform the norm nor are they meant to inform the norm.

Also, I acknowledge your point about the modern-day problems that child brides experience such as anal fistula or being too young to give birth or internal bleeding. However, if you believe we have as human beings not evolved over a millennia, you'd be incorrect.

[H]adeeth was narrated by Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who said: “Allaah created Adam and he was sixty cubits tall. Then He said, ‘Go and greet those angels and listen to how they greet you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your progeny.’ He said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alaykum (Peace be upon you).’ They said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alaykum wa rahmat-Allaah (Peace be upon you and the mercy of Allaah).’ So they added the words ‘wa rahmat Allaah.’ And everyone who enters Paradise will be in the form of Adam. People kept on growing smaller until now.”

According to a version narrated by Muslim: “Everyone who enters Paradise will be in the form of Adam who was sixty cubits tall. People kept growing smaller until now.”

With regard to the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), “People kept growing smaller until now,” al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baari (6/367): “This means that in every generation people grew shorter than the previous generation, and continued to grow shorter until the time of this ummah, then they stayed like that.”

This necessarily means that we've evolved as human beings in our development and there is no reason to believe that we've stopped evolving in other specific ways; so, it is quite possible that Aisha (may God be pleased with her) had attained maturity in her time in her development despite her age in that time and that modern girls of a similar age today do not attain to maturity in that same way, which is why they might experience the problems you've mentioned.

Suffering and evil are a part of life as you yourself said in the earliest part of your post. Do you know why both exist? Suffering exists when we attach our hearts to ephemeral things. Children, as beautiful and as innocent as they are, are just part of existence, not the defining points of our existence. However, whenever we ascribe or choose to define ourselves by the things or beings we possess, you should realize that instead those things have possessed us. People run after fame, but become depressed or suicidal after their fame runs out, and they're no longer treated to that adulation. People run after wealth, but they become depressed or suicidal after the wealth runs out, and they're no longer privy to the luxuries they enjoyed. People run after spouses and children, but they become depressed or suicidal after their spouse dies or their children die, no longer giving them meaning in life. However, these are just gifts, for the Owner to do with as the Owner pleases; they never belonged to the people who felt that they had a right to them in the first place. We human beings should not attach our hearts to that which is temporary and instead look to God, the Eternal, to attach our hearts. Do you know what the logical opposite of light is? It is the absence of the light, which we call darkness. Do you know what the logical opposite of goodness is? It is the absence of goodness, which we call evil. God did not create evil; the very inability for human beings to govern their egos and free themselves from negative influence whether mental, psychical, or spiritual results in evil. So, you should not seek to blame God for that which God is not responsible. We all have Free Will from birth to grave; we choose what we want and the responsibility of not exercising the freedom properly is not the fault of God but human beings. For example, there are traffic laws which asks us to stop at a red signal. Do you blame the red signal for a car driving through the red light and causing an accident? No, right. That's because the red traffic light is an instrument of neutrality. In that same way, God has promised to judge our actions in the Hereafter, but here in this world we're given free will and God listens to our prayers and answers them but God has given us free will in life as an instrument of neutrality to exercise in whichever way we will.

You mentioned that there are cases wherein some children were kidnapped from their houses, gang-raped and burnt to death and you asked how was that a test. Recognize God has created two worlds, the Seen and the Unseen. In the Seen world, you see from the materialist perspective the horrible way in which an innocent child died and for no reason. However, in the Unseen world, you see from the spiritual perspective the martyrdom that that the innocent child achieved and the higher status in Paradise were it not for the horrible way in which this innocent child had died and now his/her death becomes an instrument for the parents to revive/maintain their faith and for the wider world to become aware of guarding their children from predators. In the Unseen world, a bad thing that happens in the Seen world is still an event from which a spiritual and/or material good ensues.

Since you've said that you'd became an agnostic several months ago, I think you need to rethink your agnosticism but in ways that are going to be conducive to you attaining belief. First and foremost, recognize that we're all (Muslims and non-Muslims) on a spiritual journey, regardless of whether're cognizant of this fact or not. What is important therefore is that we all realize that neither belief nor nonbelief are permanent states of being; rather, they're both simply states of existence that are subject to processes of thinking and processes of life. Therefore, I think it is important that you learn to see your nonbelief as a blank slate from which you're going to be building up your faith God-willing. Remember the first words of the testimony of faith known as shahada is "I bear witness that there is no god but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God." So, you already have the blank slate of the shahada as per the highlighted portion in maroon red as a gateway to the acknowledgement of the rest. If you do not give into this state of anxiety and stay calm and focused, frankly, I think you here might have a golden opportunity here that many people do not have, which is to have an iman (faith) that is going to become the stuff of mountains that nobody will be able to move because hopefully you'll be able to build from a solid foundation this time around. As a starting point, I think you should watch the YouTube videos Divine Prologue 1 and Divine Prologue 2 and tell me if you still feel the same way. With anything good in life in which you want to invest, you'll have to give your time, energy, and attention. So, if truth and faith is something you desire, I hope you'll not mind devoting the time, energy, and attention building yourself up in this matter will require. If you do so, I'm inclined to think God-willing you'll be better off in the end for it and perhaps even some day recognize the wisdom and value of God having you taken down that path so that hopefully you'll be able to then be the light that guides other Muslims when they should fall off the bandwagon as you did here in your story. However, that's going too far yet into the future, and we'll both have to agree to take you taking it easy on yourself by going one step at one time. Agreed?

Last Point: Faith is that which the heart believes but the mind denies. It would be useless for anyone to try to build knowledge of faith on the level of the mind as faith exists on a spiritual plane and that plane resides in the heart. So, if your heart corrects you, your faith will become revived. So, if I were you, I'd focus on correcting the heart that became an instrument of corruption (which fed off of the doubts you'd been having and led to agnosticism materializing as an organic path and natural outcome). Remember Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "There lies within the body a piece of flesh. If it is sound, the whole body is sound; and if it is corrupted, the whole body is corrupted. Verily this piece is the heart." The aphorism in the hadith (prophetic tradition) is stating a profound and primordial Spiritual Law governing us.

Take care.

Sincere Regards & Best Wishes,

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[greenhill]

Welcome to IB.

You are going through what most intelligent people would go through. Where does our world exist? In our minds. If you dare question, then you can raise doubts.

I would say a fairly big chunk of your 'issues' (Aisha aside, as very nicely narrated by sis Search above) might be cleared if you listen to Jeffrey Lang on YouTube "the Purpose of Life". It's about an hour and a half but well worth it. The start is a bit slow but necessary. I only wished that the end was not rushed. :hmm:

Wishing you a great stay.


:peace:

[Simple_Person]

To explain part by part, one must first logically, rationally and reasonably with evidence if possible backup the argument of a Creator. I think (Without pride) i can answer most of your questions better than most other members. As i myself was born a Muslim became an atheist and again by choice have become Muslim after doing my own research.

I follow mostly logic, rationality and reason with scientific FACTS if they exist. I also ponder a lot before just saying something out in the open. So let's begin in'sha'Allah.

Greetings people, Muslims and nons, no offense to the Muslims. I want to get this off my chest for a long time. I'm a closet ex-muslim, 22. Since childhood I had so many doubts about Islam, particularly about the existence of God himself (1). How can God let really evil things happen? if everything evil meant to happen because God wants to test us and given that the tests given aren't supposed to exceed our limit as humans, why do God let terrible things happen to children? There are cases some children were kidnapped from their houses, was gang-raped, and burnt to death. (2)How was that a test? I may just be really ignorant for not making sense of this, kindly, please enlighten me.

(1) (Existence of a Creator) Science in this day and age comes with the explanation of the big bang. With the big bang scientist say this is the moment that time and space both came in to existence. So before the big bang time and space did not exist. Atheism begins with the big bang, but logic and rationality do NOT start with the big bang, they start BEFORE the big bang as what caused the big bang to come to exist? Atheist often talk a lot about their belief (yes it is also a belief-system, as they have not seen all those things with their own eyes) but when you ask them what came before the big bang, the argument of something starting out of nothing contradicts mathematics. 0 + 0 = 0 . Something cannot come in to existence out of nothing. So we cannot mathematically say 0+0=1. This is logically and rationality NOT acceptable. I have heard about multivers-theory, but STILL the argument exist of what came BEFORE the multivers? The problem however with atheism, they ONLY accept 1+1=2 argument. So this is one of the BIGGEST even BIGGER problem than their missing-link theory within evolution-theory that is the back breaker of atheism it self. So if the current logic and rationality and reason does not fix the problem with what caused the big bang. ONLY philosophical answer to that is something must have already existed. As if you for example say what became before a multivers, then you will be trapped in a answer never capable of being answered. One can say, but saying something already exist, doesn't answer the question what came before the big bang. The answer to that, is no it does answer it. Think with me.

Scientist say time and space came in to existence with the the big bang. So whatever was BEFORE the big bang does NOT live/function/role with the criteria of time and space. This answer sub'han'Allah is confirmed in the Qur'an.

"Nor is there to Him any equivalent." Qur'an 112:4

Within this universe, we compare things, like saying a Mercedes is better than a BMW based on certain criteria. So also with time and space we think, this Creator should somehow abide by these rulings within this universe. However again, time and space came in to existence AFTER the big bang. So whatever we try to compare outside this universe goes beyond our imagination or logic, rationality and reason. I mean we cannot even imagine how it is to not have time or space. So in the Qur'an if there is NO equivalent to Him, then by default we cannot compare Him to anything of existence within this universe that abides by rulings of time and space. So everything outside this universe is beyond our limitations as human beings. The big bang was the beginning of this universe. We KNOW everything that has a beginning as a end. Like you were born and you will die. A tree comes out of a seed and dies again after so many years. The answer even to this is given in the Qur'an.

"He neither begets nor is born," Qur'an 112:3

So indeed, the philosophical answer earlier (ONLY philosophical answer to that is something must have already existed) we could give that something already must have existed is also answered by this. If something is not born/come to existence, it also does not die/go away.

Now also knowing this and understanding this, you could say well there is a Creator. So having concluded this, all other belief-systems (atheism, agnosticism) automatically become false. I once had the discussion with a female atheist she said there was a theory that said something can come out of existence out of nothing. Within atheistic believe, this goes against logic, rationality and reason. Within Islam this theory is even confirmed with this..

"......And the day He says, "Be," and it is....." Qur'an 6:73

Something can come out of nothing by His word.

So now, having also made the cause of the big bang explained, you THEN go by rulings of logic, rationality and reason.

(2) The problem often is that we always look from OUR perspective a things. For example i say shirt X is blue, you say shirt X is green. This is from our perspective. If i have a blue glasses on, indeed it is FOR SURE a blue shirt that i am seeing and i am not lying. However you are also right if you have a green tinted glasses so to say. However if a third person looks at it and does not wear any glasses nor is he color blind, he sees a white shirt.

So the case with those children, it becomes not a test anymore to them. That is their fate. However it becomes a test for those criminals and argument against them on the Day of Judgement. On the Day of Judgement having all your sins on somebody else's book is a BIG relieve. I mean being killed by a person is a HUGE relieve as that individual will carry my sins (if i indeed was killed unjustly). Besides that there is the argument that that individual who has done that awful crime could become a savior of people. Often it is sheytan that whispers to us to do this and do that. However after doing such awful things our fitrah(human nature) kicks in and feel remorse. Whatever you want to do you can do..as this world is a free "playground", but know there is a Day of Judgement for your actions.

A good story in the Qur'an to explain for example a bit of this is the story of al-khidr killing that young boy. While Musa(as) became all angry..etc. Later on we knew the story about the boy and why he was killed or that was his destiny. After knowing the whole story we say..indeed logically, rationally and reasonably we accept the fate of that child being killed by al-Khidr as Allah(swt) knows everything as a hole (past, present, future, also the choices you make etc. etc). While we don't.

If you don't agree with these answers, please reply and PLEASE stick to logic, rationality and reason with evidence if possible. Also about the big bang part, if you do not agree, i expect you to give me your answer than. I do not accept "your answer is rubbish and do not give me a argument against it". This is the mentality of weak and dishonest people and i do not have the feeling you are that type of a person.

But then, after all of that, I would repent to Allah and became religious. I found myself always going back and forth. In the past, I used to cry in my sujood, I used to cry when reading the Koran, I used to be very careful with my thinking bcos I feared Allah so much. (3) I loved Ramadhan very much, that's the only time I truly felt connected to Allah by doing extra prayers, learning stuff & taking care of my inner self. Normally people would usually dread bcos of the fasting, but really I loved Ramadhan, it truly made me a better person, but just like every other religion will make people become a better person. My family weren't very religious, so I searched God most by myself. But until I opened myself to the outer world, I started becoming friends with some non muslims, reading forums and articles etc. I changed my views on life, (4) I became very liberal in my thinking, and this wasn't a good thing. I debated with my muslim friends and I just couldn't convince them anything bcos of how conservative they are. I heard religious teachers said on TV that Islam favors blind faith over logical thinking so Muslims shouldn't first and foremost use logic when dealing with religion. I couldn't believe what I just heard. If this is what humans should be, then I don't think the world could have advanced to what it is now.

(3) There is the reason why you felt much better in Ramadan. Within Islam we know that is the moment when sheytan is chained. So that is also the moment we do not have to deal with waswassa(whispering) of sheytan. The only dealing is our own nafs. Which suddenly becomes as if it is NOTHING. As if it is a piece of cake to deal with our nafs. When you feel the pressure 100%(lets say this is sheytan's time) and suddenly feel 50% (no sheytan) it is as if this 50% is 0%. The people who feel ramadan as a burden are people who listen to sheytan often when it is not Ramadan. So they are the "slaves" so to say of sheytan. When somebody fights against sheytan the whole year and suddenly there is no sheytan for 1 month (Ramadan) you become like a free person. A person who always listens to sheytan the whole year around, will see Ramadan as a burden because this goes against what sheytan has told them to do the whole year. Suddenly do not fill up your belly completely. While Islam says do not fill up your belly. etc. etc.

(4) I have also read other arguments and articles and views. However reading a argument and articles and view, doesn't make it dangerous. What makes it dangerous are two things. They give you a satisfying answer, but not telling you everything. This is blindly following their argument/view. I was also like that. I heard the comparison they made with apes and human beings and i believed them. Later on when i began questioning things and really pondering about stuff and observing stuff, i saw MANY..MANY contradictions in their argument.

I can say to you, sister eat yogurt it is good for you. This is how i followed them in the beginning and believing in their nonsense.

However with that sentence "sister eat yogurt it is good for you" you can further analyze it.

- Who told you it is good for me?
- Is that individual trustworthy?
- Who does pay this person for his/her research if that has been done?
- Based on what evidence has this person come up with this conclusion?
- What are the negative "side effects" of it?
- Define what is "good"
- How many people have been tested in that research?
- How was their lifestyle during that research?
- What kind of food or lifestyle did they(test subjects) have in common?
etc. etc. etc. etc.

You see, suddenly things become .."a bit" harder to answer. This has been my attitude with Islam from the start when i embraced it by choice. EVERY time my questions have been answered. The answers come from all kind of directions. From youtube video, to a comment made on a youtube video, to a topic or comment on forums, or somebody i talked to outside or seen behavior of people outside or simple even looking at the sky or animals and their behavior. My eyes are open for observation and my mind is open for wanting to understand it and process it. I do not criticize as "i know better" i criticize as ..i want to know and understand... i am a student...not a teacher. Atheism the best i can compare with is a liar when you have come to know he has lied to you..and he cannot escape from that situation..the expression on his face :). You lose all the respect for that individual.

There are some controversial verses of Quran and Hadiths that I just couldn't make sense of, especially the part about the prophet's wife Aisha (5). I've had non muslims asking me about this, no matter how hard I tried to make sense, I know deep in my heart I was just convincing myself, not them. Aisha might be a smart, mature girl for her age, but sorry this is not excuse for pedophilia. Would you marry off your girl to a 50+ old man , just to be fair, assuming the man is not just plain old man, but handsome , looking younger than his actual age, very kind in heart and very religious, even with the girl's consent? Apologists will say this was acceptable at that time, but I thought Islam is supposed to be timeless as I was taught in school. If he is the perfect role model then I think all muslims should aspire to do the same thing as well. Child marriages is still an actual thing happening now and it strips off lives of young girls. (6) Some of these girls suffer complications at childbirth like anal fistula because they are too young to give birth. Some cases girls die of internal bleeding because their sexual organs are not compatible. I understand that the girl needed to be checked whether they're ready to withstand penetration, I say this can be misjudged and girls are not born just to be penetrated.

(5) About the case of Rasullah(saws) and Aisha(ra), the argument AGAIN it is very easy. First we need to lay the foundation.

- Islam is AGAINST forceful marriages
- In Islam a marriage is ONLY permissible if both the parties agree to the marriage
- In Islam a woman can marry a man like a man can marry a woman AFTER they have become adults.
- What is adulthood in Islam? Puberty.

Now we know these things we further can analyze the situation. We KNOW that Aisha(ra) has agreed to marry Rasullah(saws) like Rasullah(saws) has agreed to marry Aisha(ra). So no force able marriage here. Some scholars say age X while other scholars say age Y and other scholars say age Z. I myself was NOT present at that time. I am also NOT a scholar. What do i choose? I choose the path of she already had become a woman and she agreed to marry Rasullah(saws). What age was she? I do not know and i do not care, because in Islam it all is according to becoming a man or a woman. From then on you are responsible for your own deeds.

The question is, would i marry my own daughter at the age of 14 for example when she has become a woman? My answer to that no. Why? Psychically becoming a woman is 1 thing, but often they look like full women but have the mind of a child. How can my own daughter take care of a child if she herself thinks as a child? You get me?

In this day and age i have talked to girls 20-21 years old, it is as if i am talking to a 8 year old girl. Such a childish mentality. No responsibility..NOTHING. So even if my own daughter would want to marry at the age of 14 and i know she is mentally not capable to even take care of her self, i would not allow it. She would only do harm to her husband, her children and her self. Girls 50 years back at the age of 10 were mentally mature. The knew how to survive even if nobody was at home. Go ask the average girl of 10 years old to cook you a decent meal..how many are able to do that? This is a blessing in poor countries as those girls and boys indeed are capable while here in the west ..MEN/WOMEN have mentality of children.

(6) We look at age, but forget the world we are living in. The question is why in Islam a man/woman is a adult when reaching that age? Often the problem is not the age, but the food and environment we are in. Living here in the west, our food is POISON to us. There is almost no food or some pork additive has been added. While even science tells us to better not eat pork. Companies only care about money. Politicians only care about money. Since WW1 the amount of illnesses that have come in to existence have risen tremendously. WHY? WHY? WHY? Nobody is asking anything. Do you really think if you eat this poison that your child would not have such problems? ..as the ones you are mentioning? Action reaction sister. Wifi, cellular radiation and other stuff. Every time some article appears..companies are trying to hide the truth. Look at those research articles about for example sugar not being bad for you. You look who did the research and who funded them..(Coca Cola, Pepsi...)..You REALLY think that Coca Cola would fund or let the results of a research come in to the open that indeed says sugar in the present day is bad for you?

THINK sister..THINK DEEPLY..question things. Don't just see something and become all emotional and think Islam is at fault. It has a reason why things are how they are. Stop filling up your brain with rubbish and for example look at documentaries such as Food, Inc. (2008)

I became agnostic several months ago, I stopped praying 5 times. No, no satan is whispering on me. How can I blame the satan for my own actions? Tbh it left a void in me but this is just because I lost something I used to usually keep in my heart. I was like a meat lover who just became vegan. But after some while I felt normal like every other person but sad that I have to pretend to my family all of my life. I'm not really happy not believing in God, I want to believe spiritually, I want to be in heaven with all my loved ones, but with these flaws in religion I just couldn't. If there are anybody here who used to be atheists/agnostic, can you share how did you even make sense of this? I don't want to continuously pretend to everyone. Soo sorry for the length and Tq

Sister to be honest i do not care if you are a Muslim or become atheist. I will not sleep better of it. However the ONLY thing i care about if somebody is honestly searching for the truth and honestly is asking questions to want to know and understand things. So go and ask yourself, do i just want to pursue atheism or agnosticism..if so the road is open for you to pursue that. If you say know i really want to walk on the path of whatever the truth is..then my advice START pondering more often. The questions you have, Allah(swt) will answer them. But keep your eyes open and ponder often.

If you disagree with any of what i have told you in this comment, please reply to it so i can also learn. If not..you have two choices..agree to it become Muslim yet again..or disagree with it with a argument or disagree with it without argument. Choice is yours :).

Peace

[Scimitar]

As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. - Qur'an 2/6

Scimi

[Kazu]

Firstly, thank you for your answers Mr.Simple_person. I may not get some of my points across because of the language barrier. But I will try my best. Indeed I'm trying to be open minded as possible (also eyes and heart) , not to be biased towards any specific ideology/belief system. You seem to assume me being atheist by discussing matters related to mostly atheism, but I don't consider myself an atheist.

(1) (Existence of a Creator) Science in this day and age comes with the explanation of the big bang. With the big bang scientist say this is the moment that time and space both came in to existence. So before the big bang time and space did not exist. Atheism begins with the big bang, but logic and rationality do NOT start with the big bang, they start BEFORE the big bang as what caused the big bang to come to exist? Atheist often talk a lot about their belief (yes it is also a belief-system, as they have not seen all those things with their own eyes) but when you ask them what came before the big bang, the argument of something starting out of nothing contradicts mathematics. 0 + 0 = 0 . Something cannot come in to existence out of nothing. So we cannot mathematically say 0+0=1. This is logically and rationality NOT acceptable. I have heard about multivers-theory, but STILL the argument exist of what came BEFORE the multivers? The problem however with atheism, they ONLY accept 1+1=2 argument. So this is one of the BIGGEST even BIGGER problem than their missing-link theory within evolution-theory that is the back breaker of atheism it self. So if the current logic and rationality and reason does not fix the problem with what caused the big bang. ONLY philosophical answer to that is something must have already existed. As if you for example say what became before a multivers, then you will be trapped in a answer never capable of being answered. One can say, but saying something already exist, doesn't answer the question what came before the big bang. The answer to that, is no it does answer it. Think with me.

I've seen your argument a lot from theists, I myself used the same argument against atheists, but there is a flaw. The universe has a beginning, therefore it must have an end, that I agree because I've seen some arguments about it (some atheists believe universe itself is eternal) , but what causes the universe in the first place? God, they say. Why does it has to be 'God'? The omniscient, all-powerful, law-making, judging, punishing , God? It seems like people are programmed to follow a certain type of thinking, making a certain conclusion and fitting everything into a 'box' that fits all their descriptions about what God/deity/superhuman-being should be when they can't explain something they can never comprehend. Of course without a doubt, something can't come out of nothing, but can theists explain how did God Allah came into existence? No, they say God has always existed. God is not part of the law of nature that he made. But can theists explain the nature of God Allah ( Zaat of Allah)? No, no human can ever comprehend the nature of God because our minds are limited when it comes to that. So just let the knowledge be with Allah alone.

This is exactly the same case with atheists/agnostics, we don't know for sure what was before universe. We can't explain it and that is okay not knowing something, just like when theists are asked about the nature of their God. What if mother nature is a god? What if there is a set of atemporal sequences that has always existed and gives rise to universe and life? What if there is a god that only governs the balance of nature but doesn't intervene in human actions, doesn't punish nor reward humans? What if there is a god but need not to be worshiped, but just to be admired? Why can't such a God exists before religion teaches us their version of God? I'm not saying I believe in my own version of God, but these are all possibilities.

So the case with those children, it becomes not a test anymore to them. That is their fate. However it becomes a test for those criminals and argument against them on the Day of Judgement. On the Day of Judgement having all your sins on somebody else's book is a BIG relieve. I mean being killed by a person is a HUGE relieve as that individual will carry my sins (if i indeed was killed unjustly). Besides that there is the argument that that individual who has done that awful crime could become a savior of people. Often it is sheytan that whispers to us to do this and do that. However after doing such awful things our fitrah(human nature) kicks in and feel remorse. Whatever you want to do you can do..as this world is a free "playground", but know there is a Day of Judgement for your actions.

I have to agree with you on this, it kinda makes sense. I imagine being raped by multiple men and killed afterwards is the worst possible thing that could happen to a child, immediately I can't accept why God even let this happen. If the 'test' argument can't justify this then why not use the 'fate' argument? Maybe I'm the one who doesn't understand this concept in Islam. I presumed both the killers and victim are being tested. The killers, no problem, but the victim? Allah says he doesn't test anyone beyond their limit, but if this is the case, then I assume the limit is not even death itself, if the person dies then it becomes their fate? Correct me if I'm wrong.

(3) There is the reason why you felt much better in Ramadan. Within Islam we know that is the moment when sheytan is chained. So that is also the moment we do not have to deal with waswassa(whispering) of sheytan. The only dealing is our own nafs. Which suddenly becomes as if it is NOTHING. As if it is a piece of cake to deal with our nafs. When you feel the pressure 100%(lets say this is sheytan's time) and suddenly feel 50% (no sheytan) it is as if this 50% is 0%. The people who feel ramadan as a burden are people who listen to sheytan often when it is not Ramadan. So they are the "slaves" so to say of sheytan. When somebody fights against sheytan the whole year and suddenly there is no sheytan for 1 month (Ramadan) you become like a free person. A person who always listens to sheytan the whole year around, will see Ramadan as a burden because this goes against what sheytan has told them to do the whole year. Suddenly do not fill up your belly completely. While Islam says do not fill up your belly. etc. etc.

I cannot relate as I don't believe about shaytans whispering stuff on me. What I believe changed me for the better was the fasting as Ramadhan's the only time I ever fast (including Shawal as well). It has been scientifically proven beneficial to health, people all around the world practices fasting be they're muslims or not. It curbs my urges to let out my anger, it balances my hormones/blood sugar level/ etc etc so I believe that's what made me more focused on my ibadah.

(4) I have also read other arguments and articles and views. However reading a argument and articles and view, doesn't make it dangerous. What makes it dangerous are two things. They give you a satisfying answer, but not telling you everything. This is blindly following their argument/view. I was also like that. I heard the comparison they made with apes and human beings and i believed them. Later on when i began questioning things and really pondering about stuff and observing stuff, i saw MANY..MANY contradictions in their argument.

I can say to you, sister eat yogurt it is good for you. This is how i followed them in the beginning and believing in their nonsense.

However with that sentence "sister eat yogurt it is good for you" you can further analyze it.

- Who told you it is good for me?
- Is that individual trustworthy?
- Who does pay this person for his/her research if that has been done?
- Based on what evidence has this person come up with this conclusion?
- What are the negative "side effects" of it?
- Define what is "good"
- How many people have been tested in that research?
- How was their lifestyle during that research?
- What kind of food or lifestyle did they(test subjects) have in common?
etc. etc. etc. etc.

You see, suddenly things become .."a bit" harder to answer. This has been my attitude with Islam from the start when i embraced it by choice. EVERY time my questions have been answered. The answers come from all kind of directions. From youtube video, to a comment made on a youtube video, to a topic or comment on forums, or somebody i talked to outside or seen behavior of people outside or simple even looking at the sky or animals and their behavior. My eyes are open for observation and my mind is open for wanting to understand it and process it. I do not criticize as "i know better" i criticize as ..i want to know and understand... i am a student...not a teacher. Atheism the best i can compare with is a liar when you have come to know he has lied to you..and he cannot escape from that situation..the expression on his face . You lose all the respect for that individual.

I totally understand where you're coming from.. you and I are not so much different. I can say for sure that I was and am being very very truthfully honest with myself when I began questioning Islam and researching things. When I was a muslim there was a state where I'm 100% confident islam as the truth, I told myself changing my religion is impossible as everything about Allah makes sense. I pondered a lot BUT.. I only knew the 'good' part of Islam, the front side of the coin, but the other side? I turned a blind eye. Even my friends did. I found out that Islam justifies terrorism, slavery, etc, you know, the controversial stuff. Not that I didn't know it at first, but it has always been the part of Islam that I was scared to learn more about, we didn't discuss that in school.

What you mentioned above is likely when you view atheism as a belief system..in fact, it is not. Not all atheists believe in the same thing. They make assumptions, sometimes they believe they're right, sometimes they know they're wrong. I look at their views as merely possibilities of what could happen. The vast different opinions/interpretations itself is proof to me that Islam, or any religion, likely not be true. There are christians/hindus/jew/etc who believe to great extent and so devoted like muslims do in their religion and incapable of understanding from different perspectives. Suppose muslims are to interpret a matter a specific way, the nonmuslims deviated too far from the line, but still reach a reasonable and legit conclusion, but are going to hell for that, and I asked myself, do I want to believe in that religion? Not everyone can understand a particular ideology, but some can, that's why we see people converting to Islam because they are capable to understand the islamic point of view, but other people are just incapable and sometimes it really is impossible to understand when you're not in that position, every human brain is not the same. When I sit in a room full of non muslims, I wondered, why are they going to hell just because they don't interpret things the way I do?

However, I must say that, Islam is not particularly bad. I've seen the best of humanity in Islam, in my community usually the muslims are the best behaved. I learnt life lessons mostly from this religion. I still love some parts of Islam, I have no issue with pork, alcohol, hijab, relationships, lottery and stuff. But the flaws that I assume it is , just doesn't make it up.

I will be addressing the issue about Aisha some time later. Thank you for your advice, hope to see your reply soon.

[Reminder]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Welcome to the forum, sister @Kazu. :) Thank you for entrusting us with your concern and queries; we appreciate your trust in us, and we hope we can do justice to that trust.

I used to be a staunch materialist atheist. I turned Muslim after I'd completed college, and I've remained a Muslim for some years now. I should mention I did not want to adopt Islam nor was I looking for a religion at the time this happened, but Islam took me by surprise, and I fell in love with Islam after studying it deeply and reflecting on the patterns in my own life and that I saw in life of humanity. Since I studied Islam from both the proper sources and used to peruse Islamophobic sites as well (the latter not being something I'd recommend for sincere seekers), I think I can address at least some of your concerns. Having said that, God-willing I or others can answer more of your questions and give you the satisfaction you seek in your heart, mind, and, soul if God wills.

Logical thinking is important to ascertaining facts in life. Islam doesn't negate logical thinking or halt people from exercising their mental faculties or intelligence to reach logical conclusions. What Islam instead advises is that you as an individual and a thinking human being have to acquire knowledge and learn and reflect and travel and observe and ponder and study until you reach the point of certainty in faith. After you've reached the point of certainty in faith, you have to subordinate your logic to primordial instinct and inclination to faith. For example, if you have seen Russel Crowe's movie The Next Three Days, you'll have an understanding of why that should be. Russel Crowe's character John in the movie has lived with his wife in peace and happiness, and they also have a young child. However, one day, their life is turned upside-down his wife is arrested for murder of her boss and she goes to jail and the courts also find her guilty; every single shred of evidence points to his wife's guilt, but he believes in her innocence. And the audience learns that she is innocent also, despite what logic would have the police understand, which is to judge her guilty. So, understand that logic is a tool, but it can never be a substitute for or replacement for faith. This is also evidenced in the case of Iblees who logically concluded that he was better than Adam (peace be upon him) because Iblees was created from fire whereas Adam (peace be upon him) was created from clay. Also, understand that logic can be used in what will upend morality and become another tool of Satanic wish-fulfillment. For example, on this board, we recently had a young teenage Muslim boy saying that in Islam touching is not allowed of opposite sex. So, what if he wore a condom and had sex with a girl because then he wouldn't be touching her with his penis as the condom would be covering his male appendage. So, the boy is logically correct, but he is of course subverting the intent and the language and the purpose of Islam's prohibition on touching the opposite sex. Learn, therefore, to think of logic as a tool but not the supreme tool, especially in matters of faith.

I'll tackle some other questions later as it's quite late at night, and I accidentally stumbled upon this thread after being unable to sleep. So, I'll answer some other questions later. At this time though, I'd like to clarify the issue that you brought in respect to Aisha (may God be pleased with her). I hope you know that she was engaged before Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) ever came into her life. Moreover, it wasn't Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) who thought of the marriage first, but he (peace and blessings be upon him) was given a divine dream three times indicating that he should or will marry her, and Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) peaceably submitted to God's Will. To be blunt, the marriage cannot be considered pedophilia because WebMd describes pedophilia as "a sustained sexual orientation toward children, generally aged 13 or younger." However, we know that all the other women whom Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) were much older, widows and divorcees. In fact, Khadija (may God be pleased with her) was a 40-year old woman to his (peace and blessings be upon him) young 25-year old self. Also, pedophiles lose attraction for a person once they turn older, which Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) never did for Aisha even as she aged for the rest of the years that he (peace and blessings be upon him). Pedophiles do not seek marriage but sexual gratification as the immediate end of their fantasy is simply deflowering the girl and does not involve taking responsibility for her in life and treating her as an equal partner. If you read the Seerah of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), you'll immediately realize that Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was never treated as anything but an equal partner and that she was a firebrand who never raised any objections either prior to the marriage or long after the marriage had ceased to exist with the death of her noble husband (peace and blessings be upon him). Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was happy in her marriage and herself praised his noble character (peace and blessings be upon him); if there was any lewdness or indecency in the outlook of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), she would have been the first to know or report because she was never one to hold her tongue irrespective of the position of the person facing her. So, finally, you should realize that Aisha (peace and blessings be upon him) was an exception in Prophet's (peace and blessings be upon him) life, the only person who was young and virgin chosen by God. There is much wisdom behind this marriage, and one of the wisdom that we may surmise from this marriage is that the young age of Aisha (may God be pleased with her) still had her youthful ability to memorize and relay all aspects of Sunnah (prophetic footsteps) accurately; that is because scientifically we know today that our memory is best when we're younger and deteriorates as we age. Also, if you go back in global history, you'll find that Western marriages were also conducted very young in many cases among the aristocratic set. Parents married their toddlers to other older people because marriage was seen as a way to cement alliance between powerful families; that is why, for example, you'll find that in well-researched historical romance novels, you'll find this theme being replayed. One such example is the historical romance novel The Gift authored by Julie Garwood in which an example is given of child marriage. Also, child marriages still occur in villages in India and tribes in Africa; in fact, a hit fictional television series called Balika Vadhu in India portrays onscreen the journey of a child bride. Also, again, I emphasize that the marriage with Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was an exception for many enumerated reasons, and there is no Islamic reason to believe that the high emphasis on emulation of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) need include us in an exception in doing the same when clearly exceptions do not inform the norm nor are they meant to inform the norm.

Also, I acknowledge your point about the modern-day problems that child brides experience such as anal fistula or being too young to give birth or internal bleeding. However, if you believe we have as human beings not evolved over a millennia, you'd be incorrect.
This necessarily means that we've evolved as human beings in our development and there is no reason to believe that we've stopped evolving in other specific ways; so, it is quite possible that Aisha (may God be pleased with her) had attained maturity in her time in her development despite her age in that time and that modern girls of a similar age today do not attain to maturity in that same way, which is why they might experience the problems you've mentioned.

Suffering and evil are a part of life as you yourself said in the earliest part of your post. Do you know why both exist? Suffering exists when we attach our hearts to ephemeral things. Children, as beautiful and as innocent as they are, are just part of existence, not the defining points of our existence. However, whenever we ascribe or choose to define ourselves by the things or beings we possess, you should realize that instead those things have possessed us. People run after fame, but become depressed or suicidal after their fame runs out, and they're no longer treated to that adulation. People run after wealth, but they become depressed or suicidal after the wealth runs out, and they're no longer privy to the luxuries they enjoyed. People run after spouses and children, but they become depressed or suicidal after their spouse dies or their children die, no longer giving them meaning in life. However, these are just gifts, for the Owner to do with as the Owner pleases; they never belonged to the people who felt that they had a right to them in the first place. We human beings should not attach our hearts to that which is temporary and instead look to God, the Eternal, to attach our hearts. Do you know what the logical opposite of light is? It is the absence of the light, which we call darkness. Do you know what the logical opposite of goodness is? It is the absence of goodness, which we call evil. God did not create evil; the very inability for human beings to govern their egos and free themselves from negative influence whether mental, psychical, or spiritual results in evil. So, you should not seek to blame God for that which God is not responsible. We all have Free Will from birth to grave; we choose what we want and the responsibility of not exercising the freedom properly is not the fault of God but human beings. For example, there are traffic laws which asks us to stop at a red signal. Do you blame the red signal for a car driving through the red light and causing an accident? No, right. That's because the red traffic light is an instrument of neutrality. In that same way, God has promised to judge our actions in the Hereafter, but here in this world we're given free will and God listens to our prayers and answers them but God has given us free will in life as an instrument of neutrality to exercise in whichever way we will.

You mentioned that there are cases wherein some children were kidnapped from their houses, gang-raped and burnt to death and you asked how was that a test. Recognize God has created two worlds, the Seen and the Unseen. In the Seen world, you see from the materialist perspective the horrible way in which an innocent child died and for no reason. However, in the Unseen world, you see from the spiritual perspective the martyrdom that that the innocent child achieved and the higher status in Paradise were it not for the horrible way in which this innocent child had died and now his/her death becomes an instrument for the parents to revive/maintain their faith and for the wider world to become aware of guarding their children from predators. In the Unseen world, a bad thing that happens in the Seen world is still an event from which a spiritual and/or material good ensues.

Since you've said that you'd became an agnostic several months ago, I think you need to rethink your agnosticism but in ways that are going to be conducive to you attaining belief. First and foremost, recognize that we're all (Muslims and non-Muslims) on a spiritual journey, regardless of whether're cognizant of this fact or not. What is important therefore is that we all realize that neither belief nor nonbelief are permanent states of being; rather, they're both simply states of existence that are subject to processes of thinking and processes of life. Therefore, I think it is important that you learn to see your nonbelief as a blank slate from which you're going to be building up your faith God-willing. Remember the first words of the testimony of faith known as shahada is "I bear witness that there is no god but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God." So, you already have the blank slate of the shahada as per the highlighted portion in maroon red as a gateway to the acknowledgement of the rest. If you do not give into this state of anxiety and stay calm and focused, frankly, I think you here might have a golden opportunity here that many people do not have, which is to have an iman (faith) that is going to become the stuff of mountains that nobody will be able to move because hopefully you'll be able to build from a solid foundation this time around. As a starting point, I think you should watch the YouTube videos Divine Prologue 1 and Divine Prologue 2 and tell me if you still feel the same way. With anything good in life in which you want to invest, you'll have to give your time, energy, and attention. So, if truth and faith is something you desire, I hope you'll not mind devoting the time, energy, and attention building yourself up in this matter will require. If you do so, I'm inclined to think God-willing you'll be better off in the end for it and perhaps even some day recognize the wisdom and value of God having you taken down that path so that hopefully you'll be able to then be the light that guides other Muslims when they should fall off the bandwagon as you did here in your story. However, that's going too far yet into the future, and we'll both have to agree to take you taking it easy on yourself by going one step at one time. Agreed?

Last Point: Faith is that which the heart believes but the mind denies. It would be useless for anyone to try to build knowledge of faith on the level of the mind as faith exists on a spiritual plane and that plane resides in the heart. So, if your heart corrects you, your faith will become revived. So, if I were you, I'd focus on correcting the heart that became an instrument of corruption (which fed off of the doubts you'd been having and led to agnosticism materializing as an organic path and natural outcome). Remember Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "There lies within the body a piece of flesh. If it is sound, the whole body is sound; and if it is corrupted, the whole body is corrupted. Verily this piece is the heart." The aphorism in the hadith (prophetic tradition) is stating a profound and primordial Spiritual Law governing us.

Take care.

Sincere Regards & Best Wishes,

I quickly scrolled down, stopped in the middle of this huge wall of text, and knew it must be you. lol

[Simple_Person]

Firstly, thank you for your answers Mr.Simple_person. I may not get some of my points across because of the language barrier. But I will try my best. Indeed I'm trying to be open minded as possible (also eyes and heart) , not to be biased towards any specific ideology/belief system. You seem to assume me being atheist by discussing matters related to mostly atheism, but I don't consider myself an atheist.

I've seen your argument a lot from theists, I myself used the same argument against atheists, but there is a flaw. The universe has a beginning, therefore it must have an end, that I agree because I've seen some arguments about it (some atheists believe universe itself is eternal) , but what causes the universe in the first place? God, they say. Why does it has to be 'God'? The omniscient, all-powerful, law-making, judging, punishing , God? It seems like people are programmed to follow a certain type of thinking, making a certain conclusion and fitting everything into a 'box' that fits all their descriptions about what God/deity/superhuman-being should be when they can't explain something they can never comprehend. Of course without a doubt, something can't come out of nothing, but can theists explain how did God Allah came into existence? No, they say God has always existed. God is not part of the law of nature that he made. But can theists explain the nature of God Allah ( Zaat of Allah)? No, no human can ever comprehend the nature of God because our minds are limited when it comes to that. So just let the knowledge be with Allah alone.

This is exactly the same case with atheists/agnostics, we don't know for sure what was before universe. We can't explain it and that is okay not knowing something, just like when theists are asked about the nature of their God. What if mother nature is a god? What if there is a set of atemporal sequences that has always existed and gives rise to universe and life? What if there is a god that only governs the balance of nature but doesn't intervene in human actions, doesn't punish nor reward humans? What if there is a god but need not to be worshiped, but just to be admired? Why can't such a God exists before religion teaches us their version of God? I'm not saying I believe in my own version of God, but these are all possibilities.

I am very glad you brought this up, because there is that confirms what i am saying. It is not simply because i want to automatically put a Creator in the equation by mere feelings. You said indeed why has it be God that always has existed? Why not something else? If you ACCEPT that something has always existed, whatever that may be, we can finally go to the next step to find out what this something is.

Within this universe there is already A LOT of knowledge. Atheism if you ask me in this case has fallen from the answer to say we follow this, because their mind is limited to what can be understood and be seen. While you for example say a agnosticism ..it can be God but he does not intervene with this or He just does that...or it is not God but just something else with Creator like ability etc. etc. etc.. These simple conclusions are at least you could say honest conclusions. While in atheism you see that they want to deny the simple conclusion of a Creator because they do not "feel" a Creator might indeed exist. I do not go by feelings you know.

So in case of the huge amount of knowledge that exists, i talk about all the religions as well as science it self. We analyze each one by logic, rationality and reason backed by scientific facts if this exists.

When we steal something we feel bad about it. When we help somebody we feel good about it. This being one of the many characteristics of our human nature. To give you another simple example, that the simplest person among us might even understand. We human beings have carnal desires and wanting to procreate. If i tell you that one can have control over these carnal desires in the sense as balance it, you can ONLY say..indeed i agree. There are moments that we fulfill these carnal desires and there are moments that we can control them to not be controlled by them.

However there are religions that prohibits of having these carnal desires all together. Referring to Christianity and Buddhism as they practice celibacy. Practicing celibacy goes against the basic human nature. I am STILL speaking logic, rationality and reason. If this goes against our human nature it goes against logic, rationality and reason. Those religions MIGHT contain some truths, but they do not contain all the truth. Which leaves a lot of other religions to search and find if they might be the real truth. If you want me to address each and every one of those religions, just say it and i will tell you. Or you can analyze them yourself and come to a conclusion.

Anyways that is what in the end brought me to Islam in the first place. After that as i myself do not speak Arabic fluently or understand most of it, looked at discussions between Muslims and other people like Christians and Atheist for example. The questions they gave to the Muslims and looked at the answer the Muslims gave. Each and every answer i tested by logic, rationality and reason with scientific evidence if existed. I visited anti-Muslim websites and i read those things they claimed about Islam. Every time i was SHOCKED to see what Islam was "saying"..how horrible things Islam was "saying". But then i went back to what Muslims were saying about these things. I noticed they each time went to the Arabic language and not the translation. They first explained what the Arabic word or sentence exactly meant then they explained the rest about this.

In the end i saw by majority of the attempts that those anti-Islam websites were taking things out of concept by simple leaving out 1 vers that any ignorant person could read and could twist the whole story around as not being bad, rather being good. But these kind of things they attempted and if somebody tells you 1 lie, you will stop believing him even if he tells you the truth. They were not HONESTLY trying to show people Islam was false, rather they wanted show people Islam was false by even twisting things deliberately. I myself do not like dishonest people as these people hold grudges/hatred and not intellectual argument.

Which in the end Islam confirmed what was before the big bang and what was before the big bang confirmed Islam. As Qur'an was telling that something exists outside this universe that cannot be comprehended and this being confirmed Islam by simple existing in our only theory/philosophical explanation. So one confirms the other. The other thing off course one could say why has it to be Islam? Why not another religion or not a religion? That has to do with the CLAIM Muslims make of Qur'an is perfect and does not contain any errors. As human being itself is imperfect and bound to make errors. We human beings follow what makes the most sense. As long there is no real evidence that contradicts this, we follow it. This is not blind believe, but believe as the outcome of a own research or thinking.

I have to agree with you on this, it kinda makes sense. I imagine being raped by multiple men and killed afterwards is the worst possible thing that could happen to a child, immediately I can't accept why God even let this happen. If the 'test' argument can't justify this then why not use the 'fate' argument? Maybe I'm the one who doesn't understand this concept in Islam. I presumed both the killers and victim are being tested. The killers, no problem, but the victim? Allah says he doesn't test anyone beyond their limit, but if this is the case, then I assume the limit is not even death itself, if the person dies then it becomes their fate? Correct me if I'm wrong.

There is a test and there is fate. When something is within your "control" and what i mean by this is i am having the choice to STEAL that new iphone or NOT to steal that new iphone. This is the test. When something is outside of your control, this is fate. For example the mother of person X dies in a car crash. Person X as well as the mother couldn't know the future. Knowing something is having the ability to control the outcome. NOT knowing something is out of your control. So the mother of that person X dying in a car crash is beyond the mothers control as well as beyond the control of person X. This is fate. So looking at the fate of that child, is exactly same argument. Did the parents knew the child would be abducted? Nope. Did the child know she would be abducted? Nope. Did the child had enough psychical force to fight against those people and kill them instead..nope. So if something is out of your control, it automatically becomes fate.

Another example. During war you have killed 5 people with your weapon. However person number 6 kills you. Within your ability and limit you could kill 5 people at the same time but when person 6 comes in the equation it becomes out of your ability. You do not have the mental ability to defend yourself against 6, but only 5 people at the same time. This becomes your fate. I have thought about this fate thing and i have found an example in the Qur'an.

"And similarly, We caused them to be found that they[who found them] would know that the promise of Allah is truth and that of the Hour there is no doubt. [That was] when they disputed among themselves about their affair and [then] said, "Construct over them a structure. Their Lord is most knowing about them." Said those who prevailed in the matter, "We will surely take [for ourselves] over them a masjid."" Qur'an 18:21

Read the bold part. If you read the complete story of the people of the cave in surah 18. These young men tried to stay hidden from society. But reading that bold part, saying "We caused them to be found" says, this was OUTSIDE of their control. They tried everything within their limits to stay hidden, STILL they were found. As again referring to "We caused them to be found". So the choice is being able to change something or choose something. When you have no control over it, it becomes fate. You get me?

Rape also is a human feeling. For example the other day i saw some mallard ducks "gang raping" a mallard hen. But this isn't true what i am saying. This is their nature they are doing what they are doing. The moment you forget that this life is a test, you do not agree with fate. In Islam we have 3 categories. Islam, Imaan and Ihsaan.

In one of the pillars of imaan is the fate part. Accepting the good and the bad about fate.

"Belief in the predestination by Allah of all things, both the (seemingly) good and the (seemingly) bad."

Source used: http://www.missionislam.com/knowledg...illarsiman.htm

What we see, seems sometimes a bad thing. But that might be a HUGE favor for that individual. In Islam the Day of Judgement is not something easy. I am not sure if you have seen some youtube videos talking about Day of Judgement. A day that your own mother would say i do not have any good deeds for you as i need them myself. The seriousness that people who were disbelievers biting on their hands wishing they had followed the right path. The person who was raped and killed in this world..on the Day of Judgement being so happy about their fate in this world as not having the sins on his/her name anymore. While the murders having them on their book. This perspective you seems to completely forget. Your whole argument surrounds around this world and what happens in this world. While this is 50% of the whole story. Somebody dying a peaceful death at old age and not having some years of agony in his/her bed is in Islam rather something to worry about. As harm and pain in Islam wipes out our sins. So it is all about your perspective.

I cannot relate as I don't believe about shaytans whispering stuff on me. What I believe changed me for the better was the fasting as Ramadhan's the only time I ever fast (including Shawal as well). It has been scientifically proven beneficial to health, people all around the world practices fasting be they're muslims or not. It curbs my urges to let out my anger, it balances my hormones/blood sugar level/ etc etc so I believe that's what made me more focused on my ibadah.

The biggest problem with science of today is. Everything that can be seen with the eye, is only concluded as science. This is the biggest issue. Some people are possessed but science ONLY acknowledges mental health problems. Your curtain suddenly moves while you were sitting on the cough..all windows and doors being closed and nothing thrown in the direction of the window..still blaming the wind for it. hahahha. Saying that no other dimensions exist based on how far our CURRENT science is, is PURE arrogance. Just like how our hearing is limited, while animals can hear other frequencies too the possibility of other dimensions could also be true. This is having a open mind. Another example. If you have a friend. You go and hang out with her maybe 6 times a week. After sometimes you guys like the same things..think the same..do the same. However if you have not visited her for like 6 months you two are completely out of SYNC. Yes, you read it correct. Out of sync. Your waves patterns have become different in those 6 months. Till this day i have not found scientific research explaining this, but you can agree with me that this really does exist. Islam for example also acknowledges this. In the past i have had this with some friends of mine. We are in a car and a see a red car. Some kilometers down the road or even 10 minutes later i started thinking about that red car..when i wanted to say something about it..he starts talking about that car that i wanted to say something about it. This happened multiple times not just once. These things science cannot explain. We know of brainwaves, but there is brainwaves and there is feeling something. A lot science is lacking.

I totally understand where you're coming from.. you and I are not so much different. I can say for sure that I was and am being very very truthfully honest with myself when I began questioning Islam and researching things. When I was a muslim there was a state where I'm 100% confident islam as the truth, I told myself changing my religion is impossible as everything about Allah makes sense. I pondered a lot BUT.. I only knew the 'good' part of Islam, the front side of the coin, but the other side? I turned a blind eye. Even my friends did. I found out that Islam justifies terrorism, slavery, etc, you know, the controversial stuff. Not that I didn't know it at first, but it has always been the part of Islam that I was scared to learn more about, we didn't discuss that in school.

What you mentioned above is likely when you view atheism as a belief system..in fact, it is not. Not all atheists believe in the same thing. They make assumptions, sometimes they believe they're right, sometimes they know they're wrong. I look at their views as merely possibilities of what could happen. The vast different opinions/interpretations itself is proof to me that Islam, or any religion, likely not be true. There are christians/hindus/jew/etc who believe to great extent and so devoted like muslims do in their religion and incapable of understanding from different perspectives. Suppose muslims are to interpret a matter a specific way, the nonmuslims deviated too far from the line, but still reach a reasonable and legit conclusion, but are going to hell for that, and I asked myself, do I want to believe in that religion? Not everyone can understand a particular ideology, but some can, that's why we see people converting to Islam because they are capable to understand the islamic point of view, but other people are just incapable and sometimes it really is impossible to understand when you're not in that position, every human brain is not the same. When I sit in a room full of non muslims, I wondered, why are they going to hell just because they don't interpret things the way I do?

However, I must say that, Islam is not particularly bad. I've seen the best of humanity in Islam, in my community usually the muslims are the best behaved. I learnt life lessons mostly from this religion. I still love some parts of Islam, I have no issue with pork, alcohol, hijab, relationships, lottery and stuff. But the flaws that I assume it is , just doesn't make it up.

I will be addressing the issue about Aisha some time later. Thank you for your advice, hope to see your reply soon.

Again, i am a PURE realist. Often i hear for example from a guy i know for a long time. He says i am a very negative person. Negativity is something else than realism. I see things how they are, not because they are bad or so. To give you an example.

If there is a problem, there is a solution.

A solution however is not just 1 solution. A solution can be multiple things. A solution can be something like "ideal solution" but it also can be "best solution". This world is a messed up place you know this i know this. We do not have to say that it is not. Ideal solutions are often portrayed as a utopia. However a utopia is based on something very unrealistic. As within a utopia it seems as if many factors are not included anymore. Humans are sometimes violent. Humans rape other humans sometimes. Humans kill other humans sometimes. So these ideal solutions are mere "dreams" in this life. As our human nature prohibits us to practice this utopia solution.

A best solution is something that can be achieved. A best solution has kept the human nature in check. Within Islam you see things and you do not get it. That is one of the BIGGEST tests for an individual. Will you judge what you see as something bad and keep it like that? Or will you judge it as something bad, but are willing to learn about it why it is why it is? I myself am ALWAYS open to listen to why something is what it is. Each time i have gotten a logical and rational explanation why it is how it is. To give you an example. In Islam a man can have multiple wives. Why is this? Just recently i saw a documentary about US men going to Ukraine searching for a wife. I am not making this up. In that documentary one of the people in charge of the agency SERIOUSLY said there are more women living in Ukraine then men. Again, i am seriously not making this up. I again when i heard it..replayed that part to hear if i heard it right. So the women there (some off course and some were chasing money) were searching for a man outside Ukraine as they wanted to marry. The ideal solution would be 1 man 1 woman. But that is simply a utopia, not realistic. So better to have multiple women marrying 1 man so they also can experience having children and a life.

In Islam slavery was a fact. But if you really investigate Islam and slavery you see some very odd things. Like if you have done something bad...free a slave or 2. That is contradictory to somebody saying Islam promotes slavery. So it takes time to abolish something. Just like drug addicts it takes time to get it out of the system.

I have been trying to get rid of many bad habits of mine and i have been at it for the last 4 years. I FINALLY ..in a very slow pace have reached a level that i don't watch movies that often anymore. As i myself have the opinion that they wast valuable time. Instead i want to read books more often that contain valuable knowledge. So this has taken me 4 years to achieve this level. It is absolutely not easy to get rid of certain habits. But slowly and also the people who do want to watch movies in general..take a distance from them. Do i regret it so far? Absolutely NOT. I feel my mind is functioning better. I am more alert, i ask even more questions and observe more things. Also i ponder more about stuff.

The only things that i still do watch are nature documentaries and documentaries in general.

So if you look at the "bad" side of Islam, first sit down and search what for wisdom is behind it. For example reading this.

"Prohibited to you are dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah , and [those animals] killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a head-long fall or by the goring of horns, and those from which a wild animal has eaten, except what you [are able to] slaughter [before its death], and those which are sacrificed on stone altars, and [prohibited is] that you seek decision through divining arrows. That is grave disobedience. This day those who disbelieve have despaired of [defeating] your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." Qur'an 5:3

Read the bold part. When we analyze and ponder about the word favor. It is something that one benefits from. It would be strange don't you think to see something bad and be called "favor". So the question we need to ask ourselves is, what is behind it that can be called favor? This i have OFTEN done and i have always seen this favor in the end or even part of the favor. Just recently a sister on this forum (may Allah reward her GREATLY) pointed at something, that made me realize why women are how they are. They by general meaning are everything except logical. While men are by general meaning everything except emotional. This however completes the other if you think about it marriage being completion of the deen. Also why women are by general meaning less logical, is rather a HUGE favor. If they were logical they would have already divorced us losers (men). Sorry to say this but i see that we men on many fronts lack the ability to do something or incapable to do something. A logical woman would have had multiple men to get every thing she desires from each men. Money from one, love from the other, carnal desires from the other, genes for children from the other etc. etc. etc. This you do see in nature for example. The female searches for the strongest male and mates with it. After that she goes to another male then another male.

You seeing non-Muslims, who says they will go to hell? That is YOUR saying not that of Allah. Since i became Muslim by choice i have had discussions with many people of other faiths including atheism, but also Muslims themselves. There are two character traits i have seen either one of these two in EACH ONE OF THEM. What are these? Honesty and dishonesty. If you are right a HONEST person will admit they are wrong. Dishonest people will not. This within Muslims even exist. We call these people munafiq. Hypocrites. They will lie to have it their way. I have had discussions with people of other faiths and i have seen dishonest people but also honest people. So when i see a room full of people who are not Muslims, i know among them are honest and dishonest people. The honest people Allah(swt) will lead in'sha'Allah. The dishonest people not.

Within the many discussions i have found two types of people who were not Muslims yet.

- Type 1(dishonest): They search for the truth, when they find it they do not follow it. Maybe out of arrogance or pride i am not sure, but they do not follow that path. These are the TRUE kaffir, as they know the truth with all their heart but they do not follow it.
- Type 2 (honest): They do NOT search for the truth, but when the truth is put on their path..they follow it.

So again you seeing a room full of people who are no Muslim and assuming they go to hell, this says something about you and your mentality not them and how Allah(swt) sees them. Think about it.

So the choice is yours to do what you want to do. However your arguments till now (no offense) are rather shallow from a logical, rational and reasonable point of view. Also the philosophical thoughts are kind of lacking. Again no offense, but what i say in this sentence should be sort of a reality check for yourself if what i am saying is true or not and why it is true or not. The right approach in this is, looking for why you are wrong, not looking why you might be right. To brand yourself to be right you can find 1000 excuses you are right. But find the reason why you might be wrong, that is more beneficial as you might learn more from it.

Peace and take care.

[Kazu]

Thank you and very sorry for the late reply. I was very overwhelmed and busy. I'll make sure I read and understand your comments, and everyone else's who posted. This journey back to Islam has been very hard for me as there are a lot of barriers, my points in this post are just the very surface of my doubts for Islam, and it's very very hard to explain/elaborate my points/turning my thoughts into words as I don't speak/write English well. I'm just hoping I'll find my way back to Islam someday.
If I could give a message to muslims in the forum; people just don't understand how hard this is for us ex-muslims as they just like to assume we're mentally disturbed or something.

[Simple_Person]

Thank you and very sorry for the late reply. I was very overwhelmed and busy. I'll make sure I read and understand your comments, and everyone else's who posted. This journey back to Islam has been very hard for me as there are a lot of barriers, my points in this post are just the very surface of my doubts for Islam, and it's very very hard to explain/elaborate my points/turning my thoughts into words as I don't speak/write English well. I'm just hoping I'll find my way back to Islam someday.
If I could give a message to muslims in the forum; people just don't understand how hard this is for us ex-muslims as they just like to assume we're mentally disturbed or something.

My argument is rather you are not mentally disturbed, but you have never took the time to WANT to know and especially TO UNDERSTAND what Islam is all about. Speaking as a born-Muslim-->turned to atheist--turned to a Muslim by choice. I blame culture most of it. Culture has become the poison of our minds. People only talk about USELESS things, questioning things for the sake of wanting to know and understand culture has prohibited. So set what YOU WANT to be the truth aside and look at reality and evidence that tells you what is reality. That would be the first step. Also never think me or even any one of the members here who call themselves Muslims have a guaranteed places in paradise. So do not feel as if you are superior OR inferior to us. Rather walk your journey and be honest. However do if you can make some time with the journey of religion. Death doesn't wait for you or for me.

[Kazu]

My argument is rather you are not mentally disturbed, but you have never took the time to WANT to know and especially TO UNDERSTAND what Islam is all about. Speaking as a born-Muslim-->turned to atheist--turned to a Muslim by choice. I blame culture most of it. Culture has become the poison of our minds. People only talk about USELESS things, questioning things for the sake of wanting to know and understand culture has prohibited. So set what YOU WANT to be the truth aside and look at reality and evidence that tells you what is reality. That would be the first step. Also never think me or even any one of the members here who call themselves Muslims have a guaranteed places in paradise. So do not feel as if you are superior OR inferior to us. Rather walk your journey and be honest. However do if you can make some time with the journey of religion. Death doesn't wait for you or for me.

I didn't say you think of me as mentally disturbed, but rather I've read some comments in the forum from muslims that we're fundamentally wrong in the head. I'm sorry but you can't judge me that I've 'never' took the time to study and understand Islam. I never want to take 'what I want to be the truth' as the truth, rather, I'm an observer, I look for hints in all things because religion will portray itself in everything, not just in the book. This is why I'm agnostic, not an atheist like you were.

[Simple_Person]

I didn't say you think of me as mentally disturbed, but rather I've read some comments in the forum from muslims that we're fundamentally wrong in the head. I'm sorry but you can't judge me that I've 'never' took the time to study and understand Islam. I never want to take 'what I want to be the truth' as the truth, rather, I'm an observer, I look for hints in all things because religion will portray itself in everything, not just in the book. This is why I'm agnostic, not an atheist like you were.

In the Qur'an Allah says truth is clear from falsehood. This simple sentence is amazing. You know why? Because there is a lot of wisdom behind it.

To me it not only says that one should not look at "little details" but just look and you will see. Just like if you look and you see a tree you see a tree ..you do not have to look for details to see a tree. This also is sort of a confirmation that separates people who believe and people who who disbelieve. What I mean by this is in another part Allah says this is for people who reason. I mean sure you have read those ayaat also. What does "people who reason mean?"..atheist say it is just a mixed up something that in the end has became what it has became. However using your mind you say only the mentally ill people come to such a conclusion that it all has come from "chance". Well i should better say, their hearts are ill, as this is even confirmed in the Qur'an. The mind agrees that things cannot become like this by mere chance, the heart however doesn't need logic, rationality or reason. Just follow YOUR truth.

I have had a friend who was also agnostic you know what agnostic have in common with atheists?..not seeing the tree anymore but looking for details to WANT to see something else. You said earlier why believers always have to put a Creator in the equation..to see such balance in the universe to even atom level..how possible can this come out of chance besides SOMETHING having made all of this. Even looking for details for people who reason they can come to the same conclusions. Scientists are baffled by the behavior of cells.

So all I see atheists and agnostics look for THEIR truth not the truth of what reality gives them.

You sister with your mouth and thought says you have already thought about Islam to know and understand Islam. Sister these days we human beings have become retarded and I am NOT kidding you. I am going to be 31 years old soon. Since early 20's at work back then I did not want to mix with guys my age during break. I went and sat next to people who were twice my age. The people my age all what they were talking about was girls, football, money...but ESPECIALLY football. Nowadays people say this is "normal" behavior..no sister this is NOT normal behavior. Now at the age of 30..all people are busy with is work, family and what comes with it. Many people when they start a family become suddenly too serious but still very ignorant and shallow in their thoughts.

I do not feel special at all. I like certain things and others like other things. However people pondering happened in the past way more often than now. Why? Because people are TOO preoccupied by TV and listening to music. I dare you to stop watching TV and listening music for at least 6 months. Your WHOLE mentality will change. Close your Facebook and all those "social" media accounts or not visit them anymore. Like the body need healthy food, the mind also need healthy things to absorb. Will you able? Do not prove it to me that you are able but instead go and ponder about why I say these things.

BTW, I became a atheist because I never stood still with reality and search for Islamic knowledge. All I got was atheism propaganda and SUPER SUPER SHALLOW CULTURE Islam. I am seriously DISGUSTED when I think if culture Islam. Sadly I cannot put the exact emotions here about what I feel about culture Islam but they are NOT positieve even in the slightest sense. Nationalism being the cause of this culture Islam. But sheep Muslims being TOO PROUD to stop and ponder about this fact. But yet again sub'han'Allah being born a Muslim doesn't garuantee someone that he or she will also die as a Muslim. This age is a HUGE favor also from Allah that we have internet. Much knowledge I have gotten from the Internet.

Peace.

[Scimitar]

You know what I find still very childish of this Kazu member?

He is worried about the suffering of humanity in the world, and blaming Allah for it - while not seeking to understand the reasons behind contrasted truth such as good intention and bad intention.

The irony on a very philosophical level is that Kazu has actually unjustly accused God of being evil - when he should have correctly identifed that God created the contrast of Evil by which one can measure the Good.

He also neglects to reason within himself that human suffering is temporary in this life and that those who suffer unjustly in this life are recompensed for it in the next. By the same token he also forgets the scope of Allahs creation, and that Allah created Heaven and also Hell, which is Eternal Punishment, and so - if Kazu - is thinking this world is evil because God is evil, and thus decides to disbelieve in God while knowing that God exists - then in effect - he's not just stupid, but absolutely insane.

Isn't that right Kazu?

Unless you think God does tours of hell fire for the dead only, lol

Scimi

EDIT: Kazu, in case this post goes over your head - you still believe, because you haven't convinced yourself that "there is no God".

So why make an enemy out of HIM?

Scimi

[Simple_Person]

You know what I find still very childish of this Kazu member?

He is worried about the suffering of humanity in the world, and blaming Allah for it - while not seeking to understand the reasons behind contrasted truth such as good intention and bad intention.

The irony on a very philosophical level is that Kazu has actually unjustly accused God of being evil - when he should have correctly identifed that God created the contrast of Evil by which one can measure the Good.

He also neglects to reason within himself that human suffering is temporary in this life and that those who suffer unjustly in this life are recompensed for it in the next. By the same token he also forgets the scope of Allahs creation, and that Allah created Heaven and also Hell, which is Eternal Punishment, and so - if Kazu - is thinking this world is evil because God is evil, and thus decides to disbelieve in God while knowing that God exists - then in effect - he's not just stupid, but absolutely insane.

Isn't that right Kazu?

Unless you think God does tours of hell fire for the dead only, lol

Scimi

EDIT: Kazu, in case this post goes over your head - you still believe, because you haven't convinced yourself that "there is no God".

So why make an enemy out of HIM?

Scimi

Brother Kazu is a sister

Also it is better if we show a way for her to achieve philosophical depth in her pondering. In this case for example taking a distance from social media, tv, music, shallow people and idle talk. This is poison to the mind and becomes very shallow because it absorbs shallow information to process. Thus the pondering of the mind becomes also shallow, because of the subject have not much dept to think about and thus everything is looked at from a very shallow way, including Islam.

As an example, follow Kim Kardashian and what she ate this morning. Well not much has to be pondered about it right? So this same mentality is being applied at ALL the subjects in life. Thus we human beings become very shallow individuals that act like animals as animals for what we see is about eating, sleeping, survival.

[Scimitar]

With respect, we all have a way to get through, do not interfere in mine and I will leave you to yours ;)

Scimi

[Simple_Person]

With respect, we all have a way to get through, do not interfere in mine and I will leave you to yours ;)

Scimi

To me with all honesty and respect, you brother have a very strange way to get through as i have seen you treat everybody the same way even me. But Allah knows your intention and i will leave you be, although i cared much enough try to make you ponder why i say what i say. However you clearly want me to stay away from your path, although i see you doing more harm than good while you being MUCH more knowledgeable than me in Islam.

[Scimitar]

you can't see the harm nor the good, you can only feel it ;)

And you recognise your own shortcomings - this is why you feel it.

Scimi

[Kazu]

You know what I find still very childish of this Kazu member?

He is worried about the suffering of humanity in the world, and blaming Allah for it - while not seeking to understand the reasons behind contrasted truth such as good intention and bad intention.

The irony on a very philosophical level is that Kazu has actually unjustly accused God of being evil - when he should have correctly identifed that God created the contrast of Evil by which one can measure the Good.

He also neglects to reason within himself that human suffering is temporary in this life and that those who suffer unjustly in this life are recompensed for it in the next. By the same token he also forgets the scope of Allahs creation, and that Allah created Heaven and also Hell, which is Eternal Punishment, and so - if Kazu - is thinking this world is evil because God is evil, and thus decides to disbelieve in God while knowing that God exists - then in effect - he's not just stupid, but absolutely insane.

Isn't that right Kazu?

Unless you think God does tours of hell fire for the dead only, lol

Scimi

EDIT: Kazu, in case this post goes over your head - you still believe, because you haven't convinced yourself that "there is no God".

So why make an enemy out of HIM?

Scimi

Why do I want to think God is evil, or even hate him, when I don't believe He even exists? It's the suffering that led me to believe a God couldn't have done this. Narrowing it down, I don't believe the Abrahamic religion version of God exists. Why would I make an enemy out of something or someone that I believe, doesn't exists? If he doesn't exist, your justifications of his actions would be irrelevant to me.

Maybe you're the one who are stupid if you're assuming I think that way. When I was muslim I used to think about every possible explanation that could justify why Allah did what He did to the unbelievers, including what you said in your comment. Obviously everything Allah does must have strong reasons behind them and I would just leave everything to His power. But this is not the case now. I care very much about the people around me, including my non-muslims neighbours who have been very nice to me and the muslim community. I care because I can.

However now, I couldn't make you, Mr.simpleperson, or any muslim, understand where I'm coming from, as we view things from completely different perspective, and maybe the way I'm describing things may have not made my points across. Muslims just couldn't understand how hard it is for these unbelievers to make sense of this religion if there're not in the appropriate position. Not everyone have the ability and the capacity to think critically, philosophically like the people in this forum. Most people just couldn't care or can't care because maybe they're too occupied with obtaining a living for themselves and their family, particularly the ones living in poverty, for instance, even though they might have heard the message of Islam. These people just resort to whatever they can find solace in in their early life, christianity, buddhism, hinduism, judaism, you name it, brought by their parents, because people always find comfort in prayers. Too bad they're going to hell. But the exceptions are the ones who just happen to be born in a muslim family. Even though they're not promised heaven, at least they'll eventually end up in it if they continue to be muslim. Even though one may not possess critical thinking. How lucky.

It is up to both of you if you want to call me stupid, insane, lacking logic, lacking rational thinking, lacking philosophical thinking, or whatever. What's important is I am being very honest with myself, and if Islam is really the truth, I really hope I will be back to it someday.

[Simple_Person]

Why do I want to think God is evil, or even hate him, when I don't believe He even exists? It's the suffering that led me to believe a God couldn't have done this. Narrowing it down, I don't believe the Abrahamic religion version of God exists. Why would I make an enemy out of something or someone that I believe, doesn't exists? If he doesn't exist, your justifications of his actions would be irrelevant to me.

Maybe you're the one who are stupid if you're assuming I think that way. When I was muslim I used to think about every possible explanation that could justify why Allah did what He did to the unbelievers, including what you said in your comment. Obviously everything Allah does must have strong reasons behind them and I would just leave everything to His power. But this is not the case now. I care very much about the people around me, including my non-muslims neighbours who have been very nice to me and the muslim community. I care because I can.

However now, I couldn't make you, Mr.simpleperson, or any muslim, understand where I'm coming from, as we view things from completely different perspective, and maybe the way I'm describing things may have not made my points across. Muslims just couldn't understand how hard it is for these unbelievers to make sense of this religion if there're not in the appropriate position. Not everyone have the ability and the capacity to think critically, philosophically like the people in this forum. Most people just couldn't care or can't care because maybe they're too occupied with obtaining a living for themselves and their family, particularly the ones living in poverty, for instance, even though they might have heard the message of Islam. These people just resort to whatever they can find solace in in their early life, christianity, buddhism, hinduism, judaism, you name it, brought by their parents, because people always find comfort in prayers. Too bad they're going to hell. But the exceptions are the ones who just happen to be born in a muslim family. Even though they're not promised heaven, at least they'll eventually end up in it if they continue to be muslim. Even though one may not possess critical thinking. How lucky.

It is up to both of you if you want to call me stupid, insane, lacking logic, lacking rational thinking, lacking philosophical thinking, or whatever. What's important is I am being very honest with myself, and if Islam is really the truth, I really hope I will be back to it someday.

Sister, nobody being Muslim or non-Muslim even dying as Muslims are guaranteed paradise.

So your logical is kind of flawed to be honest.



What Allah wants is your heart, not your mouth or your actions. One might say huh? What about actions? Isn't Islam all about actions/good deeds? No, it is NOT about good deeds, it is about your heart. INTENTION.

Honesty sister. That is why i have said often that i do not see a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu etc...all i differentiate is HONEST human beings and DISHONEST human beings.

If you have listened to that video you see that it has NOTHING to die as a Muslim with your mouth or actions. It comes to the ROOT core of all of it. Your heart. Your actions will follow what your heart intended. So saying "la illah ila Allah muhammad rasul Allah" will not benefit you even one bit, if your heart doesn't believe those words. Your good deeds are based on your good actions. You or me might do X and say it is a good actions, but deep down in our heart this was not a good action, rather it was so people might say.."woow what a good person".

So my advice to you as well as to me is CLEAN your heart. Clean your heart of arrogance, of pride of greed of envy etc. Know that part of arrogance is also acting as if you know better how things are than how they are.

A lesson to Muslims is the story of Al-khidr and Musa(as), where he went with him and saw things you and i would also say..woow ..EVIL.. yet we know by what we see. Our understanding is too limited to come to a conclusion of everybody who is not a Muslim goes to hell fire. Which by it self is false. Your neighbors might be more religious than you and i will EVER be in our entire lives, yet they might never have heard the true message of Islam, but still deep down believe in 1 God. You and i might end up in hell fire but they might end up in paradise. The problem so far with you is somebody somewhere has brainwashed you that whoever isn't a Muslim goes to hell fire. But even me telling you this i have the feeling that it will reach deaf ears.

So your problem is your heart, go and ponder a lot about things. You NEED that very much as i have also done it in my life. The evil on this world is brought by men and you want Allah to clean up the mess? How many Muslims are cowards because they fear the dictator, so rather want to live under a dictator than to sacrifice their lives to unite and fight back.

Be honest in your life and Allah will open your heart to see things that i am talking about. The reason even that you are having discussion shows some piece of honesty but sadly there are people even though they are Muslims say things that make you and i run away. I have talked to many of such a people. Just 2 hours ago a Christian Jehova witness brother came to my house, Wallahi when he went away i gave him a handshake with true love seeing him as a fellow brother, MORE than MANY Muslims now a days. He was so respectful, we saw many things eye to eye, he thought me even about them being one of the MOST closest to Muslims of All the sects of Christianity as they do not worship Jesus(as). Very honest and loving brother.

[Kazu]

In the Qur'an Allah says truth is clear from falsehood. This simple sentence is amazing. You know why? Because there is a lot of wisdom behind it.

To me it not only says that one should not look at "little details" but just look and you will see. Just like if you look and you see a tree you see a tree ..you do not have to look for details to see a tree. This also is sort of a confirmation that separates people who believe and people who who disbelieve. What I mean by this is in another part Allah says this is for people who reason. I mean sure you have read those ayaat also. What does "people who reason mean?"..atheist say it is just a mixed up something that in the end has became what it has became. However using your mind you say only the mentally ill people come to such a conclusion that it all has come from "chance". Well i should better say, their hearts are ill, as this is even confirmed in the Qur'an. The mind agrees that things cannot become like this by mere chance, the heart however doesn't need logic, rationality or reason. Just follow YOUR truth.

I have had a friend who was also agnostic you know what agnostic have in common with atheists?..not seeing the tree anymore but looking for details to WANT to see something else. You said earlier why believers always have to put a Creator in the equation..to see such balance in the universe to even atom level..how possible can this come out of chance besides SOMETHING having made all of this. Even looking for details for people who reason they can come to the same conclusions. Scientists are baffled by the behavior of cells.

So all I see atheists and agnostics look for THEIR truth not the truth of what reality gives them.

You sister with your mouth and thought says you have already thought about Islam to know and understand Islam. Sister these days we human beings have become retarded and I am NOT kidding you. I am going to be 31 years old soon. Since early 20's at work back then I did not want to mix with guys my age during break. I went and sat next to people who were twice my age. The people my age all what they were talking about was girls, football, money...but ESPECIALLY football. Nowadays people say this is "normal" behavior..no sister this is NOT normal behavior. Now at the age of 30..all people are busy with is work, family and what comes with it. Many people when they start a family become suddenly too serious but still very ignorant and shallow in their thoughts.

I do not feel special at all. I like certain things and others like other things. However people pondering happened in the past way more often than now. Why? Because people are TOO preoccupied by TV and listening to music. I dare you to stop watching TV and listening music for at least 6 months. Your WHOLE mentality will change. Close your Facebook and all those "social" media accounts or not visit them anymore. Like the body need healthy food, the mind also need healthy things to absorb. Will you able? Do not prove it to me that you are able but instead go and ponder about why I say these things.

BTW, I became a atheist because I never stood still with reality and search for Islamic knowledge. All I got was atheism propaganda and SUPER SUPER SHALLOW CULTURE Islam. I am seriously DISGUSTED when I think if culture Islam. Sadly I cannot put the exact emotions here about what I feel about culture Islam but they are NOT positieve even in the slightest sense. Nationalism being the cause of this culture Islam. But sheep Muslims being TOO PROUD to stop and ponder about this fact. But yet again sub'han'Allah being born a Muslim doesn't garuantee someone that he or she will also die as a Muslim. This age is a HUGE favor also from Allah that we have internet. Much knowledge I have gotten from the Internet.

Peace.

Oh brother....to be honest, Islam is not completely bad at all, there are a lot of wisdom in both the Quran and Hadeeth, back then I looked at them and I read them and I found absolutely EVERYTHING about Islam makes great sense with this world and my inner self (and some still is), I thought how could people not see this? I thought everything that is going on in this world aligns with the teachings of Islam, no way in hell there could be any mistake. But I realized I was only looking at one point of view, I thought that because I believed hard in Allah and was so afraid to cross the line, what about taking the neutral side?

How am I supposed to know and distinguish what Shaytaan wanted me to believe in, what myself wanted to believe in, what my family, community, government, kuffars, wanted me to believe in? So I just believe in myself. But when something goes wrong, they would say I have given myself to the devils. How am I supposed to buy that?

Why should we not look at little details? I look at the details because I want to know and understand every possible justifications/explanations that led people to believe why something is wrong or right, or why something is the way it is. I totally get that some people tend to always make effort to make sense of what they WANT to believe in by searching and looking at these little details. Though maybe because you currently believe in Allah who says these kind of people are the people who don't reason, is maybe the reason you are saying so. Aren't you a student before? I'm a science student, and if I say I only see a tree if I look at a tree, then I shouldn't be a science student anymore. A tree is NOT just a tree. If you look at it closely you'll see many combinations of living organisms to it such as fungi of various species and in fact some plants can't survive without them,and also particularly these microscopic eukaryotic and prokaryotic beings which holds the key to human survival. Also some plants if you look closely at them, they're actually animals. Do you really think that the world could have advanced to what it is today if people are only meant to see the 'tree'? Please enlighten me..Even Einstein wasn't religious. How am I supposed to buy that I'm among the people who 'don't reason' if all of my life I've been searching for reasons all over and I know I wasn't lying to myself?

Though I agree about that whole isolation part. In your mind, I'm just a little kid and you have most things figured out and I don't. Is that what you think? I've been a loner all of my life, I absolutely got that 'isolation' idea, and I think it's very important. I must stress that, even though I left Islam, not everything about Islam instantly became irrelevant to me. If I see the unbelievers insulting my muslim friends, I will still proudly defend them if I think my muslim friends are in the right. If that's what you got from atheism, I have nothing to say..

Peace

[Kazu]

Sister, nobody being Muslim or non-Muslim even dying as Muslims are guaranteed paradise.

So your logical is kind of flawed to be honest.

Sorry but I never said anyone are guaranteed paradise. But according to Islam, being Muslims even though they go to hell because the sins outweighed the deeds, they'll eventually end up in heaven after the punishment has been done. Unlike the non-muslims, who will burn in hell forever.

[Simple_Person]

Oh brother....to be honest, Islam is not completely bad at all, there are a lot of wisdom in both the Quran and Hadeeth, back then I looked at them and I read them and I found absolutely EVERYTHING about Islam makes great sense with this world and my inner self (and some still is), I thought how could people not see this? I thought everything that is going on in this world aligns with the teachings of Islam, no way in hell there could be any mistake. But I realized I was only looking at one point of view, I thought that because I believed hard in Allah and was so afraid to cross the line, what about taking the neutral side?

How am I supposed to know and distinguish what Shaytaan wanted me to believe in, what myself wanted to believe in, what my family, community, government, kuffars, wanted me to believe in? So I just believe in myself. But when something goes wrong, they would say I have given myself to the devils. How am I supposed to buy that?

Why should we not look at little details? I look at the details because I want to know and understand every possible justifications/explanations that led people to believe why something is wrong or right, or why something is the way it is. I totally get that some people tend to always make effort to make sense of what they WANT to believe in by searching and looking at these little details. Though maybe because you currently believe in Allah who says these kind of people are the people who don't reason, is maybe the reason you are saying so. Aren't you a student before? I'm a science student, and if I say I only see a tree if I look at a tree, then I shouldn't be a science student anymore. A tree is NOT just a tree. If you look at it closely you'll see many combinations of living organisms to it such as fungi of various species and in fact some plants can't survive without them,and also particularly these microscopic eukaryotic and prokaryotic beings which holds the key to human survival. Also some plants if you look closely at them, they're actually animals. Do you really think that the world could have advanced to what it is today if people are only meant to see the 'tree'? Please enlighten me..Even Einstein wasn't religious. How am I supposed to buy that I'm among the people who 'don't reason' if all of my life I've been searching for reasons all over and I know I wasn't lying to myself?

Though I agree about that whole isolation part. In your mind, I'm just a little kid and you have most things figured out and I don't. Is that what you think? I've been a loner all of my life, I absolutely got that 'isolation' idea, and I think it's very important. I must stress that, even though I left Islam, not everything about Islam instantly became irrelevant to me. If I see the unbelievers insulting my muslim friends, I will still proudly defend them if I think my muslim friends are in the right. If that's what you got from atheism, I have nothing to say..

Peace

Sister, my specialties are mostly philosophy and human psychology. I ask questions such as what came before the big bang sort of stuff. I do not except "maybe this or maybe that". I look at possibilities. I have pondered a lot about what came before the big bang and ONLY 1 philosophical answer stood firm. Something must have existed before which has NO beginning. This something must have caused the big bang. This answer Islam answers it perfectly.

You have atheists who say ..multi-verse, you have atheists who say i do not know..you have atheists who say repeated cycle of exploding, imploding..exploding etc. However yet again what came before? This philosophical question is like SUPER annoying fly that doesn't leave you alone. So again, the ONLY answer to this question was something MUST already exist to make sense. Although philosophical answer, somehow science even confirmed this to me. With time and space coming in to existence with the creation of the big bang. So whatever is outside this universe isn't going by the definition of how we see time and space. When this ESSENTIAL question has been answered, the rest of ALL the questions also found their answers. Being Islam.

From how we look at the world, how we look at ourselves, how we ourselves are and behave and why things are how they are. I do not go by "blind believe" you know. I want to know things and understand things, but i always start with a humble attitude. What is this attitude? To know that what i know isn't everything and there is much more knowledge that i do not know, but willing to learn. To understand what i do not yet understand as there is MORE that i do not understand than what i do understand, and also willing to understand and keep my mouth shut and my ears open and my mind open to process, digest, ingest, be skeptical, ask questions..but always for the sake of being a student. This very simply step i see many of us human beings Muslim, atheist, christian, jew, hindu etc. somehow miss or don't find important.

I have seen Muslims act all arrogant because they KNOW more then me and just because they know more than me i should keep my mouth shut and not be skeptical by asking questions. Yet they themselves fail to understand that UNDERSTANDING is something COMPLETELY different than having knowledge. There are converts that when they read the Qur'an, they instantly UNDERSTAND a TRANSLATED aya, yet many Muslims being hafiz of the Qur'an and speaking Arabic on high level not having the understanding of the same aya as the converts.

What sheytan wants you to believe and what you want to believe are rather easy at the end. Ponder about things. Turn off everything and just ponder. Why is this this and why is that that? How come i did this and what happened to me? In the past for example the days i missed fajr prayer, i analyzed those times. When did i wake up? What time did i go to sleep? Why did i went late to sleep? What time did the sun rise and how much time was between me waking up and sun rising? Often i woke up middle in the night without alarm clock..i could do whatever i wanted, but just about 2 hours before sunrise i got very sleepy. The times that i fell asleep i woke up maybe 5 minutes before sunrise or 10-15 minutes after sunrise. The more i kept track of those times i saw a trend. This same behavior happened in the summer as well as winter..so always just around sunrise ..in other words missing the prayer.

So you see a certain trend and looking at Islamic teaching and the way sheytan works you see it clearly. Or for example, surfing on the net..no feeling of going to the bathroom..but suddenly seeing ooh time is almost up for prayer..better go and pray..suddenly feeling that i need to go to the bathroom. I have even once just out of laziness went back on my laptop suddenly the feeling to go to the bathroom went away. But when i wanted to go to pray again..it again came back that i needed to go to the bathroom.

So these are very little details but you see something is going on. Or even having the desire to look at something haram, but the moment seeking refuge from sheytan..the desire going away. Some people might say well it is something psychological rather spiritual..

I OFTEN when want something or want to know something it is within certain time period exactly given to me. For example, just last week i had the intention to want to know Christian end of times prophecies, suddenly today a Jehova Witness came at my door and i had a very respectful talk with him and he giving me certain information where i could look it up those prophecies. Or knowing something today and suddenly the next week somebody asking me EXACTLY about that thing that i read last week. Once or twice is coincidence one could say, but sister i have had this continues for the last 4 years since i entered Islam. Again coincidence is one thing, but happening again and again and again..is kind of strange don't you think? 2 years ago a woman i talked to she left Islam and she was talking about being possessed once in her life. She said every time i heard the Qur'an being recited i ran out of the house screaming. After some time we just threw all the furniture out of the house and bought new furniture. She said maybe her mother in law had done sihr on her. Yet all these things she was saying and experiencing, she did not believe in the Qur'an or came back to Islam. I find these things remarkable.

I will not benefit if you come back to Islam or even stay away from Islam. All i know is death is a fact. When we end up in our grave, whatever the truth might be there is NO way to come back. Rather ponder a lot and be skeptical, but all with honesty. Allah often in the Qur'an says about the disease in their heart, why? How? Who is to be blamed? I have had talks with people even with the Christian brother today he said going to some people's houses to spread the message some people are so angry and hateful of God because of a loved one having cancer or some sort. I mean what has logical thinking to do with anger? Nothing..ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It much resides in the heart. The heart is filled with emotion especially with women as they are emotionally stronger than men. That is why you see MORE women converting to Islam than men.

So live your life, you will see that the words i am saying aren't lies or trying to brand you as something bad, but you will find nothing there that i can PROMISE YOU. As I can say.."BEEN THERE..DONE THAT..". I have tasted the life you think is the life, but it is all emptiness. When you look in the eyes of people..you see emptiness. Their smiles are empty. Their happiness is for a moment..their joy is for a moment..the amount of suicides has been rising continuously in the west. WHY?? People have everything they desire and wish to have, yet emptiness and sadness. People have zina EVERY DAY of the week one guy to another..one girl to another..yet they are sad from within. You see guys and girls surrounded with friends and family but they are empty and lonely and sad from within.

Sister i am not trying to make things "look" bad i swear, but i have lived that live and i have lived with such people. The STARE they have, I KNOW of that stare because i had the SAME EXACT stare as them. What am i doing? Why am i doing what i am doing? Is this it? I have what i wanted it..why am i not satisfied yet? You see people being all hyped up to go to the disco, the moment they are drunk you hear their sad stories and loneliness. At the gym people are so happy they can have a chat with you that before you know they are keeping you already for an hour from doing exercise because of loneliness and sadness..find meaning in their lives.

Do what you want to do as you have free will, but you will think about my words in'sha'Allah and in'sha'Allah better soon than late.

If you want to know or understand something, you are always welcome.

Peace.

[Simple_Person]

Sorry but I never said anyone are guaranteed paradise. But according to Islam, being Muslims even though they go to hell because the sins outweighed the deeds, they'll eventually end up in heaven after the punishment has been done. Unlike the non-muslims, who will burn in hell forever.

Sister the one with arrogance the size of a mustard seed will NOT enter paradise. You think non-Muslims will enter hell forever just because Allah says so? You do not know what is going to happen it seems on the day of Judgement. The people going to hell fire THEY WILL AGREE that THEY DESERVE hell fire. Let me repeat that once again, THEY WILL AGREE THAT THEY DESERVE HELL FIRE!!!! How on earth does somebody who feels treated unjustly will agree that he deserves hell fire? Again, How on earth does somebody who feels treated unjustly will agree that he deserves hell fire? This you do not ponder about. If i die as a non-Muslim and i agree that i deserve hell fire, this MEANS that indeed i have gotten the message of Islam or even 1 Creator, but DELIBERATELY ignored it. So the person who KNOWS Islam is the truth, but on PURPOSE did not follow. This is arrogance. So again, the people who go to hell fire WILL AGREE THEY DESERVE HELL FIRE!! No soul will be treated unjustly, yet you seem to miss this point and i am not sure how come.

Could you please explain this to me?

Edit:

"Those to whom We have given the Scripture recognize it as they recognize their [own] sons. Those who will lose themselves [in the Hereafter] do not believe." Qur'an 6:20

Allah confirms here for example the ones who recognize the truth as they recognize their sons. With this i will say for sure the scholars among them who are learned, yet did not accept the Qur'an. So PONDER about things sister there is MUCH that you it seems to refuse to see and think people will just be kicked in hell fire without any judgement or justification because they were not Muslims =_=!.

[CosmicPathos]

Sorry but I never said anyone are guaranteed paradise. But according to Islam, being Muslims even though they go to hell because the sins outweighed the deeds, they'll eventually end up in heaven after the punishment has been done. Unlike the non-muslims, who will burn in hell forever.

Yes, so? That is an a priori requirement to be a Muslim. If you cannot accept that outcome or it does not fit in with your personal views of how things ought to be, then sorry, you are not really looking for religion, as your own personal views are most important to you and it seems you are quite satisfied with them. So, then, what is the big deal if you left Islam? You should be satisfied that your personal views are the right ones and you should be at peace with yourself. But are you?

And sorry, there is no philosophical proof or mathematical theorem to show why unbelievers should burn in hellfire forever. It is just the way Islam says it is. So what is your purpose on these forums, if I may ask?

[TDWT]

I also ask myself, why do people who have had terrible things happen to them still believe in God and become much stronger in their faith? If you've lived as a Muslim, then you should know that this worldly life is ephemeral. Yes we do get tested, but it's not always with pain and it's not always with ourselves. All of us are tested in very different ways. It's through certain tests that we gain experiences and strength that we otherwise would not have had. But I understand what you mean, the fact of the matter is that our focus is the afterlife and our good deeds. So if someone dies or is in pain, be it a child or an adult, the purpose for it is individual and that knowledge is with Allah solely.



You're right, during that time things were different in regards to the mindset of the people. Does it mean that these days it is unacceptable islamically if the circumstances are very similar as you had pointed out?? No.

But if we are going to go by definition here, pedophilia is characterized by any 16 year old or older who is attracted to prepubescent kids. That means that if a 16 year old boy is attracted to a 13-year old girl, he is a pedophile. To be honest, this definition doesn't make sense because girls these days look much older than they really are and considering the age gap between them, it's only 3 years.

You could argue that you're talking about a 50 year old man wanting to marry a 9 year old girl, but it's not really that different because honestly guys are attracted to females point blank. If the girl is attractive, a guy will be attracted to her regardless of her age. There are 70 year olds who are married to 18 year olds, that's a 52 year difference. There are 13 year olds married to 14 year olds; both being "underage" and pubescent. If you want to follow a western ideology, then when it comes to marriage, age shouldn't matter, right??

Marriage should not be something that strips away from a person's life, it's something that is a blessing. Anything that makes it feel otherwise is poisonous. It's not something that should happen in secret or as a business transaction (like some cultures make it where they "sell off" their daughters). It's a celebration of two people who believe they are compatible for the rest of their lives, who will balance one another in faith, and who are following the laws ordained by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. That being said, the majority of scholars believe that is preferable for girls to marry once they reach the age of puberty (sexual maturity), and not before. But for the rare cases that it does happen, then it depends on the interests of the girl first and foremost. Girls these days are sexually curious and having intercourse at 9 years old. I personally think marriage is much more suitable and safer for them than in a culture that condemns "child marriages" but does very little in preventing a sexually geared atmosphere where they can easily be raped, molested, and pregnant. So there's really nothing that says that it's unsafe for girls to get married or be in a relationship at that age unless the marriage is unhealthy and destructive in nature which is unislamic. And when it comes to pregnancies, there are complications in every pregnancy whether the woman is an adult or a child. Some women die too..so really that's not a strong argument. The child marriages you imagine are the ones that come out of poverty, backward cultures, and ignorance. The pedophiles you think about are the ones where men can be attracted to boys just as well as girls, who are a danger to children, and who victimize them. None of this is allowed in Islam.

Now with your comment regarding why shouldn't all men emulate the prophet pbuh and marry children? Because the prophet did not marry for the sake of his desires and he married a range of different women and he treated them all very well and they loved him to death. Marriage in general is sunnah. It's not obligatory. Marrying children isn't obligatory either. It's just something that is allowed if something of that case happened where a man finds himself interested in a girl and she is of a certain age. In the US there are many states which have no age minimum for marriage. Isn't that crazy? But the difference with the westernized world and Islam is that Islam has universal rules. It's not based on the whims and desires of people where it changes ever so often. The connotation of pedophilia often comes with a lot of perversions that are not allowed in Islam, and there is no exception to it whether the man who wants to marry is 13 or 70.

What 9 year olds do you know are having sex in this day and age?????! I mean, I understand back then, it was not pedophilia as it was common at the time, but this line:


You could argue that you're talking about a 50 year old man wanting to marry a 9 year old girl, but it's not really that different because honestly guys are attracted to females point blank. If the girl is attractive, a guy will be attracted to her regardless of her age. There are 70 year olds who are married to 18 year olds, that's a 52 year difference. There are 13 year olds married to 14 year olds; both being "underage" and pubescent. If you want to follow a western ideology, then when it comes to marriage, age shouldn't matter, right?

There are so many things wrong with this line. First, an 18 and 70 year old is different because an 18 year old is soooooo much more mature than a 9 year old! A 9 year old is a child! You cannot compare the two. And second, I myself don't agree with 13 year and 14 year old dating or sex, but at least it's between two of them similar in age. And you're line about men being attracted to females regardless of age is absurd! I will never, ever, find myself attracted to a child who is 9 or 10! Men are not sex-crazed pigs who will sleep with any female. For a majority of men, they are not attracted to children.

[TDWT]

I also ask myself, why do people who have had terrible things happen to them still believe in God and become much stronger in their faith? If you've lived as a Muslim, then you should know that this worldly life is ephemeral. Yes we do get tested, but it's not always with pain and it's not always with ourselves. All of us are tested in very different ways. It's through certain tests that we gain experiences and strength that we otherwise would not have had. But I understand what you mean, the fact of the matter is that our focus is the afterlife and our good deeds. So if someone dies or is in pain, be it a child or an adult, the purpose for it is individual and that knowledge is with Allah solely.



You're right, during that time things were different in regards to the mindset of the people. Does it mean that these days it is unacceptable islamically if the circumstances are very similar as you had pointed out?? No.

But if we are going to go by definition here, pedophilia is characterized by any 16 year old or older who is attracted to prepubescent kids. That means that if a 16 year old boy is attracted to a 13-year old girl, he is a pedophile. To be honest, this definition doesn't make sense because girls these days look much older than they really are and considering the age gap between them, it's only 3 years.

You could argue that you're talking about a 50 year old man wanting to marry a 9 year old girl, but it's not really that different because honestly guys are attracted to females point blank. If the girl is attractive, a guy will be attracted to her regardless of her age. There are 70 year olds who are married to 18 year olds, that's a 52 year difference. There are 13 year olds married to 14 year olds; both being "underage" and pubescent. If you want to follow a western ideology, then when it comes to marriage, age shouldn't matter, right??

Marriage should not be something that strips away from a person's life, it's something that is a blessing. Anything that makes it feel otherwise is poisonous. It's not something that should happen in secret or as a business transaction (like some cultures make it where they "sell off" their daughters). It's a celebration of two people who believe they are compatible for the rest of their lives, who will balance one another in faith, and who are following the laws ordained by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. That being said, the majority of scholars believe that is preferable for girls to marry once they reach the age of puberty (sexual maturity), and not before. But for the rare cases that it does happen, then it depends on the interests of the girl first and foremost. Girls these days are sexually curious and having intercourse at 9 years old. I personally think marriage is much more suitable and safer for them than in a culture that condemns "child marriages" but does very little in preventing a sexually geared atmosphere where they can easily be raped, molested, and pregnant. So there's really nothing that says that it's unsafe for girls to get married or be in a relationship at that age unless the marriage is unhealthy and destructive in nature which is unislamic. And when it comes to pregnancies, there are complications in every pregnancy whether the woman is an adult or a child. Some women die too..so really that's not a strong argument. The child marriages you imagine are the ones that come out of poverty, backward cultures, and ignorance. The pedophiles you think about are the ones where men can be attracted to boys just as well as girls, who are a danger to children, and who victimize them. None of this is allowed in Islam.

Now with your comment regarding why shouldn't all men emulate the prophet pbuh and marry children? Because the prophet did not marry for the sake of his desires and he married a range of different women and he treated them all very well and they loved him to death. Marriage in general is sunnah. It's not obligatory. Marrying children isn't obligatory either. It's just something that is allowed if something of that case happened where a man finds himself interested in a girl and she is of a certain age. In the US there are many states which have no age minimum for marriage. Isn't that crazy? But the difference with the westernized world and Islam is that Islam has universal rules. It's not based on the whims and desires of people where it changes ever so often. The connotation of pedophilia often comes with a lot of perversions that are not allowed in Islam, and there is no exception to it whether the man who wants to marry is 13 or 70.

Also, you're claim about complications in pregnancy is incorrect as well. It's more dangerous for a younger person to give birth as their bodies are not as developed as a grown woman!!!!!!, their bodies are at a higher risk. I;m sorry if I come across as harsh, but learn about biology and human anatomy before you say things. Again, I'm sorry for saying this, but this is the post is just one of the most ridiculous and absurd things I have read in a while.

[*charisma*]

What 9 year olds do you know are having sex in this day and age?????! I mean, I understand back then, it was not pedophilia as it was common at the time, but this line:

13% of students reported ever having had sexual intercourse (10% of sixth graders, 13% of seventh graders, and 17% of eighth graders).
46% of sexually active students reported having had sexual intercourse with three or more partners (44% of sixth graders, 43% of seventh graders, and 46% of eighth graders).
62% of sexually active students reported using a condom at last sexual intercourse (61% of sixth graders, 58% of seventh graders, and 66% of eighth graders).
25% of sexually active students reported having had a sexually transmitted disease (33% of sixth graders, 23% of seventh graders, and 20% of eighth graders).
31% of sexually active students reported drinking alcohol or using drugs before last sexual intercourse (26% of sixth graders, 38% of seventh graders, and 28% of eighth graders).

Source

This concerns children between the ages of 11-13. If 13% are sexually active at 11 years old with 62% being with multiple partners, then there's no doubt that it began earlier than that age.

Besides that report, kids were promiscuous at my school growing up too and that was years ago. I don't even want to know what they are like now.

Also, you're claim about complications in pregnancy is incorrect as well. It's more dangerous for a younger person to give birth as their bodies are not as developed as a grown woman!!!!!!, their bodies are at a higher risk. I;m sorry if I come across as harsh, but learn about biology and human anatomy before you say things. Again, I'm sorry for saying this, but this is the post is just one of the most ridiculous and absurd things I have read in a while.

I have a pretty good science background considering I wanted to go to medical school, so I know a good amount of biology and human anatomy, so thanks.

But here's a biology lesson for you, a girl who has not hit puberty cannot get pregnant. If it happens, it's rare. Puberty is the marker that says a girl's body is ready to conceive. With that comes other body changes such as wider hips for giving birth and the formation of breasts for nursing. Every pregnancy can potentially have complications, it doesn't matter the age. Islam takes in the welfare of the girl before anything else. so if a girl has not yet hit puberty, she should not be touched or even married off which I've already mentioned. I'm unsure what you are arguing here.

[TDWT]

13% of students reported ever having had sexual intercourse (10% of sixth graders, 13% of seventh graders, and 17% of eighth graders).
46% of sexually active students reported having had sexual intercourse with three or more partners (44% of sixth graders, 43% of seventh graders, and 46% of eighth graders).
62% of sexually active students reported using a condom at last sexual intercourse (61% of sixth graders, 58% of seventh graders, and 66% of eighth graders).
25% of sexually active students reported having had a sexually transmitted disease (33% of sixth graders, 23% of seventh graders, and 20% of eighth graders).
31% of sexually active students reported drinking alcohol or using drugs before last sexual intercourse (26% of sixth graders, 38% of seventh graders, and 28% of eighth graders).

Source

This concerns children between the ages of 11-13. If 13% are sexually active at 11 years old with 62% being with multiple partners, then there's no doubt that it began earlier than that age.

Besides that report, kids were promiscuous at my school growing up too and that was years ago. I don't even want to know what they are like now.



I have a pretty good science background considering I wanted to go to medical school, so I know a good amount of biology and human anatomy, so thanks.

But here's a biology lesson for you, a girl who has not hit puberty cannot get pregnant. If it happens, it's rare. Puberty is the marker that says a girl's body is ready to conceive. With that comes other body changes such as wider hips for giving birth and the formation of breasts for nursing. Every pregnancy can potentially have complications, it doesn't matter the age. Islam takes in the welfare of the girl before anything else. so if a girl has not yet hit puberty, she should not be touched or even married off which I've already mentioned. I'm unsure what you are arguing here.

1. These grades are not 9 years old as you claim, their ages range from 13-14, so your claim at 9 years old having sex is ridiculous as 9 year olds are usually 3rd-4th graders.

2.Ok even if they are having sex, looks, it's a very small minority and that doesn't make it ok. And even though I am strongly against people that age having sex, they are at least having it with each other rather than as you said, someone who is much older, like a man in his 50s.

3. Again, it doesn't back up your absurd claim that men are attracted to women regardless of their age. I'm sorry, that is not true at all. Most men are not attracted to 9 year olds today

4. Yes, I know, a girl who has not reached puberty cannot get pregnant. But as I was saying, pregnancy at an earlier age(13 for example) opposed to 30, is more risky as their bodies are still developing. Just because a girl can be having babies, doesn't mean she should.

5. Again, back then, I wold like say, I am not saying the prophet was not pedophilia as his other wives were much older and it was common back then.

[*charisma*]

1. These grades are not 9 years old as you claim, their ages range from 13-14, so your claim at 9 years old having sex is ridiculous as 9 year olds are usually 3rd-4th graders.

Since when were 6th graders 13 years old?? Lack of evidence doesn't mean it's not happening, it means that ethically students are not questioned without the parent's permission, which I assume is the case. There are cases where 10 year olds are pregnant.

2.Ok even if they are having sex, looks, it's a very small minority and that doesn't make it ok. And even though I am strongly against people that age having sex, they are at least having it with each other rather than as you said, someone who is much older, like a man in his 50s.

loool what's the difference??

3. Again, it doesn't back up your absurd claim that men are attracted to women regardless of their age. I'm sorry, that is not true at all. Most men are not attracted to 9 year olds today

Are you a girl? Do you have any idea how much girls get hit on and harassed by older men? Do you realize how big of a problem human trafficking of girls is?? Of course not, because you aren't one. So this claim is not absurd at all, especially when a young girl is developed.

4. Yes, I know, a girl who has not reached puberty cannot get pregnant. But as I was saying, pregnancy at an earlier age(13 for example) opposed to 30, is more risky as their bodies are still developing. Just because a girl can be having babies, doesn't mean she should.

I agree, but it happens whether we agree with it or not.

Every individual case is different. What the prophet pbuh allowed doesn't mean that it should be widespread as common practice especially with changing times. So I am not advocating for every little girl to get married off. However, if it happens to be that being married off to someone is better for her then I don't see any issue with it so as long as no law is broken and the girl is well taken care of. We do not know the circumstances today in which a family would get to the point where they feel that their daughter is better off married. Our opinions don't matter in the end, what is allowed is allowed as long as no oppression is present.

[TDWT]

Since when were 6th graders 13 years old?? Lack of evidence doesn't mean it's not happening, it means that ethically students are not questioned without the parent's permission, which I assume is the case. There are cases where 10 year olds are pregnant.



loool what's the difference??



Are you a girl? Do you have any idea how much girls get hit on and harassed by older men? Do you realize how big of a problem human trafficking of girls is?? Of course not, because you aren't one. So this claim is not absurd at all, especially when a young girl is developed.



I agree, but it happens whether we agree with it or not.

Every individual case is different. What the prophet pbuh allowed doesn't mean that it should be widespread as common practice especially with changing times. So I am not advocating for every little girl to get married off. However, if it happens to be that being married off to someone is better for her then I don't see any issue with it so as long as no law is broken and the girl is well taken care of. We do not know the circumstances today in which a family would get to the point where they feel that their daughter is better off married. Our opinions don't matter in the end, what is allowed is allowed as long as no oppression is present.

1. It said 6th, 7th and 8th graders, around ages of 12-14, my mistake. Also, just because it does happen does not mean it is ok. Also, with 10 year olds, those are rare case. Most children do not have sex. Again, it is a minority

2. Are you serious? You can't see the difference between two people who are similiar in age, maturity and physical development having sex between a grown man sleeping with someone much younger? The latter is more risky

3. Yes, there are pedophiles out there, but to say that men in general are attracted to women regardless of age is just absurd and completely ridiculous. Are you a man? do you know how we think? Also, how about the countless of men who speak up against this? As well, there are women sleeping with younger men as well...does that mean women are attracted to young men.

[*charisma*]

1. It said 6th, 7th and 8th graders, around ages of 12-14, my mistake. Also, just because it does happen does not mean it is ok. Also, with 10 year olds, those are rare case. Most children do not have sex. Again, it is a minority

Actually 6th grade starts with 11 year olds. So lower it another year. And who said it was ok for kids to be sexually active?? Again I don't know what you are arguing??

2. Are you serious? You can't see the difference between two people who are similiar in age, maturity and physical development having sex between a grown man sleeping with someone much younger? The latter is more risky

Please enlighten me. What risks are you talking about here?

3. Yes, there are pedophiles out there, but to say that men in general are attracted to women regardless of age is just absurd and completely ridiculous. Are you a man? do you know how we think? Also, how about the countless of men who speak up against this? As well, there are women sleeping with younger men as well...does that mean women are attracted to young men.

This isn't about pedophiles, these are normal men. Women are attracted to younger men if they are attractive, just as older men are attracted to younger women if they are attractive. What is so difficult to comprehend about that? If a girl looks older than she is (which isn't uncommon considering girls hit puberty at 8 and 9 years old!), guys will find them attractive.

[Umm♥Layth]

One thing that is not being considered in this young girls discussion is the fact that humanity as a whole HAS BEEN DUMBED DOWN. The 9 year old of 1400 years ago is nothing at all whatsoever like the 9 year old of today (especially in western countries). Women are maturing psychologically slower and slower even if their bodies develop sooner. A baby ready body doesn't equal to a baby ready mentality. There are 25 year old women who behave like 15 year olds. This behavior is relatively new as well and this goes for males too by the way.

Children that have sex today are usually children who are not cared for properly or who have freedoms they should not have at that age. Before institutionalized school (not that long ago!) boys usually went to work with their fathers (or took over father's duties if fathers were away) and girls stayed home with the mothers, so there was generally no real mixing of genders or unsupervised children. Compare that to my little pony and minecraft minds of today. Kids no longer do chores (generally speaking) and parents drop them off to be educated by somebody else for 8+ hours per day while they are away totally clueless of their children's daily interactions.

Child marriage shouldn't be considered or accepted in any way shape or form in modern age in my estimation. Just because people of yester year did it, does not make it okay today. Not long ago, women were being married off at ages 15-18 (both of my grandmothers married off at this age), but again, maturity levels were vastly different. The youth of today lack basic life and home making skills.

So really, what I'm saying is that both sides have a valid point. As for the childbirth stuff, Maryum was about 12 years old when she gave birth to Isa (as) if I'm not mistaken. If a body is mature enough to bare a child, it will manage just fine both at 12 years of age or even 50! The complications come from poor health, not from an inability to give birth. :)

[*charisma*]

One thing that is not being considered in this young girls discussion is the fact that humanity as a whole HAS BEEN DUMBED DOWN. The 9 year old of 1400 years ago is nothing at all whatsoever like the 9 year old of today (especially in western countries). Women are maturing psychologically slower and slower even if their bodies develop sooner. A baby ready body doesn't equal to a baby ready mentality. There are 25 year old women who behave like 15 year olds. This behavior is relatively new as well and this goes for males too by the way.

Children that have sex today are usually children who are not cared for properly or who have freedoms they should not have at that age. Before institutionalized school (not that long ago!) boys usually went to work with their fathers (or took over father's duties if fathers were away) and girls stayed home with the mothers, so there was generally no real mixing of genders or unsupervised children. Compare that to my little pony and minecraft minds of today.

Child marriage shouldn't be considered or accepted in any way shape or form in modern age. Just because people of yester year did it, does not make it okay today. Not long ago, women were being married off at ages 15-18 (both of my grandmothers married off at this age), but again, maturity levels were vastly different. The youth of today lack basic life and home making skills.

So really, what I'm saying is that both sides have a valid point. As for the childbirth stuff, Maryum was about 12 years old when she gave birth to Isa (as) if I'm not mistaken. If a body is mature enough to bare a child, it will manage just fine both at 12 years of age or even 50! The complications come from poor health, not from an inability to give birth. :)

Yes that's all true and I completely agree. However, considering that for whatever reason a scenario occurs where a young girl does get married due to being the exception of what you've just said, it's still not haram. It's just not the norm.

[TDWT]

Actually 6th grade starts with 11 year olds. So lower it another year. And who said it was ok for kids to be sexually active?? Again I don't know what you are arguing??



Please enlighten me. What risks are you talking about here?



This isn't about pedophiles, these are normal men. Women are attracted to younger men if they are attractive, just as older men are attracted to younger women if they are attractive. What is so difficult to comprehend about that? If a girl looks older than she is (which isn't uncommon considering girls hit puberty at 8 and 9 years old!), guys will find them attractive.

1. It is more risky, considering the bodies of a 50 year old and 9 year old are developed greatly, it can hurt the girl. Also, the 50 year is more mature, 9 year old is far from it, can lead to emotional manipulation

2.No, normal men are not attracted to 9 year olds!

[*charisma*]

1. It is more risky, considering the bodies of a 50 year old and 9 year old are developed greatly, it can hurt the girl. Also, the 50 year is more mature, 9 year old is far from it, can lead to emotional manipulation

So two promiscuous sexually active kids, who are at risk of
STDs,
teen pregnancy,
potential sexual abuse,
potental mental health problems,
and not to consider the haram in it

are less at risk than

a girl who marries an older guy in a halal matter,
who follows the sunnah,
who will take care of the girl

just because her body may not match her husbands (because when does it ever?) and she might feel pain??
And this is considering that the girl can absolutely be sexually mature at that age.

Right..makes so much sense.

2.No, normal men are not attracted to 9 year olds!

I beg to differ. But again..opinions here don't matter.

[TDWT]

So two promiscuous sexually active kids, who are at risk of
STDs,
teen pregnancy,
potential sexual abuse,
potental mental health problems,
and not to consider the haram in it

are less at risk than

a girl who marries an older guy in a halal matter,
who follows the sunnah,
who will take care of the girl

just because her body may not match her husbands (because when does it ever?) and she might feel pain??
And this is considering that the girl can absolutely be sexually mature at that age.

Right..makes so much sense.



I beg to differ. But again..opinions here don't matter.

1. All of what you said above can apply to the the older men marrying a women. Bottom line, 9 years old having sex is just wrong regardless if it's another 9 year old or 50 year old.

2.Seriously? I don't know why you think that men are sex crazed pigs who are attracted to children. So you're telling me, that normal men are attracted to this:

http://www.eymm.com/wp-content/uploa...040133crop.jpg

I'm just sorry, but you thinking normal men are attracted to children is just absurd ridiculous and borderline asinine.

Let's ignore the human EVOLUTIONARY drives to bond and form meaningful relationships.
That from forming these meaningful relationships, our brains produce chemicals that boost our sexual attraction to our partner.
Let's ignore that sexual preferences age as we age.
Let's also ignore that many women don't even hit puberty until 14, and that, purely biologically speaking, they're considered high risk in terms of carrying offspring in the same way as a 50 year old would be, since their cycles have probably not even stabilized yet.


It's actually well known that carrying a child below the age of 16 is extremely dangerous. If we're going to assume that we're all cavemen, it actually doesn't make sense to be attracted to a woman until her hips have spread, since it's likely that her narrow pubescent hips will result in her and your child's death. Remember that doctors and hospitals are an invention and not part of all these caveman theories terpers love.
Under sixteens are still considered very high risk pregnancies and that's in a society with advanced medical care.

[*charisma*]

1. All of what you said above can apply to the the older men marrying a women. Bottom line, 9 years old having sex is just wrong regardless if it's another 9 year old or 50 year old.

But we aren't talking about men marrying older women?? So I don't understand your point?

2.Seriously? I don't know why you think that men are sex crazed pigs who are attracted to children. So you're telling me, that normal men are attracted to this:

http://www.eymm.com/wp-content/uploa...040133crop.jpg

I'm just sorry, but you thinking normal men are attracted to children is just absurd ridiculous and borderline asinine.

Your link isn't working, but if you believe that all 9 year olds can be depicted in one picture you are in for a rude awakening. Also don't twist my words, men are attracted to attractive girls. If a 9 year old has the body of a 14 year old, then where's your argument?? Because these girls exist. Please expand your knowledge. Not all 9 year old girls look alike here. Secondly, if it's a rare thing for a man to be attracted to a 9 year old girl as you say, then what's the problem? If it's a rarity then you don't have to worry about it considering the cases would be quite individual and it wouldn't be your place to judge when you don't know all the details.

Let's ignore the human EVOLUTIONARY drives to bond and form meaningful relationships.
That from forming these meaningful relationships, our brains produce chemicals that boost our sexual attraction to our partner.
Let's ignore that sexual preferences age as we age.
Let's also ignore that many women don't even hit puberty until 14, and that, purely biologically speaking, they're considered high risk in terms of carrying offspring in the same way as a 50 year old would be, since their cycles have probably not even stabilized yet.

Don't make me laugh...loooool "evolutionary drives." Go tell those who are having premarital sex that their "evolutionary drive" is failing them when they hit it and quit it. Where is the emotional and rational connection you speak of during those times?? looool subhanallah.

It's actually well known that carrying a child below the age of 16 is extremely dangerous.

No, it's not "extremely" dangerous. It just has some risks. Teen pregnancy is VERY common. Also if the hips are too small they can have a c-section.

[Umm♥Layth]

I don't think anyone on this thread is a scholar who is well learned on exactly what was the situation with Aisha (ra) and there are different takes on her age and consummation of the marriage (and no, I don't mean the apologist take). I don't think there is a man alive today who can even come remotely close to how fair, just and God fearing our prophet was. I truly don't believe there are any exceptions to marrying off a 9 year old in this age. Allahu Alim.

Even if a girl is an early developer (I was one and so is my daughter), getting your first period doesn't mean you are fully developed. It takes years of menstruation and hormone fluctuations to get a fully developed womanly shape. I still had not developed a real womanly shape even 3 years after my first period. Also, early onset menstruation is actually a hormonal imbalance and girls with more adipose tissue than muscle tend to menstruate earlier. Adipose tissue stores hormones.

In modern days, early onset menstruation it is known to be caused by the hormones and steroids in conventional dairy and meat products. Girls 100 years ago were starting to menstruate at about 14/15 years of age, imagine earlier times.

And don't get me started about modern "medicine" and their lack of faith in Allah and how perfectly he created the human body. A pregnant body WILL ADAPT. There is no such thing as "hips that are too small". There are women who never get wide hips and give birth to very big babies. If we take care of the body properly, it will behave as it should. ;)

[Samiul123]

Sister Kazu, the way I believe is through the Quran which you talked about. The Quran is the best book for why you should believe in god as a whole. You see in youtube as you type in a sura the people from far time throughout have recited the Quran's words for every sura the exact same way as you find a quran in a book. Inshallah sister you should study more and be guided ameen.

[Simple_Person]

But we aren't talking about men marrying older women?? So I don't understand your point?



Your link isn't working, but if you believe that all 9 year olds can be depicted in one picture you are in for a rude awakening. Also don't twist my words, men are attracted to attractive girls. If a 9 year old has the body of a 14 year old, then where's your argument?? Because these girls exist. Please expand your knowledge. Not all 9 year old girls look alike here. Secondly, if it's a rare thing for a man to be attracted to a 9 year old girl as you say, then what's the problem? If it's a rarity then you don't have to worry about it considering the cases would be quite individual and it wouldn't be your place to judge when you don't know all the details.




Don't make me laugh...loooool "evolutionary drives." Go tell those who are having premarital sex that their "evolutionary drive" is failing them when they hit it and quit it. Where is the emotional and rational connection you speak of during those times?? looool subhanallah.




No, it's not "extremely" dangerous. It just has some risks. Teen pregnancy is VERY common. Also if the hips are too small they can have a c-section.

Sister leave the argument. This brother doesn't want to understand certain things. He looks at such things from a shallow modern way of life. Sees such things as black and white and from a western point of view. While I 100% agree with you that it isn't black and white. I see girls 14-15 years old having the body of a 30 year old women so being attracted to it well is being attracted to it. However when looking at their behavior being continuously on their smartphone like a child shows the shallow and childish mentality of today. Women even though around my age of today also very shallow minded are preoccupied by Kim Kardashian things. It is a doomed generation.

In the past as an atheist I tried to date a western girl and I remember I seriously got so annoyed and even told her why are we even trying to hang out with each other. There is no real talk in our conversations...we have nothing in common ..all I hear from you is useless talk and I am seriously annoyed by it. I remember also if the amount of text that I type here and other members type in their comments..she would already be bored and stopped reading after 2-3 sentences. She even told be a lot of times. I don't get it how one can express themselves in 2-3 sentences?? I did not get it how other men are able to cope out with such shallow people. Or is it all for the sake of getting zina? How low have men become. Alhamdulillah I never could become like them even as an atheist as that wasn't part of my character I tried to mentally force myself to be like it but I just couldn't treat another human being like piece of garbage. Alhamdulillah for all the good that Allah has given me as part of my character.

And you know what? She was about 2 years younger than I was. Society has be ome useless everybody like sheep following one another nobody is thinking and nobody is asking questions. The best is to seek refuge in your own homes.

[Simple_Person]

I don't think anyone on this thread is a scholar who is well learned on exactly what was the situation with Aisha (ra) and there are different takes on her age and consummation of the marriage (and no, I don't mean the apologist take). I don't think there is a man alive today who can even come remotely close to how fair, just and God fearing our prophet was. I truly don't believe there are any exceptions to marrying off a 9 year old in this age. Allahu Alim.

Even if a girl is an early developer (I was one and so is my daughter), getting your first period doesn't mean you are fully developed. It takes years of menstruation and hormone fluctuations to get a fully developed womanly shape. I still had not developed a real womanly shape even 3 years after my first period. Also, early onset menstruation is actually a hormonal imbalance and girls with more adipose tissue than muscle tend to menstruate earlier. Adipose tissue stores hormones.

In modern days, early onset menstruation it is known to be caused by the hormones and steroids in conventional dairy and meat products. Girls 100 years ago were starting to menstruate at about 14/15 years of age, imagine earlier times.

And don't get me started about modern "medicine" and their lack of faith in Allah and how perfectly he created the human body. A pregnant body WILL ADAPT. There is no such thing as "hips that are too small". There are women who never get wide hips and give birth to very big babies. If we take care of the body properly, it will behave as it should. ;)

There are some scholars who say she was of that age there are others who say she was older. My approach is she was of the age of being a woman in Islam AND also agreed to marry Rasullah (saws).

These two things are the ONLY VALID things from a valid point of view for a woman to marry. Forced marriages are haram so how could Aisha (ra) marry Rasullah (saws) if she did not agree to it?..That would have been contradictory to the message Rasullah (saws) was sending. Secondly she must be a woman again if she would not have been this would have been contradictory to the message of what Rasullah (saws) was sending. Knowing this..what was her age then? Allah knows best. Is it relevant for me to know? Absolutely not. If I would have a 25 year old daughter looking at her body looking like a woman but having a childish mentality I would NOT agree for her to marry. She would do herself, her husband and her children injustice of she would marry. This however is not reflected upon on the western world.

[greenhill]

I realised that my answer was too short but I was hoping that sister Kazu would watch the Jeffrey Lang video on Youtube as I believe it would help explain some of her own questions and perhaps doubts. But I guess she hasn't.

If you are still wondering about Aisha, I heard (maybe read) where this narrative explained how, first of all the prophet loved and lived with a SINGLE woman, Khadijah until her death and sometime after, even. He was faithful to her although she was a divorcee. The prophet, pbuh, only became a polygamist AFTER Khadijah's death and even then for political alliances, freeing of slaves and also to make clear of laws of permissibilites. Never had the prophet have a 'special' woman for him that was a virgin except for Aisha that Allah had arranged for him. This, coupled with the fact that we should judge muslims by what is permissible in islam and not by what is acceptable by Western standards, means that there is really nothing to be really concerned abut.

To add to this, sometime last week I came across a video of a third world country kid of probably 7 years old, taking care of an infant baby and the comments that were strewn by people from developed countries were words to the effect of "I wouldn't trust my teenagers to do this"! .. How come? It is not that the children are not capable, the west also knows this, England had children doing dangerous jobs during the times of the industrial revolution. The death rates and injuries doing the jobs were no different to those of adult labourers and is due to the lack in safety measures and not immaturity. In any case, exploitation is not good, and those kids were, hence the gradual laws to 'protect' them.

Moving on a bit, you mentioned about innocent kids made to suffer and I would like to draw your attention to the story of Khidr and Musa pbut about the killing of the child (or was it both?), there are many stories from within the Quran that, if we studied more closely, gives glimpses of unseen logic, the Wisdom of Allah. Besides, we are not told to judge the affairs of others but to concern ourselves with our own matters. Our own matters has the number one duty as being Allah's humble and dutiful servant. This 'belief' would radiate outwards to how we would dictate our actions and speech. What happens to others are the test which Allah has set for them. What we should be realising is how fortunate we are not to be test such as theirs. We should thankful for having our lives in better shape than them, hence we could even go as far as saying our problems are pale in comparison and appreciate what Allah has given us (but not to forget to dua for those suffering)..

Really, there are some more thoughts on the OP but it is getting long already...


:peace:

[M.I.A.]

Greetings people, Muslims and nons, no offense to the Muslims. I want to get this off my chest for a long time. I'm a closet ex-muslim, 22. Since childhood I had so many doubts about Islam, particularly about the existence of God himself. How can God let really evil things happen? if everything evil meant to happen because God wants to test us and given that the tests given aren't supposed to exceed our limit as humans, why do God let terrible things happen to children? There are cases some children were kidnapped from their houses, was gang-raped, and burnt to death. How was that a test? I may just be really ignorant for not making sense of this, kindly, please enlighten me.

But then, after all of that, I would repent to Allah and became religious. I found myself always going back and forth. In the past, I used to cry in my sujood, I used to cry when reading the Koran, I used to be very careful with my thinking bcos I feared Allah so much. I loved Ramadhan very much, that's the only time I truly felt connected to Allah by doing extra prayers, learning stuff & taking care of my inner self. Normally people would usually dread bcos of the fasting, but really I loved Ramadhan, it truly made me a better person, but just like every other religion will make people become a better person. My family weren't very religious, so I searched God most by myself. But until I opened myself to the outer world, I started becoming friends with some non muslims, reading forums and articles etc. I changed my views on life, I became very liberal in my thinking, and this wasn't a good thing. I debated with my muslim friends and I just couldn't convince them anything bcos of how conservative they are. I heard religious teachers said on TV that Islam favors blind faith over logical thinking so Muslims shouldn't first and foremost use logic when dealing with religion. I couldn't believe what I just heard. If this is what humans should be, then I don't think the world could have advanced to what it is now.

There are some controversial verses of Quran and Hadiths that I just couldn't make sense of, especially the part about the prophet's wife Aisha. I've had non muslims asking me about this, no matter how hard I tried to make sense, I know deep in my heart I was just convincing myself, not them. Aisha might be a smart, mature girl for her age, but sorry this is not excuse for pedophilia. Would you marry off your girl to a 50+ old man , just to be fair, assuming the man is not just plain old man, but handsome , looking younger than his actual age, very kind in heart and very religious, even with the girl's consent? Apologists will say this was acceptable at that time, but I thought Islam is supposed to be timeless as I was taught in school. If he is the perfect role model then I think all muslims should aspire to do the same thing as well. Child marriages is still an actual thing happening now and it strips off lives of young girls. Some of these girls suffer complications at childbirth like anal fistula because they are too young to give birth. Some cases girls die of internal bleeding because their sexual organs are not compatible. I understand that the girl needed to be checked whether they're ready to withstand penetration, I say this can be misjudged and girls are not born just to be penetrated.

I became agnostic several months ago, I stopped praying 5 times. No, no satan is whispering on me. How can I blame the satan for my own actions? Tbh it left a void in me but this is just because I lost something I used to usually keep in my heart. I was like a meat lover who just became vegan. But after some while I felt normal like every other person but sad that I have to pretend to my family all of my life. I'm not really happy not believing in God, I want to believe spiritually, I want to be in heaven with all my loved ones, but with these flaws in religion I just couldn't. If there are anybody here who used to be atheists/agnostic, can you share how did you even make sense of this? I don't want to continuously pretend to everyone. Soo sorry for the length and Tq

Bad things happen because our lives are always intertwined..

People are unaware of what they do when they start or finish or anything in between..

And most people get by just fine without that understanding.

So you either open and close your own doors or hope..

That something you have not met yet is a good doorman.


Pray more

Or play more..

Allah swt raises and lowers as he wills.

I aint ever seen a person turn up to football and get worse.

..so why would anyone be content with sitting on the sidelines getting fat.


Heres waiting on the day.. to be told the truth of all that we did.

But to be honest.. the truth is subjective..

And i dont really know What you class as successful.. or what it costs.

Mankind is insolence and competition..

Not many people would lead you to a successful life..

Although i suppose part of you already knows that.


...but if your empathy allows for locked doors then they come with there own struggles.

See, a nice simple answer for ya.

[TDWT]

Sister leave the argument. This brother doesn't want to understand certain things. He looks at such things from a shallow modern way of life. Sees such things as black and white and from a western point of view. While I 100% agree with you that it isn't black and white. I see girls 14-15 years old having the body of a 30 year old women so being attracted to it well is being attracted to it. However when looking at their behavior being continuously on their smartphone like a child shows the shallow and childish mentality of today. Women even though around my age of today also very shallow minded are preoccupied by Kim Kardashian things. It is a doomed generation.

In the past as an atheist I tried to date a western girl and I remember I seriously got so annoyed and even told her why are we even trying to hang out with each other. There is no real talk in our conversations...we have nothing in common ..all I hear from you is useless talk and I am seriously annoyed by it. I remember also if the amount of text that I type here and other members type in their comments..she would already be bored and stopped reading after 2-3 sentences. She even told be a lot of times. I don't get it how one can express themselves in 2-3 sentences?? I did not get it how other men are able to cope out with such shallow people. Or is it all for the sake of getting zina? How low have men become. Alhamdulillah I never could become like them even as an atheist as that wasn't part of my character I tried to mentally force myself to be like it but I just couldn't treat another human being like piece of garbage. Alhamdulillah for all the good that Allah has given me as part of my character.

And you know what? She was about 2 years younger than I was. Society has be ome useless everybody like sheep following one another nobody is thinking and nobody is asking questions. The best is to seek refuge in your own homes.

Oh don't give me that excuse, that I am 'westernized' or something. This is my own mentality. We were talking about 9 year old and I don't think they should have sex at all, period.

[Simple_Person]

Oh don't give me that excuse, that I am 'westernized' or something. This is my own mentality. We were talking about 9 year old and I don't think they should have sex at all, period.

There are people who say a woman of 40 shouldn't also marry a man who is 25 years old but what matters is what Allah has made permissible and what you are doing is looking from a shallow point of view as if people are "attracted" to children. The problem is not the ruling rather your mentality and how you look at. But anyways you are not able to understand what we are tying to say.

[M.I.A.]

Oh don't give me that excuse, that I am 'westernized' or something. This is my own mentality. We were talking about 9 year old and I don't think they should have sex at all, period.

Historically, the age of marriage is debatable..

Google it and you will find cases made for the young age of marriage.

They are written by muslim authors but the case is made either way.

And they are well written.

Not muslim sources show a differing opinion from amongst themselves..

Which is interesting.

But yeah, it is a westernised opinion you hold and one that is the general consensus for the era.

Like monogamy.

But if you dont have to do something, then most people dont do it.. unless they have reason and intent..

And those vary considerably.

https://youtu.be/HsbWwXaujp8

[Kazu]

There are people who say a woman of 40 shouldn't also marry a man who is 25 years old but what matters is what Allah has made permissible and what you are doing is looking from a shallow point of view as if people are "attracted" to children. The problem is not the ruling rather your mentality and how you look at. But anyways you are not able to understand what we are tying to say.

Since I can't send a private message anymore, let me just write here responding to your previous pm to me


Hi.. I'm still here, more agnostic than ever, although a little bit more inclined to deism rather than atheism, and more away from Islam ever since. I'm calmer now, since you told me to stay away from the social media for a couple months, at least mainstream medias. I'm sorry I didn't get the part you said I should mark your words that I will one day realize what you meant. Don't you think what you are saying is just, stereotyping?

That one moment when you bow down to your god and feel the calmness, and all of a sudden things just suddenly fits properly into the islamic expectation you had, then maybe after a couple while learning to adjust yourself with that belief system, eventually you accepted you have became a muslim again. This is cognitive bias.

You do realize people find solace in whatever they believe is comforting, prayers, in just ANY religion at all. People die believing in the religion they submit to because they found so much comfort in it, and more importantly the community that intensely support the belief system and the welfare of its people.

Just because I find comfort in praying and the idea someone always has my back, does that make him immediately real? On what basis you would think God is real at that moment if it weren't for confirmation bias? Maybe you have this pre-existing idea in the back of your head, you still wanted to believe god is real because all these bad things you have done made you feel guilty and trying to find reasons for this restlessness. (because you haven't done it before and its a culture shock! and realizing people who converted away from islam are more likely to have these type of behaviour, why don't you think this is because they were previously strictly restrained from it? People always want what they can't have. Moreover, a typical nowadays westerner teenager/young adult do actively engage in these behaviour.)

Now there's nobody you can turn to, except one whom you've been told will ALWAYS have your back, who is allah. and you confirmed it, in bias. Once you start believing in God Allah, you are obligated to follow all of his teachings, thus strengthening your faith even more.

Disagreeing with me is not possible anymore because you can't doubt Allah once you submitted to him. A muslim must always think of Allah with well intention and thoughts even if things seem to be going in the opposite direction than what was well intended, because you can't comprehend him, maybe what he was doing is for the greater good. You will find any reasons at all from islamic point of view to validate your stance, as I will validate my stance, although I believe I'm being on the more neutral side here. This MAYBE was your action.

Now my point is, this general idea of 'feeling' 'founding solace and comfort' 'just feeeelingg and bowing down' or telling me that I 'WILL realize' one day ; is not a very good tactic at all as just any one coming from another religion can tell you the same thing, and reverted back to their previous religion. Take david wood as an example and that 'converted2islam' guy who had converted back to christianity.

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

@Kazu

As your well-wisher, sister, we can only guide you to the extent that you are willing to be guided. You are right on one end that all religions purport to offer comfort and security for the believer of that religion and certainly in that regard Islam cannot be said to be an exception. However, not all religions will equally appeal to different people for different reasons.

As Muslims we cannot advise you except to good. So, knowing the state of your heart, I can only advise you to continue to ponder, think, reflect, travel the earth, and meditate whenever you're able with the intention that you be shown the path that is best. Moreover, I think you should pray as sincerely as you can the typical atheist/agnostic prayer, which goes something like, "O God, if there is a god, if you're there, guide me to your Guidance." Of course, you can change the prayer to suit your spiritual needs or feelings of whatever at the moment, but I think this prayer is a good prayer to pray for whoever is a doubter because it is leaving the responsibility of being given the guidance to the Guide. And once you pray that prayer, please do not expect the sky to shift, the earth to open, or the sea waves to stop its waves, because all that prayer guarantees is that that guidance will be given to you by the Guide at the most appropriate and opportune time; in the meantime, you should live your life to the best of your morals, character, and judgment.

Also, you're right that as Muslims we'll be biased towards the faith and path we have chosen for ourselves. However, please do give thought to examining your own biases on what you think religion is/should be and why and what you believe what you do at the moment; because trust that self-reflection and introspection will specifically better move you towards the direction of truth if you're searching for truth and improve the condition of your heart than generally extrospection.

Finally, individuals like David Wood and converted2islam are at the end of the day two individuals, individuals who have flaws just like you and me and the rest of humanity. But I assume unlike you and me and many people from humankind, these individuals are semi-known YouTube personalities, yet you cannot say you know them at the end of the day any more than they know you. And all you would know are things that they choose, meaning, you have no choice in what information is known to you, specifically their inner hearts and motives. Therefore, I do not think you should take them as examples of what you can or cannot think about religion. Rather, you should take them as individuals that represent only their opinions and themselves in much the same way that I represent only myself and my opinion and you represent only yourself and your opinions. You cannot be said to represent at this moment deism any more than you can be said to represent atheism, for example.

Also, if you're going to try to learn about what path is best for you, I suggest you also try to hang out with the modern-day individuals whom you perceive as displaying or embodying that path in the best way to see if you would like to adopt that path. And if you find that even the people who embody that path in the best way are not the people whom you would like to emulate, then I suggest you walk away because then probably that path is not best for you. Perhaps you may not realize this, but I think you're perhaps in the inner search mode without knowing so, and thereby are unable to appreciate the gift of Islam as yet, but I think all is not lost if you're willing to humble yourself enough to pray the agnostic/atheist prayer because humility is something that Allah appreciates from any servant of humankind who is so willing to dress himself/herself with that dress. And Allah honors seekers who humble themselves for the sake of guidance.

Sincere Regards & Best Wishes,

[*charisma*]

Now there's nobody you can turn to, except one whom you've been told will ALWAYS have your back, who is allah. and you confirmed it, in bias. Once you start believing in God Allah, you are obligated to follow all of his teachings, thus strengthening your faith even more.

Something about faith is, you either have it or you don't. Those who don't have it won't believe no matter how much they want to; and those who have it cannot disbelieve no matter how difficult it is for them to comprehend the difficulties or confusions they go through. [...]Allah sends astray [thereby] whom He wills and guides whom He wills[...] (14:4)

Disagreeing with me is not possible anymore because you can't doubt Allah once you submitted to him.

This is contradictory considering you considered yourself a Muslim at one time, and considering that there are people who do stray from the religion. I can't tell you much about what you're going through or how you cope with life because every individual's journey to faith is different. However, to say that people believe in God or religion simply because it is "comforting" is not true. As you know, people can live very comfortable lives without religion. In fact, Islam tells us that this world is a prison for the believers and a paradise for the disbelievers. You think that what makes your heart ache is suffering and a test and therefore religion allows you to cope with the trials of life, true, but this is just one side of the coin. We are tested with the blessings in our life too, such as how we spend our wealth, how we raise our children, how we treat those around us, etc. Everything is taken into account and this doesn't bring a believer comfort to know that he can be making mistakes or guilty for a sin even when everything good is going in his life. Take into account those who do not fit the mold of a "perfect Muslim." For example, is it a comforting life for a muslim man who believes he is homosexual and his desires are contradictory to his beliefs? How about a woman who is gifted with a beautiful singing voice or a talent but knows that she is not able to share it with the world? You say you feel comfort in sujood as an ex-muslim, well imagine how a Muslim who prays 5x a day feels when he is unable to connect to His Lord. Or how about the wealthy person who cannot feel proud because pride can take you directly to hellfire. Ask these people why they believe in God, or did they leave their religion because of their whims and desires?? Basically what I'm saying here is despite how religion makes us feel, how it is in line or against our daily trials of life, what our whims and desires are, if you have faith, you will have it despite anything and everything you go through because you have an untouchable faith, not because of how you "feel" or what you were equipped with in life. In fact, if anything, people LEAVE their religion because they are seeking comfort. Because let's be honest here, it's much easier to say "this religion can't be true because it doesn't correlate with who I am/what my family believes/how I was born/my society/etc." than to say "this religion is true despite of who I am." It's easier to follow a lifestyle that supports everything you want to do in life without repercussions than to follow one which restricts you. So no. Religion doesn't always bring about a comfortable life; but alternatively there are those who have done everything in their life with the support of their family and friends, and have not found happiness or comfort in that either. However, an atheist doesn't just go "oh I'm unhappy in my life, let me pretend to believe in God so that I can find solace." It doesn't work that way. Faith in Allah is also not enough to be a proper muslim, rather it must transpire into our intentions, speech, and actions, too, and I don't think that's easy either. The solace you speak about, that's the topping on the cake, not the cake itself. It wouldn't matter what religion one is in if the goal was comfort.

you still wanted to believe god is real because all these bad things you have done made you feel guilty and trying to find reasons for this restlessness. (because you haven't done it before and its a culture shock! and realizing people who converted away from islam are more likely to have these type of behaviour, why don't you think this is because they were previously strictly restrained from it? People always want what they can't have. Moreover, a typical nowadays westerner teenager/young adult do actively engage in these behaviour.)

Culture shock? We live in the west. And you don't need to leave Islam to the sinful things you want to do. For example, drinking, partying, engaging in premarital/extramarital relationships all still happen even while one is Muslim, and repenting from them doesn't stop the guilt.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Greetings people, Muslims and nons, no offense to the Muslims. I want to get this off my chest for a long time. I'm a closet ex-muslim, 22. Since childhood I had so many doubts about Islam, particularly about the existence of God himself. How can God let really evil things happen? if everything evil meant to happen because God wants to test us and given that the tests given aren't supposed to exceed our limit as humans, why do God let terrible things happen to children? There are cases some children were kidnapped from their houses, was gang-raped, and burnt to death. How was that a test? I may just be really ignorant for not making sense of this, kindly, please enlighten me.

Greetings Kazu,

It seems that at an early age rather than learn correct knowledge of Islam in order to solidify your imaan and clarify your misconceptions, you referred instead to atheist and anti-Islamic perspectives, sources, websites and mainstream media.

With regards to why you think God allows "evil" things to happen then firstly everything only happens by the will. God allows people to live the way they want to live and make the choices they want to make in life. Whether that is evil or good. Is that not what freewill is? On top of that we in our limited capacity, do not understand why things happen just as science can try to explain how some things happen but never why. Similarly we do not understand the wisdom of God in why certain things happen but know that we are responsible for our actions and whatever hardships and trials we go through in this short and temporary life then it is nothing compared to the ever lasting joy and bliss of Paradise. If you compare then the evil inflicted upon people then this is nothing compared to the punishment they will recieve for their crimes.

However this is not what Atheists believe. To believe in life after death is to believe in justice for those who were wronged. It is only God who will ensure those who were wronged are given true and proper justice. Not an atom of injustice will there be in the court of Allah. Whereas this world is full of injustice and corrupt people who do not allow proper justice for those who are wronged.

So do you think that the many millions of people who have died whilst wronged on this Earth will get no justice after they died? Will they and those who wronged them just turn into "dust"? Essentially Atheists do not believe that there is any difference between the worst and best of mankind because they will both just "disappear" after death, hence there will be no justice for anyone. Hence atheism believes in complete injustice. What a miserable, purposeless way to live life.

But then, after all of that, I would repent to Allah and became religious. I found myself always going back and forth. In the past, I used to cry in my sujood, I used to cry when reading the Koran, I used to be very careful with my thinking bcos I feared Allah so much. I loved Ramadhan very much, that's the only time I truly felt connected to Allah by doing extra prayers, learning stuff & taking care of my inner self. Normally people would usually dread bcos of the fasting, but really I loved Ramadhan, it truly made me a better person, but just like every other religion will make people become a better person. My family weren't very religious, so I searched God most by myself. But until I opened myself to the outer world, I started becoming friends with some non muslims, reading forums and articles etc. I changed my views on life, I became very liberal in my thinking, and this wasn't a good thing. I debated with my muslim friends and I just couldn't convince them anything bcos of how conservative they are. I heard religious teachers said on TV that Islam favors blind faith over logical thinking so Muslims shouldn't first and foremost use logic when dealing with religion. I couldn't believe what I just heard. If this is what humans should be, then I don't think the world could have advanced to what it is now.

You have pinpointed the root of your own problems in allowing yourself to become "corrupted" by so called liberal thinking and opening your heart and soul to non Muslim anti religion, atheist viewpoints. However there is still hope because there is still something left in your heart that makes you yearn back towards Allah. This is what you have to work with.

Mankind has only advanced to what it has achieved today by the will of Allah. He created our minds to think, create and progress. However Mankind must not think it is "greater" than the created as we can still not create even a fly. Cloning is not "creating", it is replicating. We are so reliant on Allah for everything we have today. From fossil fuels, to food, water, clean air, mountains, stability of the seas not overcoming the land, I can go on and on. On top of that if a earth quake, tsunami, volcano erupts or a tornado strikes then no matter what technology we have then we are powerless to stop and prevent the damage they will cause. Therefore we must contemplate and ponder as to how reliant and vulnerable we are and humble ourselves and never become arrogant and think we have progressed technologically on our own.

With regards to logic and blind faith then Islam does encourage logical reason but within the boundaries defined by the Shari'ah. This is why Allah has given us a brain, to think and be critical. To learn and to clarify. But surely we must realise that the intellect of man is very limited and as such, we will not always be able to comprehend the wisdom of divine law. Science - if that is your current religion - has not even begun to explain the origins of life, the universe, where we came from, our own miraculous human bodies, the Earth itself and much much more, and you talk about us being able to fully understand divine knowledge? Where is the logic in that?

There are some controversial verses of Quran and Hadiths that I just couldn't make sense of, especially the part about the prophet's wife Aisha. I've had non muslims asking me about this, no matter how hard I tried to make sense, I know deep in my heart I was just convincing myself, not them. Aisha might be a smart, mature girl for her age, but sorry this is not excuse for pedophilia. Would you marry off your girl to a 50+ old man , just to be fair, assuming the man is not just plain old man, but handsome , looking younger than his actual age, very kind in heart and very religious, even with the girl's consent? Apologists will say this was acceptable at that time, but I thought Islam is supposed to be timeless as I was taught in school. If he is the perfect role model then I think all muslims should aspire to do the same thing as well. Child marriages is still an actual thing happening now and it strips off lives of young girls. Some of these girls suffer complications at childbirth like anal fistula because they are too young to give birth. Some cases girls die of internal bleeding because their sexual organs are not compatible. I understand that the girl needed to be checked whether they're ready to withstand penetration, I say this can be misjudged and girls are not born just to be penetrated.

These are typical anti Islamic, orientalist arguments against Islam. Firstly there is no doubt that after puberty females are physically ready to have relations and bare children. This cannot be disputed from any stand point. The age at which girls go through puberty varies depending on region and other factors. However what we do certainly know is that regardless of the age, the marriage was consummated after puberty, when Aisha (Ra) was physically ready. Secondly the age of Aisha (Ra) when she married the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) was not even an issue that was used to attack him until recent times. This is because it was not just the "norm" in the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) era and society but it was the practice in many other era's and societies throughout history. On top of that it was Aisha (Ra) Father who approached the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Waallam) to marry his daughter which shows it was customary during the time.

During the times of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam), he had the most staunchest of enemies who used everything they possibly could in order to attack him. However neither they or anyone else in that era ever attacked him for the age he married Aisha (Ra). This is because again it was not something "strange" but the social norm of the time. Let me give you a couple of examples. In today's society, women are almost on par with men in terms of working, driving, going out and living independent lives etc. However in those days, women hardly went out of the house as they took care of children and household matters. Another example is in today's society homosexuality and transgender-ism is accepted almost as the "norm", however in those days such people were outcast and even killed as such practices were viewed as an abomination.

So to even begin to compare the way our societies are today with the societies of 1400 years ago is totally absurd. On top of that you have young girls in today's society giving birth at aged 11. Sexual practices among young teenagers are rampant in today's society and getting much worse. The Prophet (Sallallahu ALaihi Wasallam) emphasised marriage in the right manner and forbade any relations outside of marriage. Islam is the only way of life that is strict upon this to the point where it even segregates the sexes in order to even avoid even the slightest possibility of illegitimate relations. Relations outside of marriage lead to all sorts of crimes against humanity. Due to the world being corrupted by atheist secularism, many of the societies of today are strife with rape, fornication, adultery, pedophilia, promiscuity, rapidly increasing sexually transmitted diseases. These and all other evils are the very things that our Deen came to protect us and our societies from.

I became agnostic several months ago, I stopped praying 5 times. No, no satan is whispering on me. How can I blame the satan for my own actions? Tbh it left a void in me but this is just because I lost something I used to usually keep in my heart. I was like a meat lover who just became vegan. But after some while I felt normal like every other person but sad that I have to pretend to my family all of my life. I'm not really happy not believing in God, I want to believe spiritually, I want to be in heaven with all my loved ones, but with these flaws in religion I just couldn't. If there are anybody here who used to be atheists/agnostic, can you share how did you even make sense of this? I don't want to continuously pretend to everyone. Soo sorry for the length and Tq

Your misconceptions are flaws in your own thinking and unfortunately all of this is your own doing. You have put the very foundations of your faith in accordance with modern day scientific theories, anti Islamic, atheist websites and arguments and mainstream media. It is most unfortunate that you have allowed your heart and soul to be corrupted in such a way and I can feel that your heart and soul is crying out for help. For it yearns for Allah again. From many of your views in this thread, it is unfortunate that you have been completely sold by Atheist thinking and arguments. This is because you have spent far too much time and energy looking into anti Islamic and atheist perspectives and modern day scientific theories and trying to reconcile them with your Deen.

So for the sake of rebuilding your Imaan, completely stop referring to anti Islamic and Atheist debates and arguments and mainstream news media. These Atheists and anti-Islamists will always try to come up with all sorts of reasons not to believe in religion and God and this is because they also want everyone else not to believe like they don't. They are a part of an anti religion, anti-Islamic agenda. They like you are not happy within themselves. They are empty and bitter people. Hence why you will see them get aggressive and dismissive very quickly. Their arguments are only convincing to those who already have deficiencies in their heart.

So you must not befriend non Muslims except to interact with them to what is necessary. You must also stop continuing to corrupt your heart, mind and soul with their baseless arguments and theories that are ever changing. I have heard plenty of speeches, arguments and debates from atheists like Dawkins and they are constantly changing their views, saying one thing but when quoted they said something different they lie and contradict themselves. Whereas Islam is how it was over 1400 years ago. Our scriptures have never changed but Islam is completely dynamic and is and always will be for all times. If it had changed as other religions have and as science changes constantly, then it would not be as it is today the most practiced religion on Earth with the most convinced and firm believers of any other faith or belief in this entire Earth. Just because certain atheist scientists are given a platform it does not mean they represent "all scientists" as many scientists believe in God or an intelligent designer. Even Darwin never "dismissed" the idea of God but he was torn between belief and disbelief.

So you know what you have to do. Now is the time to rebuild your Imaan. If we keep putting oil in water then it will make the water undrinkable. Similarly if we keep corrupting our hearts and souls with lies, contradictions and filth then it will be devoid of Imaan. So let us feed our hearts, souls and minds with goodness and you will see eventually that your Imaan will become stronger again. In the latter part of the night when it is quite and you are alone with you and God then raise up your hands unto him like you used to. Ask of him and beg and cry unto him. Know that he never turns away the one who calls upon him. Ask of him sincerely for help and guidance. Walk towards him so he can run towards you. But do not delay in doing so because we know not at which moment death can overcome us and it is shaythans wish that we die as disbelievers so we are never able to enter Paradise.

May Allah guide you and all those who have deficiencies and doubts in their hearts. Ameen

I found the following articles very interesting:

12 Famous Scientists On The Possibility Of God

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b057d7d7c7a1e5

Scientists Prove Again that Life is the Result of Intelligent Design

https://www.algemeiner.com/2011/08/1...ligent-design/

Most Scientists Believe in God

https://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/...Believe-in-God

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Kazu;

Disagreeing with me is not possible anymore because you can't doubt Allah once you submitted to him.

The creation of the universe is history. Allah the creator of all that is seen and unseen either exists fully and totally, or there is no god. There cannot be a maybe creator, it's yes or no.

No matter what you believe, you cannot change history.

If Allah exists fully and totally, then there is the need to search for him. All truth must lead towards compassion, kindness, patience, forgiveness and mercy and obeying God's commandments. Some of the biggest injustices in this world are against the poor, they are exploited in all ways, yet it says....

Once, when his companions asked him: "O Messenger of Allah, what are the most excellent of actions?"

The beloved of Allah, Sallallahu alaihi Wasallam, replied:--

"To gladden the heart of human beings,
To feed the hungry,
To help the afflicted,
To lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and
To remove the sufferings of the injured." [Sahih Bukhari].

So, over to us all... let's put this into practice in everyday life.

In the spirit of searching for Allah

Eric

[Simple_Person]

Since I can't send a private message anymore, let me just write here responding to your previous pm to me


Hi.. I'm still here, more agnostic than ever, although a little bit more inclined to deism rather than atheism, and more away from Islam ever since. I'm calmer now, since you told me to stay away from the social media for a couple months, at least mainstream medias. I'm sorry I didn't get the part you said I should mark your words that I will one day realize what you meant. Don't you think what you are saying is just, stereotyping?

That one moment when you bow down to your god and feel the calmness, and all of a sudden things just suddenly fits properly into the islamic expectation you had, then maybe after a couple while learning to adjust yourself with that belief system, eventually you accepted you have became a muslim again. This is cognitive bias.

You do realize people find solace in whatever they believe is comforting, prayers, in just ANY religion at all. People die believing in the religion they submit to because they found so much comfort in it, and more importantly the community that intensely support the belief system and the welfare of its people.

Just because I find comfort in praying and the idea someone always has my back, does that make him immediately real? On what basis you would think God is real at that moment if it weren't for confirmation bias? Maybe you have this pre-existing idea in the back of your head, you still wanted to believe god is real because all these bad things you have done made you feel guilty and trying to find reasons for this restlessness. (because you haven't done it before and its a culture shock! and realizing people who converted away from islam are more likely to have these type of behaviour, why don't you think this is because they were previously strictly restrained from it? People always want what they can't have. Moreover, a typical nowadays westerner teenager/young adult do actively engage in these behaviour.)

Now there's nobody you can turn to, except one whom you've been told will ALWAYS have your back, who is allah. and you confirmed it, in bias. Once you start believing in God Allah, you are obligated to follow all of his teachings, thus strengthening your faith even more.

Disagreeing with me is not possible anymore because you can't doubt Allah once you submitted to him. A muslim must always think of Allah with well intention and thoughts even if things seem to be going in the opposite direction than what was well intended, because you can't comprehend him, maybe what he was doing is for the greater good. You will find any reasons at all from islamic point of view to validate your stance, as I will validate my stance, although I believe I'm being on the more neutral side here. This MAYBE was your action.

Now my point is, this general idea of 'feeling' 'founding solace and comfort' 'just feeeelingg and bowing down' or telling me that I 'WILL realize' one day ; is not a very good tactic at all as just any one coming from another religion can tell you the same thing, and reverted back to their previous religion. Take david wood as an example and that 'converted2islam' guy who had converted back to christianity.

The other day once again i was thinking about the time i was an atheist and now being a Muslim. You know what i realized...i said people are DOOMED. Why did i say that to myself? Because having experienced BOTH worlds, i was blind. It is hard to explain in exact words, but it is like having a wall between you and the other side. You have absolutely NO idea what is going on. Not even one bit. This is not the "feeling" that i am talking about. Me and a lot of other people here can tell you or give you as much knowledge as possible, but you will NOT UNDERSTAND it. This is what i am talking about and it has NOTHING to do with feeling or some "emotional"-nonsense like you hear from other faiths. This not being guided, it is like being blind, but not even having the SLIGHTEST idea of being blind. You have a absolutely NO clue that you are blind and nothing..i repeat NOTHING will made you realize that you really are blind. That is the ultimate scary thing about it. Again these are words, many reverts will understand these words of mine to the core, while born-Muslims and people of other faiths will not. Again it has absolutely NOTHING to do with "feeling". The words in the Qur'an of what Allah says about when He sets one astray nobody can guide. It also is not that typical thing of Christians of "oooh i have seen the light..Jesus is my lord and savior"-thing. When this guidance happens the eyes that did not see before will suddenly see things it did not see before. The mind will process things in such a pace that you KNOW this is NOT normal for the average human being. The heart becomes calm while situations people would fall in panic. I know you will not believe me what i am saying, but it is like suddenly opening the door to head towards your potential. The amount of sleep is suddenly rubbish when your imaan is high. You can go through a whole day with 3-4 hours of sleep. This has nothing to do with having some drugs or something. Your potential as a human being is suddenly opened up. The times for you to be "rightfully" angry about something that everybody gets angry, you see it as child-play.

As i believe in my previous comment(s) have said that i love to analyze things this includes my own behavior and what is going on. For example even trying to notice when breaking my fast what is happening to my body. Or even drinking water according to how Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was drinking water.

This bowing down to your Lord, has nothing to do with "feeling" even. Have you ever done everything within your power to achieve something, but you just failed or realized and you say with your mouth and heart "i give up"? I do not care anymore..you realize you are not in control and you let all the strings go you try to control. With that also arrogance, pride, envy.."I DO NOT CARE ANYMORE!!"-mentality. I am not saying go live like a those Gothics-guys, but your whole act of to pretend yourself as a certain person. Your make-up, your designer clothing, attitude, etc.. just free-fall. This by society words is called "depression", however it is not "depression" rather the mechanism that is trying to revive your heart. When you realize this "depression" people will seek what is going on, because what they were doing before (fitting in society) resulted in to this depression. So people go and seek answers to questions they have postponed it. You no longer are interested in pleasing people because it brings you only depression. From society perspective you have hit rock-bottom from being up-high, while from Islam perspective you have gone up from the negative. The moment you go back to society-norms, you again from Islamic perspective will go below this neutral point, but will once again gonna feel the depression...until you embrace Islam or die in that state.

In this chart to just take the example of it. We look at it from left to right. Below the 0 is negative for society, while above 0 is positive for society. Well take this chart and flip it vertically then horizontally. Read the chart now from right to left (arabic) below indeed negative and above 0 positive (see the url)

https://app.box.com/s/w5s5lemzl4sbu07sxcqray53baw6agdm

The "loser" from current society-perspective, is rather a winner from Islamic point of view. The loser from Islamic point of view is rather a winner in society-perspective. However people do not realize this, because they ONLY see society-perspective.

The hardest thing i have come to realize for human beings to ignore what other people think of them. They take the opinion of others so highly. You not following fashion like the mass, is being a loser, while you do not care about fashion, you not going night-out (not living ;) ), you not drinking alcohol and having a girl-friend/boy-friend (being a loser). When you have stopped all those society-nonsense you suddenly also see what is wrong with society. With that also going in the negative according to society, while from Islamic point of view heading towards the truth. That is why i said abstain from the nonsense society is presenting you.

That is why i also see individualism rather as a blessing. This individualism shows you are own your own, nobody is FORCING you to join them in their idiotic actions that we see in the Middle-East. If you are with those guys they FORCE you to join them in their haram activities, because people need one another. While living in the west, i do not need anybody. The ONLY moment i need somebody is maybe when moving to another place..but even that is not needed as you can pay a company to help you with. You are at your own home, doing your own stuff. Having a Islamic way of life nobody bothering you with rubbish.

[Kazu]

Something about faith is, you either have it or you don't. Those who don't have it won't believe no matter how much they want to; and those who have it cannot disbelieve no matter how difficult it is for them to comprehend the difficulties or confusions they go through. [...]Allah sends astray [thereby] whom He wills and guides whom He wills[...] (14:4)

The faith part, true. The Quran quote part, I don't believe in something I don't subscribe to in the first place.

This is contradictory considering you considered yourself a Muslim at one time, and considering that there are people who do stray from the religion.

With all due respect, people who stray from the religion, they don't fully submitted themselves to Allah at the moment, don't they. Basing on my experience, I didn't 'disagree' with Allah when I was doing sins but rather I decided not to 'think about anything' when I was doing it to eliminate the guilt in my chest, and just having fun doing sins without thinking clearly. I meant, you are not supposed to doubt Allah, because using your own intellect is less favorable when it comes to islamic rulings, the intellect of human is only used to confirm the islamic teachings, for making fatwas, other things/practices unstated in islamic sources, and what not.

However, to say that people believe in God or religion simply because it is "comforting" is not true. As you know, people can live very comfortable lives without religion.

Rather, what I meant about "comforting" was the idea of living eternally in heaven after death, for the righteous at least. I completely do find the appeal. I very much want heaven to exist. However how much life is throwing so much difficulty, suffering and pain to me, the 'comfort' I meant in the religion is that this is all temporary and is just tests after tests to test my imaan. If I successfully went through it then the next life will be eternally all garden and pleasures, a world without pain. Who wouldn't find comfort in this? To know that my memories will be forever preserved, to live eternally with my loved ones, yes, who wouldn't?

All of us be it believer or unbeliever go through a lot of hardships but we also do have a very comfortable stable life, at least most of us do. In islam, like you said, everything is a test. A secure life is a test, wealth is a test, good grades is a test, good children is a test, everything is. It's not fair to say only the bad things are the tests. And for us non-believers, things are just the way it is , we just work to achieve our goals while minimizing conflicts as much as possible and that's it. There are so many ways to look at this. And also the comfort in this for those who doesn't believe he is 'good enough of a muslim', faith alone is sufficient as Allah said grab anyone from the hell whom has part of an atom weight of iman. Surely even you are unsure if you're going to hell or heaven, but finds solace that you've tried your best and leaving it to Allah.

if you have faith, you will have it despite anything and everything you go through because you have an untouchable faith, not because of how you "feel" or what you were equipped with in life. In fact, if anything, people LEAVE their religion because they are seeking comfort

Couldn't agree more with the faith part. This is what I admire about religious people is that they have this 'faith', correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's more about having 'taqwa' . A friend of mine once explained this to me about taqwa. If a path full of sharp-pointed broken glasses is in front of you and you need to get to the other side, what will you do? You will go through that path very carefully and slowly trying to avoid scarring yourself at all even if it takes you so much time and effort. Now imagine having faith and taqwa while in the hindu religion, mann you COULD NOT convince them anything. Often times I would talk to some hindu acquaintances and they go "I have my strong hindu faith and you have yours, you could not convince me anything, for me my religion, for you your religion (while quoting quran), pls stay away from our affairs and in turn we will respect islam".

Some people do leave religion just because they don't want to believe in god, some people do leave because they found comfort outside of islam.. Lets be real here, the true comfort is knowing you HAVE A CHANCE to get into the paradise however much of a bad person you are as long as you have faith. You are right, I do find comfort leaving Islam because all of a sudden the baggage attached to me suddenly falls off and it felt good. But as a human being I can confirm that the ultimate comfort/satisfaction is living in a world without pain but only eternal pleasures and happiness. But I ask myself, does that make heaven immediately real? No, but then we have to look at other aspects.

Because let's be honest here, it's much easier to say "this religion can't be true because it doesn't correlate with who I am/what my family believes/how I was born/my society/etc." than to say "this religion is true despite of who I am."

Also, you're right that as Muslims we'll be biased towards the faith and path we have chosen for ourselves. However, please do give thought to examining your own biases on what you think religion is/should be and why and what you believe what you do at the moment; because trust that self-reflection and introspection will specifically better move you towards the direction of truth if you're searching for truth and improve the condition of your heart than generally extrospection.

Right now, I don't know if god, heaven, or hell, exist or don't exist. I'm open to all sorts of possibilities. I would say, 'the truth is right here, right now, in front of me despite what all religions says but is invisible'. So I wouldn't know. "The truth is true despite what religions say" but muslims already equate islam with the 'truth' so I won't have a proper argument in a muslim forum where the principle here is "this islamic religion is true despite of who I am", because what if the same principle is applied in other religion? It will be biased.

I'm not saying because of this Islam will be inherently wrong, but rather solely for the sake of avoiding bias. And okay I'll be honest, it's much easier to say that, but in my case, I don't find this islamic religion to be true because I personally think some of its teachings are unfair and wrong to the very nature of humanity itself,and a just God wouldn't do something like that, just like you would find hinduism is wrong thus saying their god doesn't exist. I'm not saying ALL of its teachings are wrong, many of it are good and true but if something wrong exists in it, this belief couldn't be true. It's plain and simple logic, I couldn't get any more neutral than this.

I'd like to think this is all the 'basic' before anyone is considering to get deeper into a particular religion, or just discussing any matter relating to that religion at all. I appreciate all the replies, people here gave me the ideas and insights on the many possibilities of ways to look at this mainly from the islamic perspective but I think the only way I can accept them is ultimately going back to this religion, then only I can subscribe to its views.

Therefore, I do not think you should take them as examples of what you can or cannot think about religion.

I'm sorry , I shouldn't have take them as examples. Indeed we are unique as individuals as our journey are different and very little I know about them.

Moreover, I think you should pray as sincerely as you can the typical atheist/agnostic prayer, which goes something like, "O God, if there is a god, if you're there, guide me to your Guidance." Of course, you can change the prayer to suit your spiritual needs or feelings of whatever at the moment, but I think this prayer is a good prayer to pray for whoever is a doubter because it is leaving the responsibility of being given the guidance to the Guide.

Thank you for this suggestion. Believe it or not, I've been doing this for the past couple months. I don't actively disbelief in god so if there is a god, why not pray in general, maybe my prayer could be answered if he does exist.

Greetings Kazu,

It seems that at an early age rather than learn correct knowledge of Islam in order to solidify your imaan and clarify your misconceptions, you referred instead to atheist and anti-Islamic perspectives, sources, websites and mainstream media.

Greetings, I'm sorry I don't believe I'm doing that. Rather, at such an early age I only learn knowledge about Islam until I'm a bit older and started to come across the opposite types of medias, I realized I've been very biased all along the same way these medias are biased. So I believe I started to adopt the more neutral side to it.

With regards to why you think God allows "evil" things to happen then firstly everything only happens by the will. God allows people to live the way they want to live and make the choices they want to make in life. Whether that is evil or good. Is that not what freewill is? On top of that we in our limited capacity, do not understand why things happen just as science can try to explain how some things happen but never why. Similarly we do not understand the wisdom of God in why certain things happen but know that we are responsible for our actions and whatever hardships and trials we go through in this short and temporary life then it is nothing compared to the ever lasting joy and bliss of Paradise. If you compare then the evil inflicted upon people then this is nothing compared to the punishment they will recieve for their crimes.

My first post was longg way back, I asked why God allows evil to happen while giving the impression I believed in god (at least somewhere in my heart) while hating him for letting evil things happen so that's just pure bs. I didn't realized I was giving this impression when I asked the question so I should have gone with a better way of saying it.

However this is not what Atheists believe. To believe in life after death is to believe in justice for those who were wronged. It is only God who will ensure those who were wronged are given true and proper justice. Not an atom of injustice will there be in the court of Allah. Whereas this world is full of injustice and corrupt people who do not allow proper justice for those who are wronged.

So do you think that the many millions of people who have died whilst wronged on this Earth will get no justice after they died?

That is a very good explanation and I would definitely subscribe to that IF ONLY I subscribe to this religion in the first place. I wouldn't subscribe to this religion just by reading your explanation because it happens to be biased as well and apparently I don't have enough reason to believe it.

Essentially Atheists do not believe that there is any difference between the worst and best of mankind because they will both just "disappear" after death, hence there will be no justice for anyone. Hence atheism believes in complete injustice. What a miserable, purposeless way to live life.

When I was muslim I once thought that a god must exist because if he doesn't, then ultimate justice is impossible. Ultimate justice must prevail because if it doesn't, then the world will be so messed up and to a point it's impossible the world could even exist without ultimate justice. Now come to think of it, what if the world is meant to not have ultimate justice? What if the world is meant to be miserable and messed up? On what basis can I relate the existence of both ultimate justice and god thus confirm it? Because of one of the 99 names of Allah? Well, that is your version of god. God could very well be just, in this case, Allah, and could also be unjust, if he chose to. Allah could choose to just give everyone a very very clear evidence of his existence so only the ones refuses to accept will go to hell because he clearly rejects the absolute truth presented right in front of him, but now Allah chose not to because he is giving us this gift of free will and mind.

So to say that we believe in complete injustice, no, justice is what we make ourselves, we try to be just to as much people as possible. Common sense dictates we should treat others just like how we like to be treated. But in the context of what we want, in truth we want complete justice to prevail, and very much regret that this could not happen. Does wanting to believe in complete justice immediately makes it real? No

Though this is not a good argument as we have different definitions of what justice is.

It is most unfortunate that you have allowed your heart and soul to be corrupted in such a way and I can feel that your heart and soul is crying out for help. For it yearns for Allah again.

I'm sorry but what are you talking about?
I'm not an atheist.. everyone seems to stereotype me with a typical modern day atheist, anti-islamist.

These Atheists and anti-Islamists will always try to come up with all sorts of reasons not to believe in religion and God and this is because they also want everyone else not to believe like they don't.

So are you not always trying to come up with all sorts of reasons to believe in god and ignoring absolutely everything else? and telling me not to befriend non muslim except what is necessary? telling me what to do and what not to do? what if they do the same thing to you to strengthen their own faith, even though in your thinking they are the wrong ones.

ay Allah guide you and all those who have deficiencies and doubts in their hearts. Ameen

Ameen.

[Kazu]

Greetings,

The creation of the universe is history. Allah the creator of all that is seen and unseen either exists fully and totally, or there is no god. There cannot be a maybe creator, it's yes or no.

No matter what you believe, you cannot change history.

Exactly.

Rather, what I meant, was one is not supposed to doubt Allah if he is a true believer. As anyone will try to find any reasons at all to validate his stance, and confirmed what he believes, usually in bias.

So, over to us all... let's put this into practice in everyday life.


In the spirit of searching for Allah

Me too.

[Amor101]

Greetings people, Muslims and nons, no offense to the Muslims. I want to get this off my chest for a long time. I'm a closet ex-muslim, 22. Since childhood I had so many doubts about Islam, particularly about the existence of God himself. How can God let really evil things happen? if everything evil meant to happen because God wants to test us and given that the tests given aren't supposed to exceed our limit as humans, why do God let terrible things happen to children? There are cases some children were kidnapped from their houses, was gang-raped, and burnt to death. How was that a test? I may just be really ignorant for not making sense of this, kindly, please enlighten me.

I had the same doubts, but I read on Gawaher forum a refutation to this.

Let me see if I remember it.

“And it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.” (AI-Baqarah, 2:216)


Let's see you go to a dentist, it is painful but it is good for you.
Pain erases our sins,
it makes us stronger as a person,
it teaches us to be kinder to other peoplle because we know what it is like to be hurt ourselves

We do not know what is evil and what is right and wrong. Allah does.

I became very liberal in my thinking

You talk about Islam and logic but you are not even educated enough about Islam. You shouldn't judge or try to convince anything to anyone. You should know that you are inferior to lots of world.

Islam doesn't contradict science and we must believe in anything which is true, as if it was from Allah.

Would you marry off your girl to a 50+ old man

Prophet Muhammad married 13 wives, just one of which was a virgin. The rest of which were widowed. He brought them into his home and made them a mothers of the believers. Aisha loved the Prophet. He raised her to be the most knowledgeable women of her time. Does this sound as a pervert? He did not marry them due to sexual wantonness, or it would have been definitely older girl.
The reason men could marry more than one wife was because at the time of so many wars there was more women than men in population. At that period of time there were no jobs available that we have now. Only men could do those jobs. Therefore, these widows, with up to 6 children needed somebody to take care of them.

He was a 50 years old prophet. Clean and handsome. I met a thousand 50 year old men that look just fine.

When you learn how to drive on huge highways, grammar, go on airports, your deen and many things which you are inferior to...

[Kazu]

The other day once again i was thinking about the time i was an atheist and now being a Muslim. You know what i realized...i said people are DOOMED. Why did i say that to myself? Because having experienced BOTH worlds, i was blind. It is hard to explain in exact words, but it is like having a wall between you and the other side. You have absolutely NO idea what is going on. Not even one bit. This is not the "feeling" that i am talking about. Me and a lot of other people here can tell you or give you as much knowledge as possible, but you will NOT UNDERSTAND it. This is what i am talking about and it has NOTHING to do with feeling or some "emotional"-nonsense like you hear from other faiths. This not being guided, it is like being blind, but not even having the SLIGHTEST idea of being blind. You have a absolutely NO clue that you are blind and nothing..i repeat NOTHING will made you realize that you really are blind. That is the ultimate scary thing about it. Again these are words, many reverts will understand these words of mine to the core, while born-Muslims and people of other faiths will not. Again it has absolutely NOTHING to do with "feeling". The words in the Qur'an of what Allah says about when He sets one astray nobody can guide. It also is not that typical thing of Christians of "oooh i have seen the light..Jesus is my lord and savior"-thing. When this guidance happens the eyes that did not see before will suddenly see things it did not see before. The mind will process things in such a pace that you KNOW this is NOT normal for the average human being. The heart becomes calm while situations people would fall in panic. I know you will not believe me what i am saying, but it is like suddenly opening the door to head towards your potential. The amount of sleep is suddenly rubbish when your imaan is high. You can go through a whole day with 3-4 hours of sleep. This has nothing to do with having some drugs or something. Your potential as a human being is suddenly opened up. The times for you to be "rightfully" angry about something that everybody gets angry, you see it as child-play.

I'm happy for you that you had this sort of higher spiritual level experience. I will not say you're just spouting bs or you are so wrong and deluded. I'm asking you this. Is this fair?Is this fair for you to say this while claiming I will not understand this at all not even one bit? What are you trying to get out of saying this to me? So that I will like "ohh I will never comprehend this experience and he's sounding like he knows everything about the truth and I should believe him"? Do you know how many times someone of other faith, christian, hindu, buddhist have said the same thing to me about theirs? You're talking like you know absolutely everything about me and what I've been through, stereotyping me with a typical atheist like you were. What's the point if your god can't give me this experience? Does he do not want me to believe like you do? You're describing something you're claiming I couldn't get at. I'm already praying in general to any god out there in case he exists, that he would somehow giving me this sort of experience. Allah sets astray then nobody can guide. What kind of god is this?

This bowing down to your Lord, has nothing to do with "feeling" even. Have you ever done everything within your power to achieve something, but you just failed or realized and you say with your mouth and heart "i give up"? I do not care anymore..you realize you are not in control and you let all the strings go you try to control. With that also arrogance, pride, envy.."I DO NOT CARE ANYMORE!!"-mentality. I am not saying go live like a those Gothics-guys, but your whole act of to pretend yourself as a certain person. Your make-up, your designer clothing, attitude, etc.. just free-fall. This by society words is called "depression", however it is not "depression" rather the mechanism that is trying to revive your heart. When you realize this "depression" people will seek what is going on, because what they were doing before (fitting in society) resulted in to this depression. So people go and seek answers to questions they have postponed it. You no longer are interested in pleasing people because it brings you only depression. From society perspective you have hit rock-bottom from being up-high, while from Islam perspective you have gone up from the negative. The moment you go back to society-norms, you again from Islamic perspective will go below this neutral point, but will once again gonna feel the depression...until you embrace Islam or die in that state.

What a great observation. Seems like we do a lot of observations on human behavior in our younger years. From young I knew I was different, I am socially and mentally impaired. I was isolated and people around me would freak like hell if I talk to them. 'oh she can actually speak!' . I would just cry and cry and would always sit at the back, observing people. Never fitting with society. One time my teacher called up my mother and says 'I think your child is possessed by jins, better go check up' because I liked to gaze into the clouds and mindlessly ignoring the class. I don't like to think me being mentally impaired affects my intelligence but this gives me a lot of capacity to process things, me being isolated from other people. So my point here, I have done my observation. In islam it says 'what you like is not always good for you, and what you don't like might be best for you' this what motivates me as I was tryingg sooo hard to fit in society while doing some haram things and stumbles so many times..at times I just doesn't care anymore. I just wanted to be 'normal'. But I believed I may be a loser to society but favored in Allah's eyes, so I started to feel MUCH better about myself. It's like a weight suddenly been lifted off. After that I do everything I wanted to do as long as its not haram, even if it seems weird to some people 'why are you doing this'? for no reason at all. I do what I want because at the end of the day, who truly cares?

Now come to think of it, even if I'm again on the opposite side of the spectrum,noting I'm not doing it because of people, but I genuinely want to be who I am while having common sense (dont harm yourself, dont hurt others, do good etc etc) because at the end of the day, who truly cares? I personally believe this is the point of balance. When you fit islam in the equation on everything, of course you're gonna get biased. It's not wrong but are you not realizing you could look at it from so many ways. I'm not rejecting the validity of your opinion in this case from islamic point of view, but I realized, there's other ways to it. I never did fit well with society as I find so many things wrong with them. I understand most people is at some point struggling like I did, but perhaps with different things. I don't want to act like "look at me I'm smarter than you, I know a lot about human behavior, wish you could just realize you done so many stupid things contributing to society retardation it's making the world a living hell for us all" no, telling them they are retarded won't help it but if you could, try giving them some emotional support, the rest is up to them. Ever seeing someone acts like douchebag but inside they're lonely and lost.

After all, mine and yours society is different. Living in the east, I could say, everybody knows everybody..everybody cares about everybody (when it comes to religion practices) I could totally be apathetic to Islam if I want to, but because I have this kind of society, I'm living in prison now. So is this comforting at all? But thinking of my family, I just couldn't leave or hurt them, after all my parents are old and sick and a brother who keeps stealing knifes from the kitchen. I'll pretend to be anything they want me to be, even if this means sacrificing my freedom and marriage life. This world is temporary. I acknowledged my limit as a human and intend to make the most out of it.

Now this problem with religion is that it decides for you your purpose, what you should be, what you should not, what you find your worth in. This is true especially for women. Islam doesn't do a good job in empowering women. Sure some speaks good thing about them, but a lot of the sources are not in their favor. Prophet says the best adornment/joy in this world are the righteous women. Why would I wanna be the best adornment/joy?

"And remain in your homes." [Al-Azhaab:33]"

A muslim woman is best to remain in her home unless for necessity such as having outside of home careers only if the society requires them, and its important to observe proper hijab when going out. Islam doesn't restrict women to work outside but isn't it better to remain inside? When I was young I STRUGGLED to find my identity as a girl in islam, I wanted to please Allah, I wanted to live his ways to the fullest. My friends aren't very religious and they're all highly ambitious people. But in secret, I was seriously considering to marry at early age after school, wear niqab, be a stay at home mom while abandoning my ambition to be a renowned scientist, because according to islam this is the best profession a muslim woman can have. I'm not saying be a stay at home mom is bad but it's preferable not to opt out.

Several months ago I posted a thread titled 'help me understand men/women logic in islam'. No one, absolutely no one counter my arguments with relevant points but gave me the context of the translation (which doesn't make sense) that prophet said women are less intelligent than men, while in fact it is backed up by science that women are actually less intelligent than men because women in general are more likely to have mean IQ level while men varies a lot more. Why islam tries so desperately to sugarcoat this? Why there is more women in hell than men? Is this not because they are less intelligent? One even says ' I assure you Allah didn't create women with greater defects' again bias, I don't want to believe in something I don't subscribe to in the first place let alone be assured. Though you confirmed that women are less intelligent, but didn't really answered my question. I think most women in islam accepted this because they believe they are naturally submissive and in line with my point that islam doesn't do a good job in empowering women thus why I think a just god wouldn't do this.

Since I'm not a muslim anymore and don't have to depend on a husband, I wanted to pursue the career as a scientist but as a woman with average intelligence, I could use the intellect of a man more than he himself wants to. The one way I could make the most out of my temporary life is making a real change in this world the way I wanted to, not by what religion defines for me. Eventually I understand, countering me means disagreeing with Allah, which you can't do. I feel like arguing in an islamic forum is not gonna get me anywhere as you can't speak something beyond your limit as a muslim, I'm so sorry... This has been a long rant

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You talk about Islam and logic but you are not even educated enough about Islam. You shouldn't judge or try to convince anything to anyone. You should know that you are inferior to lots of world.

You're right. I'm so sorry

[Amor101]

A muslim woman is best to remain in her home unless for necessity

"
There are voluntary acts and there are obligations. In Sharee'ah we have haram, makrooh, mubah, mustahhab, and wajib/fardh.

Haram = forbidden: If you do it you have a sin, and if you don't do it you have a good deed.

Makrooh = disliked: If you do it it is not a sin, but it is not accepted for reward, but if you refrain from it then you receive a reward.

Mubah = neutral: There is no reward or punishment.

Mustahhab = You do it you receive reward, and if you don't do it you are not sinning.

Wajib/Fardh = You sin if you don't do it, but you receive reward if you do it."
-Kai

Women can go out 85 KM without a mahram(2 hour drive by car). It is only disliked if she goes out.

Again, we do not know what is right and what is wrong. Allah does."people are a product of their environment. "

And on women being less intelligent. Please read and learn something
QuestionWe always hear the Hadith: Women are lacking in their capacity to reason and in deen i.e. religion. Some people even use it to offend women. Could you kindly explain the meaning of this Hadith?Answer by shaykh ibn baz rahimahullah:The Hadith reads: “I have not seen anyone more deficient in ability to reason and deen than you. A cautious sensible man can be led astray by some of you.” It was said: “O Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him)! What is the deficiency in our reasoning and deen?” He said: “Is not the testimony of two women equal to the witness of one man?” It was said: “What is deficient in her deen?” The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Is not it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?”The Prophet (peace be upon him) explained that the deficiency in woman’s reasoning means their weak memory. Therefore, their testimony must be verified and supported by another woman to confirm their testimony, because they may forget and thus add or omit some of the testimony. Allah (He may be Praised) states:Surah Al-Baqarah, 2: 282 And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her.As for the deficiency of their deen, it means they abandon Salah and Sawm (fasting) during their menses and post-partum period. They are not commanded to repeat Salah (prayer). This is the meaning of their being lacking in deen. They will not be called to account for this shortcoming, because it is the will of Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) Who legislated this for their comfort. If they were to observe Sawm during their menses and post-partum period, it would be difficult for them. Therefore, Allah commands them to abandon Sawm during their menses and post-partum period, and make up for it later. As for Salah, there is something which prevents them from ceremonial purity. Therefore, it is out of the Mercy of Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He) that He commands them to abandon Salah during their menses and post-partum period. However, they are commanded not to compensate for Salah because there is great hardship in this, as Salah is repeated five times a day and night, and menses may last for many days; seven, eight or more and post-partum may last for forty days. So, it was of Allah’s Mercy and Benevolence not to hold them accountable for Salah or oblige them to make up for it.This does not mean that the lack of their deficiency to reason and deen extends to every aspect of life. The Prophet (peace be upon him) explained that the lack of their ability to reason is because of their weak memory when giving testimony, and the shortcoming in their worship is because they abandon Salah and Sawm during their menses and post-partum period. This does not mean that they are lower in rank than men in all things, or men are better than them in everything.Generally speaking, males excel females for many reasons. Allah states:Surah Al-Nisa’, 4: 34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allâh has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means.However, some women may excel men. There are many women whose reason is better than men, and are stronger in deen and memorization. The report of the Prophet (peace be upon him) only indicates that the male gender is generally better in reasoning and deen than the female gender in the two aspects specified by the Prophet (peace be upon him).Women may perform more righteous deeds than men, their piety may be more than men, and thus their rank in the Hereafter may be better than the rank of men. They may focus on some matters and memorize them better than men. They exert effort in memorization and focus, so they established a reference in Islamic history as well as other things which are clear to those who consider the conditions of women during the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and later. It is now evident that this deficiency does not mean that we cannot rely on her in narration or testimony, if she is supported by another woman. Anyway, this report does not prevent her from being of the best servants of Allah if they perform righteous deeds; although Sawm is overlooked during their menses and post-partum, and even if they are exempt from performing Salah. This does not mean that they are lower in everything. Men and women are equally required to observe the standards of piety, good actions, and careful performance of things in their charge. This specific lack of reason and deen is limited to what the Prophet (peace be upon him) explained. So, a Muslim must not offend women by attributing deficiency to them in everything, but it is a flaw in their worship and weakness in reasoning with regard to accuracy of testimony. Thus, the Hadith of the Prophet (peace be upon him) should be properly understood. Allah knows the best.Source: http://alifta.com/

[Kazu]

"
There are voluntary acts and there are obligations. In Sharee'ah we have haram, makrooh, mubah, mustahhab, and wajib/fardh.

Haram = forbidden: If you do it you have a sin, and if you don't do it you have a good deed.

Makrooh = disliked: If you do it it is not a sin, but it is not accepted for reward, but if you refrain from it then you receive a reward.

Mubah = neutral: There is no reward or punishment.

Mustahhab = You do it you receive reward, and if you don't do it you are not sinning.

Wajib/Fardh = You sin if you don't do it, but you receive reward if you do it."
-Kai

Women can go out 85 KM without a mahram(2 hour drive by car). It is only disliked if she goes out.

Again, we do not know what is right and what is wrong. Allah does."people are a product of their environment. "

And..? I don't think you disagree with my sentence. and I don't disagree with you either

[Amor101]

Please read:

In Islam, men and women are equal before Allah. Meaning that one gender is no superior to the other when it comes to faith and piety. However, men and women are vastly different physically and psychologically. Anyone who opens a biology or psychology textbook will realize this at once. So this much does not need to be explained.

Because God gave them different physical and mental attributes, he has designated to them specific roles in their households and communities. I'll mention them in response to your concerns.

-That women must obey their guardians/husbands, no matter what they do to them.

And a husband must provide for his wife and family no matter what. He is the one with the obligation of providing food, clothing, shelter and anything necessary for a comfortable living. He cannot deny his wife access to his wealth. On the other hand, any income she gains, be it through inheritance or otherwise, is hers to do with as she pleases.

Let me ask you something. Why do you think that a mother has three times as many rights over her children than the father does? Is it random selection? No. Women have an obligation on them to care for their children. And with that obligation comes greater rights than the man.

Islam is not about equality, it is about fairness. You do more, you suffer more, you earn more rights.

That a woman has no right to refuse her husband in bed, and that the husband has a right to deny her for whatever reason.

Considering that the man is the authority of the household because of the superiority that Allah has given him based on the points I mentioned, wouldn't it undermine his authority every time his wife sent him to the couch when he told her something that she didn't want to hear?

Secondly, a woman does have the right to deny him sexual relations: When she is on her menses, when she is sick, when she is performing obligatory fasting, or when the relations have the possibility of causing her harm.

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I will find more for you..on the intelligence part. Come back to see it. :)

[Kazu]

I appreciate the reply as that is a really really good explanation on the part, it makes great sense. I would definitely subscribe to that view if only I have enough reasons to believe in this religion in the first place.

As for women who can't have children or can't marry, what good are they for? Because almost everything about them seems need to be related with the presence of a husband in order to complete the deen.

[Amor101]

We need a lot of knowledge. Don't judge things until you learn, because we totally get something off of context. I don't know who said women are less intelligent than men, but it is probably not what the mentioned hadeeth means

"The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" - 4:11

Allow me to explain.

Let's say that a father passes away, and leaves his inheritance to his son, daughter, and wife. The son gets the biggest portion. The reason being that he was given more financial responsibilities than his sister and his mother. What he inherits does not belong to him alone, but to the entire family. His inheritance will be used to feed, clothe, and support his family, and any family that he starts. On the other hand, whatever a woman inherits is hers alone to do with as she pleases.

In the long run, a man ends up with an inheritance equal to, if not less, than a woman's.

"And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women" -2 :282

This verse has nothing to do with a biological or psychological deficiency in a woman. Let's look at the full verse.

O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period, write it down. Let a scribe write it down in justice between you. Let not the scribe refuse to write, as Allah has taught him, so let him write. Let him (the debtor) who incurs the liability dictate, and he must have Taqwa of Allah, his Lord, and diminish not anything of what he owes. But if the debtor is of poor understanding, or weak, or is unable to dictate for himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her. And the witnesses should not refuse when they are called (for evidence). You should not become weary to write it (your contract), whether it be small or big, for its fixed term, that is more just with Allah; more solid as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves, save when it is a present trade which you carry out on the spot among yourselves, then there is no sin on you if you do not write it down. But take witnesses whenever you make a commercial contract. Let neither scribe nor witness suffer any harm, but if you do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So have Taqwa of Allah; and Allah teaches you. And Allah is the All-Knower of everything.

As you can see, this verse refers to business dealings, something that is not in a woman's jurisdiction. While a man focuses his entire attention on business, and on handling the finances, the woman focuses hers on the household. It is not her duty to be aware of the finances of the household, it is the responsibility of the man. Therefore, she cannot be expected to keep up with business contracts for debts on top of her other responsibilities. BUT, if a situation were to arise that would require a woman's testimony, then one other woman should be present so that they can remind one another if one of them doesn't remember enough.

"and the men are a degree above them [women]" -2 :228

This is taken completely out of context. Firstly, it is speaking of divorce, not all women in general. Secondly, the verse means "A degree of responsibility over them", not "a degree above women". This means that men have more responsibilities when it comes to their wives, than a woman does to her husband. Also, if you read the entire verse you would see that the verse does speak in light of women.


And divorced women shall wait (as regards their marriage) for three menstrual periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And they (women) have rights (over their husbands as regards living expenses) similar (to those of their husbands) over them (as regards obedience and respect) to what is reasonable, but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.)

[Simple_Person]

I'm happy for you that you had this sort of higher spiritual level experience. I will not say you're just spouting bs or you are so wrong and deluded. I'm asking you this. Is this fair?Is this fair for you to say this while claiming I will not understand this at all not even one bit? What are you trying to get out of saying this to me? So that I will like "ohh I will never comprehend this experience and he's sounding like he knows everything about the truth and I should believe him"? Do you know how many times someone of other faith, christian, hindu, buddhist have said the same thing to me about theirs? You're talking like you know absolutely everything about me and what I've been through, stereotyping me with a typical atheist like you were. What's the point if your god can't give me this experience? Does he do not want me to believe like you do? You're describing something you're claiming I couldn't get at. I'm already praying in general to any god out there in case he exists, that he would somehow giving me this sort of experience. Allah sets astray then nobody can guide. What kind of god is this?

I hate it when people brand certain people being "spiritual" it makes them as if they are some deluded people believing in things that aren't there. Things that cannot be concluded even using logic, rationality and reason with scientific evidence if it exist. For example, wind we cannot see, but based on logic, rationality and reason we can conclude it does exist. So people that acknowledge that, are "educated"-people and people that are "spiritual" are rather just deluded people that want to believe in something that cannot be confirmed logically, rationally and reasonably. No i have NOT reached a "spiritual"-level experience. You could rather say i have reached a higher level of understanding which i could agree with this wording. Based on what do i say this?

In the Qur'an Allah says

"It is We who relate to you, [O Muhammad], their story in truth. Indeed, they were youths who believed in their Lord, and We increased them in guidance." Qur'an 18:13

This is being said on multiple places. The question is rather..is this so called "delude"-spirtuality that you are making people look as if they are?

Rather is, seeing what people do not see. What am i talking about? It is understanding. We already have said so much to each other. I have shared knowledge with you, but understanding of that knowledge does NOT come from me. You often read in the Qur'an in different ayaat. These parts.

"Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient," Qur'an 2:26

The knowledge given is the EXACT SAME KNOWLEDGE. How come i UNDERSTAND it, yet somebody else does not? It doesn't make sense logically i would say. But i guess i have something or do not have that the other person does have or does not have. So "spirituality" you make it as if saying (no offense to my Christian brothers and sisters), Jesus died for my sins and you will not understand it. While this off course goes against, logic, rationality and reason. However within Islam "guides many" and "misleads many" isn't about something that goes against logic, rationality and reason, rather it goes exactly on that path.

That you will not understand one bit, is solely based on guidance. You see no logic, rationality or reason it, however this isn't even the biggest issue with you and the state of your heart as this is key for understanding. It is rather your approach is that of a teacher and not a student. I already have confirmed Islam by logic, rationality and reason with scientific evidence (FACTS that will NOT CHANGE) and with philosophical approach, that Islam is the truth. What i do not understand yet about Islam and things said in the Qur'an my approach is of a student. I say deep in myself, what kind of wisdom is behind this? Why is this like this and that? How come it is directed to this and that? etc. etc.. i ask question that are relevant and i ask question for the sake of knowing for better understanding. The knowledge i do have (read the aya for example), but i seek the understanding of it.

Just recently i watched or read about a event when Umar ibn Khattab (ra) was caliph. A woman with children came to Umar and said she was poor and her husband and father died during battles and said which ones they were. Umar ordered i believe the best camel to be carrying as much gold as it can. The woman left with the camel and all the gold. One of the servants said "oooh prince of the believers, you have given her too much gold". I at that moment agreed with that servant, but what Umar said, just blew me away and put me to shame. He said i can still remember how her father and husband were struggling during battle, if it was not for them, we would not be enjoying the fruits of their hard work.

This is high level of understanding.

You will NOT understand one bit, because your attitude. You already i believe have often heard in Islam Muslims should be humble. Why? Ever wondered that? How come? What is being humble? Towards whom? What is the benefit of doing so? These are relevant questions you know. However so far it looks like you do not care about asking such questions. You rather look at things from a simplistic perspective. As if everything is black and white. That is why i have advised you to refrain from interacting with society. People these days are very shallow minded. I myself count myself even one of them compared to people of high understanding. However i struggle towards that goal. No please do NOT believe me..even better i wouldn't want you to believe me whatsoever. What i do want you to do is go and use your mind yourself. You are as dumb as me and i am not smarter than you. All this understanding and me thinking clearly is NOT from me. You think such comment would have come from me even 5 years back (when i was still an atheist). I know how stupid, ignorant and a retard i am. I acknowledge me typing a comment that makes sense, is not from me as i am not capable of typing such a comment that makes sense. I am a guy that stumbled over his own words. I am a guy that says something in a such inefficient way that makes the other party just confusing. That is me and i acknowledge that being me.

To find guidance and i will tell you EXACTLY what i have concluded so far. Be honest, secondly, do NOT be a teacher, although being a teacher, never forget you are still a student. Think deeply about things. Just ponder away. Lose the rubbish of finding important what other people say about you or think about you. You ugly? Say i am made this way and i am thank for what i have gotten so to say. You beautiful? DO NOT flaunt it. This is arrogance and pride. Do not feel as if you are better than somebody else. Because you are not. Always keep in the back of your mind people are way ahead of me and i have to actively make it up to even reach their level. Stop listening to music, or slowly stopping it. This really clouds your judgement and your ability to want to think. Go early to bed and get up early. Eat healthy. Dump people near you that you know are NOT good for you. What people am i talking about? People that do not want to think about death/God/purpose of life. Such people sadly exist. If you have such people surrounding you, they will only drag you with them in their rubbish conversations about Kim Kardashian and her new shoes idiotic conversations. The mind like the body needs healthy input. Having healthy input makes you also want to think about beneficial thinks. I mean what benefit will you get to know which shoes Kim Kardashian has right? You get what i mean by this example with Kim Kardashian-nonsense. Think deeply about your heart..clean your heart. Pride, arrogance, envy, greed, dishonesty, lies..i will tell you it is NOT easy to do so. Allah says like you said "Allah sets astray then nobody can guide. What kind of god is this?"

Why does He led some people astray? That aya i earlier posted answers this question. "And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient,". Allah guides whomever He wants? This logically says that Allah also has a certain criteria He uses for certain people to guide. What i said here above is part of that for example as criteria. If you read the Qur'an you will see at different places the people He guides. Their characteristics is shown. You and me even though we might disagree with certain things, if you read those characteristics you will see that are very good characteristics to have. Being patient, being kind, being humble, being compassionate and having empathy towards people, as well as creatures to even the earth it self. DO NOT LIE even if it is against themselves. Do not cheat, having morality, having shame, being shy, not being angry, greedy, being positive in good times and bad times, being thankful for what you have gotten, not committing excess (too much eating, wasting water, wasting electricity, wasting money, etc). So if you want to be among those being guided, search for all those characteristics and write them down. Then actively try to adopt those characteristics and reflect often. As people who reflect will know what they have to clean up (heart/behavior). For example i have created a habit that after every conversation i try to reflect that MAYBE i have said something wrong or even offensive (Telling the truth btw is not being offensive). Some people just want that you never are critical of them. Any ways if i have offended somebody, the next time i see them i apologize to them.

What a great observation. Seems like we do a lot of observations on human behavior in our younger years. From young I knew I was different, I am socially and mentally impaired. I was isolated and people around me would freak like hell if I talk to them. 'oh she can actually speak!' . I would just cry and cry and would always sit at the back, observing people. Never fitting with society. One time my teacher called up my mother and says 'I think your child is possessed by jins, better go check up' because I liked to gaze into the clouds and mindlessly ignoring the class. I don't like to think me being mentally impaired affects my intelligence but this gives me a lot of capacity to process things, me being isolated from other people. So my point here, I have done my observation. In islam it says 'what you like is not always good for you, and what you don't like might be best for you' this what motivates me as I was tryingg sooo hard to fit in society while doing some haram things and stumbles so many times..at times I just doesn't care anymore. I just wanted to be 'normal'. But I believed I may be a loser to society but favored in Allah's eyes, so I started to feel MUCH better about myself. It's like a weight suddenly been lifted off. After that I do everything I wanted to do as long as its not haram, even if it seems weird to some people 'why are you doing this'? for no reason at all. I do what I want because at the end of the day, who truly cares?

If you care about what others think of you..well this will sum everything up.

I also have had my fair share of people and their nonsense. At my lowest point in life when i needed people the most, everybody was busy with their own life while at that young age i needed help the most. Since that day (16-17 years ago) something snapped in my head. Years after i still tried with other people to "fit" in. But people are by default misguided. Only people who question things and are "strangers" to society, will be guided God willing. So NEVER think of pleasing people, because you CAN'T. My own family i give them a hard time, because i put salt on their wounds as i speak about hypocritical actions or when they try to "brainwash" me in loving money i reply, how much will i be taking with me after my death? Or people will forget me in less time than they have known me. Just think about the LAST person that have died. Was it last month? Last years? A few years back? How many people still think or talk about that individual? Everybody has forgotten about him/her. Think about why certain thinks have been made haram? You wanna talk about alcohol? drugs? disco? premarital relationship? money? pork? With regret i say i have been there done that. What have i benefited from that? Absolutely NOTHING. It is seriously all a lie. I am not trying to act all tough, but just saying really it is all a lie. It is empty as the words itself stands for. It brings you ONLY misery. That is why i in one of my previous comments said "you will realize it i guarantee you". Because all those lies of everything that Allah has made haram but them being beautified by sheytan, brings you NOTHING BUT depression and misery.

Now come to think of it, even if I'm again on the opposite side of the spectrum,noting I'm not doing it because of people, but I genuinely want to be who I am while having common sense (dont harm yourself, dont hurt others, do good etc etc) because at the end of the day, who truly cares? I personally believe this is the point of balance. When you fit islam in the equation on everything, of course you're gonna get biased. It's not wrong but are you not realizing you could look at it from so many ways. I'm not rejecting the validity of your opinion in this case from islamic point of view, but I realized, there's other ways to it. I never did fit well with society as I find so many things wrong with them. I understand most people is at some point struggling like I did, but perhaps with different things. I don't want to act like "look at me I'm smarter than you, I know a lot about human behavior, wish you could just realize you done so many stupid things contributing to society retardation it's making the world a living hell for us all" no, telling them they are retarded won't help it but if you could, try giving them some emotional support, the rest is up to them. Ever seeing someone acts like douchebag but inside they're lonely and lost.

After all, mine and yours society is different. Living in the east, I could say, everybody knows everybody..everybody cares about everybody (when it comes to religion practices) I could totally be apathetic to Islam if I want to, but because I have this kind of society, I'm living in prison now. So is this comforting at all? But thinking of my family, I just couldn't leave or hurt them, after all my parents are old and sick and a brother who keeps stealing knifes from the kitchen. I'll pretend to be anything they want me to be, even if this means sacrificing my freedom and marriage life. This world is temporary. I acknowledged my limit as a human and intend to make the most out of it.

What is the definition of hurting others? Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) has said the least harm you can do to your neighbors is having them smelled the food your are cooking, but they not getting a share. This makes me just be baffled how "not hurting others" is defined. Doing good, having ill feelings even towards others while not showing them is already not oke. I mean again look at the perspective. People look at those things from a very shallow point of view, while these things go DEEP. Do not care about my opinion and i even ask you to not listen to my opinion. All i ask for you to do is to question and actively pursue as a student. If you become a convinced Muslim or not, i will NOT benefit you know however i have two things. It is MANDATORY for me to spread the message of Islam correctly and secondly having the peace of heart and peace of mind i want others to also have. It is NOT part of the behavior of a Muslim to enjoy good without sharing what he/she enjoying. Makes me think about Ibrahim(as). As he always shared his food with others.

Now this problem with religion is that it decides for you your purpose, what you should be, what you should not, what you find your worth in. This is true especially for women. Islam doesn't do a good job in empowering women. Sure some speaks good thing about them, but a lot of the sources are not in their favor. Prophet says the best adornment/joy in this world are the righteous women. Why would I wanna be the best adornment/joy?

"And remain in your homes." [Al-Azhaab:33]"

A muslim woman is best to remain in her home unless for necessity such as having outside of home careers only if the society requires them, and its important to observe proper hijab when going out. Islam doesn't restrict women to work outside but isn't it better to remain inside? When I was young I STRUGGLED to find my identity as a girl in islam, I wanted to please Allah, I wanted to live his ways to the fullest. My friends aren't very religious and they're all highly ambitious people. But in secret, I was seriously considering to marry at early age after school, wear niqab, be a stay at home mom while abandoning my ambition to be a renowned scientist, because according to islam this is the best profession a muslim woman can have. I'm not saying be a stay at home mom is bad but it's preferable not to opt out.

What i often see is that many women having this drive to be this or that. I have also done my investigation in to this and tried to understand this. You know what shocked me about the findings? All propaganda. Hear me out. To come to a conclusion, you first look at people who already have achieved those things. For example there are people who say purpose of life is money and fame. So then we look at rock-stars who are multi-millionaires and they commit suicide. This to me rather shows it is incorrect that that is the purpose of life. So with women and having this drive practicing certain practice, i looked at the women who indeed have achieved their goals. I noticed that many ended up in depression. Some even had zina (non-Muslims women) but tried in to tricking the men in to making them believe they were having the pill, while in reality they were not on the pill. All to just have a baby. Women when they at least hit their 30's become "ugly" for worldly view. So men who go after their desires go after younger men. Such women who have gone past their 30, they have money, house, car, freedom and even occasional man that only sees some meat to have intimacy, however their depression is not having a child. That is when i realized whole child thing for women. What does come down to with women? Having a husband that loves them and gives them attention and gives them a child.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...ldless-42.html

So by logic we must look at people who did have "achieved" what they desired, however does it mean it was good for you? Allah has created us certain way although we might not know why something is better for us now, but if we do not follow that path in the end we will be miserable. So if you have read that story of that woman, things fit the picture.

Several months ago I posted a thread titled 'help me understand men/women logic in islam'. No one, absolutely no one counter my arguments with relevant points but gave me the context of the translation (which doesn't make sense) that prophet said women are less intelligent than men, while in fact it is backed up by science that women are actually less intelligent than men because women in general are more likely to have mean IQ level while men varies a lot more. Why islam tries so desperately to sugarcoat this? Why there is more women in hell than men? Is this not because they are less intelligent? One even says ' I assure you Allah didn't create women with greater defects' again bias, I don't want to believe in something I don't subscribe to in the first place let alone be assured. Though you confirmed that women are less intelligent, but didn't really answered my question. I think most women in islam accepted this because they believe they are naturally submissive and in line with my point that islam doesn't do a good job in empowering women thus why I think a just god wouldn't do this.

Since I'm not a muslim anymore and don't have to depend on a husband, I wanted to pursue the career as a scientist but as a woman with average intelligence, I could use the intellect of a man more than he himself wants to. The one way I could make the most out of my temporary life is making a real change in this world the way I wanted to, not by what religion defines for me. Eventually I understand, countering me means disagreeing with Allah, which you can't do. I feel like arguing in an islamic forum is not gonna get me anywhere as you can't speak something beyond your limit as a muslim, I'm so sorry... This has been a long rant

Women being less intelligent than men, some people see that as a "offensive¨ thing. It has nothing to do of being offensive, rather it is what it is. Is this a bad thing? No it is not, because men lack in other things. In Islam marriage is completion of the religion. Why? This is a relevant question right? When one completes the other. The man has more intellect, but the woman is emotionally stronger. This completes the other making them a good team to fill up what the other is missing. So to give you the example. If i am having a difficulty talking with somebody or whatever, asking my wife and her to teach me or explain things to me with her part of the marriage makes me understand things better. Women needs to be taken care of, is the duty of a man and she takes care of her man (woman are a tranquility for men). Back as an atheist/culture-Muslim i remember when having a girl-friend this tranquility. You are at ease and if you put your head on her lap as a man i got a peace of mind. However women these days have become like devils, the LAST place you want to be to have a peace of mind is with your wife. Why? Because they have been corrupted with feminism and worldly desires (money, materialism..etc) and manipulate their husband to go buy them this and that because the neighbors "also" have it. So for me as a unmarried guy, i say my life without a women for now is better. Until Allah grants me one that i DESERVE and she deserves me.

About more women in hell. It has if you ask me not so much to do with intellect whatsoever. Rather ungratefulness. The example Rasullah(saws) used was rather to the smallest degree as it was "nothing" so to say. However that was you could say the "LEAST" baddest attitude of some women. What about the rest of them? Look at this video to see a heartless woman..if you ask me. If this is not being ungrateful..then i do not know anymore.



"Rant" as much as you want, i already was planning to close my account, so until then (until hadji period starts) i will keep this account open.

I am only giving you a smiley of..we will see as you will only feel misery. A wise person is one who learns from the mistakes others have made before him/her. He/she will make her own mistakes, however they wlll not be the ones made previously by others. In other words reaching a higher degree of being a better person and more successful in life from all perspectives.

- - - Updated - - -

I appreciate the reply as that is a really really good explanation on the part, it makes great sense. I would definitely subscribe to that view if only I have enough reasons to believe in this religion in the first place.

As for women who can't have children or can't marry, what good are they for? Because almost everything about them seems need to be related with the presence of a husband in order to complete the deen.

Ever wondered that MAYBE..JUST MAYBE you do not know what Allah knows? Some do not have children as a test for them. While others maybe as parents would do a lot of injustice towards their children and thus prevent them becoming pregnant. Or others would only make a life of a man only harder if they married..?? You do not know, so do not act if you do. This whole life is a test. Allah already knows what we harbor and His plan is WAAAY before we have our plan.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Greetings, I'm sorry I don't believe I'm doing that. Rather, at such an early age I only learn knowledge about Islam until I'm a bit older and started to come across the opposite types of medias, I realized I've been very biased all along the same way these medias are biased. So I believe I started to adopt the more neutral side to it.

I would not call leaning towards Atheism/Agnosticism as being "Neutral". But you stated in your previous post:

But until I opened myself to the outer world, I started becoming friends with some non muslims, reading forums and articles etc. I changed my views on life, I became very liberal in my thinking, and this wasn't a good thing.

So you admitted that you had "corrupted" your beliefs by constantly feeding your mind with anti religion/anti Islamic ideas and perspectives and consequently have been sold out by such rhetoric. This is also because you already had a deficiency in your imaan from the beginning and this deficiency just grew more and more to what it is today.

That is a very good explanation and I would definitely subscribe to that IF ONLY I subscribe to this religion in the first place. I wouldn't subscribe to this religion just by reading your explanation because it happens to be biased as well and apparently I don't have enough reason to believe it.

Whatever one believes in whether it is atheism/agnostisicm, Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc then it is obvious that each side will give their view. But you have come here for the Islamic view and that is the view you will obviously get.

When I was muslim I once thought that a god must exist because if he doesn't, then ultimate justice is impossible. Ultimate justice must prevail because if it doesn't, then the world will be so messed up and to a point it's impossible the world could even exist without ultimate justice. Now come to think of it, what if the world is meant to not have ultimate justice? What if the world is meant to be miserable and messed up? On what basis can I relate the existence of both ultimate justice and god thus confirm it? Because of one of the 99 names of Allah? Well, that is your version of god. God could very well be just, in this case, Allah, and could also be unjust, if he chose to. Allah could choose to just give everyone a very very clear evidence of his existence so only the ones refuses to accept will go to hell because he clearly rejects the absolute truth presented right in front of him, but now Allah chose not to because he is giving us this gift of free will and mind.

So to say that we believe in complete injustice, no, justice is what we make ourselves, we try to be just to as much people as possible. Common sense dictates we should treat others just like how we like to be treated. But in the context of what we want, in truth we want complete justice to prevail, and very much regret that this could not happen. Does wanting to believe in complete justice immediately makes it real? No

Though this is not a good argument as we have different definitions of what justice is.

How did we make "justice" ourselves? from thin air? How did we even begin to have any feelings and emotions in the first place? Again from thin air? How did we ever have the morality we had today in the very first place? Oh I forgot you believe that energy, matter, life and human personality and intelligence all came from randomly from "nothing" and we are merely "randomly" feeling all of these feelings which came in the midst of chaos in the Universe "randomly" resulting from the big bang. Do you not see how absurd your thinking and logic is? Every living creature on this Earth has its own specific instinct, personality, physical capability and unique intelligence, which changes with experience. So did all of this occur randomly out of nothing just like us and the Universe and what it contains? This is without a doubt proof of an intelligent creator and designer. But it requires a person to ponder and contemplate without the restraints of corrupted thinking and arrogance in the heart.

Although we discussed that ultimate justice for all will take place in the Hereafter, there is still much justice that does occur in this world. Some people refer to it as "karma", or "what goes around comes around" etc. This is something even people with no faith have found and it certainly points to a God that does "care" and is in control. So many things that occur in one's life point towards some sort of supernatural control. Whether you call it God or not. But those who will reject and disbelieve will find any excuse to do so and will never believe no matter what evidence is put in front of them.

I'm sorry but what are you talking about?
I'm not an atheist.. everyone seems to stereotype me with a typical modern day atheist, anti-islamist.

My statement was in response to the following statement of yours in the OP:

I'm not really happy not believing in God, I want to believe spiritually, I want to be in heaven with all my loved ones,

This clearly indicates that you felt Imaan in the past and that you yearn to feel this Imaan again, otherwise you would not be here. With regards to my statement what I meant was that each of our hearts and souls yearns for Allah and this is why you are feeling this why because your heart and soul is yearning for the belief it once had. InshaAllah we pray it will return. Ameen

So are you not always trying to come up with all sorts of reasons to believe in god and ignoring absolutely everything else? and telling me not to befriend non muslim except what is necessary? telling me what to do and what not to do? what if they do the same thing to you to strengthen their own faith, even though in your thinking they are the wrong ones.

There is absolutely no reason not to believe in God. It baffles me that there are an infinite number of processes and cell multiplications that have occurred from the beginning until now and will continue occurring in a constant cycle of life, death and then life again, with everything in perfect harmony and Constance, yet there are people out there that believe all of this to have come out from "nothing" and to have occurred completely "randomly" out of nothing? Are you seriously telling me that the whole Universe with everything it contains of trillions of creations many of which are more complex than we can ever imagine and all of this occurred randomly and everything around us is occurring randomly? SubhanAllah! These Atheist Scientists are taking you and other atheist/agnostics for fools.

Some Atheist Scientists try to explain this by talking about some absurd "theory" about a Multiverse Universe? Are you serious? Then you talk about evidence and logic. These atheist scientists are deceiving you because they know they will never have the answers to the most fundamental questions of our existence and they will continue deceiving you until death overtakes you and you die in disbelief. May Allah never allow that to happen and may he guide you to the truth. Ameen

Atheist Scientists do not own science. They are given the biggest platforms on the atheist biased media but as I have said before there are many scientists that believe in God. Atheists talk as if science limits itself to things that you can see and touch as if there is empirical evidence for every single thing that science describes. Can you or have you ever seen gravity? But you will state that there is evidence that it does exist. Similarly there is overwhelming evidence that God exists. In fact a new cosmological theory has abrogated the previous "Copernican" cosmological theory. Have you heard of the Planck satellite mission around Earth when it was discovered that there is an axis around which the entire Universe revolves and at the centre of that axis is our solar system. SubhanAllah. This also refutes Deism as it is almost as if to say that the entire Universe is made just for us.

This also goes against the hypothesis that we are just insignificant molecules in the wide expanse of the Universe. Do you know what they called this discovery? The "Axis of evil". They hate for their to be any evidence of an "intelligent designer" or in other words God. So they decided to name it something hateful. This is also proof of a "caring" God who has put us in a special place right in the middle of his Universe where everything else revolves around our planet. This also disapproves an age old unproven atheist scientific theory that we all came randomly out of nothing in this Earth in the midst of chaos across the Universe as tat would have meant our solar system would have ended up anywhere across the Universe. I have no doubt that Scientists knew for a long time that there is evidence of an intelligent designer but they hid it due to the Atheist agenda being directed by Iblis and his followers (both man and Jinn).

As stated in my previous post, if all the scientists in the world came together they could not even create a fly. In fact if they spent billions of years they could not even create a simple atom out of nothing. Yet there are many arrogant people who reject the one whom created us and everything around us.

Almighty Allah says: O mankind! A similitude has been coined, so listen to it (carefully): Verily! Those on whom you call besides Allah, cannot create (even) a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly snatched away a thing from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought. (22:73)

If mankind cannot create a single atom out of nothing then how can the Universe and what it contains with its infinite creations and constant processes occur and come out of nothing?

The fact of the matter is that no matter what "evidence" or signs are put in front of certain people, they will always CHOOSE not to believe in the evidence that God exists. This is because of their arrogance that has put a seal on their hearts so they will not acknowledge the truth when it is laid out in front of them and they have a seal on their eyes so that they cannot see the truth in front of them. Most unfortunate are such people may Allah guide them and unseal the hearts and eyes. Ameen

So my sister we can continue having this discussion for years on end, having to and from's but at the end of the day i is all down to you to act on the advice given to you if you truly want guidance to the truth. You have said it yourself:

I'm not really happy not believing in God, I want to believe spiritually, I want to be in heaven with all my loved ones,

You are clearly not happy in your current state and what you believe in at present otherwise you would not be here. No doubt there is a clear void in your heart and nothing else will ever be able to fill this void except belief in Allah. The so called "flaws" you refer to about with Islam are only flaws in your own thinking and lack of knowledge and a disease in your heart (in the metaphoric sense) on matters which you should have cleared properly before the deficiencies in your Imaan grew further. These "flaws" that you talk of are also because it does not agree with your Nafs (inner desires). These are the things you need to clear up and get clarified so that if Allah wills Imaan will eventually return to your heart inshaAllah. So raise and open your hands unto Allah and ask him sincerely for guidance. Make the necessary effort in accordance with the advice's you have been given. We can only advise you, the rest is up to Allah as only he can return Imaan to your heart.

I hope you find the following video helpful:

Scientist proves the existence of God

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVxegSvCEcs

[Hamza Asadullah]

I appreciate the reply as that is a really really good explanation on the part, it makes great sense. I would definitely subscribe to that view if only I have enough reasons to believe in this religion in the first place.

As for women who can't have children or can't marry, what good are they for? Because almost everything about them seems need to be related with the presence of a husband in order to complete the deen.

Kazu you keep making statements pertaining to Islamic matters but when you are given an answer that satisfies and clarifies your misconception, you then say "If I had subscribed to Islam I would have believed that but I don't".

Surely you need to concentrate on the root of your problems first. You have already stated that you have gone from forum to forum asking various questions about Islam and your disbelief and if I recall correctly you asked a similar question about your disbelief in Ummah forum. You had also mentioned that you debated with your Muslim friends about Islam.

Kazu there will always be a continuous "to and from" with you and others unless and until you tackle the root of your problems first and foremost. Once the root of the problem is tackled then all other issues related to it will also disappear inshaAllah. One of the main issue's with people who question the existence of God, and in your case viewing "Islam has having flaws" is essentially saying that God's rules have "flaws" and so God must have flaws in his wisdom for why he made such a decision in the first place. This is nothing else but arrogance in thinking we know better than God and so is one of the main reasons why you backed away from Islam and eventually lost your Imaan. This arrogance began and had grown in the heart and is similar to the story of Iblees who was of the pious but when God made a decision, he did not agree with it, so arrogance had grown in his heart to the point where he thought he knew better than God.

So by you having rejected the wisdom of God, then you are essentially saying that you know better than him and that he should not have done things or made decisions in the way that he had done. Similarly atheists refuse to acknowledge the existence of God even if "evidence" is laid out in front of them. They will always try and find a way around such "evidence" in order to justify in their own minds that God does not exist. They "choose" to refuse to want to believe that they will be accountable in front of a higher power. You can see this in their demeanor especially in debates where they snap very quickly and become impatient, angry and bitter toward those who believe. This is nothing but sheer arrogance which has caused other diseases in their hearts.

So no one will ever be able to convince you of anything unless and until you tackle the root of your problems which is to get rid of this arrogance from your heart that refuses to acknowledge and accept the wisdom of God. Once you have tackled the root then everything else will fall into place. We must humble ourselves in front of our creator and not allow our Nafs (inner desires) from rejecting the wisdom of God. Everything he has done , he has done only for us and what is best for us. We are nothing in front of him. Can you not comprehend the vastness and complexity of this Universe and what it contains? Therefore how can we as specs of dust, lowly beings compared to the most high, even begin to question his wisdom and decisions. For his knowledge is "whole" and complete and encompasses everything, whereas our knowledge is limited and narrow only to what is relevant to us in our lives. Therefore he knows and we know not.

So we must put our trust, reliance and faith in him knowing that we as created being need him and cannot be without him. We must come out of this arrogant way of thinking that we know better when it is only our Nafs and the disease in our hearts making us think in this way. Therefore Kazu you know what you need to do and if you continue like this then you will only remain in a state of loss, confusion and not knowing where you are in life nor what exactly you are looking for.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Kazu;

Rather, what I meant, was one is not supposed to doubt Allah if he is a true believer.

I do agree with you, but faith or trust in Allah is a journey, always one day at a time, and life throws us lots of problems. The best analogy I can think of is parachuting. It is easy to sit in your chair and say, I believe parachuting is safe, but that means nothing. The only way to have faith in a parachute, is to go up in a plane, and jump.

If you jump once, you have faith, just once. If you jump a hundred times, you put your trust in that parachute a hundred times. But if you have a close encounter with death, will you have that faith to jump one more time? There are no guarantees when you parachute, people die sometimes.

You cannot know the outcome of your next parachute jump, but you have to put your faith in that parachute and trust it totally, or you will not jump.

Faith in Allah is similar, you just have to put your trust in him totally, you have to trust fully that he created the universe and life. If you can accept just this one thing as an absolute truth, you can then spend the rest of your life striving to understand his word. All truth must lead towards compassion, justice, patience, kindness, forgiveness and mercy, so maybe reflect on the 99 names of Allah.

As anyone will try to find any reasons at all to validate his stance, and confirmed what he believes, usually in bias.

:)


In the spirit of searching for our creator.

Eric

[Kazu]

I would not call leaning towards Atheism/Agnosticism as being "Neutral".

Yes..after all we believe in different things

So you admitted that you had "corrupted" your beliefs by constantly feeding your mind with anti religion/anti Islamic ideas and perspectives and consequently have been sold out by such rhetoric. This is also because you already had a deficiency in your imaan from the beginning and this deficiency just grew more and more to what it is today.

Yes I admit this.. yes I do. My first ever apostasy was 3 years ago, I stopped praying 5 times in about 2 months, I stopped going to classes, the guilt I had was unbearable...I felt like I was going crazy. In my mind "islam requires me as a woman to best remain in my home unless for a necessity and here I am in a university enrolling in a course (which is already dominated by men, so not really a necessity for a woman to be here), mixing up with boys, discussing things whether be it intellectual or just trivial stuff, people dont really cover their aura properly, people kept having crushes and dating different ppl, my parents kept pushing me to get the best grade, like, what am i even doing here..this can't be right.." I had depression.. I thought I was going crazy, and all these people kept saying I'm just not sincere in my heart,I had corrupted my heart with things I shouldn't. but I know, I know, I know I'm being sincere enough..if there is a god, he would know, yes he would know, that I'm being honest and humble enough, and he wouldn't punish me for this, it's just too unbearable, I'm only human after all and a woman with strong emotions...and if there's a god, he wouldn't put me in this situation.

I don't know what to believe, different people kept telling me different things while at the same time having so much daily commitments, having to pretend constantly in front of all people (ppl can't know or else I'm doomed, if I live in a muslim country I'll be dead long time ago) and the thoughts of I can die at any time without knowing my god, without contributing something big to the community and making my parents proud. Eventually I surround myself with some religious friends, start going to usrah, eventually I accepted back Islam and recited my shahadah..but I did this because I wanted to stay in the 'comfort zone', to complete my study, but in the back of my head, there are just some things I can't ignore. Now 2 years after finishing my studies, I wanted to address these questions I had and as usual, at first I'm feeling this guilt again, it's just a natural reaction because I'm leaving something I've held in my heart all of my life. It's just a natural reaction. I thought I had corrupted myself by believing these anti-islam propaganda, being biased and one-sided...but after several months I regained my composure, I exercise daily, look into the beauty of nature, converse positively with friends and family while being away from these types of medias..and I began coming back to address the things I'm not finished on. I adopted this 'neutral' approach to all things. And yes I was a libtard. Not living in the west, I only knew so much about the left, right-wing movement and what they call liberal and conservative, democrat and republican. I don't know much. If you ask an average muslim in my place, they won't have any idea what a leftist is. People here just like to stay the way they are. While being an ex-muslim and still being comfortable in hijab, I criticized the right wingers who wanted hijab and niqabs to be banned in the west, and their mentality cherry-picking the quran and hadeeth, taking them out of context just to provoke nice, moderate muslims. I hate them. And I also hate the muslims cherry-picking the quran taking them out of context just to suit their needs. I need to find the point of balance between being liberal and conservative.

There is absolutely no reason not to believe in God. It baffles me that there are an infinite number of processes and cell multiplications that have occurred from the beginning until now and will continue occurring in a constant cycle of life, death and then life again, with everything in perfect harmony and Constance, yet there are people out there that believe all of this to have come out from "nothing" and to have occurred completely "randomly" out of nothing? Are you seriously telling me that the whole Universe with everything it contains of trillions of creations many of which are more complex than we can ever imagine and all of this occurred randomly and everything around us is occurring randomly? SubhanAllah! These Atheist Scientists are taking you and other atheist/agnostics for fools.

Ever thought about deism? Pantheism? Even Einstein said the question about the existence of god is the hardest one and will always be. The very man who discovered e=mc2. The part in his brain responsible for conceptualizing physics problems was bigger than an average person. And he wasn't an atheist. nor he doesn't wish to be worshipped. He even said a god doesn't play dice. Anyway, I'm still searching and I don't want to talk too much about something I'm not finished on. I'm not your typical atheist. But anyway I want to thank some of the infos you gave me, it will still add up to my knowledge somehow, so I will look them up later.

No doubt there is a clear void in your heart and nothing else will ever be able to fill this void except belief in Allah. The so called "flaws" you refer to about with Islam are only flaws in your own thinking and lack of knowledge and a disease in your heart (in the metaphoric sense) on matters which you should have cleared properly before the deficiencies in your Imaan grew further.

Again, why? why? don't you think this is one-sided ? Pls think about this. This isn't the way to reach out to people like me out there.

I hope you find the following video helpful:

Scientist proves the existence of God

Thank you, will check it out.

[Kazu]

Whatever one believes in whether it is atheism/agnostisicm, Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc then it is obvious that each side will give their view. But you have come here for the Islamic view and that is the view you will obviously get.

Yes exactly. I didn't realized this when I first posted in the forum. But I understand that. I understand people here can't speak about something beyond their limit as a muslim, so I won't have a proper argument in a muslim forum. But I appreciate the replies, it will still add up to my knowledge. Maybe after this I'll go search for an agnostic forum, I don't know if there's one. However these people had spent their time reading my posts and gave their thoughts , so out of courtesy I'll reply a bit.

[Kazu]

Ever wondered that MAYBE..JUST MAYBE you do not know what Allah knows? Some do not have children as a test for them. While others maybe as parents would do a lot of injustice towards their children and thus prevent them becoming pregnant. Or others would only make a life of a man only harder if they married..?? You do not know, so do not act if you do. This whole life is a test. Allah already knows what we harbor and His plan is WAAAY before we have our plan.

Yes I wondered about that. In fact, I've wondered about nearly everything these people tell me what to be wondered about since I was muslim before. But I think this sounds like a big cop-out. Know what I mean? As a science student (I don't mean to belittle anyone from other fields) science teaches me to always be skeptical and questioning. I'll give an example. Prayer, du'a. While muslims believe dua means you ask something from Allah to be granted,, but when it comes to its results, you CAN get what you asked, and you CAN CAN'T get what you asked. 'If this guy gets what he asked, then this is the blessing for him. But wait, what if he doesn't get what he wants?' In analogy with a technician with a broken aquarium, filled up the tank with water to test the glass, and there's holes here and there. Then the technician will say 'okay lets cover up the hole' ; 'what if he doesn't get what he wants? lets cover it up, say this is a test for him' Thus I don't think a dua is effective to ask for something from god, but it's just a measure to test his iman and reliance on Allah, after all Allah likes people who years only for his help and just be submissive.

When you already have this preconceived believe in something even before questioning something, this is going to distort your thinking. 'what if she can't have children? or can't marry? what happens to privileges she can have when she's married?' 'Well...lets just say this is just a test for her, this is her fate, maybe she'll be doing terrible stuff to her children so ...' when you realized really really terrible things still happened to kids like mothers selling out their daughter for prostitution in a muslim community, yes, this happened. 'well.....lets just say this is a test for the children, maybe this is a retribution for the children as maybe Allah knows the kids might do really really terrible things in the future so we're cancelling out the sins'. What is this? I thought fate is what we make for ourselves, unless the uncontrollable. In the islamic belief, I understand that we make our own fates and Allah can't interfere in it unless death and whatever we can't control. In his ultimate book in the heaven (the louh al mahfuz), Allah doesn't sets for us our fates, but he only knows what our actions will be and wrote it down even before the universe existed.) correct me if I'm wrong but I find this was a misconception so I looked it up and found this explanation.

I don't mean this to sound offensive but me not being a native english speaker, I think I tried my best to explain this.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Yes I admit this.. yes I do. My first ever apostasy was 3 years ago, I stopped praying 5 times in about 2 months, I stopped going to classes, the guilt I had was unbearable...I felt like I was going crazy. In my mind "islam requires me as a woman to best remain in my home unless for a necessity and here I am in a university enrolling in a course (which is already dominated by men, so not really a necessity for a woman to be here), mixing up with boys, discussing things whether be it intellectual or just trivial stuff, people dont really cover their aura properly, people kept having crushes and dating different ppl, my parents kept pushing me to get the best grade, like, what am i even doing here..this can't be right.." I had depression.. I thought I was going crazy, and all these people kept saying I'm just not sincere in my heart,I had corrupted my heart with things I shouldn't. but I know, I know, I know I'm being sincere enough..if there is a god, he would know, yes he would know, that I'm being honest and humble enough, and he wouldn't punish me for this, it's just too unbearable, I'm only human after all and a woman with strong emotions...and if there's a god, he wouldn't put me in this situation.

As we go through the journey of life then we will inevitably go through many types of different situations in our lives. That is part of the test of life in that we are tested through different types of situations, but if we have nothing to "guide" us through the complexities of life then surely we will be lost, swaying from here to there, not knowing which direction we are going. Hence why as Muslims we have the perfect guide in our lives as the Qur'an and Sunnah along with the consensus of scholarly teachings and explanations. We totally submit ourselves unto him and know that we must obey him only for our own good. Although he has given us consequences for not following his commands, his mercy and forgiveness is far greater. He is more generous than we can ever comprehend and he loves us far more than we can ever imagine. His rewards for our obedience will be far greater than the good we would have done in this world.

There is a correlation of thought processes with those who have lost faith and those who are losing it in that they blame God for things that have gone wrong in their lives and the bad things that are happening in the world. They fail to want to comprehend that there is a divine wisdom behind it all and actually many people after having gone through such experiences come out at the end accepting there was a profound wisdom behind it all. But those people who after going through any type of trial, hardship and adversity become weak and succumb to the whispers of shaythan and their desires and start blaming God for what they are going through or for the bad things happening in the world. As I have stated before and I will state again that such people have deficiencies in their hearts that grow as time goes on.

The only way to overcome being angry towards Allah and blaming him for bad things that happen in peoples lives is to firstly really want to change from your current state. Surely you being here then deep down you do want to change from your current state. Then you will have to swallow your ego and admit that you have a problem in that this is a negative and detrimental aspect of your personality. Secondly you will have to totally submit your will and to humble yourself unto Allah and rid your heart of pride and arrogance in that you do not question God's will and divine wisdom just because you do not understand it. There are infinite things we do not understand then does that mean we question all those infinite things? There is no logic in that. Therefore you must accept that your knowledge is limited whereas Allah's knowledge is infinite and he knows what you know not.

So know that everything that Allah does is good, wise and just. Allah does what He does for reasons that are known to Him; His slaves or some of them may know some of those reasons, or their limited minds may be unable to comprehend much of the divine wisdom behind things.

Ibn al-Qayyim (Ra) said: Allah is Most Wise. He does not do anything in vain or for no purpose. This is indicated by His words and the words of His Messenger (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam).

I don't know what to believe, different people kept telling me different things while at the same time having so much daily commitments, having to pretend constantly in front of all people (ppl can't know or else I'm doomed, if I live in a muslim country I'll be dead long time ago) and the thoughts of I can die at any time without knowing my god, without contributing something big to the community and making my parents proud. Eventually I surround myself with some religious friends, start going to usrah, eventually I accepted back Islam and recited my shahadah..but I did this because I wanted to stay in the 'comfort zone', to complete my stu when dy, but in the back of my head, there are just some things I can't ignore. Now 2 years after finishing my studies, I wanted to address these questions I had and as usual, at first I'm feeling this guilt again, it's just a natural reaction because I'm leaving something I've held in my heart all of my life. It's just a natural reaction. I thought I had corrupted myself by believing these anti-islam propaganda, being biased and one-sided...but after several months I regained my composure, I exercise daily, look into the beauty of nature, converse positively with friends and family while being away from these types of medias..and I began coming back to address the things I'm not finished on. I adopted this 'neutral' approach to all things. And yes I was a libtard. Not living in the west, I only knew so much about the left, right-wing movement and what they call liberal and conservative, democrat and republican. I don't know much. If you ask an average muslim in my place, they won't have any idea what a leftist is. People here just like to stay the way they are. While being an ex-muslim and still being comfortable in hijab, I criticized the right wingers who wanted hijab and niqabs to be banned in the west, and their mentality cherry-picking the quran and hadeeth, taking them out of context just to provoke nice, moderate muslims. I hate them. And I also hate the muslims cherry-picking the quran taking them out of context just to suit their needs. I need to find the point of balance between being liberal and conservative.

It is very apparent from all of your writings here that you are very confused with regards to your beliefs which are very incoherent. As I have stated before atheists/deists are very confused about their beliefs in general. From many of the debates and discussions ive had and heard of atheists/deists then they will keep changing and contradicting themselves with regards to their beliefs. They will keep swaying from here to there not knowing what direction they are going. Surely you do not want to spend your life like this? Constantly swaying from here to there and having incoherent contradictory baseless beliefs. At least if you follow Islam you will have a fully established, authenticated and coherent belief system which is fully backed by divine wisdom.

You talk about politics but secularism is the religion for those without a religion. Secularism breeds the nastiest and most selfish and evil politics known to mankind. For themn this world is a stage play. They will split up the people by dividing them into left and right, conservative, liberal and republicans etc. Essentially all of these political parties are the same, they are just different sides of the same coin. They use media propaganda to put fear into society as they see it as the best way of controlling it. Hence why they use the "divide and conquer" rule. They care not about the people - you and me do not matter to them, we are just pawns. This is your secular system of freedom and separation of religion from state. You seperate God from state and you will invite the enemy of man - shaythan to run the state as he is doing in the world today where we have unimaginabley corrupt governments and leaders . A system only in it for the elite. A system full of liars, cheats and frauds. They commit the worse atrocities known to mankind and then people have the audacity to blame their terrible crimes and evil on God. Shame on those people.

Ever thought about deism? Pantheism? Even Einstein said the question about the existence of god is the hardest one and will always be. The very man who discovered e=mc2. The part in his brain responsible for conceptualizing physics problems was bigger than an average person. And he wasn't an atheist. nor he doesn't wish to be worshipped. He even said a god doesn't play dice. Anyway, I'm still searching and I don't want to talk too much about something I'm not finished on. I'm not your typical atheist. But anyway I want to thank some of the infos you gave me, it will still add up to my knowledge somehow, so I will look them up later.

Kazu I do not put my faith in a created human. I put my faith in the one who created the human. I do not put my faith in humans that make baseless assumptions as to why we are here, whether it is deism, atheism etc but I put my belief in a caring God that has given us all the guidance we require to succeed in this life and the next. What you believe is totally up to you, but know that you will have no excuse in front of Allah for rejecting belief due to your sheer arrogance in blaming God for his divine wisdom in matters you do not understand.

Again, why? why? don't you think this is one-sided ? Pls think about this. This isn't the way to reach out to people like me out there.

There is no other side that has any substance whatsoever. All of your arguments against God and the wisdom of God are emotion based, incoherent and you are swaying from here to there in confusion not knowing what direction you are going in. You blame God for things that you perceive have gone wrong in your life and for the bad things that happen in the world. But you blame not the fact that it is humans with free will who are doing the bad things.

But I leave you with this - The only way you will believe is to totally submit your will unto God, act with utter humility, meekness and humbleness towards him and accept his divine wisdom in that just like there are so many things we do not understand about his creations in the Universe and Earth, then similarly why do we need to understand his full divine wisdom behind everything in order to accept his divine wisdom? Surely he will inform us properly on the day of Judgement as to the divine wisdom of everything we never understood but for now we must go through life treating it as a test, knowing we will eventually face God and be accountable for all of our actions.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes exactly. I didn't realized this when I first posted in the forum. But I understand that. I understand people here can't speak about something beyond their limit as a muslim, so I won't have a proper argument in a muslim forum. But I appreciate the replies, it will still add up to my knowledge. Maybe after this I'll go search for an agnostic forum, I don't know if there's one. However these people had spent their time reading my posts and gave their thoughts , so out of courtesy I'll reply a bit.

It is not that Muslims in this forum or any other cannot speak beyond their limit as a Muslim, but it is that we acknowledge and humble ourselves unto our creator knowing that only he knows best and that we are totally reliant upon him. You can argue all you want with people about faith and belief as you have been doing for many years now but it will not get rid of the void, guilt and absence from your heart unless ad until you believe.

You will just continue "arguing" and debating with people your entire life until death overcomes you. Then it will not be you who has won but your enemy shaythan. This is shaythan greatest aim to mae sure we die without believing in God or associate partners unto him.

Many atheists and those without belief come to forums and argue and debate with people because they know they are not satisfied with what they believe so they argue and debate with people of belief to try and some how justify their beliefs and to fill in the emptiness and void within their hearts but no that they will never be satisfied and never will their emptiness and void be filled with anything other than the belief of God and total submission unto him.

Please watch the following video which is very relevant to your situation:

From strong Atheist to Islam:



From Islam to Atheism Then Back to Islam



Muslim who turned to be atheist and back to Islam

[Kazu]

There is always a correlation of thinking with those who have lost faith and those who are losing it - they blame God for things that have gone wrong in their lives. Instead of considering there is a divine wisdom behind it and actually many people after having gone through such experiences always come out at the end accepting there was a profound wisdom behind it all. But those people who after going through any type of trial, hardship and adversity become weak and succumb to the whispers of shaythan and their desires and start blaming God for what they are going through. As I have stated before and I will state again that such people have deficiencies in their heart that just grew as time and experiences went on. Allah knows you better than you know yourself and he is aware of the blame you put on him for the experiences you have gone through in life.

Wow. You just don't get it do you? Reading your reply, you're a really really religious guy. You put your utmost faith in Allah. I salute this

Secularism is the religion for those without a religion. Secularism breeds nasty politics. Dividing people into left and right, conservative, liberal, republicans etc. When actually they are all essentially the same, just different sides of the same coin. They use media propaganda to put fear into society as they see it as the best way of controlling it. Hence why they use the "divide and conquer" rule. They care not about the people - you and me do not matter to them. We are just pawns. This is your secular system that you support. A system only in it for the elite. A system full of liars. They commit the worse atrocities known to mankind and then people like you have the audacity to blame their terrible crimes on God. Shame on those people.

You do know Islam gave rise to many different sects and madhabs, they conquer, divide, and rule. Not much different from secularism eh? Sure madhabs is not in the quran or hadeeth but Islam's direct impact on the society did gave rise to this. Even as muslims under quran, they hate each other, they kill each other, all because of these different sects. I'm one example of its victim. Then the muslims will just throw in "this is the shayateens.." it sounds so much like a big cop-out. I left Islam but Islam won't just leave me alone. So much for prochoice the moderate muslims keep supporting. When a system is a success (ofcourse its gonna have some flaws in it, but insignificant), then you will thank and continue to support this system. But when it doesn't, you'll say it's just failure big time although the system can still be improved but with great efforts.

And yes, I do get emotional when things doesn't go my way, if I don't admit this then I'm a liar. Who doesn't get emotional? But intellectually speaking, I don't make it an argument to somehow add up to my list of why religion is not true because this doesn't correlates with who I am/because how it makes me feel. That's a different story.

And the rest of your points... I'm not trying to convince you AT ALL into joining my 'secularism'/agnosticism/atheism, or whatever it is. So I don't want you to feel threatened, but I believe you don't feel it at all, after all I'm the one who's lost here, and I believe your faith is very strong to be shaken by the likes of me. All I'm trying to achieve here is to get you on the same page as me before trying to get into discussing islam at all. I watched a youtube video on Sheikh Ahmad Deedat lecture, I don't remember which, but he said this "atheism/agnosticism is the first step to Islam, because 'La ila ha illallah' There is no god, but Allah" . But intellectually speaking, you already equate 'Islam' being 'the neutral state' but Sheikh Ahmad Deedat believed agnosticism/atheism is the 'neutral state' so intellectually speaking this isn't a good tactic to engage in discussion with non-muslims. This is what I'm trying to get at. I hope you'll understand.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Kazu; I hope you are well,

but in the back of my head, there are just some things I can't ignore.

Now are these thoughts in your head, because you put them there? Or would it make more sense, that Allah wants you to keep searching, so Allah has planted these seeds in your mind in ways that are difficult to ignore.

Now 2 years after finishing my studies, I wanted to address these questions I had and as usual, at first I'm feeling this guilt again, it's just a natural reaction because I'm leaving something I've held in my heart all of my life.

I have heard these feelings described not so much as guilt, but rather as your life feeling incomplete. Everyone has a 'God Hole in their heart'. If you try filling this hole with money, relationships, possessions, jobs, etc, the God hole remains empty, and life seems to lack meaning. You can only fill this gap with Allah.

You come across as a caring person, who is passionate about justice, compassion and kindness. If you study the 99 names of Allah and reflect on their meaning, this might help you in your search.

May you be blessed and be a blessing to those you love and care for.

Eric

[Hamza Asadullah]

You do know Islam gave rise to many different sects and madhabs, they conquer, divide, and rule. Not much different from secularism eh? Sure madhabs is not in the quran or hadeeth but Islam's direct impact on the society did gave rise to this. Even as muslims under quran, they hate each other, they kill each other, all because of these different sects. I'm one example of its victim. Then the muslims will just throw in "this is the shayateens.." it sounds so much like a big cop-out. I left Islam but Islam won't just leave me alone. So much for prochoice the moderate muslims keep supporting. When a system is a success (ofcourse its gonna have some flaws in it, but insignificant), then you will thank and continue to support this system. But when it doesn't, you'll say it's just failure big time although the system can still be improved but with great efforts.

I was actually in the process of editing my thread when you replied and have included some very relevant videos for you to watch at the end of my last post.

Firstly Kazu my posts are not to show my religiosity or unshaken belief. It is to try and convince you to tackle the root of your problem in order to get your imaan back and to show you that Islam is the true way and only way for you to get rid of your feelings of being lost, confused and the emptiness and void that you have in your life.

It is clear in your statement that you do not have adequate understand of what a Madhab is. Madhabs do not "split" or "divide" people like sects do. In fact a Madhab is just an understanding and a path through the Qur'an and Sunnah from slightly different angles. This shows the wonders of human intelligence in that Allah has enabled us to think rationally and in slightly different angles but at the same time in acceptable ways. With regards to sects then there are only two main sects in Islam, Sunni being the majority and Shia the minority. Any other so called "sect" is rejected as being non Muslim. As oppose to other religions like Christianity for example which have many tens of sects and denominations all differing from their fundamental beliefs.

But Allah calls upon Muslims to unite and not disunite or split apart:

And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided. (3;103)

If people are hating and killing each other then this is clear evil that they are committing with their own hands which they will be accountable for. People do not just kill one another for religious reasons but for all kinds of reasons like nationalism, political and many many others.

Which system are you referring to is a "success?

And yes, I do get emotional when things doesn't go my way, if I don't admit this then I'm a liar. Who doesn't get emotional? But intellectually speaking, I don't make it an argument to somehow add up to my list of why religion is not true because this doesn't correlates with who I am/because how it makes me feel. That's a different story.

We all vent when we are angry but why should we vent our anger, bitterness and hatred towards our creator for things we perceive have gone wrong in our lives and in the world? You have clearly made statements referring to your anger towards God for bad things that have happened in your life and in the world and that you found "flaws" in Gods wisdom in Islamic teachings as to the main reasons why you left Islam.

So your reasons for having left the belief in God and in Islam are merely based upon your emotions and not in a rational or logical sense at all.

And the rest of your points... I'm not trying to convince you AT ALL into joining my 'secularism'/agnosticism/atheism, or whatever it is. So I don't want you to feel threatened, but I believe you don't feel it at all, after all I'm the one who's lost here, and I believe your faith is very strong to be shaken by the likes of me. All I'm trying to achieve here is to get you on the same page as me before trying to get into discussing islam at all. I watched a youtube video on Sheikh Ahmad Deedat lecture, I don't remember which, but he said this "atheism/agnosticism is the first step to Islam, because 'La ila ha illallah' There is no god, but Allah" . But intellectually speaking, you already equate 'Islam' being 'the neutral state' but Sheikh Ahmad Deedat believed agnosticism/atheism is the 'neutral state' so intellectually speaking this isn't a good tactic to engage in discussion with non-muslims. This is what I'm trying to get at. I hope you'll understand.

I never said once you are trying to convince me or anyone else, but you are here trying to convince and justify your lack of belief to yourself. Kazu I believe you can believe again just like many people who go out of Islam and they come back again but this time you need to tackle the root of the problems head on and ensure they never arise again. I believe the root of the problems were always there but due to some experiences they were allowed to flourish and unfortunately caused you to lose your imaan.

Kazu I get where you are in your beliefs but I am trying to get you to where you were before when you were a Muslim and where we are as Muslims. Also know that a true Muslim will always equate Islam as to the "only way". Therefore no Muslim can be at your "neutral" point. In fact no follower of a organised religion can be at your neutral point. Only someone with no faith can be where you are.

Kazu you have spent so long trying to convince people to be "where you are". But you cannot expect other people to be confused in belief like you are. None of us can guide you. We can only advise you and ask God to guide you. Guidance is only in his hands. You can continue going from forum to forum arguing and discussing your lack of belief with people after people but you will never progress or eradicate your problems if you do not tackle the root of your problems first.

What the Sheikh was referring to is that it is a good starting point with atheists/agnostics to be at a point where we all believe "There is no God" and the rest is to convince such people to believe in the second part of the Shahada "...except Allah", and to then convince them of the revelation and guidance of God unto mankind and in his last Messenger.

[Kazu]

Now are these thoughts in your head, because you put them there? Or would it make more sense, that Allah wants you to keep searching, so Allah has planted these seeds in your mind in ways that are difficult to ignore.

Greetings..peace be upon you.

I wondered about that. But it can also be a natural reaction to it because you're letting go something you've hold on for a long time. This is just one possibility. For example, I'm used to eating chicken but one day my mother forbids me doing so because she wants me to go vegan. Of course I'll be like NO. But she keeps insisting and I say yeah I'll do it. It'll feel really weird not eating chicken on a daily basis, and this I relate with my situation. This is just a possibility.

I have heard these feelings described not so much as guilt, but rather as your life feeling incomplete. Everyone has a 'God Hole in their heart'. If you try filling this hole with money, relationships, possessions, jobs, etc, the God hole remains empty, and life seems to lack meaning. You can only fill this gap with Allah.

Yes, surprisingly, I do agree with you. The human mind will always wonder and be amazed by the unknown. Humans will always want to believe in something greater, superstitious being, that's looking down on everyone/to keep records/to manage, this world. Because humans by nature are helpless creatures on their own, they need other people to support each other, and this case with God, is the particular being that will always care about what you do and give guidance wherever,whoever you are. Who wouldn't want such a being to exist? This is what I call 'The God Void'. Humans don't want to be left alone hopeless and helpless, even in presence of people one can even feel so alone. I'll give an example, it is my very core of nature to have a companion/need/lust/love/dependency for a partner, but however much I invest effort in search for one, in keeping the relationship, improving myself, even crying and waiting for days, he'll not be here for me. But if I keep on and changing my strategy, maybe there's one for me one lucky day. But, maybe I can't get one in this life, maybe I'll die young. I can only keep dreaming on getting my partner. The 'Human Love Void' will not be filled and my life lacks meaning forever. Lets pretend He does exist, but I'll die young without knowing he existed.

- - - Updated - - -

Therefore no Muslim can be at your "neutral" point

Yes you can't. But you can understand it at least.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Yes you can't. But you can understand it at least.

Kazu no one with firm faith who remains firm on that faith will ever know what it feels like to be in disbelief. May Allah never put any of us in such a situation.

Your "neutral point" is our disbelief. So how can you expect a Muslim or anyone with firm faith understand disbelief? Unless they have been where you are now. But even then no one can convince you of anything or change your heart or guide you to imaan except that they can give you their advice's as we have done.

I hope you can ponder and reflect over our advice's to you in this thread. I wish you all the best and I pray that Allah guides you to Imaan and enables you to eradicate the root of your problems so that disbelief never returns to your heart again. Ameen

All the best

[Kazu]

Kazu no one with firm faith who remains firm on that faith will ever know what it feels like to be in disbelief. May Allah never put any of us in such a situation.

Your "neutral point" is our disbelief. So how can you expect a Muslim or anyone with firm faith understand disbelief? Unless they have been where you are now. But even then no one can convince you of anything or change your heart or guide you to imaan except that they can give you their advice's as we have done.

I hope you can ponder and reflect over our advice's to you in this thread. I wish you all the best and I pray that Allah guides you to Imaan and enables you to eradicate the root of your problems so that disbelief never returns to your heart again. Ameen

All the best

I expected this would be your reply. I understand you mean well. I won't say "muslims are so deluded because they believe in Allah and prophet that do this so and so..". It's just too easy to say "how can atheists believe in absurd theory multiverse?". It's just too easy to say "trinity just doesn't make sense,how can anyone in their sane mind believes this?" It's just too easy to say "how can hindu worship a cow?" , all without examining them and putting yourselves in their place first. This doesn't mean you should abandon your belief, but, just try to understand it why they believe what they believe. I once said to my friends "do you ever try to imagine being born non-muslim? And then would you convert to islam?" At this time I was a devout muslim. It's just a method for me to check if I'm a true believer or not. And they can't grasp this, how can they do this while being a muslim, they say.

After my apostasy, I met a guy online who had just converted to islam from christianity, we chatted with this one islamic apologist who keeps spamming me quran quotes, linking me the context, and explaining them at the same time. Then this newly converted guy pm-ed me "he can keep spamming all he wants, but I know it won't help you" He understood me. We became friends. We understood each other why we're at where we at. I have so much respect for him.

[STN]

@Kazu :sl:

I hope you read my post with some thought and not skim over it. Because i just had an epiphany, a realization after reading the first page completely and skimming through the rest of the thread and i realized there is one problem atheists, agnostics, disbelievers have and there is NO WAY they can ever believe if they hold on to that problem, that thinking. I believe this is Shaytaan's trick or maybe just human's stupidity or both but arguing with few atheists now, i see this problem and it is in you.

Are you still reading me?

I can write and write and write about how with complete certainty Allah exists and Prophet Mohammad(SAWW) the last messenger, SubhanAllah everything screams of Allah's existence and as i learn more about the world, my faith becomes stronger and stronger, May Allah keep increasing my faith.

But sister, it will not have an effect on you...not an atom's worth.

I can refute your argument with so much logic that you will stupid but then you will come up with another argument and i will do the same and so on and so forth. This is not going to have an effect on you.

You know why all of this is futile? It's for one simple reason

These are my words, a human's words. I can't convince someone to give me a 100 dollar donation even if my life depended on it, how in the hell will i convince someone to have faith.

And that's when i realized what the solution is.

Read the Holy Quran WITH UNDERSTANDING

I have not seen a single atheist attempt to refute Holy Quran. Why not? WHY is it so difficult to find one contradiction in a book revealed in 600AD era to an illiterate man Prophet Mohammad (SAWW) in an era of ignorance.

Science has advanced so much, why is this book still superior to science?

How is it still preserved.

How is everything it said being confirmed to be accurate with today's science (embryology, astronomy, m theory, multiverses, - http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links )

Why hasn't there been another book created that is similar to this one? You know how many years, era, civilizations have passed from 7th century to 2017 ? How many enemies of Islams have died who tried their best?

You know i am a born Muslim الحمد لله and i have been practicing as a kid then not so much and you know what brought me back to Islam ? The Holy Quran and of course Allah's guidance, someone showed me a video how Holy Quran describes black holes, i was shocked.

All reading isn't the same, you must have just recited the words when your heart was being swayed by Kufar...that isn't going to do you any good. Read WITH UNDERSTANDING

Read tafsir of Ayats and the full context of it.


But like i said, my words aren't going to have any effect.

It's pathetic honestly, every atheist says oh i am looking for the truth but they will not read the Holy Quran or even try to refute it. Go and do it, try to understand and then refute it if you can. You will fail miserably and scream لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله because Holy Quran is a miracle and it is from Allah.

But nope, the atheists love to argue...big bang bla bla. Right, explain Holy Quran to me. Leave the universe you geniuses, explain this book to me that is right in front of you!, explain it if you can.

Nope, big bang bla bla, monkeys to humans so how come the bacteria and fungi and virus (especially HIV) who evolve in a matter of seconds never evolved to a human? or something else? Like from Adam(A.S) to 2017, bacteria have been evolving, their evolution isn't slow like ours...it's rapid (ever heard of drug resistance?) so how come they haven't evolved to something else in all this time? The Shaytaan says to atheist oh ----, this guy knows his ----...lets switch to another stupid argument

the big bang bla bla

Honestly, this is all they have to go on. And you know why this works so well for them ? Because it is in past and they know nobody can prove or refute it with science.

-----------------------

I am still going to answer somethings in your question that i also thought about and then as i grew up, i answered for myself.

How hard is it to believe in Allah ? لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله Are these words so hard ? But of course to an oppressor and kafir, these are. Think about this, you are blindly believing a man's blabber of atheism about big bang, about evolution but you are denying the Creator Allah who is worthy of ALL PRAISE and you don't even acknowledge Him (Nauzbillah). What has men left you? And what has Allah (SWT) left you? The Holy Quran - a miracle of miracles yet you deny it without even researching it.

You deny it without even researching it, if that is not an unjustice of the extreme kind then i don't know what is. It is an oppression on your soul and why? Have you tried to explain how Holy Quran is still existing, have you thought about it and tried to understand it ? I know you haven't. You will spend more time and effort on useless worldly things.

If i create something (and i or any human isn't able to) but suppose i did and it tried to do whatever it came to its mind, you know what i would do ? Smash it into so many pieces. Ponder upon this, your deviant behavior and attitude, has anything happened to you ? NO Allah (SWT) is still giving and giving and giving until there will come a time when He will ask you and that's Judgement Day.

Other members explained martyrdom for people unjustly died and oh what a great rank and status that is. May Allah grant me martyrdom, Ameen.

Oh in the end, you are very wrong about muslims blindly following Islam. I wasn't a practicing Muslim until i turned 28, nobody forced me to, i wish it had been sooner, i was i was practicing since the day i first gained consciousness.

My advice to you is go and look in the world. Go and wander in the earth, visit places, look at the stars and the sky. Sit in a place for 30 minutes and ponder about the world, can you find it in yourself to believe that this majestic universe came into existence by itself?

- - - Updated - - -

@Kazu :sl:

I hope you read my post with some thought and not skim over it. Because i just had an epiphany, a realization after reading the first page completely and skimming through the rest of the thread and i realized there is one problem atheists, agnostics, disbelievers have and there is NO WAY they can ever believe if they hold on to that problem, that thinking. I believe this is Shaytaan's trick or maybe just human's stupidity or both but arguing with few atheists now, i see this problem and it is in you.

Are you still reading me?

I can write and write and write about how with complete certainty Allah exists and Prophet Mohammad(SAWW) the last messenger, SubhanAllah everything screams of Allah's existence and as i learn more about the world, my faith becomes stronger and stronger, May Allah keep increasing my faith.

But sister, it will not have an effect on you...not an atom's worth.

I can refute your argument with so much logic that you will stupid but then you will come up with another argument and i will do the same and so on and so forth. This is not going to have an effect on you.

You know why all of this is futile? It's for one simple reason

These are my words, a human's words. I can't convince someone to give me a 100 dollar donation even if my life depended on it, how in the hell will i convince someone to have faith.

And that's when i realized what the solution is.

Read the Holy Quran WITH UNDERSTANDING

I have not seen a single atheist attempt to refute Holy Quran. Why not? WHY is it so difficult to find one contradiction in a book revealed in 600AD era to an illiterate man Prophet Mohammad (SAWW) in an era of ignorance.

Science has advanced so much, why is this book still superior to science?

How is it still preserved.

How is everything it said being confirmed to be accurate with today's science (embryology, astronomy, m theory, multiverses, - http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links )

Why hasn't there been another book created that is similar to this one? You know how many years, era, civilizations have passed from 7th century to 2017 ? How many enemies of Islams have died who tried their best?

You know i am a born Muslim الحمد لله and i have been practicing as a kid then not so much and you know what brought me back to Islam ? The Holy Quran and of course Allah's guidance, someone showed me a video how Holy Quran describes black holes, i was shocked.

All reading isn't the same, you must have just recited the words when your heart was being swayed by Kufar...that isn't going to do you any good. Read WITH UNDERSTANDING

Read tafsir of Ayats and the full context of it.


But like i said, my words aren't going to have any effect.

It's pathetic honestly, every atheist says oh i am looking for the truth but they will not read the Holy Quran or even try to refute it. Go and do it, try to understand and then refute it if you can. You will fail miserably and scream لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله because Holy Quran is a miracle and it is from Allah.

But nope, the atheists love to argue...big bang bla bla. Right, explain Holy Quran to me. Leave the universe you geniuses, explain this book to me that is right in front of you!, explain it if you can.

Nope, big bang bla bla, monkeys to humans so how come the bacteria and fungi and virus (especially HIV) who evolve in a matter of seconds never evolved to a human? or something else? Like from Adam(A.S) to 2017, bacteria have been evolving, their evolution isn't slow like ours...it's rapid (ever heard of drug resistance?) so how come they haven't evolved to something else in all this time? The Shaytaan says to atheist oh ----, this guy knows his ----...lets switch to another stupid argument

the big bang bla bla

Honestly, this is all they have to go on. And you know why this works so well for them ? Because it is in past and they know nobody can prove or refute it with science.

-----------------------

I am still going to answer somethings in your question that i also thought about and then as i grew up, i answered for myself.

How hard is it to believe in Allah ? لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله Are these words so hard ? But of course to an oppressor and kafir, these are. Think about this, you are blindly believing a man's blabber of atheism about big bang, about evolution but you are denying the Creator Allah who is worthy of ALL PRAISE and you don't even acknowledge Him (Nauzbillah). What has men left you? And what has Allah (SWT) left you? The Holy Quran - a miracle of miracles yet you deny it without even researching it.

You deny it without even researching it, if that is not an unjustice of the extreme kind then i don't know what is. It is an oppression on your soul and why? Have you tried to explain how Holy Quran is still existing, have you thought about it and tried to understand it ? I know you haven't. You will spend more time and effort on useless worldly things.

If i create something (and i or any human isn't able to) but suppose i did and it tried to do whatever it came to its mind, you know what i would do ? Smash it into so many pieces. Ponder upon this, your deviant behavior and attitude, has anything happened to you ? NO Allah (SWT) is still giving and giving and giving until there will come a time when He will ask you and that's Judgement Day.

Other members explained martyrdom for people unjustly died and oh what a great rank and status that is. May Allah grant me martyrdom, Ameen.

Oh in the end, you are very wrong about muslims blindly following Islam. I wasn't a practicing Muslim until i turned 28, nobody forced me to, i wish it had been sooner, i was i was practicing since the day i first gained consciousness.

My advice to you is go and look in the world. Go and wander in the earth, visit places, look at the stars and the sky. Sit in a place for 30 minutes and ponder about the world, can you find it in yourself to believe that this majestic universe came into existence by itself?

- - - Updated - - -

Some parts of my post got double posted, wish there was an ability to edit posts

[Hamza Asadullah]

I expected this would be your reply. I understand you mean well. I won't say "muslims are so deluded because they believe in Allah and prophet that do this so and so..". It's just too easy to say "how can atheists believe in absurd theory multiverse?". It's just too easy to say "trinity just doesn't make sense,how can anyone in their sane mind believes this?" It's just too easy to say "how can hindu worship a cow?" , all without examining them and putting yourselves in their place first. This doesn't mean you should abandon your belief, but, just try to understand it why they believe what they believe. I once said to my friends "do you ever try to imagine being born non-muslim? And then would you convert to islam?" At this time I was a devout muslim. It's just a method for me to check if I'm a true believer or not. And they can't grasp this, how can they do this while being a muslim, they say.

After my apostasy, I met a guy online who had just converted to islam from christianity, we chatted with this one islamic apologist who keeps spamming me quran quotes, linking me the context, and explaining them at the same time. Then this newly converted guy pm-ed me "he can keep spamming all he wants, but I know it won't help you" He understood me. We became friends. We understood each other why we're at where we at. I have so much respect for him.

It's as if your saying that Muslims don't "understand" other beliefs hence why they are so firm in believing what they do. Is it not possible to "understand" a belief and reject it just as you "understood" and have rejected? Are you seriously saying that all "born" Muslims have never doubted their faith hence never looked into other beliefs and faiths before solidifying their own beliefs? That is certainly not the case. I can say for certain that many Muslims look into other faiths and beliefs before coming to the conclusion that Islam is without doubt the truth.

Why do more people than any other faith or belief (or lack of belief) revert to Islam? Many of them have come from Hinduism, mostly from Christianity, Buddhism and many also from Atheism/agnosticism/deism. They "fully" understood disbelief and aspects of disbelief in what you mentioned ie Trinity, pantheism, reincarnation, atheistic/deistic beliefs but they found the truth in Islam.

Now you could say that you left Islam for whatever reason because you disbelieved in aspects of it. But clearly by your own words you are not satisfied with your current beliefs and that is why you claim you are here. You talk of "guilt" and feeling that you want to believe, go to heaven etc.

So I do not understand what else you are looking for? Will you continue the cycle of going from forum to forum and debating with one person after another in endless to and froms which will be of no avail?

As I keep saying to you that if you really want to "believe" again then you must get to the root of your problems deep in your heart as to why you disbelieve and what is it that in your heart that is rejecting belief in Allah and his divine wisdom. Otherwise you will continue in this cycle of guilt, emptiness and a void in your heart.

We cannot guide you to imaan but we can advise you as we have done as to what steps to take to find imaan. If you say Muslims should get to your "neutral" point which is disbelief then this will never happen because we are and always will be firm in our beliefs. But we have tried our best to try and make you see sense. But we cannot unseal anyone's heart.

Only you can make the necessary effort to find belief by opening your heart in terms of totally submitting your will to Allah like you did before and accepting his divine wisdom. If you are not willing to do that then I really do not know what else you are looking for.

[Patrick84]

The three monotheistic faiths spread across different parts of the world, all claiming one message, and that to submit to the one God. Some of them even confirming each others scriptures - surely there is some sort of truth ther?

So criminals murders rapists etc who have never been brought to justice that are roaming the earth, will just be let off scott free? They will just die and not be brought to justice? Should we all begin living like animals then? How do we then define what is right and wrong? Is it just plain human instincts, morals and values? Why can I just not go around and sleep with anyone and spread my STIs, cause corruption in the land, rip people off, steal, make millions of dollars, secretly kill and burn people I don't like and not get caught.



What's going to happen to me? absolutely nothing? Gosh, this sounds too good to be true. I guess we only live once, so make the most of it yeah?


Remember, it is about faith, imaan, believing in the unseen. We all have doubts about our faith whether be it very small amount - but this is what faith is, there are peaks and troughs, this is the challenge, the inner struggle we all go through.


Sure, maybe according to you nothing will happen - we may not come before God on the day of Judgement - lets say this is very much possible.


But what also is very much possible, something billions of people across the world claim to have have some sort of "evidence" of, is that we may come before God. So what would you rather do? I know what I would do, and that is cover my bases, and believe in the unseen.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Kazu;

For example, I'm used to eating chicken but one day my mother forbids me doing so because she wants me to go vegan. Of course I'll be like NO. But she keeps insisting and I say yeah I'll do it. It'll feel really weird not eating chicken on a daily basis, and this I relate with my situation. This is just a possibility.

You could turn into a secret chicken eater, and eat as much chicken as you like. You could find your ideal spouse and be happily married with children for years. You could find your ideal career on a 100k. But I believe you will still have the need to search for your creator.

If you want to find Allah, you have to do something......................................... .......?

May Allah bless you, and those you love and care for.

Eric

[Kazu]

Greetings,

You could turn into a secret chicken eater, and eat as much chicken as you like.

That's the point. I can keep coming back to eating chicken if I want to. But I gotta do what I gotta do because of some reasons.

You could find your ideal spouse and be happily married with children for years. You could find your ideal career on a 100k.

Who can guarantee?

But I believe you will still have the need to search for your creator.

If you want to find Allah, you have to do something......................................... .......?

On what basis? Not eating chicken doesn't mean I have a chicken void. It's just something I get used to.
I can search for god all I want but if he doesn't exist, whats the point?
You're claiming something exist so it's your burden to prove it.

May Allah bless you, and those you love and care for.

Eric

Bless you.

[Kazu]

@Kazu :sl:

I hope you read my post with some thought and not skim over it. Because i just had an epiphany, a realization after reading the first page completely and skimming through the rest of the thread and i realized there is one problem atheists, agnostics, disbelievers have and there is NO WAY they can ever believe if they hold on to that problem, that thinking. I believe this is Shaytaan's trick or maybe just human's stupidity or both but arguing with few atheists now, i see this problem and it is in you.

Are you still reading me?

I can write and write and write about how with complete certainty Allah exists and Prophet Mohammad(SAWW) the last messenger, SubhanAllah everything screams of Allah's existence and as i learn more about the world, my faith becomes stronger and stronger, May Allah keep increasing my faith.

But sister, it will not have an effect on you...not an atom's worth.

I can refute your argument with so much logic that you will stupid but then you will come up with another argument and i will do the same and so on and so forth. This is not going to have an effect on you.

You know why all of this is futile? It's for one simple reason

These are my words, a human's words. I can't convince someone to give me a 100 dollar donation even if my life depended on it, how in the hell will i convince someone to have faith.

And that's when i realized what the solution is.

Read the Holy Quran WITH UNDERSTANDING

I have not seen a single atheist attempt to refute Holy Quran. Why not? WHY is it so difficult to find one contradiction in a book revealed in 600AD era to an illiterate man Prophet Mohammad (SAWW) in an era of ignorance.

Science has advanced so much, why is this book still superior to science?

How is it still preserved.

How is everything it said being confirmed to be accurate with today's science (embryology, astronomy, m theory, multiverses, - http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links )

Why hasn't there been another book created that is similar to this one? You know how many years, era, civilizations have passed from 7th century to 2017 ? How many enemies of Islams have died who tried their best?

You know i am a born Muslim الحمد لله and i have been practicing as a kid then not so much and you know what brought me back to Islam ? The Holy Quran and of course Allah's guidance, someone showed me a video how Holy Quran describes black holes, i was shocked.

All reading isn't the same, you must have just recited the words when your heart was being swayed by Kufar...that isn't going to do you any good. Read WITH UNDERSTANDING

Read tafsir of Ayats and the full context of it.


But like i said, my words aren't going to have any effect.

It's pathetic honestly, every atheist says oh i am looking for the truth but they will not read the Holy Quran or even try to refute it. Go and do it, try to understand and then refute it if you can. You will fail miserably and scream لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله because Holy Quran is a miracle and it is from Allah.

But nope, the atheists love to argue...big bang bla bla. Right, explain Holy Quran to me. Leave the universe you geniuses, explain this book to me that is right in front of you!, explain it if you can.

Nope, big bang bla bla, monkeys to humans so how come the bacteria and fungi and virus (especially HIV) who evolve in a matter of seconds never evolved to a human? or something else? Like from Adam(A.S) to 2017, bacteria have been evolving, their evolution isn't slow like ours...it's rapid (ever heard of drug resistance?) so how come they haven't evolved to something else in all this time? The Shaytaan says to atheist oh ----, this guy knows his ----...lets switch to another stupid argument

the big bang bla bla

Honestly, this is all they have to go on. And you know why this works so well for them ? Because it is in past and they know nobody can prove or refute it with science.

-----------------------

I am still going to answer somethings in your question that i also thought about and then as i grew up, i answered for myself.

How hard is it to believe in Allah ? لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله Are these words so hard ? But of course to an oppressor and kafir, these are. Think about this, you are blindly believing a man's blabber of atheism about big bang, about evolution but you are denying the Creator Allah who is worthy of ALL PRAISE and you don't even acknowledge Him (Nauzbillah). What has men left you? And what has Allah (SWT) left you? The Holy Quran - a miracle of miracles yet you deny it without even researching it.

You deny it without even researching it, if that is not an unjustice of the extreme kind then i don't know what is. It is an oppression on your soul and why? Have you tried to explain how Holy Quran is still existing, have you thought about it and tried to understand it ? I know you haven't. You will spend more time and effort on useless worldly things.

If i create something (and i or any human isn't able to) but suppose i did and it tried to do whatever it came to its mind, you know what i would do ? Smash it into so many pieces. Ponder upon this, your deviant behavior and attitude, has anything happened to you ? NO Allah (SWT) is still giving and giving and giving until there will come a time when He will ask you and that's Judgement Day.

Other members explained martyrdom for people unjustly died and oh what a great rank and status that is. May Allah grant me martyrdom, Ameen.

Oh in the end, you are very wrong about muslims blindly following Islam. I wasn't a practicing Muslim until i turned 28, nobody forced me to, i wish it had been sooner, i was i was practicing since the day i first gained consciousness.

My advice to you is go and look in the world. Go and wander in the earth, visit places, look at the stars and the sky. Sit in a place for 30 minutes and ponder about the world, can you find it in yourself to believe that this majestic universe came into existence by itself?

- - - Updated - - -

@Kazu :sl:

I hope you read my post with some thought and not skim over it. Because i just had an epiphany, a realization after reading the first page completely and skimming through the rest of the thread and i realized there is one problem atheists, agnostics, disbelievers have and there is NO WAY they can ever believe if they hold on to that problem, that thinking. I believe this is Shaytaan's trick or maybe just human's stupidity or both but arguing with few atheists now, i see this problem and it is in you.

Are you still reading me?

I can write and write and write about how with complete certainty Allah exists and Prophet Mohammad(SAWW) the last messenger, SubhanAllah everything screams of Allah's existence and as i learn more about the world, my faith becomes stronger and stronger, May Allah keep increasing my faith.

But sister, it will not have an effect on you...not an atom's worth.

I can refute your argument with so much logic that you will stupid but then you will come up with another argument and i will do the same and so on and so forth. This is not going to have an effect on you.

You know why all of this is futile? It's for one simple reason

These are my words, a human's words. I can't convince someone to give me a 100 dollar donation even if my life depended on it, how in the hell will i convince someone to have faith.

And that's when i realized what the solution is.

Read the Holy Quran WITH UNDERSTANDING

I have not seen a single atheist attempt to refute Holy Quran. Why not? WHY is it so difficult to find one contradiction in a book revealed in 600AD era to an illiterate man Prophet Mohammad (SAWW) in an era of ignorance.

Science has advanced so much, why is this book still superior to science?

How is it still preserved.

How is everything it said being confirmed to be accurate with today's science (embryology, astronomy, m theory, multiverses, - http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links )

Why hasn't there been another book created that is similar to this one? You know how many years, era, civilizations have passed from 7th century to 2017 ? How many enemies of Islams have died who tried their best?

You know i am a born Muslim الحمد لله and i have been practicing as a kid then not so much and you know what brought me back to Islam ? The Holy Quran and of course Allah's guidance, someone showed me a video how Holy Quran describes black holes, i was shocked.

All reading isn't the same, you must have just recited the words when your heart was being swayed by Kufar...that isn't going to do you any good. Read WITH UNDERSTANDING

Read tafsir of Ayats and the full context of it.


But like i said, my words aren't going to have any effect.

It's pathetic honestly, every atheist says oh i am looking for the truth but they will not read the Holy Quran or even try to refute it. Go and do it, try to understand and then refute it if you can. You will fail miserably and scream لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله because Holy Quran is a miracle and it is from Allah.

But nope, the atheists love to argue...big bang bla bla. Right, explain Holy Quran to me. Leave the universe you geniuses, explain this book to me that is right in front of you!, explain it if you can.

Nope, big bang bla bla, monkeys to humans so how come the bacteria and fungi and virus (especially HIV) who evolve in a matter of seconds never evolved to a human? or something else? Like from Adam(A.S) to 2017, bacteria have been evolving, their evolution isn't slow like ours...it's rapid (ever heard of drug resistance?) so how come they haven't evolved to something else in all this time? The Shaytaan says to atheist oh ----, this guy knows his ----...lets switch to another stupid argument

the big bang bla bla

Honestly, this is all they have to go on. And you know why this works so well for them ? Because it is in past and they know nobody can prove or refute it with science.

-----------------------

I am still going to answer somethings in your question that i also thought about and then as i grew up, i answered for myself.

How hard is it to believe in Allah ? لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا ٱلله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ ٱلله Are these words so hard ? But of course to an oppressor and kafir, these are. Think about this, you are blindly believing a man's blabber of atheism about big bang, about evolution but you are denying the Creator Allah who is worthy of ALL PRAISE and you don't even acknowledge Him (Nauzbillah). What has men left you? And what has Allah (SWT) left you? The Holy Quran - a miracle of miracles yet you deny it without even researching it.

You deny it without even researching it, if that is not an unjustice of the extreme kind then i don't know what is. It is an oppression on your soul and why? Have you tried to explain how Holy Quran is still existing, have you thought about it and tried to understand it ? I know you haven't. You will spend more time and effort on useless worldly things.

If i create something (and i or any human isn't able to) but suppose i did and it tried to do whatever it came to its mind, you know what i would do ? Smash it into so many pieces. Ponder upon this, your deviant behavior and attitude, has anything happened to you ? NO Allah (SWT) is still giving and giving and giving until there will come a time when He will ask you and that's Judgement Day.

Other members explained martyrdom for people unjustly died and oh what a great rank and status that is. May Allah grant me martyrdom, Ameen.

Oh in the end, you are very wrong about muslims blindly following Islam. I wasn't a practicing Muslim until i turned 28, nobody forced me to, i wish it had been sooner, i was i was practicing since the day i first gained consciousness.

My advice to you is go and look in the world. Go and wander in the earth, visit places, look at the stars and the sky. Sit in a place for 30 minutes and ponder about the world, can you find it in yourself to believe that this majestic universe came into existence by itself?

- - - Updated - - -

Some parts of my post got double posted, wish there was an ability to edit posts

Greetings.. I understand you mean really really well. I'm very thankful for that.

But, I could say the same thing to you. I admit I haven't read the quran's translation fully yet (I have read it in arabic fully many times before) but yes I have read only a part of the translation and I found some errors (at least in my position as an agnostic where I don't claim something exist). Yes I have read the quran translation with understanding to the point I'm crying and crying while reading it because of God's compassion in these scripture, the beauty of the quran, this is what Allah wants for me. I admit I don't fully have the knowledge as the atheists in these youtubes and sites like their monkeys, bigbangs, universe theory bla bla bla. I have soooo many daily commitments and I'm only in my early 20s, so I don't have enough time yet to know everything. I'm humble enough to say I don't know everything and I don't want to be arrogant to say 'God doesn't exist for a fact" because it's not. I don't know for a fact. You could say my religion is the 'Possibilities' religion. I'm not your typical atheist. I wouldn't be so arrogant to accept if god does exist. If I find enough reasons to believe in quran and allah, I will do it.

But you know what?

Even if I point out the 'supposedly' errors in the quran, you could come up with so many reasons to refute this. And if you point out the errors in my thinking, I could come up with so many reasons to refute it. What's the point? This is never-ending. You already have a preconceived believe in islam so I can't go everywhere you go but at least I can understand where you're coming from. But you can't understand where I'm coming from because in your thinking me as a kuffar already have this disease in my heart. I understand why you believe what you believe. If I'm a muslim, of course I'm going to believe what you believe because it's going to make the most sense to me. How am I supposed to believe in shaytaans' effect on me if I'm not a believer in the first place?

To clarify my position, what I'm doing is not trying to convince anyone in this forum to join my club. But all I'm trying to do is trying to get people on the same page of me (at least just understand it) before even discussing islam at all. My first post was long ago about few months back and I was in cognitive dissonance. And I came back this month after regaining my composure, looking in at nature, taking care my health and my relations with people, I am much calmer now. But I know if I found calm in being agnostic/atheist doesn't mean it's the definite real thing. Now I came back while in the state I have completely lost my faith in islam now. But you won't understand it because all these people advising me to go out in nature and ponder are all assuming I had think the certain way that Islam wants me to. What if the outcome of my pondering is different? People would just keep telling me to go ponder again and again until I reach your level. The real problem is if I live in an Islamic country, they won't let me have this freedom to think and just kill me instead. This is just one reason why islam in my thinking is probably not true because of it's direct impact.

[Kazu]

It's as if your saying that Muslims don't "understand" other beliefs hence why they are so firm in believing what they do.

Definitely not. What I'm saying is muslims don't 'understand' others' beliefs hence why they aren't able to reach/tackle the heart of these non-believers (while you can keep your belief firm at the same time.).

You need to tackle your own root of problem before if you want to reach out the hearts of these non-believers that you so believe have disease in it.

Is it not possible to "understand" a belief and reject it just as you "understood" and have rejected? Are you seriously saying that all "born" Muslims have never doubted their faith hence never looked into other beliefs and faiths before solidifying their own beliefs? That is certainly not the case. I can say for certain that many Muslims look into other faiths and beliefs before coming to the conclusion that Islam is without doubt the truth.

Yes exactly. My point is your point. I'm sorry what are you trying to get here?

Why do more people than any other faith or belief (or lack of belief) revert to Islam? Many of them have come from Hinduism, mostly from Christianity, Buddhism and many also from Atheism/agnosticism/deism.

You don't know the statistics. Neither do I. But our ex-muslim community is definitely growing.

They "fully" understood disbelief and aspects of disbelief in what you mentioned ie Trinity, pantheism, reincarnation, atheistic/deistic beliefs but they found the truth in Islam.

Exactly. My point is I have yet to come to that point.

And the rest of your points I already addressed in my replies to other posters.

Only you can make the necessary effort to find belief by opening your heart in terms of totally submitting your will to Allah like you did before

Hopefully.

[Kazu]

The three monotheistic faiths spread across different parts of the world, all claiming one message, and that to submit to the one God. Some of them even confirming each others scriptures - surely there is some sort of truth ther?

So criminals murders rapists etc who have never been brought to justice that are roaming the earth, will just be let off scott free? They will just die and not be brought to justice? Should we all begin living like animals then? How do we then define what is right and wrong? Is it just plain human instincts, morals and values? Why can I just not go around and sleep with anyone and spread my STIs, cause corruption in the land, rip people off, steal, make millions of dollars, secretly kill and burn people I don't like and not get caught.



What's going to happen to me? absolutely nothing? Gosh, this sounds too good to be true. I guess we only live once, so make the most of it yeah?

Greetings..
I already addressed this in my earlier posts

But what also is very much possible, something billions of people across the world claim to have have some sort of "evidence" of, is that we may come before God. So what would you rather do? I know what I would do, and that is cover my bases, and believe in the unseen.

I do too

[Hamza Asadullah]

To clarify my position, what I'm doing is not trying to convince anyone in this forum to join my club. But all I'm trying to do is trying to get people on the same page of me (at least just understand it) before even discussing islam at all. My first post was long ago about few months back and I was in cognitive dissonance. And I came back this month after regaining my composure, looking in at nature, taking care my health and my relations with people, I am much calmer now. But I know if I found calm in being agnostic/atheist doesn't mean it's the definite real thing. Now I came back while in the state I have completely lost my faith in islam now. But you won't understand it because all these people advising me to go out in nature and ponder are all assuming I had think the certain way that Islam wants me to. What if the outcome of my pondering is different? People would just keep telling me to go ponder again and again until I reach your level. The real problem is if I live in an Islamic country, they won't let me have this freedom to think and just kill me instead. This is just one reason why islam in my thinking is probably not true because of it's direct impact.

Kazu why is it that you feel the need to keep going forum to forum and face to face with Muslims about wanting them to "understand your disbelief" or be at your "neutral" point being disbelief? What will you gain out of that? Why can you not just get on with your life as you are now and let others get on with theirs? Why is it that you just cannot let it go?

Can you see now why certain apostates land themselves in trouble in certain countries because they feel the need for others to also disbelieve as they do. But know that whatever happens to apostates in other countries then you cannot blame Islam because of the actions of other people. There is no Shariah at present in this world for anyone to say "Islam did this". In a Shariah system people cannot take things into their own hands as everything is done in accordance with strict Islamic rules in a court.

You claim to not want others to "join" your club but then you are being reluctant that other Muslims should "understand your disbelief" and be at your "neutral point in disbelief", and when I asked you how this possible if they are firm believers and cannot possibly understand your disbelief, then you give contradictory statements. You are essentially saying that you want people with firm belief to "forcibly" put aside their firm beliefs in God and his commands and somehow feel disbelief, confusion, pain and disillusionment as you do. What will they gain out of that? Your just not making any sense. You claim to be "free" yet you are clearly more "trapped" than you have ever been.

Just like any other atheist/deist/agnostic your being very contradictory and confusing. You claim to want to feel faith again and to be in heaven with loved ones etc but then on the other hand you have rejected all advice for you to accept Imaan in God and in his divine wisdom, and instead you are constantly adamant to remain "firm" in your disbelief as well as being reluctant that others with firm belief in God and his commands also come to your point in disbelief. Then you talk about a "growing" number of apostates. There have always been and always will be apostates because Allah in his divine wisdom takes away Imaan and also gives imaan to whomever he wants. However there are far more people coming to Islam than leaving and more so than any other faith, belief - or lack of - in this world. Alhamdulillah.

Therefore I think this is the end of the road for you for now. You have made it clear you are going to remain firm in your disbelief and that your sole aim and purpose here is for others to be where you are right now in "understanding and being at your neutral point" being disbelief. It is pointless having any more "to and from" with you as you know you will not budge from your disbelief and as I have already stated - none of us can unseal your heart and give you guidance - however we have given you sufficient advice and enough to ponder and contemplate over and the rest is now up to you to go and ponder/reflect/contemplate do your research etc and if you feel any different then certainly come back and we can discuss matters further with you again.

Best of luck with your search and may Allah guide you to the truth and unseal your heart. Ameen

[Kazu]

Kazu why is it that you feel the need to keep going forum to forum and face to face with Muslims about wanting them to "understand your disbelief" or be at your "neutral" point being disbelief? What will you gain out of that? Why can you not just get on with your life as you are now and let others get on with theirs? Why is it that you just cannot let it go?

As I said, I'm already leaving this forum as it is futile. So why you ask. I want to help you to figure out your own root of problem instead of just mine. You seems so ego and incapable of understanding other people. Maybe it's because you're the moderator of this site and you can't let people seeing you surrender to someone so low as me? I don't know, I hope not. Maybe by helping you out, you will know what kind of approach/strategy to use if some lost ex-muslim come asking advice from you next time. About what I just can't let go? is the mentality of some muslims, this way I think you're just not doing dawah the right way. If you wanna know your dawah is effective or not you have to ask the person you're doing dawah to, am I right?

There is no Shariah at present in this world for anyone to say "Islam did this".

That's what you think. Now you living in the UK, have you ever lived under sharia? Do you know what it's like to live under madhabs? yes I know madhabs and sects are different. While madhabs don't kill or hate each other, the existence of different madhabs in different countries have created many problems. Living in a secular country, freedom destroys freedom. But whatever, as a muslim you have to support this system anyway as it is in your belief to do so.

You claim to not want others to "join" your club but then you are being reluctant that other Muslims should "understand your disbelief" and be at your "neutral point in disbelief", and when I asked you how this possible if they are firm believers and cannot possibly understand your disbelief, then you give contradictory statements. You are essentially saying that you want people with firm belief to "forcibly" put aside their firm beliefs in God and his commands and somehow feel disbelief, confusion, pain and disillusionment as you do.

You don't need to be me to understand me. I don't need to be you to understand you.

Right now, I feel that it is really futile to make you understand me, as it is very futile for you (in your thinking) to make me understand you and Islam.

Anyway thank you for all the knowledge, advice, compliments, criticism the people in this forum gave me. May I find God in the future.

[Hamza Asadullah]

As I said, I'm already leaving this forum as it is futile. So why you ask. I want to help you to figure out your own root of problem instead of just mine. You seems so ego and incapable of understanding other people. Maybe it's because you're the moderator of this site and you can't let people seeing you surrender to someone so low as me? I don't know, I hope not. Maybe by helping you out, you will know what kind of approach/strategy to use if some lost ex-muslim come asking advice from you next time. About what I just can't let go? is the mentality of some muslims, this way I think you're just not doing dawah the right way. If you wanna know your dawah is effective or not you have to ask the person you're doing dawah to, am I right?

It is "futile" each and every time you try and convince and "corrupt" other Muslims minds into rejecting God and his wisdom so they can disbelieve as you do.

What really frustrates you and apostates like you is the fact that most believing Muslims are so firm on their faith that they will never waiver from it, nor reject Allah and his divine wisdom like you do in disbelief. Apostates are not happy with their own situation and so they want others to also be where they are so they can somehow justify their own beliefs in order to "settle" their hearts alittle. But this will never happen Kazu. You will never be satisfied nor content with what you believe until you totally submit your will unto Allah and rid your heart of this arrogance that is making you reject him and his divine wisdom.

You say I cannot see others "surrender" to someone like you? Is that the purpose as to why you are here in order for us to "surrender" to your arguments? In fact what has been exposed throughout this thread is your inconsistent, contradictory and incoherent statements and arguments.

You talk about giving dawah to people like you, but as I have already stated, that there are some people who will never believe no matter how many people try and convince them and even if evidence is laid out in front of them because they have a seal on their hearts. Therefore we cannot unseal any heart nor is guidance in our hands.

However we have advised you sufficiently enough for you to go and contemplate, ponder and research properly and really look deep within yourself for the truth. Ask of Allah by raising your hands unto him and do not be of those who arrogantly reject for no reason.

That's what you think. Now you living in the UK, have you ever lived under sharia? Do you know what it's like to live under madhabs? yes I know madhabs and sects are different. While madhabs don't kill or hate each other, the existence of different madhabs in different countries have created many problems. Living in a secular country, freedom destroys freedom. But whatever, as a muslim you have to support this system anyway as it is in your belief to do so.

The last Shariah ended in 1924 so none of us have ever lived under a Shariah.

Yes we have different Madhabs in the UK and across the world and as far as I know, no one has ever killed another due to the Madhab they follow, which clearly exposes the fact that you know not what a Madhab is.

Well actually many "Moderate and liberal" Muslims nowadays also do not support Shariah because like you they have been sold by Anti-Islamic rhetoric which only conveys lies against Islam and the Shariah. In fact many of the systems we have today have taken things from the Islamic Shariah. The difference between Shariah and secularism is that Shariah is the divine law of God for the betterment of the whole of mankind. Whereas secular systems are only for the benefit of the elite.

You don't need to be me to understand me. I don't need to be you to understand you.

Right now, I feel that it is really futile to make you understand me, as it is very futile for you (in your thinking) to make me understand you and Islam.

Anyway thank you for all the knowledge, advice, compliments, criticism the people in this forum gave me. May I find God in the future.

First you say that we do need to "understand" you and be at your "neutral" point in disbelief and now you are saying we don't? Again contradictory statements.

As I have already said I wish you the best with your search and may Allah open your heart to the truth and may you come back with full Imaan. Ameen

Thread closed