About Christianity

[greenhill]

A recent post made me ponder.. but this is not the best place to ask, being an islamic site and all ;) but I see many Christians in here and ex Christians too!

What it's essentially about is that in islam, it is basic to have learnt about the 25 prophets. The message is understood via the historical lessons given to man throughout the ages as they collectively progressed in these stories. So for those who accept islam, they are already following the final messenger and they are settled...

What is not settled is that we know the Jews are still awaiting their final(?) messenger. They rejected Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them both. Christians rejected Muhammad (pbuh), so are they waiting for a final messenger or have they settled for what is brought to them by the Bible? or: There are no more messengers! Or : Don't know?

Or am I not clear?



:peace:

[Umm♥Layth]

I'm a former christian :)

All 3 religions are waiting for t he Messiah to return although for different reasons. I don't think either religion has another prophet that they should be expecting.

[greenhill]

Ok... I think that is looking at it rather simplistically..

Let me elaborate. Dajjal would arrive and be very convincing as warned our holy prophet pbuh. Isa a.s would descend and deal with Dajjal. That is more or less the muslim's views. So there are two central figures here. One would be the ultimate deceiver. But the 'spiritual' leader is someone else.

When Dajjal arrives, would the Christians would view him as anti Christ? It appears to me likely that they will follow the Jews and Dajjal... As most of the weak faith muslims... I would probably stick my neck out and say even medium faith muslims..


:peace:

[Umm♥Layth]

Oh, well your original post was speaking of prophets, not the end times. Both Muslims and Christians are awaiting the appearance of the Antichrist/Dajjal as a sign of judgement day nearing.

Muslims are awaiting the appearance of The Mahdi as well. Some Christians believe that the Mahdi will be/Is the Antichrist, so they won't be following him unfortunately and will likely oppose him. I don't recall anything about a different spiritual leader in the Christian teachings (but I'm rusty at this point). For Christians, when the Antichrist arrives, Jesus will come soon after. I could be mistaken. I also don't know if they believe Jesus will lead the people for a period of time or if the coming of Jesus means judgement day straight away.

Of course, as Muslims we know that Dajjal will appear, Al Mahdi will appear and Isa (as) will appear last and he will lead the people for a time before judgement day comes.

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[AbdurRahman.]

Ok... I think that is looking at it rather simplistically..

Let me elaborate. Dajjal would arrive and be very convincing as warned our holy prophet pbuh. Isa a.s would descend and deal with Dajjal. That is more or less the muslim's views. So there are two central figures here. One would be the ultimate deceiver. But the 'spiritual' leader is someone else.

When Dajjal arrives, would the Christians would view him as anti Christ? It appears to me likely that they will follow the Jews and Dajjal... As most of the weak faith muslims... I would probably stick my neck out and say even medium faith muslims..


:peace:

no br you got that wrong, weak faithed muslims and medium faith muslims will not follow dajjal as otherwise 90 percent of muslims will follow him! :Emoji48:

[M.I.A.]

http://www1.cbn.com/onlinedisciplesh...e-east-turmoil

just quickly googled this...


because i hate to keep things complicated.
..
....
great the weathers nice and somebody parked a disability scooter outside the window...

its massive aswell..

and then he walked off? o_0

[Simple_Person]

no br you got that wrong, weak faithed muslims and medium faith muslims will not follow dajjal as otherwise 90 percent of muslims will follow him! :Emoji48:

Correct me if i am wrong.

Well prior to that, we know that before the arrival of dajjal wouldn't there be two camps?

One camp full of imaan and no hypocrisy,
Other camp full of hypocrisy and no imaan.

So speaking about Muslims, that Allah knows how many will follow Mahdi. Majority of Muslims now a days have become "i follow Islam because my parents follow it"-mentality. Allah knows the condition of their heart.

Also we know from a hadith that the Arabs will be few in the time of mahdi, which is kind of bizarre as Arabs exceed 300 million in current times with majority being Muslims. Not to forget hadith about two camps of the same religion fighting each other and many people dying. I am not sure if this is being the Muslims..

[AbdurRahman.]

Correct me if i am wrong.

Well prior to that, we know that before the arrival of dajjal wouldn't there be two camps?

One camp full of imaan and no hypocrisy,
Other camp full of hypocrisy and no imaan.

So speaking about Muslims, that Allah knows how many will follow Mahdi. Majority of Muslims now a days have become "i follow Islam because my parents follow it"-mentality. Allah knows the condition of their heart.

Also we know from a hadith that the Arabs will be few in the time of mahdi, which is kind of bizarre as Arabs exceed 300 million in current times with majority being Muslims.

i think with the arrival of mahdi [as] most muslims if not all will become very religious as they will know dajjals about to come and things are about to get serious!

our religion will be about to be victorious with th coming of mahdi and Isa [as] and dajjal taking 90 percent of muslims in his camp will be a failure for us

even the common muslims now [one who hardly prays] knows about the dajjal and his miracles so muslims by and large should be safe; there are ofcourse these 'hypocryts' and 'modernists' amongst us but they are few and dajjal will get them

[Simple_Person]

i think with the arrival of mahdi [as] most muslims if not all will become very religious as they will know dajjals about to come and things are about to get serious!

our religion will be about to be victorious with th coming of mahdi and Isa [as] and dajjal taking 90 percent of muslims in his camp will be a failure for us

even the common muslims now [one who hardly prays] knows about the dajjal and his miracles so muslims by and large should be safe; there are ofcourse these 'hypocryts' and 'modernists' amongst us but they are few and dajjal will get them

Well brother ...that one i have my doubts. The moment i embraced Islam by choice. Those years after that i was actively hoarding mass amount of knowledge about the deen. Also about dajjal and end times. I have talked with some Muslims that also live in the west and are Muslims their whole life. I was kind of confused that they never heard of dajjal. Back in the Middle East they have had heard of dajjal, but not really actively thinking about him and his powers anymore. So it gave me mixed feelings.

Also not to forget we are talking about Muslims like 90% with having in mind more than 1 bilion Muslims. However Arabs will be few and also many Muslims will die during the malhama (the big war). A part will flee and Allah(swt) will never forgive them. Just before Jesus(as) would arrive Muslims will be about 1200 or so..if i am not mistaken...

So from 1.6 BILLION Muslims to 1200..o_O!!??

BTW, i also forget to mention about the sound or ..(my memory has abandoned me little bit) that we Muslims have to go in sujood and say something something (forgot what it was..need to refresh all of it once again). But during this time MANY will die who has not gone in sujood and thus protected themselves from the sound.

Abdullah ibn Mas'ud [r.a.] said that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "When there is a Sayha (scream) in Ramadan, then there will be turmoil in Shawwal, and the tribes will form groups in Zul-Qi'da, and blood will be spilled in Zul-Hijja, and in Al-Muharram! What is prohibited?" saying it three times, "Oh, Oh! The people will be killed in a great massacres." He said: "We said: "What is the Sayha (scream), O Messenger of Allah?" He said: "This will be in the middle of Ramadan, on a Friday morning. That will be when the month of Ramadan begins on a Friday night. There will be a Hadda (powerful, hammering sound) that will awaken one who is asleep, and bring the young women out of their rooms, on a Friday night during a year of many earthquakes (and very cold). So when Ramadan begins on a Friday night in that year, then when you have prayed Fajr on Friday in the middle of Ramadan, then enter your houses, close your doors, block your windows, cover yourselves, and block your ears. When you sense the scream, fall down in prostration to Allah and say: "Subhanal-Quddus, subhanal-Quddus, rabbunal-Quddus (Glory be to the Most Holy, glory be to the Most Holy, our Lord is the Most Holy)." For whoever does that will survive, and whoever does not will perish." (Nuaim bin Hammad's Kitab Al-Fitan, Hadith )


Source used: http://www.discoveringislam.org/signs_before_mahdi.htm

i have also searched for the coming 10 years and nowhere have i found that Ramadan would begin on a Friday night. Allah knows best off course.

[AbdurRahman.]

Well brother ...that one i have my doubts. The moment i embraced Islam by choice. Those years after that i was actively hoarding mass amount of knowledge about the deen. Also about dajjal and end times. I have talked with some Muslims that also live in the west and are Muslims their whole life. I was kind of confused that they never heard of dajjal. Back in the Middle East they have had heard of dajjal, but not really actively thinking about him and his powers anymore. So it gave me mixed feelings.

Also not to forget we are talking about Muslims like 90% with having in mind more than 1 bilion Muslims. However Arabs will be few and also many Muslims will die during the malhama (the big war). A part will flee and Allah(swt) will never forgive them. Just before Jesus(as) would arrive Muslims will be about 1200 or so..if i am not mistaken...

So from 1.6 BILLION Muslims to 1200..o_O!!??

BTW, i also forget to mention about the sound or ..(my memory has abandoned me little bit) that we Muslims have to go in sujood and say something something (forgot what it was..need to refresh all of it once again). But during this time MANY will die who has not gone in sujood and thus protected themselves from the sound.

it doesn't matter if some havn't heard about him; 99.9 percent of muslims will know that the very anti-thesis of Islam is to accept a man as God; at the time of dajjal islam will allready be victorious as Mahdi [as] and the mujahideen would have destroyed the christian armies and established shariah all over the middle east so Islam and it's knowledge will be flourishing

all muslims will be able to see the word 'KAAFIR' written on dajjals forhead!; thats enuf for them to run the other way! :Emoji46:

[Simple_Person]

it doesn't matter if some havn't heard about him; 99.9 percent of muslims will know that the very anti-thesis of Islam is to accept a man as God; at the time of dajjal islam will allready be victorious as Mahdi [as] and the mujahideen would have destroyed the christian armies and established shariah all over the middle east so Islam and it's knowledge will be flourishing

all muslims will be able to see the word 'KAAFIR' written on dajjals forhead!; thats enuf for them to run the other way! :Emoji46:

Well Allah knows best. As even these times when just observing Muslims that as refugees come to EU and other countries. Some (weak willed Muslims) giving up their religion to stay in that country. Also there are others that have abandoned Islam as they see ISIS being Islam =_=!. I think these other people that have abandoned Islam were munafiq at the start, but never had the right excuse to abandon it. So all i have seen is cleansing of the Ummah. Weak willed Muslims that easily would give up their religion and also the munafiq. Besides that many non-Muslims have started investigate Islam and become Muslims. Some other weak willed Muslims have finally started to dig in their deen and have tasted imaan and strengthened their imaan.

Around me just a few years ago..people were doing what they were doing...including me. And i sub'han'Allah have seen many brothers suddenly becoming more practicing. I THINK the people who will read KAAFIR on the head of dajjal would be the ones who are already convinced of Islam and Allah by heart. As the moment when dajjal arrives it would be the case of imaan. But again Allah knows best.

[AbdurRahman.]

Well Allah knows best. As even these times when just observing Muslims that as refugees come to EU and other countries. Some (weak willed Muslims) giving up their religion to stay in that country. Also there are others that have abandoned Islam as they see ISIS being Islam =_=!. I think these other people that have abandoned Islam were munafiq at the start, but never had the right excuse to abandon it. So all i have seen is cleansing of the Ummah. Weak willed Muslims that easily would give up their religion and also the munafiq. Besides that many non-Muslims have started investigate Islam and become Muslims. Some other weak willed Muslims have finally started to dig in their deen and have tasted imaan and strengthened their imaan.

Around me just a few years ago..people were doing what they were doing...including me. And i sub'han'Allah have seen many brothers suddenly becoming more practicing. I THINK the people who will read KAAFIR on the head of dajjal would be the ones who are already convinced of Islam and Allah by heart. As the moment when dajjal arrives it would be the case of imaan. But again Allah knows best.

yes indeed Allah knows best but we can form good inferences from the evidences and wisdom; the apostating muslims are few

Allah says in the Quran, this deen will prevail and the ultimate prevailing will take place with the emergence of Mahdi and Isa [as] so what sort of 'victory' would it be for Islam if kaafirs win over 90 percent of muslims?; more like it will be a massive victory to them!

Imam an Nawawi interpreted the verse which says 'good deeds will not go to waste' (9:120) as that muslims who have done good deeds for ALlah will die as muslims; do we think 90 percent of muslims are dying as kaafirs now? [there is a masive test just like the one of dajjal just before death when satan comes in the form of our parents...], ALlah mercy doesn't change and such a great unbearable fitnah wont be suddenly be put upon them that changes this

there is no evidence either that suggests dajjal will win over such great numbers of muslims and muslims are always optimistic/hopeful thus thinking positive about the future is the sunnah way! :)

the deviant muslims like isis will correct their aqeedah once the Mahdi is here for then there will be no more arguments ... all muslims will know the Mahdi [as] has the correct Islam!

muslims with strong imaan wont fall prey to dajjal wether dajjal has kaafir written on his forehead or not, so to think that all other muslims will fall prey to dajjal negates the wisdom of ALlah as what will be the point of ALlah showing this to muslims if it dont work?

dajjal will come with great fitnah and 'miracles' but ALlah has countered that with assisting muslims with miracles of his own ...

[greenhill]

no br you got that wrong, weak faithed muslims and medium faith muslims will not follow dajjal as otherwise 90 percent of muslims will follow him! :Emoji48:

I remember a saying by our holy prophet pbuh something to the effect of 'islam arrived somewhat like a stranger and will leave like a stranger...'


:peace:

[AbdurRahman.]

I remember a saying by our holy prophet pbuh something to the effect of 'islam arrived somewhat like a stranger and will leave like a stranger...'


:peace:

slam bro!

that basically means the practicing muslims will become few again just like it started with few; but all the improper muslims are muslims too and inshALlah we will all make it!

[Bosanac]

It's not fair to generalize/call them weak willed or devious for straying from the religion. You don't know their life stories. Perhaps they have good reason for their decisions. What if they were never properly educated on Islam? Would you have them follow Islam blindely?

[Simple_Person]

It's not fair to generalize/call them weak willed or devious for straying from the religion. You don't know their life stories. Perhaps they have good reason for their decisions. What if they were never properly educated on Islam? Would you have them follow Islam blindely?

I can i THINK take myself as the example you are using. I was born as a Muslim. I practiced Islam..did what i had to do..but never knew or even understood anything about Islam. I was to be honest hands down i am not sure even a Muslim. i became an atheist when i came to the west but that took another 9 years before i counted myself as a atheist, but sub'han'Allah what puzzles me..when ever somebody said something bad against Muslims i defended Muslims and Islam although not knowing ANYTHING about it. To this day it is very confusing to me. It is like something in you defend something, but logically speaking you are not even sure why..but somehow just do it. The harshest and only thing negative i ever have said and believed during my time as an atheist was that "religion is man-made"..that's it..nothing more. Off course how such a fool i was without giving actual objective evidence..which it doesn't exist :).

Anyhow, in my life as an atheist i have questioned things..i saw people including myself recover from a broken heart once and i REFUSED to believe that a broken heart is just "normal" thing. I saw people hopping from one broken heart to another. I have by "human standards" lived a "ugly" child hood life when immigrating to the west while now looking back from a bit of wisdom of Allah(swt), i saw ALHAMDULILLAH. It was a MAJOR blessing that i have lived such a life with 100% conviction in that blessing.

Allah(swt) has thrown strange things (signs) in my path as He throws strange things (signs) on other people's path's. If you after so many signs still not wonder..what is going on, what is your conclusion then? 9/11 false flag did me nothing (make me ponder), invading of Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia you name it..nothing made me ponder. However what happened here in the west the things that people found "normal" made me ponder. While for some people things in the west did not make them ponder, but 9/11 false flag, invading Iraq, Afghanistan..etc. etc made them ponder. Now we also have Arab spring, ISIS and other groups. Islam is being attacked day in and day out the amount of people becoming corrupt in lying, stealing, etc you see day in and day out. This will go on till the arrival of dajjal. If people still have not pondered about ANY of those things, for sure you cannot blame Allah(swt) that they follow dajjal or even say somebody is weak willed. Allah(swt) knows best off course, but those people have received EVERY chance there is before Allah(swt) has let lose the biggest fitna since Adam(as).

I can give you all kind of food, but if you do not eat and die of hunger, you cannot blame me for dying of hunger.

[Bosanac]

Thank you for sharing your story, and I am happy you found your way back to Islam after everything you went through and actually pondering over the religion, and not just following it out of family tradition and whatnot.

However, I still see a problem with a few of your statements:

Allah(swt) has thrown strange things (signs) in my path as He throws strange things (signs) on other people's path's. If you after so many signs still not wonder..what is going on, what is your conclusion then?

Again, you're generalising. Those might have been signs for you, but not to others. Or just because you saw those things as signs doesn't mean others have. And how do you know these other apostates or whoever haven't wondered over what is going on in the world? Perhaps they did and just reached a different conclusion. As you rightfully said, God does indeed make paths for all of us, perhaps this state of disbelief these people are going through is just a temporary part of their path in life. We don't know, only God knows. Perhaps the signs that ultimately get the apostate(s) to revert back didn't get revealed to them yet. We all have our journeys.

I can give you all kind of food, but if you do not eat and die of hunger, you cannot blame me for dying of hunger.

Not a very good metaphor. Again, this is assuming your hypothetical person even knows that the food you left him will nourish him, or that he even found it. It doesn't sound like you even know why they rejected your food. You don't actually have enough information to come to that conclusion.

And conceal your speech or publicize it; indeed, He is Knowing of that within the breasts. [67:13]

I post that to remind you God knows what is in all our hearts, you and I do not. So don't belittle others by calling them weak willed and similar sentiments.

The reason I am staying adamant about this issue is because I have friends and family that have been mistreated by Muslims in the past for this very subject. They started off curious but ignorant on Islam and Muslims around them treated them with ridicule, calling them exactly that: weak-willed and other mocking names without any right.

Years down the road a few actually continued to educate themselves on Islam and reverted/converted, despite the negative response of the Muslims around them. Others went in the OPPOSITE direction. They grew to despise Muslims and Islam because of the way they were talked down to.

[Simple_Person]

Thank you for sharing your story, and I am happy you found your way back to Islam after everything you went through and actually pondering over the religion, and not just following it out of family tradition and whatnot.

However, I still see a problem with a few of your statements:


Again, you're generalising. Those might have been signs for you, but not to others. Or just because you saw those things as signs doesn't mean others have. And how do you know these other apostates or whoever haven't wondered over what is going on in the world? Perhaps they did and just reached a different conclusion. As you rightfully said, God does indeed make paths for all of us, perhaps this state of disbelief these people are going through is just a temporary part of their path in life. We don't know, only God knows. Perhaps the signs that ultimately get the apostate(s) to revert back didn't get revealed to them yet. We all have our journeys.


Not a very good metaphor. Again, this is assuming your hypothetical person even knows that the food you left him will nourish him, or that he even found it. It doesn't sound like you even know why they rejected your food. You don't actually have enough information to come to that conclusion.

And conceal your speech or publicize it; indeed, He is Knowing of that within the breasts. [67:13]

I post that to remind you God knows what is in all our hearts, you and I do not. So don't belittle others by calling them weak willed and similar sentiments.

The reason I am staying adamant about this issue is because I have friends and family that have been mistreated by Muslims in the past for this very subject. They started off curious but ignorant on Islam and Muslims around them treated them with ridicule, calling them exactly that: weak-willed and other mocking names without any right.

Years down the road a few actually continued to educate themselves on Islam and reverted/converted, despite the negative response of the Muslims around them. Others went in the OPPOSITE direction. They grew to despise Muslims and Islam because of the way they were talked down to.

You seem to misunderstand much of my post. Let me further clarify it.

If you read my comment again you see that every person will get other signs. Allah (swt) has taken upon Himself to show His ayaat before we die. 80 ayaat may not do you or me anything but aya number 81 may make me ponder and also those 80 ayaat before can confirm my pondering. With some of those family members of yours 99 ayaat may not make them ponder but aya number 100 may make them ponder and 99 previous ayaat may become a confirmation.

There are people despite everything they do not follow..it is not because of they are blind for it. It's is because of dishonesty. As often somebody for example KNOWS ooh Islam is the truth but I hate those Muslims so I do not want to be Muslim. What has truth to do with those corrupt people that associate themselves with the truth?. What they show is arrogance and pride...sounds familiar right...iblies his behavior.

There are people in the west that look down on Arabs because of them being less educated and stuff. So everything that the Arabs come up with those western people reject...again you see a trend?..pride..I have seen this iblies tradition in many situations being repeated.

To me many Arabs are "idiots" and what remains and truly follow Islam are my brothers and sisters. There "idiots" are so longing to want to know English language and looking down on the Arabic language..I almost wanna cry and you fool look what you are throwing away. Allah has given you a diamond from birth you want to through it away for a less valuable something.

About abuse in the childhood of mine here in the west I have also been psychically and mentally abused but it is very illogical and irrational that person having done that to me doesn't understand single thing about Islam. That person practices Islam like I was ..never tasted imaan judging by her actions..full of envy and hatred. I rather feel sorry for her.

Anyways Allah shows all of His signs and on the Day of Judgement the person going to hell will even agree 100% that he or she deserves to go to hell. Everybody is convinced and agreed on their judgement before continuing.

[Bosanac]

We're definitely on the same page when it comes to acknowledging we all have our own signs and I have no further problems with your stance on that issue. That is exactly what I was trying to say too.

But again, I don't think you understand my problem with the way you're judging these people you keep referring to:

There are people despite everything they do not follow.

Agreed.

it is not because of they are blind for it. It's is because of dishonesty.

How do you know this?

As often somebody for example KNOWS ooh Islam is the truth but I hate those Muslims so I do not want to be Muslim.

True, I agree and it definitely is sad.

What they show is arrogance and pride...sounds familiar right...iblies his behavior.

How do you know they're arrogant and prideful? You're jumping to conclusions. Have you ever lived in a warzone before? Serious question. I have and its pretty ugly and certainly does make you question a lot of things. If it made these refugees coming over question their religion, I can understand. Of course you could be right, but we don't know.

There are people in the west that look down on Arabs because of them being less educated and stuff. So everything that the Arabs come up with those western people reject...again you see a trend?

What Arab things are you talking about, and how are they looking down at them? Be specific. How do you know it's pride? If these Arabs youre talking about arent educated, maybe the westerners DO know more on whatever subject you're talking about.

There "idiots" are so longing to want to know English language and looking down on the Arabic language.

Why are you calling them idiots because they want to learn another language? That sounds silly. And English is almost a universal language, very useful to learn. How do you know theyre looking down on Arabic? You're assuming. Take me for example. I'm learning French. That doesn't mean I look down at other languages that I know.

Anyways Allah shows all of His signs and on the Day of Judgement the person going to hell will even agree 100% that he or she deserves to go to hell. Everybody is convinced and agreed on their judgement before continuing.

If you know that judgement is for God, why are YOU so judgemental of these refugees coming over trying to assimilate in the west, or apostates or whoever? You call them idiots, weak-willed, arrogant, etc. That's backbiting. You don't know their situations, you're just assuming for whatever reason. You could be right sure, but you could also be wrong. You are not in a position to judge them. And it's just rude.

I apologise if I sound confrontational. I just think it's important to not judge other people, even if we disagree with their life choices.

[Simple_Person]

I think you are mixing some things of mine. But i blame myself for it, for not making it clear.

How do you know this?

There are people who do not follow the religion of Islam because of arrogance and pride. But i have NOT referred to weak willed Muslims. Who are weak willed Muslims one must first ask. Those people to my opinion are the ones that had questions but never had answers to their questions or people who have just practiced Islam their whole life not knowing or understanding what Islam is all about. The could also be among refugees. As i myself when i came to the west had similar problem.

Now before dajjal would arrive these weak willed Muslims will for sure get every sign there is that could make them ponder that is my believe and faith in Allah(swt) IF they have left Islam because of that doubt. Others munafiq among them..well no need to talk about them as you know what a munafiq already is.

How do you know they're arrogant and prideful? You're jumping to conclusions. Have you ever lived in a warzone before? Serious question. I have and its pretty ugly and certainly does make you question a lot of things. If it made these refugees coming over question their religion, I can understand. Of course you could be right, but we don't know.

Definition of arrogance:
"offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride."

Source used: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/arrogance

When we pray you might stand next to me. As equals before Allah. I might have more knowledge of Islam, you might have more understanding of Islam, i might be rich, you might have more charisma..however we stand NEXT to each other before Allah(swt). Even if you were a king..you will stand next to me as equals before Allah(swt). IF one KNOWS Islam is the truth, what has some corrupt person that associate himself with Islam to do with the religion of Islam because he also says he is a Muslim and you because of that reject becoming Muslim. You do not want to be associated with that person by any kind although it is the truth. You feel yourself more important than being a Muslim and humbling yourself in front of Allah(swt). Let me repeat that again, You feel yourself more important than being a Muslim and humbling yourself in front of Allah(swt).

Yes i have lived in a warzone. I have seen dead bodies laying around..i have seen bullets going through the sky when it was dark like fireworks going one side to the another. I have lost my own father to war and born without a father and lived without a father. I have with my family fled from war. So i THINK i can talk a LITTLE BIT about war.

People in those countries are sheep. You do what you have to do..DO NOT ASK QUESTIONS!!..QUESTIONS ARE EVIL!!..This is the mentality. While Islam is open for all kind of questions and i ask A LOT OF QUESTIONS compared to the average person and i alhamdulillah have each time gotten a logical, rational and reasonable answer to each one of those questions. So questioning your religion, there is NOTHING wrong with it. Those people might leave the religion because of all the confusion there is even nothing wrong with it i might even say. Allah(swt) will guide whom He wants. He will show every person His signs. The person who has left the religion will for sure come back to it if he is honest without pride or arrogance in'sha'Allah.

What Arab things are you talking about, and how are they looking down at them? Be specific. How do you know it's pride? If these Arabs youre talking about arent educated, maybe the westerners DO know more on whatever subject you're talking about.

Within the Middle East women are covered up, this is seen as something backward. Having a beard even is seeing as something backward..homeless..men having multiple wives..as something backward and oppressing. Having Arabic clothes (male) some backward thinking..(as men do not wear dresses). People eating with their hands, seeing as something from cavemen..as civilized people eat with spoons and forks. Islamic slaughtering..something backward doing such harm to a animal instead of ending its suffering with a pin to the head. Not shaking hands with women..something backward as men and women are equal.

definition of superiority:
"the quality or condition of being superior."

Source used: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/superiority

If this is not feeling superior than please do teach me what superior means. I am not talking about some subject that they might know one or two things more than you. In life we will always see or meet people who know more than us. Education also isn't everything. There are some illiterate old men in villages we have never heard of and they bear ma'sha'Allah sooo much wisdom and understanding of things. If we talk about education is only way to knowledge and understanding..that by that definition Rasullah(saws) illiterate and without any education was ignorant. Which off course is just rubbish. I have witnessed myself people who have master degrees..they are more blind that the person born blind. Some know much as they have learned it..but understand little of all of what they have learned. As understanding comes from Allah(swt).

In this day and age, people lack understanding. They are too emotional. They never ponder as tv and music and other stuff prevents them from pondering. I knew a person and that person would not read my replies longer than a few sentences..o_0!!?? As that person said that it takes just too much time to read them. But talking about nonsense subjects that person had enough time to talk about it. However among people from the Middle East there is also a lot of pride. I know this because i have witnessed it very much. When you say something right..and they know you are right and they are wrong, often they try to belittle you in front of other people. What do you say or do in those situations..=_=!. I have learned to be at least in their presence as the conversations only goes about politics and money. Here in the west is only politics and religion and they don't know anything about both of them. I am not saying i know more, but it is watching propaganda channels and have a opinion based on those propaganda channels ...o_O!!..

Why are you calling them idiots because they want to learn another language? That sounds silly. And English is almost a universal language, very useful to learn. How do you know theyre looking down on Arabic? You're assuming. Take me for example. I'm learning French. That doesn't mean I look down at other languages that I know.

No you misunderstood what i said, but i blame myself on this. Every language is a blessing from Allah(swt). The people i call "idiots" are the ones that disregard Arabic language and feel as if it is inferior to English language. If it was up to me, for every Muslim who speaks English, i would say learn Arabic (including myself). For every Arabic speaker i would say learn English AT LEAST. Because knowledge right now not because it is a universal language..but because right now it is the language of science. If you want to learn up to 10 languages..it is all blessing from Allah(swt). So my argument is only to those people who feel as if Arabic language is superior to any other language.

If you know that judgement is for God, why are YOU so judgemental of these refugees coming over trying to assimilate in the west, or apostates or whoever? You call them idiots, weak-willed, arrogant, etc. That's backbiting. You don't know their situations, you're just assuming for whatever reason. You could be right sure, but you could also be wrong. You are not in a position to judge them. And it's just rude.

I apologise if I sound confrontational. I just think it's important to not judge other people, even if we disagree with their life choices.

I think this part..if you have read other parts..you will in'sha'Allah have better understanding what i have tried to say.

[Bosanac]

Gotcha. I do understand you more clearly now and thank you for the clarification. Apologies again if I sounded confrontational, I just thought it was important to clear up our stances on this stuff.

[Mustafa16]

Christians believe that Jesus was the final Prophet, as well as God incarnate and the son of God, and that he will return at the end of time to kill the AntiChrist....Muslims believe that the mahdi (Messiah) and the Dajjal will appear at around the same time, and Jesus, or Isa (AS) will kill the dajjal. Jews also believe in a false messiah, which they call the Armilus, and the true Messiah, will appear at the End Times.

[Robrog8999]

Christians are awaiting Jesus second return. Jews are still awaiting a savior as they rejected Jesus altogether.

[Robrog8999]

Christians believe that Jesus was the final Prophet, as well as God incarnate and the son of God, and that he will return at the end of time to kill the AntiChrist....Muslims believe that the mahdi (Messiah) and the Dajjal will appear at around the same time, and Jesus, or Isa (AS) will kill the dajjal. Jews also believe in a false messiah, which they call the Armilus, and the true Messiah, will appear at the End Times.

Not all Christian's believe Jesus is God though. That's the doctrine of the Trinity.
I have always rejected the trinity, my church did not accept that as it's not biblical. Unfortunately, many Christian's do accept the trinity simply because it's been passed down to them. The majority that do accept the trinity view it differently though too.. Then how it is defined.
Some believe Jesus to be God but of different substance. And then you have those who believe Jesus and God are of the same substance. Which doesn't make sense but has been passed down.
Anyway, my church has taught that Jesus is simply the Son of God, separate entirely. Takes orders from God and is below God. Has been chosen to be savior and Redeemer. So yeah, not all Christian's believe Jesus is God incarcerated. Just wanted to clear that up.

[Robrog8999]

Not all Christian's believe Jesus is God though. That's the doctrine of the Trinity.
I have always rejected the trinity, my church did not accept that as it's not biblical. Unfortunately, many Christian's do accept the trinity simply because it's been passed down to them. The majority that do accept the trinity view it differently though too.. Then how it is defined.
Some believe Jesus to be God but of different substance. And then you have those who believe Jesus and God are of the same substance. Which doesn't make sense but has been passed down.
Anyway, my church has taught that Jesus is simply the Son of God, separate entirely. Takes orders from God and is below God. Has been chosen to be savior and Redeemer. So yeah, not all Christian's believe Jesus is God incarcerated. Just wanted to clear that up.

Oops..God incarnate**

[Bobbyflay23]

Correct me if i am wrong.

Well prior to that, we know that before the arrival of dajjal wouldn't there be two camps?

One camp full of imaan and no hypocrisy,
Other camp full of hypocrisy and no imaan.

So speaking about Muslims, that Allah knows how many will follow Mahdi. Majority of Muslims now a days have become "i follow Islam because my parents follow it"-mentality. Allah knows the condition of their heart.

Also we know from a hadith that the Arabs will be few in the time of mahdi, which is kind of bizarre as Arabs exceed 300 million in current times with majority being Muslims. Not to forget hadith about two camps of the same religion fighting each other and many people dying. I am not sure if this is being the Muslims..

The few Muslims in my opinion is the reverts and the ones that came to Islam on there own and not because they're parents told them too and he's just going to use dajal as a means to purify our nation or maybe it's because much Muslims will die in a war against him

[Simple_Person]

The few Muslims in my opinion is the reverts and the ones that came to Islam on there own and not because they're parents told them too and he's just going to use dajal as a means to purify our nation or maybe it's because much Muslims will die in a war against him

Well both. As we know a earthquake will happen in Medina and the hypocrites will flee from Medina..right in to the arms of Dajjal waiting outside. Also Rasullah (saws) speaking about a bedouin that Dajja will ask him if I bring your parents back from death will you believe that I am your Lord? And he after that will follow him. Dajjal is the last definitieve answer one could say to give certain people ABSOLUTELY not one excuse left to enter paradise. These people with their mouth many saying they are Muslim, Christian. .Jew. .believe in 1 God ..but in their heart not really the case. Those days it is rather sticking firmly to your heart and what you believe and not using your mind.

[greenhill]

Christians are awaiting Jesus second return. Jews are still awaiting a savior as they rejected Jesus altogether.

I will accept that. The Jews also rejected Muhammad (pbuh).

My main thought on this is that although the Christians accepted Jesus (pbuh) then, mostly the Christians of today do not follow his preaching but instead they follow Paul.

What is the implication? Imagine now that Jesus does make his second return, what will he be saying? Will he be agreeing to Paul's teachings? Would he celebrate Christmas? Did he not fast for 40 days in lent? Did he not pray by putting his head to the ground, circumcised, eat kosher food etc, and does it not appear more to be like what islam preaches? Especially about the Oneness of God, and he never claimed divinity. If Jesus returned and practiced what he did 2000 years ago, would the Christians recognise him?

Don't mean to offend with this, just asking a question. Hence the OP..


:peace:

[Simple_Person]

Not all Christian's believe Jesus is God though. That's the doctrine of the Trinity.
I have always rejected the trinity, my church did not accept that as it's not biblical. Unfortunately, many Christian's do accept the trinity simply because it's been passed down to them. The majority that do accept the trinity view it differently though too.. Then how it is defined.
Some believe Jesus to be God but of different substance. And then you have those who believe Jesus and God are of the same substance. Which doesn't make sense but has been passed down.
Anyway, my church has taught that Jesus is simply the Son of God, separate entirely. Takes orders from God and is below God. Has been chosen to be savior and Redeemer. So yeah, not all Christian's believe Jesus is God incarcerated. Just wanted to clear that up.

I have the moment i heard this, this a very strange thing.

"Now the Pharisees who had been sent" John 1:24
"questioned him, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" John 1:25

Christianity agrees Elijah (John the Baptist - Muslim agree with him being Prophet Yahah (as) ).
Christianity agrees the Messiah (Jesus Christ - Muslims agree him being Isa ibn Maryam (as) the Messiah.
Christians stops there..why? The Jews HAD the knowledge about 3 to appear, Elijah, Messiah and the prophet.

What bothers me is Islam is the ONLY religion of the three that acknowledges all these three persons already have appeared. If we look at what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has said, it is ONLY good about Jesus(as). So still i am kind of puzzled what is going on with Christians not accepting also the Prophet? Are the teachings of paul so far in the core of the heart of many Christians that they want a "safety net" that they have a guarantee of being saved just by accepting Jesus dying for their sins?

Just you believing something, doesn't make it fact you know. There are for example atheist that without a doubt in their heart have concluded that there is no god and no day of judgement. However somebody just believing Day of judgement doesn't exist, doesn't make it a fact it doesn't exist.

[Robrog8999]

I will accept that. The Jews also rejected Muhammad (pbuh).

My main thought on this is that although the Christians accepted Jesus (pbuh) then, mostly the Christians of today do not follow his preaching but instead they follow Paul.

What is the implication? Imagine now that Jesus does make his second return, what will he be saying? Will he be agreeing to Paul's teachings? Would he celebrate Christmas? Did he not fast for 40 days in lent? Did he not pray by putting his head to the ground, circumcised, eat kosher food etc, and does it not appear more to be like what islam preaches? Especially about the Oneness of God, and he never claimed divinity. If Jesus returned and practiced what he did 2000 years ago, would the Christians recognise him?

Don't mean to offend with this, just asking a question. Hence the OP..


:peace:

Well many Christian's are in error today, in my opinion. The teaching of the trinity for example, totally man made teaching and has no biblical ground. Yet the vast majority of Christian's accept it (without looking into it or even studying what it is) and kind of just blindly accept it as truth because it's peached in their churches.
I, however, do not accept the trinity as Jesus never claimed to be God. In fact, he showed himself to be below God when he says what he knows and teaches, comes from the father ... And he even stated that God was greater then he. Clearly, Jesus was below God. But tell most Christian's that and they'll try to tell you your not a true Christian if you don't accept Jesus as God.
But again, most not even having studied it or looked into it's meaning and history.
Christianity is similar to Islam in many ways but also very different. When it comes to being saved in the Christian view, Islam is different. As you can only be saved by accepting Jesus as savior and Redeemer, our only way to heaven. In Islam, Jesus is not savior, he's just a mere prophet , like that of old (Noah, Abraham etc.)
Jesus is not God (in my understanding and beliefs) but he is the son of God, first created and the highest in ranking amongst all of us. He was chosen as savior and lived a perfect , sinless life in order to redeem us from sin. that doesn't make him God, but it does show how powerful and special Jesus is to God. Being the first created and having lived with God for much longer before we came to being.
But again, these are my beliefs. I don't write this as fact and the only truth. I simply write it out of my own personal faith. I could be wrong, and I accept that. Christianity in full could be wrong. Islam could be truth, or not. At the end of the day, none of us know anything. We simply choose to believe in something and we build faith on it.
And this is my faith.
And you didn't offend me at all, no worries. I am not easily offended at all. I respect all view points and understand that each of us have differing beliefs and backgrounds and I think it's great!

[Robrog8999]

I have the moment i heard this, this a very strange thing.

"Now the Pharisees who had been sent" John 1:24
"questioned him, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" John 1:25

Christianity agrees Elijah (John the Baptist - Muslim agree with him being Prophet Yahah (as) ).
Christianity agrees the Messiah (Jesus Christ - Muslims agree him being Isa ibn Maryam (as) the Messiah.
Christians stops there..why? The Jews HAD the knowledge about 3 to appear, Elijah, Messiah and the prophet.

What bothers me is Islam is the ONLY religion of the three that acknowledges all these three persons already have appeared. If we look at what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has said, it is ONLY good about Jesus(as). So still i am kind of puzzled what is going on with Christians not accepting also the Prophet? Are the teachings of paul so far in the core of the heart of many Christians that they want a "safety net" that they have a guarantee of being saved just by accepting Jesus dying for their sins?

Just you believing something, doesn't make it fact you know. There are for example atheist that without a doubt in their heart have concluded that there is no god and no day of judgement. However somebody just believing Day of judgement doesn't exist, doesn't make it a fact it doesn't exist.

You are correct. None of us know anything for fact. Unless one has spoken to God directly and received answers, were all in the dark. All we can do is look around at what we've got and study and research everything out there.. and after doing so, all we've got is to put our faith into one of these items (scripture, nature etc) and choose to rely on that and we then build hope into whatever that is. So yeah, I totally agree. None of us know. But we've got to beleive in something, right? It's only natural that man would have these questions. Their must be an explanation. And so that's what we do, were all seeking it in different ways.
I don't care what atheists say. They too have beleive in something, or will eventually. I don't beleive athiesm is a way. I look at is as a phase. Rather that be a God, many God's or nature, whatever it is....All people have thought of and hoped in something.
Anyway... That's my 2 cents.

[Simple_Person]

You are correct. None of us know anything for fact. Unless one has spoken to God directly and received answers, were all in the dark. All we can do is look around at what we've got and study and research everything out there.. and after doing so, all we've got is to put our faith into one of these items (scripture, nature etc) and choose to rely on that and we then build hope into whatever that is. So yeah, I totally agree. None of us know. But we've got to beleive in something, right? It's only natural that man would have these questions. Their must be an explanation. And so that's what we do, were all seeking it in different ways.
I don't care what atheists say. They too have beleive in something, or will eventually. I don't beleive athiesm is a way. I look at is as a phase. Rather that be a God, many God's or nature, whatever it is....All people have thought of and hoped in something.
Anyway... That's my 2 cents.

Yeah but it doesn't make sense from the sense of Christianity. If they have acknowledged Elijah and also acknowledged the Messiah, than for fact the prophet they also have to acknowledge. HOWEVER who is the prophet one might say right? Well he must already have come, because we according to Christianity live in the end times where Jesus (as) will come in his second coming, which MUSLIMS ALSO confirm this SAME believe of his second coming. So if he again returns, then we must look between now and his first coming. There is only 1 person that spoke of Jesus in such a high regard and respectful way. That person is Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). Besides that you see Muslims as being the second largest religion and still growing and some studies saying by 2050 or 2100 Islam will be the biggest religion on the face of the earth. So to my Christian brothers and sisters..doesn't this ignite some pondering that you indeed find this odd? We also believe in the anti-Christ. We believe in more things than Jews even believe in, so again...doesn't this ignite pondering that you think what is going on and maybe indeed better start digging in to Islam, as that might be the last scripture that the Almighty want me to follow?

So the question is, what keeps people in believing also in that prophet? I often have seen arrogance in some Christians. For example they make it comparison as ..ooh but Jesus is greater and better than Muhammad ...=_=!. What has greater and better to do with the real truth? You believe what God presents to you whatever that may be.

What makes you stop and becoming a Muslim? Don't answer this question to me, but answer this question to yourself.

[greenhill]

...... Christianity is similar to Islam in many ways but also very different. When it comes to being saved in the Christian view, Islam is different. As you can only be saved by accepting Jesus as savior and Redeemer, our only way to heaven. In Islam, Jesus is not savior, he's just a mere prophet , like that of old (Noah, Abraham etc.) .......

Yes, in a way you have highlighted the difference.

This is where (in a convoluted sense, much caused by the confusion of Paul's preachings) to present Jesus as the Saviour, a position never given to any of the other Abrahamic faith. The essence of Abrahamic faith is that the power belongs to God, in this case Allah, and not to any other appointed beings. Where we all seek His Mercy and Blessings and our proof is in our humanly attempt to follow his Commands which are 'told' to us by messengers (prophets). Like the Jewish faith before Christianity and the Muslim faith after (see the subtle difference here, the Jewish faith by its name belongs to the Jews, Christianity to those who follow Christ and Muslims just means 'submissive' to the will of Allah, not belonging to any sect or breed, but defined as people who have 'submitted') both Jews and Muslims appeal to Elloh and Allah respectively to grant them heaven but know that their deeds will be weighed in the balance. How they fared in executing God's commands. There is no short cut to heaven. In the Quran, it lays a very clear path to both destinations. Allah won't choose for us, we make our own choices. Then, in the hereafter, we answer for those choices...

As horrible as it may sound, yet we muslims believe this. It is most fair.

I don't write this as fact and the only truth. I simply write it out of my own personal faith. I could be wrong, and I accept that. Christianity in full could be wrong. Islam could be truth, or not. At the end of the day, none of us know anything. We simply choose to believe in something and we build faith on it.

I totally agree. Better that it be of your own 'weighed' personal faith, than be lead blindly :p For this, I have to suggest that you look up Jeffrey Lang on YouTube on 'the Purpose of Life'. As a muslim, I found it enlightening and a very solid grounding for me. It is in 2 parts and about 93 mins short. It is a bit slow to start but necessary, but the ending was a bit rushed. Too bad.

I respect all view points and understand that each of us have differing beliefs and backgrounds and I think it's great!

I think it is, too!



:peace:

[Robrog8999]

Yeah but it doesn't make sense from the sense of Christianity. If they have acknowledged Elijah and also acknowledged the Messiah, than for fact the prophet they also have to acknowledge. HOWEVER who is the prophet one might say right? Well he must already have come, because we according to Christianity live in the end times where Jesus (as) will come in his second coming, which MUSLIMS ALSO confirm this SAME believe of his second coming. So if he again returns, then we must look between now and his first coming. There is only 1 person that spoke of Jesus in such a high regard and respectful way. That person is Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). Besides that you see Muslims as being the second largest religion and still growing and some studies saying by 2050 or 2100 Islam will be the biggest religion on the face of the earth. So to my Christian brothers and sisters..doesn't this ignite some pondering that you indeed find this odd? We also believe in the anti-Christ. We believe in more things than Jews even believe in, so again...doesn't this ignite pondering that you think what is going on and maybe indeed better start digging in to Islam, as that might be the last scripture that the Almighty want me to follow?

So the question is, what keeps people in believing also in that prophet? I often have seen arrogance in some Christians. For example they make it comparison as ..ooh but Jesus is greater and better than Muhammad ...=_=!. What has greater and better to do with the real truth? You believe what God presents to you whatever that may be.

What makes you stop and becoming a Muslim? Don't answer this question to me, but answer this question to yourself.

What stops me from converting to Islam is the fact that I, personally,
deny Jesus Christ as God's Only Begotten, Savior and Redeemer and the only way to heaven. The Bible makes it perfectly​ clear that there is absolutely no other way. And in Islam, this is not accepted. As they hold Muhammad in a prominent position. The Bible makes no mention of Muhammad (obviously, as he was born much later after) and makes no hint or mention of him. Therefore, he and his claims aren't accepted in Christianity.
And that's major for me, as I cannot convert to a faith that doesn't follow Bible teachings. I hold the Bible very closely to my heart.
And this is MY belief. Rather it's 100 % true or not is unable to be proven (although the Bible cannot be disproven even after centuries of attsckd. Not to mention all the biblical predictions that's unfolded and continues to unfold) but it's what I accept as true and I build my life around this faith regardless. It's important to me nonetheless and with that said, I cannot choose to believe in something that goes against the Bible.
Hopefully that answers your question.
As far as the rest of your post goes, I don't understand what your saying or trying to ask me.
Jesus was born on Earth, grew up and taught us the teachings of God. He helped us understand scripture and teachings that were written down and came to show us how to live a righteous life. He made clear to us what God approved and disapproved of, lived a sinless life and then was put on the cross to be tortured and finally to be put to death in the place of us to save us from sin, the ultimate eternal penalty. He paid our debt that was brought upon us all via the first sin. So he was raised on the third day, spoke to many people and then returned to God.
Jesus said he will return again and when he does, it will be to rescue the saints and raise the dead. This will be the beginning of the end of this current system of things. Where judgment will come upon all and we will all receive our rightful place.
And that's what I beleive. Jesus is King of Kings, Lord and savior.

[Bobbyflay23]

What stops me from converting to Islam is the fact that I, personally,
deny Jesus Christ as God's Only Begotten, Savior and Redeemer and the only way to heaven. The Bible makes it perfectly​ clear that there is absolutely no other way. And in Islam, this is not accepted. As they hold Muhammad in a prominent position. The Bible makes no mention of Muhammad (obviously, as he was born much later after) and makes no hint or mention of him. Therefore, he and his claims aren't accepted in Christianity.
And that's major for me, as I cannot convert to a faith that doesn't follow Bible teachings. I hold the Bible very closely to my heart.
And this is MY belief. Rather it's 100 % true or not is unable to be proven (although the Bible cannot be disproven even after centuries of attsckd. Not to mention all the biblical predictions that's unfolded and continues to unfold) but it's what I accept as true and I build my life around this faith regardless. It's important to me nonetheless and with that said, I cannot choose to believe in something that goes against the Bible.
Hopefully that answers your question.
As far as the rest of your post goes, I don't understand what your saying or trying to ask me.
Jesus was born on Earth, grew up and taught us the teachings of God. He helped us understand scripture and teachings that were written down and came to show us how to live a righteous life. He made clear to us what God approved and disapproved of, lived a sinless life and then was put on the cross to be tortured and finally to be put to death in the place of us to save us from sin, the ultimate eternal penalty. He paid our debt that was brought upon us all via the first sin. So he was raised on the third day, spoke to many people and then returned to God.
Jesus said he will return again and when he does, it will be to rescue the saints and raise the dead. This will be the beginning of the end of this current system of things. Where judgment will come upon all and we will all receive our rightful place.
And that's what I beleive. Jesus is King of Kings, Lord and savior.

I see I don't want to argue but you talk about how there's no proof in Islam we believe not to follow a faith blindly even if your following Islam that's why god sent proof with Muhammad saw you can look up the many proofs listen to dr zakir naik also Muhammed is in the Bible just not by name dr zakir naik has gone over this and Muhammed was originally in the Torah but was removed from it there are many versions of the Bible so obviously things have been removed changed as for the Quran we have a tradition to protect corruption and there's only one book and we believe the Bible was correct it's just currently it isn't and we also believe jesus enters us into heaven depending on what you mean we must follow every single messenger to go heaven so if we don't follow one of the messengers then we cannot enter heaven but he Himself does not judge us or give us heaven that's gods job but if we deny one messenger just one then we are not a Monetheist believer in god (the reason why I say monortheist is some Christians thing our god is different because of his name no our allah is your original god allah is just the word in Arabic for god)anymore such not going to go much deeper because I don't want you to feel as if I'm criticizing it's just my views on Christianity also I didn't read this entire thread I just skipped to the end because I must sleep soon

[Robrog8999]

I see I don't want to argue but you talk about how there's no proof in Islam we believe not to follow a faith blindly even if your following Islam that's why god sent proof with Muhammad saw you can look up the many proofs listen to dr zakir naik also Muhammed is in the Bible just not by name dr zakir naik has gone over this and Muhammed was originally in the Torah but was removed from it there are many versions of the Bible so obviously things have been removed changed as for the Quran we have a tradition to protect corruption and there's only one book and we believe the Bible was correct it's just currently it isn't and we also believe jesus enters us into heaven depending on what you mean we must follow every single messenger to go heaven so if we don't follow one of the messengers then we cannot enter heaven but he Himself does not judge us or give us heaven that's gods job but if we deny one messenger just one then we are not a Monetheist believer in god (the reason why I say monortheist is some Christians thing our god is different because of his name no our allah is your original god allah is just the word in Arabic for god)anymore such not going to go much deeper because I don't want you to feel as if I'm criticizing it's just my views on Christianity also I didn't read this entire thread I just skipped to the end because I must sleep soon

Many Bible's? Yes many in print, as it's the most printed book in history. Or are you saying all the Bibles printed differ for one an another?
Sure. When you have a book that's published wodwide and in countless languages, of course your going to have Bible's that differ from each other. That's simply called translations. Languages vary from one to the next but they are pretty accurate. They all teach the same message. As far as stuff being removed from one Bible to the next, that's just silly. I would appreciate if you could provide me some evidence for these claims. As well as ones for Muhammad being mentioned. I'm highly interested.
Now.. I am aware that some writings were lit on fire and destroyed because they didn't appear to be legit. As to what writings were burnt, we'll never know. There's no way of finding out what was contained in those writings.
We can speculate but that's about it.
But I figure that is wasn't anything we needed. If so, an all powerful God wouldn't have allowed that to happen, or He would have recovered those writings or had them rewritten if they were important. Nothing is to short for God.

[Robrog8999]

I see I don't want to argue but you talk about how there's no proof in Islam we believe not to follow a faith blindly even if your following Islam that's why god sent proof with Muhammad saw you can look up the many proofs listen to dr zakir naik also Muhammed is in the Bible just not by name dr zakir naik has gone over this and Muhammed was originally in the Torah but was removed from it there are many versions of the Bible so obviously things have been removed changed as for the Quran we have a tradition to protect corruption and there's only one book and we believe the Bible was correct it's just currently it isn't and we also believe jesus enters us into heaven depending on what you mean we must follow every single messenger to go heaven so if we don't follow one of the messengers then we cannot enter heaven but he Himself does not judge us or give us heaven that's gods job but if we deny one messenger just one then we are not a Monetheist believer in god (the reason why I say monortheist is some Christians thing our god is different because of his name no our allah is your original god allah is just the word in Arabic for god)anymore such not going to go much deeper because I don't want you to feel as if I'm criticizing it's just my views on Christianity also I didn't read this entire thread I just skipped to the end because I must sleep soon

No, I don't feel like you're criticizing My Religion at all! Don't worry for that, you're okay. This is just called Q&A, debating and exploring. I like to learn about Islam as well, which is why I'm here. So no worries at all! Feel free to question me about whatever is on your mind, after all, that's what this is for, right?

[Bobbyflay23]

What I mean is that the Quran has the same meaning worldwide because we have maintained the language as I said I believe Christianity is the truth but has been changed I can give proof of Islam when I wake up tomorrow but when I say this don't get offended but it says in the Bible that the world is flat I believe Christianity is the truth as I said it has just been changed quite a bit and that's just one example you know I'll send you links to dr zakir naik talking about this stuff tomorrow he has studied comprtive religion quite a bit and shows that I believe in the book of gospel it makes reference to Muhammed saw also I believe he found somthing in the first testemant of god saying I am not a human being or somthing like that the proof of Islam gets very scientific and can go as far to him predicting the internet and porn and even back then in the Quran it had a exact in chonrical order of how baby's where born in the stomach but like while it's still at the microscopic level so no one could've known this until 100 years ago he also predicted headphones airplanes many things I believe the Bible still contains truth but allot of the truth has been changed and manipulated the two videos by dr zakir naik one of them is like 20 min long (it talks about the Bible and Muhammad saw) and there's another about the changes in the Bible I forgot how long it is and the last one is about a hour long going through allot of the evidences to why Islam has proof behind it again I have nothing against Christianity I just believe that much of it has been change we Muslims believe the same thing about the Jews

[Bobbyflay23]

Many Bible's? Yes many in print, as it's the most printed book in history. Or are you saying all the Bibles printed differ for one an another?
Sure. When you have a book that's published wodwide and in countless languages, of course your going to have Bible's that differ from each other. That's simply called translations. Languages vary from one to the next but they are pretty accurate. They all teach the same message. As far as stuff being removed from one Bible to the next, that's just silly. I would appreciate if you could provide me some evidence for these claims. As well as ones for Muhammad being mentioned. I'm highly interested.
Now.. I am aware that some writings were lit on fire and destroyed because they didn't appear to be legit. As to what writings were burnt, we'll never know. There's no way of finding out what was contained in those writings.
We can speculate but that's about it.
But I figure that is wasn't anything we needed. If so, an all powerful God wouldn't have allowed that to happen, or He would have recovered those writings or had them rewritten if they were important. Nothing is to short for God.

And nah there's like different bibles different Christians follow like how Mormans are completely different then Catholics what I mean is there's so many different sub genders of Christianity Islam is only one any way good night and sweet dreams when I have time I'll post the links to dr zakir naiks proof on the Bible and the Quran and all that stuff peace

[Robrog8999]

And nah there's like different bibles different Christians follow like how Mormans are completely different then Catholics what I mean is there's so many different sub genders of Christianity Islam is only one any way good night and sweet dreams when I have time I'll post the links to dr zakir naiks proof on the Bible and the Quran and all that stuff peace

That's because Christianity is such a large religion made up of so many people that some groups like to twist things .
But all teach the same fundamental thing, Jesus is savior and that's what it's about.
And no, the Bible doesn't not teach the world is flat..on the contrary, it teaches what it is. The Bible describes the world as being a ball or sphere. Way before anyone even knew this.
The earth is described in Job 26:7 as being suspended over empty space, implying a spherical figure. This notion is further entertained in Isaiah 40:21-22, which refers to “the circle of the earth.” This is further supported by Proverbs 8:27 , which speaks of God drawing a circle on the face of the deep. From a “bird’s-eye view” of the ocean, the horizon is seen as a circle. Such an observation indicates that where light terminates, darkness begins, describing the reality of day and night on a spherical earth.

[Robrog8999]

What I mean is that the Quran has the same meaning worldwide because we have maintained the language as I said I believe Christianity is the truth but has been changed I can give proof of Islam when I wake up tomorrow but when I say this don't get offended but it says in the Bible that the world is flat I believe Christianity is the truth as I said it has just been changed quite a bit and that's just one example you know I'll send you links to dr zakir naik talking about this stuff tomorrow he has studied comprtive religion quite a bit and shows that I believe in the book of gospel it makes reference to Muhammed saw also I believe he found somthing in the first testemant of god saying I am not a human being or somthing like that the proof of Islam gets very scientific and can go as far to him predicting the internet and porn and even back then in the Quran it had a exact in chonrical order of how baby's where born in the stomach but like while it's still at the microscopic level so no one could've known this until 100 years ago he also predicted headphones airplanes many things I believe the Bible still contains truth but allot of the truth has been changed and manipulated the two videos by dr zakir naik one of them is like 20 min long (it talks about the Bible and Muhammad saw) and there's another about the changes in the Bible I forgot how long it is and the last one is about a hour long going through allot of the evidences to why Islam has proof behind it again I have nothing against Christianity I just believe that much of it has been change we Muslims believe the same thing about the Jews

Yes, Muslims accept all 3 religions but , as you said, think the Bible has lost its meaning throughout time. Although, we know it has the same original meaning as the dead Sea scrolls confirm this.
I'm sure the Quran is a very intelligent book. But it's just hard for me to consider it as scripture for the simple fact that it was written so many years after the books of the Bible were written. I beleive scripture closed at the completion of the Bible. Writings of Muhammad didn't began until much later in time. And Muhammad is not mentioned in scrioture. If the Bible hinted at the fact that a prominent prophet would appear much later in time with more writings or teachings then I could see myself looking into it and considering it as fact. But it's not.
Im not saying it's not correct. As we don't know..none of us do..it's about faith and choosing what seems most truth worthy. And I personally, beleive the Bible to be much more trustworthy. With that said, If I beleive the Bible to be trustworthy and want to place my faith on it, I can't also choose to hold the Quran and Muhammad as scripture because that would contradict my original claim.
But I'm open to lesrning more about the Quran, Muhammad and Muslim history. I find it quite fascinating and would like to learn more for educational purposes so I appreciate your comments and point of view

[Simple_Person]

Yes, Muslims accept all 3 religions but , as you said, think the Bible has lost its meaning throughout time. Although, we know it has the same original meaning as the dead Sea scrolls confirm this.
I'm sure the Quran is a very intelligent book. But it's just hard for me to consider it as scripture for the simple fact that it was written so many years after the books of the Bible were written. I beleive scripture closed at the completion of the Bible. Writings of Muhammad didn't began until much later in time. And Muhammad is not mentioned in scrioture. If the Bible hinted at the fact that a prominent prophet would appear much later in time with more writings or teachings then I could see myself looking into it and considering it as fact. But it's not.
Im not saying it's not correct. As we don't know..none of us do..it's about faith and choosing what seems most truth worthy. And I personally, beleive the Bible to be much more trustworthy. With that said, If I beleive the Bible to be trustworthy and want to place my faith on it, I can't also choose to hold the Quran and Muhammad as scripture because that would contradict my original claim.
But I'm open to lesrning more about the Quran, Muhammad and Muslim history. I find it quite fascinating and would like to learn more for educational purposes so I appreciate your comments and point of view

Oke the train has started to leave (discussion has stared :) ). You said which scripture is more trustworthy. As an ex-atheist my arguments are mostly based on logic, rationality and reason.

I ask questions about all sort of things and have done it continously even with Islam and every time I get logical, rational and reasonable answers to it.

What the brother meant about different "versions" is literally different versions. In Islam there is the original and there are translations. Translations differ in wordings etc those are MADE by human beings. However we have the original Qur'an. If you open a Qur'an most of the time you see the Arabic (original text) and the translation beneath it.

In this case the questions that I asked Christianity is how come I for example borrowed money from person X and and did not pay him back. Why am I thrown in to prison so to say? Why can't you be thrown in prison instead?..I mean this is what you guys believe happened with Jesus. Some has done sin X but he must die for that sin YOU commit.

Instead of going further please answer this question first.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Simple_Person;

As an ex-atheist my arguments are mostly based on logic, rationality and reason.

That is pretty amazing, most atheists use reason to prove there is no god.

In this case the questions that I asked Christianity is how come I for example borrowed money from person X and and did not pay him back. Why am I thrown in to prison so to say? Why can't you be thrown in prison instead?..I mean this is what you guys believe happened with Jesus. Some has done sin X but he must die for that sin YOU commit.

Instead of going further please answer this question first.

Forgiveness is a profound subject that seems to defy human nature, logic, reason and rationality.

If I punched you on the nose, why would you forgive me? Your instinct would be to punch back or demand justice.

If I stole your car, you would demand it back and want the thief punished, why would you forgive them?

The prophet pbuh, suffered many injustices, and he forgave, he could only forgive people that needed to be forgiven. He had to suffer, in order that witnesses would see this, and they might be inspired to follow his example.

Imagine if the prophet pbuh, had lived a life of luxury and protected in his palace from worldy injustice. How could he then preach about forgiveness to his followers? They would say, it is ok for him to talk, he has not suffered himself.

Prophets are pious people who lead by example, they preach about things they do themselves.

When you look at the 99 names of Allah, it says three times, that Allah is the forgiver. Yet I have noticed over the years that many people on this forum have struggled with the notion of forgiving others. They also struggle with the idea that they can be forgiven themselves.

If I punched you on the nose and stole your car, I have broken Allah’s commandments, how can I be sure that Allah will forgive me? If I lost hope in the forgiveness of God, then this could lead to depression and a loss of faith. Christians also suffer and struggle with forgiveness when we sin against God.

If Allah forgives, then we should also strive to be like him, and also forgive others.

I am not sure how much further I should go. I am very conscious that I am a Christian on a Muslim forum, and I do not want to cause problems by expressing my faith too deeply.

But hopefully, this may lead you to think that there are some things about God – Allah that seem to defy human understanding, logic and reason.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of ‘One God’

Eric

[Simple_Person]

Greetings and peace be with you Simple_Person;



(1) That is pretty amazing, most atheists use reason to prove there is no god.




(2) Forgiveness is a profound subject that seems to defy human nature, logic, reason and rationality.

If I punched you on the nose, why would you forgive me? Your instinct would be to punch back or demand justice.

If I stole your car, you would demand it back and want the thief punished, why would you forgive them?

The prophet pbuh, suffered many injustices, and he forgave, he could only forgive people that needed to be forgiven. He had to suffer, in order that witnesses would see this, and they might be inspired to follow his example.

Imagine if the prophet pbuh, had lived a life of luxury and protected in his palace from worldy injustice. How could he then preach about forgiveness to his followers? They would say, it is ok for him to talk, he has not suffered himself.

Prophets are pious people who lead by example, they preach about things they do themselves.

When you look at the 99 names of Allah, it says three times, that Allah is the forgiver. Yet I have noticed over the years that many people on this forum have struggled with the notion of forgiving others. They also struggle with the idea that they can be forgiven themselves.

If I punched you on the nose and stole your car, I have broken Allah’s commandments, how can I be sure that Allah will forgive me? If I lost hope in the forgiveness of God, then this could lead to depression and a loss of faith. Christians also suffer and struggle with forgiveness when we sin against God.

If Allah forgives, then we should also strive to be like him, and also forgive others.

I am not sure how much further I should go. I am very conscious that I am a Christian on a Muslim forum, and I do not want to cause problems by expressing my faith too deeply.

But hopefully, this may lead you to think that there are some things about God – Allah that seem to defy human understanding, logic and reason.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of ‘One God’

Eric

Peace be upon you too,

(1) On the contrary, with LOGIC, RATIONALITY and REASON it is you can conclude the existence of a Creator. If one says based on logic, rationality and reason i have concluded there is no Creator, FOR SURE they by accident or WITH intention did not include certain data. Anyhow lets get back to the comment.

(2) Brother YOUR argument has cornered you. Let me show you how you cornered yourself. Indeed Allah tests the ones he loves the most with more severe tests. The prophets are the ones who have been tested the most and the most severe tests. You indeed say forgiveness is something and Allah does forgive. But Allah forgives without me sacrificing anybody's blood for it. I only have to seek forgiveness from Allah and He forgives me. This is LOGICAL, RATIONAL and REASONABLE even by HUMAN STANDARDS. You may have harmed me and after some time you realize this and come to me with humbleness and ask forgiveness from me. I without a second can say "I forgive you". I do not need money from you, or you to sacrifice an arm and a leg or whatever..i just can forgive you. So i may have suffered but that has ended and now forgiveness we continue to live our lives.

Yet what is it then about the whole "he died for our sins". So in other words you are saying "God is too weak/cruel and UNABLE to forgive people WITHOUT any sacrifice.". Let me repeat that again. So in other words you are saying "God is too weak/cruel and UNABLE to forgive people WITHOUT any sacrifice."

Before commenting, digest what i have said then you will see how illogical this "he(Jesus) died for our sins" is. We human beings can forgive people, however it depends SOLELY on EACH and every human being what their limits is of forgiveness. However Allah is THE MOST FORGIVING..THE MOST MERCIFUL. He has made it clear that even if you do shirk(worship somebody else besides Him) and repent, He will forgive you. If your sins reach the sky and you repent He will forgive you. The moment you enter Islam..ALL YOUR SINS will be forgiven and you have a clean slate. You have killed somebody in cold blood, He will forgive you..JUST repent that is ALL that He asks of you and turn back to Him.

So you see how LOGICAL, RATIONAL AND REASONABLE Islam is? Simple explanation for the most learned person to understand and the most illiterate person to understand. Also people like me who mostly follow the road of logic, rationality and reason ..my reaction is.."makes sense, i have nothing to add to it..". Can you see why more people are converting to Islam because it just makes sense. Also whole Day of Judgement the same..makes sense. You collect as many good deeds as possible, follow the road He has shows us to follow and by His mercy and us having submitted TO HIM..BY HIS will we enter paradise. Also..makes sense...very logical..

So take your time, i am not saying this because one might think i "hate" Christianity or "hate" any other religion by that matter. Allah has given us a brain to use and we are INSULTING HIM by not using this blessing (brain).

Peace.

[Bobbyflay23]

That's because Christianity is such a large religion made up of so many people that some groups like to twist things .
But all teach the same fundamental thing, Jesus is savior and that's what it's about.
And no, the Bible doesn't not teach the world is flat..on the contrary, it teaches what it is. The Bible describes the world as being a ball or sphere. Way before anyone even knew this.
The earth is described in Job 26:7 as being suspended over empty space, implying a spherical figure. This notion is further entertained in Isaiah 40:21-22, which refers to “the circle of the earth.” This is further supported by Proverbs 8:27 , which speaks of God drawing a circle on the face of the deep. From a “bird’s-eye view” of the ocean, the horizon is seen as a circle. Such an observation indicates that where light terminates, darkness begins, describing the reality of day and night on a spherical earth.

I have a friend that accepts Christianity specifically because they think the worlds flat when everyone thought the worlds flat they didn't think it was a square they thought it was a circle on Islam we call the world egg shaped which scientists recently confirmed this is true it's not a complete shere but that's off topic my friend Denys Islam specifically because we believe the worlds not flat then I've also heard from Christians before and Muslims that the Bible says that it's flat so idk maybe it says the it's a sphere and everybody's been lying to me but since most the people I know think it says it's flat and since most flat earth conspiracist say that the worlds flat but a disc with a hole in the middle I would assume Christianity is the thing that supplied the idea but I am not ignorant to the fact that the Bible is rephering to the world being a sphere but is just misinterpreted

[Scimitar]

I have a friend that accepts Christianity specifically because they think the worlds flat

they also thing the world is 6000 years old lol.

Bro, do your brain some justice, find new friends :D

Scimi

[Bobbyflay23]

His is a very short instance of it
https://youtu.be/bhtsRUXCATM talking about Muhammad in the Bible now I found one I don't feel like listening to it but here it is it's 3 hours long by dr zakir naik and the title says Muhammad in the Bible https://youtu.be/gtVhdsc_7J4

[Bobbyflay23]

As for proof of Muhammad being a prophet and Islam being the truth in religion I will start off my explaining why it couldn't have been corrupted and then I will link a video of dr zakir naik giving the logical proof so the reason why Islam couldn't have been corrupted is because of a oral tradition we have for Muslims we could throw away every single Quran away in the ocean we have millions of people in this world right now that have memorized the entire Quran and even if we didn't have those people say died off we have over a billion Muslims and every one of them that prays has memorized 2-5 chapters of the Quran if we get all the Muslims together we could make a new Quran tomorrow and if anyone lies obviously most of them will not lie so they would kick out the liar so by this we know that the Quran can not be eleminated or corrupted unless we kill all the Muslims and burn all the Qurans and as for Christians all you have to do is publish a bible with a few different words and say this is the Bible and there you go maybe some people won't follow it but later on after they have kids there kids couldnread it and like it because it says things that they like more then the original and this can happen for over a 1000 years and also as to what u said about the reason why there's allot of groups in Christianity we have 1.6 probably more Muslims in the world and there's only 1 other group of Muslims wich are the Shias but they are only 10% of the population and we do not consider them real Muslims because of so many things they do like making fun of the companions calling the prophets wife a cheater and all this stuff they are not true Muslims but they do follow Muhammad is the rasool and allah is god so therefore they are Muslims but they believe things like they're priests can see the unseen which is a major shirk so it takes them out of the fold of Islam this is according to the ahedith so essentially these guys believe Islam is the truth but they don't follow it correctly now here's a link to dr zakir naik and proof Muhammad is the messenger of god https://youtu.be/rdoCzv28IOw may god guide you to the best religion and most truthful one I believe it is Islam but that's just my opinion

[Bobbyflay23]

they also thing the world is 6000 years old lol.

Bro, do your brain some justice, find new friends :D

Scimi

I don't hang out with him anymore he'll get angry and scream at me for not believing the worlds flat

[Scimitar]

regarding the flat earth thing, i'm guessing he never heard of Terry Pratchett. He was the author of the DISC WORLD series of novels, a fantasy ok?

For decades, Terry Pratchett wove his stories into his fantasy disc world, and amassed hundreds of thousands of fans... on the 12th of March, 2015 - he died.

And all his DISC WORLD fans, had no more books to look forward to - I mean, these guys were hardcore role playing types if you know what I mean, so to have their guru die on them, left them in a bit of a void to put it mildly.

Small wonder then, that this void had to be filled and was done so via the internet and its social media. They tried to apply Terry Pratchett's logic to the earth and coupled this with "out of context" verses from the bible to push for a flat earth.

Moving onto the bible - the verses they use is the following:

Ezekiel 7:2 - Also thou son of man, thus saith the lord, an end has come upon the four corners of the land

Isaiah 11:12 - And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

and some more, but in all of these, the word used for corners in Hebrew is actually the word KANAPH, which has many meanings, but in context it refers to the "four cardinal DIRECTIONS (extremities) of the earth" - meaning, North South East and West.

Tell this to your friend, and let's see how green he is around the ears on his own bible.

I just got back from Speakers Corner, where I witnessed two Christians who claimed they both have the holy ghost - arguing with each other... the irony of their futility was lost on them totally.

but not on me.

Scimi

[Bobbyflay23]

Either way he'll think the worlds flat because of his "proof" about NASA faking stuff but the truth is NASA fakes stuff somtimes for good reasons like how the government spends all the money on warefare and they still have non fake stuff and also his proof about time lapses at looking at stars from the Antarctica because the stars spin and he claims if it was true the stars would be going everywhere since we are going fast in tons of different orbits because the sun moves earth moves and the planets move and since we are spinning that the stars would be going in a spiral but would go everywhere but the thing is its so far away that moving wouldn't do anything because that doesn't change our point of view but spinning would because that changed our point of view I'll tell him stuff like this but ittl go through one ear and out the other he'll interrupt me mid way and start screaming your soo f*****g dumb and he'll start calling me a sand n***er and like he gets really arrogant he also calls me close minded which is kinda hypocritical he never read any books on this stuff he's a dropout and he just watches YouTube videos about theory's and stuff he makes YouTube videos for a living and like idk he's pretty much brain washed later he told me that he used to worship Satan and he was a deviant and stuff so I honestly think that he just had disease in his heart and allah increased it due to his hatred towards him he's also very hypocritical but then he found the "truth" he thinks Christianity is corrupted and he doesn't claim to believe in any religion just god but whenever you talk about why he thinks the worlds flat he says the zionists are trying to cover up the truth and that the Bible says the worlds flat he's technically Christian but he doesn't really follow the faith or anything I don't really know what goes on in his mind I know I just ranted about how bad of a person he is but hey you don't know him that's not backbiting

[Bobbyflay23]

regarding the flat earth thing, i'm guessing he never heard of Terry Pratchett. He was the author of the DISC WORLD series of novels, a fantasy ok?

For decades, Terry Pratchett wove his stories into his fantasy disc world, and amassed hundreds of thousands of fans... on the 12th of March, 2015 - he died.

And all his DISC WORLD fans, had no more books to look forward to - I mean, these guys were hardcore role playing types if you know what I mean, so to have their guru die on them, left them in a bit of a void to put it mildly.

Small wonder then, that this void had to be filled and was done so via the internet and its social media. They tried to apply Terry Pratchett's logic to the earth and coupled this with "out of context" verses from the bible to push for a flat earth.

Moving onto the bible - the verses they use is the following:

Ezekiel 7:2 - Also thou son of man, thus saith the lord, an end has come upon the four corners of the land

Isaiah 11:12 - And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

and some more, but in all of these, the word used for corners in Hebrew is actually the word KANAPH, which has many meanings, but in context it refers to the "four cardinal DIRECTIONS (extremities) of the earth" - meaning, North South East and West.

Tell this to your friend, and let's see how green he is around the ears on his own bible.

I just got back from Speakers Corner, where I witnessed two Christians who claimed they both have the holy ghost - arguing with each other... the irony of their futility was lost on them totally.

but not on me.

Scimi

^^^^

[Scimitar]

Either way he'll think the worlds flat because of his "proof" about NASA faking stuff but the truth is NASA fakes stuff somtimes for good reasons like how the government spends all the money on warefare and they still have non fake stuff and also his proof about time lapses at looking at stars from the Antarctica because the stars spin and he claims if it was true the stars would be going everywhere since we are going fast in tons of different orbits because the sun moves earth moves and the planets move and since we are spinning that the stars would be going in a spiral but would go everywhere but the thing is its so far away that moving wouldn't do anything because that doesn't change our point of view but spinning would because that changed our point of view I'll tell him stuff like this but ittl go through one ear and out the other he'll interrupt me mid way and start screaming your soo f*****g dumb and he'll start calling me a sand n***er and like he gets really arrogant he also calls me close minded which is kinda hypocritical he never read any books on this stuff he's a dropout and he just watches YouTube videos about theory's and stuff he makes YouTube videos for a living and like idk he's pretty much brain washed later he told me that he used to worship Satan and he was a deviant and stuff so I honestly think that he just had disease in his heart and allah increased it due to his hatred towards him he's also very hypocritical but then he found the "truth" he thinks Christianity is corrupted and he doesn't claim to believe in any religion just god but whenever you talk about why he thinks the worlds flat he says the zionists are trying to cover up the truth and that the Bible says the worlds flat he's technically Christian but he doesn't really follow the faith or anything I don't really know what goes on in his mind I know I just ranted about how bad of a person he is but hey you don't know him that's not backbiting

Ask a Jew if the world is flat - they know their bible better than Christians do. ;)

You'll have all you need! Once proven that the earth is not flat, you can ask him why he has taken Terry Pratchett for his messiah and not Jesus :D

Scimi

[Robrog8999]

Oke the train has started to leave (discussion has stared :) ). You said which scripture is more trustworthy. As an ex-atheist my arguments are mostly based on logic, rationality and reason.

I ask questions about all sort of things and have done it continously even with Islam and every time I get logical, rational and reasonable answers to it.

What the brother meant about different "versions" is literally different versions. In Islam there is the original and there are translations. Translations differ in wordings etc those are MADE by human beings. However we have the original Qur'an. If you open a Qur'an most of the time you see the Arabic (original text) and the translation beneath it.

In this case the questions that I asked Christianity is how come I for example borrowed money from person X and and did not pay him back. Why am I thrown in to prison so to say? Why can't you be thrown in prison instead?..I mean this is what you guys believe happened with Jesus. Some has done sin X but he must die for that sin YOU commit.

Instead of going further please answer this question first.

Because he's loves us and chose to save us out of love for us. He knew that we were doomed without him and because he loves us so much, he decided to come and die in our place. As we ourselves cannot do that. We're sinful and the atonement has to be done by one who is clean and pure. Jesus was the only clean and pure person. He is son of God and although not God himself, he is higher then all of us. So he chose to die in our place (penalty for sin) and was raised 3 days later, therefore, completing the atonement in our behalf. Now, we must choose to accept and believe this and thank him for it in order to be saved.

[Robrog8999]

I have a friend that accepts Christianity specifically because they think the worlds flat when everyone thought the worlds flat they didn't think it was a square they thought it was a circle on Islam we call the world egg shaped which scientists recently confirmed this is true it's not a complete shere but that's off topic my friend Denys Islam specifically because we believe the worlds not flat then I've also heard from Christians before and Muslims that the Bible says that it's flat so idk maybe it says the it's a sphere and everybody's been lying to me but since most the people I know think it says it's flat and since most flat earth conspiracist say that the worlds flat but a disc with a hole in the middle I would assume Christianity is the thing that supplied the idea but I am not ignorant to the fact that the Bible is rephering to the world being a sphere but is just misinterpreted

Haha no. The Bible does not teach a flat Earth. It teaches what it is. And any Christian who believes its flat is denying both the Bible and science.

[Robrog8999]

they also thing the world is 6000 years old lol.

Bro, do your brain some justice, find new friends :D

Scimi

Right? No Christian I know beleive this. Heck, I don't know anyone who believes this. That's denying the facts. Ignorant people I guess.

[Robrog8999]

Ask a Jew if the world is flat - they know their bible better than Christians do. ;)

You'll have all you need! Once proven that the earth is not flat, you can ask him why he has taken Terry Pratchett for his messiah and not Jesus :D

Scimi

Your right. Most Jews do seem to know the bible better then most Christian's, sadly. It's such a large religion that there's so many off shoots and twisted teachings.
Christian's need to return to their Bible's and to God.

[Simple_Person]

Because he's loves us and chose to save us out of love for us. He knew that we were doomed without him and because he loves us so much, he decided to come and die in our place. As we ourselves cannot do that. We're sinful and the atonement has to be done by one who is clean and pure. Jesus was the only clean and pure person. He is son of God and although not God himself, he is higher then all of us. So he chose to die in our place (penalty for sin) and was raised 3 days later, therefore, completing the atonement in our behalf. Now, we must choose to accept and believe this and thank him for it in order to be saved.

Oke, just like brother Eric H, what you are saying is that God is too cruel OR too weak to forgive us without anybody dying?

By your definition of God I am better than that God you are describing. Why? Because if you have done a crime against me I can forgive you without any blood to be spilled YET the definition of that God of yours is unable. So by that standard means this God of yours is just too cruel of a God or too weak to just forgive people who ask for His forgiveness.

The definition of God in Islam is just EXACTLY that which I described as He forgiving me just when I ask sincerely for His forgiveness. He by all attributes outweighs me and is even the One who gives me everything that I have and use ...He has all from power to mercy to forgiveness to knowledge to wisdom etc.etc.etc. He is because of ALL of this is THE ONLY ONE WORTHY of worship. But if we look at how Christians describe their God then for sure this God of theirs is not worthy of worship as He is LIMITED in forgiving somebody without blood being spilled.

If you say no He is THE ONE worthy of worship then I ask you how come I AM BETTER than that God you describe when it comes to forgiveness?..

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Simple_Person;

Oke, just like brother Eric H, what you are saying is that God is too cruel OR too weak to forgive us without anybody dying?

The death and resurrection of Jesus is profound, and beyond my understanding. After Jesus is betrayed by his friend, condemned to death and nailed to a cross, he prays forgive them Father for they know not what they do. As Christians, we are expected to live our lives as Jesus lived his, but I wonder how many of us could forgive in the extreme way that Jesus forgave?

Somehow we are all brothers in faith, and I believe we should be an encouragement to each other despite all our differences.

May God bless you and all those you love and care for.

Eric

[Simple_Person]

Greetings and peace be with you Simple_Person;



The death and resurrection of Jesus is profound, and beyond my understanding. After Jesus is betrayed by his friend, condemned to death and nailed to a cross, he prays forgive them Father for they know not what they do. As Christians, we are expected to live our lives as Jesus lived his, but I wonder how many of us could forgive in the extreme way that Jesus forgave?

Somehow we are all brothers in faith, and I believe we should be an encouragement to each other despite all our differences.

May God bless you and all those you love and care for.

Eric

Brother that is still not answering the question. You saying "beyond my understanding" i agree, if something is beyond our understanding, God would not give us something that we are ONLY confused by. The definition of the Creator ONLY in Islam makes sense.

Yet you have not answered my question that according to my understanding i am MORE forgiving then the God according to Christians of today. I forgive people without them having to die for it. Even other Muslims are MORE forgiving then according to the definition of Christians of today. In Islamic law if somebody kills let's say a child of couple X, the couple can choose to forgive that individual and NOBODY has to die for it. So by the standards of MODERN DAY Christianity, ALL the Muslims by default are MORE forgiving then the definition they give God.

You agree to that? If not do please explain then to me how Muslims are not more forgiving then the definition Christians give God?

Peace

[Bobbyflay23]

Because he's loves us and chose to save us out of love for us. He knew that we were doomed without him and because he loves us so much, he decided to come and die in our place. As we ourselves cannot do that. We're sinful and the atonement has to be done by one who is clean and pure. Jesus was the only clean and pure person. He is son of God and although not God himself, he is higher then all of us. So he chose to die in our place (penalty for sin) and was raised 3 days later, therefore, completing the atonement in our behalf. Now, we must choose to accept and believe this and thank him for it in order to be saved.

You see why are we still alive if jesus (as) had to die for our sins to be forgiven then why not end the human race then all the bad deeds are gone because according to the Bible we are only on earth as a punishment for eating from the tree so this makes no sense should we not have been born shouldn't all the humans risen to heaven because jesus (as) died for our sins and also this makes no sense why does jesus (as) need to for our sins which have no connection to him for us to be forgiven like it's barbaric think about it someone kills your kids or somthing now would you go take someone else for sacrifice for forgiveness or would u kill the man who killed your kid why would the killing of jesus (as) be at that point of time since we are sinners too why not sacrifice him at the end of time it just makes no sense man

[Scimitar]

Right? No Christian I know beleive this. Heck, I don't know anyone who believes this. That's denying the facts. Ignorant people I guess.

I'm guessing you are referencing non church going Christians, flaky types.

The church going ones are taught the earth is 6000 years old. And that's a fact.

Scimi

[Scimitar]

Your right. Most Jews do seem to know the bible better then most Christian's, sadly.

Well, the Old Testament is revealed in their language - and not English lol, so yeah, you can't be surprised or bitter about it.

It's such a large religion that there's so many off shoots and twisted teachings.
Christian's need to return to their Bible's and to God.

Which version of the NT bible? and which god?

Scimi

[Insaanah]

Greetings Robrog8999 and a belated welcome to the forum.

Because he's loves us and chose to save us out of love for us.

Really? Let us examine this more closely.

Christianity hinges on the fact, that according to Christians, God did not forgive Adam (peace be upon him) for eating from the tree, and that not only Adam but all subsequent generations have to bear a punishment from God, and fell out of grace with God, their relationship with God was severed, they are born into a state of sin, and death entered the world. They believe that God expects perfection from humans which humans can never achieve (partly because of the aforementioned sin), thus to atone for our imperfection and inability to meet God's expectation, and to reconcile people to God and repair the severed relationship, and to forgive (but in reality atone) people's sins, the sacrifice of an innocent man (who also happens to be God and/or his son) and his slow, bloody, and painful death comes into play. That is not love. That is injustice and cruelty.

With Allah forgiving Adam (peace be upon him) and honouring him and guiding him, as per Islam, none of the above is needed. In Islam, there is no concept of original sin, nor of God expecting perfection which cannot be achieved, nor of a broken relationship with God that requires reconciling, nor of damnation requiring a saviour. No innocent person is made to suffer or die for other's sins.

In Islam, as Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) asked for forgiveness and were forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God, or any purchase price. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Loving, Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam.

In Islam, while guidance and the right way has been shown to us, we, as humans, have the freedom to choose, to err, and to repent sincerely, and should we do so, we will find Allah Kind & Forgiving. For all and any in the posterity of Adam, the door of returning to the right path is always open, prior to death.

We are required to struggle, and to make effort, and to show our commitment on our part, by believing and doing good deeds, and obeying God, and the teachings he sent His messengers with. Ultimately, salvation is through Allah's mercy.

It is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. This is not forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Some of the other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf. In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will.

The favourite Christian line from the bible, "For God so loved the world...(John 3:16)" when scrutinized, if you take it right back to why "...He gave his only son", doesn't add up at all. It shows a God who will not forgive, punishes other people for a sin they didn't commit, cuts off his relationship with them, makes them fall out of His grace, and makes them born into a state of sin, and has an innocent man killed in a torturous death to repair all of that. This paints the picture of an unforgiving, punishing, and unjust God, not a loving one.

Please ponder and reflect, and re-evaluate and reassess the basis for your own beliefs and doctrines. And it is that to which all people are invited by the Qur'an. Your beliefs regarding God, and which faith you follow, are the biggest, most serious and most important decisions you will ever make, as this life will end one day for all of us, and our position regarding God and His messengers is what makes or breaks our hereafter, which is forever. You owe it to yourself, to not regret in the hereafter, when it'll be too late. Please make the time for it. It'll be the most important thing you ever do. I invite you to believe in God who does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, spouses, siblings, parents, cousins, nephews or relatives of any sort. A God Who is Eternal and does not die. A God Who did not/does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

As you can see, the concept of God in Islam is clear, simple, logical, makes sense, and befits the Majesty of God. I invite you to join us in knowing, believing and accepting that.

Peace.

[anatolian]

Jews are waiting for their Messiah still to come but neither Jews nor Christians are waiting for a final prophet after the Messiah as far as I know. However, we believe it was written in their scriptures that there would be a final prophet after the Messiah.

Quran 61:6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Taurat (Law) (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "This is evident sorcery!"

And their scolars knew it ver well but hide it.

Quran 2:146 Those whom We have given the Book recognize him (Mohammed) as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know (it).

Jews and Christians claim that there is no mention of a final prophet after the Messiah in their scriptures but they cannot explain the below verses:

John:19 ¶ And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.

25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

John 7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?

So, Jews were waiting for "that Prophet" seperately from the Christ. Later they seem to forget it. Christians completely ignored it as well.

[tolpuddle]

I'm guessing you are referencing non church going Christians, flaky types.

The church going ones are taught the earth is 6000 years old. And that's a fact.

Scimi

The only churches which teach that the world is only 6,000 years old, are the Fundamentalist ones.

Who are a minority even within the Protestant world, itself a minority of Christians.

[tolpuddle]

Jews are waiting for their Messiah still to come but neither Jews nor Christians are waiting for a final prophet after the Messiah as far as I know. However, we believe it was written in their scriptures that there would be a final prophet after the Messiah.

Quran 61:6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Taurat (Law) (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "This is evident sorcery!"

And their scolars knew it ver well but hide it.

Quran 2:146 Those whom We have given the Book recognize him (Mohammed) as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know (it).

Jews and Christians claim that there is no mention of a final prophet after the Messiah in their scriptures but they cannot explain the below verses:

John:19 ¶ And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.

25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

John 7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?

So, Jews were waiting for "that Prophet" seperately from the Christ. Later they seem to forget it. Christians completely ignored it as well.

Jews don't regard Mohammed as The Prophet referred to by Moses.

Christians don't recognise any Prophecy subsequent to the completion of the Christian Scriptures c. 100 CE.

[greenhill]

Jews don't regard Mohammed as The Prophet referred to by Moses.

Christians don't recognise any Prophecy subsequent to the completion of the Christian Scriptures c. 100 CE.

Hence why we have 3.... as you said about not recognising prophecy, despite having reference of him.


:peace:

[tolpuddle]

The Crucifixion is loving sacrifice (by God to God), human injustice and cruelty borne - on behalf of humanity.

And also war - upon satan, whose hold upon humanity had to be broken; as Jesus said "Now is the hour for the Prince of this world to be overthrown !"

The cruelty is that of satan; and of humanity.

God is Justice and Reason, hence will not wave away the demands of Justice. Justice demands that all adult people should go to Hell - to prevent this, God in His Mercy paid the price on our behalf; ransomed us. Thus making it POSSIBLE for us to be forgiven; no atonement, no forgiveness.

This doesn't take away from God's Power or God's Mercy; it reveals Him to be rational, not arbitrary. Without the Atonement, God's readiness to forgive us would be capricious, not reasoned. And reasonable, God is - otherwise, nature, the universe, wouldn't be reasonable, following fixed laws.

Atonement = At-one-ment; Reconciliation.

God is, of course, absolutely One; but within that Oneness, there is Threeness, in no way contradicting the Oneness. God is Mind-Thought-Love; family in other words, yet absolutely One.

God doesn't have a Son (that is symbolic, theological terminology, without its usual meaning); the "Son of God" = God.

Mysterious ? - well, yes - God IS mysterious (the more mysterious the more you think of God), His existence (before, above and outside time) a complete mystery.

Since you warn non-Muslims of possible eternal loss if they don't embrace Islam, I will say this:

1) IF I forsook Christianity, THEN I would be terrified of going to hell. And would deserve to, having rejected Light and the Fullness of Truth for a poor substitute.
2) This doesn't apply to Muslims; who, frankly, don't know any better; even those of them best informed about Christianity, are viewing it through Muslim spectacles.
3) I don't regard Christians who have become Muslims as apostates - if they had ever truly understood Christianity, they would still be Christians.

[Amor101]

I will accept that. The Jews also rejected Muhammad (pbuh).

My main thought on this is that although the Christians accepted Jesus (pbuh) then, mostly the Christians of today do not follow his preaching but instead they follow Paul.

What is the implication? Imagine now that Jesus does make his second return, what will he be saying? Will he be agreeing to Paul's teachings? Would he celebrate Christmas? Did he not fast for 40 days in lent? Did he not pray by putting his head to the ground, circumcised, eat kosher food etc, and does it not appear more to be like what islam preaches? Especially about the Oneness of God, and he never claimed divinity. If Jesus returned and practiced what he did 2000 years ago, would the Christians recognise him?

Don't mean to offend with this, just asking a question. Hence the OP..


:peace:

Arguing beliefs? :) I was told that the Bible cannot be traced back to Prophet Jesus, pbuh. The Qur'an has the chain of narrations(senad) which is used by all historians in all fields and it is the only accurate way of knowing the realities of the past. Our Qur'an has chain of narrations, Bible doesn't. The Bible means a book. The Bible is a collection of previous books revealed to previous prophets.

Muslims don't just believe in one book, but all books that were revealed to previous prophets.

[greenhill]

Not really arguing beliefs, just asking a question relating to the OP.


:peace:

[MuhammadHamza1]

A recent post made me ponder.. but this is not the best place to ask, being an islamic site and all ;) but I see many Christians in here and ex Christians too!

What it's essentially about is that in islam, it is basic to have learnt about the 25 prophets. The message is understood via the historical lessons given to man throughout the ages as they collectively progressed in these stories. So for those who accept islam, they are already following the final messenger and they are settled...

What is not settled is that we know the Jews are still awaiting their final(?) messenger. They rejected Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them both. Christians rejected Muhammad (pbuh), so are they waiting for a final messenger or have they settled for what is brought to them by the Bible? or: There are no more messengers! Or : Don't know?

Or am I not clear?



:peace:

They are merely waiting for a SAVIOR.
Saviot from agony and misery and one who guides it to peace.
Christians say Jesus will return again and that is how it will happen.
Muslims say Al Mahdi and Jesus both will do it.
Jews have a separate person who will serve the same purpose according to them.

[MuhammadHamza1]

Do not use Science as an argument.
THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY IS LYING TO YOU.
Do not trust them.
The way to understand a religion,is by
CRITICAL THINKING.
Because "Truth fears no investigation."
It is not a coincidence that the Quran Again and again asks you to think and consider.
Truth fears no investigation.

[tolpuddle]

Well, the Old Testament is revealed in their language - and not English lol, so yeah, you can't be surprised or bitter about it.



Which version of the NT bible? and which god?

Scimi

The only valid version of the New Testament is that approved by the Roman Catholic Church.

There is only One God worshipped by Christians - the God of Abraham, worshipped also by Muslims and Jews.

[tolpuddle]

Hence why we have 3.... as you said about not recognising prophecy, despite having reference of him.


:peace:

Neither Christians nor Jews regard any passage of their scriptures as referring to Mohammed.

[Abz2000]

Neither Christians nor Jews regard any passage of their scriptures as referring to Mohammed.

Neither do jews regard any passage in the old testament as referring in any positive light to Jesus.
That doesn't necessarily make them correct in their illogical and unjustly biased denials. It just makes them "infidels".


What Allah has confirmed as being true - is true, since there is no doubt about Allah.

Most of us now believe through scriptural analysis and logical reasoning that Jesus (first appearance) (pbu"h") did not lack melanin and was not therefore blond haired and blue eyed, but this excerpt from an article on albinism is worth pondering:




Many cultures around the world have developed beliefs regarding people with albinism.

In African countries such as Tanzania[22] and Burundi,[23][24] there has been an unprecedented rise in witchcraft-related killings of people with albinism in recent years, because their body parts are used in potions sold by witchdoctors.[25] Numerous authenticated incidents have occurred in Africa during the 21st century.[26][27][28][29] For example, in Tanzania, in September 2009, three men were convicted of killing a 14-year-old albino boy and severing his legs in order to sell them for witchcraft purposes.[30] Again in Tanzania and Burundi in 2010, the murder and dismemberment of a kidnapped albino child was reported from the courts,[23] as part of a continuing problem. National Geographic estimates that in Tanzania a complete set of albino body parts is worth $75,000.[31][32]

Another harmful and false belief is that sex with an albinistic woman will cure a man of HIV. This has led, for example in Zimbabwe, to rapes (and subsequent HIV infection).[33]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albinism



29“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’c ”

From Matthew 23




1. Praise be to Allah, Who hath sent to His Servant the Book, and hath allowed therein no Crookedness:

2. (He hath made it) Straight (and Clear) in order that He may warn (the godless) of a terrible Punishment from Him, and that He may give Glad Tidings to the Believers who work righteous deeds, that they shall have a goodly Reward,

3. Wherein they shall remain for ever:

4. Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, "(Allah) hath begotten a son":

5. No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying what they say is nothing but falsehood!

6. Thou wouldst only, perchance, fret thyself to death, following after them, in grief, if they believe not in this Message.

7. That which is on earth we have made but as a glittering show for the earth, in order that We may test them - as to which of them are best in conduct.

8. Verily what is on earth we shall make but as dust and dry soil (without growth or herbage).

From Quran, Chapter 18

[Insaanah]

Neither Christians nor Jews regard any passage of their scriptures as referring to Mohammed.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
like unto thee,
and I will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (Deuteronomy.18:18).

First thing is "a prophet from among their brethren". Note that it does not say "from among them" but "from among their brethren". Who are the brethren of the israelites? The ishmaelites! If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham (peace be upon them all), then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the brethren of the children of the other. So God is telling you that a Prophet will come, who is a descendent of Ishmael (peace be upon him).

Next: "Like unto thee".

Some say the verses refer to Jesus (peace be upon him) but let's put that to the test and examine the "like"s:

Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) had a mother and father, Jesus (pbuh) did not.
Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) had a normal birth, Jesus (pbuh) did not.
Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) married and had children, Jesus (pbuh) did not.
Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) were accepted by their people in their lifetime, while Jesus (pbuh) on the whole was not accepted by the Jews he was sent to.
Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) died natural deaths, Jesus (pbuh) did not.
And the list goes on...

So the Prophet like unto Moses (peace be upon him) is Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Next:"And I will put my words into his mouth"

History tells us that Muhummad (pbuh) was forty years of age. He was in a cave some three miles north of the City of Mecca. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue: 'Iqra'' which means Read! or Proclaim! or Recite! Muhummed (pbuh) was terrified and in his bewilderment replied that he was not learned! The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues.

Now Muhummad (pbuh) grasps what was required of him was to repeat. And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth:

"Read! In the name of your Lord and Cherisher, who created-
Created man, from a clinging substance:

Read! And thy Lord is most bountiful,-
He who taught (the use of) the pen,

Taught man that which he knew not".
(Holy Qur'an 96:1-5)

These are the first five verses which were revealed to Prophet Muhummad (peace be upon him) which now occupy the beginning of the 96th chapter of the Holy Qur'an.

"If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." (Deuteronomy 18:19)

"in my name" -113 chapters of the Qur'an as revealed by Allah to, and spoken by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) all begin with "In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful." God's words, spoken by the Prophet, in His name. With this formula in fact, Muslims begin every lawful act. And in the first revelation to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), mentioned above, what were the words that came immediately after Read? Have a look... "in the name of your Lord."

The Prophecy is fulfilled in Prophet Muhummad (peace be upon him) to the letter.

"If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." (Deuteronomy 18:19)

So God is telling you in the Bible to believe in prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). And I invite you to do so.

O Mankind, the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; it is better for you. But if you disbelieve - then indeed, to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth. And ever is Allah Knowing and Wise. (Qur'an 4:70)

Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. (7:158)

The Crucifixion is loving sacrifice

There is nothing loving about such a notion or concept.

With Allah forgiving Adam (peace be upon him) and honouring him and guiding him, as per Islam, none of the above is needed. In Islam, there is no concept of original sin, nor of God expecting perfection which cannot be achieved, nor of a broken relationship with God that requires reconciling, nor of damnation requiring a saviour. No innocent person is made to suffer or die for other's sins.

In Islam, as Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) asked for forgiveness and were forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God, or any purchase price. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Loving, Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam:

See the following verse translations from the Qur'an:

They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers." (7:23)
Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. (2:37)
Then his Lord chose him and turned to him in forgiveness and guided [him]. (20:122)

Prophet Adam (peace be upon him) repented sincerely, so God forgave him. As simple as that. No sacrifice needed.

I find Islam to be the only religion that recognises Allah's power to forgive with just His will. All other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf.

In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/can not: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting Allaah's will.

That is love - not a painful, torturous, and slow sacrifice.

Without the Atonement, God's readiness to forgive us would be capricious, not reasoned. And reasonable, God is - otherwise, nature, the universe, wouldn't be reasonable, following fixed laws.

Atonement = At-one-ment; Reconciliation.

It is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. This is not forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection.

God is, of course, absolutely One; but within that Oneness, there is Threeness, in no way contradicting the Oneness.

It absolutely and completely contradicts oneness.

Let's take the number 1. That number can be manipulated, by multiplying, dividing, adding or subtracting.

This is what various groups of people have wrongly done over the years with their beliefs about God.

Some have multiplied the number, and believe in many gods.

Others have divided the number, and believe in many gods in one, such as the trinity (or 3 = 1 or 1 = 3)

Some have added, by worshipping God, but then also worshipping and praying to others such as Mary (peace be on her), or saints etc along with Him.

And others, such as atheists, have subtracted, by saying there is no God.

Regardless of what people do to the number 1, it always remains the number 1 and does not itself change, and cannot itself never not be 1.

So what is the original and true belief without any change or manipulation?

1.

1slam.

Mysterious ? - well, yes - God IS mysterious (the more mysterious the more you think of God), His existence (before, above and outside time) a complete mystery.

In Islam there are no such mysteries or mental acrobatics to contend with. The concept of God is clear, simple, logical, makes sense, and befits the Majesty of God. Anyone from a young toddler, can understand, that:


There is only One God. He alone should be worshipped. He is our Creator, Sustainer, and Lord.

He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, spouses, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any sort.

He is eternal and does not die. He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.

There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, Incomparable, the Creator of the Universe.

He did not/does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, nor any intermediaries. And no denying of God's existence either.

There are no sharers, associates, persons or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense. One truly means One.

Peace.

[tolpuddle]

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
like unto thee,
and I will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." (Deuteronomy.18:18).

First thing is "a prophet from among their brethren". Note that it does not say "from among them" but "from among their brethren". Who are the brethren of the israelites? The ishmaelites! If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham (peace be upon them all), then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the brethren of the children of the other. So God is telling you that a Prophet will come, who is a descendent of Ishmael (peace be upon him).

Next: "Like unto thee".

Some say the verses refer to Jesus (peace be upon him) but let's put that to the test and examine the "like"s:

Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) had a mother and father, Jesus (pbuh) did not.
Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) had a normal birth, Jesus (pbuh) did not.
Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) married and had children, Jesus (pbuh) did not.
Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) were accepted by their people in their lifetime, while Jesus (pbuh) on the whole was not accepted by the Jews he was sent to.
Both Moses (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) died natural deaths, Jesus (pbuh) did not.
And the list goes on...

So the Prophet like unto Moses (peace be upon him) is Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Next:"And I will put my words into his mouth"

History tells us that Muhummad (pbuh) was forty years of age. He was in a cave some three miles north of the City of Mecca. In the cave the Archangel Gabriel commands him in his mother tongue: 'Iqra'' which means Read! or Proclaim! or Recite! Muhummed (pbuh) was terrified and in his bewilderment replied that he was not learned! The angel commands him a second time with the same result. For the third time the angel continues.

Now Muhummad (pbuh) grasps what was required of him was to repeat. And he repeats the words as they were put into his mouth:

"Read! In the name of your Lord and Cherisher, who created-
Created man, from a clinging substance:

Read! And thy Lord is most bountiful,-
He who taught (the use of) the pen,

Taught man that which he knew not".
(Holy Qur'an 96:1-5)

These are the first five verses which were revealed to Prophet Muhummad (peace be upon him) which now occupy the beginning of the 96th chapter of the Holy Qur'an.

"If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." (Deuteronomy 18:19)

"in my name" -113 chapters of the Qur'an as revealed by Allah to, and spoken by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) all begin with "In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful." God's words, spoken by the Prophet, in His name. With this formula in fact, Muslims begin every lawful act. And in the first revelation to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), mentioned above, what were the words that came immediately after Read? Have a look... "in the name of your Lord."

The Prophecy is fulfilled in Prophet Muhummad (peace be upon him) to the letter.

"If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." (Deuteronomy 18:19)

So God is telling you in the Bible to believe in prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). And I invite you to do so.

O Mankind, the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; it is better for you. But if you disbelieve - then indeed, to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth. And ever is Allah Knowing and Wise. (Qur'an 4:70)

Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. (7:158)



There is nothing loving about such a notion or concept.

With Allah forgiving Adam (peace be upon him) and honouring him and guiding him, as per Islam, none of the above is needed. In Islam, there is no concept of original sin, nor of God expecting perfection which cannot be achieved, nor of a broken relationship with God that requires reconciling, nor of damnation requiring a saviour. No innocent person is made to suffer or die for other's sins.

In Islam, as Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) asked for forgiveness and were forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God, or any purchase price. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Loving, Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam:

See the following verse translations from the Qur'an:

They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers." (7:23)
Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. (2:37)
Then his Lord chose him and turned to him in forgiveness and guided [him]. (20:122)

Prophet Adam (peace be upon him) repented sincerely, so God forgave him. As simple as that. No sacrifice needed.

I find Islam to be the only religion that recognises Allah's power to forgive with just His will. All other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf.

In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/can not: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting Allaah's will.

That is love - not a painful, torturous, and slow sacrifice.



It is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. This is not forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection.



It absolutely and completely contradicts oneness.

Let's take the number 1. That number can be manipulated, by multiplying, dividing, adding or subtracting.

This is what various groups of people have wrongly done over the years with their beliefs about God.

Some have multiplied the number, and believe in many gods.

Others have divided the number, and believe in many gods in one, such as the trinity (or 3 = 1 or 1 = 3)

Some have added, by worshipping God, but then also worshipping and praying to others such as Mary (peace be on her), or saints etc along with Him.

And others, such as atheists, have subtracted, by saying there is no God.

Regardless of what people do to the number 1, it always remains the number 1 and does not itself change, and cannot itself never not be 1.

So what is the original and true belief without any change or manipulation?

1.

1slam.



In Islam there are no such mysteries or mental acrobatics to contend with. The concept of God is clear, simple, logical, makes sense, and befits the Majesty of God. Anyone from a young toddler, can understand, that:


There is only One God. He alone should be worshipped. He is our Creator, Sustainer, and Lord.

He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, spouses, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any sort.

He is eternal and does not die. He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.

There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, Incomparable, the Creator of the Universe.

He did not/does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, nor any intermediaries. And no denying of God's existence either.

There are no sharers, associates, persons or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense. One truly means One.

Peace.

The brethren of Israelites are - Israelites. As Christians, we don't for a moment regard the verse of Deuteronomy you quote, as referring to Mohammed. Neither for a moment, do Jews. One of the many reasons for this is that "prophets don't come with the sword." The only prophet who did, is Mohammed, this in itself disqualifying him as a prophet in the eyes of Christians and of Jews.

God operates via Law, not arbitrary caprice; thus sin requires payment to be made: God has made this payment on our behalf.

The "son" of God (God) has existed from the Beginning - thus long before Adam and Eve fell into sin. God is absolutely One and yet, within that Oneness is Threeness, Trinity. Applying a naive human logic to this - as you have tried to do - is in vain; since God is above and beyond human logic.

God is Mind and Creator ("Father"), in that Mind is Thought ("Word", "Son") and uniting the two is Love (the Holy Spirit). The (undivided) threeness within the absolute Oneness of God is inescapable.

God is constantly involved in Creation, is present everywhere in Creation - therefore can most certainly take on human form and nature.

The Muslim understanding of God is simplistic, not simple. No one can ever even begin to understand God - the Christian idea of God recognises this; yet is eminently reasonable. Christians do, of course, worship the One God.

Catholic prayer involving Mary or other saints, is prayer to God THROUGH them, not TO them - we do NOT worship Mary or the saints, which would of course be idolatry.

[MuhammadHamza1]

The Crucifixion is,with due respect,a disgusting act.
It was a Pagan practice.
And my main point is this.
IT CONTRADICTS THE BELIEFS OF THE FORMER PROPHETS OF TORAH REGARDING ATONEMENT OF SINS.
It is rejected in The Torah.
And we have many reasons to reject that JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS.
It contradicts the sign that Jesus said will be a miracle for the Jews.The sign of Jonah to be precise.
And also because The New Testament cannot be trusted and taken and quoted as a sufficient source alone.
Please be critical of Religions.That is the way to understanding.
I am sure you will agree with me.

[MuhammadHamza1]

The brethren of Israelites are - Israelites. As Christians, we don't for a moment regard the verse of Deuteronomy you quote, as referring to Mohammed. Neither for a moment, do Jews. One of the many reasons for this is that "prophets don't come with the sword." The only prophet who did, is Mohammed, this in itself disqualifying him as a prophet in the eyes of Christians and of Jews.

God operates via Law, not arbitrary caprice; thus sin requires payment to be made: God has made this payment on our behalf.

The "son" of God (God) has existed from the Beginning - thus long before Adam and Eve fell into sin. God is absolutely One and yet, within that Oneness is Threeness, Trinity. Applying a naive human logic to this - as you have tried to do - is in vain; since God is above and beyond human logic.

God is Mind and Creator ("Father"), in that Mind is Thought ("Word", "Son") and uniting the two is Love (the Holy Spirit). The (undivided) threeness within the absolute Oneness of God is inescapable.

God is constantly involved in Creation, is present everywhere in Creation - therefore can most certainly take on human form and nature.

The Muslim understanding of God is simplistic, not simple. No one can ever even begin to understand God - the Christian idea of God recognises this; yet is eminently reasonable. Christians do, of course, worship the One God.

Catholic prayer involving Mary or other saints, is prayer to God THROUGH them, not TO them - we do NOT worship Mary or the saints, which would of course be idolatry.

Firstly Jesus himself stated in Gospels that He has come with a sword.
Secondly,
I hope you do not regard legitimate defence as being brought with sword.
Thirdly.
The Hadith which says:
"I have been commanded to fight the people untill they say there is no God but Allah."
Is not to be taken in literal sense.
Killing is allowed in only very specefic context and situations.
That too with rulings.
This Hadith is not literal.
Abubakr,fought those who withheld Zakaat,
Without killing them.
I will post a video by Shaykh Ibn Uthaymeen in this regard Allah Willing.

[MuhammadHamza1]

Well,never mind the video.

[MuhammadHamza1]

Again and again in the Quran the words appear:
"But if they stop,you stop as well."
This is legitimate defence.

[tolpuddle]

A recent post made me ponder.. but this is not the best place to ask, being an islamic site and all ;) but I see many Christians in here and ex Christians too!

What it's essentially about is that in islam, it is basic to have learnt about the 25 prophets. The message is understood via the historical lessons given to man throughout the ages as they collectively progressed in these stories. So for those who accept islam, they are already following the final messenger and they are settled...

What is not settled is that we know the Jews are still awaiting their final(?) messenger. They rejected Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them both. Christians rejected Muhammad (pbuh), so are they waiting for a final messenger or have they settled for what is brought to them by the Bible? or: There are no more messengers! Or : Don't know?

Or am I not clear?



:peace:

It is Christian belief that prophecy and revelation ended with Jesus Christ and the New Testament.

- - - Updated - - -

Hence why we have 3.... as you said about not recognising prophecy, despite having reference of him.


:peace:

We don't, in fact, have reference to Mohammed.

3 ?

- - - Updated - - -

How does ANY of your post affect Christians ? - who don't accept the Koran's authority.

- - - Updated - - -

The Crucifixion is,with due respect,a disgusting act.
It was a Pagan practice.
And my main point is this.
IT CONTRADICTS THE BELIEFS OF THE FORMER PROPHETS OF TORAH REGARDING ATONEMENT OF SINS.
It is rejected in The Torah.
And we have many reasons to reject that JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS.
It contradicts the sign that Jesus said will be a miracle for the Jews.The sign of Jonah to be precise.
And also because The New Testament cannot be trusted and taken and quoted as a sufficient source alone.
Please be critical of Religions.That is the way to understanding.
I am sure you will agree with me.

The Crucifixion of Jesus was foretold by prophets of the Torah: e.g. Isaiah 52:6 to 53:12 and Zechariah 12:10.

What are your "many reasons" to reject Jesus' death on the Cross ?

The sign of Jonah given to the Jews (and to Christians, for that matter) is of course Jesus' Resurrection from the dead.

For Christians, the New Testament is alone to be trusted and regarded as sufficient.

I assure you most sincerely, that I am VERY critical of religions - with the sole exception of Christianity.

[MuhammadHamza1]

Then we Should start with the basics.
1)-How do you explain the great number of similarities between the stories of Jesus in Gospels and the Stories of The Roman Emperor at that time?
2)-Why were the New Testament written in Greek when Jesus spoke Aramaic?
And so should his disciples then.
How could the disciples of Jesus write the Gospels,
When they were illterate?

[MuhammadHamza1]

"With the sole exception of Christianity"
That is no way.
If you consider the Quran,
It again and again asks you to consider and think and think critically about ITSELF.
Do you know why?
Because the truth fears no investigation.

[Islamthetruth]

What are your "many reasons" to reject Jesus' death on the Cross ?

Simply because Allah' says so

Quran 4:157
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-


Even in the Bible , there are several reasons .

1. JESUS WAS RELUCTANT TO DIE!He had worked out a strategy of defence to repel the Jews. Because he wantedto remain ALIVE!

2. HE BESEECHED GOD FOR HELP.With strong crying and tears for God Almighty to keep him ALIVE!

3. GOD "HEARD" HIS PRAYERSWhich means that God accepted his prayers to keep him ALIVE!

4. AN ANGEL OF GOD CAME TO STRENGTHEN HIM:In the hope and belief that God will save him ALIVE!

5. PILATE FINDS JESUS NOT GUILTY!Good reason to keep Jesus ALIVE!

6. PILATE'S WIFE SHOWN A DREAM IN WHICH SHE WAS TOLD THAT -"No harm should come to this just man." In other words that he should besaved ALIVE!

7. SUPPOSED TO BE ON THE CROSS FOR ONLY THREE HOURS.According to the system in vogue, no man could die by crucifixion in so short atime which means that even if he was fastened to the cross - he was ALIVE!

8. THE OTHER TWO - HIS "CROSSMATES" ON THEIR RESPECTIVE CROSSESWERE ALIVE.So Jesus too, for the same period of time must be ALIVE


9. ENCYCLOPEDIA BIBLICA UNDER ARTICLE "CROSS" - COLUMN 960:Says that when the spear was thrust - Jesus was ALIVE!

10. "FORTHWITH" CAME THERE OUT BLOOD AND WATER:"Forthwith" means straightaway, immediately which was a sure sign that Jesuswas ALIVE!

11. LEGS NOT BROKEN - AS A FULFILMENT OF PROPHECY."Legs" can be of any use only if Jesus was ALIVE!

12. THUNDERSTORM, EARTHQUAKE, AND DARKENING OF THE SUN ALLWITHIN 3 HOURS!To disperse the sadistic mob to enable his "secret disciples" to help, keep himALIVE!

13. JEWS DOUBTED HIS DEATH:They suspected that he had escaped death on the cross - that he was ALIVE!


14. PILATE "MARVELS" TO HEAR THAT JESUS WAS DEAD.He knew from experience that no man can die so soon by crucifixion. Hesuspected that Jesus was ALIVE!

15. BIG ROOMY CHAMBER:Close at hand, and big and airy for willing hands to come to the rescue.Providence was out to keep Jesus ALIVE!

16. STONE AND "WINDING SHEETS" HAD TO BE REMOVED:Only necessary if Jesus was ALIVE!

17. REPORT ON WINDING SHEETS.German Scientists who carried out experiments on the "Shroud of Turin"said that the heart of Jesus had not stopped functioning - that he was ALIVE.

18. EVER IN DISGUISE!Disguise not necessary if Jesus was "resurrected". Only necessary if he wasALIVE!

19. FORBADE MARY MAGDALENE TO TOUCH HIM."Touch me not" for this reason that it would hurt; because he was ALIVE!

20. "NOT YET ASCENDED UNTO MY FATHER"In the language of the Jews, in the idiom of the Jews, he was saying, "I am notdead yet", in other words, "I am ALIVE!"

21. MARY MAGDALENE NOT AFRAID ON RECOGNISING JESUS.Because she had seen signs of life before. She was looking for a Jesus whowas ALIVE!

22. DISCIPLES PETRIFIED ON SEEING JESUS IN THE UPPER-ROOM.All their knowledge about the "crucifixion" was from hearsay, therefore, theycould not believe that Jesus was ALIVE!

23. ATE FOOD AGAIN AND AGAIN IN HIS POST "CRUCIFIXION"APPEARANCES.Food only necessary if he was ALIVE!

24. NEVER SHOWED HIMSELF TO HIS ENEMIES.Because he had escaped death by the "skin of his teeth". He was ALIVE!

25. TOOK ONLY SHORT TRIPS.Because he was not resurrected, not spiritualised, but ALIVE!

26. TESTIMONY OF MEN AROUND THE TOMB:"Why seek ye the living among the dead?" - (Luke 24:4-5): That he is notdead, but ALIVE!

27. TESTIMONY OF ANGELS:". . . angels who had said that he was ALIVE!" - Luke 24:23. Did not say,"resurrected" but the actual word uttered by the angels was "ALIVE!"

28. MARY MAGDALENE TESTIFIES -". . . they heard that he was ALIVE, and had been seen by her, they believednot." - (Mark 16:11): Mary did not vouch for a spook, or ghost or spirit ofJesus but a LIVE Jesus. What they could not believe was that the Master wasALIVE!

29. DR. PRIMROSE TESTIFIES:That the "water and the blood", when Jesus was lanced on the side, was onaccount of an upset in the nervous vessels because of the scourging by staves.Which was a sure sign that Jesus was ALIVE!

30. JESUS HAD HIMSELF FORETOLD THAT HIS MIRACLE WILL BE THEMIRACLE OF JONAH!According to the Book of Jonah, Jonah was ALIVE, when we expected him tobe DEAD; similarly when we expect Jesus to be DEAD, he should be ALIVE!



That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

[tolpuddle]

Simply because Allah' says so

Quran 4:157
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-


Even in the Bible , there are several reasons .

1. JESUS WAS RELUCTANT TO DIE!He had worked out a strategy of defence to repel the Jews. Because he wantedto remain ALIVE!

2. HE BESEECHED GOD FOR HELP.With strong crying and tears for God Almighty to keep him ALIVE!

3. GOD "HEARD" HIS PRAYERSWhich means that God accepted his prayers to keep him ALIVE!

4. AN ANGEL OF GOD CAME TO STRENGTHEN HIM:In the hope and belief that God will save him ALIVE!

5. PILATE FINDS JESUS NOT GUILTY!Good reason to keep Jesus ALIVE!

6. PILATE'S WIFE SHOWN A DREAM IN WHICH SHE WAS TOLD THAT -"No harm should come to this just man." In other words that he should besaved ALIVE!

7. SUPPOSED TO BE ON THE CROSS FOR ONLY THREE HOURS.According to the system in vogue, no man could die by crucifixion in so short atime which means that even if he was fastened to the cross - he was ALIVE!

8. THE OTHER TWO - HIS "CROSSMATES" ON THEIR RESPECTIVE CROSSESWERE ALIVE.So Jesus too, for the same period of time must be ALIVE


9. ENCYCLOPEDIA BIBLICA UNDER ARTICLE "CROSS" - COLUMN 960:Says that when the spear was thrust - Jesus was ALIVE!

10. "FORTHWITH" CAME THERE OUT BLOOD AND WATER:"Forthwith" means straightaway, immediately which was a sure sign that Jesuswas ALIVE!

11. LEGS NOT BROKEN - AS A FULFILMENT OF PROPHECY."Legs" can be of any use only if Jesus was ALIVE!

12. THUNDERSTORM, EARTHQUAKE, AND DARKENING OF THE SUN ALLWITHIN 3 HOURS!To disperse the sadistic mob to enable his "secret disciples" to help, keep himALIVE!

13. JEWS DOUBTED HIS DEATH:They suspected that he had escaped death on the cross - that he was ALIVE!


14. PILATE "MARVELS" TO HEAR THAT JESUS WAS DEAD.He knew from experience that no man can die so soon by crucifixion. Hesuspected that Jesus was ALIVE!

15. BIG ROOMY CHAMBER:Close at hand, and big and airy for willing hands to come to the rescue.Providence was out to keep Jesus ALIVE!

16. STONE AND "WINDING SHEETS" HAD TO BE REMOVED:Only necessary if Jesus was ALIVE!

17. REPORT ON WINDING SHEETS.German Scientists who carried out experiments on the "Shroud of Turin"said that the heart of Jesus had not stopped functioning - that he was ALIVE.

18. EVER IN DISGUISE!Disguise not necessary if Jesus was "resurrected". Only necessary if he wasALIVE!

19. FORBADE MARY MAGDALENE TO TOUCH HIM."Touch me not" for this reason that it would hurt; because he was ALIVE!

20. "NOT YET ASCENDED UNTO MY FATHER"In the language of the Jews, in the idiom of the Jews, he was saying, "I am notdead yet", in other words, "I am ALIVE!"

21. MARY MAGDALENE NOT AFRAID ON RECOGNISING JESUS.Because she had seen signs of life before. She was looking for a Jesus whowas ALIVE!

22. DISCIPLES PETRIFIED ON SEEING JESUS IN THE UPPER-ROOM.All their knowledge about the "crucifixion" was from hearsay, therefore, theycould not believe that Jesus was ALIVE!

23. ATE FOOD AGAIN AND AGAIN IN HIS POST "CRUCIFIXION"APPEARANCES.Food only necessary if he was ALIVE!

24. NEVER SHOWED HIMSELF TO HIS ENEMIES.Because he had escaped death by the "skin of his teeth". He was ALIVE!

25. TOOK ONLY SHORT TRIPS.Because he was not resurrected, not spiritualised, but ALIVE!

26. TESTIMONY OF MEN AROUND THE TOMB:"Why seek ye the living among the dead?" - (Luke 24:4-5): That he is notdead, but ALIVE!

27. TESTIMONY OF ANGELS:". . . angels who had said that he was ALIVE!" - Luke 24:23. Did not say,"resurrected" but the actual word uttered by the angels was "ALIVE!"

28. MARY MAGDALENE TESTIFIES -". . . they heard that he was ALIVE, and had been seen by her, they believednot." - (Mark 16:11): Mary did not vouch for a spook, or ghost or spirit ofJesus but a LIVE Jesus. What they could not believe was that the Master wasALIVE!

29. DR. PRIMROSE TESTIFIES:That the "water and the blood", when Jesus was lanced on the side, was onaccount of an upset in the nervous vessels because of the scourging by staves.Which was a sure sign that Jesus was ALIVE!

30. JESUS HAD HIMSELF FORETOLD THAT HIS MIRACLE WILL BE THEMIRACLE OF JONAH!According to the Book of Jonah, Jonah was ALIVE, when we expected him tobe DEAD; similarly when we expect Jesus to be DEAD, he should be ALIVE!



That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Your quotes from the Koran are irrelevant here, since as a Christian I don't recognise the Koran's authority.

Jesus was willing to die - but obviously, He didn't WANT to ! In the Garden, in His agony Jesus sweated blood - a known medical condition, which always leads very swiftly to death. His prayer for help was granted and an angel helped Him - otherwise He would have died in the Garden and not lived to be crucified. No wonder Jesus died after only three hours on the cross - only by a direct miracle had He survived the previous night.

Pilate wished to spare Jesus - but the Jewish leaders, aided by the mob, bullied (and threatened) him into ordering Jesus to be crucified. Pilate's wife said Jesus should (not would) be spared.

The stone was placed over Jesus' tomb at the insistence of the Jewish leaders (who feared the news of a possible resurrection) - and was rolled away only by an angel. The blood and water that flowed from Jesus' side are found together in some corpses and issue forth from such corpses if they are pierced - in this case, as a fount of Divine Mercy for all human beings of all times.

The shroud of Turin is controversial from every point of view. The Church doesn't recognise its authority or even that it is Jesus' shroud.

Points 18 onwards are irrelevant - since Christians believe that Jesus was ALIVE after His Resurrection !

You and the rest of the Muslim world have yet to produce proof - or even discernible evidence - that Jesus didn't die on the cross.

- - - Updated - - -

Then we Should start with the basics.
1)-How do you explain the great number of similarities between the stories of Jesus in Gospels and the Stories of The Roman Emperor at that time?
2)-Why were the New Testament written in Greek when Jesus spoke Aramaic?
And so should his disciples then.
How could the disciples of Jesus write the Gospels,
When they were illterate?

There is NO story of a Roman Emperor being crucified (the ultimate disgrace for a Roman), let alone of a crucified Emperor - or any other victim of crucifixion - rising from the dead on the third day.

The gospels of Matthew and Mark were probably written in Aramaic. The fact there are no surviving Aramaic manuscripts (or similarly old Greek manuscripts) is irrelevant - the early Christians were a hated and persecuted minority.

Luke spoke Greek as his first language, thus wrote in Greek. The disciples of St John were Greek - hence his gospel is in Greek.

Matthew was a Levite and tax collector - thus literate, as were many of Jesus' followers (many were born Jews and Jews have always been very literate so as to read the Bible).

- - - Updated - - -

"With the sole exception of Christianity"
That is no way.
If you consider the Quran,
It again and again asks you to consider and think and think critically about ITSELF.
Do you know why?
Because the truth fears no investigation.

But the Koran demands to be BELIEVED.

A belief I refuse to give - having browsed in it and read a fair amount about it and Islam.

For one thing, the Koran contradicts the New Testament; which I DO believe.

[LaSorcia]

It really makes me sad to conversations between believers in the one and only God degenerate like this. It happens on Christian forums as well. Everyone keeps looking at the differences and insists the other party rectify them. I think it would be more helpful to look at what we have in common and build from there. We all agree that Jesus was alive somehow. Whether God made him alive again or kept him alive. It has occurred to me that God has revealed different pieces of the same picture to different groups of people, maybe in the hopes that we can put our pieces together and make a picture of the whole truth that God was trying to reveal to humanity.

[sister herb]

It really makes me sad to conversations between believers in the one and only God degenerate like this. It happens on Christian forums as well. Everyone keeps looking at the differences and insists the other party rectify them. I think it would be more helpful to look at what we have in common and build from there. We all agree that Jesus was alive somehow. Whether God made him alive again or kept him alive. It has occurred to me that God has revealed different pieces of the same picture to different groups of people, maybe in the hopes that we can put our pieces together and make a picture of the whole truth that God was trying to reveal to humanity.

I agree. Some sort of discussions usually leads to anywhere but a big arguing.

[Grandad]

3) I don't regard Christians who have become Muslims as apostates - if they had ever truly understood Christianity, they would still be Christians.

Twaddle! I was a Christian for over sixty years (and for around forty of these a Catholic). I have no doubt that my understanding of Christianity is at least as good as yours, and possibly better! Moreover, I know (and knew) a number of former Christians - and have read the works of a great many more - who also knew their religion very well.

Have a nice day.

[Grandad]

The "son" of God (God) has existed from the Beginning - thus long before Adam and Eve fell into sin. God is absolutely One and yet, within that Oneness is Threeness, Trinity. Applying a naive human logic to this - as you have tried to do - is in vain; since God is above and beyond human logic..

Your use of the expression ‘human logic’ is flawed. Logic exists independent of humans.

If A implies B and B implies C, then A implies C. This truth is universal.

The law of non-contradiction states that a thing cannot be both A and not-A at one and the same time. This is also a universal truth. Not even God can flout this law. For example, He cannot be both finite and infinite at one and the same time; absolutely immutable and at the same time changeable; omnipotent and at the same time powerless.

C.S. Lewis writes: ‘(God’s) Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say "God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it," you have not succeeded in saying anything about God.

‘Meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words "God can."… It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.’ (The Problem of Pain).

When Lewis says that God cannot ‘carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives’ he is referring to the law of non-contradiction. He is saying that God cannot do what is logically impossible. And in this he is supported by St Thomas Aquinas, who writes that God cannot create a man who is, at the same time, a donkey; for in the statement that a man is a donkey ‘the predicate is altogether incompatible with the subject.’ (cf. Summa Theologica: Part 1; Question 25; Article 3).

Concerning your comments in Post 87:

The works attributed to Mark and Matthew were written in Greek. Both were written decades after the events they describe by men who never met Christ. 'Mark' was written first; followed by 'Matthew'. The author of 'Matthew' drew heavily upon 'Mark' (about 90% of the 'Matthew' Gospel is taken from that book), and amended many details found there.

The anonymous author of 'Luke' also wrote in Greek, and draws upon both 'Mark' and 'Matthew.' He never met Christ either.

The anonymous author of 'John' also wrote in Greek. He pays scant attention to the other Gospel writers, and goes his own way. This author draws heavily on Gnostic notions, and for this reason his work had a hard time getting into the Canon. And would you believe it...this author never met Christ either!

Have a nice day.

[MuhammadHamza1]

Simply because Allah' says so

Quran 4:157
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-


Even in the Bible , there are several reasons .

1. JESUS WAS RELUCTANT TO DIE!He had worked out a strategy of defence to repel the Jews. Because he wantedto remain ALIVE!

2. HE BESEECHED GOD FOR HELP.With strong crying and tears for God Almighty to keep him ALIVE!

3. GOD "HEARD" HIS PRAYERSWhich means that God accepted his prayers to keep him ALIVE!

4. AN ANGEL OF GOD CAME TO STRENGTHEN HIM:In the hope and belief that God will save him ALIVE!

5. PILATE FINDS JESUS NOT GUILTY!Good reason to keep Jesus ALIVE!

6. PILATE'S WIFE SHOWN A DREAM IN WHICH SHE WAS TOLD THAT -"No harm should come to this just man." In other words that he should besaved ALIVE!

7. SUPPOSED TO BE ON THE CROSS FOR ONLY THREE HOURS.According to the system in vogue, no man could die by crucifixion in so short atime which means that even if he was fastened to the cross - he was ALIVE!

8. THE OTHER TWO - HIS "CROSSMATES" ON THEIR RESPECTIVE CROSSESWERE ALIVE.So Jesus too, for the same period of time must be ALIVE


9. ENCYCLOPEDIA BIBLICA UNDER ARTICLE "CROSS" - COLUMN 960:Says that when the spear was thrust - Jesus was ALIVE!

10. "FORTHWITH" CAME THERE OUT BLOOD AND WATER:"Forthwith" means straightaway, immediately which was a sure sign that Jesuswas ALIVE!

11. LEGS NOT BROKEN - AS A FULFILMENT OF PROPHECY."Legs" can be of any use only if Jesus was ALIVE!

12. THUNDERSTORM, EARTHQUAKE, AND DARKENING OF THE SUN ALLWITHIN 3 HOURS!To disperse the sadistic mob to enable his "secret disciples" to help, keep himALIVE!

13. JEWS DOUBTED HIS DEATH:They suspected that he had escaped death on the cross - that he was ALIVE!


14. PILATE "MARVELS" TO HEAR THAT JESUS WAS DEAD.He knew from experience that no man can die so soon by crucifixion. Hesuspected that Jesus was ALIVE!

15. BIG ROOMY CHAMBER:Close at hand, and big and airy for willing hands to come to the rescue.Providence was out to keep Jesus ALIVE!

16. STONE AND "WINDING SHEETS" HAD TO BE REMOVED:Only necessary if Jesus was ALIVE!

17. REPORT ON WINDING SHEETS.German Scientists who carried out experiments on the "Shroud of Turin"said that the heart of Jesus had not stopped functioning - that he was ALIVE.

18. EVER IN DISGUISE!Disguise not necessary if Jesus was "resurrected". Only necessary if he wasALIVE!

19. FORBADE MARY MAGDALENE TO TOUCH HIM."Touch me not" for this reason that it would hurt; because he was ALIVE!

20. "NOT YET ASCENDED UNTO MY FATHER"In the language of the Jews, in the idiom of the Jews, he was saying, "I am notdead yet", in other words, "I am ALIVE!"

21. MARY MAGDALENE NOT AFRAID ON RECOGNISING JESUS.Because she had seen signs of life before. She was looking for a Jesus whowas ALIVE!

22. DISCIPLES PETRIFIED ON SEEING JESUS IN THE UPPER-ROOM.All their knowledge about the "crucifixion" was from hearsay, therefore, theycould not believe that Jesus was ALIVE!

23. ATE FOOD AGAIN AND AGAIN IN HIS POST "CRUCIFIXION"APPEARANCES.Food only necessary if he was ALIVE!

24. NEVER SHOWED HIMSELF TO HIS ENEMIES.Because he had escaped death by the "skin of his teeth". He was ALIVE!

25. TOOK ONLY SHORT TRIPS.Because he was not resurrected, not spiritualised, but ALIVE!

26. TESTIMONY OF MEN AROUND THE TOMB:"Why seek ye the living among the dead?" - (Luke 24:4-5): That he is notdead, but ALIVE!

27. TESTIMONY OF ANGELS:". . . angels who had said that he was ALIVE!" - Luke 24:23. Did not say,"resurrected" but the actual word uttered by the angels was "ALIVE!"

28. MARY MAGDALENE TESTIFIES -". . . they heard that he was ALIVE, and had been seen by her, they believednot." - (Mark 16:11): Mary did not vouch for a spook, or ghost or spirit ofJesus but a LIVE Jesus. What they could not believe was that the Master wasALIVE!

29. DR. PRIMROSE TESTIFIES:That the "water and the blood", when Jesus was lanced on the side, was onaccount of an upset in the nervous vessels because of the scourging by staves.Which was a sure sign that Jesus was ALIVE!

30. JESUS HAD HIMSELF FORETOLD THAT HIS MIRACLE WILL BE THEMIRACLE OF JONAH!According to the Book of Jonah, Jonah was ALIVE, when we expected him tobe DEAD; similarly when we expect Jesus to be DEAD, he should be ALIVE!



That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Do not worry.
I am going to present some evidence to him.

[MuhammadHamza1]

It really makes me sad to conversations between believers in the one and only God degenerate like this. It happens on Christian forums as well. Everyone keeps looking at the differences and insists the other party rectify them. I think it would be more helpful to look at what we have in common and build from there. We all agree that Jesus was alive somehow. Whether God made him alive again or kept him alive. It has occurred to me that God has revealed different pieces of the same picture to different groups of people, maybe in the hopes that we can put our pieces together and make a picture of the whole truth that God was trying to reveal to humanity.

Your comment has quite the sense of irony.
You see.
If you go to any comment section of a Christian Muslim Debate,
You will find Many Christians literally abusing.
So blame us not.
But the Christian present here is straight to point and is morally sound.
So can you find any bad language from me on his part?
All I have done is ask him questions.
And even if he did abuse,I never abuse back.There was a Jew and he was just blaming Islam ignorantly.I humiliated him in such a way,without using abusive words,by debunking his arguments,that he had to delete his comments.
So I am only asking questions and he is answering rationally.
There is no problem in this debate.
But yes.
You should be saying these words to those abusive Christians

[MuhammadHamza1]

"Islam demands to be believed."
Not correct.
The two most occuring words in the Quran are
1)-Think
2)-Consider
So what it says is that you think critically and try to prove it wrong or prove that something like this can be from someone other than God.
Inshort,it does not command blind following.
You can see my posts for some explaination of controversial issues of Islam.
But then yes.Islam demands to be believed in but not after you have investigated it.Meaning ensure yourself to the core that it is the word of God by questioning it
But again.
Christianity does not encourage critical thinking of it and yet it also demands to be believed in.
Do you not say that those who do not believe in Christianity shall be eternally damned?
There are numerous verses condemning non Christians to eternal damnation.
So your argument makes no sense when your own book does not qualify.

[LaSorcia]

Your comment has quite the sense of irony.
You see.
If you go to any comment section of a Christian Muslim Debate,
You will find Many Christians literally abusing.
So blame us not.
But the Christian present here is straight to point and is morally sound.
So can you find any bad language from me on his part?
All I have done is ask him questions.
And even if he did abuse,I never abuse back.There was a Jew and he was just blaming Islam ignorantly.I humiliated him in such a way,without using abusive words,by debunking his arguments,that he had to delete his comments.
So I am only asking questions and he is answering rationally.
There is no problem in this debate.
But yes.
You should be saying these words to those abusive Christians

I think you might want to re-read what I wrote. I wasn't blaming anyone. I was expressing sadness that arguing happens more than dialogue. I'd like to see more dialogue. I wasn't blaming anyone in particular. It seems to happen everywhere, believers or not.

[Grandad]

I think you might want to re-read what I wrote. I wasn't blaming anyone. I was expressing sadness that arguing happens more than dialogue. I'd like to see more dialogue. I wasn't blaming anyone in particular. It seems to happen everywhere, believers or not.

Agreed. What would you like to discuss?

[LaSorcia]

Agreed. What would you like to discuss?

How about all the things Christians and Muslims have in common? We believe in one God, we believe a lot of the same people were sent as prophets, we both have holy books. What else?

[sister herb]

Actually, we have a lot of common. From the both books, the Bible and the Quran, we can find similar moral codes like what the ten commandments include. If we both try our best to follow them, our world could to be much more peaceful place to live than what it´s now.

[Insaanah]

Twaddle! I was a Christian for over sixty years (and for around forty of these a Catholic). I have no doubt that my understanding of Christianity is at least as good as yours, and possibly better! Moreover, I know (and knew) a number of former Christians - and have read the works of a great many more - who also knew their religion very well.

Many Muslims who were formerly Christian, say it feels like they have returned home, and they feel closer to Jesus now than when they were Christian, as a quote from a former Christian on the forum, who was a seminarian for many years, shows:

"Many of us here (myself included) said essentially the same words you are now saying, during our years following Paulism in the belief we were Christians. During our Christian years we loved and worshiped an idealistic man-made concept. After we came to Islam we learned to truly love Jesus (peace be on him) and not what we were told was Jesus(pbuh).When I was Christian I thought I loved Jesus(pbuh), but after coming to Islam I came to truly Love Jesus(pbuh)."

[LaSorcia]

We also agree that there is evil in the dunya. Christians call it 'the world'. We don't mean the earth that God created by that term. We also have end-times prophecies in common, even if we only both partial information about what will happen. Muslims have the ummah and Christians have the church. Not completely the same concepts, but very similar.
What else do we have in common? :D

[sister herb]

Both are religions of peace.

[LaSorcia]

And both say God is merciful and kind.

[Predator]

Your quotes from the Koran are irrelevant here, since as a Christian I don't recognise the Koran's authority.

Jesus was willing to die - but obviously, He didn't WANT to ! In the Garden, in His agony Jesus sweated blood - a known medical condition, which always leads very swiftly to death. His prayer for help was granted and an angel helped Him - otherwise He would have died in the Garden and not lived to be crucified. No wonder Jesus died after only three hours on the cross - only by a direct miracle had He survived the previous night.

Pilate wished to spare Jesus - but the Jewish leaders, aided by the mob, bullied (and threatened) him into ordering Jesus to be crucified. Pilate's wife said Jesus should (not would) be spared.

The stone was placed over Jesus' tomb at the insistence of the Jewish leaders (who feared the news of a possible resurrection) - and was rolled away only by an angel. The blood and water that flowed from Jesus' side are found together in some corpses and issue forth from such corpses if they are pierced - in this case, as a fount of Divine Mercy for all human beings of all times.

The shroud of Turin is controversial from every point of view. The Church doesn't recognise its authority or even that it is Jesus' shroud.

Points 18 onwards are irrelevant - since Christians believe that Jesus was ALIVE after His Resurrection !

You and the rest of the Muslim world have yet to produce proof - or even discernible evidence - that Jesus didn't die on the cross.

Jesus was not crucified and not resurrected , He begins calming the disciples' fear for taking himto be a ghost. He says:

"Behold (have a look at) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself (I amthe same fellow, man!): handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh andbones, as you see me have.. . . And he showed them his hands and his feet."(Luke 24:39-40)

What was the man trying to prove? That he had been resurrected from the dead? - That hewas a spirit? - What has the demonstration of hands and feet to do with resurrection? "It is IMYSELF!" Can't you see, you fools!? "For a SPIRIT . . . " - any spirit, has "NO flesh andbones, as YOU see ME have!". This is an axiomatic, self-evident truth. You do not have toconvince anybody, whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Atheist or Agnostic. Everyone willacknowledge without any proof that A SPIRIT HAS NO FLESH AND BONES!WHY BELABOUR THE OBVIOUS

To assure them further, to calm their shaky nerves, he asks: "Have you here any meat",i.e. anything to eat? "And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and of a honeycomb,and he took it, and DID EAT before them." To prove what? That he is RESURRECTED?Why does he not then say so instead of proving everything to the contrary? Presenting hisphysical body for examination, eating and masticating "broiled fish and honeycomb". Isall this an act, a pretence, a make-believe,

Luke 24:42
While they were still in disbelief because of their joy and amazement, He asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42So they gave Him a piece of broiled fish, 43and He took it and ate it in front of them.


What is wrong with the Christians? Jesus says that a spirit has no flesh and bones,they say that it has! Who is lying? Jesus or you Christians, thebillion so-called followers of his? This is the result of two thousand years of brain-washing.

[LaSorcia]

Jesus was not crucified and not resurrected , He begins calming the disciples' fear for taking himto be a ghost. He says:

"Behold (have a look at) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself (I amthe same fellow, man!): handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh andbones, as you see me have.. . . And he showed them his hands and his feet."(Luke 24:39-40)

What was the man trying to prove? That he had been resurrected from the dead? - That hewas a spirit? - What has the demonstration of hands and feet to do with resurrection? "It is IMYSELF!" Can't you see, you fools!? "For a SPIRIT . . . " - any spirit, has "NO flesh andbones, as YOU see ME have!". This is an axiomatic, self-evident truth. You do not have toconvince anybody, whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Atheist or Agnostic. Everyone willacknowledge without any proof that A SPIRIT HAS NO FLESH AND BONES!WHY BELABOUR THE OBVIOUS

To assure them further, to calm their shaky nerves, he asks: "Have you here any meat",i.e. anything to eat? "And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and of a honeycomb,and he took it, and DID EAT before them." To prove what? That he is RESURRECTED?Why does he not then say so instead of proving everything to the contrary? Presenting hisphysical body for examination, eating and masticating "broiled fish and honeycomb". Isall this an act, a pretence, a make-believe,

Luke 24:42
While they were still in disbelief because of their joy and amazement, He asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42So they gave Him a piece of broiled fish, 43and He took it and ate it in front of them.


What is wrong with the Christians? Jesus says that a spirit has no flesh and bones,they say that it has! Who is lying? Jesus or you Christians, thebillion so-called followers of his? This is the result of two thousand years of brain-washing.

Well, we both agree that God preserved the life of Jesus/Essa, regardless of how he did it. That is something good to build on.

[ardianto]

What else do we have in common?

Greetings, sister.

How if WE ask this question to Buddhists, Hindus, and people from other religions?. Then we will find many differences between us and them. Even we can find many differences between Muslim like me and Christian like you.

But the differences will not become a problem if we don't see it as a barrier to coexist peacefully. The key to coexist is respecting the difference.

:)

[talibilm]

The only valid version of the New Testament is that approved by the Roman Catholic Church.

There is only One God worshipped by Christians - the God of Abraham, worshipped also by Muslims and Jews.

Though you adore the OT of jews but still the jews address Christians as Polytheists !! why ? what is the reason in your view when you CLAIM christians worship the Same God of Moses ?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you talibilm;

Though you adore the OT of jews but still the jews address Christians as Polytheists !! why ? what is the reason in your view when you CLAIM christians worship the Same God of Moses ?

Because we all share some profound truths, I like this quote posted by Abu Fauzi recently on another thread.....

Once, when his companions asked him: "O Messenger of Allah, what are the most excellent of actions?"

The beloved of Allah, Sallallahu alaihi Wasallam, replied:--

"To gladden the heart of human beings,
To feed the hungry,
To help the afflicted,
To lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and
To remove the sufferings of the injured." [Sahih Bukhari].

So, over to us all... let's put this into practice in everyday life.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

[Predator]

Well, we both agree that God preserved the life of Jesus/Essa, regardless of how he did it. That is something good to build on.

Yes , but Toldpuddle doesnt believe that . From his statement , i understand that he believes Jesus Died and rose to life again.

[sister herb]

Yes , but Toldpuddle doesnt believe that . From his statement , i understand that he believes Jesus Died and rose to life again.

Well, doesn´t this just mean that "God preserved the life of Jesus/Essa, regardless of how he did it"? Difference is just that he didn´t died (before he rose to life before) according to Islam.

[Abz2000]

وَتَقَطَّعُوا أَمْرَهُم بَيْنَهُمْ كُلٌّ إِلَيْنَا رَاجِعُونَ

021:093
:
And they cut off their affair among them: But to Us will all return.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Predator;

]Yes , but Toldpuddle doesnt believe that . From his statement , i understand that he believes Jesus Died and rose to life again.

We do not seem to have much control of what goes into our own minds, The Jews are God's chosen people, Christians are chosen by Christ, and Allah chooses whom he wills. The most important thing with any belief, is what these beliefs inspire us to do, because we do have some control with our own words and actions.

Truth should inspire us towards kindness, patience, compassion and helping others, we should strive to be in control of our temptations and obey God's commands.

I believe that Jesus died for my sins, and rose again from the dead, I know this is not the beliefs held within other religions, but I do not see this as a barrier towards fostering greater interfaith relations. We are all created by the same God.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

[Grandad]

How about all the things Christians and Muslims have in common? We believe in one God, we believe a lot of the same people were sent as prophets, we both have holy books. What else?

Hello there.

Please accept my apology for the delayed reply.

It seems that you, Sister Herb and Eric H have captured the major things that Christians and Muslims have in common. I was particularly moved by Sister Herbs comment: ‘From the both books, the Bible and the Quran, we can find similar moral codes like what the Ten Commandments include. If we both try our best to follow them, our world could to be much more peaceful place to live than what it is now.’

Allow me to tell a brief story:

I was raised as a Baptist in the Rhondda, South Wales. In the 1920’s a number of Italian families moved into Glamorgan and set up shops and cafes. One of these families settled in my home town. When Italy declared war, and joined with Germany, the UK government issued an internment order against those it deemed to be 'enemy civilians'. This included the Italian family in my town. The husband was taken away, but his wife and three children were allowed to remain at home.

One day, my grandfather was returning from work (he was a coal miner) when he saw a mob hurling abuse (and stones) at the Italian family and their home; at people they had once called friends. My grandfather told the mob to stop, and they did. Many years later the family’s eldest daughter (Maria) was accepted into the Carmelite Order, and my grandfather and grandmother were invited to attend the ceremony. A very great honour in those days.

My grandfather was an Elder at one of the local Welsh Baptist Chapels. The Elders employed the Minister.

When I was a teenager, one Minister came to my grandfather’s house. He was treated like royalty. My grandfather called him ‘Sir’. Later, I asked my grandfather why he had called this man ‘Sir’; after all, he was the Minister’s boss! My grandfather smiled, and said: ‘I’m just an Elder. The Minister speaks the Word!’

When my grandfather died, several hundred men – of all ages – attended his funeral (women did not do so in those days). They filled the chapel, and many were weeping openly.

My grandfather was able to calm a howling mob – and move the hearts of many – not because of any legal authority (he had none), but because of his character; because of the person he was. He lived his Faith as it was meant to be lived. A Christian would say that he reflected the love of Jesus; and that it was this that made him a beacon for others. I would say that he reflected the love of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla).

My grandfather led by example rather than argument. He followed the teachings of his Faith; and I’m quite sure he would have been equally as faithful had he been a Muslim (or a Jew, for that matter)

Although I can no longer share all of his theology he remains, by far, the finest man I have ever met.

[Grandad]

Many Muslims who were formerly Christian, say it feels like they have returned home, and they feel closer to Jesus now than when they were Christian, as a quote from a former Christian on the forum, who was a seminarian for many years, shows:

As-Salāmu ‘alaykum, sister.

Again, I apologise for the delayed reply.

I’ve heard that said; and I share the sentiment. However, we mustn’t lose sight of the fact that Christians can (and do) feel an enormous attachment to Jesus; and a very great reverence. Aside from my grandfather (please see my post above) I have known many other Christians who felt nothing but spiritual satisfaction; fulfillment; and a very deep happiness when thinking of this man. We ought not to be surprised by this. After all, Yeshua (radi Allahu ‘anhu) was a prophet of the Most High (may His Name be exalted) and, as such, a mirror reflecting His Love.

[Insaanah]

It has occurred to me that God has revealed different pieces of the same picture to different groups of people, maybe in the hopes that we can put our pieces together and make a picture of the whole truth that God was trying to reveal to humanity.

God revealed the same fundamental truth to different groups of people - the truth that there is no God but He, without associate in His Exclusive Divinity, and that the prophet conveying that truth should be obeyed in that regard. That truth got some times forgotten and was sometimes changed by people. But now the whole truth is preserved, untampered, for all mankind, in the Qur'an. It is a confirmation, continuation, and culmination of the truth revealed before. Now there's no longer a need to put pieces together to try to search for, decipher, and put together pieces to find the truth, when it is now clear, complete, and unchanged. That does not negate the fact that there are of course things in common, and the Qur'an in fact calls for a fundamental commonality:

Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to common terms as between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). (3:64)

Peace.