/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Finland's Islamophobia and Hate against Islam



aaj
03-27-2017, 06:42 PM

Xenophobia and Islamophobia get to first base in Finland
http://www.migranttales.net/xenophob...-and-now-what/

Finns Party candidate called for Muslims to be cooked alive because he was ‘extremely concerned about the spread of extreme Islam’
http://www.islamophobiawatch.co.uk/category/finland/

Finnish lawmaker fined for 'all terrorists are Muslims' comment
https://www.dailysabah.com/islamopho...uslims-comment

Report: Islamophobia in Finland

Finland has a relatively proportionally small amount of Muslims, about 60.000-65.000 in a country of 5,5 million people. The largest ethnic Muslim group residing in Finland are Tatars who came to the country at the end of the 19th century. Today though, most Muslims are from Arab countries, Somalia or the Balkans. The amount of converts is also growing.

The results of data analysed in this report show that Islamophobia is rising in an alarming way throughout public discourse, including media, politics and especially in the realm of cyberspace and social media. Other academic research cited in this report has shown that Islamophobia is one of the reasons of Muslim radicalisation and why some Muslims decide to leave Finland and move to Syria.

full report at: https://www.islamophobiaeurope.com/r...15_FINLAND.pdf

@sister herb

You keep talking about Turkey but what are you doing about your nation's leaders?
Why don't you speak out about their human rights violations?
Why are you so mute about your government and politicians?

As a Muslim I feel lot more safer in Turkey then I do in your country.
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Good brother
03-27-2017, 06:57 PM
May Allah protect our brothers and sisters everywhere.
Reply

Butterfly
03-27-2017, 07:03 PM
May Allah protect and aid our muslim brothers and sisters worldwide. May Allah help all those suffering from oppression. Ameen
Reply

Futuwwa
03-27-2017, 07:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
You keep talking about Turkey but what are you doing about your nation's leaders?
Why don't you speak out about their human rights violations?
Why are you so mute about your government and politicians?
The whataboutery is strong with this one.

The most convenient thing about this kind of assertions is, they don't even have to be true. You can just assume the person isn't doing it simply because you haven't personally heard the person do it. Bit like stupid and bigoted infidels assume Muslims never denounce evil acts by other Muslims simply because they personally haven't heard it.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Sho Islam
03-27-2017, 07:05 PM
Islamophobia is a phenomenon increasing incredibly fast in the west. Its unfortunate it exists in Muslim countries to some degree too.
Reply

sister herb
03-27-2017, 07:24 PM
Sorry, I didn´t think anyone is interesting about my country and it´s policy.

I didn´t support the current president in the elections but I like some of his ideas when he speaks that we all should to be "the people of sense", meet other people as they are and avoid racism. The former president I liked much more, as she too is interesting about the human right issues and supports freedom for Palestine.

We have now far right party in the government but their official statements have been quite lame at the last times. They seem to love their minister´s portfolios and a tiny amount of political power they got.

Oh yes, we have our far right groups, patries and street patrols whose mostly terrify ordinary Finns.

Islamophobia has been raised here too but I can still walk on the streets with hijab without any kind of harassment. Mentality of the Finns is usually so shy that they may say something unkindly only when they are drunk. (Well, some are drunk quite often.) Maybe situation is worse in the bigger cities.

Is it safer in Turkey or in Finland, hard to say as I haven´t never been in Turkey. Have you visited in Finland, br aaj, if I may ask?
Reply

Scimitar
03-27-2017, 07:30 PM
May Allah invite the Finns to Islam, ameen.

Scimi
Reply

aaj
03-27-2017, 07:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb

Is it safer in Turkey or in Finland, hard to say as I haven´t never been in Turkey. Have you visited in Finland, br aaj, if I may ask?
No, i have not and i would not based on the reports and the common growing islamophobia and xenophobia across Europe.
Reply

sister herb
03-27-2017, 08:30 PM
I see. But is there some specific matter in your mind what you disagree of actions of the government of Finland? Human right violations for example.

I have been worried about situation of the asylum seekers of Iraq as the government has decided that some areas of Iraq are safe to return and when refugees have went back, they have faced torture in Iraq. There have been a protest camp of refugees in Helsinki for weeks about this matter. Ever heard? Opinions?

Here is also nowadays discussions about what to do with those refugees whose didn´t get recidence permit but now they stay illegally in Finland. Like should government offer to them the basic social security, right for free health care and some place to sleep as it´s the value that the country will take care of the basic needs of all people whose stay in here, legally or illegally. Situation is complicated because Finland and some countries like Iraq hasn´t agreements of the returning of refugees. This means that if they don´t want to go back, Finland can´t kick them out from the country. people can´t live in the streets here as weather is freezing sometimes.
Reply

azc
03-28-2017, 07:52 AM
May Allah swt protect our brothers and sisters. Ameen
Reply

Samiun
03-28-2017, 08:52 AM
:sl: Finnish people in general are friendly and helpful. My brother and my mum had an off-road incident in the middle of the night one day at a highway in Finland. Since it was winter there's load of snow and literally nobody was there. A couple of minutes later, the finnish people(passer bys that happened to come across them) took care of them and help to get the car off the snow(which they plowed through). I think like the Iceland people, finnish people are deeply rooted in spirituality of some sort particularly the indigenous people of Finland ie, The Samis.
Reply

Mustafa16
03-28-2017, 04:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
Xenophobia and Islamophobia get to first base in Finland
http://www.migranttales.net/xenophob...-and-now-what/

Finns Party candidate called for Muslims to be cooked alive because he was ‘extremely concerned about the spread of extreme Islam’
http://www.islamophobiawatch.co.uk/category/finland/

Finnish lawmaker fined for 'all terrorists are Muslims' comment
https://www.dailysabah.com/islamopho...uslims-comment

Report: Islamophobia in Finland

Finland has a relatively proportionally small amount of Muslims, about 60.000-65.000 in a country of 5,5 million people. The largest ethnic Muslim group residing in Finland are Tatars who came to the country at the end of the 19th century. Today though, most Muslims are from Arab countries, Somalia or the Balkans. The amount of converts is also growing.

The results of data analysed in this report show that Islamophobia is rising in an alarming way throughout public discourse, including media, politics and especially in the realm of cyberspace and social media. Other academic research cited in this report has shown that Islamophobia is one of the reasons of Muslim radicalisation and why some Muslims decide to leave Finland and move to Syria.

full report at: https://www.islamophobiaeurope.com/r...15_FINLAND.pdf

@sister herb

You keep talking about Turkey but what are you doing about your nation's leaders?
Why don't you speak out about their human rights violations?
Why are you so mute about your government and politicians?

As a Muslim I feel lot more safer in Turkey then I do in your country.
lol, of course you feel safe in Turkey, youre a tayyipci.....youre a hardcore supporter of erdogan, only those people are safe in erdogan, and with erdogan's rising nationalism, armenians and kurds aren't safe, either.....in finland, there is due processs of law, which protects ALL peaceful people, not just cronies of the state.....besides, there's either going to be a change in government through elections or a military coup by perincek in turkey anyway, and if it's a coup, it will be much more bloody....you should be fleeing to Finland, because erdogan's regime and all of his allies are going to be targeted soon.
Reply

anatolian
03-28-2017, 05:17 PM
It is true that there is a rising nationalism in Europe and America which is supported by Islamophobia. It is the easiest tool for the western nationalism. Probably Finland was the farest away country from all those troubles in the west but it is not anormal to have it even there today. The west is going nationalist. Just like the conjuncture prior to WW1 and 2.
Reply

aaj
03-28-2017, 05:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mustafa16
lol, of course you feel safe in Turkey, youre a tayyipci.....youre a hardcore supporter of erdogan, only those people are safe in erdogan, and with erdogan's rising nationalism, armenians and kurds aren't safe, either.....in finland, there is due processs of law, which protects ALL peaceful people, not just cronies of the state.....besides, there's either going to be a change in government through elections or a military coup by perincek in turkey anyway, and if it's a coup, it will be much more bloody....you should be fleeing to Finland, because erdogan's regime and all of his allies are going to be targeted soon.
stop crying about it on every thread. I"m not even turkish let alone so called "tayyipici". In Finland, they want to cook Muslims alive, have a growing muslim hatred. Finland would throw your gulenist in jail too if they tried coup over there. may Allah protect Turkey from terrorist like gulenist and those who are want to bring it down.
Reply

Mustafa16
03-28-2017, 06:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
stop crying about it on every thread. I"m not even turkish let alone so called "tayyipici". In Finland, they want to cook Muslims alive, have a growing muslim hatred. Finland would throw your gulenist in jail too if they tried coup over there. may Allah protect Turkey from terrorist like gulenist and those who are want to bring it down.
gulenists did not do coup+aaj bases his argument on gulenists doing coup=aaj is wrong, mustafa16 is right
Reply

Scimitar
03-28-2017, 06:21 PM
You're both wrong. Anyway, it's never about who's right in these threads - it's about who's left ;)

And you now I'm right :D

Scimi
Reply

sister herb
03-28-2017, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
stop crying about it on every thread. I"m not even turkish let alone so called "tayyipici". In Finland, they want to cook Muslims alive, have a growing muslim hatred. Finland would throw your gulenist in jail too if they tried coup over there. may Allah protect Turkey from terrorist like gulenist and those who are want to bring it down.
It´s only a tiny but loud minority of Finns whose say this kind of idiotic statements. Most of those guys (specially if they are politics) find sooner of later themselves from the court (as it´s crime called "incitiment against the folk group" to make hostile and insulting comments against other people). We have here freedom of speech but it doesn´t allow you say anything you like. If you claim that all Finns or majority of Finns wants to cook Muslims alive, it is called as a generalization. (Finns cook alive only crayfishes and eat them with fresh dill.)


Because you mentioned in your the first post Finland´s human right violations, I took some time to looking for how some human right organizations have criticized Finland. I found two things:

1) Some human right organizations accuse Finland because laws demand those people whose want to change their gender to other (transgender people) to accept sterilization, and

2) Amnesty International claims that asylum seekers don´t get enough informations from the officers about how their proceduce is progressing.


If gulenists would have some actions in Finland, I believe they would to be as any other political party. If they would get enough support in the elections, they may at one day rule the Finland. No need to coup, it´s enough to vote in here. In here you couldn´t call gulenists as terrorists as it would to be a crime called "defamation". Just as same as that person who claimed that all terrorists are Muslims, received a penalty in court.
Reply

sister herb
03-28-2017, 06:32 PM
Brothers @aaj and @Mustafa16 - could you be kind and go to fight to some other thread? Your endless war for or against gulenists and erdoganists is very off topic.
Reply

anatolian
03-28-2017, 06:54 PM
Sorry @aaj but I must oppose the OP btw..Scandinavian countries are still the safest lands for everyone not only Muslims.

We must be talking about rather the education revolution they have done if we are gonna speak about Finland :D

Reply

aaj
03-28-2017, 07:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Brothers @aaj and @Mustafa16 - could you be kind and go to fight to some other thread? Your endless war for or against gulenists and erdoganists is very off topic.
I"m not interested in fights, i'm just tired of his playing the victim on every single thread about turkey this turkey that because his gulenist failed the coup and are facing the consequences because of it.
Reply

sister herb
03-28-2017, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
I"m not interested in fights, i'm just tired of his playing the victim on every single thread about turkey this turkey that because his gulenist failed the coup and are facing the consequences because of it.
Then be wiser and stop. Report posts which go off topic. Ignoring a person who goes to your nerves helps too. This isn´t more than a discussion forum. No need to win all wars.
Reply

Serinity
03-28-2017, 08:53 PM
:salam:

Please correct me if I am wrong, but...

The irony of this is... Most of us Muslims are not terrorists, and the one's who are calling us terrorists, act more of a terrorist than what they claim of us being a terrorist.. they bomb Shaam, its civilians, innocent die, and call it "civilian casualities" and deliberately attacking hospitals and schools Audhu Billah. But most of all.. their hate speech. They call it "Freedom of Speech" but when we speak, they call it "radicalisation".

When a minority is maligned and victimised like we are... No wonder, they themselves are digging their own graves.

Then they talk about integration, but what they are really talking about, from what I can hear, is "assimilation". Which in other words is "us becoming like them" which will never happen.

Instead of this victimizing of minorities, we should have:

A) a Segregated society.
B) an intergrated one, where we Muslims are allowed to show our Islam without being maligned. we will not become like them.

Allahu alam.
Reply

Abdullah910
03-28-2017, 11:15 PM
Islamophobia is everywhere in Europe not only in Finland.

Its funny how these countries always call themselves "countries of freedom".

Americans and Europeans together killed thousands of Muslims yet still play victim.
Reply

azc
03-29-2017, 04:25 AM
@aaj and @Mustafa16 : peace ! After all, you are brothers in Islam.
Reply

sister herb
03-29-2017, 08:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdullah910
Islamophobia is everywhere in Europe not only in Finland.

Its funny how these countries always call themselves "countries of freedom".

Americans and Europeans together killed thousands of Muslims yet still play victim.
Well, if someone puts a bomb to the train and kills civilians, they are the victims, just same if they live in the Europe or in the Asia or in America or Africa, are they Muslims or non-Muslims. This is the basic lesson of the humanity.
Reply

Zeal
03-29-2017, 08:21 AM
The world could be a better place
Reply

Simple_Person
03-29-2017, 08:27 AM
Sub'han'Allah, dude @aaj , you have become so caught up with @sister herb that you by that totally forget what the whole issue is about.

Let me untangle it for you.

Does Finnish government associate themselves with Islam by any form? Nope, they are only broadcasting the whole "democracy"-stuff.
Does Turkish government associate themselves with Islam by any form? Yes, they do and they are trying to forcefully and with intention to head towards "their" way of Islam.

Why does @sister herb and as well as ME, speak out against Turkish government instead of Finnish government one might ask. I believe my dear sister and i we say "la ilaha illa Allah". So this besides we being brother and sister in humanity, we also have become brother and sister in Islam. So every government that associates themselves with Islam, i criticize them more openly than the ones that do not associate themselves with Islam. If from this day Turkey says we go secular 100% and we convert to atheism. The country further more is being divided that none of the Muslims that are living there are oppressed, you will see i close my mouth.

US government does not associate themselves with Islam, rather with zionism, i critize that. Also you have those patriot Americans that are so proud of America and telling other people to leave their country. I also speak against that as they themselves are immigrants. About the Finnish they going open and shouting democracy and freedom, but "freedom by their standards" is only what they deem free. I also speak against that.

So thinking just because some people speak against Erdogan, doesn't mean we don't speak against other governments. However i speak more about Erdogan, Gulen and Kemalists as they are doing damage directly to Muslims living there. In Finland, if it becomes that bad, they can migrate mostly as the country itself doesn't associate themselves with Islam. However a country that associates themselves with Islam should stick to Islamic rulings, which in Turkey is every but that.
Reply

azc
03-29-2017, 08:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
Xenophobia and Islamophobia get to first base in Finlandhttp://www.migranttales.net/xenophob...-and-now-what/Finns Party candidate called for Muslims to be cooked alive because he was ‘extremely concerned about the spread of extreme Islam’http://www.islamophobiawatch.co.uk/category/finland/Finnish lawmaker fined for 'all terrorists are Muslims' commenthttps://www.dailysabah.com/islamopho...uslims-commentReport: Islamophobia in FinlandFinland has a relatively proportionally small amount of Muslims, about 60.000-65.000 in a country of 5,5 million people. The largest ethnic Muslim group residing in Finland are Tatars who came to the country at the end of the 19th century. Today though, most Muslims are from Arab countries, Somalia or the Balkans. The amount of converts is also growing. The results of data analysed in this report show that Islamophobia is rising in an alarming way throughout public discourse, including media, politics and especially in the realm of cyberspace and social media. Other academic research cited in this report has shown that Islamophobia is one of the reasons of Muslim radicalisation and why some Muslims decide to leave Finland and move to Syria.full report at: https://www.islamophobiaeurope.com/r...15_FINLAND.pdf @sister herb You keep talking about Turkey but what are you doing about your nation's leaders? Why don't you speak out about their human rights violations? Why are you so mute about your government and politicians? As a Muslim I feel lot more safer in Turkey then I do in your country.
turkey is a Muslim country, this is why it's safer for you
Reply

sister herb
03-29-2017, 09:06 AM
I have made work to find out more human right violations made in Finland. At the 2015, European Court of Human Rights gave 5 statements about human right violations:

Three of these concerned Article Convention on Human Rights, according to which a single crime can not be punished twice. In practice, this means that, for example, a tax offense can be sentenced to imprisonment and ordered to pay compensation to the tax authorities.

Others were about protracted judicial proceedings.

One which I also remember was the concern of the ombudsman of the parliament about the situation that every prisoners hadn´t own toilet seat in their cells but this matter has been fixed already.

Of course every human right violations are important but I don´t see it´s equal if we compare missing toilet seats in the prison cells and torture of the political prisoners what may happen in some other countries.
Reply

sister herb
03-29-2017, 09:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
turkey is a Muslim country, this is why it's safer for you
Unless if you are gulenist. Then Finland is safer.
Reply

noraina
03-29-2017, 09:27 AM
Wa alaykum assalam,

Islamophobia exists in every country where there isn't a Muslim majority.

And in the UK we have plenty of those rogue politicians who make those outrageous claims about what they think about Muslims. And, thankfully, most people don't take them seriously.

In fact, the UK has a relatively 'large' Muslim population and has its own set of problems concerning xenophobia and racism, just because we may not talk about it all the time doesn't mean we don't recognise that or are under the illusion that our country is perfect or free of problems. No country is perfect. Islamophobia is on the rise everywhere. Having said that, Finland seems to have a better record in that regard than, say, England or America, and those Muslims living in Finland know what they're talking about.

Occasionally I do feel vulnerable when on the streets as a visibly Muslim woman, but would I be any 'safer' in Kashmir, a Muslim country, where my grandparents grew up? Maybe, maybe not.
Reply

azc
03-29-2017, 09:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Unless if you are gulenist. Then Finland is safer.
true. I think Finland is a peaceful country, however, bad people are everywhere whether it is a Muslim or non Muslim country
Reply

anatolian
03-29-2017, 11:15 AM
I dont know why we are comparing Finland and Turkey but these are two different countries with different dynamics. We cant compare these two countries in regard to the Muslim identity. A Muslim in Turkey and a Muslim in Finland are not the same one. So claming that Xists and Yists are like that in Turkey but like that in Finland and vice versa is not logical.
Reply

Abdullah910
03-29-2017, 12:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Well, if someone puts a bomb to the train and kills civilians, they are the victims, just same if they live in the Europe or in the Asia or in America or Africa, are they Muslims or non-Muslims. This is the basic lesson of the humanity.
So you are saying that all humans are equal? A non Muslim is equal to a Muslim according to you?
Reply

sister herb
03-29-2017, 12:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdullah910
So you are saying that all humans are equal? A non Muslim is equal to a Muslim according to you?
Yes. I don´t make any difference between people when it goes to the human rights. Do you?
Reply

Abdullah910
03-29-2017, 12:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Yes. I don´t make any difference between people when it goes to the human rights. Do you?
Yes I do.
I dont believe in freedom. I believe all churches should be destroyed.
Sharia law is the only solution for all problems.
Reply

sister herb
03-29-2017, 01:00 PM
I am not talking about freedom or churches, I am talking about human rights. Try to stay on topic or go to some other thread to destroy churches. This is not the right place for it.
Reply

noraina
03-29-2017, 01:00 PM
Well, that explains everything then.

The Prophet Muhammad :saws: himself forbade the destruction of places of worship or the monks praying in them even during times of war.

But back onto the topic, human rights are fundamental to Islam. Read about the Constitution of Medina, for one.
Reply

islamocurious
03-29-2017, 02:05 PM
Can someone please provide examples of islamophobia? I have not been able to find a clear definition of it?
Reply

Scimitar
03-29-2017, 02:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamocurious
Can someone please provide examples of islamophobia? I have not been able to find a clear definition of it?
TRUMP.

That's a VERY CLEAR DEFINITION of Islamophobia lol

Scimi
Reply

Serinity
03-29-2017, 02:20 PM
When it comes to human rights, we make no distinction between a kafir or Muslim. AFAIK.

So if a Muslim kills and bombs innocents, we condemn it, if a kafir does it, we do too. The assumption that as Muslims we'd overlook a terrorist because he is Muslim, is presumptuous.
Reply

aaj
03-29-2017, 02:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
turkey is a Muslim country, this is why it's safer for you
exactly!


format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Unless if you are gulenist. Then Finland is safer.

until they attempt a coup there as well.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand, if you attempt a coup in any country, you will be treated the same.
Reply

islamocurious
03-29-2017, 02:47 PM
Thanks Scimi. Is questioning, or criticising, Islamic scripture and specific actions of the Prophet Mohammad considered islamophobia?..
Reply

Scimitar
03-29-2017, 02:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamocurious
Thanks Scimi. Is questioning, or criticising, Islamic scripture and specific actions of the Prophet Mohammad considered islamophobia?..
You're welcome,

no. it's considered critique if done withe the intention of researching with honesty, and critique is not necessarily a bad thing. Many critics of Islam have become Muslim in their latter years.

Islamophobia is simply, xenophobia towards Muslims and Islam. it's irrational. and breeds fear among people who do not know Islam nor had the opportunity to know it. Kinda sad really. Personally, I believe the media has polarized Islam through willful ignorance. And it's not helping.

Scimi
Reply

Serinity
03-29-2017, 03:34 PM
I'd characterise those cartoonists, politicians and etc. who only wants to defame Muslims, and wants to ignite hatred, as Islamophobes.

You see, when the cartoonists do something (like draw Prophet Muhammad saws: that is Islamophobic and unacceptable) or politicians ignite senseless fears.. Or say that all Masjids are a place for extremists, audhu billah. then that is something to condemn.

But today we see how cartoonists are protected by their "freedom of speeech" and then are harsh when Muslims speak against it and label it hate speech.. The double standards.. you see??

I am not saying that Muslims bombing innocents is justified by the one's who mock Islam. But that to blame us Muslims isn't a solution. Because I feel offended when we Muslims as a whole get blamed because of the actions of a few.

There is a lack of understanding on the kuffar's side, and sometimes an irrational response from the Muslims.

Allahu alam.
Reply

sister herb
03-29-2017, 03:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj

I don't know why it's so hard to understand, if you attempt a coup in any country, you will be treated the same.
And now you don´t understand; even if some people would attemp a coup in some country, this country still has to respect their human rights, ensure to them legal proceedings and not to persecute all those supporters whose haven´t take part to the actions. Also, prosecutor has to show the real proof they have actually were behind the coup.

In the case of Turkey, the only proof is because Erdogan says so. It´s not enough. Without them, this all is only political vendetta to destroy a political opponent.

And now several human right organizations claim (you don´t have to believe them if the truth hurts), that officers have done also something else, as torture the prisoners. This is called a human right violation.

And one thing, as I mentioned in my earlier post, what causes a scandal in Finland is that prisoners hadn´t their own toilet seats in their cells. Are you sure that every prisoner in the Turkish prisons has own in their cell? If not, should Turkish politicians be concern about this human right violation too?

Now back to Finland as you were so worry about it´s human right violations when created this thread, brother @aaj . Have you found more violations what Finland has done at the last times? I mean plus to those I have found already.

But are you really interesting about human rights in Finland or do you only want to silent me and my endless worrying about human rights?
Reply

Mustafa16
03-29-2017, 04:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
exactly!





until they attempt a coup there as well.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand, if you attempt a coup in any country, you will be treated the same.
how many times do i have to tell you.....THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THE COUP WAS A GULENIST PLOT! the soliders were tortured into giving testimony of being ordered by Gulen, and others were Kemalists who deny ties to Gulen. Even if Gulenists carried out the coup, you fail to understand that in the Turkish military, if you do not obey your commander, they kill you! fethullah gulen and non soldier gulenists strongly condemned the coup, fethullah gulen said, "as a person who has lived through multiple military coups in my lifetime, i condemn all coups" and called for an international investigation. EU, British, German, and American intelligence say Gulen was not behind it, and Turkey has failed to provide proof. GULEN. DID. NOT. CARRY OUT THE COUP!!!!!!!
Reply

islamocurious
03-29-2017, 04:21 PM
If "islamophobia is simply, Xenophobia towards Muslims AND Islam"; is it islamophobia to criticise Islamic scripture and specific prophet Muhammad actions, without criticising Muslims, islamophobia?
Reply

anatolian
03-29-2017, 04:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamocurious
If "islamophobia is simply, Xenophobia towards Muslims AND Islam"; is it islamophobia to criticise Islamic scripture and specific prophet Muhammad actions, without criticising Muslims, islamophobia?
No and no. Any observation based on critical thinking cannot be considered a phobia out of definition. A phobia is the illogical fear of something. So if you like to criticise Islam, just do it. But just make sure that you dont go beyond the limits of the critical mind :)

Actually, in most cases it is just the desire of an attack on Islam out of jealousity or else more than a phobia what people call Islamophobia. People, mostly politicians, use anti-Islamic stance for political gain. This is an intended illogical fear proccess and does not fit into the definition of phobia. Though, there are also people who really fear Islam and Muslims.
Reply

islamocurious
03-29-2017, 04:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
No and no. Any observation based on critical thinking cannot be considered a phobia out of definition. A phobia is the illogical fear of something. So if you like to criticise Islam, just do it. But just make sure that you dont go beyond the limits of the critical mind :)

Actually, in most cases it is just the desire of an attack on Islam out of jealousity or else more than a phobia what people call Islamophobia. People, mostly politicians, use anti-Islamic stance for political gain. This is an intended illogical fear proccess and does not fit into the definition of phobia. Though, there are also people who really fear Islam and Muslims.
Thank you, anatolian. I separate criticism of ideas from criticism of people; because people have rights and ideas do not. I'm studying the Quran and the life of the prophet Mohammed. I'm focussed on the life of Mohammed, and the Quran, not the Muslims of today.
Reply

Scimitar
03-29-2017, 04:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamocurious
If "islamophobia is simply, Xenophobia towards Muslims AND Islam"; is it islamophobia to criticise Islamic scripture and specific prophet Muhammad actions, without criticising Muslims, islamophobia?
I already answered you above, here I quote for you below:

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
You're welcome,

no. it's considered critique if done withe the intention of researching with honesty, and critique is not necessarily a bad thing. Many critics of Islam have become Muslim in their latter years.
But you also have to understand that critics are also critiqued for their method and honesty, and when a critic falls from grace - there's no getting back up again because their professional integrity would be dishonoured and tainted due to their fall.

So when I mentioned how many critics of Islam did end up becoming Muslim, you can easily see how Islam has eventually won over the ignorance of the critics through their investigation into Islam, because they did so with honesty and the pursuit of truth in mind and heart - not animosity and Dunning Kruger syndromes leading their bias instead.

You with me so far?

Scimi
Reply

Futuwwa
03-29-2017, 05:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamocurious
Thank you, anatolian. I separate criticism of ideas from criticism of people; because people have rights and ideas do not. I'm studying the Quran and the life of the prophet Mohammed. I'm focussed on the life of Mohammed, and the Quran, not the Muslims of today.
I don't mind people who don't like Islam on an idea-level. I have several friends who do that, one of them even dares give it to me straight ;D

Islamophobia is, rather, bigotry against Muslims as a group, and that's a different thing. The distinction is relevant, but the circles on the Venn diagram have a lot of overlap. A great many people who criticize the idea also use our adherence to the idea against us, and advocate retaliating against us for it.
Reply

anatolian
03-29-2017, 07:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamocurious
Thank you, anatolian. I separate criticism of ideas from criticism of people; because people have rights and ideas do not. I'm studying the Quran and the life of the prophet Mohammed. I'm focussed on the life of Mohammed, and the Quran, not the Muslims of today.
Alright. So, it seems there is no problem with your attitude..

Btw, are you a Christian?
Reply

aaj
03-29-2017, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
And now you don´t understand; even if some people would attemp a coup in some country, this country still has to respect their human rights, ensure to them legal proceedings and not to persecute all those supporters whose haven´t take part to the actions. Also, prosecutor has to show the real proof they have actually were behind the coup.

In the case of Turkey, the only proof is because Erdogan says so. It´s not enough. Without them, this all is only political vendetta to destroy a political opponent.

And now several human right organizations claim (you don´t have to believe them if the truth hurts), that officers have done also something else, as torture the prisoners. This is called a human right violation.

And one thing, as I mentioned in my earlier post, what causes a scandal in Finland is that prisoners hadn´t their own toilet seats in their cells. Are you sure that every prisoner in the Turkish prisons has own in their cell? If not, should Turkish politicians be concern about this human right violation too?

Now back to Finland as you were so worry about it´s human right violations when created this thread, brother @aaj . Have you found more violations what Finland has done at the last times? I mean plus to those I have found already.

But are you really interesting about human rights in Finland or do you only want to silent me and my endless worrying about human rights?
You think your country still have human rights and all that, just like trump's supporters think US is a champion of human rights and is the greatest nation. Trust me, if a terrorist act happens in your county and the caught culprit was isis member and you had several people living n Finland that were isis supporter then they would be rounded up and taken. Deny it if you will or if the truth hurts, but that's how it will be in any government.

No body here lives in turkey, and everyone is going by the so called reports of the west that itself engages in far worst human rights violations or the traitors who will say lies to make a mountain out of a mole because they failed.

Why don't all you "worried" people actually go talk to the turkish people living in turkey right now and see what they say. I don't mean the bear worshiping kuffars there.

believe it or not, torture happens in all nations, even your "perfect" finland. Just because it hasn't come to light doesn't mean it is nonexistent.

I"m not really interested in finding such violations in finland, i would think you would try to do that more harder than focusing your energy on just turkey based on some so called reports.

I don't want to silence you, if there are such violations happening in turkey then they will come to light one day from inside turkey and not the west and it's propaganda apparatus engaged in invading all Muslim lands. And even if they were happening, it doesn't necessarily means that erdogan is aware of it or personally approving it like obama with his drones.

So, no, i don't want to silence you but i am annoyed by this constant attacking turkey and erdogan with no real proofs, thread after thread.
Reply

sister herb
03-29-2017, 08:13 PM
Turkey isn´t my only area I make noise. In this forum just happens to be members whose lately have taken it to discussion. In other forums or other places I attack against other dictators and against those whose violate the human rights.

In other thread I have already posted information that many human right organizations report about human right violations in Turkey, so you can´t claim I haven´t any proof. Believe me, human right activists don´t collect information about kind of violations for fun. There happens always something wrong when they write their reports.

Could you now, because of your claim, show some proof that here is torture in Finland? The proof isn´t that "it is everywhere".
Reply

anatolian
03-29-2017, 08:18 PM
I am a Turkish person living in Turkey. Ofcourse I dont represent all since there are 80 millions of us..However, what people say has some truth. Erodğan and his political movement started as fresh moderate Islamic movement but they have rapidly got corrupted within the years..They act condtrary to basic Islamic teachings most of time. They don't respect peoples' rights which is most sacred right in Islam after declaring Shahada as you know..

I too think that the coup attempt was a job of CIA, and Gulenist spies in the state (Maybe Fethullah Gülen himself was unaware, I dont know) but an approximate 4 million gulen jamaat members are estimateed in Turkey and a vast majority of these people had no idea of what was going on on that night. However, our respected president and his party did not fear of condemning all these people of the attempt and being members of a terrorist organization and persecuted them. They imprisoned them and captured their properties. They even persecuted Kemalists and leftists which they dont like labeling them as gulenists...A great "parody" is going on now in Turkey.

Why are they doing this? Because although they were so close until a few years ago, they got seperated and some gulenist public prosecuters revealed all the bribery of ERdoğan and AKP members. And they got mad of that..
Reply

Scimitar
03-29-2017, 08:27 PM
There aint a leader alive i can respect today.

From either end of the spectrum, secular and belief. Not One Leader. Just dictators, tyrants, and fall men.

Scimi
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 37
    Last Post: 08-14-2011, 08:22 PM
  2. Replies: 34
    Last Post: 03-24-2007, 10:02 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!