Is Islam a Feminist Religion?

[islamocurious]

A growing number of Hijabis are declaring that they are Muslim feminists. Yassmin Abdel-Magied stated, on the Australian Q&A program that "...Islam, to me, is THE most feminist religion, right?"

https://www.theguardian.com/global/v...am-on-qa-video

[anatolian]

Nope. Islam is not a somethingist religion. Islam has its own ideals and goals. Feminizm is an ideology created by mankind like humanism, communism, idealism etc. and has its flaws. Islam doesnt. It is perfect until getting corrupted by people.

[islamocurious]

Do you know what the definition of feminism is?

[M.I.A.]

feminism is just another bandwagon..

if muslim women think todays feminsts groups represent them then they are mislead.

if they develop there own identity and groups with agendas it is another matter.

the but of the joke is that.. pious men have acceptable wives.

and thats a hard lesson to learn..

if you open the door to the wrong people even your wives wont do right by you.

honestly its a twisted world..

only the strongest will inherit it...

or something like that.

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[anatolian]

Do you know what the definition of feminism is?

The complete equality of women and men

[M.I.A.]

The complete equality of women and men

thats what i said!

mine was just a warning because i struggle like hell myself.

[happymuslim]

If feminism is the complete equalitu of men and women, that's flawed because biologically its not true, but there's nothing wrong with that. Islam actually recognizes those differenes as regards to the shari ah of dress wear and after puberty the rules are different, but on the other hand islam gives human rights and that also applies to women. Islam was introduced into a time where women were barely considered human beings so islam brought women rights ie. Like the riht to property, the right to education, the right to divorce..etc.

[islamocurious]

Feminism is equality of the sexes; nothing more, nothing less. This is at the human level, and irrespective of the colour of your skin or your religion.

BTW What do you mean by '...just another bandwagon'? Can you provide examples in consideration of the definition I provided above, thanks.

[M.I.A.]

well, its just a label..

it is by no means reflective of what is hoped for or accomplished..

by those representing it.

...its like asking if ISIS represent the word jihad properly?


but if thats what they say they are then.. who am i to disagree?

[ZeeshanParvez]

No, it is not.

Islaam is the perfect Religion of Allaah based on truth and justice.

Feminism is based on the personal whims of a select few.

[Simple_Person]

Feminism is equality of the sexes; nothing more, nothing less. This is at the human level, and irrespective of the colour of your skin or your religion.

BTW What do you mean by '...just another bandwagon'? Can you provide examples in consideration of the definition I provided above, thanks.

Islam is NOT the same as feminism and what you are saying is even contradictory to Islamic values. Let me give you a example. In Islam if the husband works, he has to spend from the money he has earned on his family also on his wife. If his wife also works her money belongs to her and her husband is not even entitled to once penny of it. However feminism ideology would rather be 50/50. So husband spends on the household and the wife also MUST spend on the household. So again, NO Islam just like many other ideologies have SOME things in common, but just what is in common doesn't make it the same.

Feminism as the movement at the beginning started off good, with good intention at heart, however we already have reached "third-wave feminism". This wave isn't about equality any more, it is about superiority over men. That is why a new men movement has come to existence called MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way).

These are the women for example that just have forgotten or never have learned that men and women CANNOT become equal on ALL fronts. Equality is good based on your sex (voting, pay for same kind of job and in that direction), however that's just about it. Women tend to follow emotions more than the mind and men tend to follow mind more than emotions. One completes the other and one cannot become the other as the nature cannot change. Desires can change and corrupt mentality, but nature not.

[M.I.A.]

wow. i could never hit a women..

i lose grasp of the english language sometimes when women start stuff.

very mean things sometimes.. although what women want is a mystery.

[islamocurious]

LOL The 1950's when husbands could have their wives committed to a mental asylum! We've moved I since then.

We may have something in common in that I also do not agree with this 3rd wave feminism. For eg. Hijabis calling themselves feminist who are focused on their right to COVER in the hijab, niqab, burqua, etc, in the West, whilst sisters in Islamic countries are being beaten, jailed, are having acid thrown in their faces or even killed for not covering. Not to mention the ignorant so-called feminists who support them.

It is shameful. Women have equal rights in most western democracies and the same rights as men under the law. This cannot be said for women living in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc.

[Scimitar]

Do you know what the definition of feminism is?

Feminsim has many faces, from the militant lesbian, to the muslimah - and anything inbetween.

There are types of feminism.

Can you identify them for us?

Scimi

[Scimitar]

LOL The 1950's when husbands could have their wives committed to a mental asylum!

in the west ;)

We've moved I since then.

yes, and the family unit was destroyed by the liberation movements of the 60's which saw all sorts of social ills come to the fore which we are now, sufferring collectively against, in the whole world.

We may have something in common in that I also do not agree with this 3rd wave feminism. For eg. Hijabis calling themselves feminist who are focused on their right to COVER in the hijab, niqab, burqua, etc, in the West, whilst sisters in Islamic countries are being beaten, jailed, are having acid thrown in their faces or even killed for not covering. Not to mention the ignorant so-called feminists who support them.

Interesting analysis :)

I've personally counted more than 3 waves of feminism. But that's neither here nor there - the idea is that feminism has gained traction in all its forms. Ideoligcally, femimism is antithetical to humanism. If I was to make a case for malism in the modern world, would you see it as justified? Nope. SO how can we allow ideas such as feminism to gain traction in a morally fortified society?

the answer is, this Feminsim only happens in societies where morality has taken a massive back seat.

Had the thinkers discussed the issue rationally, they'd have ensured laws were put in place where women had equal rights without the label of being "feminism" but instead "equality for all".

It is shameful. Women have equal rights in most western democracies and the same rights as men under the law. This cannot be said for women living in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc.

If your proof is the media, then I have to scoff.

However I have visited Arabia on occasion, and have seen for myself how political power plays of Kings who are not reflective of Muslim Democratic Process of choosing a leader - are adopting laws that are not Islamic. These are politically nuanced issues within the Muslim world and not reflective of Islamic values.

Scimi

[aaj]

A good read on the subject:

http://www.islam101.com/women/jameelah.htm

[Simple_Person]

LOL The 1950's when husbands could have their wives committed to a mental asylum! We've moved I since then.

No sister we (Humanity) has not moved on, they have gone even further backward. For example in the "modern" day, people shout that they have "freedom" and "democracy", however when one REALLY investigates and ponders about things going one. It is everything but democracy and everything BUT freedom. We live in a "modern"-dictatorship. In countries that are being branded as dictatorship, it is clearly visible it is a dictatorship. However knowing it is a dictatorship, you adjust your position to it. However in the west it is a hidden dictatorship. People do what they are being told and if you disagree, you are being branded a person who is against "freedom" and "democracy". People are being played by governments through psychological means. The last few years since the rise of ISIS, if you look and it doesn't have to be even that focused you will see the hypocrisy and indeed living in a modern dictatorship. So what has happened to women? Women through psychological way being convinced that dressing less is freedom. People look at these women as "hookers" and have no respect for them, but media and these governments say she is walking the life of "freedom" and "happiness". Her value even from the perspective of her husband has gone down the drain. Her own husband even feels proud if other men are looking at his woman like Hyena's. He has lost all his jealousy towards his own wife. He shares his own wife with other men. He experiments sexually with her beyond her dignity. She works also, but he also demands her part of the money. Sister, in the 1950's was bad, but it has gone worse. Rasullah(saws) has said that the world will become so corrupted, so logically looking at this, this means the more we go further and closer to the Day of Judgement, the corrupter the society becomes. So women had less rights, but now they have gained "rights", but not as what she was fighting for. It is like a car driving on a road, if you just LITTLE BIT turn the car to the left the further down the road it will go off road. This is exactly what has happened to her. However she had less rights and she was brought to the road but was not adjusted to stay on the road. It just goes off road the other side of the road. You get me?

We may have something in common in that I also do not agree with this 3rd wave feminism. For eg. Hijabis calling themselves feminist who are focused on their right to COVER in the hijab, niqab, burqua, etc, in the West, whilst sisters in Islamic countries are being beaten, jailed, are having acid thrown in their faces or even killed for not covering. Not to mention the ignorant so-called feminists who support them.

Rasullah(saws) has said stay with the Qur'an and his sunnah. As long as we stick to that, we will be on the right path. Branding yourself a feminism is already slowly going off road. For example you have to Muslim women in the west being all pro-feminist, however people who are gay and transgenders also are including themselves with the feminists movement. In other words, if you brand yourself a feminists and actively help those groups, you gain your hijab, but you are also pushing the LGBT-agenda. Gaining something is good, but setting off the other thing off balance is not good whatsoever. Last week or so i was pondering about hijab and i was amazed about what came to my mind. For women in Islam who are married is not mandatory to work. So if she has to choose between her hijab or her work. Well she could easily look for another job and for the time being she could stay home. For the man, his beard is also not mandatory, so also based on this they cannot fire him. This life is all a test, it isn't mean to be the paradise. You have to sacrifice somethings for the sake of Allah. However free will is given to us to also not go His way, but there are also consequences to that as we have chosen to live this life.

It is shameful. Women have equal rights in most western democracies and the same rights as men under the law. This cannot be said for women living in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc.

Again, flush away what you believe about equal rights all over the world. You look at a complete wrong perspective. Your perspective is like this. You look at the west and say mas'sha'Allah the car has both his left tires in tact but is missing the right tires. The people in the Middle East (culture) are looking at the car and say ma'sha'Alla the car has his right tires in tact but on the left is missing both his left tires.

The practicing Muslim is looking at the car from the back and sees only 1 left tire and 1 right tire.

So what am i trying to say here? A practicing Muslim sees some good things in the west and some good things in the Middle East(culture). However both are missing some things here and some things there. The perspective of the practicing Muslim (Islam) is the right perspective as he still sees a defect car. The car being the woman missing her rights. The practicing Muslim is a person that will not agree with the people of the left or with people of the right. This is i believe also the right approach to this, because as a Muslim we do not follow our will, but the will of Allah and Allah has given the woman her rights and should be given her even if she thinks her rights are something else. You do not give her what she thinks her rights are, you give her what Allah has given her as her rights. As in the west for example, women who are dressed in tight clothes often wants you to look at her and give her attention. However Allah has given her rights to look away and not at her(body).

[islamocurious]

Feminism does mean equality for all. It has been twisted by 'new wave' feminists to have almost lost its intended meaning. It was coined by women who were fighting for equal rights to men at a time that that they didn't. Women in democracies now have those rights; women in Islamic theocracies do not.

But I guess you, and Islamic scripture, have answered my question; Women do not have the same rights as men under Islamic law; as they do under democratic law.

For Muslim women, to refer to themselves as Muslim feminists is wrong. Muslim feminist is, therefore, an oxymoron.

I think we both agree, albeit for varying reasons, that Islam is not a feminist religion. In fact, to be fair, women are not treated equally in any religion so none are.

In conclusion, to ensure equality for all; separating church/mosque and state ensures equality for all, regardless of religion, gender or the colour of their skin. Democracy may not be perfect but it is fairer, to men and women, than any other alternative on offer.

Thanks for discussing.

[Scimitar]

In fact, to be fair, women are not treated equally in any religion so none are.

Islam is all about equity, mutual complimentary rights. Not polarised rights as in what the west propagates.

So you would be wrong to claim that in Islam women are treated unfairly.

If that was the case, why is that PEW released stats showing 4/1 converts to islam are women from the west? Are the western women ignorant of your claim that women are treated unfairly in Islam? Nope,

Just ask any of the convert sisters to this forum - of which there are MANY, and here what they have to say.

In conclusion, to ensure equality for all; separating church/mosque and state ensures equality for all, regardless of religion, gender or the colour of their skin. Democracy may not be perfect but it is fairer, to men and women, than any other alternative on offer.

Thanks for discussing.

You need to revise this "conclusion" :)

It's not reflecting any reality, but polarity ;)

Scimi

[noraina]

I studied sociology for A-level, and feminism is one of the central perspectives studied.

And from what I have read, there are many forms of feminism - radical, liberal, socialist, whatever. But the vast majority of them have a central problem in that they are very ethnocentric, their perspective is focused on a Western-oriented ideal of women's 'liberation' which I as a Muslim woman don't identify with entirely. For them what is regarded as oppression is not oppression for me, and what I might regard as oppression is not oppression for them.

I'm not entirely comfortable with saying Islam is a feminist religion. We could say that because of zakat or it's demand for the fair distribution of wealth it is a 'communist' religion, or any other label like that.

Islam is Islam, a century ago there was no such thing as feminism - and feminism has changed a great deal and probably will change much more in the future. But Islam won't change.

And it's true, most Muslim countries are far from perfect, but this has nothing to do with Islam and actually it is the *lack* of Islamic values and knowledge that creates these problems. And as for whether capitalism or democracy is fairer - that's very debatable.

[islamocurious]

A good read on the subject:

http://www.islam101.com/women/jameelah.htm

A lengthy article which makes some interesting points...

For those of us that do not believe that men are superior to women, nor that women are superior to men:

GOLDEN RULE is best: treat others as you would wish to be treated.

At the end of the day, on a human level we are the same. We all experience pain, happiness, sadness, love, joy, etc.

[Scimitar]

GOLDEN RULE is best: treat others as you would wish to be treated.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh taught us this.

Scimi

[Simple_Person]

Feminism does mean equality for all. It has been twisted by 'new wave' feminists to have almost lost its intended meaning. It was coined by women who were fighting for equal rights to men at a time that that they didn't. Women in democracies now have those rights; women in Islamic theocracies do not.

But I guess you, and Islamic scripture, have answered my question; Women do not have the same rights as men under Islamic law; as they do under democratic law.

For Muslim women, to refer to themselves as Muslim feminists is wrong. Muslim feminist is, therefore, an oxymoron.

I think we both agree, albeit for varying reasons, that Islam is not a feminist religion. In fact, to be fair, women are not treated equally in any religion so none are.

In conclusion, to ensure equality for all; separating church/mosque and state ensures equality for all, regardless of religion, gender or the colour of their skin. Democracy may not be perfect but it is fairer, to men and women, than any other alternative on offer.

Thanks for discussing.

No you don't get it. You cannot say "Democracy may not be perfect but it is fairer, to men and women, than any other alternative on offer.". I say this as an ex-atheist. I have pondered about this subject also. What you said is the SAME believe i also tend to have as "it is not perfect but it is fairer". Sister, in this world there is SERIOUSLY and i am not saying this because i am an Muslim, but seriously there is no better way than the Islamic way for women as we are talking about women, but even for everything. From nature, to behavior, to seeking knowledge, to family rulings, you name it.

Women are being held in such a high regard that i am sometimes confused how women do not see that. In Islam when women are covered and she talks, people LISTEN to what she is saying, not to what she is showing. To give you an example. You see a homeless guy and he is having a talk with you about life and is sharing his wisdom. Just you looking at him, you judge him as we are human beings. In this case with women is the same. People tend to look at her body and judge her body or in case of men being distracted and not paying any attention to what she is saying. They HEAR her talking, but are NOT LISTENING to what she is saying if she is not covered.

There are some SICK people in society that cannot control their desires and would sexually assault women. Some act upon what turns them on, but when they see a covered woman, nothing is ignited as there is nothing to see. Among men are dogs that will assault any woman, covered or not covered. Islam gives a male guardian to also protect the woman.

Praying at the mosque gives 27 more reward for the man and i believe a woman when she prays at home she gets this equal reward. I speak as a man, that it is super hard to pray at the mosque every single prayer.

When she works, all what she earns belongs to herself. If she doesn't work still all good and her husband still in both cases has to provide her.

She is not obliged to do household work, but often she does it out of the goodness of her heart. Being in charge of something is not easy in life. When somebody is taking care of you, suddenly you could say life becomes a lot easier. Just thinking about childhood. No stress, rent is being paid, school is being paid, water is being paid, food is being paid.

By western ideology one could almost say that it is rather inequality as she gets way more out of this than the man. Yet something is missing that western ideology doesn't seem to understand. I am not sure if this is the covering part? Or something else. Every aspect of the Islamic way of life has a reason to be for what it is to be. Just recently it came to my mind that the western ideologies will see indeed that all the solutions to the problems they are having are in Islam. To give you one of the many examples.

In Islam if a child is adopted, he/she MUST stick to her original name (last name etc.). This being that the contact sticks between the biological parents. Just recently there is some sick mental disease (Genetic Sexual Attraction) on the rise. The biological mother having sexual relationship with the son after 20 years or so finally meeting up.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/08/09/mother...other-6057790/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6976701.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ed-incest.html

And there are more cases still rising.

[Simple_Person]

A lengthy article which makes some interesting points...

For those of us that do not believe that men are superior to women, nor that women are superior to men:

GOLDEN RULE is best: treat others as you would wish to be treated.

At the end of the day, on a human level we are the same. We all experience pain, happiness, sadness, love, joy, etc.

In Islam this is understood very clearly. However in western ideology and Middle Eastern CULTURE men see themselves superior than women if they do not agree with equal rights in general and the present day third-wave feminism sees themselves superior to men. Men and women completes the lack of ability the other is missing, like women have a far superior emotional side, while men by basic logic, rationality and reason are superior to women. I am not saying they are "dumb", no because of their superior emotional side, they tend to include this in their judgement. Their judgement based on feeling might sometimes be better than men, but other times this could rather be cause of some problems.

Women get get pregnant, men can give the seed. There are even cases that some women because they have no man in their life, they trick some men in to intimate sexual act. With that lying about that they are taking the pill to just get pregnant as their desire to have a child is beyond control. I know this is just wrong, but without seed from where ever they cannot have their own child.

Men are by physical power superior than women, while women are superior by coping out with pain than men. So again one fulfills what the other is missing.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

In conclusion, to ensure equality for all; separating church/mosque and state ensures equality for all, regardless of religion, gender or the colour of their skin. Democracy may not be perfect but it is fairer, to men and women, than any other alternative on offer.

Thanks for discussing.

'Equality for all' doesn't make sense, as numerous people have pointed out. The following post from a recent thread illustrates this quite well:

Originally posted by Umm♥Layth
I think the main reason you find it "unfair" is because of the western ideas of equality. We should be able to do the same things men do right? Actually, that's not quite true. We are different creatures with different needs. If we all had the same rules and regulations, it would be very unfair.

The following also elaborates on this:

'...the new wave of feminism does not have achievable goals – it simply creates “competition” between men and women by ignoring the differences between the sexes and simply concentrating on what a man can do, a woman can too. As humans beings we need to learn to respect the differences between men and women, and perceive these differences positively. “Equality” does not mean that men and women should be identical, or treated the same. However, this is the image some feminists want to create, that equality is synonymous with the third wave of feminism'.

You posted a list of allegations against women's rights in Islam, which I removed from your post because most likely it was copy and pasted from a anti-Islamic website. It seems you harbour many misconceptions about Islamic teachings and are further confusing them with media headlines and unIslamic behaviour. You will find most if not all such allegations refuted many times. See these links for further information:

https://www.islamicboard.com/clarifi...ml#post1550563
https://www.islamicboard.com/clarifi...ml#post1550874

[Scimitar]

Islam is all about equity, mutual complimentary rights. Not polarised rights as in what the west propagates.

That is the difference which Muhammad so nicely demonstrated with that image.

Now do you see the difference, Islamocurious, between what you call Equality AND what you really want - Equity ??

This is an Islamic teaching, which is misunderstood in the west due to polarity.

You've had the opportunity to learn first hand, from Muslims about this.

God bless,

Scimi

[islamocurious]

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh taught us this.

Scimi

Where in the Quran? Although the golden rule predates the bible, it does include it:

Matthew 7:12 - In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

[Scimitar]

Abdullah ibn Al-Muntafiq reported: I said, “O Messenger of Allah, teach me what will save me from the punishment of Allah and admit me into Paradise.” The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Worship Allah and do not associate anything with Him, establish the prescribed prayers, and give the obligatory charity, Fast the month of Ramadan, and treat people the way you would love to be treated, and do not treat them the way you would hate to be treated.”
Source: al-Mu’jam al-Kabīr 15833
Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Albani

...
Abu Sirmah reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Whoever harms others, then Allah will harm him. Whoever is harsh with others, then Allah will be harsh with him.”
Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 1940
Grade: Hasan (fair) according to Ibn Hajar

...

“None of you have faith until you love for your neighbor what you love for yourself” (Sahih Muslim)

“Whoever wishes to be delivered from the fire and to enter Paradise…should treat the people as he wishes to be treated.” (Sahih Muslim)

“None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself” (Forty Hadith-Nawawi)

“None of you is a believer if he eats his full while his neighbour hasn’t anything.” (Musnad)

“Do unto all men as you would wish to have done unto you; and reject for others what you would reject for yourselves.” (Abu Dawud)

“Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you.” (Farewell Sermon)

“There should be neither harming nor reciprocating harm.” (Ibn- Majah)

There are so many. These are only a few.

Scimi

[islamocurious]

Greetings,


'Equality for all' doesn't make sense, as numerous people have pointed out. The following post from a recent thread illustrates this quite well:

Originally posted by Umm[emoji813]Layth
I think the main reason you find it "unfair" is because of the western ideas of equality. We should be able to do the same things men do right? Actually, that's not quite true. We are different creatures with different needs. If we all had the same rules and regulations, it would be very unfair.

The following also elaborates on this:

'...the new wave of feminism does not have achievable goals – it simply creates “competition” between men and women by ignoring the differences between the sexes and simply concentrating on what a man can do, a woman can too. As humans beings we need to learn to respect the differences between men and women, and perceive these differences positively. “Equality” does not mean that men and women should be identical, or treated the same. However, this is the image some feminists want to create, that equality is synonymous with the third wave of feminism'.

You posted a list of allegations against women's rights in Islam, which I removed from your post because most likely it was copy and pasted from a anti-Islamic website. It seems you harbour many misconceptions about Islamic teachings and are further confusing them with media headlines and unIslamic behaviour. You will find most if not all such allegations refuted many times. See these links for further information:

https://www.islamicboard.com/clarifi...ml#post1550563
https://www.islamicboard.com/clarifi...ml#post1550874

The list of allegations against women's rights in Islam, as you put it, I cross checked against an Islamic site: http://corpus.quran.com/

Which supports the list I posted.

You appear to be saying that you prefer Islamic sharia to democratic law; is this correct?

[anatolian]

We can rather say Islam is a "femalist" religion. :)

[Scimitar]

You appear to be saying that you prefer Islamic sharia to democratic law; is this correct?

I'm smirking lol

I tell you why.

Islam saw the first true democracy with the first khaliphs, who were chosen by the people due to their status in the Arab community in being fair, honest and God fearing folk who feared displeasing God and did not see themselves as Rulers - rather, as Civil Servants, ordained by God to lead humanity out of ignorance.

At that time in the world, the world had NO DEMOCRACY, and the first example of "chosen leadership" was during the first khaliphate, of Abu Bakr As Siddique RA.

This set the pattern of things to come. Yet, soon as the golden age was dwindling out, and the renaissance edging in, the democratic process by which leadership is chosen in the Arab Muslim world, was adopted by the Europeans, and guess what? they butchered it - this after the magna carta was established which claimed Rights of the People - while subjugating them to tyrannical practices,

You can't make your claim work, history itself is against it.

Scimi

[Muhammad]

The list of allegations against women's rights in Islam, as you put it, I cross checked against an Islamic site: http://corpus.quran.com/

Which supports the list I posted.

What you have posted is a search engine for an English translation of the Qur'an. However, earlier you posted claims which were taking verses of the Qur'an out of context. You cannot simply quote a verse of the Qur'an and assume it means whatever you want to. If you refer to the links I posted earlier, you will find many of the issues addressed there.

[islamocurious]

I'm smirking lol

I tell you why.

Islam saw the first true democracy with the first khaliphs, who were chosen by the people due to their status in the Arab community in being fair, honest and God fearing folk who feared displeasing God and did not see themselves as Rulers - rather, as Civil Servants, ordained by God to lead humanity out of ignorance.

At that time in the world, the world had NO DEMOCRACY, and the first example of "chosen leadership" was during the first khaliphate, of Abu Bakr As Siddique RA.

This set the pattern of things to come. Yet, soon as the golden age was dwindling out, and the renaissance edging in, the democratic process by which leadership is chosen in the Arab Muslim world, was adopted by the Europeans, and guess what? they butchered it - this after the magna carta was established which claimed Rights of the People - while subjugating them to tyrannical practices,

You can't make your claim work, history itself is against it.

Scimi

Hmmm, interesting... Sharia is certainly not compatible with democracy, as it is, today so I guess you do prefer Islamic sharia over current democracy?

[Simple_Person]

Hmmm, interesting... Sharia is certainly not compatible with democracy, as it is, today so I guess you do prefer Islamic sharia over current democracy?

In Islamic Law, there is Shari'a and there is additional human interpretation. Shari'a cannot be changed, so homosexuality within Islamic law prohibited. This part of the Law comes as commandment from Allah. Within Shari'a isn't just "law" what is permissible and what is prohibited. Within this is also for example that Muslims must pray, although this doesn't mean if you stop praying that you must be punished or something like that.

The other part is the human interpretation. These are minor details. For example when you pay attention to the minor details of the prayer with Muslims you see at different part of the world, these interpretation differ. Not agreeing with one, doesn't mean you go against Islam.

Democracy is based on human understanding of what THEY today might accept. So for example homosexuality is accepted and now a days even promoted. If today X is red, tomorrow X might become blue, as people can change their own rulings. In Islam X stays red (Shari'a part - the part as commandment of Allah), no matter how many years go by. So saying you do not agree with democracy, has a reason behind it. Now a days people tend to make things very simplistic as if it is black and white. But nothing in life is black and white with a simplistic answer as yes or no.

Is shari'a compatible with democracy? As far as nothing is being forced upon me, it is compatible. Although homosexuality is being promoted, doesn't mean i must do something violent against them but also within a Islamic society nobody can just violently go kill them or hurt them. No i speak out as i object to the practice, but more than that i cannot. When is shari'a not compatible with this "democracy" in the west? When people want you to be their clones. In other words if they force you to eat pork, drink alcohol, if they prohibit to be able to pray or have a house of worship (mosque). So as long as Muslims are left alone to do what they are commanded to do (within the law of the country), than it is perfectly compatible. A Muslim might not vote during a election, but in this democracy is also a choice right? You can vote and you are also free to not vote.

[islamocurious]

We can rather say Islam is a "femalist" religion. :)

[emoji23] But nah, the discussions on this forum are leading me to believe, rightly or wrongly, that Islam is Islam. Hijabis in the west are telling Muslims and non-Muslims that Islam is feminist and that its compatible with western democracy.

As a result; Muslims, that may have never read the Quran, and non Muslims are reading it, and the life of prophet Mohammad and Hadiths. There are also a growing number of reformist Muslims that say it should undergo a reformation, similar to Christianity. But from what I'm learning from Islamic scripture, forums, and imams, etc. is that Islam does not need a reformation and must remain unchanged.

BTW. Are you able to recommend imams to listen to? Zakir Naik seems to have a very large following.

Thank you!

[Scimitar]

Hmmm, interesting... Sharia is certainly not compatible with democracy, as it is, today so I guess you do prefer Islamic sharia over current democracy?

Your hubris is cute. Shariah is not a rigid law system, it is flexible and you'd be surprised to learn how much the West has borrowed from the Shariah of Islam.

Research it, :)

Stuff they don't teach you in school, eh?

Scimi

[islamocurious]

I'm smirking lol

I tell you why.

Islam saw the first true democracy with the first khaliphs, who were chosen by the people due to their status in the Arab community in being fair, honest and God fearing folk who feared displeasing God and did not see themselves as Rulers - rather, as Civil Servants, ordained by God to lead humanity out of ignorance.

At that time in the world, the world had NO DEMOCRACY, and the first example of "chosen leadership" was during the first khaliphate, of Abu Bakr As Siddique RA.

This set the pattern of things to come. Yet, soon as the golden age was dwindling out, and the renaissance edging in, the democratic process by which leadership is chosen in the Arab Muslim world, was adopted by the Europeans, and guess what? they butchered it - this after the magna carta was established which claimed Rights of the People - while subjugating them to tyrannical practices,

You can't make your claim work, history itself is against it.

Scimi

Hi Scimi

Democracy means people-power or rule by the people. The idea came from the ancient Greeks who combined the words demos (people) and krates (rule) to create the term. Some historians believe that goes even further back than Ancient Greece, and prior to Christianity and Islam.

Islam sharia is the law of Allah that rules over the lives of people, is it not? That in Islam, Muslims adhere to Islamic sharia/law:God's law, not democracy which was created by humans.

What is your historical source? I can't find any. And to be honest, it seems that democracy; because it was man made, is the antithesis of Islamic sharia which is God's law.

Ciao for now

[Scimitar]

Hi Scimi

Democracy means people-power or rule by the people. The idea came from the ancient Greeks who combined the words demos (people) and krates (rule) to create the term. Some historians believe that goes even further back than Ancient Greece, and prior to Christianity and Islam.

Islam sharia is the law of Allah that rules over the lives of people, is it not? That in Islam, Muslims adhere to Islamic sharia/law:God's law, not democracy which was created by humans.

What is your historical source? I can't find any. And to be honest, it seems that democracy; because it was man made, is the antithesis of Islamic sharia which is God's law.

Ciao for now

except the ancient Greeks weren't ruled by a democracy, rather, theocracy full of tyrannical hungry men who entertained "conquest" as ameans to glorify their nations - not humanity.

I mentioned that Islam gave the world a PURE FORM OF DEMOCRACY, not a corrupted version of it, like the Greeks you claim started it, did. ;)

ciao bella

Scimi

[Simple_Person]

except the ancient Greeks weren't ruled by a democracy, rather, theocracy full of tyrannical hungry men who entertained "conquest" as ameans to glorify their nations - not humanity.

I mentioned that Islam gave the world a PURE FORM OF DEMOCRACY, not a corrupted version of it, like the Greeks you claim started it, did. ;)

ciao bella

Scimi

Funny about what you are saying is that also in this day and age it is rather a theocracy. So a theocracy under the banner of a democracy controlled my psychological means of propaganda and censorship.

In the recent years things have become very clear of this fact when a referendum has been setup. A referendum is the core of democracy and suddenly when one pays attention to it you will see the people "representing" the people show their unhappiness when this referendum has been pushed by the people. In other words control is taken out of their hands. In the Netherlands it was visible with whole Ukraine issue in UK was visible with the result of Brexit even by democratic rules in US was visible with the elections. In is very clear to notice this but people are preoccupied not able to notice it.

Democracy never will work. When democracy and let's say referendums are being pushed for every single decision you will see that society collapses. So even in referendums by means of propaganda governments are trying to influence the minds of people. So indeed a theocracy.

[Scimitar]

Funny about what you are saying is that also in this day and age it is rather a theocracy.

I was hoping someone would notice the Easter Egg I left lol.

Well done bro.

Scimi

[anatolian]

[emoji23] But nah, the discussions on this forum are leading me to believe, rightly or wrongly, that Islam is Islam. Hijabis in the west are telling Muslims and non-Muslims that Islam is feminist and that its compatible with western democracy.

As a result; Muslims, that may have never read the Quran, and non Muslims are reading it, and the life of prophet Mohammad and Hadiths. There are also a growing number of reformist Muslims that say it should undergo a reformation, similar to Christianity. But from what I'm learning from Islamic scripture, forums, and imams, etc. is that Islam does not need a reformation and must remain unchanged.

BTW. Are you able to recommend imams to listen to? Zakir Naik seems to have a very large following.

Thank you!

If we are giving you that impresion we are doing a good job then. Bc Islam is Islam :)

Islam is not compatible with the western democracy. But it is compatible with human and women rights. The rights can be achieved only if you give the rights of your Creator. Because you owe your entire existance to Him.

There is already a "re-formation" going on within Muslims. The west call it "Protestant Islam". I am rather neutral about it

I generally dont listen to english speaking preachers but yes Zakir Naik seems to have a deep grasp.

PS: I confused him with Ahmed Deedat. Listen to his lectures

[Serinity]

:salam:

Anyone who says or thinks that Islam, itself, can "change" in any way shape or form, has committed kufr, and is a kafir. AFAIK

The West claims that Islam is oppressive on women - I fail to see that. Because when I look at Islamic Law, all I see is justice done to women.

They are not objectified, and in-doctrinated to think that showing your body is being "free". - Like the West has done.

Allahu alam.

[Futuwwa]

Is Islam a Feminist Religion?

Can't say, "feminism" is such an imprecise, charged term nowadays.

We may have something in common in that I also do not agree with this 3rd wave feminism. For eg. Hijabis calling themselves feminist who are focused on their right to COVER in the hijab, niqab, burqua, etc, in the West, whilst sisters in Islamic countries are being beaten, jailed, are having acid thrown in their faces or even killed for not covering. Not to mention the ignorant so-called feminists who support them.

Why is the existence of forced covering in certain Islamic countries of any relevance for the question of Western Muslims' right to choose whether to cover?

[beleiver]

I would be as bold to say that back in his day in the context of how women were treated, Mohamed was a feminist..Way ahead of his time..

What happened? Guardians and forced full face veils and insane dress codes? Anyone seen the clip of school girls being herded with a stick like cattle while waiting for their guardians?

Where does God permit such treatment of women, couldn't find it in my Quran..

[Simple_Person]

I would be as bold to say that back in his day in the context of how women were treated, Mohamed was a feminist..Way ahead of his time..

What happened? Guardians and forced full face veils and insane dress codes? Anyone seen the clip of school girls being herded with a stick like cattle while waiting for their guardians?

Where does God permit such treatment of women, couldn't find it in my Quran..

I assume you are referring to this clip?(looked it up on youtube)



Bruh, the biggest issue right now is that parents are Muslims and tell their kids you are also Muslims and must follow those rulings. I am not saying this to defend them, because i myself was one of those. Born as a Muslim, turned in to an atheist and by own research again became Muslim by CHOICE. Islam is not afraid of questions. Muslims have become sheep. They don't know anything, they don't want to know anything or want to understand anything. Go in one of their homes you see them as zombies watching tv the whole day. NO INTELLECTUAL talks among them, and because there is nothing intellectual to say, many start gossiping, or with men talking about politics (shallow analysis with that also) and money.

Back as an atheist, i asked my mother why is half of the moon light and the other half dark? She answered God knows. Even now about 11 years later i once asked my own mother why doesn't she learn Arabic and read Arabic so that she can read the Qur'an herself as my own sisters is teacher of the Arabic language and lives with her as she is still unmarried. She dismissed me to be quite. My other family members just the same, they repeat things the imaam has said and when i ask them where in the Qur'an or hadith it is written, they say i am not a scholar... While Islam tells us Muslims to first confirm what you have heard before telling it to another person. During khutbah (Friday preaching) people come outside and it is as if they have put their fingers in their ears the WHOLE time. They hear the khatib (the person preaching), but they are not listening to what he is saying.

Many of those school girls don't know Islam, but more importantly don't understand even little bit of Islam and the parents are to be blamed if you ask me as majority are sheep that follow culture. As a Muslim myself when i came to the west before before becoming an atheist back then, some people said "as-salamu alaykum"(peace be upon you), i did NOT KNOW what that meant or what i have to reply to them. Even at the age of 26 as an atheist back then i did still not know what it meant.

As i live by myself i have thrown my own culture out of my house. I try to follow only Islamic principles. Be kind to your neighbors, smile, greet, have a talk, share food. Start the greeting, don't be envious, don't gossip and if somebody gossips defend the one who is being talked behind his back even though he might be Muslim or person of other faith. As he/she is still my brother/sister through Adam(as). Don't judge, be kind to all people of all faiths, help people if they need any help or even not asking any help but you see they could use some help. Be grateful for what you have, don't complain, be grateful for every weather situation you get as there is blessing in every one of them, don't buy things that you don't need, don't throw away food, don't waste water, be kind to animals, share food with animals if the animal is looking at you eating something, give the animals (cat) at least a rub over it's head, don't contaminate nature..etc. etc. etc.

So for you at least that I AM saying this as a Muslim myself should be a thing to be confused about what is going on. My local mosque every time a knowledgeable imaam comes there to stay there but is more knowledgeable about Islam than those uncles that pray there, some try to get him out of there. As some feel threatened that they are no more the most knowledgeable people in the mosque.

In the 3 years that i am going to that mosque i have now witnessed that the current imaam being the 7th imaam.

[beleiver]

Simple_person, yes that was the vid..

The problems you describe are not limited to Muslims, i dont like the word sheep or sheeple (but i do use it a lot;D) as it implies a kind of superiority, but the truth is most people are brain washed by corporate/state media and that includes much of the so called 'alternative' media these days, but at the end of the day truth is superior to ignorance no matter unpleasant that truth might be..

Its funny, as one of the things that made me question the ongoing hate towards Islam and realize the lies, is on my travels years ago before 911 was the number of young western women i knew and met that lived in Muslim countries with Muslim partners, the ones i knew would of most certainly thought of them selves as feminists..

There are many other subjects that give me faith in Islam other than that and the principles you mention, the issue of Debt, usury, monopolies, hoarding, gambling, evictions and squatters rights, feeding the poor and helpless..None of which seems to be talked about much by Muslims and are possibly ignored due to conflict of interests? or perhaps just plain ignorance? These issues are probably more pressing and relevant today as the day the Quran was written, if one is serious about making a stand against evil..The same issues that lead to the manipulation of our media and the exploitation of Gods creation by corporate greed and the endless wars.

I think another problem Islam has no one seems to want to talk about is Whabbism and the notion of Sovereigns other than God..Reeks of the hypocrisy of faith Jesus talked about..But these nation states and 'kingdoms' that promote such ideology are strongly aligned with the synagogue of Satan / Zionism, could they be destroying Islam from within by design?

Or is this too touchy a subject?

[Simple_Person]

Simple_person, yes that was the vid..

The problems you describe are not limited to Muslims, i dont like the word sheep or sheeple (but i do use it a lot;D) as it implies a kind of superiority, but the truth is most people are brain washed by corporate/state media and that includes much of the so called 'alternative' media these days, but at the end of the day truth is superior to ignorance no matter unpleasant that truth might be..

Its funny, as one of the things that made me question the ongoing hate towards Islam and realize the lies, is on my travels years ago before 911 was the number of young western women i knew and met that lived in Muslim countries with Muslim partners, the ones i knew would of most certainly thought of them selves as feminists..

There are many other subjects that give me faith in Islam other than that and the principles you mention, the issue of Debt, usury, monopolies, hoarding, gambling, evictions and squatters rights, feeding the poor and helpless..None of which seems to be talked about much by Muslims and are possibly ignored due to conflict of interests? or perhaps just plain ignorance? These issues are probably more pressing and relevant today as the day the Quran was written, if one is serious about making a stand against evil..The same issues that lead to the manipulation of our media and the exploitation of Gods creation by corporate greed and the endless wars.

I think another problem Islam has no one seems to want to talk about is Whabbism and the notion of Sovereigns other than God..Reeks of the hypocrisy of faith Jesus talked about..But these nation states and 'kingdoms' that promote such ideology are strongly aligned with the synagogue of Satan / Zionism, could they be destroying Islam from within by design?

Or is this too touchy a subject?

In Islam there is absolutely NO "too touchy" or even a "touchy" subject. I have tried to debunk Islam myself, but i am just a too honest person to not admit when i am wrong. Every time i have tried to attack Islam in the past by philosophically attacking it as i love thinking in philosophical depth, it showed me my place and put me to shame how shallow my thinking was.

There is a hadith that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), has said that about Islam that it will branch in 73 sects, 72 will enter hell fire and 1 will enter paradise. Islam is so flexible, compassionate and honest in dealing with all kind of problems. The whole Wahhabism does NOT exist. This is made to appear so. STOP, don't get confused, let me explain what i mean.

Wahhabism is only meant for the people not for the Saudi house itself as if one could say to further get people away from islam. To give you an example.

Google "Ameera al-Taweel", this "Saudi princess" shows everything that western society one could say stands for. The Saudi kingdom only is pursuing worldly gain. Right now Salman ibn Saud (current king of Saudi Arabia) and another brother of him i believe but from another mother is alive. Those are the LAST 2 sons of the first ruler of Saudi Arabia. There are many talks about that within the Saudi house there are fights. Till now one brother took over from the other, so from now on if those all die, who will take over? Many Muslims are waiting for the chaos to start and explode/implode or what you want to call. The Saudi's if real Islamic law was implemented in Saudi Arabia, the first that would be trialed would be the rulers. As they have been allied with many countries that have been killing Muslims over and over. Like you also mentioned with Satanism and Zionism.

So this Wahhabism, is not what majority of Muslims are practicing. The Saudi's came up with it, but they themselves are not even living by this code. Muslims have too much to deal themselves with in their own place instead of looking elsewhere what is going on in this case whole wahhabism. The coming 10-15 years will i believe rock Muslim world on all fronts.

Islam cannot be destroyed from within, they(Free masons) are trying and Zionists are trying also. However look how that is going :). Instead many people are becoming Muslims. The world is being divided in two categories. People who are slowly becoming Muslims and people who know Islam is the truth, but reject it.

My theory is as follows. This whole division will go on the coming years. Media and internet are spreading Islam far and wide. Negative or positive, at least Islam and Muslims. We humans are by nature very curious and investigate things. However investigating something might be hard, but also that is taken care of. Just from our lazy chair at home :)(internet). At the end EVERY person will have had the message of Islam. It only takes 1 lie for somebody who has believed a liar to distrust him and search for what really is the truth. So those Islam haters they are spreading 1000 lies, but only 1 lie to be known is necessary to turn somebody 180 degrees. We believe in Islam that a person will come that will unite Muslims. This person is the Mahdi. However my theory is also that he will untangle many things Christians, Jews, atheist, agnostics etc. are having, not by miracles or so.. just normal speech and in that direction. Humans in reality are just divided in two categories, honest and dishonest people. When this has happened and the ones that still through logic, rationality and reason still have not joined this person, than after that Dajjal (anti-Christ) will be let lose.

The time that Dajjal(anti-Christ) will arrive, it is NO LONGER the issue of seeing with the eyes what is truth, but believing what you have believed with your heart. Anti-Christ will show miracles and things Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheist, Agnostics you name it that are DISHONEST, will follow him (anti-Christ). In the end dajjal will declare he is God and people will off course believe him. In Islam this being shirk and this is the only sin that Allah does not forgive. In other words, when Day of Judgement starts those people will have NOTHING to stand on, as EVERY SIGN was given to them yet they did not believe. BTW, Jesus(as) and his second coming, killing the anti-Christ.

So right now the more i observe the more i see two camps are being created. Hypocrites among Muslims are getting separated from Muslims as they finally have their so called "reason" to leave Islam, with the coming of ISIS and such. Among Christians you also see those hypocrites that leave Christianity under the pretext ..religion is evil pointing at ISIS. There are some Christians, that reject Jesus being son of God, but they still believe in a God as they are still honest.

The so called "democracy" is even shown that is is nothing but modern dictatorship as the illusion of freedom is portrayed(brexit, trump, referendums etc.). Western societies are killing themselves from within. More is done to not have children, but go all out on doing wrong things. Feminism has caused MGTOW (Men going Their Own Way also since 2013 or so) to rise and thus more men distancing themselves from marriage or relationships in general. Who need war with the west, if they are killing themselves right? Back in 2013 when i embraced Islam by choice and now almost 4 years later, it almost looked like as if i have been living under a rock. The last 4 years have SUDDENLY gone SO FAST. Just when i distanced myself from social media, tv and many things in society, ISIS a year later showed up, Tinder kind of insane stuff showed up, the amount of suicide are still keep on rising, transgenderism in the last 3-4 years have come out of NOWHERE, homosexuality suddenly was being accepted and implemented within these few years worldwide. The people that i knew around me that lived their lives suddenly have become more practicing like myself, NATO-Russia problems rising more, Saudi-Yemen-Iran rising, many people worldwide started protesting more. The amount of Islam haters rising.

Again..all these things within just a few years. Whole mess with Syria..i am shocked by how fast things have been going. The train left in 2001(false flag attack) slowly gaining speed, Arab spring(i believe also financed by free masonry or some sort), all these things have been going very fast. I have the feeling that 2020 the train will get almost up to full speed and things will change so fast for the worse, that if you haven't read the news within a few months such drastic changes will occur that one could say where did that come from?

So as you yourself, as it looks like you are not Muslim, i would say go study Islam do what you need to do, ask what you need to ask. Islam has no hidden agenda to fool anybody. The train has left, but you can still so to say catch it while running after it. Not trying to scare you or convert you as i am not gaining anything if you embrace Islam or not, but i am shocked by how fast things suddenly are going.

[Karl]

Feminism was big with the Soviets and they followed Marxism. Islam follows Allah through the Holy Quran NOT Karl Marx. So Muslims that call themselves "feminists" are apostates or heretics. In the West the people that believe in feminism are usually Godless lefty liberal Marxists while the people that don't are usually conservative Christians and pagans.

[Futuwwa]

Feminism was big with the Soviets and they followed Marxism.

Actually is Marxism-Leninism, which differs significantly from (orthodox) Marxism.

[Scimitar]

Feminism was big with the Soviets and they followed Marxism. Islam follows Allah through the Holy Quran NOT Karl Marx. So Muslims that call themselves "feminists" are apostates or heretics.

No.

An apostate leaves the deen. I've never seen any explanation from Islam that being a feminist abrogates your Islam. Heretic? Yes, but only if one is a butch lesbian feminist :D

Scimi

[beleiver]

In Islam there is absolutely NO "too touchy" or even a "touchy" subject. I have tried to debunk Islam myself, but i am just a too honest person to not admit when i am wrong. Every time i have tried to attack Islam in the past by philosophically attacking it as i love thinking in philosophical depth, it showed me my place and put me to shame how shallow my thinking was.

First off thanks for your reply, it was what i need to hear where i am right now on my journey..I started out life hating religion, my breakthrough came when i learned i would never find the truth when i had hate in my heart, and as a truth seeker that was long time reading books about the other side of history, banking, political manipulations, spirituality etc it was a major step forward that led me to God and Islam. Removing hate from my mind, self reflection and seeking forgiveness from that great spirit in the sky was probably THE most positive thing that happened in my life..This was before i was online. Since i have spent many years on so called truther/spiritual forums where the subject of Islam was a hot topic..In all those years of debate and investigation my conclusion is as you say, the basic core teachings of Islam cant be debunked neither can the message of Jesus, as it is the Truth.
Whats more is these forums were once frequented by a lot of Muslims, not only were they mostly awake genuine truth seekers i admired their respectful style of debate, very seldom did they resort to insults and name calling no matter the lies, insults and abuse hurled at them, they were simply not hateful people..
I learned a lot from those forums, possibly the most significant being that with out that divine guidance from God you wont get while hate dwells in ones heart people are hopelessly led astray from the Truth. Those forums are now virtually dead having being over run by want of a better word fascists, Nationalists and Nazis and haters..There is an obvious far right wing corporate agenda being pushed, not only by corporate media but so called alternative media, the nonbelievers that seek the truth are mostly falling for it hook line and sinker.

There is a hadith that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), has said that about Islam that it will branch in 73 sects, 72 will enter hell fire and 1 will enter paradise. Islam is so flexible, compassionate and honest in dealing with all kind of problems. The whole Wahhabism does NOT exist. This is made to appear so. STOP, don't get confused, let me explain what i mean.

Wahhabism is only meant for the people not for the Saudi house itself as if one could say to further get people away from islam. To give you an example.

Google "Ameera al-Taweel", this "Saudi princess" shows everything that western society one could say stands for. The Saudi kingdom only is pursuing worldly gain. Right now Salman ibn Saud (current king of Saudi Arabia) and another brother of him i believe but from another mother is alive. Those are the LAST 2 sons of the first ruler of Saudi Arabia. There are many talks about that within the Saudi house there are fights. Till now one brother took over from the other, so from now on if those all die, who will take over? Many Muslims are waiting for the chaos to start and explode/implode or what you want to call. The Saudi's if real Islamic law was implemented in Saudi Arabia, the first that would be trialed would be the rulers. As they have been allied with many countries that have been killing Muslims over and over. Like you also mentioned with Satanism and Zionism.

So this Wahhabism, is not what majority of Muslims are practicing. The Saudi's came up with it, but they themselves are not even living by this code. Muslims have too much to deal themselves with in their own place instead of looking elsewhere what is going on in this case whole wahhabism. The coming 10-15 years will i believe rock Muslim world on all fronts.

Islam cannot be destroyed from within, they(Free masons) are trying and Zionists are trying also. However look how that is going :). Instead many people are becoming Muslims. The world is being divided in two categories. People who are slowly becoming Muslims and people who know Islam is the truth, but reject it

To me Masons are like the foot soldiers of a darker more sinister groups, like for example Jesuits, Hitler was Jesuit, Trump is the first major world leader since..Back in the 1930s when fascism was on the rise its no surprise the most fascist form of Islam was being enthroned in the home of Islam,at the same time Brits were also secretly bank rolling Mussolini..I theorize it was the people of Europe of the day that rejected fascism not the British and other elites, Mosley never got the popular support they wanted, they were forced to give us a softer version in the guise of party political democracy but it was/is in effect corporate government..
Islams message is too clear and strong imho for its followers to fully fall to this ideology..How can it when God is the sovereign, the lord, the protector that has no partners and intermediaries beside him?

My theory is as follows. This whole division will go on the coming years. Media and internet are spreading Islam far and wide. Negative or positive, at least Islam and Muslims. We humans are by nature very curious and investigate things. However investigating something might be hard, but also that is taken care of. Just from our lazy chair at home :)(internet). At the end EVERY person will have had the message of Islam. It only takes 1 lie for somebody who has believed a liar to distrust him and search for what really is the truth. So those Islam haters they are spreading 1000 lies, but only 1 lie to be known is necessary to turn somebody 180 degrees. We believe in Islam that a person will come that will unite Muslims. This person is the Mahdi. However my theory is also that he will untangle many things Christians, Jews, atheist, agnostics etc. are having, not by miracles or so.. just normal speech and in that direction. Humans in reality are just divided in two categories, honest and dishonest people. When this has happened and the ones that still through logic, rationality and reason still have not joined this person, than after that Dajjal (anti-Christ) will be let lose.

The time that Dajjal(anti-Christ) will arrive, it is NO LONGER the issue of seeing with the eyes what is truth, but believing what you have believed with your heart. Anti-Christ will show miracles and things Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheist, Agnostics you name it that are DISHONEST, will follow him (anti-Christ). In the end dajjal will declare he is God and people will off course believe him. In Islam this being shirk and this is the only sin that Allah does not forgive. In other words, when Day of Judgement starts those people will have NOTHING to stand on, as EVERY SIGN was given to them yet they did not believe. BTW, Jesus(as) and his second coming, killing the anti-Christ.

Interesting theory, sounds about right, I suppose i am here seeking truth as a believer in part for the reasons you suggest ..The end times are nigh upon us, i am sure..The bold bit imho is our only protection..Remind me of a tweet i just liked, something along the lines of, if Islam is in your head but hate is in your heart , your missing the point completely..I think even Muslims will be mislead in these deceptive times unless that point is realized..Revelations implies only the faithful and True will survive, I personally dont see anyone that hates and cant forgive, able to be faithful and true.

So right now the more i observe the more i see two camps are being created. Hypocrites among Muslims are getting separated from Muslims as they finally have their so called "reason" to leave Islam, with the coming of ISIS and such. Among Christians you also see those hypocrites that leave Christianity under the pretext ..religion is evil pointing at ISIS. There are some Christians, that reject Jesus being son of God, but they still believe in a God as they are still honest.

The so called "democracy" is even shown that is is nothing but modern dictatorship as the illusion of freedom is portrayed(brexit, trump, referendums etc.). Western societies are killing themselves from within. More is done to not have children, but go all out on doing wrong things. Feminism has caused MGTOW (Men going Their Own Way also since 2013 or so) to rise and thus more men distancing themselves from marriage or relationships in general. Who need war with the west, if they are killing themselves right? Back in 2013 when i embraced Islam by choice and now almost 4 years later, it almost looked like as if i have been living under a rock. The last 4 years have SUDDENLY gone SO FAST. Just when i distanced myself from social media, tv and many things in society, ISIS a year later showed up, Tinder kind of insane stuff showed up, the amount of suicide are still keep on rising, transgenderism in the last 3-4 years have come out of NOWHERE, homosexuality suddenly was being accepted and implemented within these few years worldwide. The people that i knew around me that lived their lives suddenly have become more practicing like myself, NATO-Russia problems rising more, Saudi-Yemen-Iran rising, many people worldwide started protesting more. The amount of Islam haters rising.

They are intent on destroying the family unit i am sure, with out that strong bond they have us more dependent on the corporate state that will help them get the masses to accept fascism..Feminism at its core is sound enough, so are aspects of socialism even communism and democracy, Satan and Jin with that sneaking whisper will attempt to pervert and covert anything and everything good, like it has with Islam using Whabbism ..
Feminism for example was used to get women working so the state had double the income tax and mothers weaker bonds with their children, as revealed in the film 'freedom to fascism, where it was admitted to the director by David Rockefeller..

Again..all these things within just a few years. Whole mess with Syria..i am shocked by how fast things have been going. The train left in 2001(false flag attack) slowly gaining speed, Arab spring(i believe also financed by free masonry or some sort), all these things have been going very fast. I have the feeling that 2020 the train will get almost up to full speed and things will change so fast for the worse, that if you haven't read the news within a few months such drastic changes will occur that one could say where did that come from?

So as you yourself, as it looks like you are not Muslim, i would say go study Islam do what you need to do, ask what you need to ask. Islam has no hidden agenda to fool anybody. The train has left, but you can still so to say catch it while running after it. Not trying to scare you or convert you as i am not gaining anything if you embrace Islam or not, but i am shocked by how fast things suddenly are going.

No I dont identify as a Muslim just yet..I am a tad slow and preoccupied by life in general to spend the time i would like researching, I am starting to pray more and now using Islams prayer methods and phrases, but in English for now.
Inshalla i will find time to learn the Arabic and get in a routine..

There are more points i would like to discuss, but my kids just back from school, and we gone a bit off topic, another thread another day..

May gods blessing be upon you for your time in replying , it was of help..

[Simple_Person]

First off thanks for your reply, it was what i need to hear where i am right now on my journey..I started out life hating religion, my breakthrough came when i learned i would never find the truth when i had hate in my heart, and as a truth seeker that was long time reading books about the other side of history, banking, political manipulations, spirituality etc it was a major step forward that led me to God and Islam. Removing hate from my mind, self reflection and seeking forgiveness from that great spirit in the sky was probably THE most positive thing that happened in my life..This was before i was online. Since i have spent many years on so called truther/spiritual forums where the subject of Islam was a hot topic..In all those years of debate and investigation my conclusion is as you say, the basic core teachings of Islam cant be debunked neither can the message of Jesus, as it is the Truth.
Whats more is these forums were once frequented by a lot of Muslims, not only were they mostly awake genuine truth seekers i admired their respectful style of debate, very seldom did they resort to insults and name calling no matter the lies, insults and abuse hurled at them, they were simply not hateful people..
I learned a lot from those forums, possibly the most significant being that with out that divine guidance from God you wont get while hate dwells in ones heart people are hopelessly led astray from the Truth. Those forums are now virtually dead having being over run by want of a better word fascists, Nationalists and Nazis and haters..There is an obvious far right wing corporate agenda being pushed, not only by corporate media but so called alternative media, the nonbelievers that seek the truth are mostly falling for it hook line and sinker.

This i also have experienced myself. Although hatred not towards religion, but towards a certain individual. In just a half year, my life went 180 degrees. Back then my whole "believe" or rather "want i wanted to be the truth"-believe was all surrounding about aliens and such. However later on Islam even answered this question for me :). As iblies will try whatever in his power to led human beings astray. Jinn are even capable to changing shape. When i embraced Islam, i still had some questions about the whole skull findings about so called "prehistoric human beings", however Allah knew what was in my heart and also within months the answer to that was also given to me. Many atheists don't reveal everything, they only discuss what they want to discuss and subjects that they cannot explain with certainty they keep their mouth shut about. I am absolutely disgusted with this dishonest behavior.

You are also 100% right about when hate OR dishonesty resides in your heart in this case towards Islam, you will not see it. This to this day puzzles me greatly how such a thing is possible. I have tried by all means to explain Islam to some people, but you see those people either they are dishonest and don't want to admit OR they are honest but not really interested. In both cases they just can't see it. It is like i am having a stone in my hand and i tell that person look at this stone in my hand and they can't see it. I am amazed by this. I am also very grateful to know about this fact, because discussion with people i can more easily be wrapped up. If a person is not able to follow you are because of 3 things so far i have concluded.

- That person knows Islam is the truth, but is dishonest. In this category i also believe people who have hatred and other negative emotions towards religion in general. As they are open to discuss it, but for the sake of bashing it.
- That person is honest, but not really interested in seeking for the truth. This category is not even interested in talking about religion all together.
- I just suck in explaining it. Some people with just slightly different kind of wording or way better in explaining can reach them, although i am not able. I have also acknowledged that i also may be the cause of it. So in those cases i let it rest and leave it up to Allah to put somebody else on their path that is better than me in explaining it.

To me Masons are like the foot soldiers of a darker more sinister groups, like for example Jesuits, Hitler was Jesuit, Trump is the first major world leader since..Back in the 1930s when fascism was on the rise its no surprise the most fascist form of Islam was being enthroned in the home of Islam,at the same time Brits were also secretly bank rolling Mussolini..I theorize it was the people of Europe of the day that rejected fascism not the British and other elites, Mosley never got the popular support they wanted, they were forced to give us a softer version in the guise of party political democracy but it was/is in effect corporate government..
Islams message is too clear and strong imho for its followers to fully fall to this ideology..How can it when God is the sovereign, the lord, the protector that has no partners and intermediaries beside him?

There are so many groups, i am not sure who is who. Although i have the feeling that those groups somehow obey 1 group. Thank you about mentioning Jesuit, i have never heard about them. Indeed the biggest issue with Islam is, Islam is very clear about major things and only differs with minor things. For example, usury is usury. Islam is as clear as daylight about those kind of things. Also injustice all those things it is very clear. Even women covering up and law. This is a needle in the eye for those groups. They have tried their utmost best to create a "moderate" version of Islam, although Islam already is moderate, Muslim tend to go extreme, not Islam. However many moderate Muslims are even being divided in the present day. They either because of groups like ISIS start to learn and investigate their own religion and thus become more practicing OR they leave the religion all together. In either way Islam wins. Better have quality Muslims than quantity Muslims right :).

Interesting theory, sounds about right, I suppose i am here seeking truth as a believer in part for the reasons you suggest ..The end times are nigh upon us, i am sure..The bold bit imho is our only protection..Remind me of a tweet i just liked, something along the lines of, if Islam is in your head but hate is in your heart , your missing the point completely..I think even Muslims will be mislead in these deceptive times unless that point is realized..Revelations implies only the faithful and True will survive, I personally dont see anyone that hates and cant forgive, able to be faithful and true.

Well right now i mean we can have a RESPECTABLE logical, rational, reasonable discussion based on evidence. This is all about the mind. Islam is not afraid of question. However when dajjal (anti-Christ) arrives) it is all about having strong believe in your heart. Also i think i have not made it clear that MANY people will follow him, Christians, Jews, Atheists, agnostics ALSO MUSLIMS!! Nobody is safe for him. In Islam we know that when he comes he will ask you i believe to drink from either one of the rivers he has with him. One looks like a river of lava and one looks like a river of cold nice water. It not only looks like it, but also feels like it. However it is not what it seems like. The Muslim must close his eyes and drink from the river of lava as that is the true cold and nice water. While the other is lava. He will also bring a hell with him and a paradise with him. His hell is paradise and his paradise is hell. So also if you must jump, jump in the one that looks like hell. So there is no more what you see that you follow, but strongly follow your believe. The people that have not follow with honesty or with conviction a certain believe, they will fall for his trap. In Islam there is something called imaan (faith) this resides in the heart. The stronger your faith is, the easily you submit. So also in this case when he brings a river of hell, your full submission to God and have full trust in Him you drink from the river that LOOKS AND FEELS like lava until you drink from it.

They are intent on destroying the family unit i am sure, with out that strong bond they have us more dependent on the corporate state that will help them get the masses to accept fascism..Feminism at its core is sound enough, so are aspects of socialism even communism and democracy, Satan and Jin with that sneaking whisper will attempt to pervert and covert anything and everything good, like it has with Islam using Whabbism ..
Feminism for example was used to get women working so the state had double the income tax and mothers weaker bonds with their children, as revealed in the film 'freedom to fascism, where it was admitted to the director by David Rockefeller..

Indeed they are trying to tip off things that are straight going, like a family unit. Also with Islam introducing different kind of "Islam"-versions. This all is to confuse people, that they just stop looking in to Islam because of so much confusion. However for the truth seeker, guidance for sure comes and there is no confusion in Islam. Even though so many sects, truth is very clear among all of the different views.

No I dont identify as a Muslim just yet..I am a tad slow and preoccupied by life in general to spend the time i would like researching, I am starting to pray more and now using Islams prayer methods and phrases, but in English for now.
Inshalla i will find time to learn the Arabic and get in a routine..

There are more points i would like to discuss, but my kids just back from school, and we gone a bit off topic, another thread another day..

May gods blessing be upon you for your time in replying , it was of help..

Whatever question you have about Islam, ask the Creator for guidance and answers of your questions. My advice for you on that, keep your eyes open. Some times the answer comes just as you are sitting in your car and pondering about things. Keep your eyes open, keep your heart open, all those answers will come from places you don't expect.

If you have any free time, spend it searching it and investigating things. However, have a balanced approach, your family also have rights over you, so do not neglect your children/wife as some might do. But remember again, that your Lord has also rights over you. So balanced approach.

You know where to find us and with all honesty although i am even a new member, i have become very fond of this forum. Very friendly and respectable people here.

Peace and take care.

[Abdullah910]

Islam teaches that a woman should stay at home and obey her husband - Feminism teaches that a woman is free to do / to go whatever/wherever she wants.
Islam teaches that a man can have 4 wifes and a woman can have only 1 - Feminism teaches that it is wrong to have 4 wifes because according to them men and women are equal

So NO, Islam will never be feminist.

[Scimitar]

I would be as bold to say that back in his day in the context of how women were treated, Mohamed was a feminist.

What nonsense.

Stop with these idiotic labels such as feminist, go read my posts on page one of this thread to see why these labels are dumbing you down and everyone else who ascribes to such idiotic labelling.

Islam is ISLAM.

We have MUTUAL EQUITY WHICH REFLECTS A COMPLIMENTARY EQUALITY BETWEEN THE SEXES IN ISLAM. NOT FEMINISM.

SHEESH KEBABS

Islam is all about equity, mutual complimentary rights.

THIS IS ISLAM ^

Not polarised rights as in what the west propagates.

THIS IS KUFR ^ FEMINISM.


Scimi

EDIT: to drive the point home - this is what happens when an Abrahamic faith group adheres to secular poli-tricking to make you ascribe to feminist ideals:



Disgusted yet?

Israeli women get away with false rape charges against men - those men then have to suffer the indignity of the accusation and thus, become unemployable, and shunned in Israeli society - that's feminism in Israel.

To add insult to injury, the women who file false charges - are not subject to being arrested for attempting to tarnish the good name of an innocent man - WOW - not even if the woman has FALSIFIED EVIDENCE - UBER WOW. Watch the WHOLE VIDEO if you can stomach it.

Don't call our prophet Muhammad pbuh a feminist. Please. I hate the word, for very good reasons, and you can now see why.

Scimi

[Futuwwa]

I would be as bold to say that back in his day in the context of how women were treated, Mohamed was a feminist..Way ahead of his time..

The Prophet Muhammed stood up for all groups who were oppressed during the jahiliyah, he brought justice and brought the oppressors to heel. He stood up for and improved the situation of women, slaves, and the poor. Yet, he did not abolish patriarchy, slavery or capitalism. On the contrary, he was himself a patriarch, a slaveowner and a capitalist. One could just as well use his example to make an endorsement of conservatism.

[beleiver]

The Prophet Muhammed stood up for all groups who were oppressed during the jahiliyah, he brought justice and brought the oppressors to heel. He stood up for and improved the situation of women, slaves, and the poor. Yet, he did not abolish patriarchy, slavery or capitalism. On the contrary, he was himself a patriarch, a slaveowner and a capitalist. One could just as well use his example to make an endorsement of conservatism.

True enough, but also it could be said he endorsed socialism, communism and anarchy..All has its merits and flaws, could it be he revealed the natural balance between all ideologies necessary to live in peace and harmony?

[beleiver]

What nonsense.

Stop with these idiotic labels such as feminist, go read my posts on page one of this thread to see why these labels are dumbing you down and everyone else who ascribes to such idiotic labelling.

Islam is ISLAM.

I used the idiotic label 'Feminism' as i was replying to a thread about that same label..
And yes I agree with your first post in the sense its good on principle but has been used, abused and distorted over time..Just like most movements throughout the ages have..

Whether feminism means equality for women or equity wouldn't it be fair to say Islam was ahead of its time, as either way women enjoyed a certain amount of protection and respect that was not realized in much of the world till centuries later?

[Scimitar]

Sorry bro :embarrass

[Serinity]

:salam:

Well, I hate feminazi's. Islam complements both genders, it is an erroneous assumption to say the Islamic way is "oppressive" mere assumptions, baseless conjecture.

Islam orders women to cover up everything (fardh being everything but the face and the hands, afaik) this is to honor, not to disgrace, to liberate, not to oppress.

Men are commanded to provide for their wives, and the wife is not obligated (AFAIK) to do housework. They can work too afaik, am I right? As long as they observe Islamic dresscode, etc.

Correct me if I said anything wrong.

Allahu alam.

[sumera78630]

:salamext:

Islam is not allow us to compare our self with non-Muslims because Islam is a complete religion!
It is not a Feminist religion Islam has various laws for Muslim women that make them very comfortable and save in their home.

Umrah Packages

[islamocurious]

:salam:

Anyone who says or thinks that Islam, itself, can "change" in any way shape or form, has committed kufr, and is a kafir. AFAIK

The West claims that Islam is oppressive on women - I fail to see that. Because when I look at Islamic Law, all I see is justice done to women.

They are not objectified, and in-doctrinated to think that showing your body is being "free". - Like the West has done.

Allahu alam.

Ex-Muslim women and men, some Muslim women and men, and the Quran 'claim' Islam is oppressive to women and girls. For eg. Muslim women in western countries are free to wear whatever they like: the hijab, niqab, burqua or not; Muslim women in Islamic theocracies do not have this freedom. To say that western women are indoctrinated to think that showing your body is being free is nonsensical. Do you understand the definition of personal freedom?

[sister herb]

Ex-Muslim women and men, some Muslim women and men, and the Quran 'claim' Islam is oppressive to women and girls. For eg. Muslim women in western countries are free to wear whatever they like: the hijab, niqab, burqua or not; Muslim women in Islamic theocracies do not have this freedom. To say that western women are indoctrinated to think that showing your body is being free is nonsensical. Do you understand the definition of personal freedom?

Haven´t you ever heard about niqab/hijab bans in the free West?

[islamocurious]

Of course. But let's put this in perspective, you are free to wear whatever you like in the majority, most populous western countries. Can the same be said by western women travelling to Muslim majority countries?

[sister herb]

Yeah - welcome to the free Europe, unless you are a Muslim woman:

Germany
On 6 December 2016, Chancellor Angela Merkel said the wearing of-faced veils should be prohibited in Germany "wherever it is legally possible".
Her comments, made at a CDU party meeting, came after plans to outlaw the burka - or any full-face veil - in public buildings were proposed by Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere in August.
There has been no national law restricting the wearing of veils in Germany prior to these proposals.
In September 2003 the federal Constitutional Court ruled in favour of a teacher who wanted to wear an Islamic scarf to school. (You have to go to the court to get right to decide how to wear?)
At least half of Germany's 16 states went on to ban teachers from wearing headscarves and in the state of Hesse the ban included civil servants.

Austria
The ruling coalition agreed in January 2017 to prohibit full-face veils (niqab and burka) in public spaces such as courts and schools. It said it was considering a more general ban on state employees wearing the headscarf and other religious symbols.
The measures were seen as an attempt to counter the rise of the far-right Freedom Party, which almost won the presidency in December 2016.
The coalition, made up of the left-wing Social Democrats and the conservative Austrian People's Party, said that full-face veils in public stood in the way of "open communication", which it said was fundamental to an "open society".
Only an estimated 150 women wear the full niqab in Austria but tourism officials expressed fears that the measures would also deter visitors from the Gulf as it would apply at ski resorts, as much as the capital, Vienna.
The measures require parliamentary approval before they can come into force.

France
On 11 April 2011, France became the first European country to ban the full-face Islamic veil in public places.
Under the ban, no woman, French or foreign, is able to leave their home with their face hidden behind a veil without running the risk of a fine.
As President, Nicolas Sarkozy, whose administration brought in the ban, said that veils oppress women and were "not welcome" in France.
In 2016 France introduced a controversial ban on women's full-body swimsuits, known as "burkinis". Prime Minister Manuel Valls called the swimsuits "the affirmation of political Islam in the public space".
The burkini ban, imposed by French Riviera mayors, was later lifted in seaside resorts after France's top administrative court overruled the law.

France has about five million Muslims - the largest Muslim minority in Western Europe - but it is thought only about 2,000 women wear full veils.
The penalty for doing so is a 150 euro (£133, $217) fine and instruction in citizenship. Anyone found forcing a woman to cover her face risks a 30,000 euro fine.
Data from 2015 showed that 1,546 fines had been imposed under the law.
The European Court of Human Rights upheld the ban on 2 July 2014 after a case was brought by a 24-year-old French woman who argued that the ban violated her freedom of religion and expression.
Most of the population - including most Muslims - agree with the government when it describes the face-covering veil as an affront to society's values. Critics - chiefly outside France - say it is a violation of individual liberties.
A ban on Muslim headscarves and other "conspicuous" religious symbols at state schools was introduced in 2004, and received overwhelming political and public support in a country where the separation of state and religion is enshrined in law.

Belgium
A law banning the full-face veil came into effect in Belgium in July 2011.
The law bans any clothing that obscures the identity of the wearer in places like parks and on the street.
In December 2012, Belgium's Constitutional Court rejected appeals for the ban to be annulled, ruling that it did not violate human rights.
Before the law was passed, the burka was already banned in several districts under old local laws originally designed to stop people masking their faces completely at carnival time.

The Netherlands
In November 2016, Dutch MPs backed a ban on the Islamic full veil in public places such as schools and hospitals, and on public transport.
The niqab and the burka full-face veils were included in the ban along with face coverings such as ski-masks and helmets.
In order for the ban to become law, the Dutch Senate must approve the bill.
Prime Minister Mark Rutte's ruling Liberal-Labour coalition described the bill, which will see offenders fined up to 410 euros (£350, $435), as "religious-neutral".
The proposed ban reflected the influence of the anti-Islamist Geert Wilders, whose Freedom party was at that time the third largest in parliament and the minority coalition government's chief ally.

Around 5% of the Netherlands' 16 million residents are Muslims, but only around 300 are thought to wear the niqab or the burka. The wearing of headscarves is far more common, however.

Italy
Several towns in Italy have local bans on face-covering veils. The north-western town of Novara is one of several local authorities to have already brought in rules to deter public use of the Islamic veil.
In the Lombardy region of Italy, a burka ban was agreed in December 2015 and came into effect in January 2016.
Governments have discussed extending laws to impose penalties on Muslim face coverings, but these have not yet been enforced nationally.

In 2004 local politicians in northern Italy resurrected old public order laws against the wearing of masks, to stop women from wearing the burka.
Some mayors from the anti-immigrant Northern League have also banned the use of Islamic swimsuits.

Spain
Though there are no plans for a national ban in Spain, in 2010 the city of Barcelona announced a ban on full Islamic face-veils in some public spaces such as municipal offices, public markets and libraries.
At least two smaller towns in Catalonia, the north-eastern region that includes Barcelona, have also imposed bans.

But a ban in the town of Lleida was overturned by Spain's Supreme Court in February 2013. It ruled that it was an infringement of religious liberties.
Barcelona's city council said the ban there targeted any head-wear that impeded identification, including motorbike helmets and balaclavas.

Britain
There is no ban on Islamic dress in the UK, but schools are allowed to decide their own dress code after a 2007 directive which followed several high-profile court cases.

In January 2010, then Schools Secretary Ed Balls said it was "not British" to tell people what to wear in the street after the UK Independence Party called for all face-covering Muslim veils to be banned.
In September 2013, Home Office Minister Jeremy Browne called for a "national debate" about Islamic veils in public places, such as schools.
In 2014 UKIP came first in the European elections in Britain, winning 24 seats in Brussels. Former UKIP leader Nigel Farage has said that full veils are a symbol of an "increasingly divided Britain", that they "oppress" women, and are a potential security threat.
Some 57% of the British public support a burka ban in the UK, a YouGov poll in August 2016 found.

Denmark
In 2008, the government announced it would bar judges from wearing headscarves and similar religious or political symbols - including crucifixes, Jewish skull caps and turbans - in courtrooms.

That move came after pressure from the Danish People's Party (DPP), known for its anti-Muslim rhetoric, which has since called for the ban to be extended to include school teachers and medical personnel.
After a Danish paper published a controversial cartoon in 2005 depicting the Prophet Muhammad as a bearded man with a bomb in his turban, there were a series of protests against Denmark across the Muslim world.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-13038095

[Serinity]

Ex-Muslim women and men, some Muslim women and men, and the Quran 'claim' Islam is oppressive to women and girls. For eg. Muslim women in western countries are free to wear whatever they like: the hijab, niqab, burqua or not; Muslim women in Islamic theocracies do not have this freedom. To say that western women are indoctrinated to think that showing your body is being free is nonsensical. Do you understand the definition of personal freedom?

Personal freedom that promote indeceny, immorality - I do not support that. It is not nonsensical - it is true. Sadly people who lack morals don't see it.

There is no freedom in the West.

Allahu alam.

[Muhammad]

Ex-Muslim women and men, some Muslim women and men, and the Quran 'claim' Islam is oppressive to women and girls.

The Qur'an does not claim 'Islam is oppressive' to anyone. Unfortunately ex-Muslims do not know Islam. You would benefit from reading the Qur'an and studying the teachings of Islam for yourself;

Whoever does righteousness - it is for his [own] soul; and whoever does evil [does so] against it. And your Lord is not ever unjust to [His] servants.[Qur'an 41:46]

The Prophet :saws: said: “The best of you are those who are the best to their wives, and I am the best of you to my wives.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 3895; Ibn Maajah, 1977

The Prophet :saws: said: “I urge you to treat women well.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 331; Muslim, 1468.

He :saws: also said, “You never spend anything but you will be rewarded for it, even the morsel of food that you lift to your wife’s mouth.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6352; Muslim, 1628.

Of course. But let's put this in perspective, you are free to wear whatever you like in the majority, most populous western countries. Can the same be said by western women travelling to Muslim majority countries?

Muslim majority countries vary in their regulations on dress code, just like western countries do. But, there is a reason why many Muslim women still choose to wear the Hijab, despite living in a place that allows you to wear what you want. In fact, many of them have to fight for their right to wear it in so-called free societies, due to the negative stereotypes that are all too prevalent there.

[sister herb]

Of course. But let's put this in perspective, you are free to wear whatever you like in the majority, most populous western countries. Can the same be said by western women travelling to Muslim majority countries?

Free to wear what ever except Islamic clothes. You can follow freely what ever religion except Islam. In the West you are free to wear bikinis, not niqab. You call it as freedom? Why the West gives freedom to you to decide how to wear but not to me?

Stop claiming here kind of rubbish. What kind of freedom it is when politicians and courts discuss about can you wear this and that? It´s not freedom - it´s the oppression of women.

[Serinity]

The claim that Islam is oppressive is baseless.

It is mere assumptions. Have you ever asked a Muslim woman whether it is oppressive? no? Women are commanded to wear Hijab so that they be honored - and not judged by their looks.

And in Islam you are not judged by what gender you are - but by what you do.

Allahu alam.

[sister herb]

The Western feminists behave like we Muslim women wouldn´t have own will, mind and brains. They too oppress other women when decide behalf of them how they think and what they want.

[Simple_Person]

Of course. But let's put this in perspective, you are free to wear whatever you like in the majority, most populous western countries. Can the same be said by western women travelling to Muslim majority countries?

This sister is the TYPICAL behavior of what we call in our culture "Gundi's" (people who live in villages). In other words people who are very small minded, have only seen their own village and suddenly everything that doesn't meet their standard is bad. Their reasoning is why i bring this up is the SAME reasoning you are using.

Saying yeah but we can "wear what we want" instead of looking at the reality itself, then if somebody debunks your reasoning you saying but look at those Muslim majority countries you are being oppressed.

Well i guess a thief in a court house uses same reasoning right? Pointing at somebody else and saying..look he is a thief in other words just because i have robbed do not look at me, look at other people. Every case is judged by it's own. If you lie and i lie, we are BOTH liars and we both are responsible for our OWN actions.

What is happening in Muslim majority countries, please don't spill even 1 word, because as Muslims we are MORE than aware of what is happening there. However here in the west people are the ones with such big mouths shouting freedom this and freedom that, however all we see is oppression this and oppression that. You are "free" as long as you behave like the mass, if you differ suddenly you are "against" freedom. Go take a look at your definition of freedom first, before coming and acting as if you are knowledgeable about this subject. Because in these little comments of yours (no offense) but there is A LOT OF IGNORANCE and dishonesty. So go clean up your act and come back so we can have a well founded discussion.

[Futuwwa]

Of course. But let's put this in perspective, you are free to wear whatever you like in the majority, most populous western countries. Can the same be said by western women travelling to Muslim majority countries?

Why is this question even relevant?

[Karl]

A better term for "feminism" would be "major womenism", as in the West girls and women under the age of 18 are oppressed with negative "rights". Don't believe the "freedom and democracy" propaganda. The West is quite totalitarian in nature.