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Bhabha
08-02-2017, 08:43 PM
Somehow the thread that was meant to be for eastern and western debate was either deleted or moved to the unknown.

I prepared a large post and I'm not going to loose it !

---------
I'm not devaluing women who choose to stay at home and do housework. I am simply stating that the household duties are not just confined to the "womenfolk" and are not "feminine" work at all. To assume that only women and only feminine women do these household duties is also to devalue the work of women who choose to pursue careers outside of the conventional household, who choose to be scholars, be in politics, and do work that is generally seen and painted as "masculine". We have to get out of the assumptions that women belong in specific places, they don't. Women can choose to pursue whatever it is that they wish to pursue as long as it does not in any way violate Islamic teachings.

Obviously neither women or men should pursue fields where their faith and values are in question, I.e industries that deal with haram.

However it seems that someone in this thread assumes that I have assumptions about them, when the general "you" is meant to be a general sentence aimed at everyone who sees the thread.

I for one will not impose on my girls the duty of cleaning after the house without equally imposing this duty and obligation to my boys. That to me is unfair. I don't want the husband of my girls to treat them as though they just belong in the kitchen or cleaning and I don't want the wives of my sons to be under the assumption that they will be doing the housework. It is a shared responsibility and let's face it, there is no "single" person economy anymore for people to say that it is the man who will earn the income and the wife should be grateful she is not working (if she is at home). I say that if the wife stays at home and does the household duties, it is the husband who should be grateful that she is doing MORE work that is unrecognized and is therefore often undervalued.

I never meant to sound like I was undervaluing a woman who chooses to do work inside the house. Just the opposite, I don't think it is fair that this is just seen as a woman's place and her husbands financial income is seen to be superior and required for sustenance.

Such as the following scenario:

Husband comes home and the house is not clean, there is not food on the table, etc.

He says to his wife "Why is the house not clean? You were home all day"

Her response "Why aren't we rich? You work all day"

----

As such the issue to consider is that people undervalue the actual work performed by women, who integrate all of the following individual duties: nanny (taking care of the child), maid (cleaning), cook (cooking). Etc. She has to be so many positions that it is unfair to ask this of a woman without providing help. As far as I know and according to sharia, the wife is not obligated to perform all of these tasks. Her only obligation is not to go outside of the house, not to allow strangers in her husbands house and therefore care for his property and to be intimate with her husband. Her husband has to assist her in cooking, cleaning and taking care of the kids, but she is not obligated.

Despite this I have seen countless of times that many women who devote themselves to doing things out of love for their husbands, taking care of children, cooking, cleaning, being intimate with them are not held with high regard when the husband decided to seek a second, third or even fourth wife. Is there no shame?

Sometimes they seek divorce and after having been faithful wives, dedicated, etc. Those who did not work are left with literally nothing. They have to go back to their families or seek a second marriage because they do not have the skills, experience or sometimes education (because they chose to stay at home to care for their children) and are therefore unable to provide for themselves.
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anatolian
08-02-2017, 09:23 PM
The problem, it was seen the duty of men to work and women to do house works in the old times but today women are working as well. So, if the woman works, the man must do the house work as well. Thats simple. The only problem here is to find a man who is willing to do this :D
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Umm♥Layth
08-02-2017, 09:29 PM
The thread wasn't actually meant to be an eastern and western "debate". It was a question a brother posed seeking advice about marriage and it turned into a discussion about household duties, feminism, and blanketing cultures.

Admin started a thread about this said eastern and western debate, but what's the point? That's not what the discussion was meant to be about.

Furthermore, you are still generalizing here and there is no use in having a discussion when there's blankets everywhere and babies thrown out with their bath waters lol.

A discussion should be an intellectual one, so we can learn. Not full of accusations and assumptions. It doesn't really lead anywhere and I hope you can understand where I'm coming from :) I'll give it one more shot and make a few points, just because its a favorite subject of mine :)

The arguments you pose here are all just regurgitations from other feminists and its the same ongoing dilemmas over and over. Its a sort of resentment women have in general, nothing to do with Islam, it just gets thrown together, especially for converts. I am not in disagreement that boys and girls should all know how to do household duties. It is necessary. The issues are within some cultures, again, not Islam.

You are right, there are no rules in sharia that say women have to do all the housework, but the QURAN does clearly say we must obey our husbands (oh no!) and if you (you in general) marry a man that is going to request this of you, then be prepared to accept it. Otherwise, what responsibility does a woman have in a marriage? To sit there and look pretty? A man is obligated to provide and she gets to just suck her thumb? Talk about unfair! lol.

No, doesn't work that way. Men must provide, women must be obedient and everything in between is cool as long as it is not haraam. We get to choose our spouse and our lifestyles. Those who get forced into marriage should know that isn't from Islam and it is a different topic all together. Most of these women that feminists get upset over are actually OKAY with their culture and follow it without a fuss.

In my home (and again, sharing my household so I hope you are reading this time) my husband always helps with chores. He cleans vomits, wipes butts and changes diapers too :D not as often as I do, because he can't do that when he's at work of course. My son helps me cook and he always has to clean up after himself. I'm nobody's maid here and everyone is clear on that ;) I'm teaching him how to do laundry and sew his own clothes (The prophet knew how to sew you know :3 ) when he is of age to do so.

My husband is the main breadwinner and we live within these means, so yep, a one income household is doable still. My ex husband and his brothers all have a one income household and they live very well :) It goes back to requirements before marriage. I was not interested in going back to the workforce, I wanted to stay home and work on my business. I would not have married my husband had he wanted another lifestyle. It's about choices.

There is no beef if a couple wants a dual household, but it doesn't run the same as a single income household, so comparing these two households is very unfair. Dual income households require that spouses split everything 50/50 or that they hire help. Single income households usually have separate duties, which are agreed upon before marriage. What's the problem? Both parties are fulfilling their duties right?

The only problem I have witnessed with 50/50 households is that the women are more unhappy, why? Another subject. :)

Both men and women can be VERY unfair in a marriage. I have seen plenty of cases where women go see other men while husbands are out working all day. I've seen cases where women just take off one day because they get tired of the lifestyle THEY CHOSE and take all belongings, money, kids and then come the false accusations of abuse. A man loses EVERYTHING in a blink of an eye. Women don't care to hear this part though, they are only interested in the abuse sob stories and I have personal beef with that because I actually endured real physical abuse and cheating.

I have seen men be totally ungrateful and leave their "frumpy" wives who haven't slept because of the baby, for some young, fresh looking girl. It goes BOTH ways.

My problem here, again, is generalizing, making things about Islam when they aren't, Demonizing cultures and all that jazz. This stuff happens everywhere and nobody cares as much for some reason. ^o)

Islam is perfect. People are not. end of.

Also, feel free to call me out by my screen name. :) I don't mind. If you meant "you in general" you should have stated so. You clearly were addressing me as the discussion was between you and me towards the end.

Thank you for engaging in this discussion. Not sure there is much else to say though :statisfie
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MuslimInshallah
08-02-2017, 09:42 PM
Assalaamu alaikum Bhabha,

(smile) Thank you for this initiative.

I understand your feelings. There is certainly injustice done to some women around this question. But I wonder if it might not be more fruitful to frame the question differently. Perhaps it might be useful to wonder why the work that women do when they are not paid is so undervalued in our world today?

If I am a woman raising, cooking for, cleaning for and educating my children (and indeed, I am such a woman)... why is it that I am considered as less valuable a person than a woman (or a man) who gets paid for doing the same tasks (and often not as well as I myself do them)? Was this always true? From what I can tell of reading history, this was not historically true. So why is this the dominant vision today?

And who or what benefits from this vision?

(smile) May God Bless you, my dear.
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anatolian
08-02-2017, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah

And who or what benefits from this vision?
The ones who are using women..
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MuslimInshallah
08-02-2017, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by anatolian
The ones who are using women..
(smile) And who (or what) do you think this might be? And how does it benefit these people (or systems? Or...?)?
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greenhill
08-02-2017, 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
(smile) And who (or what) do you think this might be? And how does it benefit these people (or systems? Or...?)?
I reckon it is part of the plan to destabilise the faith. . . to plant the seeds of discontentment . . . to question the role of women, to assume that covering up is like an oppression, or why men are allowed more than one wife, why women cannot lead prayers etc..

From the looks of things, it is working...


:peace:
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MuslimInshallah
08-02-2017, 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by greenhill
I reckon it is part of the plan to destabilise the faith. . . to plant the seeds of discontentment . . . to question the role of women, to assume that covering up is like an oppression, or why men are allowed more than one wife, why women cannot lead prayers etc..

From the looks of things, it is working...


:peace:
Assalaamu alaikum greenhill,

(smile) Good to see you... it's been a while (my fault for not being very active!).

But is it only Muslims who are being targeted by these beliefs?
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anatolian
08-03-2017, 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
(smile) And who (or what) do you think this might be? And how does it benefit these people (or systems? Or...?)?
Who do you think would use women?..It is because when you disgrace the work people do and make them believe so, you can force them to do more and you can use more of them.
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MuslimInshallah
08-03-2017, 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by anatolian
Who do you think would use women?..It is because when you disgrace the work people do and make them believe so, you can force them to do more and you can use more of them.
(smile) You have not answered the question of "who or what".

Also, is it the work itself that is necessarily being disgraced? If I am a daycare worker, do I not have some value? And am I working harder than a mother with her own children?
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greenhill
08-03-2017, 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
Assalaamu alaikum greenhill,

. . . . . . .

But is it only Muslims who are being targeted by these beliefs?
I am going to stick my neck out and say "Yes!"

Why would I say this? It is because Satan has made a vow to mislead ALL believers until doomsday. He has done it all the previous Books and the Quran is no different (only that Allah has preserved it verbatim), so with our Book preserved, Satan has to find other ways to create doubts and he has to work very hard indeed.


:peace:
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Bhabha
08-03-2017, 11:29 AM
Muslims are not being targeted by these beliefs. This is a general conflict in terms of things that are "feminine" and fit for women to work, etc.

Women wear pink
Women cook
Women clean
Women do this
Women do that

Why imposition on women?

Women are burdened, whether we like to admit it not. Makes no difference at all. The majority of times, if women choose to work they are also burdened with taking care of the household and if they don't choose to work they are also burdened with taking care of the household and have to ask for money for them to do anything, they are at the mercy of whether or not their husband is someone who will be generous to them or someone who will be stingy. This is seen in ANY religion and is not specific to any religion. I've had friends in all religions who have been either at the mercy of their husband to do anything outside or have had their own income for them to meet with friends, buy whatever they want without having to ask for money. In retrospect women who are taking care of a household should not have to ask for money at all, it should be freely given to them, available whenever they wish to use it and not a "reward" for taking care of a household, that's not right.

So if a woman has her own job, her own income, she is not at the mercy of her husband who could at any time divorce her.
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Bhabha
08-03-2017, 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by anatolian
The problem, it was seen the duty of men to work and women to do house works in the old times but today women are working as well. So, if the woman works, the man must do the house work as well. Thats simple. The only problem here is to find a man who is willing to do this :D
In one of my classes, we were discussing Muslim women of the Ottoman Empire, before the spread of Europeans into the Ottoman Empire. My professor made note that it is historically incorrect to assume that women have been at the home doing household duties without working. This is a European fallacy BTW. As Europeans were the most oppressive towards their womenfolk and women were neither allowed to have money gained from working or to hold their own property.

Women in the ottoman periods had their own businesses and were very wealthy of their own without their husbands money.

So it is incorrect to stipulate that women's place has been in the household historically, only in some cultures ( in this case I say mostly European cultures ) as women in the time of the Prophet fought alongside him and Khadijah was a very successful business woman.
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Bhabha
08-03-2017, 11:44 AM
UmmLayth you are blocked. So I won't bother responding to you, but there are different forms of feminism just so you know. I had a lot of classes that argued with different forms of feminism in my graduate seminars and I never agreed with any of them. So please do not accuse me of regurgitating feminist arguments if you do not know well enough the arguments to make that accusation.

Thanks
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'Abd-al Latif
08-03-2017, 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
UmmLayth you are blocked. So I won't bother responding to you, but there are different forms of feminism just so you know. I had a lot of classes that argued with different forms of feminism in my graduate seminars and I never agreed with any of them. So please do not accuse me of regurgitating feminist arguments if you do not know well enough the arguments to make that accusation.

Thanks
Your posts are screaming for gender equality which implies that you believe there is gender inequality in Islam. Have I understood you correctly? I want to write a response but I want to make sure that I've understood you.
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Bhabha
08-03-2017, 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Your posts are screaming for gender equality which implies that you believe there is gender inequality in Islam. Have I understood you correctly? I want to write a response but I want to make sure that I've understood you.
When did I say that I believe there is gender inequality in Islam? [emoji33]

When you see a post that says "Oh there isn't gender equality in Islam" please quote me on that, otherwise don't make assumptions.

So no. You have not understood me at all.
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'Abd-al Latif
08-03-2017, 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
When did I say that I believe there is gender inequality in Islam? [emoji33]

When you see a post that says "Oh there isn't gender equality in Islam" please quote me on that, otherwise don't make assumptions.

So no. You have not understood me at all.
:D

I didnt say you said it I said you implied it.

You're clearly advocating for equality as you're critiquing men who restrict women to specific roles within society (specifically in the context of a Muslim society) suggesting that this shouldn't be the case any longer as this devalues women. If you're not suggesting that there is inequality which needs to be eradicated then what are you saying?
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Bhabha
08-03-2017, 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
:D

I didnt say you said it I said you implied it.

You're clearly advocating for equality as you're critiquing men who restrict women to specific roles within society (specifically in the context of a Muslim society) suggesting that this shouldn't be the case any longer as this devalues women. If you're not suggesting that there is inequality which needs to be eradicated then what are you saying?
Hence why I told you not to make assumptions, as in don't pull words out of context or derive your own meaning from something that I am saying.

However, let's back up a little and something you said is quite interesting.

You're saying I am advocating for equality because I am critiquing men who restrict women to specific roles within society. I never once shouted equality and never once advocated for it, I was merely point out that women and men should not be relegated to do specific duties and that women should not be so consumed to be doing chores that are painted as their territory. I also said that both women AND men should be doing household chores and that men should be helping women.

You said in specific words "equality"; therefore assuming in some way or shape that there is inequality at presence that needs to be addressed. I never said that in any moment, I merely talked about assisting women as it is unfair to burden ANYONE (WOMEN or MAN) with the amount of work required to take care of a household. There's cleaning, there's cooking, there's taking care of a child. These are three positions that are often times filled by three different people, which is why people enjoy going to restaurants, they don't have to 1) cook and they don't have to 2) clean. In my arguments, I used women in the time of the Prophet to exemplify that women have worked successfully and have joined men in battle, OUTSIDE of the home. I should also remind you that the Prophet helped clean the house and if there was nothing cooked, he ate dates, thereby never forcing or compelling his wives to do cleaning OR cooking for him.

So please tell me how I am clearly advocating for an equality that is already present in Islam? I strongly believe there is equality in Islam, but I do not believe it is applied. I converted for Islam, not for the examples set by Muslims. Those are entirely and completely different things. As someone here said that Islam and PEOPLE (Muslim) are entirely different. Not 100% of Muslims adhere to Islamic teachings, so if I sound like I am critiquing in the context of a Muslim society, you know that this is true and have therefore allowed your own observations to declare assumptions on what I have said.

We need to address grievances in our societies in order to ensure we are adhering to Islamic teachings, not defending "cultural" items that cloud.

If there is something again that is misunderstood, please let me know :)
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Umm♥Layth
08-03-2017, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
UmmLayth you are blocked. So I won't bother responding to you, but there are different forms of feminism just so you know. I had a lot of classes that argued with different forms of feminism in my graduate seminars and I never agreed with any of them. So please do not accuse me of regurgitating feminist arguments if you do not know well enough the arguments to make that accusation.

Thanks
:giggling::embarrass:omg: Ok. Well, as they say "if you can't take the heat, get out of the cocina". Look, the truth makes people very uncomfortable, especially when they are living a lie. I am not the most eloquent of people and I do come off quite headstrong. Just not the type to beat around the bush. I do apologize if I've hurt you <3

Anyway, I will still come back and clarify some misunderstandings that Bhabha clearly has for the benefit of anyone else reading this information. :) insha'Allah. Just busy atm.
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*charisma*
08-03-2017, 01:54 PM
Assalamu Alaikum @Bhabha

Originally Posted by Bhabha
I'm not devaluing women who choose to stay at home and do housework. I am simply stating that the household duties are not just confined to the "womenfolk" and are not "feminine" work at all. To assume that only women and only feminine women do these household duties is also to devalue the work of women who choose to pursue careers outside of the conventional household, who choose to be scholars, be in politics, and do work that is generally seen and painted as "masculine". We have to get out of the assumptions that women belong in specific places, they don't. Women can choose to pursue whatever it is that they wish to pursue as long as it does not in any way violate Islamic teachings.

Obviously neither women or men should pursue fields where their faith and values are in question, I.e industries that deal with haram.

However it seems that someone in this thread assumes that I have assumptions about them, when the general "you" is meant to be a general sentence aimed at everyone who sees the thread.

I for one will not impose on my girls the duty of cleaning after the house without equally imposing this duty and obligation to my boys. That to me is unfair. I don't want the husband of my girls to treat them as though they just belong in the kitchen or cleaning and I don't want the wives of my sons to be under the assumption that they will be doing the housework. It is a shared responsibility and let's face it, there is no "single" person economy anymore for people to say that it is the man who will earn the income and the wife should be grateful she is not working (if she is at home). I say that if the wife stays at home and does the household duties, it is the husband who should be grateful that she is doing MORE work that is unrecognized and is therefore often undervalued.
I agree with what you're saying here, and I don't believe there would or should be any disagreement with that.
Originally Posted by Bhabha
As such the issue to consider is that people undervalue the actual work performed by women, who integrate all of the following individual duties: nanny (taking care of the child), maid (cleaning), cook (cooking). Etc. She has to be so many positions that it is unfair to ask this of a woman without providing help. As far as I know and according to sharia, the wife is not obligated to perform all of these tasks. Her only obligation is not to go outside of the house, not to allow strangers in her husbands house and therefore care for his property and to be intimate with her husband. Her husband has to assist her in cooking, cleaning and taking care of the kids, but she is not obligated.
That's true, however it really all depends on the situation of the couple. I expect that if a woman is a housewife and therefore not working, then she should be cleaning, cooking, taking care of the kids, etc. She always has the choice to do what she wants to do of course, but if she's not doing anything then I personally consider that as laziness and entitlement. It's not haram to be that way, but it's not ideal either.

Every family unit operates the way they frame themselves to operate. No one can restrict a woman to do anything more than herself, especially today.

It's not really ok to generalize and believe that being a housewife is more difficult than working at a job/making a living or vice versa. They are both important in different ways and both challenging as well. Just because a husband is absent from the "house life" and providing for his family, doesn't mean he is absent from the family life too. He is still a husband/father at the end of the day and such roles are more important.

Originally Posted by Bhabha
Despite this I have seen countless of times that many women who devote themselves to doing things out of love for their husbands, taking care of children, cooking, cleaning, being intimate with them are not held with high regard when the husband decided to seek a second, third or even fourth wife. Is there no shame?
I don't understand this statement. High regard in what effect? Can you clarify? Are you saying that if a husband marries a second wife it means he never appreciated the efforts of the first wife? Or are you implying that even if a woman satisfies all of her duties as a wife, her husband will still seek another wife regardless so therefore what is the point of her putting in all that work? What is the husband supposed to feel ashamed about?


Originally Posted by Bhabha
Sometimes they seek divorce and after having been faithful wives, dedicated, etc. Those who did not work are left with literally nothing. They have to go back to their families or seek a second marriage because they do not have the skills, experience or sometimes education (because they chose to stay at home to care for their children) and are therefore unable to provide for themselves.
Why is the husband to blame for this if this is what the wife chose to do?
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Simple_Person
08-03-2017, 02:02 PM
The women of today are RUBBISH. Let me explain further so everybody can understand why i am saying what i am saying.

The question to ask is not whether the man has the right to do this and and the woman has the right to do that. I can have a right to have certain things, but i have to ask the question is that good for me? Islam as a whole EXACTLY surrounds itself based on this philosophical idea. Free will. You are free to do what EVER you want. You want to kill your own mother?, go a head, nobody is stopping you. You want to rob a bank? Go ahead..you have free will. You want to help the people in need? Go ahead..

When you enter Islam, is not because you are "forced", rather you CHOOSE to give up this free will. Why? You have logically, rationally and reasonably concluded that the Islamic way of life, is better for you. It is to simplify it saying, coffee with 2 tea spoons of sugar is the BEST way to have your coffee. Thus you abstain from all other ways to drink your coffee. In other words you give up your free will and you submit to having your coffee exactly like how it is prescribed.

Now off course people will say to have such a way of life, that is living like a "robot" and not being "unique". The approach is not really about being unique or not unique, rather the perspective rather is you have logically, rationally and reasonably concluded that the Islamic way of life is the BEST way to live your life. So you live by that way.

The women of today have become rather resentful towards men. Because in the past and even today many men look down on women as the "weaker" gender, they are trying to "proof" themselves otherwise. However by "proving" themselves otherwise, they are rather going against the "giving up of their free will"-(Islamic way of life). What am i talking about?

Allah has made men and women certain way. Allah has given certain abilities to men and certain abilities to women, Allah has also given certain desires to men and certain desires to women. By wanting to "proof" themselves they are trying to neglect THEIR desires ALL to take "revenge" on men. If we talk about being "retarded" (yes insult), that is being retarded to the core. Why? When one neglects their own desires they will feel the consequences later on.

So what "desires" am i talking about when for example talking about women? The desire of WANTING children. The desire of WANTING to have loving husband that gives YOU attention and says "i love you" when he sees you. The desire to walk with your little girl/boy and enjoying all her/his habits. Being your own sunshine in your life. These a more of these desires by neglecting them, you are making your life miserable. Who says you HAVE to work? Islam does not say you may not work or you must work. Islam leaves this option open for you. However how stupid are you to arrogantly through away your life because you look at OTHER ..yes you look at others and they say "i have a job as a woman and i have my own money". That woman is NOT telling you what she does not have. She does not say to you, if it was up to me i would without a doubt replace everything i have with a family of my own. Too much pride and dishonesty.

The feminists of today are experiencing exactly that. Men are leaving those feminists on the side and try to have nothing to do with them. Because their mentality is killing themselves from within.

So what is my advice? Allah has made you certain way. Go PONDER what Allah wants for you. He knows you better than you know yourself. Submit to His way of life and you will find happiness and tranquility. If you do not go and ponder to find what it is how Allah has made you, i can GUARANTEE you, you will be miserable later on. Because at the end, when we do not practice according to our fitrah, depression is the outcome.

When you do have found the way Allah has made clear for you what path you need to walk on, PONDER about WHY that path is good for you. Be convinced of it and if somebody tries to argue against your argument, you have a logical, rational and reasonable argument that does not break. This rather helps you with building up your imaan. When you are not married yet and have concluded the path Allah has made clear for you, we know in Islam how to choose our spouse. So follow that path i beg of you for you OWN happiness not mine. I will die before your or after you and maybe never have known you by face or met you in person.

Stop following your heart, rather use your brain for once.
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Bhabha
08-03-2017, 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
LOL! Ok, well the truth makes people very uncomfortable when they are living a lie. I will still come back and clarify some misunderstandings that Bhabha clearly has for the benefit of anyone else reading this information. :) insha'Allah.
Lol. The truth does indeed make one uncomfortable, and in this I am referring to you.

Read up on feminism, then again it takes quite a lot of different contexts and arguments in a graduate seminar to unravel the mysteries of this 'feminism' you've painted as a singular item.
There are many, many many forms of feminism.

And if advocating for women to be respected, to be given their rights, to be assisted with their everyday plights sounds like 'feminist' regurgitation to you, then you are one of those who sees a woman in need of assistance and would turn her back on her? "Feminism" is just a word shouted at women women who talk about the injustices made to women. To belittle their grievances that they wish to address and to make them sound hysterical.

Similarly when a Muslim wants to address grievances made to Muslims by speaking out politically, aren't they also called radicals? extremists? I've worked on so many campaigns addressing security policies and that attack Muslims and Muslim societies, in particular in the United States / Canada. Addressing problems of context, wording to governments so that Muslims are not targeted in security policies. If you live in the United Kingdom, you know about the security policies in force that make it possible to have searches done on Muslim communities for the sake of "safety";

Ironically, in these circumstances a "Muslim" speaking on behalf of their Muslim communities is seen as an illegitimate source because they come from that community. A non-Muslim, arguing and striving to end the words in security policies that target Muslim communities is seen as more legitimate because they do not come from that community. A couple of years after slavery had engulfed Europe, North America, South America, etc., students in Universities that were "BLACK" were not allowed to argue against the problems brought on by slavery, or the context of slavery itself because they belonged to that community. It was seen as 'illegitimate'. Similarly, vegans who do not wish to consume meat, harm animals, etc., whenever they offer up alternatives to meat consumption, have cooking shows that provide alternatives for people interested in a vegan diet, are seen as radicals and extremists, while the same kind of communication by someone who eats meat and decides to have a 'clean' breakfast of fruits and vegetables is painted differently.

I would suggest you be careful with the way you frame things and the narratives you embed your arguments with.

Anddddd. I'm at work right now, so my answers might be brief :P

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
LOL! Ok, well the truth makes people very uncomfortable when they are living a lie. I will still come back and clarify some misunderstandings that Bhabha clearly has for the benefit of anyone else reading this information. :) insha'Allah.
Lol. The truth does indeed make one uncomfortable, and in this I am referring to you.

Read up on feminism, then again it takes quite a lot of different contexts and arguments in a graduate seminar to unravel the mysteries of this 'feminism' you've painted as a singular item.
There are many, many many forms of feminism.

And if advocating for women to be respected, to be given their rights, to be assisted with their everyday plights sounds like 'feminist' regurgitation to you, then you are one of those who sees a woman in need of assistance and would turn her back on her? "Feminism" is just a word shouted at women women who talk about the injustices made to women. To belittle their grievances that they wish to address and to make them sound hysterical.

Similarly when a Muslim wants to address grievances made to Muslims by speaking out politically, aren't they also called radicals? extremists? I've worked on so many campaigns addressing security policies and that attack Muslims and Muslim societies, in particular in the United States / Canada. Addressing problems of context, wording to governments so that Muslims are not targeted in security policies. If you live in the United Kingdom, you know about the security policies in force that make it possible to have searches done on Muslim communities for the sake of "safety";

Ironically, in these circumstances a "Muslim" speaking on behalf of their Muslim communities is seen as an illegitimate source because they come from that community. A non-Muslim, arguing and striving to end the words in security policies that target Muslim communities is seen as more legitimate because they do not come from that community. A couple of years after slavery had engulfed Europe, North America, South America, etc., students in Universities that were "BLACK" were not allowed to argue against the problems brought on by slavery, or the context of slavery itself because they belonged to that community. It was seen as 'illegitimate'. Similarly, vegans who do not wish to consume meat, harm animals, etc., whenever they offer up alternatives to meat consumption, have cooking shows that provide alternatives for people interested in a vegan diet, are seen as radicals and extremists, while the same kind of communication by someone who eats meat and decides to have a 'clean' breakfast of fruits and vegetables is painted differently.

I would suggest you be careful with the way you frame things and the narratives you embed your arguments with.

Anddddd. I'm at work right now, so my answers might be brief :P
Reply

Umm♥Layth
08-03-2017, 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
Lol. The truth does indeed make one uncomfortable, and in this I am referring to you.
I'm not the one running away and blocking people sis :) I can talk about this all day and have no issues with it. Other people's perspectives don't make me uncomfortable because I have no agenda here. People have the right to believe what they will and it isn't my place to shove my view down somebody's throat. I'm here to gather information and share what I have to offer. :statisfie

I have actually studied feminism in all of its forms and have a 7 year project going on. I won't be done for another few years though, slow process, lots and lots of reading. One day, insha'Allah. I have bigger fish to fry in the process. You have no idea what I mean when I use the word "feminism" and I suggest you stop to assume the worst in people.

You are now basically implying I'm somehow extreme in my views when it couldn't be further from the truth lol. I would never turn a woman down when she needs help, in fact, I've dedicated my life to helping women so please take a seat.

You are not advocating anything, you are simply complaining about the same exact things every single woman who doesn't understand herself (and typically doesn't have any children or has been married) complains about. It is nothing new and when I said in my previous post that women in 50/50 households are actually more unhappy than the "traditional" single income household was another subject, this is where I was going.

I won't respond to your personal attacks, but I will still be back to clarify your misconceptions to others. It isn't an easy subject, it is soooo very delicate and detailed that it has taken me so many years of careful study to gather the understanding I have today.

BBL :)
Reply

Bhabha
08-03-2017, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
I'm not the one running away and blocking people sis :) I can talk about this all day and have no issues with it. Other people's perspectives don't make me uncomfortable because I have no agenda here. People have the right to believe what they will and it isn't my place to shove my view down somebody's throat. I'm here to gather information and share what I have to offer. :statisfie

I have actually studied feminism in all of its forms and have a 7 year project going on. I won't be done for another few years though, slow process, lots and lots of reading. One day, insha'Allah. I have bigger fish to fry in the process. You have no idea what I mean when I use the word "feminism" and I suggest you stop to assume the worst in people.

You are now basically implying I'm somehow extreme in my views when it couldn't be further from the truth lol. I would never turn a woman down when she needs help, in fact, I've dedicated my life to helping women so please take a seat.

You are not advocating anything, you are simply complaining about the same exact things every single woman who doesn't understand herself (and typically doesn't have any children or has been married) complains about. It is nothing new and when I said in my previous post that women in 50/50 households are actually more unhappy than the "traditional" single income household was another subject, this is where I was going.

I won't respond to your personal attacks, but I will still be back to clarify your misconceptions to others. It isn't an easy subject, it is soooo very delicate and detailed that it has taken me so many years of careful study to gather the understanding I have today.

BBL :)
So then I am assuming you have a PhD or at least a Masters in the subject to tell me otherwise? :)
Reply

Umm♥Layth
08-03-2017, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
So then I am assuming you have a PhD or at least a Masters in the subject to tell me otherwise? :)
Enough with the smartass responses. I don't take that kind of bait :)

What's funny is that I was one of those women nobody wanted to help. Allah forbid you are ever put in a position where you are on the street with a kid, after being beaten, kicked while pregnant and told you are a worthless piece of ---- as well as denied education. Allah forbid you ever have to worry about what you are going to feed your child and how you are going to rebuild your life.

It's amazing that people who have never experienced real poverty, abuse or any real injustice sure have alot to say about it and have very strong opinions on those matters. It's all talk though. Those who have actually suffered and have risen above without support don't do so much talking and arguing. They simply do.

What do you ACTUALLY do for women besides just talk and complain? Please don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question.
Reply

Bhabha
08-03-2017, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
Enough with the smartass responses. I don't take that kind of bait :)

What's funny is that I was one of those women nobody wanted to help. Allah forbid you are ever put in a position where you are on the street with a kid, after being beaten, kicked while pregnant and told you are a worthless piece of ---- as well as denied education. Allah forbid you ever have to worry about what you are going to feed your child and how you are going to rebuild your life.

It's amazing that people who have never experienced real poverty, abuse or any real injustice sure have alot to say about it and have very strong opinions on those matters. It's all talk though. Those who have actually suffered and have risen above without support don't do so much talking and arguing. They simply do.

What do you ACTUALLY do for women besides just talk and complain? Please don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question.
Lol. You do not know my life, just because I don't complain, and I'm not ever going to complain about my life.

Who put you on the streets? beat you? kicked you while pregnant and told you, you were a worthless person, as well as denied education to?

Have you ever had to run away from bullets?

Flee a country in fear of persecution?

Have you ever been sold in sexual slavery?

Please tell me if you've ever been in that kind of situation.

Millions and I mean millions of women face abuse every single day. How does a society rectify the individual circumstances that ail different women? Structures of support and organizations that seek to provide assistance and help to women who face horrible situations.

You say that those who have actually suffered and have risen about without support, don't do much talking and arguing. But here you are, complaining about your situations and the previous circumstances that you faced. Why do you talk then and share information about your suffering?

I don't complain about the life Allah has given me. Do you?
Reply

anatolian
08-03-2017, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
(smile) You have not answered the question of "who or what".

Also, is it the work itself that is necessarily being disgraced? If I am a daycare worker, do I not have some value? And am I working harder than a mother with her own children?
Ok the answer is men, at least some men..It doesnt neccesarily mean the work itself has no value in reality. People can invent their own realities and make other people believe in them for personal gain. Those works can be paid with a great amount of money in some particular parts of the World and have a value in the eyes of people (since the money is the value in a capitalist society but thats itself is another topic to discuss) but in a family that might be regarded as a simple woethless work by the husband to lower the position of the wife to control her easier. It doesnt have to have a logic at all. If you are believed to feel that way, you have already given the permision to be oppressed. Of course not all men are like that but some are. Is it more clear now? :)
Reply

Simple_Person
08-03-2017, 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
Enough with the smartass responses. I don't take that kind of bait :)

What's funny is that I was one of those women nobody wanted to help. Allah forbid you are ever put in a position where you are on the street with a kid, after being beaten, kicked while pregnant and told you are a worthless piece of ---- as well as denied education. Allah forbid you ever have to worry about what you are going to feed your child and how you are going to rebuild your life.

It's amazing that people who have never experienced real poverty, abuse or any real injustice sure have alot to say about it and have very strong opinions on those matters. It's all talk though. Those who have actually suffered and have risen above without support don't do so much talking and arguing. They simply do.

What do you ACTUALLY do for women besides just talk and complain? Please don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question.
As salamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Sister can you do something for the sake of Allah?..please STOP the "conversation" with that sister.

First sheytan loves such discussions, where emotions(anger/hate) start to ignite. That being said, also please know that understanding comes from Allah, NOT from you. You have done your best and it is EVEN a mercy from Allah to that sister that you gave your perspective (which i agree with based on logic, rationality and reason). However that sister is not really here to have a dialogue, the problem is her heart just by reading her comments. I have seen a lot of videos and read or heard stories how many women of today look down at men who are equal victims of fights in relationships, however feminists just laugh at such male victims.

To you sister @Bhabha, ask yourself could it be maybe..JUST MAYBE..that sister Umm♥Layth says something that is indeed true and you are wrong. I know you can find 1000 excuses that you are right and that sister is wrong. However the wise person rather searches for the excuse why that sister is right and you might be wrong. When doing exactly this, you might learn more. How can you find this excuse that she indeed might be right? Start listening. By listening one will ask question to want to understand it.

You will only benefit from this believe me. A human being can only surpass previous people by listening to their experience and wisdom, thus not making exactly the same mistakes. Why do you think Allah continuously talks about PREVIOUS people? So we do NOT make the same mistakes as it was clear what happened to them in the end.
Reply

anatolian
08-03-2017, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
In one of my classes, we were discussing Muslim women of the Ottoman Empire, before the spread of Europeans into the Ottoman Empire. My professor made note that it is historically incorrect to assume that women have been at the home doing household duties without working. This is a European fallacy BTW. As Europeans were the most oppressive towards their womenfolk and women were neither allowed to have money gained from working or to hold their own property.

Women in the ottoman periods had their own businesses and were very wealthy of their own without their husbands money.

So it is incorrect to stipulate that women's place has been in the household historically, only in some cultures ( in this case I say mostly European cultures ) as women in the time of the Prophet fought alongside him and Khadijah was a very successful business woman.
Well dont think so..Women as a whole didnt have such a position in the Ottoman period also. That may apply to rich women who already had a privilage coming from family before the marriage but not ordinary women. But of course they did some works to contribute the family.
Reply

M.I.A.
08-03-2017, 03:23 PM
You know..

Once upon a time i thought you had to pay for things with money.

But now i am forever fearful of what this dunya costs.


..if you dont see it that way then do as you please.

But yeah, if you can teach your kids to help around the house regardless of gender.. its probably not a bad thing.

Or persuing education and careers.

That can mean whatever you want it to really.

..its part of living in our own little bubbles that is life.

Its highly dependant on what you want and how "society" accepts your contribution..

..society or allah swt.

What you make of the world or what the world makes of you.
Reply

Umm♥Layth
08-03-2017, 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
Lol. You do not know my life, just because I don't complain, and I'm not ever going to complain about my life.

Who put you on the streets? beat you? kicked you while pregnant and told you, you were a worthless person, as well as denied education to?

Have you ever had to run away from bullets?

Flee a country in fear of persecution?

Have you ever been sold in sexual slavery?

Please tell me if you've ever been in that kind of situation.

Millions and I mean millions of women face abuse every single day. How does a society rectify the individual circumstances that ail different women? Structures of support and organizations that seek to provide assistance and help to women who face horrible situations.

You say that those who have actually suffered and have risen about without support, don't do much talking and arguing. But here you are, complaining about your situations and the previous circumstances that you faced. Why do you talk then and share information about your suffering?

I don't complain about the life Allah has given me. Do you?
I'm actually letting you know that you are speaking to someone with first hand experience on the matters regarding women, abuse and women's rights being violated. I don't have a reason to complain in all honesty and my experiences are something I'm quite grateful for at this stage in my life. I wouldn't be where I am today had I not lived what I did so Alhamdullilah. The purpose of sharing a life story or experience with another person is to connect and find a mutual understanding of sorts.

By definition, a complaint is a statement made to communicate to another that a situation is unsatisfactory or unacceptable. So far, this is what you have done the entire time you've been posting about this subject. Which is why I asked, what are you actually doing?

I said the same exact thing to you earlier. You don't know my life. So for you to assume that I'm somehow extreme or radical in my views on feminism and that your wrongful assumption somehow implies that I would turn a woman away, is truly quite unfair. I work quite hard and have given countless hours of my time to women, even if its just to listen.

I'm not here to argue with you actually, but you keep throwing insults, assumptions and accusations my way when I'm merely trying to have a discussion and set some misunderstandings right.

Anyway, I'm done with the back and forth. When I have some extra time, I'll come and add my two cents in regards to the actual issues on hand. Looks like you have other posts to respond to :)

Have a good day sis!
Reply

Bhabha
08-03-2017, 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
As salamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Sister can you do something for the sake of Allah?..please STOP the "conversation" with that sister.

First sheytan loves such discussions, where emotions(anger/hate) start to ignite. That being said, also please know that understanding comes from Allah, NOT from you. You have done your best and it is EVEN a mercy from Allah to that sister that you gave your perspective (which i agree with based on logic, rationality and reason). However that sister is not really here to have a dialogue, the problem is her heart just by reading her comments. I have seen a lot of videos and read or heard stories how many women of today look down at men who are equal victims of fights in relationships, however feminists just laugh at such male victims.

To you sister @Bhabha, ask yourself could it be maybe..JUST MAYBE..that sister Umm♥Layth says something that is indeed true and you are wrong. I know you can find 1000 excuses that you are right and that sister is wrong. However the wise person rather searches for the excuse why that sister is right and you might be wrong. When doing exactly this, you might learn more. How can you find this excuse that she indeed might be right? Start listening. By listening one will ask question to want to understand it.

You will only benefit from this believe me. A human being can only surpass previous people by listening to their experience and wisdom, thus not making exactly the same mistakes. Why do you think Allah continuously talks about PREVIOUS people? So we do NOT make the same mistakes as it was clear what happened to them in the end.
Omg....

I am not looking down on men who are equal victims of fights in their relationships. And as I said to someone in this thread, using the word "feminist" is to make someone who is trying to alleviate women's problems as hysterical and illogical. I never said that men are not victims and I did not laugh at men who have been victims. I understand both men and women are victimized, but I was not speaking at all about victimization, I was speaking about fairness in the distribution of work in the house.

It is unfair for women to be given the only burden of doing housework, it is both and women who should be doing this. I never once spoke about 'victim' here or 'victim' there, that is your lens on which you twisted my discussion. The only time I might have ever mentioned is on the occasion that women have to do all of the housework and the husband does not once ever provide them with financial recompense where they can choose to spend money on themselves, to save it, invest it., etc. Equally the same I have also seen on situations where women take everything that the man had and he is left with nothing. There are opposites on both ends that we need to mediate away from and enter a balance, such that neither party enters into disagreement.

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Originally Posted by Simple_Person
As salamu alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Sister can you do something for the sake of Allah?..please STOP the "conversation" with that sister.

First sheytan loves such discussions, where emotions(anger/hate) start to ignite. That being said, also please know that understanding comes from Allah, NOT from you. You have done your best and it is EVEN a mercy from Allah to that sister that you gave your perspective (which i agree with based on logic, rationality and reason). However that sister is not really here to have a dialogue, the problem is her heart just by reading her comments. I have seen a lot of videos and read or heard stories how many women of today look down at men who are equal victims of fights in relationships, however feminists just laugh at such male victims.

To you sister @Bhabha, ask yourself could it be maybe..JUST MAYBE..that sister Umm♥Layth says something that is indeed true and you are wrong. I know you can find 1000 excuses that you are right and that sister is wrong. However the wise person rather searches for the excuse why that sister is right and you might be wrong. When doing exactly this, you might learn more. How can you find this excuse that she indeed might be right? Start listening. By listening one will ask question to want to understand it.

You will only benefit from this believe me. A human being can only surpass previous people by listening to their experience and wisdom, thus not making exactly the same mistakes. Why do you think Allah continuously talks about PREVIOUS people? So we do NOT make the same mistakes as it was clear what happened to them in the end.
Omg....

I am not looking down on men who are equal victims of fights in their relationships. And as I said to someone in this thread, using the word "feminist" is to make someone who is trying to alleviate women's problems as hysterical and illogical. I never said that men are not victims and I did not laugh at men who have been victims. I understand both men and women are victimized, but I was not speaking at all about victimization, I was speaking about fairness in the distribution of work in the house.

It is unfair for women to be given the only burden of doing housework, it is both and women who should be doing this. I never once spoke about 'victim' here or 'victim' there, that is your lens on which you twisted my discussion. The only time I might have ever mentioned is on the occasion that women have to do all of the housework and the husband does not once ever provide them with financial recompense where they can choose to spend money on themselves, to save it, invest it., etc. Equally the same I have also seen on situations where women take everything that the man had and he is left with nothing. There are opposites on both ends that we need to mediate away from and enter a balance, such that neither party enters into disagreement.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
08-03-2017, 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
Hence why I told you not to make assumptions, as in don't pull words out of context or derive your own meaning from something that I am saying.

However, let's back up a little and something you said is quite interesting.

You're saying I am advocating for equality because I am critiquing men who restrict women to specific roles within society. I never once shouted equality and never once advocated for it, I was merely point out that women and men should not be relegated to do specific duties and that women should not be so consumed to be doing chores that are painted as their territory. I also said that both women AND men should be doing household chores and that men should be helping women.

You said in specific words "equality"; therefore assuming in some way or shape that there is inequality at presence that needs to be addressed. I never said that in any moment, I merely talked about assisting women as it is unfair to burden ANYONE (WOMEN or MAN) with the amount of work required to take care of a household. There's cleaning, there's cooking, there's taking care of a child. These are three positions that are often times filled by three different people, which is why people enjoy going to restaurants, they don't have to 1) cook and they don't have to 2) clean. In my arguments, I used women in the time of the Prophet to exemplify that women have worked successfully and have joined men in battle, OUTSIDE of the home. I should also remind you that the Prophet helped clean the house and if there was nothing cooked, he ate dates, thereby never forcing or compelling his wives to do cleaning OR cooking for him.

So please tell me how I am clearly advocating for an equality that is already present in Islam? I strongly believe there is equality in Islam, but I do not believe it is applied. I converted for Islam, not for the examples set by Muslims. Those are entirely and completely different things. As someone here said that Islam and PEOPLE (Muslim) are entirely different. Not 100% of Muslims adhere to Islamic teachings, so if I sound like I am critiquing in the context of a Muslim society, you know that this is true and have therefore allowed your own observations to declare assumptions on what I have said.

We need to address grievances in our societies in order to ensure we are adhering to Islamic teachings, not defending "cultural" items that cloud.

If there is something again that is misunderstood, please let me know :)
Your post has been nothing more than a criticism of a lack of - in a nutshell - equality. Whether or not you've used this word is irrelevant as the meaning of your message is clear. This is obvious because you've said how women are 'undervalued' and they're 'left with nothing' after divorce suggesting that it's a man's fault for the life women are given. You then go on to state what the Prophet used to do because you state 'he never compelled his wives to do cleaning or cooking', again taking a swipe at the opposite gender rather than using his sunnah to benefit others.

I'm not sure what I can say to make a positive contribution to this thread as I'm not the same gender as you. God forbid I should give you the impression that my mother has raised me to be anything like the incompetent, thoughtless, inconsiderate, and careless males that you've described in your posts.
Reply

Bhabha
08-03-2017, 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
You know..

Once upon a time i thought you had to pay for things with money.

But now i am forever fearful of what this dunya costs.


..if you dont see it that way then do as you please.

But yeah, if you can teach your kids to help around the house regardless of gender.. its probably not a bad thing.

Or persuing education and careers.

That can mean whatever you want it to really.

..its part of living in our own little bubbles that is life.

Its highly dependant on what you want and how "society" accepts your contribution..

..society or allah swt.

What you make of the world or what the world makes of you.
Pursuing education does not have to be for the sole purpose of making money..... Tell that to anyone pursuing a PhD.. it has nothing to do with financial gain, if that were the case people would be pursuing degrees in finance / accounting / commerce, instead of pursuing degrees in policy structure, environmentalism, etc. etc., money is not the sole purpose of an education OR a career.

It is also to make a contribution that ameliorates the social condition and / OR to make one that alleviates the burden of beings who are targeted by irrational policies. People who go into education go because they love learning and gaining knowledge.

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Originally Posted by M.I.A.
You know..

Once upon a time i thought you had to pay for things with money.

But now i am forever fearful of what this dunya costs.


..if you dont see it that way then do as you please.

But yeah, if you can teach your kids to help around the house regardless of gender.. its probably not a bad thing.

Or persuing education and careers.

That can mean whatever you want it to really.

..its part of living in our own little bubbles that is life.

Its highly dependant on what you want and how "society" accepts your contribution..

..society or allah swt.

What you make of the world or what the world makes of you.
Pursuing education does not have to be for the sole purpose of making money..... Tell that to anyone pursuing a PhD.. it has nothing to do with financial gain, if that were the case people would be pursuing degrees in finance / accounting / commerce, instead of pursuing degrees in policy structure, environmentalism, etc. etc., money is not the sole purpose of an education OR a career.

It is also to make a contribution that ameliorates the social condition and / OR to make one that alleviates the burden of beings who are targeted by irrational policies. People who go into education go because they love learning and gaining knowledge.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
08-03-2017, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
You are right, there are no rules in sharia that say women have to do all the housework, but the QURAN does clearly say we must obey our husbands (oh no!) and if you (you in general) marry a man that is going to request this of you, then be prepared to accept it. Otherwise, what responsibility does a woman have in a marriage? To sit there and look pretty? A man is obligated to provide and she gets to just suck her thumb? Talk about unfair! lol.
Brilliant. Now THESE are good questions!
Reply

Bhabha
08-03-2017, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Brilliant. Now THESE are good questions!
Someone who doesn't like doing household duties isn't going to marry a man that will request this of them, let alone command them.
What more than taking care of a child's education? Attending to his needs? Ensuring the finances are well kept? Being kind to her husband? etc.

If she doesn't like doing some things, then how is a husband going to force his wife to do them?

Marriage isn't "do this".. "do that";

Is the husband just supposed to shout "jump on one foot" and the wife is obligated to do that? No. That's not how it works.

A man is obligated to provide his family a place to live, food to eat. He also lives in this place and eats from this food. So he's not just feeding others, he's feeding himself as well and feeding children that his wife had for him. Is a wife supposed to do the household work continually while being pregnant? while nursing? does she get rest? :hmm:

Why is it that you guys / and girls, (you in general) have a problem with providing the wife with assistance through a maid? If you can't afford it and if it's not financially possible, then what's the big deal with just helping her out when you get home? She's supposed to maintain a pristine castle for her husband when he comes back, but she's not entitled to some help? That is unfair. What about her health? How can she spend more time with her children, by encouraging education, manners, etc., if she has to be continually concerned for the condition of the house.

If you can't afford it, or if the thought of hiring a maid suddenly offends you, just say so.. lol don't need to get on this rant about the "obligation" of a wife to clean / cook / care for children, when it's just the thought of having to spend money hiring a maid / nanny that disturbs you.

Simple as that.

"No, some men don't have the money to hire a maid and they don't want to help either, too bad" rather than framing it as "Oh, it's the wife's obligation to her husband's wishes, etc. etc." when we know the problem is from not having the financial backing to provide help to the dear wives.
Reply

M.I.A.
08-03-2017, 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
Pursuing education does not have to be for the sole purpose of making money..... Tell that to anyone pursuing a PhD.. it has nothing to do with financial gain, if that were the case people would be pursuing degrees in finance / accounting / commerce, instead of pursuing degrees in policy structure, environmentalism, etc. etc., money is not the sole purpose of an education OR a career.

It is also to make a contribution that ameliorates the social condition and / OR to make one that alleviates the burden of beings who are targeted by irrational policies. People who go into education go because they love learning and gaining knowledge.

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Pursuing education does not have to be for the sole purpose of making money..... Tell that to anyone pursuing a PhD.. it has nothing to do with financial gain, if that were the case people would be pursuing degrees in finance / accounting / commerce, instead of pursuing degrees in policy structure, environmentalism, etc. etc., money is not the sole purpose of an education OR a career.

It is also to make a contribution that ameliorates the social condition and / OR to make one that alleviates the burden of beings who are targeted by irrational policies. People who go into education go because they love learning and gaining knowledge.
Well.. my naivety would say its easier to be helpful when you have some security behind you.

The other type of change and progress is enforced.

Brilliant. Now THESE are good questions!
..as it is, i wash my own equipment, mop my own floors, clean my own windows at work lol.

...dont tell the wife :p

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Originally Posted by Bhabha
Pursuing education does not have to be for the sole purpose of making money..... Tell that to anyone pursuing a PhD.. it has nothing to do with financial gain, if that were the case people would be pursuing degrees in finance / accounting / commerce, instead of pursuing degrees in policy structure, environmentalism, etc. etc., money is not the sole purpose of an education OR a career.

It is also to make a contribution that ameliorates the social condition and / OR to make one that alleviates the burden of beings who are targeted by irrational policies. People who go into education go because they love learning and gaining knowledge.

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Pursuing education does not have to be for the sole purpose of making money..... Tell that to anyone pursuing a PhD.. it has nothing to do with financial gain, if that were the case people would be pursuing degrees in finance / accounting / commerce, instead of pursuing degrees in policy structure, environmentalism, etc. etc., money is not the sole purpose of an education OR a career.

It is also to make a contribution that ameliorates the social condition and / OR to make one that alleviates the burden of beings who are targeted by irrational policies. People who go into education go because they love learning and gaining knowledge.
Well.. my naivety would say its easier to be helpful when you have some security behind you.

The other type of change and progress is enforced.

Brilliant. Now THESE are good questions!
..as it is, i wash my own equipment, mop my own floors, clean my own windows at work lol.

...dont tell the wife :p

Its highly dependant on what individuals want out of life.. and those goals tend to change as we grow and gain experience.

But the choices are never independent of each other.
Reply

Bhabha
08-03-2017, 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
Well.. my naivety would say its easier to be helpful when you have some security behind you.

The other type of change and progress is enforced.


..as it is, i wash my own equipment, mop my own floors, clean my own windows at work lol.

...dont tell the wife :p

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Well.. my naivety would say its easier to be helpful when you have some security behind you.

The other type of change and progress is enforced.


..as it is, i wash my own equipment, mop my own floors, clean my own windows at work lol.

...dont tell the wife :p
I agree, it is easier to be helpful when there's security behind you. I would also apply this to a marriage situation where the wife has to be at home, if by security you mean financial security. Right?
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
08-03-2017, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
Someone who doesn't like doing household duties isn't going to marry a man that will request this of them, let alone command them.
What more than taking care of a child's education? Attending to his needs? Ensuring the finances are well kept? Being kind to her husband? etc.

If she doesn't like doing some things, then how is a husband going to force his wife to do them?

Marriage isn't "do this".. "do that";

Is the husband just supposed to shout "jump on one foot" and the wife is obligated to do that? No. That's not how it works.

A man is obligated to provide his family a place to live, food to eat. He also lives in this place and eats from this food. So he's not just feeding others, he's feeding himself as well and feeding children that his wife had for him. Is a wife supposed to do the household work continually while being pregnant? while nursing? does she get rest? :hmm:

Why is it that you guys / and girls, (you in general) have a problem with providing the wife with assistance through a maid? If you can't afford it and if it's not financially possible, then what's the big deal with just helping her out when you get home? She's supposed to maintain a pristine castle for her husband when he comes back, but she's not entitled to some help? That is unfair. What about her health? How can she spend more time with her children, by encouraging education, manners, etc., if she has to be continually concerned for the condition of the house.

If you can't afford it, or if the thought of hiring a maid suddenly offends you, just say so.. lol don't need to get on this rant about the "obligation" of a wife to clean / cook / care for children, when it's just the thought of having to spend money hiring a maid / nanny that disturbs you.

Simple as that.

"No, some men don't have the money to hire a maid and they don't want to help either, too bad" rather than framing it as "Oh, it's the wife's obligation to her husband's wishes, etc. etc." when we know the problem is from not having the financial backing to provide help to the dear wives.
It's interesting that you're lecturing me on what marriage is and what my responsibilities are while associating men to use words like 'command' and 'force' and 'shout'. Women who kick up such a fuss about being so unproductive while shifting 100% of the responsibility to their partner, and insist their husband provide a maid to be at her beck and call prior to marriage isn't ready to be married.

Marriage is about commitment, sacrifice and effort (notice I'm not mentioning a gender here) and not sitting on your lazy backside expecting someone else to pull your weight.

Seeing as you're so well acquainted with what my responsibilities are as a male, I'd like to know what you believe your responsibilities are as a Muslim wife.
Reply

Bhabha
08-03-2017, 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
It's interesting that you're lecturing me on what marriage is and what my responsibilities are while associating men to use words like 'command' and 'force' and 'shout'. Women who kick up such a fuss about being so unproductive while shifting 100% of the responsibility to their partner, and insist their husband provide a maid to be at her beck and call prior to marriage isn't ready to be married.

Marriage is about commitment, sacrifice and effort (notice I'm not mentioning a gender here) and not sitting on your lazy backside expecting someone else to pull your weight.
Sitting on your lazy backside? Lol. Thankfully none of the women in my family have sat in their lazy backside expecting someone else to pull their weights. Each husband has provided a wife with a maid as it is the custom, but they are not lazy women lol. Why are women who have maids provided by loving husbands labelled as lazy?

I suppose it is better to see the woman you supposedly love in pain all day after standing up and cleaning the household? Correct? Or would you rather see the woman you love calm with the energy to read the Quran, to teach the children to read the Quran, excited to see you come home, able to pull of amazing dishes without the stress of having to clean up after the kitchen, yet look pretty and smell amazing for her husband when he rushes home.

My brother who was raised in Canada also thought he'd never get a maid, not because he doesn't want one, but because he doesn't want one intruding in the privacy of his house with his wife. But later found out it is exhausting and it is better to have someone come in and clean, while you can go out and enjoy with your wife, or come home and everything is cleaned, your wife is not tired and you can relax with her and do activities together.

From yours and the other person's conversation, it seems that you all feel that women who have maids must be lazy, for having them. Correct? I am just assuming those arguing against someone having a maid to help in the house (whether or not the wife is working), have never experienced this kind of lifestyle, otherwise you wouldn't be targeting someone who thinks maids are an essential service to have in the house, for the benefit of both husband and wife.
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'Abd-al Latif
08-03-2017, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
I suppose it is better to see the woman you supposedly love in pain all day after standing up and cleaning the household? Correct? Or would you rather see the woman you love calm with the energy to read the Quran, to teach the children to read the Quran, excited to see you come home, able to pull of amazing dishes without the stress of having to clean up after the kitchen, yet look pretty and smell amazing for her husband when he rushes home.
The daughter of the Prophet (:saws1:) was refused a maid by the Messenger himself yet she was still able to make time to recite Quran and such. The modern women clearly needs an extra pair of hands to be half productive.

This isn't the first time you've avoided my questions. I believe I've made my point and have nothing more to contribute.

w/salam
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Simple_Person
08-03-2017, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
Omg....

I am not looking down on men who are equal victims of fights in their relationships. And as I said to someone in this thread, using the word "feminist" is to make someone who is trying to alleviate women's problems as hysterical and illogical. I never said that men are not victims and I did not laugh at men who have been victims. I understand both men and women are victimized, but I was not speaking at all about victimization, I was speaking about fairness in the distribution of work in the house.

It is unfair for women to be given the only burden of doing housework, it is both and women who should be doing this. I never once spoke about 'victim' here or 'victim' there, that is your lens on which you twisted my discussion. The only time I might have ever mentioned is on the occasion that women have to do all of the housework and the husband does not once ever provide them with financial recompense where they can choose to spend money on themselves, to save it, invest it., etc. Equally the same I have also seen on situations where women take everything that the man had and he is left with nothing. There are opposites on both ends that we need to mediate away from and enter a balance, such that neither party enters into disagreement.
Sister, i have never claimed you are one of those women that laughs at men who are victims, i said i have seen those things happen. Please do not automatically brand yourself as such because i say i have seen such women. I have not seen you or read from your comments that you are such a woman and it is forbidden for me as a Muslim to assume such evil thing of you.

And as I said to someone in this thread
Also please do not belittle that other sister (as how it looks like to me when you said that), as she is your and my sister in both humanity as well as Islam. She has a nickname and we both know who we are talking about. Always be nice even though we might disagree on something.

That you bring this issue of women have to do more housework, shows you have not really thought deeply about this matter. Let me ask you some questions.

- How come men ARE the providers (money) of a household?
- Can you please give me direct references where it is said that it is mandatory for a woman to do the household work? (because so far i have not found any)
- Can you please give me direct references where it is said that a man must NOT help in a household?
- Can you please give me direct references where men must NOT give money to their wives so they can spend on themselves (clothes, make-up, etc)
- Can you please give me direct references where it is said that women may not work, so they can save their money?
- Can you please tell me on what basis is your argument why you think PRACTICING Muslim men do not have to help out in a household?
- Do please with all of these questions leave out culture, because this is a Islamic forum, not a culture-forum. So all the rules according to culture we do not abide by those.

I will in'sha'Allah be waiting patiently for your reply.
Reply

Bhabha
08-03-2017, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
The daughter of the Prophet (:saws1:) was refused a maid by the Messenger himself yet she was still able to make time to recite Quran and such. The modern women clearly needs an extra pair of hands to be half productive.

This isn't the first time you've avoided my questions. I believe I've made my point and have nothing more to contribute.

w/salam
Can you please tell me which of the daughters of the Prophet was the one that was refused a maid? Was it a paid maid or a slave?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
The daughter of the Prophet (:saws1:) was refused a maid by the Messenger himself yet she was still able to make time to recite Quran and such. The modern women clearly needs an extra pair of hands to be half productive.

This isn't the first time you've avoided my questions. I believe I've made my point and have nothing more to contribute.

w/salam
Can you please tell me which of the daughters of the Prophet was the one that was refused a maid? Was it a paid maid or a slave?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Sister, i have never claimed you are one of those women that laughs at men who are victims, i said i have seen those things happen. Please do not automatically brand yourself as such because i say i have seen such women. I have not seen you or read from your comments that you are such a woman and it is forbidden for me as a Muslim to assume such evil thing of you.



Also please do not belittle that other sister (as how it looks like to me when you said that), as she is your and my sister in both humanity as well as Islam. She has a nickname and we both know who we are talking about. Always be nice even though we might disagree on something.

That you bring this issue of women have to do more housework, shows you have not really thought deeply about this matter. Let me ask you some questions.

- How come men ARE the providers (money) of a household?
- Can you please give me direct references where it is said that it is mandatory for a woman to do the household work? (because so far i have not found any)
- Can you please give me direct references where it is said that a man must NOT help in a household?
- Can you please give me direct references where men must NOT give money to their wives so they can spend on themselves (clothes, make-up, etc)
- Can you please give me direct references where it is said that women may not work, so they can save their money?
- Can you please tell me on what basis is your argument why you think PRACTICING Muslim men do not have to help out in a household?
- Do please with all of these questions leave out culture, because this is a Islamic forum, not a culture-forum. So all the rules according to culture we do not abide by those.

I will in'sha'Allah be waiting patiently for your reply.
I cannot give you direct references where it is mandatory for a woman to do the household work - hence why I argue! people assume it is!
I cannot give you references that a man must not help in a household - hence my arguments, people assume men do not need to do these things.
I cannot give you references that a man must not give money to his wife - hence my arguments, people.. people...
etc. etc. etc.,

We are on the exact same side from the questions you just asked me, that is why I am writing in this forum because it is the assumption of society that these things be that they are, and it does not come from Islam at all. I never said that practicing Muslim men do not have to help in a household, did I not point to the fact that the Prophet HELPED? So why do you think I am arguing that Muslim men do not have to help in a household? I think you're reading what I am writing incorrectly.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm:
Reply

M.I.A.
08-03-2017, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
I agree, it is easier to be helpful when there's security behind you. I would also apply this to a marriage situation where the wife has to be at home, if by security you mean financial security. Right?
Well yeah, in my naivety thats what i thought i meant..

But security of the home and all those things that go with it.. also applies.

Every path requires sacrifice.. in any of its many forms.

Allah swt make it easy for us.

But yeah, everbodies tests are there own.

I dont want to belittle any way of life but the housewife surely denies hereself the most.
Reply

Simple_Person
08-03-2017, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha

I cannot give you direct references where it is mandatory for a woman to do the household work - hence why I argue! people assume it is!
I cannot give you references that a man must not help in a household - hence my arguments, people assume men do not need to do these things.
I cannot give you references that a man must not give money to his wife - hence my arguments, people.. people...
etc. etc. etc.,

We are on the exact same side from the questions you just asked me, that is why I am writing in this forum because it is the assumption of society that these things be that they are, and it does not come from Islam at all. I never said that practicing Muslim men do not have to help in a household, did I not point to the fact that the Prophet HELPED? So why do you think I am arguing that Muslim men do not have to help in a household? I think you're reading what I am writing incorrectly.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm:
There you answered your own problem/irritation/topic.

Read the red bold parts.

======Hadith=====
“Islam began as something strange and will go back to being strange, so glad tidings to the strangers.” It was said: “Who are the strangers?’ He said: “Strangers who have left their families and tribes.”

Source used: https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah/36/63
===============

Do you want to be a stranger? Or do you not want to be a stranger?

I walk with a smile on my face everyday because i am a stranger in society. I have a opinion. I wear clothes that society would say it is boring. I look down when i see a woman and society says i am gay because i do not look. When somebody insults me, i rather treat him with respect, society says i am a loser for not hitting back (insulting back). I do not watch tv, society says you have nothing useful to talk about (pop idols, football, big brother..etc)

So why are you putting something on the "strangers"-forum, while no "stranger" her is arguing against you?

If you are not married yet, find out what the Prophet (saws) of the strangers has advised what kind of spouse to marry. :D.
Reply

Bhabha
08-03-2017, 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
There you answered your own problem/irritation/topic.

Read the red bold parts.

======Hadith=====
“Islam began as something strange and will go back to being strange, so glad tidings to the strangers.” It was said: “Who are the strangers?’ He said: “Strangers who have left their families and tribes.”

Source used: https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah/36/63
===============

Do you want to be a stranger? Or do you not want to be a stranger?

I walk with a smile on my face everyday because i am a stranger in society. I have a opinion. I wear clothes that society would say it is boring. I look down when i see a woman and society says i am gay because i do not look. When somebody insults me, i rather treat him with respect, society says i am a loser for not hitting back (insulting back). I do not watch tv, society says you have nothing useful to talk about (pop idols, football, big brother..etc)

So why are you putting something on the "strangers"-forum, while "stranger" her is arguing against you?

If you are not married yet, find out what the Prophet (saws) of the strangers has advised what kind of spouse to marry. :D.
Lol. I agree with you, but I think somewhere down the line came misunderstandings due to people's personal situations that made them argue against the idea of ever providing a wife with assistance, let alone assisting her and hence it spun into a web of continual arguments.

I don't know who would argue against providing the person you love with assistance so that their burden is lessened and their energies are not spent before the end of the day. After all, the best of husbands are those that are good to their wives, and that also comes out of realizing that housework in itself is very draining chore. Or perhaps it's just me, I absolutely hate doing housework, I like cooking, but I don't like cleaning the kitchen or doing the dishes, or mopping the floor. I like gardening, but I don't like cutting the grass lol. If I am ever with the task of cleaning the dishes, I stick them in the dishwasher otherwise I get grumpy and in a bad mood.

I also don't like a dirty house, and even though I dislike doing housework, I absolutely cannot come home to a messy house because I get stressed out.... but I'd rather pay for a maid to clean the house while I'm out, then to come home and clean it. @______@; like those cleaning ladies that come in the morning and leave before you come back, how did the house get all nice and clean? miracles :nervous::nervous::shade:
Reply

Simple_Person
08-03-2017, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
Lol. I agree with you, but I think somewhere down the line came misunderstandings due to people's personal situations that made them argue against the idea of ever providing a wife with assistance, let alone assisting her and hence it spun into a web of continual arguments.

I don't know who would argue against providing the person you love with assistance so that their burden is lessened and their energies are not spent before the end of the day. After all, the best of husbands are those that are good to their wives, and that also comes out of realizing that housework in itself is very draining chore. Or perhaps it's just me, I absolutely hate doing housework, I like cooking, but I don't like cleaning the kitchen or doing the dishes, or mopping the floor. I like gardening, but I don't like cutting the grass lol. If I am ever with the task of cleaning the dishes, I stick them in the dishwasher otherwise I get grumpy and in a bad mood.

I also don't like a dirty house, and even though I dislike doing housework, I absolutely cannot come home to a messy house because I get stressed out.... but I'd rather pay for a maid to clean the house while I'm out, then to come home and clean it. @______@; like those cleaning ladies that come in the morning and leave before you come back, how did the house get all nice and clean? miracles :nervous::nervous::shade:
One of the Sunnah of Rasullah(saws) was taking Ghusl on Jumah. The question you and i need to ask ourselves, why? What are the "benefits" for example doing it? We can easily find 1 benefit, which is becoming clean. This and also enough other instances within Islam being clean is part of being a Muslim. The "problem" with you, is you look at such things because of your own will. (free will). I have in my first comment on this topic already mentioned, Muslims do NOT have a free will. Because they already know the Islamic way of life is the best way of life.

You dislike something (in general) not because you dislike it, but because your fitrah dislikes it..in other words ..disliked by Islam. In again other words, disliked by Allah. You "disliking" doing the dishes and cleaning the house, must have a deeper meaning. Or deeper problem. Find out what that is.

I live by myself and i have been taking care of myself since when i was 16. This is already like 15 years. I cook, clean, do the dishes..you name it. I at first HATED doing the dishes. However this was BEFORE Islam. Islam cured what i loved and what i hated. Now the things that i loved, i hate it and what i hated it i love doing it. What am i talking about? Fitrah. When your fitrah is restored you automatically do certain stuff and love doing it.

So go and ponder at a philosophical level why you hate such things? Do they remind you of women being oppressed and thus you hate it? Or is it because of something else? Please do not answer them to me, rather to yourself.

Also do NOT be depended on people..ONLY on Allah. What i mean by that is the maid you are talking about. Do not get lazy, it is a dangerous thing. No maiden can clean your house to the degree as you like it to be cleaned except you yourself.

Put the recitation of Qur'an on and start cleaning. :D
Reply

Bhabha
08-03-2017, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
One of the Sunnah of Rasullah(saws) was taking Ghusl on Jumah. The question you and i need to ask ourselves, why? What are the "benefits" for example doing it? We can easily find 1 benefit, which is becoming clean. This and also enough other instances within Islam being clean is part of being a Muslim. The "problem" with you, is you look at such things because of your own will. (free will). I have in my first comment on this topic already mentioned, Muslims do NOT have a free will. Because they already know the Islamic way of life is the best way of life.

You dislike something (in general) not because you dislike it, but because your fitrah dislikes it..in other words ..disliked by Islam. In again other words, disliked by Allah. You "disliking" doing the dishes and cleaning the house, must have a deeper meaning. Or deeper problem. Find out what that is.

I live by myself and i have been taking care of myself since when i was 16. This is already like 15 years. I cook, clean, do the dishes..you name it. I at first HATED doing the dishes. However this was BEFORE Islam. Islam cured what i loved and what i hated. Now the things that i loved, i hate it and what i hated it i love doing it. What am i talking about? Fitrah. When your fitrah is restored you automatically do certain stuff and love doing it.

So go and ponder at a philosophical level why you hate such things? Do they remind you of women being oppressed and thus you hate it? Or is it because of something else? Please do not answer them to me, rather to yourself.

Also do NOT be depended on people..ONLY on Allah. What i mean by that is the maid you are talking about. Do not get lazy, it is a dangerous thing. No maiden can clean your house to the degree as you like it to be cleaned except you yourself.

Put the recitation of Qur'an on and start cleaning. :D
No I hate it because they make me tired and they hurt my gentle hands. I don't want callouses. I dislike it because I don't want to spend my life cleaning, do you not realize how ungrateful the kitchen is? Specially when there's a lot of people in a house? It is the most ungrateful part of the house and to be spending time there cleaning is an ETERNAL thing. For me, an eternal hell. So no thanks.

I am not a lazy person, just because I don't LOVE cleaning, doesn't mean I am lazy. I spend my time doing other things.
Reply

STN
08-03-2017, 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
Muslims are not being targeted by these beliefs. This is a general conflict in terms of things that are "feminine" and fit for women to work, etc.

Women wear pink
Women cook
Women clean
Women do this
Women do that

Why imposition on women?

Women are burdened, whether we like to admit it not. Makes no difference at all. The majority of times, if women choose to work they are also burdened with taking care of the household and if they don't choose to work they are also burdened with taking care of the household and have to ask for money for them to do anything, they are at the mercy of whether or not their husband is someone who will be generous to them or someone who will be stingy. This is seen in ANY religion and is not specific to any religion. I've had friends in all religions who have been either at the mercy of their husband to do anything outside or have had their own income for them to meet with friends, buy whatever they want without having to ask for money. In retrospect women who are taking care of a household should not have to ask for money at all, it should be freely given to them, available whenever they wish to use it and not a "reward" for taking care of a household, that's not right.

So if a woman has her own job, her own income, she is not at the mercy of her husband who could at any time divorce her.
Whoa...i find it incredibly attractive when a woman wears pink or pinkish red. It is a feminine color and so should only be wore by women. It just looks weird and "gay" on a guy especially if it's the only color or the prominent color.

Rest of the argument, i agree with some points and don't want to get into that. But you chose a very bad first example to make your point =). Do the feminists have something against women wearing pink now ? I fear they're going to have something against douches next.

I could be wrong but reading your posts, i get the feeling your mind has been poisoned by the campaign the feminists are running and you consider a housewife to be doing a degrading work and are not appreciated by their husbands, kids.

In this thread alone, women themselves are defending against that point of view and not men.

And don't think someone is stopping housewives from going to work and having their income. Even in a conservative country that i live in, my cousin got married to a guy who is rich himself but my cousin still works. She lives and goes to another far city for work and her husband doesn't have an issue with that. But if a woman is happy being a housewife then it's her choice.

You give the example of Khadijah (R.A) but she (R.A) was such an exemplary woman that she (R.A) was there to comfort Prophet Mohammad (SAWW) at every moment when any hardship befell on him (SAWW) from the Kufar, Quraish.
Reply

*charisma*
08-03-2017, 06:40 PM
Bhabha is an unmarried woman. She doesn't know what married life is except from the talks of unhappy women. She just doesn't want to get married and be expected to clean because she hates cleaning, and on top of that she despises men who have more than one wife even though it's clearly allowed in Islam. I think this is what the conversation here is summing up. Generalizing all men to be a certain way and picking and choosing what you like from the religion doesn't make sense. Like you can't just say "oh wives should have helpers and their men should help them because this is from the sunnah" and then speak badly about men who have multiple wives. There's a lot of double standards. If you don't like cleaning or household work, that's your issue. If you don't like the idea of multiple wives, that's your shortcoming. But many women can clean, cook, go to work, take care of their children and do not want a stranger around their house doing the things that they can do themselves. On top of that they are educated and do not feel restricted in their daily lives to do what they want. There are also women who are absolutely content being cowives. Serving others brings about a sense of pride and joy that you can't get from receiving. If a woman is complaining to you about the private affairs between her and her husband then that is a woman with a loose tongue. No one is forced to get married and furthermore no one is forced to get married to a man who prefers coming home to a clean home and cooked food. It would be nice to see more men knowing how to cook, clean, etc. but you can't pout and cry if you marry someone who doesn't do these after the fact. However, there's no doubt in my mind that if a wife needed help with anything the husband wouldn't hesitate to help her himself or bring help. Also, many cultures are quite family oriented, so unless the wife lives far away from her family, there are 20 members to come and help whenever necessary and theres no need to have a maid.
Reply

M.I.A.
08-03-2017, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
No I hate it because they make me tired and they hurt my gentle hands. I don't want callouses. I dislike it because I don't want to spend my life cleaning, do you not realize how ungrateful the kitchen is? Specially when there's a lot of people in a house? It is the most ungrateful part of the house and to be spending time there cleaning is an ETERNAL thing. For me, an eternal hell. So no thanks.

I am not a lazy person, just because I don't LOVE cleaning, doesn't mean I am lazy. I spend my time doing other things.
Lol.. thats the way of the world.. it is mostly unaware of its surroundings..and how it affects the things around it..

I would say it is not an ungrateful kitchen.

Its just a room..

That teaches you things.
Reply

Simple_Person
08-03-2017, 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
No I hate it because they make me tired and they hurt my gentle hands. I don't want callouses. I dislike it because I don't want to spend my life cleaning, do you not realize how ungrateful the kitchen is? Specially when there's a lot of people in a house? It is the most ungrateful part of the house and to be spending time there cleaning is an ETERNAL thing. For me, an eternal hell. So no thanks.

I am not a lazy person, just because I don't LOVE cleaning, doesn't mean I am lazy. I spend my time doing other things.
Your perspective is rather faulty. Being tired because of cleaning or having callouses is part of life. Is part of your hard work that will testify what kind of person you were. I HATE people who are "too proud" to make their hands dirty. That is arrogance and by default the fitrah of every person hates arrogance. In my eyes they look like those "princesses". Well i even more wish for them to clean toilets so they clean their arrogance also.

You clean for the sake of Allah, not for the sake of people. People will be very ungrateful, but later in life they will realize what kind of person you were and will be in debt to you in gratefulness. This life is a test how will you handle it. If you are married, it is your job to also teach your children to help out. If you are married and you have such a bad husband that does not help out in the household, it is YOUR OWN fault for marrying him. Because you have not looked deeply enough and taken the advice of Rasullah(saws) what kind of spouse you should marry. Also if you have a lot to clean, it means you have a lot of nuisance in your house. Make it simple. Through away what you do not need or just being a nuisance in your house. I have laminate floor and it is so simple to clean. The kitchen i have covered places with tin-foil so i can easily replace it when covered with oil..and thus clean it. When you have ONLY the essentials in house, suddenly cleaning becomes so easy.

I try to be more practicing Muslim each day and i can guarantee you that if i look at myself and other brothers that also want to be more practicing in their deen, well the last woman on earth i want to marry is a woman with your mentality. Because this rather shows that you give in to your disliking or do not wrestle with it to tackle it to the ground. This is just one thing if not one of the many things i could even argue although you might not say it.

Rasullah(saws) has advised us Muslim men to marry a woman that has put her deen on #1. With this direct advice, it is rather very broad advice.

- When there is little to no money, she will say indeed Allah will always provide.(Other women make their husband crazy ..and they NEVER get enough of money..always want more and more and more..keep on nagging..look at the neighbors have this and that..look at my sister has this and that..)
- Islam says study and gain beneficial knowledge. (other women will only gain knowledge (gossiping), watching useless tv-shows)
- Islam says keep yourself pretty for your husband. (other women after birth will stay fat, while it is MANDATORY for a woman to make herself beautiful for her husband..losing weight is also part of it.)
- Islam says 1/3 food, 1/3 water, 1/3 air (other women will keep on stuffing themselves with food and drinks..becoming fat.)
- Islam says do not commit excess in everything. (other women will waste food, water, money, talk too much and useless talk, be ungrateful)
- Islam says listen to your husband unless it is haram. (other women will head their own way, go outside when it is dark, have male "friends", etc.)
- Islam says be good to your children and give them a good upbringing. (other women will treat their kids bad, hit them, give them bad role model of themselves)
and MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE..
Reply

Bhabha
08-03-2017, 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by STN
Whoa...i find it incredibly attractive when a woman wears pink or pinkish red. It is a feminine color and so should only be wore by women. It just looks weird and "gay" on a guy especially if it's the only color or the prominent color.

Rest of the argument, i agree with some points and don't want to get into that. But you chose a very bad first example to make your point =). Do the feminists have something against women wearing pink now ? I fear they're going to have something against douches next.

I could be wrong but reading your posts, i get the feeling your mind has been poisoned by the campaign the feminists are running and you consider a housewife to be doing a degrading work and are not appreciated by their husbands, kids.

In this thread alone, women themselves are defending against that point of view and not men.

And don't think someone is stopping housewives from going to work and having their income. Even in a conservative country that i live in, my cousin got married to a guy who is rich himself but my cousin still works. She lives and goes to another far city for work and her husband doesn't have an issue with that. But if a woman is happy being a housewife then it's her choice.

You give the example of Khadijah (R.A) but she (R.A) was such an exemplary woman that she (R.A) was there to comfort Prophet Mohammad (SAWW) at every moment when any hardship befell on him (SAWW) from the Kufar, Quraish.
Lol, I don't have an issue with pink, my purse for today is a pink color (well more like a salmon kind of pink, I have pink... on a lot of things, but also other colors, etc). I have seen some guys wear pink in their business suits, it's a color that helps remind people of the prevalence of breast cancer and the impact contributions and studies have towards helping women who have suffered the disease.

However the point that I was trying to make is that certain colors shouldn't be "labeled" as for either gender. Society constructs items as being feminine or masculine, when colors are just.. colors, they don't have a special meaning or belong to a specific gender, they're all found in nature, in flowers, in animals, etc. Like pink blossoms, orchids, etc.

And no one is stopping wives from going to work and having their income, my mother is a dental surgeon and she owned restaurants, my father is a very wealthy man and my mother still wanted to work. She didn't go to dental school for nothing! She went to retreats in villages around the country providing assistance to people with free dental! She also did an amazing job raising my siblings and I, but she always had extra helping hands and she said that if she didn't have these helping hands, she would have not been able to enjoy the time with us.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by STN
Whoa...i find it incredibly attractive when a woman wears pink or pinkish red. It is a feminine color and so should only be wore by women. It just looks weird and "gay" on a guy especially if it's the only color or the prominent color.

Rest of the argument, i agree with some points and don't want to get into that. But you chose a very bad first example to make your point =). Do the feminists have something against women wearing pink now ? I fear they're going to have something against douches next.

I could be wrong but reading your posts, i get the feeling your mind has been poisoned by the campaign the feminists are running and you consider a housewife to be doing a degrading work and are not appreciated by their husbands, kids.

In this thread alone, women themselves are defending against that point of view and not men.

And don't think someone is stopping housewives from going to work and having their income. Even in a conservative country that i live in, my cousin got married to a guy who is rich himself but my cousin still works. She lives and goes to another far city for work and her husband doesn't have an issue with that. But if a woman is happy being a housewife then it's her choice.

You give the example of Khadijah (R.A) but she (R.A) was such an exemplary woman that she (R.A) was there to comfort Prophet Mohammad (SAWW) at every moment when any hardship befell on him (SAWW) from the Kufar, Quraish.
Lol, I don't have an issue with pink, my purse for today is a pink color (well more like a salmon kind of pink, I have pink... on a lot of things, but also other colors, etc). I have seen some guys wear pink in their business suits, it's a color that helps remind people of the prevalence of breast cancer and the impact contributions and studies have towards helping women who have suffered the disease.

However the point that I was trying to make is that certain colors shouldn't be "labeled" as for either gender. Society constructs items as being feminine or masculine, when colors are just.. colors, they don't have a special meaning or belong to a specific gender, they're all found in nature, in flowers, in animals, etc. Like pink blossoms, orchids, etc.

And no one is stopping wives from going to work and having their income, my mother is a dental surgeon and she owned restaurants, my father is a very wealthy man and my mother still wanted to work. She didn't go to dental school for nothing! She went to retreats in villages around the country providing assistance to people with free dental! She also did an amazing job raising my siblings and I, but she always had extra helping hands and she said that if she didn't have these helping hands, she would have not been able to enjoy the time with us.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Your perspective is rather faulty. Being tired because of cleaning or having callouses is part of life. Is part of your hard work that will testify what kind of person you were. I HATE people who are "too proud" to make their hands dirty. That is arrogance and by default the fitrah of every person hates arrogance. In my eyes they look like those "princesses". Well i even more wish for them to clean toilets so they clean their arrogance also.

You clean for the sake of Allah, not for the sake of people. People will be very ungrateful, but later in life they will realize what kind of person you were and will be in debt to you in gratefulness. This life is a test how will you handle it. If you are married, it is your job to also teach your children to help out. If you are married and you have such a bad husband that does not help out in the household, it is YOUR OWN fault for marrying him. Because you have not looked deeply enough and taken the advice of Rasullah(saws) what kind of spouse you should marry. Also if you have a lot to clean, it means you have a lot of nuisance in your house. Make it simple. Through away what you do not need or just being a nuisance in your house. I have laminate floor and it is so simple to clean. The kitchen i have covered places with tin-foil so i can easily replace it when covered with oil..and thus clean it. When you have ONLY the essentials in house, suddenly cleaning becomes so easy.

I try to be more practicing Muslim each day and i can guarantee you that if i look at myself and other brothers that also want to be more practicing in their deen, well the last woman on earth i want to marry is a woman with your mentality. Because this rather shows that you give in to your disliking or do not wrestle with it to tackle it to the ground. This is just one thing if not one of the many things i could even argue although you might not say it.

Rasullah(saws) has advised us Muslim men to marry a woman that has put her deen on #1. With this direct advice, it is rather very broad advice.

- When there is little to no money, she will say indeed Allah will always provide.(Other women make their husband crazy ..and they NEVER get enough of money..always want more and more and more..keep on nagging..look at the neighbors have this and that..look at my sister has this and that..)
- Islam says study and gain beneficial knowledge. (other women will only gain knowledge (gossiping), watching useless tv-shows)
- Islam says keep yourself pretty for your husband. (other women after birth will stay fat, while it is MANDATORY for a woman to make herself beautiful for her husband..losing weight is also part of it.)
- Islam says 1/3 food, 1/3 water, 1/3 air (other women will keep on stuffing themselves with food and drinks..becoming fat.)
- Islam says do not commit excess in everything. (other women will waste food, water, money, talk too much and useless talk, be ungrateful)
- Islam says listen to your husband unless it is haram. (other women will head their own way, go outside when it is dark, have male "friends", etc.)
- Islam says be good to your children and give them a good upbringing. (other women will treat their kids bad, hit them, give them bad role model of themselves)
and MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE..
Islam says to keep pretty for your husband..... and women get fat after birth? Perhaps they're too tired to WORK out to keep pretty for a husband if they have to take care of children and the house.
Reply

Simple_Person
08-03-2017, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
Bhabha is an unmarried woman. She doesn't know what married life is except from the talks of unhappy women. She just doesn't want to get married and be expected to clean because she hates cleaning, and on top of that she despises men who have more than one wife even though it's clearly allowed in Islam. I think this is what the conversation here is summing up. Generalizing all men to be a certain way and picking and choosing what you like from the religion doesn't make sense. Like you can't just say "oh wives should have helpers and their men should help them because this is from the sunnah" and then speak badly about men who have multiple wives. There's a lot of double standards. If you don't like cleaning or household work, that's your issue. If you don't like the idea of multiple wives, that's your shortcoming. But many women can clean, cook, go to work, take care of their children and do not want a stranger around their house doing the things that they can do themselves. On top of that they are educated and do not feel restricted in their daily lives to do what they want. There are also women who are absolutely content being cowives. Serving others brings about a sense of pride and joy that you can't get from receiving. If a woman is complaining to you about the private affairs between her and her husband then that is a woman with a loose tongue. No one is forced to get married and furthermore no one is forced to get married to a man who prefers coming home to a clean home and cooked food. It would be nice to see more men knowing how to cook, clean, etc. but you can't pout and cry if you marry someone who doesn't do these after the fact. However, there's no doubt in my mind that if a wife needed help with anything the husband wouldn't hesitate to help her himself or bring help. Also, many cultures are quite family oriented, so unless the wife lives far away from her family, there are 20 members to come and help whenever necessary and theres no need to have a maid.
If this all is the case, she has even a BIGGER problem. Because then she logically, rationally and reasonably has NOT concluded that Islam indeed is the truth. I and many (brothers & sisters) like me have indeed concluded based on logic, rationality and reason that Islam is the truth and THE ONLY truth. If something does not make sense, it is either i lack understanding or it is missing context/complete story.

So it also "confirms" in one of my previous comments that she has an issue of the heart.
Reply

Bhabha
08-03-2017, 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
Bhabha is an unmarried woman. She doesn't know what married life is except from the talks of unhappy women. She just doesn't want to get married and be expected to clean because she hates cleaning, and on top of that she despises men who have more than one wife even though it's clearly allowed in Islam. I think this is what the conversation here is summing up. Generalizing all men to be a certain way and picking and choosing what you like from the religion doesn't make sense. Like you can't just say "oh wives should have helpers and their men should help them because this is from the sunnah" and then speak badly about men who have multiple wives. There's a lot of double standards. If you don't like cleaning or household work, that's your issue. If you don't like the idea of multiple wives, that's your shortcoming. But many women can clean, cook, go to work, take care of their children and do not want a stranger around their house doing the things that they can do themselves. On top of that they are educated and do not feel restricted in their daily lives to do what they want. There are also women who are absolutely content being cowives. Serving others brings about a sense of pride and joy that you can't get from receiving. If a woman is complaining to you about the private affairs between her and her husband then that is a woman with a loose tongue. No one is forced to get married and furthermore no one is forced to get married to a man who prefers coming home to a clean home and cooked food. It would be nice to see more men knowing how to cook, clean, etc. but you can't pout and cry if you marry someone who doesn't do these after the fact. However, there's no doubt in my mind that if a wife needed help with anything the husband wouldn't hesitate to help her himself or bring help. Also, many cultures are quite family oriented, so unless the wife lives far away from her family, there are 20 members to come and help whenever necessary and theres no need to have a maid.
You're right, I don't want to get married because I don't see the necessity of it. If and when Allah sends someone my way to whom I feel a connection then perhaps, other than that no thanks. I also don't have the luxury of having Muslim parents who will help you choose a spouse or be involved in the process and a community who could care less what kind of man I marry as long as I get married.

Not saying all communities are like that, but the one in my city is like that and I don't have a necessity of finding a spouse who is just "anyone" for marriage, what for? So since I don't talk with guys, don't date and I am not frantically looking to get married to get out of a 'convert' situation. Alhamdellah my parents don't find me a burden because I am Muslim and they love me, wouldn't want me to move out.

I am financially independent, yet I live with my parents at home and are loved by my family. The only reason I'd want to get married is to have a child with whom I can share my life with, educate and love. But if I can adopt a child and provide someone a home and love, that would also suffice.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by *charisma*
Bhabha is an unmarried woman. She doesn't know what married life is except from the talks of unhappy women. She just doesn't want to get married and be expected to clean because she hates cleaning, and on top of that she despises men who have more than one wife even though it's clearly allowed in Islam. I think this is what the conversation here is summing up. Generalizing all men to be a certain way and picking and choosing what you like from the religion doesn't make sense. Like you can't just say "oh wives should have helpers and their men should help them because this is from the sunnah" and then speak badly about men who have multiple wives. There's a lot of double standards. If you don't like cleaning or household work, that's your issue. If you don't like the idea of multiple wives, that's your shortcoming. But many women can clean, cook, go to work, take care of their children and do not want a stranger around their house doing the things that they can do themselves. On top of that they are educated and do not feel restricted in their daily lives to do what they want. There are also women who are absolutely content being cowives. Serving others brings about a sense of pride and joy that you can't get from receiving. If a woman is complaining to you about the private affairs between her and her husband then that is a woman with a loose tongue. No one is forced to get married and furthermore no one is forced to get married to a man who prefers coming home to a clean home and cooked food. It would be nice to see more men knowing how to cook, clean, etc. but you can't pout and cry if you marry someone who doesn't do these after the fact. However, there's no doubt in my mind that if a wife needed help with anything the husband wouldn't hesitate to help her himself or bring help. Also, many cultures are quite family oriented, so unless the wife lives far away from her family, there are 20 members to come and help whenever necessary and theres no need to have a maid.
You're right, I don't want to get married because I don't see the necessity of it. If and when Allah sends someone my way to whom I feel a connection then perhaps, other than that no thanks. I also don't have the luxury of having Muslim parents who will help you choose a spouse or be involved in the process and a community who could care less what kind of man I marry as long as I get married.

Not saying all communities are like that, but the one in my city is like that and I don't have a necessity of finding a spouse who is just "anyone" for marriage, what for? So since I don't talk with guys, don't date and I am not frantically looking to get married to get out of a 'convert' situation. Alhamdellah my parents don't find me a burden because I am Muslim and they love me, wouldn't want me to move out.

I am financially independent, yet I live with my parents at home and are loved by my family. The only reason I'd want to get married is to have a child with whom I can share my life with, educate and love. But if I can adopt a child and provide someone a home and love, that would also suffice.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Simple_Person
If this all is the case, she has even a BIGGER problem. Because then she logically, rationally and reasonably has NOT concluded that Islam indeed is the truth. I and many (brothers & sisters) like me have indeed concluded based on logic, rationality and reason that Islam is the truth and THE ONLY truth. If something does not make sense, it is either i lack understanding or it is missing context/complete story.

So it also "confirms" in one of my previous comments that she has an issue of the heart.
When did I say Islam is not the truth? Are you required to get married? If you're not married, do you go to hell? Am I supposed to just go and get married to whomever? No. I don't want to get married, I haven't found someone to get married to and I'm not gong to bother wasting my time looking for a spouse, he will come or he will not come and that is in the hands of Allah.

Why get married if I don't need? ^o)
Reply

Simple_Person
08-03-2017, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha

Islam says to keep pretty for your husband..... and women get fat after birth? Perhaps they're too tired to WORK out to keep pretty for a husband if they have to take care of children and the house.
This shows how shallow minded you are when it comes to Islam i guess.

Let me give you a clear picture. I marry a wonderful wife that has put her deen on #1 like me. After she has given birth i have read about PTSD as Islam has made mandatory to gain knowledge. When she gives birth i take up on me to take more care of the baby, cleaning the diapers, feeding the bottle, cleaning the house (already was at it when she was pregnant). Giving her the time to recover and also work out for her self imagine and self confidence.

Slowly after some time she loses weight, good for her self image and off course also for me. She slowly takes helps out also more in the household etc. etc.

What is wrong with this picture? OOOOH i know..you thought men like me do not exist =_=!. Well i can guarantee you that there are brothers 1000x better than me in those things and better mentality than me. You are soo pessimistic about life..which is ALSO forbidden to be like that for Muslims.
Reply

Bhabha
08-03-2017, 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Simple_Person
This shows how shallow minded you are when it comes to Islam i guess.

Let me give you a clear picture. I marry a wonderful wife that has put her deen on #1 like me. After she has given birth i have read about PTSD as Islam has made mandatory to gain knowledge. When she gives birth i take up on me to take more care of the baby, cleaning the diapers, feeding the bottle, cleaning the house (already was at it when she was pregnant). Giving her the time to recover and also work out for her self imagine and self confidence.

Slowly after some time she loses weight, good for her self image and off course also for me. She slowly takes helps out also more in the household etc. etc.

What is wrong with this picture? OOOOH i know..you thought men like me do not exist =_=!. Well i can guarantee you that there are brothers 1000x better than me in those things and better mentality than me. You are soo pessimistic about life..which is ALSO forbidden to be like that for Muslims.

I'm not shallow minded when it comes to Islam. How Muslims behave and what Islam says are two different things.

Good for you that you are one of those men who do follow Islam and the teachings of the Prophet.

I'm not pessimistic about life, I have often been told I am TOO optimistic about life. Then again, you do not know me, so I don't assume you will know my take in life :)
Reply

*charisma*
08-03-2017, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
You're right, I don't want to get married because I don't see the necessity of it. If and when Allah sends someone my way to whom I feel a connection then perhaps, other than that no thanks. I also don't have the luxury of having Muslim parents who will help you choose a spouse or be involved in the process and a community who could care less what kind of man I marry as long as I get married.

Not saying all communities are like that, but the one in my city is like that and I don't have a necessity of finding a spouse who is just "anyone" for marriage, what for? So since I don't talk with guys, don't date and I am not frantically looking to get married to get out of a 'convert' situation. Alhamdellah my parents don't find me a burden because I am Muslim and they love me, wouldn't want me to move out.

I am financially independent, yet I live with my parents at home and are loved by my family. The only reason I'd want to get married is to have a child with whom I can share my life with, educate and love. But if I can adopt a child and provide someone a home and love, that would also suffice.
Great! Now that we've got that all settled, what's the point of this topic? Because you're bouncing from one topic to the next. You're not married nor interested nor experienced in it, and yet your issues lie with married couples and men who seem to have mostly disagreed with your views thus far due to huge generalizations or your very limited experiences. WHy are you complaining about private issues that do not apply to you?
Reply

Bhabha
08-03-2017, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
Great! Now that we've got that all settled, what's the point of this topic? Because you're bouncing from one topic to the next. You're not married nor interested nor experienced in it, and yet your issues lie with married couples and men who seem to have mostly disagreed with your views thus far due to huge generalizations or your very limited experiences. WHy are you complaining about private issues that do not apply to you?
Wait.

Issues have to APPLY to me, for me to care about it? Or for me to discuss it? ^o)
Reply

*charisma*
08-03-2017, 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
Wait.

Issues have to APPLY to me, for me to care about it? Or for me to discuss it? ^o)
Yes when it concerns **private** issues. If a woman's husband wants her to clean, if a wife is unhappy being a co-wife, whatever their issues are, that is their private issues and you will never know the full story or if what is made into an issue is actually an issue at all.

Also you're not discussing any specific issue but rather pushing very basic generalizations and hearsay. So if you are limited, or rather, nonexistant, in your experiences when it comes to marital affairs, why do you oppose the views of those who actually are much more experienced than you are??
Reply

STN
08-03-2017, 09:25 PM
I just want to say even if we get heated in debate, let's not question each other acceptance of religion. All of us are Muslims and difference of opinions doesn't make us less Muslims.

I do agree however with sister *charisma* that unless you are married, you can't form a valid opinion on it. It is like when i was a kid you know, i imagined when i would get a job and have money, i would do this and do that and the funny thing is now that i have a job, i don't feel like doing any of those things like it feels childish now. I loved cars and now that i own one and can get better ones, i hate riding in cars now and wish everything was at walking distance =).

So we bachelors don't really have a say in this, what you hate now you might love it later and vice versa. Depends on your life partner too i guess, if you like her (or him) you would do things to keep her happy.
Reply

keiv
08-04-2017, 02:20 AM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
---------
I'm not devaluing women who choose to stay at home and do housework. I am simply stating that the household duties are not just confined to the "womenfolk" and are not "feminine" work at all. To assume that only women and only feminine women do these household duties is also to devalue the work of women who choose to pursue careers outside of the conventional household, who choose to be scholars, be in politics, and do work that is generally seen and painted as "masculine". We have to get out of the assumptions that women belong in specific places, they don't. Women can choose to pursue whatever it is that they wish to pursue as long as it does not in any way violate Islamic teachings.

Obviously neither women or men should pursue fields where their faith and values are in question, I.e industries that deal with haram.

However it seems that someone in this thread assumes that I have assumptions about them, when the general "you" is meant to be a general sentence aimed at everyone who sees the thread.

I for one will not impose on my girls the duty of cleaning after the house without equally imposing this duty and obligation to my boys. That to me is unfair. I don't want the husband of my girls to treat them as though they just belong in the kitchen or cleaning and I don't want the wives of my sons to be under the assumption that they will be doing the housework. It is a shared responsibility and let's face it, there is no "single" person economy anymore for people to say that it is the man who will earn the income and the wife should be grateful she is not working (if she is at home). I say that if the wife stays at home and does the household duties, it is the husband who should be grateful that she is doing MORE work that is unrecognized and is therefore often undervalued.

I never meant to sound like I was undervaluing a woman who chooses to do work inside the house. Just the opposite, I don't think it is fair that this is just seen as a woman's place and her husbands financial income is seen to be superior and required for sustenance.

Despite this I have seen countless of times that many women who devote themselves to doing things out of love for their husbands, taking care of children, cooking, cleaning, being intimate with them are not held with high regard when the husband decided to seek a second, third or even fourth wife. Is there no shame?

Such as the following scenario:

Husband comes home and the house is not clean, there is not food on the table, etc.

He says to his wife "Why is the house not clean? You were home all day"

Her response "Why aren't we rich? You work all day"

----

As such the issue to consider is that people undervalue the actual work performed by women, who integrate all of the following individual duties: nanny (taking care of the child), maid (cleaning), cook (cooking). Etc. She has to be so many positions that it is unfair to ask this of a woman without providing help. As far as I know and according to sharia, the wife is not obligated to perform all of these tasks. Her only obligation is not to go outside of the house, not to allow strangers in her husbands house and therefore care for his property and to be intimate with her husband. Her husband has to assist her in cooking, cleaning and taking care of the kids, but she is not obligated.

Sometimes they seek divorce and after having been faithful wives, dedicated, etc. Those who did not work are left with literally nothing. They have to go back to their families or seek a second marriage because they do not have the skills, experience or sometimes education (because they chose to stay at home to care for their children) and are therefore unable to provide for themselves.


If I came home from working all day and the house was dirty and there was no food, the first thing I'd ask is "what exactly did you do all day?"
Reply

Simple_Person
08-04-2017, 06:48 AM
Originally Posted by Bhabha
I'm not shallow minded when it comes to Islam. How Muslims behave and what Islam says are two different things.

Good for you that you are one of those men who do follow Islam and the teachings of the Prophet.

I'm not pessimistic about life, I have often been told I am TOO optimistic about life. Then again, you do not know me, so I don't assume you will know my take in life :)
Being optimistic is also not looking at the bad in life. What I mean by this I'd this whole topic that you were bothered about the whole culture stuff with women being treated like garbage.

As Muslims/strangers we have nothing to do with culture and their habits. Majority of women walking outside is naked but covered. That is their life and I try to abstain as much as possible from going outside if it is not necessary. Or go place where such women are not there. But you do not hear me talk about it. As it has nothing to do with me . When suddenly somebody tries to depict Islamic values as being oppresive against women that is when my mouth starts opening and me using such examples of other women and how men look at them.

So I would advice you..think ..and think deeply about Islamic values and why this and why that.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Bhabha
When did I say Islam is not the truth? Are you required to get married? If you're not married, do you go to hell? Am I supposed to just go and get married to whomever? No. I don't want to get married, I haven't found someone to get married to and I'm not gong to bother wasting my time looking for a spouse, he will come or he will not come and that is in the hands of Allah.

Why get married if I don't need? ^o)
When you disagree with certain actions in Islam is rather sign of you not really having seeing Islam as the truth and only truth. You must agree to EVERYTHING that Islam says is permissible or not permissible. It doesn't mean that you are able to do the same.

For example I can marry up to 4 wives. However I KNOW myself and my limits. I can with my hands down say I am not able to do justice towards all my wives if I would marry multiple wives. We Kurds have a typical habit of when we love our spouse we love her with all our heart. This is also a big problem as often especially these day Kurdish women abuse this character trait of their husbands as they just LOVE money.

There is a Hadith that Rasullah (saws) has said the ones that do not marry do not belong to my Ummah.

If I loom at my own life still being unmarried. On certain categories I cannot provide a wife what she deserves. So in the mean time I try to fix issue and fix my character/clean my heart while at it. When I have done all of it Allah in'sha'Allah will put a spouse on my path.

You say you have found no spouse to get married but on the other hand you say you do not want to get married.

I have no experience in married life, however I open my eyes and my ears and try to look at others and what they have experienced and ask them certain things etc.

I would LOVE to also choose a life without marriage to be frank because women of today are rubbish by majority. However about the Hadith that Rasullah ( saws ) has said those that do not want to get married do not belong to my Ummah I abstain from heading my own way rather be patient and work my self. And try to find a sister to marry that is not rubbish like the majority.
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sister herb
08-04-2017, 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by keiv
If I came home from working all day and the house was dirty and there was no food, the first thing I'd ask is "what exactly did you do all day?"
And what if she answers: "I had a day off"? ;D

Unfortunately when being a housewife, you might never has day off.
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Simple_Person
08-04-2017, 07:20 AM
Originally Posted by sister herb
And what if she answers: "I had a day off"? ;D

Unfortunately when being a housewife, you might never has day off.
To be VERY honest, as a guy who cleans, cooks, washing of clothes, does the dishes etc, i have noticed that when you keep up the work, things do not have to take so long to do. When you start have children i guess things could get more chaotic, however children can help you later on with the household. During weekends husband can do half of the household chores. Which means nobody has a day of..in other words everybody is equally tired.

Brothers have to have rather this attitude to WANT to clean. If you already start saying ..i do not want to clean or i hate to clean..well i can tell you that no matter if husband does the household chores for like 80% of everything and has a full time job you will notice that the spouse that does 20% still does a lousy job. Or the other way around.

However to have brothers that want to help their wives, you sisters are at fault..TEACH YOUR BOYS that mentality to want to clean as it is part of the fitrah to be clean.
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sister herb
08-04-2017, 08:41 AM
You are right - we women have to teach all our children equally to make household works. This might be the only way to change old ways to think. Women can also choose such husbands whose opinions of the household works is not so traditional as children learn they opnions from the both parents.
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keiv
08-04-2017, 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by sister herb
And what if she answers: "I had a day off"? ;D

Unfortunately when being a housewife, you might never has day off.
I completely understand that. I, for one, don't believe "cleaning and cooking" to be a feminine thing that the OP says people here are claiming. I come from a fairly large size family and I've seen what my mom has done. At the same time, I've seen what my dad has done as well. Working all day then having to come home and work on the car, yard work, fixing the house, and so on. We were never "rich" because the money went to pay for food, house bills, buying stuff for the kids and so on. Both of them worked just as hard as the other. I never saw my dad tell my mom to go cover for him at work or to make repairs on the house nor have I seen my mom ask my dad to clean the house or to go cook for the family. It doesn't mean that he didn't but, they both knew how hard the other worked.

At times, having two parents who are busy like this is just as bad as raising a family as a single parent in my opinion. In the end, the kids suffer because the parents are usually stressed out and "family time" becomes reduced. There has to be a moment when families, parents specifically, take control of their lives and find a balance between work and personal time when it comes to raising a family.
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Simple_Person
08-04-2017, 09:49 AM
Originally Posted by sister herb
You are right - we women have to teach all our children equally to make household works. This might be the only way to change old ways to think. Women can also choose such husbands whose opinions of the household works is not so traditional as children learn they opnions from the both parents.
It is not only household work, but also being clean in general. For example i try to learn from others what might be the reason for failed marriages. You know what i learned? The little things make you hate your spouse and even slowly disliking to have intimacy with ones spouse. Having a bad breath, or one smells because not having take a shower or any other LITTLE thing. This reminded me sub'han'Allah of the advice of Rasullah(saws).

He was with one sahaba and when they entered Medina, he advised his companion to not go immediately to home. Rather wait until the notifier of Medina made clear that the caravan has arrived to the people of Medina so his spouse could clean herself and make herself ready for her husband to arrive.

To be servant of Allah, one has to be servant of their spouse. Wife being servant of her husband and husband being servant of his wife. If we look through the perspective of Islam this even makes sense. Allah is ALWAYS on #1. On the Day of Judgement you first are asked about your bond with Allah, after that comes the rights of people upon you. Your spouse is one of them. After the rights of the people comes everything else (free time and such).

So if one is NOT praying, one has to be a servant of their spouse. A servant by definition is one who is ready at all times to serve. However again the ONLY thing that surpasses this definition is when you being a servant of Allah, which both of the spouses off course are. A servant does not sit idle on the side, but rather proactively does things. Goes and does the dishes for example, makes sure he/she is looking beautiful and representing (look at butlers for example) or even us when we pray, we have to be clean in clean clothes because we are standing before Allah.

Never ask for your rights, rather proactively give the rights of your spouse. If your spouse has an ounce of imaan left, they will see that and will also actively give you your right. If not, for sure you have married a wrong spouse ..in other words not followed the advice of Rasullah(saws) what spouse to marry.

My own brother for example when he eats he sits back down. I later on learned why he does that, because my mother and sister constantly do not want him to help them or when he does help, they only put him down with words which takes away somebodies motivation. He said once that i believe they were not at home so he ate something and did the dishes. Later on seeing my sister AGAIN washing the same dishes. One could say well it could be that they were dirty, but even i noticed they would NOT let me clean. Maybe OCD ..i don't know. All i know is that culture is DEEP in their mind PREVENTING men even to help them. I am glad to know such women exist, because i will stay far away from such women that do not want me to help them in household chores.

Such women will only feel a burnout sooner or later. Because they refuse you as a male to help them and Allah gives health and takes away health. When they are sick still wanting to clean all on their own, but when children are also born, that comes with it...so chaos upon chaos. Knowing women, they will still blame you for all the chaos..typical illogical female mentality. When this happens, a guy can take just enough injustice being blamed for something he is free of blame. Which again makes it.. a failed marriage, because she points at you for her bad health or the chaos and you as a male being all mad because you rather are free from blame. It starts from such small things.
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sister herb
08-04-2017, 09:51 AM
To keiv:

That´s quite same what my parents have lived. They got only girls (I and my sister) so they hadn´t change to teach to the next generation´s boys to do same or different when it goes to the household works of course. We sisters learnt to cook, clean, repair cars (well, I am not good with it but my sister is) and repair the house. So, some changed happened eventually. :D
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Umm♥Layth
08-04-2017, 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by keiv
I completely understand that. I, for one, don't believe "cleaning and cooking" to be a feminine thing that the OP says people here are claiming.
I'm the one that referred to it as a feminine art. I didn't say it was a feminine duty, they are very different things. In this world EVERYTHING is in pairs if you notice. There are masculine actions, feminine actions. Masculine words, feminine words, colors, decor, animals and even plants are masculine and feminine.

There are women who have more masculine feature or personality traits and there are men who have more feminine features and personality traits. Nothing to do with sexuality, it is just how they are. I am personally a very dominant female :) and my mannerism could be at times a bit masculine. I am not the mary poppins softly spoken type and I make my kids take their medicine without sugar. LOL. pun...pun.

Anyway, now that I explained that, I hope you can start to understand what I meant by calling domestic work feminine. The female is generally more detailed in everything she does by her very nature. If you have raised kids of both genders you'll see this is part of a girls fitra. She is created to bare children (nobody can deny the womb!) and caring for an infant takes a strong intuition and attention to very fine detail. Women generally have an incredible amount of patience and tolerance and most importantly, compassion. This is natural to the female and for the male, he has to work on developing these "features".

Women are very different from men in their nature and each gender can develop qualities that are more masculine or feminine. It is called balancing out one's character. So learning how to clean and do domestic work comes much easier to the woman due to her gifts and capabilities, but can also be learned by a man and if he can master these things, his character will be much more well rounded :) insha'Allah. Note: I'm not saying women are born shining pots fresh out the womb, I am saying it is more natural to them to learn the domestic arts. Some women downright refuse to learn and that's their prerogative.

I will have to come by and share my story as a former maid. I was a maid for years to get through school and I was professionally trained. Trust me when I tell you it is an art. When people think of cleaning, they think of sweeping, mopping, dishes and laundry. It is much much more than that and attention to detail is key. Nobody thinks of how to do it appropriately, efficiency, detailing, wiping and shining and most importantly, maintenance. Maintenance is the most important part as this what will make daily chores easy or difficult. One can maintain a house easily with just 15-30 mins per day.

and before I'm accused of generalizing, I will say that I'm giving an extremely brief summary of what I'm trying to get accross :) just to put the idea out there.

Jumah Mubarak everyone!
Reply

sister herb
08-04-2017, 11:58 AM
Well sister, here is no need to accuse you about generalization. We are different and we have different opinions. We can disagree and still keep this discussion peaceful.

*hides the hammer behind her back*
Reply

Abz2000
08-04-2017, 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by Umm♥Layth
I'm the one that referred to it as a feminine art. I didn't say it was a feminine duty, they are very different things. In this world EVERYTHING is in pairs if you notice. There are masculine actions, feminine actions. Masculine words, feminine words, colors, decor, animals and even plants are masculine and feminine.

There are women who have more masculine feature or personality traits and there are men who have more feminine features and personality traits. Nothing to do with sexuality, it is just how they are. I am personally a very dominant female :) and my mannerism could be at times a bit masculine. I am not the mary poppins softly spoken type and I make my kids take their medicine without sugar. LOL. pun...pun.

Anyway, now that I explained that, I hope you can start to understand what I meant by calling domestic work feminine. The female is generally more detailed in everything she does by her very nature. If you have raised kids of both genders you'll see this is part of a girls fitra. She is created to bare children (nobody can deny the womb!) and caring for an infant takes a strong intuition and attention to very fine detail. Women generally have an incredible amount of patience and tolerance and most importantly, compassion. This is natural to the female and for the male, he has to work on developing these "features".

Women are very different from men in their nature and each gender can develop qualities that are more masculine or feminine. It is called balancing out one's character. So learning how to clean and do domestic work comes much easier to the woman due to her gifts and capabilities, but can also be learned by a man and if he can master these things, his character will be much more well rounded :) insha'Allah. Note: I'm not saying women are born shining pots fresh out the womb, I am saying it is more natural to them to learn the domestic arts. Some women downright refuse to learn and that's their prerogative.

I will have to come by and share my story as a former maid. I was a maid for years to get through school and I was professionally trained. Trust me when I tell you it is an art. When people think of cleaning, they think of sweeping, mopping, dishes and laundry. It is much much more than that and attention to detail is key. Nobody thinks of how to do it appropriately, efficiency, detailing, wiping and shining and most importantly, maintenance. Maintenance is the most important part as this what will make daily chores easy or difficult. One can maintain a house easily with just 15-30 mins per day.

and before I'm accused of generalizing, I will say that I'm giving an extremely brief summary of what I'm trying to get accross :) just to put the idea out there.

Jumah Mubarak everyone!
Wa iyyaaki

an interesting observation, also sheds light on the fact that men are generally better at finding their bearings and making a wild choice in a certain direction when driving, whereas women are generally better at remembering the route, men generally pay les attention to their appearance than women, spend less time in front of the mirror, andaregenerally messy in comparison to women.
Women Also have less vehicle accidents than men. Boys are unruly in class whereas girls pay attention.
i think that men are generally better at wider comprehension and risky calculations whereas women are better at following rules, understanding the status quo and working and trying to make things work within means and set rules.

and i think there is a reason why men are given the responsibility and leadership role in a family.
this is not in a competitive way since htey are both essential parts of a team, but in terms of harmony and stability.
watch any family outside on holiday or pilgrimage in any unknown land full of different customs to thosdewith which they are normally accustomed.
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Abz2000
08-04-2017, 01:45 PM
Although some of this research is inevitably subjective to many factors, including self interest, competition, prejudice, political "correctness", economic factors, etc, there are still observations and information worthy of absorbing and processing:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_...n_intelligence
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MuslimInshallah
08-04-2017, 03:26 PM
Assalaamu alaikum everyone,

(smile) My! This has been an active thread! (smile) Obviously, it touches a nerve. So thank you Bhabha for starting this. While there is a fair level of disagreement with your position on this Forum, yours is, nonetheless, the dominant paradigm in our Canadian society, and increasingly the dominant one in the world at large, it seems to me. And therefore, it is one we should examine, I think.

(seriously) But the question that really keeps coming back to me is why? Why is there all this emphasis on "helping" women?

As Umm Layth pointed out, when a woman really does need help, it's pretty hard to find... and the laws do not seem to protect potentially vulnerable women; quite the contrary. I know this from personal experience here in Canada. It seems that the "help" is restricted to convincing women to get out and earn a pay check.

Why?

Could it be that all that canning and preserving, chicken-raising, children-raising, cooking, sewing, garden-growing... the traditional (in Canada, at least) womanly arts... could it be that these things helped us be more independent? As individuals, families and even communities? Could it be that this work was not taxable? Could it be that large corporations couldn't make huge profits off this work?

(smile) I'm afraid I disagree with you Anatolian. I do not think that men are the problem. I do not believe in the war of the sexes at all. But I do believe that our modern social and economic industrial set-up needs us to be isolated and helpless consumers.

(mildly) The problem is not only restricted to women. Men have also lost their traditional arts. How many men know basic carpentry these days? Could build a house? Could make the implements needed for the home? Would know how to deal with large livestock?

(smile) The exact roles that men and women play in each society may vary, but in each society, there has been a division of labour within the family between the genders, a division that respected the particularities and necessities of that particular place and time. And this labour was vital for the functioning of the family. Both men and women had power within this relationship, and either one without the other was weak and vulnerable.

In our post-industrial world, the first to lose their power were the men. Their skilled trades were were replaced with factory work. Did they go along with this meekly? No. They tried to defend themselves from what they could see would be disastrous for their livelihoods and their families. (mildly) We laugh at them now and call them "luddites"... but they were correct. In Britain, I know people resisted, and in Austria... and I am very sure in every society this industrial machine set foot, people resisted. But the machine won, every time.

And after the men were conquered... it was time to "liberate" the women. And yes, the unbalancing of the roles within the family when the men lost their independence caused trouble for the women and children, too. And women were suffering. But is the solution to this suffering to subtly force women into corporate slavehood, too?

(smile) I do understand Bhabha that you have your own situation and experience. And I respect that. (mildly) But I wonder how much of the opinion you hold is a result of the pervasive dominant view in the corporate-dominated technological Canadian society in which we both live?


May God, the Bestower, Guide us all to ever-deeper knowledge and wisdom.
Reply

Junon
08-05-2017, 07:53 PM
Salaam

Good debate, having lived in a western society steeped in this ideology I can safely say we dont need it. Many western men are questioning (privately if not publicly) a lot of feminist propoganda and rejecting it.

Cant say this ideology hasnt had success, its played its part in destroying the family system in the UK.

https://www.islamicboard.com/family-amp-society/134320450-fathers-day-country-fatherhood-dying.html

We have our faith, our customs and culture. We have enough problems as it is, we dont need this divisive ideology poisioning the relations between men and woman.
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