Turkish-Kurdish Conflict

[anatolian]

(OFFTOPIC)


http://ekurd.net/turkish-kurdistan-vote-war-2017-08-24

Can you now understand how Turks bring up the whole PKK debate as..."We hate PKK, but we don't hate Kurds". Now is my logical, rational and reasonable question..what HAS Barzani (PDK) to do with PKK? They hate one another as in the past they even have fought against each other. However when i hear such things from such Turks, this is rather a wake up call to me that it has NOTHING to do with PKK, but they HATE Kurds. Which automatically includes me as i am a Kurd. The Turks fight for the Turkmen in Kirkuk, however when Kurds say what about Kurds in modern day south-east Turkey to Turks..then suddenly Kurds must keep their mouth shut. Isn't this hypocrisy? Isn't this a clear sign that these people have absolutely NOTHING to do with Islam and killing such people that show such level of hypocrisy is rather permissible according Islamic view. That is why even if a Kurd fighting along side PKK dies at the hands of the Turkish soldier, to me he is rather a martyr.

I do not look at ooh that one is a "Muslim" and that one is a "non-Muslim". I see two groups. One is fighting oppression according to Islamic perspective and the other is oppressing. No need to bring out the whole ..ooh but he is a Muslim and that other guy isn't. If somebody is a Muslim, he MUST abide by Islamic rulings, there is no excuse to oppress a certain people..be it Muslim or non-Muslim.

Many people THINK that just because they say i am a Muslim, that they automatically will end up in paradise. While there are for example clear hadith that say if one has pride or arrogance the size of a mustard seed he will not enter paradise. If one even thinks about this of having arrogance/pride the size of a mustard seed ...well iblies also believes in Allah, but has arrogance and pride. We all know he will end up in hell fire and will not enter paradise whatsoever.

EDIT: ..yeah..what happened to ..ooh we hate PKK? You see these guys they say we are Muslims, but their actions show something else. Another confirmation they hate Kurds and PKK is just the excuse.

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/2...distan-turkey/

I have told you several times before what your problem is. You are generalizing people. There is a general "Turks" image in your eyes and you refer to it as "they/them" and unfortunately what you have is an illusionary image. Turk is the name of a race and nation and in wider extend it refers to all Turkic people from Uyghuristan to Turkey but not only Turkish people of Turkey and "we" differ a lot in ideology, philosophy and in several other aspects of life. As for Turkish people of Turkey that makes approximately %75 of Turkey's total population, there are people who are more nationalist, more racist, more Islamist, more communist, more Kemalist, more westernist, more humanist, more universalist etc. people compared to some others. This is a diverse people. So, I simply suggest you to wipe out that "Turks" image from your mind.

I want to give a short history lecture before coming to the current problem. Turks and Kurds have always been allies in Anatolia since Turks started to migrate to the region after the battle of Manzikert. Even Kurds took the side of Turks (Seljuks) against the Byzantines in this battle. And Turks have always given the reward of this favour. Since both were Muslims. Of course some revolts occured against the rulers but this cannot be explained with nationalist motives since several Turks revolted against the Ottoman Empire through out history as well. However, the first nationallist and also Islamist motivational Kurdish rebelion against Turks occured just after the Turkish independace war in 1922. The British supported Kurdish Sheikh Said revolted against the new State to create another Kurdish Islamic state in South Eastern Anatolia. That was obviously plotted by the British. Brits have long been aware of the stateless Kurds and wanted to use them to create a satelite state in the mid of mid-east to control this oil-rich region. The revolt was harshly supressed.

After that, I agree some racist governments culturally and some times physically oppressed Kurds. Most especially the military government after the 1980 coup oppressed Kurds a lot. But again we must see the grater map. PKK was found in 1977, before the coup. You must also knwo that Abdullah Öcalan was the leader of "ülkücüler/idealists" an extreme Turkish nationalist movement in the university years in early 70s. Öcalan's mother was Turk as he says. He disappears for a while and turns back with "PKK!". Also you must know that the 1980 coup was plotted by CIA. After the withdrawal of the British empire from the mid-east America had taken the same "mission". At first it seems contradictory for America to create a communist group like PKK but if you are a good "chess master" sometimes you must give a small pawn for the ultimate victory. All those so called Kurdish rebels, in fact terrorists ,of mid-east ,PKK, PJAK, YPG, Peshmerga etc., were created and/or are supported by America for the same target. Controlling the middle east from it's centre.

PKK may have fought with Peshmerga because of a power conflict. They have been usually allies. Both Barzani and Talabani confesses that they had given support to PKK several times in some records. PKK are one of the worst and most cruel terrorist groups of all times. They did not target only the Turkish military but also civilian people including Turks and Kurds. They killed teachers considering them the representatives of "Turkish faicism". They killed Kurds and even their children in front of them who opposed PKK. They are suicide bombing in the middle of crowds in the cities. I am sure you are well aware of these atrocities of PKK and still say what they do can be Islamically justified. Either I don't know anything about Islam or you don't. There is not a third option. We will go on to slay these terrorists. If you consider them martyr thats your problem. And I can assure you at least half of Turkish Kurds oppose PKK and all seperatism. We can uderstand this even from the vote ratio of HDP. They had around %10 in the last elections but the total ethnic Kurdish population in Turkey is estimated around %20-22 and we cant even say all Kurds voting HDP are pro-PKK.

I see only one option for the peace. Each side must recognize their faults. The racist Turks will give up racism and terrorist Kurds will give up terrorism. That's it.

[Simple_Person]

I have told you several times before what your problem is. You are generalizing people. There is a general "Turks" image in your eyes and you refer to it as "they/them" and unfortunately what you have is an illusionary image. Turk is the name of a race and nation and in wider extend it refers to all Turkic people from Uyghuristan to Turkey but not only Turkish people of Turkey and "we" differ a lot in ideology, philosophy and in several other aspects of life. As for Turkish people of Turkey that makes approximately %75 of Turkey's total population, there are people who are more nationalist, more racist, more Islamist, more communist, more Kemalist, more westernist, more humanist, more universalist etc. people compared to some others. This is a diverse people. So, I simply suggest you to wipe out that "Turks" image from your mind.

I want to give a short history lecture before coming to the current problem. Turks and Kurds have always been allies in Anatolia since Turks started to migrate to the region after the battle of Manzikert. Even Kurds took the side of Turks (Seljuks) against the Byzantines in this battle. And Turks have always given the reward of this favour. Since both were Muslims. Of course some revolts occured against the rulers but this cannot be explained with nationalist motives since several Turks revolted against the Ottoman Empire through out history as well. However, the first nationallist and also Islamist motivational Kurdish rebelion against Turks occured just after the Turkish independace war in 1922. The British supported Kurdish Sheikh Said revolted against the new State to create another Kurdish Islamic state in South Eastern Anatolia. That was obviously plotted by the British. Brits have long been aware of the stateless Kurds and wanted to use them to create a satelite state in the mid of mid-east to control this oil-rich region. The revolt was harshly supressed.

After that, I agree some racist governments culturally and some times physically oppressed Kurds. Most especially the military government after the 1980 coup oppressed Kurds a lot. But again we must see the grater map. PKK was found in 1977, before the coup. You must also knwo that Abdullah Öcalan was the leader of "ülkücüler/idealists" an extreme Turkish nationalist movement in the university years in early 70s. Öcalan's mother was Turk as he says. He disappears for a while and turns back with "PKK!". Also you must know that the 1980 coup was plotted by CIA. After the withdrawal of the British empire from the mid-east America had taken the same "mission". At first it seems contradictory for America to create a communist group like PKK but if you are a good "chess master" sometimes you must give a small pawn for the ultimate victory. All those so called Kurdish rebels, in fact terrorists ,of mid-east ,PKK, PJAK, YPG, Peshmerga etc., were created and/or are supported by America for the same target. Controlling the middle east from it's centre.

PKK may have fought with Peshmerga because of a power conflict. They have been usually allies. Both Barzani and Talabani confesses that they had given support to PKK several times in some records. PKK are one of the worst and most cruel terrorist groups of all times. They did not target only the Turkish military but also civilian people including Turks and Kurds. They killed teachers considering them the representatives of "Turkish faicism". They killed Kurds and even their children in front of them who opposed PKK. They are suicide bombing in the middle of crowds in the cities. I am sure you are well aware of these atrocities of PKK and still say what they do can be Islamically justified. Either I don't know anything about Islam or you don't. There is not a third option. We will go on to slay these terrorists. If you consider them martyr thats your problem. And I can assure you at least half of Turkish Kurds oppose PKK and all seperatism. We can uderstand this even from the vote ratio of HDP. They had around %10 in the last elections but the total ethnic Kurdish population in Turkey is estimated around %20-22 and we cant even say all Kurds voting HDP are pro-PKK.

I see only one option for the peace. Each side must recognize their faults. The racist Turks will give up racism and terrorist Kurds will give up terrorism. That's it.

There is a solution to all of this. Give a referendum to all the Kurds (ONLY the Kurds) and make them decide what they want to do. Do they want a independent Kurdistan or stick with Turkey, this simple solution is not given by Turkey. This rather indicates that Turks (Government) KNOW if they would do that there is a very high chance majority would vote independence. PKK has done their fair share of injustice, nobody is denying that. However suddenly they are terrorist, but Turkish state also done their fair of injustice..(collateral damage), but also killing people who speak out about the Kurdish issue being killed by MIT..is that suddenly not be branded as terrorist?..but racist..look at your mentality. Slowly comes up what you try to hide. Also Ocalan being from that group you say he was, based on what evidence..Turkish sources?.please..dude you think Turkish state would tell you the truth so easily? Also about Mustafa Kemal he has done EVERYTHING that is in the favor for the state of Israel to come in to existence, but this is off course not talked about by Turks. Splitting everything up, trying to destroy what Ottomans stood for or tried at least.

CIA this and western powers that. Lets say for the sake of argument i agree with everything you say. How come Turkey is still part of NATO then? Those same power have done those evil things against the Turks yet Turks show opportunistic lifestyle. In other words acting like a prostitute and undressing them so somebody could do their business today and somebody else tomorrow. No principles at all.

I am also talking about modern day Turkey not other Turks. You know this, but somehow you want beat around the bush.

About PKK, till this day i am more then sure that many MIT agents are with PKK.

Turkish Turks as you also said before that they are either one or the other way nationalistic. That is my whole problem with but now you are saying i am generalizing =_=!. If generalizing is me directing my speech towards every nationalistic Turk there is, then i fully agree with you that i am "generalizing". You say you are Muslim, but tend rather lean towards nationalism. Why i bite on this and don't let it go, is rather when i smell hypocrisy i tend to want to do everything in my ability to show the hypocrisy to others. Simply by giving evidence and logical questions that they can conclude for themselves if it is true or not.

Enjoy your Turkey while it lasts, if there is something that i most am disgusted by are not the people that do not know and because of ignorance do and say things that are rather towards injustice, what i am disgusted by is people who do know and when it is talked about certain things and suddenly they wish something for themselves, but not for others. Your comment is FULL of it. Typical behavior of iblies. Don't wish something for others, but only wish it for yourself. Allah is my witness i have told you everything in my ability. If you die in this mentality and according to Islam without a doubt is oppression, i will with all be testifying against you on the Day of Judgement.

[Mustafa16]

It should be worth noting that the United Nations (Birlesmis Milletler) is conducting an investigation into the treatment of Kurds in the Southeast, and many nations have accused Turkey of war crimes and crimes against humanity, and the UN has accused the Turkish government of "massive destruction, killings, and numerous other human rights violations." Entire cities have been destroyed, and many people have been tortured or killed in the bombings or shootings,

[Simple_Person]

It should be worth noting that the United Nations (Birlesmis Milletler) is conducting an investigation into the treatment of Kurds in the Southeast, and many nations have accused Turkey of war crimes and crimes against humanity, and the UN has accused the Turkish government of "massive destruction, killings, and numerous other human rights violations." Entire cities have been destroyed, and many people have been tortured or killed in the bombings or shootings,

Bro, you get the whole point wrong. I have said earlier that everything nonsense. This "Freedom" , " democracy" , "freedom of speech", "human rights"..etc etc.

To make it less abstract. In south Kurdistan (modern day Northern Iraq) The Kurds say they want to have a vote for independence. According to international law this is their right to have such a vote and according to human rights it is also their right to choose their destiny.

Now what is it then?..US says we do not support this independence vote. .EU says we do not support this independence vote..Turkey just in April with whole referendum about presidential vote..is also saying we do not support independence vote. UN says also we do not support independence vote.

Now every country that SHOUTS from roof tops about "democracy", "human rights", "freedom of this and that"..suddenly when some choice is needed to be made then everything they shout has suddenly become not important. This has proven two points at least what i have been saying for some time.

Democracy and freedom of this and that and human rights is biggest bull****. The second thing is UN is the biggest mafia group out there. It is all biggest pile of cr**. Everything they say is cr*p. Do not listen to them and do not work with them...all liars no principles no dignity no nothing of any value.

This even you do not have to believe me. The reality itself is proving itself. Look at Trump right now. There is a BIG gap now between left and right in US..what happened to democracy where the majority to certain rules wins and decides what is gonna happen. Well it shows that as long as the mindset is not the same like a big group suddenly you should go against this democracy and freedom of speech..in other words biggest lie there is. Brexit another example majority has decided it..and the small group is now trying to postpone it the best they can. UN itself is collapsing. The UN was setup so countries "could have dialogue" with one another and not use war instead. This also has proved it was biggest lie out there. The biggest players just used it to create a rigged game so small players submitted to their corrupt way of thinking. Invade countries ..occupy countries and the small players just have to accept it with a big smile on their face because that is "according" to International law and thus permitted. The whole monetary system is also collapsing and no media is telling you that. The only thing one needs to do is take the currencies and compare them to one another and even to value of goods. You will see that currencies had way bigger value even 30 years back or less. So the 100 dollars 30 years back you could buy lets say 300 bread, while now it has reduced to the SAME 100 dollars only 100 bread.

When money has reached only the value of the metal in coins and paper money the value of paper, how many people you think will join the army? You think majority would join the army for the sake of their country? For patriotism? This is what differentiates Muslims from nationalists. Because we do it for the sake of Allah and Allah never goes away. If one believes or not believes in Allah, it doesn't take away His value. He will always remain and His value will always remain.

Everything is collapsing..nothing is remaining..all the lies Allah is revealing however you have to only pay some attention to it to see it. Again do NOT believe me go and do your own research you have internet at your finger tips. A few hours and you can come up with your own conclusion. But stop this whole faith in this lie that is called democracy and human rights this and freedom of this and that. It is better for you, because if you keep to that mindset and have faith in these lies when they collapse, you yourself will collapse. As everything that you had faith in that was according to "honesty" and "justice" according to you and no longer exists.. you will go haywire.

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[Mustafa16]

Bro, you get the whole point wrong. I have said earlier that everything nonsense. This "Freedom" , " democracy" , "freedom of speech", "human rights"..etc etc.

To make it less abstract. In south Kurdistan (modern day Northern Iraq) The Kurds say they want to have a vote for independence. According to international law this is their right to have such a vote and according to human rights it is also their right to choose their destiny.

Now what is it then?..US says we do not support this independence vote. .EU says we do not support this independence vote..Turkey just in April with whole referendum about presidential vote..is also saying we do not support independence vote. UN says also we do not support independence vote.

Now every country that SHOUTS from roof tops about "democracy", "human rights", "freedom of this and that"..suddenly when some choice is needed to be made then everything they shout has suddenly become not important. This has proven two points at least what i have been saying for some time.

Democracy and freedom of this and that and human rights is biggest bull****. The second thing is UN is the biggest mafia group out there. It is all biggest pile of cr**. Everything they say is cr*p. Do not listen to them and do not work with them...all liars no principles no dignity no nothing of any value.

This even you do not have to believe me. The reality itself is proving itself. Look at Trump right now. There is a BIG gap now between left and right in US..what happened to democracy where the majority to certain rules wins and decides what is gonna happen. Well it shows that as long as the mindset is not the same like a big group suddenly you should go against this democracy and freedom of speech..in other words biggest lie there is. Brexit another example majority has decided it..and the small group is now trying to postpone it the best they can. UN itself is collapsing. The UN was setup so countries "could have dialogue" with one another and not use war instead. This also has proved it was biggest lie out there. The biggest players just used it to create a rigged game so small players submitted to their corrupt way of thinking. Invade countries ..occupy countries and the small players just have to accept it with a big smile on their face because that is "according" to International law and thus permitted. The whole monetary system is also collapsing and no media is telling you that. The only thing one needs to do is take the currencies and compare them to one another and even to value of goods. You will see that currencies had way bigger value 30 years back. So the 100 dollars 30 years back you could buy lets say 300 bread, while now it has reduced to the SAME 100 dollars only 100 bread.

When money has reached only the value of the metal in coins and paper money the value of paper, how many people you think will join the army? You think majority would join the army for the sake of their country? For patriotism? This is what differentiates Muslims from nationalists. Because we do it for the sake of Allah and Allah never goes away. If one believes or not believes in Allah, it doesn't take away His value. He will always remain and His value will always remain.

Everything is collapsing..nothing is remaining..all the lies Allah is revealing however you have to only pay some attention to it to see it. Again do NOT believe me go and do your own research you have internet at your finger tips. A few hours and you can come up with your own conclusion.

First of all, no disrespect, but you obviously don't know how the UN works. The EU and the US don't control the entire UN, and some parts of the Un exist indepedently on nations' elitist or popular opinion, even though it is a community of countries. Second, the UN does not get involved in matters of state sovereignty, but only works in cases where international law has been violated, such as with genocide, indiscrimminate killing, ethnic cleansing, rape, excessive force, and severe human rights abuses. Just because they condemn turkey for human rights violations, does not mean they oppose EVERYTHING Turkey does against the Kurds. Like the need for a referendum. I think what you're getting at is that the UN does not do enough to stop atrocities.

[Simple_Person]

First of all, no disrespect, but you obviously don't know how the UN works. The EU and the US don't control the entire UN, and some parts of the Un exist indepedently on nations' elitist or popular opinion, even though it is a community of countries. Second, the UN does not get involved in matters of state sovereignty, but only works in cases where international law has been violated, such as with genocide, indiscrimminate killing, ethnic cleansing, rape, excessive force, and severe human rights abuses. Just because they condemn turkey for human rights violations, does not mean they oppose EVERYTHING Turkey does against the Kurds. Like the need for a referendum. I think what you're getting at is that the UN does not do enough to stop atrocities.

That was the last time i tried to make something in you to ignite and you start questioning. I will leave it at that. Don't come crying if "i told you so" has slapped across your face. Because i know when "i told you so" has woken people up from a dream by giving them the red pill they tend to either become so depressed by commit suicide because everything they believed was a lie or just like a zombie try to wake up every day finding no joy in life often still look to suicide as the way out.

Good luck with everything

Peace

[sister herb]

^ If someone disagrees with you, you don´t have to start attacking. Leave personal attacks away and this discussion doesn´t enter to wild fight - as it sometimes here happens.

[Simple_Person]

^ If someone disagrees with you, you don´t have to start attacking. Leave personal attacks away and this discussion doesn´t enter to wild fight - as it sometimes here happens.

This isn't a personal attack =_=!. Also about disagreement, it isn't my opinion, the data is right there for every person that says "you know what, 'i care' and i'm gonna take a look at this data". It is like Islam..it is right there ..the choice is rather given to you to want to spend some time investigating it or not..choice is yours.

In case of Mustafa16, he rather wants to stick in to the dream of BELIEVING what is being said to him by the system. His trust is so strong in the system, while for just a little bit critical person you can see the cracks of the system that when you look through it, you will see the truth.

If you see this as a "personal" attack, then for sure every time somebody has said to another person when doing da'wah well stick to what you want to believe instead of waking up and analyzing the existing data, thus coming to the conclusion yourself...then every Muslim doing da'wah that has said something similar has attacked a person that he had being doing da'wah to =_=!.

This might be me, but i start to see a bit more how sensitive people these days have become. One says "hello" and the other person is already very emotional because you did not say "hello, how are you?" instead. Emotions is what we these days pursue, not really logic, rationality and reason.

Anyways, peace.

[sister herb]

^ Well, next time when you write such post to someone, think how you would answer to it if someone else post it to you. Take this as kindly advice from the older sister (who has seen many times how problems start in this forum).

[Simple_Person]

^ Well, next time when you write such post to someone, think how you would answer to it if someone else post it to you. Take this as kindly advice from the older sister (who has seen many times how problems start in this forum).

If somebody would have posted exactly how i have posted, i would ask the person some questions why they have come to that conclusion to further understand their point of view. If somebody really cared for me to know the truth, they would spend time on me and try to help me out to give the necessary information, so that i also do not follow like a sheep and rather be critical and ask questions. I would not say..no it is like this or like that. I have said it before ask yourself 1000 times maybe that other person is right on 1 aspect. About the whole perspective of Mustafa16, is all trust in the system. I have looked from all kind of perspectives if there is even a ounce of justice in it..well this answers it all..

How to get away with murder? Most popular UN Library book in 2015 about immunity from war crimes: http://www.ibtimes.com.au/how-get-aw...crimes-1498358

Maybe i am different than most of the people, but i again stick to what i said before..people have become WAY TO emotional. So that many people on this forum have started to go haywire because they cannot reason, well that indeed confirms the level of intellectual debate. In other words, live and let live. If somebody is not ready to put their emotions on the side and not follow logic, rationality and reason, then never mind that person. That person is just not ready for the input of information.

[sister herb]

people have become WAY TO emotional. So that many people on this forum have started to go haywire because they cannot reason, well that indeed confirms the level of intellectual debate. In other words, live and let live. If somebody is not ready to put their emotions on the side and not follow logic, rationality and reason, then never mind that person. That person is just not ready for the input of information.

In this I agree with you. Everyone should remember to stay in topic and avoid too personal commentations. As reminder this matter, I made my the first comment to this thread. I am glad you too have found out this matter and can now avoid it.

;)

[anatolian]

There is a solution to all of this. Give a referendum to all the Kurds (ONLY the Kurds) and make them decide what they want to do. Do they want a independent Kurdistan or stick with Turkey, this simple solution is not given by Turkey. This rather indicates that Turks (Government) KNOW if they would do that there is a very high chance majority would vote independence. PKK has done their fair share of injustice, nobody is denying that. However suddenly they are terrorist, but Turkish state also done their fair of injustice..(collateral damage), but also killing people who speak out about the Kurdish issue being killed by MIT..is that suddenly not be branded as terrorist?..but racist..look at your mentality. Slowly comes up what you try to hide. Also Ocalan being from that group you say he was, based on what evidence..Turkish sources?.please..dude you think Turkish state would tell you the truth so easily? Also about Mustafa Kemal he has done EVERYTHING that is in the favor for the state of Israel to come in to existence, but this is off course not talked about by Turks. Splitting everything up, trying to destroy what Ottomans stood for or tried at least.

CIA this and western powers that. Lets say for the sake of argument i agree with everything you say. How come Turkey is still part of NATO then? Those same power have done those evil things against the Turks yet Turks show opportunistic lifestyle. In other words acting like a prostitute and undressing them so somebody could do their business today and somebody else tomorrow. No principles at all.

I am also talking about modern day Turkey not other Turks. You know this, but somehow you want beat around the bush.

About PKK, till this day i am more then sure that many MIT agents are with PKK.

Turkish Turks as you also said before that they are either one or the other way nationalistic. That is my whole problem with but now you are saying i am generalizing =_=!. If generalizing is me directing my speech towards every nationalistic Turk there is, then i fully agree with you that i am "generalizing". You say you are Muslim, but tend rather lean towards nationalism. Why i bite on this and don't let it go, is rather when i smell hypocrisy i tend to want to do everything in my ability to show the hypocrisy to others. Simply by giving evidence and logical questions that they can conclude for themselves if it is true or not.

Enjoy your Turkey while it lasts, if there is something that i most am disgusted by are not the people that do not know and because of ignorance do and say things that are rather towards injustice, what i am disgusted by is people who do know and when it is talked about certain things and suddenly they wish something for themselves, but not for others. Your comment is FULL of it. Typical behavior of iblies. Don't wish something for others, but only wish it for yourself. Allah is my witness i have told you everything in my ability. If you die in this mentality and according to Islam without a doubt is oppression, i will with all be testifying against you on the Day of Judgement.

No matter. Allah is just and He decides best. If I am what you say He already punishes me but if I am not, what you testify will have no bearing. You are so emotional and prejudicial. I am telling you that I recognize the oppression commited against the Kurds of Turkey but still you are blaming me with "oppression". For which action am I blamed with that? How do I oppress Kurds? And you guys confuse racism with nationalism always. It was the racists who oppressed Kurds not nationalists. Everybody is nationalist in some extent. Nationalism means having an extra care, respect and love for the things related to your own nation. Its not a supremacy like racism. You are for example a perfect Kurdish nationalist. Just read your own old posts. You bring up your Kurdishness in almost every thread either about ethnicities or not. Now, althought I am a Turkish nationalist myself, I am trying to be a just person always and admit the crimes commited agianst the Kurdish people of Turkey. We have always had a deep state and yes they killed some Kurdish buisiness men and community leaders in 90s. (But we also know that many Kurdish buisiness men were financially supporting Pkk.) What else, I am not trying to advocate the state of Turkey in each case. But when you compare the injustices commited by "two sides", Pkk largely outweighs.

I am totally against Turkey's membership of NATO. That harms us more than help. Also it harms our Muslim brethren.

I wonder what Atatürk did for the state of Israel to come in to existence. Thats beyond me.

This video was taken in apo's first query. You translate it. "BENİM İLK ÜYELİĞİM ÜLKÜ OCAKLARINADIR" means my first admission was for nationalist youth...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t99_oClxfBA

- - - Updated - - -

It should be worth noting that the United Nations (Birlesmis Milletler) is conducting an investigation into the treatment of Kurds in the Southeast, and many nations have accused Turkey of war crimes and crimes against humanity, and the UN has accused the Turkish government of "massive destruction, killings, and numerous other human rights violations." Entire cities have been destroyed, and many people have been tortured or killed in the bombings or shootings,

Sorry but this is just crap unless backed up with real evidence. Which cities were entirely destroyed in Turkey I really wonder.

- - - Updated - - -

http://aa.com.tr/en/turkey/pkk-kills...-turkey/895398

Meanwhile somewhere in SE Turkey..So called Marxist PKK kills workers..

[Mustafa16]

No matter. Allah is just and He decides best. If I am what you say He already punishes me but if I am not, what you testify will have no bearing. You are so emotional and prejudicial. I am telling you that I recognize the oppression commited against the Kurds of Turkey but still you are blaming me with "oppression". For which action am I blamed with that? How do I oppress Kurds? And you guys confuse racism with nationalism always. It was the racists who oppressed Kurds not nationalists. Everybody is nationalist in some extent. Nationalism means having an extra care, respect and love for the things related to your own nation. Its not a supremacy like racism. You are for example a perfect Kurdish nationalist. Just read your own old posts. You bring up your Kurdishness in almost every thread either about ethnicities or not. Now, althought I am a Turkish nationalist myself, I am trying to be a just person always and admit the crimes commited agianst the Kurdish people of Turkey. We have always had a deep state and yes they killed some Kurdish buisiness men and community leaders in 90s. (But we also know that many Kurdish buisiness men were financially supporting Pkk.) What else, I am not trying to advocate the state of Turkey in each case. But when you compare the injustices commited by "two sides", Pkk largely outweighs.

I am totally against Turkey's membership of NATO. That harms us more than help. Also it harms our Muslim brethren.

I wonder what Atatürk did for the state of Israel to come in to existence. Thats beyond me.

This video was taken in apo's first query. You translate it. "BENİM İLK ÜYELİĞİM ÜLKÜ OCAKLARINADIR" means my first admission was for nationalist youth...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t99_oClxfBA

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Sorry but this is just crap unless backed up with real evidence. Which cities were entirely destroyed in Turkey I really wonder.

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http://aa.com.tr/en/turkey/pkk-kills...-turkey/895398

Meanwhile somewhere in SE Turkey..So called Marxist PKK kills workers..

here it is, straight from the UN website: https://www.un.org/apps/news/story.a...0#.WaSxQciGPIV

[Simple_Person]

No matter. Allah is just and He decides best. If I am what you say He already punishes me but if I am not, what you testify will have no bearing. You are so emotional and prejudicial. I am telling you that I recognize the oppression commited against the Kurds of Turkey but still you are blaming me with "oppression". For which action am I blamed with that? How do I oppress Kurds? And you guys confuse racism with nationalism always. It was the racists who oppressed Kurds not nationalists. Everybody is nationalist in some extent. Nationalism means having an extra care, respect and love for the things related to your own nation. Its not a supremacy like racism. You are for example a perfect Kurdish nationalist. Just read your own old posts. You bring up your Kurdishness in almost every thread either about ethnicities or not. Now, althought I am a Turkish nationalist myself, I am trying to be a just person always and admit the crimes commited agianst the Kurdish people of Turkey. We have always had a deep state and yes they killed some Kurdish buisiness men and community leaders in 90s. (But we also know that many Kurdish buisiness men were financially supporting Pkk.) What else, I am not trying to advocate the state of Turkey in each case. But when you compare the injustices commited by "two sides", Pkk largely outweighs.

I am totally against Turkey's membership of NATO. That harms us more than help. Also it harms our Muslim brethren.

I wonder what Atatürk did for the state of Israel to come in to existence. Thats beyond me.

This video was taken in apo's first query. You translate it. "BENİM İLK ÜYELİĞİM ÜLKÜ OCAKLARINADIR" means my first admission was for nationalist youth...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t99_oClxfBA

Allah already punishes you?..By making you blind yes and dishonest. Me a Kurdish nationalist? Since when does a nationalist says he would wipe dog sh*t with the flag of his nation from under his boots? Foe me the Kurdish flag has zero value. I would spit on the Kurdish flag as much as I would have spit on the Turkish flag. This you are totally blinded. All you see is somebody raising Kurdish question and typical Turkish behavior of saying you are a nationalist by bringing up the question =_=!. Me emotional ? Yes 100% I agree with that when everything is being said and still people dishonestly choose the side of nationalism. That is when being "emotional" is just because if a person despite thinking for a moment and asking himself for a moment how come such a person is so emotional despite me admitting that Turkey being part of NATO = bad, Turkey having killed and oppressed Kurds a lot in the past ..and Erdogan not being a good leader. .what else does he want to hear?

Admitting all those things but still defending the state of Turkey is just saying well I "admit" all these things for the sake of justifying the existence of countries and should be like it.

Also typical Turkish behavior. Saying instead of PKK but Marxist PKK. Yes they are communist (ie without religion) if we follow that mentality then "Kafir Turkish"-state as they follow Mustafa Kemal with his secular Turkey and hypocrite Erdogan. So based on logic, rationality and reason they are no better. As in both sides people join the group and saying they are Muslims.
So all I see is just two groups one group is even worse than the other ..one does not say they are Muslims (pkk) and the other says they are (Erdogan). Now looking at this groups actions is hypocrisy all I am seeing. In Islam the place of hypocrites is lower than of kafir in hell fire. Besides that the hearts of a kafir is in the hands of Allah. So again based on logic, rationality and reason they could become Muslim while they are still alive. Now how can a hypocrite become Muslim?..well they already say they are Muslims...so no change here. But yeah although you know this admitting it is like spitting in the face of your own mother it is just to hard for you to admit it.

So like I said go your own way and Allah is indeed just. On the Day of Judgement if I am indeed on the side of justice be prepared that I will testify against you. Enjoy your state while it still exists.

[anatolian]

here it is, straight from the UN website: https://www.un.org/apps/news/story.a...0#.WaSxQciGPIV

That talks about only allegations. There is not an evidence in this article for the claim. Let me tell you then, PKK has captured some towns in the southeast and there is a war between these and security forces. The pitcures show how severe is that war. Though, I fail to see an entire destruction of the cities by the security forces.

Look what the article says "Some 10,000 teachers were reportedly dismissed on suspicion of having links with the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), which the Government considers a terrorist organization, without due process." PKK is regarded a terrorist group by the entire world not only "the goverment of Turkey". This shows me what kind of a hypocrite is the author. They try to legalize PKK by using the West 's reaction to the current goverment of Turkey which is AKP. And you, even a Turk, seem to fall in this deception.

[Freedom]

Kurds are a distinct peoples who want freedom from the oppression of the the Turkish state. The Turkish state officially denies the existence of ethnicities other than Turkish. You can see how that is a problem in many ways. The only solution to the Kurdish-Turkish conflict is Kurdish secession. Turkey will have to eventually concede the Kurdish territories, it's best they do it without wasting so much money and lives.

[anatolian]

Allah already punishes you?..By making you blind yes and dishonest. Me a Kurdish nationalist? Since when does a nationalist says he would wipe dog sh*t with the flag of his nation from under his boots? Foe me the Kurdish flag has zero value. I would spit on the Kurdish flag as much as I would have spit on the Turkish flag. This you are totally blinded. All you see is somebody raising Kurdish question and typical Turkish behavior of saying you are a nationalist by bringing up the question =_=!. Me emotional ? Yes 100% I agree with that when everything is being said and still people dishonestly choose the side of nationalism. That is when being "emotional" is just because if a person despite thinking for a moment and asking himself for a moment how come such a person is so emotional despite me admitting that Turkey being part of NATO = bad, Turkey having killed and oppressed Kurds a lot in the past ..and Erdogan not being a good leader. .what else does he want to hear?

Admitting all those things but still defending the state of Turkey is just saying well I "admit" all these things for the sake of justifying the existence of countries and should be like it.

Also typical Turkish behavior. Saying instead of PKK but Marxist PKK. Yes they are communist (ie without religion) if we follow that mentality then "Kafir Turkish"-state as they follow Mustafa Kemal with his secular Turkey and hypocrite Erdogan. So based on logic, rationality and reason they are no better. As in both sides people join the group and saying they are Muslims.
So all I see is just two groups one group is even worse than the other ..one does not say they are Muslims (pkk) and the other says they are (Erdogan). Now looking at this groups actions is hypocrisy all I am seeing. In Islam the place of hypocrites is lower than of kafir in hell fire. Besides that the hearts of a kafir is in the hands of Allah. So again based on logic, rationality and reason they could become Muslim while they are still alive. Now how can a hypocrite become Muslim?..well they already say they are Muslims...so no change here. But yeah although you know this admitting it is like spitting in the face of your own mother it is just to hard for you to admit it.

So like I said go your own way and Allah is indeed just. On the Day of Judgement if I am indeed on the side of justice be prepared that I will testify against you. Enjoy your state while it still exists.

How can I help you unless you clearly tell me with what I am being accused? You couldnt even tell me that simple thing yet. Is it nationalism? Since when nationalism is a crime? I am admiting the crimes Turkey has ever commited but am just not exegerating as PKK propoganda wants me to. Yes Kurdish idendity and language was forbiden once and the ones supporting it were oppressed. But I believe such things are not just reason to create a bloody terrorist group.

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Allah already punishes you?..By making you blind yes and dishonest. Me a Kurdish nationalist? Since when does a nationalist says he would wipe dog sh*t with the flag of his nation from under his boots? Foe me the Kurdish flag has zero value. I would spit on the Kurdish flag as much as I would have spit on the Turkish flag. This you are totally blinded. All you see is somebody raising Kurdish question and typical Turkish behavior of saying you are a nationalist by bringing up the question =_=!. Me emotional ? Yes 100% I agree with that when everything is being said and still people dishonestly choose the side of nationalism. That is when being "emotional" is just because if a person despite thinking for a moment and asking himself for a moment how come such a person is so emotional despite me admitting that Turkey being part of NATO = bad, Turkey having killed and oppressed Kurds a lot in the past ..and Erdogan not being a good leader. .what else does he want to hear?

Admitting all those things but still defending the state of Turkey is just saying well I "admit" all these things for the sake of justifying the existence of countries and should be like it.

Also typical Turkish behavior. Saying instead of PKK but Marxist PKK. Yes they are communist (ie without religion) if we follow that mentality then "Kafir Turkish"-state as they follow Mustafa Kemal with his secular Turkey and hypocrite Erdogan. So based on logic, rationality and reason they are no better. As in both sides people join the group and saying they are Muslims.
So all I see is just two groups one group is even worse than the other ..one does not say they are Muslims (pkk) and the other says they are (Erdogan). Now looking at this groups actions is hypocrisy all I am seeing. In Islam the place of hypocrites is lower than of kafir in hell fire. Besides that the hearts of a kafir is in the hands of Allah. So again based on logic, rationality and reason they could become Muslim while they are still alive. Now how can a hypocrite become Muslim?..well they already say they are Muslims...so no change here. But yeah although you know this admitting it is like spitting in the face of your own mother it is just to hard for you to admit it.

So like I said go your own way and Allah is indeed just. On the Day of Judgement if I am indeed on the side of justice be prepared that I will testify against you. Enjoy your state while it still exists.

How can I help you unless you clearly tell me with what I am being accused? You couldnt even tell me that simple thing yet. Is it nationalism? Since when nationalism is a crime? I am admiting the crimes Turkey has ever commited but am just not exegerating as PKK propoganda wants me to. Yes Kurdish idendity and language was forbiden once and the ones supporting it were oppressed. But I believe such things are not just reason to create a bloody terrorist group.

The reason why I implied "marxist" is because they are supposedly supporter of worker rights but kill workers

[Freedom]

How can I help you unless you clearly tell me with what I am being accused? You couldnt even tell me that simple thing yet. Is it nationalism? Since when nationalism is a crime? I am admiting the crimes Turkey has ever commited but am just not exegerating as PKK propoganda wants me to. Yes Kurdish idendity and language was forbiden once and the ones supporting it were oppressed. But I believe such things are not just reason to create a bloody terrorist group.

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How can I help you unless you clearly tell me with what I am being accused? You couldnt even tell me that simple thing yet. Is it nationalism? Since when nationalism is a crime? I am admiting the crimes Turkey has ever commited but am just not exegerating as PKK propoganda wants me to. Yes Kurdish idendity and language was forbiden once and the ones supporting it were oppressed. But I believe such things are not just reason to create a bloody terrorist group.

There is no greater reason to pick up arms

[anatolian]

Kurds are a distinct peoples who want freedom from the oppression of the the Turkish state. The Turkish state officially denies the existence of ethnicities other than Turkish. You can see how that is a problem in many ways. The only solution to the Kurdish-Turkish conflict is Kurdish secession. Turkey will have to eventually concede the Kurdish territories, it's best they do it without wasting so much money and lives.

Tell me then why HDP the so called defender of the Kurdish rights have %10 of votes despite PKK's oppresion to vote for this party? Kurds make around %22 of total population. If you can answer it I will answer the rest of your post

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Kurds are a distinct peoples who want freedom from the oppression of the the Turkish state. The Turkish state officially denies the existence of ethnicities other than Turkish. You can see how that is a problem in many ways. The only solution to the Kurdish-Turkish conflict is Kurdish secession. Turkey will have to eventually concede the Kurdish territories, it's best they do it without wasting so much money and lives.

Tell me then why HDP the so called defender of the Kurdish rights have %10 of votes despite PKK's oppresion to vote for this party? Kurds make around %22 of total population. If you can answer it I will answer the rest of your post

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There is no greater reason to pick up arms

Do you have any idea of their actions ?

[Freedom]

Tell me then why HDP the so called defender of the Kurdish rights have %10 of votes despite PKK's oppresion to vote for this party? Kurds make around %22 of total population. If you can answer it I will answer the rest of your post

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Tell me then why HDP the so called defender of the Kurdish rights have %10 of votes despite PKK's oppresion to vote for this party? Kurds make around %22 of total population. If you can answer it I will answer the rest of your post

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Do you have any idea of their actions ?

The PKK have committed less crimes than the Turkish state.
Also regarding HDP, they won the majority vote in the Kurdish areas. I don't know of any group of people where the turnout is 100%. Furthermore, the HDP had 13% in the first general election of 2015, but 10% in the second one because of the escalating Turkish military campaign, which was undoubtedly orchestrated by the Turkish government to reduce the Kurdish turnout.

Now look at HDP, a peaceful party, but its founders and members rounded up by the Turkish state.

Turkey has no business ruling Kurds. We don't want Turkey to rule us. End of story. Why don't the Turkish people understand that simple reality?

[anatolian]

The PKK have committed less crimes than the Turkish state.
Also regarding HDP, they won the majority vote in the Kurdish areas. I don't know of any group of people where the turnout is 100%. Furthermore, the HDP had 13% in the first general election of 2015, but 10% in the second one because of the escalating Turkish military campaign, which was undoubtedly orchestrated by the Turkish government to reduce the Kurdish turnout.

Now look at HDP, a peaceful party, but its founders and members rounded up by the Turkish state.

Turkey has no business ruling Kurds. We don't want Turkey to rule us. End of story. Why don't the Turkish people understand that simple reality?

When HDP had %13 at first there were Turkish votes in it from Kemalists and even nationalists just to reduce the AKP's vote ratio in the southeast. Even HDP ackowleged it as deposit votes. They took it back after seeing the wildness PKK once more time. I am not promoting AKP , they are chief devils who are responsible of the chaos after July 2015 but PKK are doing the same thing. They are oppressing Kurds to vote for HDP. HDPs Kurdish votes do not excede %11 and this only half of the estimated total Kurdish population of Turkey. How do you know that Kurds dont want Turkey? Have you ever made a survey?

[sister herb]

The PKK have committed less crimes than the Turkish state.

This is completely unsustainable justification when it goes to the human rights violations. Crime against other people is a crime, just same if you have made one crime and brother anatolian two crimes. You both are on the same line when it goes to the question who is quilty for the human rights violations.

Note: I used you and br anatolian just as examples. I don´t claim that you two would have done any crimes.

[Simple_Person]

How can I help you unless you clearly tell me with what I am being accused? You couldnt even tell me that simple thing yet. Is it nationalism? Since when nationalism is a crime? I am admiting the crimes Turkey has ever commited but am just not exegerating as PKK propoganda wants me to.

This "simple" thing is what is the biggest dividends. In the past i already have told you, lets say the M... arrives and he says the country X is our enemy as they oppose everything that i say and i have come and act in the name of Allah. You rather admit pursuing nationalism. You cannot be a nationalist and yet a Muslim. It is either a Muslim or a nationalist. That is one thing.

The other thing is, saying Turkey has done x, y, z while still supporting the state has has and still is supporting it. That is saying well i person X has killed somebody and i admit it is bad, but i am still a supporter of person X. In other words..this whole admitting is not admitting. Because nothing changes at all. So for me hearing it is rather you trying to "ease" my heart, but as i have a very critical view on things and ask questions upon questions until my brain is satisfied not my heart this whole argument of yours rather shows..well you are not sorry about anything.

Yes Kurdish idendity and language was forbiden once and the ones supporting it were oppressed. But I believe such things are not just reason to create a bloody terrorist group.

Sub'han'Allah, look at this. This again not only for me, just let anybody else read who has even a ounce of honesty and justice in their heart and let them say if Allah has not made you blind for the truth. Now kids (for everyone who is reading), this is what nationalism does to you. BEWARE!!. I often thank Allah for making me from a people who is being oppressed instead of being the oppressor. When you are blind for the truth and justice it has rather to do with something that contains in your heart as Allah does not make His servants blind for truth and justice. So far looking at what it contains in once heart is all i can conclude with you anatolian is that you rather have something that does not has a place to be there...which is nationalism.

When dialogue does not achieve what it needs to achieve because the oppressors do not wish to find peaceful means, action needs to take place. This basic human nature. Even in Islam. Jihad being it. Fight oppression.

"Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors." Qur'an 2:193

Who are the oppressors? Well if you have a ounce of honesty oppression can be easily filled with all of things. This day and age oppression is still going on, yet Erdogan and his media is portraying things so good. For example, why do you think Turkey right now is so obsessed with having "free visas" to EU? Why? Every wondered that? If they would get free visas you yourself know that MANY Kurds will migrate to EU. Thus leaving their homeland and thus changing demographics. You think this is not part of oppression? Go think dude, because neither you nor me is tomorrow promised.

The reason why I implied "marxist" is because they are supposedly supporter of worker rights but kill workers

To give you an example. You have those "village guards". Those are Kurds that get money from the Turkish state. In other words treason. In every religion and country there are certain things upon treason. You have workers that go and do something for the sake of money that is benefiting Turkish state. Again, since when is that not treason if we talk about Kurds. If they are Turks, it is rather a warning. DO NOT HELP those people. You have people in western modern day Turkey who work in tourism, since when does PKK go and kill somebody lets say a waiter =_=!?? Does a waiter benefit Turkish state..well only paying taxes maybe, but nothing more than that. But if you help Turkish state building a wall on the artificial borders well sorry but i do not shed 1 tear for you if you are killed. You are well aware that you include yourself in the war between PKK and Turkish state. You are well aware that helping Turkish state to achieve certain goal is benefiting the Turkish state and putting PKK in disadvantage.

There are Kurds who say they are against PKK. You know what i say, i have no problems with you..do as you fit. However when you help Turkish state instead, well i do not shed a tear for you if you are killed by PKK. If you are not for PKK, then also don't help the Turkish state. In other words you choose no sides. This is the definition of somebody who is really innocent if killed.

So from now on say Turkish "kafir" secular state and Turkish "Hypocrite"-Erdogan state when you say Marxist PKK. Then i have no problem with it. Or else say Turkish state and PKK no addition to either one of the two.

[Freedom]

When HDP had %13 at first there were Turkish votes in it from Kemalists and even nationalists just to reduce the AKP's vote ratio in the southeast. Even HDP ackowleged it as deposit votes. They took it back after seeing the wildness PKK once more time. I am not promoting AKP , they are chief devils who are responsible of the chaos after July 2015 but PKK are doing the same thing. They are oppressing Kurds to vote for HDP. HDPs Kurdish votes do not excede %11 and this only half of the estimated total Kurdish population of Turkey. How do you know that Kurds dont want Turkey? Have you ever made a survey?

You are being dishonest when you claim that Kurds want Turkey. The same Turkey that banned their language, denied them their existence, to this day the official Turkish claim is that Kurds are nothing but Mountain Turks. It's always been the dream of the Kurds to be independent for more than a century. This is not even up for debate.

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This is completely unsustainable justification when it goes to the human rights violations. Crime against other people is a crime, just same if you have made one crime and brother anatolian two crimes. You both are on the same line when it goes to the question who is quilty for the human rights violations.

Note: I used you and br anatolian just as examples. I don´t claim that you two would have done any crimes.

You missed my point. He uses the PKK's crimes as a reason to discredit their cause completely, but yet he brushes off the Turkish state's crimes as just mistakes.

[Simple_Person]

Tell me then why HDP the so called defender of the Kurdish rights have %10 of votes despite PKK's oppresion to vote for this party? Kurds make around %22 of total population. If you can answer it I will answer the rest of your post

You know why? Because of lack of education. A couple of months ago just before the Turkish presidential referendum, some Kurdish couple were asked what they were voting for. You know what they said? They said we are going to vote YES. Why? They said in such a long time nobody cared about the road of our village. When Erdogan came to power, he fixed the road to our village. This is BRIBERY!!. By keeping Kurds uneducated, the Kurds do not realize that somebody in power is not really caring for you, he is rather deceiving you.

If Kurdistan would come to existence, you really think such villages would be forgotten? This sadly uneducated Kurds do not realize or think about. As we human beings are hasty in everything. For me in the past just before i reverted back to Islam, i was such a nationalist. I had the Kurdish flag hung on the wall. When i became Muslim and pondered and educated myself on more things, i took off the Kurdish flag from my wall. Then off course is the question how come i still "bite" on this subject?

I see two groups, oppressors and the oppressed. I do not see Kurds and Turks. Look at the Arabs living in as-sham under the oppression of the Zionists. I don't see ooh they are Arabs and Jews =_=!. A Jew would abide by their scripture and not commit oppression. Arabs however that lives there many know what is oppression, yet still because they are Pro-Muslim brotherhood, they do not speak out against the oppression the Turkish state is doing right now as Erdogan is also pro-Muslim brotherhood. Many even joined Saddam Hussein against the Kurds. This is ANOTHER sign of that these Arabs are not really caring about oppression, rather about nationalism. Sadly there are many innocent Arabs that suffer because of nationalistic mindset of many Arabs there.

Allah is sure tester and He brings out what people try to hide deep in their heart. Many things to this day have been shown to everybody so nobody can confuse group X or group Y to be "Muslims" and following "Islamic traditions". All you see is nationalism, greed for money, greed for power and control.

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You missed my point. He uses the PKK's crimes as a reason to discredit their cause completely, but yet he brushes off the Turkish state's crimes as just mistakes.

Bro, i am not sure if you are a Kurd, but if you are..this is nothing new to us Kurds. Turks have always been doing it, he is even doing it right now if you can read between the lines.

However sister herb indeed is right. Within Islam if i stole something from the shop, that doesn't justify it because you also had stolen 2 things from the shop. We are both criminals and cannot be compared to one another. Both need to be punished or dealt with according to their crimes.

For now is what is gonna change so it never happens again. As you said it clearly in one of your posts, which i agree is a independent Kurdistan. I have also said before if countries would keep on existing how they are right now, i also want a independent Kurdistan. If they would stop existing to make place for a Islamic Caliphate, i then am for a Islamic Caliphate. ..REAL Islamic Caliphate not that fake ISIS aka CIA/MOSSAD/MIT nonsense. (btw, why MIT included?)..IF ISIS was really pro-Islam, they would also have so to say attacked Turkey..however they were friends =_=!.

But anyway you get my point.

[Freedom]

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You know why? Because of lack of education. A couple of months ago just before the Turkish presidential referendum, some Kurdish couple were asked what they were voting for. You know what they said? They said we are going to vote YES. Why? They said in such a long time nobody cared about the road of our village. When Erdogan came to power, he fixed the road to our village. This is BRIBERY!!. By keeping Kurds uneducated, the Kurds do not realize that somebody in power is not really caring for you, he is rather deceiving you.

If Kurdistan would come to existence, you really think such villages would be forgotten? This sadly uneducated Kurds do not realize or think about. As we human beings are hasty in everything. For me in the past just before i reverted back to Islam, i was such a nationalist. I had the Kurdish flag hung on the wall. When i became Muslim and pondered and educated myself on more things, i took off the Kurdish flag from my wall. Then off course is the question how come i still "bite" on this subject?

I see two groups, oppressors and the oppressed. I do not see Kurds and Turks. Look at the Arabs living in as-sham under the oppression of the Zionists. I don't see ooh they are Arabs and Jews =_=!. A Jew would abide by their scripture and not commit oppression. Arabs however that lives there many know what is oppression, yet still because they are Pro-Muslim brotherhood, they do not speak out against the oppression the Turkish state is doing right now as Erdogan is also pro-Muslim brotherhood. Many even joined Saddam Hussein against the Kurds. This is ANOTHER sign of that these Arabs are not really caring about oppression, rather about nationalism. Sadly there are many innocent Arabs that suffer because of nationalistic mindset of many Arabs there.

Allah is sure tester and He brings out what people try to hide deep in their heart. Many things to this day have been shown to everybody so nobody can confuse group X or group Y to be "Muslims" and following "Islamic traditions". All you see is nationalism, greed for money, greed for power and control.

I believe @anatolian genuinely wants good relations and peace between Kurds and Turks, but under the condition that Turks rule. In his mind, he thinks he is being fair, but really he is subscribing to the same ultranationalism of Ataturk that all of Anatolia must be ruled by the "superior Turks"

[Simple_Person]

I believe @anatolian genuinely wants good relations and peace between Kurds and Turks, but under the condition that Turks rule. In his mind, he thinks he is being fair, but really he is subscribing to the same ultranationalism of Ataturk that all of Anatolia must be ruled by the "superior Turks"

Oke, let me give him a GOOD solution.

I do NOT want this country called Turkey to fall. Instead, i want the country to change it's name to Kurdistan, change it's flag to Kurdish flag and change primary language to Arabic. Kurdish and Turkish let them be secondary languages of it.

This is when you bring nationalism up if one has nationalism in their heart. If somebody really did not care about nationalism but really just did not wanted the country to fall, they would agree to this solution as even a good solution. So @anatolian, would you agree that this might be a good solution? As the country did not fall and thus a end has come to fighting.

[Freedom]

Oke, let me give him a GOOD solution.

I do NOT want this country called Turkey to fall. Instead, i want the country to change it's name to Kurdistan, change it's flag to Kurdish flag and change primary language to Arabic. Kurdish and Turkish let them be secondary languages of it.

This is when you bring nationalism up if one has nationalism in their heart. If somebody really did not care about nationalism but really just did not wanted the country to fall, they would agree to this solution as even a good solution. So @anatolian, would you agree that this might be a good solution? As the country did not fall and thus a end has come to fighting.

Lol, he is gonna acknowledge that Turkish identity is based on Turkishness. That by its nature excludes Kurds.

We Kurds are Iranian peoples from the mountains, not Turkics from the steppes.

[Simple_Person]

Lol, he is gonna acknowledge that Turkish identity is based on Turkishness. That by its nature excludes Kurds.

We Kurds are Iranian peoples from the mountains, not Turkics from the steppes.

Nope, we Kurds are not Iranian people from the mountains. Kurds and old Persians were the same people, but not "Persians". The so called Persian history starts with Cyrus the Great, while nobody asks ..well if Cyrus the Great created Persia, what where they before? The current Iranians, are NOT the descendants of those Persians. The current Iranians are comparable with many people who call themselves Turks, while they for example have NO ties whatsoever with Turkics. They are rather from the Balkan areas as Mustafa Kemal wanted to make Kurds a minority he gave nationalities like candy. That is why Kurds have become a minority. Anatolian so far i have discussed with him is one of those people that his descendants is based on Balkan area. So not Turkic ties whatsoever. Real Turkic people have a bit looks like Mongolians and down that road appearance. While you see some say they are Turks, while you can clearly see based on their appearance they have Kurdish ancestry.

Islam even confirms this a bit. As isthe boat of Nuh(as) is based on Mount Judi near silopia and Cizre. ..which is you even could say the HEART of Kurdistan if one would combine all the parts.

Now looking at Cyrus the Great (his mother a Median princes) his rule was around 500 BC. However if we look at other foundlings for example things like historic Mesopotamia.

Mesopotamia: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rio%29.svg.png
Kurdistan how Kurds see it: https://decolonialatlas.files.wordpr...distan-map.png

What a coincidence isn't it?

Now if we look at findings of that area you come to things like "Epic of gilgamesh"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

Language sub'han'Allah is such a great gift of Allah. Language is something that is SUPER hard to extinguish. In Kurdish and i believe many dialects of us Kurds supports this.. we have something called "ga" which is a bull. "Gamesh" is a African bull. I am not sure in other dialects but in Kurmanji i believe a African bull is still called "gamesh".

In the Qur'an Prophet Nuh(as) did a dua to place his boat on a blessed place. Well as a Kurd yourself, i do not have to tell you that Kurdish area is indeed very blessed. Fertile lands, A LOT of springs, mountains. We do not need anything as everything we can get from the land it self.

Now if we already can track back language to about 2000 BC..that rather shows indeed that Kurds were there already. So the old-Persians are rather also Kurds but split from them. I read couple of months ago that even Persian is not a people, but rather a job-title. Which could indeed confirm many things i have said before as they have "split" from the Kurds but are the same people. "Paristan" means guarding in Kurdish. "Paris" is a guard. Which ALSO confirms why Iranians of today have things like Newroz. If they indeed were a different people, then they would have other customs, but yet they have the same customs as the Kurds in general.

So it is not that Kurds are Iranian people, rather OLD-Persians are Kurdish people (Better to say Medes or whatever). But current Iranians are not. They also have come from all kind of surrounding parts like many modern day people who call themselves Turks from Turkey. As you can see that their appearance does not look like the Kurds whatsoever. They have more like hollow eye sockets and a bit like brownish circles around their eyes.

[anatolian]

This "simple" thing is what is the biggest dividends. In the past i already have told you, lets say the M... arrives and he says the country X is our enemy as they oppose everything that i say and i have come and act in the name of Allah. You rather admit pursuing nationalism. You cannot be a nationalist and yet a Muslim. It is either a Muslim or a nationalist. That is one thing.

The other thing is, saying Turkey has done x, y, z while still supporting the state has has and still is supporting it. That is saying well i person X has killed somebody and i admit it is bad, but i am still a supporter of person X. In other words..this whole admitting is not admitting. Because nothing changes at all. So for me hearing it is rather you trying to "ease" my heart, but as i have a very critical view on things and ask questions upon questions until my brain is satisfied not my heart this whole argument of yours rather shows..well you are not sorry about anything.



Sub'han'Allah, look at this. This again not only for me, just let anybody else read who has even a ounce of honesty and justice in their heart and let them say if Allah has not made you blind for the truth. Now kids (for everyone who is reading), this is what nationalism does to you. BEWARE!!. I often thank Allah for making me from a people who is being oppressed instead of being the oppressor. When you are blind for the truth and justice it has rather to do with something that contains in your heart as Allah does not make His servants blind for truth and justice. So far looking at what it contains in once heart is all i can conclude with you anatolian is that you rather have something that does not has a place to be there...which is nationalism.

When dialogue does not achieve what it needs to achieve because the oppressors do not wish to find peaceful means, action needs to take place. This basic human nature. Even in Islam. Jihad being it. Fight oppression.

"Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors." Qur'an 2:193

Who are the oppressors? Well if you have a ounce of honesty oppression can be easily filled with all of things. This day and age oppression is still going on, yet Erdogan and his media is portraying things so good. For example, why do you think Turkey right now is so obsessed with having "free visas" to EU? Why? Every wondered that? If they would get free visas you yourself know that MANY Kurds will migrate to EU. Thus leaving their homeland and thus changing demographics. You think this is not part of oppression? Go think dude, because neither you nor me is tomorrow promised.



To give you an example. You have those "village guards". Those are Kurds that get money from the Turkish state. In other words treason. In every religion and country there are certain things upon treason. You have workers that go and do something for the sake of money that is benefiting Turkish state. Again, since when is that not treason if we talk about Kurds. If they are Turks, it is rather a warning. DO NOT HELP those people. You have people in western modern day Turkey who work in tourism, since when does PKK go and kill somebody lets say a waiter =_=!?? Does a waiter benefit Turkish state..well only paying taxes maybe, but nothing more than that. But if you help Turkish state building a wall on the artificial borders well sorry but i do not shed 1 tear for you if you are killed. You are well aware that you include yourself in the war between PKK and Turkish state. You are well aware that helping Turkish state to achieve certain goal is benefiting the Turkish state and putting PKK in disadvantage.

There are Kurds who say they are against PKK. You know what i say, i have no problems with you..do as you fit. However when you help Turkish state instead, well i do not shed a tear for you if you are killed by PKK. If you are not for PKK, then also don't help the Turkish state. In other words you choose no sides. This is the definition of somebody who is really innocent if killed.

So from now on say Turkish "kafir" secular state and Turkish "Hypocrite"-Erdogan state when you say Marxist PKK. Then i have no problem with it. Or else say Turkish state and PKK no addition to either one of the two.

You have been proven yourself what kind of a terrorist mindset you have with this post. You are justifying the murder of civillians. Bravo! They are not "helping" the Turkish state, they are helping the civilization, humanity. They are bringing the civilization to "your" Kurds. And you shamlessly blame Turkey with keeping Kurds uneducated. And of course we will go on to fight with this kind of mentality until the end. Thats enough for Eid.

[Simple_Person]

You have been proven yourself what kind of a terrorist mindset you have with this post. You are justifying the murder of civillians. Bravo! They are not "helping" the Turkish state, they are helping the civilization, humanity. They are bringing the civilization to "your" Kurds. And you shamlessly blame Turkey with keeping Kurds uneducated. And of course we will go on to fight with this kind of mentality until the end. Thats enough for Eid.

Terrorist mindset =_=!. As i have said earlier in other posts, i love human psychology. The war that is being waged in present day is not through bullets anymore, it is the psychological war that is being waged (ie propaganda, destroying ones identity). The honest person is depicted as a liar and the liar is depicted as a honest person. People are being robbed from their dignity, principles, property, identity through psychological warfare. Many Kurds in Turkey are even ashamed of saying they are Kurds because saying you as a Kurd is automatically seen as backward and ret*rded. This bringing "civilization" is one of those means as i have said before. Erdogan giving them a candy to rob them further of what belongs to them.

Just a few days ago saw a documentary called "Poor us: An Animated History of Poverty". In that documentary i kept on 1 specific thing in my memory. One of the speakers said in poor countries about 1 billion dollars is exported to rich countries and about one 8th is given back in aid from the rich countries. So somebody is robbing you and telling you in the mean time ..look i give you developing aid. If that stuff that is already part of your land stays in your land, every land can develop their self. No need for western "aid". It is a BIG psychological warfare and people are completely blind to it while being robbed in clear daylight. This is exactly the same with Turkish government and Kurds. Kurdish lands besides tourism(mountains to ruins of the past to even religious places), they also have a lot of oil. Also the source of the rivers Tigris and Euphrates BOTH originate in Northern Kurdistan (modern day south-eastern Turkey). I believe the Turks have removed many old ruins to replace them with dams and such. Such ruins to UNESCO would be compared to gold, although i only see ruins as an aya to what happened to those people..(ie only some stones remained of their existence because Allah destroyed them), but just for the sake of seeing it. The place prophet Nuh(as) his boat according to archaeologists is set, would have been one of the largest tourist place to many religions.

And now you say the Turks are "developing" Kurdish area's =_=!. If i would not have known these things myself i would even have believed you and have questioned myself. The truth is clear from falsehood, you either hate the person who speaks the truth or love the person who speaks the truth. I know it is not a good feeling when one pushes you in your open wound.

Btw, in the past i wasn't aware about whole western Kurdistan (Rojava - modern day north eastern Syria) and why Turkey so fiercely objected against it. It is Turkey's WORST nightmare. When all the cantons including path is cleared all the way to Mediterranean sea, that many Arab tribes and villages would want to be part of it, it means no more exporting oil and gas whatever through Turkey. I mean if i would be the oppressor i would also be very scared for the one whom i have oppressed because when he would get something, i am sure he would let me pay for all the harm i have done to him. I mean for the sake of argument IF the Greater Kurdistan becomes reality and path is included all the way to Mediterranean sea, this means no more oil being exported through Turkey, but rather directed through oil pipe lines to Greece. That being said, Turkey has no more direct contact to Arab world nor Iran. The only financial gain Turkey can get is tourism and export of fruits and vegetables. Well just recently we have seen (Russia boycotting Turkey) how dangerous it is if that is their ONLY source of income. They are at mercy of countries they do business with..(export). So you can bring Turks to their knees without even firing one bullet at them. Just not have any financial ties with them and your currency indeed is one's lifeline. When your currency has died it is the end of that particular country. Well Orthodox Christians still have not forgotten about Constantinople and Hagia Sophia...keep on eating from NATO's plate or else it is your end if one doesn't.

We will see what is gonna happen, as Turkey with each day is becoming MORE and stronger allies with Qatar(Muslim Brotherhood) and Iran (ie. enemies to Saudi Arabia, Eqypt and many other Arab countries).

[Mustafa16]

although I will admit, the PKK is also a terror group, and I don't support them one bit....but i suppose all oppression leads to radicalization and desperate measures......still, PKK are scum.... @Simple_Person , you're right, Kurds have and continue to face great atrocities, but @anatolian you're right, PKK has also committed great atrocities.....im not denying that.....I hope the Turks and Kurds can live together in peace.......it is not right for fellow Muslims, especially with a shared history, to be divided on ethnic nationalist lines......that is the mentality of the kaafir...is nationalism on the basis of skin complexion, looks, or culture.....and besides, the answer is CIVIC nationalism, not ethnic nationalism.

[Simple_Person]

although I will admit, the PKK is also a terror group, and I don't support them one bit....but i suppose all oppression leads to radicalization and desperate measures......still, PKK are scum.... @Simple_Person , you're right, Kurds have and continue to face great atrocities, but @anatolian you're right, PKK has also committed great atrocities.....im not denying that.....I hope the Turks and Kurds can live together in peace.......it is not right for fellow Muslims, especially with a shared history, to be divided on ethnic nationalist lines......that is the mentality of the kaafir...is nationalism on the basis of skin complexion, looks, or culture.....and besides, the answer is CIVIC nationalism, not ethnic nationalism.

What has happened has happened that for once and each group has to pay for their deeds, nobody is denying that. What now needs to be done is looking at the present and the future. We do not know the future, so what leaves is the present.

In Islam there is no kafir and Muslim or hypocrite or Muslim or polytheist and Muslim or people of the book and Muslim. In Islam there is SIMPLY the oppressor and the oppressed. Now in this war between PKK and Turkish government, we simply ask logical, rational and reasonable questions.

Question 1: What is the reason PKK fights the Turkish government? They(PKK) answers: Kurds are being oppressed.
Question 2: What is the reason Turkish government fights PKK? They(Turkish government) answers: PKK is a separatist organization.

What is the definition of separatist?

===========
someone who is a member of a particular race, religion, or other group within a country and who believes that this group should be independent and have their own government or in some way live apart from other people
Source used: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...ish/separatist
===========

Question 3: Why does PKK want to separate the Kurds from Turkey? They (PKK) answers: The oppression has and still is being done.
Question 4: Is there any historical OBJECTIVE evidence that what PKK says is true? Objective evidence, yes as not only PKK says this, but objective evidence points also to this and even Turks admit to this.
Question 5: Is this oppression still going on?
- If yes, based on what objective evidence?
- If no, based on what objective evidence?

As a Kurd and not taking sides (subjectivity) rather looking at all the evidence (objectivity), i even see that it is not really only bounded to PKK. I mean PKK is one thing and Turkey says YPG is part of PKK. For the sake of the argument, lets agree that indeed YPG and PKK are one group. But then is my question what has Barazani (PDK) to have a independent referendum from Iraq to do with PKK? As even Turkey is against this referendum as they say it will bring instability, but they do not care for democratic rights?

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/en/o...-quandary.html

Based on OBJECTIVE evidence, what has South Kurdistan (Modern day Northern Iraq) to do with PKK and YPG? I personally see absolutely NO connection rather the ONLY connection that i see is that they all are Kurds.

Question 6: What has Kurds to do with PKK, YPG, when they want to have a independent referendum?

I'm sorry but do i have to chew even more for the person reading this not only directing to you mustafa16. I mean how clear is this that for Turkey as long as Kurds remain separate, it is in their interest. So it has nothing to do with PKK or whatever organization. If it would have to do with PKK and YPG, then Turkey should have kept their mouth shut about the referendum in southern Kurdistan (modern day northern Iraq).

So Turkey is against independence referendum, but Erdogan was all to happy to want to have the presidential referendum. So the Turks have all the rights to choose what they want to do this or that, but others are not. Isn't this called hypocrisy?

I know @anatolian, the hate that you have makes you crazy when somebody shows the hypocrisy of the Turks. I can't help it. It is one of the characteristics of mine to not keep my mouth shut when i see hypocrisy and injustice.

So it all comes down that really based on the fight between PKK and Turkish Government, it is rather Turkish government who is being the oppressor. Now for you to brand PKK as a terrorist organization, i am sorry but i do not see them as a terrorist organization. A terrorist is one who puts fear in my heart. I am not afraid of PKK nor for Turkish government. So neither one of the two are to me a terrorist organization. All i am seeing is the oppressor and the oppressed. Take it or leave it. Truth is clear form falsehood. I know you do not like those words, you want to give your own definition to things. But things don't work like that, mr balkan i better should say..as you (i am still confused) are so pro-Turk, but have no Turkic ancestry. But whatever..what makes you happy.

[anatolian]

The PKK have committed less crimes than the Turkish state.
Also regarding HDP, they won the majority vote in the Kurdish areas. I don't know of any group of people where the turnout is 100%. Furthermore, the HDP had 13% in the first general election of 2015, but 10% in the second one because of the escalating Turkish military campaign, which was undoubtedly orchestrated by the Turkish government to reduce the Kurdish turnout.

Now look at HDP, a peaceful party, but its founders and members rounded up by the Turkish state.

Turkey has no business ruling Kurds. We don't want Turkey to rule us. End of story. Why don't the Turkish people understand that simple reality?

Turkey is a Democratic Republic. If you think that your rights are violated you creat a political party and demand it by democratic means by representing yourself in the perliement. You cant terorize the country.

HDP was theorically great but they have had direct connections with PKK. They cannot separate themselves from terror. There was an Islamic Kurdish party called HUDAPAR but PKK terrorized them too regarding them an enemy of HDP.

You need to explain still why half of Kurds of Turkey dont vote for HDP.

- - - Updated - - -

although I will admit, the PKK is also a terror group, and I don't support them one bit....but i suppose all oppression leads to radicalization and desperate measures......still, PKK are scum.... @Simple_Person , you're right, Kurds have and continue to face great atrocities, but @anatolian you're right, PKK has also committed great atrocities.....im not denying that.....I hope the Turks and Kurds can live together in peace.......it is not right for fellow Muslims, especially with a shared history, to be divided on ethnic nationalist lines......that is the mentality of the kaafir...is nationalism on the basis of skin complexion, looks, or culture.....and besides, the answer is CIVIC nationalism, not ethnic nationalism.

Turkish national identity is a civic one anyway according to the constitution. In the Turkish constitution "Turkish " is defined as all the people living in Turkey redardless of any ethnic or religious background. There are several other ethnic minorities in Turkey apart from Kurds and most of them are OK with being Turkish as identity.

[Simple_Person]

Sub'han'Allah and THIS EXACTLY is what Turkey is afraid of and tries to brainwash and twist things. All but lies and HYPOCRISY. As hypocrites are even WORSE than kafirs. In other words PKK ((communists ->kafirs) as Turks say), but Turkish government hypocrites as hypocrites will end up in the lowest of all the place in hell.

http://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/referundum

Because IF Turkey is so sure about their "brotherhood" between Kurds living in Turkey and them and SO SURE of it that the Kurds do not want to split from Turkey, they (Turkey) would without a doubt have said lets have a referendum among all the Kurds living in Turkey. To show it without a doubt that Kurds and Turks are brothers and thus we can fights side by side against PKK and make it clear to PKK they are not wanted.

However they (Turkish government) KNOWS that if such a referendum would be held, WITHOUT a doubt majority would say i want to leave Turkey and be independent.

As such actions as these (news headline: Turkey halts Rudaw broadcast on Turksat satellites)

http://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/250920172

and this for example..(news headline: Turkey's Erdogan threatens to shut off oil pipeline, to close border)

http://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/turkey/25092017

I mean barzani says he is a Muslim and is more or less pro-Erdogan compared to PKK. So what has Barzani to do with PKK? For the MOST dishonest Turks out there, Allah is showing things so clearly that Erdogan cannot hide behind words, because he is being cornered, thus speaks what is in his heart.. Be grateful to Allah that He is showing you what Erdogan is trying to hide behind the mask of Islam and trying to brainwash you (ignorant Turks in general) to divide the Muslims, for his own gains. If you still want to back Erdogan, know this is all being written in your book that will be used to testify against you.

Wake up while you are still alive.

Anyways, the more you look at things, the more Erdogan is creating unity among Kurds. As even pro-Turkish government Kurds (anti-PKK) by seeing such actions they see that Turkish government is against Kurds, and have been lying to them that they were only against PKK. Pro-HDP Kurds also have seen that Turkish government isn't about peaceful and political way of solving the Kurdish question, by prosecuting HDP members. Besides that there is a Kurdish Hezbollah party in Turkey that is pro-Erdogan and anti-PKK, they also because of such actions now see whats is going on rather Turkish government being anti-Kurd..and they themselves being Kurds. Will they follow the path of Islam? (fight injustice) or still hold on on a lie.

The Kurds in Syria they also have seen in the recent years Erdogan is clearly against them...so sub'han'Allah because of Turkish actions unity is being created among Kurds. That being said, two biggest hypocrite countries are being united (Iran + Turkey..all based on two things. Muslim brotherhood (Qatar) & their hate towards the Kurds.

However EVEN if Turkey would not take any actions against the Kurds in south-Kurdistan (modern day northern Iraq), still it would also be bad for them. They are doing whatever is in their power, but it is inevitable. Just matter of time. Also Turkey is heading towards cross-roads..will they choose left (US) or choose right (Russia). They must in the end choose one of the two as right now they (Turkish government) is still eating from NATO's plate as well as start eating from Russia's plate, which the other party would support PKK with weapons. So whatever army or weapons Turkey has, it looks like Turkey is doomed anyway. As they have been fighting PKK for such a long time and still cannot destroy them with everything they have, while PKK right now has ONLY only small-arms what if they would get more heavy arms??..what then? THE WINTER IS COMING!!

[anatolian]

Sub'han'Allah and THIS EXACTLY is what Turkey is afraid of and tries to brainwash and twist things. All but lies and HYPOCRISY. As hypocrites are even WORSE than kafirs. In other words PKK ((communists ->kafirs) as Turks say), but Turkish government hypocrites as hypocrites will end up in the lowest of all the place in hell.

http://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/referundum

Because IF Turkey is so sure about their "brotherhood" between Kurds living in Turkey and them and SO SURE of it that the Kurds do not want to split from Turkey, they (Turkey) would without a doubt have said lets have a referendum among all the Kurds living in Turkey. To show it without a doubt that Kurds and Turks are brothers and thus we can fights side by side against PKK and make it clear to PKK they are not wanted.

However they (Turkish government) KNOWS that if such a referendum would be held, WITHOUT a doubt majority would say i want to leave Turkey and be independent.

As such actions as these (news headline: Turkey halts Rudaw broadcast on Turksat satellites)

http://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/250920172

That is problematic from a few angles. First, how do you know that? I myself think if such a referandum takes place, majority of the Turkish Kurds would not vote to leave. Do we have a meter for it?
Second, is this your own project? There is not a demand for such a referandum within the Kurds in Turkey. I haven't heard it even from HDP. You are the first person I hear it. And you are an Iraqi Kurd. Third, no country on the surface of earth would give from it's landmass with a referandum. Fourth, let's say OK we go for it. How are you going to decide officially who is Kurd who is not? Shall you accept everyone who says he is Kurd? Is the critaria being able to speak Kurdish? Are you going to held a genetic research on each elector? None of these will give you an 100% accurate result. Fifth, what is "your" map of Kurdistan? Because everyone's map changes. Which provinces of Turkey are you gonna include the borders? What about the people living in the provinces you consider "Kurdish" but dont want to leave? There are ethnic Turks and other ethnic minorities in some of those places.

These are all flaws of your genius offer.

and this for example..(news headline: Turkey's Erdogan threatens to shut off oil pipeline, to close border)

http://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/turkey/25092017

I mean barzani says he is a Muslim and is more or less pro-Erdogan compared to PKK. So what has Barzani to do with PKK? For the MOST dishonest Turks out there, Allah is showing things so clearly that Erdogan cannot hide behind words, because he is being cornered, thus speaks what is in his heart.. Be grateful to Allah that He is showing you what Erdogan is trying to hide behind the mask of Islam and trying to brainwash you (ignorant Turks in general) to divide the Muslims, for his own gains. If you still want to back Erdogan, know this is all being written in your book that will be used to testify against you.

Wake up while you are still alive.

Anyways, the more you look at things, the more Erdogan is creating unity among Kurds. As even pro-Turkish government Kurds (anti-PKK) by seeing such actions they see that Turkish government is against Kurds, and have been lying to them that they were only against PKK. Pro-HDP Kurds also have seen that Turkish government isn't about peaceful and political way of solving the Kurdish question, by prosecuting HDP members. Besides that there is a Kurdish Hezbollah party in Turkey that is pro-Erdogan and anti-PKK, they also because of such actions now see whats is going on rather Turkish government being anti-Kurd..and they themselves being Kurds. Will they follow the path of Islam? (fight injustice) or still hold on on a lie.

The Kurds in Syria they also have seen in the recent years Erdogan is clearly against them...so sub'han'Allah because of Turkish actions unity is being created among Kurds. That being said, two biggest hypocrite countries are being united (Iran + Turkey..all based on two things. Muslim brotherhood (Qatar) & their hate towards the Kurds.

What Barzani says is not my concern really. Barzani had the control of the northern Iraq for decades while PKK were freely entering and leaving the region. All main bases of PKK are in the northern Iraq. This cant be done without the aid of Barzani, Talabani and peshmerga. And all middle-east is bored of that, not only Turkey. Both Iran and Iraq are extremely opposing the so called free Kurdistan referandum. I have no idea why you are so obsessed with Turkey but all these four countries Kurds are living in are bored of Kurdish terror.

However EVEN if Turkey would not take any actions against the Kurds in south-Kurdistan (modern day northern Iraq), still it would also be bad for them. They are doing whatever is in their power, but it is inevitable. Just matter of time. Also Turkey is heading towards cross-roads..will they choose left (US) or choose right (Russia). They must in the end choose one of the two as right now they (Turkish government) is still eating from NATO's plate as well as start eating from Russia's plate, which the other party would support PKK with weapons. So whatever army or weapons Turkey has, it looks like Turkey is doomed anyway. As they have been fighting PKK for such a long time and still cannot destroy them with everything they have, while PKK right now has ONLY only small-arms what if they would get more heavy arms??..what then? THE WINTER IS COMING!!

As per the 1926 Ankara agreement between Turkey and Britain, Turkey has right to invade the northern Iraq and occupy Musul and Kirkuk if the territorial integrity of Iraq is violated. So, a so called free Kurdistan is enough reason for us to occupy it. Even the Turkmens are recieving continous attacks from the Kurdish terrorists in the region currently which makes it another just reason for us for the invasion. However, for the reasons you have mentioned above, we as Turkey must stay neutral and keep away from any war as possible.

Oh never mind, we Turks are resistent to winter..and there comes a spring after every winter.

[Simple_Person]

That is problematic from a few angles. First, how do you know that? I myself think if such a referandum takes place, majority of the Turkish Kurds would not vote to leave. Do we have a meter for it?
Second, is this your own project? There is not a demand for such a referandum within the Kurds in Turkey. I haven't heard it even from HDP. You are the first person I hear it. And you are an Iraqi Kurd. Third, no country on the surface of earth would give from it's landmass with a referandum. Fourth, let's say OK we go for it. How are you going to decide officially who is Kurd who is not? Shall you accept everyone who says he is Kurd? Is the critaria being able to speak Kurdish? Are you going to held a genetic research on each elector? None of these will give you an 100% accurate result. Fifth, what is "your" map of Kurdistan? Because everyone's map changes. Which provinces of Turkey are you gonna include the borders? What about the people living in the provinces you consider "Kurdish" but dont want to leave? There are ethnic Turks and other ethnic minorities in some of those places.

These are all flaws of your genius offer.



What Barzani says is not my concern really. Barzani had the control of the northern Iraq for decades while PKK were freely entering and leaving the region. All main bases of PKK are in the northern Iraq. This cant be done without the aid of Barzani, Talabani and peshmerga. And all middle-east is bored of that, not only Turkey. Both Iran and Iraq are extremely opposing the so called free Kurdistan referandum. I have no idea why you are so obsessed with Turkey but all these four countries Kurds are living in are bored of Kurdish terror.



As per the 1926 Ankara agreement between Turkey and Britain, Turkey has right to invade the northern Iraq and occupy Musul and Kirkuk if the territorial integrity of Iraq is violated. So, a so called free Kurdistan is enough reason for us to occupy it. Even the Turkmens are recieving continous attacks from the Kurdish terrorists in the region currently which makes it another just reason for us for the invasion. However, for the reasons you have mentioned above, we as Turkey must stay neutral and keep away from any war as possible.

Oh never mind, we Turks are resistent to winter..and there comes a spring after every winter.

My project? I base the things I say based on logic, rationality and reason with proof. However even me doing that people like yourself reject it. However besides me coming to such a conclusion something has happened that CONFIRMED what I say. Which is the reaction of Erdogan. If there was no such a scare for igniting a wake up call among the Kurds in Noth Kurdistan (modern day south eastern Turkey) as they never have any feelings or desire to separate from the Turks Erdogan would not have reacted that way. So yes I laugh and not even a little bit but out loud.

That being said the things you say are the worries of tomorrow not of today who would want to vote etc. What is important to keep in mind is there are Kurds and Kurds are the root origin for PKK for example still existing. Turks knows this that is why they have tried to that deal of free visas with EU so Kurds could flee from their homeland giving the Turks the ability to change the demographics of the area.

Believe what you want. We might differ in conclusions of what is gonna happen or looking like it but this will be confirmed in the future which one of us is right. My conclusion is ..it is time to start cleaning the Ummah of hypocrisy. ISIS has done that but now slowly I also am seeing this be done with the Turks. Even others agreed with me for example with whole Turkish stance the last couple of years. Every time the Turks are being cornered that which trues to hide in the heart Allah shows to the Muslims...as the Turks time after time show clear intend of nationalism above Deen. Even just recently. Erdogan cares about Rohynga and they being oppressed but do the same to other Muslims. Internet shows it all.

It is.changing..and fast beyond my expectations and not for the better of the Turks that for sure. And my "obsession" with the Turks and not with others is because I hate hypocrisy. Iran are Shia just like modern day Iraqi government and could even say syrian government (alewi). However the Turks say they are sunni Muslims that is just ..not acceptable to me...even saddam hussein was rather secular and not really kept pretending to be Muslim time after time like Erdogan doing it.

[Simple_Person]

I had to post this, because pictures say more than 1000 words. This is exactly what is going on and the Arabs are blind beyond unbelief.

News headline: Erdogan threatens halting relations with Israel amid Kurdish independence vote: http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Erd...ce-vote-506000
published september 26 2017.

Just not so long ago there were chaos with Al-Aqsa Mosque. I believe i never read anywhere that Erdogan has said something as similar like this. So Israel doing whatever they want with Al-Aqsa Mosque and such is oke, but when it comes to Kurds suddenly that is reason enough to speak out about the relations.

Many would say i am being a nationalist. I say, let him speak in case of BOTH instances, so to say, but this again sub'han'Allah isn't happening. Again don't care about deen, but nationalism is all that he lives for.

News headline: Israeli ambassador: Turkey and Israel can enjoy cooperation not only in energy but also other sectors: https://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy...-other-sectors
Published: september 10 2017.

The Arabs are being played sooo hard. I mean even in case of Iraq. I am myself a Kurd and logically speaking the gas/oil on Kurdish lands belongs to them, but for the sake of argument lets say that gas/oil indeed belongs to whole Iraq. KRG (Kurdistan Regional Government) has been transporting oil through Turkey for some years now. Iraq KNOWS this and Turkey is well aware of what they are doing. So they (Turkey) is raising the middle finger to Iraq the whole time. No wonder Islam is being depicted as a "backward"-religion if people have to look at those nationalistic Arabs and their intellect. Being screwed on a clear daylight while you know it.

[Simple_Person]

Sub'han'Allah, Hypocrisy has NO limits with hypocrites.

"The borders are between Turkey and Iraq, not borders between Turkey and Kurdish regional authorities"

So all those years Baghdad (Iraq) was screaming from the roof tops about the oil Kurds are transporting through Turkey for their own gain, was illegal, but Turkey saw borders between Turkey and Kurdish regional authorities because Turkey had financial gain in it, yet now because it is not in their interests, suddenly it is Turkey and Iraq and not Turkey and Kurdish regional authorities.

And all those Arabs..such fools to trust such hypocrites. Kurds know the Turks all to well..as they are backstabbers, Russia has even just recently also experienced it, but also the Arab rebels against Assad have noticed this backstabbing, as even to ISIS have noticed this backstabbing. With every step the Turks are taking, it is like Allah showing to the whole wide world, but ESPECIALLY the NAIVE Muslims who think of the Turks as military power that will fight for Islam that these guys should not be trusted. With each day i am amazed that Arabic is the language of the Qur'an and Arabs do not have to learn it so to say as it is their native language, yet somehow Arabs can in no way be associated with intellect.

Full interview France 24: http://www.france24.com/en/20171006-...barzani-israel

[talibilm]

:sl:

@Simple_Person

I do not have enough knowledge on this conflict and also many other conflicts because i am tired of hearing them (though i worry for the innocent muslim) and also because of the media which is mostly kuffar and their intention to downgrade Islam and to confuse the muslim ummah (lies & twists) So I rarely believe those news and unable to decide who's wrong ? or who's right ? except in those cases where i happened to get first hand info from the direct victims and so on . So normally I do not enter such threads.

But I would like to remind the world that good Kurd Muslims must be respected and honoured for the favour Salauhuddin Ayyubi ( May Allah show his mercy and pleased with him) has done on this Ummah during the crusades by saving the blessed body of Nabi :saws: from the crusaders for which every Muslim is indebted to Hafiz Salaudeen Ayyubi (Rah alay) and his people.

May our beloved Turkish brothers and beloved Erdogan shed a little light on this and come to a peaceful terms and settlement with Kurdish Brothers and win their sincere co operation in all matter specially Military because they are in them great fighters like Hafiz Ayyubi was.

May Allah ar rahman unite this Ummah and save from the SHAITANS that are trying to divide and rule over this ummah.

[Simple_Person]

:sl:

@Simple_Person

I do not have enough knowledge on this conflict and also many other conflicts because i am tired of hearing them (though i worry for the innocent muslim) and also because of the media which is mostly kuffar and their intention to downgrade Islam and to confuse the muslim ummah (lies & twists) So I rarely believe those news and unable to decide who's wrong ? or who's right ? except in those cases where i happened to get first hand info from the direct victims and so on . So normally I do not enter such threads.

But I would like to remind the world that good Kurd Muslims must be respected and honoured for the favour Salauhuddin Ayyubi ( May Allah show his mercy and pleased with him) has done on this Ummah during the crusades by saving the blessed body of Nabi :saws: from the crusaders for which every Muslim is indebted to Hafiz Salaudeen Ayyubi (Rah alay) and his people.

May our beloved Turkish brothers and beloved Erdogan shed a little light on this and come to a peaceful terms and settlement with Kurdish Brothers and win their sincere co operation in all matter specially Military because they are in them great fighters like Hafiz Ayyubi was.

May Allah ar rahman unite this Ummah and save from the SHAITANS that are trying to divide and rule over this ummah.

Uncle, we have nothing to do with Salahuddin Ayyubi as he did for the sake of Allah and because of that it is not that other Muslims should respect us. Other people who call themselves Muslims should respect us and honor us because we are Muslims nothing more. However all there is these days is hypocrisy.

My advice is rather to spend some time educating yourself in this matter to know and be aware who you side with. As the liar will make you believe he is the honest person and the honest person will be depicted as a liar. You and you alone will answer for your behavior on the Day of Judgement. As I in other topics have shown my concern about the current political situation around the world much is like mountains are moving and much is rather going parallel in the direction of Islamic end times..as how the ahadith about end times have talked about.

So it just could be that within our life time we would witness even the major signs of the hour. When that happens (be aware I am not saying it is going to happen but it MIGHT) one must be aware of the hypocrites. Because when promised one arrives and he shows being opposite to certain people while you rather are fond of those people ..will you side with him or will you side with those people instead?.

I have not explained in the past why the promised one himself is also a fitna just like Dajjal. We as Muslims expect the promised one to arrive however who says you or me or whomever calls himself Muslim will in the end follow him?. Allah is tester and for sure Allah might show us somebody that goes AGAINST our expectations. Just like how the Jews were waiting for a prophet to arrive but instead Rasullah (saws) was illiterate and not from bani Isreal. What if he would be the enemy of the person you love so much..be it one's spouse or even ones children or even one's nation?. Will you side with him or your spouse or children or nation against him? This life is all about testing. That is why I do not care about nationalism as it rather will be my doom then saving me. However to really clean your heart from such things takes time ...A LOT of time. One cannot simply change within a few minutes. That is why when sun rises from the west (one of the major signs of the end times) everybody will believe but it will not benefit them anymore. This has puzzled me for some time and the conclusion so far that I have come to is indeed when somebody believes (ie becomes Muslim) you have Islam but to get imaan it needs time. However as sun rising from the west being one of the major signs and the major signs coming one after the other means dajjal will also come very quickly. In other words the test of dajjal has EVERYTHING to do with imaan as he will show miracles before your eyes. Only the one who has truly imaan will disbelieve in him and Allah knows best.

So why am I still explaining this. I explained this because tomorrow in'sha'Allah my account will be disabled and this will be one of my last comments on this forum. So as a last piece of advice I give to anybody who has a ounce of honesty in them.

[talibilm]

Uncle, we have nothing to do with Salahuddin Ayyubi as he did for the sake of Allah and because of that it is not that other Muslims should respect us. Other people who call themselves Muslims should respect us and honor us because we are Muslims nothing more. However all there is these days is hypocrisy.

My advice is rather to spend some time educating yourself in this matter to know and be aware who you side with. As the liar will make you believe he is the honest person and the honest person will be depicted as a liar. You and you alone will answer for your behavior on the Day of Judgement. As I in other topics have shown my concern about the current political situation around the world much is like mountains are moving and much is rather going parallel in the direction of Islamic end times..as how the ahadith about end times have talked about.

So it just could be that within our life time we would witness even the major signs of the hour. When that happens (be aware I am not saying it is going to happen but it MIGHT) one must be aware of the hypocrites. Because when promised one arrives and he shows being opposite to certain people while you rather are fond of those people ..will you side with him or will you side with those people instead?.

I have not explained in the past why the promised one himself is also a fitna just like Dajjal. We as Muslims expect the promised one to arrive however who says you or me or whomever calls himself Muslim will in the end follow him?. Allah is tester and for sure Allah might show us somebody that goes AGAINST our expectations. Just like how the Jews were waiting for a prophet to arrive but instead Rasullah (saws) was illiterate and not from bani Isreal. What if he would be the enemy of the person you love so much..be it one's spouse or even ones children or even one's nation?. Will you side with him or your spouse or children or nation against him? This life is all about testing. That is why I do not care about nationalism as it rather will be my doom then saving me. However to really clean your heart from such things takes time ...A LOT of time. One cannot simply change within a few minutes. That is why when sun rises from the west (one of the major signs of the end times) everybody will believe but it will not benefit them anymore. This has puzzled me for some time and the conclusion so far that I have come to is indeed when somebody believes (ie becomes Muslim) you have Islam but to get imaan it needs time. However as sun rising from the west being one of the major signs and the major signs coming one after the other means dajjal will also come very quickly. In other words the test of dajjal has EVERYTHING to do with imaan as he will show miracles before your eyes. Only the one who has truly imaan will disbelieve in him and Allah knows best.

So why am I still explaining this. I explained this because tomorrow in'sha'Allah my account will be disabled and this will be one of my last comments on this forum. So as a last piece of advice I give to anybody who has a ounce of honesty in them.

Dear (Son, nephew) i am pleased with your deep thoughts which will need for me some time to think or reply about them . But one fact you have highlighted its about hypocrites which none can deny who were there when Prophet :saws: was there and it will be untill the end of times as hadiths predict that too even from the scholars which hadith called as'' two faced imposters.'' Dividing the Ummah just to make their opinions dominant that will only lead to more sects which Allah had made haram. Even if they had Diff OP the Scholars MUST ADVICE NOT TO BREAK RELATIONSHIP with your Muslim brother and say salam but what happens is they even avoid to reply salam, which is fard, but instead say hi to kuffars with a smile. Naudhubillah, the peak of ignorance.

That's why the Glorious Quran and hadith warned about not take them as gods http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...lar-Please-jzk ) and to use our eeman to distinguish between good & bad , haram or halal since the grey area will always be there AS A TEST TO HIS MUHMINS FROM ALLAH as i have posted just a few days back here
Mostly overlooked Hadith and verses and their wisdom

This a Muslim forum opinions of sincere Muslims like you are to be listened and discussed and when its oppressed its never a wise thing since difference of opinions will always exist in the ummah. But the Gist is we must stick together and not back bite or back stab unless untill we have uttered some matters of shirk or kuffar or great misguidance. Even mi signature below infers what I say.

May Allah ar Rahmaan , guide us all. Ameen.

[Simple_Person]

Dear (Son, nephew) i am pleased with your deep thoughts which will need for me some time to think or reply about them . But one fact you have highlighted its about hypocrites which none can deny who were there when Prophet :saws: was there and it will be untill the end of times as hadiths predict that too even from the scholars which hadith called as'' two faced imposters.'' Dividing the Ummah just to make their opinions dominant that will only lead to more sects which Allah had made haram. Even if they had Diff OP the Scholars MUST ADVICE NOT TO BREAK RELATIONSHIP with your Muslim brother and say salam but what happens is they even avoid to reply salam, which is fard, but instead say hi to kuffars with a smile. Naudhubillah, the peak of ignorance.

That's why the Glorious Quran and hadith warned about not take them as gods http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...lar-Please-jzk ) and to use our eeman to distinguish between good & bad , haram or halal since the grey area will always be there AS A TEST TO HIS MUHMINS FROM ALLAH as i have posted just a few days back here
Mostly overlooked Hadith and verses and their wisdom

This a Muslim forum opinions of sincere Muslims like you are to be listened and discussed and when its oppressed its never a wise thing since difference of opinions will always exist in the ummah. But the Gist is we must stick together and not back bite or back stab unless untill we have uttered some matters of shirk or kuffar or great misguidance. Even mi signature below infers what I say.

May Allah ar Rahmaan , guide us all. Ameen.

Ameen

Uncle, when saying Allahu Akbar, when saying La illah ila Allah muhammad rasul Allah, but still no matter what one utters that somehow must have the effect of giving a electric shock to ones heart to wake up and listen, to wake up and be alert, but it falls upon deaf ears, it falls upon dead hearts. As everything that is regarded as input of information (seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling), but no sign of the heart reacting to it, is rather a scary thought. The case of somebody who is a non-Muslim, that we regard it as a different case.

As regarding somebody who is a non-Muslim, there is i believe a hadith that a person will do everything that can counted to a person that is of hell fire, that when 1 evil deed is left to be counted as person destined for hell fire, but it has written that that individual is a person of paradise, he will turn around and follow the path of a righteous person and enter paradise in the end. This is the same matter with a person who does everything a truth mu'min does, that only 1 deed is left that that person is accounted as person of paradise, but if it was written that that individual is a person of hell fire, he will turn around and follow the path of a person who follows the path of hell fire.

The case of a hypocrite is totally something different. The hypocrite utters the words of a Mu'min, but stays like this until his death. Back in the time of Rasullah(saws) many had an idea who were the hypocrites, but with everything they (hypocrites) said the sahaba measured it with Islam. These days we have lost this ability. We listen to somebody without processing if what that individual has said is indeed correct or not. We have to be careful who we take as allies. Unity is one thing indeed, however currently there is no unity to begin with.

======Hadith======
The people used to ask Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) about good, but I used to ask him about evil for fear that it might overtake me. Once I said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! We were in ignorance and in evil and Allah has bestowed upon us the present good; will there by any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I asked, "Will there be good after that evil?" He said, "Yes, but it would be tained with Dakhan (i.e. Little evil)." I asked, "What will its Dakhan be?" He said, "There will be some people who will lead (people) according to principles other than my tradition. You will see their actions and disapprove of them." I said, "Will there by any evil after that good?" He said, "Yes, there will be some people who will invite others to the doors of Hell, and whoever accepts their invitation to it will be thrown in it (by them)." I said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Describe those people to us." He said, "They will belong to us and speak our language" I asked, "What do you order me to do if such a thing should take place in my life?" He said, "Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief." I asked, "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?" He said, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state."

Source used: https://sunnah.com/bukhari/61/113
================

Read the bold part. We ALHAMDULILLAH have both internet, so about gaining knowledge we have the ability without not a lot of effort compared to the old times. To me living in the west, there are two evils and i choose the lesser evil. To be surrounded by Muslims but these days many Muslims with extreme mentality or rather culture-Muslims. Or just stay away from Muslims. Be at home if one doesn't need to go outside. This of the both evils, i choose that rather. From my family to the friends i had, part being Muslims and other part not, but just liars. They lie and lie and lie, if there is a chance to rip of the government they do it. Yet saying they are Muslims. Or here in the west when hanging with Muslims, they also either are liars or drag you with them in their sin. I am not saying i am perfect and follow Islam perfectly, absolutely not. However there is no Muslim close to me, that i say he has good effect on me. So i just stay away from all of them. Make my own home in such a condition that i do not get bored.