Greatest Objections to Christianity?

[randomcitizen1]

What is/are your greatest objection(s) to Christianity and why?

What school or branch of Islam do you consider yourself a part of?

For the first question, relatively detailed responses are preferable to one-sentence replies.

Thank you for your time.

[anatolian]

What is/are your greatest objection(s) to Christianity and why?

What school or branch of Islam do you consider yourself a part of?

For the first question, relatively detailed responses are preferable to one-sentence replies.

Thank you for your time.

Trinity...Because it is false...(Hope that is short enough...)

Sunni Hanafi

[Mustafa16]

It shows clear signs of being a man-made, artificial, simple ancient people mentality religion, if you actually look at the texts.

[Supernova]

What is/are your greatest objection(s) to Christianity and why?

What school or branch of Islam do you consider yourself a part of?

For the first question, relatively detailed responses are preferable to one-sentence replies.

Thank you for your time.

Dear RandomCitizen1,

It would be impossible to get a full comprehensive answer on our (The average IB user) refutations regarding your faith. A user might cut and paste articles or even attempt to refute it but I do assure you that the refutation would be a summary.

If you are looking for a academic discussion on the matter then:

For the full comprehensive refutation a South African scholar in the late 70s early 80's Ahmed Deedat has written many books and there are many videos regarding this matter. www.ipci.co.za. A later authority on the issue would be Zakir Naik but in my opinion Ahmed Deedat would be more interesting as Ahmed Deedat has himself studied at a formal Institution of teaching Christianity in Durban. Mr Naik himself did not study under any Christian Authority at all. (I stand to be corrected on that though)

If on the other hand you are looking at the average layman muslims point of view then we don't believe in Christianity based on the fact that we accept The Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) as the last and final of all Prophets. In turn we have the Quran which gives us a different version of Jesus (PBUH).

If you want to entangle the average Muslim into this discussion - our most simplified answer is We believe in what the Quran tells us.

If you want more intricate answers in Comparative Religion then I have given you two scholars of Authority.

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[Scimitar]

If it's polemics you want...










...I've got plenty more where these came from, and to add to the videos I haven't yet shared in this post (which I may add once I've seen your response) season two is being planned for early next year in sh'Allah.

Don't forget to read the comments on the videos ;)

Peace

[Thekafir]

If you are looking for a academic discussion on the matter then:
For the full comprehensive refutation a South African scholar in the late 70s early 80's Ahmed Deedat has written many books and there are many videos regarding this matter. www.ipci.co.za. A later authority on the issue would be Zakir Naik but in my opinion Ahmed Deedat would be more interesting as Ahmed Deedat has himself studied at a formal Institution of teaching Christianity in Durban. Mr Naik himself did not study under any Christian Authority at all. (I stand to be corrected on that though)

Do you believe that Ahmed Deedat to be an authoritative source for the critique of Christianity? Zakir Naik? ThX :-)

[Scimitar]

Do you believe that Ahmed Deedat to be an authoritative source for the critique of Christianity? Zakir Naik? ThX :-)

I certainly do not!!! He was good for his time, and some of his points still remain standing - however - apologists have since then, made a pigs ear of the subsequent bible(s) and their revisionist versions which have conflated certain narratives over other ones.

Which is why Paul Williams, is in my opinion, a breath of fresh air and concurrent in his up-to-the-minute historical breakdown of the Bible(s) and their historicity, theology and polemics.

Of course, there are many others, take for example - Darren Myatt aka Hamza:



Peace

[Thekafir]

He was good for his time, and some of his points still remain standing...

Which means that many of his points were/are refuted. Much the same as his protege Zakir Naik...

Which is why Paul Williams, is in my opinion, a breath of fresh air and concurrent in his up-to-the-minute historical breakdown of the Bible(s) and their historicity, theology and polemics.

Please explain why he is a "breath of fresh air"...

[randomcitizen1]

Thank your for your replies. I appreciate you all taking the time to respond here.

Dear RandomCitizen1,

It would be impossible to get a full comprehensive answer on our (The average IB user) refutations regarding your faith. A user might cut and paste articles or even attempt to refute it but I do assure you that the refutation would be a summary.

If you are looking for a academic discussion on the matter then:

For the full comprehensive refutation a South African scholar in the late 70s early 80's Ahmed Deedat has written many books and there are many videos regarding this matter. www.ipci.co.za. A later authority on the issue would be Zakir Naik but in my opinion Ahmed Deedat would be more interesting as Ahmed Deedat has himself studied at a formal Institution of teaching Christianity in Durban. Mr Naik himself did not study under any Christian Authority at all. (I stand to be corrected on that though)

If on the other hand you are looking at the average layman muslims point of view then we don't believe in Christianity based on the fact that we accept The Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) as the last and final of all Prophets. In turn we have the Quran which gives us a different version of Jesus (PBUH).

If you want to entangle the average Muslim into this discussion - our most simplified answer is We believe in what the Quran tells us.

If you want more intricate answers in Comparative Religion then I have given you two scholars of Authority.

I am primarily looking for personal answers from "the average Muslim" as you put it. Of course, backing up one's response with sources is always welcome. Regardless, thank you for your well-thought-out reply.

It shows clear signs of being a man-made, artificial, simple ancient people mentality religion, if you actually look at the texts.

Would you mind elaborating a bit? Examples would be helpful. Thank you. :)

[Scimitar]

Which means that many of his points were/are refuted. Much the same as his protege Zakir Naik...

I've yet to see these so called refutations stick - they're like water off a duck's back.

Please explain why he is a "breath of fresh air"...

When a Christian theologian does his masters in theology and realizes that Christianity is a punk scam parading as a religion, things start to get really interesting - that's why!!!

Christianity is European Hinduism! With lesser gods, but essentially still parading the same theological hurdles which are self contradictory and require huuuge dogmatic investment!

Which is why Paul Williams chose Islam, after researching it... and I'll be filming a second series to the Paul Williams show next year in sh'Allah.

I'd like to know why you think Christianity is theologically sound and not self contradictory - and I'd like to see if you can do this without making appeals to emotion ;)

peace

[Insaanah]

Welcome to the forum randomcitizen1,

What is/are your greatest objection(s) to Christianity and why?

These aren't objections as such, but more the problems with Christianity:

"Christianity" as we know it today, should actually be called "Paulism", because more of it is to do with the teachings of Paul than with the teachings of Christ (peace be upon him).

There is a gospel according to Matthew, gospel of Mark, gospel of John, gospel of Luke, but no gospel of Jesus (peace be upon him).

If God tells us He is One, but we can't talk about One without mentioning the number three, then clearly something is wrong.

If all of mankind is eternally ****ed for something they didn't do at the beginning of the world, then something is clearly wrong.

If God can't forgive, but has to beget a son and have him killed in a torturous death to forgive mankind, then clearly something is wrong.

In Islam, we have no such problems. The way of life called Islam is not named after a person or place, but is a state of being that anyone can enter into, namely submission to God.

The scripture is fully preserved, no versions or editions, and is 100% the word of God.

God is One, in every sense of the word. No persons, partners or sons.

We believe that God forgave Adam (peace be on him) for eating from the tree, and that that was a lesson to us that should we err, and sincerely repent and seek forgiveness, God is Forgiving and Merciful.

Peace.

[Thekafir]

When a Christian theologian does his masters in theology and realizes that Christianity is a punk scam parading as a religion, things start to get really interesting - that's why!!!

I understand you desire to want him to be "right" about Christianity. I could just as equally cite Muslims who convert away from Islam... and now are Christian apologists.

Which is why Paul Williams chose Islam, after researching it... and I'll be filming a second series to the Paul Williams show next year in sh'Allah.

Maybe I am missing some sort of recent news but... um... are you aware of this?
Attachment 6312

I'd like to know why you think Christianity is theologically sound and not self contradictory - and I'd like to see if you can do this without making appeals to emotion

What I want to know is why Muslims place their faith in a book that is a single sourced internally contradictory, historically inaccurate, scientifically wrong (I am a science teacher BTW), and "recited" by someone as morally questionable (and that is being polite as I know what I am writing this) as Muhammad???

I appreciate this board. I have looked for years to find something to engage in honest discussions with Muslims - but have been banned from all of them as I am critical of their prophet and beliefs... all the while I am just trying to understand the root reasons for their faith in Muhammad...

Looking forward to your response...

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"Christianity" as we know it today, should actually be called "Paulism", because more of it is to do with the teachings of Paul than with the teachings of Christ (peace be upon him).

IF I were to go through the Gospels of Matthew, Mark (which is what Peter recorded, and John... and even James... Revelation... 1st and 2nd PEter... 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John... using only verse from those books... would you want to debate what Christ taught?
We both know you won't... because all of those books affirm facts that contradict what is in the Quran.

There is a gospel according to Matthew, gospel of Mark, gospel of John, gospel of Luke, but no gospel of Jesus (peace be upon him).

You obviously don't know what the word "gospel" means...

If God tells us He is One, but we can't talk about One without mentioning the number three, then clearly something is wrong.

Do you know what the Shema actually means in Hebrew?

If God can't forgive, but has to beget a son and have him killed in a torturous death to forgive mankind, then clearly something is wrong.

Do you understand the consequences of sin? The consequence of sin is death --- in hell --- God just simply can't forgive a sin without a payment just as a "just" judge cannot let a murderer free for not killing everyone else in the world... there has to be a payment for those sins...

We believe that God forgave Adam (peace be on him) for eating from the tree, and that that was a lesson to us that should we err, and sincerely repent and seek forgiveness, God is Forgiving and Merciful

God forgave Adam??? Really??? Then why didn't Adam, according to the Quran stay in heaven with God? Adam and Eve, according to the Quran 2:36...

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Would you mind elaborating a bit? Examples would be helpful. Thank you. :)

Am thinking the name Paul will be mentioned several times.. and the Council of Nicaea will be described as the body of people who deified Christ.... maybe I'm wrong... but have been debating this issue for years now and know the standard responses...

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This video describes the major problems we find with the charge from Muslims that claim the Bible is corrupted:

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Am looking forward to the replies :statisfie

[Scimitar]

I understand you desire to want him to be "right" about Christianity.

You're mistaken, I don't make appeals to emotion, I leave that to the Christians lol.

I could just as equally cite Muslims who convert away from Islam... and now are Christian apologists.

please do, but first go to loonwatch and see if they ever were Muslims in the first place ;) besides, i thought this thread was about Objections to Christianity??

Maybe I am missing some sort of recent news but... um... are you aware of this?
Attachment 6312

More than aware lol, what you are unaware of though, is that Paul Williams came back to Islam, and is a friend of mine ;) the Paul Williams show was shot this summer, and I will be shooting a second series with him early next year in sh'Allah. He's definitely a Muslim!! And I'll be at the park later today filming him asking so called Christian experts on Islam, about the articles of faith in order to show how badly these evangelical types have it wrong!!!

What I want to know is why Muslims place their faith in a book that is a single sourced internally contradictory, historically inaccurate, scientifically wrong (I am a science teacher BTW), and "recited" by someone as morally questionable (and that is being polite as I know what I am writing this) as Muhammad???

Wait, this thread is titled "objections to Christianity" - not Islam lol... stay on topic bruv!!!

I appreciate this board. I have looked for years to find something to engage in honest discussions with Muslims - but have been banned from all of them as I am critical of their prophet and beliefs... all the while I am just trying to understand the root reasons for their faith in Muhammad...

Looking forward to your response...

I have no idea why you made the edits so I have not responded to those. If there is something about Christianity that makes you feel uncomfortable, then please do share and maybe we can help God willing... As for honest discussions with Muslims - hey I'm all entertaining this idea with you in all honesty - but you have to remain honest yourself and not make this thread about something other than objections to Christianity ;) otherwise, this thread fails to stay on topic, savvy?

peace

[Supernova]

Do you believe that Ahmed Deedat to be an authoritative source for the critique of Christianity? Zakir Naik? ThX :-)

I used the word "interesting".
For me to know who is more authoritative between both of them means that I myself would have to be authoritative on the subject to judge between the two. As I am not an authority on the subject - it will mean I do not know who is more authoritative.

As I have stated that Ahmed Deedat had studied the Christian faith in doctrine under Christian Scholars. This is one of the reasons that in all his world wide live debates - never did any Christian Scholar question or levy this against him. So Academically he would be more likely to be sound. Having said that - it doesn't mean that a lack of studying under an institution will nullify anything else that any other scholars have to put forward.

[air]

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيم

Why God in Christian concept had to became human in order to pay sinners, why not the sinners who pay for their own sin, I don't like that concept, I don't like someone who do cruel thing to me, will be forgiven by the death of someone else. Actually I have a lot objections.

[Futuwwa]

What I want to know is why Christians place their faith in a book that is a single sourced internally contradictory, historically inaccurate, scientifically wrong

Fixed that for you.

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Allah did not create us to worship us .

Let us say, He decided to create us at point T1 in time. Now since time has no beginning and God was always present, hence time T1 or any other time T2, T3 etc are equidistant from origin of time which is infinity away. So if He can change his mood at time T1, there is no reason why He cannot change His mood at other time-points like T2, T3 etc. Also, there is no guarantee that He did not create and destroy us or other species at other times BEFORE time T1 of this creation.

Now all abrahmic faiths claim that Allah created us so that we could worship Him also believe that Allah is perfect. Now if Allah is perfect, it means that at ALL points in time, He is equally perfect and operates as per the SAME laws. Perfection implies that there can be NO single-point inconsistency in God’ habits.

THUS, if Allah created us at time T1, He HAS to keep creating us at other time periods also IF He is perfect. Now He cannot create us twice! So if He creates us, He has to also destroy us so as to create us again.

Now if he continues to create and destroy us, how can He ensure that we worship Him when we have been destroyed. This means that either mood of Allah fluctuates with time, OR, He has NOT created us for worship.

Class exercise: Spot the unsubstantiated premises.

[Thekafir]

More than aware lol, what you are unaware of though, is that Paul Williams came back to Islam, and is a friend of mine ;) the Paul Williams show was shot this summer, and I will be shooting a second series with him early next year in sh'Allah. He's definitely a Muslim!! And I'll be at the park later today filming him asking so called Christian experts on Islam, about the articles of faith in order to show how badly these evangelical types have it wrong!!!

I am truly ignorant of the teachings... etc... of this man. I just did a google search and this is what came up. But his history is confusing... He was a Christian... um... scholar - studying Christianity at the "graduate" level... which caused him to revert to Islam... and then... when having to actually practice Islam.. he can't take the "pain" more or less of having to fast... which causes him to leave Islam... making him an apostate... then... now you are telling me that he has returned to the straight path and all is good.
This raises several questions --- but won't bother asking as you seem to want to move to questioning Christianity without defending Islam (this is the "comparative religions thread? Yes? So what kinda exemption is Islam afforded when comparing? - just asking)...
1. If Islam was so hard then... why is it OK now?
2. Where in the Sahria is this permissible?
3. Where is he spared the wrath of your co-coreligionists? Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done."... and.... Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death."

I am honestly looking forward to your replies!!!

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Fixed that for you.

Did you want examples or are you simply throwing stones at glass houses?

1. Christianity is not single sourced.
2. The Quran is a single sourced document.
3. It is historically inaccurate.
4. The Quran is scientifically incorrect.
5. The Quran is internally contradictory.
Which one would you like me to start with?

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Why God in Christian concept had to became human in order to pay sinners....

The penalty for sin is death... punishment in hell. Can you pay that price?

No. That is the point!!! That is your answer. If you are going to pay that price then you are going to spend an eternity in hell.... God paid the penalty for you.... all you have to do is accept that payment through the death of Jesus Christ...

why not the sinners who pay for their own sin,

If sinners had to pay the price for their own sins then they would go to hell to pay that price... are you willing to do that?

I don't like that concept,

The concept of God loving you so much that He is willing to pay the penalty He demands? The alternative is????

[Captain Howdy]

Class exercise: Spot the unsubstantiated premises.

We have not received any commands by Ishwara that we worship him. Just because you claim it , we are not gonna do it .

[air]

1. Christianity is not single sourced.
2. The Quran is a single sourced document.
3. It is historically inaccurate.
4. The Quran is scientifically incorrect.
5. The Quran is internally contradictory.
Which one would you like me to start with?

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The penalty for sin is death... punishment in hell. Can you pay that price?

No. That is the point!!! That is your answer. If you are going to pay that price then you are going to spend an eternity in hell.... God paid the penalty for you.... all you have to do is accept that payment through the death of Jesus Christ...


If sinners had to pay the price for their own sins then they would go to hell to pay that price... are you willing to do that?


The concept of God loving you so much that He is willing to pay the penalty He demands? The alternative is????

So do you mean it's ok to be a sinner, since God already paid my sin? what about if by chance I encounter with some schene like a man rape a woman, should I let him doing it, since there's no consequences for the man or for me if we accept the death of Jesus Christ? will God still loving me not helping the woman but enjoying the rape scene?

For me, I can't accept this, especially if the woman is my relative, I wan't the rapper and the one who doing nothing while actually they can to be punished, well of course there's always consequences that I might be the one who in hell, I don't want to be in hell, so that's why I'll try my best to become a best Muslim as I can, and avoid to do a sin.

Since you said that your concept of God is loving us so much, then why you hate and insult (from what I read from your posts) our prophet Muhammad PBUH so much? where's your hatred is come from?

[Ümit]

the greatest objections for me is this:
The trinity of God. God does not change entities. he does not need to.
Jesus was not God's son other than we all are sons and daughters of God.
Jesus was just a creation of God...like we all are.
Jesus was born without a father. This does not mean that God was therefore his father...it only means that a miracle happened at that moment.
Adam was created without a father and mother....so God must then be both mother and father of Adam?

There is only one God...he was not created...He only created the earth and all living creatures.
from the beginning of time when we humans lived on this Earth, we have been evolving...but we always had some connection with God.
He send down prophets to guide us on the right path on a regularly basis. some of them meant for a specific group of people...some of them were globally prophets.
How much prophets exactly have been sent down, nobody knows...might be thousands or hundreds of thousands.
every time we wandered off the right path creating a new religion...he would send down another prophet to guide us back to the right path.

one of these prophets was Jesus (pbuh). Jesus guided us back to the true religion.

He did not die on the cross. in fact, he did not die at all. this is one of the points where christians are mistaken. They do not see the miracle that happened here.
When Judas betrayed Jesus by pointing out Jesus' hiding place to the enemy, he went in to take Jesus out and at that moment a miracle took place:
Jesus raised to heaven (without dying) and Judas' body changed to resemble Jesus.
as a result, Judas was arrested and crusified.

Jesus is still alive and waiting for his time to come back to Earth and fight against Dajjal...(the antichrist as you call)
after winning even Jesus will die like all living creatures.

by accepting Jesus as a God, people wandered off the right path again, creating a new religion called Christianity.
That is when Muhammed (pbuh) was sent down to straighten that mistake. This is the last prophet ever who is sent down for us.
Muhammad (pbuh) is the seal of prophets. there will be no other prophets being sent down after him....except of course for Jesus who will fight Dajjal.

the true religion is like this:
- God (there is only one... no other creature is like him)
- Prophets. human beings in direct control of God. they are the only humans who are totally sin-free because they are in direct control of God.
Of course some of them made some minor "mistakes". but those mistakes have been rectified right away.
- Humans.

a message of God will be brought down by angel Gabriel (as) to the prophets, and the prophets dictate it exactly like that to us humans. There cannot be an error in this path, so the dictations are 100% accurate.
We call these messages, the holy books. Quran and Thorah are one of them.
Then we have people who have known the prophet personall, or who have witnessed him doing, acting saying something in a certain way...so they reported this.
these reports are called hadeeth. Hadeeth can be categorized differently in how strong they are...and not all of them are evenly accurate.

The problem with christianity is that if you claim that Jesus is in fact God, a shift takes place because you automatically say that all people who have been in direct contact with Jesus are prophets. everything these so called "prophets" have been recording about what Jesus have said and done is then automatically a direct message of God and therefore a part of the Bible. Christianity has no hadeeth because the knows hadeeth have suddenly become a part of the holy book.

This is why the Bible has a lot of contradictions in it. What you are reading is not the true message of God. it is actually only hadeeths of Jesus which are partially correct.

another reasons for the contradictions in the Bible are modifications to it and of course the translation.
We know there are different versions of the Bible.
We know there are different translations of the Bible.
Even if you compare two different languages of the king James version of the Bible, you will run into a loss or change of information.
words do not have the same load in different languages.
Therefore a Holy book should always remail in its original language. You are allowed to translate it, but then, it will be a normal book and not a holy book anymore.

That is why the Quran is always in Arabic.
there is only one version of it...and in only one language.

These are my greatest objections against Christianity.
I am a sunni Hanafi Muslim.

If something is not clear enough, please ask and I will try to explain.

[Futuwwa]

Did you want examples or are you simply throwing stones at glass houses?

1. Christianity is not single sourced.
2. The Quran is a single sourced document.
3. It is historically inaccurate.
4. The Quran is scientifically incorrect.
5. The Quran is internally contradictory.
Which one would you like me to start with?

Whichever floats your boat.

[Futuwwa]

Do you understand the consequences of sin? The consequence of sin is death --- in hell --- God just simply can't forgive a sin without a payment just as a "just" judge cannot let a murderer free for not killing everyone else in the world... there has to be a payment for those sins...

If God cannot do that, then he is not omnipotent. Neither can he be the prime mover / original cause of everything, nor the source of objective morality. Rather, there must be some cosmic force of justice that is above God, that even God is constrained by and, as a corollary, determines an objective morality independent of God. A cosmic force that, curiously enough, seems to have no other effect than constraining God. If you are a science teacher as you say, you should know what an ad hoc hypothesis is.

[Grandad]

Hello ‘Thekafir’.

Here is my understanding of the Christian doctrine of Redemption:

Through revelation we know that when Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) created Adam and Eve they received, as part of their human nature, sanctifying grace; that which: ‘Gives us acceptance into the kinship of God.’ (Council of Trent: Enchiridion; article 796).

The Bible teaches that Adam and Eve disobeyed the Exalted, and in so doing committed a personal sin. This sin, according to the Church, affected human nature itself, depriving it of its original and natural sanctifying grace. This deprivation of sanctifying grace is called ‘Original Sin’.

It is important to realise that Original Sin is called ‘sin’ in an analogical, rather than literal sense. We are not born with sin in the normal sense of the word; rather, we are born without our original holiness; without sanctifying grace. In other words, we are born with a ‘fallen human nature’. The remedy, according to the Church, is baptism, which sanctifies our soul and in so doing ‘washes away original sin’ by restoring our souls to their original state.

Adam’s sin separated man from union with Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). We were no longer at one with Him, as He had created us to be. In order to satisfy His’ justice a pure and acceptable sacrifice had to be made; and this needed to be the Exalted himself. This is why He became incarnate - so that He might offer Himself, as a sacrifice in our place, and thus enable humankind to become re-united with Him.

It is important to realise that redemption is not the same as salvation. One can be redeemed and not be saved. Christ's redemption opened the doors of our prison, but we must each make the decision to walk through that door. We do this only through baptism, and then by recognising and accepting what Christ has done for us – the greatest act of love known to man. If we do not accept the grace which flows from his sacrifice, we remain in our prison and we loose salvation.


According to the Catholic Catechism the doctrine of ‘Original Sin’ is an essential truth of the faith (‘De fide’): ‘With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story's ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.’ (Part One; Section Two; Paragraph 7).

This is a very interesting statement. What is being admitted here is that the Tanakh contains no reference whatsoever to the concept of ‘original sin’. Indeed, this concept is alien to Judaism to this very day.

When a Catholic, I was only too aware that we: ‘….cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.’ (Catechism: Part One; Section Two; Paragraph 7). I accepted - without hesitation - that: ‘All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners….sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned." (Catechism: Part One; Section Two; Paragraph 7); and that the Church, following St Paul, has always taught that Adam: ‘Transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul".’ (Part One; Section Two; Paragraph 7).

When asked to explain how this ‘transmission’ of 'original sin' takes place I replied in the traditional manner: ‘It’s a mystery we cannot fully understand.’ I did acknowledge, however, the Church’s teaching that it is transmitted by the sexual act; that it to say, it is a sin: ‘contracted’ and not ‘committed’ - a state and not an act.’ (Catechism: Part One; Section Two; Paragraph 7).

Islam and Judaism teach that to sin is merely a part of life. None of us is perfect, and each of us has an inclination to sin. Both religions teach that no act is sinful unless the person knows it to be wrong, and has wilful intent. But the knowledge of good and evil did not come to Adam (or to Eve) until after the event. Only then did he realise his mistake. He was like a child who hears an obscene word for the very first time and - in all innocence - repeats it to his parents (usually in full voice, and in front of the neighbours). What parent would punish his child for such innocent behaviour - still less punish, many years later, his grandchildren for the origin ‘sin’ of their dad?

Muslims do not believe that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) behaved in this way; and neither do the Jews. Only the Christians believe this - and not all of them either (Unitarians, for example, do not).

The Prophets of the Tanakh knew nothing of ‘original sin’; and so had nothing to say about it. The only biblical person cited by the Catholic Church in its attempt to justify its doctrine of original sin - and to support its doctrine of Redemption through Yeshua (radi Allahu ‘anhu) - is Paul.

This man was not a prophet. He was not a disciple of Yeshua. He never knew him; never heard him preach or teach. Those who did hear him speak have nothing to say on the matter of ‘origin sin’. How can this be? The only answer that makes any sense is that Yeshua did not teach it. This is not surprising, since he was a Tanakh believing Jew; a rabbi no less.

We must conclude that the concept of ‘original sin’ is an invention of Paul; a justification for the second of his inventions: the deification of a man.

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According to the Church, Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. In its Fifth Session, the Council of Trent issued the following decrees concerning this sin:

‘If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema: - whereas he contradicts the apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.’

‘If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam, - which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propagation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, - is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, sanctification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema.’

‘If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers' wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting, - whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, - let him be anathema.’ (The Canons and Decrees of the Sacred and Oecumenical Council of Trent: Trans. J. Waterworth).

It is perfectly clear from these decrees that the sin of Adam (‘original sin’) does not belong just to him, but is given to each and every one of us - adult and infant alike - to be our very own.

As you know, the effect of original sin is said to be removed by baptism: ‘There is no other way to come to the aid (of little children) than the sacrament of Baptism by which they are snatched from the power of the devil and adopted as children of God’ (Decree for the Jacobites at the Council of Florence: DS 1349); and again: ‘If any one denies, that, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only razed, or not imputed; let him be anathema.’ (The Canons and Decrees of the Sacred and Oecumenical Council of Trent: Trans. J. Waterworth).

Note that baptism is claimed to be the only means by with the unbaptised child can be: ‘snatched from the power of the devil.’

The Church teaches that those who die in a state of ‘original sin’ are excluded from the Beatific Vision.

This doctrine was declared by both the 2nd General Council of Lyons (1274) and the Council of Florence (1438-1445).

The Catholic Encyclopaedia defines the Beatific Vision as: ‘The immediate knowledge of God which the angelic spirits and the souls of the just enjoy in Heaven. It is called "vision" to distinguish it from the mediate knowledge of God which the human mind may attain in the present life. And since in beholding God face to face the created intelligence finds perfect happiness, the vision is termed "beatific".’

To keep it simple: Infants who die unbaptised do not enter Heaven.

In 2007 - alarmed by the number of infants dying unbaptised (including those dying by abortion) the Church set up an International Theological Commission. This Commission published a study paper entitled: ‘The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised.’

The conclusion of this study was that: ‘There are theological and liturgical reasons to hope that infants who die without baptism may be saved and brought into eternal happiness, even if there is not an explicit teaching on this question found in Revelation. However, none of the considerations proposed in this text to motivate a new approach to the question may be used to negate the necessity of baptism, nor to delay the conferral of the sacrament. Rather, there are reasons to hope that God will save these infants precisely because it was not possible to do for them that what would have been most desirable - to baptize them in the faith of the Church and incorporate them visibly into the Body of Christ.’

The authors of the report state that: ‘When reflecting theologically on the salvation of infants who die without Baptism, the Church respects the hierarchy of truths.’

Let me remind you of one particular ‘truth’: ‘Those who die in a state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision (De Fide).’

No one appears to have any problem when this notion is applied to adults. They have a terrible problem (understandably so) when the same notion is applied to infants.

If unbaptised babies don’t go to heaven, where else do they go?

When I was a teenager - and a new Catholic - my fellow believers used to speak (quite often) about something they called ‘limbo’; the limbus infantium (or puerorum) - that boundary of Hell that is said to be the permanent status of the unbaptised who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins, but not having been freed of original sin. The Catholic Encyclopaedia has this to say about it:

‘The New Testament contains no definite statement of a positive kind regarding the lot of those who die in original sin without being burdened with grievous personal guilt. But, by insisting on the absolute necessity of being "born again of water and the Holy Ghost" (John 3:5) for entry into the kingdom of heaven, Christ clearly enough implies that men are born into this world in a state of sin, and St. Paul’s teaching to the same effect is quite explicit (Romans 5:12 sqq).

‘On the other hand, it is clear from Scripture and Catholic tradition that the means of regeneration provided for this life do not remain available after death, so that those dying unregenerate are eternally excluded from the supernatural happiness of the beatific vision (John 9:4, Luke 12:40, 16:19 sqq; 2 Corinthians 5:10.). The question therefore arises as to what, in the absence of a clear positive revelation on the subject, we ought in conformity with Catholic principles to believe regarding the eternal lot of such person. Now it may confidently be said that, as the result of centuries of speculation on the subject, we ought to believe that these souls enjoy, and will eternally enjoy, a state of perfect natural happiness; and this is what Catholics usually mean when they speak of the limbus infantium, the "children's limbo."’

‘The death of an unbaptised infant presents Catholic theologians with a poignant problem. The dawn star of Christian culture had hardly risen when men first raised the question, and it has continued to echo through the centuries. There are reasons enough for the persistent reappearance of the difficulty. The fate of an unbaptised child is closely tied to several highly volatile questions: original sin, the necessity of baptism, the salvific will of God. Each of these issues is a vital nerve in the body of Catholic doctrine, and each can be studied with clinical precision in the person of an unbaptised child.’

End of quote.

There is a disconnect between the Magisterium of the Church and the views of many - perhaps most - Catholics, especially the laity. The Second Vatican Council was asked to rule on this matter - to overturn the official doctrines and canons of past Councils - but this was declined.

I have searched in vain for an official declaration - approved by the Magisterium - saying that the various doctrines I have quoted need no longer be believed; that it is no longer a 'heresy' to speak against them; or a cause for excommunication (the censure for denying a 'de fide' doctrine). If any Christian (or Muslim) can find one, please let me have its source.

Most of the world’s people die unbaptised. I accept without reservation that all who die - baptised or not - are subject to the love, mercy and compassion of the Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). I also accept that His love; His mercy; and His compassion are without limit; given to all people - including Adam; thus ruling out any need for ‘redemption’, as taught by the Church.

Islam teaches that it is not possible for a new-born baby to be anything other than sinless; that no child has inherited the sin of its parents: ‘Say: “Should I seek a Lord other than Allāh, when He is the Lord of all things?” Each soul is responsible for its own actions; no soul will bear the burden of another. You will all return to your Lord in the end, and He will tell you the truth about your differences.’ (Al-An‘am: 164).

This verse finds its counterparts in the Bible: 'Parents may not be put to death for their children, nor children for parents, but each must be put to death for his own crime.’ (Deuteronomy 24:16); and again: 'Now, you say: "Why doesn't the son bear his father's guilt?" If the son has been law-abiding and upright, has kept all my laws and followed them, most certainly he will live. The one who has sinned is the one who must die; a son is not to bear his father's guilt, nor a father his son's guilt. The upright will be credited with his uprightness, and the wicked with his wickedness. If the wicked, however, renounces all the sins he has committed, respects my laws and is law-abiding and upright, he will most certainly live; he will not die. None of the crimes he committed will be remembered against him from then on; he will most certainly live because of his upright actions. Would I take pleasure in the death of the wicked - declares the Lord Yahweh - and not prefer to see him renounce his wickedness and live?’ (Ezekiel: 18: 19-23).

The message conveyed by these verses is clear enough: Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla), who is Just, will never punish people for the sins of others.

Some Christians argue that since the Exalted is infinite, our sins have an infinite effect. They would need to demonstrate how a finite act, carried out by a finite individual can have an infinite effect.

You claim that the Exalted: ‘…just simply can't forgive a sin without a payment just as a "just" judge cannot let a murderer free for not killing everyone else in the world... there has to be a payment for those sins...’

Not according to Islam. Several years ago I was visiting my Muslim family in Rabat (Morocco). I was not then a Muslim. One night, I was struck by a van being driven (without lights) through a pedestrian precinct. After hospital treatment I was driven back to my son’s home. Waiting outside were two detectives. The senior of these detectives approached me. His first words were: ‘Do you pardon him (the driver)?’ I said that I did; and apart from making a statement, that was the end of the matter.

I found it very odd at the time. It was only later - after I had learned more of Islam - that I knew why I had been asked that question. In the Sharia - which all Muslim’s accept as the very Law of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) - mercy overcomes justice. If that driver had set out to murder me, and had been successful, then the question: ‘Do you pardon him?’ would have been asked of my wife. An affirmative answer would have ended the matter.

According to the Bible, forgiveness is nothing less than the act of pardoning somebody for a mistake or wrongdoing. To pardon someone is to release them from actual punishment (as when a prisoner is pardoned and released from prison; or from facing punishment). In other words, the victim graciously absolves the offender, pronouncing him blameless for his past misdeeds and releases him from all obligations to provide restitution or to suffer any further punishment.

In the Tanakh, the Hebrew word most often translated as ‘forgiveness’ is ‘nasa/nasah’. It means ‘to lift’, as in, ‘to lift someone’s punishment from off of him.’ Joseph’s brothers, for example, beg him to forgive them, and not to bear a ‘grudge against us and pay us back in full for all the wrong which we did.’ (Genesis 50:15-17).

In the New Testament the Greek word most often translated as forgive is ‘aphiemi’; meaning ‘to send away’, as if ‘to send away someone’s punishment’.

Biblical forgiveness is the release from punishment, or from the obligations of restitution.

St Thomas Aquinas writes: ‘It was not necessary that God should become incarnate for the restoration of human nature. For God with His omnipotent power could have restored human nature in many other ways.’ (Summa Theologica: Part Three; L.1, C.3).

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Concerning Adam:

It is the position of the Muslims that where the Bible and the Qur’an agree; there is no problem. That where the Bible contradicts the Qur’an; then the Qur’an takes precedence. That where there is neither agreement nor disagreement; then the matter is open for discussion, and Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) knows best!

The Bible and the Qur’an agree that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla), created both Adam and Eve; but they differ as to what happened next.

In Genesis, as you know, the Exalted prohibits both Adam and Eve from eating the fruits of the forbidden tree. However, the snake seduces Eve, and persuades her to eat from it: 'Now, the snake was the most subtle of all the wild animals that Yahweh God had made. It asked the woman: “Did God really say you were not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?” The woman answered the snake: “We may eat the fruit of the trees in the garden. But of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, ‘You must not eat it, nor touch it, under pain of death.’” Then the snake said to the woman: “No! You will not die! God knows in fact that the day you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods, knowing good from evil.”. The woman saw that the tree was good to eat and pleasing to the eye, and that it was enticing for the wisdom that it could give. So she took some of its fruit and ate it.’ (Genesis; 3: 1-6).

We are then told that Eve, in turn, seduced Adam to eat with her; and that when Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla), rebuked Adam for what he did, he put all the blame on Eve: ‘(God asked): “Have you been eating from the tree I forbade you to eat?” The man replied: “It was the woman you put with me; she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”’ (Verses 11-12).

Consequently, the Exalted said to Eve: ‘I shall give you intense pain in childbearing, you will give birth to your children in pain.’ (Verse 16).

The Qur’an presents a different account: ‘But you, Adam, and your wife live in the Garden. Both of you eat whatever you like, but do not go near this tree or you will become wrongdoers. Satan whispered to them so as to expose their nakedness, which had been hidden from them. He said: “Your Lord only forbade you this tree to prevent you becoming angels or immortals,” and he swore to them: “I am giving you sincere advice” - he lured them with lies. Their nakedness became exposed to them when they had eaten from the tree: they began to put together leaves from the Garden to cover themselves. Their Lord called to them: “Did I not forbid you to approach that tree? Did I not warn you that Satan was your sworn enemy?” (Al-A‘raf: 19-23).

You will see that the Qur’an - in contrast to the Bible - places equal blame on both Adam and Eve for their mistake. Nowhere in the Qur’an do we find even the slightest suggestion that Eve tempted Adam to eat from the tree; or even that she had eaten before him. In the Qur’an, Eve is not a temptress; not a seducer; and not a deceiver. Moreover, she is not told that she (and by implication, all women after her) would suffer intense pain in childbearing as a direct result of her actions.

Adam and Eve committed a sin. That much is clear. It was not Adam alone. When challenged they replied: ‘Our Lord, we have wronged our souls: if You do not forgive us and have mercy, we shall be lost.’ (Al-A‘raf: 23).

Muslims do not accept that ‘mankind suffers the consequences of Adam and Eve's sin’; and the reason they do not accept this is that the pair were forgiven.

Islam places great emphasis on the nature of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)’s forgiveness - not just for Adam and Eve - but for each of us. According to Islamic theology all will stand before Him on the Day of Judgment. Each of us will be given a record of our lives. Those whose book is placed in their right hand will be admitted to Paradise; and those whose book is placed in their left will not.

It is a tradition that a record of good deeds is made straight away; but that a record of bad deeds is delayed for some hours, to allow for repentance. Even when a sin is recorded it can be erased by sincere and genuine repentance (tawbah). Not only does tawbah wipe out an evil deed, it transforms that deed into a good one: ‘Those who repent, believe, and do good deeds, Allāh will change the evil deeds of such people into good ones. He is most forgiving, most merciful’ (Al-Furqan: 70).

Every day of their lives - many times a day - Muslims speak the words: ‘The Lord of Mercy’; ‘The Giver of Mercy’; ‘The Compassionate’; ‘The Merciful’. These are the Beloved‘s Names. We did not give them to Him, He chose them for Himself. Of all His Names these are His favorite. That is why we are asked to speak them so often - so that we do not forget Who it is that loves us; Who it is that binds us to Himself with ties of tenderness, mercy and forgiveness.

As you know, the truth that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla), not only forgives sin, but wipes them out is proclaimed in the Bible also: ‘Yahweh is tenderness and pity, slow to anger and rich in faithful love; His indignation does not last for ever, nor His resentment remain for all time; He does not treat us as our sins deserve, nor repay us as befits our offences. As the height of Heaven above earth, so strong is His faithful love for those who fear Him. As the distance of east from west, so far from us does He put our faults. As tenderly as a father treats his children, so Yahweh treats those who fear Him; He knows of what we are made, He remembers that we are dust.’ (Psalm 103: 8-14).

Christians and Muslims agree that the love, mercy and compassion of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla), is the greatest of things, without which none of us could stand, not even for the briefest of moments. A person could spend an eternity of lifetimes in contemplation of this truth and not touch the depth and breadth of it.

According to the Muslims, Adam and Eve were not ‘thrown out of the Garden’ in punishment, as you suggest. The Qur'an has made it clear that God accepted their repentance and pardoned them. His command that they leave the Garden for Earth brought to fulfilment the purpose for which they were created in the first place.

The Muslim is bound to accept that the Qur’anic account is the correct one. The Christian, of course, will disagree; and that does not present a problem. It does not present a problem because Islam accepts that where there is difference of option a person has the right to act upon his conscience - having looked at all the options, and having make an honest judgement.

Muslims believe that Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) did indeed choose a different way of dealing with Adam – the way of forgiveness: ‘Then Adam received some words from his Lord and He accepted his repentance: He is the Ever Relenting, the Most Merciful.’ (Al-Baqara: 37).

The sin of Adam was wiped out. This act of Mercy ruled out any need for universal redemption.

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My understanding of the Trinity:

There is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

These three persons are one God not three gods, because there is one substance of the three, one essence, one nature, one Godhead, one immensity, one eternity.

Within the Godhead the Father is entirely within the Son and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Son is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Host Spirit. The Holy Spirit is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Son. In other words, the three Persons form a single unity, indivisible and permanent. They are not three persons standing side by side, so to speak; such that one could join with a human body, to the total exclusion of the others.

The Second Person of the Trinity (the ‘Divine Logos) is united ‘hypostatically’ to Christ. This union took place at the moment of his conception. In the ‘hypostatic union’ each of Yeshua’s two natures (divine and human) continue untransformed, unimpaired and unmixed with the other; and this ‘union’ will never end.

Yeshua is perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity; true God and true man, of a rational soul and a body; consubstantial with the Father as regards his divinity, consubstantial with us as regards his humanity; like us in all respects except for sin; begotten before the ages from the Father, and in the last days the same born according to his humanity for us and our salvation from the virgin Mary.


'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…… And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…..' (John 1: verses 1 and 14: KJV).

The Church teaches that Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) is 'absolutely immutable'; that in Him there can be no change whatsoever. Not to the slightest degree. This is because He is pure spirit, pure actuality, with no potential for change. Here lies the first of my problems with the doctrine of the Trinity:

How can the 'Second Person of the Trinity' - pure spirit, pure actuality, with no potential for change (none whatsoever) - become flesh (which is forever subject to change) without violating the Exalted's immutability; without a change to His very nature?

And here is the second:

Thomas Aquinas writes: 'All confess that God is omnipotent; but it seems difficult to explain in what His omnipotence precisely consists: for there may be doubt as to the precise meaning of the word 'all' when we say that God can do all things. If, however, we consider the matter aright, since power is said in reference to possible things, this phrase, "God can do all things," is rightly understood to mean that God can do all things that are possible; and for this reason He is said to be omnipotent.

'Therefore, that which implies being and non-being at the same time is repugnant to the idea of an absolutely possible thing, within the scope of the divine omnipotence. For such cannot come under the divine omnipotence, not because of any defect in the power of God, but because it has not the nature of a feasible or possible thing. Therefore, everything that does not imply a contradiction in terms is numbered amongst those possible things, in respect of which God is called omnipotent: whereas whatever implies contradiction does not come within the scope of divine omnipotence, because it cannot have the aspect of possibility.' (Summa Theologica: Part 1; Question 25; Article 3).

There are certain 'intrinsically impossible' things that even an omnipotent God cannot do.

First, He cannot do anything that would contradict his nature. For example, He cannot sin, since to sin: ‘Is to fall short of a perfect action; hence to be able to sin is to be able to fall short in action, which is repugnant to omnipotence.' (Summa Theologica: Part 1; Question 25; Article 3).

Second, He cannot do anything that would be logically impossible. He cannot, for example, create a three-sided triangle; or a man who is, at the same time, a donkey; for in the statement that a man is a donkey 'the predicate is altogether incompatible with the subject.' (Summa Theologica: Part 1; Question 25; Article 3).

C. S. Lewis writes: '(God’s) Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say "God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it," you have not succeeded in saying anything about God.

'Meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words "God can."… It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.' (The Problem of Pain).

Note the words: 'It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; NOT BECAUSE HIS POWER MEETS AN OBSTACLE, BUT BECAUSE NONSENSE REMAINS NONSENSE EVEN WHEN WE TALK IT ABOUT GOD.'

I have said before: the Church teaches that Yeshua is 'wholly man and wholly God'; and claims that this condition is ongoing, and permanent.

There is another way of expressing this teaching: Yeshua is both wholly man and wholly not-man (God, after all, is not a man); and he will always be both wholly man and wholly not-man.

Look again at Aquinas' words: 'that which implies being and non-being at the same time is repugnant to the idea of an absolutely possible thing, within the scope of the divine omnipotence.'

Expressed somewhat differently: That which is 'A' and 'not-A' at one and the same time is….. 'repugnant to the idea of an absolutely possible thing, within the scope of the divine omnipotence.'

This is the law of non-contradiction.

The Persian philosopher, Avicenna, said: 'Anyone who denies the law of non-contradiction should be beaten and burned until he admits that to be beaten is not the same as not to be beaten, and to be burned is not the same as not to be burned.' (Metaphysics, I.8; commenting on Aristotle).

If we define 'man' as a member of the species homo-sapiens, with various physical and mental limitations, then we distinguish 'man' from 'God'. If Yeshua is 'wholly man' then he cannot possibly be wholly not-man ('God') at one and the same time and in the same relationship to what defines a man. If we insist that he is indeed both 'man' and 'God' – and if we preserve the integrity of the definitions of these terms – then we make him a logical contradiction.

The thing about logical contradictions is that they are never true. They are always false, because the real world never satisfies both a statement and its negation at the same time, simply by the meaning of negation.

There are those who argue that 'logic' is entirely man-made; and that the 'laws of logic' do not apply to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla).

I would reply that these laws are necessary truths - that is to say, they are true not only in the world we know, but in every possible world. Indeed, they were true when there were no worlds; when nothing existed at all but Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) Himself.

James N. Anderson and Greg Welty write: 'Just whose thoughts are the laws of logic? There are no more thoughts without minds than there is smoke without fire. Our first inclination might be to say that they must be our thoughts. After all, we’re the ones who think about the laws of logic and apply them to our other thoughts. But the fact that we have thoughts about the laws of logic no more entails that the laws of logic are just our thoughts than the fact that we have thoughts about the Eiffel Tower entails that the Eiffel Tower is merely a product of our minds.

'In any case, the laws of logic couldn’t be our thoughts - or the thoughts of any other contingent being for that matter - for as we’ve seen, the laws of logic exist necessarily if they exist at all.

'If the laws of logic are necessarily existent thoughts, they can only be the thoughts of a necessarily existent mind. It doesn't require much further thought to see whose mind this must be. A necessarily existent mind must be the mind of a necessarily existent person. And this, as Aquinas would say, everyone understands to be God.' ('The Lord of Non-Contradiction: An Argument for God from Logic').

The laws of logic arise from the mind of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla), and are part of His very nature. And just as He cannot violate His own nature, neither can He violate His laws. That is why: 'It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.' (The Problem of Pain).

[Scimitar]

I am truly ignorant of the teachings... etc... of this man. I just did a google search and this is what came up. But his history is confusing... He was a Christian... um... scholar - studying Christianity at the "graduate" level... which caused him to revert to Islam... and then... when having to actually practice Islam.. he can't take the "pain" more or less of having to fast... which causes him to leave Islam... making him an apostate... then... now you are telling me that he has returned to the straight path and all is good.
This raises several questions --- but won't bother asking as you seem to want to move to questioning Christianity without defending Islam (this is the "comparative religions thread? Yes? So what kinda exemption is Islam afforded when comparing? - just asking)...

I've said this before and I'll say it again - if you wanna compare faiths, then be clear about that in the OP and title, you should have more integrity and not pull a bait n switch when your premise is on the back foot, savvy?

[Thekafir]

So do you mean it's ok to be a sinner, since God already paid my sin? what about if by chance I encounter with some schene like a man rape a woman, should I let him doing it, since there's no consequences for the man or for me if we accept the death of Jesus Christ? will God still loving me not helping the woman but enjoying the rape scene?
For me, I can't accept this, especially if the woman is my relative, I wan't the rapper and the one who doing nothing while actually they can to be punished, well of course there's always consequences that I might be the one who in hell, I don't want to be in hell, so that's why I'll try my best to become a best Muslim as I can, and avoid to do a sin.
Since you said that your concept of God is loving us so much, then why you hate and insult (from what I read from your posts) our prophet Muhammad PBUH so much? where's your hatred is come from?

Lets go back to what I write:
1. Christianity is not single sourced.
2. The Quran is a single sourced document.
3. It is historically inaccurate.
4. The Quran is scientifically incorrect.
5. The Quran is internally contradictory.

Now compare that to your reply --- which of those points did you answer?
None...
Why is it that Muslims have such a hard time staying focused on a given topic?
I don't hate Muslims Sir.... I love them enough to engage them enough in spirit and truth even when they try to avoid that glaring reality...


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I've said this before and I'll say it again - if you wanna compare faiths, then be clear about that in the OP and title, you should have more integrity and not pull a bait n switch when your premise is on the back foot, savvy?

So if I start another thread, another OP, you'll engage in an honest discussion --- as long as it in in the appropriate... "OP" or thread?

Why not here --- why not now? Just asking...

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Hello ‘Thekafir’.

Sooooo... I read none of this...

Honestly...

Pick your best whatever this about and ask me to defend it.... I don't have the time you do... :-)

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If God cannot do that, then he is not omnipotent.

If God can not forgive sins with a payment... He is not omnipotent? All powerful???

So if God forgives sins when He feels like it He is therefore omnipotent?

Nope --- fail. He states that there is a penalty for sin.. which is death in hell... to change that is precociousness...

[air]

Lets go back to what I write:
1. Christianity is not single sourced.
2. The Quran is a single sourced document.
3. It is historically inaccurate.
4. The Quran is scientifically incorrect.
5. The Quran is internally contradictory.

Now compare that to your reply --- which of those points did you answer?
None...
Why is it that Muslims have such a hard time staying focused on a given topic?
I don't hate Muslims Sir.... I love them enough to engage them enough in spirit and truth even when they try to avoid that glaring reality...

Why this have something to do with me? isn't this your reply to Futuwwa? if you don't know, there's ---- updated ---- line between your reply to Futuwwa and mine, that mean you reply him and mine in different post, and that's why I assume you ask him not me...

Are you sure I'm not focused? you're not doing falsely aren't you?

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Here look there's an update line above, it mean I post in different time....

[Grandad]

Lets go back to what I write:
1. Christianity is not single sourced.
2. The Quran is a single sourced document.
3. It is historically inaccurate.
4. The Quran is scientifically incorrect.
5. The Quran is internally contradictory.

Now compare that to your reply --- which of those points did you answer?
None...
Why is it that Muslims have such a hard time staying focused on a given topic?
I don't hate Muslims Sir.... I love them enough to engage them enough in spirit and truth even when they try to avoid that glaring reality...


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So if I start another thread, another OP, you'll engage in an honest discussion --- as long as it in in the appropriate... "OP" or thread?

Why not here --- why not now? Just asking...

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Sooooo... I read none of this...

Honestly...

Pick your best whatever this about and ask me to defend it.... I don't have the time you do

It isn't time you lack...it's the ability to refute my statements.

You have found in this Muslim - and in others on this site - one who knows your religion at least as well as you do (and by the quality of your writing, better than you do); and their own religion far better than you do.

You claim to be a teacher. Here is the motto of the Royal Air Force's Education Branch: 'He who would teach, first let him learn.' Come back when your knowledge is greater than it now is....or else have the humility to acknowledge than you are the pupil here.

Have a nice day.

[Futuwwa]

If God can not forgive sins with a payment... He is not omnipotent? All powerful???

So if God forgives sins when He feels like it He is therefore omnipotent?

Nope --- fail. He states that there is a penalty for sin.. which is death in hell... to change that is precociousness...

If God cannot forgive sins without payment, then he is not omnipotent. Correct. Omnipotent means having the power to do anything whatsoever. If there is even one thing God cannot do, then he isn't omnipotent. If he is omnipotent, he is able to send Jesus and Muhammed both to Hell, and admit Satan to Heaven. Should he choose to.

You didn't even try to refute a word of what I said, nor demonstrate any kind of internal philosophical consistency in your position, you just replied with a just-so statement of dogma.

[anatolian]

The second objection of Mine is Paul’s teachings. It seems the first Paul corrupted Christianity or we can say he started Christianity from the teachings of Jesus.

[syphax]

From what i know Christianity is based on the father - son relationship but if I have to put a comparison it's like a "mechanical engineer tray to have a son to the robot he made " it's the kind of scandal you see on the news .the act itself is immortal and do not feet to Allah (aza wa jal) like God had a son what next they go to the beach on vacation (astaghfir Allah) but plot twist Jesus and God the same person wow . breaking news the mechanical engineer had a son with his robot but it's turn out that they are the same person despite his son who is himself is a robot (logic)

Other than that there is the original sin . so to the Christians I am guilty of it , a sin I didn't do even a baby cause a baby don't know Jesus so is guilty as long he don't recognise Jesus as his lord .in the same logic if my grandfather had committed a crime so me and my father also guilty ?

[randomcitizen1]

Thank you all for your meaningful responses. I appreciate you all sharing your knowledge and perspective on the matter.

[Silas]

The trinity and the nature of Jesus are the things that Christians struggle most with (including myself)

There was endless debate and controversy over these matters in the middle-ages, and they continue to this day

My kids have been exposed to both Christianity and Islam, and have friends of both faiths (and Hinduism as well: I live in a very diverse area). The thing I struggle the most with is the idea that I am both qualified to, and expected to, recommend a path for the kids to take. I feel that ultimate truths, and religions, have to be freely chosen (no compulsion in religion).

But I also think that the path to God is a struggle that requires great sacrifice and commitment: it is something that transforms a person. It is not something lightly undertaken, and I think that people should ask difficult questions concerning their faith. Paul Williams embraced Islam for perhaps dubious reasons: maybe he thought it was fashionable, or had some strange sense of pity towards people he thought were victims. Later, when the path became difficult, he abandoned the faith.

[Scimitar]

So if I start another thread, another OP, you'll engage in an honest discussion --- as long as it in in the appropriate... "OP" or thread?

If I have time, yes, why not? But you have to understand, I don't post here on this forum as much as I once used to. Responsibilities and fulfilling my obligations (work, family, worship) as well as Dawah work and filming/editing takes up a lot of time, which is why even this post is made at 11:30pm, before bed. Free time is a luxury I wish I had.

Why not here --- why not now? Just asking...

This thread would become messy, and meander away from the OP and go offtopic, of course... and besides - You - still have to watch the videos I put up and respond to those as well. ;)

Peace

[Thekafir]

It isn't time you lack...it's the ability to refute my statements.

Yeah --- that has to be it... lol...

You have found in this Muslim - and in others on this site - one who knows your religion at least as well as you do (and by the quality of your writing, better than you do); and their own religion far better than you do.

I hear that alot... what you have found here --- in me --- one who knows your religion --- and one who doesn't bother much with the out of context commentary, oft employer obfuscation, and the never ending conflation of mine... as far as my writing goes... lol... I think faster then I write and don't proof read much... you need time to do that --- which goes back to my original point.

You claim to be a teacher. Here is the motto of the Royal Air Force's Education Branch: 'He who would teach, first let him learn.' Come back when your knowledge is greater than it now is....or else have the humility to acknowledge than you are the pupil here.

No --- I don't make that claim... I am... and proud of that fact. I spent a career in the United States Army and now, for the past ten years, have the ability to influence the learning of over 130 students a day for 180 days out of the year... I also have to grade papers - write lessons - develop power points - assignments - et. al.... ergo... T - I -M - E...

Have a nice day.

[Scimitar]

I spent a career in the United States Army and now, for the past ten years, have the ability to influence the learning of over 130 students a day for 180 days out of the year... I also have to grade papers - write lessons - develop power points - assignments - et. al.... ergo... T - I -M - E...

Have a nice day.

The USA's standard of education is pathetically low, compared to even third world nations!

[Thekafir]

If God cannot forgive sins without payment, then he is not omnipotent. Correct.

No --- its a contradiction. You are saying that since God cannot contradict Himself - He is therefore not God. This is a silly argument.. akin to saying God cannot make a square circle...

Omnipotent means having the power to do anything whatsoever.

lol...

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If God cannot forgive sins without payment, then he is not omnipotent. Correct.

No --- its a contradiction. You are saying that since God cannot contradict Himself - He is therefore not God. This is a silly argument.. akin to saying God cannot make a square circle...

Omnipotent means having the power to do anything whatsoever.

lol...

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whatever that last post was --- it was not meant to be two of the same thing --- sorry...

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The USA's standard of education is pathetically low, compared to even third world nations!

Ignorance of where those statistics comes from causes people to make statements like this... How many of the citizens of say --- Saudi Arabia are tested? Afghanistan? Pakistan? Nigeria? Egypt? Even Japan? If you don't know what goes on in the classroom its best not to comment on it... it only makes you look ignorant...

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If I have time, yes, why not? But you have to understand, I don't post here on this forum as much as I once used to. Responsibilities and fulfilling my obligations (work, family, worship) as well as Dawah work and filming/editing takes up a lot of time, which is why even this post is made at 11:30pm, before bed. Free time is a luxury I wish I had.

waaaat? we have something in common? Stop making sense...

This thread would become messy, and meander away from the OP and go offtopic, of course..

.
I am new to this message board and will take you word for it... but have participated on many others and found that responses like this are deflections... sorry for the brutal honesty...

and besides - You - still have to watch the videos I put up and respond to those as well. ;)

Time... and ... you still haven't --- at least from what I have had the time to read --- addressed his re-re-re-version to Islam because of his homosexuality... Romans 1:32 talks about that...

Peace

and blessings unto you...

[Scimitar]

No --- its a contradiction. You are saying that since God cannot contradict Himself - He is therefore not God. This is a silly argument.. akin to saying God cannot make a square circle...

You need to study philosophy, and leave your sophistry at the door, young man!

God made the observable laws of physics in this universe which He doesn't contradict in plain view of His creation. This universe is built with "rules", physical rules/laws, which are barriers to HIM - if you cannot understand this then you need to retake Theology101.

I am starting to suspect you are not a teacher now. You've made school boy errors in assuming nonsense narratives such as square circles and stones which are too heavy to lift et al - that line of enquiry just shows how unprepared you really are to debate theology. But what can I expect from one who believes this meme is the truth:

[Thekafir]

Hello ‘Thekafir’.
Here is my understanding of the Christian doctrine of Redemption:
My understanding of the Trinity:

Pick your best objection on both of these... I don't have the time to address all of them...

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Hello ‘Thekafir’.
Here is my understanding of the Christian doctrine of Redemption:
My understanding of the Trinity:

Pick your best objection on both of these... I don't have the time to address all of them...

[Scimitar]

Pick your best objection on both of these... I don't have the time to address all of them...

Why not be honest and say that you "don't have what it takes to address them all" :D

[Thekafir]

You need to study philosophy, and leave your sophistry at the door, young man!

lol... Okay...

God made the observable laws of physics in this universe which He doesn't contradict in plain view of His creation.

Oh so God can not create ex nihilo? Contradicting the laws of the universe... perhaps you ought to revisit what your Quran has to say about this!!!

his universe is built with "rules", physical rules/laws, which are barriers to HIM - if you cannot understand this then you need to retake Theology101.

How bout basic physics Einstein. Energy is neither created or destroyed... lets go to the 1st Law of Thermodynamics... how did this happen without a contradiction of the physical rules/laws - barriers... lol... or however else you want to describe them...

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You need to study philosophy, and leave your sophistry at the door, young man!

lol... Okay...

God made the observable laws of physics in this universe which He doesn't contradict in plain view of His creation.

Oh so God can not create ex nihilo? Contradicting the laws of the universe... perhaps you ought to revisit what your Quran has to say about this!!!

[quote[]his universe is built with "rules", physical rules/laws, which are barriers to HIM - if you cannot understand this then you need to retake Theology101.[/quote]

How bout basic physics Einstein. Energy is neither created or destroyed... lets go to the 1st Law of Thermodynamics... how did this happen without a contradiction of the physical rules/laws - barriers... lol... or however else you want to describe them...

[Scimitar]

lol... Okay...


Oh so God can not create ex nihilo? Contradicting the laws of the universe... perhaps you ought to revisit what your Quran has to say about this!!!

I didn't imply CANNOT - I implied DOES NOT!!! You really are dense aren't you? I knew it! Sheesh. It's like i'm teaching a child lol. And you claim to be a teacher, lol rich!!! The irony is strong here! You've embarrassed yourself more times than I can count tonight... do you get off on self humiliation?

How bout basic physics Einstein. Energy is neither created or destroyed... lets go to the 1st Law of Thermodynamics... how did this happen without a contradiction of the physical rules/laws - barriers... lol... or however else you want to describe them...

Are you now taking atheist science over the theology which both Judeo-Christianity and Islam share alike? You really are a compromised cupcake aren't ya?

Energy - all energy is created by God. We humans cannot create nor destroy it. We don't even have all the tools required to measure it - so assuming that it cannot be created nor destroyed is not an axiom, but a theoretical play. A scientific fairytale.

Theology101 coming back to bite your backside lol

Really, stop embarrassing yourself!

[Thekafir]

I didn't imply CANNOT - I implied DOES NOT!!!

Thank you for the equivocation... lol...

You really are dense aren't you?

??? Of course I am --- I am a Christian and don't unerstand my faith - don't know what the Bible says - teaches - etc... I am completely dependent upon what Muslims (who follow the teachings of a man who didn't know the name of God) tell me... :facepalm:

Are you now taking atheist science over the theology which both Judeo-Christianity and Islam share alike? You really are a compromised cupcake aren't ya?

No --- cupcake... I teach basic principles of science... You are trying to hide from your comment... lol... please explain how the 1st Law of Thermodynamics is not violated using purley naturalistic processes...

I am stopping right help to demonstrate how foolish of a man you are...

Explain this if you are daring to question my credentials!!!!!

Come on big man --- you got this... even in large letters!!!

[Ümit]

I am afraid you don't exactly understand science here.

definition of science: systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

"knowledge gained through observation and experimentation" means we experimentated observed and concluded that energy cannot be created nor destroyed...however, this does not mean God can not create or destroy energy...the laws of physics applies to us, the created...not to God the creator.

besides, if science is knowledge gained through observation and experimentation, this also means that science is not atheistic. you are observing and documenting only the created...and your conclusion should also be free of what your religion is. facts are just facts...they can not be religious nor atheistic.

[Futuwwa]

No --- its a contradiction. You are saying that since God cannot contradict Himself - He is therefore not God. This is a silly argument.. akin to saying God cannot make a square circle...

Wherein exactly lies the contradiction? It is you who are committing a contradiction by simultaneously asserting that God is omnipotent (has the power to do anything whatsoever) and that he cannot do one particular thing (forgive sins without payment).

Or do you wish to assert that God is not omnipotent in your theology?

What exactly is a "square circle", and what is it supposed to prove?

[Thekafir]

I am afraid you don't exactly understand science here.

lol..

definition of science: systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

I never knew that... thank you for sharing...

"knowledge gained through observation and experimentation" means we experimentated observed and concluded that energy cannot be created nor destroyed...however, this does not mean God can not create or destroy energy...the laws of physics applies to us, the created...not to God the creator.

Perhaps you should let Scimitar know this. He is the one claiming science is atheistic.. not me.

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Wherein exactly lies the contradiction? It is you who are committing a contradiction by simultaneously asserting that God is omnipotent (has the power to do anything whatsoever) and that he cannot do one particular thing (forgive sins without payment).

Here --- your understanding of the word omnipotence is myopic at best.
Omnipotence does not mean the inability to do that which is logically impossible.

Or do you wish to assert that God is not omnipotent in your theology?

Perhaps I should also wish that God could not be God... if He could do that, He would therefore meet your criteria for omnipotence, however, since He wasn't God anymore, He would no longer be omnipotent and again fail to meet your ridiculously myopic view of omnipotence.

What exactly is a "square circle", and what is it supposed to prove?

By definition, using the rules of logic and language it is impossible and something even God cannot do. Squares do not have rounded edges - by definition it is impossible. God cannot violate His perfect sinless character - as if He did - He would no longer be God. Your problem isn't if God is omnipotent He can not forgive sins... God cannot violate His own character by lying and forgive sins without a payment for them.
Hope this helps...

[Futuwwa]

By definition, using the rules of logic and language it is impossible and something even God cannot do. Squares do not have rounded edges - by definition it is impossible. God cannot violate His perfect sinless character - as if He did - He would no longer be God. Your problem isn't if God is omnipotent He can not forgive sins... God cannot violate His own character by lying and forgive sins without a payment for them.

Incorrect. It is incorrect to assert that God cannot draw a square circle. It's a statement that has no truth value because "square circle" isn't a well-defined thing to begin with, thus the statement means nothing. It's word salad. Like asking whether an omniscient being would know the last decimal of pi.

So God is constrained by his own nature, a "perfect sinless character" that he cannot violate. From where does this constraint come? Is it not the will of God that determines what constitutes sin in the first place?

[Thekafir]

Incorrect. It is incorrect to assert that God cannot draw a square circle. It's a statement that has no truth value because "square circle" isn't a well-defined thing to begin with, thus the statement means nothing. It's word salad.

Exactly... just as your insistence that since God cannot violate His own nature He there fore is not omnipotent... is logically salad..

So God is constrained by his own nature, a "perfect sinless character" that he cannot violate. From where does this constraint come?

The Bible tells us He cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18; Titus 1:2). Also, since God is eternal by nature (Psalm 90:2), He cannot stop being God. He cannot deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:13). God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone with evil (James 1:13).
So yes, He is indeed omnipotent...
https://carm.org/questions/about-god...-including-sin

[Scimitar]

lol..

I never knew that... thank you for sharing...

Perhaps you should let Scimitar know this. He is the one claiming science is atheistic.. not me.

Ibn Al Haythm - a Muslim, formulated the scientific method we use today, it is atheists who abuse that method by theorizing their fairy tales to fit their non belief. And you tried to work their mischief to your end as well. I honestly do not believe you are a teacher, you're just too green around the ears to be a teacher.

As for the large font... simmer down homeslice ;) you need to up your polemic! Not your font size.

[Thekafir]

Ibn Al Haythm - a Muslim, formulated the scientific method we use today, it is atheists who abuse that method by theorizing their fairy tales to fit their non belief.

You and I have more in common then you could possibly imagine concerning this topic.

And you tried to work their mischief to your end as well. I honestly do not believe you are a teacher, you're just too green around the ears to be a teacher.

No --- you would actually enjoy my classes... in this part of Kafiristan we are actually allowed to teach differing views concerning origins... both stellar and biological... I let Darwin and his ilk get their butts kicked on a daily basis!

As for the large font... simmer down homeslice ;) you need to up your polemic! Not your font size.

"Homeslice"... I am belly laughing over that one... great point!!! Up the polemic not font... great advice!

[Thekafir]

Ibn Al Haythm - a Muslim, formulated the scientific method we use today

Just going back through your post here.... um... I am calling BS... so go ahead and cite your evidence for this because I have read Aristotle... which predates Muhammad by about 1000 YEARS... and know who Francis Bacon is... lol...

[Futuwwa]

Exactly... just as your insistence that since God cannot violate His own nature He there fore is not omnipotent... is logically salad..

No, it isn't. A "square circle" is a nonsense term that doesn't describe any actual, hypothetical thing. For God to do what you call sinning, however, is a hypothetical occurrence with a real meaning. For instance, if God were to send St Paul to Hell. That's a statement with an actual, well-defined meaning, we both know what it means, regardless if whether that's something that actually could happen. Like a perpetual motion machine. That's a hypothetical thing with an actual well-defined meaning, even if such a thing isn't possible according to current understanding of physics.

So if you can't do something because your own nature constrains you, that isn't non-omnipotence? If so, I'm omnipotent too. I can do everything except that which my nature constrains me from doing. For example, my nature constrains me from shooting laser beams out of my eyes. If that cop-out is valid, then everyone is omnipotent and tautologically so, and the entire concept meaningless.

The Bible tells us He cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18; Titus 1:2). Also, since God is eternal by nature (Psalm 90:2), He cannot stop being God. He cannot deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:13). God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone with evil (James 1:13).
So yes, He is indeed omnipotent...

https://carm.org/questions/about-god...-including-sin

That's just restating the original assertion with Bible citations. That doesn't answer the question, nor resolve any of the apparent contradictions or philosophical problems I pointed out.

I'm not going to read through any links that supposedly answer the question. This isn't a one-way lecture premised on you being right, my disagreement being due to me not getting it, and the purpose being for me to understand how you're right. This is a two-way discussion. You wanted to discuss and debate, we are doing that now. Put up or shut up.

[Thekafir]

I'm not going to read through any links that supposedly answer the question.

I posted a refutation of your ridiculous assertion and backed it up with a citation... if you are not going to engage then... oh wait... you write...

You wanted to discuss and debate, we are doing that now. Put up or shut up.

I did but you won't read... sorry... it must suck to be stuck in the 7th century... let me know when you are ready to come into the 21st...

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Amen --- got a new avatar to finally work here!!! The light shines through the darkness :-)

[MidnightRose]

...The light shines through the darkness :-)

Greetings,

What light would that be?

[Futuwwa]

I posted a refutation of your ridiculous assertion and backed it up with a citation... if you are not going to engage then... oh wait... you write...

I did but you won't read... sorry... it must suck to be stuck in the 7th century... let me know when you are ready to come into the 21st...

Not as much as it must suck to be unable to make an argument of your own and hide behind copypasta. This isn't the world of scientific publication where a citation of a peer-reviewed result is considered evidence. That's just a website with text on it, its existence doesn't prove that any assertion it makes is true. If it makes arguments that are valid, you can make the same arguments yourself.

You refuted nothing, you simply made a bunch of just-so statements of dogma, ignoring every question I asked, as well as my rebuttals.

You're complaining about how you get shown the door on Islamic forums when you try to engage in discussion. I'm offering you exactly that right now. Actual, symmetric, two-way discussion. Not to sit down for a one-way lecture premised on you being right, or being spoon-fed material that's supposed to teach me. If you don't understand the difference, I'm sorry, I don't know how to make it any simpler than that.

[Scimitar]

Just going back through your post here.... um... I am calling BS... so go ahead and cite your evidence for this because I have read Aristotle... which predates Muhammad by about 1000 YEARS... and know who Francis Bacon is... lol...

Lolwut?

You didn't know that Ibn Al Haythm (AlHazen) formulated the modern scientific method? Really??? :D thought you was a teacher... now it's my turn to call BS! You aint a teacher, you're a liar for Christ, is what!

Amazing... guilty fingers should never point. Let this be a lesson for ya.

Francis Bacon was a Freemason who ordered the KJV to be written, that's who he was. The irony is that the KJV is that you didn't know this! Fail for you eh?


Aristotle said "the sign of an intelligent person is one who can entertain an idea without necessarily accepting it." You accepting the bible without knowing its historicity while claiming "francis bacon" is hubris and absolutely discredits you here on this forum, what are you? a Jester? You accepted a well scripted lie, and that is not intelligent... Aristotle must be doing facepalms in his grave lol.

As for Al Haythm and his formulating the modern scientific method, here you go green ears, The origins of the scientific method hearken back to the Islamic World, not the Western one. Around 250 years before Roger Bacon (not Francis Bacon) expounded on the need for experimental confirmation of his findings, an Arab scientist named Ibn al-Haytham was saying the exact same thing. I think you confused Sir Francis Bacon with Roger Bacon - no such thing as accident.

You should learn about Francis Bacon as he absolutely destroyed the Christian creed in Europe with his KJV bible, but Francis Bacon had nothing to do with science lol. As for Aristotle, his method was defunct and the world was using Ptolemy's method for centuries which had elements of superstition attached - non scientific superstition - which Al Haythm removed and replaced with the INDUCTIVE method which is in use today. Ibn Al Haythm is the father of the modern scientific method. Period. And you're not too bright. Evidently ;)

Now, naughty step. You been a silly little penguin, no milk for you! :D

[AabiruSabeel]

Three things are essential for the production of an effect:-


The (Efficient Cause) Maker, such as the potter in the case of the pot.
The Material Cause, such as clay.
The instruments where with to make an object like a pot.

Now just as the potter, clay and the necessary instruments must exist before the pot can be manufactured, likewise, Allah (arabic name for god), and prakrati - (Nature) the material cause of the Universe - with their inherent attributes and characteristics must have existed before this Universe came into being. Hence what the quran says on Creation sounds absurd.

What an absurd example. A pagan who worships man-made idols can never fully understand the attributes and characteristics of God.

Allah :swt: is Al-Mubdi' (The Originator). He is the founder of creation. Not only that, He :swt: is also Al-Badee', Al-Baari, Al-Khaaliq, and Al-Musawwir.

Al-Mubdi' is the One who initiates, starts or begins the production or creation of all things.

Al-Badee' is the One who creates in awesome, wonderful, amazingly original ways that have no precedent whatsoever.

Al-Mu'eed is the One who repeats, restores and revives that which had been previously invented.

Al-Baari' is the way the One works with substances, often creating from existing matter, making and evolving that which is free and clear of imperfections, free and clear of any other thing.

Al-Khāliq is the One who continues to plan, measure out and create and who has the power to change things from one state to another, in and out of existence.

Al-Musawwir is the One who arranges forms and colors, and who is the shaper of beauty.

[Futuwwa]

Awwww, I was hoping for an interesting discussion on the theology of omnipotence and soteriology.

Oh well, at least this thread reminded me of why I quit Christianity in the first place ;D

[fromelsewhere]

Just going back through your post here.... um... I am calling BS... so go ahead and cite your evidence for this because I have read Aristotle... which predates Muhammad by about 1000 YEARS... and know who Francis Bacon is... lol...

I am tired of the arrogance of some people on this forum who always appropriate anything and everything that was ever good as coming from Muslims.

[truthseeker63]

The Greatest Objections to Christianity is the Trinity.

[Futuwwa]

I am tired of the arrogance of some people on this forum who always appropriate anything and everything that was ever good as coming from Muslims.

Perhaps that wouldn't happen if not for the arrogance of certain other people who like to pontificate on the difference between the West and the Islamic world in recent scientific and technological achievement, and use it to draw all kinds of self-serving conclusions about Islam and Muslims.

[fromelsewhere]

Perhaps that wouldn't happen if not for the arrogance of certain other people who like to pontificate on the difference between the West and the Islamic world in recent scientific and technological achievement, and use it to draw all kinds of self-serving conclusions about Islam and Muslims.

Again and again... the blame game. :hiding:

[Futuwwa]

Again and again... the blame game. :hiding:

What blame game would that be? If you are tired of Muslims engaging in such pissing contests but have no issue with others doing it, even to the point of objecting to having it pointed out that others do it too, perhaps it is because you like to do it yourself? Butthurt over getting pissed back at?

[Scimitar]

yeah...... anyway,

In the Left Corner, Paul Williams representing Islam and in the Right Corner, Bob The Builder (Chris) representing Christianity - topic: Crucifiction & Resurrection, FULL LENGTH VIDEO plus FINAL WORD by Paul Williams!



Grab some pop corn,

[HakimPtsid]

There are many things I find disdain in Christianity but I don't find it to be completely as bad as Atheists think it is.

On the bad and less appealing side of Christianity there are many doctrines I don't agree with - like the original sin and demonizing of God-given pleasures, it is also what Nietzsche described as 'slave religion', which is the essence of Mainstream Christian Orthodoxy.
Compared to Islam, the man/God relation is not satisfactory in Christianity.

The scriptures themselves (The Bible) is a more complex issue. I am very fond of Judaism, so I do like the "Tanakh/Torah". When it comes to the "New Testament", it is a different issue for me. I find that through the lens of Judaism, the Gospels, the Acts and the book of Revelation are very interesting things to study - BUT I am thoroughly against the letters of the self-appointed Apostle Paul, I think he is a significant game-changer in the perversion of Allah's original message to the Israelites - even from a Non-Islamic point of view.

I don't agree with the doctrine of 'word made flesh' or "God-incarnate", it has no place in original Jewish teaching and is a complete sham.

I do feel more of a logical explanation in the so-called "Christ-consciousness", which isn't a "new agey" idea - it has roots in the early Gnostic view of Yeshua/Jesus/Isa. The idea that Jesus was spreading ancient mystery school (post-Egyptian) knowledge is a more saner explanation to all of his cryptic sayings (and allusions to the Pineal Gland etc).

But in the context of Islam, yes Jesus was only a prophet of Allah - a special one but by far not one of the most important.

Christianity does have many layers and it's sad that the most spread of them are one of self-suppression.

On the brighter side, I think much good has come out of Christian Esotericism/Occultism but it highlights more than anything else that Christianity is a broken system (compared to Judaism and Islam)

We've all got Esoteric/Mystical schools of thought in our religions but Christianity is the one that has been constantly cutting off it's own hands to spread new non-Biblical doctrines - hence why there are so many denominations.


On the trinity, the idea of a trinity in itself isn't an inherently bad conception of a supreme being or ultimate reality (like Allah) but the issue lies in the person of Jesus himself. The idea of a literal man being a literal part of the absolute God is just absurd. And the Torah verses used to try and legitimize this doctrine is not supported by their original Hebrew texts. It's a complex issue that has been created later on, it was non existent in the original Torah.

[JustTime]

Christianity is the religion of selfishness and is based on self-centered ideals. The difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam teaches us to sacrifice for God while Christianity teaches God sacrifices for humanity on the outside both views have their pros and cons, it's clear this very fundamental and pivotal Christian concept breeds arrogance, selfishness and narcissism.

God doesn't need us and even Christians would acknowledge this, but we need God and this too would be accepted by Christians yet they reject what we the Muslims preach and that is total 100% submission to our creator with no intercession and pure Monotheism and belief in the One God the lord of the worlds, this was indeed the message of Abraham which the Christians claim to follow, as well as the Jews yet the deviate from the monotheism taught by their predecessors the Jews in exchange for the tales and lies of Paul whom even the disciples of Jesus mistrusted yet his extravagant lies and cult built around Jesus are the foundations for modern day Christianity.

This is aside the fact that Christianity was never a unified faith with a central orthodoxy like Islam with the establishment of the Khilafah after the Prophet's lifetime and that lasted generations, as well as our scholars who taught Fiqh and Aqeedah to maintain Islam and purity and Allah has promised to keep Islam pure the Quran of today is the same Quran from the time it was revealed.

Yet the bible is divided into multiple Gospels which have authenticities that are disputed based on what is "cannon" and what isn't with the only ones to verify it various individuals hundreds of years after Jesus's lifetime at councils.

Another flaw in the existence of Christianity and its utter lack of centralization is that even in the earliest days of the religion the teachings of Christianity varied from one teacher to the other because it was a religion forced into the shadows and remained as such for over 300 years meaning that over this coarse of time Christianity had anything but a unified theology that taught pure monotheism and incorporated local teachings and largely becoming syncretic with the paganism of Europe and this legacy continued for almost a thousand years to attract converts from across Europe.

Christianity in short is the most broken and unfulfilling religion on earth.

[azc]

http://www.quranicstudies.com/books/...e-crucifixion/

The Mystery of the Crucifixion | Qur'anic Studies The Attempt to Kill Jesus in the Qur'an, the New Testament, and Historical Sources...

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you JustTime;

Christianity is the religion of selfishness and is based on self-centered ideals.

If Christians truthfully followed the Gospels they should put God first, their neighbour second and their self last. this is the meaning behind the greatest commandments, we can do nothing greater than this. We should love and pray for our enemies too. The fear of God is the start of Wisdom.

Blessings;

Eric

[eesa the kiwi]

What is/are your greatest objection(s) to Christianity and why?

What school or branch of Islam do you consider yourself a part of?

For the first question, relatively detailed responses are preferable to one-sentence replies.

Thank you for your time.

[Ümit]

Greetings and peace be with you JustTime;



If Christians truthfully followed the Gospels they should put God first, their neighbour second and their self last. this is the meaning behind the greatest commandments, we can do nothing greater than this. We should love and pray for our enemies too. The fear of God is the start of Wisdom.

Blessings;

Eric

Love our enemies maybe not...because sometimes they only want to see us getting destroyed...Satan is a clear enemy to us to give you the worst example. we should never love satan.

Be merciful to them is maybe better if they mind their own business and are harmless of course.

[eesa the kiwi]

I think for me one of the biggest turnoffs is the complete disregard of jesus alayhis salams teachings

Even in today's bible which has been distorted and altered by man you can still see the command to follow the law and worship one God alone

Then you have the teachings of Paul which completely oppose what jesus alayhis salam said. Eat pork, dont pray bowing down. The law no longer applies One indivisible God is now taught as three. I would argue Christian's dont follow christianity they follow paulianity

Subhanallah use your intellect. If God sends to you a prophet you don't follow a man who claims he saw a dream then proceeds to change distort and delete the teachings of your prophet so the religion he taught is barely recognizable

[Abrahamic_seek]

I have studied this a lot and the biggest objection according to me is first that God is all powerful so his religion should be mighty and clear. Why then is it that their scriptures are contradictory and anonymous writings that historically are not the acctual sayings of Jesus. Is one supposed to through historical analysis prove that it might be that Jesus recurrection really happened? This is absurd. Historical analysis says that the verses in the Synoptics are completely contradictory to modern christianity, for example the gospels chistology and their view on Jewish law and tradition. They tell us that we shoudl interpret it as the church did. But the church's interpritation is not historical and the only historical church interpritation is the book of Acts. Acts speaks against modern christianity so they claim that we have to interpret this only reliable church interpretation as the church inteprets the intepritation. And Allah knows best.

[anatolian]

Allah can create a rectangular circle by the way. The logical impossibility of it exists in our human minds. The Divine Logic is not something we can comprehend.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

JustTime

Christianity is the religion of selfishness and is based on self-centered ideals.

This is a big generalization. Maybe its my luck but the ones Ive encountered are some of the most civilized people Ive ever met. Have you ever met one?

And judging by the problems we have we should be careful about casting stones.

Just to give an example.

Blurb

Dr Rowan Williams answers questions from the audience in Lincoln Cathedral, following a lecture entitled "Faith, Hope and Charity in Tomorrow's World"

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Ümit;

Love our enemies maybe not...because sometimes they only want to see us getting destroyed.

We call people enemies because they want to harm us in some way, maybe to love and pray for them is a way to win them over. I remember the story of the prophet; pbuh; that when he had his enemy at his mercy, he let him go.

The normal human reaction would be to slay your enemy when you have the chance; but profound and powerful things can happen when you pray for them. I am sure that everything the prophet pbuh; did, that he would have prayed about it first.

As you say, we should not love Satan.

Blessings,

Eric




Greetings and peace be with you Junon;

Salaam

Maybe its my luck but the ones Ive encountered are some of the most civilized people Ive ever met. Have you ever met one?

And judging by the problems we have we should be careful about casting stones.

Thanks for your kind words of encouragement, I feel blessed that I have met some wonderful Muslims too.

Blessings,

Eric

[Olivia1]

What is/are your greatest objection(s) to Christianity and why?

What school or branch of Islam do you consider yourself a part of?

For the first question, relatively detailed responses are preferable to one-sentence replies.

Thank you for your time.

I know this question was written a long time ago, but I thought I could give a different perspective that might be useful to future readers.

There are are so many different versions of Christianity, so it’s difficult to pinpoint a single major objection. I read the Bible cover to cover to see what it had to say, rather than being told what to believe by a pastor or rabbi, and I found much of it to be similar to the Quran. There were some differences, which I attribute to the Bible being changed over time.

If a person was reading the Bible and had never seen the Quran before, it would be easy to believe that it is divine (because some concepts in it really are divine). And anything that is partially from god would be preferable to complete manmade ideas like Hinduism or Atheism. For a person who who grew up in the West, Christianity would be the most obvious way to get close to God.

I do not object to Christianity because of anything inherently wrong with what Jesus had to say, but because I find Islam to be better. Islam has a complete way of life, an unchanged book, laws that are based on logic, and a slew of Hadith that help us to apply our faith into our lives. In other words, Christianity simply isn’t as complete as Islam is.

( any other objections, such as the trinity or the original sin,etc, are dependent on which sect of Christianity you are referring to and therefore won’t apply to all sects).

[CarefulThinker]

I would like to share my views on this having originally coming from a Christian/Catholic background.

Over the years I have found myself withdrawing from a lot of the mainstream Christianity because of attitudes I have seen for myself.

But one of the biggest issues I have concerning Christianity is this concept of "Trinity Worship" because it just does not make any sense. One can clearly see in The Bible there is reference to only ONE Creator. ONE Supreme Being. It clearly shows The Messiah did the will of The Creator, many times.

If anyone knows of the "Shield of the Trinity" (can read up on Wikipedia) it makes no sense.

Another problem I see with Christianity is this "KJV Onlyism" cult. I thought at one time the KJV was the standard to go by, but because I have a desire to learn "truth" my eyes were opened and realized there are issues with the KJV, considering I learnt there is text in the KJV that is not even in the oldest manuscripts to date.

[Silas]

I have similar issues with Christianity, and especially Catholicism.

I was raised Catholic, although my family wasn't particularly observant.

The Trinity never made sense to me, and still doesn't. It was something that was developed and codified long after the crucifixion. Likewise, the idea of Christianity as a universal religion intended for everyone was also a problem, since Jesus makes it pretty clear that he was coming to save the Jews.

But even worse was the Catholic tradition of putting Mary on equal footing with Jesus. One only has to go to a Catholic mass to see how prominent Mary is. It is cult-like.

Islam makes perfect sense to me. Christianity does not.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Silas,

Islam makes perfect sense to me

Religion is about challenging us to do something. In order for Islam to make perfect sense, you would need to embrace it and do something.

Blessings,
Eric

[eesa the kiwi]

I have similar issues with Christianity, and especially Catholicism.

I was raised Catholic, although my family wasn't particularly observant.

The Trinity never made sense to me, and still doesn't. It was something that was developed and codified long after the crucifixion. Likewise, the idea of Christianity as a universal religion intended for everyone was also a problem, since Jesus makes it pretty clear that he was coming to save the Jews.

But even worse was the Catholic tradition of putting Mary on equal footing with Jesus. One only has to go to a Catholic mass to see how prominent Mary is. It is cult-like.

Islam makes perfect sense to me. Christianity does not.

Have considered converting to Islam? Sounds like you have all the ingredients for being a Muslim inshaAllah

[Silas]

Have considered converting to Islam? Sounds like you have all the ingredients for being a Muslim inshaAllah

I am still studying the faith, so perhaps one day inshaAllah :)

My friends already tease me about being a "closet Muslim" lol

[eesa the kiwi]

I am still studying the faith, so perhaps one day inshaAllah :)

My friends already tease me about being a "closet Muslim" lol

May Allah make things easy for you

Have a look at this site www.islamreligion.com they have a bunch of good articles about Islam and a live chat q&a for you to ask questions

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Silas;

I am still studying the faith, so perhaps one day inshaAllah :)

My friends already tease me about being a "closet Muslim" lol

It has been said that inside each and everyone of us is a 'God shaped hole'. You can try filling this hole with all the things of the world like fast cars, houses, holidays, money, lust, power or anything else that might drive your passions. But you are left with the feeling that something is missing, God placed this longing inside all of us, and the God shaped hole can only be filled with the things of God.

You might study all your life and still not have all the answers you need. Faith and trust in God - Allah; is just accepting that you are being called and then you do something to prove to yourself and to Allah that you are striving to submit to his will.

Blessings
Eric

[CarefulThinker]

Thing is when one does research some of the background from Christianity/Roman Catholic beliefs, eventually one will learn and see the parallels with ancient Babylon worship practices and based on the research I have done. Look at the headgear the bishops wear, this "Mitre" as it is called looks like a fish shape.

When one researches about Christmas , one will learn about Saturnalia, they are way too similar, celebrated about the same time of the year. And researching this one will also learn about Sol Invictus ("Unconquered Sun") which when one further researches has a Dec 25 date.

There is just too much evidence that Christianity as it is known today has pagan practices mixed into it. It pains me to say this as having a Christian/Catholic background, but in my opinion, the many Christians who cannot see this is because they rather believe what their priests says rather than do the research themselves.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you CarefulThinker;

There is just too much evidence that Christianity as it is known today has pagan practices mixed into it. It pains me to say this as having a Christian/Catholic background, but in my opinion, the many Christians who cannot see this is because they rather believe what their priests says rather than do the research themselves.

I can do any amount of research; and I will never have absolute proof for the existence of God. Although I am certain that God exists, I have to take this on faith and trust.

If God has the power to create the universe and life, then he has the power to control what goes in the Bible. My faith is not in the anonymous authors of the Bible, and the vagaries of translations; but rather in the power of God. The Bible I read today is the Bible that God intends me to read; it is enough for my salvation.

I have experienced profound moments of peace in times when I should be experiencing fear and worry; this peace is beyond my understanding. I have experienced events that should have ended in death, but life endured by prayer. Again these events test my understanding of coincidences happening when we place our trust in God.

I have also heard similar stories from Muslims on this forum over the years.

In the spirit of searching for God;

Eric

[CarefulThinker]

There is something else worth mentioning, does any one here know of the text corruption of 1 Timothy 3:16? It was discovered in the Greek manuscripts as that is where the tampering was (one can read up on it). It was discovered because where the tampering was, the ink was apparently different. It is a good read if people are not aware of it.

A lot of Catholics/Christians will find it hard to accept reality because they have been taught the "trinity" concept for much of their life.

Now trinity supporters love to use this 1 John 5:7-8 (have a read up on Comma Johanneum ) And through research the older manuscripts have a different reading compared to the likes of the KJV. So if the additional text is not present in the oldest manuscripts to date, then the additional text had to be added in at some time later.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you CarefulThinker;

A lot of Catholics/Christians will find it hard to accept reality because they have been taught the "trinity" concept for much of their life.

Not one person here on earth can say they fully understand 'God'. Who can understand how the universe and life was created? Who really knows how God will judge each and everyone of us?

We trust in God our creator without knowing the full story, we accept that God is beyond our understanding.

Just out of curiosity, you list your religion as other, would you care to say a little more about your beliefs.

Blessings

Eric

[CarefulThinker]

Just out of curiosity, you list your religion as other, would you care to say a little more about your beliefs.

Eric H

As I grew up, I was raised in the Catholic teachings. I think it has been about 4 years now since I have decided to put some serious study, by myself, and as I did my own private study, it was that moment I realize that everything I learned as a Catholic, I had to chuck out.

As I did my own research, it was like a whole new world was opened up to me.

[ardianto]

As I grew up, I was raised in the Catholic teachings. I think it has been about 4 years now since I have decided to put some serious study, by myself, and as I did my own private study, it was that moment I realize that everything I learned as a Catholic, I had to chuck out.

Salaam, CarefulThinker.

I understand if someone make decision to leave his religion and convert into another religion. But what I can't understand is why I often see same behaviour among them. They always criticize the old religion that they have left. I wonder, why don't they just focus to become good believer in their new religion?

:)

[MuhammadHamza1]

My main objection to Christianity is the dishonesty on the part of Gospel writers and Paul himself which is manifested in their corruption of the Tanakh which is more commonly known as the Old Testament.Also I have serious objections regarding the preservation of the Gospels.The main point being that the Gospels we have today are not the ones which were actually written in the first century describing the life of Jesus.Papias refers to Gospels by names,but they are not these ones.
Thirdly,I personally believe that there is a major and stark difference between Christianity and the New Testament.I do not believe that the Christian beliefs of today,especially those of the trinitarians represent the New Testament.So inshort,I have major objections to both the New Testament and Christianity.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you CarefulThinker;

I realize that everything I learned as a Catholic, I had to chuck out.

Thanks for your reply, when you say you are chucking out your Catholic beliefs, do you still have any thoughts on the existence of God? And if so, where is this leading you?

Blessings

Eric

[CarefulThinker]

Greetings and peace be with you CarefulThinker;



Thanks for your reply, when you say you are chucking out your Catholic beliefs, do you still have any thoughts on the existence of God? And if so, where is this leading you?

Blessings

Eric

Eric

This is where I should of explained myself better here, my fault. Everything I had to chuck out I learnt as a Catholic is the "Trinity" worship. It was only when I did my own study this is when I realized what I had learned as a Catholic was wrong in this. The reference in the bible actually makes it clear there is only One Creator. No partners, nothing like that.

Actually learning for myself over the years has led me to do more private studies, especially end times matters, considering the age we live in. And I have learnt quite a lot doing private study.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you CarefulThinker;

I hope your search helps you to be at peace with your creator.

Blessings
Eric

[Predator]

Bible has several contradictions ,any book that claims to be from God must have none according to Quran

[Altaqwa]

Generally, it's Catholics rather than other types of Christians, that I have the biggest objections to. The Vatican itself's initial purpose was to usurp the early Christian church and cloak paganism into the New Testament. The Vatican and Catholic Church, like the Jewish Kabbalists (and Rabbinical Judaism, based around the Talmud) existed for the purpose of providing a vessel for Roman Paganism and the Babylonian Mystery Religion (mother/child deity fertility cults) to thrive under a veil. It later started surfacing into Western Occultism with the Knights Templar, Freemasonry, Rosecrucianism, Theosophy, Thelema, Satanism and the New Age movement. It's very well obscured for the average folk but it's there in plain sight.

The Vatican was the biggest early form of Controlled Opposition against Christianity, yet ironically many think that it represents what the New Testament teaches :facepalm:
You also find the "Eastern Orthodox Church" come into fruition around the same time but having an overall different nature to the Vatican.

They basically gave an excuse for Gnostics (like Sethians, Manichaens etc), Luciferians and Satanists with their inverted form of Christianity - through the Catholic Church's masking of ancient Egyptian, Roman and Babylonian mystery traditions into the Christian mask. It's so absurd when it comes down to it but it fuels that anti-Abrahamic fire that is getting stronger and stronger in the mainstream world every year.
Basically, the Catholic Church exists as a tool to discredit Christianity.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Altaqwa;and welcome to the forum - from a Catholic ;D

Sadly we have many faults as you say!

Blessings

Eric

[Predator]

Greetings and peace be with you Altaqwa;and welcome to the forum - from a Catholic ;D

Sadly we have many faults as you say!

Blessings

Eric

Why then do you continue to believe in a faulty religion ? Wouldn't it make sense to follow flawless and true religion of Islam?

[Ahmed.]

Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) has said,

"By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, any person of this Community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell" (al-Baghawi: Sharh al-sunna 1.104).

This hadith was also reported by Muslim in his Sahih by `Abd al-Razzaq in his Musannaf, and others. It is a rigorously authenticated (sahih) evidence that clarifies the word of Allah in surat Al 'Imran
"Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam will never have it accepted from him, and shall be of those who have truly failed in the next life" (Qur'an 3:85)

[Predator]

Hi Eric H ,if you have found something in Islam which you think is a fault ,please let us know so that we clear the misconception

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Predator;

if you have found something in Islam which you think is a fault ,please let us know so that we clear the misconception.

I believe you have to first be chosen and called by God; I have felt called to Christianity. I don't go looking for faults in other religions; rather I believe in searching for a greater interfaith cooperation, where religions work together for the common good.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'
Eric

[Predator]

We agree that it is required work together for common good.

Regarding greatest meaning of one God ,We believe in oneness and not a trinity


And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs"

4:171


"

[xboxisdead]

Christianity is the religion of selfishness and is based on self-centered ideals. The difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam teaches us to sacrifice for God while Christianity teaches God sacrifices for humanity on the outside both views have their pros and cons, it's clear this very fundamental and pivotal Christian concept breeds arrogance, selfishness and narcissism.

God doesn't need us and even Christians would acknowledge this, but we need God and this too would be accepted by Christians yet they reject what we the Muslims preach and that is total 100% submission to our creator with no intercession and pure Monotheism and belief in the One God the lord of the worlds, this was indeed the message of Abraham which the Christians claim to follow, as well as the Jews yet the deviate from the monotheism taught by their predecessors the Jews in exchange for the tales and lies of Paul whom even the disciples of Jesus mistrusted yet his extravagant lies and cult built around Jesus are the foundations for modern day Christianity.

This is aside the fact that Christianity was never a unified faith with a central orthodoxy like Islam with the establishment of the Khilafah after the Prophet's lifetime and that lasted generations, as well as our scholars who taught Fiqh and Aqeedah to maintain Islam and purity and Allah has promised to keep Islam pure the Quran of today is the same Quran from the time it was revealed.

Yet the bible is divided into multiple Gospels which have authenticities that are disputed based on what is "cannon" and what isn't with the only ones to verify it various individuals hundreds of years after Jesus's lifetime at councils.

Another flaw in the existence of Christianity and its utter lack of centralization is that even in the earliest days of the religion the teachings of Christianity varied from one teacher to the other because it was a religion forced into the shadows and remained as such for over 300 years meaning that over this coarse of time Christianity had anything but a unified theology that taught pure monotheism and incorporated local teachings and largely becoming syncretic with the paganism of Europe and this legacy continued for almost a thousand years to attract converts from across Europe.

Christianity in short is the most broken and unfulfilling religion on earth.

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! Christianity feels forced. Feels mechanical! Feels cliche! Feels distance! Feels a breading ground and foundation of Atheism, Secularism, Feminism, Socialism, and everything ends with ism have been bred from Christianity. When I watch those old Christian cowboy movies or movies where the European (Western) lived in wooden homes in forest and they where uneducated, with no electricity, no technology, no cars, relied on horses (toc, tac, toc, tac) to go from point A to point B and they have to leave their homes to walk long distances in dark/cold to use a toilet that never get cleaned once, to taking showers every once a year and living Christianity world....

It felt like a world of barbaric, backward breeding grown for all the social ilks we see today in modern Western civilization.

LGTP etc are all breeding grounds of what you see now from that era...from the era of Christianity. However, in Islam...in Muslim world...all these social diseases are unavailable. They do not exist. You can't see them. Even men and women are valued and have strict gender roles and Allah WARNED against one group desiring what the other group have.

Christianity is and utter failed religion. In fact...IN ANY OTHER religion that is not ISLAM is a failed and utter religion and should not be followed.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Predator;

We believe in oneness and not a trinity

In Islam it is said; Allah chooses whom he wills; he opens your heart and mind to Islam. I feel I have been called to Christianity; so I should strive to be the best Christian I can be, in the same way you should strive to be the best Muslim you can be.

May Allah bless you and all those you love and care for,

Eric

[Predator]

All of us are Muslims by birth. Historical cases all over the world prove that.

Unless someone comes and tells people what to believe, people believe in Islam though they do not speak Arabic or name their belief “Islam”. They have the same beliefs as Islam, i.e. believe in the same God, Who is One, has no sons and is not subject to aging and so on.

Examples are Kabuku tribe of Papua who never met a civilized man until 1920s and the aborigines of Australia before white men came there.

Qur’anic verses confirm that all children of Adam are Muslims by birth, that is to say believe in Only One God, without a son or an incarnate. In the Qur’an, we read the following verses:

And recall (o Prophet) when your Lord brought forth descendants from the loins of the sons of Adam, and made them witnesses against their own selves, asking them: 'Am I not your Lord?' They said: 'Yes, we do testify.' We did so lest you claim on the Day of Resurrection: 'We were unaware of this.' Or say: 'Our forefathers before us who associated others with Allah in His divinity; we were merely their offspring who followed them. And would You destroy us for that which the unrighteous did?' (Al-A`raf 7:172-173)

['Abdullah]

Peace be on your Brother Eric,

Can I ask you what do you believe in? Do you believe in Trinity? If so then I am really concerned because you are on the wrong path, a path which only leads to destruction.
If you believe in One God with no parteners ( not a one God with three persons) and if you believe in Jesus PBUH as prophet of Allah then you are very close to truth.
But knowing that Muhammad PBUH is the last prophet and rejecting him is rejecting the guidance from Allah. Don't fall into Satan's trap which may tell you that there are many paths to one God, there is only one path to find the pleasure of God and that is through Islam. It is very clearly told in Bible and in Quran.

Can I ask you what keeps you away from accepting Islam?

[Altaqwa]

Just remember that Christianity itself is not the Naṣārā mentioned in the Holy Qur'an. Prophet Jesus and Christianity are two different things. The closest thing to the Chrisitanity that Jesus taught were the 1st century Ebionites/Nazarenes, who were post-Jewish following Jesus as messiah but not as deity. They believed in virgin birth but said nothing about Jesus' "death".

The Bible canon though, is an amalgamation of later sects all competing for the copyright to Jesus. Very little of the New Testament can be taken with anything more than a grain of salt, although many passages in the New Testament attributed to Jesus to confirm he was unflinchingly a Monotheist:

Jesus undeniably confirms the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4, the core Jewish doctrine - which is in continuity with our Shahada) without addition:

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
- Mark 12:28-34

[Silas]

Peace be on your Brother Eric,

Can I ask you what do you believe in? Do you believe in Trinity? If so then I am really concerned because you are on the wrong path, a path which only leads to destruction.
If you believe in One God with no parteners ( not a one God with three persons) and if you believe in Jesus PBUH as prophet of Allah then you are very close to truth.
But knowing that Muhammad PBUH is the last prophet and rejecting him is rejecting the guidance from Allah. Don't fall into Satan's trap which may tell you that there are many paths to one God, there is only one path to find the pleasure of God and that is through Islam. It is very clearly told in Bible and in Quran.

Can I ask you what keeps you away from accepting Islam?

As a person who was raised Catholic, I can attest to the difficulties Christians face when leaving the faith, or attempting to revert to Islam

Our family, friends, and social circle would be shocked if we reverted --it really would be starting a new life (we see what Yusuf Islam went through, for instance). So even if we know Islam is correct in our hearts and minds, making that *public* leap into the faith is difficult. It is easier when you are young, but once you are married, have kids, etc. ...

That's why my friends joke that I am a "closet Muslim" like Sir Richard Francis Burton (who was most certainly a Muslim, but few in the west knew it). I reject the idea of the Trinity and Christ's divinity, but I assert the reality and oneness of Allah. It is, among other things, an intuition of God. But I haven't embraced the lifestyle of a Muslim, and rarely visit the Masjid (even though it is within walking distance of my house). maybe one day ...

Aside from this, there are good things about Christianity that many people have a hard time leaving. There is the fellowship, acts of charity, music (especially the symphonic and choral works), art, etc. But as others here have pointed out, Christianity was also the breeding ground of dangerous sociopolitical ideologies and authoritarian governments. The Bible has been watered down, interpreted incorrectly, and entire portions of the faith have been thrown out, or replaced was scandalous heresies and innovations. The clergy is corrupt.

Less than 50% of people in the United States now consider themselves Christian, and the number is lower in Europe. Islam IS the future--it is the ascendent faith in the west. Some people are scared of this, because they want to keep leading hedonistic, empty lives, and cling to their pet ideologies. Women in the west want to have 20 boyfriends before marriage, and never set foot in a church. They are taught to consider children as a burden, and their husbands as walking bank accounts. And like any religion, Islam has responsibilities and obligations --people in the west fight against that.

['Abdullah]

Quran says:

And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient

[Quran, 2:155]

Allah also says in Quran:

Do the people think that they will be left to say, “We believe” and they will not be tried? – [Quran, 29:2]

Do you think that getting into paradise is that easy? Allah will surely test us all to make sure there is no doubt left who truly believes and who does not. The test gets tougher for those whom Allah selects for higher ranks in paradise, at the same time these tests become easy for the believers because with every test their faith get stronger and they learn how to trust in Allah alone and how to exercise patience.

Many converts ( reverts probably is a better word to use) go through the challenges you mentioned. And I don't want to tell you that your life will become easy after accepting Islam, it will get tougher especially when you are married and have emotional attachments to your wife and kids. It is also possible that your wife and kids will support you if Allah wills and they may also revert to Islam. One thing I know that Allah does not test anyone beyond their capacity, as Quran says:

Allah does not charge a self (anything) except its capacity....[Quran, 2:286]

Allah also says in Quran that with every hardship there is an ease:

Surely there is ease after hardship. Aye, surely there is ease after hardship. [94:6-7]

This remind me of Dr. Lawrence Brown who accepted Islam probably 15-20 years ago. Please watch the video below in which he talks about some of the hardships he faced after becoming a Muslim.

https://youtu.be/LNRQoNRNmG0

Prophet Muhammad PBUH said:

If a person embraces (converts to) Islam sincerely, then Allah shall forgive all his past sins, and after that starts the settlement of accounts: the reward of his good deeds will be ten times to seven hundred times for each good deed, and an evil deed will be recorded as it is unless Allah forgives it. [Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol.1, Hadith No. 40A]

Being a Muslim means sincere faith and actions. One has to do both.
Don't get into the trap that you are not good enough and that you need some time to make sure you can practice Islam.
Don't get into the trap that you need to know everything about Islam before reverting to Islam.
If you are convinced, don't waste a minute in accepting Islam.

One other advice which I will give is that enter into Islam slowly. Take one step at a time. If you can't pray all 5 prayers, starting reading whatever you can. Prayer was not obligatory to Muslims for first 10 years of Islam. Why? Because emphasis was on building faith. Actions shall come from heart and when faith is stronger, actions become very easy. It is like going to gym, you can't start lifting 250 lbs from day one because it will break you and you may end up not going to gym ever again. Slowly build your stamina and a day will come when praying 5 prayers will not be enough for you. You may want to pray other non-obligatory prayers as well.

In Chicago there is huge Muslim community and I am sure you will be welcomed with open arms. You will find many brothers and sisters who will be willing to support you just for the sake of Allah's pleasure.

Please take first step, which is to say the shahada in front to two witnesses. Go to your local mosque and take shahada. Make some Muslim friends and stick to their company for learning more about Islam. Please don't wait any longer as we don't know when our life will end and you definitely don't want to die as a non-Muslim.

I pray to Allah not to test you with anything which is beyond your capacity. I ask Allah to make you a source for bringing Islam into your family. Ameen!

If you need any help please don't hesitate. I am from USA as well, live in Sacramento and will be willing to fly to Chicago and meet you if you need any help. Can't wait to hear the good news that you took your Shahada, I can already imagine hugging you with tears rolling down my cheeks. Feel free to message me privately if you think that's a better way to discuss.

[Silas]

thank you for the excellent response --I will watch the videos and look at the passages from the Quran for sure

I will keep you updated ;)

['Abdullah]

I came in this world empty handed, my parents worked hard to raise me. I could not imagine that I would ever live without my parents when I was a kid, but today I live thousands of miles away from my parents. I went to school and made many friends, life without my friends would mean nothing to me. Today I am thousands of miles away from my school and college friends, there are many with whom I have not even talked since I left college. Today I live with my wife and two kids and they are my little world and everything to me.

When I will be old, my kids will also leave me. When I will die, I will leave the world empty handed just like I came to this world. I will be put in grave, my Hereafter will start right after my death and there will be none there to help me except ALLAH who has been with me through out my journey in this life but I did not realize it. That's the reality of every one of us and that's why nothing should live in our hearts except Allah (SWT). If I love and respect my parents, my wife, my kids, my friends, my neighbors, my co-workers etc. it is all to please Allah (SWT).

Quran say:

Know that the life of this world is but amusement and diversion and adornment and boasting to one another and competition in increase of wealth and children - like the example of a rain whose [resulting] plant growth pleases the tillers; then it dries and you see it turned yellow; then it becomes [scattered] debris. And in the Hereafter is severe punishment and forgiveness from Allah and approval. And what is the worldly life except the enjoyment of delusion.

Race toward forgiveness from your Lord and a Garden whose width is like the width of the heavens and earth, prepared for those who believed in Allah and His messengers. That is the bounty of Allah which He gives to whom He wills, and Allah is the possessor of great bounty.[Quran 57:20-21]

It is time for action my brother. It is time to race towards Allah's forgiveness and mercy. May Allah shower His blessings on you and your family and make it easy for you to make the right decision. Ameen!

[xboxisdead]

I came in this world empty handed, my parents worked hard to raise me. I could not imagine that I would ever live without my parents when I was a kid, but today I live thousands of miles away from my parents. I went to school and made many friends, life without my friends would mean nothing to me. Today I am thousands of miles away from my school and college friends, there are many with whom I have not even talked since I left college. Today I live with my wife and two kids and they are my little world and everything to me.

When I will be old, my kids will also leave me. When I will die, I will leave the world empty handed just like I came to this world. I will be put in grave, my Hereafter will start right after my death and there will be none there to help me except ALLAH who has been with me through out my journey in this life but I did not realize it. That's the reality of every one of us and that's why nothing should live in our hearts except Allah (SWT). If I love and respect my parents, my wife, my kids, my friends, my neighbors, my co-workers etc. it is all to please Allah (SWT).

Quran say:

It is time for action my brother. It is time to race towards Allah's forgiveness and mercy. May Allah shower His blessings on you and your family and make it easy for you to make the right decision. Ameen!

I would have not said it any better than this!!!!

[Ahmed.]

OK, here goes to OP's questions:

1. The number 1 objection to Christianity is, it is no longer valid since its been invalidated by Allah with the advent of the last Messenger Muhammad (saw) who has been sent with new revelation for All of mankind.

2. Its no longer the original religion that was revealed to Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and Its full of idolatry and polytheism such as belief in a triune god and deification of the Prophet Jesus

3. Its full of blasphemy too such as attributing heinous sins on Prophets of God

And the list goes on and on... :Emoji29:

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

I think I need to take a break for a while.

May Allah bless you all,
Eric

[Studentofdeed]

Look we believe in Islam but islam also says we should not mock other religions. Even if they do something that is wrong or you disagree with, we should preach with love and understanding. Christianity and Judaism are religious of Allah too. They were all from Allah. So we should not mock them or condemn them because at the end, Allah knows our fates not us. We will only push people away from the message of islam.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Studentofdeed;

Look we believe in Islam but islam also says we should not mock other religions. Even if they do something that is wrong or you disagree with, we should preach with love and understanding. Christianity and Judaism are religious of Allah too. They were all from Allah. So we should not mock them or condemn them because at the end, Allah knows our fates not us. We will only push people away from the message of islam.

Thanks for your kind words,

May Allah bless you though all your struggles;
Eric

[Predator]

The only religion created by Allah is Islam and that was the religion taught by Moses Pbuh and Jesus pbuh.
Christianity is a man made religion which preaches about triune God and belief in Crucifixion for salvation.
It may seem that Islam is Judaism made universal but
Judaism has been corrupted and had become a racial religion. Jews rejected Jesus (PBUH) and dont follow the Quran.

[Ahmed.]

Look we believe in Islam but islam also says we should not mock other religions. Even if they do something that is wrong or you disagree with, we should preach with love and understanding. Christianity and Judaism are religious of Allah too. They were all from Allah. So we should not mock them or condemn them because at the end, Allah knows our fates not us. We will only push people away from the message of islam.

Thankyou

My post edited accordingly :)

[Predator]

Look we believe in Islam but islam also says we should not mock other religions. Even if they do something that is wrong or you disagree with, we should preach with love and understanding. Christianity and Judaism are religious of Allah too. They were all from Allah. So we should not mock them or condemn them because at the end, Allah knows our fates not us. We will only push people away from the message of islam.

The present day Judaism and Christianity are man made and not from Allah

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

I believe truth is best served when we use it to change ourselves, rather than use it as a tool to try and change others. How can we use truth to work together for the common good and bring glory to God?

I have always felt greatly encouraged when people from diverse groups; work together to make communities a better place to live. In our town, Christians have worked together to open up four houses for homeless people, a food bank, helping people in debt, journeying with people suffering from addictions, good neighbours groups and much more. These projects are too big for any one church group to do effectively on their own. We recognise the growing need in our town for kindness and care, we pray for each other, we pray for the needs in our community, and we ask God to guide us to do his will. We can do so much more when we pray and work together.

I would like to see a greater interfaith cooperation in our communities, when we can all work together, and support those who are in most need of help. I want my children and grandchildren to grow up in a kinder and more caring town, I strive to be the change I want to see.

We are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers despite our differences. God cares for all of his creation, and I truthfully believe that you will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

[Predator]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

I believe truth is best served when we use it to change ourselves, rather than use it as a tool to try and change others. How can we use truth to work together for the common good and bring glory to God?

I have always felt greatly encouraged when people from diverse groups; work together to make communities a better place to live. In our town, Christians have worked together to open up four houses for homeless people, a food bank, helping people in debt, journeying with people suffering from addictions, good neighbours groups and much more. These projects are too big for any one church group to do effectively on their own. We recognise the growing need in our town for kindness and care, we pray for each other, we pray for the needs in our community, and we ask God to guide us to do his will. We can do so much more when we pray and work together.

I would like to see a greater interfaith cooperation in our communities, when we can all work together, and support those who are in most need of help. I want my children and grandchildren to grow up in a kinder and more caring town, I strive to be the change I want to see.

We are all created by the same God, and the same God hears all our prayers despite our differences. God cares for all of his creation, and I truthfully believe that you will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

Interfaith cooperation alone is not enough for the Afterlife.If you have the wrong concept of God then you will be amongst the losers in the hereafter,don't you understand ?
The first thing that you will be brought to account on the Day of Resurrection will be your faith and prayer. If it is sound, then you will be successful, and if it is lacking in any way, you will be doomed.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Predator;

Interfaith cooperation alone is not enough for the Afterlife.If you have the wrong concept of God then you will be amongst the losers in the hereafter,don't you understand ?
The first thing that you will be brought to account on the Day of Resurrection will be your faith and prayer. If it is sound, then you will be successful, and if it is lacking in any way, you will be doomed.

Suppose you have a Muslim surgeon; a Christian surgeon and a Hindu anaesthetist working together to save the life of an atheist patient; they will have to put all their differences aside to save the patient's life. You cant have them arguing about each of their individual truths, whilst they have blades in their hands and trying to save a life.

Millions of people have lived and died as Muslims, Christians, Hindus, we are not going to change that. I think there are times when we search for a deeper meaning of how we strive to live in peace with our 'Truth'.

Blessings,
Eric

[Ümit]

Greetings and peace be with you Predator;



Suppose you have a Muslim surgeon; a Christian surgeon and a Hindu anaesthetist working together to save the life of an atheist patient; they will have to put all their differences aside to save the patient's life. You cant have them arguing about each of their individual truths, whilst they have blades in their hands and trying to save a life.

Millions of people have lived and died as Muslims, Christians, Hindus, we are not going to change that. I think there are times when we search for a deeper meaning of how we strive to live in peace with our 'Truth'.

Blessings,
Eric

You are absolutely right. You cant have them arguing when there are lives dependent on them. I totally agree with you on that.
However that is not what our brothers are trying to tell you in this thread.
What they mean is that your own afterlife is in great danger right now. and you will not save that with inter religious cooperation...neither with saving lives...not as long as you reject Islaam.

Most people are misinformed about Islaam. So, when they reject Islaam, at least they may have some excuse because they just didn't knew any better.
You however, know a lot about Islaam...you are very well informed and you posess a lot of knowledge...so for you it is extra dangerous.
your brothers here are just concerned about you.

@ others on this thread:
Eric is a wise man. He himself already said that Allah just did not decided yet to enlighten him with Islaam. Lets just make dua for him that one day he will be among the enlightend ones...
trying to convince him to convert has no use. He probably has his reasons for it...of course it is not that easy...but lets just not keep going about it.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Umit my friend;

I was just about to edit my last post, but you beat me to it, I wanted to add -

Millions of people have lived and died as Muslims, Christians, Hindus, we are not going to change that. I think there are times when we search for a deeper meaning of how we strive to live in peace with our 'Truth'. Eternal salvation is at the heart of what we are all striving for.

trying to convince him to convert has no use

I could try very hard to convert you to Christianity, and ten years later I will be forced to say, it is no use trying to convert you; but I still value your friendship.

Allah cares for all his creation, he is just, compassionate, merciful and forgiving. He knows what he has placed in your heart and mine. If either of us have salvation, it will not be because we deserve it or we have earned it, rather it will be because of the mercy, compassion and forgiveness of Allah. My prayers are for salvation for all people.

May Allah bless you and all those you love and care for,

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all;

Suppose you have a Muslim surgeon; a Christian surgeon and a Hindu anaesthetist working together to save the life of an atheist patient; they will have to put all their differences aside to save the patient's life. You cant have them arguing about each of their individual truths, whilst they have blades in their hands and trying to save a life.

I think this fictional story brings up some challenging questions about truth. Should the Christian and Muslim surgeons let the atheist patient die, after all he is probably going to hell.

Or would the Christian think, if I save his life, he will be grateful and turn to Christianity, would the Muslim surgeon think he could convert the patient to Islam for the same reasons.

And after the atheist's life has been saved would he say, thanks guys, isn't science and medicine wonderful.

How would you define the priorities of life, death, truth and justice in this story? Is there any benefit in working together to try and make this world a better place for everyone?

In the spirit of searching for justice and peace for all people,

Eric

[Ümit]

Greetings and peace be with you all;



I think this fictional story brings up some challenging questions about truth. Should the Christian and Muslim surgeons let the atheist patient die, after all he is probably going to hell.

Or would the Christian think, if I save his life, he will be grateful and turn to Christianity, would the Muslim surgeon think he could convert the patient to Islam for the same reasons.

And after the atheist's life has been saved would he say, thanks guys, isn't science and medicine wonderful.

How would you define the priorities of life, death, truth and justice in this story? Is there any benefit in working together to try and make this world a better place for everyone?

In the spirit of searching for justice and peace for all people,

Eric

No, letting someone die when you have the power to save him is wrong...even if you know this person is an atheist and he wont convert. you are not the judge of this person. Only Allah can decide who dies wenn and how. So in this case the muslim and christian surgeons must work together to save the atheists life.

Please elaborate what you mean with the second half of your post:
"How would you define the priorities of life, death, truth and justice in this story? Is there any benefit in working together to try and make this world a better place for everyone?"

What exactly are you asking here?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Umit;

Only Allah can decide who dies wenn and how. So in this case the muslim and christian surgeons must work together to save the atheists life.

Thanks for your reply, and you have answered in the same way I would answer.

Please elaborate what you mean with the second half of your post:
"How would you define the priorities of life, death, truth and justice in this story? Is there any benefit in working together to try and make this world a better place for everyone?"

What exactly are you asking here?

I think you have answered that yourself already. You said it is better to put your differences aside to help save lives. The two surgeons are in their job because they want to save lives and also because the hospital is paying them to do the job.

Supposing these same Muslim and Christian surgeons, did voluntary work together in a homeless shelter. They are not saving lives, they are not paid to do it, but hopefully they are helping make vulnerable people's lives better. Can it be possible to put our differences aside to make our community a kinder and more caring place to live in? Or would it be better that the Christian worked in a Christian shelter and the Muslim worked in a Muslim shelter?

This is how I come to believe in interfaith cooperation, there are many projects in our towns that are too big for any single group to do, sometimes they can work far better when we cooperate with others to make for a kinder and more caring society.

Blessings
Eric

['Abdullah]

Greetings and peace be with you Umit;

Thanks for your reply, and you have answered in the same way I would answer.

I think you have answered that yourself already. You said it is better to put your differences aside to help save lives. The two surgeons are in their job because they want to save lives and also because the hospital is paying them to do the job.

Supposing these same Muslim and Christian surgeons, did voluntary work together in a homeless shelter. They are not saving lives, they are not paid to do it, but hopefully they are helping make vulnerable people's lives better. Can it be possible to put our differences aside to make our community a kinder and more caring place to live in? Or would it be better that the Christian worked in a Christian shelter and the Muslim worked in a Muslim shelter?

This is how I come to believe in interfaith cooperation, there are many projects in our towns that are too big for any single group to do, sometimes they can work far better when we cooperate with others to make for a kinder and more caring society.

Blessings
Eric

From Islamic point of view, good deeds are only good with correct intentions.

What is the intention of every disbeliever when they do "supposed" good deeds? Is it to please the true creator who is absolute one and have no partners? If it is to please anyone else like Jesus PBUH then on the day of Judgement these good deeds will carry no weight.

There are several verses in Quran on this topic, for example:

Say, [O Muhammad], “Shall we [believers] inform you of the greatest losers as to [their] deeds? [They are] those whose effort is lost in worldly life, while they think that they are doing well in work.” Those are the ones who disbelieve in the verses of their Lord and in [their] meeting Him, so their deeds have become worthless; and We will not assign to them on the Day of Resurrection any importance. [Quran 18:103-105]

These verses are very clear in explaining the fate of those who used to think in the life of this world that they are doing very well. They are very hard workers, as far as worship; going to the places of worship on a regular basis. But, they are worshipping other than Allah. Either they are worshipping human beings, animals, idols, pictures or images. It does not matter. As long as they do not worship Allah (Glory be to Him) alone, Allah, the Almighty says:

I am so self-sufficient that I am in no need of having an associate. Thus he who does an action for someone else’s sake as well as Mine will have that action renounced by Me to him whom he associated with Me.[Sahih Muslim]

So, setting partners to Allah in worship will make the person not eligible for Allah’s Mercy whatsoever.

In Surah Al-Nisa’, Allah (Glory be to Him) repeated this twice in two different verses, in verse number 48 and another verse afterward, it says:

Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. [Quran 4:48]

Prophet Muhammad PBUH has further clarified this in a famous hadith quoted below:

Anas ibn Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that the Prophet (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) said:

When a disbeliever does a good deed, he is rewarded for it in this world. As to the believer, Allah, the Almighty, saves his good deeds to reward him in the Hereafter and provides him with sustenance in this life as a reward for his obedience." Another narration reads: "Allah does not deal unjustly with a believer regarding a single good deed. He is given blessings for it in this world and will be rewarded for it in the Hereafter. As to the disbeliever, he is given sustenance as a reward for his good deeds in this world, so when he comes to the Hereafter, there are no more good deeds for him for which he can be rewarded. [Sahih Muslim]

[Ümit]

Supposing these same Muslim and Christian surgeons, did voluntary work together in a homeless shelter. They are not saving lives, they are not paid to do it, but hopefully they are helping make vulnerable people's lives better. Can it be possible to put our differences aside to make our community a kinder and more caring place to live in? Or would it be better that the Christian worked in a Christian shelter and the Muslim worked in a Muslim shelter?

This is how I come to believe in interfaith cooperation, there are many projects in our towns that are too big for any single group to do, sometimes they can work far better when we cooperate with others to make for a kinder and more caring society.

Blessings
Eric

Dear Eric, I do not know why you are asking this. I am starting to think that you think we muslims are some kind of barbarians or something...that we have a totally different set of morals and values....we don't...
We also love humanitarian work, give to charity, reach out to the ones in need etc...regardless muslim or non-muslim.

I also said in my latest post that we are not the judges of anyone...so it is not to us to decide who is a muslim and deserves our help and who not. We do not know what plans Allah has for these people...the people you look down on today as a helpless non muslim...can reach out his helping hand to you tomorrow...you never know.

A man goes to a doctor: doctor, "I am in such pain...". First thing the doctor asks: " you a muslim right?"
Would be a really awkward situation right? The patients religion is none of his business.

But again...you seem to mix stuff up...interreligional cooperation and saving your own soul in the afterlife are two different subjects. Interreligional cooperation focusses on this world. to make this world a better place....saving your soul focusses on the afterlife which is permanent and not temporarily like this world...so you should not underestimate that.

Islaam does not prohibit interreligional cooperation.

[Predator]

Dear Eric, I do not know why you are asking this. I am starting to think that you think we muslims are some kind of barbarians or something...that we have a totally different set of morals and values....we don't...
We also love humanitarian work, give to charity, reach out to the ones in need etc...regardless muslim or non-muslim.

I also said in my latest post that we are not the judges of anyone...so it is not to us to decide who is a muslim and deserves our help and who not. We do not know what plans Allah has for these people...the people you look down on today as a helpless non muslim...can reach out his helping hand to you tomorrow...you never know.

A man goes to a doctor: doctor, "I am in such pain...". First thing the doctor asks: " you a muslim right?"
Would be a really awkward situation right? The patients religion is none of his business.

But again...you seem to mix stuff up...interreligional cooperation and saving your own soul in the afterlife are two different subjects. Interreligional cooperation focusses on this world. to make this world a better place....saving your soul focusses on the afterlife which is permanent and not temporarily like this world...so you should not underestimate that.

Islaam does not prohibit interreligional cooperation.

Agree,the way eric always deviates the topic to interfaith cooperation reminds us of the behavior of the proverbial ostrich and continued ignorance to warning about the hereafter doesn't look good at all

[taha_]

Agree,the way eric always deviates the topic to interfaith cooperation reminds us of the behavior of the proverbial ostrich and continued ignorance to warning about the hereafter doesn't look good at all

Assalam o alaikum rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

Allah says in Surah E Baqarah

( 256 ) There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.


We cant force anyone to accept islam. Let Allah guide whoever He wills. The only way is ask Allah to guide Eric to Islam. So let us make duas and ask Allah

JazakAllah khair

[Predator]

Yes,we can't force anyone to accept Islam ,but we have a duty to convey the message and correct misconception.In this case,Eric seems to have a wrong impression that Islam and Muslim don't support humanitarian work ,charity or interreligious cooperation which isn't true

['Abdullah]

Yes,we can't force anyone to accept Islam ,but we have a duty to convey the message and correct misconception.In this case,Eric seems to have a wrong impression that Islam and Muslim don't support humanitarian work ,charity or interreligious cooperation which isn't true

I posted a new thread on interest based economic system and its curse on humanity. To me the best humanitarian thing we can do is not to support the interest based system and follow the Divine law. If someone is part of such a system then they are partly responsible for death of millions of children in poor countries every year, they are also partly responsible for poor and homeless people within Western countries. We can't solve our social issues unless we treat the root cause and that is not to follow the "Divine Laws." No matter what we do at the name of humanitarian cause, if we don't follow the Divine Laws, our actions will mean nothing and will have no benefit in this life or hereafter.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Predator;

Agree,the way eric always deviates the topic to interfaith cooperation reminds us of the behavior of the proverbial ostrich and continued ignorance to warning about the hereafter doesn't look good at all

You must understand I am a Christian, and I have my own Christian hopes for salvation. I am a guest on your forum; and as such should be careful not to promote Christianity here. I respect your faith, I know Muslims do a lot of good charitable work, you have good morals, you fast and pray.

If I have caused offence to anyone, then I humbly ask your forgiveness, it has never been my intention to offend.

Blessings

Eric