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MuhammadHamza1
01-22-2018, 02:28 PM
Assalamu Alaikum.
Please note.
1)-That the Earth has to be billions of years old for the theory of evolution to be true.Evolution is a slow process that requires billions of years.Hence,if the Earth is let us say,only a few thousands or even some hundred of thousand years old,Evolution cannot occur and this theory is false.
2)-The Presenter is a Christian.The Quran has ordered us Muslims to judge previous scriptures by using the Quran as criterian,i.e,that which agrees with the Quran,Muslims agree that it is the truth.And that part of the scriptures,which disagree with the Quran,we disregard them.The Presenter presents Bible verses throughout his presentation.And they are in agreement with the Islamic view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_OlX7M5MLA

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Moreover,this person is also a Zionist.I recommend you not to listen to his videos other than Evolution and his debates with Evolutionists.
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Good brother
01-22-2018, 04:24 PM
Wa alaikum assalam
Another scientist on the same topic
https://www.trueorigin.org/biologymyth.php
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Peacefully
01-22-2018, 05:22 PM
quran supports evolution
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Ümit
01-23-2018, 08:34 AM
I do not know if evolution is a fantasy or not. what I do know it does not have to contradict Islam.
Allah may have used evolution as a tool to create life on Earth.
think about it...Adam as was made of clay and dirt from Earth. if we die, our bodies will decompose and go back to its original state which is clay and dirt.
but so are animals...so is this not a sign that our origin may be the same?
our days weeks and months are specified for a life on Earth...beyond our Earth a day or a week or one year has no meaning.
when Quran speaks about time, it does not have to mean time defined by humans. we nevr know.
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Ishaaq
01-23-2018, 08:47 AM
Be careful about equating Islamic/Quranic terms with scientific/biological ones. In Islam there is the term "Insan" and "Bani Adam" and "Adami", and in science there is the technical term "Homo Sapien" and "anatomically modern human". It is not necessary that these are all equivalent terms. In my view, the Islamic term Bani Adam is not necessarily equivalent to Homo Sapien. What may be considered "Homo Sapien" or even "Human" from a scientific/biological perspective may not be considered Insan or Adami possessing Ruh in the Islamic view, but instead belonging to the classification of "Haywan".
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sister herb
01-23-2018, 09:11 AM
I don´t see that evolution and Islam would to be opposite. The science is just only human´s way to understand those technics how Allah has created the life itself.

When we become ill and antibiotics doesn´t work well against bacteria we ask why. If a doctor or scientist explain it´s because that bacteria has changed it´s DNA and became resistant to the medicine, that´s part of the story of the evolution. No need to believe the doc but just hope someone can now create new and better med what works. Well, then this someone else has studied and understood how bacterias create new variations. It means, they have studied how evolution process works.
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Ümit
01-23-2018, 09:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
I don´t see that evolution and Islam would to be opposite. The science is just only human´s way to understand those technics how Allah has created the life itself.

When we become ill and antibiotics doesn´t work well against bacteria we ask why. If a doctor or scientist explain it´s because that bacteria has changed it´s DNA and became resistant to the medicine, that´s part of the story of the evolution. No need to believe the doc but just hope someone can now create new and better med what works. Well, then this someone else has studied and understood how bacterias create new variations. It means, they have studied how evolution process works.
I totally agree...science is human way to understand nature and its laws. of course we cannot understand everything. but using science and research we understand it bit by bit. right now we use evolution to explain how Allah created life on Earth. Over 100 years this might be much more detailed how evolution functions...or it might be just silly and we developed a much better but totally different theory. who knows.
but again, it does not have to contradict Islam.
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Good brother
01-23-2018, 03:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb

When we become ill and antibiotics doesn´t work well against bacteria we ask why. If a doctor or scientist explain it´s because that bacteria has changed it´s DNA and became resistant to the medicine, that´s part of the story of the evolution.
Assalam alaikum

Darwinists use undeniable examples of 'change over time' (variation) to prove 'the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information' (microbe-like-to-man evolution).

This inexcusable logic is called equivocation or the bait-and-switch fallacy, and occurs when someone changes the definition of a word halfway through an argument.
The supposed Evidence for Evolution is full of examples of 'change over time' as evidence for microbes-to-man evolution.

http://quranscientificerror.blogspot...evolution.html
https://www.gawaher.com/topic/740302...-of-evolution/
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Ishaaq
01-23-2018, 03:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Good brother
Assalam alaikum

Darwinists use undeniable examples of 'change over time' (variation) to prove 'the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information' (microbe-like-to-man evolution).

This inexcusable logic is called equivocation or the bait-and-switch fallacy, and occurs when someone changes the definition of a word halfway through an argument.
The supposed Evidence for Evolution is full of examples of 'change over time' as evidence for microbes-to-man evolution.

http://quranscientificerror.blogspot...evolution.html
https://www.gawaher.com/topic/740302...-of-evolution/
It does seem incredible to me that all organic life on Earth has a shared ancestry. It's almost a metaphysical claim...a bit like how Christians say the bread literally turns into Jesus's flesh, and the wine into his blood
Me and the apple I ate for breakfast literally have the same ancestor
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usernameistoolo
01-23-2018, 05:09 PM
So evolution is true? When Allah fashioned Adam AS didn’t he look human? Shaitan was scared of him?? Idk
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Peacefully
01-23-2018, 05:29 PM
just look at dogs to wolves
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Good brother
01-23-2018, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Peacefully
just look at dogs to wolves
Grey wolf & placental canids Vs Tasmanian wolf/thylacine:


Thylacinus cynocephalus, Greek for "dog-headed pouched one") was the largest known carnivorous marsupial of modern times. It is commonly known as the Tasmanian tiger (because of its striped back) or the Tasmanian wolf. Native to continental Australia, Tasmania and New Guinea, it is thought to have become extinct in the 20th century. It was the last extant member of its family, Thylacinidae; specimens of other members of the family have been found in the fossil record dating back to the early Miocene.

The gray wolf or grey wolf (Canis lupus) is a species of canid native to the wilderness and remote areas of North America, Eurasia, and North Africa.

Evolutionary biologists believe that these two different species have completely separate evolutionary histories. (Since the continent of Australia and the islands around it split off from Gondwanaland (the supercontinent that is supposed to be the originator of Africa, Antarctica, Australia, and South America) the link between placental and marsupial mammals is considered to have been broken, and at that time there were no wolves).

But the interesting thing is that the skeletal structure of the Tasmanian wolf is nearly identical to that of the North American wolf. Their skulls bear an extraordinary degree of resemblance to each other.


The skulls of the Thylacine (left) and the Grey Wolf, Canis lupus, are similar, although the species are only very distantly related according to neo-darwinism. Caninae that led to present-day canids (wolves, foxes, coyotes, jackals, and domestic dogs)appeared only (about 10-0 Mya) while the last imaginary common ancestor was about 160 Mya !!!

The obstacle:

A most striking factor for consideration is the existence of numerous marsupial and placental mammals that are virtually identical to one another with the exception of the distinctions in their reproductive systems.
One of the most concrete examples of such an obstacle in the path of Neo-darwinian theory is that there are "pairs" in placentals and marsupials which are nearly the same.

In other words, according to the theory of evolution, mutations completely independent of each other must have produced these creatures "by chance" twice! This reality is a question that will give Darwinists problems even worse than dizzy spells.

Extraordinary resemblances and similar organs like these, which evolutionary biologists cannot accept as examples of "homology," show that homology does not constitute any evidence for the thesis of evolution from a common ancestor.

Ad hoc:

An ad hoc explanation is an unfalsifiable explanation provided in an effort to account for an inconsistency in a theory.

For example:
A child says that he turned his homework in to the teacher. The teacher then confronts him with the fact that the homework is not in the box. The child responds, "Somebody must have stolen it!" The child has no evidence to support the allegation that someone stole the homework -- he has simply manufactured an unfalsifiable explanation to deal with a difficulty in his story.
Ad hock

In response, evolutionists say that these organs are not "homologous" (in other words, from a common ancestor), but that they are "analogous" (very similar to each other, although there is no evolutionary connection between them). However, the question of which category they will put an organ into, homologous or analogous, is answered totally in line with the theory of evolution's preconceptions.

The explanation is ad hoc in the sense that it was invented in order to explain away a difficulty in a theory, and is not itself supported by experimental evidence.

And this shows that the Darwinist claim based on resemblances is completely unscientific. The only thing Darwinists do is to try to interpret new discoveries in accordance with a dogmatic evolutionary preconception.

http://evolutionfactormyth.blogspot....-homology.html
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Peacefully
01-23-2018, 06:28 PM
i dont get into all the lableing and the creating of an "us vs them" dialog. quran supports evolution, evolution has some science to back it... would make no sense to dismiss it. nothing unislamic about it according to allah (quran).
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Kashif Amin
01-23-2018, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Peacefully
quran supports evolution
Science is man made. It is a tiny knowledge given to man by God. Concept of evolution has inherent flaws. If Darwin’s theory is correct, then why we still have monkey’s. They all should have transformed into humans.
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Kashif Amin
01-23-2018, 06:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kashif Amin
Science is man made. It is a tiny knowledge given to man by God. Concept of evolution has inherent flaws. If Darwin’s theory is correct, then why we still have monkey’s. They all should have transformed into humans.
Evolution is a Fitanah of Dajjal in my view
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Peacefully
01-23-2018, 07:28 PM
i dont get into all the lableing and the creating of an "us vs them" dialog. quran supports evolution, evolution has some science to back it... would make no sense to dismiss it. nothing unislamic about it according to allah (quran).

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sorry for the double post. im new here still getting use to it.

but its not that simple. darwinism (right or wrong) doesnt say all monkeys should have transformed into humans lol it doesnt even say humans came from monkeys.

it proves we have a common ancestor
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Good brother
01-23-2018, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kashif Amin
Science is man made. It is a tiny knowledge given to man by God. Concept of evolution has inherent flaws. If Darwin’s theory is correct, then why we still have monkey’s. They all should have transformed into humans.
Assalam alaikum

The scientific evolution:

'change over time', 'descent with modification', or 'the change of allele frequencies of a population over time'.

This is well established, testable, falsifiable and provable.

"Evolution" according to neo-darwinian scenario:

'the idea that all life has descended from a single common ancestor over millions of years via a net gain in new genetic information'.

This is laughable Speculation; completely half baked, not testable, not falsifiable and not provable.

http://quranscientificerror.blogspot...evolution.html
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Mustafa16
01-23-2018, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kashif Amin
Science is man made. It is a tiny knowledge given to man by God. Concept of evolution has inherent flaws. If Darwin’s theory is correct, then why we still have monkey’s. They all should have transformed into humans.
we didn't evolve from monkeys, according to Darwin. Know what your arguing against. It makes you sound more credible to atheists. He said monkeys, apes, and humans evolved from a common ancestor that was neither ape, human, nor monkey.
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Good brother
01-23-2018, 09:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mustafa16
we didn't evolve from monkeys, according to Darwin. Know what your arguing against. It makes you sound more credible to atheists. He said monkeys, apes, and humans evolved from a common ancestor that was neither ape, human, nor monkey.
The original ancestor - according to them- is a single microbe-like organism, they argue that this organism was created somehow then it "evolved" to form life, plants and animals.
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Eric H
01-23-2018, 10:42 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Mustafa16;

we didn't evolve from monkeys, according to Darwin. Know what your arguing against. It makes you sound more credible to atheists. He said monkeys, apes, and humans evolved from a common ancestor that was neither ape, human, nor monkey.
If that is the case, then humans, monkeys and apes have clay or dirt as their common ancestor. Adam was made of clay and dirt from Earth.

I think the theory of evolution is sadly lacking.

In the spirit of searching for our Creator.

Eric
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Scimitar
01-23-2018, 10:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
If that is the case, then humans, monkeys and apes have clay or dirt as their common ancestor.
:) love it when the gems drop like this ;)
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Mustafa16
01-23-2018, 11:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Good brother
The original ancestor - according to them- is a single microbe-like organism, they argue that this organism was created somehow then it "evolved" to form life, plants and animals.
No, no, no, you misunderstood, not the common ancestor of all life, the common ancestor of apes, monkeys, and humans. which died out and branched out into apes, moneys, and humans.
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Abz2000
01-24-2018, 05:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kashif Amin
Science is man made. It is a tiny knowledge given to man by God. Concept of evolution has inherent flaws. If Darwin’s theory is correct, then why we still have monkey’s. They all should have transformed into humans.

One of the realities of life is that individuals or groups often see another individual or group that is able to think in the same fashion (on the same level with a similar brain map and ability to read or interpret the others' position and next move) and which use the same resources - as a direct threat, especially when interaction is high and hostile - it's a tribal survival thing.

If monkeys were more similar to humans than they are, they'd most likely end up in a deadly conflict until one prevails.
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Ümit
01-24-2018, 12:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Mustafa16;



If that is the case, then humans, monkeys and apes have clay or dirt as their common ancestor. Adam was made of clay and dirt from Earth.

I think the theory of evolution is sadly lacking.

In the spirit of searching for our Creator.

Eric
lacking maybe, but you do not see the link here.
Adam was made of clay and dirt...true...
but who is saying that all animals are NOT made of clay and dirt?
if an animal dies, its body will eventually decompose into clay and dirt...just like human bodies...which is an indication that animals are also made of the same material.
See there...the link between evolution and creation.

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format_quote Originally Posted by Kashif Amin
Science is man made. It is a tiny knowledge given to man by God. Concept of evolution has inherent flaws. If Darwin’s theory is correct, then why we still have monkey’s. They all should have transformed into humans.
bullshit argument.
science and evolution theory are man made, yes...I have no doubt that they have inherent flaws...also true...but even then, you cannot just disregard it.
science might not be flawless, but it is good enough to build rockets, or develop your iphone or your GPS system.
the laws of newton were always OK untill good old Einstein came along and proved that the formulas were not accurate enough for speeds approaching light speed. this is an example of science with a flaw in it, but which is good enough to work with on lower velocities.
The same with evolution...I have no doubt that there are a lot of flaws in it...perhaps the whole evolution thing is bullshit...but facts and research point in that direction right now.
again...evolution does not prove or disprove the existence of Allah...let that be clear...
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sister herb
01-24-2018, 02:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kashif Amin
Science is man made. It is a tiny knowledge given to man by God. Concept of evolution has inherent flaws. If Darwin’s theory is correct, then why we still have monkey’s. They all should have transformed into humans.
Science is man´s way try to explain the miracles of Allah.

No no this theory of apes is not correct. Why all the cats are not lions? Why here is different types of rhinos? Why so many different trees? Why all trees aren´t same?
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azc
01-24-2018, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MuhammadHamza1
Assalamu Alaikum.Please note.1)-That the Earth has to be billions of years old for the theory of evolution to be true.Evolution is a slow process that requires billions of years.Hence,if the Earth is let us say,only a few thousands or even some hundred of thousand years old,Evolution cannot occur and this theory is false.2)-The Presenter is a Christian.The Quran has ordered us Muslims to judge previous scriptures by using the Quran as criterian,i.e,that which agrees with the Quran,Muslims agree that it is the truth.And that part of the scriptures,which disagree with the Quran,we disregard them.The Presenter presents Bible verses throughout his presentation.And they are in agreement with the Islamic view.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_OlX7M5MLA- - - Updated - - -Moreover,this person is also a Zionist.I recommend you not to listen to his videos other than Evolution and his debates with Evolutionists.
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/evolve.htm

- - - Updated - - -

format_quote Originally Posted by MuhammadHamza1
Assalamu Alaikum.Please note.1)-That the Earth has to be billions of years old for the theory of evolution to be true.Evolution is a slow process that requires billions of years.Hence,if the Earth is let us say,only a few thousands or even some hundred of thousand years old,Evolution cannot occur and this theory is false.2)-The Presenter is a Christian.The Quran has ordered us Muslims to judge previous scriptures by using the Quran as criterian,i.e,that which agrees with the Quran,Muslims agree that it is the truth.And that part of the scriptures,which disagree with the Quran,we disregard them.The Presenter presents Bible verses throughout his presentation.And they are in agreement with the Islamic view.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_OlX7M5MLA- - - Updated - - -Moreover,this person is also a Zionist.I recommend you not to listen to his videos other than Evolution and his debates with Evolutionists.
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/evolve.htm
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Mustafa16
01-26-2018, 08:24 PM
More proof evolution is false: http://questionsonislam.com/article/...cess-evolution
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Mustafa16
01-26-2018, 08:32 PM
more proof this time from a christian website that uses scientific evidence: https://www.ucg.org/vertical-thought...hout-the-bible
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Zzz_
01-26-2018, 08:46 PM
an interesting read - https://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html
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Kashif Amin
01-27-2018, 05:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Science is man´s way try to explain the miracles of Allah.

No no this theory of apes is not correct. Why all the cats are not lions? Why here is different types of rhinos? Why so many different trees? Why all trees aren´t same?
Then Have you come across a person who is half man and half ape. Or having 25 IQ or even 15 IQ. Theory of evolution is false. Even some devaint scholars like Harun Yahya have this view.
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Ümit
01-27-2018, 12:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kashif Amin
Then Have you come across a person who is half man and half ape. Or having 25 IQ or even 15 IQ. Theory of evolution is false. Even some devaint scholars like Harun Yahya have this view.
Harun Yahya is an idiot. What he says is insignificant. Besides....he is a perfect example of half man half ape creature with İQ of 25!
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azc
01-27-2018, 01:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kashif Amin
Then Have you come across a person who is half man and half ape. Or having 25 IQ or even 15 IQ. Theory of evolution is false. Even some devaint scholars like Harun Yahya have this view.
Why is Harun Yahya deviant...?

format_quote Originally Posted by umie
Harun Yahya is an idiot. What he says is insignificant. Besides....he is a perfect example of half man half ape creature with İQ of 25!
Reason for calling this scholar as idiot...?
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Kashif Amin
01-27-2018, 02:03 PM
Why is Harun Yahya deviant...?

Answer- He is a freemasonary
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Kashif Amin
01-27-2018, 02:05 PM
He was initally Anti Freemason
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Kashif Amin
01-27-2018, 02:06 PM
But now he has become a freemason
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Kashif Amin
01-27-2018, 02:07 PM
Formerly (Anti Freemason)
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Kashif Amin
01-27-2018, 02:36 PM
No doubt Harun Yahya has done a great service to Islam. He has written a number of books on scientific aspects of the Noble Quran and has rejected evolution. He has also Written a number of books on Portents of the Hour. However since recent times (10 years) he has become a freemasonary . He has mixed the truth with falsehood. Bilal Phillips has also criticized him in a video. If anyone has done much good deeds does not mean whatever his (here-later) views he has are all acceptable. The same is the case with Waheed Ud Deen Khan.
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azc
01-27-2018, 04:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kashif Amin
No doubt Harun Yahya has done a great service to Islam. He has written a number of books on scientific aspects of the Noble Quran and has rejected evolution. He has also Written a number of books on Portents of the Hour. However since recent times (10 years) he has become a freemasonary . He has mixed the truth with falsehood. Bilal Phillips has also criticized him in a video. If anyone has done much good deeds does not mean whatever his (here-later) views he has are all acceptable. The same is the case with Waheed Ud Deen Khan.
You are free to say what you wish but I abstain from calling scholars as deviant.
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Mustafa16
01-27-2018, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Kashif Amin
No doubt Harun Yahya has done a great service to Islam. He has written a number of books on scientific aspects of the Noble Quran and has rejected evolution. He has also Written a number of books on Portents of the Hour. However since recent times (10 years) he has become a freemasonary . He has mixed the truth with falsehood. Bilal Phillips has also criticized him in a video. If anyone has done much good deeds does not mean whatever his (here-later) views he has are all acceptable. The same is the case with Waheed Ud Deen Khan.
Harun Yahya is a charlatan. His real name is Adnan Oktar, he parades around Istanbul with almost naked women and calls them his "kittens" and has meetings where women sit in the front with fancy clothes and make up.
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Ümit
01-27-2018, 09:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mustafa16
Harun Yahya is a charlatan. His real name is Adnan Oktar, he parades around Istanbul with almost naked women and calls them his "kittens" and has meetings where women sit in the front with fancy clothes and make up.
Exactly...he has a turkish television show where he discusses islam and dances around with half naked women.

He interprets some islamic rules on his own way...

Someone who thinks he is a true islamic scholar is out of his mind
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azc
01-28-2018, 02:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
Exactly...he has a turkish television show where he discusses islam and dances around with half naked women.

He interprets some islamic rules on his own way...

Someone who thinks he is a true islamic scholar is out of his mind
I think you should choose suitable words when you criticise any scholar on the board.

I've never watched, read, listened to Harun Yahya.

But I assert this aspect of Islam that we should not speak ill of scholars whether they are good or bad.

I dislike several scholars but I never disrespect them.

Btw, you are free to say what you wish despite this advice of mine.
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Ümit
01-29-2018, 06:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
I think you should choose suitable words when you criticise any scholar on the board.

I've never watched, read, listened to Harun Yahya.

But I assert this aspect of Islam that we should not speak ill of scholars whether they are good or bad.

I dislike several scholars but I never disrespect them.

Btw, you are free to say what you wish despite this advice of mine.
Normally. I would totally agree with you. A scholar would be someone who studies Islam in great detail with the purpose of enlightening it to others who need it.
This guy however, has no other purpose than fattening his own wallet. He has been charged and sentenced to jail several times. the last time for having a criminal organisation.
This guy has been threatening and blackmailing people to participate in his shows. most, if not all of his "kittens" have undergone plastic surgery. He is not interested in enlightening Islam. He has his own agenda.
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azc
01-29-2018, 06:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
Normally. I would totally agree with you. A scholar would be someone who studies Islam in great detail with the purpose of enlightening it to others who need it.This guy however, has no other purpose than fattening his own wallet. He has been charged and sentenced to jail several times. the last time for having a criminal organisation.This guy has been threatening and blackmailing people to participate in his shows. most, if not all of his "kittens" have undergone plastic surgery. He is not interested in enlightening Islam. He has his own agenda.
everybody is accountable for his own deeds...
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anatolian
01-29-2018, 07:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Mustafa16;



If that is the case, then humans, monkeys and apes have clay or dirt as their common ancestor. Adam was made of clay and dirt from Earth.

I think the theory of evolution is sadly lacking.

In the spirit of searching for our Creator.

Eric
Hijra Eric.Yes humans, apes and monkeys and the other creatures were made of clay and dirt so share the same ancestor. That is how Allah created life on earth and Adam finally through evolution. That makes sense to me from an Islamic and scientific point of view.
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Ümit
01-29-2018, 07:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
everybody is accountable for his own deeds...
yes that is right, but still...he has an examplary function. you cannot say "follow my words, but do not follow my deeds". How would you feel if you got a speeding ticket for only 3 km/h too fast written out by a cop who speeds off afterwards wearing no safety belts? not a nice feeling right?
with his television shows, he gives the illusion that plastical chirurgy and that walking around with heavy make up and half naked is allowed in Islam. So, he is giving mixed signals.
Imagine this...you want information on a specific subject. you know, person X posesses the knowlegde to give you this information. but the information this person X releases, can be heavily influenced by his own morals, motives or his purpose...in other words, you do not know what he wants to achieve with his answer...so the answer can not be trusted.

that is how I feel about this guy...he is not transparent...he is not a teacher I can value...you cannot trust this guy.

have you seen how he has been spending his new years eve? he has been dancing around with multiple women and sitting at a very luxurous table having dinner altogether.
seeing him celebrating new year, and having the question in your mind like "what does Islam say about celebrating new year?" what answer do you expect from such a scholar?

I don't know about you, but I would search for another scholar to answer my questions.

- - - Updated - - -

format_quote Originally Posted by azc
everybody is accountable for his own deeds...
yes that is right, but still...he has an examplary function. you cannot say "follow my words, but do not follow my deeds". How would you feel if you got a speeding ticket for only 3 km/h too fast written out by a cop who speeds off afterwards wearing no safety belts? not a nice feeling right?
with his television shows, he gives the illusion that plastical chirurgy and that walking around with heavy make up and half naked is allowed in Islam. So, he is giving mixed signals.
Imagine this...you want information on a specific subject. you know, person X posesses the knowlegde to give you this information. but the information this person X releases, can be heavily influenced by his own morals, motives or his purpose...in other words, you do not know what he wants to achieve with his answer...so the answer can not be trusted.

that is how I feel about this guy...he is not transparent...he is not a teacher I can value...you cannot trust this guy.

have you seen how he has been spending his new years eve? he has been dancing around with multiple women and sitting at a very luxurous table having dinner altogether.
seeing him celebrating new year, and having the question in your mind like "what does Islam say about celebrating new year?" what answer do you expect from such a scholar?

I don't know about you, but I would search for another scholar to answer my questions.
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azc
01-29-2018, 08:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
yes that is right, but still...he has an examplary function. you cannot say "follow my words, but do not follow my deeds". How would you feel if you got a speeding ticket for only 3 km/h too fast written out by a cop who speeds off afterwards wearing no safety belts? not a nice feeling right?with his television shows, he gives the illusion that plastical chirurgy and that walking around with heavy make up and half naked is allowed in Islam. So, he is giving mixed signals.Imagine this...you want information on a specific subject. you know, person X posesses the knowlegde to give you this information. but the information this person X releases, can be heavily influenced by his own morals, motives or his purpose...in other words, you do not know what he wants to achieve with his answer...so the answer can not be trusted.that is how I feel about this guy...he is not transparent...he is not a teacher I can value...you cannot trust this guy.have you seen how he has been spending his new years eve? he has been dancing around with multiple women and sitting at a very luxurous table having dinner altogether.seeing him celebrating new year, and having the question in your mind like "what does Islam say about celebrating new year?" what answer do you expect from such a scholar?I don't know about you, but I would search for another scholar to answer my questions.- - - Updated - - -yes that is right, but still...he has an examplary function. you cannot say "follow my words, but do not follow my deeds". How would you feel if you got a speeding ticket for only 3 km/h too fast written out by a cop who speeds off afterwards wearing no safety belts? not a nice feeling right?with his television shows, he gives the illusion that plastical chirurgy and that walking around with heavy make up and half naked is allowed in Islam. So, he is giving mixed signals.Imagine this...you want information on a specific subject. you know, person X posesses the knowlegde to give you this information. but the information this person X releases, can be heavily influenced by his own morals, motives or his purpose...in other words, you do not know what he wants to achieve with his answer...so the answer can not be trusted.that is how I feel about this guy...he is not transparent...he is not a teacher I can value...you cannot trust this guy.have you seen how he has been spending his new years eve? he has been dancing around with multiple women and sitting at a very luxurous table having dinner altogether.seeing him celebrating new year, and having the question in your mind like "what does Islam say about celebrating new year?" what answer do you expect from such a scholar?I don't know about you, but I would search for another scholar to answer my questions.
Having been punished for sins even the deviant scholars probably be ranked on higher level than us in jannah for knowledge of Quran and Hadith. However, we can abstain from following them
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Ümit
01-29-2018, 09:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
Having been punished for sins even the deviant scholars probably be ranked on higher level than us in jannah for knowledge of Quran and Hadith. However, we can abstain from following them
No.
With the right intention and use of this knowledge, yes you are propbably right. If you have the intention as an examplary scholar to guide people to the truth and to enlighten them...and by doing that you accidentally give the wrong information...then, yes...this person probably still has a higher rank in jannah than most of us despite this accidental wrong information...because this was not his intention to misguide people.


But in this case...on purpose giving out mixed signals. shouting stuff which are not clear why he said that (is it really the truth? or does he have some hidden purpose behind his words?
Do you know how big the sin is of misguiding people on purpose?
an indication...Allah can fogive you every sin if you seek forgiveness from it....but He will NOT forgive the sins which include doing wrong to others...in these cases you have to ask forgiveness to the people who you wronged. if they forgive you..then, and only then, Allah will forgive you too.
otherwise, this would be injustice to the others.
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azc
01-29-2018, 11:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
No.
With the right intention and use of this knowledge, yes you are propbably right. If you have the intention as an examplary scholar to guide people to the truth and to enlighten them...and by doing that you accidentally give the wrong information...then, yes...this person probably still has a higher rank in jannah than most of us despite this accidental wrong information...because this was not his intention to misguide people.


But in this case...on purpose giving out mixed signals. shouting stuff which are not clear why he said that (is it really the truth? or does he have some hidden purpose behind his words?
Do you know how big the sin is of misguiding people on purpose?
an indication...Allah can fogive you every sin if you seek forgiveness from it....but He will NOT forgive the sins which include doing wrong to others...in these cases you have to ask forgiveness to the people who you wronged. if they forgive you..then, and only then, Allah will forgive you too.
otherwise, this would be injustice to the others.
Followers will also be held responsible in this case, as to why they didn't use their reasoning power. It's not so simple as you think.
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Ümit
01-29-2018, 11:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
Followers will also be held responsible in this case, as to why they didn't use their reasoning power. It's not so simple as you think.
yes of course. that is true...but still. there is always this misleading on purpose thing. guiding people in such a way he can benefit from them. the intention is wrong.
Of course there are people who see through that, and do not fall for it...but then, there are also people who do beleive him.
now you can say, they are responsible who they are following...but not everyone can clearly see that his intentions are not completely correct. and these people can not always be held responsible for the full 100% for being misled.

besides, do you think he earns much credits for having such wrong intentions? I doubt that...but Allah knows best of course.
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azc
01-29-2018, 12:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
yes of course. that is true...but still. there is always this misleading on purpose thing. guiding people in such a way he can benefit from them. the intention is wrong.Of course there are people who see through that, and do not fall for it...but then, there are also people who do beleive him.now you can say, they are responsible who they are following...but not everyone can clearly see that his intentions are not completely correct. and these people can not always be held responsible for the full 100% for being misled.besides, do you think he earns much credits for having such wrong intentions? I doubt that...but Allah knows best of course.
shaytan mislead us and we are misled. In this case, will we be held responsible for following shaytan...? If not, then you are right that followers of wrong scholars will not be held responsible otherwise you are not right
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Ümit
01-29-2018, 01:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
shaytan mislead us and we are misled. In this case, will we be held responsible for following shaytan...? If not, then you are right that followers of wrong scholars will not be held responsible otherwise you are not right
No. that is not the same.
In the case of the shaytaan, you know he cannot be trusted so following him is wrong and therefore you will be held responsible for that.
In the case of this scholar...you do not explicitely know he is wrong. There are still numerous people out there who are easiliy pursuaded or manipulated. they do not always manage to see that something is wrong. like said, they are looking for answers to their questions, and this guy gives them the "answers" but not neccessarily the correct answer. They just trust him because he knows so much.
in short, these followers are on the right path...with right intentions...but they stumble upon the wrong person. that is a different case.
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azc
01-29-2018, 02:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
No. that is not the same.In the case of the shaytaan, you know he cannot be trusted so following him is wrong and therefore you will be held responsible for that.In the case of this scholar...you do not explicitely know he is wrong. There are still numerous people out there who are easiliy pursuaded or manipulated. they do not always manage to see that something is wrong. like said, they are looking for answers to their questions, and this guy gives them the "answers" but not neccessarily the correct answer. They just trust him because he knows so much. in short, these followers are on the right path...with right intentions...but they stumble upon the wrong person. that is a different case.
even those people who didn't get the msg of Islam and remained in darkness without knowing who is their creator will be accountable for not using their reasoning power to recognise their Lord let alone the followers of such scholars
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Ümit
01-30-2018, 08:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
even those people who didn't get the msg of Islam and remained in darkness without knowing who is their creator will be accountable for not using their reasoning power to recognise their Lord let alone the followers of such scholars
yes that is true of course...but still...

its kinda like you are saying that everyone who ever got ripped off, swindled or conned, has to blame himself for it because he did not use his proper reasoning at that moment. like imposters, frauds, scammers and lyers cannot be blamed anything, because we were stupid enough to believe in them.

It is about trusting these people. it is about believing in them that they tell you things to enlighten you, and not to earn your naive trust and benefit from you later on.
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azc
01-30-2018, 11:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
yes that is true of course...but still...its kinda like you are saying that everyone who ever got ripped off, swindled or conned, has to blame himself for it because he did not use his proper reasoning at that moment. like imposters, frauds, scammers and lyers cannot be blamed anything, because we were stupid enough to believe in them. It is about trusting these people. it is about believing in them that they tell you things to enlighten you, and not to earn your naive trust and benefit from you later on.
So, followers will not be held responsible... Right..?
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Ümit
01-30-2018, 01:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
So, followers will not be held responsible... Right..?
wrong...
It is not so black and white as you think. there are many graytones in between.
there are parts or situations where the followers should have known better so they are responsible for it...but there are also parts where the follower has no blame so then they are not responsible.
but the scholar who deliberately provides information just for his own benefit, is always responsible...and partially responsible for the actions the follower takes which flow directly from that.
But if the scholar provides information which was not accurate, but he did not do that on purpose...then he is not responsible of course.

being a scholar is a big responsibility...it can lead you to jannah if your intensions are good...but it can also lead you to jahannam really quickly.
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azc
01-30-2018, 04:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
wrong...It is not so black and white as you think. there are many graytones in between.there are parts or situations where the followers should have known better so they are responsible for it...but there are also parts where the follower has no blame so then they are not responsible.but the scholar who deliberately provides information just for his own benefit, is always responsible...and partially responsible for the actions the follower takes which flow directly from that.But if the scholar provides information which was not accurate, but he did not do that on purpose...then he is not responsible of course.being a scholar is a big responsibility...it can lead you to jannah if your intensions are good...but it can also lead you to jahannam really quickly.
Remember) the day when We will call every people with their imam. (surah bani israeel #71)
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Silas
01-30-2018, 04:37 PM
Didn't the Islamic scholar Mohamed Ghlian suggest that humanity arose from a single ancestor of some kind? Others have said that there were creatures on Earth before humans, which could of course be other forms of life (single-celled organisms, bacteria, etc.)

Throughout history, there has been support for the concept of the Darwinian "survival/struggle of the fittest" among many Muslim writers.
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azc
01-30-2018, 06:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Silas
Didn't the Islamic scholar Mohamed Ghlian suggest that humanity arose from a single ancestor of some kind? Others have said that there were creatures on Earth before humans, which could of course be other forms of life (single-celled organisms, bacteria, etc.)

Throughout history, there has been support for the concept of the Darwinian "survival/struggle of the fittest" among many Muslim writers.
This kind of opinion of a socalled Muslim scholar is reprehensible.

Quran vividly says:

“Verily, the likeness of ‘Eesa (Jesus) before Allaah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!’ — and he was”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:59]
https://islamqa.info/en/13286
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Silas
01-30-2018, 07:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
This kind of opinion of a socalled Muslim scholar is reprehensible.

Quran vividly says:

“Verily, the likeness of ‘Eesa (Jesus) before Allaah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!’ — and he was”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:59]
https://islamqa.info/en/13286
But there is another way of looking at this yes? As one scholar writes:

"(Allah is He) who has made everything He created better, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay (Al-Sajda, 32: 7).

In this verse, we are told that the first creation of human beings was out of clay, but that was the beginning. The most relevant word in this verse is "began" (bada-a), which tells us clearly that the creation happened in a process that had a beginning. It did not happen at once"

In other words, creation is not something that occurs in an instant (although Allah could certainly make it so), but is a process of becoming. As in the earlier passages of the Quran, which state that the heavens and the earth were like one before being separated, we see hints at how the world was formed. Science tells us cosmic dust and heavy elements swirled around (by gravity) and ultimately coalesced into the planets--there was a separation. Later, it is mentioned that life comes from water, and this is clearly the case, as water has existed on Earth for 4.7 billion years (before any living being) and is a necessary element of all life.

So could it be that Allah has gathered up the "dust" or "clay" necessary to create Adam and Eve, and set the process of evolution in motion, knowing full well where it would end?

7 million years is but an instant to a God that lives beyond and outside of time
Reply

Good brother
01-30-2018, 08:11 PM
Silas, the ayah you mentioned refer to Prophet Adam and the ayah after it 32:8 refutes your position.
Reply

azc
01-31-2018, 02:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Silas
But there is another way of looking at this yes? As one scholar writes:

"(Allah is He) who has made everything He created better, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay (Al-Sajda, 32: 7).

In this verse, we are told that the first creation of human beings was out of clay, but that was the beginning. The most relevant word in this verse is "began" (bada-a), which tells us clearly that the creation happened in a process that had a beginning. It did not happen at once"

In other words, creation is not something that occurs in an instant (although Allah could certainly make it so), but is a process of becoming. As in the earlier passages of the Quran, which state that the heavens and the earth were like one before being separated, we see hints at how the world was formed. Science tells us cosmic dust and heavy elements swirled around (by gravity) and ultimately coalesced into the planets--there was a separation. Later, it is mentioned that life comes from water, and this is clearly the case, as water has existed on Earth for 4.7 billion years (before any living being) and is a necessary element of all life.

So could it be that Allah has gathered up the "dust" or "clay" necessary to create Adam and Eve, and set the process of evolution in motion, knowing full well where it would end?

7 million years is but an instant to a God that lives beyond and outside of time
"O mankind! if you have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (Our Power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babies, then (foster you) that you may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much). And (further), you see the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth in pairs" (22:5)

Indeed, process of creation, from the beginning till completion is a fact
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Ümit
01-31-2018, 10:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by reyditia
Yes , I even heard that it is formed in 7 days , do you believe that ?
We defined one day as the time the sun needs to "travel" across the sky and make one full orbit.
When Allah created the universe, there was no Earth, sun or moon...so no years, months days or hours.
So, 7 days in the Quran does not have to mean 7 Earthly days.
sure you have heard how time can be experienced totally different in thehereafter.
one second on Earth can take several years on thehereafter...or vice versa, several decades on Earth can be experienced as seconds in thehereafter.
also 7, 70, 70.000 can be used differently in Arabic for what I know.
like in english saying something like "I've already told you 100 (or 1000) times"...you do not actually mean 100 or 1000...but you mean a lot.
Reply

MuhammadHamza1
01-31-2018, 02:22 PM
Islam does not at all agree with Darwinian evolution.The one who says so is going against the consensus of the Scholors and must repent.Darwinian evolution says that all living things have arisen from one single PROKARYOTE.Secondly,Darwinian evolution has no evidence.It is based on assumptions.Scientists cannot even consider creation.As it is clearly unthinkable from secular point of view.But as said in the video,We can prove the existence of God by proving that it is impossible for things to have been created by their own,hence,showing that there has to be intelligent design.The few attempts to create life in the laboratory,had to have some artificially induced and created situations in these experiments.Also,please research about law of Thermodynamics.
Reply

Ümit
01-31-2018, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MuhammadHamza1
Islam does not at all agree with Darwinian evolution.The one who says so is going against the consensus of the Scholors and must repent.Darwinian evolution says that all living things have arisen from one single PROKARYOTE.Secondly,Darwinian evolution has no evidence.It is based on assumptions.Scientists cannot even consider creation.As it is clearly unthinkable from secular point of view.But as said in the video,We can prove the existence of God by proving that it is impossible for things to have been created by their own,hence,showing that there has to be intelligent design.The few attempts to create life in the laboratory,had to have some artificially induced and created situations in these experiments.Also,please research about law of Thermodynamics.
Dear brother,
Sorry to say this, but I see here some arguments without properly backing it up.

Islam does not have to agree with Darwinian evolution. Islam is a fact. In science, we just collects the facts and trie to come up with an explanation for them. we develop theories and test those, and then we modify our original theory. that is how science works. indeed, some assumptions are being made, but always in combination with facts.
About the Darwinian evolution. Facts point in the direction of evolution (I am not saying that it is proven...but they point in that direction.) Darwin came up with this theory of evolution. I am not saying that evolution fully took place as Darwin described it. I am sure there are some errors in it which will be proven in the near future.
But what I mean: Allah could have used the evolution as a tool for his creation...So I think that evolution is pretty plausible...we must not rule that option out.
whether or not everything existed out of a single proka-something does not make a difference.

In classical laws of physics for example everyone agreed proven that speeds in exactly the same direction could be added up.
if you are in a train moving forward with 100mph and you stand up and walk towards the front of the train with 5mph, then your speed would be 100+5=105mph.

this was always logical...and it was proven...but then came Einstein and he has proven this unnaccurate for speeds approaching light speed.

So science develops all the time.
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Peacefully
01-31-2018, 04:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MuhammadHamza1
Islam does not at all agree with Darwinian evolution.The one who says so is going against the consensus of the Scholors and must repent.
scholars are fallible
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azc
01-31-2018, 04:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Peacefully
scholars are fallible
but consensus of scholars is protected from error
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Peacefully
01-31-2018, 04:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
but consensus of scholars is protected from error
did allah say that?

while hadith are fundamental, hadith are also fallible too.
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Good brother
01-31-2018, 05:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Peacefully
did allah say that?

while hadith are fundamental, hadith are also fallible too.
1-Allah said Adam is the first human.

2- Neo-darwinian theory is non-provable and non-falsifiable. It's just conjecture.
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Peacefully
01-31-2018, 05:15 PM
i dont disagree brother.
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azc
01-31-2018, 06:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Peacefully
did allah say that?while hadith are fundamental, hadith are also fallible too.
''And whoever opposes the Messenger (s.a.w) after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the believers - We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination. {Quran 4:115} ....Therefore, if the believers maintain consensus over an issue, those who oppose are threatened with torment in hell

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format_quote Originally Posted by Peacefully
did allah say that?

while hadith are fundamental, hadith are also fallible too.
Are you a hadith rejector.? This clarification is needed
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Peacefully
01-31-2018, 06:29 PM
no, i am not a hadith rejector. i just approach hadith with modesty and stay intuned to the fact that hadith are fallible.

as for the quran quote, believing that darwinism is deserving of more investigation instead of being blindly ignored because of hadith is not opposing muhammads (pbuh) message or deem a person and unbliever.

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*nor deem a person an unbeliever

sorry, dont know how to edit a post on here yet
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azc
01-31-2018, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Peacefully
no, i am not a hadith rejector. i just approach hadith with modesty and stay intuned to the fact that hadith are fallible.

as for the quran quote, believing that darwinism is deserving of more investigation instead of being blindly ignored because of hadith is not opposing muhammads (pbuh) message or deem a person and unbliever.

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*nor deem a person an unbeliever

sorry, dont know how to edit a post on here yet
When we have Quran and ahadith in our hands then what is the need to believe in any other 'ISM
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Peacefully
01-31-2018, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
When we have Quran and ahadith in our hands then what is the need to believe in any other 'ISM
“Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim.”

Source: Sunan Ibn Mājah 224

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no need to believe in any other 'ism, but knowing (seeking knowledge) is an obligation.

i do not say you are wrong for not believing in darwinism, but telling someone they are wrong for learning it is unislamic.
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azc
02-01-2018, 02:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Peacefully
“Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim.”

Source: Sunan Ibn Mājah 224

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no need to believe in any other 'ism, but knowing (seeking knowledge) is an obligation.

i do not say you are wrong for not believing in darwinism, but telling someone they are wrong for learning it is unislamic.
“Seeking knowledge is an obligation upon every Muslim.”
Yes, here obligation meant to getting the basic knowledge of shariah which enables you to differentiate between haram and halal.

"O Allah, I seek beneficial knowledge, wide sustenance and cure from all ailments from You".
(Hisnul Hasin)

And the knowledge which goes against the Islamic shariah in any form is harmful for iman.
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Peacefully
02-01-2018, 02:28 AM
i leave it to god (quran) to tell me what is not beneficial knowledge as humans are fallible.

i will agree to disagree.

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i feel you can not say something is wrong, haram or against shariah if you have no knowledge of it.
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azc
02-01-2018, 02:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Peacefully
i leave it to god (quran) to tell me what is not beneficial knowledge as humans are fallible.i will agree to disagree.- - - Updated - - -i feel you can not say something is wrong, haram or against shariah if you have no knowledge of it.
Do you want that Allah swt should tell you about this matter as humans are fallible...?
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crimsontide06
02-01-2018, 03:05 AM
I did not click the link but....

Evolution is real (not the humans came from monkeys part) but things change over time...etc. God created evolution, science, the solar system, nature...and how it all works.
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ChosenTCO
02-01-2018, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
Yes, here obligation meant to getting the basic knowledge of shariah which enables you to differentiate between haram and halal.

"O Allah, I seek beneficial knowledge, wide sustenance and cure from all ailments from You".
(Hisnul Hasin)

And the knowledge which goes against the Islamic shariah in any form is harmful for iman.
:sl:

Brother, I would have to disagree with you there. Seeking beneficial knowledge is something and actively looking for it is something else. You can never know if something is fully useful to you or not until you study it thoroughly and attaining as much of information as you can to give it a fair case. For example, if you and i were to look into the usefulness of making a full multi-billion-dollar organisation like NASA just to send people and advanced telescopes in to space, we would probably quickly dismiss the idea as we would feel that it is completely useless to look into the void not knowing what to look for. However, God ordered us to do so in many things, even ourselves. He ordered us to ponder about how he created the heavens and earth, humans and animals, plants, rivers and mountains. All of theses’ origins ... If we (as humans) didnt send those advanced telescopes to space, we would not have been able to definitively confirm the bigbang theory Proving what Allah has already stated in the Quran 1400 years ago. Likewise, evolution and the origins of life. When you look into evolution and carefully study it, you will find that the logic behind it is almost infallible (i say almost!).

HOWEVER, when it comes to the origins of humans. Thats where we, as muslims, draw the line. This is because there are plenty of saheeh ahadeeths (From what i have been told) that talk about the formation of Adam :as: and is origins, so we cannot say that evolution applies to him. On the other hand, there is no mention of the origins of the other living creatures on earth, and that is why we can apply the theory of evolution to other earthly beings without contradicting our Religion. Hope this clears things up a little ...

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format_quote Originally Posted by azc
Yes, here obligation meant to getting the basic knowledge of shariah which enables you to differentiate between haram and halal.

"O Allah, I seek beneficial knowledge, wide sustenance and cure from all ailments from You".
(Hisnul Hasin)

And the knowledge which goes against the Islamic shariah in any form is harmful for iman.
:sl:

Brother, I would have to disagree with you there. Seeking beneficial knowledge is something and actively looking for it is something else. You can never know if something is fully useful to you or not until you study it thoroughly and attaining as much of information as you can to give it a fair case. For example, if you and i were to look into the usefulness of making a full multi-billion-dollar organisation like NASA just to send people and advanced telescopes in to space, we would probably quickly dismiss the idea as we would feel that it is completely useless to look into the void not knowing what to look for. However, God ordered us to do so in many things, even ourselves. He ordered us to ponder about how he created the heavens and earth, humans and animals, plants, rivers and mountains. All of theses’ origins ... If we (as humans) didnt send those advanced telescopes to space, we would not have been able to definitively confirm the bigbang theory Proving what Allah has already stated in the Quran 1400 years ago. Likewise, evolution and the origins of life. When you look into evolution and carefully study it, you will find that the logic behind it is almost infallible (i say almost!).

HOWEVER, when it comes to the origins of humans. Thats where we, as muslims, draw the line. This is because there are plenty of saheeh ahadeeths (From what i have been told) that talk about the formation of Adam :as: and is origins, so we cannot say that evolution applies to him. On the other hand, there is no mention of the origins of the other living creatures on earth, and that is why we can apply the theory of evolution to other earthly beings without contradicting our Religion. Hope this clears things up a little ...
Reply

azc
02-01-2018, 05:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
:sl:

Brother, I would have to disagree with you there. Seeking beneficial knowledge is something and actively looking for it is something else. You can never know if something is fully useful to you or not until you study it thoroughly and attaining as much of information as you can to give it a fair case. For example, if you and i were to look into the usefulness of making a full multi-billion-dollar organisation like NASA just to send people and advanced telescopes in to space, we would probably quickly dismiss the idea as we would feel that it is completely useless to look into the void not knowing what to look for. However, God ordered us to do so in many things, even ourselves. He ordered us to ponder about how he created the heavens and earth, humans and animals, plants, rivers and mountains. All of theses’ origins ... If we (as humans) didnt send those advanced telescopes to space, we would not have been able to definitively confirm the bigbang theory Proving what Allah has already stated in the Quran 1400 years ago. Likewise, evolution and the origins of life. When you look into evolution and carefully study it, you will find that the logic behind it is almost infallible (i say almost!).

HOWEVER, when it comes to the origins of humans. Thats where we, as muslims, draw the line. This is because there are plenty of saheeh ahadeeths (From what i have been told) that talk about the formation of Adam :as: and is origins, so we cannot say that evolution applies to him. On the other hand, there is no mention of the origins of the other living creatures on earth, and that is why we can apply the theory of evolution to other earthly beings without contradicting our Religion. Hope this clears things up a little ...

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:sl:

Brother, I would have to disagree with you there. Seeking beneficial knowledge is something and actively looking for it is something else. You can never know if something is fully useful to you or not until you study it thoroughly and attaining as much of information as you can to give it a fair case. For example, if you and i were to look into the usefulness of making a full multi-billion-dollar organisation like NASA just to send people and advanced telescopes in to space, we would probably quickly dismiss the idea as we would feel that it is completely useless to look into the void not knowing what to look for. However, God ordered us to do so in many things, even ourselves. He ordered us to ponder about how he created the heavens and earth, humans and animals, plants, rivers and mountains. All of theses’ origins ... If we (as humans) didnt send those advanced telescopes to space, we would not have been able to definitively confirm the bigbang theory Proving what Allah has already stated in the Quran 1400 years ago. Likewise, evolution and the origins of life. When you look into evolution and carefully study it, you will find that the logic behind it is almost infallible (i say almost!).

HOWEVER, when it comes to the origins of humans. Thats where we, as muslims, draw the line. This is because there are plenty of saheeh ahadeeths (From what i have been told) that talk about the formation of Adam :as: and is origins, so we cannot say that evolution applies to him. On the other hand, there is no mention of the origins of the other living creatures on earth, and that is why we can apply the theory of evolution to other earthly beings without contradicting our Religion. Hope this clears things up a little ...
in short, if you are a scientist and do research and it makes you closer to Allah swt then it's beneficial knowledge but if you become an atheist, it's not beneficial, rather it changes into an haram act as you will mislead other Muslims as well.
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Ümit
02-01-2018, 07:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
in short, if you are a scientist and do research and it makes you closer to Allah swt then it's beneficial knowledge but if you become an atheist, it's not beneficial, rather it changes into an haram act as you will mislead other Muslims as well.
I am not sure of this. If you keep your conclusions based on facts...not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice...then it should not mislead other Muslims. As a scientist your goal is to discover the unknown, not to persuade Muslims into atheism.
Under these conditions, the knowledge of this particular atheist scientist, could still bring Muslims closer to Allah....and therefore be beneficial.

In fact...isn't all knowledge beneficial? of course there can be personal information sometimes which is better for you to not know...but I mean knowledge in general...can that be unbeneficial, and if yes, can you give one example of unbeneficial knowledge?

How I think about unbeneficial knowledge is this:
knowledge is like a weapon. in the hands of the goods, the weapon is good. in the hands of the wrong, the weapon is bad. But the weapon on its own is good nor bad.
the same with knowledge. The same knowledge who brings someone closer to Allah can cause some other away from Allah and therefore becom unbeneficial for this person.
like evolution...evolution appearantly was unbeneficial to Darwin...but to me personally it is beneficial knowledge because know I understand better how Allah created us Alhamdulillah.
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ChosenTCO
02-01-2018, 08:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
I am not sure of this. If you keep your conclusions based on facts...not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice...then it should not mislead other Muslims. As a scientist your goal is to discover the unknown, not to persuade Muslims into atheism.
Under these conditions, the knowledge of this particular atheist scientist, could still bring Muslims closer to Allah....and therefore be beneficial.

In fact...isn't all knowledge beneficial? of course there can be personal information sometimes which is better for you to not know...but I mean knowledge in general...can that be unbeneficial, and if yes, can you give one example of unbeneficial knowledge?

How I think about unbeneficial knowledge is this:
knowledge is like a weapon. in the hands of the goods, the weapon is good. in the hands of the wrong, the weapon is bad. But the weapon on its own is good nor bad.
the same with knowledge. The same knowledge who brings someone closer to Allah can cause some other away from Allah and therefore becom unbeneficial for this person.
like evolution...evolution appearantly was unbeneficial to Darwin...but to me personally it is beneficial knowledge because know I understand better how Allah created us Alhamdulillah.
Evolution aside, the topic about knowledge in general, whether good or bad is really mind boggling to me. I am a strong believer that gaining knowledge in general is good, and just like you said, it depends upon the person who learns it and how it affect him or how he uses it. But at the same time, we have things like black magic, where in islam, people are encouraged to not even to go close to it. It is even said that a person who goes to a sooth sayer for fun or laughs wont have his salat accepted for 40 days or something.

So it really is an unclear topic which feels like you cant really get a definitive answer. On one hand, logic and parts of the religion promotes all learning, and other parts such as things related to black magic tells us another ^o) ... opinions?
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Ümit
02-01-2018, 09:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
Evolution aside, the topic about knowledge in general, whether good or bad is really mind boggling to me. I am a strong believer that gaining knowledge in general is good, and just like you said, it depends upon the person who learns it and how it affect him or how he uses it. But at the same time, we have things like black magic, where in islam, people are encouraged to not even to go close to it. It is even said that a person who goes to a sooth sayer for fun or laughs wont have his salat accepted for 40 days or something.

So it really is an unclear topic which feels like you cant really get a definitive answer. On one hand, logic and parts of the religion promotes all learning, and other parts such as things related to black magic tells us another ^o) ... opinions?
Oh yes, you are absolutely right.
things like seeking contact with jinns and asking them to help you do something...sihr and other kinds of black magic...that is indeed an area in knowledge we can question whether it can be beneficial or not.
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Peacefully
02-01-2018, 09:51 AM
“And in no way did Sulayman (Solomon) disbelieve but Ash- Shayatin (The all-vicious (ones), i.e., the devils) disbelieved, teaching mankind sorcery“

Quran 2:102

Allah knows best
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Good brother
02-01-2018, 10:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
:sl:

When you look into evolution and carefully study it, you will find that the logic behind it is almost infallible (i say almost!).

HOWEVER, when it comes to the origins of humans. Thats where we, as muslims, draw the line. This is because there are plenty of saheeh ahadeeths (From what i have been told) that talk about the formation of Adam :as: and is origins, so we cannot say that evolution applies to him. On the other hand, there is no mention of the origins of the other living creatures on earth, and that is why we can apply the theory of evolution to other earthly beings without contradicting our Religion. Hope this clears things up a little ...
wa alaikum assalam

Living things were created at the most "appropriate" time for them. That doesn't make bacteria "evolved" to .....to reptiles. There was gradual appearance of organism.
I have no problem with "descent with modification" concept, but I definitely have with the unsubstantiated conjecture of microbe-to-man evolution=neo-darwinism. All supposed evidence for this conjecture make perfect sense in the light of creation. They can merely be consistent with evolutionary theory (which they aren’t-revise the example of marsupials mentioned earlier in this thread!) — not evidence for the theory.
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Ümit
02-01-2018, 11:11 AM
maybe usefull to share with you the analogy that made me see the connection between science (like evolution) and Islam.
As an electrical engineer, I see Islam like a code, a program, software. We have no access to it, because we do not understand the language.
The only thing we have are some instructions how to work with it which is the Quran.

I see the creation as the hardware. you can see it, you can observe it.

together it is an unknown machine that does what is designed for, operated by the software programmed into it.

we can study this unknown machine and look at its motors and other parts, observe how it functions and moves, and investigate it.
by doing this, we can reconstruate some of the software of this machine bit by bit.

usually, this reconstruated software and the actual software should match each other...if the scientists have done their jobs correctly and they did not jump into conclusions.
Of course there will be small differences in detail...because you are trying to reconstruct something unknown...but if you discovered this difference, you can correct this and you have made another step in unraveling the software.
I hope this analogy can be of use for you.
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Aaqib
02-02-2018, 09:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
:) love it when the gems drop like this ;)
I want some gems too my dude.
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MuhammadHamza1
02-03-2018, 01:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
Evolution aside, the topic about knowledge in general, whether good or bad is really mind boggling to me. I am a strong believer that gaining knowledge in general is good, and just like you said, it depends upon the person who learns it and how it affect him or how he uses it. But at the same time, we have things like black magic, where in islam, people are encouraged to not even to go close to it. It is even said that a person who goes to a sooth sayer for fun or laughs wont have his salat accepted for 40 days or something.

So it really is an unclear topic which feels like you cant really get a definitive answer. On one hand, logic and parts of the religion promotes all learning, and other parts such as things related to black magic tells us another ... opinions?
We say to the one who is ignorant to not study things which will lead him away.The knowledgable can.For example,you have a wicked scholor.The ignorant is adviced not to listen to him.Because he will mislead him.But the knowledgable can listen to him,for his own purposes,because he can differentiate between good and evil.
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azc
02-04-2018, 12:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MuhammadHamza1
We say to the one who is ignorant to not study things which will lead him away.The knowledgable can.For example,you have a wicked scholor.The ignorant is adviced not to listen to him.Because he will mislead him.But the knowledgable can listen to him,for his own purposes,because he can differentiate between good and evil.
It's , sometimes, Difficult for a commonman to decide who's an evil scholar...?
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Scimitar
02-05-2018, 11:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaqib
I want some gems too my dude.
Sitting at the feet of scholars is always a good place to find them!
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Ümit
02-06-2018, 10:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
It's , sometimes, Difficult for a commonman to decide who's an evil scholar...?
That is exactly what I am saying. It is not always easy for everyone to determine which scholar is good and which scholar is bad. you cannot look inside the scholars mind. That is why you can not compare listening to a bad scholar with listening to shaytaan.

This Harun Yahya is a perfect example of a bad scholar.
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azc
02-06-2018, 11:03 AM
Generally, I don't adhere to any specific scholar, respect all though
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Ümit
02-06-2018, 01:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
Generally, I don't adhere to any specific scholar, respect all though
So, do you also respect the evil ones?
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ChosenTCO
02-06-2018, 04:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by umie
So, do you also respect the evil ones?
I think what brother @azc was trying to say goes a little bit deeper than that.
Your general approach to this (from what i can understand) is, if the Scholar is unanimously acknowledged as good then we should take his/her opinion or respect, but if not they should not be listened to. What you may be forgetting is that almost every scholar has their own group of haters that do not agree with them, so you will never be able to find a scholar that is 100% agreeable all the time.
While this still is one way we can go about it, i'd prefer to listen to all scholars, take what is good and leave what is bad. I think this is what brother azc was also trying to say. The only difference between what him and i think is the method of knowing which rule to take and which to leave. From what i understood (meaning its my opinion) by talking to him before is that he would rather determine what is right or wrong by determining how many scholars agree to such a ruling. While this is a good way to determine the validity of that ruling, it is not the only way of validation. I personally would also depend on the 2 beautiful gifts that Allah has bestowed upon us if the rulings still don’t seem justifiable. Those gifts are our intellect and sense of moral compass. And if neither are giving the person a strong indication of whats right or wrong, then the person has no option but to resort to the general consensus of the scholars

In the end, the situation is not black and white like we'd like it to be, rather there is much grey in the middle than the black and white.imsad
Still though ... this shouldnt be a reason for us to divide or lose respect for one another. :D
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azc
02-06-2018, 04:02 PM
@umie :

I don't disrespect though but stay away from them.

I respect the knowledge of Quran and hadith they've. If they are indifferent of their duty and onus as a scholar is their fault, for which they're accountable on judgement day.

Allah swt has given us the reason to differentiate the truth and false ;but I don't believe in character assassination of common Muslims let alone scholars
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Ümit
02-06-2018, 08:27 PM
Great post TCO!!!
@azc
İ am sorry. You are right. The mistake İ have been making is that that which is obviously wrong in my eyes...does not have to be wrong to someone else. Like TCO said...no scholar is 100% good or bad.

İ have been accusing AZC for being too black and white...that there were a lot of graytones in between...
But İ was making the same mistake myself.
İ am sorry.
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Scimitar
02-10-2018, 12:17 AM
In this video, Brother Imran Hussein gives a talk at High Wycombe Islamic Center titled Certainty in the Age of Doubt. Split into three parts, this Talk breaks down into digestible chunks, the talk which many have benefited from, and sought to further their pursuit of knowledge based on the Qur'an.

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Zzz_
02-10-2018, 06:42 PM
Not sure if i posted this before,

These Muslim scholars wrote about evolution 900 years before Darwin was born

http://stepfeed.com/10-more-muslims-...-uk-great-1973
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