David Berlinski—Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Thought provoking discussion.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Like to share. A wide ranging discussion regarding the rise and fall of new atheism.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Like to share.

The End Of Atheism

If you are over the age of 40, perhaps a bit older, you have lived long enough to see a great fad get going, peak and then fade away completely. Lots of fads run their course in a few months, obviously, but social movements tend to build slowly and then stick around for a while, before disappearing down the memory hole. One of those fads is atheism, which had a good run in the 80’s and 90’s. It started to peter out in the 90’s, had a brief revival in the aughts, but now seems to be headed to oblivion.

The so-called “new atheists” are not ready to throw in the towel on their reason to exist, as it were, but that’s to be expected. Harris and Dennett moved all their chips into the middle of the table with the atheism stuff. It got them the attention they desired, so as a gambler will wear a diamond pinky ring to recall his one big score, these guys still proudly wear their atheism. All of them have moved onto other things, but they will expound upon their hatred of religion if the crowd demands it.

Of course, anytime the word “new” gets attached to something old, it means that old thing is now dead. It also means that old thing had some serious internal defect that eventually killed it. The “new right” made an appearance when it was clear Conservative Inc. was just a ruthless money racket. The previous iteration of “new right” appeared in the 70’s when everyone agreed the old right was dead. The reason “new atheism” got going is everyone agreed that regular old atheism was creepy and weird.

The central defect of atheism, old and new, is it is an entirely negative western identity and entirely dependent on Christianity. Specifically, it requires people of some status to defend Christianity and the Christian belief in the super natural. Atheism has always been the oxpecker of mass movements. Everything about it relies on its host both tolerating it and thriving on its own. It’s why atheism has had its spasms of success when Christianity in America has had a revival, as in the 80’s and the 2000’s.

Atheists will deny this, of course. They will argue, as Dennett often does, that the steep decline of Christianity is proof their arguments were superior. The reason they no longer talk about their thing is they won and their enemy is dead. The fact that there are plenty of Muslims and crackpot feminist airheads around spouting magical oogily-boogily never seems to get their attention for some reason. The only guy to venture into this area was Dawkins, but the Prog quickly reminded him who pays his bills.

That’s always been the tell with atheism. Belief in something as insane as male privilege or implicit whiteness should get their attention. After all, these are not just beliefs in the supernatural, they are primitive beliefs in the supernatural. Men of the classical period had more plausible and complex beliefs than people like Amy Harmon. She is a click away from demanding human sacrifice. Yet, the new atheists were never much interest in those magical beliefs. They were too busy hounding the last Christians.

That’s another tell. Atheism has always been a popular pose on the Left, because it was a useful signal. The bad whites loved their boom sticks and sky gods. The good whites rejected all those crazy beliefs. It’s why atheists tended to focus on the mainstream of Christianity, like Catholics and mainline Protestant churches. Mormons were always an easy target. They avoided the Jews and black Baptists. Sure, once in while a zinger against the tribe would be tossed in, but the enemy was always white Christians.

The decline on atheism is a good example of the perils of negative identity. When you define yourself as being in opposition to someone or something, you inevitably become a slave to it. Your very existence depends on it. As the main Christian churches collapse in scandal and bizarre attempts to move Left, the enemies for atheists to attack are getting more difficult to find. Attacking Christians is like beating up a puppy. Only the severely mentally disturbed think Christians have any power today.

The other thing working against atheism is it has been mostly male. That’s an interesting thing, given that the American Atheists was created by a woman in the 60’s. Then again, Madalyn Murray O’Hair was just a cat’s paw for the usual suspects. Her role was to be the point the spear in the war to decouple Christianity from American civic and cultural life. Since then, atheism has been a male thing. Given the declining status of males on the Left, particularly white males, it is no surprise that atheism is dying.

Given the state of affairs in the West and the crippling decline in the Christian churches, it is hard to see atheism having another revival. Christianity appears to morphing into a private, bespoke thing in order to survive outside the Progressive orthodoxy. That makes it a worthless enemy for atheists. You can never know, of course, but it looks like public Christianity is done for. That means atheism is done for as well, unless it moves onto Judaism or Progressivism and that will never be allowed.

http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=16520

[greenhill]

Wow, really? It kind of makes sense but for atheism to specifically come about as a reaction against Christianity is kind of staggering, no?


:peace:

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[Zafran]

The fact that there are plenty of Muslims and crackpot feminist airheads around spouting magical oogily-boogily never seems to get their attention for some reason. The only guy to venture into this area was Dawkins, but the Prog quickly reminded him who pays his bills.

sounds like a whiny Christian who hates Islam, feminist and atheists. He also seems to only talk about "new atheists" but forgets that atheists have plenty of different philosophies and have been destroying western Christendom since modernity because Christians failed to keep them at bay.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Wow, really? It kind of makes sense but for atheism to specifically come about as a reaction against Christianity is kind of staggering, no?


:peace:

Its been around since ancient times, Plato didnt approve of them.

Currently and in the recent past though, yes its primary animus has been towards Christianity.

Edit - Vox makes the case against freedom of speech. He argues that the one of its purposes of freedom of speech was to undermine the Christian basis of (western) society.

Freedom of speech is not a right



From an Islamic perspective.

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They understand.

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[Altaqwa]

^^ Kind of an example of why I prefer Plato entirely over Aristotle. Plato understood that this material world was a fragment of what there is, whereas Aristotle (and this acquaintances) put themselves in a similar dogmatic mentality of 'material is all' that serves in the current age as a vehicle for Paganism and the ancient mystery religions to resurface (via Darwinism, Atheism, the Occult and New Age all seeping into mainstream worldviews) - it's all just a prepping for one world government. Atheists are what are termed "useful idiots", often synonymous with the "modern political Left". Destroy everything of Western and Eastern culture, create chaos and then offer a solution as something brave, inspiring, "progressive" and "universal"

[سيف الله]

Salaam

sounds like a whiny Christian who hates Islam, feminist and atheists. He also seems to only talk about "new atheists" but forgets that atheists have plenty of different philosophies and have been destroying western Christendom since modernity because Christians failed to keep them at bay.

Yes he should go easy on casting stones, mind you Christians have borne the brunt of the attack by the modernists, now that its failing they are turning their attention on to us.

I didnt expect this from John Locke (one of the founders of liberalism).

Some book recommendations. there quite controversial (reviews are mixed), but worth a read for a different point of view.

A basic introduction to modern atheism.

Blurb

Atheism is one of the most important movements in modern Western culture. For the last two hundred years, it seemed to be on the verge of eliminating religion as an outmoded and dangerous superstition. Recent years, however, have witnessed the decline of disbelief and a rise in religious/spiritual devotion throughout the world. In this highly readable book, the distinguished historian and theologian, Alister McGrath examines what went wrong with the atheist dream and explains why religion and faith are destined to play a central role in the twenty-first century.

A former atheist who is now one of Christianity's foremost scholars, McGrath traces the history of atheism from its emergence in eighteenth-century Europe as a revolutionary worldview that offered liberation from the rigidity of traditional Christianity and the oppression of tyrannical monarchs, to its golden age in the first half of the twentieth century.

Blending thoughtful, authoritative historical analysis with incisive portraits of such leading and influential atheists as Sigmund Freud, Marx and Richard Dawkins, McGrath exposes the flaws at the heart of atheism and argues that the renewal of faith is a natural, inevitable and necessary response to its failures.

Blurb

On one side of the argument is a collection of godless academics with doctorates from the finest universities in England, France, and the United States. On the other is Irrational Atheist author Vox Day, armed with nothing more than historical and statistical facts. Presenting a compelling argument (but not for the side one might expect), Day strips away the pseudo-scientific pretentions of New Atheism with his intelligent application of logic, history, military science, political economy, and well-documented research. The arguments of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, and Michel Onfray are all methodically exposed and discredited as Day provides extensive evidence proving, among other things, that:

More than 93 percent of all the wars in human history had no relation to religion
The Spanish Inquisition had no jurisdiction over professing Jews, Muslims, or atheists, and executed fewer people on an annual basis than the state of Texas
Atheists are 3.84 times more likely to be imprisoned than Christians
“Red” state crime is primarily in “blue” counties
Sexually abused girls are 55 times more likely to commit suicide than girls raised Catholic

In the twentieth century, atheistic regimes killed three times more people in peacetime than those killed in all the wars and individual crimes combined. The Irrational Atheist provides the rational thinker with empirical proof that atheism’s claims against religion are unfounded in logic, fact, and science.

(Ive posted this a while back but Ill repost it here ) a great book on the origins of secularism.

Blurb

A dazzling examination of the politics of religion and the religion of politics by one of Europes greatest modern historians.

From the French Revolution to the first World War, the philosophes of the Enlightenment to the psuedo-relgious 'high priests' of Marxism, never before has the complicated interaction between the Church and the modern politcal state been so lucidly described.

As Michael Burleigh shows through characters as diverse as Charles Fourier, a proto Communist who denounced capitalism and looked forward to a day when the ocenas would be filled with lemonade, to Voltaire and his fervent desire to stamp out fantatcism, the champions of change have often displayed a distinctly relgious zeal in their quest, harnessing mankinds spirtual longing to bolster their own vision of secular society. the result has been the emergence of a new and often terrifying secularism which has replaced the idols of religion with the idols of nationalism.

[chalks75]

Atheism is nothing more than the rejection of theism.

It is a mistake to conflate it with anything else .

I’m not convinced that gods are real, therefore I am atheist.

Atheism in not a claim , it is the rejection of a claim ( the claim being some god exists)

[Ahmed.]

Atheism is nothing more than the rejection of theism.

It is a mistake to conflate it with anything else .

I’m not convinced that gods are real, therefore I am atheist.

Atheism in not a claim , it is the rejection of a claim ( the claim being some god exists)

It's very illogical and unscientific to believe this intelligently designed universe could have come about by chance; you have been lied to and duped by the evolutionists; see https://www.evolutiondeceit.com/

[Physicist]

It's very illogical and unscientific to believe this intelligently designed universe could have come about by chance; you have been lied to and duped by the evolutionists; see https://www.evolutiondeceit.com/

That is rather an example of misleading conflation of evolutionism and atheism.

Theory of evolution is perfectly compatible with Islam and argument lays rather in details about mechanics of Creation.

...

[Ahmed.]

That is rather an example of misleading conflation of evolutionism and atheism.

Theory of evolution is perfectly compatible with Islam and argument lays rather in details about mechanics of Creation.

...

I will quote my friend Abdurrahman who couldn't have said it any better:

Anyone who believes God created life, then there isn't even a reason to try set out to prove life came about by step by step micro or macro evolution, as God could have created all creatures in their full forms. It's only those who wish to deny God that attempts to designate life to a process of cause and effect so people can think life or universe doesn't need God. This is another reason why Muslims should naturally find evolution theory suspect.

[chalks75]

It's very illogical and unscientific to believe this intelligently designed universe could have come about by chance; you have been lied to and duped by the evolutionists; see https://www.evolutiondeceit.com/

My atheism is not dependent on either theory.

...

['Abdullah]

No matter what moral beliefs we may have, all people have felt guilt in their life. Every person including the atheist has felt that they have done wrong in their life and may have felt guilt or remorse or depression as a result.
The question however is: How do you as an atheist deal with guilt and sin in their life? What do you do to remove guilt or sin in your hearts?

It is a known fact that atheists are more likely to commit suicide than theists. Depression, anxiety and lack of happiness are common issues with atheists. This is due to the fact that the atheist belief system does not adequately account for purpose or meaning of life. Hence in the perception of the atheist life is not only temporary but it lacks no definitive meaning.

God created us to glorify Him. Glorifying God means that we acknowledge His existence and He is the object of our faith and worship. It also means that we live in order to please and serve our Creator.
Without God, the issue of guilt and sin cannot be properly or adequately dealt with.

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It is debatable. You need to first know what atheists claim using the theory of evolution. Human beings are definitely not the evolution stage of Apes. Quran is very clear on this. I have seen some Muslims who like to use some verses from Quran to prove the theory of evolution is compatible with Islam but I don't agree with them. Theory of evolution is a theory only, scientists have never found any fossils showing the intermediate stages of evolution from apes to humans. We don't need to prove Quran with every theory out there in the science world. Theories are theories and these change, Quran does not change and I is fully compatible with ESTABLISHED scientific facts but it may not be compatible with theories.

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It is debatable. You need to first know what atheists claim using the theory of evolution. Human beings are definitely not the evolution stage of Apes. Quran is very clear on this. I have seen some Muslims who like to use some verses from Quran to prove the theory of evolution is compatible with Islam but I don't agree with them. Theory of evolution is a theory only, scientists have never found any fossils showing the intermediate stages of evolution from apes to humans. We don't need to prove Quran with every theory out there in the science world. Theories are theories and these change, Quran does not change and I is fully compatible with ESTABLISHED scientific facts but it may not be compatible with theories.

- - - Updated - - -

It is debatable. You need to first know what atheists claim using the theory of evolution. Human beings are definitely not the evolution stage of Apes. Quran is very clear on this. I have seen some Muslims who like to use some verses from Quran to prove the theory of evolution is compatible with Islam but I don't agree with them. Theory of evolution is a theory only, scientists have never found any fossils showing the intermediate stages of evolution from apes to humans. We don't need to prove Quran with every theory out there in the science world. Theories are theories and these change, Quran does not change and I is fully compatible with ESTABLISHED scientific facts but it may not be compatible with theories.

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I clearly need to know how to edit my posts. Please ignore the three updates shown on post #14 these were meant to be response to some other post but I am not sure how these all end up in here.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

^^ Kind of an example of why I prefer Plato entirely over Aristotle. Plato understood that this material world was a fragment of what there is, whereas Aristotle (and this acquaintances) put themselves in a similar dogmatic mentality of 'material is all' that serves in the current age as a vehicle for Paganism and the ancient mystery religions to resurface (via Darwinism, Atheism, the Occult and New Age all seeping into mainstream worldviews) - it's all just a prepping for one world government. Atheists are what are termed "useful idiots", often synonymous with the "modern political Left". Destroy everything of Western and Eastern culture, create chaos and then offer a solution as something brave, inspiring, "progressive" and "universal"

I have to apologise about Platos qoute, its been misattributed.

Misattributed to Plato in Laws by Conservapedia. Actual source: William Fleming, as quoted in Prose Quotations from Socrates to Macaulay by Samuel Austin Allibone, 1816–1889.

Doesn't detract from the power of the qoute.

To make up for my faux pas Ill recommend another book that gives far darker insights into the nature of atheism.

Some reviews.

Aquinas

A brilliant analysis of key 19th century thinkers who paved the way for aggressive neo-atheism

De Lubac's anlaysis of Feuerbach, Nietzsche, Comte and Marx illusrates that "where there is no God, there is no Man either" and that postitivism, marxism and variant philosophies, in seeking to model a new man, agressively independent of God, result in a nihilistic tyranny of man over man.

Its De Lubac's sympathetic handling of these lunatic ideas and their exponents, Nietzsche,in particular (who de Lubac sees as haunted by Christ), which gives the book balance. If you wish to understand why we are living in an age where atheism has become more militant and aggressve, then De Lubac's book make you realise that what we are experiencing now is the culmination of many centuries of alienation of western thought from the Logos, who unites all things in himself. His treatment of Dostoevsky (a counterbalance to the other thinkers) is particularly illuminating.

Atheism is nothing more than the rejection of theism.

It is a mistake to conflate it with anything else .

I’m not convinced that gods are real, therefore I am atheist.

Atheism in not a claim , it is the rejection of a claim ( the claim being some god exists)

An internet athiest being evasive, slippery and shifting goals posts, colour me shocked.

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Too bad for you nobodys buying.

[chalks75]

No matter what moral beliefs we may have, all people have felt guilt in their life. Every person including the atheist has felt that they have done wrong in their life and may have felt guilt or remorse or depression as a result.
The question however is: How do you as an atheist deal with guilt and sin in their life? What do you do to remove guilt or sin in your hearts?

It is a known fact that atheists are more likely to commit suicide than theists. Depression, anxiety and lack of happiness are common issues with atheists. This is due to the fact that the atheist belief system does not adequately account for purpose or meaning of life. Hence in the perception of the atheist life is not only temporary but it lacks no definitive meaning.

God created us to glorify Him. Glorifying God means that we acknowledge His existence and He is the object of our faith and worship. It also means that we live in order to please and serve our Creator.
Without God, the issue of guilt and sin cannot be properly or adequately dealt with.

- - - Updated - - -

It is debatable. You need to first know what atheists claim using the theory of evolution. Human beings are definitely not the evolution stage of Apes. Quran is very clear on this. I have seen some Muslims who like to use some verses from Quran to prove the theory of evolution is compatible with Islam but I don't agree with them. Theory of evolution is a theory only, scientists have never found any fossils showing the intermediate stages of evolution from apes to humans. We don't need to prove Quran with every theory out there in the science world. Theories are theories and these change, Quran does not change and I is fully compatible with ESTABLISHED scientific facts but it may not be compatible with theories.

- - - Updated - - -


It is debatable. You need to first know what atheists claim using the theory of evolution. Human beings are definitely not the evolution stage of Apes. Quran is very clear on this. I have seen some Muslims who like to use some verses from Quran to prove the theory of evolution is compatible with Islam but I don't agree with them. Theory of evolution is a theory only, scientists have never found any fossils showing the intermediate stages of evolution from apes to humans. We don't need to prove Quran with every theory out there in the science world. Theories are theories and these change, Quran does not change and I is fully compatible with ESTABLISHED scientific facts but it may not be compatible with theories.

- - - Updated - - -

It is debatable. You need to first know what atheists claim using the theory of evolution. Human beings are definitely not the evolution stage of Apes. Quran is very clear on this. I have seen some Muslims who like to use some verses from Quran to prove the theory of evolution is compatible with Islam but I don't agree with them. Theory of evolution is a theory only, scientists have never found any fossils showing the intermediate stages of evolution from apes to humans. We don't need to prove Quran with every theory out there in the science world. Theories are theories and these change, Quran does not change and I is fully compatible with ESTABLISHED scientific facts but it may not be compatible with theories.

- - - Updated - - -

I clearly need to know how to edit my posts. Please ignore the three updates shown on post #14 these were meant to be response to some other post but I am not sure how these all end up in here.

First of all , you should not conflate atheism with evolution,
Even if I did not accept evolution I’d still be an atheist .

How do I deal with sin , there is no such thing as sin , sin is a religious concept .

There is immoral behaviour , I recognise that if my actions or words hurt or offend someone , then it is my duty as a humanist to make amends , so I will apologise to the person I hurt and ask for forgiveness.

I do not believe there is a celestial judge that I will answer to.

['Abdullah]

Human being normally want to do things which benefit them. If we remove the concept of hell and paradise, then you can never prove to me that stealing for example is bad. You may say that there are laws and I may get caught and get punished. What if I am the most power person and law enforcement agencies work for me? You may say that it hurts the society and I should not do it. But it benefits me and why should I care about others if it benefits me?

You can never convince anyone until the person who are trying to convince have belief in hereafter and knows this life is test and we have to answer what we did in this life to a higher being.

[chalks75]

Human being normally want to do things which benefit them. If we remove the concept of hell and paradise, then you can never prove to me that stealing for example is bad. You may say that there are laws and I may get caught and get punished. What if I am the most power person and law enforcement agencies work for me? You may say that it hurts the society and I should not do it. But it benefits me and why should I care about others if it benefits me?

You can never convince anyone until the person who are trying to convince have belief in hereafter and knows this life is test and we have to answer what we did in this life to a higher being.

I have to say , what you are saying concerns me deeply.

In essence what you are saying is that
If it were conclusively proven tomorrow that paradise or hell do not exist .... then you would have no problems going around robbing people or worse?
If religion is the only thing stopping you from being immoral then it’s best you are religious
Don’t you care about other people ?

There are billions of people that believe in judgement in the afterlife , it does not stop them from being immoral.
Being religious , believing in god , or paradise or hell is no guarantee of morality.

Being atheist is no guarantee of morality either .

['Abdullah]

True believers always try to follow Divine guidance which tells us what is right and what wrong. For example, abortion is now considered as right in many western countries but Islam teaches that abortion is wrong with some exception such as if mother’s health is in danger. Islam also says drinking alcohol is prohibited, does every Muslim stay away from drinking alcohol? No really. what I am trying to say is that there are many Muslims in the world and not everyone follows what Islam teaches. For true practicing Muslims, the guidance for right and wrong is Quran and the teachings of prophet Muhammad PBUH. These teaching do not change with time.
On the other hand, if you don’t have any Divine guidance then your concept of right and wrong will be pretty much dependable on the laws which society may have imposed on you or on your cultural belief system or on your own interpretations. We all know man made law keep changing and it always is ambiguous so rich in society can hire lawyers to benefit the rich for any laws they make. We also know that often what we believe to be right in a particular culture, is not necessarily considered right in another culture. Our own life time is too small to learn and develops our own understanding of what is good and what is bad. As I said in my previous post that most human being do anything to benefit themselves. If I am kind to others, it is because I am concerned with my life hereafter and I want to make sure I don’t earn the anger of my Lord. If you work, you work to get paid. If you are so powerful that no one can punish you then you will do all bad things which our politicians are known for. It is just that fact.

Now we all also also have certain desires built in us. We all want to live longer, we all want big houses or property, we all want happiness, and we all want justice. These wants also prove that there is paradise in which our desires will be fulfilled. Since this life is a test to determine who does well to go to paradise; it is impossible to get true happiness, true justice, and eternal life in this world.

I really appreciate all the good questions from you and hope my answers help you. One advise I do want to give you is that be sincere to yourself and even if you don’t believe in God, pray in your heart with sincerity and ask God to guide you to truth if He exists. This is because guidance comes from God. He is one who can change the condition of your heart and help you to find the truth.

All the best. It time for me to go to bed and I will definitely check your posts tomorrow and answers any furthers questions you may have.

Peace!

[chalks75]

True believers always try to follow Divine guidance which tells us what is right and what wrong. For example, abortion is now considered as right in many western countries but Islam teaches that abortion is wrong with some exception such as if mother’s health is in danger. Islam also says drinking alcohol is prohibited, does every Muslim stay away from drinking alcohol? No really. what I am trying to say is that there are many Muslims in the world and not everyone follows what Islam teaches. For true practicing Muslims, the guidance for right and wrong is Quran and the teachings of prophet Muhammad PBUH. These teaching do not change with time.
On the other hand, if you don’t have any Divine guidance then your concept of right and wrong will be pretty much dependable on the laws which society may have imposed on you or on your cultural belief system or on your own interpretations. We all know man made law keep changing and it always is ambiguous so rich in society can hire lawyers to benefit the rich for any laws they make. We also know that often what we believe to be right in a particular culture, is not necessarily considered right in another culture. Our own life time is too small to learn and develops our own understanding of what is good and what is bad. As I said in my previous post that most human being do anything to benefit themselves. If I am kind to others, it is because I am concerned with my life hereafter and I want to make sure I don’t earn the anger of my Lord. If you work, you work to get paid. If you are so powerful that no one can punish you then you will do all bad things which our politicians are known for. It is just that fact.

Now we all also also have certain desires built in us. We all want to live longer, we all want big houses or property, we all want happiness, and we all want justice. These wants also prove that there is paradise in which our desires will be fulfilled. Since this life is a test to determine who does well to go to paradise; it is impossible to get true happiness, true justice, and eternal life in this world.

I really appreciate all the good questions from you and hope my answers help you. One advise I do want to give you is that be sincere to yourself and even if you don’t believe in God, pray in your heart with sincerity and ask God to guide you to truth if He exists. This is because guidance comes from God. He is one who can change the condition of your heart and help you to find the truth.

All the best. It time for me to go to bed and I will definitely check your posts tomorrow and answers any furthers questions you may have.

Peace!

“ true believers “
Who decides who is a true believer and who is not ?

My morality is based on rational thought , I’m s secular humanist , I would imagine we share much of the same morality
I think it’s wrong to steal , cheat, lie, murder, etc
I think it’s wrong because I recognise the harm it’s does to other people , and to my own self esteem.

Do you think it’s wrong because it has been decreed by a god ?

What if that god had said those things were not wrong ... would you then rob, cheat , murder ?
Like it or not , you decide what is moral and what is not .

['Abdullah]

“ true believers “
Who decides who is a true believer and who is not ?

This is what Quran defines. Why Quran, because that is the living miracle you and I can witness. Every Prophet came with some miracles which were proof that they are messengers sent from God. Prophet Muhammad PBUH came with several miracles and the greatest of that is Quran because it is living miracle. I have discussed this in one of my posts in more details, which is unfortunately still pending administrators review. In summary what it says that Quran is preserved which is a true miracle within itself. There are many established scientific facts which are stated in Quran 1400 years ago and that is only possible if this book is from God almighty.

How do you know Quran is preserved? Let's not go into history of how Quran was written down because I can prove that without going into lengthy debate on that. Quran has been memorized by thousands and millions in every generation. Even today there are more than million people who have memorized Quran letter by letter. Majority of them are those whose first language is not even Arabic (another miracle). Now if for some reason all religious books are burnt and nothing survives, the only book which can be brought back word by word is Quran because so many memorizers of Quran. This also makes it impossible to make any change in the Quran.

My morality is based on rational thought , I’m s secular humanist , I would imagine we share much of the same morality
I think it’s wrong to steal , cheat, lie, murder, etc
I think it’s wrong because I recognise the harm it’s does to other people , and to my own self esteem.

Do you think it’s wrong because it has been decreed by a god ?

What if that god had said those things were not wrong ... would you then rob, cheat , murder ?
Like it or not , you decide what is moral and what is not

You mentioned self esteem and you do good based on your conscious. I mentioned this in one of my previous posts that your conscience is a proof that God exists. God has built in a safety system within us to differentiate between right and wrong. This raises two important questions.
1. Do you always listen to your conscience?
2. There are something which comes very naturally to human beings like love for mother, doing good and refrain from bad things. Islam is also very natural, that's why it attracts to those who are sincerely looking for truth. By the way, believe in God is also natural. Islam tells us that Allah created all souls at one time before the creation of our human bodies. He asked all souls who is your LORD and all souls said Allah is our LORD. Do I and you remember this? I don't, and I am sure you don't either. Why because this life is a test and if everyone remembers that promise then everyone will be a believer. Do you and I remember everything in the womb of our mothers? I don't but I know we were there. This is why when your life is in extreme danger (let's say you have big earth quake) even atheists call out for God to save them. It is a fact and you can deny it if you like but that does not change the fact.

[Ahmed.]

My atheism is not dependent on either theory.

...

Oops sorry I liked your post by mistake: Don't want people to get wrong impression now that I'm supporting athiesm:).

If it is not ev3n based on the evolution theory then this is even more foolhardy my friend, because it's one thing to be fooled and duped by lying scientists and another to deny the basic logic and common sense of our intellect that tells us this magnificent creation had to have a Creator. So what excuse will you have before God if He asks you why you d3nied Him?

[chalks75]

Oops sorry I liked your post by mistake: Don't want people to get wrong impression now that I'm supporting athiesm:).

If it is not ev3n based on the evolution theory then this is even more foolhardy my friend, because it's one thing to be fooled and duped by lying scientists and another to deny the basic logic and common sense of our intellect that tells us this magnificent creation had to have a Creator. So what excuse will you have before God if He asks you why you d3nied Him?

I was an atheist before I heard of the theory of evolution , or the Big Bang.

I’m an atheist because when people first started telling me about there being a god ,I didn’t believe them , I didn’t believe the stories surrounding the god, and as I got older I realised cultures all over the world , for the entire recorded history of mankind , people have been making up these kinds of stories.
There have always been people convinced these stories are true.

What’s the difference between you being convinced your god is real
&
An ancient Grecian being convinced Zeus is real
Or
A Hindu being convinced Vishnu is real
Or a Christian being convinced Jesus was god.

Being convinced something is true , does not make it true.
Considering mans propensity for inventing gods and religions , I would be very dubious of believing any ...or claiming that you know it’s true for a fact

[chalks75]

I was an atheist before I heard of the theory of evolution , or the Big Bang.

I’m an atheist because when people first started telling me about there being a god ,I didn’t believe them , I didn’t believe the stories surrounding the god, and as I got older I realised cultures all over the world , for the entire recorded history of mankind , people have been making up these kinds of stories.
There have always been people convinced these stories are true.

What’s the difference between you being convinced your god is real
&
An ancient Grecian being convinced Zeus is real
Or
A Hindu being convinced Vishnu is real
Or a Christian being convinced Jesus was god.

Being convinced something is true , does not make it true.
Considering mans propensity for inventing gods and religions , I would be very dubious of believing any ...or claiming that you know it’s true for a fact

( you may not support atheism , but I hope at least you understand it a little more)[emoji3]

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Good talk, like to share

Blurb

Are we seeing the end of the new atheism associated with the likes of Richard Dawkins? If so, what will that mean for our conception of ourselves, and could it lead to progress in science and human knowledge.

Rebellious scientist Rupert Sheldrake has been a thorn in the side of the materialist scientific worldview for decades and has seen a shift over the last few years.

[chalks75]

Salaam

Good talk, like to share

Blurb

Are we seeing the end of the new atheism associated with the likes of Richard Dawkins? If so, what will that mean for our conception of ourselves, and could it lead to progress in science and human knowledge.

Rebellious scientist Rupert Sheldrake has been a thorn in the side of the materialist scientific worldview for decades, and has seen a shift over the last few years.

Atheism is the second fastest growing demographic in America and Europe , after Islam ... which is good for us , but bad for you .

[Zafran]

Atheism is the second fastest growing demographic in America and Europe , after Islam ... which is good for us , but bad for you .

Christianity and Islam are rising faster then any other religion (universally) - Atheism universally is going to have a smaller share much smaller

Which religions are growing, and where?
Advertisement

The short answer is religion is on the wane in western Europe and North America, and it’s growing everywhere else.

The median age of the global population is 28. Two religions have a median age below that: Muslims (23) and Hindus (26). Other main religions have an older median age: Christians, 30; Buddhists, 34 and Jews, 36. The religiously unaffiliated come in at 34.

Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world – more than twice as fast as the overall global population. Between 2015 and 2060, the world’s inhabitants are expected to increase by 32%, but the Muslim population is forecast to grow by 70%. And even though Christians will also outgrow the general population over that period, with an increase of 34% forecast mainly thanks to population growth in sub-Saharan Africa, Christianity is likely to lose its top spot in the world religion league table to Islam by the middle of this century.

Hindus are set to grow by 27%, and Jews by 15% mainly because of the high birth rate among the ultra-Orthodox. The religiously unaffiliated will see a 3% increase. But proportionately, these religious groupings will be smaller than now because their growth is lower than the increase in the overall global population. And Buddhists are forecast to see a 7% drop in their numbers.

ps - the religiously unaffiliated doesn't mean atheists only.
source
https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...t-happens-next

[keiv]

Atheism is the second fastest growing demographic in America and Europe , after Islam ... which is good for us , but bad for you .

How so?

['Abdullah]

Atheism is the second fastest growing demographic in America and Europe , after Islam ... which is good for us , but bad for you .

I have not looked into statistics for your claim but you may be right. If you are then it is because most people in West are born Christians and when they grow up, they start seeing many contradictions in Bible. As a result many are leaving Christianity and becoming agnostic or atheist.

Western media portraits islam as evil and I know for a fact that if anyone is looking for the truth, they look into Islam as the last resort. This is why currently we may have more atheists in the West but Islam will eventually be the largest religion. It is not because I am wish that to be, it is because Islam is simple and very close to human nature. If despite all hate, Islam is the fastest growing religion then one should take it seriously.

[Saira Khan]

My morality is based on rational thought , I’m s secular humanist , I would imagine we share much of the same morality
I think it’s wrong to steal , cheat, lie, murder, etc
I think it’s wrong because I recognise the harm it’s does to other people , and to my own self esteem.

Do you think it’s wrong because it has been decreed by a god ?

What if that god had said those things were not wrong ... would you then rob, cheat , murder ?
Like it or not , you decide what is moral and what is not .

So will you please define for us the terms "good" and "bad"? Using your rationality. How will you separate "instincts" from "rationality? And of course please do tell us what is morality? is it something absolute or is it relative as well?

[chalks75]

So will you please define for us the terms "good" and "bad"? Using your rationality. How will you separate "instincts" from "rationality? And of course please do tell us what is morality? is it something absolute or is it relative as well?

Good are those things that are beneficial to groups or individuals or the whole
Bad are things that are detrimental to groups or individuals, or the whole.
The balancing act is to be the tide that raises the most boats.

Morality is the recognition that your actions have consequences that affect other people.
And the responsibility to do as little harm and as much good as possible.

There is a notable book by author Sam Harris about the question of morality ,
He would say there is objective morality , if we can agree the human well-being is a common goal we can share.
If we accept this , then we can make objective moral decisions.

In my own opinion , I do not think there is objective morality , we decide what is moral and what is not, not only as individuals but as groups , and cultures.

For example
Some countries , cultures, groups think that the death penalty is morally acceptable , others do not.

There are things that we tend to agree are immoral , lying , stealing , murder for example .... I’m not sure about you , but I don’t need to be told murdering people is wrong.

If all religions and gods were somehow proved wrong tomorrow .... would you go around murdering people ?

I’m sure you would agree you do not need to believe a god is real to behave morally.

[chalks75]

I have not looked into statistics for your claim but you may be right. If you are then it is because most people in West are born Christians and when they grow up, they start seeing many contradictions in Bible. As a result many are leaving Christianity and becoming agnostic or atheist.

Western media portraits islam as evil and I know for a fact that if anyone is looking for the truth, they look into Islam as the last resort. This is why currently we may have more atheists in the West but Islam will eventually be the largest religion. It is not because I am wish that to be, it is because Islam is simple and very close to human nature. If despite all hate, Islam is the fastest growing religion then one should take it seriously.

How many people believe something has no bearing on its truth.
Islam is a tiny fraction of the people that hold religious beliefs.

What do you think happens when a religion gains in popularity and gets a large influx of converts ?
It dilutes the number of true believers , it starts to fragment , it creates tensions within the religion as people start turning it to their own ends.
You only have to look at how other religions developed to see this.
If you look at Christianity now , that is how Islam will end up, just give it another 3-4 hundred years.

Islam isn’t evil , Islam is just a collection of claims and ideas.
What people do based on these claims or ideas could be called immoral, or evil.
You may say that they are not following the doctrine correctly , it does not make the action any less evil.

[chalks75]

How so?

How many people believe something has no bearing on its truth.
Islam is a tiny fraction of the people that hold religious beliefs.

What do you think happens when a religion gains in popularity and gets a large influx of converts ?
It dilutes the number of true believers , it starts to fragment , it creates tensions within the religion as people start turning it to their own ends.
You only have to look at how other religions developed to see this.
If you look at Christianity now , that is how Islam will end up, just give it another 3-4 hundred years.

[chalks75]

Christianity and Islam are rising faster then any other religion (universally) - Atheism universally is going to have a smaller share much smaller



ps - the religiously unaffiliated doesn't mean atheists only.
source
https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...t-happens-next

I agree that non affiliated does not mean atheist.
I did acknowledge that Islam is the fastest growing demographic.
You are right , non affiliated , does not mean atheist.
But the trend is clear , especially in western Europe and North America.

If you care about Islam , you should not hope for it to become really popular , it will attract converts that are not true believers.
It will dilute the number of true believers , you will end up with Islam lite.

['Abdullah]

How many people believe something has no bearing on its truth.
Islam is a tiny fraction of the people that hold religious beliefs.

What do you think happens when a religion gains in popularity and gets a large influx of converts ?
It dilutes the number of true believers , it starts to fragment , it creates tensions within the religion as people start turning it to their own ends.
You only have to look at how other religions developed to see this.
If you look at Christianity now , that is how Islam will end up, just give it another 3-4 hundred years.

Islam isn’t evil , Islam is just a collection of claims and ideas.
What people do based on these claims or ideas could be called immoral, or evil.
You may say that they are not following the doctrine correctly , it does not make the action any less evil.

You are right that once a religion attracts more people then true believers do get diluted but you can’t compare this to Christianity. Christianity has a very fundamental problem. They have mixed up lot of things with Divine message and has corrupted the message so much that it is clear to any sincere person that Bible has been changed just by looking at so many contradictions.

Quran is preserved by Allah Himself because it is the final message for entire humanity until day of judgement. Muhammad PBUH is the last messenger and no guidance is going to come after Quran. As long as we have true source for guidance, we can always turn to it to find the right path. This is not the case with Christianity.

Muslims believe that one day all people will become Muslims ( after Jesus will come back to fight the anti-Christ) and Islam will be the only religion. After Jesus PBUH’s death, people will again start following Satan and a day will come when there will be not a single believer on earth. That’s when trumpet will be blown and everyone will die to be raised again for the Day of Judgement.

Muslims don’t care about number game. If you think that we are spending our time and energy to convert you to Islam just to increase Muslims in the world then you are mistaken. What benefit I would gain if you become Muslim? Nothing I can gain in this world if you accept Islam.

Since no prophet is going to come after prophet Muhammad PBUH, it is duty of every Muslim to share the message with every non Muslim to save them and ourselves from the hell fire. This life is temporary and is a test. How we do in this test, determines our fate on the day of judgement. That’s the only reason we are spending our time and energy is debating with you and other non Muslims. We care about you and want to share the knowledge which is given to us by God Almighty. You have free will to accept this message or reject it but I would hope that you will read Quran and do your research before you reject it or accept it. You admit that you don’t know if God exist. We are giving you the resources which can help you find that answer. If you just reject without looking into those resources then that would be a dishonest effort on your part.

[chalks75]

You are right that once a religion attracts more people then true believers do get diluted but you can’t compare this to Christianity. Christianity has a very fundamental problem. They have mixed up lot of things with Divine message and has corrupted the message so much that it is clear to any sincere person that Bible has been changed just by looking at so many contradictions.

Quran is preserved by Allah Himself because it is the final message for entire humanity until day of judgement. Muhammad PBUH is the last messenger and no guidance is going to come after Quran. As long as we have true source for guidance, we can always turn to it to find the right path. This is not the case with Christianity.

Muslims believe that one day all people will become Muslims ( after Jesus will come back to fight the anti-Christ) and Islam will be the only religion. After Jesus PBUH’s death, people will again start following Satan and a day will come when there will be not a single believer on earth. That’s when trumpet will be blown and everyone will die to be raised again for the Day of Judgement.

Muslims don’t care about number game. If you think that we are spending our time and energy to convert you to Islam just to increase Muslims in the world then you are mistaken. What benefit I would gain if you become Muslim? Nothing I can gain in this world if you accept Islam.

Since no prophet is going to come after prophet Muhammad PBUH, it is duty of every Muslim to share the message with every non Muslim to save them and ourselves from the hell fire. This life is temporary and is a test. How we do in this test, determines our fate on the day of judgement. That’s the only reason we are spending our time and energy is debating with you and other non Muslims. We care about you and want to share the knowledge which is given to us by God Almighty. You have free will to accept this message or reject it but I would hope that you will read Quran and do your research before you reject it or accept it. You admit that you don’t know if God exist. We are giving you the resources which can help you find that answer. If you just reject without looking into those resources then that would be a dishonest effort on your part.

I don’t believe Satan exists either.

It’s not just Christianity , it’s any large movement political or religious.

Once true believers are out numbered by the wishy washy believers , people who join for the wrong reasons , then the true believers start to lose control of the movement.

Has Islam not already split into a few different branches, there are different types of Muslims .

When you say that you believe that all people will be Muslims ,,, do you mean they will convert after they die ?
When you say “ all” people , do you mean “ all” people ... so someone like ... George bush , or peadophilles, rapists ,,murderers will all be Muslims?

[M.I.A.]

I don’t believe Satan exists either.

It’s not just Christianity , it’s any large movement political or religious.

Once true believers are out numbered by the wishy washy believers , people who join for the wrong reasons , then the true believers start to lose control of the movement.

Has Islam not already split into a few different branches, there are different types of Muslims .

When you say that you believe that all people will be Muslims ,,, do you mean they will convert after they die ?
When you say “ all” people , do you mean “ all” people ... so someone like ... George bush , or peadophilles, rapists ,,murderers will all be Muslims?

I think that's not a true reflection of how things work..

Simply because "control" is not a numbers game in most cases..

I mean, it's not even a religion specific observation on your part..

Countries undergo elections and political reform often, along with changing attitudes and social/economic conditions.

Trumps America is not the same as Obamas America.. the very concept of a morality driven system is subjective.

For all intents and purposes, wishy washy believers are most open to influence.

But personal choice is the overriding factor, simply because the laws of the land apply equally to all..

And avoiding trouble is not the same as avoiding the police. Metaphorically speaking.

Basically in the end it comes down to which muslims will be left.. so making the right life choices is very important.

...probably,

Because they may claim to be wolves but underneath they are pretty much sheep.

im not saying you should kill of all the muslims, but it probably has been touted in some circles.. probably nowhere close to you anyway.

but you cant be held responsible for everyone can you.

[chalks75]

I think that's not a true reflection of how things work..

Simply because "control" is not a numbers game in most cases..

I mean, it's not even a religion specific observation on your part..

Countries undergo elections and political reform often, along with changing attitudes and social/economic conditions.

Trumps America is not the same as Obamas America.. the very concept of a morality driven system is subjective.

For all intents and purposes, wishy washy believes are most open to influence.

But personal choice is the overriding factor, simply because the laws of the land apply equally to all..

And avoiding trouble is not the same as avoiding the police. Metaphorically speaking.

Basically in the end it comes down to which muslims will be left.. so making the right life choices is very important.

...probably,

Because they may claim to be wolves but underneath they are pretty much sheep.

I did not say this was solely a religious phenomenon , I said religious , political etc .

It applies to any movement , the more people that become involved , the more different personalities bringing their own ideas and attitudes, the more difficult it becomes to maintain the core message or values.

It’s not country specific , religion specific , or movement specific , it’s people specific.

It’s what happens when larger numbers of people come together , it gets increasingly harder to get the all to agree.

I could sum it up

Less people are easier to control than more people.
Would you agree with that ?

As for wishy washy believers , you are right , they would possibly easier to influence , but that works both ways , they could just as easily be influenced to leave Islam , or take up what you would deem in Islamic practices based on a faulty interpretation of islam.

People will join if it’s fashionable , or popular , but they will not truly believe.
I’m sure there are people today who say they are Muslims , but deep down they don’t believe.

It will come down to the Muslims that are left when exactly ?

[M.I.A.]

I did not say this was solely a religious phenomenon , I said religious , political etc .

It applies to any movement , the more people that become involved , the more different personalities bringing their own ideas and attitudes, the more difficult it becomes to maintain the core message or values.

It’s not country specific , religion specific , or movement specific , it’s people specific.

It’s what happens when larger numbers of people come together , it gets increasingly harder to get the all to agree.

I could sum it up

Less people are easier to control than more people.
Would you agree with that ?

As for wishy washy believers , you are right , they would possibly easier to influence , but that works both ways , they could just as easily be influenced to leave Islam , or take up what you would deem in Islamic practices based on a faulty interpretation of islam.

i wouldnt say that, basically the degree of personal choice diminishes with increasing group size.. but only for those in positions of responsibility.

so it very much depends on what you are responsible for and those things in your care.


basically we can establish that control is inherent, it is needed simply because.. and get this..


some life choices are detrimental to the people, the government, the country, the communities, the families.

and these ways of life are unacceptable and in the end.. un-maintainable.

what we should aim for is systems of control that increase reward for compliance.

and in itself serves to be productive for the whole.


but that would require a level of observation that "big brother" can only hope to match.

You could still question such a system for being corruptible morally and unfair for large parts of the population..

But a real system would incorporate these groups to have a function of their own.. as part the larger system.

Which is still morally ambiguous.. but more cleverly efficient.

It will come down to the Muslims that are left when exactly ?

...ah sorry, I didn't mean that in the slightest.. you possibly misinterpreted it because of the subject matter.

Maybe I just meant those that conform to the definition of muslim.. amongst the masses.

I didnt mean to intentionally imply otherwise. Or for anyone to follow such lines of thinking.

;)

I'm not a politician.

[chalks75]

i wouldnt say that, basically the degree of personal choice diminishes with increasing group size.. but only for those in positions of responsibility.

so it very much depends on what you are responsible for and those things in your care.


basically we can establish that control is inherent, it is needed simply because.. and get this..


some life choices are detrimental to the people, the government, the country, the communities, the families.

and these ways of life are unacceptable and in the end.. un-maintainable.

what we should aim for is systems of control that increase reward for compliance.

and in itself serves to be productive for the whole.


but that would require a level of observation that "big brother" can only hope to match.

You could still question such a system for being corruptible morally and unfair for large parts of the population..

But a real system would incorporate these groups to have a function of their own.. as part the larger system.

Which is still morally ambiguous.. but more cleverly efficient.

I agree that religion is a system to control people , and the thought of a cosmic over watcher may encourage some people to behave ,
But
If you look at the world around us , religious people of all hues are just as likely to act immorally as those who do not believe in cosmic justice , so it’s not a successful system by any stretch of the imagination.

Couple this with the fact that there are so many religions claiming to be the one true religion it just confuses the matter more.

A better way to improve society would be to encourage people to think about their actions and how they impact others, that they have rights , but the right to swing their arm ends at the tip of my nose.
There are cases which the very belief in a god causes people to behave in ways I would call immoral ... Jews circumcision of children for example.


I think if your acting in a certain way because your afraid of what will happen if you don’t ... isn’t really acting morally , at least not as moral as doing the right thing because it’s the right thing to do

[M.I.A.]

I agree that religion is a system to control people , and the thought of a cosmic over watcher may encourage some people to behave ,
But
If you look at the world around us , religious people of all hues are just as likely to act immorally as those who do not believe in cosmic justice , so it’s not a successful system by any stretch of the imagination.

Couple this with the fact that there are so many religions claiming to be the one true religion it just confuses the matter more.

A better way to improve society would be to encourage people to think about their actions and how they impact others, that they have rights , but the right to swing their arm ends at the tip of my nose.
There are cases which the very belief in a god causes people to behave in ways I would call immoral ... Jews circumcision of children for example.


I think if your acting in a certain way because your afraid of what will happen if you don’t ... isn’t really acting morally , at least not as moral as doing the right thing because it’s the right thing to do

..the problem is that you enforce looking at the sky while following religion.

And yet yourself would point towards the world.

Religion is control but it is control for your own benefit.. for when people start finding your nose.

And if you dont know what reach is, then how can you know what nose is?

Maybe you just want to live your life without anyone trying to spoil it for you.

..and it would be even worse if you came to the conclusion you were sharing a room.

And yet you enforce thinking about others.. which basically means to move out of your way before the veneer of civility rubs off you.

Which is a part of morality you are probably unaware of.

[chalks75]

..the problem is that you enforce looking at the sky while following religion.

And yet yourself would point towards the world.

Religion is control but it is control for your own benefit.. for when people start finding your nose.

And if you dont know what reach is, then how can you know what nose is?

Maybe you just want to live your life without anyone trying to spoil it for you.

..and it would be even worse if you came to the conclusion you were sharing a room.

And yet you enforce thinking about others.. which basically means to move out of your way before the veneer of civility rubs off you.

Which is a part of morality you are probably unaware of.

I don’t enforce anything , if you choose to follow a religion I don’t have a problem with that , the only time I have a problem with religions is when they try to force their religious rules on other people.

We have other methods of control for “ when people start finding my nose”
They are laws, a part of those laws is that I have the right to defend myself , which I’m more than capable of doing if needed.

Of course I want to live a longer happy life , without it being spoiled , unfortunately for the vast majority if not everybody , that is not the case.
I think we can come up with a better moral system , rather than adopting a Bronze Age moral system en masse

I’m not sure what you meant when you said I “enforce when following religion “
I don’t follow any religious ideology .

I’m not sure where this conversation is going , it seems to have gone off on a tangent.

[chalks75]

Wow, really? It kind of makes sense but for atheism to specifically come about as a reaction against Christianity is kind of staggering, no?


:peace:

Atheism has existed longer before Christianity existed.
There were Greek philosophers who were atheist

As ling as there have been people claiming there is some god , there have been people not convinced that it’s true.

Which is all atheism is
I am not convinced gods , your god , the Christian god , Hindi gods are real.
That’s it .

Theists tend to conflate atheism with all kinds of things , evolution , morality, cosmology , leftists,
It’s true , you can be all those things and be an atheist
But
You don’t have to be any of those things to be an atheist.

I know more than one atheist that believes in an afterlife and does not accept evolution.
( lots of woo)

If your not 100% convinced that a god is real
Your agnostic
If you don’t know wether gods are real , you don’t believe they are
You are agnostic atheist.

[M.I.A.]

I don’t enforce anything , if you choose to follow a religion I don’t have a problem with that , the only time I have a problem with religions is when they try to force their religious rules on other people.

We have other methods of control for “ when people start finding my nose”
They are laws, a part of those laws is that I have the right to defend myself , which I’m more than capable of doing if needed.

Of course I want to live a longer happy life , without it being spoiled , unfortunately for the vast majority if not everybody , that is not the case.
I think we can come up with a better moral system , rather than adopting a Bronze Age moral system en masse

I’m not sure what you meant when you said I “enforce when following religion “
I don’t follow any religious ideology .

I’m not sure where this conversation is going , it seems to have gone off on a tangent.

I agree, it seems like it's going nowhere.

I suppose that's the difference between writing on the internet and actually having a conversation with someone lol.

I dont talk much , so it's very hard to put across.

[Zafran]

If you care about Islam , you should not hope for it to become really popular , it will attract converts that are not true believers.
It will dilute the number of true believers , you will end up with Islam lite.

God decides who enters the faith so I wouldnt worry about it to much.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;

I think we can come up with a better moral system , rather than adopting a Bronze Age moral system en masse

Morality is profoundly simple, we should treat everyone fairly, and do unto others as we would have them do unto us. The bronze age moral code as you call it still applies today. Not only should we be fair to others, but we should set aside money to give to the poor, we should learn to forgive and leave judgement to God.

In the spirit of searching for God,
Eric

[chalks75]

God decides who enters the faith so I wouldnt worry about it to much.

I guess the people that claim to be Muslims but act in an un-Islamic way are not in the faith.
No true Scotsman eh.

[chalks75]

I agree, it seems like it's going nowhere.

I suppose that's the difference between writing on the internet and actually having a conversation with someone lol.

I dont talk much , so it's very hard to put across.

These issues we are discussing are complex , and I understand how deeply people care about their religions.
Sometimes the conversations are difficult ,
And they lose direction

[chalks75]

Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;



Morality is profoundly simple, we should treat everyone fairly, and do unto others as we would have them do unto us. The bronze age moral code as you call it still applies today. Not only should we be fair to others, but we should set aside money to give to the poor, we should learn to forgive and leave judgement to God.

In the spirit of searching for God,
Eric

I agree with you 100%
We should treat others as we would like to be treated.
The golden rule , there are versions of this that date back 8000 years to the time of the Egyptians , and like wise Confucius wrote a version in his writings.
Jesus preached it
I don’t know for certain , but there is probably a verse in the Quran about it.

I don’t think you need a god to realise or practice this.

Have you ever heard of the “veil of ignorance “

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance

This is an excellent thought experiment.

[M.I.A.]

These issues we are discussing are complex , and I understand how deeply people care about their religions.
Sometimes the conversations are difficult ,
And they lose direction

Lol I wouldn't think so, I'd quite like to live in a town where nothing happens lol.

I hope you understand.

[chalks75]

Lol I wouldn't think so, I'd quite like to live in a town where nothing happens lol.

I hope you understand.

Not sure I do understand.

[Zafran]

I guess the people that claim to be Muslims but act in an un-Islamic way are not in the faith.
No true Scotsman eh.

There are over billions of Muslims doing all sorts of things - How many atheists are there again - and which ones are the True ones. Only God Knows.

[chalks75]

There are over billions of Muslims doing all sorts of things - How many atheists are there again - and which ones are the True ones. Only God Knows.

How many people believe something has no bearing on its truth.

[Zafran]

How many people believe something has no bearing on its truth.

atheism has nothing to do with truth remember its just a lack of belief not a truth claim. Its the reason why there has always been few atheist.

[chalks75]

atheism has nothing to do with truth remember its just a lack of belief not a truth claim. Its the reason why there has always been few atheist.

That’s true , atheism is not a claim to knowledge.
But
I wasn’t talking about atheism , I was talking about religions.

I does not matter how many people believe something ... it does not make it true.

If one person or a billion people believe something that is untrue .... the fact that they believe it’s true , does not make it true.

If you claim to know something , you should be able to demonstrate how you know it .
Beliefs should be justified , I believe this because of x y z.
Hopefully the reasons you believe something are good , sound, solid reasons.

After all , we all want to believe as many true things as possible.

[DanEdge]

Greetings All,

I didn't spend too much time looking this up, but I didn't find a lot of good data about atheism/agnosticism vs. theism. Well, I did find some good data, but it is very limited in time and place.

There is good data for the US. Reputable polling organizations like Pew Research have done their own studies, and in my opinion these are to be trusted. Pew found that: 1) atheism and agnosticism are on the rise in the US in the past 20 years, 2) those with more education or more likely to be atheist or agnostic, and 3) the younger someone is, the more likely they are to be atheist or agnostic.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...bout-atheists/

All of the research studies I looked at agree with the preceding three statements. There also seems to be an agreement among data sources that atheism and agnosticism are much more prevalent today than they were a hundred years ago in the US.

I tried to look up data for the Middle East, but I didn't like the data sources I found (eg., I don't trust polls by Secular Life or Conservatives.com). My guess is that either the topic is too politicized there or academic institutions just don't care about it that much to do serious studies.

In any case, I respectfully disagree with chalks75 on one point. The atheist position is indeed a claim to knowledge -- that a deity does not exist. So called "hard" atheism goes further -- that a deity cannot exist. What chalks75 calls atheism is usually referred to as agnosticism -- that there is no evidence of a deity.

As for me, I would describe myself as a fairly "hard" agnostic. I have no positive belief in a deity, but I think it is irrational to deny the possibility that a deity exists. If there is a higher power out there, it is much more mighty than this tiny brain inside my skull.

--Dan Edge

[chalks75]

Greetings All,

I didn't spend too much time looking this up, but I didn't find a lot of good data about atheism/agnosticism vs. theism. Well, I did find some good data, but it is very limited in time and place.

There is good data for the US. Reputable polling organizations like Pew Research have done their own studies, and in my opinion these are to be trusted. Pew found that: 1) atheism and agnosticism are on the rise in the US in the past 20 years, 2) those with more education or more likely to be atheist or agnostic, and 3) the younger someone is, the more likely they are to be atheist or agnostic.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...bout-atheists/

All of the research studies I looked at agree with the preceding three statements. There also seems to be an agreement among data sources that atheism and agnosticism are much more prevalent today than they were a hundred years ago in the US.

I tried to look up data for the Middle East, but I didn't like the data sources I found (eg., I don't trust polls by Secular Life or Conservatives.com). My guess is that either the topic is too politicized there or academic institutions just don't care about it that much to do serious studies.

In any case, I respectfully disagree with chalks75 on one point. The atheist position is indeed a claim to knowledge -- that a deity does not exist. So called "hard" atheism goes further -- that a deity cannot exist. What chalks75 calls atheism is usually referred to as agnosticism -- that there is no evidence of a deity.

As for me, I would describe myself as a fairly "hard" agnostic. I have no positive belief in a deity, but I think it is irrational to deny the possibility that a deity exists. If there is a higher power out there, it is much more mighty than this tiny brain inside my skull.

--Dan Edge

I agree with you that atheism is on the rise, in USA and Western Europe.
But just like religion , the number of people that believe something ( or disbelieve) has no bearing on its truth.

You are right there are 2 branches of atheism
Hard atheism , which would claim “ no god exists”
Then there is classical atheism which claims “ I do not believe a god exists”

Agnosticism relates to knowledge.

I am an agnostic atheist

I do not know wether a god or gods exist
I do not believe they do .
I am a classical atheist.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you chalky,

I am a classical atheist.

Does atheism inspire you to do anything?

For example when we go to a place of worship, there are often common themes, prayer, fasting, helping others, giving to charity, marriage for life, building communities and more. I do believe that theism brings people together in positive ways.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'
Eric

[chalks75]

Greetings and peace be with you chalky,



Does atheism inspire you to do anything?

For example when we go to a place of worship, there are often common themes, prayer, fasting, helping others, giving to charity, marriage for life, building communities and more. I do believe that theism brings people together in positive ways.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'
Eric

The very first post I made on this forum . I acknowledged the social aspects of religion.
It’s does foster a sense of community , but so does football.
I more concerned with wether or not it’s true.

Being an atheist , just means that I’m not convinced god claims are true.
So in a way , not being convinced that is true , led me to ask the question
If that’s not true , then what is , and what’s the best way to find out what’s true.

This has led me to learn about , science, history , religions , secular humanism, and a whole raft of other things I’d probably never of heard of , if I had just accepted the theism being offered.

In general , people act on what they believe , not on what they don’t believe
Which is why , what we believe and why is so very important.

Being a secular humanist, I’m also concerned with my fellow man.

[Ümit]

That’s true , atheism is not a claim to knowledge.
But
I wasn’t talking about atheism , I was talking about religions.

I does not matter how many people believe something ... it does not make it true.

If one person or a billion people believe something that is untrue .... the fact that they believe it’s true , does not make it true.

If you claim to know something , you should be able to demonstrate how you know it .
Beliefs should be justified , I believe this because of x y z.
Hopefully the reasons you believe something are good , sound, solid reasons.

After all , we all want to believe as many true things as possible.

Islaam is justified. We believe in the Quraan because it is a miracle on its own. how it is revealed by an illiterate person, the style how it is written, how flawless it is...that modern science cannot point a flaw in it...
There is no logical explanation how such a book can be produced in such circumstances, so it is divine....and if it is divine, then it is true...and therefore we believe in it.
Besides, Islaam is in total harmony with science. they are each others extensions...no other religion has this.

Science is just an approximation of the truth...one observes some strange phenomonon, believes that it may be causes by this or that, developes a theory, developes tests to examine this theory, depending on the outcome, the theory gets corrected and stands untill a more accurate test is performed to prove, disprove or correct the original theory.

So, it is possible that science can be a little off from the truth on some subjects.

Quraan however, is Gods word, and is therefore always the truth...If God created everything...even the laws of nature...why would He then teach us something different in the Quraan?
That would not make sense, would it?

So muslims support science as well, because it is a human method to understand the habitat we all live in.

Finally, according to science it is impossible that the whole universe came into existence on its own. The development of Earth took 14 billion years. seeing what circumstances was needed to form a single DNA molecule...there is no way that it can form just by coincidence in 14 billion years.
Besides, from Chaos does not come order. Glass is actually just molten SiO2 which is basically molten sand, deserts are full of it...yet you will never find an empty perfectly formed marmelade jar in the desert totally formed on its own...you will not find any piece of glass with the inscription "made on its own"...you will never find perfect, anatomically correct full stone statues of anything, totally made on its own....but the material is already there, for billions of years...so the world, moon, and other celestial bodies should be full with some sort of statues, yet nothing.

From chaos does not come order. That just does not make sense...it is not logical. So there must be some other explanation for it...which is the Quraan.
It is given information to us...So it is wise to at least investigate it.

But despite of that small chance of happening...even if a complete full functioning cell has been formed by chance...it still is dead material.
There is no possible explanation how dead material can come to life...evolusionist theorists speak about early enzymes that were hardly alive found each other and formed the first DNA molecule, but still the step between dead and hardly alive is infinitely huge.

So there must be some other explanation for it...which is God.

So to say "we do not know" is false, because we still have this given information, the Quraan. This is extra information for us to guide us, to give us directions.
It is up to you if you walk in that pointed direction or you just dwell in the dark and try to find your own way.

That is why we believe...and it is solid, explainable and totally logical.

[DanEdge]

Islaam is justified. We believe in the Quraan because it is a miracle on its own. how it is revealed by an illiterate person, the style how it is written, how flawless it is...that modern science cannot point a flaw in it...
There is no logical explanation how such a book can be produced in such circumstances, so it is divine....and if it is divine, then it is true...and therefore we believe in it.
Besides, Islaam is in total harmony with science. they are each others extensions...no other religion has this.

Science is just an approximation of the truth...one observes some strange phenomonon, believes that it may be causes by this or that, developes a theory, developes tests to examine this theory, depending on the outcome, the theory gets corrected and stands untill a more accurate test is performed to prove, disprove or correct the original theory.

So, it is possible that science can be a little off from the truth on some subjects.

Quraan however, is Gods word, and is therefore always the truth...If God created everything...even the laws of nature...why would He then teach us something different in the Quraan?
That would not make sense, would it?

So muslims support science as well, because it is a human method to understand the habitat we all live in.

Finally, according to science it is impossible that the whole universe came into existence on its own. The development of Earth took 14 billion years. seeing what circumstances was needed to form a single DNA molecule...there is no way that it can form just by coincidence in 14 billion years.
Besides, from Chaos does not come order. Glass is actually just molten SiO2 which is basically molten sand, deserts are full of it...yet you will never find an empty perfectly formed marmelade jar in the desert totally formed on its own...you will not find any piece of glass with the inscription "made on its own"...you will never find perfect, anatomically correct full stone statues of anything, totally made on its own....but the material is already there, for billions of years...so the world, moon, and other celestial bodies should be full with some sort of statues, yet nothing.

From chaos does not come order. That just does not make sense...it is not logical. So there must be some other explanation for it...which is the Quraan.
It is given information to us...So it is wise to at least investigate it.

But despite of that small chance of happening...even if a complete full functioning cell has been formed by chance...it still is dead material.
There is no possible explanation how dead material can come to life...evolusionist theorists speak about early enzymes that were hardly alive found each other and formed the first DNA molecule, but still the step between dead and hardly alive is infinitely huge.

So there must be some other explanation for it...which is God.

So to say "we do not know" is false, because we still have this given information, the Quraan. This is extra information for us to guide us, to give us directions.
It is up to you if you walk in that pointed direction or you just dwell in the dark and try to find your own way.

That is why we believe...and it is solid, explainable and totally logical.

Ümit,

Brilliant reply as usual. I always appreciate your thoughts, whether I agree with him or not.

Dan

[Ümit]

Ümit,

Brilliant reply as usual. I always appreciate your thoughts, whether I agree with him or not.

Dan

Thanks Dan,

But despite of that, I never managed to convince you...and that makes me sad.
You seem like a perfectly reasonable guy but somehow you keep hesitating.
I do not know how to make your hesitation go away.

I'll keep praying for you that one day you may find the answers you seek and that the puzzle pieces will fall into place.

Greetings,

Ümit

[chalks75]

Islaam is justified. We believe in the Quraan because it is a miracle on its own. how it is revealed by an illiterate person, the style how it is written, how flawless it is...that modern science cannot point a flaw in it...
There is no logical explanation how such a book can be produced in such circumstances, so it is divine....and if it is divine, then it is true...and therefore we believe in it.
Besides, Islaam is in total harmony with science. they are each others extensions...no other religion has this.

Science is just an approximation of the truth...one observes some strange phenomonon, believes that it may be causes by this or that, developes a theory, developes tests to examine this theory, depending on the outcome, the theory gets corrected and stands untill a more accurate test is performed to prove, disprove or correct the original theory.

So, it is possible that science can be a little off from the truth on some subjects.

Quraan however, is Gods word, and is therefore always the truth...If God created everything...even the laws of nature...why would He then teach us something different in the Quraan?
That would not make sense, would it?

So muslims support science as well, because it is a human method to understand the habitat we all live in.

Finally, according to science it is impossible that the whole universe came into existence on its own. The development of Earth took 14 billion years. seeing what circumstances was needed to form a single DNA molecule...there is no way that it can form just by coincidence in 14 billion years.
Besides, from Chaos does not come order. Glass is actually just molten SiO2 which is basically molten sand, deserts are full of it...yet you will never find an empty perfectly formed marmelade jar in the desert totally formed on its own...you will not find any piece of glass with the inscription "made on its own"...you will never find perfect, anatomically correct full stone statues of anything, totally made on its own....but the material is already there, for billions of years...so the world, moon, and other celestial bodies should be full with some sort of statues, yet nothing.

From chaos does not come order. That just does not make sense...it is not logical. So there must be some other explanation for it...which is the Quraan.
It is given information to us...So it is wise to at least investigate it.

But despite of that small chance of happening...even if a complete full functioning cell has been formed by chance...it still is dead material.
There is no possible explanation how dead material can come to life...evolusionist theorists speak about early enzymes that were hardly alive found each other and formed the first DNA molecule, but still the step between dead and hardly alive is infinitely huge.

So there must be some other explanation for it...which is God.

So to say "we do not know" is false, because we still have this given information, the Quraan. This is extra information for us to guide us, to give us directions.
It is up to you if you walk in that pointed direction or you just dwell in the dark and try to find your own way.

That is why we believe...and it is solid, explainable and totally logical.

Exactly ,,, you believe
Just like Christians believe
Jews believe
Hindus believe
The Greeks and Romans believed
The Mayan’s , Incas, Aztecs
The ancient Egyptians , the Norse

They all believed their gods were real,
And If you asked them

They would sound just like you.

You just listed your religious beliefs , I understand you have religious beliefs.

That’s all it is , your religious beliefs.

[chalks75]

Exactly ,,, you believe
Just like Christians believe
Jews believe
Hindus believe
The Greeks and Romans believed
The Mayan’s , Incas, Aztecs
The ancient Egyptians , the Norse

They all believed their gods were real,
And If you asked them

They would sound just like you.

You just listed your religious beliefs , I understand you have religious beliefs.

That’s all it is , your religious beliefs.

“ it was revealed by an illiterate person”
Can you prove that claim is true ?

If you can’t demonstrate that it’s true , I have no reason to believe it’s true.
Am I to take it in faith ?
Faith is not a reliable path to truth.

If there is one thing I have learned from my time on this forum , is that Christians and Muslims both tear their holy book the same way.

You scour the book and try to find verses that if your interpret in a certain way ,you can kind of make it fit a scientific funding
“ this must mean that syndrome”

If you really want to impress me ,

Quote me a future scientific discovery from the Quran.

Don’t wait for science to make a discovery , then search the book to find a passage that you can then point to and say ...Ah see,this meant that.

Give me a future scientific discovery

[Ümit]

Exactly ,,, you believe
Just like Christians believe
Jews believe
Hindus believe
The Greeks and Romans believed
The Mayan’s , Incas, Aztecs
The ancient Egyptians , the Norse

They all believed their gods were real,
And If you asked them

They would sound just like you.

You just listed your religious beliefs , I understand you have religious beliefs.

That’s all it is , your religious beliefs.

NO, I explained to you why I believe. Why it is logical to believe. I gave you solid arguments for believing.

Instead of ignoring those arguments and try to change the subject, why don't you try to provide counter arguments for them?

You've been reacting on multiple threads. I explained them all and provided solid answers.

[chalks75]

NO, I explained to you why I believe. Why it is logical to believe. I gave you solid arguments for believing.

Instead of ignoring those arguments and try to change the subject, why don't you try to provide counter arguments for them?

You've been reacting on multiple threads. I explained them all and provided solid answers.

You haven’t given solid arguments
You’ve given the exact same arguments Christians, jews, and Hindus use.

That’s all you have , philosophical arguments , assertions , and appeals to your holy book .

[Ümit]

“ it was revealed by an illiterate person”
Can you prove that claim is true ?

If you can’t demonstrate that it’s true , I have no reason to believe it’s true.
Am I to take it in faith ?
Faith is not a reliable path to truth.

again...yes there is enough material to point out that he actually was illiterate...so yes I could demonstrate...
But then...just google it and find it on your own...it is clear you just came here to argue...so do your homework yourself.

If there is one thing I have learned from my time on this forum , is that Christians and Muslims both tear their holy book the same way.

You scour the book and try to find verses that if your interpret in a certain way ,you can kind of make it fit a scientific funding
“ this must mean that syndrome”.

that is not true. we do not have multiple interpretations of the Quraan. The gray areas are just the product of translation errors. You must master Arabic and study history in order to fully understand what is written.

to help the common man, we have the Tafsirs to do that job. A Tafsir is a book that gives additional information about each verse, when, where and why it was revealed, what was happening in the world at that moment, to what it refers to and how it should be interpreted.

So just find yourself a tafsir and you will find the translation and how you should interpret it.

Tafsir ibn Kathir is a widely accepted one and its free.

If you really want to impress me ,

Quote me a future scientific discovery from the Quran.

Don’t wait for science to make a discovery , then search the book to find a passage that you can then point to and say ...Ah see,this meant that.

Give me a future scientific discovery

You do realize that this is just silly right?
First, why would I want to impress you?
Second, You want me to look into the future and tell you what discoveries science will make?
Even if that were possible, would you believe that, and would that really impress you?

Just an example:
it's the year 1900. here on Islamicboard I claim that mankind would land on the moon one day according to Quraan.
would you believe that or would you think that is a silly claim?
Be honest.

- - - Updated - - -

You haven’t given solid arguments
You’ve given the exact same arguments Christians, jews, and Hindus use.

That’s all you have , philosophical arguments , assertions , and appeals to your holy book .

Then provide counter arguments to the ones which you think are not solid instead of just claiming that and trying to ignore.

[chalks75]

I think I’ve heard enough.

I’ve been talking with people of other faiths for years ,
I came on here hoping to hear something different.

The arguments are the exact same , the appeals to authority the same , the claims of revealed knowledge , the same.
The way of thinking , the same
The false confidence , the same.

I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions , I appreciate it , hopefully I didn’t offend you or anyone reading .
That was never my intention.

I wasn’t convinced gods are real , I’m still not .

I think gods are a concept we created , to try and explain the universe and our place in it,
Gods exist in the minds of believers , like Santa exists in the minds of children.

Good luck for the future
All the best .

[Ümit]

I think I’ve heard enough.

I’ve been talking with people of other faiths for years ,
I came on here hoping to hear something different.

The arguments are the exact same , the appeals to authority the same , the claims of revealed knowledge , the same.
The way of thinking , the same
The false confidence , the same.

I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions , I appreciate it , hopefully I didn’t offend you or anyone reading .
That was never my intention.

I wasn’t convinced gods are real , I’m still not .

I think gods are a concept we created , to try and explain the universe and our place in it,
Gods exist in the minds of believers , like Santa exists in the minds of children.

Good luck for the future
All the best .

Let me translate:
You've been terrorizing people of other faiths for years. you developed some cunning arguments / questions in such a way that you can drive them in the corner easily.
Because their religion is not flawless and therefore, they cannot answer all of your questions.
So you came here hoping to find the same...but you bumped into hard rock unfortunately.

The arguments are nothing like the same. If they were similar arguments, you would go into it with counter arguments...but you just ignored them all.
You didn't offend any of us, yet you tried but was unable to.

You do not want to be convinced God is real...that was never your intention.

Good luck in the afterlife
All the best

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Always wondered why atheists come to this forum to deconvert? This article provides some insight.

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[Rafa79]

In essence, you have explained the miracle of the Quran! It does not speak to humankind in isolation, nor was it meant for a fixed time. What you call interpretation we Muslims believe to be enlightenment. Yes, you’re absolutely right! Muslims do turn to the Quran for verification.
The Quran is not meant to be read as merely a reference. Every verse is a clarification over the verses that come before it or after it. It is meant to be appreciated in its entirety.
If you only read the verses in isolation you will not truly appreciate the message. When you read the Quran it becomes evident that Allah has already presupposed the Questions/Criticisms that are posed, by atheists and people of other faiths. Now if you believe that the Holy Quran was written by a single author, or as if oftentimes posited by the likes of sceptical historians like Tom Holland, then surely you would find many discrepancies, there would be no logical flow (that is one verse elaborating an earlier verse or making reference to what has been revealed before). The Quran I own is over a thousand pages long!)

Surely, if you were to write a religious text you could not presuppose every single refutation. Even if you did, I think it would take more than a lifetime of dedication. Why would you?
The first Surah (chapter) revealed to Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is Surah Al-Alaq and it reads:

Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists),
Has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood).
Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous,
Who has taught (the writing) by the pen [the first person to write was Prophet Idrees (Enoch)],
Has taught man that which he knew not.
Nay! Verily, man does transgress all bounds (in disbelief and evil deed, etc.).
Because he considers himself self-sufficient.
Surely! Unto your Lord is the return.
Have you (O Muhammad) seen him who prevents,
A slave (Muhammad) when he prays?
Tell me, if he (Muhammad) is on the guidance (of Allah)?
Or enjoins piety?
Tell me if he (the disbeliever) denies (the truth, i.e. this Qur'an), and turns away?
Knows he not that Allah does see (what he does)?
Nay! If he ceases not, We will catch him by the forelock,
A lying, sinful forelock!
Then, let him call upon his council (of helpers),
We will call the guards of Hell (to deal with him)!
Nay! (O Muhammad)! Do not obey him. Fall prostrate and draw near to Allah!

The first revelation begins with a challenge to anyone who disputes the word of Allah. I can’t think of any text, religious or otherwise, that is revealed in such a way. You would not be actively encouraging people to go away and read and seek knowledge. Yet Allah does, because he knows all.

Moreover, Allah reveals in the Quran that you do not have to believe. Your disbelief is not in any way affecting him. Again, if you were to write out a religious text you would be actively encouraging people to follow your religion. You see, I don’t mind when people mock Islam, because I know that whatever they’re thinking or saying has already been answered or countered with a worthier question from Allah!

In turn Allah also as whoever is reading the Quran to reveal a single surah like that which is in the Quran. Surely, you would not offer such a challenge, if only it is revealed by anyone else but Allah.

‘Or they say : He hath invented it! Say: then bring a surah like it unto it, and call on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful.’ (Surah Yunus 10:38)
Allah continues to challenge the reader:

‘Or do they say, "He invented it"? Say, "Then bring ten surahs like it that have been invented and call upon [for assistance] whomever you can besides Allah, if you should be truthful.’ (Surah Hud 13-14)

All the refutations you can ever conceive of is answered by single verses, whole Surahs and the entirety of the Quran, that is why it is the ultimate miracle from Allah!

The Quran speaks to us, challenges us. Every turn of the page reinforces what came before it. Open any textbook, Reference book, journal, article and you are bound to find something that invites further discussion, raises discrepancies in the authors ideas, they are admitting to their own fallibility, they’re saying ‘Hey I cant think of everything’. Sooner or later someone comes along and finds an error. Allah challenges you to do so. When you think you have? He has later revealed further clear proofs and signs that the Quran is his word alone. That is how the glorious Quran continues throughout: that is a sublime miracle indeed!

Now, let me turn to the matter of Science. You ask why the Quran has not revealed future scientific discoveries. Because we as humans haven’t discovered them yet!

You can’t observe Scientific experimentation/Results/Proofs retrospectively; it’s paradoxical. Science itself is a synthesis of ideas. Previous experimentation often reveals an unintended consequence, such as the discovery of Penicillin. The Quran is fully intended. It presages everything.

Here are a few verses from the Quran (although there are many more) that allude to Science:

‘And of everything we created a pair. That perhaps you may remember (Surah 51 verse 49)

Traits often occur in pairs. The capacity for producing these traits is carried on Chromosomes which also occur in pairs.
The human contains body cells which have 23 pairs of chromosomes in the nucleus. Twenty-two pairs control most of the characteristics. Pair 23 are the sex chromosomes. They carry genes that determine an embryo's sex - whether offspring are male or female: males have two different sex chromosomes, XY. females have two X chromosomes, XX.

Atoms contain an electron pair or a Lewis pair consisting of two electrons that occupy the same molecular orbit.

‘He is the Knower of the unseen. Not an Atoms weight or less than that or greater, escapeth him in the heavens or in the earth, but it is in a clear record (Surah Saba 34:3)
This verse clearly, irrefutably refers to sub atomic particles (as the Greek posited the existence of Atoms through rumination, however Democritus did not refer to the sub atomic world, as far as we know!)

‘There is clear record…’ the Universe is a mathematical construct with a clear mathematical order.

‘Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then we parted them? And we made from water every living thing. Will they not believe?’ (Surah Al-Anbiya verse 30)

The above verse clearly describes the Big Bang/Singularity. And what are living organisms made of? Water! Notice also the challenge at the end of the verse.