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Ümit
03-09-2018, 07:20 AM
Salaam Aleykum dear brothers and sisters.

I would like to ask you to help me understanding a hadeeth, because I got stuck on the other thread about it.
The hadeeth I am talking about is this one:

Sayyiduna ‘Ali (radiyallahu ‘anhu) said:“If the religion were based on opinion, it would be more important to wipe [make masah on] the under part of the leather sock rather than the upper, however, I have seen Rasulullah (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) wipe the upper part.”(Sunan Abi Dawud, Hadith: 163, At Talkhisul Habir, Hadith: 717)

This seems to be a saheeh hadeeth. this is also translated as:

“If religion were based on opinion [what people think is common sense], then the bottom of the leather socks would be wiped rather than the top, but I saw the Messenger of Allaah wiping the top of them.” - Ali Ibn Abi Taalib

or these hadeeths from Sunan Abī Dāwūd:

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

If the religion were based on opinion, it would be more important to wipe the under part of the shoe than the upper but I have seen the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) wiping over the upper part of his shoes.

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْعَلاَءِ، حَدَّثَنَا حَفْصٌ، - يَعْنِي ابْنَ غِيَاثٍ - عَنِ الأَعْمَشِ، عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ خَيْرٍ، عَنْ عَلِيٍّ، - رضى الله عنه - قَالَ لَوْ كَانَ الدِّينُ بِالرَّأْىِ لَكَانَ أَسْفَلُ الْخُفِّ أَوْلَى بِالْمَسْحِ مِنْ أَعْلاَهُ وَقَدْ رَأَيْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَمْسَحُ عَلَى ظَاهِرِ خُفَّيْهِ ‏.‏


Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani) صحيح (الألباني) حكم :
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 162
In-book reference : Book 1, Hadith 162
English translation : Book 1, Hadith 162

This tradition has been transmitted through a different chain of narrators. This version adds:
“I always preferred to wash the under part of the feet until I saw the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) wiping the upper part of them.

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ رَافِعٍ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ آدَمَ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ، عَنِ الأَعْمَشِ، بِإِسْنَادِهِ بِهَذَا الْحَدِيثِ قَالَ مَا كُنْتُ أُرَى بَاطِنَ الْقَدَمَيْنِ إِلاَّ أَحَقَّ بِالْغَسْلِ حَتَّى رَأَيْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَمْسَحُ عَلَى ظَهْرِ خُفَّيْهِ ‏.‏


Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani) صحيح (الألباني) حكم :
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 163
In-book reference : Book 1, Hadith 163
English translation : Book 1, Hadith 163

A ‘mash transmitted this tradition saying:
If religion were based on opinion, it would be more proper to wipe the under part of the feet than the upper. The Prophet (ﷺ) wiped over the upper part of his shoes.
The narrator Waki’ said: I saw ‘ Ali perform ablution and wash the upper part of his feet, and say : Had I not seen the Messenger of Allah(ﷺ) doing like this –and he narrated the tradition in full.

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْعَلاَءِ، حَدَّثَنَا حَفْصُ بْنُ غِيَاثٍ، عَنِ الأَعْمَشِ، بِهَذَا الْحَدِيثِ قَالَ لَوْ كَانَ الدِّينُ بِالرَّأْىِ لَكَانَ بَاطِنُ الْقَدَمَيْنِ أَحَقَّ بِالْمَسْحِ مِنْ ظَاهِرِهِمَا وَقَدْ مَسَحَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم عَلَى ظَهْرِ خُفَّيْهِ وَرَوَاهُ وَكِيعٌ عَنِ الأَعْمَشِ بِإِسْنَادِهِ قَالَ كُنْتُ أُرَى أَنَّ بَاطِنَ الْقَدَمَيْنِ أَحَقُّ بِالْمَسْحِ مِنْ ظَاهِرِهِمَا حَتَّى رَأَيْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَمْسَحُ عَلَى ظَاهِرِهِمَا ‏.‏ قَالَ وَكِيعٌ يَعْنِي الْخُفَّيْنِ ‏.‏ وَرَوَاهُ عِيسَى بْنُ يُونُسَ عَنِ الأَعْمَشِ كَمَا رَوَاهُ وَكِيعٌ وَرَوَاهُ أَبُو السَّوْدَاءِ عَنِ ابْنِ عَبْدِ خَيْرٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ قَالَ رَأَيْتُ عَلِيًّا تَوَضَّأَ فَغَسَلَ ظَاهِرَ قَدَمَيْهِ وَقَالَ لَوْلاَ أَنِّي رَأَيْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَفْعَلُهُ ‏.‏ وَسَاقَ الْحَدِيثَ ‏.‏


Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani) صحيح (الألباني) حكم :
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 164
In-book reference : Book 1, Hadith 164
English translation : Book 1, Hadith 164

I have some trouble understanding these hadeeths.

These hadeeth are often quoted by people who claim the say that religion is not about opinion, common sense and logic.
This seems to go totally against my understanding of what religion is about.
I thought, Allah did not gave us the ability to distinguish what is right and wrong for nothing.
we are supposed to use our common sense to know what is right and what is wrong and choose the best one.
This ability especially distinguishes us from the other creatures of Allah and gives us the highest rank among all of them because we CHOOSE to serve Allah even though we do not have to. we have the freedom to not obey.
Angels do not have this option...they just do what they are ordered to and cannot say no.

So, my understanding is that religion should be all about logic and all about common sense.

what I think is going on here is misunderstanding the hadeeth or perhaps a fault in the translation of the original text.

opinion has nothing to do with reasoning and logic. it is about personal preference. one likes the color red, the other one pink, blue or yellow.
reasoning however, (if used correctly of course) is supposed to come to the same or similar conclusions as others independantly. of course it can be slightly influenced by personal preference, but the outcome should be pretty comparable with others.

I can understand that religion has nothing to do with opinion...because one would prefer this, and the other would prefer that, and soon we would have a wide variety of how people do some religional actions differently.

So, I think this hadeeth speaks only about opinion, and not about reasoning and common sense. Unfortunately, I do not speak Arabic so I cannot look into the original arabic version of these hadeeth and verify this assumption.

Can someone who knows Arabic, or who has more information about this hadeeth, please shed his / her light on this issue?

Thanks in advance.

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azc
03-09-2018, 04:30 PM
We can use logic to understand this deen though but when Quranic verse or authentic hadith upon which majority of scholars agree is presented to us no logic will be used therein.
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Misbah-Abd
03-09-2018, 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by azc
We can use logic to understand this deen though but when Quranic verse or authentic hadith upon which majority of scholars agree is presented to us no logic will be used therein.
And this is the problem with some of these people on here. They value their opinions over what is established in the Deen already.
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azc
03-09-2018, 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
And this is the problem with some of these people on here. They value their opinions over what is established in the Deen already.
If I do this mistake, plz point out. InshaAllah, I'll take care
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Misbah-Abd
03-09-2018, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by azc
If I do this mistake, plz point out. InshaAllah, I'll take care
Wasn't implying you brother. But if any of us do it then we need to put ourselves in check.
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Ümit
03-09-2018, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by azc
We can use logic to understand this deen though but when Quranic verse or authentic hadith upon which majority of scholars agree is presented to us no logic will be used therein.
There is no need to...because this Quranic verse or sahih hadeeth would be logical automatically. İt may not appear to be at first...but if you would investigate it...you would find the logic behind it eventually.

This is what İ am convinced of...because again...our beautifull deen is all about logic and common sense.
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Misbah-Abd
03-09-2018, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by umie
There is no need to...because this Quranic verse or sahih hadeeth would be logical automatically. İt may not appear to be at first...but if you would investigate it...you would find the logic behind it eventually.

This is what İ am convinced of...because again...our beautifull deen is all about logic and common sense.
There are things in the Deen that may seem illogical due to man's limited reasoning. Part of being a Muslim is believing in the Unseen.

In Imam Ahmad's book, Usool us Sunnah, it reads:

7. And the Sunnah with us are the aathaar (narrations) of the Messenger of Allaah (swallallahu alaihi wasallam) and the Sunnah explains and clarifies the Qur’aan . It is the guide to t he Qur’aan [containing evidences and indications as to its meanings and correct interpretations. There is no analogical reasoning in the Sunnah and examples or likenesses are not to be made for it. Nor is it grasped and comprehended by the intellects or the desires. Rather it [consists of] following [and depending upon] it and abandoning the hawaa [desire]. And whoever does not know the explanation of a hadeeth and (whose] intellect [does not have the capacity] to make him understand it, then that would be sufficient (i.e., to just merely affirm the ahaadeeth and have faith in them] since [every thing from the religion] has been perfected for him. And it is necessary for him to have faith in it and to submit to it, such as the hadeeth of the truthful, the believed and whatever is similar to it in the matter of al-Qadar. And also like the ahaadeeth regarding the Ru’yah (the Believer’s seeing of Allaah in the Hereafter), all of them , even if they disagree with people’s hearing and [even] if the one who s listening to them feels repelled by and is averse to them. Certainly, it is obligatory upon him to have faith in them and not to reject a single word from them nor from other[such] Ahaadeeth, which have been reported by reliable,trustworthy narrators....i

And Allah Knows Best
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