Is Evolution Compatible with Islam?

[Scimitar]

Hot out of the oven, this one is cooking up a storm in sh'Allah! So let's get straight into it!!!

NOTE: If you are even remotely peckish, grab yourself some savouries and juice, and come back here!!!

Is Islam Compatible With Evolution?

Biological evolution is a topic that is always on the table when it comes to any reasoned discussion about Islam at a university level. With that in mind, the Islamic Society (ISOC) at the London School of Economics (LSE) invited iERA to deliver a lecture about the compatibility of Islam and evolution. This was part of the LSE Discover Islam Week 2018.

iERA Outreach Specialist Subboor Ahmad spoke to a 50+ audience of mainly Muslim ISOC members from various disciplines across the university. His aim was to set the correct scene for them so that they will be prepared to answer questions from other students or answer the questions they themselves are asking on this important topic.

Subboor spoke at length about the misrepresentation of evolutionary biology by popular Atheist figures. He also spoke about the philosophy of science and biology. His engaging lecture also discussed epistemology, the theory of knowledge as well as important scientific issues that evolutionary biology is based upon.

The ‘aha’ moment came when the ISOC members understood that the science is not absolute and therefore not a problem for the Islamic discourse. They also walked away understanding that nothing in evolutionary biology disproves God.




Enjoy dismantling evolution responsibly, always bin rubbish theories... and keep your country tidy ;)

[Zafran]

salaam

I'm going to watch later Insha Allah.

peace

[czgibson]

Greetings,

[QUOTE=Scimitar;2988090]NOTE: If you are even remotely peckish, grab yourself some savouries and juice, and come back here!!!

Good plan. :D

Subboor spoke at length about the misrepresentation of evolutionary biology by popular Atheist figures. He also spoke about the philosophy of science and biology.

This guy definitely represents progress. He's the most intelligent Muslim speaker I've heard for quite a while. At least he has the sense to announce to everybody that evolution is a valid scientific theory. He's still trying to get to grips with ideas that are new to him, and in many respects approaches things from the wrong angle. For example, quoting a paragraph in a science textbook that is clearly speculative in tone and then concluding that the rest of the book must be unscientific as well.

When he's more conversant with the ideas he's discussing, and able to avoid obvious blunders like that, he might make a decent debater.

His engaging lecture also discussed epistemology, the theory of knowledge as well as important scientific issues that evolutionary biology is based upon.

There's that word again, epistemology. Second time I've seen it on the forum this week.

The ‘aha’ moment came when the ISOC members understood that the science is not absolute and therefore not a problem for the Islamic discourse.

"Science is not absolute" is a truth that more people need to understand.

They also walked away understanding that nothing in evolutionary biology disproves God.

Yes, nothing can ever disprove God. Along with all the other ideas that are impossible to disprove.

I remember Ansar Al-Adl, esteemed member of this forum, posting a thread many years ago about how nothing in the field of evolutionary biology was in conflict with the beliefs of Islam, and it's good to hear a distant echo of that idea here.

Enjoy dismantling evolution responsibly, always bin rubbish theories... and keep your country tidy ;)

If evolution turns out to be a rubbish theory, we definitely should bin it!

Until then...

Peace

[MazharShafiq]

slamic views on evolution are diverse, ranging from theistic evolution to Old Earth creationism.[1] Most Muslims around the world believe "humans and other living things have evolved over time," yet some others believe they have "always existed in present form."[2] Muslim thinkers have proposed and accepted elements of the theory of evolution, some holding the belief of the supremacy of God in the process. One modern scholar, Usaama al-Azami, suggested that both narratives of creation and of evolution, as understood by modern science, may be believed by modern Muslims as addressing two different kinds of truth, the revealed and the empirical.[3]

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[Misbah-Abd]

As a Muslim, the question should be phrased, "Is evolution compatible with Islam?" Since Islam is the truth, we check theories and ideologies with that proper lens and then we won't be misguided.

[keiv]

slamic views on evolution are diverse, ranging from theistic evolution to Old Earth creationism.[1] Most Muslims around the world believe "humans and other living things have evolved over time," yet some others believe they have "always existed in present form."[2] Muslim thinkers have proposed and accepted elements of the theory of evolution, some holding the belief of the supremacy of God in the process. One modern scholar, Usaama al-Azami, suggested that both narratives of creation and of evolution, as understood by modern science, may be believed by modern Muslims as addressing two different kinds of truth, the revealed and the empirical.[3]

What kind of evolution are they talking about exactly? Are we talking about a change in height, weight, intellect, etc.? Or are we talking about:

As far as I know, according to Islam, the first person (Adam AS) was in human form and not only that, but he was granted knowledge which surpassed even the angels if I'm not mistaken. So, with just that basic info, to believe we evolved from a long chain of different species is not compatible with Islam, in my opinion of course.

[cinnamonrolls1]

Well what kinda evolution? Mutations? Darwins evolution theory? Adaptations? So many kinds subhanallah

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Well what kinda evolution? Mutations? Darwins evolution theory? Adaptations? So many kinds subhanallah

When people talk about evolution, most of the time they mean Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection. Mutation and adaptation are key concepts within this theory.

Peace

[cinnamonrolls1]

Greetings,



When people talk about evolution, most of the time they mean Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection. Mutation and adaptation are key concepts within this theory.

Peace

Ahh, thank you!

[azc]

Ahh, thank you!

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/darululoomtt/52189

The Theory of Evolution - IslamQA Q. Can you kindly explain in detail what our view is as Muslims, concerning the theory of Evolution please. We are interested in showing our non-Muslims accomplices evidences from the Quran and from science itself that refutes evolution. A. The following is a beautiful article on this topic which has been written by...

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Q. Can you kindly explain in detail what our view is as Muslims, concerning the theory of Evolution please. We are interested in showing our non-Muslims accomplices evidences from the Quran and from science itself that refutes evolution. A. The following is a beautiful article on this topic which has been written by...

The questioner doesn't appear to be interested in learning anything about evolution itself, as the question specifically asks straight away for evidence that refutes it.

It really doesn't have to be this way. Plenty of Muslims believe there is no conflict between evolution and Islamic belief, including respected members of this forum. No scientific theory can ever disprove the existence of God.

In any case, nobody will learn very much about evolution from that particular article. The author clearly has little familiarity with the subject and his text has simple factual errors in many places.

Peace

[Eric H]

greetings and peace be with you czgibson;

When people talk about evolution, most of the time they mean Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection. Mutation and adaptation are key concepts within this theory.

And here is the problem; natural selection and mutation are used as an explanation to exclude the need for God.

I believe the human skeleton with all the ligaments, muscles and tendons is the most complex machine on the planet today. This is a link to an eighteenth century Automaton called the ‘Writer’. It is a masterpiece of engineering using 6000 parts, mostly cams and levers to mechanise movement. I find it fascinating watching the short video show how complex the movement of the human body is, and we take it for granted.

I see no way our bodies could come into being without God.



In the spirit of searching for God
Eric

[Zafran]

Yes, nothing can ever disprove God. Along with all the other ideas that are impossible to disprove.

what do you mean by this? do you mean anything in the scientific field can not prove/disprove God?

Overall its a good talk. we need more Muslims who actually know what they are talking about when it comes to evolution and not rely on Harun Yahya and co. More Muslims need to be familiar with the philosophy of science for a more serious understanding of what the scientific method deals with and what it is not equipped to answer.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

And here is the problem; natural selection and mutation are used as an explanation to exclude the need for God.

By some people, yes. But why should that affect your own personal relationship with God?

It's true that there are individuals whose understanding of evolution has led them to become atheists. But there are also plenty of people who see no conflict between evolution and theism. The theory of evolution itself has nothing definite to say on the subject of God.

I believe the human skeleton with all the ligaments, muscles and tendons is the most complex machine on the planet today.

Don't forget about the brain, which makes the mechanical parts of our anatomy like the skeleton and muscles look simple. The human brain is the most complex object in the known universe.

what do you mean by this? do you mean anything in the scientific field can not prove/disprove God?

Use of the scientific method cannot prove or disprove anything without data.

Overall its a good talk. we need more Muslims who actually know what they are talking about when it comes to evolution and not rely on Harun Yahya and co.

You are right. It's astonishing that someone as ignorant as Harun Yahya could gain such a following. Just an obvious charlatan, and yet so many have fallen for it. I'm really glad that the discourse around here seems to have been elevated on this topic a little more recently.

More Muslims need to be familiar with the philosophy of science for a more serious understanding of what the scientific method deals with and what it is not equipped to answer.

I agree with this very much. The same goes for you, me and everybody. Thank you for taking the time to think about it.

Peace

[azc]

@czgibson :

his text has simple factual errors in many places

Please elaborate....

Thanks

[cinnamonrolls1]

For all we know God could very well have ordained evolution to happen. Much like God (in my opinion) ordained genetic mutations etc.

[Scimitar]

Does science lead to atheism ???

[Scimitar]

Greetings, Scimitar,

I often enjoy your posts too. :statisfie

As your brother in Humanity, I wholly agree with a lot of what you write on this forum. Theologically, we may differ on some points. But otherwise, we see eye to eye on many things! :)

Ever heard of agnostic atheism? It's the category that most atheists belong to, and I'm among their number. I certainly don't say "There is definitely no God". That is the strong atheist position, and it is philosophically indefensible, in my opinion. I assume that the number of serious, intelligent atheists who subscribe to the strong atheist position is very small indeed.

Agreed, (and yes I'm aware of agnostic atheism). However, among the many types of atheist out there in the world today, there is a particular type of atheist, namely the misotheist whom I find quite interesting and amusing!

The Misotheist hates God, hates the idea of God and misotheists are ardently against the concept of God! It's like in the movie "The Usual Suspects" where Kevin Spacey's character, Verbal Kent says "Keaton always said 'I don't believe in God but I'm afraid of Him'" a very poignant statement of admission for his misotheist position. One cannot claim to not believe in God and still fear a God that one doesn't believe exists - the idea here is that Keaton did believe that God exists, however, as an open enemy to God he knew that one day he will have to be judged by God and thus, was afraid of Him!!! A very interesting atheist position of misotheism. Willful denial of the ultimate axiomatic truth! Such people do exist!

There are many type of atheist. It's a big world of opinionated disbelief out there eh bro? ;)

However, being an agnostic atheist does not mean that I assign an equal probability to the statements "God exists" and "God doesn't exist". I think it's massively more likely that God doesn't exist, so I typically label myself an atheist, unless there's time for this little explanation.

Peace

There is always time, and I'm a willing ear!

[czgibson]

Greetings,

As your brother in Humanity, I wholly agree with a lot of what you write on this forum. Theologically, we may differ on some points. But otherwise, we see eye to eye on many things! :)

I think that is the kindest thing anyone has said to me on the forum in a long time. Scimitar, you're a star. :shade:

We are all members of the human species, and I very much hope that those of us who are willing to talk to each other are more numerous than those who want to restrict us and prevent us from talking to each other.

The Misotheist hates God, hates the idea of God and misotheists are ardently against the concept of God! It's like in the movie "The Usual Suspects" where Kevin Spacey's character, Verbal Kent says "Keaton always said 'I don't believe in God but I'm afraid of Him'" a very poignant statement of admission for his misotheist position. One cannot claim to not believe in God and still fear a God that one doesn't believe exists - the idea here is that Keaton did believe that God exists, however, as an open enemy to God he knew that one day he will have to be judged by God and thus, was afraid of Him!!! A very interesting atheist position of misotheism. Willful denial of the ultimate axiomatic truth! Such people do exist!

There are many type of atheist. It's a big world of opinionated disbelief out there eh bro? ;)

Yes indeed. People hold all sorts of beliefs and non-beliefs. You're being very clever here by using a great film to illustrate a point that you feel may has some immediate relevance, so I'll encourage a quick round of applause for that. Keaton's statement is typical of the film's paradoxes (along with "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"), but his position is clearly an absurd one, as you mention. You can't hate a being you don't believe exists, unless it's some kind of fictional character, for example. I don't think too many misotheists exist in reality.

There is always time, and I'm a willing ear!

That's very kind of you. I would love to hear your thoughts on whether or not evolution is compatible with Islam, and lots of other topics.

Peace

[czgibson]

Greetings,

@czgibson :



Please elaborate....

Thanks

I would very much like to elaborate, but I fear the forum staff would not allow it.

Peace

[Scimitar]

Greetings,



I think that is the kindest thing anyone has said to me on the forum in a long time. Scimitar, you're a star. :shade:

Those burn too hot :D

We are all members of the human species, and I very much hope that those of us who are willing to talk to each other are more numerous than those who want to restrict us and prevent us from talking to each other.

Me too! Perspective is refreshing. I believe it was Aristotle who said (paraphrasing) The sign of intelligence is in being able to entertain an idea without necessarily having to accept it!

I do like reading up on the old lovers of knowledge... they knew how to have a party in their minds ;)

Yes indeed. People hold all sorts of beliefs and non-beliefs. You're being very clever here by using a great film to illustrate a point that you feel may has some immediate relevance, so I'll encourage a quick round of applause for that. Keaton's statement is typical of the film's paradoxes (along with "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"), but his position is clearly an absurd one, as you mention. You can't hate a being you don't believe exists, unless it's some kind of fictional character, for example. I don't think too many misotheists exist in reality.

I haven't met many misotheists in reality, but online - plenty. Not sure quite how that works lol. The atheists I know in real life, are indifferent to what I believe and I to their disbelief/unbelief. Although they do claim I'm reliable due to my religions teachings, which I have to say does make me smile :)

That's very kind of you. I would love to hear your thoughts on whether or not evolution is compatible with Islam, and lots of other topics.

Peace

I would posit that evolution can be possible within the animal kingdoms... but not when it comes to humanity. If I remember correctly, a Muslim named Ibn Khaldun was the first to theorize that all creation went through an evolutionary process - eventually resulting in man - though he didn't offer any truly scientific explanation of the process itself. It was more a blinded theory based on some dodgy induction; he did this back in the 14th century I think.... way before Darwin proposed his model.

They would have gotten along well, Darwin and Ibn Khaldun. Don't you think?

Myself, I prefer to believe that all living things which we can observe on earth have a common origin - this origin being "water"!!! But I remain staunchly repugnant to the idea of human evolution! We have very rich traditions within Islam regarding the creation of Adam which do not result in any reference to an evolutionary process! God made Adam from clay, water and some fluids. We do not read in the Qur'an that God made Adam from a monkey or pig or banana! However, God does mention that all living things are made from water!!!

Qur'an 24:45 "Allah has created every [living] creature from water. "

Amazing for this to be revealed in the 7th century to a desert dwelling Arab who knew not how to read or write. Amazing right?

[rafhelp]

is it just a big coincidence that before the arrival/emergence of humans ALL the dinosaurs were wiped in like one foul swoop?

It was most likely done so that Humans could live on Earth as there was no way Man and Dinosaurs could co-exist

In terms of the time between when they went extinct and when we believe humans first arrived/emerged well time could be different in heavens and Earth.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I do like reading up on the old lovers of knowledge... they knew how to have a party in their minds!

That is definitely an attitude that should be encouraged.

I would posit that evolution can be possible within the animal kingdoms... but not when it comes to humanity. If I remember correctly, a Muslim named Ibn Khaldun was the first to theorize that all creation went through an evolutionary process - eventually resulting in man - though he didn't offer any truly scientific explanation of the process itself. It was more a blinded theory based on some dodgy induction; he did this back in the 14th century I think.... way before Darwin proposed his model.

They would have gotten along well, Darwin and Ibn Khaldun. Don't you think?

Quite possibly. Ibn Khaldun made some very important contributions to science, including his idea that humans developed from "the world of the monkeys". He is a long way from being the first to mention evolution, though. Anaximander of Miletus is the earliest I'm aware of, over a thousand years previously.

Myself, I prefer to believe that all living things which we can observe on earth have a common origin - this origin being "water"!!! But I remain staunchly repugnant to the idea of human evolution! We have very rich traditions within Islam regarding the creation of Adam which do not result in any reference to an evolutionary process! God made Adam from clay, water and some fluids. We do not read in the Qur'an that God made Adam from a monkey or pig or banana! However, God does mention that all living things are made from water!!!

Your opposition to human evolution (no matter how staunch or repugnant) does have a lot of evidence stacked against it. Whereas the evidence supporting the existence of Adam is...?

Qur'an 24:45 "Allah has created every [living] creature from water. "

Amazing for this to be revealed in the 7th century to a desert dwelling Arab who knew not how to read or write. Amazing right?

Is it? Anaximander's teacher, Thales of Miletus said the same thing. We are indebted to the Muslims of the Islamic Golden Age for preserving this knowledge of ancient Greek science, and I highly recommend that everyone learn about it!

Peace

[Ümit]

Myself, I prefer to believe that all living things which we can observe on earth have a common origin - this origin being "water"!!! But I remain staunchly repugnant to the idea of human evolution! We have very rich traditions within Islam regarding the creation of Adam which do not result in any reference to an evolutionary process! God made Adam from clay, water and some fluids. We do not read in the Qur'an that God made Adam from a monkey or pig or banana! However, God does mention that all living things are made from water!!!

İ do not agree on this one. We are forgetting that Allah is able to make miracles happen.

Let me give you one example.
We all know how humans reproduce...right? No need for explanation.
İt requires a male and a female having sexual intercourse. Then a human being develops in the womb of the female.
There is no other way...no reproduction is possible without the male. Science...even modern science is against it.
Conclusion: İsa as must have had a father right?
Wrong!
Although it is impossible that a human being can develop without the male...Allah is very well possible of making miracles happen...

The same could be the case with evolution...
Although science points towards evolution...that humans came from monkeys...Allah could have performed a one time miracle in the creation of Adam. He could have created Adam without (ape) parents. This still does not invalidate evolution. Humans are still made from clay...just like animals...
Do not forget that clay also contains water.
We just cannot exclude evolution. The fact that the Quran does not point towards it is not enough to exclude evolution.

[Scimitar]

İ do not agree on this one.

You've not understood my point then ;) I said I don't believe in Human Evolution. Period! please try to read a post properly before replying, thanks!

[keiv]

İ do not agree on this one. We are forgetting that Allah is able to make miracles happen.

Let me give you one example.
We all know how humans reproduce...right? No need for explanation.
İt requires a male and a female having sexual intercourse. Then a human being develops in the womb of the female.
There is no other way...no reproduction is possible without the male. Science...even modern science is against it.
Conclusion: İsa as must have had a father right?
Wrong!
Although it is impossible that a human being can develop without the male...Allah is very well possible of making miracles happen...

The same could be the case with evolution...
Although science points towards evolution...that humans came from monkeys...Allah could have performed a one time miracle in the creation of Adam. He could have created Adam without (ape) parents. This still does not invalidate evolution. Humans are still made from clay...just like animals...
Do not forget that clay also contains water.
We just cannot exclude evolution. The fact that the Quran does not point towards it is not enough to exclude evolution.

You've not understood my point then ;) I said I don't believe in Human Evolution. Period! please try to read a post properly before replying, thanks!

Her post is a little confusing. It sounds like she believes we did not evolve but states that evolution could still be possible.

[Scimitar]

Greetings,

That is definitely an attitude that should be encouraged.

In Islam, learning knowledge is encouraged - else we would not have had our golden age. Shame about the Mongol magogs doing away with all that. But that's another thread.

Quite possibly. Ibn Khaldun made some very important contributions to science, including his idea that humans developed from "the world of the monkeys". He is a long way from being the first to mention evolution, though. Anaximander of Miletus is the earliest I'm aware of, over a thousand years previously.

How entertaining are you? :)

Your opposition to human evolution (no matter how staunch or repugnant) does have a lot of evidence stacked against it.

Well, there are six theories all vying for superiority in understanding evolutionary process - and science by its very nature is always changing as new information comes to light, take for example the theory of phlogiston, and how that turned out to be nitrogen - as Suboor explains in the OP!

Sometimes, faulty theories work up to a point, until they are disproven completely and replaced by better theories, which in turn can also be disproven ;) that's science. So I don't put much faith in "human evolution" as I have seen no providential information for it.

Whereas the evidence supporting the existence of Adam is...?

Not required to be explained by science. But human memory. Most traditions in the world, from South America to China and all inbetween believe in the "prime pairing" who were created by God!!!

It's an axiomatic belief which doesn't require proving with science, same way one cannot prove with science that you know for a fact that you had a great great great great great grandmother - we accept we had one because it's an axiom! No science required!

Not to mention Occams Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the best. Over complicating things without merit is akin to focusing on the finger and losing all the heavenly glory - to quote Bruce Lee lol, but he made a solid point as an atheist (the irony isn't lost on me lol)

Is it? Anaximander's teacher, Thales of Miletus said the same thing.

And Muslims believe that every nation was sent Prophets and Messengers ;)

And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], "Worship Allah and avoid Taghut." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers.

We are indebted to the Muslims of the Islamic Golden Age for preserving this knowledge of ancient Greek science, and I highly recommend that everyone learn about it!

Peace

Indian mathematics and sciences, Chinese medicine and sciences, African medicine sciences, etc etc etc - all because Allah encourages the Muslim to seek knowledge which "benefits"!!!

We agree!

peace

[Ümit]

You've not understood my point then ;) I said I don't believe in Human Evolution. Period! please try to read a post properly before replying, thanks!

No, you obviously did not read my post properly buddy.
My point was this:
İsa as came to this world through the same reproduction process like all humans. The only difference was the miracle that he did not have a father.

İn the same way humans may have been developed through the same evolution process like all the animals...(some apes evolving to a point tthat they almost were human) then a miracle happens and Adam as comes to the world without parents.

The whole evolution process would then still be valid...even for humans...except for that one miracle.
İn other words... That one miracle does not have to invalidate the evolution process for humans...just like the birth of İsa as does not invalidate the human reproduction process as we know it.

İ am not saying that is the way it happened...İ am saying it is plausible.
please try to read a post properly before replying, thanks!

- - - Updated - - -

You've not understood my point then ;) I said I don't believe in Human Evolution. Period! please try to read a post properly before replying, thanks!

No, you obviously did not read my post properly buddy.
My point was this:
İsa as came to this world through the same reproduction process like all humans. The only difference was the miracle that he did not have a father.

İn the same way humans may have been developed through the same evolution process like all the animals...(some apes evolving to a point tthat they almost were human) then a miracle happens and Adam as comes to the world without parents.

The whole evolution process would then still be valid...even for humans...except for that one miracle.
İn other words... That one miracle does not have to invalidate the evolution process for humans...just like the birth of İsa as does not invalidate the human reproduction process as we know it.

İ am not saying that is the way it happened...İ am saying it is plausible.
please try to read a post properly before replying, thanks!

[Scimitar]

No, you obviously did not read my post properly buddy.!

We're talking about evolution and its compatibility with islam - not miraculous births ;)

Peace

[Ümit]

Her post is a little confusing. It sounds like she believes we did not evolve but states that evolution could still be possible.

One does not believe in science in the same way one believes in God. The word "believing" carries a different load.
Science is just an approximation of the reality. İt is a tool for us to try to understand the mechanisms behind Allahs creation. We try to think out theories and formulas how stuff works. İf a formula corresponds good enough with reality...then we believe the formula is correct...but that is a different meaning of believing...untill the next guy comes along and thinks out a better, more accurate formula...so it is constantly in development.
This whole evolution idea may be proven ridiculous
After some years after developing new insights or when we made other discoveries...but right now it just seems very plausible...
So again...İ believe in Allah and his creation...İ do not believe in evolution...but İ do support it because it does not contradict with İslam and it is the best tool we have to explain the different lifeforms on Earth.

- - - Updated - - -

Her post is a little confusing. It sounds like she believes we did not evolve but states that evolution could still be possible.

One does not believe in science in the same way one believes in God. The word "believing" carries a different load.
Science is just an approximation of the reality. İt is a tool for us to try to understand the mechanisms behind Allahs creation. We try to think out theories and formulas how stuff works. İf a formula corresponds good enough with reality...then we believe the formula is correct...but that is a different meaning of believing...untill the next guy comes along and thinks out a better, more accurate formula...so it is constantly in development.
This whole evolution idea may be proven ridiculous
After some years after developing new insights or when we made other discoveries...but right now it just seems very plausible...
So again...İ believe in Allah and his creation...İ do not believe in evolution...but İ do support it because it does not contradict with İslam and it is the best tool we have to explain the different lifeforms on Earth.

- - - Updated - - -

We're talking about evolution and its compatibility with islam - not miraculous births ;)

Peace

You either still did not get the point what we are talking about or you are refusing to look at this issue from a different viewpoint than you are used to.
Either way...never mind...

[Scimitar]

You either still did not get the point what we are talking about or you are refusing to look at this issue from a different viewpoint than you are used to.
Either way...never mind...

Start a topic on the miraculous nature of Jesus pbuh's birth, and you will be in your element.

Here? this thread is about the compatibility of evolution with Muslims! You're way off the mark. And beating dead horses!

@czigibson, i'll be around for another few hours if you wish to continue !

[Zafran]

We are indebted to the Muslims of the Islamic Golden Age for preserving this knowledge of ancient Greek science, and I highly recommend that everyone learn about it!

Nobody in history was preserving knowledge and the Muslims of the past( like any other civilization) certainly were not preserving Greek, Hindu, Chinese or Persian knowledge - there was huge debate over it just like there is now over modern science, enlightenment ideas and post modernism.

[Scimitar]

Nobody in history was preserving knowledge and the Muslims of the past( like any other civilization) certainly were not preserving Greek, Hindu, Chinese or Persian knowledge - there was huge debate over it just like there is now over modern science and enlightenment ideas.

Well we certainly didn’t invent the sciences lol, but we did attempt to perfect them - and a good job we did do at that!

[keiv]

İn the same way humans may have been developed through the same evolution process like all the animals...(some apes evolving to a point tthat they almost were human) then a miracle happens and Adam as comes to the world without parents.

The whole evolution process would then still be valid...even for humans...except for that one miracle.
İn other words... That one miracle does not have to invalidate the evolution process for humans...just like the birth of İsa as does not invalidate the human reproduction process as we know it.

Are you saying its possible that apes were still in the process of evolving to humans while Adam and Eve (pbut) were on the Earth? So humans and evolving apes were living together?

In that case, some of us are descendants of evolved apes while others are descendants of Adam and Eve (pbut)?

Or are you saying that evolution stopped once Adam (pbuh) was created? If that's the case, what happened to the evolved apes who were almost human like?

For the record, I'm just trying to understand what you are saying.

[Zafran]

We're talking about evolution and its compatibility with islam - not miraculous births ;)

Peace

The nature of Adam (as) and Isa has have everything to do with evolutionary biology - its one of the Reasons Muslims would object to it. Of course the great flaw of any empirical science is its assumption of naturalism, so the question comes is how do Muslims view science is it scientific realism or instrumentalism?

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[Scimitar]

The nature of Adam (as) and Isa has have everything to do with evolutionary biology - its one of the Reasons Muslims would object to it. Of course the great flaw of any empirical science is its assumption of naturalism, so the question comes is how do Muslims view science is it scientific realism or instrumentalism

doesnt matter to an atheist - he doesn’t believe in the “miraculous birth of Jesus” so moot point bro!

i’d rather attempt to understand czigibsons position without giving him appeals to what he would consider the appeal to miracle.

It wouldnt serve a purpose to use arguments he can not follow the logic to due to his disbelief!

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For the record, I'm just trying to understand what you are saying.

Good luck with that lol

[Zafran]

Well we certainly didn’t invent the sciences lol, but we did attempt to perfect them - and a good job we did do at that!

We didn't do anything - it was the Muslims of the past that did it all. The history of Islam and the development of empirical sciences is a lot more complex then our romanticized view of it.

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[Scimitar]

We didn't do anything - it was the Muslims of the past that did it all. The history of Islam and the development of empirical sciences is a lot more complex then our romanticized view of it.

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Im not in disagreement - and by “we” I mean the Muslims who fomented and founded the golden age period!!! Not you and I lol

[Zafran]

doesnt matter to an atheist - he doesn’t believe in the “miraculous birth of Jesus” so moot point bro!

Of course his epistemological and metaphysical understanding of reality is different to the Islamic understanding of it.

i’d rather attempt to understand czigibsons position without giving him appeals to what he would consider the appeal to miracle.

Hes an advocate of naturalism, so God, Miracles, prophet hood and Revelation are not in the vocabulary.

It wouldnt serve a purpose to use arguments he can not follow the logic to due to his disbelief!

The thread is called "Is Evolution compatible with Islam" - Muslims themselves have variety of views.

[Scimitar]

Of course his epistemological and metaphysical understanding of reality is different to the Islamic understanding of it.

It's a little "tunnel vision" I think

Hes an advocate of naturalism, so God, Miracles, prophet hood and Revelation are not in the vocabulary.

Yes, this is the point I was making :) So when the sister interjected with her reply to something I wrote to bro czigibson, I was a little baffled at her reasoning. If, she had instead, formed a post devoid of quote posting me, I could have entertained her more truly, however, jumping into the conversation by way of straw man is a little "bull in china shop" for my liking. I like things neat and tidy, not all over the place,

The thread is called "Is Evolution compatible with Islam" - Muslims themselves have variety of views.

They should attempt to be clear in their "views" then ;) and not use straw men to make points! Umie, had assumed my position without even clarifying what I was alluding to. This is bad practice ;)

[czgibson]

Greetings,

In Islam, learning knowledge is encouraged - else we would not have had our golden age. Shame about the Mongol magogs doing away with all that. But that's another thread.

Yes, the Qur'an encourages Muslims to seek knowledge. Does it specify or limit what kind of knowledge?

How entertaining are you? :)

I will leave the judgement on that question in your capable hands. :D

Sometimes, faulty theories work up to a point, until they are disproven completely and replaced by better theories, which in turn can also be disproven ;) that's science. So I don't put much faith in "human evolution" as I have seen no providential information for it.

I am aware of how science progresses. Your last sentence doesn't follow from the other things you've said. Evolution is the best theory we have right now to explain human development, and it will remain so until contradictory evidence or a new and better theory emerges.

Not required to be explained by science. But human memory. Most traditions in the world, from South America to China and all inbetween believe in the "prime pairing" who were created by God!!!

So? Does that mean it's true?

It's an axiomatic belief which doesn't require proving with science, same way one cannot prove with science that you know for a fact that you had a great great great great great grandmother - we accept we had one because it's an axiom! No science required!

Deductive reasoning is sufficient to prove you had a great great great great great grandmother; it is not enough to prove that all humans descended from a single mating pair.

Not to mention Occams Razor. The simplest explanation is usually the best. Over complicating things without merit is akin to focusing on the finger and losing all the heavenly glory - to quote Bruce Lee lol, but he made a solid point as an atheist (the irony isn't lost on me lol)

If you trust Occam's Razor, then forgive me for asking, but why do you believe in God? Instead of admitting that you don't know how the universe came to be, you assert the existence of a being more complex than anything that has ever been observed. That couldn't be much more contrary to Occam's Razor, surely?

And Muslims believe that every nation was sent Prophets and Messengers ;)

Are you now going to claim that Thales of Miletus was an Islamic prophet? Because, if so, you know I'm going to ask you for evidence of that.

Indian mathematics and sciences, Chinese medicine and sciences, African medicine sciences, etc etc etc - all because Allah encourages the Muslim to seek knowledge which "benefits"!!!

I'm not sure what your claim is here.

We agree!

Sometimes we do. I think in general I'm more inclined to find evidence for the assertions I make, however. You're excellent value, though, and your inquisitive nature is very beneficial for those who read you on the forum. Long may you run. :shade:

Peace

Greetings,

Her post is a little confusing. It sounds like she believes we did not evolve but states that evolution could still be possible.

I can see how the post makes sense on its own terms. I think the confusion comes from the fact that once you allow miracles, then anything is possible, whether it appears to makes sense or not.

Peace

Greetings,

We're talking about evolution and its compatibility with islam - not miraculous births ;)

Yes, and umie has just provided a perfect way of reconciling the two - as long as you believe in miracles.

Peace

[AabiruSabeel]

Does it specify or limit what kind of knowledge?

Why do you even ask that? Futile questions are not allowed.

Deductive reasoning is sufficient to prove you had a great great great great great grandmother; it is not enough to prove that all humans descended from a single mating pair.

It seems you have not done your homework. Recent scientific research has shown that all human beings descend from a common ancestral pair of a man and a woman, Adam :as: and Hawwa :as:.

See http://science.sciencemag.org/content/341/6145/562
and http://science.sciencemag.org/content/341/6145/465 ¹

Allah :swt: has already said that He has created us all from a single man and a woman.

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). [49:30]

There were no other human-like apes who later became humans. Whatever type of apes were there at the time of Adam :as:, you can also find those types of apes present today. Have they all evolved into humans? If that was the case, you wouldn't find any apes present today.

Surely, Allah :swt: will show them all the signs and these scientists will have eventually realize the truth which was already revealed by Allah.

Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? [Fussilat: 53]



--
1. For anyone wondering what the correction is, it is a minor spelling correction and it says there on that page:

“Y weigh in again on modern humans” by R. L. Cann (2 August, p. 465). In the figure, Denisovians should have been spelled Denisovans. The HTML and PDF versions online have been corrected.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Why do you even ask that? Futile questions are not allowed.

I asked because I was curious to know the answer. Why do you think it's a futile question?

It seems you have not done your homework. Recent scientific research has shown that all human beings descend from a common ancestral pair of a man and a woman, Adam :as: and Hawwa :as:.

You are talking about genetic Adam and mitochondrial Eve. They are quite different from the Adam and Eve mentioned in scripture. For one thing, they were certainly not the first humans to exist. Also, most researchers believe they existed thousands of years apart. You have managed to find two papers that suggest they may have coexisted, give or take thirty thousand years or so. This could well be true, but more research and evidence is needed before this idea becomes a part of mainstream science. It will also take a lot more than deductive reasoning, which was my original claim that you were supposed to be responding to.

There were no other human-like apes who later became humans.

If you can provide compelling evidence for this claim, you might win a Nobel prize. It would change modern biology fundamentally.

Whatever type of apes were there at the time of Adam :as:, you can also find those types of apes present today. Have they all evolved into humans? If that was the case, you wouldn't find any apes present today.

I can only invite you to learn more about the topic.

Peace

[AabiruSabeel]

You are talking about genetic Adam and mitochondrial Eve. They are quite different from the Adam and Eve mentioned in scripture. For one thing, they were certainly not the first humans to exist. Also, most researchers believe they existed thousands of years apart. You have managed to find two papers that suggest they may have coexisted, give or take thirty thousand years or so. This could well be true, but more research and evidence is needed before this idea becomes a part of mainstream science. It will also take a lot more than deductive reasoning, which was my original claim that you were supposed to be responding to.

If you can provide compelling evidence for this claim, you might win a Nobel prize. It would change modern biology fundamentally.

See this thread again: How science fails to explain complete truth

Science is still somewhere in between and it has not arrived at the final result until now. Whereas we already have the final answer revealed to us in the Qur'an that Adam and Hawwa were the first human beings on earth.

The papers that I have referred are from the Science journal, which is one of top journals in the world. Only the best researches get published there after undergoing a thorough review process. A language and arts teacher wouldn't know what it takes to publish a paper in a scientific journal.

You can continue to undermine our responses as much as you want, but one thing is clear, ultimately all of them will arrive at the same conclusion which is already revealed by Allah :swt:.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

See this thread again: How science fails to explain complete truth

Science is still somewhere in between and it has not arrived at the final result until now. Whereas we already have the final answer revealed to us in the Qur'an that Adam and Hawwa were the first human beings on earth.

The papers that I have referred are from the Science journal, which is one of top journals in the world. Only the best researches get published there after undergoing a thorough review process. A language and arts teacher wouldn't know what it takes to publish a paper in a scientific journal.

You can continue to undermine our responses as much as you want, but one thing is clear, ultimately all of them will arrive at the same conclusion which is already revealed by Allah :swt:.

You haven't got a clue what you're talking about, regarding science or my knowledge of it. Trying to educate you on the topic is proving difficult, so I shall leave it to others to respond to you if you choose to make any further contributions to this discussion.

Peace

[BurningHeart]

See this thread again: How science fails to explain complete truth

Science is still somewhere in between and it has not arrived at the final result until now. Whereas we already have the final answer revealed to us in the Qur'an that Adam and Hawwa were the first human beings on earth.

The papers that I have referred are from the Science journal, which is one of top journals in the world. Only the best researches get published there after undergoing a thorough review process. A language and arts teacher wouldn't know what it takes to publish a paper in a scientific journal.

You can continue to undermine our responses as much as you want, but one thing is clear, ultimately all of them will arrive at the same conclusion which is already revealed by Allah :swt:.

It is certainly not easy to publish a paper on reputed journal. And what is stared is point on.

One of our papers has been long overdue to be published. I noticed it requires some cross examination by external people who are expert in that field. For example this paper was about the study of detection of carbon fiber composites via NDT.

The in charge of journal, Dr Tom Hanks, has still not gone through the review process completely to allow it to be published.

What I really do find interesting is that there were works published within the journal that were convincing in writings and display but the data collected and its discussion was contradictory to the conclusion. Either it is was our short coming of not understanding the papers correctly or it was so that these papers were given a free ticket to be published?

It did raise questions, if you have connections in the field of research you can get free tickets for your work to be published in good journals. While quality works of other people can be neglected.

There is a possibility of bias of a certain mentality to be endorsed within the papers being published in a journal by the cross examiners.

If anyone does not believes it, I invite them to enter any field of research and witness it for yourself.

I have personally given up trying to study further on topics such as evolution. Because there is a sense of bias and blind faith involved. Certain mentality does seems to be forced to pass through to allow certain papers to be published. There are always opening towards it.

I do find intriguing how people, especially those that propagate evolution, quote scientists on their findings. It does raises a question isn't this blind faith? We have not seen the practical data that was being retrieved in the experiments but they are just displayed. No one can confirm if there is honesty involved in the process or not.

Another point is people quickly jump to read the conclusions of the journals instead of analysing the data and its analysis critical. Which means questioning it, very few do tho.

Al hamdulillah it is a blessing that Islam gives the final ultimate answers to the questions. Science has a long way to go to reach the ultimate point, and who knows we may all be dead by then the thing is people who will always look upon science will not be able to reach the final conclusion by the time they will pass away.

[keiv]

Yes, the Qur'an encourages Muslims to seek knowledge. Does it specify or limit what kind of knowledge?

Seeking knowledge is what leads people to turn to Islam. Its those who limit themselves (whether through bias, ignorance, or even arrogance) that are holding themselves back.

I can see how the post makes sense on its own terms. I think the confusion comes from the fact that once you allow miracles, then anything is possible, whether it appears to makes sense or not.

Peace

Good, maybe you can help explain what she was saying because I certainly cannot see humans in their present form living amongst evolving human-like-apes. Also, do you think using theories, which we know can change at any time, is any better at explaining things? Because anything can be possible with that as well without making sense. State a theory that a particle smaller than the dot on this screen started everything we know to exist today 14 billion years ago all on its own.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Seeking knowledge is what leads people to turn to Islam. Its those who limit themselves (whether through bias, ignorance, or even arrogance) that are holding themselves back.

You didn't answer my question, but I agree (if I'm understanding you correctly), placing limits on the search for knowledge is not good in general.

Good, maybe you can help explain what she was saying because I certainly cannot see humans in their present form living amongst evolving human-like-apes.

I interpret umie as saying that she believes in evolution among plants and animals because the evidence for it is overwhelming, but she doesn't believe in human evolution and accounts for it by asserting the miraculous creation of Adam.

Also, do you think using theories, which we know can change at any time, is any better at explaining things?

Better than what?

You have scientific theories to thank for the technology that enables us to have this conversation now.

Because anything can be possible with that as well without making sense.

Anything is possible apart from the things we know to be impossible.

State a theory that a particle smaller than the dot on this screen started everything we know to exist today 14 billion years ago all on its own.

The Big Bang theory. It's incomplete, but it's the best theory we have, and it's improving all the time.

Peace

[Ümit]

Start a topic on the miraculous nature of Jesus pbuh's birth, and you will be in your element.

Here? this thread is about the compatibility of evolution with Muslims! You're way off the mark. And beating dead horses!

@czigibson, i'll be around for another few hours if you wish to continue !

It is not about Jesus pbuh's birth. that was just an example explaining how miracles does not have to change natural processes like reproduction process or evolution.

but again, nevermind...you are starting to get rude, trying to be funny by saying I should start another topic...that bothers me.

If you are not willing to look at this issue from other viewpoints than say it...you do not have to mock me.

Are you saying its possible that apes were still in the process of evolving to humans while Adam and Eve (pbut) were on the Earth? So humans and evolving apes were living together?

In that case, some of us are descendants of evolved apes while others are descendants of Adam and Eve (pbut)?

Or are you saying that evolution stopped once Adam (pbuh) was created? If that's the case, what happened to the evolved apes who were almost human like?

For the record, I'm just trying to understand what you are saying.

[/QUOTE]
No, that would be kufr. all humans are descendants of Adam and Eve. evolution of apes until Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve being "descendants of apes" with a miracle so that they could come to earth without a birth. after that, only descendants of Adam and Eve.

What happened to evolving apes who existed shortly before Adam and Eve? I don't know. maybe they got extinct?

Again, I am not trying claim that evolution took place...I am saying that it is plausible. I do not have all the questions to this.

[Ümit]

Greetings,

I interpret umie as saying that she believes in evolution among plants and animals because the evidence for it is overwhelming, but she doesn't believe in human evolution and accounts for it by asserting the miraculous creation of Adam.

Peace

I do not believe in evolution in the same way as I believe in Allah. Evolution is a theory..which changes through time with new discoveries. But it is very plausible and it is the best explanation we have, so I do support evolution.

you also do not believe in the laws of Newton or archimedes. yes, these laws are pretty accurate at we came this far with our science and technology thanks to them...but nevertheless that still is an approximation of reality at some point.

I also support human evolution to some point...we are not a complete new species...we still have too much in common with other animals...but I do think Allah interfered in this process by the creation of Adam pbuh without a birth. like giving a little final push in the right direction.

And I believe the human evolution is still going on. for example the first humans lived for 1000 years...like Adam as and Noah as and some other prophets if I am not wrong.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you czgibson;

Evolution is the best theory we have right now to explain human development,

I agree with you, I think it is a wonderful understanding as to how life adjusts to its surroundings.

I still believe that God created all the species according to their kind. Once they have been created, I think the theory of evolution provides a good scientific explanation as to how species survive together.

The theory suffers in my opinion, when it is used to extrapolate back a few billion years to single cell life. I have tried to keep an open mind as to how the eye and the skeleton may have evolved, but the explanations I have read do not seem convincing. I picked out the eye and the skeleton, because they are essentially mechanical objects, and I have some understanding about how they work.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[keiv]

Greetings,


You didn't answer my question, but I agree (if I'm understanding you correctly), placing limits on the search for knowledge is not good in general.

To answer your question, no.

Better than what?
You have scientific theories to thank for the technology that enables us to have this conversation now.
Anything is possible apart from the things we know to be impossible.
The Big Bang theory. It's incomplete, but it's the best theory we have, and it's improving all the time.

Peace

Is the theory of evolution better at explaining our (human) beginning than the creationists (Islamic in this case) explanation? Depends on who you ask right? With the theory of evolution (not absolute), anything is possible whether it makes sense or not. In terms of what I said about theories, that was meant for the theory of evolution, specifically our beginnings is where I was getting at. From an Islamic point of view, we view our creation as absolute being that we were born from Adam and Eve. From a scientific point of view, the theory is that our ancestors were ape like creatures millions of years ago and before them, they were a different species and so on and so forth all leading to the very beginning. I don't know if science will ever catch up, but I do agree with you in the fact that it's getting better

No, that would be kufr. all humans are descendants of Adam and Eve. evolution of apes until Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve being "descendants of apes" with a miracle so that they could come to earth without a birth. after that, only descendants of Adam and Eve.

What happened to evolving apes who existed shortly before Adam and Eve? I don't know. maybe they got extinct?

Again, I am not trying claim that evolution took place...I am saying that it is plausible. I do not have all the questions to this.

I do not believe in evolution in the same way as I believe in Allah. Evolution is a theory..which changes through time with new discoveries. But it is very plausible and it is the best explanation we have, so I do support evolution.

you also do not believe in the laws of Newton or archimedes. yes, these laws are pretty accurate at we came this far with our science and technology thanks to them...but nevertheless that still is an approximation of reality at some point.

I also support human evolution to some point...we are not a complete new species...we still have too much in common with other animals...but I do think Allah interfered in this process by the creation of Adam pbuh without a birth. like giving a little final push in the right direction.

And I believe the human evolution is still going on. for example the first humans lived for 1000 years...like Adam as and Noah as and some other prophets if I am not wrong.

This?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=xFXxJva_99c

[Ümit]

To answer your question, no.




Is the theory of evolution better at explaining our (human) beginning than the creationists (Islamic in this case) explanation? Depends on who you ask right? With the theory of evolution (not absolute), anything is possible whether it makes sense or not. In terms of what I said about theories, that was meant for the theory of evolution, specifically our beginnings is where I was getting at. From an Islamic point of view, we view our creation as absolute being that we were born from Adam and Eve. From a scientific point of view, the theory is that our ancestors were ape like creatures millions of years ago and before them, they were a different species and so on and so forth all leading to the very beginning. I don't know if science will ever catch up, but I do agree with you in the fact that it's getting better





This?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=xFXxJva_99c

Where did you find this? This is just what I am talking about...he is also talking about a miracle...he is even giving the same example of Jesus being born without a father.

Vallah I did not see this video before. thanks for sharing!!

[keiv]

It’s funny because I thought that you may have watched it. I think I was trying to better familiarize myself with different timelines within the evolution theory and I somehow came across that.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

To answer your question, no.

I am glad to hear that the Qur'an places no restrictions on what kind of knowledge may be sought.

Is the theory of evolution better at explaining our (human) beginning than the creationists (Islamic in this case) explanation?

Yes, much better. It has masses of supporting evidence behind it, whereas creationism has none.

Depends on who you ask right?

Maybe, but the answer will usually correlate directly with education level.

With the theory of evolution (not absolute), anything is possible whether it makes sense or not.

This is a bizarre assertion. What exactly do you mean by "anything is possible"? Do you think it's possible to find a modern chimp fossil in a Precambrian layer of rock?

In terms of what I said about theories, that was meant for the theory of evolution, specifically our beginnings is where I was getting at.

You said:

Also, do you think using theories, which we know can change at any time, is any better at explaining things?

As if theories are necessarily vague and purely speculative. I'm simply pointing out that theories have in many cases helped to produce tangible results that we all benefit from. Yes, theories can change - when the evidence changes.

Peace

[Ümit]

It’s funny because I thought that you may have watched it. I think I was trying to better familiarize myself with different timelines within the evolution theory and I somehow came across that.

No I really didn't see that video.
I did not think about where Adam as got the other 21 chromosomes from...
I just thought it was a good example of how a natural process doesn't have to change when Allah makes one exception.

The birth of Jesus as does not change the natural human reproduction process. this requires a man and a woman having sexual intercourse with each other...and it was like that before the birth of Jesus as and did not change after his birth. So Jesus as was a one time exception on this rule.

Likewise is (or at least seems to be) evolution. the existence of Adam as on Earth without a birth was a one time exception on the natural evolution process. this evolution process did not change after Adam as came to earth, nor did it stop.

So my conclusion still is like: evolution is still very plausible.

[keiv]

Greetings,



I am glad to hear that the Qur'an places no restrictions on what kind of knowledge may be sought.

I can't imagine that a religion which limits or restricts people from seeking knowledge while also encouraging it, would attract so many people to it (hence, my first answer). In terms of specifics, I'd say Allah commands Muslims to seek knowledge on Islam first and foremost for the sake of better understanding our own beliefs. In terms of limitations though, I think the video in the OP along with other individuals similar to Subboor, and of course historical Muslim figures, should clear up or answer any questions one may have in terms of the religion holding people back.

Yes, much better. It has masses of supporting evidence behind it, whereas creationism has none.
Maybe, but the answer will usually correlate directly with education level.
This is a bizarre assertion. What exactly do you mean by "anything is possible"? Do you think it's possible to find a modern chimp fossil in a Precambrian layer of rock?
As if theories are necessarily vague and purely speculative. I'm simply pointing out that theories have in many cases helped to produce tangible results that we all benefit from. Yes, theories can change - when the evidence changes.

Peace

The claim is that, based on the evidence we have now, it took us millions of years from first walking to being able to start fires, but only a matter of thousands of years from starting fires to building skyscrapers, flying planes, and playing on iPads and we have climate change to mostly thank for this rapid change in our cycle of evolution. The assertion that anything is possible means that what we think we know today about human evolution based on what's considered evidence, could easily change with further advancement in technology. Isn't that what is limiting us afterall? Or it could be religion as some would like to think.

Sorry for not using bigger words or citing scientific research studies in my posts. I'm just a low educated creationist whose trying to better understand the world I live in.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you czgibson;

Yes, much better. It has masses of supporting evidence behind it, whereas creationism has none.

Ok, I agree that there is probably no real scientific evidence to support creationism. In the same way there is no scientific evidence as to how life started in the first place.

I also believe there is a certain amount of dishonesty in the claims made to back up the ToE. Take Nilsson Pelger's explanation as to how many generations it might take for the eye to evolve. Their conclusion seems to assert that this is how it happened all in the blink of an eye. But where is the real evidence it happened this way?

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I can't imagine that a religion which limits or restricts people from seeking knowledge while also encouraging it, would attract so many people to it (hence, my first answer).

Yes, it would be a deeply unsound state of affairs.

In terms of limitations though, I think the video in the OP along with other individuals similar to Subboor, and of course historical Muslim figures, should clear up or answer any questions one may have in terms of the religion holding people back.

I find that looking at the history of religion produces far more questions than it answers, particularly when it comes to the area of scientific discovery.

The claim is that, based on the evidence we have now, it took us millions of years from first walking to being able to start fires, but only a matter of thousands of years from starting fires to building skyscrapers, flying planes, and playing on iPads and we have climate change to mostly thank for this rapid change in our cycle of evolution.

The climate change clause is vague, but the rest all sounds reasonable. Why do you bring it up?

The assertion that anything is possible means that what we think we know today about human evolution based on what's considered evidence, could easily change with further advancement in technology.

Yes, theories can change as new and better evidence arrives. This is a strength, not a weakness. It's also different from saying "anything is possible".

Imagine a physicist who said "I haven't changed my mind about anything in physics since 1900". Do you think he/she would be a good physicist or a bad physicist?

Sorry for not using bigger words or citing scientific research studies in my posts.

Neither of these things necessarily has a bearing on the truth or falsity of what you say.

I'm just a low educated creationist whose trying to better understand the world I live in.

Why not educate yourself then? You will then be less likely to believe things without evidence.

Peace

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Ok, I agree that there is probably no real scientific evidence to support creationism.

You are quite correct.

In the same way there is no scientific evidence as to how life started in the first place.

There is evidence but we don't yet have a full explanation of how life began. There is no shame in saying "we don't know".

I also believe there is a certain amount of dishonesty in the claims made to back up the ToE. Take Nilsson Pelger's explanation as to how many generations it might take for the eye to evolve. Their conclusion seems to assert that this is how it happened all in the blink of an eye. But where is the real evidence it happened this way?

Nilsson and Pelger's paper on the eye is speculative and based on deductive reasoning. It shows an evolutionary pathway that might account for how eyes evolved. What is dishonest about it?

Peace

[AabiruSabeel]

Allah :swt: says,

Say, [O Muhammad], "Travel through the land and observe how He began creation. Then Allah will produce the final creation. Indeed Allah , over all things, is competent." [Al-Ankabut: 20]

In the same way there is no scientific evidence as to how life started in the first place.

There is evidence but we don't yet have a full explanation of how life began. There is no shame in saying "we don't know".

For some of the things, saying "we don't know" constitutes kufr - disbelief. For example, the creation of the first human being, Adam :as:. Allah :swt: already informed us about him that He has created Adam :as: with His hands. If anyone says that he doesn't know from where the first human being came about, or how he evolved from apes, then that is kufr in itself. Allah :swt: says,

[ Allah ] said, "O Iblees, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My hands? Were you arrogant [then], or were you [already] among the haughty?" [Saad: 75]

Then later Allah :swt: sent him down from paradise to earth. Read the whole passage here in Surah Al-A'raaf: http://legacy.quran.com/7/10-30

[Scimitar]

i wish i had more time to post on forums. Between work and filming/editing, i'm finding it difficult to make time.

Allah is All Knowing, Most Wise!

[Aaqib]

I have been struggling with this topic for a while now since we are being taught of this in biology. InshaAllah Allah keeps me in Islam and not allow me to be taken away from Islam.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you czgibson;

There is evidence but we don't yet have a full explanation of how life began. There is no shame in saying "we don't know".

Don't know seems a fair answer.

Nilsson and Pelger's paper on the eye is speculative and based on deductive reasoning. It shows an evolutionary pathway that might account for how eyes evolved.

As you say, the Nilsson Pelger paper on the eye is speculative and there seems no real evidence that it happened this way.

What is dishonest about it?

But you then see people like Dawkins going round schools demonstrating this evolutionary path, and giving the impression it is a done deal.

In the spirit of searching for God;
Eric

[AabiruSabeel]

I think these articles by Daniel Haqiqatjou were not shared here. They give a good insight into this subject.

Part 1: http://islamandevolution.com/is-evol...le-with-islam/

Part 2: http://islamandevolution.com/is-evol...-islam-part-2/

Is Evolution Compatible with Islam? (Part 1) - Islam and Evolution Can Muslims accept Evolution? What is at stake if they do or don't? What does the Quran say about human origins? Are Muslims creationists?...

[Ümit]

I think these articles by Daniel Haqiqatjou were not shared here. They give a good insight into this subject.

Part 1: http://islamandevolution.com/is-evol...le-with-islam/

Part 2: http://islamandevolution.com/is-evol...-islam-part-2/

Is Evolution Compatible with Islam? (Part 1) - Islam and Evolution Can Muslims accept Evolution? What is at stake if they do or don't? What does the Quran say about human origins? Are Muslims creationists?...

No, I do not agree with Haqiqatjou. According to his logic Evolution contradicts with religion. However, with the same logic the existence of Jesus pbuh iq questionable because that too contradicts with science as well.
Yet, (if he is a Muslim) he believes in the contradiction that Jesus existed and had no father, which biologically is impossible because Jesus must have gotten his Y-chromosomes from someone.
His mistake is that this seems contradicting, and normally it is indeed contradicting, but Allah is capable of making miracles happen.
The birth of Jesus and the creation of Adam was a miracle, a one time only exception on the natural evolution process and human reproduction process.

[AabiruSabeel]

No, I do not agree with Haqiqatjou. According to his logic Evolution contradicts with religion. However, with the same logic the existence of Jesus pbuh iq questionable because that too contradicts with science as well.
Yet, (if he is a Muslim) he believes in the contradiction that Jesus existed and had no father, which biologically is impossible because Jesus must have gotten his Y-chromosomes from someone.
His mistake is that this seems contradicting, and normally it is indeed contradicting, but Allah is capable of making miracles happen.
The birth of Jesus and the creation of Adam was a miracle, a one time only exception on the natural evolution process and human reproduction process.

Yes, he is a Muslim. I think you might have misunderstood his conclusion. Please read the second part as well to understand what he is actually trying to say.

http://islamandevolution.com/is-evol...-islam-part-2/

[Ümit]

Sorry, I missed the second part. I will read it now. Thank you very much

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