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innocent
03-27-2018, 07:33 PM
Salam
Please can someone answer a question about wali. If a girls father refuses to consider any potential match because he wants her to marry his relative from back home how will she ever get married. I understand that only the father can be wali.
The father is saying if she doesn't get married to his choice he refuses to be involved in it.
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cinnamonrolls1
03-27-2018, 07:45 PM
Well the woman decides who to marry at the end of the day
Reply

innocent
03-27-2018, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Well the woman decides who to marry at the end of the day
But she can't get married without her wali
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-27-2018, 08:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by innocent
Salam
Please can someone answer a question about wali. If a girls father refuses to consider any potential match because he wants her to marry his relative from back home how will she ever get married. I understand that only the father can be wali.
The father is saying if she doesn't get married to his choice he refuses to be involved in it.
https://islamqa.info/en/95405

Her wali repeatedly refused suitors; can she arrange her own marriage? - islamqa.info
I am 31 years old teacher. I have been a teacher since 1996. In the end of 1997 a colleague proposed to meand I asked him to wait until my older sister gets mar...
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innocent
03-27-2018, 10:00 PM
So it passes to the fathers father or brother who want exactly the same thing as the wali. And they are in a different country anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

In the meantime she will be getting older and losing precious time.
Reply

Zafran
03-27-2018, 10:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by innocent
Salam
Please can someone answer a question about wali. If a girls father refuses to consider any potential match because he wants her to marry his relative from back home how will she ever get married. I understand that only the father can be wali.
The father is saying if she doesn't get married to his choice he refuses to be involved in it.
In the hanifi Madhab you dont need a Wali. If your not then you'll have to find a wali to get marriad - other family members, Imam??
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-27-2018, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
In the hanifi Madhab you dont need a Wali. If your not then you'll have to find a wali to get marriad - other family members, Imam??
Brother, I thought that hanafi ruling was for only divorced wives who want to remarry?

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format_quote Originally Posted by innocent
So it passes to the fathers father or brother who want exactly the same thing as the wali. And they are in a different country anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

In the meantime she will be getting older and losing precious time.
It is considered zulm (oppression) for her wali to be stubborn at the expense of her happiness. If the father's side are all like that then she has to go to an Islamic judge (Qadi) for relief.
Reply

Zafran
03-27-2018, 10:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Brother, I thought that hanafi ruling was for only divorced wives who want to remarry?
salaam

Nope, this is a well known opinion that differs with the other madhabs which require a wali.

peace
Reply

Zzz_
03-27-2018, 11:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by innocent
So it passes to the fathers father or brother who want exactly the same thing as the wali. And they are in a different country anyway.

In the meantime she will be getting older and losing precious time.
If the wali isn't acting in the best interest of the girl then that mantle passes onto the next of kin. If none are available or can't act in her best interest then it goes to the khalifah or the imam.
Reply

azc
03-28-2018, 02:27 AM
https://hanafilegalrulings.blogspot....ermission.html

Reply

*charisma*
03-28-2018, 06:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
In the hanifi Madhab you dont need a Wali. If your not then you'll have to find a wali to get marriad - other family members, Imam??
In the hanafi madhab, marrying without a wali is considered an absolute last resort and would need to be considered by an islamic scholar. I wouldn't suggest any girl get married without her family's permission and without sincerely putting in the effort to change their minds and put forth her case to them first. If that doesn't work then she should seek other help from her extended family (brothers, uncles, male grandparents) even if she does not think they will agree with her. When these options have been exhausted, then she can seek help from a knowledgable member of the islamic community (imam, scholar, counselor, etc.), and perhaps they can persuade her father to change his mind, IF NOT they may have other means of helping her. So I would not make the very last resort a first option.

format_quote Originally Posted by innocent
Salam
Please can someone answer a question about wali. If a girls father refuses to consider any potential match because he wants her to marry his relative from back home how will she ever get married. I understand that only the father can be wali.
The father is saying if she doesn't get married to his choice he refuses to be involved in it.
You have uncles and grandparents you can turn to. Even if you think they are of the same opinion, you should still put the effort in asking for their help and continue to speak to your father about the subject. Maybe discuss your feelings to your mother and she may be able to soften his heart towards your situation. Don't assume that your male family members will have the same opinion as your father. I also strongly suggest to make du'a and pray istikhara.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-28-2018, 08:19 PM
I wonder if the other madhabs allow similar positions as the hanafi madhab. ( i honestly dont know all that much about the madhabs tbh- like their rulings and the like- i was just taught by my family)
Reply

Zzz_
03-29-2018, 12:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
I wonder if the other madhabs allow similar positions as the hanafi madhab. ( i honestly dont know all that much about the madhabs tbh- like their rulings and the like- i was just taught by my family)
No, the majority scholarly view is that you need a wali to get married. Imam Abu Haneefah said: “If the hadeeth is saheeh then that is my madhhab.” And had he access to the hadith stating there is no marriage without a wali, he too would have made the same ruling. Not only that but all four imams said if you find something in the Sunnah contrary to what I said then ignore what I said, and yet lot of these people who follow these madhabs blindly, continue to follow it.


Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “There is no marriage without a wali.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (2085), al-Tirmidhi (1101) and Ibn Majaah (1881) from the hadeeth of Abu Moosa al-Ash’ari; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage except with a wali and two witnesses of good character.” Narrated by al-Bayhaqi from the hadeeth of ‘Imraan and ‘Aa’ishah; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ 7557.

And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Any woman who gets married without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid. But if the marriage is consummated then the mahr is hers because she has allowed him to be intimate with her. If they dispute, then the ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian.” Narrated by Ahmad (24417), Abu Dawood (2083) and al-Tirmidhi (1102); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ no. 2709.


----------



The Hanafi madhhab is one of the four well-known madhhabs, and it was the first of the fiqhi madhhabs. It was said that “The people are dependent on Abu Haneefah with regard to fiqh.” The origin of the Hanafi madhhab and all the other madhhabs is that these four imams – I mean Abu Haneefah, Maalik, al-Shaafa’i and Ahmad – made the effort to understand the evidence of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and they issued fatwas to people based on the evidence that had reached them. Then the followers of these imams took their fatwas and conveyed them and issued other fatwas based on them, and derived principles from them, and they set out guidelines for understanding the texts and reaching conclusions. Thus the fiqhi madhhab was formed, and the Hanafi, Shaafa’i, Maaliki and Hanbali madhhabs, and other madhhabs such as those of al-Awzaa’i and Sufyaan, but these latter madhhabs were not destined to continue.

If it is said: If the four madhhabs are based on the Qur’aan and Sunnah, why do we find differences of opinion between them on matters of fiqh?

The answer is: Each imam issued fatwas on the basis of the evidence that reached him. A hadeeth may have reached Imam Maalik on the basis of which he issued fatwas, that did not reach Abu Haneefah, so he issued fatwas stating something different, and vice versa. Similarly a hadeeth may have reached Abu Haneefah with a saheeh isnaad so he issued fatwas on that basis, and the same hadeeth may have reached Imam al-Shaafa’i with a different isnaad that was da’eef (weak), so he did not issue fatwas based on it, or he may have issued a fatwa saying something that went against the hadeeth based on the conclusion he reached. This is why differences arose among the scholars, but ultimately the point of reference is the Qur’aan and Sunnah.

In fact, Imam Abu Haneefah and other imams followed the texts of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, even if some of their fatwas were not based on that, the reason being that all four imams stated that if a hadeeth was saheeh, then that was their madhhab, that is what they followed, on what they based their fatwas and from what they derived their evidence.

Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “I am only human, sometimes I make mistakes and sometimes I get things right. Look at my opinion and whatever is in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, take it, and whatever is not in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, ignore it.” And he said: “There is no one after the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) whose words cannot be taken or left, apart from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).”

Imam al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “There is no one who will not be unaware of some of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Whatever I say or whatever guidelines I establish, if there is a report from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which is different to what I said, then what matters is what the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, and that is my opinion.”

Imam Ahmad said: “Do not follow me blindly and do not follow Maalik or al-Shaafa’i or al-Awzaa’i or al-Thawri blindly. Learn from where they learned.” And he said: “The opinion of al-Awzaa’i and the opinion of Maalik and the opinion of Abu Haneefah are all mere conjecture and it is all the same to me. Rather evidence is to be found in the reports – i.e., in the shar’i evidence.”

https://islamqa.info/en/95405
Reply

Zafran
03-29-2018, 01:19 AM
salaam

No The Hanifi Madhabs position is that a women can marry without wali - that isn't just a opinion of Abu Hanifi its the opinion of 1000s of hanifi Jurists. The same applies with other Madhabs depending on the methodology. There is no one madhab they all have there differences and countless scholars have defended them. There are also many differences within a madhabs as many scholars differd with each other.
Reply

azc
03-29-2018, 02:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
I wonder if the other madhabs allow similar positions as the hanafi madhab. ( i honestly dont know all that much about the madhabs tbh- like their rulings and the like- i was just taught by my family)
1)Allah Most High says: “When you divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their waiting period (idda), do not prevent them from marrying their (former) husbands, if they mutually agree on equitable terms.” (Surah al-Baqarah, V: 232)

In this verse, Allah Most High attributes the conducting of marriage to women which is an indication that they are able to marry themselves without the permission and approval of their Wali. Moreover, the guardians are instructed not to interfere by preventing them from marrying their former husbands.

2)Allah Most High says: “If any of you dies and leaves widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days: When they have fulfilled their term (of idda), there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves (marry themselves off) in a just and reasonable manner.” (Surah al-Baqarah, V: 234)

In this verse also, there is clear indication that women have full rights of marrying themselves and do not require the approval of their guardian or Wali.

3)Sayyiduna Abdullah ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “A non-married woman (virgin or non-virgin) has more right in managing her own affairs (i.e. marriage etc) than her guardian, and a virgin’s consent must be sought concerning herself, and her silence implies her consent.” (Sahih Muslim, no: 4121)

In this Hadith, the term Ayyim means a woman who has no husband (man la zawja lah) and includes both virgin and non-virgin women. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is clearly stating that she is more rightful than her guardian in managing her own affairs in terms of marriage and other similar things.

4)Sayyiduna Ali ibn Abi Talib (Allah be pleased with him) would strongly advise against marrying without the guardian’s approval, but if someone was to go ahead and marry, he would consider their marriage to be valid. (Kanz al-Ummal, no: 45775)

As for the Hadiths indicating that marriage without the guardian’s approval is completely invalid, Imam Zafar Ahmad Uthmani (Allah have mercy on him) states in his colossal encyclopaedic work, I’la al-Sunan, that Hadiths such as “Any woman who marries without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, invalid, invalid” (related by Ibn Hibban, Tirmidhi and others, and Tirmidhi considered it to be hasan) and “There is no marriage without the (permission of a) guardian” (related by Hakim and Abu Dawud) are to be understood in light of the other Hadiths that point to the validity of such a marriage. As such, the generality in these two Hadiths is restricted to pubescent (non-baligha) and slave women, whilst adult and free women are to be excluded from this general ruling due to the evidences favouring the validity of their marriages without the guardian’s approval.

As such, the meaning of the Messenger of Allah’s statement “There is no marriage without the (permission of a) guardian” would be “There is no complete and blessed marriage without the permission of the guardian” but the marriage in of itself is valid provided the woman marries a person who is a legal match to her. Likewise, the meaning of the Hadith “Any woman who marries without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, invalid, invalid” will mean “her marriage is invalid in some situations” and that situation is when she marries herself off to a person who is not considered a legal match to her.

Moreover, the two reporters of these two Hadiths, Sayyida A’isha and Imam Zuhri (Allah be pleased with them) have both opposed the ruling given in them. Sayyida A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) married off Hafsa bint Abdirrahman without the approval of her guardian, whilst Imam Zuhri is reported to have said: “Any woman who marries herself without her guardian’s approval, her marriage is valid”. It is an accepted principle that if the reporter of a narration himself or herself contradicts that which is being reported, then his/her reported Hadith should not be taken at face value, but rather understood in light of the reporter’s action........

https://hanafilegalrulings.blogspot....ermission.html
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cinnamonrolls1
03-29-2018, 11:42 AM
Im aware of walis beinb mandatory etc, but like how the hanafi madhab states its permissable if the wali isnt cooperating etc, i was just wondering if other madhabs were as flexible
Reply

OmAbdullah
03-29-2018, 12:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

No The Hanifi Madhabs position is that a women can marry without wali - that isn't just a opinion of Abu Hanifi its the opinion of 1000s of hanifi Jurists. The same applies with other Madhabs depending on the methodology. There is no one madhab they all have there differences and countless scholars have defended them. There are also many differences within a madhabs as many scholars differd with each other.

Not correct.

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format_quote Originally Posted by Zzz_
No, the majority scholarly view is that you need a wali to get married. Imam Abu Haneefah said: “If the hadeeth is saheeh then that is my madhhab.” And had he access to the hadith stating there is no marriage without a wali, he too would have made the same ruling. Not only that but all four imams said if you find something in the Sunnah contrary to what I said then ignore what I said, and yet lot of these people who follow these madhabs blindly, continue to follow it.


Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “There is no marriage without a wali.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (2085), al-Tirmidhi (1101) and Ibn Majaah (1881) from the hadeeth of Abu Moosa al-Ash’ari; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage except with a wali and two witnesses of good character.” Narrated by al-Bayhaqi from the hadeeth of ‘Imraan and ‘Aa’ishah; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ 7557.

And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Any woman who gets married without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid. But if the marriage is consummated then the mahr is hers because she has allowed him to be intimate with her. If they dispute, then the ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian.” Narrated by Ahmad (24417), Abu Dawood (2083) and al-Tirmidhi (1102); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ no. 2709.


----------



The Hanafi madhhab is one of the four well-known madhhabs, and it was the first of the fiqhi madhhabs. It was said that “The people are dependent on Abu Haneefah with regard to fiqh.” The origin of the Hanafi madhhab and all the other madhhabs is that these four imams – I mean Abu Haneefah, Maalik, al-Shaafa’i and Ahmad – made the effort to understand the evidence of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and they issued fatwas to people based on the evidence that had reached them. Then the followers of these imams took their fatwas and conveyed them and issued other fatwas based on them, and derived principles from them, and they set out guidelines for understanding the texts and reaching conclusions. Thus the fiqhi madhhab was formed, and the Hanafi, Shaafa’i, Maaliki and Hanbali madhhabs, and other madhhabs such as those of al-Awzaa’i and Sufyaan, but these latter madhhabs were not destined to continue.

If it is said: If the four madhhabs are based on the Qur’aan and Sunnah, why do we find differences of opinion between them on matters of fiqh?

The answer is: Each imam issued fatwas on the basis of the evidence that reached him. A hadeeth may have reached Imam Maalik on the basis of which he issued fatwas, that did not reach Abu Haneefah, so he issued fatwas stating something different, and vice versa. Similarly a hadeeth may have reached Abu Haneefah with a saheeh isnaad so he issued fatwas on that basis, and the same hadeeth may have reached Imam al-Shaafa’i with a different isnaad that was da’eef (weak), so he did not issue fatwas based on it, or he may have issued a fatwa saying something that went against the hadeeth based on the conclusion he reached. This is why differences arose among the scholars, but ultimately the point of reference is the Qur’aan and Sunnah.

In fact, Imam Abu Haneefah and other imams followed the texts of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, even if some of their fatwas were not based on that, the reason being that all four imams stated that if a hadeeth was saheeh, then that was their madhhab, that is what they followed, on what they based their fatwas and from what they derived their evidence.

Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “I am only human, sometimes I make mistakes and sometimes I get things right. Look at my opinion and whatever is in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, take it, and whatever is not in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, ignore it.” And he said: “There is no one after the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) whose words cannot be taken or left, apart from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).”

Imam al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “There is no one who will not be unaware of some of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Whatever I say or whatever guidelines I establish, if there is a report from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which is different to what I said, then what matters is what the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, and that is my opinion.”

Imam Ahmad said: “Do not follow me blindly and do not follow Maalik or al-Shaafa’i or al-Awzaa’i or al-Thawri blindly. Learn from where they learned.” And he said: “The opinion of al-Awzaa’i and the opinion of Maalik and the opinion of Abu Haneefah are all mere conjecture and it is all the same to me. Rather evidence is to be found in the reports – i.e., in the shar’i evidence.”

https://islamqa.info/en/95405

Masha-Allah, this is very true and correct statement. May Allah bless you for conveying the Truth.


Those imams gave the same advice to follow what is in accordance with the Holy Quraan and the Sunnah. But the exaggerations came from the people of the
later
times.
Reply

azc
03-29-2018, 12:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Im aware of walis beinb mandatory etc, but like how the hanafi madhab states its permissable if the wali isnt cooperating etc, i was just wondering if other madhabs were as flexible
Imam Shafi'i rh and Imam Ahmad b hambal rh are strict whereas imam Malik rh have been reported of having 2 opinions:

Qadhi Abu’l Waleed Muhammad bin Ahmed Ibn Rushd Maliki rh, in Bidayatul Mujtahid vol.2 pg. 6-7, writes:

“Imam Malik rh, in Ashhab’s narration from him, said that there is no marriage without a guardian and that it (guardianship) is a condition of validity.

. . . .The fourth opinion is Malik’s rh, as derived from ibn al-Qasim’s narration that its stipulation as a demand is Sunnah, but not Fardh. This is because it is narrated from him that he used to view inheritance among parties married without a guardian (as valid), and permitted an unchaste woman to appoint a man as her guardian for her marriage, and he held as recommended that a deflowered woman present a guardian who could contract on her behalf. Thus, guardianship for him is one of the complementary demands and not a condition for validity, as against the statement of Malik’s rh disciples from Baghdad, who consider it a condition of validity and not that of perfection. The reason for their disagreement is the absence of a verse or tradition that is apparent, not to say explicit, about the stipulation of guardianship as a condition of marriage.”
Reply

OmAbdullah
03-29-2018, 12:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*
In the hanafi madhab, marrying without a wali is considered an absolute last resort and would need to be considered by an islamic scholar. I wouldn't suggest any girl get married without her family's permission and without sincerely putting in the effort to change their minds and put forth her case to them first. If that doesn't work then she should seek other help from her extended family (brothers, uncles, male grandparents) even if she does not think they will agree with her. When these options have been exhausted, then she can seek help from a knowledgable member of the islamic community (imam, scholar, counselor, etc.), and perhaps they can persuade her father to change his mind, IF NOT they may have other means of helping her. So I would not make the very last resort a first option.



You have uncles and grandparents you can turn to. Even if you think they are of the same opinion, you should still put the effort in asking for their help and continue to speak to your father about the subject. Maybe discuss your feelings to your mother and she may be able to soften his heart towards your situation. Don't assume that your male family members will have the same opinion as your father. I also strongly suggest to make du'a and pray istikhara.

There happened a case of a girl at the time of the Prophet salla Allaaho alayhi wa sallam. her father did her nikah /or engagement to a man without her consent. She complained to the
Prophet salla Allaaho alayhi wa sallam. He salla Allaaho alayhi wa sallam nullified it and then asked the girl as to what was her objection against the man proposed by her father. She said that she had no objection against him but she only wanted to prove the right of a girl concerning her marriage partner.


There are fathers who reject every good proposal because they want to keep an earning daughter unmarried. Such fathers actually make the earning daughters object of sacrifice for the benefit of their sons. There are also fathers and mothers who will reject a proposal (liked by their daughter) only because they are the owners of property and they want her husband to be from their relatives so that her share in the property will go to a relative. All of such actions are not Islamic. According to a hadeeth in Abu Dawood (given in the post of Zzz above), she can go to the Court and make the Muslim Judge / Imam/ Ruler her Wali. The Hadeeth says: "If they dispute then the Ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian". Now here is a case of dispute therefore she can take a Muslim ruler or Judge to be her Wali. BUT she has to take a Wali. Marriage without a Wali is not valid. This Command is for the benefit of girls. As man is strong. He is not given a chance to play and take benefit of the weak status of a girl. So in comparison to the strong man, girl is strengthened by a male Wali.
Reply

azc
03-29-2018, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by OmAbdullah
Not correct.

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Masha-Allah, this is very true and correct statement. May Allah bless you for conveying the Truth.


Those imams gave the same advice to follow what is in accordance with the Holy Quraan and the Sunnah. But the exaggerations came from the people of the
later
times.
Indeed, they were their students who themselves were mujtahid like imam abu yusuf, imam Muhammad, imam yahya, imam ibnul qasim, imam abdullah b ahmad etc, us, the random people, were not advised.


Commenting on these statements, Imam an-Nawawi (rahmatullah alayh) says:

"This which Imam ash-Shaafi has said does not mean that everyone who sees a sahih Hadith should say "This is the mathhab of ash-Shaafi," thus practicing on the zaahir (text/external or apparent meaning) of the Haditli.

This most certainly applies to only such a person who has the rank of ijtihad in the mathhab. It is a condition that he overwhelmingly believes that Imam ash-Shaafi was unaware of this Hadith or he was unaware of its authenticity. And this is possible only after having made a research of all the books of ash-Shaafi and similar other books of the Ashaab of ash-Shaafi, those who take (knowledge) from him and others similar to these (books). This is indeed a difficult condition (to fulfill). Few are there who measure up to this (standard).
What we have explained has been made conditional because Imam ash-Shaafi had abandoned acting on the zaahir (text) of many Ahadith, which he say and knew. However, by him was established proof for criticism in the Hadith or its abrogation or it's specific circumstance or its interpretation, etc. Hence, he was constrained to leave aside the hadith." (Ilaaus Sunan, Vol. 2, page 225)

Shaykh Abu Amr (rahmatullah alayh) said:

"It is not easy to act according to the aparrent (zahir) text of what Imam ash-Shaafi said. It is not lawful for (even) every Faqeeh (qualified Aalim who has deep insight) to act indepently with that which opines to be proof from the Hadith." (Ilaus Sunan, Vol. 2, page 225)

It also appears in Ilaaus Sunan of Muhaddith Zafar Ahmad Uthmani (rahmatullah alayh):

"Imam Sha'raani has also narrated it (i.e. the statement "When the authenticity of a Hadith is established, it is my mathhab."), attributing it to the four Imams. It is not hidden (from understanding) that this is for the one who has the ability (insight and qualifications) in the Nusoos and the knowledge of its clear laws and abrogations." Volume 2, page 226.

Discussing this statement in his treatise, Shaykh Yusuf bin Ismaail Nibhaani says

"Verily, the statement: "When the Hadith has been authenticated, then it is my mathhab" has been narrated from each of these four Imams who were free from personal opinion. The audience to whom this statement ("When the Hadith is Sahih, it is my mathhab.") was directed, is on his (the imam's) Ashaab (the Fuqaha of his Mathhab) who were the great and illustrious Aimmah among the great 'Ulama of his mathhab, those who where the Ahl at-Tarjeeh (a high category of 'Ulama). All of them who were the haafizeen of the Hadith of Rasulullah (s.a.s.) were fully aware of the daleels (proofs) of all the mathhabs These are the ones whom the Imam (of the mathhab) had directed his statement: "When the Hadith is Sahih, it is my mathhab" Verily, they (these great Fuqaha) are able to reconcile between the Hadith from which the Imam had derived proof, and the latest Hadith which was established as authentic after the Imam. They (these illustrious Fuqaha) can see which of the two Hadiths is more authentic, stronger and which of the two Hadiths is the later one so that the later one can be the Naasikh (abrogator) for the earlier one." (Hujjatullah alal Aalameen)
Reply

Zafran
03-30-2018, 12:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by OmAbdullah
Not correct.
Its correct and its well known, It funny how so many cant believe that madhabs actually have real difference of opinion, which I'm sorry to tell you they do and most of the scholars in the respective schools defend the view through Quran and sunnah.

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format_quote Originally Posted by OmAbdullah
Those imams gave the same advice to follow what is in accordance with the Holy Quraan and the Sunnah. But the exaggerations came from the people of the
later
times.
That is not true at all - plenty of scholars early or late have had differences of opinion and justified there views through Quran/sunnah based on axiomatic principles. They differed on many fiqh Issues.
Reply

OmAbdullah
04-02-2018, 02:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
Indeed, they were their students who themselves were mujtahid like imam abu yusuf, imam Muhammad, imam yahya, imam ibnul qasim, imam abdullah b ahmad etc, us, the random people, were not advised.


Commenting on these statements, Imam an-Nawawi (rahmatullah alayh) says:

"This which Imam ash-Shaafi has said does not mean that everyone who sees a sahih Hadith should say "This is the mathhab of ash-Shaafi," thus practicing on the zaahir (text/external or apparent meaning) of the Haditli.

This most certainly applies to only such a person who has the rank of ijtihad in the mathhab. It is a condition that he overwhelmingly believes that Imam ash-Shaafi was unaware of this Hadith or he was unaware of its authenticity. And this is possible only after having made a research of all the books of ash-Shaafi and similar other books of the Ashaab of ash-Shaafi, those who take (knowledge) from him and others similar to these (books). This is indeed a difficult condition (to fulfill). Few are there who measure up to this (standard).
What we have explained has been made conditional because Imam ash-Shaafi had abandoned acting on the zaahir (text) of many Ahadith, which he say and knew. However, by him was established proof for criticism in the Hadith or its abrogation or it's specific circumstance or its interpretation, etc. Hence, he was constrained to leave aside the hadith." (Ilaaus Sunan, Vol. 2, page 225)

Shaykh Abu Amr (rahmatullah alayh) said:

"It is not easy to act according to the aparrent (zahir) text of what Imam ash-Shaafi said. It is not lawful for (even) every Faqeeh (qualified Aalim who has deep insight) to act indepently with that which opines to be proof from the Hadith." (Ilaus Sunan, Vol. 2, page 225)

It also appears in Ilaaus Sunan of Muhaddith Zafar Ahmad Uthmani (rahmatullah alayh):

"Imam Sha'raani has also narrated it (i.e. the statement "When the authenticity of a Hadith is established, it is my mathhab."), attributing it to the four Imams. It is not hidden (from understanding) that this is for the one who has the ability (insight and qualifications) in the Nusoos and the knowledge of its clear laws and abrogations." Volume 2, page 226.

Discussing this statement in his treatise, Shaykh Yusuf bin Ismaail Nibhaani says

"Verily, the statement: "When the Hadith has been authenticated, then it is my mathhab" has been narrated from each of these four Imams who were free from personal opinion. The audience to whom this statement ("When the Hadith is Sahih, it is my mathhab.") was directed, is on his (the imam's) Ashaab (the Fuqaha of his Mathhab) who were the great and illustrious Aimmah among the great 'Ulama of his mathhab, those who where the Ahl at-Tarjeeh (a high category of 'Ulama). All of them who were the haafizeen of the Hadith of Rasulullah (s.a.s.) were fully aware of the daleels (proofs) of all the mathhabs These are the ones whom the Imam (of the mathhab) had directed his statement: "When the Hadith is Sahih, it is my mathhab" Verily, they (these great Fuqaha) are able to reconcile between the Hadith from which the Imam had derived proof, and the latest Hadith which was established as authentic after the Imam. They (these illustrious Fuqaha) can see which of the two Hadiths is more authentic, stronger and which of the two Hadiths is the later one so that the later one can be the Naasikh (abrogator) for the earlier one." (Hujjatullah alal Aalameen)

In fact to be very sincere and straight forward, all such statements increase confusion and complications so much so that many people may run away from the understanding of the Deen. When I tried to understand the Holy Quraan through the tafaseer of great scholars, it became very easy to understand ahaadeeth and Islam as whole. Then we must also consider the basic principles. The basic principles are that in the grave everyone of this Ummah will be asked about Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam only. Moreover, according to a Hadeeth Shareef, everyone will be forgiven by the shafaa'a (intercession) of Muhammad
salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam
except those who will be failed by the Holy Quraan. This clearly means that we must try to get the shafaa'a of the TWO i.e.
shafaa'a (intercession) of Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam
and Shafaa'a of the Holy Quraan. So if we fear punishment in grave and in Hell then we must become close friends with these TWO sources of Islam.


Remember that according to a Hadeeth shareef, on the Day of Judgment (at some stage as there will be many stages for us to pass through),
Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam
will be standing near the Hawz Al-kowsar /Al-Kowthar waiting for his ummah. A group of his sahaabah will appear coming and then a block will come between them and they will disappear. The Prophet salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam will say, " They were my sahaabah!" He will be replied, " You don't know what changes they made after you!"


Everyone of us must be as careful and worried for his own safety from Hell as he/she will be on the day of Judgment. At that time everyone will say "nafsee, nafsee" ("myself, myself"). Keeping that hard situation in mind, we are not supposed to fight for others when even we don't know for sure what they did or/and who brought the changes. We only must try to find the 100 % true source for our guidance and that is the Holy Quraan. After understanding the Holy Quraan, we must check the matan (content) of ahadeeth in the light of the Holy Quraan, believing that Muhammad
salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam
didn't say or do anything against the Book of Allah.


For myself, I testify that I am a Muslimah (a suni Muslimah) only. I only belong to the Muslim Ummah of
Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam
. I don't belong to any partition, madh-hab, differences which happened after
Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam
and for which there is no proof in the Quraan and Hadeeth. I respect all true sincere scholars of Islam but I will not fight for any changes made in the Deen and then attributed to the sincere scholars. I am against all such changes and among all that forest of confusion, I can get very clear guidance from the Holy Quraan. The same I wish for all sincere Muslims who are worried about the Accounting in the Here-After.

Reply

Misbah-Abd
04-02-2018, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by OmAbdullah


Remember that according to a Hadeeth shareef, on the Day of Judgment (at some stage as there will be many stages for us to pass through),
Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam
will be standing near the Hawz Al-kowsar /Al-Kowthar waiting for his ummah. A group of his sahaabah will appear coming and then a block will come between them and they will disappear. The Prophet salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam will say, " They were my sahaabah!" He will be replied, " You don't know what changes they made after you!"

Can you give me the source of that hadith please?
Reply

azc
04-02-2018, 04:50 PM
@OmAbdullah :

Sister, it's o.k. If your learn this deen by self-study.

But you are missing the basics. Your logic is wrong that what did not exist during prophetic era isn't acceptable. Then All the Islamic sciences will go in vain.

I don't belong to any partition, madh-hab, differences which happened after
Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallamand for which there is no proof in the Quraan and Hadeeth.
The same is applied to all books of ahadith, tafaseer of Quran, usool e fiqh, usool e hadith, usool of tafseer, books of sair o maghazeeh, ilm of kalam etc. All these were compiled or invented by fallible people.

We have no evidence to trust all these specific personalities the different Islamic sciences are attributed to...?

But we trust all these Islamic sciences and specific personalities without any proof from Quran and sunnah.
Reply

Zafran
04-02-2018, 10:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by OmAbdullah
For claiming such point, you must understand the Holy Quraan at first so that you, yourself, have strong ground to stand upon. You think, " you are absolutely free
to say or write anything to defeat others". But this is wrong thinking. The angels on you sides are making a record of everything and you will be judged according to that record. Remember the verse 18 of Surah Qaaf.


Surah Qaaf verse 18 (translation):


18. Man does not utter any word except that with him is an observer prepared [to record]
Indeed.........But the point stands about the Hanifi madhab and wali. Its a famous and well known difference.
Reply

azc
04-03-2018, 02:28 AM
@OmAbdullah :
The Prophet salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam will say, " They were my sahaabah!" He will be replied, " You don't know what changes they made after you!"
sahaba = companions of prophet s.a.w ....?
Reply

OmAbdullah
04-05-2018, 04:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
@OmAbdullah: sahaba = companions of prophet s.a.w ....?

Yes, this is a hadeeth. You should search for it.

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format_quote Originally Posted by azc
@OmAbdullah:

Sister, it's o.k. If your learn this deen by self-study.

But you are missing the basics. Your logic is wrong that what did not exist during prophetic era isn't acceptable. Then All the Islamic sciences will go in vain.


The same is applied to all books of ahadith, tafaseer of Quran, usool e fiqh, usool e hadith, usool of tafseer, books of sair o maghazeeh, ilm of kalam etc. All these were compiled or invented by fallible people.

We have no evidence to trust all these specific personalities the different Islamic sciences are attributed to...?

But we trust all these Islamic sciences and specific personalities without any proof from Quran and sunnah.


The Holy Quraan is a very comprehensive Book. It is miraculous. Ahaadeeth, tafaseer and Islamic sciences are all found in the Holy Quraan. Of course, for us Muslims, only that hadeeth, tafseer and /or science is acceptable which doesn't go against the Quraan.


It
is true that I had started understanding the Holy Quraan at my own, in my student life. Since then I was always in contact with the Holy Quraan. Later I found a chance to get admission in an Islamic University. Then, by the grace of Allah, only due to the knowledge of the Holy Quraan, my level was such that I used to argue with and advise my teachers. My sincere teachers always accepted my argument. That was due to the Miraculous Quraan. And my score in the exams used to be very high. All is due to the Great Book of Allah, all praise is due for Allah alone. I always encourage both Muslims and non-Muslims to understand the Holy Quraan so that they don't cry and regret when they see the angels of death.


See, Allah has made the Holy Quraan a proof of the Prophet-hood of Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wasallam to all future generations. That is because the Holy Quraan has the answers to all questions raised about religion in any branch of knowledge. This is wonderful but is true because the Holy Quraan is a Book of All-Mighty Allah!

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format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Indeed.........But the point stands about the Hanifi madhab and wali. Its a famous and well known difference.

Brother your answer is not correct. my sincere advice to you is to understand the Holy Quraan so that at the time of death you don't bite your hands for the wrong arguments.
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Misbah-Abd
04-05-2018, 09:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by OmAbdullah
Yes, this is a hadeeth. You should search for it.

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I cannot find that hadith online during my search. Why don't you just tell us what hadith book you got that from?
Reply

azc
04-05-2018, 10:27 AM
@OmAbdullah :

only that hadeeth, tafseer and /or science is acceptable which doesn't go against the Quraan.
Do you think your quoted hadith about sahaba ikram ra is against the quran or not...?
Ahaadeeth, tafaseer and Islamic sciences are all found in the Holy Quraan.
What the Quran say about wali...?
Reply

Zafran
04-06-2018, 12:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by OmAbdullah
Brother your answer is not correct. my sincere advice to you is to understand the Holy Quraan so that at the time of death you don't bite your hands for the wrong arguments.
Its correct.
Reply

OmAbdullah
04-06-2018, 04:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
@OmAbdullah:



Do you think your quoted hadith about sahaba ikram ra is against the quran or not...?

What the Quran say about wali...?

This Hadeeth is not against the Holy Quraan. Even many other ahaadeeth support this hadeeth.

The hadeeth about wali is not against the Holy Quraan. Even our logic and wisdom strongly supports this hadeeth. If you want proof from me for both of these statements, then I am ready to give the proof but I need time for it as it needs long discussion and I am very busy now.

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format_quote Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
I cannot find that hadith online during my search. Why don't you just tell us what hadith book you got that from?
I am sad that at present I have no hadeeth book with me and have no time to search on line. I remember this hadeeth very well from my past study. I may have read it in a tafseer of the Holy Quraan. Many ahaadeeth I come across in the Tafseer and at that time I and any such reader can understand the relation of Hadeeth with the verses of the Holy Quraan. Therefore I always advise the Muslim brothers and sisters to be in close contact with the understanding of the Holy Quraan from good tafseer Books.
Reply

OmAbdullah
04-06-2018, 06:32 AM
@azc


I think only one verse i.e. verse 34 of surah Al-Nisaa (An-Nisaa) and its explanatory notes 56 and 57 are enough to answer your question regarding Wali. You can see it at tafheem.net (then go to "towards understanding Quraan").

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format_quote Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
I cannot find that hadith online during my search. Why don't you just tell us what hadith book you got that from?



Volume 9, Book 88, Number 173:
Narrated 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force where upon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.'"
(Sahihal-Bukhari)
************************************************** ****************************

This hadeeth as given on the internet, is changed a little. In fact the hadeeth that I had read in the past and that was more acceptable to logic said that a block will come between them. That means the groups of the followers and companions will be turned away from the path of the Al-Kawthar Spring from far away, they will not reach the Spring. The above hadeeth is wronged by the words that they will be brought to him (salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam) (near the Spring) and then will be forcefully pulled away.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
04-06-2018, 09:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by OmAbdullah
@azc


I think only one verse i.e. verse 34 of surah Al-Nisaa (An-Nisaa) and its explanatory notes 56 and 57 are enough to answer your question regarding Wali. You can see it at tafheem.net (then go to "towards understanding Quraan").

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Volume 9, Book 88, Number 173:
Narrated 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force where upon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.'"
(Sahihal-Bukhari)
************************************************** ****************************

This hadeeth as given on the internet, is changed a little. In fact the hadeeth that I had read in the past and that was more acceptable to logic said that a block will come between them. That means the groups of the followers and companions will be turned away from the path of the Al-Kawthar Spring from far away, they will not reach the Spring. The above hadeeth is wronged by the words that they will be brought to him (salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam) (near the Spring) and then will be forcefully pulled away.
Now I have seen it online. If anybody has Fath Bari in Arabic by Ibn Hajr please provide an explanation to this hadith because I see shiite web pages using this hadith as evidence of the Sahabah r.a. going astray. And I don't believe the translated word "companions" means the Prophets s.a.a.w. companions he had when he was alive but rather his followers that he never met. And Allah Knows Best.
Reply

OmAbdullah
04-06-2018, 08:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Now I have seen it online. If anybody has Fath Bari in Arabic by Ibn Hajr please provide an explanation to this hadith because I see shiite web pages using this hadith as evidence of the Sahabah r.a. going astray. And I don't believe the translated word "companions" means the Prophets s.a.a.w. companions he had when he was alive but rather his followers that he never met. And Allah Knows Best.

Allah knows best. Shiyah race attack those sahaabah r A a who were even given the glad tidings of Jannah in their life. They hate Umar and Abu Bakar and Ai'shah radhi-ya-Allaho anhum. This hadeeth is not about such sahaabah rAa. I understand that all those Muslims who used to sit in the company of Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam were called his sahaabah although some of them were very close to him due to their great struggle in the service of Islam. If you search in the Holy Quraan you will find Allah's different statements about them. You can see such statements in the surah Al-Tawbah (At-Tawbah), surah Al-Ahzaab, and some other surahs. Insha-Allah, later I will try (if I get time) to post the exact verses about different categories of them.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
04-06-2018, 10:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by OmAbdullah
Allah knows best. Shiyah race attack those sahaabah r A a who were even given the glad tidings of Jannah in their life. They hate Umar and Abu Bakar and Ai'shah radhi-ya-Allaho anhum. This hadeeth is not about such sahaabah rAa. I understand that all those Muslims who used to sit in the company of Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam were called his sahaabah although some of them were very close to him due to their great struggle in the service of Islam. If you search in the Holy Quraan you will find Allah's different statements about them. You can see such statements in the surah Al-Tawbah (At-Tawbah), surah Al-Ahzaab, and some other surahs. Insha-Allah, later I will try (if I get time) to post the exact verses about different categories of them.
I know them. That hadith should of been translated as followers and not to be retained as Sahaba because of this misunderstanding that the Shia use to justify their deviation.
Reply

azc
04-07-2018, 06:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by OmAbdullah
This Hadeeth is not against the Holy Quraan. Even many other ahaadeeth support this hadeeth. The hadeeth about wali is not against the Holy Quraan. Even our logic and wisdom strongly supports this hadeeth. If you want proof from me for both of these statements, then I am ready to give the proof but I need time for it as it needs long discussion and I am very busy now.- - - Updated - - -I am sad that at present I have no hadeeth book with me and have no time to search on line. I remember this hadeeth very well from my past study. I may have read it in a tafseer of the Holy Quraan. Many ahaadeeth I come across in the Tafseer and at that time I and any such reader can understand the relation of Hadeeth with the verses of the Holy Quraan. Therefore I always advise the Muslim brothers and sisters to be in close contact with the understanding of the Holy Quraan from good tafseer Books.
O.k. sister. Take your time
Reply

OmAbdullah
04-07-2018, 02:06 PM
@azc for the position of Wali You can see the verse 34 of the Surah Al-Nisaa as I posted before. For the word "wali" you can see the verse 282 of the surah Al-Baqarah, it is the longest verse in the holy Quraan and gives orders about writing a lone and/or a business agreement in front of witnesses. The word wali comes as: ... "فليملل وليه بالعدل" ("then his wali should dictate it with justice").
Reply

azc
04-07-2018, 02:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by OmAbdullah
@azc for the position of Wali You can see the verse 34 of the Surah Al-Nisaa as I posted before. For the word "wali" you can see the verse 282 of the surah Al-Baqarah, it is the longest verse in the holy Quraan and gives orders about writing a lone and/or a business agreement in front of witnesses. The word wali comes as: ... "فليملل وليه بالعدل" ("then his wali should dictate it with justice").
Verse 34, surah al nisa is related to husband wife matter.

Verse 282 of al baqrah is related to dealings or transactions of money.

Both the verses have nothing to do with 'wali'
If you apply this ayat of al baqrah to woman then it should be applied to man too as generally this kind of transaction is done between men.
Reply

ChosenTCO
04-07-2018, 04:32 PM
All in all, every rule has an exception. This is no different.
It is not always that a sister can find herself a just wali where she can simply go to him and asked to be married off to another guy. Sometimes a girl cannot find either a just father as a wali nor a just imam (let alone an imam in the first place) to marry her off. So in such cases, what must a girl do? Find any muslim guy from her family or elsewhere to act as her wali? Because i myself think that such actions would take away value from these rulings in islam. But at the same times, with the increasing injustice from parents and people in authority in general, it has become increasingly difficult to follow the rulings of islam. Im sure these rulings would work perfectly fine if both parties did what they where meant to do. But this is not the case in these wretched times.
Reply

OmAbdullah
04-08-2018, 02:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
Verse 34, surah al nisa is related to husband wife matter.

Verse 282 of al baqrah is related to dealings or transactions of money.

Both the verses have nothing to do with 'wali'
If you apply this ayat of al baqrah to woman then it should be applied to man too as generally this kind of transaction is done between men.

The verse 34 of the surah Al-Nisaa is not limited to the superiority and responsibilities of a husband regarding his wife only. This verse is vastly applied for the superiority and responsibilities of Muslim men in general. A father is a ruler of the family according to this verse. So he is responsible for his daughters' wellbeing. The brothers are also responsible. Rather the men of the whole Muslim society are responsible. A Muslim shouldn't act as a frog at the bottom of a well so that if it is informed about the huge stores of water in oceans and rivers etc. it cannot accept this truth because it has not seen the upper earth. Quraan must be understood as a whole. Regarding one thing all or many texts about that thing must be considered. It is not possible for me or for any person to present this whole ocean-like light of the Holy Quraan within short time for the understanding of its rulings. I have taken many years to understand it. You also need its thorough study for long time. But at this level you should listen to those sincere advisers who have passed their lives in a struggle to understand the Holy Quraan.


Suppose you are a father having young daughters of marriage age or you are a mature adult brother having young sisters ready for marriage. Will you let them do their marriages at their own and then go into sufferings at the hands of unserious men who take benefit of the weakness of women and just play and pass time. If anyone deprives you of your authority to stand at the back of your daughter or sister then will you not apply the Command of Allah All-Mighty as given in the verse 34 of surah Al-Nisaa to protect the rights and status of your daughters or sisters as the case may be???
Reply

azc
04-08-2018, 04:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by OmAbdullah
The verse 34 of the surah Al-Nisaa is not limited to the superiority and responsibilities of a husband regarding his wife only. This verse is vastly applied for the superiority and responsibilities of Muslim men in general. A father is a ruler of the family according to this verse. So he is responsible for his daughters' wellbeing. The brothers are also responsible. Rather the men of the whole Muslim society are responsible. A Muslim shouldn't act as a frog at the bottom of a well so that if it is informed about the huge stores of water in oceans and rivers etc. it cannot accept this truth because it has not seen the upper earth. Quraan must be understood as a whole. Regarding one thing all or many texts about that thing must be considered. It is not possible for me or for any person to present this whole ocean-like light of the Holy Quraan within short time for the understanding of its rulings. I have taken many years to understand it. You also need its thorough study for long time. But at this level you should listen to those sincere advisers who have passed their lives in a struggle to understand the Holy Quraan.


Suppose you are a father having young daughters of marriage age or you are a mature adult brother having young sisters ready for marriage. Will you let them do their marriages at their own and then go into sufferings at the hands of unserious men who take benefit of the weakness of women and just play and pass time. If anyone deprives you of your authority to stand at the back of your daughter or sister then will you not apply the Command of Allah All-Mighty as given in the verse 34 of surah Al-Nisaa to protect the rights and status of your daughters or sisters as the case may be???
Surah 35:18
And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And if a heavily laden soul calls [another] to [carry some of] its load, nothing of it will be carried, even if he should be a close relative....

Surah 6:164
... And every soul earns not [blame] except against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another...

Surah 17:15
Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another...

Surah 39:7
If you disbelieve - indeed, Allah is Free from need of you. And He does not approve for His servants disbelief. And if you are grateful, He approves it for you; and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another...
Reply

OmAbdullah
04-09-2018, 03:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
Surah 35:18
And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And if a heavily laden soul calls [another] to [carry some of] its load, nothing of it will be carried, even if he should be a close relative....

Surah 6:164
... And every soul earns not [blame] except against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another...

Surah 17:15
Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another...

Surah 39:7
If you disbelieve - indeed, Allah is Free from need of you. And He does not approve for His servants disbelief. And if you are grateful, He approves it for you; and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another...

These verses are not applicable here.
Reply

OmAbdullah
04-09-2018, 04:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
@OmAbdullah:


What the Quran say about wali...?

وَلَا تَنۡكِحُوا الۡمُشۡرِكٰتِ حَتّٰى يُؤۡمِنَّ​ؕ وَلَاَمَةٌ مُّؤۡمِنَةٌ خَيۡرٌ مِّنۡ مُّشۡرِكَةٍ وَّلَوۡ اَعۡجَبَتۡكُمۡ​ۚ وَلَا تُنۡكِحُوا الۡمُشۡرِكِيۡنَ حَتّٰى يُؤۡمِنُوۡا ​ؕ وَلَعَبۡدٌ مُّؤۡمِنٌ خَيۡرٌ مِّنۡ مُّشۡرِكٍ وَّلَوۡ اَعۡجَبَكُمۡؕ اُولٰٓـئِكَ يَدۡعُوۡنَ اِلَى النَّارِ  ۖۚ وَاللّٰهُ يَدۡعُوۡٓا اِلَى الۡجَـنَّةِ وَالۡمَغۡفِرَةِ بِاِذۡنِهٖ​ۚ وَيُبَيِّنُ اٰيٰتِهٖ لِلنَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمۡ يَتَذَكَّرُوۡنَ ‏



(2:221) Marry not the women who associate others with Allah in His Divinity until they believe; for a believing slave-girl is better than a (free, respectable) woman who associates others with Allah in His Divinity, even though she might please you. Likewise, do not give your women in marriage to men who associate others with Allah in His Divinity until they believe; for a believing slave is better than a (free, respectable) man who associates others with Allah in His Divinity, even though he might please you. Such people call you towards the Fire,237 and Allah calls you, by His leave, towards Paradise and forgiveness; and He makes His injunctions clear to people so that they may take heed.
************************************************** ************************************************** ****


Please consider the verse given here (verse 221 of the surah Al-Baqarah). I have posted its Arabic text for the understanding of all readers. Here in the first part Allah gives order directly to the Muslim men to abstain from marriage with the idolater women. In the next part of the verse the Command comes about the believing women that they must abstain from marriage with the idolater (mushrik) men. BUT Allah Ta'alaa didn't give this Command directly to women. Why??????


Those who understand Arabic grammar can see that instead of giving the Command directly to women, Allah The All-Wise, used here passive voice "[wa laa tunkihul-mushrikeena hatta yu'minoo, and the idolaters men must not be given in marriage the (believing women) until they (the idolater men) believe]."


The answer to the above question i.e. "why didn't Allah give this Command directly to women?" the answer comes in the Hadeeth of Rasoolullah salla Allaho alayihi wa sallam which says that women cannot marry without a wali (and the wali is always a male Muslim). The authority of the male Muslims is confirmed by the verse 34 of the surah Al-Nisaa. The translation of that verse is here with some points of explanation:


(4:34) Men are the protec-tors and maintainers of women56 because Allah has made one of them excel over the other,57 and because they spend out of their possessions (to support them). Thus righteous women are obedient and guard the rights of men in their absence under Allah's protection.58 As for women of whom you fear rebellion, admonish them, and remain apart from them in beds, and beat them.59 Then if they obey you, do not seek ways to harm them. Allah is Exalted, Great.


Explanatory note 56 & 57:


56. A qawwam or qayyim is a person responsible for administering and supervising the affairs of either an individual or an organization, for protecting and safeguarding them and taking care of their needs.


57. The verb used here - a derivative of the root fdl - is not used to mean that some people have been invested with superior honour and dignity. Rather it means that God has endowed one of the sexes (i.e. the male sex) with certain qualities which He has not endowed the other sex with, at least not to an equal extent. Thus it is the male who is qualified to function as head of the family. The female has been so constituted that she should live under his care and protection.
************************************************** ***********************************************


I hope the things are clear now. Two points must be noted:


1. We must consider many texts of the Holy Quraan and Hadeeth (if needed) to answer a question. For e.g. here to answer the question about wali two verses i.e. verse 34 of surah Al-Nisaa and verse 221 of the surah Al-Baqarah are needed. Even there may be some other verses and ahadeeth regarding this matter.


2. The verses of the Holy Quraan are very vast and deep in meanings. For e.g. you can consider the vastness of the verse 34 of surah Al-Nisaa. And think about the verse 221 of surah Al-Baqarah: Its direct meaning is the Command to prohibit marriage with idolater men and women. But in its depth lies the meaning of the necessity of wali for the marriage of Muslim women.


Reply

azc
04-09-2018, 05:09 AM
@OmAbdullah :

1) Allah Most High says: “When you divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their waiting period (idda), do not prevent them from marrying their (former) husbands, if they mutually agree on equitable terms. ” (Surah al-Baqarah, V: 232)

In this verse, Allah Most High attributes the conducting of marriage to women which is an indication that they are able to marry themselves without the permission and approval of their Wali. Moreover, the guardians are instructed not to interfere by preventing them from marrying their former husbands.

2) Allah Most High says: “If any of you dies and leaves widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days: When they have fulfilled their term (of idda), there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves (marry themselves off) in a just and reasonable manner.” (Surah al-Baqarah, V: 234)

In this verse also, there is clear indication that women have full rights of marrying themselves and do not require the approval of their guardian or Wali.

3) Sayyiduna Abdullah ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “A non-married woman (virgin or non-virgin) has more right in managing her own affairs (i.e. marriage etc) than her guardian, and a virgin’s consent must be sought concerning herself, and her silence implies her consent.” (Sahih Muslim, no: 4121)

In this Hadith, the term Ayyim means a woman who has no husband (man la zawja lah) and includes both virgin and non-virgin women. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is clearly stating that she is more rightful than her guardian in managing her own affairs in terms of marriage and other similar things.

4) Sayyiduna Ali ibn Abi Talib (Allah be pleased with him) would strongly advise against marrying without the guardian’s approval, but if someone was to go ahead and marry, he would consider their marriage to be valid. (Kanz al-Ummal, no: 45775)

https://hanafilegalrulings.blogspot....0%2C2711674687
Reply

azc
04-09-2018, 07:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by OmAbdullah
These verses are not applicable here.
The verses you've quoted have nothing to do with 'wali' but I didnot say this, whereas these verses I quoted aren't applicable in your eyes...

Strange...!

You are playing with Quran. So Applicability of ayat depends on your right/wrong understanding...?

As of now you are trying to prove that Islam doesn't give equal rights to women. Women are stupid they are unable to take any decision. They have no reasoning power etc

The ayat I quoted clarified that everyone is responsible for his/her own doings and sayings. No person will bear the burden of others,

Think, even your own father will not bear your burden on judgement day.

So the girl has also independent identity. She is solely responsible for her deeds. She can take any decision. If she is wrong, herself is accountable on judgement day. Her father isn't be responsible for her wrong doings or sinning.

Hope you know When she reaches her puberty, she is accountable for her deeds.

Father, mother, sister, brother, relatives, neighbours, common Muslims all have different responsibilities and rights and they'll be called to book regarding their responsibilities.
Reply

azc
04-09-2018, 05:40 PM
Mu'atta imam malik kitab al nikah

Hadith No: 1
Narrated/Authority of
Yahya related to me from Malik from Muhammad ibn Yahya ibn Habban from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Do not ask for a woman in marriage when another muslim has already done so."

Hadith No: 2
Narrated/Authority of Nafi
Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Abdullah ibn Umar that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Do not ask for a woman in marriage when another muslim has already done so." Malik said, "The explanation of the statement of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, according to what we think - and Allah knows best - is that 'Do not ask for a woman in marriage when another muslim has already done so' means that when a man has asked for a woman in marriage, and she has inclined to him and they have agreed on a bride-price, which she has suggested and with which they are mutually satisfied, it is forbidden for another man to ask for that woman in marriage. It does not mean that when a man has asked for a woman in marriage, and his suit does not agree with her and she does not incline to him that no one else can ask for her in marriage. That is a door to misery for people."

Hadith No: 3
Narrated/Authority of
Yahya related to me from Malik from Abd ar-Rahman ibn al-Qasim that his father said about the word of Allah, the Blessed, the Exalted, "There is no fault in you about the proposal you offer to women, or hide in yourselves. Allah knows that you will be mindful of them; but do not make troth with them secretly without honourable words," (Sura 2 ayat 235) that it referred to a man saying to a woman while she was still in her idda after the death of her husband, "You are dear to me, and I desire you, and Allah brings provision and blessing to you," and words such as these.

Hadith No: 4
Narrated/Authority of
Malik related to me from Abdullah ibn al-Fadl from Nafi ibn Jubayr ibn Mutim from Abdullah ibn Abbas that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "A woman who has been previously married is more entitled to her person than her guardian, and a virgin must be asked for her consent for herself, and her consent is her silence."
Reply

OmAbdullah
04-11-2018, 04:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
@OmAbdullah:

1) Allah Most High says: “When you divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their waiting period (idda), do not prevent them from marrying their (former) husbands, if they mutually agree on equitable terms. ” (Surah al-Baqarah, V: 232)




















In this verse, Allah Most High attributes the conducting of marriage to women which is an indication that they are able to marry themselves without the permission and approval of their Wali. Moreover, the guardians are instructed not to interfere by preventing them from marrying their former husbands.

2) Allah Most High says: “If any of you dies and leaves widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days: When they have fulfilled their term (of idda), there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves (marry themselves off) in a just and reasonable manner.” (Surah al-Baqarah, V: 234)

In this verse also, there is clear indication that women have full rights of marrying themselves and do not require the approval of their guardian or Wali.

3) Sayyiduna Abdullah ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “A non-married woman (virgin or non-virgin) has more right in managing her own affairs (i.e. marriage etc) than her guardian, and a virgin’s consent must be sought concerning herself, and her silence implies her consent.” (Sahih Muslim, no: 4121)

In this Hadith, the term Ayyim means a woman who has no husband (man la zawja lah) and includes both virgin and non-virgin women. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is clearly stating that she is more rightful than her guardian in managing her own affairs in terms of marriage and other similar things.

4) Sayyiduna Ali ibn Abi Talib (Allah be pleased with him) would strongly advise against marrying without the guardian’s approval, but if someone was to go ahead and marry, he would consider their marriage to be valid. (Kanz al-Ummal, no: 45775)

https://hanafilegalrulings.blogspot....0%2C2711674687

1. You are making the case of a married then divorced women and a widow equal to that of an unmarried girl. That is not fair. Rather it is very wrong.

2. You are completely rejecting the hadeeth that marriage without wali is not valid. You have no right to do that.


3. Allah ordered the parents of a married then divorced woman not to prevent the remarriage of the divorced woman with her ex-husband when the two agree to remarry. That is a special case after first or second divorce when the woman completed her iddah and the husband failed to do rajoo' within the three months of iddah. Then after that he realized to remake the same family. Allah doesn't want to break a family and so Allah hates divorce. In remarriage the family will be remade and the children will not be deprived of one of the parents. This is possible after one or two divorces. For the same purpose Allah has ordained three divorces and ordered to give only one divorce at a time with three months of iddah. Moreover this is again the case of a married woman and we all know that the case of a widow or divorced woman is different from that of an unmarried girl. You cannot make them similar.


4. You have no right to omit the Hadeeth about the obligation of wali in case of a Muslimah's marriage. Islam has taken complete care of the circumstances. If a father or a brother is unjust, then for the cases of dispute, she shall be helped by a Muslim ruler because a Hadeeth says that in case of dispute, ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian. This hadeeth clearly indicates that an unjust father loses the status of guardian and cannot be wali. Allah's laws are perfect and a true Muslim must say: "sami'naa wa ata'naa" ("we heard and we obeyed").
Reply

azc
04-11-2018, 05:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by OmAbdullah
1. You are making the case of a married then divorced women and a widow equal to that of an unmarried girl. That is not fair. Rather it is very wrong.

2. You are completely rejecting the hadeeth that marriage without wali is not valid. You have no right to do that.


3. Allah ordered the parents of a married then divorced woman not to prevent the remarriage of the divorced woman with her ex-husband when the two agree to remarry. That is a special case after first or second divorce when the woman completed her iddah and the husband failed to do rajoo' within the three months of iddah. Then after that he realized to remake the same family. Allah doesn't want to break a family and so Allah hates divorce. In remarriage the family will be remade and the children will not be deprived of one of the parents. This is possible after one or two divorces. For the same purpose Allah has ordained three divorces and ordered to give only one divorce at a time with three months of iddah. Moreover this is again the case of a married woman and we all know that the case of a widow or divorced woman is different from that of an unmarried girl. You cannot make them similar.


4. You have no right to omit the Hadeeth about the obligation of wali in case of a Muslimah's marriage. Islam has taken complete care of the circumstances. If a father or a brother is unjust, then for the cases of dispute, she shall be helped by a Muslim ruler because a Hadeeth says that in case of dispute, ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian. This hadeeth clearly indicates that an unjust father loses the status of guardian and cannot be wali. Allah's laws are perfect and a true Muslim must say: "sami'naa wa ata'naa" ("we heard and we obeyed").
Where it is mentioned in ahadith which invalidate marriage without wali excempt the marriage of widow or divorced lady..?
If a widow is free to take her own decision why an unmarried can't take. Does she not have ability..?
Or
Is she stupid..?
No, she can't take her decision because of haya. This is why wali is needed here.

Do you not consider this aspect of this issue that despite the consent of wali the final concent of girl is essential for nikah. If the girl refuse to accept this nikah, it is invalid.

Who denies that wali is not needed in nikah..?

Only the question is if a boy and a girl married without his consent and they have children, will the marriage be considered as ''fornication'' and children as ''bastar...'' till they are alive...?

Indeed, the consent of wali is essentially required, even he can do nikah without asking for consent of girl on behalf of her if she is still immature or a slave or insane...?
Reply

OmAbdullah
04-13-2018, 10:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
Where it is mentioned in ahadith which invalidate marriage without wali excempt the marriage of widow or divorced lady..?
If a widow is free to take her own decision why an unmarried can't take. Does she not have ability..?
Or
Is she stupid..?
No, she can't take her decision because of haya. This is why wali is needed here.

Do you not consider this aspect of this issue that despite the consent of wali the final concent of girl is essential for nikah. If the girl refuse to accept this nikah, it is invalid.

Who denies that wali is not needed in nikah..?

Only the question is if a boy and a girl married without his consent and they have children, will the marriage be considered as ''fornication'' and children as ''bastar...'' till they are alive...?

Indeed, the consent of wali is essentially required, even he can do nikah without asking for consent of girl on behalf of her if she is still immature or a slave or insane...?

It seems like you are in a confused state pf mind as now you are contradicting your own words. Sometimes you go to one extreme and then to another extreme but Islam is not the religion of extremes. You sometimes, deny the obligation of the presence of wali as you did in your posts in this thread. On other times you give the father /wali such a status that he can do nikah without the consent of his daughter. So at this extreme you deprive the girl of her right of consent.


Islam on the one hand has given the girls the right of consent and on the other hand it has obligated the presence of wali for her marriage. That means the girl has the right to choose for her a husband but her wali (father etc.) has the duty to give her strength and support in making this family a strong family.


At the time of Muhammad salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam girls used to be very shy and would not give their consent. So the sahaabah rAa asked how to get the consent of girls. The prophet
salla Allaho alayhi wa sallam
answered that "her silence is her consent".


Your last words in this post are:

Indeed, the consent of wali is essentially required, even he can do nikah without asking for consent of girl on behalf of her if she is still immature or a slave or insane...?


You must know that marriage contract is like other contracts. Any contract cannot happen with insane person. Are you going to make the nikah (marriage contract ) of an insane girl with a sane man. That will be terrible dishonesty with the unfortunate man!


According to the Holy Quraan, immature girl cannot be married. The Hadeeth of "consent" proves that the girl and boy must both be mature for marriage. I have explained these points in my previous posts in this thread and others.


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format_quote Originally Posted by azc
Mu'atta imam malik kitab al nikah

Hadith No: 1
Narrated/Authority of
Yahya related to me from Malik from Muhammad ibn Yahya ibn Habban from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Do not ask for a woman in marriage when another muslim has already done so."

Hadith No: 2
Narrated/Authority of Nafi
Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Abdullah ibn Umar that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Do not ask for a woman in marriage when another muslim has already done so." Malik said, "The explanation of the statement of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, according to what we think - and Allah knows best - is that 'Do not ask for a woman in marriage when another muslim has already done so' means that when a man has asked for a woman in marriage, and she has inclined to him and they have agreed on a bride-price, which she has suggested and with which they are mutually satisfied, it is forbidden for another man to ask for that woman in marriage. It does not mean that when a man has asked for a woman in marriage, and his suit does not agree with her and she does not incline to him that no one else can ask for her in marriage. That is a door to misery for people."

Hadith No: 3
Narrated/Authority of
Yahya related to me from Malik from Abd ar-Rahman ibn al-Qasim that his father said about the word of Allah, the Blessed, the Exalted, "There is no fault in you about the proposal you offer to women, or hide in yourselves. Allah knows that you will be mindful of them; but do not make troth with them secretly without honourable words," (Sura 2 ayat 235) that it referred to a man saying to a woman while she was still in her idda after the death of her husband, "You are dear to me, and I desire you, and Allah brings provision and blessing to you," and words such as these.

Hadith No: 4
Narrated/Authority of
Malik related to me from Abdullah ibn al-Fadl from Nafi ibn Jubayr ibn Mutim from Abdullah ibn Abbas that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "A woman who has been previously married is more entitled to her person than her guardian, and a virgin must be asked for her consent for herself, and her consent is her silence."

I don't understand what is the need of these ahaadeeth 1, 2, and 3 concerning wali. Well if you are only providing knowledge to the readers about some other situations related to marriage then may Allah give you reward. But here these are not related to the topic of wali which is a topic of discussion/dispute.
Reply

azc
04-14-2018, 01:59 AM
Negation of nikah and negation of perfection of nikah are 2 different things.

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https://hanafilegalrulings.blogspot....0%2C1504985016


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https://hanafilegalrulings.blogspot....0%2C1504985016
Reply

ChosenTCO
04-14-2018, 02:59 AM
I think both of you are talking about two different issues and thats why you are not going anywhere with this.

I think OmAbdullah is talking about the most basic and general state a girl is likely to be in when getting married (She most likely has a fair wali. She is young, naive and have no experience in background checking). In such a case, there is no reason for her NOT to take her wali's consent on the marriage and that it would be going against the sharia if she didn't. The hadiths mentioned on this thread even proves this.
Whereas you are talking about uncommon situations like the marriage of a widow or divorced woman. These cases do seem to not need a wali's approval for marriage and it shows from the verses and ahadith you mentioned. So i think its safe to say that both of you are correct but both of you are talking about different situations.

I think azc is trying to show that these rulings arent 100% black and white like most people think. There are scenarios which dont require the approval of the wali at all.
Reply

azc
04-14-2018, 03:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChosenTCO
I think both of you are talking about two different issues and thats why you are not going anywhere with this.

I think OmAbdullah is talking about the most basic and general state a girl is likely to be in when getting married (She most likely has a fair wali. She is young, naive and have no experience in background checking). In such a case, there is no reason for her NOT to take her wali's consent on the marriage and that it would be going against the sharia if she didn't. The hadiths mentioned on this thread even proves this.
Whereas you are talking about uncommon situations like the marriage of a widow or divorced woman. These cases do seem to not need a wali's approval for marriage and it shows from the verses and ahadith you mentioned. So i think its safe to say that both of you are correct but both of you are talking about different situations.

I think azc is trying to show that these rulings arent 100% black and white like most people think. There are scenarios which dont require the approval of the wali at all.
Question:
I have done a secret nikah with a girl (without the knowledge of our parents) who is of the same social standing as me. I proposed her by saying “I am making my Nikah with you, do you accept?” in Urdu language three times and she said “I accept” three times. This happened in front of two adult and sane Muslim brothers. They knew that they are there to be witness of our Nikah. We decided to fix the Mahr amount and pay it in future times, when we do Nikah with the knowledge of our parents. The witnesses clearly understood that we accepted each other as husband and wife and they agreed that they witnessed the ceremony. We strongly believe that our nikah is valid. However, please confirm to us in the light of Hanafi School of Thoughts.

Answer

(Fatwa: 1628/1628/M=1432)

In the question mentioned above, if you and the girl were present in the same meeting and the ijab-o-qubool of nikah (proper exchange of nikah words) was done in the presence of two witnesses then the nikah was valid. However, you did not do good by performing nikah without informing your parents.

Allah (Subhana Wa Ta’ala)knows Best

Darul Ifta,
Darul Uloom Deoband

Note: I say that this secret marriage without wali is disliked though but nikah is valid. It is not fornication and children of nikah aren't bastar*.

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https://islamqa.org/hanafi/darulifta...0%2C2534404859
Reply

azc
04-19-2018, 07:32 AM
Bottomline is that secret marriage without wali is disliked though but valid if done. Spouses' relationship is not fornication...
Reply

Zzz_
04-19-2018, 04:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by azc
Bottomline is that secret marriage without wali is disliked though but valid if done.
this is not permissible for the following reasons:


Firstly: the approval of her guardian is one of the conditions of marriage being valid. If you marry her without the knowledge of her guardian, this will make the marriage invalid.


Secondly: marriage must be witnessed or announced openly, but you want it to be a secret marriage that no one knows about. A secret marriage that is not witnessed or announced openly is also an invalid marriage.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:


As for getting married in secret, in which the parties agree to conceal it and not bring anyone to be witness to it, this is invalid according to most scholars, and it comes under the heading of illegal sexual intercourse. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):


“All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse”

[an-Nisa’ 4:24].

https://islamqa.info/en/222086

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Bottom line, words of the Prophet(S) trumps any scholar or madhab. Even the imams of these madhabs said don't follow me if what I say contradicts the Quran and Sunnah.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage without a guardian.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1101; Abu Dawood, 2085; Ibn Maajah, 1881. Classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 1/318)


The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Any woman who gets married without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid. But if the marriage is consummated then the mahr is hers because she has allowed him to be intimate with her. If they dispute, then the ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1102; Abu Dawood, 2083; Ibn Maajah, 1879. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel, 1840)
Reply

azc
04-19-2018, 06:06 PM
The hadith 'la nikah ila biwali' is reported in Jami' Tirmidhi, Kitab an-Nikah, as follows:

"Abu Musa رضي الله عنه reported that Allah's Messenger ﷺ said, 'Marriage is not performed if (consent of the) guardian is not there."

This hadith has also been reported in Ahmad, Abu Dawood, Ibn Majah and Darmi.

Sh Shah Abdul Haq Muhaddith Dehalwi in Ashi'-'at al-Lama'aat, Sharh Mishkat vol.4 pg 286 writes:

"There has been kalam (discussion) whether this hadith is sahih or not. Many a'imma hadith do not accept it to be sahih."

In Sharh Ma'ani al-Athar vol.3 pg 17-18, Imam Tahawi writes:

"The people of the first opinion (la nikah ila biwali) consider as evidence that which has been narrated from Abu Ishaq through Israel. He narrates from Abu Barda who narrates from his father that the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ said, 'no nikah without (consent of) the wali.'

So the evidence against them is that according to their rules it is not correct to use this hadith as proof because those people who have stronger memory than Israel, like Sufyan and Shu'bah, have narrated it 'munqati'an' (broken) from Abu Ishaq.
. . . .If they say Abu 'Awanah narrated this hadith marfu'an like Israel, Abu 'Awanah narrates from Ishaq who narrates from Abu Burdah who narrates from Abu Musa that, the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ‎ s.a.w said, 'no nikah without (consent of) wali.'

Then we will say that this hadith has been narrated through Abu 'Awana like you have said but we have checked the origin of the hadith and it is narrated from Abu 'Awana from Israel and he narrates it from Abu Ishaq and thus the narration of Abu 'Awana also returns to Israel.

Mu'alla bin Mansoor Razi says that Abu 'Awana narrated to me from Abu Ishaq through Israel from his sanad similar to this.
Hence this negates that Abu 'Awana had anything from Abu Ishaq directly."

Dr. Maulana Fadhal Ahmed, in his commentary on the English translation of Jami' Tirmidhi vol.1 pg 403 has noted:

"As for the hadith of Abu Musa رضي الله عنه it is not a worthy piece of evidence because there is a contradiction in its reporting and connection. Imam Tirmidhi (rh) has himself confirmed this. Hence, the correct position is that this hadith is mursal, as Imam Tahawi also confirms, while Ibn Hajr Asqalani (rh) said that it is not correct to deduce from it."

A slight variant of this hadith is reported in Ibn Majah as follows:
حدثنا ‏ ‏أبو كريب ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏عبد الله بن المبارك ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏حجاج ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏الزهري ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عروة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏عن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏و عن ‏ ‏عكرمة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏ابن عباس ‏ ‏قالا
"The prophet ﷺ said, 'There is no nikah without (the permission of) the wali,' and in the narration of 'Ayesha it is added, 'the sultan is the wali of the person who has no wali.'"

Abul Hasan Muhammad bin Abdul Hadi as-Sanadee, in Sunan Ibn Majah bi Sharh as-Sanadee wa Misbah az-Zujajah fi Zawa'id Ibn Majah vol.2 pg 428 [Publication: Darul Ma'rifah, Beirut; 1996], comments on this hadith:

"According to al-Zawa'id, its isnad contains in it al-Hajjaj who is Ibn Artaah. He is mudallis. He has transmitted it through 'an'ana and he has not heard from 'Ikrama. He transmits from 'Ikrama on the authority of Dawood bin al-Husain. Imam Ahmad held this opinion. Hajjaj did not hear from Zuhri. 'Abbad bin Zuhri said this. Sulaiman bin Musa is in agreement with him in it and he is reliable. Zuhri reported 'Ayesha on the authority of 'Urwa as saying the word: 'Any woman who marries without the consent of her guardian (her marriage) is invalid,' as the scholars of sunan transmitted it. I said: 'The scholars and devotees of hadith have criticized this isnad also.'"

Another strange point is observed by Maulana Muhammad Qasim Amin, in his brief commentary of the Urdu translation of Sunan Ibn Majah, where he writes that Shafi'i generally do not accept Hajaj bin Artaah and Ibn Luhai'ah but in this case they are using their narration as evidence. He further adds in, Sunan Ibn Majah vol.2 pg 31:

"Some hadith experts have stated that three ahadith are not proven to be from the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w ‎ﷺand one of them is the hadith 'la nikah ila biwali' and this is why it has not been recorded in the Sahihain; there is extreme ikhtilaf in the hadith."

Allama Badruddin al-'Ainee, in 'Umdatul Qari, vol.20 pg 165 [Publisher: Darul Kutub al-'ilmiyyah; 2001] comments on a similar hadith narrated from Abu Huraira:

"As for the hadith of Abu Hurairah, al-Mugheerah ibn Musa is in the chain of narrators about whom Bukhari said, 'munkar al-hadith' and Ibn Hiban said, 'he narrates from people of trust that which does not resemble confirmed hadith,' so he is not taken as hujjah anymore."
Reply

azc
04-19-2018, 06:57 PM
Of hadith of Hz A'isha ra:

Mufti Ahmed Yar Khan Na'eemi, in Mir'atul Manajih vol. 5 pg 48 writes:

"This hadith is da'eef and troubled just like the one preceding it. . . .Ibn Jareej says, 'I asked Ibn Shuhab about this hadith and he denied it (Mirqat).'"

Maulana Manzoor Ahmed, in Fadhl al-Ma'bud vol. 3 pg 285, writes:
"Zuhri denied this hadith"

Maulana Mohammad 'Aqil, in Ad-Durrul Mandhud vol.4 pg 35, says:

"One of the replies given in regards to this hadith is that its da'eef and it has Sulaiman bin Musa in the chain of narrators and he is weak. Bukhari said it was weak and Nasai said something (wrong) is in this hadith."

However, we will take all these ahadith to be of a sound chain. Yet, as explained previously, their apparent meaning cannot be taken. Even in this hadith, note that it mentions, if the man cohabits with the woman then she will get the dower. Dowry is something that is given to the wife. If the nikah would have been invalid, like how the opposition of the Ahnaf state, then this is a case of zina (fornication). And zina cannot be legalized by paying dowry to the woman. Thus it is obvious that "her marriage is batil (void)" cannot be taken literally to mean that the nikah never took place.

It is also important to note that the hadith which the opposition quotes from 'Ayesha is contrary to her action. Ghulam Rasool Sa'eedi, in Sharh Muslim vol. 3 pg 828, quotes a hadith from Musannaf Abi Sheeba which is as follows:

"Qasim bin Muhammad says that 'Ayesha did the nikah of the daughter of 'Abdur Rahman bin Abi Bakr with Mundhir bin al-Zubair. At that time 'Abdur Rahman was not present. When he came, he became angry and said, 'O slaves of Allah! Is it done to a person like me that his daughter is married without his consultation? 'Ayesha got angry and asked, 'do you dislike Mundhir?'"

A variant of this hadith is also recorded in Sharh Ma'ani al-Athar by different chains, where Mundhir stated that 'Abdur Rahman has the authority and 'Abdur Rahman said that he will not cancel anything which has been decided by 'Ayesha .
In light of this one can come up with two conclusions. The first being, that 'Ayesha did not consider the hadith 'Her marriage is void. Her marriage is void. Her marriage is void,' to be sahih and thus she acted opposite to it as seen in the hadith above. In this case, the former hadith cannot be used as evidence. The second being, that she does hold the former hadith to be true but the sense she implies is not what the opposition understand.


Allama Badruddin al-'Ainee, in 'Umdatul Qari vol.20 pg 163, observes:

"But its meaning refers to kamal (perfection) like in the hadith of the prophetﷺ about prayer when he says "no prayer (is valid) unless in a masjid."

Mufti Sa'eed Ahmed Palanpuri, in Tuhfatul Alma'ee vol.3 pg 518 adds:

"Imam A'zam says that this hadith is to threaten against something and in such ahadith the deficient is declared as banned. This is seen, for example, in the hadith in Kitab at-Tahara where it is stated that a man who sleeps with a menstruating woman or enters his wife from behind or goes to soothsayer to ask about things of ghaib has rejected the deen which has been revealed onto Muhammad ﷺ. This hadith is to threaten and in it deficient iman has been talked about as being banned. Hence no one will do takfir of such a person. Over here also, deficiency in nikah has been expressed as banned. And the evidence (daleel) is that the prophet ﷺ has said that such a woman married without a wali, with whom the husband has cohabited, will get the dowry.
. . . .And the meaning of the hadith is that if a woman does her nikah without consent of wali, then if the wali objects and the judge cancels the nikah, then if is wajib on the husband because the nikah was correct and the husband benefitted physically from his wife after a proper nikah. Thus dowry becomes wajib."
Reply

azc
04-20-2018, 04:48 AM
The fourth opinion:

The woman has the right to spend her own money in all circumstances, whether in a transaction or otherwise, whether this involves all of her wealth or part of it. This is the opinion of the majority, and is the opinion of the Hanafis, Shaafa’is and Hanbalis, and of Ibn al-Mundhir. (al-Mughni, 4/513;al-Ansaaf, 5/342;Ma’aani al-Athaar, 4/354;al-Baari, 5/318;al-Awtaar, 6/22).

This is the soundest opinion, and is most in accordance with the Qur’aan, the Sunnah and common sense.

In the Qur’aan, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And give to the women (whom you marry) their Mahr (obligatory bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) with a good heart, but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it, and enjoy it without fear of any harm (as Allaah has made it lawful).”[al-Nisa’ 4:4]

Allaah allows the husband to take what his wife gives him willingly.
Allaah also says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And if you divorce them before you have touched (had a sexual relation with) them, and you have appointed unto them the mahr (bridal money given by the husband to the wife at the time of marriage), then pay half of that (mahr), unless the women agree to forego it…”[al-Baqarah 2:237]

Here Allaah allows women to give up as much of the mahr as they wish if their husbands divorce them, without them having to ask permission from anybody. This indicates that women have the right to decide what to do with their own money, and that a woman has rights to her wealth just as a man has rights to his wealth. (Sharhal-Ma’aani al-Athaar, 4/352).

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And try orphans (as regards their intelligence) until they reach the age of marriage; if then you find sound judgement in them, release their property to them…” [al-Nisa’ 4:6]

This clearly means that when the female orphan becomes wise and discerning, she is allowed to handle her own wealth.

Similarly, when the women gave their jewellery in charity after the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had addressed them during his Eid sermon, this was an indication that they are allowed to dispose of their wealth without asking permission from anybody.


(See Ittihaaf al-Khilaan bi Huqooq al-Zawjayn fi’l-Islamby Dr. Fayhaan ibn ‘Ateeq al-Mutayri, pp. 92-96).

It says in Nayl al-Awtaar: “the majority of scholars agreed that women are allowed [to handle their own wealth] with no restrictions and without having to ask their husbands’ permission, so long as they are not foolish, but if they are foolish, it is not permitted.” It says inal-Fath: “The majority have a lot of evidence in the Qur’aan and Sunnah.”

The majority of scholars argued against those who used as evidence the hadeeth “It is not permissible for a woman to give anything except with the permission of her husband.” (Reported by Abu Dawood, 3079;Saheeh al-Jaami’, 7265;

some of its narrators have already been mentioned). The majority of scholars said that this has to do with the good manners and proper etiquette required of the wife because of the rights her husband has over her, and because of his status, experience in life and wisdom. Al-Sindi said in his commentary on al-Nisaa’i with regard to the hadeeth quoted:

“According to the majority of scholars, this has to do with good manners and making the husband feel good.” It was reported from al-Shaafa’i that the hadeeth was not proven, so how can we use it as evidence when the Qur’aan, Sunnah, other reports and common sense indicate the opposite?


https://islamqa.info/en/4037?_e_pi_=...0%2C5368440821

Note: I say, The same rule is applied here that an adult girl isn't stupid in taking her own decision concerning her nikah.

67 Wedlock, Marriage, 42 Chapter:

The father or the guardian cannot give a virgin or matron in marriage without her consent)41(باب لاَ يُنْكِحُ الأَبُ وَغَيْرُهُ الْبِكْرَ وَالثَّيِّبَ إِلاَّ بِرِضَاهَا

Narrated Abu Huraira ra:
The Prophet ‏s.a.w‏ said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Messenger ‏s.a.w ‎‏! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission.)

حَدَّثَنَا مُعَاذُ بْنُ فَضَالَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا هِشَامٌ، عَنْ يَحْيَى، عَنْ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ، أَنَّ أَبَا هُرَيْرَةَ، حَدَّثَهُمْ أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏"‏ لاَ تُنْكَحُ الأَيِّمُ حَتَّى تُسْتَأْمَرَ وَلاَ تُنْكَحُ الْبِكْرُ حَتَّى تُسْتَأْذَنَ ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالُوا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَكَيْفَ إِذْنُهَا قَالَ ‏"‏ أَنْ تَسْكُتَ ‏"‏‏.‏

Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 5136
In-book reference: Book 67, Hadith 72

USC-MSA web )English( reference: Vol. 7, Book 62, Hadith 67
)deprecated numbering scheme(
Reply

Abz2000
04-20-2018, 07:24 AM
Your father appears to think that his own choice is best - and he has the right as primary guardian amongst next of kin to attempt to convince you of his choice if he genuinely thinks it is best for you - but he cannot force you to marry someone against your will and he doesn't appear to be doing so.

If you don't accept his choice, he still has a duty as ward, watcher, and guard to ensure your safety, good health, and faith....
...it then logically follows that your next course of action should be to convince him of a better lawful choice in order to attain the most stable outcome and end in Allah's sight. That way you are able to be on good terms with the person who will automatically need to re-assume responsibility for you and your affairs if you ever lose your husband (fact of life i'm afraid) or your husband or his family kill you in a gruesome manner, this way you can always share problems with dad and expect assistance - since it's unlikely that you can find anyone more GENUINELY concerned for your wellbeing in times of good or bad - or death. It is also unlikely that your husband will have that level of duty sense hard wired into his psyche - and your relationship with him will depend more on trust and nuturing unlike dad....



Al Mughirah Ibn Shaibah said “I got engaged to a woman at the time of the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace). He asked me “Have you seen her?” I said “No”. He said “go and have a look at her, because it is more fitting that love and compatibility is established between you.” (Nasai)

-----

Khansa Bint Khidam said “My father married me to his nephew, and I did not like this match, so I complained to the Messenger of Allah (May Allah bless him and grant him peace). He said to me “accept what your father has arranged.” I said “I do not wish to accept what my father has arranged.”

He said “then this marriage is invalid, go and marry whomever you wish.” I said “I have accepted what my father has arranged, but I wanted women to know that fathers have no right in their daughter’s matters (i.e. they have no right to force a marriage on them).

(Fathul Bari Sharah Al Bukhari 9/194, Ibn Majah Kitabun Nikah 1/602)




-------

The statement: ......"Fathers have no right in their daughters matters" is obviously in the context of forced marriage, meddling too much in their daughters issues and interfering after every easy complaint from the chosen husband and allowing her very limited to no ability to settle into a mutually respectful harmonious life with the husband. Any woman would feel like a slave girl if it was a case of hubby not sorting sh#t correctly and instead running and telling tales to fav daddy in law about every single personal issue - it would most likely lead to a breakdown of trust in a relationship, also the self-respect and ability make responsible decisions from a position of due authority without constraint or sabotage is barely present in slave women and hence respect for others with such authority is diminished with such a negative mindset. It's a little way towards rationalising the cause for the Quranic prescription of half punishment for slave women who commit an act of lewd rebellion in contrast to free women....


... much pondering on long term psychological effects that our seemingly minor actions (in the sight of some) have on those under our responsibility.
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