Why Islam Disallows women to travel alone.

[MuhammadHamza1]

There is no need for an explanation.Few words will suffice,which are:
If every woman in the world took a male relative with her outside and never left her house except that she has a male relative with her,will the number of rapes that occur daily not fall down by a mile?

[beleiver]

Wouldnt it better to have zero tollerace for rapists or anyone that molests women, or if all women were to be treated as sisters ?

Where in the Quran does it say women are not allowed to leave the house alone?

[MuhammadHamza1]

There are punishments for rapists in countries where rapes are taking place and yet the number of rapes per day is ever increasing.

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Narrated by al-Bukhaari (1729) and Muslim (2391) from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) who said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No woman should travel except with a mahram, and no man should enter upon her unless a mahram of hers is present.” A man said: “O Messenger of Allaah, I want to go out with such and such an army and my wife wants to go for Hajj.” He said: “Go out (for Hajj) with her.”

[Peacefully]

women go through too much to protect themselves from the urges of men... rape should be a zero tolerance issue.

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[beleiver]

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In most cases in most coutries what few rape cases go to court very few get a conviction..There is certainly lots of tollerance for rapists in the west in the judicial system.
Neither do people regard each other as brother and sister and wont want to get involved if they hear a disturbance, if as Islam promotes, all women are your sister, every sister would always have guardians present when in public.


That hadith contradicts in the Quran where it says for women to wear a covering when going out to the cities, the quran says its a complete book , and nothing sould not be added..Somthing as important as women not being allowed out alone would surley be included if it was intended?

I find it worrying as this ruling which was used by the Church up untill fairly recently kind of makes women alone fair game for rapists and much of the leanience inherent in the system stems from this...
I find it repugnant and one of the main reasons i am not openly Muslim as i goes againt all common sense and certainly not the kind of world i want my daughters to be raised...Though i will raise them to best of my ability to submit to the will of their creator all the same.

Apeciate the thread btw its an issue i was going to bring up here.

[MuhammadHamza1]

I cannot see how this Hadith contradicts The Quranic passage you quoted.Also,do you agree that despite very strict legistlations in countries,rapes do still occur?Would it not be better for women to take a male guardian with them?Do you agree or not?Also,that Quranic passage only refers to Hijab.Hijab has a separate purpose.This issue a separate purpose.

[Misbah-Abd]

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In most cases in most coutries what few rape cases go to court very few get a conviction..There is certainly lots of tollerance for rapists in the west in the judicial system.
Neither do people regard each other as brother and sister and wont want to get involved if they hear a disturbance, if as Islam promotes, all women are your sister, every sister would always have guardians present when in public.


That hadith contradicts in the Quran where it says for women to wear a covering when going out to the cities, the quran says its a complete book , and nothing sould not be added..Somthing as important as women not being allowed out alone would surley be included if it was intended?

I find it worrying as this ruling which was used by the Church up untill fairly recently kind of makes women alone fair game for rapists and much of the leanience inherent in the system stems from this...
I find it repugnant and one of the main reasons i am not openly Muslim as i goes againt all common sense and certainly not the kind of world i want my daughters to be raised...Though i will raise them to best of my ability to submit to the will of their creator all the same.

Apeciate the thread btw its an issue i was going to bring up here.

Careful there. I smell a hadith rejector. In fact, the Sunnah does not contradict the Quran. It elaborates and explains the Quran.

[beleiver]

I cannot see how this Hadith contradicts The Quranic passage you quoted.Also,do you agree that despite very strict legistlations in countries,rapes do still occur?Would it not be better for women to take a male guardian with them?Do you agree or not?Also,that Quranic passage only refers to Hijab.Hijab has a separate purpose.This issue a separate purpose.

I will find the passage from the Quran later and bring it up, i recall it goes deeper than just a Hijab..

Which countries are these with strict laws?
I agree that having a guardian would certainly stop most cases of rape its a fair thing to encourage..But not practicle..
But what happens to women without a guardian? is there a punishment? Or a lesser punishment for men that harras or rape them?

Another huge thing i have with Islam is segregation of men/women, cant find mention of this in Quran other than the Prophets wives and we are not prophets..
Men and women prayed together it wasnt till after the prophets death that there was a divide due to women being harrased ( so i read ) , rather than brothers sticking up for their sisters and stamping out such behaviour they transgressed and created their own laws and rules that imho leands to more trangressions that leave the original sinners alone while accepting the sin which does have a victim..

Mohamed blessing be uponhim did great things for Womens rights in his day, it seems to me Islam or a part of it has gone back over the years not forward.

[Peacefully]

Wow, one of my posts disappeared. How that happen?

[beleiver]

Wow, one of my posts disappeared. How that happen?

That was good post too..
I was going to quote it, of course the word of man is inafiable and relying on hadith over Quran is a form of Shirk, Doing so can literally cover the word of God, which is major sin no?
my words not yours..

[AabiruSabeel]

As mentioned by a brother above,

the Sunnah does not contradict the Quran. It elaborates and explains the Quran.

In Islam, men and women have complementary roles. The requirement for a guardian or accompany of a male family member is for travelling outside the city.

Men and women prayed together it wasnt till after the prophets death ...

Women used to pray at the backside of the Masjid.

It was narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “A woman’s prayer in her room is better than her prayer in her courtyard, and her prayer in her cabinet is better than her prayer in her room.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 570; al-Tirmidhi, 1173. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Targheeb wa’l-Tarheeb, 1/136).

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “If the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had lived to see how women have started to behave, he would have prevented them [from going to the mosque] as the women of the Children of Israel were prevented.” I said, to ‘Umrah, “Were they prevented?” He said, “Yes.” (al-Bukhaari, 831; Muslim, 445)

[popsthebuilder]

As mentioned by a brother above,

In Islam, men and women have complementary roles. The requirement for a guardian or accompany of a male family member is for travelling outside the city.



Women used to pray at the backside of the Masjid.

It was narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “A woman’s prayer in her room is better than her prayer in her courtyard, and her prayer in her cabinet is better than her prayer in her room.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 570; al-Tirmidhi, 1173. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Targheeb wa’l-Tarheeb, 1/136).

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “If the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had lived to see how women have started to behave, he would have prevented them [from going to the mosque] as the women of the Children of Israel were prevented.” I said, to ‘Umrah, “Were they prevented?” He said, “Yes.” (al-Bukhaari, 831; Muslim, 445)

Neither of those say a woman must be escorted by a male relative.

Does it say such in the Quran?

[99sobi]

Does it say such in the Quran?

The Qur'an says,

And stay in your homes and do not go about displaying your allurements as in the former Time of Ignorance. Establish Prayer, give Zakah, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only wishes to remove uncleanness from you, O members of the (Prophet's) household, and to purify you completely. (33:33)

Al-Bukhaari (1729) and Muslim (2391) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No woman should travel except with a mahram.”

The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “No woman should travel except with a mahram and no man should enter upon her unless she has a mahram with her.” A man said: O Messenger of Allah, I want to go out with such-and-such an army, but my wife wants to go for Hajj. He said: “Go with her.”

Muslim (1339) narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible for a woman who believes in Allaah and the Last Day to travel the distance of one day, except with a mahram.”


”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [al-Nisaa’ 4:65]

“. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59]

[popsthebuilder]

The Qur'an says,

And stay in your homes and do not go about displaying your allurements as in the former Time of Ignorance. Establish Prayer, give Zakah, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only wishes to remove uncleanness from you, O members of the (Prophet's) household, and to purify you completely. (33:33)

Al-Bukhaari (1729) and Muslim (2391) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No woman should travel except with a mahram.”

The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “No woman should travel except with a mahram and no man should enter upon her unless she has a mahram with her.” A man said: O Messenger of Allah, I want to go out with such-and-such an army, but my wife wants to go for Hajj. He said: “Go with her.”

Muslim (1339) narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible for a woman who believes in Allaah and the Last Day to travel the distance of one day, except with a mahram.”


”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [al-Nisaa’ 4:65]

“. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59]

Please give surrah references that I might read within context please.

Thank you in advance.

[beleiver]

59. O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
60. If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbours in it but a little while.
61. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.
62. That was the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away of old; thou wilt not find for the way of Allah aught of power to change.

First of there is a clear distinction saying the Prophets wives are not like anyother women.

32. O ye wives of the Prophet! Ye are not like any other women. If ye keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft of speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease aspire (to you), but utter customary speech.
33. And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance. Be regular in prayer, and pay the poor-due, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing.

which might imply the rule about leaving the house alone only applies to the Prophets wives alone, and this verse was revealed when the Prophet(pbuh) was living in troubled times with many enemies around.

So saying all women require an escort is not there in the Quran? But it does make clear the Zero tollerance policy to wards molestors of Women and that can not ever change.
The major conradiction i find is the Quran states in numerous verse's it is a complete book and adding anything to it or distorting it is major sin?

But what do i know? If anyone can prove otherwise please do..

And i get why its a good idea to suggest and promote the idea of male guardians or escorts, especuially late at night when few people are around.
But forcing that all the time when going about their daily chores as a rule of law is surley problematic, if not out right oppression?

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[99sobi]

Please give surrah references that I might read within context please.

Thank you in advance.

30. O wives of the Prophet! Whoever of you commits an open illegal sexual intercourse, the torment for her will be doubled, and that is ever easy for Allah.
31. And whosoever of you is obedient to Allah and His Messenger

, and does righteous good deeds, We shall give her, her reward twice over, and We have prepared for her Rizqan Karima (a noble provision Paradise).
32. O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women. If you keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy, or evil desire for adultery, etc.) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner.
33. And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance, and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs (evil deeds and sins, etc.) from you, O members of the family (of the Prophet

), and to purify you with a thorough purification.
34. And remember (O you the members of the Prophet's family, the Graces of your Lord), that which is recited in your houses of the Verses of Allah and Al-Hikmah (i.e. Prophet's Sunnah legal ways, etc. so give your thanks to Allah and glorify His Praises for this Qur'an and the Sunnah). Verily, Allah is Ever Most Courteous, Well-Acquainted with all things.

which might imply the rule about leaving the house alone only applies to the Prophets wives alone, and this verse was revealed when the Prophet(pbuh) was living in troubled times with many enemies around.

Sheikh Maududi in his tafsir:

In these verses, though, only the wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him) have been addressed, the intention is to enforce reforms in all the Muslim houses. The object of addressing the Prophet’s (peace be upon him) wives in particular is that when a pure way of life will start from his house, it will be followed by the women of all other Muslim houses as well, because this house was looked upon by the Muslims as a model to follow. Some people, when they see that these verses have been addressed only to the wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him), assert that these commandments were only meant for them. But when one reads what follows in these verses, he feels that there is nothing which might have been meant particularly for the wives and not for the other Muslim women. Could Allah have intended only this that the wives alone should be free from un-cleanliness and they alone should obey Allah and His Prophet (peace be upon him) and they alone should offer the Salat and pay the Zakat? If this could not be the intention, then how could the command for them to stay in their houses and avoid displaying the fineries and abstain from talking to the other men in an alluring voice be meant particularly for them to the exclusion of all other Muslim women? Is there any rational proof on the basis of which some commands in one and the same context and series be regarded as general and some others as particular and special?

ibn Kathir: These are the good manners which Allah enjoined upon the wives of the Prophet so that they would be an example for the women of the Ummah to follow. Allah said, addressing the wives of the Prophet that they should fear Allah as He commanded them, and that no other woman is like them or can be their equal in virtue and status.

(And stay in your houses,) means, stay in your houses and do not come out except for a purpose. One of the purposes mentioned in Shari`ah is prayer in the Masjid, so long as the conditions are fulfilled, as the Messenger of Allah said:«لَا تَمْنَعُوا إِمَاءَ اللهِ مَسَاجِدَ اللهِ وَلْيَخْرُجْنَ وَهُنَّ تَفِلَات»(Do not prevent the female servants of Allah from the Masjids of Allah, but have them go out without wearing fragrance.) According to another report:«وَبُيُوتُهُنَّ خَيْرٌ لَهُن»(even though their houses are better for them.)

[Misbah-Abd]

There is nothing like a non scholar who claims to be a "Jedi" interpreting the Quran by his whims and desires. :facepalm:

[popsthebuilder]

30. O wives of the Prophet! Whoever of you commits an open illegal sexual intercourse, the torment for her will be doubled, and that is ever easy for Allah.
31. And whosoever of you is obedient to Allah and His Messenger

, and does righteous good deeds, We shall give her, her reward twice over, and We have prepared for her Rizqan Karima (a noble provision Paradise).
32. O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women. If you keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy, or evil desire for adultery, etc.) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner.
33. And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance, and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs (evil deeds and sins, etc.) from you, O members of the family (of the Prophet

), and to purify you with a thorough purification.
34. And remember (O you the members of the Prophet's family, the Graces of your Lord), that which is recited in your houses of the Verses of Allah and Al-Hikmah (i.e. Prophet's Sunnah legal ways, etc. so give your thanks to Allah and glorify His Praises for this Qur'an and the Sunnah). Verily, Allah is Ever Most Courteous, Well-Acquainted with all things.



Sheikh Maududi in his tafsir:

In these verses, though, only the wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him) have been addressed, the intention is to enforce reforms in all the Muslim houses. The object of addressing the Prophet’s (peace be upon him) wives in particular is that when a pure way of life will start from his house, it will be followed by the women of all other Muslim houses as well, because this house was looked upon by the Muslims as a model to follow. Some people, when they see that these verses have been addressed only to the wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him), assert that these commandments were only meant for them. But when one reads what follows in these verses, he feels that there is nothing which might have been meant particularly for the wives and not for the other Muslim women. Could Allah have intended only this that the wives alone should be free from un-cleanliness and they alone should obey Allah and His Prophet (peace be upon him) and they alone should offer the Salat and pay the Zakat? If this could not be the intention, then how could the command for them to stay in their houses and avoid displaying the fineries and abstain from talking to the other men in an alluring voice be meant particularly for them to the exclusion of all other Muslim women? Is there any rational proof on the basis of which some commands in one and the same context and series be regarded as general and some others as particular and special?

ibn Kathir: These are the good manners which Allah enjoined upon the wives of the Prophet so that they would be an example for the women of the Ummah to follow. Allah said, addressing the wives of the Prophet that they should fear Allah as He commanded them, and that no other woman is like them or can be their equal in virtue and status.

(And stay in your houses,) means, stay in your houses and do not come out except for a purpose. One of the purposes mentioned in Shari`ah is prayer in the Masjid, so long as the conditions are fulfilled, as the Messenger of Allah said:«لَا تَمْنَعُوا إِمَاءَ اللهِ مَسَاجِدَ اللهِ وَلْيَخْرُجْنَ وَهُنَّ تَفِلَات»(Do not prevent the female servants of Allah from the Masjids of Allah, but have them go out without wearing fragrance.) According to another report:«وَبُيُوتُهُنَّ خَيْرٌ لَهُن»(even though their houses are better for them.)

So by stay in houses you believe it literally means stay in your physical house and has nothing to do with dwelling in the place of the Lord internally that you might reflect what is good by adhrarance to modesty and humility?

Please excuse my ignorance; but would you please provide the chapter or book number with the surrah you provided?

[beleiver]

My whim is my desire for Truth..

99sobi Thanks for your reply but i am still confused, It clearly sates the Prophets wives "are not like other women", why would it state that if all women were to follow the following advice?

Also it doesnt say anything about having to have a male guardian, just not to leave the house which would be totally understandable in the contxt of the time of the revalation during a time of war and a seige where treachourous people where living among the Muslims..

Surley If such an extreme rule was meant it would be in the Quran crystal clear so all people could follow it without question, it all seems such a strech of wording and simply not practicle as a way of life.

[Misbah-Abd]

My whim is my desire for Truth..

99sobi Thanks for your reply but i am still confused, It clearly sates the Prophets wives "are not like other women", why would it state that if all women were to follow the following advice?

Also it doesnt say anything about having to have a male guardian, just not to leave the house which would be totally understandable in the contxt of the time of the revalation during a time of war and a seige where treachourous people where living among the Muslims..

Surley If such an extreme rule was meant it would be in the Quran crystal clear so all people could follow it without question, it all seems such a strech of wording and simply not practicle as a way of life.

So according to your logic then since the Quran doesn't specifically state the 5 prayers crystal clearly so all people could follow it without question, then it is ok to interpret it the way you want to and just pray 3. Or you can look into the Sunnah, which elaborates and explains the Quran, and understand that the Prophet s.a.a.w. and his companions prayed 5. Make sense, truth-seeker?

[beleiver]

The perfected way to pray is in the Sunnah agreed, but as there is no compulsion in Islam, I suppose Allah is saying its still possible to submit to Allah as long as you remember Him and pray
and live the righetous life and follow Truth?

It is another question i have , especially praying in a language i dont even understand, I do understand why it would be best to learn Arabic and pray like the Prophet, but untill i do i pray my way and i certainly beleive it helps me.


I started a thread with questions regarding prayer, i will continue the disscussion there rather than take this thread off topic, if you like?

[Misbah-Abd]

The perfected way to pray is in the Sunnah agreed, but as there is no compulsion in Islam, I suppose Allah is saying its still possible to submit to Allah as long as you remember Him and pray
and live the righetous life and follow Truth?

It is another question i have , especially praying in a language i dont even understand, I do understand why it would be best to learn Arabic and pray like the Prophet, but untill i do i pray my way and i certainly beleive it helps me.


I started a thread with questions regarding prayer, i will continue the disscussion there rather than take this thread off topic, if you like?

No, I get it. You want Islam to conform to you and your logic. This Deen has been established for over 1400 years with an unbroken chain of scholarly knowledge and wisdom. It's hear and obey time. Praying the five prayers has to be in Arabic. It is not something that is beyond human possibility to do. My wife's 9 year old son can do it. And there are children much younger than that that has mastered it. All it takes is time and effort without questioning everything in the religion.

[99sobi]

So by stay in houses you believe it literally means stay in your physical house and has nothing to do with dwelling in the place of the Lord internally that you might reflect what is good by adhrarance to modesty and humility?

Please excuse my ignorance; but would you please provide the chapter or book number with the surrah you provided?

.....I have already given you the reference, Surah Ahzab verse 33

And yes it quite simply means to stay in the house, this is the beloved place of Allah for the women, and acts of worship are encouraged in the house for them. They are allowed to go out, but only with a purpose or for necessities, and as long as they are with a mahram such as their husband

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It clearly sates the Prophets wives "are not like other women", why would it state that if all women were to follow the following advice?

They are not like other women because they are the Prophet's wives; i.e. one of a kind. Women in this day and age are not like the Prophet's wives because they aren't married to the prophet! Quite simple. They are also not like other women because they are a role model, just like how the Prophet is not like other people because he is a messenger, a role model. This is mentioned in Sheikh Maududi's commentary which I quoted in my previous post

[popsthebuilder]

No, I get it. You want Islam to conform to you and your logic. This Deen has been established for over 1400 years with an unbroken chain of scholarly knowledge and wisdom. It's hear and obey time. Praying the five prayers has to be in Arabic. It is not something that is beyond human possibility to do. My wife's 9 year old son can do it. And there are children much younger than that that has mastered it. All it takes is time and effort without questioning everything in the religion.

"Praying the five prayers has to be in Arabic"

What!?

As if GOD cannot understand any other language. GOD knows one's thoughts; one's thoughts are generally in their native tongue.

[popsthebuilder]

.....I have already given you the reference, Surah Ahzab verse 33

And yes it quite simply means to stay in the house, this is the beloved place of Allah for the women, and acts of worship are encouraged in the house for them. They are allowed to go out, but only with a purpose or for necessities, and as long as they are with a mahram such as their husband

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They are not like other women because they are the Prophet's wives; i.e. one of a kind. Women in this day and age are not like the Prophet's wives because they aren't married to the prophet! Quite simple. They are also not like other women because they are a role model, just like how the Prophet is not like other people because he is a messenger, a role model. This is mentioned in Sheikh Maududi's commentary which I quoted in my previous post

Ahzab

That is what I needed....thank you friend.

[Misbah-Abd]

"Praying the five prayers has to be in Arabic"

What!?

As if GOD cannot understand any other language. GOD knows one's thoughts; one's thoughts are generally in their native tongue.

I don't expect you to understand.

[popsthebuilder]

I don't expect you to understand.

I didn't expect you to be able to elaborate using the Quran.

[Misbah-Abd]

I didn't expect you to be able to elaborate using the Quran.

What's it to you anyways. Why are you even on a Muslim site. No good Christian forums? Unlike you people, we have established rules that we abide by and one of them is that a new Muslim must learn to recite the prayers in Arabic, regardless of what you think.

[popsthebuilder]

What's it to you anyways. Why are you even on a Muslim site. No good Christian forums? Unlike you people, we have established rules that we abide by and one of them is that a new Muslim must learn to recite the prayers in Arabic, regardless of what you think.

That isn't what I asked.

Can GOD understand prayer if not in Arabic?

[99sobi]

"Praying the five prayers has to be in Arabic"

What!?

As if GOD cannot understand any other language. GOD knows one's thoughts; one's thoughts are generally in their native tongue.

https://islamqa.info/en/3471 Fatwa: What should a non-Arab do for the adhkaar in salaah?

The majority of fuqaha’ say that if the non-Arab can speak Arabic, he should not recite Takbeer (saying “Allaahu akbar (Allaah is Most Great)”) in any other language. The evidence for this is that the texts instruct this particular wording, which is Arabic, and that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not do it any other way.

But if a non-Arab cannot speak Arabic and is unable to pronounce it, then according to the majority of fuqaha’ it is OK for him to say the Takbeer in his own language after it has been translated from Arabic, according to the statements of the Shaafa’is and Hanbalis, no matter what the language is.

With regard to reading Qur’aan, the majority say that it is not permissible to read it in any language other than Arabic.

If he cannot do anything, but he knows some of the Qur’aan by heart, he should recite whatever he can, and nothing else will do, because of the report narrated by Abu Dawood from Rifaa’ah ibn Raafi’, who said that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When you get up to pray, if you know some Qur’aan, recite it, otherwise say al-hamdu Lillaah (praise be to Allaah), and La ilaaha ill-Allaah (there is no god but Allaah), and Allaahu akbar (Allaah is Most Great).”

---

For non-Arabic speakers, they should try to learn the prayers that are recited in salah (they're not that long, to be honest). There are many resources out there on the internet (a great gift bestowed upon us, alhamdulillah) with the English translation and transliteration of these du'as. During your salah, you can read the transliteration if that helps you. Allah does not want to make this difficult or a burden for you.

[beleiver]

.....I have already given you the reference, Surah Ahzab verse 33

And yes it quite simply means to stay in the house, this is the beloved place of Allah for the women, and acts of worship are encouraged in the house for them. They are allowed to go out, but only with a purpose or for necessities, and as long as they are with a mahram such as their husband

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They are not like other women because they are the Prophet's wives; i.e. one of a kind. Women in this day and age are not like the Prophet's wives because they aren't married to the prophet! Quite simple. They are also not like other women because they are a role model, just like how the Prophet is not like other people because he is a messenger, a role model. This is mentioned in Sheikh Maududi's commentary which I quoted in my previous post

With all due respect, i find it hard to agree with Sheikh Maududi's commentary, and i cant help but think beleiving a mans word over Allahas is a kind of Shirk thats going down the road of corruption all other releigions suffered.
Its still not clear and implies the Quran is incomplete. yet it sates otherwise.
To be honest when i read the Quran with main stream Islam in mind i cant help thinking Allaha is talking about Modern Islam the same way he talks of the Jews and non beleivers, no offence intended..

Here are a few random Quotes so you might better understand my query..

6:38 If you really want to see the signs of Allah, just look at any animal that walks upon the earth and any bird that flies in the air; they too are the communities like you. We have not left out anything from the Book in determining the courses of their lives. They all shall be gathered before

6:114 Say: Should I seek a judge other than Allah, when He is the One Who has revealed this Book (The Qur'an) with full details? Those whom We gave the Book, before you, know very well that it is revealed to you from your Rabb with the Truth; therefore, you should not be of those who have doubts.

7: 52 For We have certainly brought them a Book which provides clear details based on knowledge and which is a guidance and blessing for the true believers.

17.12 We have made the night and the day as two signs. We enshrouded the night with darkness and gave light to the day, to enable you to seek the bounty of your Rabb, and that you may compute the years and count the numbers. Thus, We have set forth all things in detail.

11:1 Alif Lam Ra. This Book, whose verses are perfected and issued in detail by the One Who is All-Wise, All-Aware.

41. 3 A Book whereof the verses are explained in detail a Qur'an in Arabic for people who understand.

12.111 There is a lesson in these stories of former people for the men of common sense. This story of Yusuf revealed in the Qur'an is not an invented tale, but a confirmation of previous scriptures - a detailed exposition of all things, and is a guidance and blessing for the people who believe.

[AabiruSabeel]

@beleiver, @popsthebuilder

Allah :swt: says at several places in the Qur'an to obey Him and the Messenger. See http://legacy.quran.com/3/32, http://legacy.quran.com/3/132, http://legacy.quran.com/4/13, http://legacy.quran.com/4/59, http://legacy.quran.com/4/64, http://legacy.quran.com/4/69, http://legacy.quran.com/4/80, http://legacy.quran.com/5/92, http://legacy.quran.com/8/1, http://legacy.quran.com/8/24, http://legacy.quran.com/8/46, http://legacy.quran.com/9/71, http://legacy.quran.com/14/44, http://legacy.quran.com/24/47, http://legacy.quran.com/24/51, http://legacy.quran.com/24/52, http://legacy.quran.com/24/54, http://legacy.quran.com/24/56, http://legacy.quran.com/33/33, http://legacy.quran.com/33/66, http://legacy.quran.com/33/71, http://legacy.quran.com/47/33, http://legacy.quran.com/48/17, http://legacy.quran.com/49/14, http://legacy.quran.com/58/13, http://legacy.quran.com/64/12

Following the Sunnah is an integral part of Islam. Allah :swt: sent the Messenger as a practical guide for mankind. And the Sunnah is found in Hadith.

The prophet :saws: forbade women to travel alone without a mahram. See https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/8/35, https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/12/25

A mahram is a blood relative of a woman, whom she cannot marry, such as father, brother, son, father in law, son in law, nephew, or the husband himself.

[popsthebuilder]

@beleiver, @popsthebuilder

Allah :swt: says at several places in the Qur'an to obey Him and the Messenger. See http://legacy.quran.com/3/32, http://legacy.quran.com/3/132, http://legacy.quran.com/4/13, http://legacy.quran.com/4/59, http://legacy.quran.com/4/64, http://legacy.quran.com/4/69, http://legacy.quran.com/4/80, http://legacy.quran.com/5/92, http://legacy.quran.com/8/1, http://legacy.quran.com/8/24, http://legacy.quran.com/8/46, http://legacy.quran.com/9/71, http://legacy.quran.com/14/44, http://legacy.quran.com/24/47, http://legacy.quran.com/24/51, http://legacy.quran.com/24/52, http://legacy.quran.com/24/54, http://legacy.quran.com/24/56, http://legacy.quran.com/33/33, http://legacy.quran.com/33/66, http://legacy.quran.com/33/71, http://legacy.quran.com/47/33, http://legacy.quran.com/48/17, http://legacy.quran.com/49/14, http://legacy.quran.com/58/13, http://legacy.quran.com/64/12

Following the Sunnah is an integral part of Islam. Allah :swt: sent the Messenger as a practical guide for mankind. And the Sunnah is found in Hadith.

The prophet :saws: forbade women to travel alone without a mahram. See https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/8/35, https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/12/25

A mahram is a blood relative of a woman, whom she cannot marry, such as father, brother, son, father in law, son in law, nephew, or the husband himself.

Of course we are to obey GOD and HIS messenger.

but it also says that it is the extent of the guidance one needs. Are there any surrah that say a woman can leave her home only with a close relative?

[AabiruSabeel]

Are there any surrah that say a woman can leave her home only with a close relative?

Did you not read the links that I provided at the end? See https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/8/35 again.

The prohibition is for travelling, as in travelling outside the city, not within the city. Within the city, a woman can go outside her home if there is a need. See the detailed explanation here: https://islamqa.info/en/6713

Hadith - The Book of Etiquette of Traveling - Riyad as-Salihin - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم) Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic...

[beleiver]

@beleiver, @popsthebuilder

Allah :swt: says at several places in the Qur'an to obey Him and the Messenger. See http://legacy.quran.com/3/32, http://legacy.quran.com/3/132, http://legacy.quran.com/4/13, http://legacy.quran.com/4/59, http://legacy.quran.com/4/64, http://legacy.quran.com/4/69, http://legacy.quran.com/4/80, http://legacy.quran.com/5/92, http://legacy.quran.com/8/1, http://legacy.quran.com/8/24, http://legacy.quran.com/8/46, http://legacy.quran.com/9/71, http://legacy.quran.com/14/44, http://legacy.quran.com/24/47, http://legacy.quran.com/24/51, http://legacy.quran.com/24/52, http://legacy.quran.com/24/54, http://legacy.quran.com/24/56, http://legacy.quran.com/33/33, http://legacy.quran.com/33/66, http://legacy.quran.com/33/71, http://legacy.quran.com/47/33, http://legacy.quran.com/48/17, http://legacy.quran.com/49/14, http://legacy.quran.com/58/13, http://legacy.quran.com/64/12

Following the Sunnah is an integral part of Islam. Allah :swt: sent the Messenger as a practical guide for mankind. And the Sunnah is found in Hadith.

The prophet :saws: forbade women to travel alone without a mahram. See https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/8/35, https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/12/25

A mahram is a blood relative of a woman, whom she cannot marry, such as father, brother, son, father in law, son in law, nephew, or the husband himself.

Thanks for those, but i am still confused..

To obey Allah we obey the Quran?
And the Quran says it is complete, perfected and all we need to know about Islam in every detail and Mohamed (pbuh) is just Allahs messenger, he isnt the law giver in fact it states Mohamed (pbuh) can not make something prohibited or make law, that of course come from Allah alone..

Of course when he was alive people were to follow him and we can still follow him in his ways but he couldnt make laws that were not revealed by Allaha in the Quran.
He could give sound instruction and advice like in those Hadiths but surley it couldnt be the basis of Law, it would have to be in the Quran and clear to be a neccecary integral part of Islam, surley?

66: 1 O Prophet! Why do you make something unlawful, which Allah has made lawful to you in seeking to please your wives? Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

64. Say: Allah delivereth you from this and from all affliction. Yet ye attribute partners unto Him.
65. Say: He is able to send punishment upon you from above you or from beneath your feet, or to bewilder you with dissension and make you taste the tyranny one of another. See how We display the revelations so that they may understand.
66. Thy people (O Muhammad) have denied it, though it is the Truth. Say: I am not put in charge of you.

[AabiruSabeel]

As I said, the Messenger is sent as a practical guide. His duty is to teach the Qur'an, and also to show us how to follow the Qur'an. Otherwise, every Zaid, Bakr and Ahmad would interpret the Qur'an in his own understanding.

Allah :swt: says,
Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know. [2:151]

The Book is the Qur'an, but where do you find the wisdom and the other knowledge that what taught? It is there in the Hadith. The Qur'an and Sunnah are the two sources of legislation in Islam. Please read the links given in this thread to understand this concept properly: Why do we have tofollow thesunnah ofthe prophet Muhammad and not justfollow thequraan

[beleiver]

Of course its a sound guidance, sensible practice and common sense to have a relative accompany woman on a journey, especially in those days in times of conflict, kind of sound advice one would expect , but unless its in the Quran and clear, surley its just sound advice still not an integral part of Islam?
Islam is a universal way of life for all humanity for all time, no?
If it was True Islam how wouldnt it make the numerous verses clearley stating that the Quran is a complete, conscise and detailed way to live would be not true?
Then we are going down that road of relying on men to form our laws and misguide us..That road Islam was taken many times before.

Ever thing in the Quran resonates with Truth , but i am struggling with this one , its simply not practicle and reeks of oppression.

But for arguments sake , i am wrong and/or Islam is practiced this way, what happens to women travelling alone?
Wouldnt rules like this put them in more danger?
If not how not?

[Misbah-Abd]

Of course its a sound guidance, sensible practice and common sense to have a relative accompany woman on a journey, especially in those days in times of conflict, kind of sound advice one would expect , but unless its in the Quran and clear, surley its just sound advice still not an integral part of Islam?
If it was True Islam how wouldnt it make the numerous verses clearley stating that the Quran is a complete, conscise and detailed way to live would be not true?
Then we are going down that road of relying on men to form our laws and misguide us..That road Islam was taken many times before.

Ever thing in the Quran resonates with Truth , but i am struggling with this one , its simply not practicle and reeks of oppression.

But for arguments sake , i am wrong and/or Islam is practiced this way, what happens to women travelling alone?
Wouldnt rules like this put them in more danger?
If not how not?

Wow. What don't you understand. We have the Sunnah of the Prophet s.a.a.w. We are not relying on "men to form our laws and misguide us". We are relying on Allah and His Messenger. Let me ask flat out, are you a hadith rejector?

[Zzz_]

The evidence from both the Qur’aan and Sunnah are of the same level and must be followed equally. Both the Qur’aan and Sunnah are Revelation (Wahy) from Allaah and must be followed. Allaah says concerning His Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) (interpretation of the meaning):


“Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

It is only a Revelation revealed”

[al-Najm 53:4-3]


It was narrated from al-Miqdaam ibn Ma’dikarib that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Beware! I have been given the Qur’aan and something like it, yet the time is coming when a man replete on his couch will say: ‘Keep to the Qur’aan; what you find in it to be permissible treat as permissible, and what you find in it to be prohibited treat as prohibited.’”

(Narrated by Abu Dawood, 4606; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani – may Allah have mercy on him – in Saheeh Sunan Abi Dawood, 3848).

Secondly:

Allaah has enjoined that His Messenger is to be obeyed independently of the Qur’aan. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority” [al-Nisa’ 4:59]

“And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad) gives you, take it; and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it)” [al-Hashr 59:7]


And often times we don't see the wisdom behind something until it's too late. And here's some examples of the wisdom behind not traveling alone outside the city.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...b7ad629e4920eb

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.77a41c89df5a

https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/27/polit...hts/index.html

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/indi...de-him-1796089

[beleiver]

Wow. What don't you understand. We have the Sunnah of the Prophet s.a.a.w. We are not relying on "men to form our laws and misguide us". We are relying on Allah and His Messenger. Let me ask flat out, are you a hadith rejector?

If i accepted that rule as Islam , it would make me a Quran denier..

[Misbah-Abd]

If i accepted that rule as Islam , it would make me a Quran denier..

Quit being ambiguous. Are you a hadith rejector? And are you one of the Quraniyoon? Yes or no. We need to know so we understand what we are dealing with.

[beleiver]

I will have google to see what a Quraniyoon is and let you know.
for now i am of the understanding what defines Islam and all Law must be from the Quran, the rest is like advice or a guide.

And the people and companions at the time followed and obeyed Mohamed(pbuh) only in the sense of if he said build a Mosqe there, they built a Mosque there or if he said take this of the spoils they took it and if he said you cant have that they couldnt have that..He was a messenger and leader not the Creator of Truth.

[Misbah-Abd]

I will have google to see what a Quraniyoon is and let you know.
for now i am of the understanding what defines Islam and all Law must be from the Quran, the rest is like advice or a guide.

And the people and companions at the time followed and obeyed Mohamed(pbuh) only in the sense of if he said build a Mosqe there, they built a Mosque there or if he said take this of the spoils they took it and if he said you cant have that they couldnt have that..He was a messenger and leader not the Creator of Truth.

You were right to say your religion is "Jedi" and not Muslim. Your understanding is flawed, deviant and arrogant. You couldn't even spell "believer" as your name properly. Let this be a warning to the Muslims on here.

[Zzz_]

I will have google to see what a Quraniyoon is and let you know.

https://islamqa.info/en/3440

The misguided sect of al-Qur’aaniyyeen - islamqa.info assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahThere is a deviant group of people who claim to follow the Quran onlyand not the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet SAW. Please provide u...

[Zafran]

for now i am of the understanding what defines Islam and all Law must be from the Quran, the rest is like advice or a guide.

No....the Quran came within a context - to a community of believers (known as companions/sahahba and the family of the prophet also known as Ahul bayet which includes the wives of the prophet). These people taught through muttwatir (corroborated) evidence the main parts of the deen like the Quran, 5 pillars and certain things that are prohibited and obligations upon the individual Muslim and community.

The Quran was revealed not once but 23 years and the context and history is important. that is why there is Hadith, Usul fiqh, Grammer, mantiq and other sciences in interpreting the Quran and the sunnah - both are revelation.

And the people and companions at the time followed and obeyed Mohamed(pbuh) only in the sense of if he said build a Mosqe there, they built a Mosque there or if he said take this of the spoils they took it and if he said you cant have that they couldnt have that..He was a messenger and leader not the Creator of Truth

where did you get this from? all this information was it in the Quran? He also taught them how to pray - What Ramadan was, zakat, Hajj, Enjoining good and forbidding evil, character development and manners. He is the mercy on all of humanity

"Indeed, in this [Quran] is notification for a worshiping people. And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds." (Quran: 21:106-107)

"There has certainly come to you a Messenger from among yourselves. Grievous to him is what you suffer; [he is] concerned over you [i.e., your guidance] and to the believers is kind and merciful." (Quran: 9:128)

"Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much." (Quran33:21)

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It is another question i have , especially praying in a language i dont even understand, I do understand why it would be best to learn Arabic and pray like the Prophet, but untill i do i pray my way and i certainly beleive it helps me.

I'm a non arab like most of the Muslims on earth who are - we have learnt the prayers in arabic and understand there meanings - its not hard if you can do other things for the world then learning the prayers is not difficult - there are plenty of teachers out there as well.

[Nikki1234]

There is no need for an explanation.Few words will suffice,which are:
If every woman in the world took a male relative with her outside and never left her house except that she has a male relative with her,will the number of rapes that occur daily not fall down by a mile?

soooo are you saying that it's normal for men to be rapists? Are you saying that its not possible for men to lower their gaze? Are you saying that because society sexualizes women so much they shouldn't leave there homes alone? Soooo do I take my brother with me to the OGBYN to get a papsmear? How would you feel if you were forced to be in the house all the time and never have time alone outside of the house? This is a form of oppression not protection. If you really want to protect sisters from rape, teach your brothers that women are not objects. Teach them that a women looks good for herself its not a come rape me sign. Encourage men that DATE RAPE is not acceptable. Stop blaming women for the poor decisions of men. What happend to Lowering the gaze? Teach men that No is No. There is No such thing as mixed signals when it comes to rape. Teach the men to want for women what they want for themselves.

[Zafran]

soooo are you saying that it's normal for men to be rapists?

Nope nobody said that but if wienstein and Trump around the corner then God help you and have fun teaching them to respect women.

[MuhammadHamza1]

Read this paragraph copied from Islamqa.It explains alot.
With regard to a woman going out of her house, according to sharee’ah it is not conditional upon her being accompanied by her husband or mahram as long as she is trustworthy and she goes to places where there is no fear for her, and the route she takes is safe. The presence of a mahram is a condition when she is travelling, but she does not have to be accompanied by a mahram everywhere she goes in the city – unless there is some evil or fitnah (temptation, tribulation) involved in her going even a short distance, in which case a woman should not go out on her own. Then it is better to be on the safe side and not go out unless she is with her husband or someone who can protect her and take care of her.

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As for why you cannot say prayer in language other than Arabic is because Allah has said that this is an Arabic Quran.The Quran in Arabic is a miracle.A translation is different.I do not need to explain the fact that translation is not perfect to Christian considering the many inaccurate translations of the New Testament.Even the Old Testament.Where Christians mistranslated many words.

[beleiver]

No....the Quran came within a context - to a community of believers (known as companions/sahahba and the family of the prophet also known as Ahul bayet which includes the wives of the prophet). These people taught through muttwatir (corroborated) evidence the main parts of the deen like the Quran, 5 pillars and certain things that are prohibited and obligations upon the individual Muslim and community.

The Quran was revealed not once but 23 years and the context and history is important. that is why there is Hadith, Usul fiqh, Grammer, mantiq and other sciences in interpreting the Quran and the sunnah - both are revelation.


where did you get this from? all this information was it in the Quran? He also taught them how to pray - What Ramadan was, zakat, Hajj, Enjoining good and forbidding evil, character development and manners. He is the mercy on all of humanity

"Indeed, in this [Quran] is notification for a worshiping people. And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds." (Quran: 21:106-107)

"There has certainly come to you a Messenger from among yourselves. Grievous to him is what you suffer; [he is] concerned over you [i.e., your guidance] and to the believers is kind and merciful." (Quran: 9:128)

"Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much." (Quran33:21)

I am getting it all from the Quran, my main point is it states numerous times how Allahas word as revealed to the Messenger (pbuh) is complete, perfected and detalied..
There is much emphasis on how Islam was revealed to the Propets before and how the people went astray.
Allha is Creator of the law of Truth that applies to all mankind, Mohamed (pbuh) was his messenger and leader of the people..He didnt create the Law but advised how it was applied..

One Quote from the Quran were he says to take what is given and leave what is forbidden , wasnt in the context that he was creating the Law but dividing up the spoils after a battle..He was to be obeyed in the sense that if he said mount up we are going into battle the people followed his orders, if he said dig a treanch , the people dug a trench..

Now really dont mean to disrespect the Scholars and the companions nor what evolved as Islam , i totally get and admire how it evolved in such an open sourced and documented way so we are all free to read and take note and the Truth is there for those with eyes to see, Islam is uniuqe in this regard and a reason i do beleive.
But in my mind the Quran in the foundation , the building block, and when it says its a clear complete and detailed works, then if its not in the Quran i have to take it as an addition made by man , not to ignore or dissmiss but not a fundemental universal Law that must be followed.

I see this rule as problematic , sound advice yes, but not a universal Law..Zero tollerance to rapists is a fundemtal Law as its clear and conscise and in the Quran and makes sense.



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I'm a non arab like most of the Muslims on earth who are - we have learnt the prayers in arabic and understand there meanings - its not hard if you can do other things for the world then learning the prayers is not difficult - there are plenty of teachers out there as well.

Yes, I started praying with Islamic prayers influencing my words and i get now why its best to learn Arabic, i am trying to learn the Arabic, but there are no Muslims where i live, and i have little time , slowly slowly, Inshalla..

And may God forgive my spelling , my spell check has stopped and i am not the acedemic type.

[beleiver]

Read this paragraph copied from Islamqa.It explains alot.
With regard to a woman going out of her house, according to sharee’ah it is not conditional upon her being accompanied by her husband or mahram as long as she is trustworthy and she goes to places where there is no fear for her, and the route she takes is safe. The presence of a mahram is a condition when she is travelling, but she does not have to be accompanied by a mahram everywhere she goes in the city – unless there is some evil or fitnah (temptation, tribulation) involved in her going even a short distance, in which case a woman should not go out on her own. Then it is better to be on the safe side and not go out unless she is with her husband or someone who can protect her and take care of her.

That makes perfect sense, but i think in cases it goes too far, for example i was reading through another thread where a man was worried about her wife travelling a long distance to see her family, he was unable to travel and was afraid it was a big sin letting his wife travel alone..
In Saudi for example i think there is even punishment for women travelling alone, where its that extreme the laws actually make harrasing women mandatory..
There is no clear cut rule that can work for all situations which is why in my heart there is no clear rule in the Quran, and why its good to look to hadith for guidance, but it becomes a problem when clearcut rules are enforced for all situations when they are not clearley prescribed by Allah, and he does know best..

Thanks for this thread its helped me get my head round a problem i have had with Islam.



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As for why you cannot say prayer in language other than Arabic is because Allah has said that this is an Arabic Quran.The Quran in Arabic is a miracle.A translation is different.I do not need to explain the fact that translation is not perfect to Christian considering the many inaccurate translations of the New Testament.Even the Old Testament.Where Christians mistranslated many words.

Even though i do still pray partly in English, over time i have seen why its better in Arabic, for example the 'beneficant the merciful' doesnt transalte, the Arabic has a much deeper meaning there are no english words for. It took me a while to understand and a simple thing like that is important.
That said i still feel i receive great benefits even with my improvised prayer in English, but i see the reasons to improve.

[99sobi]

With all due respect, i find it hard to agree with Sheikh Maududi's commentary, and i cant help but think beleiving a mans word over Allahas is a kind of Shirk thats going down the road of corruption all other releigions suffered.
Its still not clear and implies the Quran is incomplete. yet it sates otherwise.
To be honest when i read the Quran with main stream Islam in mind i cant help thinking Allaha is talking about Modern Islam the same way he talks of the Jews and non beleivers, no offence intended..

Here are a few random Quotes so you might better understand my query..

6:38 If you really want to see the signs of Allah, just look at any animal that walks upon the earth and any bird that flies in the air; they too are the communities like you. We have not left out anything from the Book in determining the courses of their lives. They all shall be gathered before

6:114 Say: Should I seek a judge other than Allah, when He is the One Who has revealed this Book (The Qur'an) with full details? Those whom We gave the Book, before you, know very well that it is revealed to you from your Rabb with the Truth; therefore, you should not be of those who have doubts.

7: 52 For We have certainly brought them a Book which provides clear details based on knowledge and which is a guidance and blessing for the true believers.

17.12 We have made the night and the day as two signs. We enshrouded the night with darkness and gave light to the day, to enable you to seek the bounty of your Rabb, and that you may compute the years and count the numbers. Thus, We have set forth all things in detail.

11:1 Alif Lam Ra. This Book, whose verses are perfected and issued in detail by the One Who is All-Wise, All-Aware.

41. 3 A Book whereof the verses are explained in detail a Qur'an in Arabic for people who understand.

12.111 There is a lesson in these stories of former people for the men of common sense. This story of Yusuf revealed in the Qur'an is not an invented tale, but a confirmation of previous scriptures - a detailed exposition of all things, and is a guidance and blessing for the people who believe.

The tafsir is not preferred over the Qur'an. The tafsir is a commentary that is written by the scholars of Islam who have studied it for decades. Their tafsir allows us to understand the context behind the Qur'anic verses, explaining ahadeeth etc, it is not an "addition" to the Qur'an.

66: 1 O Prophet! Why do you make something unlawful, which Allah has made lawful to you in seeking to please your wives? Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

64. Say: Allah delivereth you from this and from all affliction. Yet ye attribute partners unto Him.
65. Say: He is able to send punishment upon you from above you or from beneath your feet, or to bewilder you with dissension and make you taste the tyranny one of another. See how We display the revelations so that they may understand.
66. Thy people (O Muhammad) have denied it, though it is the Truth. Say: I am not put in charge of you.

With regards to the first verse of At Tahrim you quoted, what is your point? There is context to this (namely that the Prophet forbade himself from having honey because his wives didn't like him, so Allah chastised him for forbidding something which is permissible (and encouraged) for him)

With regards to the second part, it says in many ayat that the Prophet is only a warner and a sender of glad tidings. He is not in charge of anyone to force them to listen to him; he is not a watcher over anyone. His job is just to send the message of Islam

[beleiver]

@99sobi I think the point i was trying to make is the main reason for this guardian ruling stems from what the prophet(pbuh) said about travelling in a couple of hadiths, if he cant forbid honey how can he forbid travelling alone?

But of course we can reflect on what he said as guidance, but it desnt make it a sound foundation of Law unless its a clear Revalation from Allah?

I am sure in the times he was living and in many situations its a great idea to have a guardian but not as a rule to be enforced for all the people for all of time.

[Zafran]

I am getting it all from the Quran, my main point is it states numerous times how Allahas word as revealed to the Messenger (pbuh) is complete, perfected and detalied..

like this

4.59. O you who believe! Obey God and obey the Messenger, and those from among you who are invested with authority; and if you are to dispute among yourselves about anything, refer it to God and the Messenger, if indeed you believe in God and the Last Day. This is the best (for you), and fairest in the end


Its important to understand the context and the Quran in full which is the Quran itself and the messenger,the people who Know/authority. Tell me if you dont follow any methodological tools that were grounded with the prophet and companions/his family then what are you using arabic Grammar?Logic? Testimonial evidence (hadith). Aximotic principles (usul ul fiqh), Theology (Kalam)?

One Quote from the Quran were he says to take what is given and leave what is forbidden , wasnt in the context that he was creating the Law but dividing up the spoils after a battle..He was to be obeyed in the sense that if he said mount up we are going into battle the people followed his orders, if he said dig a treanch , the people dug a trench..

How do you know the context the Quran is talking about? why, what, who - that is when you need the prophet pbuh and the people who were with him companions when revelation came.

Now really dont mean to disrespect the Scholars and the companions nor what evolved as Islam , i totally get and admire how it evolved in such an open sourced and documented way so we are all free to read and take note and the Truth is there for those with eyes to see, Islam is uniuqe in this regard and a reason i do beleive.

Very mystical but you need solid Epistemological grounding within the Quran and sunnah - One man is history (yourself) isn't exactly solid ground compared to the direct followers of revelation (the prophet, his family and companions) the many genius minds after (scholars) and there muttwatir (corroborated or mass transmitted) actions and reports.

You wouldn't do that with medicine or science or history then why do it the source of meaning of life?

As stated before without the context of the Quran one is blind - its the reason why nobody before the 20th century ever came up with the idea to just follow ones own subjective opinion on such a serious matter.

But in my mind the Quran in the foundation , the building block, and when it says its a clear complete and detailed works, then if its not in the Quran i have to take it as an addition made by man , not to ignore or dissmiss but not a fundemental universal Law that must be followed.

see above the verse of the Quran I quoted (4:59) - No idea where "universal law" came from is that in the Quran or is that an addition? Is that Immanuel Kant?

Yes, I started praying with Islamic prayers influencing my words and i get now why its best to learn Arabic, i am trying to learn the Arabic, but there are no Muslims where i live, and i have little time , slowly slowly, Inshalla..

Fair enough.

[beleiver]

@Zafran thanks for your reply, there is food for thought and points i will adress later in more detail , Inshallha, but first the 'universal law' i am a bit shocked a muslim would ask.

What is the Quran if it isnt a book of universal law for all people for all times so they can best submit to the will of the creator?

One example (though there are many) when talking of keeping duty to Allaha , it goes on to say the heavens and the earth were created by Him in Truth, High be he above all else associatied with Him.

For one , the Truth is a universal law, no? and the Quran is a book of Truth? And isnt Allaha the source of all Truth?

[azc]

The perfected way to pray is in the Sunnah agreed, but as there is no compulsion in Islam, I suppose Allah is saying its still possible to submit to Allah as long as you remember Him and pray
and live the righetous life and follow Truth?

It is another question i have , especially praying in a language i dont even understand, I do understand why it would be best to learn Arabic and pray like the Prophet, but untill i do i pray my way and i certainly beleive it helps me.


I started a thread with questions regarding prayer, i will continue the disscussion there rather than take this thread off topic, if you like?

Pray salah in Arabic whether or not you understand Arabic

[beleiver]

like this

4.59. O you who believe! Obey God and obey the Messenger, and those from among you who are invested with authority; and if you are to dispute among yourselves about anything, refer it to God and the Messenger, if indeed you believe in God and the Last Day. This is the best (for you), and fairest in the end


Its important to understand the context and the Quran in full which is the Quran itself and the messenger,the people who Know/authority. Tell me if you dont follow any methodological tools that were grounded with the prophet and companions/his family then what are you using arabic Grammar?Logic? Testimonial evidence (hadith). Aximotic principles (usul ul fiqh), Theology (Kalam)?

I have and read the Pickthall translation, it puts the context of the verse and has a nice introduction outlying the Prophets (pbuh) history, I have read and listened to many arguments and counter arguments from both sides and ultimatley , I pray for guidance , for Allaha to increase my knowlage and guide me on the right path, and in my mind i am clear he has no partners and its best if i decide the Truth for my self.
And of course I read the Quran, Its the complete, clear and detailed Truth on how we as a speciese are to find Peace, so naturally if a rule is not in it i treat it with susspicion, as the good book advises.
If i look at 4.59 the previous page tells how Islam had previously gone astray, beleiving invented lies , accepting partners its all there in that context..

How do you know the context the Quran is talking about? why, what, who - that is when you need the prophet pbuh and the people who were with him companions when revelation came.

Same again i read what the verse was about and read the whole verse.
I think i have adressed most these points previously in this thread, but the context of the Hadith where the Prophet(pbuh) does advise for guardians is one at a time of war, the other on a pilgrimage, which of course makes sense, it doesnt justify adding or inventing a rule for all the people all the time, which would lead to oppression and an unworkable dilemma..It would mean the numerous ayats where its says the Quran is complete, clear and detailed are wrong.

Very mystical but you need solid Epistemological grounding within the Quran and sunnah - One man is history (yourself) isn't exactly solid ground compared to the direct followers of revelation (the prophet, his family and companions) the many genius minds after (scholars) and there muttwatir (corroborated or mass transmitted) actions and reports.

People have been questioning these rulings from Hadiths as i have for 1000+ years, Islam has split into countless sects, one sect killed the Prophets(pbuh) family, all i know to be True is the Quran, I will use that as the foundation of Truth and look at the rest with intrest and an open mind, but refuse to follow any other than the word of Allaha. His book is clear complete and detailed, nothing need be added, other than advice.

You wouldn't do that with medicine or science or history then why do it the source of meaning of life?

Yes I do do that with medecine and science, this might be a long reply but i can draw a parralell with this to how corrupt the world is and that corruption has spread to everthing.

Medecine is ruled by big pharma corporations we are talking major bucks here in the trillions, The war on drugs was like a war on medecine where the mafia cornered the market, not only can the evil one make tons of tax free dollar to fund black projects, they demonised , outlawed effective natural medecine that has been used from the beggining of recorded history, and further the power of millitary, prison industrial complexes, divide communities and generally cause mischeif in the land.
My children were not vaccinated, long before the internet, i read many books, decided against, they dont know their doctor, they are very seldom ill, when they are ill we see a herbalist first, (ex parcticing doc who after 15 years saw the damage Pharma was doing and went herbal).
One case when we did take one child to a doctor for child croup, the doc said he had asthma and said he need a full face mask ventalin inhailer, we said we will get a seccond opinion and hey presto he did indeed have croup, easy remedy, no life long addiction to ventalin at the cost of 1000$$$. He is helathy, he has NEVER shown any signs of Asthma..
The lies we have been told about the vaccines is beyond reason and way beyond a doctors duty to inform the Truth before consent.
The only other person i actually know in real life that didnt vaccinate that wasnt a hippy type was in fact a pediatrician, they see the damege, but she couldnt make a fuss and kept it quiet , as her well paid job would be in jeopardy.
I could go on and on about medecine, how they use us as guinepigs and cash cows, how real safe medecine is prohibited and how they suppress open scientific research and study, silence and defame critics and genuine Doctors with a conscience...Big pharma will make more $ making us ill than making us better.

It warns in the Quran how Satan will deceive us, with his weapons and his wealth, how he will corrupt..How Islam was corrupted so many times before , he can do it again and certainly do it with the medecine proffesion, so no i dont blindly follow a doctor like i dont blindly follow anyone other than the Word of Allaha through my heart and mind.
I am not saying all doctors are bad nor all scholars, but i heed the clear warnings.

As stated before without the context of the Quran one is blind - its the reason why nobody before the 20th century ever came up with the idea to just follow ones own subjective opinion on such a serious matter.

History was written by the victors, i dont trust it either..But how many sects have split from Ilsam? i was just reading about hadith rejector sects that date from when the Hadiths were compiled, people have questiond the authorty besides Allahas after the Prophets(pbuh) death ever since, there were wars, assasinations there is a long, long history of it, but in all the struggle i have to give it to the scholars for preseving the word of Allha so today with the tech at our findertips, we can all find the Truth if we seek it.

see above the verse of the Quran I quoted (4:59) - No idea where "universal law" came from is that in the Quran or is that an addition? Is that Immanuel Kant?



Fair enough.

[beleiver]

Quit being ambiguous. Are you a hadith rejector? And are you one of the Quraniyoon? Yes or no. We need to know so we understand what we are dealing with.

I had a google, very intresting thanks, but sorry its not a yes or no answer, I love the science behind the hafith and the work people went to accuratly record it as possible and preserve the Prophets (pbuh) characature and such, but i cant trust it over the Quran, no way.

You were right to say your religion is "Jedi" and not Muslim. Your understanding is flawed, deviant and arrogant. You couldn't even spell "believer" as your name properly. Let this be a warning to the Muslims on here.

Inshalla i will do Ramadan and learn the shabada in arabic this month and chage my relegion sig and pray for better guidance, in Arabic..
If you will accept me as brother then great, if not no worries you will be just a brother that dissagrees me, and i will continue to just fear Allaha.

[Zafran]

f i look at 4.59 the previous page tells how Islam had previously gone astray, beleiving invented lies , accepting partners its all there in that context..

Nope that is not what the Verse is saying - it labels 3 authorities, you need the authorities as the Quran says, who are they? The Quran is detailed and tells you who to follow the prophet and those who know.

People have been questioning these rulings from Hadiths as i have for 1000+ years, Islam has split into countless sects, one sect killed the Prophets(pbuh) family, all i know to be True is the Quran, I will use that as the foundation of Truth and look at the rest with intrest and an open mind, but refuse to follow any other than the word of Allaha. His book is clear complete and detailed, nothing need be added, other than advice.

Nope testimonial evidence that is muttawatir not Hadith (Like praying 5 times, what Ramadan is, what is zakat etc) those have never been rejected by any sect including the Mutazalie, shia and Khawarij.

Hadith has an entire science around it which is thanks to the scholars but not school of thought or sect just took from the Quran - they follow the Quran which says to follow Allah (Quran itself) Prophet Muhammad pbuh (sunnah) and the people who Know (companions, family of the prophet and scholars). The Quran is in Arabic and Grammar is Important to understand the Quran so that is a science - then there is testimonial evidence/ hadith so that is a science - then there axiomatic principles of the Quran or also known as Usul ul Fiqh. There is theology (Kalam) etc etc.

Medecine is ruled by big pharma corporations we are talking major bucks

No I'm talking about the scientific methodology of medical science - Nobody can debate how the penicillin, antibiotics and many cures that have been found thanks to the scientific method. That last 100 years is witness to that. Not some shady practice by capitalist firms.

I am not saying all doctors are bad nor all scholars, but i heed the clear warnings.

You got 1000 years of scholarship and no sect is preaching what your preaching they all agreed with the Quran and the authorities it calls for. Same applies with corroborated history eg Battles, discoveries, empires etc - science medicine, economy, technology and transport. Islam and its sciences.

History was written by the victors, i dont trust it either..But how many sects have split from Ilsam?

so you dont think world war 2 ever happened - Cleopatra existed or 1066 was when the battle of Hastings occurred???

The splits of Islam were to do with politics (shia) Excommunication (Khawarij) Reason vs Faith/ Free will vs determinism/Ethics and God - nothing to do with just going with Quran or religious foundations - non of them had the same view you have.

i was just reading about hadith rejector sects that date from when the Hadiths were compiled, people have questiond the authorty besides Allahas after the Prophets(pbuh) death ever since, there were wars, assasinations there is a long, long history of it, but in all the struggle i have to give it to the scholars for preseving the word of Allha so today with the tech at our findertips, we can all find the Truth if we seek it.

Not talking about hadiths but Muttwatir corroborated reports and actions that have to do with Islamic foundations - no disagreements there.

- - - Updated - - -

thanks for your reply, there is food for thought and points i will adress later in more detail , Inshallha, but first the 'universal law' i am a bit shocked a muslim would ask.

What is the Quran if it isnt a book of universal law for all people for all times so they can best submit to the will of the creator?

where does it say that in the Quran - where is the term universal law? are you mixing that with sharia? - as I said before it sounds Kantian.

[Misbah-Abd]

I had a google, very intresting thanks, but sorry its not a yes or no answer, I love the science behind the hafith and the work people went to accuratly record it as possible and preserve the Prophets (pbuh) characature and such, but i cant trust it over the Quran, no way.



Inshalla i will do Ramadan and learn the shabada in arabic this month and chage my relegion sig and pray for better guidance, in Arabic..
If you will accept me as brother then great, if not no worries you will be just a brother that dissagrees me, and i will continue to just fear Allaha.

May Allah make it easy for you and make us all brothers on the Straight Way.

[beleiver]

@Zafran, i am a little confusefd, are you saying all scholars and everyone agrees with the ruling about travelling alone, and its actually an enforcable law? or a recognised sin or what?

I really didnt think there was consensus?

- - - Updated - - -

[Zafran]

@Zafran, i am a little confusefd, are you saying all scholars and everyone agrees with the ruling about travelling alone, and its actually an enforcable law? or a recognised sin or what?

I really didnt think there was consensus?

- - - Updated - - -

where? quoting helps.

[beleiver]

where? quoting helps.

The thread title, does Islam dissallow the woman to leave the house alone?

[Zafran]

The thread title, does Islam dissallow the woman to leave the house alone?

Nope but in certain journeys especially long voyages she should take precautions - one of them is going with somebody she trust/mahram - for obvious reasons.

[beleiver]

Nope but in certain journeys especially long voyages she should take precautions - one of them is going with somebody she trust/mahram - for obvious reasons.

So, there is no clear enforceable law agreed by all scholars/jurists, like in Saudi? but most agree its advised but women can travel freely if they choose?

[Zafran]

So, there is no clear enforceable law agreed by all scholars/jurists, like in Saudi? but most agree its advised but women can travel freely if they choose?

No this has nothing to do with state unless the circumstances call for it. This is to do with a Qadi and Jurists, before the concept of the nation state people governed themselves as most states did not have the political or technological power like modern nation states - that have enormous power and can become tyrannical very easily.

What do you mean if the women chooses? can a man leave his wife for a long period of term because he chooses? can a child choose his/her own gender if she or he chooses? can a person choose to have pre marital sex or engage in public lewdness? what about smoking drugs or drinking alcohol - or is one going to try to be a God conscious person?

saudi and Iran, France, US are nation states and govern by whatever they see fit - have there own laws grounded in specific history, experience and place. One needs to take that in account.

[beleiver]

Ok will try to put it another way, if there is no dispute with the family and no one has asked anyone in authority for help to track down and stop their wife or daughter or family member while travelling, is there any concencus any one else has the right to harras or infringe the rights of a woman traveling alone?

[Zafran]

Ok will try to put it another way, if there is no dispute with the family and no one has asked anyone in authority for help to track down and stop their wife or daughter or family member while travelling, is there any concencus any one else has the right to harras or infringe the rights of a woman traveling alone?

what are you trying to get at here - if you want the answer to be that Islamic Jurist allowed women to travel in long distances for whatever the whims desired - the answer is no - the same applies to men - men could not leave there family behind for long periods of time unless circumstances allowed for it. For both sexes eg necessity or the journey was safe.

Your trying to enforce a liberal paradigm here by the way - that is why "choice" and "infringement" "rights of women" are called out here. Although these are not clearly defined.

[beleiver]

what are you trying to get at here - if you want the answer to be that Islamic Jurist allowed women to travel in long distances for whatever the whims desired - the answer is no - the same applies to men - men could not leave there family behind for long periods of time unless circumstances allowed for it. For both sexes eg necessity or the journey was safe.

Your trying to enforce a liberal paradigm here by the way - that is why "choice" and "infringement" "rights of women" are called out here. Although these are not clearly defined.

I am against enforcing anything, i really think its good sensible advice but no one should be able to dictate to anyone else how they travel, If i was to raise my Daughter to be Musilm or in the case of my wife, i would want her to be able to travel freely, with out being harrased by anyone in authority or the community just because she is travelling alone.

I am quite new to Islam and dont really know enough about it to declare in public i am Muslim, Its for this reason i question..

I my self have lived a nomadic life so know loads of women that travel alone, using their common sense they have little problem, but if for example my daughter wants to work and live abroad and not marry the first idiot she meets and wants to persue an independant life, i wouldnt want to support and promote an ideology or way of life that oppresses her for being a woman.
Call it liberal or what ever but to me oppression of any kind goes against Islam.

[Zafran]

I am against enforcing anything,

That is not true - there are plenty of things that you wouldn't want your son, daughter wife, family members, nation doing - maximizing freedom isnt the end goal itself. Being God conscious is.

i really think its good sensible advice but no one should be able to dictate to anyone else how they travel, If i was to raise my Daughter to be Musilm or in the case of my wife, i would want her to be able to travel freely, with out being harrased by anyone in authority or the community just because she is travelling alone.

Of course you should as stated before freedom in itself is not the end goal. If one is going to take an unsafe path that is not beneficial or in any way necessary then one will not just advice but enforce it. Going to a dangerous place, wasting ones life. As I stated before there is no God conscious here - its just maximizing choices with zero purpose. It entirely depends on the end goal and what is the purpose of travel.

Same applies to men.

I my self have lived a nomadic life so know loads of women that travel alone, using their common sense they have little problem, but if for example my daughter wants to work and live abroad and not marry the first idiot she meets and wants to persue an independent life, i wouldnt want to support and promote an ideology or way of life that oppresses her for being a woman.

"Independent life" like changing her Gender? having a nefarious occupation? hanging around with gangsters and thugs. The whole point you linking "oppression" with anyone that stops a man and women doing something that they want is a liberal definition. A man and women are responsible to the creator of the world and the people around them - "independence" and "freedom" itself is not the end goal.

Your also claim its because shes a women - Men and women are restricted in Islam (as any worldview) - they cant drink alcohol, pre martial sex, leave there family for no reason. Men and women have certain rights and responsibility because of the clear and apparent differences. Equity needs to be taken in consideration as well.

Islam is also not an ideology, unlike Liberalism of course which has no purpose to it at all expect to maximize freedom.

what about the Universal law that you always talk about - is that not meant to be enforced - is it not a law? what is the point of it at all if your just going to follow Liberal paradigms anyway - especially when the "universal law" contradicts the liberal goals of maximizing freedom?

[MuhammadHamza1]

Be sure to read this paragraph copied from islamqa.info.
With regard to a woman going out of her house, according to sharee’ah it is not conditional upon her being accompanied by her husband or mahram as long as she is trustworthy and she goes to places where there is no fear for her, and the route she takes is safe. The presence of a mahram is a condition when she is travelling, but she does not have to be accompanied by a mahram everywhere she goes in the city – unless there is some evil or fitnah (temptation, tribulation) involved in her going even a short distance, in which case a woman should not go out on her own. Then it is better to be on the safe side and not go out unless she is with her husband or someone who can protect her and take care of her.

[cinnamonrolls1]

Dude, a women couldnt leave her house or go on long journeys alone for obvs safety reasons. Whilst the ruling still applies today, we have more security now.

[Mahir Adnan]

a believer woman deserves honor. her honor must be protected by any means. https://islamqa.info/en/101520

A woman should not travel except with a mahram, even if it is a short trip - islamqa.info I know that a woman is not permitted to travel without a mahram with her. I would like to know what is meant by traveling exactly. Where should we start measuri...

[azc]

In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

Generally, it is impermissible for a woman to travel the distance of three days (equivalent to 48 miles) without her husband or a Mahram (unmarriageable kin) accompanying her.

There are many clear narrations of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) in this regard.

1) Sayyiduna Abu Sa’id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Let no woman travel for more than three days unless her husband or a Mahram is with her.” (Sahih Muslim)

2) Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “A woman must not travel for three days except with a Mahram.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 1036 & Sahih Muslim)

3) Sayyiduna Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “It is unlawful for a woman who believes in Allah and the last day that she travels the distance of one day and one night without a Mahram accompanying her.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 1038)

4) Sayyiduna Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “’A woman must not travel except with a Mahram and a man must not enter upon her except if she has a Mahram.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 1763)

Imam Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) states in his monumental commentary of Sahih Muslim:

“There are many such narrations that assert the impermissibility of a woman travelling without a Mahram. These narrations vary in their wordings. The narration of Ibn Abbas in Sahih al-Bukhari says that a woman must not travel without a Mahram, but it adds nothing else. However, the other narrations, in Sahih al-Bukhari and elsewhere, mention lengths of journeys for which a Mahram is required – some of the narrations specify three days, some two, some one, and some even less.”
Imam Nawawi (Allah have mercy on him) also mentions that the difference found in these narrations is due to the different questioners and the places wherein the answers were given to them. al-Bayhaqi said: “It is as though the messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) was asked regarding travelling for three days without a Mahram, and he refused. He was then asked about her travelling for two days, and regarding one day, etc and each narrator related from him what he heard.” (See: Commentary of Sahih Muslim by Imam Nawawi, 1015)

According to the Hanafi Ijtihad, the distance that is considered here is three days and three nights, for the narrations mentioning three days & three nights have reached the level of certainty. All the Companions who narrated other than three days also narrate the distance of three days and three nights. The narrations that mention two or one day will be restricted to specific circumstances, such as the fear of more fitna. Hence, they (Hanafi School) considers the narrations that mention three days & three nights as the basis of prohibition. (Zafar Ahmad al-Tahanawi, I’la al-Sunan, V. 10, P. 11)

It must be remarked here that this refers to the distance usually covered by walking or on an animal in three days & three nights (with the usual breaks for resting and eating). Therefore, the restriction of travelling with a Mahram applies if the distance of the journey exceeds this, even if the journey itself is accomplished in a shorter time.

The scholars have differed on the length of this distance. Many scholars are of the opinion that it is 16 Farsakh, and each Farsakh equals three miles, thus totalling to 48 miles. (See: Faydh al-Bari ala Sahih al-Bukhari, 2/397)
http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/7865

[beleiver]

That is not true - there are plenty of things that you wouldn't want your son, daughter wife, family members, nation doing - maximizing freedom isnt the end goal itself. Being God conscious is.

As long as she is not harming herself or others nor putting hers self in a stupid dangerous situation , i could not oppress my own dughter, certainly not in the name of Allaha, He blessed us with freedom of choice, ears to hear, eyes to see, and heart to feel, may He guide her.

Of course you should as stated before freedom in itself is not the end goal. If one is going to take an unsafe path that is not beneficial or in any way necessary then one will not just advice but enforce it. Going to a dangerous place, wasting ones life. As I stated before there is no God conscious here - its just maximizing choices with zero purpose. It entirely depends on the end goal and what is the purpose of travel.

Same applies to men.

Inshalla , she will be conscious of Allaha, But for an imaginary example, say she gets a place in a foreign university say in Barcalona, in my experience (i am fairly well travelled) she would be safer being driven to the airport then getting a Taxi, bus or what ever to her digs and going about her bussiness than say if she lived in a british city like say Birmingham and walked across town at night by her self...The most dangerous situation is allowed in whats called 'Islam' but not the other..Cant you see the problem with ruling, its not universal law for all people for all time, every situation is different there is a reason such a law is created by stupid men not by Allaha. There is a reason why he gifted us with eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart and mind to be guided by His conscioussness for each and every situation.

"Independent life" like changing her Gender? having a nefarious occupation? hanging around with gangsters and thugs. The whole point you linking "oppression" with anyone that stops a man and women doing something that they want is a liberal definition. A man and women are responsible to the creator of the world and the people around them - "independence" and "freedom" itself is not the end goal.

Your also claim its because shes a women - Men and women are restricted in Islam (as any worldview) - they cant drink alcohol, pre martial sex, leave there family for no reason. Men and women have certain rights and responsibility because of the clear and apparent differences. Equity needs to be taken in consideration as well.

Islam is also not an ideology, unlike Liberalism of course which has no purpose to it at all expect to maximize freedom.

The debate is becomming foggy here, i am not sure what mental health issues have with the disccusion?
But my understanding and i think a message lost from the Quran and True Islam is if its causing no harm or loss to any one , it none of their bussines.
If someone sins, advise against it by all means but dont transgress and be forcing your will on others, thats the action of those gone astray and actually comparable with gangsters and thugs whether they have the monopoly of force or not.

"Part of the perfection of one’s Islam is his leaving that which does not concern him.” Mohamed (pbuh)

And if they deny thee, say: Unto me my work, and unto you your work. Ye are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what ye do.

The preceding and following ayats to this are a beauty regarding Allhas sovereignty and why a believer need to worry of the ations of fools and Kafir.

what about the Universal law that you always talk about - is that not meant to be enforced - is it not a law? what is the point of it at all if your just going to follow Liberal paradigms anyway - especially when the "universal law" contradicts the liberal goals of maximizing freedom?

If you want drink strong drink all day every day there will be reaction to that action as sure as night follows day..I believe people should be free to choose, i beleive Allah to be the sovereign and best punisher.

[JustTime]

"Praying the five prayers has to be in Arabic"

What!?

As if GOD cannot understand any other language. GOD knows one's thoughts; one's thoughts are generally in their native tongue.

He understands every language, but he pefers Arabic the language he desginated as that of heaven.

[beleiver]

I can testify He can hear prayers in non Arabic, not even translations, the prayers i used before i learned Islamic ones i taught my wife , her first time she had been contemplaiting selling her house, literally the next day while she was out the front,(rare chance) a guy pulled up and asked if there were any houses for sale on the street...Now what are the chances for that?

I laways felt He could hear and give al-rahim even if i dindt know its name.

[Abz2000]

women go through too much to protect themselves from the urges of men... rape should be a zero tolerance issue.

And vice versa - ref: Ch.12 Yusuf

[Zafran]

As long as she is not harming herself or others nor putting hers self in a stupid dangerous situation , i could not oppress my own dughter, certainly not in the name of Allaha, He blessed us with freedom of choice, ears to hear, eyes to see, and heart to feel, may He guide her.

Different places regard different things harmful. If one is following the sacred law then one would take heed at what the Jurist say about going far on ones own - men and women included.

Inshalla , she will be conscious of Allaha, But for an imaginary example, say she gets a place in a foreign university say in Barcalona, in my experience (i am fairly well travelled) she would be safer being driven to the airport then getting a Taxi, bus or what ever to her digs and going about her bussiness than say if she lived in a british city like say Birmingham and walked across town at night by her self...The most dangerous situation is allowed in whats called 'Islam' but not the other..Cant you see the problem with ruling, its not universal law for all people for all time, every situation is different there is a reason such a law is created by stupid men not by Allaha. There is a reason why he gifted us with eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart and mind to be guided by His conscioussness for each and every situation.

No if she lived in Barcelona she would have to follow the laws of Barcelona - if she went any other place you have to follow the laws of the land. If one follows the sacred law then one would take heed of its rulings and principles.

But my understanding and i think a message lost from the Quran and True Islam is if its causing no harm or loss to any one , it none of their bussines.
If someone sins, advise against it by all means but dont transgress and be forcing your will on others, thats the action of those gone astray and actually comparable with gangsters and thugs whether they have the monopoly of force or not.

Every nation enforces there laws for the protection of the community and the individual. That includes any worldview. Your endorsing Liberal individualism and not promoting Godly society here - which is what the Quran calls for. The sins can be from pre martial sex, adultery and drinking alcohol - As I said it seems there is a contradiction between Universal law and maximizing Individual freedom - which one is it.

If you want drink strong drink all day every day there will be reaction to that action as sure as night follows day..I believe people should be free to choose, i beleive Allah to be the sovereign and best punisher.

drinking alcohol, pre marital sex and adultery are harmful to society and not just the individual. Many societies ban hard drugs for this very reason. As I said you seem to think that enforcing these laws is Oppression - it isnt - its enjoining good and forbidding evil.

Going back to the thread men and women have Hududs (limits) they can range from personal transactions which there is no need to enforce as they up to the individual ) - but other transgressions like drugs, alcohol, or lewd behavior, safety - these have every right to be enforced. That is the whole point of a law.

You also seem to have split between God's Law and individual sins - they are all under the jurisdiction of God. The private and public. The public ones have to enforced by the authorities and the private are not - both will be Judged by God on the day of resurrection.

soon as one chooses to follow a worldview be it Communism, Christianity, Islam, Liberalism - then one should reasonably act within the worldviews bounds - otherwise whats the whole point of following the law?

[beleiver]

I think the point i am trying to make is enforcing a law that is wrong and not from Allaha wont work in real life..
Prhohibition for example doesnt work nor is it practicle, it causes more problems than its supposed to solve..
Look at the world, people have strayed far from the path and are suffering the Tyranny of one another, people have invented lies and others follow them and think they follow Allaha but they are astray, they are following partners..

No one can force their will on another unless there is a victim, that is a crime, that is what gangsters do..

Dont listen to Jurists unless an actual crime with a victim has been commited and a punishment is called for, fear and trust in Allaha and his warnings, if you do right be it for your soul if you do wrong be it against your soul, Allha is the best of Judges..And a clear repeated warning is dont invent lies, the Quran is complete, detailed guidance..

Surah 10 for example is clear on the revalation of Allha is not to be added to nor messed with. Read the whole verse, people have gone astray many a time before.


Surah ten ends beautifly..

Say: O mankind! Now hath the Truth from your Lord come unto you. So whosoever is guided, is guided only for (the food of) his soul, and whosoever erreth erreth only against it. And I am not a warder over you.
And (O Muhammad) follow that which is inspired in thee, and forbear until Allah give judgment. And He is the Best of Judges.

[AllahIsAl-Malik]

I think I found the place for you

http://www.oprah.com/oprahdotcom/house-rules

[beleiver]

Confused, are my posts causing problems? going against any rules?

[azc]

Confused, are my posts causing problems? going against any rules?

Please read forum rules...

[Peacefully]

Since my post got deleted, starting to wonder if this is a board for those brothers and sisters who consider hadith on par with quran. Mans word on par with God's.

[AabiruSabeel]

Mans word on par with God's.

Hadith are no ordinary man's words. They are the saying of the Messenger of Allah, :saws:. Allah :swt: Himself says about him,

By the star when it descends,
Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred,
Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.
It is not but a revelation revealed,
Taught to him by one intense in strength - [Surah An-Najm: 1-5]

The Ahadeeth are also a form of revelation from Allah. The Qur'an and Sunnah are the two authoritative legal sources in Islam. Please read the below thread, it answers all the points raised here by @beleiver and @Peacefully ,
The Legal Status of the Sunnah in Islam

[AllahIsAl-Malik]

We should ban munafiqun. If people are out to subvert the religion, they should be banned. Otherwise this forum is no better than the rest of the internet and this place becomes a place where the munafiquen misguide and deceive people. Whether they themselves are misguided I don't care- they shoudn't be allowed to pose as Muslims and deceive people. Furthermore, I want a forum for Muslims. Non-Muslims have the whole rest of the internet they can go to.

[Zafran]

I think the point i am trying to make is enforcing a law that is wrong and not from Allaha wont work in real life..

many laws in real life work and are practical - traffic laws, environment (not allowed to build on green zones), promoting public good or taxing people to have universal healthcare and education and some countries even have conscription because they dont have enough people in the army. These are enforced.

Prhohibition for example doesnt work nor is it practicle, it causes more problems than its supposed to solve..
Look at the world, people have strayed far from the path and are suffering the Tyranny of one another, people have invented lies and others follow them and think they follow Allaha but they are astray, they are following partners..

I dont think it does, having a police force to stop crime is a good idea, enforcing taxes for universal healthcare and supporting educational institutions is another good idea. So is promoting things that enhance what the society stands for.

No one can force their will on another unless there is a victim, that is a crime, that is what gangsters do..

Every country does this, every institution of learning does this, hospital etc etc. Not criminal or gangsters - actually gangsters get stopped by police which is enforced by the government.

Dont listen to Jurists unless an actual crime with a victim has been commited and a punishment is called for, fear and trust in Allaha and his warnings, if you do right be it for your soul if you do wrong be it against your soul, Allha is the best of Judges..And a clear repeated warning is dont invent lies, the Quran is complete, detailed guidance..

You listen to jurist to know what the sacred law has to say about any issue. That is if you want to follow the scared law.

Surah 10 for example is clear on the revalation of Allha is not to be added to nor messed with. Read the whole verse, people have gone astray many a time before.

dont forget surah 4:59 - read the Quran holistically

"O you who believe, obey Allah, the Messenger, and those in command among you. If you disagree about something, refer it back to Allah and the
Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best thing to do and gives the best result".

- - - Updated - - -

Confused, are my posts causing problems? going against any rules?

Nope

[Peacefully]

I'm smart enough to know better than to consider hadith as a revelation from Allah. No disrespect to anyone. I have tremendous respect for hadith and personally recognize the collections as a secondary authoritative legal sources in Islam, after the Quran. I also recognize that they are fallible, have lies mixed in with its glorious truths from those who wished to sabotage our ummah and or had alterioir motives and I approach them with righteous caution.

[beleiver]

many laws in real life work and are practical - traffic laws, environment (not allowed to build on green zones), promoting public good or taxing people to have universal healthcare and education and some countries even have conscription because they dont have enough people in the army. These are enforced.




I dont think it does, having a police force to stop crime is a good idea, enforcing taxes for universal healthcare and supporting educational institutions is another good idea. So is promoting things that enhance what the society stands for.



Every country does this, every institution of learning does this, hospital etc etc. Not criminal or gangsters - actually gangsters get stopped by police which is enforced by the government.

Lets focus on trafic laws, as a motorist and traveller i know about these..

Of course there should be rules or legislation but that is distinct from actual law we are talking about..imho highways should be governed by a code rather than a rigid "law" as not every situation is the same..
For example a law is a constant so if driving over the speed limit is dangerous, i should be dead many years ago, if child seats are a law , if you dont use one you will die, me and my family should be dead as we never used child car seats as children..Its just sound advice pushed as a law...With revenue collectors enforcing that 'law' by force.
Now, gangsters run protection rakets, if you dont comply with what they say they punish you normally by forced stealing, all the police are doing in many cases like revenue collection for traffic 'offences' is what gangsters do exept they have a monopoly on force.
Londoners still refer to the royal family as the firm, and if their exploits of old like the opium trade and conquests and pillaging of lands are not a form of gangster i dont know what is.

You listen to jurist to know what the sacred law has to say about any issue. That is if you want to follow the scared law.



dont forget surah 4:59 - read the Quran holistically

"O you who believe, obey Allah, the Messenger, and those in command among you. If you disagree about something, refer it back to Allah and the
Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best thing to do and gives the best result".

- - - Updated - - -



Nope

I have no problem listening to jurists to help me understand sacred law but i refuse to let them dictate what that law is..That would be dangerous as i dont know whats in the heart of those jurists, why should i trust them over Allaha and my own senses He blessed me with?

I am very familiar with sura 4:59 but no 'leader' in my life time could every claim to be 'among you' that would imply within the community or a man of the people, most rulers in modern so called democracies live among the oppressors a whole different class to the people.
Where are these scholars and jurists that claim to rule on behalf of Allaha from? either way Allha has no partners..

I read the Quran a good bit' the more i read the more i am drawn to Islam..

Regarding partners in Surah 10 goes in to more detail, it makes the claim Allha created all in truth and detailed his revalations, then goes on to say Allha is your lord and other than His Truth what else is there save error, on how people are turned away, then it states there are no partners and no one can invent a lie against Him, no partners can lead to Truth only Allaha..


35 Say: Is there of your partners (whom ye ascribe unto Allah) one that leadeth to the Truth ? Say: Allah leadeth to the Truth. Is He Who leadeth to the Truth more deserving that He should be followed, or he who findeth not the way unless he (himself) be guided. What aileth you ? How judge ye ?36 Most of them follow not but conjecture. Assuredly conjecture can by no means take the place of truth. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do.37 And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be invented in despite of Allah; but it is a confirmation of that which was before it and an exposition of that which is decreed for mankind - Therein is no doubt - from the Lord of the Worlds.38 Or say they: He hath invented it ? Say: Then bring a surah like unto it, and call (for help) on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful.39 Nay, but they denied that, the knowledge whereof they could not compass, and whereof the interpretation (in events) hath not yet come unto them. Even so did those before them deny. Then see what was the consequence for the wrong-doers!40 And of them is he who believeth therein, and of them is he who believeth not therein, and thy Lord is Best Aware of the corrupters.41 And if they deny thee, say: Unto me my work, and unto you your work. Ye are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what ye do.

If a universal law for all of man kind for all the time could be put into words the Quran would say it, this ruling about women needing guardians is an invention that has not stood the test of time.

I Love Islam but i could not put my hand on my heart and say its not been corruptted.

It was corrupted many times before and always will be, unless we all hold firm to the Rope of Allaha.

[AabiruSabeel]

I have no problem listening to jurists to help me understand sacred law but i refuse to let them dictate what that law is..That would be dangerous as i dont know whats in the heart of those jurists, why should i trust them over Allaha and my own senses He blessed me with?

Allah :swt: Himself asks us to submit to the judgement of His messenger, :saws:. Whatever Rasulullah :saws: has dictated is also part of Islamic law. Anyone who denies that cannot be a Muslim.

Allah :swt: says,

But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission. [An-Nisa: 65]

[beleiver]

Allah :swt: Himself asks us to submit to the judgement of His messenger, :saws:. Whatever Rasulullah :saws: has dictated is also part of Islamic law. Anyone who denies that cannot be a Muslim.

Allah :swt: says,

But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission. [An-Nisa: 65]

Judgement of disputes between his followers and those among him while he was alive i get, but if he couldnt prohibit honey how could he create an actual enforcable law for all the people all the time?

If Allaha wanted he could of revealed that Law plain and simple?
Why would He repeat so many times how clear, detailed and complete His Quran is if He missed some thing so important, later to be added by men who assumed Mohameds advice when asked about travel was supposed to be a law for everyone when it could it of just been advice or judgement he gave, when asked, for that particular time and situation rather than an actual enforcable law for everyone for all time?

[AabiruSabeel]

Why do you have a problem with women having to accompany their male relative during their travels? Why do you say that it was only applicable for that particular time and no more applicable now? Given the widespread corruption of morals nowadays, it is more needed now than at that time.

Islamic laws are universal, for all periods of time and for everyone living everywhere.

[Zafran]

Of course there should be rules or legislation but that is distinct from actual law we are talking about..imho highways should be governed by a code rather than a rigid "law" as not every situation is the same..
For example a law is a constant so if driving over the speed limit is dangerous, i should be dead many years ago, if child seats are a law , if you dont use one you will die, me and my family should be dead as we never used child car seats as children..Its just sound advice pushed as a law...With revenue collectors enforcing that 'law' by force

It would reduce the possibility of death and just because you haven't died or haven't killed anyone it doesn't mean that many people haven't been saved by following the speed limit and the code - its always safer to follow the speed limit, to be on the safe side - There are many laws in countries that one can debate about abortion, political system, taxes etc the point is the law is there so safeguard the individual and the society and large and what it stands - But they will be enforced unless argued otherwise.

I have no problem listening to jurists to help me understand sacred law but i refuse to let them dictate what that law is..That would be dangerous as i dont know whats in the heart of those jurists, why should i trust them over Allaha and my own senses He blessed me with?

The sacred law is based on the Quran and sunnah - one owns view clearly can count if your Mujtahid and aware of the sacred law in full. If not you have to follow the ones who know - the same applies with any subject including medicine, law and politics.

I am very familiar with sura 4:59 but no 'leader' in my life time could every claim to be 'among you' that would imply within the community or a man of the people, most rulers in modern so called democracies live among the oppressors a whole different class to the people.
Where are these scholars and jurists that claim to rule on behalf of Allaha from? either way Allha has no partners.

They dont rule on behalf of Allah swt - Jurist interpret the sacred law - you can be one you just have to take the time out to study - just like if one wants to be a doctor or lawyer.

I Love Islam but i could not put my hand on my heart and say its not been corruptted.

It hasnt been.

It was corrupted many times before and always will be, unless we all hold firm to the Rope of Allaha.

If it was God would send a sign or change the people with better people.

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If a universal law for all of man kind for all the time could be put into words the Quran would say it, this ruling about women needing guardians is an invention that has not stood the test of time.

of course it has and will be enforced depending on safety, the distance and the purpose of travel, it still applies in many situations - just like men cannot stay away from the family for too long - again in depends on purpose and distance and time.

[beleiver]

It would reduce the possibility of death and just because you haven't died or haven't killed anyone it doesn't mean that many people haven't been saved by following the speed limit and the code - its always safer to follow the speed limit, to be on the safe side - There are many laws in countries that one can debate about abortion, political system, taxes etc the point is the law is there so safeguard the individual and the society and large and what it stands - But they will be enforced unless argued otherwise.




The sacred law is based on the Quran and sunnah - one owns view clearly can count if your Mujtahid and aware of the sacred law in full. If not you have to follow the ones who know - the same applies with any subject including medicine, law and politics.




They dont rule on behalf of Allah swt - Jurist interpret the sacred law - you can be one you just have to take the time out to study - just like if one wants to be a doctor or lawyer.



It hasnt been.



If it was God would send a sign or change the people with better people.

- - - Updated - - -




of course it has and will be enforced depending on safety, the distance and the purpose of travel, it still applies in many situations - just like men cannot stay away from the family for too long - again in depends on purpose and distance and time.

I think where we differ on our opinions might stem from the fact i think we are entering end times, and you might under estimate the power of shaytan who i beleive to be gaining control of todays world..Can you name one 'Muslim' country that doesnt practice usury or is dependant on that system if you say Islam has not been corrupted ?

The whole world is corrupt from the top down..If Islam had not been corrupted why all the wars, and why so many different sects, brothers killing brother, where is the unity?

What does the Quran say, its a clear warning how Islam was corrupted before, as well as a guide for all the people for all time.

I will wait for Jesus, and the Iman Mahadi, till they reveal them selves and make clear again what was reveled before, i will not submit to anyone other than the will of the creator, ask Him for guidance and forgiveness in my prayers, hold Rope of Allha, the Quran as truth in my hand and look to the hadith with interest.

Thanks for your well thought out and respectfull replies they have been helpful, i will have a look at what a Mujtahid is and try to better understand how this law system works, so make a more informed desision if i want to openly and publicly embrace what is todays Islam..
For now i think we are going in circles on this topic and wish you the best of peace, and may we meet as brothers on that staright path.

[Umm♥Layth]

I think where we differ on our opinions might stem from the fact i think we are entering end times,

The end times began when the prophet arrived. The corruption you speak of was something the prophet warned us about and is to be expected. It doesn't mean the religion itself is corrupted, it doesn't mean the Quran and Hadith were corrupted, rather, the mentality of people has been corrupted (hence the sects etc). People have been severely deceived (which is why usury is widespread and unavoidable today). You won't get very far in your eschatology studies (end time studies) without hadith.

In order to figure out what time you are in today, you will need to accept the authority hadith has and learn to pair it up with Quran. Also, you may want to study the seerah so that you understand just how hadith and Quran go together. I'm a convert by the way, and I've been where you are. :)

[anatolian]

"Praying the five prayers has to be in Arabic"

What!?

As if GOD cannot understand any other language. GOD knows one's thoughts; one's thoughts are generally in their native tongue.

Its not about God being able to understand us or not. Allah understands us even if we dont say anything. But Allah revealed Quran in Arabic and wants us to read from Quran while performing the ritual prayer and He wants us to use the exact same words he chosed and we are supposed to obey Him. Thats all about it.

[popsthebuilder]

Its not about God being able to understand us or not. Allah understands us even if we dont say anything. But Allah revealed Quran in Arabic and wants us to read from Quran while performing the ritual prayer and He wants us to use the exact same words he chosed and we are supposed to obey Him. Thats all about it.

I am american and read the Quran and also other core sacred texts.....none of which are originally written in English.

Is there a reference in the Quran commanding that prayer be both ritualistic habit in nature, and too, only received from habit and repetition in Arabic?

Thanks in advance.

[noraina]

Assalamu alaykum,

I haven't read through the whole thread, but I just wanted to give my two cents.

In theory, the concept that women are not allowed travel alone can sound oppressive and horrible, but as a Muslim woman myself, and having experienced this as it's practically put into place, nothing could be further from the truth. It's not that a woman can't leave her house on her own, or has to beg her husband or father to be able to do normal things such studying or seeing friends or travelling. This issue isn't a black and white as some would have it.

Now, I know there are families or men who will abuse such statements and oppress their women and prevent them and be unjust to them, but I'm not talking about them, and Islam categorically forbids any type of oppression or injustice.

It's not like I sit at home all day, unable to study or work, or see my friends and family, lol. It doesn't work like that. If I'm going to the library, or somewhere locally, I'll go to my father, say, "Dad, I'm just popping down to the library with so-and-so, I'll be back in an hour" or something like that. And yes, my parents do always want to know where I am, and I didn't leave the house on my own until I was 18, and I'm definitely not allowed to be out once it is dark. And if I'm going to another city, or another country, then my parents will always come with me. And when I get married in'sha'Allah, it'll be the same with my husband. And alhamdulillah I truly appreciate that they are so concerned for my welfare, and are always there for me. And many of my friends think the same.

I have never once felt restricted. When Islam is applied properly, and in a just manner, then you can only see the inherent beauty and wisdom in the commandments of Allah swt. I wouldn't have it any other way.

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And I forgot to mention an important point, regarding the OP, the purpose of the hijab or not travelling alone isn't solely for preventing 'rape'. These 'victim-blaming' attitudes are a major problem.

We should never accept a kind of society where women feel unsafe or vulnerable, sexual harassment can happen to anyone, subhanAllah. You can be covered head to toe, outside in broad-daylight, and face abuse or harassment - it does happen.

Sadly, because of all the corruption and fitnah outside, for a women to travel with a mahram is as important as it has ever been.

[azc]

I am american and read the Quran and also other core sacred texts.....none of which are originally written in English.

Is there a reference in the Quran commanding that prayer be both ritualistic habit in nature, and too, only received from habit and repetition in Arabic?

Thanks in advance.

Does the Quran permit you to recite in non Arabic while praying...?

[popsthebuilder]

Does the Quran permit you to recite in non Arabic while praying...?

I'm asking you, and others who are much more versed in the Quran.

Please provide references.

Other core sacred texts make no such distinction that I have seen. That isn't me saying the Quran does not.

[Zzz_]

I'm asking you, and others who are much more versed in the Quran.

Please provide references.

Other core sacred texts make no such distinction that I have seen. That isn't me saying the Quran does not.

As a non-native you can read the Quran in other languages for understanding and that is perfectly fine. But know that what you are reading is a translation, a selection of words and phrasing according to the understanding of the translator and nothing more. The original meaning will never truly be grasped. Reading the Quran is also a form of worship and the reward of that will not be earned unless it's done in the original language it was revealed in.

--

With regard to reading Qur’aan, the majority say that it is not permissible to read it in any language other than Arabic. The evidence for this is the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):


“Verily, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur’aan…” [Yoosuf 12:2]

and ‘In the plain Arabic language’ [al-Shu’ara’ 26:195].


Moreover, the Qur’aan is a miracle in its wording and its meaning; if it is changed, this is no longer the case, and it is no longer Qur’aan but an interpretation (tafseer). (al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, part 5: A’jami).

https://islamqa.info/en/3471

[anatolian]

I am american and read the Quran and also other core sacred texts.....none of which are originally written in English.

Is there a reference in the Quran commanding that prayer be both ritualistic habit in nature, and too, only received from habit and repetition in Arabic?

Thanks in advance.

Yusuf (2)
Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand.

Ta Ha (113)
And thus have We sent it down an Arabic Quran, and have distinctly set forth therein of threats that they may guard (against evil) or that it may produce a reminder for them.

The Embellishment (3)
Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.


There are some other Ayahs also. Quran says that it is an Arabic Quran. And it is a fardh(must) of Salah (ritual prayer) to read from Quran. My mother tongue is not Arabic too but I must do it as Allah orders it.

[popsthebuilder]

As a non-native you can read the Quran in other languages for understanding and that is perfectly fine. But know that what you are reading is a translation, a selection of words and phrasing according to the understanding of the translator and nothing more. The original meaning will never truly be grasped. Reading the Quran is also a form of worship and the reward of that will not be earned unless it's done in the original language it was revealed in.

--

With regard to reading Qur’aan, the majority say that it is not permissible to read it in any language other than Arabic. The evidence for this is the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):


“Verily, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur’aan…” [Yoosuf 12:2]

and ‘In the plain Arabic language’ [al-Shu’ara’ 26:195].


Moreover, the Qur’aan is a miracle in its wording and its meaning; if it is changed, this is no longer the case, and it is no longer Qur’aan but an interpretation (tafseer). (al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, part 5: A’jami).

https://islamqa.info/en/3471

I don't do for reward, and GOD has all power to allow any to discern what HE wills regardless of translation or language.

The verses you provided indeed speak of the language of which it was written. Yet still; GOD gives discernment to whom HE chooses.

Thank you for the references friend.

[popsthebuilder]

Yusuf (2)
Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand.

Ta Ha (113)
And thus have We sent it down an Arabic Quran, and have distinctly set forth therein of threats that they may guard (against evil) or that it may produce a reminder for them.

The Embellishment (3)
Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.


There are some other Ayahs also. Quran says that it is an Arabic Quran. And it is a fardh(must) of Salah (ritual prayer) to read from Quran. My mother tongue is not Arabic too but I must do it as Allah orders it.

I see no command in the verses you referenced.

[anatolian]

I see no command in the verses you referenced.

Those verses say that the Quran (actually Quran means reading/reciting) is an Arabic Quran. Translations of Quran is not considered Quran. They are just translations of Quran. They have a different status as interpretations of Quran. It is just a short cut when we refer to the translations of Quran as "Quran".

Also there are hadiths that commands to read from Quran in the ritual prayer. So?

[Zzz_]

I don't do for reward, and GOD has all power to allow any to discern what HE wills regardless of translation or language.

The verses you provided indeed speak of the language of which it was written. Yet still; GOD gives discernment to whom HE chooses.

Thank you for the references friend.

It really comes down to rules and commands. Yes, God could've done anything he wanted to. He could've sent a translation patch to translate to every language known to man. But what it really comes down to is that God revealed the final scriptures in this particular language because the chosen Messenger was from this particular region speaking this particular language and He has set particular rules on how to worship to obtain His pleasure. And part of that is to follow the text in its original revelation. Quran is considered the literal words of Allah, so reciting the quran in any language other then the original is reciting the translated words of a man. It's really not the same.

Bottom line, here's the final scriptures, here's how you follow them and this is how you show obedience and submission to your Lord. Everything else is mere man's opinion of what he 'thinks' should be.

[popsthebuilder]

Those verses say that the Quran (actually Quran means reading/reciting) is an Arabic Quran. Translations of Quran is not considered Quran. They are just translations of Quran. They have a different status as interpretations of Quran. It is just a short cut when we refer to the translations of Quran as "Quran".

Also there are hadiths that commands to read from Quran in the ritual prayer. So?

I only read core sacred texts at this time friend.

[azc]

I only read core sacred texts at this time friend.

Do you pray salah.......?

[popsthebuilder]

Do you pray salah.......?

I pray throughout the day, but not ritualistically, or out of mandate.

[anatolian]

I only read core sacred texts at this time friend.

I have already shared the core sacred text of Islam with you. It says Quran is Arabic.

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I only read core sacred texts at this time friend.

I have already shared the core sacred text of Islam with you. It says Quran is Arabic.

[popsthebuilder]

I have already shared the core sacred text of Islam with you. It says Quran is Arabic.

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I have already shared the core sacred text of Islam with you. It says Quran is Arabic.

That's fine.

I have yet to see a command.

The Quran is very straight forward in commands. It would be very obvious.

[azc]

I pray throughout the day, but not ritualistically, or out of mandate.

No ambiguous reply plz.

Q: Do you pray salah (Islamic prayer)..?

Q: Sacred text..? Is it Quran to read..?

[anatolian]

That's fine.

I have yet to see a command.

The Quran is very straight forward in commands. It would be very obvious.

The Quran commands to perform prayer. But does not specify how to do it. There is not a verse in Quran which “commands” how to perform it. We understand that from the sunnah of the Prophet a.s. and he tells to read from Quran. Just think it together. You achieve the result.

[popsthebuilder]

No ambiguous reply plz.

Q: Do you pray salah (Islamic prayer)..?

Q: Sacred text..? Is it Quran to read..?

I pray submissively to our GOD.

I do not quite understand your second question.

If by Quran you mean Arabic language then no, of course not. I speak and read English alone and am really not too great at writing that one. I can show you the app if you like. I do not do things due to repetition. I understand Islam as submitting to GOD which I strive to do.

I am not being intentionally vague.

peace

[popsthebuilder]

The Quran commands to perform prayer. But does not specify how to do it. There is not a verse in Quran which “commands” how to perform it. We understand that from the sunnah of the Prophet a.s. and he tells to read from Quran. Just think it together. You achieve the result.

Seems like the Quran isn't specific in exact form of prayer or that it need be in Arabic or even audible. My very thoughts are in English. The most solomn and sincere thoughts or words are those GOD is pleased with to me.

I don't think I need a separate writing telling me what the Quran says. Our GOD is not a GOD of confusion, and HE knows the desires of our heart regardless of if we keep the truth even from ourselves. We will all be judged. The sincerity of our prayer matters. It is as if people are promoting learning prayer that is disconnected from their heart due to multiple factors, in order to follow tradition that isn't in the Quran. What is prayer that one may not wholly understand compared to sincere prayer from the heart and mind? What is recital from memory, to an utterly humbled estate due to reflecting on the truth within one's own life?

I'm sure the prayers are beautiful; but for me personally it would cause a disconnect of sorts that seems very important. This, along with the fact that the Quran indeed does not command us to pray or read in Arabic only is the reason for my stance at this time.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever. I do see it differently though.

peace

[AllahIsAl-Malik]

I don't understand why this forum is allowed to be used a platform to attack Islam.

[azc]

@popsthebuilder :

this topic has 2 aspects:

1: To Recite Quran
2: To Understand the msg of Quran

You emphasise on one aspect only. I agree how you can understand if you don't know Arabic. True, for it you need translation and interpretation. Quran in several verses emphasises to understand the msg of quran so that you may be guided from darkness to light of truth.
Moreover, for deep understanding even Arabic speaking people need the quranic exegesis and interpretation.

As far as recitation is concerned, it's the separate Islamic science. Lowest level, obligatory upon every Muslim is to learn how to pronounce each letter and pausing or stopping at the end of verse.

Allah Ta’ala says in the Holy Qur’an:
ورَتلناه ترتيلا
“And with tarteel We have revealed it i.e. the Qur’an”

Also we have been ordered to recite the Qur’an with tarteel;

Allah Ta’ala says,
ورتل القرأن ترتيلا

“And recite the Qur’an with tarteel”

From the above two verses, it becomes obligatory on us to recite the Qur’an with tarteel.

Q: How will you read the translation of quranic verses with Tarteel in prayer....?

*.Tajweed is the science of the rules of recitation of the Quran. Reciting with tajweed means that one is applying the rules of tajweed. A related word is “mujawwad”.
*.Tarteel means reading as the Prophet (PBUH) used to recite and as he was ordered to by Allah. [wa rattil il-Qurana tarteela] (Muzzammil 4).

*.When asked about the meaning of Tarteel, Ali (Radhiallahu Anhu) replied, ‘It means that the Qur’an should be recited with Tajweed and with due observance to the rules of Waqf (pausing or stopping at the end of the verse).’

Prophet s.a.w said:

''Read and elevate (through the levels of the Paradise) and beautify your voice as you used to do when you were in the dunyaa! For verily, your position in the Paradise will be at the last verse you recite!”(Abu Dawood)

Think:

It manifests the importance of recitation. It's nothing to do with understanding the verses

Prophet s.a.w said:

“Whoever reads a letter from the Book of Allah, he will have a reward. And that reward will be multiplied by ten. I am not saying that “Alif, Laam, Meem” is a letter, rather I am saying that “Alif” is a letter, “laam” is a letter and “meem” is a letter.”(Tirmidhi)

Think:
This reward is specific for recitation of quranic verses. Alif, laam, meem can't be translated. It means reward is given on each letter/word of quranic verses whether or not you understand its meaning.

our beloved Prophet (SAW) said:“Verily the one who recites the Quran beautifully, smoothly, and precisely, he will be in the company of the noble and obedient angels. And as for the one who recites with difficulty, stammering or stumbling through its verses, then he will have TWICE that reward.”(Sahih Al-Bukhari)

Think:

Melodious voice or stammering has nothing to do with translation . It's definitely related to original Arabic text.

[popsthebuilder]

I don't understand why this forum is allowed to be used a platform to attack Islam.

I am in no way attacking Islam.

[popsthebuilder]

@popsthebuilder :

this topic has 2 aspects:

1: To Recite Quran
2: To Understand the msg of Quran

You emphasise on one aspect only. I agree how you can understand if you don't know Arabic. True, for it you need translation and interpretation. Quran in several verses emphasises to understand the msg of quran so that you may be guided from darkness to light of truth.
Moreover, for deep understanding even Arabic speaking people need the quranic exegesis and interpretation.

As far as recitation is concerned, it's the separate Islamic science. Lowest level, obligatory upon every Muslim is to learn how to pronounce each letter and pausing or stopping at the end of verse.

Allah Ta’ala says in the Holy Qur’an:
ورَتلناه ترتيلا
“And with tarteel We have revealed it i.e. the Qur’an”

Also we have been ordered to recite the Qur’an with tarteel;

Allah Ta’ala says,
ورتل القرأن ترتيلا

“And recite the Qur’an with tarteel”

From the above two verses, it becomes obligatory on us to recite the Qur’an with tarteel.

Q: How will you read the translation of quranic verses with Tarteel in prayer....?

*.Tajweed is the science of the rules of recitation of the Quran. Reciting with tajweed means that one is applying the rules of tajweed. A related word is “mujawwad”.
*.Tarteel means reading as the Prophet (PBUH) used to recite and as he was ordered to by Allah. [wa rattil il-Qurana tarteela] (Muzzammil 4).

*.When asked about the meaning of Tarteel, Ali (Radhiallahu Anhu) replied, ‘It means that the Qur’an should be recited with Tajweed and with due observance to the rules of Waqf (pausing or stopping at the end of the verse).’

Prophet s.a.w said:

''Read and elevate (through the levels of the Paradise) and beautify your voice as you used to do when you were in the dunyaa! For verily, your position in the Paradise will be at the last verse you recite!”(Abu Dawood)

Think:

It manifests the importance of recitation. It's nothing to do with understanding the verses

Prophet s.a.w said:

“Whoever reads a letter from the Book of Allah, he will have a reward. And that reward will be multiplied by ten. I am not saying that “Alif, Laam, Meem” is a letter, rather I am saying that “Alif” is a letter, “laam” is a letter and “meem” is a letter.”(Tirmidhi)

Think:
This reward is specific for recitation of quranic verses. Alif, laam, meem can't be translated. It means reward is given on each letter/word of quranic verses whether or not you understand its meaning.

our beloved Prophet (SAW) said:“Verily the one who recites the Quran beautifully, smoothly, and precisely, he will be in the company of the noble and obedient angels. And as for the one who recites with difficulty, stammering or stumbling through its verses, then he will have TWICE that reward.”(Sahih Al-Bukhari)

Think:

Melodious voice or stammering has nothing to do with translation . It's definitely related to original Arabic text.

I am sorry friend. I see it wholly differently.

I will leave this topic alone, and I appreciate your time and effort and explanations.

I am not demeaning Islam and not trying to be contentious.

peace

[AllahIsAl-Malik]

I am in no way attacking Islam.

I don't know if you were. I haven't really kept up with your posts. I wasn't specifically talking about you.

[beleiver]

Why do you have a problem with women having to accompany their male relative during their travels? Why do you say that it was only applicable for that particular time and no more applicable now? Given the widespread corruption of morals nowadays, it is more needed now than at that time.

Islamic laws are universal, for all periods of time and for everyone living everywhere.

I dont see in this day and age with the motor car and areoplane in times of peace is the same as when the Prophet(pbuh) was alive during times of war where his enemies were around.
I could drive my wife to the airport that has ott security where in less time it takes to cross a city by foot she could be the other side of/or in a different continet with less danger than walking across a city..She could get in safe transport and arrive with her family or friends safer than walking accross a city and in less time.
Now i agree its good advice and better to have a guardian, especially if going on a spiritual journey together as man and wife or as a family, like a going on a pillgrimage, but the situation on simple travel has changed a great deal since the times of the Prophet (pbuh)..

Allha puts these man made laws into prespective and explains why no man can create a law that will stand the test of time..I respect the haiths but find them problematic when men take something the Propet said then make a rule out of it for all people for all time when its not going to stand the test of time.
And there are other rules that go against what the Prophet (pbuh) said, it seems the deeper i look much of whats called islam is man made, no offence, inshalla.

If we could accept it as advice, fair enough, but when it can become an enforcable law, its a problem that will casue harrasment of women and trurn people away from the Truth that is Islam the salvation for mankind.

"Unto me my work, and unto you your work. Ye are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what ye do"

Then bring a surah like unto it, and call (for help) on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful.39 Nay, but they denied that, the knowledge whereof they could not compass, and whereof the interpretation (in events) hath not yet come unto them.

Only Allahas word can stand the test of time, if this rule was worthy He would of surley revealed it?

[azc]

I dont see in this day and age with the motor car and areoplane in times of peace is the same as when the Prophet(pbuh) was alive during times of war where his enemies were around.
I could drive my wife to the airport that has ott security where in less time it takes to cross a city by foot she could be the other side of/or in a different continet with less danger than walking across a city..She could get in safe transport and arrive with her family or friends safer than walking accross a city and in less time.
Now i agree its good advice and better to have a guardian, especially if going on a spiritual journey together as man and wife or as a family, like a going on a pillgrimage, but the situation on simple travel has changed a great deal since the times of the Prophet (pbuh)..

Allha puts these man made laws into prespective and explains why no man can create a law that will stand the test of time..I respect the haiths but find them problematic when men take something the Propet said then make a rule out of it for all people for all time when its not going to stand the test of time.
And there are other rules that go against what the Prophet (pbuh) said, it seems the deeper i look much of whats called islam is man made, no offence, inshalla.

If we could accept it as advice, fair enough, but when it can become an enforcable law, its a problem that will casue harrasment of women and trurn people away from the Truth that is Islam the salvation for mankind.

"Unto me my work, and unto you your work. Ye are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what ye do"

Then bring a surah like unto it, and call (for help) on all ye can besides Allah, if ye are truthful.39 Nay, but they denied that, the knowledge whereof they could not compass, and whereof the interpretation (in events) hath not yet come unto them.

Only Allahas word can stand the test of time, if this rule was worthy He would of surley revealed it?

No, this modern age is more corrupted than previous one, let alone the age of prophet s.a.w

[beleiver]

No, this modern age is more corrupted than previous one, let alone the age of prophet s.a.w

You are most likley right and i would tend to agree , but my point was in many cases due to inventions like the motor car, busses , trains and areoplanes, travelling is safer but walking across a city might not be, and not all situations are the same..

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The end times began when the prophet arrived. The corruption you speak of was something the prophet warned us about and is to be expected. It doesn't mean the religion itself is corrupted, it doesn't mean the Quran and Hadith were corrupted, rather, the mentality of people has been corrupted (hence the sects etc). People have been severely deceived (which is why usury is widespread and unavoidable today). You won't get very far in your eschatology studies (end time studies) without hadith.

In order to figure out what time you are in today, you will need to accept the authority hadith has and learn to pair it up with Quran. Also, you may want to study the seerah so that you understand just how hadith and Quran go together. I'm a convert by the way, and I've been where you are. :)

It never occured to me the end times came when the Prophet arrived, what makes you say that? i was thinking more along the lines of armeggedon and the reuturn of Jesus and the Djaal..
And yes i agree the Koran and Hadiths cant be corrupted but the hearts of those who interprit them into legislation can be..As the Quran warns about.
I try not to ignore the Hadiths, there is immense wisdom and knowlage in them..

I know its extemely difficult but usury can be avoided, i have been meaning to ask on this forum how Islam deals with this problem.

And thanks for your reply and for mentioning the Seerah..Are there many of those translated into English?
Which ones would you reccomend?

[azc]

You are most likley right and i would tend to agree , but my point was in many cases due to inventions like the motor car, busses , trains and areoplanes, travelling is safer but walking across a city might not be, and not all situations are the same..

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It never occured to me the end times came when the Prophet arrived, what makes you say that? i was thinking more along the lines of armeggedon and the reuturn of Jesus and the Djaal..
And yes i agree the Koran and Hadiths cant be corrupted but the hearts of those who interprit them into legislation can be..As the Quran warns about.
I try not to ignore the Hadiths, there is immense wisdom and knowlage in them..

I know its extemely difficult but usury can be avoided, i have been meaning to ask on this forum how Islam deals with this problem.

And thanks for your reply and for mentioning the Seerah..Are there many of those translated into English?
Which ones would you reccomend?

even in car, bus and other vehicles women aren't safe. They have been raped there too. However, I've not heard of rape in aeroplane

[Zzz_]

And thanks for your reply and for mentioning the Seerah..Are there many of those translated into English?
Which ones would you reccomend?

The sealed nectar is pretty good and popular.
https://www.kalamullah.com/sealed-nectar.html

even in car, bus and other vehicles women aren't safe. They have been raped there too. However, I've not heard of rape in aeroplane

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2018/0...to-settle.html

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...b7ad629e4920eb

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.77a41c89df5a

https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/27/polit...hts/index.html

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/indi...de-him-1796089

https://qz.com/533256/the-disturbing...-on-airplanes/

[Umm♥Layth]

You are most likley right and i would tend to agree , but my point was in many cases due to inventions like the motor car, busses , trains and areoplanes, travelling is safer but walking across a city might not be, and not all situations are the same..

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It never occured to me the end times came when the Prophet arrived, what makes you say that? i was thinking more along the lines of armeggedon and the reuturn of Jesus and the Djaal..
And yes i agree the Koran and Hadiths cant be corrupted but the hearts of those who interprit them into legislation can be..As the Quran warns about.
I try not to ignore the Hadiths, there is immense wisdom and knowlage in them..

I know its extemely difficult but usury can be avoided, i have been meaning to ask on this forum how Islam deals with this problem.

And thanks for your reply and for mentioning the Seerah..Are there many of those translated into English?
Which ones would you reccomend?

Jabir (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:Whenever the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) delivered a Khutbah, his eyes would become red, his tone loud and he showed anger as if he were warning us against an army. He (ﷺ) would say, "The enemy is about to attack you in the morning and the enemy is advancing against you in the evening". He would further say, "I am sent with the final Hour like these two fingers of mine." Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) held up his index finger and the middle finger together to illustrate. He used to add: "To proceed, the best speech is the Book of Allah and the best guidance is the guidance of Muhammad (ﷺ), the worst practice is the introduction of new practices in Islam and every Bid'ah is a misguidance". He would also say, "I am, in respect of rights, nearer to every believer than his own self. He who leaves an estate, it belongs to his heirs, and he who leaves a debt, it is my responsibility to pay it off." [Muslim]. Same Hadith as reported by 'Irbad bin Sariyah (May Allah be pleased with him) has already been recorded in the previous chapter regarding safeguarding the Sunnah of the Prophet (ﷺ).

Narrated Sahl bin Sa`d:

I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) pointing with his index and middle fingers, saying. "The time of my Advent and the Hour are like these two fingers." The Great Catastrophe will overwhelm everything.


(See Hadith number 158)

Many feel the hour is upon us, but again, the Prophet (saw) also felt similarly and he had his suspicions as to who the dajjal was. You may enjoy reading : http://www.imranhosein.org/books/571...-al-zaman.html

I'm not even half way through it myself, however, I am familiar with his work and have listened to him discuss the subject many times. He also explains usury quite well and how it can no longer be avoided (not saying we give up on not getting into debt or taking loans etc.).

As far as the hadith about women needing a mahram to go out and other hadith where rulings are derived from, they are very much relevant to modern day. Women are constantly subjected to cat calling, fondling in public areas especially areas like public transport. Having a mahram there would reduce these instances quite a bit. Here are just a couple of examples of just how rampant this is in modern day.

This woman took it upon herself to document every time she is subjected to cat calling in a month's time. Have a look at her instagram feed. She takes a photo with each pervert to create awareness of how common this is: https://www.instagram.com/dearcatcallers/?hl=en

If you google "Sexual harassment in _________'s streets" you will find a problem just about anywhere. In Egypt alone, 99% of women have said they have been victims of sexual harassment. That's a pretty large number.

I don't know if you are aware of some of the latest news of an 8 year old girl who was gang raped in India very recently.

This stuff is real and as a grown woman myself, I appreciate having the company of my mahrams when I go out. I do go out alone when I have to and if it is close by. Out of necessity I've had to travel on my own before and I was fine Alhamdullilah, but I have been a victim of harassment myself when I was younger and I can honestly say that if my dad or brothers were with me, nothing would have happened to me.

Just my take on it :)

[beleiver]

Many feel the hour is upon us, but again, the Prophet (saw) also felt similarly and he had his suspicions as to who the dajjal was. You may enjoy reading : http://www.imranhosein.org/books/571...-al-zaman.html

I'm not even half way through it myself, however, I am familiar with his work and have listened to him discuss the subject many times. He also explains usury quite well and how it can no longer be avoided (not saying we give up on not getting into debt or taking loans etc.).

I am aware of Imran Hosein's lectures, i have much respect for his work, inshalla i will read his books one day, I am sure though he says to be ca
refull when saying some thing is an integral part of Islam when it is not from the Quran?

As far as the hadith about women needing a mahram to go out and other hadith where rulings are derived from, they are very much relevant to modern day. Women are constantly subjected to cat calling, fondling in public areas especially areas like public transport. Having a mahram there would reduce these instances quite a bit. Here are just a couple of examples of just how rampant this is in modern day.

This woman took it upon herself to document every time she is subjected to cat calling in a month's time. Have a look at her instagram feed. She takes a photo with each pervert to create awareness of how common this is: https://www.instagram.com/dearcatcallers/?hl=en

If you google "Sexual harassment in _________'s streets" you will find a problem just about anywhere. In Egypt alone, 99% of women have said they have been victims of sexual harassment. That's a pretty large number.

I don't know if you are aware of some of the latest news of an 8 year old girl who was gang raped in India very recently.

This stuff is real and as a grown woman myself, I appreciate having the company of my mahrams when I go out. I do go out alone when I have to and if it is close by. Out of necessity I've had to travel on my own before and I was fine Alhamdullilah, but I have been a victim of harassment myself when I was younger and I can honestly say that if my dad or brothers were with me, nothing would have happened to me.

Just my take on it :)

I am kind of aware of the harrasment women get still, and read about that horrific rape of that child in India, its like the world is going backwards to a degree, but its still not the same as the times of the Propeht (pbuh) when prior to His revalations ALL women were mens property and the sex slave trade and prostitution was open and accepted part of a brutally patriachical society..
It would of been much more dangerous then during times of war venturing out side of lands under Muslim control than it is now getting on an areoplane.

I was reading a link on a previous post about a woman that was raped on a areoplane, the police got her satement when she got off yet let the accused rapist walk out the air port unmollested..wow.
Also i was reading a case where a high up ex civil servant in Ireland was caught with large amounts of child porn, he served no prison, yet the same judge convicted a man for 6 years for not paying enough tax on food imports..

The Quran does tell us how to deal with those that harras women, which is zero tollerance, and that could be said of all forms of oppression of the strong over the weak.

I do think its great advice to be accompanied by a mharam but not ideal for all situations and think the idea that men can openly harras women without fear of punishment is a serious ill of a perverse society and our wives and daughters should be safe to travel without personal guards.

I thank you for your take.

[cinnamonrolls1]

As long as she is not harming herself or others nor putting hers self in a stupid dangerous situation , i could not oppress my own dughter, certainly not in the name of Allaha, He blessed us with freedom of choice, ears to hear, eyes to see, and heart to feel, may He guide her.




Inshalla , she will be conscious of Allaha, But for an imaginary example, say she gets a place in a foreign university say in Barcalona, in my experience (i am fairly well travelled) she would be safer being driven to the airport then getting a Taxi, bus or what ever to her digs and going about her bussiness than say if she lived in a british city like say Birmingham and walked across town at night by her self...The most dangerous situation is allowed in whats called 'Islam' but not the other..Cant you see the problem with ruling, its not universal law for all people for all time, every situation is different there is a reason such a law is created by stupid men not by Allaha. There is a reason why he gifted us with eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart and mind to be guided by His conscioussness for each and every situation.



The debate is becomming foggy here, i am not sure what mental health issues have with the disccusion?
But my understanding and i think a message lost from the Quran and True Islam is if its causing no harm or loss to any one , it none of their bussines.
If someone sins, advise against it by all means but dont transgress and be forcing your will on others, thats the action of those gone astray and actually comparable with gangsters and thugs whether they have the monopoly of force or not.

"Part of the perfection of one’s Islam is his leaving that which does not concern him.” Mohamed (pbuh)

And if they deny thee, say: Unto me my work, and unto you your work. Ye are innocent of what I do, and I am innocent of what ye do.

The preceding and following ayats to this are a beauty regarding Allhas sovereignty and why a believer need to worry of the ations of fools and Kafir.




If you want drink strong drink all day every day there will be reaction to that action as sure as night follows day..I believe people should be free to choose, i beleive Allah to be the sovereign and best punisher.

Check out thegreaterjihad's faq page, its a tumblr blog, shes studying islam, she specialises in this kinda stuff. You can view it via ur browser even if you dont have a tumblr account

[OmAbdullah]

Careful there. I smell a hadith rejector. In fact, the Sunnah does not contradict the Quran. It elaborates and explains the Quran.

May Allah bless you for posting this TRUTH.

[Nashita]

And this is how we'll supress women by taking their freedom of going out alone?? No where in Quran , it says that women requires a men with them wherever they go . Its true that the number of rapes will reduce but the number of rapists won't fall down !!! The rapists will always find their own way, we need strict laws to deal with the rapists . We need to educate our men and teach them how to respect women . It's sad that even today in some societies, women don't get the respect they deserve.

[Zzz_]

And this is how we'll supress women by taking their freedom of going out alone?? No where in Quran , it says that women requires a men with them wherever they go . .

Islam is not the quran only. The Quran itself says "we revealed the dhikr (Quran) AND something like it", which all notable scholars agree refers to the Sunnah. Also, that very Quran states "Obey the Messenger and you have obeyed Allah".

And it is in the Sunnah we find that Islam states women can't travel far distances without a mahram. She can go about locally in her own city on her own but outside of that she needs a mahram for her own safety. Following Islam's guidelines is not suppressing/oppressing women. Islam's and Allah's notion of freedom is different then kuffar societies bare your breasts and burn your bras notion of freedom.

You said you are indian-born so you should understand this better than anyone, even if you were not born and raised in india. You can't even travel alone within your own city in india without getting sexually molested or raped.

[Nashita]

Islam is not the quran only. The Quran itself says "we revealed the dhikr (Quran) AND something like it", which all notable scholars agree refers to the Sunnah. Also, that very Quran states "Obey the Messenger and you have obeyed Allah".

And it is in the Sunnah we find that Islam states women can't travel far distances without a mahram. She can go about locally in her own city on her own but outside of that she needs a mahram for her own safety. Following Islam's guidelines is not suppressing/oppressing women. Islam's and Allah's notion of freedom is different then kuffar societies bare your breasts and burn your bras notion of freedom.

You said you are indian-born so you should understand this better than anyone, even if you were not born and raised in india. You can't even travel alone within your own city in india without getting sexually molested or raped.

Islam never said that women can't go out alone, it's the society then that assumed women can't travel alone. I agree to the fact that there will be less crimes over women if they don't travel alone but that won't cut down the number of rapists or molesters. We can't eradicate rape, molestation by just taking this step . Even men in the society needs to change their mentality and learn how to respect women.

Yes I am an Indian Muslim, a proud Indian as well. I don't know how you picture India and whatever it is , it's not of my concern. I am an 18 year old girl and do travel alone to my university, tuition, mall ... I don't want my father or my mother to accompany me to the University everyday because it's not only gonna be hectic for them, it's also because I won't learn how to be independent and to do my own job.

Women are not born to get married and be someone's wife, raise children and just take care of the family. Even women have their own dreams to be successful in life whether being a doctor, engineer, teacher or lawyer. Even today, most men don't wanna see successfull and independent women. And note that by saying independent , I don't mean something which is against Islamic rules. Not everyone women wants to see themselves just as a "bride" , such women want to be successful and make their parents feel proud.

[ChosenTCO]

Islam is not the quran only. The Quran itself says "we revealed the dhikr (Quran) AND something like it", which all notable scholars agree refers to the Sunnah. Also, that very Quran states "Obey the Messenger and you have obeyed Allah".

And it is in the Sunnah we find that Islam states women can't travel far distances without a mahram. She can go about locally in her own city on her own but outside of that she needs a mahram for her own safety. Following Islam's guidelines is not suppressing/oppressing women. Islam's and Allah's notion of freedom is different then kuffar societies bare your breasts and burn your bras notion of freedom.

You said you are indian-born so you should understand this better than anyone, even if you were not born and raised in india. You can't even travel alone within your own city in india without getting sexually molested or raped.

I gotta say, i kind of agree with Nashita on this one. If we start making this a requirement more than a recommendation, it will rob women from the freedom that they already have. It is not correct to make it a requirement or a must to have a mahram whenever or wherever the muslim female goes. And to demonstrate how absurd it would be if that rule was implemented in real life, lets take an example of a common wife trying to fulfill her duties towards her husband and family.

Say the woman was not able to buy groceries with her husband the last few days and now she has run out of food to cook, so she needs go and buy some asap. What does she do? call her husband from work to go take her grocery shopping? Let any man try that often and see how that will affect his reputation at work. Who else? Father, brother, or even her sons? Again, they are either working or studying. And its not just grocery shopping. Sometimes the woman needs to get things for the house, buy new clothes for herself, beautify herself in a saloon before her husband comes back from work, get the kids from school, take care of other family problem she may be having and much more. The needs outside the house never stop. And your suggesting that every single time the woman needs to leave the house she should be accompanied by a mahram? A woman who requires a mahram to be with her everytime she goes out would be considered a hindrance and a burden, not a blessing to her husband. I think you can start to see how this would cause more problems in our society than this solution would seem to suggest. And what use is it to eliminate the risk of rape if there is no functioning society to live in it in the first place?

Its not just that though. The suggestion given by the OP in his original post is slightly insulting to women as well (not that i take offence to it as i know he meant well and for that i thank him for his efforts). But if we think about it a little deeper, you would notice that the only person who would require such intense supervision is a toddler who has just learned to walk or a pet that is roaming outdoors. You wouldnt enforce such supervision on a teenager or a young adult let alone a fully grown woman. I get that it reduces the risk of getting harassed and raped and what not. But then i can apply the same logic to other things and demand to enforce such safety measures to be taken on everyone. For example, the number of teens who fall into the sin of watching pornography via their smartphones or computers is off the scale. Does that mean that i should ban all teens from having smartphones and computers unless they are under supervision? Can you imagine how ridiculous that would be? The solution to this problem is moderation. Moderation of the safety measures we take against these risks. Its true that having a mahram accompany a woman would reduce the risk of her getting harassed or molested in the streets, but we shouldnt make it an obligation for each and every time a woman needs to go out. Specially for small outdoor activities such as grocery shopping or taking a walk in the part. There are other solutions to reduces those risks we speak of. Heck, a woman can even go out with the neighbor's wife and both of them would be a little safer, and if she had a bigger circle of women that would even be better.

What im trying to get at here is that ... we shouldnt make this a requirement or obligation unless it is explicitly and clearly mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah. I personally do not know of any hadith that demands women to be accompanied by their mahrams when outdoors 24/7 every step of the way. So if you know of such hadeeth that we do not know of then please, feel free to share and i would retract all of what i have said.

- - - Updated - - -

PS. Just for your information. A large portion of rape or even child molestation cases happens between family members. So imagine when you expose those muslim women to the authority mahrams who have statically been proven to being a significant chance of being a rapist or a molestor, how exposed to risk will these women be? not saying its worse than not having a mahram all together. But having a mahram can be considered risky too through statistics.

[AabiruSabeel]

The prohibition is only for traveling, not for daily errands within the city. I've updated the thread title now.

Please see following quoted posts for details.

In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

Generally, it is impermissible for a woman to travel the distance of three days (equivalent to 48 miles) without her husband or a Mahram (unmarriageable kin) accompanying her.

There are many clear narrations of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) in this regard.

1) Sayyiduna Abu Sa’id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Let no woman travel for more than three days unless her husband or a Mahram is with her.” (Sahih Muslim)

2) Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “A woman must not travel for three days except with a Mahram.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 1036 & Sahih Muslim)

3) Sayyiduna Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “It is unlawful for a woman who believes in Allah and the last day that she travels the distance of one day and one night without a Mahram accompanying her.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 1038)

4) Sayyiduna Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “’A woman must not travel except with a Mahram and a man must not enter upon her except if she has a Mahram.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 1763)

Imam Nawawi (may Allah have mercy on him) states in his monumental commentary of Sahih Muslim:

“There are many such narrations that assert the impermissibility of a woman travelling without a Mahram. These narrations vary in their wordings. The narration of Ibn Abbas in Sahih al-Bukhari says that a woman must not travel without a Mahram, but it adds nothing else. However, the other narrations, in Sahih al-Bukhari and elsewhere, mention lengths of journeys for which a Mahram is required – some of the narrations specify three days, some two, some one, and some even less.”
Imam Nawawi (Allah have mercy on him) also mentions that the difference found in these narrations is due to the different questioners and the places wherein the answers were given to them. al-Bayhaqi said: “It is as though the messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) was asked regarding travelling for three days without a Mahram, and he refused. He was then asked about her travelling for two days, and regarding one day, etc and each narrator related from him what he heard.” (See: Commentary of Sahih Muslim by Imam Nawawi, 1015)

According to the Hanafi Ijtihad, the distance that is considered here is three days and three nights, for the narrations mentioning three days & three nights have reached the level of certainty. All the Companions who narrated other than three days also narrate the distance of three days and three nights. The narrations that mention two or one day will be restricted to specific circumstances, such as the fear of more fitna. Hence, they (Hanafi School) considers the narrations that mention three days & three nights as the basis of prohibition. (Zafar Ahmad al-Tahanawi, I’la al-Sunan, V. 10, P. 11)

It must be remarked here that this refers to the distance usually covered by walking or on an animal in three days & three nights (with the usual breaks for resting and eating). Therefore, the restriction of travelling with a Mahram applies if the distance of the journey exceeds this, even if the journey itself is accomplished in a shorter time.

The scholars have differed on the length of this distance. Many scholars are of the opinion that it is 16 Farsakh, and each Farsakh equals three miles, thus totalling to 48 miles. (See: Faydh al-Bari ala Sahih al-Bukhari, 2/397)
http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa/7865

Be sure to read this paragraph copied from islamqa.info.
With regard to a woman going out of her house, according to sharee’ah it is not conditional upon her being accompanied by her husband or mahram as long as she is trustworthy and she goes to places where there is no fear for her, and the route she takes is safe. The presence of a mahram is a condition when she is travelling, but she does not have to be accompanied by a mahram everywhere she goes in the city – unless there is some evil or fitnah (temptation, tribulation) involved in her going even a short distance, in which case a woman should not go out on her own. Then it is better to be on the safe side and not go out unless she is with her husband or someone who can protect her and take care of her.

[Zzz_]

I gotta say, i kind of agree with Nashita on this one. If we start making this a requirement more than a recommendation, it will rob women from the freedom that they already have.

What im trying to get at here is that ... we shouldnt make this a requirement or obligation unless it is explicitly and clearly mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah. I personally do not know of any hadith that demands women to be accompanied by their mahrams when outdoors 24/7 every step of the way. So if you know of such hadeeth that we do not know of then please, feel free to share and i would retract all of what i have said.

You misunderstood or misread what I said. I said she is free to travel within the city for her daily life necessities. I was referring to traveling outside of the city or far distances. AabiruSabeel has clarified this as well in the previous post.

[Aaqib]

I certainly would feel uncomfortable and scared allowing my mom travelling far distances all alone, especially in a wicked society like the USA.