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Ishil
05-11-2018, 10:30 AM
Quran clearly says that project Muhammad is the last messenger for the whole of humanity , then how come any religion after Islam eg.SIKHISM can come.
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anatolian
05-11-2018, 01:23 PM
Cannot
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azc
05-11-2018, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by Ishil
Quran clearly says that project Muhammad is the last messenger for the whole of humanity , then how come any religion after Islam eg.SIKHISM can come.
Islam is the ONLY true religion.
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Ejaz Ahmed
05-11-2018, 02:08 PM
Similarities between Islam and Sikhism

Both religions are Monotheistic.

Sikhs and Muslims believe in a formless God.

Both religions are against idol worship.

The Sikhs believe in Dharam Yudha and the Muslims in Jihad. The war of righteousness, makes both militarized religions.

Charity is one of the most important basic tenets of Sikhism and Islam. In Islam it is called Zakat and in Sikhism Dasvandh, where 10% of a person’s income is supposed to be given for important causes.

Followers cover their head for prayers.
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azc
05-11-2018, 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by Ishil
Quran clearly says that project Muhammad is the last messenger for the whole of humanity , then how come any religion after Islam eg.SIKHISM can come.
Originally Posted by Ejaz Ahmed
Similarities between Islam and Sikhism

Both religions are Monotheistic.

Sikhs and Muslims believe in a formless God.

Both religions are against idol worship.

The Sikhs believe in Dharam Yudha and the Muslims in Jihad. The war of righteousness, makes both militarized religions.

Charity is one of the most important basic tenets of Sikhism and Islam. In Islam it is called Zakat and in Sikhism Dasvandh, where 10% of a person’s income is supposed to be given for important causes.

Followers cover their head for prayers.
such similarities can be seen in other religions as well.

What about it that Sikhs prostrate before gurugranth sahib...?

Halal meat is haram in their religion. Alcohol, sodomy, fornication, music is common thing in them.

They hated Muslims more than any other people, they killed Muslims at large in 1947 but in 1984 Muslims protected them and since then their views have been changed a bit.
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Ejaz Ahmed
05-11-2018, 02:26 PM
There is nothing about sikhism through Islam

Allah says "This day have I perfected your religion for you completed my favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.-Allah is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." Quran 5:3

Further "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men but (he is) the Apostle of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.-" Quran 33:40


Nothing new can be added nothing can be subtracted..this is the complete way.
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azc
05-11-2018, 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by Ejaz Ahmed
There is nothing about sikhism through Islam

Allah says "This day have I perfected your religion for you completed my favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.-Allah is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful." Quran 5:3

Further "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men but (he is) the Apostle of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.-" Quran 33:40


Nothing new can be added nothing can be subtracted..this is the complete way.
yes, you are right. I agree with you
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Ejaz Ahmed
05-11-2018, 02:41 PM
In this time, Sujood-prostration should be only for Allah no one else..

As far as halal meat alcohol music sodomy fornication is concerned, they r absolutely forbidden in Islam. Idk whether that religion allow these or not(please don't have image of religion by just observing the followers)..

Anything which goes against the Furqan (criterion) - Quran mustn't be follows.
Allah gives us challenge "do not they ponder on the Quran? And if it had been from other than Allah, surely they would have found in it much contradiction." Quran 4:82

Give me a single contradictory Ayah(in context) which goes against established science, health..
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Zzz_
05-11-2018, 03:39 PM
Any religion can come any time, doesn't necessarily mean it's the right or true religion. Look at Nation of Islam in America, they call themselves Muslims but they have their own prophet and everything. They are not Muslims nor is their religion related to Islam in anyway. Same goes for Sikhism.
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anatolian
05-11-2018, 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Ejaz Ahmed
In this time, Sujood-prostration should be only for Allah no one else..
Trolling is detected
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Ejaz Ahmed
05-11-2018, 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Zzz_
Any religion can come any time, doesn't necessarily mean it's the right or true religion. Look at Nation of Islam in America, they call themselves Muslims but they have their own prophet and everything. They are not Muslims nor is their religion related to Islam in anyway. Same goes for Sikhism.
For the verification of any religion to be true or not there r ways to prove it right or wrong or ambigious.. Quran passes this test and it's the only Book which also helps you to prove it wrong like "produce a single Surah/chapter like it" till now no one could do that other tests like matching the verses with established science.. nothing contradicts and many other tests..
Idk any religion which says that this the last and final completed religion except Islam. It's exclusively mentioning it. As far as Nation of Islam is concerned, who was it's prophet? Elijah Muhammad? U know his background? Who assassinated Malcolm X ! And lots of crimes in the name of God and Black empowerment.

Hath these religion been truth it would not stop spreading comparatively. People will make different religions and claim false prophecy it's ought to be but we have to test all of them if the pass the test of time!

The religion of Abraham is the same religion of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), ie, believing in One True God. Whatever the prophecy made by Muhammad(pbuh) everything is coming true.
The whole world will be Muslim soon. There will be nothing like sikhism, Christianity, Hinduism,Judaism,Taoism etc. The true religion will prevail and people will create and be divided in different sects of Islam and their goes a long prophecy till the Day.


"Fain would they extinguish Allah's light with their mouths but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected even though the unbelievers may detest (it).
It is He who hath sent His apostle with guidance and religion of truth to proclaim it over all religions even though the pagans may detest (it).-"

Quran 9:32-33
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Ejaz Ahmed
05-11-2018, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by anatolian
Trolling is detected
?? Something mature expected
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anatolian
05-11-2018, 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Ejaz Ahmed
?? Something mature expected
So pls list the differences of Islam and Sikhism as well
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Zafran
05-12-2018, 12:39 AM
salaam

There are many religions and spiritual movements that came after the last prophet Muhammad pbuh, - the first prophet of Islam was the first man Adam as. Sikhism is not the only religion that came after, there is Bahia faith, Mormonism, New age religions, ahmadis, etc.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by anatolian
So pls list the differences of Islam and Sikhism as well
They have 10 Gurus and 5 Ks (which are like pillars) - They believe in reincarnation like Hinduism and Buddhism. They came about after Guru Nanak had a spiritual awakening after 3 days. He went to Mecca as well (they claim). They fought the Mughals in the 15th century and later made an empire in Kashmir to Lahore under Ranjit Singh.
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azc
05-12-2018, 02:31 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

There are many religions and spiritual movements that came after the last prophet Muhammad pbuh, - the first prophet of Islam was the first man Adam as. Sikhism is not the only religion that came after, there is Bahia faith, Mormonism, New age religions, ahmadis, etc.

- - - Updated - - -



They have 10 Gurus and 5 Ks (which are like pillars) - They believe in reincarnation like Hinduism and Buddhism. They came about after Guru Nanak had a spiritual awakening after 3 days. He went to Mecca as well (they claim). They fought the Mughals in the 15th century and later made an empire in Kashmir to Lahore under Ranjit Singh.
and no non Muslim can visit makka, this is why it's also said that guru Nanak has become Muslim and Quran which he read is in firozpur gurudwara.
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JustTime
05-12-2018, 04:53 AM
Bahais, Sikhis, Druze, Shias and others are violating Islam in taking Prophets after Muhammad :saws1: and worshiping idols, and it was said by our Prophet :saws1: that 30 Dajjals will come to misguide the people.
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Islam-Sikhism
05-19-2018, 10:27 AM
Asalaamu 'alaikum,

Don't forget the da'wah website: Islam-Sikhism.info
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yandex
06-19-2018, 08:47 AM
Originally Posted by JustTime
Bahais, Sikhis, Druze, Shias and others are violating Islam in taking Prophets after Muhammad :saws1: and worshiping idols, and it was said by our Prophet :saws1: that 30 Dajjals will come to misguide the people.
Doesn't the Quran says God will only send messengers to a people except in their language?

And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (Quran 14 4)

Why can't then eg. Guru Nanak be the messenger for the Indians/Punjabis or Bahaullah for the Persians/Afghans etc?
They are not Arabs& Arabic is not their language.
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azc
06-19-2018, 09:33 AM
Originally Posted by yandex
Doesn't the Quran says God will only send messengers to a people except in their language? And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (Quran 14 4) Why can't then eg. Guru Nanak be the messenger for the Indians/Punjabis or Bahaullah for the Persians/Afghans etc? They are not Arabs& Arabic is not their language.
Doesn't the Quran says God will only send messengers to a people except in their language?
yes, and they came before prophet Muhammad s.a.w
Why can't then eg. Guru Nanak be the messenger for the Indians/Punjabis or Bahaullah for the Persians/Afghans etc?
No, they can't be, because they were born after the last messenger i.e. Hz Muhammad s.aw.
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Abz2000
06-19-2018, 02:21 PM
Each and every individual is being tried and sifted.Only the truth remains ultimately so please try to see the truth exactly as it is and don't judge it based upon a billion different opinions, but study the opinions in order to sift the truth - and then seek to do what is just.

You will be raised from the dead and judged for your actions - since God is in no way unjust.And beware of becoming or bowing to the idol shepherd - since God is your shepherd.

I honestly don't know where the Mahdi Meer statements come from but i did manage to take a lot of good advice from them, now it's my duty - as it has always been - to follow the best of paths - without allowing illogical and untrue superstitions to drive me to commit injustice.





13. Set forth to them, by way of a parable, the (story of) the Companions of the City. Behold!, there came apostles to it.
14. When We (first) sent to them two apostles, they rejected them: But We strengthened them with a third: they said, "Truly, we have been sent on a mission to you."
15. The (people) said: "Ye are only men like ourselves; and ((Allah)) Most Gracious sends no sort of revelation: ye do nothing but lie."
16. They said: "Our Lord doth know that we have been sent on a mission to you:
17. "And our duty is only to proclaim the clear Message."
18. The (people) said: "for us, we augur an evil omen from you: if ye desist not, we will certainly stone you. And a grievous punishment indeed will be inflicted on you by us."
19. They said: "Your evil omens are with yourselves: (deem ye this an evil omen). If ye are admonished? Nay, but ye are a people transgressing all bounds!"
20. Then there came running, from the farthest part of the City, a man, saying, "O my people! Obey the apostles:
21. "Obey those who ask no reward of you (for themselves), and who have themselves received Guidance.
22. "It would not be reasonable in me if I did not serve Him Who created me, and to Whom ye shall (all) be brought back.
23. "Shall I take (other) gods besides Him? If ((Allah)) Most Gracious should intend some adversity for me, of no use whatever will be their intercession for me, nor can they deliver me.
24. "I would indeed, if I were to do so, be in manifest Error.
25. "For me, I have faith in the Lord of you (all): listen, then, to me!"
26. It was said: "Enter thou the Garden." He said: "Ah me! Would that my People knew (what I know)!-
27. "For that my Lord has granted me Forgiveness and has enrolled me among those held in honour!"
28. And We sent not down against his People, after him, any hosts from heaven, nor was it needful for Us so to do.
29. It was no more than a single mighty Blast, and behold! they were (like ashes) quenched and silent.
30. Ah! Alas for (My) Servants! There comes not an apostle to them but they mock him!
31. See they not how many generations before them we destroyed? Not to them will they return:
32. But each one of them all - will be brought before Us (for judgment).

From Quran, Chapter 36 - YAA SEEN.
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yandex
06-20-2018, 03:34 AM
Originally Posted by azc
yes, and they came before prophet Muhammad s.a.w No, they can't be, because they were born after the last messenger i.e. Hz Muhammad s.aw.
But since prophet Muhammad only spoke Arabic, he could be the final prophet for the Arabs. How can he be a prophet/last prophet for the non Arabs? Quran clearly said your prophet speaks your language. In that case Guru Nanak, Bahaullah etc are still valid for their respective community right? Not only that, following verses shows that prophet Muhammad was sent for the Arabs in Mecca.

And this is a Book We have sent down, blessed (and) sincerely (verifying) that which was before (Literally: between its two hands) it, and for you to warn the Mother of the Towns (Makkah) and whomever are around it; and the ones who believe in the Hereafter believe in it, and they (constantly) preserve their prayer. (Quran 6 92)
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azc
06-20-2018, 06:17 AM
......

- - - Updated - - -
@yandex :

''This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.''
(The Holy Quran, Al-Maidah 5:3)

''the Qur'an was sent down as a guidance to the people with Clear Signs of the true guidance and as the Criterion (between right and wrong)'' (2:185)

“This is a declaration for humankind, a guidance and admonition to those who ward off (evil)”. (3:138)

“A Book We have sent down to you so that you may bring forth mankind from the darkness into the light......”. (14:1)

People speak thousands of languages and guidance for mankind is in Quran, but Quran is in Arabic, so real language of mankind is Arabic, whether or not people know it. So if you want guidance to right path, you have to learn Arabic or should to see translation of Quran.

Now no prophet will come.

Prophet s.a.w said:

''The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me.''

(Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Anas bin Malik)

Prophet s.a.w said:

''My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets.''

(Bukhari, Muslim,Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Tirmizi, Babu Khatimin-Nabiyyin, Musnad Abu Dawud Tayalisi)
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yandex
06-20-2018, 07:26 AM
Originally Posted by azc
......

- - - Updated - - -
@yandex:

''This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.''
(The Holy Quran, Al-Maidah 5:3)

''the Qur'an was sent down as a guidance to the people with Clear Signs of the true guidance and as the Criterion (between right and wrong)'' (2:185)

“This is a declaration for humankind, a guidance and admonition to those who ward off (evil)”. (3:138)

“A Book We have sent down to you so that you may bring forth mankind from the darkness into the light......”. (14:1)

People speak thousands of languages and guidance for mankind is in Quran, but Quran is in Arabic, so real language of mankind is Arabic, whether or not people know it. So if you want guidance to right path, you have to learn Arabic or should to see translation of Quran.

Now no prophet will come.
Dear Azc,

You are implying that God sent about 124,000 prophets for maybe about 4000 years in all kind of languages for all kind of people then about 1500 years ago he stopped sending message after the supposedly last one in Arabic. So the entire world have to pick up Arabic!

1. Verses you quoted above 3:138 & 14:1. How do you reconcile with it verse 6 92 where it says Allah actually sent down the Quran to warn Mecca and its neighborhood only?

2. Even the Arabs who received the Quran in their own mother tongue could not understand the message in Arabic if its not in their dialect, then how can e.g a Japanese understand it before he can translate it?

Ubayy b. Ka'b reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was near the tank of Banu Ghifar that Gabriel came to him and said:
Allah has commanded you to recite to your people the Qur'an in one dialect. Upon this he said: I ask from Allah pardon and forgiveness. My people are not capable of doing it. He then came for the second time and said: Allah has commanded you that you should recite the Qur'an to your people in two dialects. Upon this he (the Holy prophet) again said: I seek pardon and forgiveness from Allah, my people would not be able to do so. He (Gabriel) came for the third time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in three dialects. Upon this he said: I ask pardon and forgiveness from Allah. My people would not be able to do it. He then came to him for the fourth time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in seven dialects, and in whichever dialect they would recite, they would be right.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 821 a The Book of Prayer - Travellers » Hadith
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Alamgir
06-20-2018, 09:20 AM
Originally Posted by yandex
Dear Azc,

You are implying that God sent about 124,000 prophets for maybe about 4000 years in all kind of languages for all kind of people then about 1500 years ago he stopped sending message after the supposedly last one in Arabic. So the entire world have to pick up Arabic!

1. Verses you quoted above 3:138 & 14:1. How do you reconcile with it verse 6 92 where it says Allah actually sent down the Quran to warn Mecca and its neighborhood only?

2. Even the Arabs who received the Quran in their own mother tongue could not understand the message in Arabic if its not in their dialect, then how can e.g a Japanese understand it before he can translate it?

Ubayy b. Ka'b reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was near the tank of Banu Ghifar that Gabriel came to him and said:
Allah has commanded you to recite to your people the Qur'an in one dialect. Upon this he said: I ask from Allah pardon and forgiveness. My people are not capable of doing it. He then came for the second time and said: Allah has commanded you that you should recite the Qur'an to your people in two dialects. Upon this he (the Holy prophet) again said: I seek pardon and forgiveness from Allah, my people would not be able to do so. He (Gabriel) came for the third time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in three dialects. Upon this he said: I ask pardon and forgiveness from Allah. My people would not be able to do it. He then came to him for the fourth time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in seven dialects, and in whichever dialect they would recite, they would be right.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 821 a The Book of Prayer - Travellers » Hadith
The last one had to come from somewhere, and had to speak somebody's language.

You don't have to learn Arabic, there are translations for a reason.

1. You don't have a knowledgeable background on Islam and as a result are just embarrassing yourself by making such stupid claims by cherry picking verses. Not a single Muslim in history has come up with that narrative despite studying Islam far longer than you have, so that you should tell you how invalid your argument is.

2. That's why the Quran was revealed with multiple Qira'at which are still around today. Also, again, there are translations. If I as a non-Arab can understand Islam, so can you. There is no excuse.
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azc
06-20-2018, 10:33 AM
Originally Posted by yandex
Dear Azc,

You are implying that God sent about 124,000 prophets for maybe about 4000 years in all kind of languages for all kind of people then about 1500 years ago he stopped sending message after the supposedly last one in Arabic. So the entire world have to pick up Arabic!

1. Verses you quoted above 3:138 & 14:1. How do you reconcile with it verse 6 92 where it says Allah actually sent down the Quran to warn Mecca and its neighborhood only?

2. Even the Arabs who received the Quran in their own mother tongue could not understand the message in Arabic if its not in their dialect, then how can e.g a Japanese understand it before he can translate it?

Ubayy b. Ka'b reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was near the tank of Banu Ghifar that Gabriel came to him and said:
Allah has commanded you to recite to your people the Qur'an in one dialect. Upon this he said: I ask from Allah pardon and forgiveness. My people are not capable of doing it. He then came for the second time and said: Allah has commanded you that you should recite the Qur'an to your people in two dialects. Upon this he (the Holy prophet) again said: I seek pardon and forgiveness from Allah, my people would not be able to do so. He (Gabriel) came for the third time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in three dialects. Upon this he said: I ask pardon and forgiveness from Allah. My people would not be able to do it. He then came to him for the fourth time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in seven dialects, and in whichever dialect they would recite, they would be right.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 821 a The Book of Prayer - Travellers » Hadith
6:92:

Because when he was commanded
''Arise, and give warning'' (74:2)

He warned his own clan, tribe and other people of makka first.

And

3:138 & 14:1, these verses were revealed after a long time

Arab people even today speak in different dialects but they understand Quran,
e.g. Levantine, Egyptian, Gulf, Hassaniya, Maghrebi, Mesopotamian/Iraqi, Sudanese, Yemeni etc
Reply

talibilm
06-20-2018, 12:09 PM
:sl:

Guru Nanak went to haj in blue costumes or Ihraam is what the sikhs say. After my own studies once a long ago on them, as Sikhs call Allah as Rahim etc my conclusion was that Guru Nanak was a Muslim with some secular ideas and those followers went to extremes leading to shirk though they say they call One God but they have given a few attributes of the Lord to their Guru pushing them into Shirk and not accepting Prophet Muhammad :Saws: as Last Prophet is kufar Akbar too.
Reply

Abz2000
06-20-2018, 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by yandex
But since prophet Muhammad only spoke Arabic, he could be the final prophet for the Arabs. How can he be a prophet/last prophet for the non Arabs? Quran clearly said your prophet speaks your language. In that case Guru Nanak, Bahaullah etc are still valid for their respective community right? Not only that, following verses shows that prophet Muhammad was sent for the Arabs in Mecca.

And this is a Book We have sent down, blessed (and) sincerely (verifying) that which was before (Literally: between its two hands) it, and for you to warn the Mother of the Towns (Makkah) and whomever are around it; and the ones who believe in the Hereafter believe in it, and they (constantly) preserve their prayer. (Quran 6 92)


The learned scholars of Bani Isra-eel knew that The Prophet that was eagerly awaited to free them from bondage to the curses of the law would come to Arabia and the covenant to support him was made at Sinai - this is how Salmaan Al Faarisi arrived in Arabia from Persia via Ash-Shaam.

The letters of Paul also allude to it (although it has been polluted with statements of false pride - search " kjv two covenants agar sinai arabia " (agar is hajar the mother of Isma'eel - the father of the Arabs) and refer to Allah's reminder to them in surah Al Baqarah Ch.2 and also to their covenant in Deuteronomy to assist the idol smashing Prophet)


192. Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds:
193. With it came down the spirit of Faith and Truth-
194. To thy heart and mind, that thou mayest admonish.
195. In the perspicuous Arabic tongue.
196. Without doubt it is (announced) in the Books of former peoples.
197. Is it not a Sign to them that the Learned of the Children of Israel knew it (as true)?
198. Had We revealed it to any of the non-Arabs,
199. And had he recited it to them, they would not have believed in it.

200. Thus have We caused it to enter the hearts of the sinners.
201. They will not believe in it until they see the grievous Penalty;
202. But the (Penalty) will come to them of a sudden, while they perceive it not;
203. Then they will say: “Shall we be respited?”
204. Do they then ask for Our Penalty to be hastened on?
205. Seest thou? If We do let them enjoy (this life) for a few years,
206. Yet there comes to them at length the (Punishment) which they were promised!
207. It will profit them not that they enjoyed (this life)!
208. Never did We destroy a population, but had its warners –
209. By way of reminder; and We never are unjust.
210. No evil ones have brought down this (Revelation):
211. It would neither suit them nor would they be able (to produce it).
212. Indeed they have been removed far from even (a chance of) hearing it.
213. So call not on any other god with Allah, or thou wilt be among those under the Penalty.
214. And admonish thy nearest kinsmen,
215. And lower thy wing to the Believers who follow thee.
216. Then if they disobey thee, say: “I am free (of responsibility) for what ye do!”
217. And put thy trust on the Exalted in Might, the Merciful,-
218. Who seeth thee standing forth (in prayer),
219. And thy movements among those who prostrate themselves,
220. For it is He Who heareth and knoweth all things.
221. Shall I inform you, (O people!), on whom it is that the evil ones descend?
222. They descend on every lying, wicked person,
223. (Into whose ears) they pour hearsay vanities, and most of them are liars.
224. And the Poets,- It is those straying in Evil, who follow them:
225. Seest thou not that they wander distracted in every valley?-
226. And that they say what they practise not?-
227. Except those who believe, work righteousness, engage much in the remembrance of Allah, and defend themselves after they are unjustly attacked. And soon will the unjust assailants know what vicissitudes their affairs will take!

From Quran Chapter 26


---
The Messenger would be Arab - and i can think of no logical reason to send the message in a different tongue - especially since Arabic is such an eloquent yet condensed language.
---



43. Nothing is said to thee that was not said to the apostles before thee: that thy lord has at his Command (all) forgiveness as well as a most Grievous Penalty.
44. Had We sent this as a Qur’an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said: “Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?” Say: “It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!”

From Quran Chapter 41





154. When the anger of Moses was appeased, he took up the tablets: in the writing thereon was guidance and Mercy for such as fear their Lord.
155. And Moses chose seventy of his people for Our place of meeting: when they were seized with violent quaking, he prayed: “O my Lord! if it had been Thy will Thou couldst have destroyed, long before, both them and me: wouldst Thou destroy us for the deeds of the foolish ones among us? this is no more than Thy trial: by it Thou causest whom Thou wilt to stray, and Thou leadest whom Thou wilt into the right path. Thou art our Protector: so forgive us and give us Thy mercy; for Thou art the best of those who forgive.
156. “And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter: for we have turned unto Thee.” He said: “With My punishment I visit whom I will; but My mercy extendeth to all things. That (mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practise regular charity, and those who believe in Our signs;-
157. “Those who follow the Messenger - The Unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.”
158. day: “O humankind! I am sent unto you ALL as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided.”


From Quran Chapter 7




Although Pauls open reference to the "promise" / covenant is found in his letter to the Galatians (he used to raid the houses of believers and confiscate material before he accepted and submitted - then encoded a bunch of gems into stuff that appears as nonsense to the careless) - i couldn't find it in the O.T - Although Allah mentions it in the Quran - indicating that it was removed from the O.T later than Paul (but i've already seen how slyly this is done via my readings of recent Bengali versions of the bible via comparison to English versions).



22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

From Galatians 4


The final reference he made to the young woman sent to the desolate wilderness is to be found in Isaiah 54. It also mentions that He - the God of Israel - is called "the God of All the earth" - even though the Law of Moses was to the chosen tribe, the Children of Israel - and so was Messiah 1.0 (primarily) - all announcing God's future mercy to the whole world.
Zechariah 14.9 confirms that it is a future Promise.
Also the questions to the Baptist in the opening chapter of the gospel according to John and also John 6:14 make it clear that That Prophet that should come into the world was yet awaited and that he was not the Messiah (John 7:40-41) - therefore AFTER Messiah 1.0





40. O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.
41. And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
42. And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
43. And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).
44. Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?
45. Nay, seek ((Allah)’s) help with patient perseverance and prayer: It is indeed hard, except to those who bring a lowly spirit,-
46. Who bear in mind the certainty that they are to meet their Lord, and that they are to return to Him.
47. O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message).
48. Then guard yourselves against a day when one soul shall not avail another nor shall intercession be accepted for her, nor shall compensation be taken from her, nor shall anyone be helped.

From Quran Chapter 2 Al Baqarah
Reply

Zzz_
06-20-2018, 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by yandex
Doesn't the Quran says God will only send messengers to a people except in their language?

And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (Quran 14 4)

Why can't then eg. Guru Nanak be the messenger for the Indians/Punjabis or Bahaullah for the Persians/Afghans etc?
They are not Arabs& Arabic is not their language.
Who is to say that those people have not already a prophet sent to them ?

Sikhism is a new religion, borrowed concepts from budhism, hindusim and islam. Hinduism is the actual oldest religion of the subcontinent. And their vedas and other holly books say the same thing that there is only One being and there are none like Him. Who is to say these weren't their real scriptures before all the mythology and smurfs were added in there?

Whatever the history might be, the fact and reality is Islam is the final religion, Quran the final scriptures and Mohammad s.a.w. the final prophet/messenger. To believe anything else is kufr.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meanings):


“This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion” [al-Maa’idah 5:3]



“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85].
Reply

talibilm
06-21-2018, 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by Ishil
Quran clearly says that project Muhammad is the last messenger for the whole of humanity , then how come any religion after Islam eg.SIKHISM can come.
Religion meant Major Religion with the Apostle with Miracles , Prophesies (as laid down even By Books of Major religions like John 16:13-15 and OT (Deuteronomy) who is a Prophet ? ) and holy books. While Sikhism before 300 years is Group of followers or a COMMUNITY neither had Miracles or Prophesies nor their holy book is Book of God since it does not claim so nor narrate any histories of Creations of Adam etc or about God or the past but contain teachings and opinions of their Guru and biography. imo this is a break away Religion from Islam like bahaism , ahmadhiyas etc as they call Allah as Rahim etc the attributes of Allah but are more deluded than the two. They raise their Guru with attributes of Allah so that is shirk and kufr the similarities found in them is because their Guru was a Muslim ( Guru Nanak could have been like A Peer etc but with misguided followers ) Not to forget about 30 liars of false Prophet claims in hadith too



Originally Posted by talibilm

Guru Nanak went to haj in blue costumes or Ihraam is what the sikhs say. After my own studies once a long ago on them, as Sikhs call Allah as Rahim etc my conclusion was that Guru Nanak was a Muslim with some secular ideas and those followers went to extremes leading to shirk though they say they call One God but they have given a few attributes of the Lord to their Guru pushing them into Shirk and not accepting Prophet Muhammad :Saws: as Last Prophet is kufar Akbar too.
So better Listen from a Knowledgeable Sikh here in this thread which proves my claims above

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ption+of+sikhs
Reply

yandex
06-21-2018, 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
The last one had to come from somewhere, and had to speak somebody's language.

You don't have to learn Arabic, there are translations for a reason.

1. You don't have a knowledgeable background on Islam and as a result are just embarrassing yourself by making such stupid claims by cherry picking verses. Not a single Muslim in history has come up with that narrative despite studying Islam far longer than you have, so that you should tell you how invalid your argument is.

2. That's why the Quran was revealed with multiple Qira'at which are still around today. Also, again, there are translations. If I as a non-Arab can understand Islam, so can you. There is no excuse.
Nothing to be embarrassed about learning curve or bringing forth a narrative with actual references of the Quran & authentic Sunnah I think.
Thanks

Originally Posted by azc
6:92:
Because when he was commanded
''Arise, and give warning'' (74:2)

He warned his own clan, tribe and other people of makka first.

And

3:138 & 14:1, these verses were revealed after a long time
Ok, valid point. Thanks
You quoted this verse to me in your earlier post:

''This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.''
(The Holy Quran, Al-Maidah 5:3)


Can you please explain how come Islam has been perfected for the prophet and Allah hs completed his favor on him on that day?
Al-Maidah is just the chapter 112 by order of revelation of total 114 with hundreds of verses yet to be revealed? Thanks
Reply

Alamgir
06-21-2018, 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by yandex
Nothing to be embarrassed about learning curve or bringing forth a narrative with actual references of the Quran & authentic Sunnah I think.
Thanks
It is if taken out of context and used to support a clearly invalid argument, but you're right, there is a learning curve.
Reply

Ümit
06-21-2018, 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by yandex
Dear Azc,

You are implying that God sent about 124,000 prophets for maybe about 4000 years in all kind of languages for all kind of people then about 1500 years ago he stopped sending message after the supposedly last one in Arabic. So the entire world have to pick up Arabic!
We do not know the exact amount of Prophets but it may be a few hundred, a few thousand or even in hundreds thousands. We only know that the there have been sent much more prophets than the ones mentioned in the Quran.
Where does that 4000 years come from? We know that Isa as lived about 2000 years ago, and that some of the prophets (like Adam as and Noah as I believe) lived 1000 years. so, this 4000 years cannot be correct
Originally Posted by yandex


1. Verses you quoted above 3:138 & 14:1. How do you reconcile with it verse 6 92 where it says Allah actually sent down the Quran to warn Mecca and its neighborhood only?

2. Even the Arabs who received the Quran in their own mother tongue could not understand the message in Arabic if its not in their dialect, then how can e.g a Japanese understand it before he can translate it?
The human kind developed thoughout the centuries. If the Quran was sent down to all mankind 4000 years ago, how do you think people on the other side of the world would take notice of this?
people did not have the ability to spread the word around the globe back then...language was a big issue...narrations and verses were passed on to each other verbally. So instead, prophets have been send to reach even the most remote locations on Earth. The basic message of all the prophets were the same...but some details may have been different, say customized for a certain region or for certain group of people.

Nowadays we all have internet. you could just open up a web browser and download and read the Quran...you could find translations of it in every language. so, it is not a barrier anymore. you could just get in a plane and in less than a day you would be on the other side of the world...it is accessible to anyone. the Quran is well preserved, no chance for altering it anymore...so the need for another prophet is not there.

Originally Posted by yandex

Ubayy b. Ka'b reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was near the tank of Banu Ghifar that Gabriel came to him and said:
Allah has commanded you to recite to your people the Qur'an in one dialect. Upon this he said: I ask from Allah pardon and forgiveness. My people are not capable of doing it. He then came for the second time and said: Allah has commanded you that you should recite the Qur'an to your people in two dialects. Upon this he (the Holy prophet) again said: I seek pardon and forgiveness from Allah, my people would not be able to do so. He (Gabriel) came for the third time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in three dialects. Upon this he said: I ask pardon and forgiveness from Allah. My people would not be able to do it. He then came to him for the fourth time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in seven dialects, and in whichever dialect they would recite, they would be right.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 821 a The Book of Prayer - Travellers » Hadith
Reply

yandex
06-22-2018, 05:26 AM
1.To be fair and honest to all, after checking (correct me if I'm wrong), nowhere in the Quran its says Muhammad is the last of the messengers (Rasool). It only says he is the seal/last of the prophets (Nabi).

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
(Quran 33: 40)


So let me rephrase, why can't it be that there are some other later messengers even if they are not prophets?

2. On the argument of the whether prophet Muhammad is for the Arabs or the whole mankind, some members were kind enough to show me verses 3:138, 14:1 & 41 :158 which proclaims prophet Muhammad is for all. In this context, just randomly I found some verses to be sort of Arab centric & doesn't seemed to be addressed to all mankind.

It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives [for sexual relations]. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread [of night]. Then complete the fast until the sunset. And do not have relations with them as long as you are staying for worship in the mosques. These are the limits [set by] Allah, so do not approach them. Thus does Allah make clear His ordinances to the people that they may become righteous. (Quran 2 187)


The above verse on fasting, surely Allah is All knowing that the instruction above cannot be followed by people living in eg. Northern Russia/ South Chile etc as there are no sunrise/sunset for months.

There are they watered with a cup whereof the mixture is of Zanjabil (ginger) (Quran 76: 17)

The above verse describes ginger as a reward in paradise! I mean it may be a exotic spice and a big deal for the desert Bedouins of 7th century but for the people of China & Far East its a common kitchen item.

Perhaps some members can share you thoughts. Thanks
Reply

Ümit
06-22-2018, 07:05 AM
Originally Posted by yandex
1.To be fair and honest to all, after checking (correct me if I'm wrong), nowhere in the Quran its says Muhammad is the last of the messengers (Rasool). It only says he is the seal/last of the prophets (Nabi).

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
(Quran 33: 40)


So let me rephrase, why can't it be that there are some other later messengers even if they are not prophets?
I do not know where you got this translation from. I checked several sites with this verse. I understand 4 different languages, and if I look at different translations of this verse, then all of them speak about the last prophet:

In English:
http://www.recitequran.com/tafsir/en.ibn-kathir/33:40
but he is the Messenger of Allah and the last of the Prophets. And Allah is Ever All-Aware of everything.)

https://quran.com/33/40
Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing.

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/33:40
Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing.

In Dutch:
http://www.recitequran.com/nl/33:40
Moehammad is niet de vader van één van jullie mannen, maar hij is de Boodschapper van Allah en de laatste van de Profeten. En Allah is Alwetend over alle zaken.

In German:
http://islam.de/1382.php
Muhammad ist nicht der Vater eines eurer Männer, sondern der Gesandte Allahs und der letzte aller Propheten, und Allah besitzt die volle Kenntnis aller Dinge.

In Turkish:
Muhammed, sizin erkeklerinizden hiçbirinin babası değildir. Fakat o, Allah’ın Resûlü ve nebîlerin sonuncusudur. Allah, her şeyi hakkıyla bilendir.


I only found 2 sites in English where the word "seal" is being used.

So it is a matter of translation.

then, here is a quote from Islamqa
https://islamqa.info/en/113393
Please clarify the evidences that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the last messenger and prophet. As all evidences are clear that he is the last prophet only and does not indicate that he is the last messenger.
Published Date: 2008-03-12
Praise be to Allaah. The scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) differed concerning the difference between a Prophet and a Messenger. The majority of scholars are of the view that a Prophet is one who received Revelation from Allaah but was not commanded to convey it, whereas a Messenger is one who received Revelation and was commanded to convey it.
But despite this difference of opinion, they are unanimously agreed that a Messenger is superior to a Prophet, and that a Messenger attained the honour of Prophethood and more. Hence they said: Every Messenger is a Prophet, but not every Prophet is a Messenger.
Thus it is clear that everything which says that the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the Seal of the Prophets and that there is no Prophet after him indicates that there is no Messenger after him either, because there cannot be any Messenger who is not also a Prophet.
If the text said that the Messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the Seal of the Messengers, that would not suggest that there would be no Prophet after him, because it would be possible for there to be a Prophet who was not a Messenger.
But, the text states that the Messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the Seal of the Prophets and that there will be no Prophet after him and this means that there can be no Prophet after him and no Messenger after him.
Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
“but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the last (end) of the Prophets” [al-Ahzaab 33:40]. This verse states that there will be no Prophet after him, and if there will be no Prophet after him, then there can be no Messenger after him either, because the status of Messenger is higher than the status of Prophet; a Messenger is also a Prophet but the converse is not necessarily the case.
Tafseer Ibn Katheer (3/645).
Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: If he was the Seal of the Prophets then he was also the Seal of the Messengers for sure, because there is no Messenger who is not also a Prophet. Hence it is said: Every Messenger is a Prophet but not every Prophet is a Messenger. End quote.
Majmoo’ Fataawa Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (1/250).
And Allaah knows best.



Originally Posted by yandex
2. On the argument of the whether prophet Muhammad is for the Arabs or the whole mankind, some members were kind enough to show me verses 3:138, 14:1 & 41 :158 which proclaims prophet Muhammad is for all. In this context, just randomly I found some verses to be sort of Arab centric & doesn't seemed to be addressed to all mankind.

It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives [for sexual relations]. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread [of night]. Then complete the fast until the sunset. And do not have relations with them as long as you are staying for worship in the mosques. These are the limits [set by] Allah, so do not approach them. Thus does Allah make clear His ordinances to the people that they may become righteous. (Quran 2 187)


The above verse on fasting, surely Allah is All knowing that the instruction above cannot be followed by people living in eg. Northern Russia/ South Chile etc as there are no sunrise/sunset for months.
I have to do a little research to give you an answer on this. But, it is clear that people in countries where the sun does not set and rise every 24 hours have to use the times of the nearest region where the sun does rise and set.
but lets talk about people who are not on earth at all...
Do you now claim that Allah, as he could foresee that the mankind would be able to leave the Earth and walk on the moon one day, should have provided verses in the Quraan how people must pray in space?
Does that mean Islam is not for astronauts?
Or does that mean Muslims can not travel to the poles, nor go outer space?
Originally Posted by yandex

There are they watered with a cup whereof the mixture is of Zanjabil (ginger) (Quran 76: 17)

The above verse describes ginger as a reward in paradise! I mean it may be a exotic spice and a big deal for the desert Bedouins of 7th century but for the people of China & Far East its a common kitchen item.

Perhaps some members can share you thoughts. Thanks
So, what does that mean?
In paradise we also are allowed wine.
In my younger years I frequently consumed alcohol...but I never liked wine. the smell alone was disgusting. But appearantly, it will taste delicious in paradise.
Reply

talibilm
06-22-2018, 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by yandex
1.To be fair and honest to all, after checking (correct me if I'm wrong), nowhere in the Quran its says Muhammad is the last of the messengers (Rasool). It only says he is the seal/last of the prophets (Nabi).

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
(Quran 33: 40)


So let me rephrase, why can't it be that there are some other later messengers even if they are not prophets?


Perhaps some members can share you thoughts. Thanks
Scholars have already pondered on the word 'Seal ' in the Glorious Quran which is also seen in verses that says that disbelievers hearts are sealed so they do not understand anything etc shows perfectly 'Seal' means 'closed for good' AND ALSO as certain words in certain languages do have additional meanings.


here are those other verses

2:7. ;;Allâh has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allâh's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.''

36:65. This Day, We shall seal up their mouths, and their hands will speak to Us, and their legs will bear witness to what they used to earn. (It is said that one's left thigh will be the first to bear the witness).

83:25. They will be given to drink pure sealed wine



is there any hadith stronger than last Sermon of Prophet :saws: which was witnessed by 10,000 s which also Reiterated by the spirit of truth (as called by Isa AS ) , Al Ameen , Assaadique, Prophet Muhammad :saws: ?? just 3-4 months before his blessed demise !!



''After praising and thanking Allah the Prophet (saws) said:

“O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me, and no new faith will be born.Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand my words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur’an and my Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray. ...........................'

'




So the above challenge stands for 1439 years and NO NEW ''FAITH & APOSTLE '' has ever come after Islam except those copied from Islam or those 30 liars already Prophesied by Prophet :saws: with the first was ' Musailamah al kadzab' already lived during the life of Prophet :saws: and so many cults that have born are not religions nor they are Prophets with the Miracles and Scriptures and other issues have been answered well by our brethren here

So Yanndex could you please let us know are you a Bahai, or Ahmadhia -Qadiyani ,etc so that makes you SO CONFUSED even in the articles of our Islamic Faith. ??
Reply

azc
06-22-2018, 04:13 PM
@yandex :

Imam Ahmad (17405), at-Tirmidhi (3686) and al-Haakim (4495) narrated via Mishrah ibn Haa ‘aan, from ‘Uqbah ibn ‘Aamir (may Allah be pleased with him) who said:

''I heard the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) say: “If there were to be a Prophet after me, it would be ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab.”
Reply

yandex
06-25-2018, 04:12 AM
Originally Posted by Zzz_
“This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion” [al-Maa’idah 5:3]
Members keep referring to me the above verse but I don't understand how Islam has been perfected for the prophet and Allah has completed his favor on him on that day when Quran is not complete? Al-Maidah is just the chapter 112 by order of revelation of total 114 with hundreds of verses yet to be revealed!

Dear unmi/talibilm/azc,

You are right , Vere 33 40 does say Muhammad is the last Nabi. What I'm alluding is, no where in the Quran it says Muhammad is the last Rasool.
All your references you provided of scholars saying that Muhammad is the last Rasool, it is derived from the hadiths only because they can find none in the Quran.
Of course if a certain narrative is perpetuated long enough , it becomes "established". This is a fact not only in Islam but all other religions.
When the Quran & hadiths differ, how come hadith supersede the word of Allah? There are other examples which I can cite, like the scholars say idols are haram even as art etc. That's because of the hadiths. Also this is an "established" believe for Muslims now. But If you look as the Quran, it only says idolatry is haram, no where it says idols are haram (as long its not for worship). In fact even prophets of Islam had collections of it probably for art/esthetics etc. Again this is a case which seems the hadith has superseded the Quran. How come? I don't get it.

They made for him what he willed: synagogues and statues, basins like wells and boilers built into the ground. Give thanks, O House of David! Few of My bondmen are thankful. (Quran 34 13)

Thanks
Reply

azc
06-25-2018, 10:13 AM
@yandex :

Which religion do you follow.?
Al-Maidah is just the chapter 112 by order of revelation of total 114 with hundreds of verses yet to be revealed!
Quran was not revealed in form of a complete book like the books of Musa a.s or Isa a.s etc, rather it was revealed bit by bit regardless of order of verses or chapters but all the revealed verses would be added in their respective chapters at the behest of prophet s.a.w.

In other words:

Qur’an’s chapters and verses are not compiled in the mushaf in the chronological order of their revelation. There is consensus that it was Prophet Muhammad s.a.w who identified the place of each verse within its chapter. There are a number of hadiths in the Musnad of Ahmad bin Hanbal ,Sunnan of at-Tarmithi, and other hadith sources that state that the Messenger s.a.w used to tell the recorders of the revelation in which chapters to place newly revealed verses.
The fact that the chapters and verses are not chronologically listed in the mushaf means, among other things, that the earliest verse that was revealed to Prophet Muhammad s.a.w is not the first verse of the first chapter in the mushaf. Similarly, the last verse to be revealed is not the last verse of the mushaf. Put differently, the first and last verses of the mushaf do not represent the first and last verses of the Qur’an.

When the Quran & hadiths differ, how come hadith supersede the word of Allah?
''Thus to you, O Prophet, We have sent down the Quran as a final reminde r of God’s way, so that you make clear to all people the word of God that has come down to them, and so that they may reflect on it and be guided[Sûrat Al-Naḥl, 16:44]
How would prophet s.a.w explain the verses or would infer the rulings from revealed verses would be known to companions RA and details whereof can be seen in in ahadith, fiqh and interpretation of Quran/ahadith.


You are right , Vere 33 40 does say Muhammad is the last Nabi. What I'm alluding is, no where in the Quran it says Muhammad is the last Rasool.
There is difference between a rasool and a nabi.
Rasool is he who would be given a new revealed holy book to guide his nation where nabi had to follow his predecessor's book and guide his nation accordingly.

As Allah s.w.t is all Knowing. He knew some liars till this world exist will keep on emerging to claim of being 'nabi' (not rasool).

If someone claims to be a rasool he's to show a comprehensive revealed holy book, so none could ever claim to be a rasool but some liars claimed to be nabi and this is why Quran outright reject them ''there is NO Nabi after Muhammad s.a.w''
And Muhammad s.a.w is the last Rasool as well as the last nabi.
Reply

Zzz_
06-26-2018, 01:04 AM
Originally Posted by yandex
Members keep referring to me the above verse but I don't understand how Islam has been perfected for the prophet and Allah has completed his favor on him on that day when Quran is not complete? Al-Maidah is just the chapter 112 by order of revelation of total 114 with hundreds of verses yet to be revealed!


Thanks
Each verse was revealed when it was relevant and applied to the situation. Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years, not over night. And it was ordered and compiled into one text book later.
Reply

yandex
06-26-2018, 03:27 AM
@yandex:

Which religion do you follow.?
I'm a freethinker from mixed background and yes I have Muslim relatives.


Qur’an’s chapters and verses are not compiled in the mushaf in the chronological order of their revelation. There is consensus that it was Prophet Muhammad s.a.w who identified the place of each verse within its chapter. There are a number of hadiths in the Musnad of Ahmad bin Hanbal ,Sunnan of at-Tarmithi, and other hadith sources that state that the Messenger s.a.w used to tell the recorders of the revelation in which chapters to place newly revealed verses.
The fact that the chapters and verses are not chronologically listed in the mushaf means, among other things, that the earliest verse that was revealed to Prophet Muhammad s.a.w is not the first verse of the first chapter in the mushaf. Similarly, the last verse to be revealed is not the last verse of the mushaf. Put differently, the first and last verses of the mushaf do not represent the first and last verses of the Qur’an.
I understand that the mushaf is not in chronological order of revelation.Al- Maidah is now chapter 5 in the mushaf.
According to scholars including Ibn Abbas the cousin of prophet Muhammad, Al Maidah is chapter 112 of 114. in order of revelation by Allah. My point is that verse 3 that says "Islam has been perfected & Allah has completed his favor on prophet Muhammad on this day" does not make sense if it is not at the end of the Quran and according to Muslim scholar themselves the last verses revealed is not this but in An Nasr!

http://tanzil.net/docs/revelation_order

''Thus to you, O Prophet, We have sent down the Quran as a final reminde r of God’s way, so that you make clear to all people the word of God that has come down to them, and so that they may reflect on it and be guided[Sûrat Al-Naḥl, 16:44]
How would prophet s.a.w explain the verses or would infer the rulings from revealed verses would be known to companions RA and details whereof can be seen in in ahadith, fiqh and interpretation of Quran/ahadith.
Of course hadiths are there to support the Quranic verses but when the is divergence between Quran and hadith, sometimes Muslims choose the hadith over the Quran as I showed in my previous post.

If someone claims to be a rasool he's to show a comprehensive revealed holy book, so none could ever claim to be a rasool but some liars claimed to be nabi and this is why Quran outright reject them ''there is NO Nabi after Muhammad s.a.w''
And Muhammad s.a.w is the last Rasool as well as the last nabi.
Your quote above contradicts with what you quoted in your earlier post as below. Quran says no more Nabi but the hadith says Umar could be one!!

Originally Posted by azc
@yandex:
Imam Ahmad (17405), at-Tirmidhi (3686) and al-Haakim (4495) narrated via Mishrah ibn Haa ‘aan, from ‘Uqbah ibn ‘Aamir (may Allah be pleased with him) who said:
''I heard the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) say: “If there were to be a Prophet after me, it would be ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab.”
As for new rasools, why not Guru Nanak or Bahau'ullah or others be one? They have a Book, they performed miracles etc according to their believers.
Some of the forum members insist that the holy Book must contain story of Adam & Eve etc to be valid but who set this criteria & why the same story need to be repeated endlessly? For instance, according to the Quran the Sabians are also people of the Book. What is their book? Does it contain Adam & Eve stories, were there mircles by the rasools of the Sabians etc? Also, I don't remember even prophet Muhammad performing any miracles to proof he is a rasool. Why set the bar higher for the rest?

Thanks
Reply

Zafran
06-26-2018, 04:20 AM
Originally Posted by yandex
I'm a freethinker from mixed background and yes I have Muslim relatives.
what does that mean atheist?


Originally Posted by yandex
I understand that the mushaf is not in chronological order of revelation.Al- Maidah is now chapter 5 in the mushaf.
According to scholars including Ibn Abbas the cousin of prophet Muhammad, Al Maidah is chapter 112 of 114. in order of revelation by Allah. My point is that verse 3 that says "Islam has been perfected & Allah has completed his favor on prophet Muhammad on this day" does not make sense if it is not at the end of the Quran and according to Muslim scholar themselves the last verses revealed is not this but in An Nasr!
and the the "perfected your religion verse" - which was said on the last sermon of the prophet. The Quran is a Revelation from God does not have a linear narrative.


Originally Posted by yandex
Of course hadiths are there to support the Quranic verses but when the is divergence between Quran and hadith, sometimes Muslims choose the hadith over the Quran as I showed in my previous post.
not necessarily

Originally Posted by yandex
Your quote above contradicts with what you quoted in your earlier post as below. Quran says no more Nabi but the hadith says Umar could be one!!
That is not what the hadith says.......
Originally Posted by yandex
As for new rasools, why not Guru Nanak or Bahau'ullah or others be one? They have a Book, they performed miracles etc according to their believers.
Some of the forum members insist that the holy Book must contain story of Adam & Eve etc to be valid but who set this criteria & why the same story need to be repeated endlessly? For instance, according to the Quran the Sabians are also people of the Book. What is their book? Does it contain Adam & Eve stories, were there mircles by the rasools of the Sabians etc? Also, I don't remember even prophet Muhammad performing any miracles to proof he is a rasool. Why set the bar higher for the rest?
The sabiens are not regarded as people of the book. Why should one accept Guru Nanak or the Bahi faith? why should one even regard them as prophets when they contradict prophet Muhammad pbuh teachings.

Prophet Muhammad pbuh transformed human history he led a polytheistic people to monotheism - he guided people from tribal morality to a transcendental morality.
He called for an afterlife that one has to urgently take in account - what do the others have to offer here?
The Quran is the miracle.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Ishil
Quran clearly says that project Muhammad is the last messenger for the whole of humanity , then how come any religion after Islam eg.SIKHISM can come.
There are many religions that people follow But Islam is the first religion of the person Adam (pbuh) and the last prophet Muhammad pbuh. There are others like Mormonism, Bai Faith, etc as well. Why should one follow them when they lack urgency.
Reply

yandex
06-26-2018, 05:05 AM
what does that mean atheist?
Dear Zafran, I don't associate myself with any organized religion that's all. I don't deny God.

and the the "perfected your religion verse" - which was said on the last sermon of the prophet. The Quran is a Revelation from God does not have a linear narrative.
It doesn't make sense to say "this day Islam is perfected & all favor to prophet Muhammad is completed" when the Quran is mid way of revelation. Unless Ibn Abbas' chronological order is wrong.

not necessarily
I have shown Muslims do sometimes supersede the hadith over Quran, read my previous posts.

The sabiens are not regarded as people of the book. Why should one accept Guru Nanak or the Bahi faith? why should one even regard them as prophets when they contradict prophet Muhammad pbuh teachings.Prophet Muhammad pbuh transformed human history he led a polytheistic people to monotheism - he guided people from tribal morality to a transcendental morality.
He called for an afterlife that one has to urgently take in account - what do the others have to offer here?
The Quran is the miracle.
Sabians are people with knowledge of Allah & Last day & Allah will reward them along Muslims, Christians & Jews. How can they if Allah did not give them a book/prophet?

‘The (Muslim) believers, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabians - all those who believe in Allāh and the Last Day and do good - will have their rewards with their Lord. No fear for them, nor will they grieve.’ (Al-Baqara 62).

I'm not preaching Sikhism & Bahai religion here, just suggesting they could be possible Rasools for their respective followers. Using the Quran, I'm just making a case that prophet Muhammad could be the last Nabi but may not be the last Rasool and possibly prophet Muhammad was sent to the Arabs only instead of the whole world. Please read all my previous posts. Regarding afterlife, they are also addressed in Sikhism/Bahai & I thnik all religions do. As for the miracle part, I only commented because other members are the ones who set miracles as criteria for being Nabi/Rasool not me. That's all.

Thanks
Reply

azc
06-26-2018, 05:27 AM
@yandex :

I'm a freethinker from mixed background
chaotic thinking...!

As for new rasools, why not Guru Nanak or Bahau'ullah or others be one? They have a Book
No.
E.g. What is gurugranth sahib..?
It contains poems only. What is wrong if someone begins to believe in Shakespeare, wordswoth, browning,iqbal tagore or tulsidas as prophet...?

In every street you can see a new prophet if he knows poetry..?

Prophethood is nothing but a joke for you.

Btw, I can write poems in Urdu....????

Quran says no more Nabi but the hadith says Umar could be one!!
You couldn't understand it. Now see it again:

Hz Muhammad s.a.w clearly said ''there is NO nabi after me but if it were any nabi after me, it would be umar''. It doesn't mean umar to be the next nabi...

Understand...?

does not make sense if it is not at the end of the Quran
what you say doesn't make sense
Reply

yandex
06-26-2018, 08:08 AM
[QUOTE=azc;2995092]@yandex:


chaotic thinking...!


No.
E.g. What is gurugranth sahib..?
It contains poems only. What is wrong if someone begins to believe in Shakespeare, wordswoth, browning,iqbal tagore or tulsidas as prophet...?
In every street you can see a new prophet if he knows poetry..?
Prophethood is nothing but a joke for you.
Btw, I can write poems in Urdu....????
Yes, the messages of Guru Granth Sahib are in poetic form which contains guidance for people. The form of the message itself doesn't determine truth/false.
Why is it an issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messag...u_Granth_Sahib

You couldn't understand it. Now see it again:
Hz Muhammad s.a.w clearly said ''there is NO nabi after me but if it were any nabi after me, it would be umar''. It doesn't mean umar to be the next nabi...
Understand...?
In this hadith, prophet Muhammad first said 1.There is NO Nabi after me. Then he said, 2. If there is Any, then it would be Umar.
According to this, it is the prophet himself unsure whether there will be next in line prophet or not. If he was sure, he would have stopped after saying line no.1. He doesn't need to add no.2. Btw, it is also interesting that according to other narrations , Allah often send down revelations upon Umar's wish which seems to be a very special privilege.

Thanks
Reply

Yahya.
06-26-2018, 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by yandex
I understand that the mushaf is not in chronological order of revelation.Al- Maidah is now chapter 5 in the mushaf.
According to scholars including Ibn Abbas the cousin of prophet Muhammad, Al Maidah is chapter 112 of 114. in order of revelation by Allah. My point is that verse 3 that says "Islam has been perfected & Allah has completed his favor on prophet Muhammad on this day" does not make sense if it is not at the end of the Quran and according to Muslim scholar themselves the last verses revealed is not this but in An Nasr!

http://tanzil.net/docs/revelation_order
If you read the list carefully, its says at the right column ("Notes"): "Except 3, revealed at Arafat on Last Hajj".
Then, regardless of whether it is succeeded by Surat Al-Nasr or not, the meaning stays the same. Because Surat Al-Nasr, which consists of three verses, does not contain any rule (hukm) and there is no change (naskh) in the shariah afterwards; so the religion is completed. Din may very well be used interchangeably with shariah. If the din is completed -and there is only one din before Allah-, it means there is no Rasul after this completion, because the Rasuls of Allah arrive with a new shariah. Just like Bahaullah pretended to do so.
Reply

talibilm
06-27-2018, 04:05 PM
:sl:

As per hadith there were about 310 Rasuls or Messengers and 124000 Nabis or Prophets , All messengers or Rasuls were Prophets but All Prophets were not Rasul.

Rasul normally meant to higher Calibre among Prophets who had mostly to face AGAINST with their Rulers or The Nation of their times Normally with a new Sharia and commandments.


For example though both Yahya AS and Eesa AS were contemporaries and relatives but still were not of the same calibre. Yahya AS was a Nabi or a Prophet, so he tried to remind , make people Allah conscious but did not come with a new law against anybody in Particular or against a Nation but Isa AS was a Nabi and a Rasul so he came against the banI Israeel with the new law Injeel.

Similarly Musa AS and Shuaib As ie his father in Law were both Prophets but Musa As had an extra degree of becoming The Rasul or Messenger only after his departure from his Father in Law's place at the sacred valley of Thuwa, https://legacy.quran.com/20/12 when he went to pick up a fire to warm themselves Where Allah's call Intercepted him and spoke to him directly and made him a Rasul Assigning him to go to Firaun with a mission ( now he Becomes a Rasul or a Messenger ),before this juncture he was only a Nabi or Prophet who believed Allah and was spreading the Haq of eemaan and righteousness on the Land as a Nabi or Prophet . So when there is seal ( Closure) of Nabi or Prophethood Itself and there is nothing more to talk about the possibility of the coming of a Rasul since a Rasul has to be a Nabi first before being promoted as a Rasul.


So when Allah says Seal of Nabis or Prophets . its very clear that when a Nabi or Prophet will not come it means and implies that Rasul or Messenger can not come at all , which is higher grade than a Nabi or Prophet. All Rasuls or Messengers of Allah like Ibrahim AS, Musa, Eesa, Muhammad saws ( peace be upon them all) were sent with strong message to the tyrants or rulers or nations opposing them while Nabis or Prophets like Yacub As, Yusuf ,as Yahya as were born to Create Allah consciousness in people and lead them with the older Scripture or the older law.

So wondering why this thread is being dragged when Quran and its info are clear cut with '' wakhātama l-nabiyīna ''

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.j...er=33&verse=40
Reply

Zafran
06-27-2018, 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by yandex
It doesn't make sense to say "this day Islam is perfected & all favor to prophet Muhammad is completed" when the Quran is mid way of revelation. Unless Ibn Abbas' chronological order is wrong.
the Quran is not in chronological order. Its not meant to be.

Originally Posted by yandex
I have shown Muslims do sometimes supersede the hadith over Quran, read my previous posts.
Nope Quran more established then Hadith because its mass transmitted (tawattur).

Originally Posted by yandex
Sabians are people with knowledge of Allah & Last day & Allah will reward them along Muslims, Christians & Jews. How can they if Allah did not give them a book/prophet?
Not the same as people of the book - people who believe in God and the last day are indeed saved.


Originally Posted by yandex
I'm not preaching Sikhism & Bahai religion here, just suggesting they could be possible Rasools for their respective followers. Using the Quran, I'm just making a case that prophet Muhammad could be the last Nabi but may not be the last Rasool and possibly prophet Muhammad was sent to the Arabs only instead of the whole world. Please read all my previous posts.
No because they contradict each other. Furthermore sikhs and Bahai religion lack urgency. One believes in reincarnation - which means you get unlimited tries at life so no need to convert to the religion. Bahai faith believes in the manifestation of God even though the manifestations can contradict each other.

Islam one message all the prophets said - Do Godly things believe in God and the messenger and you going to be called to account in the after life.

Originally Posted by yandex
As for the miracle part, I only commented because other members are the ones who set miracles as criteria for being Nabi/Rasool not me. That's all.
wouldn't mind hearing these other miracles and why one should believe in them? what for?
Reply

yandex
06-28-2018, 09:26 AM
Originally Posted by Yahya.
If you read the list carefully, its says at the right column ("Notes"): "Except 3, revealed at Arafat on Last Hajj".
Then, regardless of whether it is succeeded by Surat Al-Nasr or not, the meaning stays the same. Because Surat Al-Nasr, which consists of three verses, does not contain any rule (hukm) and there is no change (naskh) in the shariah afterwards; so the religion is completed. Din may very well be used interchangeably with shariah. If the din is completed -and there is only one din before Allah-, it means there is no Rasul after this completion, because the Rasuls of Allah arrive with a new shariah. Just like Bahaullah pretended to do so.
Ok. Not sure the "Notes" was originally in Ibn Abbas' work or added on later. I think the order of revelation even differs between scholars.
Anyway going back to the current compilation as ordered by Uthman, what's the purpose of placing that single verse on completion of Islam at last sermon, between verses addressing pork meat etc!!?

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by talibilm
:sl:

As per hadith there were about 310 Rasuls or Messengers and 124000 Nabis or Prophets , All messengers or Rasuls were Prophets but All Prophets were not Rasul.

Rasul normally meant to higher Calibre among Prophets who had mostly to face AGAINST with their Rulers or The Nation of their times Normally with a new Sharia and commandments.


For example though both Yahya AS and Eesa AS were contemporaries and relatives but still were not of the same calibre. Yahya AS was a Nabi or a Prophet, so he tried to remind , make people Allah conscious but did not come with a new law against anybody in Particular or against a Nation but Isa AS was a Nabi and a Rasul so he came against the banI Israeel with the new law Injeel.

Similarly Musa AS and Shuaib As ie his father in Law were both Prophets but Musa As had an extra degree of becoming The Rasul or Messenger only after his departure from his Father in Law's place at the sacred valley of Thuwa, https://legacy.quran.com/20/12 when he went to pick up a fire to warm themselves Where Allah's call Intercepted him and spoke to him directly and made him a Rasul Assigning him to go to Firaun with a mission ( now he Becomes a Rasul or a Messenger ),before this juncture he was only a Nabi or Prophet who believed Allah and was spreading the Haq of eemaan and righteousness on the Land as a Nabi or Prophet . So when there is seal ( Closure) of Nabi or Prophethood Itself and there is nothing more to talk about the possibility of the coming of a Rasul since a Rasul has to be a Nabi first before being promoted as a Rasul.


So when Allah says Seal of Nabis or Prophets . its very clear that when a Nabi or Prophet will not come it means and implies that Rasul or Messenger can not come at all , which is higher grade than a Nabi or Prophet. All Rasuls or Messengers of Allah like Ibrahim AS, Musa, Eesa, Muhammad saws ( peace be upon them all) were sent with strong message to the tyrants or rulers or nations opposing them while Nabis or Prophets like Yacub As, Yusuf ,as Yahya as were born to Create Allah consciousness in people and lead them with the older Scripture or the older law.

So wondering why this thread is being dragged when Quran and its info are clear cut with '' wakhātama l-nabiyīna ''

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.j...er=33&verse=40
All that you derived here are opinions of scholars using the hadiths to conclude last prophet also means last messenger. The Quran never said so.
I think @Yahya's argument makes more sense that since Quran says Allah has perfected Islam (5:3) that could mean end of message too. Possible but not if Islam is a religion for the Arabs only and not people of the whole world. I have provided 2 examples in my earlier post (quoted below)

Originally Posted by yandex

2. On the argument of the whether prophet Muhammad is for the Arabs or the whole mankind, some members were kind enough to show me verses 3:138, 14:1 & 7 :158 which proclaims prophet Muhammad is for all. In this context, just randomly I found some verses to be sort of Arab centric & doesn't seemed to be addressed to all mankind.

It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives [for sexual relations]. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread [of night]. Then complete the fast until the sunset. And do not have relations with them as long as you are staying for worship in the mosques. These are the limits [set by] Allah, so do not approach them. Thus does Allah make clear His ordinances to the people that they may become righteous. (Quran 2 187)


The above verse on fasting, surely Allah is All knowing that the instruction above cannot be followed by people living in eg. Northern Russia/ South Chile etc as there are no sunrise/sunset for months.

There are they watered with a cup whereof the mixture is of Zanjabil (ginger) (Quran 76: 17)

The above verse describes ginger as a reward in paradise! I mean it may be a exotic spice and a big deal for the desert Bedouins of 7th century but for the people of China & Far East its a common kitchen item.

Thanks
Another example that Islam was not meant for all people refers to the Hajj. Hajj is one of the pillars of Islam and a mandatory obligation right?. Now there are about 1.8 billion Muslims all over the world but every year only about 2 million Muslims are able to fulfill the obligation ordered by Allah. There are millions & millions of Muslims though are physically & financially fit will not able to fulfill this pillar of Islam in their whole life. Why, because the Mecca pilgrimage location has limited space. Only lucky Muslims who strike the Hajj quota can fulfill Allah's order. Don't you think Allah do not know this? If He is All knowing doesn't it mean Islam ws just meant for the Arabs in Mecca & surrounding are as per verse 6:92 & verse 42:7? It must me, as fulfilling one's faith shouldn't depend on lucky draws!!!

Thanks

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Zafran
the Quran is not in chronological order. Its not meant to be.

Nope Quran more established then Hadith because its mass transmitted (tawattur).

Not the same as people of the book - people who believe in God and the last day are indeed saved.

No because they contradict each other. Furthermore sikhs and Bahai religion lack urgency. One believes in reincarnation - which means you get unlimited tries at life so no need to convert to the religion. Bahai faith believes in the manifestation of God even though the manifestations can contradict each other.

Islam one message all the prophets said - Do Godly things believe in God and the messenger and you going to be called to account in the after life.

wouldn't mind hearing these other miracles and why one should believe in them? what for?
Dear Zafran,

Of course Quran is supposed to be word of God & is superior than hadiths according to Muslims. My contention is sometime Muslims instead put hadith above the Quran when it differs in certain matters. I gave some example earlier & will add more for instance;

1. Idols are not haram in the Quran (as long its not for worship) but idols are haram in the hadiths. Muslims/Sharia follow hadith
2. Quran says there is no compulsion in religion. Hadith says kill those leave Islam. Muslims/Shariah follow hadith
3. Mut'ah marriage is allowed in Quran. Mut'ah marriage is haram in hadith. Muslims/Shariah follow hadith

I don't understand how this can happen.

As for regarding the Sabians, lack of urgency (whatever it means, ) of Sikhism/Bahai etc, I will chat with you later.
Thanks
Reply

Zafran
06-28-2018, 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by yandex
Of course Quran is supposed to be word of God & is superior than hadiths according to Muslims. My contention is sometime Muslims instead put hadith above the Quran when it differs in certain matters. I gave some example earlier & will add more for instance;
The Quran is the word of God. All Muslims by Ijma (consensus) and Tawatur (mass transmitted/corroborated) agree it to be. Furthermore mass transmitted sunnah (prophetic actions) like 5 prayers, fasting, certain ethical and legal principles as they have solid epistemic value.

Originally Posted by yandex
1. Idols are not haram in the Quran (as long its not for worship) but idols are haram in the hadiths. Muslims/Sharia follow hadith
The story of Ibrahim (as) and the story of the breaking the Idols, The Koran's main argument in against shirk and Idol worship. Have you actually read the Quran because this is one of the major themes within the Quran which is repeated countless of times, very hard to miss unless you have never read the Quran.......

Originally Posted by yandex
2. Quran says there is no compulsion in religion. Hadith says kill those leave Islam. Muslims/Shariah follow hadith
Not necessarily as the apostasy law is to do with treason as ones religion and allegiance to the ruler was one and the same in pre modern periods. I'm sure in India they do the same with traitors.

Originally Posted by yandex
3. Mut'ah marriage is allowed in Quran. Mut'ah marriage is haram in hadith. Muslims/Shariah follow hadith
Very strange thing to bring up........ have you actually read the Quran because these are not actually serious Issues. Unless your in to Temporary marriages?
Reply

azc
06-29-2018, 04:06 AM
[QUOTE=yandex;2995098]
Originally Posted by azc
@yandex:


chaotic thinking...!




Yes, the messages of Guru Granth Sahib are in poetic form which contains guidance for people. The form of the message itself doesn't determine truth/false.
Why is it an issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messag...u_Granth_Sahib



In this hadith, prophet Muhammad first said 1.There is NO Nabi after me. Then he said, 2. If there is Any, then it would be Umar.
According to this, it is the prophet himself unsure whether there will be next in line prophet or not. If he was sure, he would have stopped after saying line no.1. He doesn't need to add no.2. Btw, it is also interesting that according to other narrations , Allah often send down revelations upon Umar's wish which seems to be a very special privilege.

Thanks
1: Do you know mystical poems of khuwaja Fared ud deen shakarganj rh are also in gurugranth sahib..? As it comprises the poetry of other saints as well, so each of them should be considered as an independent prophet of this book...?

2: So that if any liar ever claims, will be rejected.
Reply

talibilm
06-30-2018, 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by yandex

In this hadith, prophet Muhammad first said 1.There is NO Nabi after me. Then he said, 2. If there is Any, then it would be Umar.
According to this,it is the prophet himself unsure whether there will be next in line prophet or not. If he was sure, he would have stopped after saying line no.1. He doesn't need to add no.2. Btw, it is also interesting that according to other narrations , Allah often send down revelations upon Umar's wish which seems to be a very special privilege.

Thanks
Yandex the more you write the more you prove that you are either Prejudiced ( such people will never learn ) or babble unreasonable arguments , one is above in your quote out of many here , which am less interested in debating these days

First you do not even understand the meaning of 'IF' at all !! I recommend you watch What If.com series in FB which have many videos with what If which means it did not happen now So , AND ''if '' it happens these will be the consequences as a conditional clause. (to reiterate the discussed ' subject's' genuinity,& to affirm its not possible at all against it) like one of What if.com series which says if the nights are not going to end (something like that) then what could happen to the Earth ?? shows its not going to happen and if it happens the Earth could not exist anymore.

And verse 5:3 did not come in the middle of revelations AS YOU HAVE CLAIMED ABOVE but just near his demise or 3 -4 months before Prophets:saws: demise

You say those differences between Prophets and Messengers is just the saying of Scholars. Scholars did not come to a conclusion from the thin air. They are experts in religion as a Doctor in Expert in health. So we can listen to many doctors on the same disease and come to the best conclusion using our own brain and reason who is the most correct. The description in above post #46 is very CLEAR CUT. if You are able to find faults in it bring it up (reasonably not like 'IF' explanation of yours which is absurd and silly) we may discuss it.

For the other Question why did Allah has mentioned as seal or closing of Prophets (not as messengers) has been already profoundly explained in my last post # 46 , It may also be due to the reason because Allah, The All Wise, knows well those who are going to bring up false religions ( or have been assumed by people as a new religion) will not bring anything NEW actively as against a Nation as the great Messengers, Rasuls ( Moses, Isa ,Muhammad :saws: etc) NORMALLY did but will resemble like in a Nabi's Normal Mission (passive) like something additional in Religion which is already existing and preached and giving it a new look as in Bahai . Qadhiyani- Ahmadhiya, Sikhism ( Guru Nanak went to Haj and non muslims are not allowed to haj you know implies Guru was a Muslim then) were taken out from the already existing Islam, so That's why Allah THE All Wise, had told clear cut that even Prophet hood is closed or sealed . So there ought to be no modified Islam at all after Muhammad :saws: .


I also see that you treat Rasuls of Allah as just a mere postbox where the message was delivered that is wrong too which resembles so called Quranists. Today we believe in the Glorious Quran its also because of the Assadique Al Ameen Prophet :saws: and the Eeman is incomplete without accepting the Bringer of this Great Quran. In some hadith NOTE prophet :saws: warning Sahabas not to ask much and if he ( Muhammad :saws: ) had said Yes it would been made a Fard (as in case of Haj i think for every year) Similarly take in case of Mihraj and 50 fard Salah if Prophet :saws: had not bargained it would be left at 50 times IOW The Rasuls of Allah have been vested with special authority (except in Haram & Halal which is Allah Ar Rab's Right only) what was Good and optimum or suitable for his Ummah BUT WITH THE PERMISSION OF ALLAH Al Muizzu. So No wonder Allah has reitterated to follow his Messenger in some verses like this

Noble Quran 3:31 '' Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

Noble Quran 33:36 '' It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.''


Noble Quran 24:63 ''.................... And let those who oppose the Messenger's (Muhammad SAW) commandment (i.e. his Sunnah legal ways, orders, acts of worship, statements, etc.) (among the sects) beware, lest some Fitnah (disbelief, trials, afflictions, earthquakes, killing, overpowered by a tyrant, etc.) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.''



Learn from the knowledgeable here ( you too know something but incomplete makes you go confused) and talk something thats clear cut and unambiguous and not as you have twisted EVEN the clear meaning of 'IF'. I repeat 'If' means its NOT present now, and So ' If ' its going to be so it would be like this scenario , by which its affirmed that if a Prophet was there after him, it ought to be ONLY Umar RA , so that did not happen means there is no prophet after Muhammad :saws: AT ALL and that's it. Islam is Clear Cut in its articles of Faith and Not like Christianity etc whose articles of faith can mean anything 50/50 I and My Father are one.
Reply

Zafran
07-01-2018, 01:25 AM
delete mods
Reply

yandex
07-02-2018, 08:21 AM
@Zafran

The story of Ibrahim (as) and the story of the breaking the Idols, The Koran's main argument in against shirk and Idol worship. Have you actually read the Quran because this is one of the major themes within the Quran which is repeated countless of times, very hard to miss unless you have never read the Quran.......
I already showed earlier that in the Quran idol is only haram for worship, not haram as art/esthetics (verse 34: 13) but the hadith say its haram even to just posses it. This is clear contradiction & the Muslims/scholar choose hadith over the Quran. This was my point.

Not necessarily as the apostasy law is to do with treason as ones religion and allegiance to the ruler was one and the same in pre modern periods. I'm sure in India they do the same with traitors.
Again, death penalty for leaving in Islam is only in hadith not Quran. The only punishment in the Quran is by Allah (in the afterlife). As for the reasoning that leaving ones religion is a treason to justify the killing, are you willing to apply the same logic, thus the pagan Arabs/Quraysh have all the right to kill the prophet then?

Very strange thing to bring up........ have you actually read the Quran because these are not actually serious Issues. Unless your in to Temporary marriages?
Every word in the Quran is supposedly of Allah, so there is no such thing as some words are less important than others.The point is ,I brought this up is to provide more evidence that Muslims/scholars abrogate the Quran by using material from the hadith. It very clear, the Quran allows mu'tah & the hadiths forbid and you accept the later.

There are even more examples, for instance in the Quran homosexuality offense is repent-able & there is no capital punishment where else the hadiths says kill them. The scholars pen a long narration to justify choosing the hadith over the Quran and this becomes Shariah. How come?
@azc

1: Do you know mystical poems of khuwaja Fared ud deen shakarganj rh are also in gurugranth sahib..? As it comprises the poetry of other saints as well, so each of them should be considered as an independent prophet of this book...?
You see , when you talk about the compiled holy book, there are different concepts of it.For Muslims, Quran is 100% word of God, if you look at the Bible its more akin a mix of some "Quran" & some "hadith", for the Granth Sahib I think it consists of revelations, some inspirations & some poems from contemporaries etc. Of course khuwaja Fared ud deen is not their Guru/messenger and they know that. Doesn't all good things belong to God? I quote Sikhism just as an example, not to have Islam vs Sikhism debate. Anyway does Granth Sahib claims ownership of wisdom & calls everyone to convert to it? I don't think so. It has its purpose in North India & especially during the times of their Gurus. (just the way I think of the Quran too in the context of Arabia).

Thanks
Reply

Ümit
07-02-2018, 08:50 AM
Originally Posted by yandex
@Zafran



I already showed earlier that in the Quran idol is only haram for worship, not haram as art/esthetics (verse 34: 13) but the hadith say its haram even to just posses it. This is clear contradiction & the Muslims/scholar choose hadith over the Quran. This was my point.
Your point is not valid.

The word tamatheel in the text is the plural of timthal, which in Arabic is used for every such thing as is made to resemble a natural thing, whether it is a human being, an animal, a tree, a flower, a river, or some inanimate object. Timthal is the name of every artificial thing which may have been made to resemble something made by God. (Lisan al-Arab). Timthal is every such picture which may have been made to resemble the likeness of something else, whether living or dead.” (The commentary, Al-Kashshaf). On this basis the statement of the Quran does not necessarily imply that the images made for the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) were the pictures or images of human beings and animals. They might have been floral designs or natural landscape or different kinds of decorations with which the Prophet Solomon might have decorated his buildings and works. The misunderstanding has been created by some commentators who have stated that the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) had gotten the pictures of the Prophets and the angels made for himself. They took such things from the Israelite traditions and then explained them saying that in the former Shariahs it was not forbidden to make the pictures. But while accepting and citing these traditions without question, these scholars did not keep in mind the fact that the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) was a follower of the Mosaic law and in that law making of the pictures and images of human beings and animals was also forbidden as it is in the Shariah of Muhammad (peace be upon him). And they also did not remember that because of the enmity which a section of the Israelites bore against the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him), they have accused him of crimes like polytheism, idolatry, sorcery and adultery. Therefore. one should not place reliance on the Israelite traditions and accept anything about this great Prophet, which might contradict any Shariah enjoined by God. Everyone knows that all the Prophets who came after the Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) till the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) among the Israelites were the followers of the Torah, and none of them had brought forth a new law, which might have abrogated the law of the Torah. Now the Torah clearly enjoins repeatedly that making of the pictures and images of human beings and animals is absolutely forbidden.
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in the heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.” (Exod. 20: 4) “Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, nor rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it.” (Levit. 26: 1).
“Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female. The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air. The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth.” (Deut. 4: 16-18).
“Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place.” (Deut. 27: 15).
In the face of these clear and express injunctions how can it be accepted that the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) might have employed the jinns to make pictures and images of the Prophets and the angels for him? And how can this thing be admitted on the authority of the statements of the Jews who accuse the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) of idolatry due to his love for polytheistic wives?
Reply

talibilm
07-03-2018, 08:44 AM
Originally Posted by umie
Your point is not valid.

The word tamatheel in the text is the plural of timthal, which in Arabic is used for every such thing as is made to resemble a natural thing, whether it is a human being, an animal, a tree, a flower, a river, or some inanimate object. Timthal is the name of every artificial thing which may have been made to resemble something made by God. (Lisan al-Arab). Timthal is every such picture which may have been made to resemble the likeness of something else, whether living or dead.” (The commentary, Al-Kashshaf). On this basis the statement of the Quran does not necessarily imply that the images made for the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) were the pictures or images of human beings and animals. They might have been floral designs or natural landscape or different kinds of decorations with which the Prophet Solomon might have decorated his buildings and works. The misunderstanding has been created by some commentators who have stated that the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) had gotten the pictures of the Prophets and the angels made for himself. They took such things from the Israelite traditions and then explained them saying that in the former Shariahs it was not forbidden to make the pictures. But while accepting and citing these traditions without question, these scholars did not keep in mind the fact that the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) was a follower of the Mosaic law and in that law making of the pictures and images of human beings and animals was also forbidden as it is in the Shariah of Muhammad (peace be upon him). And they also did not remember that because of the enmity which a section of the Israelites bore against the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him), they have accused him of crimes like polytheism, idolatry, sorcery and adultery. Therefore. one should not place reliance on the Israelite traditions and accept anything about this great Prophet, which might contradict any Shariah enjoined by God. Everyone knows that all the Prophets who came after the Prophet Moses (peace be upon him) till the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) among the Israelites were the followers of the Torah, and none of them had brought forth a new law, which might have abrogated the law of the Torah. Now the Torah clearly enjoins repeatedly that making of the pictures and images of human beings and animals is absolutely forbidden.


“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in the heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.” (Exod. 20: 4) “Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, nor rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it.” (Levit. 26: 1).
“Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female. The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air. The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth.” (Deut. 4: 16-18).
“Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place.” (Deut. 27: 15).
In the face of these clear and express injunctions how can it be accepted that the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) might have employed the jinns to make pictures and images of the Prophets and the angels for him? And how can this thing be admitted on the authority of the statements of the Jews who accuse the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) of idolatry due to his love for polytheistic wives?
:sl:

Excellent answer jazakallah khair. Even some of the Scholars mistook this word i suppose '' tamatheel '' Can You give more proofs or ref on this words inshallah ,that could strengthen this stance
Reply

Ümit
07-03-2018, 09:14 AM
Originally Posted by talibilm
:sl:

Excellent answer jazakallah khair. Even some of the Scholars mistook this word i suppose '' tamatheel '' Can You give more proofs or ref on this words inshallah ,that could strengthen this stance
These are not my own words. I do not understand Arabic, but a quick search on the internet reveals the true meanings of the verse.

here's the source I got this from:
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafhe...verse=12&to=13

Reply

Abz2000
07-03-2018, 11:24 AM
Originally Posted by yandex
@Zafran



I already showed earlier that in the Quran idol is only haram for worship, not haram as art/esthetics (verse 34: 13) but the hadith say its haram even to just posses it. This is clear contradiction & the Muslims/scholar choose hadith over the Quran. This was my point.



Again, death penalty for leaving in Islam is only in hadith not Quran. The only punishment in the Quran is by Allah (in the afterlife). As for the reasoning that leaving ones religion is a treason to justify the killing, are you willing to apply the same logic, thus the pagan Arabs/Quraysh have all the right to kill the prophet then?



Every word in the Quran is supposedly of Allah, so there is no such thing as some words are less important than others.The point is ,I brought this up is to provide more evidence that Muslims/scholars abrogate the Quran by using material from the hadith. It very clear, the Quran allows mu'tah & the hadiths forbid and you accept the later.

There are even more examples, for instance in the Quran homosexuality offense is repent-able & there is no capital punishment where else the hadiths says kill them. The scholars pen a long narration to justify choosing the hadith over the Quran and this becomes Shariah. How come?
@azc





You see , when you talk about the compiled holy book, there are different concepts of it.For Muslims, Quran is 100% word of God, if you look at the Bible its more akin a mix of some "Quran" & some "hadith", for the Granth Sahib I think it consists of revelations, some inspirations & some poems from contemporaries etc. Of course khuwaja Fared ud deen is not their Guru/messenger and they know that. Doesn't all good things belong to God? I quote Sikhism just as an example, not to have Islam vs Sikhism debate. Anyway does Granth Sahib claims ownership of wisdom & calls everyone to convert to it? I don't think so. It has its purpose in North India & especially during the times of their Gurus. (just the way I think of the Quran too in the context of Arabia).

Thanks



I will comment on what i am able to for now although there is so much information here that requires correction - and edit and add a bit later inshaAllah :swt:

The book revealed to Musa strictly forbids certain things - yet the Prophets sulaiman and jesus interpreted much and put it in perspective by taking into account word and spirit based on wisdom and obedience to Allah.

What has come to us of the Bible (although it has been interpolated much by people of varying intentions) states that Prophet Sulaiman :as: had decorative images built, there are many historical accounts of these sphynxes and other decorations scattered in writings of locals and travellers.
The Quran confirms that Prophet Sulaiman :as: had images and huge basins etc built by jinns and divers, and that Prophet Sulaiman :as: had been granted wisdom by Allah - and in some cases the correct understanding of matters of judgement above his father David :as: although both were granted wisdom.


فَفَهَّمْنَاهَا سُلَيْمَانَ وَكُلًّا آتَيْنَا حُكْمًا وَعِلْمًا وَسَخَّرْنَا مَعَ دَاوُودَ الْجِبَالَ يُسَبِّحْنَ وَالطَّيْرَ وَكُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ (21:79)

for, [though] We made Solomon understand the case [more profoundly] yet We vouchsafed unto both of them sound judgment and knowledge [of right and wrong]. [71] And We caused [72] the mountains to join David in extolling Our limitless glory, and likewise the birds: [73] for We are able to do [all things]. - 21:79 (Asad) -

So there is no wisdom in attempting to create a "fans of the father" and "fans of the son" schism by using incomplete testimony - since Allah the Perfect and Most Wise who knows what is best sent both David and Sulaiman, granted wisdom to both, and made one excel over the other (this can be seen in tree and horse breeding), and both father and son sometimes made mistakes and errors in judgement too since they are after all human.
These strict and non-strict divine commands, wise judgemental interpretations by Prophets sent by Allah, and mistakes by the same Prophets, also carry a statement - in that people must always be busy seeking the truth according to the given situation based on all the lawful and truthful information they have - and more if they can lawfully get it - and should be making wise decisions and appointing wise leaders to make collective decisions for them.
Those who use their good judgement and wisdom will also come to the realization that obedience to Allah and seeking of His goodwill is the only possible way of achieving stable success.
Those who go too far in their own judgement to the extent that they reject and oppose Allah -will fall into the party of Iblees and will be rejected by Allah :swt: Himself and will fail when it comes to the weighing with just judgement with the scales on the day of judgement.

It is flawed to claim that a person who
chooses a certain option based on all the knowledge he/she has with wisdom, and with obedience to Allah and the seeking of His face as his/her primary plumbline
- is taking the judgement of the Quran over the judgement of the hadith and is thereby rejecting the Prophet :saws: , or is taking the judgement of the ahadith over the judgement of the Quran and thereby rejecting Allah :swt: , and the same goes with all information.

This is the reason why people who choose wise leaders who judge from all pools of vast truthful knowledge are the most successful.
And people and leaders who measure whether their decision will fit with Allah's guidance and good pleasure (halaal, lawful, acceptable, tolerable) - a concept that derives from TAQWA - will usually end up making the best and most stable decisions.

Those who claim that the Quran/hadeeth/bible/pythagoras/darwin/newton/enid blyton shouldn't be accepted because it's not "our book" are actually like the blind men who went to the zoo to find out how an elephant possibly looks - and then came back and then killed each other until all of them were dead - because one shouted angrily that it was flat like a banana leaf, another that it was long and thick like a python, another that it was big and stout like a tree trunk - and yet another that it was brittle and sharp like a spear. Whereas if they had gotten together to speak truthfully and to sincerely understand it having left arrogance behind -they would inevitably have ended up unanimously describing an elephant.

We (interviewees) were made to put mr/mrs potato head together at our group assessment for Orange in my college days and they (assessors) took it apart and put it under the table cloth and allowed us each to use only one hand, it came out a bit wonky - but they were actually assessing our team working ability and skills. (I got the job and ended up thieving with credit cards and then ran away after they pressed charges, they were still kind enough to drop the charges though - much respect).

Anyways, the Mother of the Book by which oceans of ink would be exhausted is what contains all information and the Quran is a tiny -though very important and essential- part of it, this is why we have to learn 2+2=4 from mum and dad or whoever they hire to teach us it, and this is why we observe a cat if we want to learn how it wipes it's ar$e.


-----







Edit:



Here is the Quranic account of the command by Allah to the Prophet :saws: to strengthen his heart from slanders by remembering the cases - including strengths and weaknesses, successes and failings, and above all -the turning to Allah - of other Prophets before him:


17. Have patience at what they say, and remember our servant David, the man of strength: for he ever turned (to Allah..
18. It was We that made the hills declare, in unison with him, Our Praises, at eventide and at break of day,
19. And the birds gathered (in assemblies): all with him did turn (to Allah..
20. We strengthened his kingdom, and gave him wisdom and sound judgment in speech and decision.

21. Has the Story of the Disputants reached thee? Behold, they climbed over the wall of the private chamber;
22. When they entered the presence of David, and he was terrified of them, they said: “Fear not: we are two disputants, one of whom has wronged the other: Decide now between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, but guide us to the even Path..
23. “This man is my brother: He has nine and ninety ewes, and I have (but) one: Yet he says, ‘commit her to my care,’ and is (moreover) harsh to me in speech.”
24. (David) said: “He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes: truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other: Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?”…and David gathered that We had tried him: he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance).

25. So We forgave him this (lapse): he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful place of (Final) Return.
26. O David! We did indeed make thee a vicegerent on earth: so judge thou between men in truth (and justice): Nor follow thou the lusts (of thy heart), for they will mislead thee from the Path of Allah. for those who wander astray from the Path of Allah, is a Penalty Grievous, for that they forget the Day of Account.

27. Not without purpose did We create heaven and earth and all between! that were the thought of Unbelievers! but woe to the Unbelievers because of the Fire (of Hell)!
28. Shall We treat those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, the same as those who do mischief on earth? Shall We treat those who guard against evil, the same as those who turn aside from the right?
29. (Here is) a Book which We have sent down unto thee, full of blessings, that they may mediate on its Signs, and that men of understanding may receive admonition.


30. To David We gave Solomon (for a son),- How excellent in Our service! Ever did he turn (to Us)!
31. Behold, there were brought before him, at eventide coursers of the highest breeding, and swift of foot;
32. And he said, “Truly do I love the love of good, with a view to the glory of my Lord,”- until (the sun) was hidden in the veil (of night):
33. “Bring them back to me.” then began he to pass his hand over (their) legs and their necks.

34. And We did try Solomon: We placed on his throne a body (without life); but he did turn (to Us in true devotion):

35. He said, “O my Lord! Forgive me, and grant me a kingdom which, (it may be), suits not another after me: for Thou art the Grantor of Bounties (without measure).
36. Then We subjected the wind to his power, to flow gently to his order, Whithersoever he willed,-
37. As also the evil ones, (including) every kind of builder and diver,-
38. As also others bound together in fetters.
39. “Such are Our Bounties: whether thou bestow them (on others) or withhold them, no account will be asked.”

40. And he enjoyed, indeed, a Near Approach to Us, and a beautiful Place of (Final) Return.

From Quran, Chapter 38.


If we look at the case of idols and like images we find amongst many other examples:

وَلِسُلَيْمَانَ الرِّيحَ غُدُوُّهَا شَهْرٌ وَرَوَاحُهَا شَهْرٌ وَأَسَلْنَا لَهُ عَيْنَ الْقِطْرِ وَمِنَ الْجِنِّ مَن يَعْمَلُ بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِ وَمَن يَزِغْ مِنْهُمْ عَنْ أَمْرِنَا نُذِقْهُ مِنْ عَذَابِ السَّعِيرِ

And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient): Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

يَعْمَلُونَ لَهُ مَا يَشَاءُ مِن مَّحَارِيبَ وَتَمَاثِيلَ وَجِفَانٍ كَالْجَوَابِ وَقُدُورٍ رَّاسِيَاتٍ اعْمَلُوا آلَ دَاوُودَ شُكْرًا وَقَلِيلٌ مِّنْ عِبَادِيَ الشَّكُورُ

They worked for him as he desired, (making) arches, images, basins as large as reservoirs, and (cooking) cauldrons fixed (in their places): "Work ye, sons of David, with thanks! but few of My servants are grateful!"

Quran 34:12-13





The relaxing of the law given to Musa by Allah :swt: through a Prophet subject to Allah proclaiming: "think not that i am come to void the law but to fulfill it"....
.
3:48 And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel.
3:49 And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): “I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah’s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe.”

3:50 (I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your
Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.





----

43:63 When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: “Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.”

--------



وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ لِأَبِيهِ آزَرَ أَتَتَّخِذُ أَصْنَامًا آلِهَةً إِنِّي أَرَاكَ وَقَوْمَكَ فِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ

And when Abraham said to his father Azar: "Do you take images as objects of worship? I see you and your people in clear perversion."

وَكَذَٰلِكَ نُرِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ مَلَكُوتَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَلِيَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُوقِنِينَ

Thus did We show Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth that he might be of those possessing certainty:

فَلَمَّا جَنَّ عَلَيْهِ اللَّيْلُ رَأَىٰ كَوْكَبًا قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي فَلَمَّا أَفَلَ قَالَ لَا أُحِبُّ الْآفِلِينَ

When the night covered him over, He saw a planet/star: He said: "This is my Lord." But when it set, He said: "I love not those that set."

فَلَمَّا رَأَى الْقَمَرَ بَازِغًا قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي فَلَمَّا أَفَلَ قَالَ لَئِن لَّمْ يَهْدِنِي رَبِّي لَأَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْقَوْمِ الضَّالِّينَ


When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said: "This is my Lord." But when the moon set, He said: "unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray."

فَلَمَّا رَأَى الشَّمْسَ بَازِغَةً قَالَ هَٰذَا رَبِّي هَٰذَا أَكْبَرُ فَلَمَّا أَفَلَتْ قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِّمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ

When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said: "This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all)." But when the sun set, he said: "O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.


إِنِّي وَجَّهْتُ وَجْهِيَ لِلَّذِي فَطَرَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ حَنِيفًا وَمَا أَنَا مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ

Indeed I have faced my face towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, as one by logical nature upright, and I am not of those who join others as partners with Allah.


Quran 6:74-79



Narrated Ar-Rubi' bint Mu'awadh:
"The Prophet (ﷺ) sent a messenger to the village of the Ansar in the morning of the day of 'Ashura' (10th of Muharram) to announce: 'Whoever has eaten something should not eat but complete the fast, and whoever is observing the fast should complete it.' "She further said, "Since then we used to fast on that day regularly and also make our boys fast. We used to make toys of wool for the boys and if anyone of them cried (out of hunger for) food, he was given those toys till it was the time of the breaking of the fast."

حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، حَدَّثَنَا بِشْرُ بْنُ الْمُفَضَّلِ، حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدُ بْنُ ذَكْوَانَ، عَنِ الرُّبَيِّعِ بِنْتِ مُعَوِّذٍ، قَالَتْ أَرْسَلَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم غَدَاةَ عَاشُورَاءَ إِلَى قُرَى الأَنْصَارِ ‏ "‏ مَنْ أَصْبَحَ مُفْطِرًا فَلْيُتِمَّ بَقِيَّةَ يَوْمِهِ، وَمَنْ أَصْبَحَ صَائِمًا فَلْيَصُمْ ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَتْ فَكُنَّا نَصُومُهُ بَعْدُ، وَنُصَوِّمُ صِبْيَانَنَا، وَنَجْعَلُ لَهُمُ اللُّعْبَةَ مِنَ الْعِهْنِ، فَإِذَا بَكَى أَحَدُهُمْ عَلَى الطَّعَامِ أَعْطَيْنَاهُ ذَاكَ، حَتَّى يَكُونَ عِنْدَ الإِفْطَارِ‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 1960
In-book reference : Book 30, Hadith 67
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 3, Book 31, Hadith 181

(deprecated numbering scheme)


I'm certain those toys weren't long legged barbie dolls which little boys stare at and sometimes uncover to look at...... - but am finding it difficult to imagine what they could most likely have been other than basic toy camels/sheep/dolls.

Anyone who's struggled with the concept of children's cartoons would have an idea of what i'm talking about.
But again, that wouldn't be the same as drawing nude images of strange women or men would it?
Then a line would have to be drawn (excuse the unintended irony) or each case looked into separately - a lot of work for judges - but easy only if the people's hearts have been tuned to obedience of Allah :swt: correctly.



What about decorative statues in villages and cities - there's something a bit like it mentioned here:

123. The ‘Ad (people) rejected the apostles.
124. Behold, their brother Hud said to them: “Will ye not fear ((Allah))?
125. “I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust:
126. “So fear Allah and obey me.
127. “No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.
128. “Do ye build a landmark on every high place to amuse yourselves?
129. “And do ye get for yourselves fine buildings in the hope of living therein (for ever)?
130. “And when ye exert your strong hand, do ye do it like men of absolute power?
131. “Now fear Allah, and obey me.
132. “Yea, fear Him Who has bestowed on you freely all that ye know.
133. “Freely has He bestowed on you cattle and sons,-
134. “And Gardens and Springs.
135. “Truly I fear for you the Penalty of a Great Day.”
136. They said: “It is the same to us whether thou admonish us or be not among (our) admonishers!
137. “This is no other than a customary device of the ancients,
138. “And we are not the ones to receive Pains and Penalties!”
139. So they rejected him, and We destroyed them. Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.
140. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.

From Quran, Chapter 126


The only idea i can get from it is that if Sulaiman was trapping jinns with the material he had confiscated, he was only using it for Allah's work in obedience to Him

Wa maa kafara Sulaimaan wa laa kinna ash-Shayatueena kafaroo.

And Sulaimaan did not ungratefully reject Allah, but the satans ungratefully rejected Allah.

And if he was making sphynxes as decor for Allah's house - he was only doing it with the intention of pleasing Allah :swt: , and this doesn't make the action a ruling - since he may possibly have fallen short in judgement as anybody is prone to do.
It was ultimately a test for him and for the people, just as every ruling, abrogation, success, and failure is -on the path to wisdom until the day of judgement.



When Prophet Muhammad :saws: cut down the trees of Banu Nadeer despite the general condemnation of such an act in the Quran - he was doing it in obedience to Allah despite the written word - and then after much talking by the people - the confirmation by Allah proved his judgement to be correct (ch 59).



What remains is for people to take in information and process it well whilst seeking to do what is best in Allah's sight whilst hoping for His mercy and fearing His wrath - simply playing with words will not guard against Allah's wrath if an action displeases Him due to being unjust - nor will foolishly adhering to a written ruling without wisdom despite the legality of an act in Allah's sight.


The Torah stoning rulings and the birth of Jesus should have proven that.


The statements and rulings of the Prophet :saws: some of which add to Quranic rulings - and some of which appear to contradict but actually do not contradict Allah - are made as a mercy and not ultimately for confusion - and that is not the end of wisdom.

The multiple "U-turns" and added rulings found in the revealed books and actions of the Prophets are also a mercy and a consolation to leaders who would otherwise be reluctant to change their rulings out of fear of being accused of folly.
And a means of making us realize that each circumstance and level of knowledge is different - and that we should always be prepared to obey Allah inspite of our possible past misunderstandings.


Your Lord said to the angels: “Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape. So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.” (Hicr 15:28-29)

Your Lord said to the angels: “Surely I am going to create a mortal from dust. So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down making obeisance to him.”(Sad 38:71-72)

(We said) To the angels: “Make obeisance to Adam”, All of them but Iblis did obeisance. He refused, he was proud, and he became one of the unbelievers.(Bakara 2:34)

And certainly We created you, then We gave you your shape, and then We said to the angels: “Make obeisance to Adam”. All except Iblis did obeisance; he was not of those who did obeisance. (Araf 7:11)

We had told the angels: “Prostrate to Adam” All of them except Iblis did prostrate. He said: “Shall I prostrate to him whom You have created of dust?” (Isra 17:61)

The Answer of Iblis

He said: “What hindered you so that you did not make obeisance when I commanded you?” He answered thus: “You have created me of fire, while You created him of dust. I am better than he.” (Araf 7:12)

Allah said: “O Iblis! What hindered you from being with those who make obeisance?
He said: “I am not such that I could make obeisance to a mortal whom You have created of black mud. (Hicr 15:32-33)

Allah said: “O Iblis! What prevented you from doing obeisance to him whom I have created with My power? Are you proud, or are you of the exalted ones?”
Iblis said: “I am better than he; You have created me of fire, while You created him of dust.
Allah said: “Then get out of there; for sure you are one of those who have been driven away. And surely My curse is on you to the day of judgment/religion.”(Sad 38:75-78)


A "U-turn"?

Or a question of obedience to Allah :swt: and acceptance of His wisdom above our own?
Reply

Zafran
07-03-2018, 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by yandex
I already showed earlier that in the Quran idol is only haram for worship, not haram as art/esthetics (verse 34: 13) but the hadith say its haram even to just posses it. This is clear contradiction & the Muslims/scholar choose hadith over the Quran. This was my point.
An Idol is what one worships or uses to worship - an aesthetic art form is not an Idol. Idol worship is categorically wrong and shirk in Islam. We know this through the Quran and mass transmitted reports (Tawattur).


Originally Posted by yandex
Again, death penalty for leaving in Islam is only in hadith not Quran. The only punishment in the Quran is by Allah (in the afterlife). As for the reasoning that leaving ones religion is a treason to justify the killing, are you willing to apply the same logic, thus the pagan Arabs/Quraysh have all the right to kill the prophet then?
Nope death penalty is the same as treason in a pre modern context. The prophet didn't have any political power when the pagans persecuted his followers, starved them, killed them and tried to kill the prophet. They also made them leave there home. It was only when the prophet went to Medina that the prophet pbuh fought back from extinction - After the conquest of mecca the prophet forgive his persecutors and they accepted Islam and gave Bayah to the prophet. From there onwards they have an obligation to obey the prophet - Just like you do to your country.

Originally Posted by yandex
Every word in the Quran is supposedly of Allah, so there is no such thing as some words are less important than others.The point is ,I brought this up is to provide more evidence that Muslims/scholars abrogate the Quran by using material from the hadith. It very clear, the Quran allows mu'tah & the hadiths forbid and you accept the later.
Nope the Quran does not get abrogated by hadiths but by other Quranic ayats. Ramadan, drinking alcohol are other examples. Muta was one of the marriages that the pre pagan Arabs used to with other marriages - many of these were abrogated later.

You also seem to think that the Quran and hadiths are separate things - the Quran orders Muslims to follow the prophet and the hadith science is the method scholars use to figure what the prophet said.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by yandex
There are even more examples, for instance in the Quran homosexuality offense is repent-able & there is no capital punishment where else the hadiths says kill them. The scholars pen a long narration to justify choosing the hadith over the Quran and this becomes Shariah. How come?
where does the Quran talk about homosexuality expect the story of Lot? Here is a task for you tell me what muta is using the Quran only? Lets see how far you get without any historical context like hadith, sira, arabic grammer, Usul ul fiqh, logic, the people that witnessed revelation like sahaba (companions) and there students etc? Just the Quran.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by yandex
Doesn't all good things belong to God? I quote Sikhism just as an example, not to have Islam vs Sikhism debate. Anyway does Granth Sahib claims ownership of wisdom & calls everyone to convert to it? I don't think so. It has its purpose in North India & especially during the times of their Gurus. (just the way I think of the Quran too in the context of Arabia)
if Sikhism doesn't want anyone to convert to it then why should one even talk about it and take it seriously? if it doesn't have the existential answers to life then why should one bother with it? as I said before it lacks urgency. Unlike Christianity and Islam which are universal religions make urgent claims.

Do all Good things belong? well contradictory things dont.
Reply

talibilm
07-03-2018, 11:38 PM
Originally Posted by umie
These are not my own words. I do not understand Arabic, but a quick search on the internet reveals the true meanings of the verse.

here's the source I got this from:
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafhe...verse=12&to=13



Jazakallah Ukthi, I have gone through this tafsir many many times but do not know how i missed the PROFOUND explanation of this word 'tamatheel'. Anyhow later better than never. Jazakallah khair Ukthi.
Reply

Ümit
07-04-2018, 08:19 AM
Originally Posted by talibilm
Jazakallah Ukthi, I have gone through this tafsir many many times but do not know how i missed the PROFOUND explanation of this word 'tamatheel'. Anyhow later better than never. Jazakallah khair Ukthi.
Anytime brother...glad I could help...that is what we are here for.:statisfie
Reply

yandex
07-04-2018, 08:49 AM
@umie

The word tamatheel in the text is the plural of timthal, which in Arabic is used for every such thing as is made to resemble a natural thing, whether it is a human being, an animal, a tree, a flower, a river, or some inanimate object. .. Timthal is every such picture which may have been made to resemble the likeness of something else, whether living or dead.” (The commentary, Al-Kashshaf). On this basis the statement of the Quran does not necessarily imply that the images made for the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) were the pictures or images of human beings and animals. They might have been floral designs or natural landscape or different kinds of decorations with which the Prophet Solomon might have decorated his buildings and works.....In the face of these clear and express injunctions how can it be accepted that the Prophet Solomon (peace be upon him) might have employed the jinns to make pictures and images of the Prophets and the angels for him? ....
The word used in most of the translations is statue. In British English it is normally used for a replica of a person/being & animal. That's the norm.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/statue

Ok, so the Muslim translators choose the English word statue even though in Arabic, the word tamatheel could also mean replica of other things eg. plant, flower, tree etc. Perhaps that's what they thought it meant. Otherwise, if you think the translators were wrong, then I have nothing to say about it.

As for quoting the Bible to support the Quran, I find it strange because one either uses his own religious source or a universally accepted document like a historic text etc and not a book which you believe is corrupt. Never mind.

Btw, I want to know why a bust/picture of a person or animal is haram/shirk but not that of a plant/tree/flower?

@Abz2000

The statements and rulings of the Prophet :saws: some of which add to Quranic rulings - and some of which appear to contradict but actually do not contradict Allah - are made as a mercy and not ultimately for confusion - and that is not the end of wisdom.

The multiple "U-turns" and added rulings found in the revealed books and actions of the Prophets are also as a mercy and a consolation to leaders who would be otherwise reluctant to change their rulings out of fear of being accused of folly.
So, all contradictions/U turns are simply just appearing to be one and even if there is really any, it is merely a mercy from God of your religion? Thanks, now anyone pick this up & make such excuse to cover all problems in their respective religion or even cult.

Btw, what's Iblis story got to do with U-turns? Also, if Iblis got kicked out of heaven after disobeying Allah, where did he go in exile? Please elaborate.
@Zafran

Nope death penalty is the same as treason in a pre modern context. ..
You didn't get my point. I'm saying that if apostacy is a treason to your co-religionist punishable by death, then pagan Arabs too have every right to execute the prophet for leaving his Quraysh religion & be a threat to their community.

Muta was one of the marriages that the pre pagan Arabs used to with other marriages - many of these were abrogated later.
There is no Quranic verse that abrogates the Mut'ah marriage, only hadiths, that's my point.

where does the Quran talk about homosexuality expect the story of Lot? Here is a task for you tell me what muta is using the Quran only? Lets see how far you get without any historical context like hadith, sira, arabic grammer, Usul ul fiqh, logic, the people that witnessed revelation like sahaba (companions) and there students etc? Just the Quran.
No where in the Quran it says death to homosexuals as the hadiths do. Thats enough.

if Sikhism doesn't want anyone to convert to it then why should one even talk about it and take it seriously? if it doesn't have the existential answers to life then why should one bother with it? as I said before it lacks urgency. Unlike Christianity and Islam which are universal religions make urgent claims.
Do all Good things belong? well contradictory things dont.
Not every religion is into aggresive proselytising and number game and that doesn't have any correlation with a belief system being closer to the truth etc. Like the Quran says, to me my religion and to you, yours etc. I showed a few examples in the earlier posts why I think the Quran was more for the Arabs in those times and not for all mankind at all times. As for urgency, what you mean by that? Can't wait to enter the Jannah or something? Maybe except for the 7th century Beduins, I don't think lying on the sofa eating chicken & drinking ginger ale is what humans are looking forward in afterlife (if any). That description is more apt for a normal Sunday afternoon here on earth now

Thanks.
Reply

Ümit
07-04-2018, 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by yandex
@umie
The word used in most of the translations is statue. In British English it is normally used for a replica of a person/being & animal. That's the norm.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/statue

Ok, so the Muslim translators choose the English word statue even though in Arabic, the word tamatheel could also mean replica of other things eg. plant, flower, tree etc. Perhaps that's what they thought it meant. Otherwise, if you think the translators were wrong, then I have nothing to say about it.

As for quoting the Bible to support the Quran, I find it strange because one either uses his own religious source or a universally accepted document like a historic text etc and not a book which you believe is corrupt. Never mind.

Btw, I want to know why a bust/picture of a person or animal is haram/shirk but not that of a plant/tree/flower?
The shortcomings of the languages or the translators does not change the validity of the Quraan.

the word Tamatheel is most of the time used as "statue" or "bust" but if you look a little bit detailed, then you find a more general meaning for it like anything that resembles a natural thing.
I do not know why translators would have chosen the word "statue"...it may be because the lack of a better word. languages usually cannot be translated into each other 1 on 1 without losing any information.

"statues" just does not cover the word "tamatheel" entirely...and that is where the problems start. Exactly that is the main reason that the Quran may not be translated in a different language...of course you can translate it...but then the translated version is just a book...and it certainly does not have the same status as the Quraan anymore.

About quotations of the Bible and Thora. I wanted to point out that Jews and Christians also have this rule in their Holy Book. I could use sources out of the Quraan, but since the Jews and Christians do not acknowle the Quraan, it has no use.
Besides, I have to use an older source than the Quraan to prove my point.
I did not take the time to search out a universally accepted historical text but I have no doubt that the result is the same.
Besides, Christianity, Judaism and Islam are basically the same religion...the big difference is that Christians and Jews do not accept Muhammad sas as the last prophet.
The Bible is as corrupt as it can get, but the Thorah is still pretty pure...it just got totally destroyed at one point in time and then recovered as good as possible from memory of one person.

nevertheless, the fact that it is stated multiple times in the Thorah that statue making is prohibited, is enough proof that Jews were aware of that rule long before Solomon as was born.

Some say that rules can change over the years and things that were allowed in the past are haram now or vice versa. the example they give is Alcohol which was halal once, and later on became haraam.
they then try to explain that statue making might have been halaal during Solomons time but became haraam later on.

However, this does not make sense to me. because, why would something be haraam during Moses's as time on Earth...then it becomes halaal during Solomon's as periode and then becomes haraam once more?
Reply

azc
07-04-2018, 01:16 PM
@yandex :

You are a hadith rejecter....?

Then You are a Quran rejecter as well....
Reply

Zafran
07-05-2018, 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by yandex
You didn't get my point. I'm saying that if apostacy is a treason to your co-religionist punishable by death, then pagan Arabs too have every right to execute the prophet for leaving his Quraysh religion & be a threat to their community.
Who gave them the right to persecute people especially when they desecrated the house of Abraham pbuh and Ishmael who were monotheist in first place. The prophet didnt Go against the Queresh he was telling them to practice the religion that God had told them to follow. The prophet was also a quraysh himself.. Furthermore as the Prophet was part of the Quraysh he was under the protection of Abu Talibs and they couldnt kill him anyway - so they were going against there own tribal rules.


Originally Posted by yandex
There is no Quranic verse that abrogates the Mut'ah marriage, only hadiths, that's my point.
what is Muta in the Quran? How do you Know what it is from the Quran?

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by yandex
No where in the Quran it says death to homosexuals as the hadiths do. Thats enough.
Your the one that brought up Homosexuality so where does it talk about homosexuality in the Quran and what is the point of bringing it up?

Originally Posted by yandex
Not every religion is into aggresive proselytising and number game and that doesn't have any correlation with a belief system being closer to the truth etc
Those religions have little to offer to outsiders - they are either tribal unlike universal religions like Islam and Christianity, which are everywhere and are growing at a faster rate then other religions for an obvious reasons (they are universal).


Originally Posted by yandex
Like the Quran says, to me my religion and to you, yours etc. I showed a few examples in the earlier posts why I think the Quran was more for the Arabs in those times and not for all mankind at all times.
Verse 3:19
Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah, then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account

There are many verses like this but looking at the world and it has the largest population of Muslims in Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Persia, Turkey and Africa it safe to say it is a universal religion. Its also the fastest growing religion on the planet. So its for all places and times.

- - - Updated - - -


Originally Posted by yandex
As for urgency, what you mean by that? Can't wait to enter the Jannah or something? Maybe except for the 7th century Beduins, I don't think lying on the sofa eating chicken & drinking ginger ale is what humans are looking forward in afterlife (if any). That description is more apt for a normal Sunday afternoon here on earth now
LOL there is no urgent reason to accept Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism or any other the Indian religions because they believe in reincarnation - which means you get unlimited tries at life after you die, There is no Urgency to accept these religions on this basis. If I'm coming back here anyway according to them regardless of what I follow.

Looking at earth with its finite resources it does not seem to be place where people can keep coming back to unlimited times as well.

Unlike lets say Islam and Christianity which threaten you with Judgment after death and only one shot at life. So you need to take life seriously and make a decision urgently on them.

There are atheist who believe that nothing exists after life - so its pointless even look into atheist philosophies on the perennial question as they believe that life is just a short pessimistic,nihilistic and ultimately meaningless stay on earth. No point of life what so ever.

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Originally Posted by azc
@yandex :

You are a hadith rejecter....?

Then You are a Quran rejecter as well....
He is not a Muslim.............
Reply

yandex
07-06-2018, 04:33 AM
@ umie

The shortcomings of the languages or the translators does not change the validity of the Quraan…..it may be because the lack of a better word. languages usually cannot be translated into each other 1 on 1 without losing any information…..Exactly that is the main reason that the Quran may not be translated in a different language...of course you can translate it...but then the translated version is just a book...and it certainly does not have the same status as the Quraan anymore.
That’s why in my much earlier (post #23), I said it makes sense for God for millennia to continuously send message in different communities in their respective language precisely to ensure they understand it accurately (Quran 14 4). It doesn’t makes sense all this to suddenly stop at Arabia in 7th century and the entire world now have to learn Arabic !! Your response was that translations are sufficient for the rest (post#35), but here even the Muslims scholars according to you, can get it fundamentally wrong!! On the other hand, I also showed that even the Arabs could not understand the Quran except in their own dialect & Allah obliged later in 7 ahrufs.
https://sunnah.com/muslim/6/334

On the side note, the hadith of the 7 dialects is also strange and puts Allah in a precarious spot. How come the prophet has to remind Allah that his people only understand their own dialect and sending down only one of them is not enough? Isn’t Allah the All- Knowing and should have done it in the first place?

The Bible is as corrupt as it can get, but the Torah is still pretty pure...it just got totally destroyed at one point in time and then recovered as good as possible from memory of one person.
That’s not true. The Quran claims the Torah is corrupted too (Quran 4 46), so it’s very bizarre to use the corrupted Torah to support the Quran.

@ azc

You are a hadith rejecter....?
Then You are a Quran rejecter as well....
There are many hadiths, even sahih ones that puts the prophet and Allah in a very precarious spot. I can show it to you. It is my opinion that Muslims can do better without some of it. That’s all.

@ Zafran

Who gave them the right to persecute people especially when they desecrated the house of Abraham pbuh and Ishmael who were monotheist in first place. The prophet didnt Go against the Queresh he was telling them to practice the religion that God had told them to follow….
That the Kaabah was built by Ishmael, or that Muhammad was a prophet, all these are not historical facts accepted by the Pre-Islamic Arabs and the rest of the world. These are claims & believes of the early Muslims but the pagans believe otherwise. So it’s one believe vs another believe, not fact vs fiction as you try to put it. If you believe the prophet can execute any Quraysh who leaves Islam then the pagans also had equal right to execute any Quraysh who leaves their native religion. Otherwise it’s double standard.

what is Muta in the Quran? How do you Know what it is from the Quran?
Your the one that brought up Homosexuality so where does it talk about homosexuality in the Quran and what is the point of bringing it up?
Mut’a is in verse 4 24, please read the translations & tafsirs. Some Shi’a Muslims still practise it because they don’t accept the Sunni hadiths that prohibit it. The strange part is even some Sunnis circumvent that and practise Mut’a with a different name i.e Misyar marriage. As for homosexuality, verse 4:16 has interpretations that it includes homosexual couple. My opinion is, if any offence that takes a precious life away as punishment surely must be sanctioned by Allah as He is the life giver and not anyone else. Thus if the Quran do not clearly sanctioned it, no hadiths should override as Quran is supposedly the supreme. That’s all.

There are many verses like this but looking at the world and it has the largest population of Muslims in Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Persia, Turkey and Africa it safe to say it is a universal religion. Its also the fastest growing religion on the planet. So its for all places and times…… …Those (other) religions have little to offer to outsiders - they are either tribal unlike universal religions like Islam and Christianity, which are everywhere and are growing at a faster rate then other religions for an obvious reasons (they are universal)…… Unlike let’s say Islam and Christianity which threaten you with Judgment after death and only one shot at life. So you need to take life seriously and make a decision urgently on them.
Currently Islam is growing fast because of population growth & Christianity is growing fast because of conversion of the hungry/poor with sandwiches. Does this prove the universality of both that religions? I think universality has other meanings & it’s not just a number game.
Just to share, I had a Muslim relative who devoted all his life for his faith, was physically/financially healthy but died without fulfilling his basic pillar/obligation of Islam simply because he never struck the Hajj lottery while waiting all his life. This is the case for millions others around the world. If fulfilling your fundamentals of your faith depends on lucky draw, it’s far from anything universal. On the other hand, the Quran said it was sent for the Meccans & surrounding area (Quran 6 92), and in that case, no one would need a lottery. This only shows Islam was never meant to have this many followers outside of Arabia.

Thanks
Reply

azc
07-06-2018, 06:30 AM
@yandex :

Islam is the ONLY universal religion and Muhammad (s.a.w), sent to all mankind, is the last messenger.

“Say (0 Muhammad): O mankind, Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all (the messenger of) Him unto whom belongs the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. There is no God save Him. He qives life and He gives death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believes in Allah and in His words and follow him that haply, you may be led aright” (al-A‘raf: 158)

“Blessed is He who has revealed to His slave the Criterion (of right and wrong), that he may be a warner to all of the peoples” (al-Furqan: 1)

“And We have not sent you (O Muhammad) save as a bringer of good tidings and a warner to all mankind; but most of mankind knows not” (Saba’: 28)
Reply

Abz2000
07-06-2018, 12:49 PM
Found this after 'Asr and couldn't add it on edit so here yas go:

Allah's method of protecting - from the plots of the corrupt and from failiure -those who seek, learn, and use wisdom with the book and other lawful knowledge:

وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَهَمَّت طَّائِفَةٌ مِّنْهُمْ أَن يُضِلُّوكَ وَمَا يُضِلُّونَ إِلَّا أَنفُسَهُمْ وَمَا يَضُرُّونَكَ مِن شَيْءٍ
وَأَنزَلَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكَ
الْكِتَابَ
وَالْحِكْمَةَ
وَعَلَّمَكَ مَا لَمْ تَكُن تَعْلَمُ
وَكَانَ فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكَ عَظِيمًا

M. M. Pickthall
But for the grace of Allah upon thee (Muhammad), and His mercy, a party of them had resolved to mislead thee, but they will mislead only themselves and they will hurt thee not at all.
Allah revealeth unto thee
the Scripture
and wisdom,
and teacheth thee that which thou knewest not.
The grace of Allah toward thee hath been infinite.


Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
But for the Grace of Allah to thee and his Mercy, a party of them would certainly have plotted to lead thee astray. But (in fact) they will only Lead their own souls astray, and to thee they can do no harm in the least.
For Allah hath sent down to thee
the Book
and wisdom
and taught thee what thou Knewest not (before):
And great is the Grace of Allah unto thee.


Quran 4:113
Reply

Zafran
07-07-2018, 12:59 AM
Originally Posted by yandex
That the Kaabah was built by Ishmael, or that Muhammad was a prophet, all these are not historical facts accepted by the Pre-Islamic Arabs and the rest of the world. These are claims & believes of the early Muslims but the pagans believe otherwise. So it’s one believe vs another believe, not fact vs fiction as you try to put it.
Where is the historical proof for this claim? Its well known that the arabs or descendants of Ishmeal and Abhram pbuh and the children of Israel through Issac pbuh. Both Muslims and non Muslims agree with that.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by yandex
If you believe the prophet can execute any Quraysh
No nobody believes that.......

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by yandex
Currently Islam is growing fast because of population growth & Christianity is growing fast because of conversion of the hungry/poor with sandwiches. Does this prove the universality of both that religions?
Islam is growing because people are still having families and children which are the building blocks of any serious Human flourishing. Christianity is growing in china and sub Sahara Africa for the same reasons. As I said these are much more relevant and universal (they are all over the world in nearly every culture) then the other eastern religions. Furthermore India had problems of female infanticide which is way India has a big issues with males and female ratios.


Originally Posted by yandex
I had a Muslim relative who devoted all his life for his faith, was physically/financially healthy but died without fulfilling his basic pillar/obligation of Islam simply because he never struck the Hajj lottery while waiting all his life. This is the case for millions others around the world. If fulfilling your fundamentals of your faith depends on lucky draw, it’s far from anything universal.
That is because of India's population - nevertheless he had the right intentions and may God give him the highest station in Jannah - you do Know that if you cant do an obligation like fast or Hajj because of a genuine reason (eg restriction of how many can go on Hajj because over the crazy population in India) then God is merciful and Gracious.

Islam is universal because from the Turks, Malaysians, Indonesians, Arabs, Persians, Africans and Indians it gives a existential purpose and brotherhood in Faith, A Moral anchor and eschatology. Its nearly in every culture and place - By 2050 India will have the most largest Muslim population by country as well! Truly universal only Christianity is as universal.
Reply

azc
07-07-2018, 07:24 AM
@yandex :

the Quran said it was sent for the Meccans & surrounding area (Quran 6 92)
No, you are wrong.

I think universality has other meanings & it’s not just a number game.
what are 'other meanings'?

As for homosexuality, verse 4:16 has interpretations that it includes homosexual couple
Do you want that it should be permitted...?

The strange part is even some Sunnis circumvent that and practise Mut’a with a different name i.e Misyar marriage.
No, Both are different.
Mut’a is in verse 4 24
, No, it's not proven

There are many hadiths, even sahih ones that puts the prophet and Allah in a very precarious spot. I can show it to you.
o.k. Show it
Reply

yandex
07-09-2018, 07:47 AM
@Zafran

Where is the historical proof for this claim? Its well known that the arabs or descendants of Ishmeal and Abhram pbuh and the children of Israel through Issac pbuh. Both Muslims and non Muslims agree with that.
How can Ishmael be the father of all the Arabs when his father was an Aramaic, mother was an Egyptian and as a child, learned Arabic from an already existing Arab tribe (Jurhum) in Mecca?
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/60/43

@ azc

(yandex said )the Quran said it was sent for the Meccans & surrounding area (Quran 6 92)
(azc said) No, you are wrong.
I did show some instances where the Quranic verses were more relevant to the Meccans at that time rather than the whole world/ for all times. Quran 4 34 is another example. This verse may have served its purpose for the Bedouins of that time but how is it relevant now? This verse means what it means, you can beat/ scourge your wife. That’s what all Muslim translators & tafsirs confirm. Please also note that beating here is not like tickling with a toothpick as some would like to suggest. The hadith below make things clear. Here the prophet seems just oblivious to Aisha’s laments and was addressing the nikah halala issue instead.

Narrated `Ikrima:
Rifa`a divorced his wife whereupon `AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. `Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came, `Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" ……
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/77/42

(yandex said)There are many hadiths, even sahih ones that puts the prophet and Allah in a very precarious spot. I can show it to you.
(azc said) o.k. Show it
As an example, tell me why it makes sense to you & nothing amiss here to accept such a hadith (supposedly sahih)? The linked hadith narrates that women are majority in Hell because they are deficient in intelligence & deficient in religion. The deficiency in religion is limitations caused by them having menses!!!
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/6/9

@ umie

Btw, as I asked in a much earlier post, why a bust/picture of a person or animal is haram/shirk but not that of a plant/tree/flower? If you are not sure, perhaps other members can explain instead.

@ Abz2000

Can you please teach me the story of the Iblis that you quoted some time back ? I mean what happened to Iblis after Allah kicked him out of heaven for not bowing to Adam? Where was he exiled, earth or another dimension? If you are busy, perhaps other members can explain instead.

Thanks
Reply

Abz2000
07-09-2018, 07:51 AM
Originally Posted by yandex


@Abz2000



So, all contradictions/U turns are simply just appearing to be one and even if there is really any, it is merely a mercy from God of your religion? Thanks, now anyone pick this up & make such excuse to cover all problems in their respective religion or even cult.

Btw, what's Iblis story got to do with U-turns? Also, if Iblis got kicked out of heaven after disobeying Allah, where did he go in exile? Please elaborate.

Allah knows the details of the past, the present, and the future - so it is perfectly logical to come to the conclusion that any change in instruction that He made or makes is done purposefully so.
I shall not delve too far into the secrets of destiny - since there is a limit to how much a human being can encompass of it's knowledge and i do not know more than what Allah makes known - so please do not prod or tempt - what is certain is that Allah :swt: knows - and you know this for a fact too - unless you want to prove yourself to be a liar simply seeking contention and not a sincere individual seeking correct understanding.
Simple logic.



Regarding iblees - the fact that Allah :swt: commanded obeisance to a being of clay into which He had breathed of His Spirit - although making it different to a lifeless piece of stone, wood, clay, glass, (etc), it is still possible to derive from it that there is a requirement to acknowledge the limit to the knowledge and wisdom of all creatures in relation to the Creator of the heavens and the earth - and that it is folly to attempt to argue against His wisdom in opposition to Him, and that His command to not bow to idols, lifeless flags, and defrauding tyrant leaders in opposition to Allah :swt: - is a part of the logical process of getting the dupes of iblees to question and probe their own minds when they realise that he -out of revenge- coaxes and steers them to bowing to idols every time he turns any set of people away from sound minded monotheism - and the idols that were later found installed at al ka'bah which was erected in devotion to the One God by the prophet who achieved reknown in youth for his breaking of national idols - - by his descendents who respected him, boasted of lineage to him, and were still following many of his rites - until the coming of the final Prophet (whose predecessor was to follow him later :) ) - - are a testament to this fact.
When iblees said: "fa bi - 'izzatika" i.e by use of Your Power and Authority - he is basically stating that he will make wrong fairseeming to his dupes by using pretended assimilation and made to appear in-line tactics - with dark presented as reflectng light just as is done by practitioners of black magic witchcraft and satanic masons who use methods derived from what was revealed at babel to harut and marut - just as they did during Sulaiman :as: 's dominion.



Where was iblees exiled from?
From the court of God.

Where to?
To the places where he could unwittingly in service to God - test the intelligence and stupidity of people - and lead his followers to falsehood, greed, and crime, and to hell, whilst helping in the work of sifting, separating, distinction, and elevation of those who would excel in all that is fair and just.

Anton lavey (founder of the church of satan) explains how anything that is Godless, including atheism and idol worship - is simply a part or extension of satanism.


The one major thing that bothers me logically (possibly like iblees in that regard) is the fact that God knew the future when He created Adam, and that He still allowed him to fall and then begin life on earth, and us descendents to be created in extension, to kill and eat other biological organisms in order to survive, and He knew which of us would go to paradise and which to hell.
But then, i am forced to resign to and accept the unchangeable reality of our situation - and only achieve resolve from the fact that God's guidance in this unfathomable maze is the only workable and just method of getting through it - this is helped by the observation that those who remove themselves from God, and fall into the lap of iblees, are the most false, hateful, greedy, unsympathetic, savage, and unjust of us - so i really submit to God because i have no other choice considering the fact that i am in a tempestuous ocean - and obedience to God gets me on land, whereas rejection via denial of the truth, and disobedience to Him puts me with the falsehood mongering criminals and gets me to the pit.
I know that death is inevitable - so I'm a house nigga in respect of the bigger picture since these seventy or so years in servitude is what it takes to fall to the bottom of the pit if i go rogue and fail -whereas if i sell out to Allah and win grace, i get to be with the good guys and girls, and then get a bumper retirement package.






66. He said, “Nay, throw ye first!” Then behold their ropes and their rods-so it seemed to him on account of their magic – began to be in lively motion!
67. So Moses conceived in his mind a (sort of) fear.
68. We said: “Fear not! for thou hast indeed the upper hand:
69. “Throw that which is in thy right hand: Quickly will it swallow up that which they have faked what they have faked is but a magician’s trick: and the magician thrives not, (no matter) where he goes.”
70. So the magicians were thrown down to prostration: they said, “We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses”.
71. (Pharaoh) said: “Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this must be your leader, who has taught you magic! be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees: so shall ye know for certain, which of us can give the more severe and the more lasting punishment!”
72. They said: “Never shall we regard thee as more than the Clear Signs that have come to us, or than Him Who created us! so decree whatever thou desirest to decree: for thou canst only decree (touching) the life of this world.
73. “For us, we have believed in our Lord: may He forgive us our faults, and the magic to which thou didst compel us: for Allah is Best and Most Abiding.”
74. Verily he who comes to his Lord as a sinner (at Judgment),- for him is Hell: therein shall he neither die nor live.
75. But such as come to Him as Believers who have worked righteous deeds,- for them are ranks exalted,-
76. Gardens of Eternity, beneath which flow rivers: they will dwell therein for aye: such is the reward of those who purify themselves (from evil).

From Quran, Chapter 20




13You who are far away, hear what I have done;
you who are near, acknowledge my power!
14The sinners in Zion are terrified;
trembling grips the godless:
“Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?”
15Those who walk righteously
and speak what is right,
who reject gain from extortion
and keep their hands from accepting bribes,
who stop their ears against plots of murder
and shut their eyes against contemplating evil—
16they are the ones who will dwell on the heights,
whose refuge will be the mountain fortress.
Their bread will be supplied,
and water will not fail them.

From Isaiah 33




Acceptance of the false reality of the oppressive Rothschild matrix and indulgence in it is a bad trade when one considers the truth and ponders on eternity - especially considering that yesterday is only an electronic pattern saved in our brains - and that - only if we can remember it correctly.






----



36. Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge.
37. And a Sign for them is the Night: We withdraw therefrom the Day, and behold they are plunged in darkness;
38. And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
39. And the Moon,- We have measured for her mansions (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk.
40. It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
41. And a Sign for them is that We bore their race (through the Flood) in the loaded Ark;
42. And We have created for them similar (vessels) on which they ride.
43. If it were Our Will, We could drown them: then would there be no helper (to hear their cry), nor could they be delivered,
44. Except by way of Mercy from Us, and by way of (world) convenience (to serve them) for a time.
45. When they are told, “Fear ye that which is before you and that which will be after you, in order that ye may receive Mercy,” (they turn back).
46. Not a Sign comes to them from among the Signs of their Lord, but they turn away therefrom.
47. And when they are told, “Spend ye of (the bounties) with which Allah has provided you,” the Unbelievers say to those who believe: “Shall we then feed those whom, if Allah had so willed, He would have fed, (Himself)?- Ye are in nothing but manifest error.”
48. Further, they say, “When will this promise (come to pass), if what ye say is true?”
49. They will not (have to) wait for aught but a single Horn Blast: it will seize them while they are yet disputing among themselves!
50. No (chance) will they then have, by will, to dispose (of their affairs), nor to return to their own people!
51. The trumpet shall be sounded, when behold! They, from the graves will rush forth to their Lord!
52. They will say: “Ah! Woe unto us! Who hath raised us up from our beds of repose?”… (A voice will say: ) “This is what ((Allah)) Most Gracious had promised. And true was the word of the Messengers!”

53. It will be no more than a single scream/shout/blast on the horn, when lo! they will all be brought up before Us!
54. Then, on that Day, not a soul will be wronged in the least, and ye shall but be repaid the meeds of your past Deeds.
55. Verily the Companions of the Garden shall that Day have joy in all that they do;
56. They and their associates will be in groves of (cool) shade, reclining on Thrones (of dignity);
57. (Every) fruit (enjoyment) will be there for them; they shall have whatever they call for;
58. “Peace!” – a word (of salutation) from a Lord Most Merciful!
59. “And O ye in sin! Get ye apart this Day!
60. “Did I not enjoin on you, O ye Children of Adam, that ye should not worship Satan; for that he was to you an enemy avowed?-
61. “And that ye should worship Me, (for that) this was the Straight Way?
62. “But he did lead astray a great multitude of you. Did ye not, then, understand?
63. “This is the Hell of which ye were (repeatedly) warned!
64. “Embrace ye the (fire) this Day, for that ye (persistently) rejected (Truth).”
65. That Day shall We set a seal on their mouths. But their hands will speak to us, and their feet bear witness, to all that they did.
66. If it had been our Will, We could surely have blotted out their eyes; then should they have run about groping for the Path, but how could they have seen?
67. And if it had been Our Will, We could have transformed them (to remain) in their places; then should they have been unable to move about, nor could they have returned (after error).
68. If We grant long life to any, We cause him to be reversed in nature: Will they not then understand?
69. We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur’an making things clear:
70. That it may give admonition to any (who are) alive, and that the charge may be proved against those who reject (Truth).
71. See they not that it is We Who have created for them – among the things which Our hands have fashioned – cattle, which are under their dominion?-
72. And that We have subjected them to their (use)? of them some do carry them and some they eat:
73. And they have (other) profits from them (besides), and they get (milk) to drink. Will they not then be grateful?
74. Yet they take (for worship) gods other than Allah, (hoping) that they might be helped!
75. They have not the power to help them: but they are for them a troop present/prepared.
76. Let not their speech, then, grieve thee. Verily We know what they hide as well as what they disclose.
77. Doth not man see that it is We Who created him from sperm? yet behold! he (stands forth) as an open adversary!
78. And he makes comparisons for Us, and forgets his own (origin and) Creation: He says, “Who can give life to (dry) bones and decomposed ones (at that)?”
79. Say, “He will give them life Who created them for the first time! for He is Well-versed in every kind of creation!-

80. “The same Who produces for you fire out of the green tree, when behold! ye kindle therewith (your own fires)!
81. “Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth able to create the like thereof?” – Yea, indeed! for He is the Creator Supreme, of skill and knowledge (infinite)!
82. Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, “be”, and it is!
83. So glory to Him in Whose hands is the dominion of all things: and to Him will ye be all brought back.


From Quran, Chapter 36
Reply

Ümit
07-09-2018, 10:46 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
The one major thing that bothers me logically (possibly like iblees in that regard) is the fact that God knew the future when He created Adam, and that He still allowed him to fall and then begin life on earth, and us descendents to be created in extension, to kill and eat other biological organisms in order to survive, and He knew which of us would go to paradise and which to hell.
But then, i am forced to resign to and accept the unchangeable reality of our situation - and only achieve resolve from the fact that God's guidance in this unfathomable maze is the only workable and just method of getting through it - this is helped by the observation that those who remove themselves from God, and fall into the lap of iblees, are the most false, hateful, greedy, unsympathetic, savage, and unjust of us - so i really submit to God because i have no other choice considering the fact that i am in a tempestuous ocean - and obedience to God gets me on land, whereas rejection via denial of the truth, and disobedience to Him puts me with the falsehood mongering criminals and gets me to the pit.
I know that death is inevitable - so I'm a house nigga in respect of the bigger picture since these seventy or so years in servitude is what it takes to fall to the bottom of the pit if i go rogue and fail whereas if i sell out to Allah and win grace, i get to be with the good guys and girls, and then get a bumper retirement package.
Hello Abz2000,

You are using way too complicated English. I cannot always follow you unfortunately.
For as good as I could understand you are struggling with the logical part why we are getting to live on this Earth, although Allah already knows which one will go to Heaven and which one will go to hell....am I correct?

Let me try to help you with that part.

Adam as did not fall...he did not make a sin. he was destined to be send to Earth. being send to Earth was NOT his punishment. He would be sent to Earth anyway whether he had eaten from that apple or not.
Second,
you have to realize why Allah created us.
Allah is perfectly capable of creating strong, powerfull and fast creatures like angels...yet he chose to create weak, slow, lazy creatures like us...and what exactly gives us a higher rank then the angels?
important here is that Allah did not create anything out of need...so whether powerfull and fast, or weak and slow does not make any difference for Allah.
the thing that distuinguishes us from the angels is our free will.
Angels are programmed to obey...to disobey is not an option...angels cannot do that. Humans however can disobey....but despite of that we CHOOSE to believe in Allah...We CHOOSE to worship Allah...we could choose not to...but we choose out of free will to do so...this gives us our higher rank than the angels.

so, true free will is inportant here...in order to have a free will...we must have a real choice....without the bad, we cannot choose for the good...there must be a choice to make in order to have free will.
that is why some of us will make the wrong choice and get thrown in hell. that is the price for having a free will.

and then...of course he already knows which one of us will make the right choice and which of us will make the wrong choice...he does not need a test for this...but then again, this test is not for him...this test has a complete different purpose. this test is meant only for us...to make us witnesses from our own deeds and choices...so that we can understand it the reason we are placed in heaven or hell.

how would you react if God just picked you up and threw you into Hell....wouldn't you ask "why God? what did I do to deserve this?" then God would answer something like "I know you better than you know wourself"...but still that answer would not satisfy you...you would not understand....but by coming to the Earth first and being part of your own deeds...you would very much understand the reason.
Reply

azc
07-09-2018, 12:34 PM
@yandex :

I did show some instances where the Quranic verses were more relevant to the Meccans at that time rather than the whole world/ for all times.
and you have been proven wrong.

See another verse:

Ar-Rum (The Romans) - 30:22

And among his wonders is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the diversity of your tongues and colours: for in this, behold, there are messages indeed for all who are possessed of [innate] knowledge!
msg of Islam is for all regardless of their language or colour.

lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating)
The Prophet (pbuh) expressed astonishment at the cruelty of certain men when he said: "Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening ?"(Bukhari and Muslim)

http://www.answering-christianity.co...quran_4_34.htm

hadith narrates that women are majority in Hell because they are deficient in intelligence & deficient in religion.
Why do you quote hadith when you don't understand it. ?

"O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Messenger ‏s.a.w‏ ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands.
Reply

Abz2000
07-09-2018, 06:45 PM
@umie i didn't have a clue it was complicated English - probably more to do with my haphazard use of dashes and commas in an attempt to separate topics, will keep that in mind though :jzk: for your positive feedback - though please bear in mind that i use a phone lying down or leaning on pillows and that makes it impossible to get a full screen preview of my posts.

you know that still doesn't answer the question as to why He makes us go through it all - other than the fact that He's Boss and does what He wills, but since i have a feeling i wont have that answer unless and until He makes it known on earth - or until i am raised again after death, i'm resigned to wait in patience - and anyways, i'd much rather be a slave to God than to an infidel or hypocrite or even a believer so i'm quite cozy considering the alternatives.
Questioning it too much feels like overstepping my rank and i know that He knows best so that's sufficient for me - especially after having watched the Yusuf series and seeing an acted out version of how he had to accept slavery to the aziz and get tempted by his lascivious wife (and he had it easy in conparison to others) - i can assure you that slavery to God -who is the obvious truth- is more honourable and easy to deal with - especially given the freedom from servitude to other humans, stability, sanity and the rewards.




@azc he was most likely referring to a different hadith which generally makes sense to those who compare and research - but creates fitnah and defensiveness when mentioned to the less aware who are loaded on mass secularist media run by the usurers. But again, the above topic about iblees' refusal to accept his God given designation and bow may help to make it easier to accept - we're all in it together lol but i sure as heaven and hell would die fighting that crooked degenerate trump than i would fighting God or even contemplating the latter. British and American soldiers standing on judgement day as honourable martyrs for rothschild, battenberg, and trump makes for good comedy rather than anything worth seriously contemplating.


Edit: it was actually a part of the same Bukhari hadith - although it appears that you neglected to mention the next part despite it immediately following your text - and even though it is steering very far from the topic or anything even general to comparative religion or fundamental Islamic discussion - almost as if you were waiting for someone to contradict you and steer the posts into an off topic debate about women's rights (a well observed and over-used tactic for scoring points with the ignorant) along with your apparent colleague/friend/partner yandex who also appears to be doing the same - please wisen up since it's getting obvious.

Here is the complete hadith anyway for references sake (though i believe in this case it applies to you and yandex more than it applies to women) :

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/6/9

Please open a thread on it and copy paste if you want to debate issues on women's rights - i only say this because it comes across as disrespectfully belligerent when such attempted point scoring takes place - seeing as the people posting such diversions care little in reality about women's rights and care more about causing confusion and defensiveness when they feel insecure in that they cannot address the topic intellectually and therefore attempt to mirror their insecurity onto others who actually feel quite calm addressing such topics. We all veer on and off topic sometimes - but when it becomes obvious trolling (like: "but what's your view on Aston FC then?" during a discussion on ceiling fans in Birmingham City Center - and then the person "choosing" to be advocate says something half baked or lame such as "but Aston Villa only scored 2 goals in a match 65 seasons ago") - it becomes questionable to say the least.





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14. When he reached full age, and was firmly established (in life), We bestowed on him wisdom and knowledge: for thus do We reward those who do good.
15. And he entered the city at a time when its people were not watching: and he found there two men fighting,- one of his own religion, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said: “This is a work of Evil (Satan): for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!”
16. He prayed: “O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!” So ((Allah)) forgave him: for He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
17. He said: “O my Lord! For that You have bestowed Your Grace on me, never shall I be a help to the criminals!”
18. So he saw the morning in the city, looking about, in a state of fear, when behold, the man who had, the day before, sought his help called aloud for his help (again). Moses said to him: “You are truly, it is clear,a plain misleader!”
19. Then, when he decided to lay hold of the man who was an enemy to both of them, that man said: “O Moses! Is it your intention to slay me as you slew a man yesterday? Your intention is none other than to become a powerful violent man in the land, and not to be one who sets things right!”

From Quran, Chapter 28


@yandex , please do ask questions for which you actually seek answers but please avoid purposefully playing cat and mouse games simply for the sake of contention and strife.
Also be aware that i am simply attempting to clarify rather than obscure via confusion.

I look forward to answering your questions about the green shawl and others on a relevant thread.
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Zafran
07-09-2018, 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by yandex
How can Ishmael be the father of all the Arabs when his father was an Aramaic, mother was an Egyptian and as a child, learned Arabic from an already existing Arab tribe (Jurhum) in Mecca?
:facepalm::facepalm: The link proves my point.........actually do some research next time.
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Ümit
07-10-2018, 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
@umie i didn't have a clue it was complicated English - probably more to do with my haphazard use of dashes and commas in an attempt to separate topics, will keep that in mind though :jzk: for your positive feedback - though please bear in mind that i use a phone lying down or leaning on pillows and that makes it impossible to get a full screen preview of my posts.

you know that still doesn't answer the question as to why He makes us go through it all - other than the fact that He's Boss and does what He wills, but since i have a feeling i wont have that answer unless and until He makes it known on earth - or until i am raised again after death, i'm resigned to wait in patience - and anyways, i'd much rather be a slave to God than to an infidel or hypocrite or even a believer so i'm quite cozy considering the alternatives.
Questioning it too much feels like overstepping my rank and i know that He knows best so that's sufficient for me - especially after having watched the Yusuf series and seeing an acted out version of how he had to accept slavery to the aziz and get tempted by his lascivious wife (and he had it easy in conparison to others) - i can assure you that slavery to God -who is the obvious truth- is more honourable and easy to deal with - especially given the freedom from servitude to other humans, stability, sanity and the rewards.
you must not think that way Abz2000. Of course He's Boss and does what he wishes...so you might not get the answer you are looking for...everything OK...and that you are cosy with it also fine...Untill this point I am just like you...Curious about something...but my faith is not dependent on the answer i might or might not find.

but do not think that you are overstepping your rank if you question it too much...we humans are created this way, it is our nature to question things and look for answers...that's what we do. that's how we learn..and it can be only good...it is not out of doubt that you have this question it is out of curiousity...you just have a question and you wish an answer for it...whether you find an answer to it or not, does not change anything about yout faith and loyality to Allah. So, do not worry to overstep your rank.
I also have watched this...all 49episodes...pretty interesting. I liked it very much. I wish there were similar series for all of our prophets...it is very educative.
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yandex
07-11-2018, 05:12 AM
@ azc

The Prophet (pbuh) expressed astonishment at the cruelty of certain men when he said: "Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening ?"(Bukhari and Muslim) http://www.answering-christianity.co...quran_4_34.htm
Please read below the full hadith that you hinted partially above and another one related to it. The prophet did not forbid beating your wife but he is advising not to trash them as hard you would to a camel/slave. The concern on sleeping with her immediately is to remind not to do it unless you have done the Witr prayer. As I showed you in the earlier hadith, it is Aisha who lamented that "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" This summarizes the fate of the Muslims women. If you don’t agree Aisha, then I have nothing to comment further.

Narrated `Abdullah bin Zam`a:
The Prophet (ﷺ) forbade laughing at a person who passes wind, and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?" And Hisham said, "As he beats his slave"
Sahih al-Bukhari 6042 Book of Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab)

It was narrated that Ash'ath bin Qais said:
"I was a guest (at the home) of 'Umar one night, and in the middle of the night he went and hit his wife, and I separated them. When he went to bed he said to me: 'O Ash'ath, learn from me something that I heard from the Messenger of Allah" A man should not be asked why he beats his wife, and do not go to sleep until you have prayed the Witr."' And I forgot the third thing."
English reference : Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1986 Sunan Ibn Majah » The Chapters on Marriage


Why do you quote hadith when you don't understand it. ?
"O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Messenger ‏s.a.w‏ ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands.
The reply of the prophet is in between the quote-unquote. Here is the full text https://sunnah.com/bukhari/6/9. You just stopped at the prophet’s first sentence of his reply. I’m not sure why. Even for the first sentence, this blame is not valid anymore. In the 21st century many women & Muslimahs are equal & some are the sole breadwinners of the family & it is their men who laze at home and curse & be ungrateful to their wives.


@ Abz2000

please do ask questions for which you actually seek answers but please avoid purposefully playing cat and mouse games simply for the sake of contention and strife. Also be aware that i am simply attempting to clarify rather than obscure via confusion. I look forward to answering your questions about the green shawl and others on a relevant thread.
I have no interest to have a dedicated discussion on the green shawl /women in hell etc. Anyway I’m a limited member, so I don’t get to start any thread/reply in sections/subsections elsewhere. My point is either these hadiths are falsely attributed to the prophet or they were valid for the harsh 7th century Bedouin only. If you think they are true and valid for all times, please feel free to clarify to fellow Muslimahs. As the Quran says "…Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." (2:111)

@Zafran

Originally Posted by Zafran
The link proves my point.........actually do some research next time.
Hmm…I read it again and am not sure what I’m missing. Anyway let’s put things (& Ishmael) in perspective:


  1. An Aramaic guy marries an Egyptian women, has a son & settles down near Mecca, meets an Arab tribe (Jurhum), the son learns Arabic from them and marries one of them. Now the son is FATHER of ALL Arabs.
  2. A Japanese guy marries a Kenyan women, has a son & settles down near Kabul, meets a Pasthun tribe (Sarbani), the son learns Pashto from them and marries one of them. Now the son is the FATHER of ALL Pashtuns.

If No.1 makes sense, then No.2 should too.

Thanks
Reply

azc
07-11-2018, 03:01 PM
@yandex :

You just stopped at the prophet’s first sentence of his reply. I’m not sure why
See, you misunderstood the hadith; and said:
hadith narrates that women are majority in Hell because they are deficient in intelligence & deficient in religion.
the reason (which you think) of them being in hell fire isn't deficiency in intelligence and religion, rather they are in hell because of '' (habit of) cursing frequently and ungratefulness to their husbands''

* this is why I quoted this part of hadith to refute your wrong allegation.

For other issue, see this link plz
http://www.answering-christianity.co...quran_4_34.htm

- - - Updated - - -
@yandex :

You just stopped at the prophet’s first sentence of his reply. I’m not sure why
See, you misunderstood the hadith; and said:
hadith narrates that women are majority in Hell because they are deficient in intelligence & deficient in religion.
the reason (which you think) of them being in hell fire isn't deficiency in intelligence and religion, rather they are in hell because of '' (habit of) cursing frequently and ungratefulness to their husbands''

* this is why I quoted this part of hadith to refute your wrong allegation.

For other issue, see this link plz
http://www.answering-christianity.co...quran_4_34.htm
Reply

Zafran
07-11-2018, 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by yandex
An Aramaic guy marries an Egyptian women, has a son & settles down near Mecca, meets an Arab tribe (Jurhum), the son learns Arabic from them and marries one of them. Now the son is FATHER of ALL Arabs.
How is Abraham pbuh speaking Aramaic or an Aramaic guy? What Arabic were Jurhum speaking? hes known as the father of the Arabs by the account of Genesis and many Arabs consider him the first to speak pure "Arabic" in traditional accounts - what is the point of all this again?
Reply

Abz2000
07-12-2018, 09:02 AM
Originally Posted by yandex
@ Abz2000



I have no interest to have a dedicated discussion on the green shawl /women in hell etc. Anyway I’m a limited member, so I don’t get to start any thread/reply in sections/subsections elsewhere. My point is either these hadiths are falsely attributed to the prophet or they were valid for the harsh 7th century Bedouin only. If you think they are true and valid for all times, please feel free to clarify to fellow Muslimahs. As the Quran says "…Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." (2:111)
Regarding the hadith i linked:
I cannot say for certain - and don't even have an inkling as to whether these statements are authentic or not so we are therefore left with the answer: "if he said it - then it is true" and can work from the basis that it is possible that he said it if there is no valid reason for dismissing it, chains of narrations can be useful - as can be an experienced hadith scholar's opinion as to whether it seems strange in comparison to his level of intellect and other statements.
I opine that if he did say it - he possibly gave an opinion as to why more women are in hell - the latter being an assertion of a fact that he had witnessed and not based on opinion.

Regarding the "green" bruises greener than green shawls - firstly we know that this is an exaggerated analogy - which indicates bias, and therefore requires a defensive response:

When the guidance of Islam arrives to a people, it gradually, and in some cases immediately, does away with traits of ignorance and social ills such as consumption of intoxicants, adultery and fornication, and burial of female children who appear to be from a different father (sons were assets since they could fight and also bring in money from the wild).

There was no monopoly on violence (which is often held by usurers today via puppet legislators and soldiery) just as there is no strict monopoly on violence in many systems today (where an act of violence is more liberally looked at for its circumstantial merits (referencing description 2 - particular)
circumstantial
səːkəmˈstanʃ(ə)l/
adjective
1.
pointing indirectly towards someone's guilt but not conclusively proving it.
"the prosecution will have to rely on circumstantial evidence"
synonyms: indirect, inferred, inferential, deduced, presumed, conjectural; More
2.
(of a description) containing full details.
"the picture was so circumstantial that it began to be convincing"
synonyms: detailed, particularized, particular, precise, minute, blow-by-blow;
)
even if it is coded in the secularist law books.

So when a dynamic alpha male who holds a natural capability of violence over his family stops taking judgement corrupting intoxicants such as alcohol, stops hanging with loser friends, and stops committing adultery - he is more likely to feel indignant when the female who is more habit inclined, - - - less familiar with overall judgemental decision making in a society where war and heavy manual labour are not the woman's task, and for whom not much has really changed other than the fact that her husband is no longer drunk, sexually promiscuous, and is setting more rules in the household, - - - refuses to assimilate and allows corrupt house-to-house gossiping women, and men in whose hearts is disease who still walk in the shadows to penetrate his fortress and Allah whom he now respects and worships' fortress.


This is a natural human transaction although it is difficult to understand by people who continue to consume intoxicants and continue to commit sexual promiscuity themselves, and where the bulk of masculine labour is borne by machines and people in poorer countries.

The Messenger of Allah's method of involving the women who wanted to come to the mosque in Islam by commanding that the female servants of Allah :swt: must not be prevented from visiting the house of Allah :swt: would have gradually fixed this issue via reprogramming.

A woman's indignation and a man's indignation are different generally in that the decision of the male is usually out of conviction with no direct pressure - and they will often get together and fight a leadership which is at odds with them, whereas that of the female often includes the perception of imposition by a non-perfect human being that she is bound to.

The wandering in the wilderness of banee israeel after coming out of slavery to pharaoh had divine wisdom behind it - and of the benefits were: understanding needs and the methods to achieve them; learning teamwork, community structuring, and decision making under nature's imposition and not under the lash of taskmasters working for parasitical leaders; and removal of default psychological disdain and revolt to commands by leadership.

Women will always face some of these emotions and have to live with them unless they devolve to hermaphrodites - which is why the Prophet :saws: advised leniency towards them and referred to them as something that can neither be fully straightened, nor left fully crooked.

They are a department of the male who is manager of head office in terms of overall running of Allah's corporation on earth.
That is why satan and dajjal target women and whisper rebellion to them and give them cosmetic executive positions, that is why they are more easily tricked - it is a psychological fact that people can be made to accept the unacceptable if they are desperate, and satan works to make people despair of Allah's mercy, which is why women need to be learned in Islam.


Now that you have received your answer in a very candid fashion - please address any further questions on the relevant threads for the topics, a simple google search which includes the term islamicboard should present you the correct thread if the search bar on the top right of your screen doesn't.

Islamic point of view domestic violence

It is disrespectful to troll.


In Internet slang, a troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
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