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Raymann
08-01-2018, 02:30 AM
Brief introduction, purpose for signing on this forum and question.
Introduction:
I'm a westerner living in New York City who considers himself a mix of Atheist and Agnostic.I grew up in a Catholic family so my morals, culture and personality have been heavily influenced by Christianity.
Purpose:
In the world that I live, Islam is the topic of conversation very often from the past 20 years or so.Before that time I knew very little about Islam and Muslims.I have a passion for researching the topics I find interesting.I get my information from mass media, the internet,(forums, youtube, etc), and electronic books (Quran, Bible, etc)I have heard bad things about the Islamic World, things that are strange and incompatible with the way I live.So I'm here because I want to hear from Muslims themselves if the bad things I hear are misinterpreted or that really Islamic culture is too different from Western culture and therefore incompatible. Can we live side by side? Or sooner or later it is going to explode?
I know many Muslims now but I have never been a real friend with any of them.I find them a little intimidating, they seem to be always in the defensive and ready to jump at you.Whatever I say is quickly responded by a :Can you defend your claim? or Can you prove what you're saying? or can you provide a link to prove it? or that is not in the Quran, or get your facts straight. So you can understand what I mean by being intimidated by some very intense Muslims.
My question and topic today is "Rape in Islamic Countries"
My research indicates that there's a huge flaw in Islamic Countries that allow "Most rape cases to go unpunished" and unreported. Men know they can get away with rape and women wouldn't dare to accuse a man of rape and risking her life by doing so (Adultery)
Is it true? Who's fault is it? Islamic Law, Muslim Jurists? Wrong interpretation of Islamic Scriptures? or What?
Reply

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*charisma*
08-01-2018, 09:16 AM
Hi Raymann and Welcome to the forum :)

Originally Posted by Raymann
I know many Muslims now but I have never been a real friend with any of them.I find them a little intimidating, they seem to be always in the defensive and ready to jump at you.Whatever I say is quickly responded by a :Can you defend your claim? or Can you prove what you're saying? or can you provide a link to prove it? or that is not in the Quran, or get your facts straight. So you can understand what I mean by being intimidated by some very intense Muslims.
In any discussion or debate, I think we can agree that you need to be able to back up your facts. There's no need to feel intimidated if your intention is to learn and find the truth. If your intention is just to generalize an entire population by prejudice or act "holier than thou" than there's no point in the discussion. Right?

Originally Posted by Raymann
My question and topic today is "Rape in Islamic Countries"
My research indicates that there's a huge flaw in Islamic Countries that allow "Most rape cases to go unpunished" and unreported. Men know they can get away with rape and women wouldn't dare to accuse a man of rape and risking her life by doing so (Adultery)
Is it true? Who's fault is it? Islamic Law, Muslim Jurists? Wrong interpretation of Islamic Scriptures? or What?
We can't lump all islamic countries together as their cultures differ. Islam is not a culture, it's a religion. Rape is a crime in Islam which holds a severe punishment and there's no question about that. Everything wrong in regards to laws against rape can be applied to nearly every country, including the most liberal of them, so I'd say the issues regarding rape in general lie in the hands of all parties involved: The rapist for raping, the victim for not reporting it (however I don't blame them considering the backlash that is prevalent against them), the society for victim-blaming/shaming, the law for not taking it seriously, putting proper laws in place, and not being more vigorous in prevention and protection. Islam puts practices into place that not only prevents and deters rape, but punishes rapists in the most severe manner and protects the victims. There isn't any secular law that provides the same sort of preventative measure against rape nor protection for the victims. "Islamic countries" do not run every Islamic law. They are really only considered "islamic" because the population there identifies as Muslim. The law run in that country itself may very well be against Islam or only adapted in certain cases.
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JustTime
08-01-2018, 02:09 PM
"Rape culture" doesn't exist.
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xboxisdead
08-01-2018, 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by JustTime
"Rape culture" doesn't exist.

Isn't it feminist who decreed all men to be rapist starting from Adam to the last prophet and after that (as they are men also) and every other men who is not a prophet or sahaba and every new baby born boy is 100% rapist by default and criminals and thus rape culture is born? Isn't it also feminist decreed that any men having sex with any women period, whether that women is his wife or not and whether that women have consented to sexual intercourse is still by default rapist and thus again rape culture is born.

You see...in order to prevent a culture of rape and have rape culture what we need to do is do permanent segregate gender separation where women will have their own country be an amazonian society and no males ever born or birthed there, have it run by female government and have a huge sign that says no men or boys allowed. NOW only then you don't have a rape culture. Of course..women raping each other is not considered rape at all and an adult women can have sexual relation with a little girl even if it is not her consent and that is not considered rape. Am I correct?
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Abz2000
08-01-2018, 03:50 PM
When i use the term unlawful - i mean unlawful primarily according to God's law as described in the Quran, and then valid Islamic Jurisprudence.

Rape is a crime, and the punishment is severe - be the perpetrator male or female.
It is not only rape, but it is also unlawful for males and for females to attempt to seduce males or females into unlawful sexual intercourse or to unlawalfully induce sexual arousal - such as by displaying oneself in public with unislamic attire and in an unislamic fashion - such as: flirting without any intention of marrying the individual before sexual contact, asking a non-mahram (search the term) person of the opposite gender who is not the lawful spouse to enter a private place for unlawful interaction, making a person intoxicated via mind altering substances especially with the aim of causing him/her to commit uncharacteristic and unlawful actions....

I hope you can understand the relationship between all of the above actions and how society is kept civilised by Islam - the way of life which Almighty God has enjoined upon mankind, and guided to the best ways of conduct through it for elevating individuals and societies to the highest standard in the progress of humankind.
Base and animalistic acts such as urinating and defacating are done in the toilet where possible, not in public to the best of one's reasonable ability, and without causing distress or harm to other individuals in society - and lawful sexual interactions are strictly kept private and between lawful spouses.

It is easier to understand the harmony and peace of mind created by these simple rules when a person studies and ponders deeply and/or visits a country where the guidelines and laws of Islam are respected to a decent standard, and the people of different regions have different levels of strictness even within Islam - for example, in a western country, it may be normal for a female to wear loose fitting top and trousers with the head covered, in an arab country it may be normal for them to wear the abaya and hijab (head covering - sometimes hats - although hijab means screen and can be interpreted as the attire which screens a female from sexual symbolism), in another country it may be normal for them to wear abaya, hijab, and niqab, in an eastern country it may be normal for them to wear loose shalwar kameez and hijab (though they usually use the abaya and hijab and many the niqab when out shopping etc.

Modesty in clothing was a practice of females of the western countries who identified themselves as "christ"ian not long ago including the utilisation of hats and veils and i still recall regularly seeing females tying a scarf over their heads to their chins when i was little and i'm not yet forty years of age - amazing how electronic media and magazines can make things feel alien in a single generation - the fingerprints of veiling still remain in weddings although it's no longer a veil to conceal modesty - but i know that the usury banking system works by corrupting and dividing families and once selfishness, greed, and individualism become the norm - the tribute money rolls in fast - this slant may appear strange to those who don't ponder much on how societies are groomed and cultured by those in aristocracy and positions of authority.


Here's an example of how christians around Jesus dressed outdoors - look familiar?



Here's how they dressed outdoors in the uk and us in the not so very distant past - feel familiar?

Reply

Raymann
08-01-2018, 05:30 PM
charisma: Thanks for your response

In any discussion or debate, I think we can agree that you need to be able to back up your facts.
Very often I ask questions because I want to know if certain reports are accurate, but the reports are not mine so I can't back them up.
Example:
I read a news article on unreported rape cases on Islamic Countries and quickly ask a known Muslim. Is that true?
He gets defensive and instead of answering the question he proceeds to ask me instead:
Where did you get that from? What are your sources? You cannot trust the mass media and so on.
Would it be so difficult to just answer the question based on what you know and have experienced?

I have to say, your answer was not very different than the one I receive from most Muslims, they gave me a lecture and at the end don't answer the question.
Now you do realize that you didn't answer the question either, don't you?
Do most rape cases go unpunished or unreported on Muslim Countries?
I was expecting a Yes or No or I don't know or maybe in some countries.
I do understand that not all Muslim Countries are alike, that Islam is not a race or culture and that the laws vary from country to country.
But the question remains ...
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xboxisdead
08-01-2018, 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
When i use the term unlawful - i mean unlawful primarily according to God's law as described in the Quran, and then valid Islamic Jurisprudence.

Rape is a crime, and the punishment is death - be the perpetrator male or female.
You say rape is a crime and punishment by death whether the criminal is a male or "a female", right? Observed how I bold it the male and put female in quotation? We all know for a fact in that in society as we know it and you cannot deny it that when a male commit rape he is hanged by his neck but when a female commit rape...especially to little boys of ages 7 and above she is not only not going to be jailed but she is set free and the boy should be considered lucky that a woman had sex with him. ESPECIALLY if that female is attractive. She have immunity to any law as long as she is a female, she have smooth skin, she is beautiful, she have almost an hour glass shaped body, she have feminine voice, sleek long hair and smells of perfume...by those configurations she is immune to any law. She can steal, rape and even murder (if she is good at hiding the fact she committed the murder or even putting blame in somewhere else...preferably the male sex as he is the easy scapegoat as we put blame on Shaitan the male gender is in that same category) and then can go scutt free. Have you not seen the endless double standard laws in USA for example where you see endlessly over and over and over female teachers having sexual relationship with little boys and she does not go to prison at all or few month at that. Not only that...but if that boy impregnates her...he now have to pay child support even if he was raped.

Theory is one thing...I personally would love to see that in practice. If you don't practice what you preach then what you preach holds no value. Don't you agree? If you want true justice then the punishment should be applied for both sexes of the same crime or else you start losing credibility.

Funny though I don't see you screaming and shouting for all these boys who are raped and who have no voice. You do understand boys are like cats or dogs, they are voiceless. They get raped they keep it in and ignore it. Why are there no voices for them? Again..double standard and sexism at the finest. When it comes to rape...female is the only thing that comes in mind.

This man was literally RAPED as a little boy and watch what his mom did when he told her:

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Zafran
08-01-2018, 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Now you do realize that you didn't answer the question either, don't you?
Do most rape cases go unpunished or unreported on Muslim Countries?
I was expecting a Yes or No or I don't know or maybe in some countries.
I do understand that not all Muslim Countries are alike, that Islam is not a race or culture and that the laws vary from country to country.
But the question remains ...
She answered your question well - its a bit like asking are all men in the US like Trump do they all grab women by the............ or are they like Clinton, Weinstein, Polanski and Cosby? Its a loaded question and not a yes and no answer.

I read a news article on unreported rape cases on Islamic Countries and quickly ask a known Muslim. Is that true?
What were you expecting? are you talking about the Muslims in west Africa, or are you talking about the Turks? Do you want to know about Malaysia or Bangladesh? How do you define "Islamic country" here?
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Abz2000
08-02-2018, 05:27 AM
The question itself is based on a twisted, falsely biased, and over generalised accusation and therefore not worthy of being responded to other than with the general clarification of how things should be done in Islam.

A bit like answering baiting questions by an american on "Japan's under-reported rape culture during world war 2"

Or debating the merits and demerits of Jihad based on the premise of the 9/11 false flag.


Islam should be implemented.
Strip club owners and those who make and distribute pornography, and the politicians who back them should be told to close shop and repent to Allah or be tried in court and executed.


60. Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time:
61. They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).
62. (Such was) the practice (approved) of Allah among those who lived aforetime: No change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah.


From Quran, Chapter 33




Rape is a crime which results in severe punishments in Islam.
Unlawful seduction and false accusations of rape also carry severe punishments in Islam.
The details and circumstances are to be looked into with justice to the best of the ability of those in authority and with responsibility.
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Abz2000
08-02-2018, 06:10 AM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
You say rape is a crime and punishment by death whether the criminal is a male or "a female", right? Observed how I bold it the male and put female in quotation? We all know for a fact in that in society as we know it and you cannot deny it that when a male commit rape he is hanged by his neck but when a female commit rape...especially to little boys of ages 7 and above she is not only not going to be jailed but she is set free and the boy should be considered lucky that a woman had sex with him. ESPECIALLY if that female is attractive. She have immunity to any law as long as she is a female, she have smooth skin, she is beautiful, she have almost an hour glass shaped body, she have feminine voice, sleek long hair and smells of perfume...by those configurations she is immune to any law. She can steal, rape and even murder (if she is good at hiding the fact she committed the murder or even putting blame in somewhere else...preferably the male sex as he is the easy scapegoat as we put blame on Shaitan the male gender is in that same category) and then can go scutt free. Have you not seen the endless double standard laws in USA for example where you see endlessly over and over and over female teachers having sexual relationship with little boys and she does not go to prison at all or few month at that. Not only that...but if that boy impregnates her...he now have to pay child support even if he was raped.

Theory is one thing...I personally would love to see that in practice. If you don't practice what you preach then what you preach holds no value. Don't you agree? If you want true justice then the punishment should be applied for both sexes of the same crime or else you start losing credibility.

Funny though I don't see you screaming and shouting for all these boys who are raped and who have no voice. You do understand boys are like cats or dogs, they are voiceless. They get raped they keep it in and ignore it. Why are there no voices for them? Again..double standard and sexism at the finest. When it comes to rape...female is the only thing that comes in mind.

This man was literally RAPED as a little boy and watch what his mom did when he told her:


If you speak of a problem amongst common people that needs to be rectified - unless reporting it to just authorities who know the solution and who have a duty of administering proper justice upon receipt of your information - clarify what the proper conduct should be in Allah's sight. That way everybody listening to you will have an idea as to your intentions for raising the issue.

Some people see things as they are and aren't and say "why?" and "why not?"

Others see things as they should be in Allah's sight and say "let's fix it".

My solution is that obedience to God and His messenger must be established and opposition to God and His messenger must be shunned simultaneously (although the first part of the equation automatically leads to the latter - clarification is sometimes necessary).




Surah 61. The Ranks,

1. Whatever is in the heavens and on earth, let it declare the Praises and Glory of Allah. for He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
2. O you who believe! Why say ye that which you do not?
3. Grievously odious is it in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not.
4. Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.
5. And remember, Moses said to his people: "O my people! why do you vex and insult me, though ye know that I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you?" Then when they went wrong, Allah let their hearts go wrong. For Allah guides not those who are rebellious transgressors.
6. And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"
7. Who doth greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against Allah, even as he is being invited to Islam? And Allah guides not those who do wrong.
8. Their intention is to extinguish Allah's Light (by blowing) with their mouths: But Allah will complete (the revelation of) His Light, even though the rejecters may detest (it).
9. It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans detest (it).
10. O you who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?-
11. That you believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that you strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if you only knew!
12. He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement.
13. And another (favour will He bestow,) which you love,- help from Allah and a speedy victory. So give the Glad Tidings to the Believers.
14. O you who believe! Be you helpers of Allah. As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion rejected: But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.

Quran, Chapter 61
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Anothername
08-02-2018, 07:23 AM
Are people really actually still wondering if they have to be worried of Shariah law in countries whereby their laws are prevalent, and are people still trying to figure out about Islam Muslims although having co-existed peacefully for many years with Muslims at work or in varying social activities for different causes. Why would someone be so overly concerned about researching "Rape culture" in Muslim countries? Why not wonder and place energy with rapes happening in your community. If, you want to migrate to a Muslim country, someday, okay, maybe I guess it's a concern. Anyway,

My research indicates that there's a huge flaw in Islamic Countries that allow "Most rape cases to go unpunished" and unreported. Men know they can get away with rape and women wouldn't dare to accuse a man of rape and risking her life by doing so
If you are speaking about practicing Muslims living in Muslims countries, I sincerely doubt it. These men know better than to victimize anyone, but then I'm referring to those who are practicing the religion in a healthy/correct way. If you are speaking about authorities, leaders who are non-practicing, or sometimes practicing and otherwise sick-minded individuals, I wouldn't be shock if such things do occur. In fact, that's just not for an "Islamic country" but countries anywhere. The examples in the Quran and the Ahaadith explains clearly how women should be approached, in a respectful and kind manner. I think Abz and the sister Charisma answered well enough. I really can't sleep right now and came across this thread, reminds me why I left forums for some times. Ah, well back to studying something of relevance, hope you got some satisfaction & peace OP. Rape isn't acceptable. Does anyone know the narration of the Muslim woman who killed the guy who tried to rape her and it was approved as being a permissible murder by the sahabah?
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Anothername
08-02-2018, 07:40 AM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
Isn't it feminist who decreed all men to be rapist starting from Adam to the last prophet and after that (as they are men also) and every other men who is not a prophet or sahaba and every new baby born boy is 100% rapist by default and criminals and thus rape culture is born? Isn't it also feminist decreed that any men having sex with any women period, whether that women is his wife or not and whether that women have consented to sexual intercourse is still by default rapist and thus again rape culture is born.

You see...in order to prevent a culture of rape and have rape culture what we need to do is do permanent segregate gender separation where women will have their own country be an amazonian society and no males ever born or birthed there, have it run by female government and have a huge sign that says no men or boys allowed. NOW only then you don't have a rape culture. Of course..women raping each other is not considered rape at all and an adult women can have sexual relation with a little girl even if it is not her consent and that is not considered rape. Am I correct?
What are on earth are you about? Men can also rape men if you do such a gender segregation. By the way your information is false.

- - - Updated - - -

^ Ignore that question. I'm probably better off not knowing. Can't delete it.
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*charisma*
08-02-2018, 08:12 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
I have to say, your answer was not very different than the one I receive from most Muslims, they gave me a lecture and at the end don't answer the question.
Now you do realize that you didn't answer the question either, don't you?
Do most rape cases go unpunished or unreported on Muslim Countries?
I was expecting a Yes or No or I don't know or maybe in some countries.
I do understand that not all Muslim Countries are alike, that Islam is not a race or culture and that the laws vary from country to country.
But the question remains ...
The point with my answer is that Islamic law is universal and standard, whereas culture is not. So what you'd find in one Islamic country can vary vastly from another in how rape cases are handled and it would have nothing to do with Islam. Make sense? Ask more specific questions; my answer wouldn't differ from any Christian, American, Mexican, etc. because your questions are very generic.

However from the Islamic countries I've been to (Gulf and Levant), all degrees of assault against women are taken very seriously--From harassment to rape. Do some rape cases go unreported?? Probably, and that happens everywhere.

But to get more accuracy, it's better to ask about specific countries.
Reply

Raymann
08-02-2018, 03:15 PM
Ok, let me be specific.
Lets look at one of the most common rape cases.A man rapes a married woman.
He knows the penalty for rape is death under strict Islamic Law.He also knows she would get stoned to death under strict Islamic Law and probably will refresh her memory about it.
Accusing a man of rape automatically means she is admitting having sex outside of marriage. Under strict Islamic Law that is "Adultery" and is penalized by stoning to death.
1000 out of 1000 Muslim women would not risk their lives by accusing the man.
There is also the problem that a woman's word is worth half the word of a man so she has no chance in the case.
So you see that strict Islamic Law does more to let rape cases go unpunished and unreported than it does to deter rapists from committing this crime.
I know you're going to ask me to prove every single word of what I said but why don't you tell where what I said is wrong.

Thanks for all your answers, I really like this forum and the very opinionated members.
Reply

Raymann
08-02-2018, 04:08 PM
Anothername
Originally Posted by Anothername
Why would someone be so overly concerned about researching "Rape culture" in Muslim countries? Why not wonder and place energy with rapes happening in your community.
That's exactly how all started, investigating rape cases in my own community but I don't want to get out of topic by elaborating on this question.
Reply

*charisma*
08-02-2018, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Ok, let me be specific.
Lets look at one of the most common rape cases.A man rapes a married woman.
He knows the penalty for rape is death under strict Islamic Law.He also knows she would get stoned to death under strict Islamic Law and probably will refresh her memory about it.
Accusing a man of rape automatically means she is admitting having sex outside of marriage. Under strict Islamic Law that is "Adultery" and is penalized by stoning to death.
1000 out of 1000 Muslim women would not risk their lives by accusing the man.
There is also the problem that a woman's word is worth half the word of a man so she has no chance in the case.
So you see that strict Islamic Law does more to let rape cases go unpunished and unreported than it does to deter rapists from committing this crime.
I know you're going to ask me to prove every single word of what I said but why don't you tell where what I said is wrong.

Thanks for all your answers, I really like this forum and the very opinionated members.
Nah, I don't need to ask you for proof since most of what you've stated are very common misconceptions that are heard very often.

Anyways, in your generic scenario, under Islamic law a woman is not convicted of adultery if she is raped. Rape is a different case in which forcible intercourse is involved, not voluntary adultery, so the only person that would be convicted and punished is the man in question. The woman's honor is always protected and fought for.

Originally Posted by Raymann
There is also the problem that a woman's word is worth half the word of a man so she has no chance in the case.
This is concerning something different, not rape.

Originally Posted by Raymann
So you see that strict Islamic Law does more to let rape cases go unpunished and unreported than it does to deter rapists from committing this crime.
If you really studied Islamic law correctly--which you haven't--then you'd see that if it were practiced (which it commonly isn't) the islamic punishment would be a great deterrent against rape, and an islamic environment actually may even eradicate rape. Your conclusion is based on wrongful assumptions of what you believe to be true, so I hope some of your assumptions have been corrected. And again, there are cultural problems when it comes to rape which have absolutely nothing to do with Islam even though the majority population is Muslim. This is probably where many of your misconceptions stem from.
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AabiruSabeel
08-02-2018, 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Lets look at one of the most common rape cases.A man rapes a married woman.
He knows the penalty for rape is death under strict Islamic Law.He also knows she would get stoned to death under strict Islamic Law and probably will refresh her memory about it.
Accusing a man of rape automatically means she is admitting having sex outside of marriage. Under strict Islamic Law that is "Adultery" and is penalized by stoning to death.
Where do you get your misinformation from? The victim is not punished in Islam. See the quote:

Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
In our view the man who rapes a woman, whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a “dowry” like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The punishment is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case. End quote.
Al-Muwatta’, 2/734
https://islamqa.info/en/72338

Read more here: https://islamqa.info/en/158282

Originally Posted by Raymann
So you see that strict Islamic Law does more to let rape cases go unpunished and unreported than it does to deter rapists from committing this crime.
duh

Originally Posted by Raymann
I really like this forum and the very opinionated members.
Look at the irony! You seem more opinionated than anyone else here.
Reply

Raymann
08-02-2018, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
Anyways, in your generic scenario, under Islamic law a woman is not convicted of adultery if she is raped. Rape is a different case in which forcible intercourse is involved, not voluntary adultery, so the only person that would be convicted and punished is the man in question. The woman's honor is always protected and fought for.
Here are two cases that seem to contradict your statement. These women were convicted for having sex outside of marriage even though they claimed they were raped. Adultery is the charge if the woman is married, Fornication if she is single.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgzknXWmAoM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWwMSm8EfS8

How can you explain it?
Now these women are foreigners (westerners) and don't know what any Muslim person knows.
No Muslim women would accuse a rapist, she knows better. It would become just another unreported case.
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Raymann
08-03-2018, 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
Where do you get your misinformation from? The victim is not punished in Islam. See the quote:
I think you are getting worse misinformation than me. The following is a quote from the link you provided:

Rape is essentially zina (fornication or adultery) and is proven in the same way as zina is proven, which is with four witnesses. The punishment is one hundred lashes if the man was a virgin and stoning if he was previously married.
According to my research the four witnesses are only required on an "Adultery" accusation, not on a rape case.
Someone knowledgeable correct me if I'm wrong.
Reply

Alamgir
08-03-2018, 12:59 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Brief introduction, purpose for signing on this forum and question.
Introduction:
I'm a westerner living in New York City who considers himself a mix of Atheist and Agnostic.I grew up in a Catholic family so my morals, culture and personality have been heavily influenced by Christianity.
Purpose:
In the world that I live, Islam is the topic of conversation very often from the past 20 years or so.Before that time I knew very little about Islam and Muslims.I have a passion for researching the topics I find interesting.I get my information from mass media, the internet,(forums, youtube, etc), and electronic books (Quran, Bible, etc)I have heard bad things about the Islamic World, things that are strange and incompatible with the way I live.So I'm here because I want to hear from Muslims themselves if the bad things I hear are misinterpreted or that really Islamic culture is too different from Western culture and therefore incompatible. Can we live side by side? Or sooner or later it is going to explode?
I know many Muslims now but I have never been a real friend with any of them.I find them a little intimidating, they seem to be always in the defensive and ready to jump at you.Whatever I say is quickly responded by a :Can you defend your claim? or Can you prove what you're saying? or can you provide a link to prove it? or that is not in the Quran, or get your facts straight. So you can understand what I mean by being intimidated by some very intense Muslims.
My question and topic today is "Rape in Islamic Countries"
My research indicates that there's a huge flaw in Islamic Countries that allow "Most rape cases to go unpunished" and unreported. Men know they can get away with rape and women wouldn't dare to accuse a man of rape and risking her life by doing so (Adultery)
Is it true? Who's fault is it? Islamic Law, Muslim Jurists? Wrong interpretation of Islamic Scriptures? or What?

Rape is classified as Hirabah, and the punishment for this is laid down in the Quran:

https://quran.com/5/33

"The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter."

(Muhsin Ali Khan English translation of the meaning of the Quran)

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...waId&Id=326548

Ibn Qudaamah said in Al-Mughni, “The woman forced into intercourse is not liable for the hadd of zina according to the majority of scholars. There is no difference between forcing her by physically overcoming her or by making threats to kill her or the like.” [Al-Mughni]

Reply

Raymann
08-03-2018, 01:01 AM
Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
Where do you get your misinformation from? The victim is not punished in Islam. See the quote:
I think you are getting worse misinformation than me. The following is a quote from the link you provided:

Rape is essentially zina (fornication or adultery) and is proven in the same way as zina is proven, which is with four witnesses. The punishment is one hundred lashes if the man was a virgin and stoning if he was previously married.
According to my research the four witnesses are only required on an "Adultery" accusation, not on a rape case.
Someone knowledgeable correct me if I'm wrong.
Reply

AabiruSabeel
08-03-2018, 01:42 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
I think you are getting worse misinformation than me. The following is a quote from the link you provided:

Rape is essentially zina (fornication or adultery) and is proven in the same way as zina is proven, which is with four witnesses. The punishment is one hundred lashes if the man was a virgin and stoning if he was previously married.
According to my research the four witnesses are only required on an "Adultery" accusation, not on a rape case.
Someone knowledgeable correct me if I'm wrong.
Stop trolling.

Did you bother to read it completely? The punishment is for the rapist, not for the victim.
Reply

Raymann
08-03-2018, 01:53 AM
Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
"The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter."
Very nice coming from, The Most Beneficent, The Most Merciful"
Reply

xboxisdead
08-03-2018, 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by Anothername
What are on earth are you about? Men can also rape men if you do such a gender segregation. By the way your information is false.

- - - Updated - - -

^ Ignore that question. I'm probably better off not knowing. Can't delete it.
No...we already know that men can rape men...that is not the point. The gender segregation I was talking about is not to protect men from raping men...I am talking about with feminist ideology that ALL men are rapists from start of Adam until the last human being born on this Earth and that the only way women will be saved from rape is to do complete gender segregation and women live in an Amazon world without male sex period. But what women don't know is that women can also rape women. Proof of that are female teachers who have sex with girls. Don't you consider that in your humble opinion...a rape?

If you are to say no it is not rape because a girl consented to having sex with a female teacher then the next question comes in...why can't that be said when the girl consent to having sex with a male teacher? At least with the second scenario it is not homosexual sex and it is between a male and a female vs the first scenario it is lesbian sex.

And don't worry...I am already making a stink about how boys DO get raped and there are no voices or care for them. What people don't understand is that when boys get raped it warp their mind. It perverts them. They no longer become a suitable marriage partner. In addition such explosive presto will bite us in the long shot under guise of violence, mass shooting, bombs and the victims committing suicides. WORSE they become homosexuals and start raping other boys or men and thus like infected cancer spreading the disease worse than ever before.
Reply

azc
08-03-2018, 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Anothername

That's exactly how all started, investigating rape cases in my own community but I don't want to get out of topic by elaborating on this question.
Will you come with evidences instead of making false allegations basing your so called research...?

E.g.

What is the status of this rape culture in America and Saudi Arab. Will you give a comparative data of these two countries...?

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Raymann
Very nice coming from, The Most Beneficent, The Most Merciful"
5:32-34 ...If any one slew a person - unless it be as punishment for murder or for spreading corruption in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


Now, what you say...?
Reply

*charisma*
08-03-2018, 09:36 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Here are two cases that seem to contradict your statement. These women were convicted for having sex outside of marriage even though they claimed they were raped. Adultery is the charge if the woman is married, Fornication if she is single.
I'm glad you brought up these videos because they are both clear examples of culture not Islam. The UAE does not follow Islamic law. If drinking, clubbing, free mixing, corrupt government are all widely spread as they are in the UAE or any other country, then it is very obvious that there is no concern for anyone's well being whether it is a woman or a man, in regards to rape or otherwise. These are things which are all against Islam and Islamic law. It's a great shame unfortunately. Under Islamic law, not only would the rapists be convicted, but so would law enforcers and anyone tampering with evidence. Did you not notice that even the punishments were not done the way they otherwise would have if it had been done islamically? I'm curious as to why you haven't made that distinction between culture and islam especially when it is clear cut in those videos. Is it simply because when you see Muslims or a Muslim country you immediately assume that we are living under a utopian islamic society? :D Nope, we are veryyy far from that.

Originally Posted by Raymann
I think you are getting worse misinformation than me. The following is a quote from the link you provided:

Rape is essentially zina (fornication or adultery) and is proven in the same way as zina is proven, which is with four witnesses. The punishment is one hundred lashes if the man was a virgin and stoning if he was previously married.
According to my research the four witnesses are only required on an "Adultery" accusation, not on a rape case.
Someone knowledgeable correct me if I'm wrong.
Your research is correct--to an extent.
Four witness are required to prove adultery, not rape. This is very clear in the Quran. Otherwise to claim adultery (not rape) against someone falsely is considered slander which leads to severe punishment. The four witnesses are used in rape cases when there is an allegation of adultery similar to the example you gave above. For example, a girl comes in saying she has been raped, the man is brought in and questioned and replies that it was not rape. At that the man would be required to provide four sound witnesses to prove his case. Rape is a type of adultery from the perspective of the accused, not the accuser/victim because it is still unlawful sex. The punishment is similar to that of adultery, but it's considered worse because a person is victimized as explained in previous posts above. Just like with any case and judicial system, evidence is required to prove something whether it is rape or otherwise. It wouldn't be justice if it were simply a claim, generally speaking. Otherwise a woman could simply say she was raped without clear evidence just to have any man who wronged her punished. Today there is medical evidence, circumstantial evidence, witnesses, etc, that were not available to us previously, so surely these things are used as well now.

Unfortunately every country gives rapists leniency and does not take rape cases seriously. It's actually very difficult to convict rape offenders in western countries which is why the term "rape culture" is coined, so if scientifically, medically, sociologically, politically advanced countries like the US or UK can't get it right with all of the women empowerment and equality movements out there, then surely 2nd and 3rd world countries would not come close, especially when Islamic law is not followed. If it's not news to you yet after your research, the justice system is corrupt in the most advanced countries and favors the rapists over the victims.
Reply

Futuwwa
08-03-2018, 10:39 AM
Yes, most cases of rape go unpunished in Islamic countries. Just like absolutely everywhere else.

Pretty much every Muslim would agree that rape is a severe crime that should be punished severely, without recognizing any kind of extenuating circumstances. Yet, Islamic societies aren't magically immune to all the systemic reasons that exist elsewhere that make perpetrators get away with it.

There are, in places in the Islamic world, society-specific causes that lead to it being so though. Some are corrupt dictatorships with dysfunctional legal systems, which makes it dangerous to accuse someone who is in a position of privilege and power. In other places, there are harmful popular misconceptions about how "good girls don't get raped", which leads to women who do get raped to doubt themselves and be discouraged to press charges for fear of harming their reputations.

As for your specific cause though, no. That accusers bear the burden of proof is pretty universally recognized, but a not-guilty verdict for rape doesn't result in an automatic guilty verdict for adultery. I guess there are instances where that's how things have gone down, but you'll be hard pressed to find any Muslim, let alone a scholar of Islamic law, who'd say that's how it's supposed to be.

Is that to-the-point enough for you?
Reply

Raymann
08-03-2018, 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
I'm curious as to why you haven't made that distinction between culture and islam especially when it is clear cut in those videos. Is it simply because when you see Muslims or a Muslim country you immediately assume that we are living under a utopian islamic society?
I do understand the difference between Islamic culture and Islam but in this case I'm only trying to find out if my research is true regardless of the type or shade of Islamic Law applied in each Islamic Country.
My research finds that "most rape cases in Islamic Countries are unpunished or unreported"
I'm not going to blame Islam on it because I'm sure Islam didn't intend for this to happen but it is happening.
Those who expect me to provide accurate data on the case are going to be disappointed because there is no data about unreported rape cases. This is the case everywhere not only in Muslim Countries.
The problem is that there is a real suspicion that this is much more prevalent in Islamic Countries because of Islamic Laws (whatever the shade of it in use)Women are more reluctant to accuse a rapist, men are not afraid of getting caught, etc.
In the west women have absolutely nothing to fear by accusing a man of rape so there are more reported cases regardless of the outcome of the cases.

This is a response from a Muslim in another Forum, he believes the problem "exists" and blame the Muslims Religious Leaders:

"The only way to correct this situation is to challenge it openly. As long as you would have a religious leadership that ignores the reality you do not have any hope to change it. Keep on talking about it and raising this even if it means that you are frowned upon by such leaders."

Yes sir, I'm on it.
Reply

Alamgir
08-03-2018, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Very nice coming from, The Most Beneficent, The MostMerciful"
First you cry when you falsely believe rapists get no punishment in Islam, and now that I've shown you the punishment for rapists you whinge that it's too severe.

Stop being a baby. Putting people in prison clearly isn't working judging by the amount of rape that goes on in Darul Kufr.

This punishment is a mercy upon us, the potential victims of such animals.
Reply

*charisma*
08-03-2018, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
My research finds that "most rape cases in Islamic Countries are unpunished or unreported"
If they do, it's due to culture not religion. This is not to say that there aren't any problems--absolutely issues do exist--but they do not stem from religion. If you included culture into this topic, there'd be much more to say and put blame on, and I'd suggest your research start there.

Originally Posted by Raymann
The problem is that there is a real suspicion that this is much more prevalent in Islamic Countries because of Islamic Laws (whatever the shade of it in use)Women are more reluctant to accuse a rapist, men are not afraid of getting caught, etc.
In the west women have absolutely nothing to fear by accusing a man of rape so there are more reported cases regardless of the outcome of the cases.
This is absolutely untrue. In fact a very small percentage of rape cases actually go to trial in the west, and when they do there is even a smaller chance that the criminal is convicted. To state that women have "nothing to fear" is very ignorant on your part because they face shame, prejudice, and apathy from the justice system more often than not, and after everything, the rapist is not convicted nor is he taken to trial. He is left free to roam. I'm positive if a rape victim heard you make such a comparison they'd be extremely offended and hurt. No matter where rape occurs it may very well hold the same type of stigma regardless of location. Since this is a universal problem, I'd say that perhaps a woman in the US would have different fears than a woman in the Middle East, but both fears may prevent them from reporting rape. Does that make sense? So while I understand that you are trying to find the root of the problem or at least where it is facilitated in Islamic countries, rape is much more prevalent in the west than it is in Islamic countries and there is less of an effort under that judicial system than there is under Islamic law to prosecute the offenders.

You also can't really disregard the influence of religious power in Islamic countries and paint them with the same brush. For example Saudi Arabia is VERY different than Lebanon. The way that rape cases are handled in Lebanon are probably very different to how rape cases in Saudi are handled. Their laws differ, their culture differs, and their society differs. So how would that affect rape cases? Well in Lebanon for example, citizens are allowed to drink alcohol, so alcohol can be a factor in a rape case making it more complicated. In Saudi Arabia however, intoxicants of all types are illegal, so that would remove this obstacle out of the way when convicting a rapist since both the woman and rapist would be sound of mind. Rape cases can become extremely complex in general, so in countries where there are less influences of sexual misconduct, the conviction of rape becomes easier.
Reply

xboxisdead
08-03-2018, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
If they do, it's due to culture not religion. This is not to say that there aren't any problems--absolutely issues do exist--but they do not stem from religion. If you included culture into this topic, there'd be much more to say and put blame on, and I'd suggest your research start there.



This is absolutely untrue. In fact a very small percentage of rape cases actually go to trial in the west, and when they do there is even a smaller chance that the criminal is convicted. To state that women have "nothing to fear" is very ignorant on your part because they face shame, prejudice, and apathy from the justice system more often than not, and after everything, the rapist is not convicted nor is he taken to trial. He is left free to roam. I'm positive if a rape victim heard you make such a comparison they'd be extremely offended and hurt. No matter where rape occurs it may very well hold the same type of stigma regardless of location. Since this is a universal problem, I'd say that perhaps a woman in the US would have different fears than a woman in the Middle East, but both fears may prevent them from reporting rape. Does that make sense? So while I understand that you are trying to find the root of the problem or at least where it is facilitated in Islamic countries, rape is much more prevalent in the west than it is in Islamic countries and there is less of an effort under that judicial system than there is under Islamic law to prosecute the offenders.

You also can't really disregard the influence of religious power in Islamic countries and paint them with the same brush. For example Saudi Arabia is VERY different than Lebanon. The way that rape cases are handled in Lebanon are probably very different to how rape cases in Saudi are handled. Their laws differ, their culture differs, and their society differs. So how would that affect rape cases? Well in Lebanon for example, citizens are allowed to drink alcohol, so alcohol can be a factor in a rape case making it more complicated. In Saudi Arabia however, intoxicants of all types are illegal, so that would remove this obstacle out of the way when convicting a rapist since both the woman and rapist would be sound of mind. Rape cases can become extremely complex in general, so in countries where there are less influences of sexual misconduct, the conviction of rape becomes easier.
Can I say that if Muslims where not just Muslims by name and where Muslims like the time of sahaba and truly and severely feared Allah (Subahanau Wa Talaa) to the point that they feel and almost see the afterlife in front of them and be at the court of Allah right this very second while doing the action the amount of rape, murder, backbiting, slander, out of wedlock relation, ------- children, music, pornography, etc all would disappear to 0% if every human had this in him or her. I would go as far as say that all men would wear and mimic the prophet in dress code and interaction and all the women would mimic the best of the woman at that time in dress code and interaction. You will find the police officer and jail cell will be almost empty and fiddling his thump. But these issues will only worsen when our hearts be more and more and more and more attached to worldly affairs and less thinking of the afterlife and the consequences of our lives. When we push our children to only achieve bachelor and master degree in universities and get high paying job and have professional job positions and we consider this success instead of pushing our children to be best in Islam and Iman and give good characters to them. When two parents are out there making the money instead of TWO parents are raising the children...don't be surprised that scenarios like rape, murder, etc will be a common natural flow in society. How many parents observe exactly what their children are watching and what they playing?

Just something to ponder ..... ^o)
Reply

Anothername
08-04-2018, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
No...we already know that men can rape men...that is not the point. The gender segregation I was talking about is not to protect men from raping men...I am talking about with feminist ideology that ALL men are rapists from start of Adam until the last human being born on this Earth and that the only way women will be saved from rape is to do complete gender segregation and women live in an Amazon world without male sex period. But what women don't know is that women can also rape women. Proof of that are female teachers who have sex with girls. Don't you consider that in your humble opinion...a rape?

If you are to say no it is not rape because a girl consented to having sex with a female teacher then the next question comes in...why can't that be said when the girl consent to having sex with a male teacher? At least with the second scenario it is not homosexual sex and it is between a male and a female vs the first scenario it is lesbian sex.

And don't worry...I am already making a stink about how boys DO get raped and there are no voices or care for them. What people don't understand is that when boys get raped it warp their mind. It perverts them. They no longer become a suitable marriage partner. In addition such explosive presto will bite us in the long shot under guise of violence, mass shooting, bombs and the victims committing suicides. WORSE they become homosexuals and start raping other boys or men and thus like infected cancer spreading the disease worse than ever before.
The first thing I'll want to remind, genders aside, is that we both are from different places and experiences. However, it seems our thinking are a bit similar, to the point that I also recognise somethings to be divisive rather unifying. To be reactionary rather than really helping. And within this perspective you will also find individuals in different movements to have their own agendas, whether it comes from a place of aggression or compassion. The feminist movement is one such area, different people saying different things changing over time even disagreeing with each other. But, essentially, I agree with you, in recognizing human rights irregardless of gender, transgenger, sexuality, ages etc.

It's all, I'm reminded recently, stemming from having a pure spirituality. That's what we always need to work on. That's when there will be less victimization, abuse and more healing and help taking place, may Allah guide us to be such people and be with those who are this way. Ameen
Reply

xboxisdead
08-04-2018, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Anothername
But, essentially, I agree with you, in recognizing human rights irregardless of gender, transgenger, sexuality, ages etc.

It's all, I'm reminded recently, stemming from having a pure spirituality. That's what we always need to work on. That's when there will be less victimization, abuse and more healing and help taking place, may Allah guide us to be such people and be with those who are this way. Ameen
:D:D:D:D
Reply

Raymann
08-05-2018, 10:09 AM
This is absolutely untrue.
Ok, let's see.

a very small percentage of rape cases actually go to trial in the west, and when they do there is even a smaller chance that the criminal is convicted
In other words, a lot of cases are reported but the percentage of trials is low and convictions even lower.
Fine, by people reporting the cases at least we know what's going on.
We know that in Sweden, Norway, Germany, Denmark, France and others the rape cases are skyrocketing in the past few years and thanks to the victims by coming forward and reporting the cases now we know that most of those rapes are being committed by Muslims.
Unfortunately that doesn't happen in Muslim Countries where the number of reported rapes is either hidden or cases are just not reported.

To state that women have "nothing to fear" (in the west) is very ignorant on your part
So you're saying that the psychological damage (shame, prejudice, apathy, stigma) is somehow equivalent to the possibility of being stoned to death, have your back lashed or end up in jail ?.

I'm positive if a rape victim heard you make such a comparison they'd be extremely offended and hurt.
Well, who is the ignorant then? We should show them a stoning execution to see what a Muslim woman faces when accusing a man.
.... but both fears may prevent them from reporting rape.
True, but somehow women in the west are being brave and doing a better job by showing up against the rapists.

rape is much more prevalent in the west than it is in Islamic countries and there is less of an effort under that judicial system than there is under Islamic law to prosecute the offenders.
Wow, well if you base that statement on data provided by Muslim Countries I agree, but I'm not that naive.

I was reading a compilation of data about all sorts of crimes in the Muslim World. It is a few year old but it shows what I was pointing out about rapes in Europe lately. Might be a little scary to wake up and see reality when you live in a pink colored world.

https://carm.org/islamic-muslim-stat...a-isis-welfare

and another one so you don't think I'm making staff up.

https://www.thenational.ae/world/mus...blems-1.618038
Reply

*charisma*
08-05-2018, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
In other words, a lot of cases are reported but the percentage of trials is low and convictions even lower.
Fine, by people reporting the cases at least we know what's going on.
We know that in Sweden, Norway, Germany, Denmark, France and others the rape cases are skyrocketing in the past few years and thanks to the victims by coming forward and reporting the cases now we know that most of those rapes are being committed by Muslims.
Unfortunately that doesn't happen in Muslim Countries where the number of reported rapes is either hidden or cases are just not reported.
No, in other words, many women don't even bother reporting it because they already know that nothing will happen if they do and in fact they will get ridiculed and shamed for doing so. In other words, women in the west feel shamed and ridiculed due to problems in the judicial system whereas muslim women may feel the same due to problems from culture. Has nothing to do with raped women getting stoned, executed, lashed or whatever your imagination is conjuring up. In what scenario would a woman's rape case be against her in a Muslim country? Let me know if you can figure that out.

Originally Posted by Raymann
We know that in Sweden, Norway, Germany, Denmark, France and others the rape cases are skyrocketing in the past few years and thanks to the victims by coming forward and reporting the cases now we know that most of those rapes are being committed by Muslims.
Unfortunately that doesn't happen in Muslim Countries where the number of reported rapes is either hidden or cases are just not reported.
Sorry to bust your bubble, but this is also false. Sweden's rape stats have remained nearly the same for the past few years actually. Increases have been noted in the UK and Wales, but not due to Muslims; Germany's stats are often based on a very different definition of rape because they include all types of sexual abuse, and again not Muslim driven. I could go on and on, but definitely your claims are based on false and intolerant right-wing media reports, especially those that started appearing after the influx of refugees in the past couple of years. Now if you actually want a discussion based on real research and facts, then please enlighten me with real facts and research and not hearsay and bigotry. At the very least google does a good job, but there are also free public libraries and research databases you can utilize whenever you read something so ridiculous.

Secondly, I'd assume by your logic that if Muslims were in the west there'd be less rape cases committed there considering women can easily report it without any fears right?? SO then how is it rape cases in the west have increased instead of it decreasing?? Illogical.

However, I'd love some real statistics for your claims based on actual evidence that state otherwise.

Originally Posted by Raymann
Unfortunately that doesn't happen in Muslim Countries where the number of reported rapes is either hidden or cases are just not reported.
I'm sure there are many unreported rape cases in different muslim countries, but again the question remains as to WHY they go unreported, and I've already stated that it's not due to islamic law. So how about I give you the special task of researching the statistics of two different Muslim countries and the possible reasons of why rape cases go unreported. Have fun :D

Originally Posted by Raymann
So you're saying that the psychological damage (shame, prejudice, apathy, stigma) is somehow equivalent to the possibility of being stoned to death, have your back lashed or end up in jail ?.
Nope because I was drawing parallels not distinctions. If stoning or any of that sort was a factor I'd have mentioned it.

Let me ask you the following:

Which Muslim countries practice Islamic law?
Of those, how many use stoning as a punishment?
Of those, what crimes lead to getting stoned?
and of those stoning cases how many are women who were raped or who "accused a man" of rape??
and if you get that far, describe the conditions that the women were in that convicted them as criminals deserving of punishment and not as victims.

Let's see what you come up with, please show me your sources as well. Maybe I could learn a thing or two :)

Originally Posted by Raymann
True, but somehow women in the west are being brave and doing a better job by showing up against the rapists.
This has nothing to do with bravery. Where was the bravery while getting raped? Or while drinking with the rapist? Or dancing with him? Or flirting with him? Or moving in with him? Again, don't insult the victims please. Let me ask you this, why do women report rape in the first place? It's not because of "bravery" it's because they believe or hope that justice will be served, and unfortunately it rarely if ever is. So whether they report it or not WHATS THE POINT? They get Stats, but then what?? Nothing happens. NOthing has been happening for years. Or is it a big topic now because Muslims are invading your lands??

Originally Posted by Raymann
Wow, well if you base that statement on data provided by Muslim Countries I agree, but I'm not that naive.

I was reading a compilation of data about all sorts of crimes in the Muslim World. It is a few year old but it shows what I was pointing out about rapes in Europe lately. Might be a little scary to wake up and see reality when you live in a pink colored world.

https://carm.org/islamic-muslim-stat...a-isis-welfare

and another one so you don't think I'm making staff up.

https://www.thenational.ae/world/mus...blems-1.618038
You are naive if you believe those websites. One is a Christian apologetics site (islamophobic) and has nothing to back up its sources, while the other article says absolutely nothing about rape and doesn't even state the name of the study done. Nothing about rape even shows up when searching on the database that the study is allegedly from. Again please find credible sources. I mean you could at least meet me half way with this discussion when you post these things.

Out of curiosity, what is your end goal here? Are you going to eradicate rape?? If so, it's a male issue..maybe start with eradicating them ;D
Reply

xboxisdead
08-05-2018, 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
No, in other words, many women don't even bother reporting it because they already know that nothing will happen if they do and in fact they will get ridiculed and shamed for doing so. In other words, women in the west feel shamed and ridiculed due to problems in the judicial system whereas muslim women may feel the same due to problems from culture. Has nothing to do with raped women getting stoned, executed, lashed or whatever your imagination is conjuring up. In what scenario would a woman's rape case be against her in a Muslim country? Let me know if you can figure that out.



Sorry to bust your bubble, but this is also false. Sweden's rape stats have remained nearly the same for the past few years actually. Increases have been noted in the UK and Wales, but not due to Muslims; Germany's stats are often based on a very different definition of rape because they include all types of sexual abuse, and again not Muslim driven. I could go on and on, but definitely your claims are based on false and intolerant right-wing media reports, especially those that started appearing after the influx of refugees in the past couple of years. Now if you actually want a discussion based on real research and facts, then please enlighten me with real facts and research and not hearsay and bigotry. At the very least google does a good job, but there are also free public libraries and research databases you can utilize whenever you read something so ridiculous.

Secondly, I'd assume by your logic that if Muslims were in the west there'd be less rape cases committed there considering women can easily report it without any fears right?? SO then how is it rape cases in the west have increased instead of it decreasing?? Illogical.

However, I'd love some real statistics for your claims based on actual evidence that state otherwise.


P.S "Funny though...I hear so many non-Muslim women fantasize of being raped! They have...'desires' to be raped.....I am thinking we human being is one bag of issues :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:"
I'm sure there are many unreported rape cases in different muslim countries, but again the question remains as to WHY they go unreported, and I've already stated that it's not due to islamic law. So how about I give you the special task of researching the statistics of two different Muslim countries and the possible reasons of why rape cases go unreported. Have fun :D



Nope because I was drawing parallels not distinctions. If stoning or any of that sort was a factor I'd have mentioned it.

Let me ask you the following:

Which Muslim countries practice Islamic law?
Of those, how many use stoning as a punishment?
Of those, what crimes lead to getting stoned?
and of those stoning cases how many are women who were raped or who "accused a man" of rape??
and if you get that far, describe the conditions that the women were in that convicted them as criminals deserving of punishment and not as victims.

Let's see what you come up with, please show me your sources as well. Maybe I could learn a thing or two :)



This has nothing to do with bravery. Where was the bravery while getting raped? Or while drinking with the rapist? Or dancing with him? Or flirting with him? Or moving in with him? Again, don't insult the victims please. Let me ask you this, why do women report rape in the first place? It's not because of "bravery" it's because they believe or hope that justice will be served, and unfortunately it rarely if ever is. So whether they report it or not WHATS THE POINT? They get Stats, but then what?? Nothing happens. NOthing has been happening for years. Or is it a big topic now because Muslims are invading your lands??



You are naive if you believe those websites. One is a Christian apologetics site (islamophobic) and has nothing to back up its sources, while the other article says absolutely nothing about rape and doesn't even state the name of the study done. Nothing about rape even shows up when searching on the database that the study is allegedly from. Again please find credible sources. I mean you could at least meet me half way with this discussion when you post these things.

Out of curiosity, what is your end goal here? Are you going to eradicate rape?? If so, it's a male issue..maybe start with eradicating them ;D
I assure you that rape can be done by a woman also. If a woman of adult age have sexual sex with a 10 year old boy and he says no and she pushes and she kept pushing that is rape. Women can rape too. Be it is true that lots of rapes are committed by men..not denying that women can rape as well. Eradicating all men too is also injustice because not all men are rapist. You know how to lessen rape or put it at minimum level (never said it can be eradicated for life..because so is murder cannot be eradicated for life, so is poisoning someone cannot be eradicated for..so is psychological and emotional and verbal abuse can never be eradicated for life...so is disease, vertigo, heart problems, other calamities can never be eradicated for life....), FOLLOW ISLAMIC LAW 100% AND IMPLEMENT IT 100% to a point of even committing zina you get slashed and whipped or even if you so steal one digital application or steal one apple you get your hand cut off...you will be surprised at how close to crime free we will become. FEAR of your creator should be sufficient to put evil at 1% bay. Don't you agree? HECK we can go as far as backbiting (men and women crime too) is considered like eating the flesh of your brother and as thus if we want 100% implementation..backbiting should get the same crime as eating the flesh of your brother..meaning lots of women will be in prison too. WANT TO IMPLEMENT IT 100% also...slander and false allegation should have the crime of death whether that be a man or a woman.

RAPE is one thing...but you are focusing on one thing when other EVIL acts as equally bad come in act but come with different shade.

P.S "Funny though how I read and hear about so many non-Muslim fantasize of being raped! I start to believe we humans in general are just walking bag of issues :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: "
Reply

Futuwwa
08-05-2018, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
We know that in Sweden, Norway, Germany, Denmark, France and others the rape cases are skyrocketing in the past few years and thanks to the victims by coming forward and reporting the cases now we know that most of those rapes are being committed by Muslims.
u wot m8?

Every serious criminologist (as in, an actual academic, not a hack trying to validate a preconceived notion) knows that changes in recorded rape numbers can either be due to actual changes in the frequency of rape, or changes in reporting rate, and that determining which it is is extremely difficult. You must be some kind of criminological genius if you have found a way to do it reliably. Or, you're just a troll spouting Islamophobic talking points as fact. You disappoint me, I thought you were here for serious discussion. Well baited, I suppose. Now, sod off.
Reply

Abz2000
08-05-2018, 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
u wot m8?

Every serious criminologist (as in, an actual academic, not a hack trying to validate a preconceived notion) knows that changes in recorded rape numbers can either be due to actual changes in the frequency of rape, or changes in reporting rate. You must be some kind of criminological genius if you have found a way to do it reliably. Or, you're just a troll spouting Islamophobic talking points as fact. You disappoint me, I thought you were here for serious discussion. Well baited, I suppose. Now, sod off.
Anybody observing the situation can see clearly that the frequency of sexual expression in public, strip clubs and visitation of strip clubs, the production of pornography and its consumption, and the visitation of nighclubs replete with increasing lewdness and alcohol consumption - are all increasing in non-Muslim majority countries, and Muslims have nothing to do with it.


See also:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/mar/19/gender.uk
Reply

BeTheChange
08-05-2018, 11:04 PM
If one really wants to talk about unreported rape crimes you need to start off by looking at the music industry. It is full of cases! Lots of powerful rich men (i must add women otherwise brother xboxisdead will correct me no doubt :D Alhamdulilah) who commit horrific violent acts but buy people's silence.

Waste of time looking at who to blame. Look at solutions and preventative measures.
Reply

xboxisdead
08-05-2018, 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by BeTheChange
If one really wants to talk about unreported rape crimes you need to start off by looking at the music industry. It is full of cases! Lots of powerful rich men (i must add women otherwise brother xboxisdead will correct me no doubt :D Alhamdulilah) who commit horrific violent acts but buy people's silence.

Waste of time looking at who to blame. Look at solutions and preventative measures.
NOT ONLY YOU ARE 100% correct but let me add to this.

0) BRING ISLAM TO NON-MUSLIM WORLD and you will see what happens. Just watch!

A) STOP REMOVING FATHERS FROM HOMES. LET THEM do their freaking job...YEACH.

FATHERS - PROTECTOR AND PROVIDER (THEY ALSO TURN BOYS INTO MEN. GOOD CITIZEN MEN who excel in school which drops on crimes, suicide, etc)

Please...let FATHERS do their freaking job and stop telling the world thaat men and fathers are unnecessary and we don't need them and that a woman can be a dad and a mom at the same time. STOOOOP it.

B) STOP having sex outside of marriage and bringing children from out of wedlock homes. PLEASE...PLEASE...PLEASE. Have children only in confinement of marriage.

C) STOP making it less attractive for men to get married by having such anti-male laws and make it instead appealing for men to wanting to get married and having children so he can play his role of...jeeze...I dunno.....PROVIDER AND PROTECTOR (especially for his daughters - rolls eyes - )

D) STOP LETTING CHILDREN (especially girls) wear provocative clothing when they go outside. The amount of little children...effeminate boys and girls who go out in the most SEXUAL attires....yeach!! Not only the non-Muslim country breeds rape culture or so what you call it..but it breeds child rapist and pedophile.

E) DO NOT HAVE BOYFRIENDS AND GIRLFRIENDS. If the guy want to have sex...HE GET MARRIED TO THE GIRL and THE FATHER is at the picture...MEN know their own nature well and he can filter out the bad apples from the good ones.

F) STOP HAVING WOMEN SOLD AS A SEXUAL COMMODITY IN TVS AND VIDEO GAMES. I am so bored now looking at women on TV I am like...yaawwn. Your society is going to breed homosexuality at the rate your headed.


Ever wondered why in Muslim countries in TV's you see almost all men in TV and even in voice to speech in computers? So that there will be always gender opposite attraction between the sexes and that men will do whatever it takes to shape himself up to be with a woman. Bombarded him non-stop with sexual images, female voices, female on TV and you will breed disaster. NO man would want to get married. Why? He have pornography which will breed rape desires. He will be surrounded with so many women outside at work and places, laughing joke, seeing women almost walking naked in street...why get married? You don't need to get married. There is always fresh meat (sorry to say) walking in the street I can enjoy and admire...I don't need some old woman in my home who lost her beauty to look for attraction. THAT IS EXACTLY what the NON-MUSLIM world have done and all blame goes ON YOU!! Don't come here weeping for rape culture when you..YOU non-muslim did it to yourself.


Hehe...funny how it is easy to target men as evil



Brand new story..2018 fresh ahah!
Reply

Raymann
08-07-2018, 02:52 AM
Let's refocus here.
You want to know what is my end goal here.
I stated it in my introduction, I want to know if the bad things I hear about the Islamic World are truth.I don't want to hear it from bias sources or islamophobes but from Muslims themselves.I know Muslims (or any other culture) wouldn't talk bad against their own culture so I'll have to read between the lines.

I'm not here to pass the SATs on Islamic Culture, Politics nor the Judicial System under Islamic Countries.

I stated that in many European countries rape cases committed primarily by Muslim Immigrants have skyrocketed.
You denied the whole thing, I think.

So this never happened? The rapists didn't rape anymore? Was it a one time only for them? Once a criminal always a criminal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm5SYxRXHsI

Sweden, where according to your sources everything is fine or at least is not getting worst.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okluybxKqRU

They claim that the increase is so sharp they don't have enough police to face the problem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8EwVnQZTlE

What Muslims think about Western women.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe6ODnehj1Y

Here you got me all confused:

"Where was the bravery while getting raped? Or while drinking with the rapist? Or dancing with him? Or flirting with him? Or moving in with him? "
So you agree with those Muslims who think it's the woman's fault if they get raped?
Either they dressed inappropriately or behaved like ----s and since we are animals we couldn't stop the urge of raping them.

In conclusion: what is your take on the rape epidemic in Europe which is in large attributed to Muslim Immigrants?
For a second I thought that you denied the whole thing. Or was it a partial denial ? Muslims have nothing to do with it?
To say that you're in denial is the understatement of the year.

I guess I'll keep reading between the lines.
Reply

*charisma*
08-07-2018, 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Let's refocus here.
You want to know what is my end goal here.
I stated it in my introduction, I want to know if the bad things I hear about the Islamic World are truth.I don't want to hear it from bias sources or islamophobes but from Muslims themselves.I know Muslims (or any other culture) wouldn't talk bad against their own culture so I'll have to read between the lines.

I'm not here to pass the SATs on Islamic Culture, Politics nor the Judicial System under Islamic Countries.

I stated that in many European countries rape cases committed primarily by Muslim Immigrants have skyrocketed.
You denied the whole thing, I think.

So this never happened? The rapists didn't rape anymore? Was it a one time only for them? Once a criminal always a criminal.
If you're not going to take the discussion seriously and actually look up FACTS not hearsay, then there's no point in this discussion.

All of the video's you've shown have absolutely no relevancy to this topic. I need an actual graph, table, research that says explicitly what you want proven ie. that MUSLIMS are the reason that rapes have increased. Because all of my research even the ones that were included in the video don't make the same comparisons. Muslims have lived in these countries long before the refugee crisis and considering white supremacy and islamophobia on the rise, then any type of negative correlations against muslims will be made to remove them or prevent more from arriving, "oh there's a rise in sexual crimes?? MUST BE THE MOZLEM IMMIGRANTS!" when there's absolutely no proof of it. They throw in a few stories of women who were victimized under dubious circumstances and they allow the viewer to make the final conclusion. That's how media works bud. Now this is not to say that crimes are not being committed by immigrants if any are, but that there's no legitimate source that says they are the actual CAUSE in rising rape. With that being said, immigrant doesn't equal muslim. Victims wouldn't know whether they are muslim or not unless victimizers actually divulge that information, right? So again, I need real research, not youtube, not individual claims, not right-wing christian islamophobic articles. Otherwise there's no point in this discussion because you're the one here to learn, and if you legitimately want to learn then search for the TRUTH, not what you want to hear just to validate your assumptions or prejudice.

Originally Posted by Raymann
So you agree with those Muslims who think it's the woman's fault if they get raped?
Either they dressed inappropriately or behaved like ----s and since we are animals we couldn't stop the urge of raping them.
The point was that it isn't about bravery. How'd that fly over your head? You were comparing victims and victim blaming which isn't right.

If you want to hear what Muslims think about their own culture, then just ask us about our CULTURE. I totally clarified that for you a few posts back. You haven't done that. See here
If they do, it's due to culture not religion. This is not to say that there aren't any problems--absolutely issues do exist--but they do not stem from religion. If you included culture into this topic, there'd be much more to say and put blame on, and I'd suggest your research start there.
I'm sure we have tons to say about CULTURE and I don't mind talking about it even the negative stuff. But for the record, "MUSLIM culture" isn't a thing. Like what's "Atheist culture" or "Christian culture"...those things do not exist. Although it seems you want to lump everything together as if it's one big huge country, which is wrong and won't get you anywhere. If you want to make a blatant claim then at least have the decency to back it up with facts, that is all I ask.

You still haven't done any of the research I've asked in the previous post. So I'll let this be my last post until we get relevant information to this topic :)

Originally Posted by Raymann
I stated it in my introduction, I want to know if the bad things I hear about the Islamic World are truth.
Since you've seen how the sources you've provided are unreliable, I think you can make the smart conclusion that they're not truthful.
If opinions are what shape truth for you, then you can find plenty of that online (like you have already). I don't follow opinion nor do I let that shape my views or my world. :)
Reply

Futuwwa
08-07-2018, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
In conclusion: what is your take on the rape epidemic in Europe which is in large attributed to Muslim Immigrants?
For a second I thought that you denied the whole thing. Or was it a partial denial ? Muslims have nothing to do with it?
To say that you're in denial is the understatement of the year.
My take on it is that you are asking loaded questions, and expecting the discussion to be based on premises that effectively predetermine the outcome. Something you wouldn't do if you are serious about getting to the truth, rather than looking for validation of preconceived notions.
Reply

Abz2000
08-07-2018, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
My take on it is that you are asking loaded questions, and expecting the discussion to be based on premises that effectively predetermine the outcome. Something you wouldn't do if you are serious about getting to the truth, rather than looking for validation of preconceived notions.
My duty is to walk on Allah :swt: 's path in obedience until He informs me that my task is over - a person has no right to put falsehood-loaded obstacles on that path, yet even then, i must do what is necessary to be able to continue walking on the straight path, so if i see any rubbish dropped by an ignorant - i might brush it aside or pick it up in order to throw it in the bin for the convenience of others who walk on the path alongside and after me, if however i notice an idiot relentlessly bringing more falsehood filled rubbish and dumping it on the path with the aim of beleaguring me, i will turn my focus on the idiot throwing falsehood on the path and force him to walk on the straight path if i can, prevent him from throwing rubbish filled falsehood on the path if i can't make him walk straight, exhort others to assist me in making him walk on the straight path or preventing him from falsehood if i make him walk straight or prevent him myself, and hate the crime and sit there praying to Allah :swt: if none of us can walk upon the straight path properly any more...and that's the weakest stage - like the case of the youth of Surah al Kahf, and the people who pray to Allah :swt: on the mount with Isa :as: due to the corruption of the brain-dead gog and magog.


This individual (op) appears to me to be pushing skewed talking points based on false premises with the aim of confusing people and leading them astray from the truth, and not with the aim of enlightening people.
everyone think for yourselves.





I have a question for op:

try to imagine that a circle is a square, a square is a triangle, a triangle is a pentagon, a pentagon is a hexagon, a hexagon is an octagon, an octagon is a ceiling fan, a ceiling fan is a mobile phone, a mobile phone is a giraffe, a giraffe is a volvo, a volvo is a mercedes benz, a mercedez benz is a cup of tea, a cup of tea is a cup of coffe, a cup of coffee is a doner kebab, a doner kebab is a ligh bulb, a light bulb is a jet propelled motorbike, a jet propelled motorbike is planet jupiter ....... ad infinitum..... what would that ultimately make you?

the only reason i ask is because some people say so even though i know it's nonsense, please answer, and please spend a few hours of each of your limited days answering in order to enlighten us.






1. A.L.M.

2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

4. And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.

5. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

6. As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

7. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

8. Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.

9. Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!

10. In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).

11. When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"

12. Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.

13. When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.

14. When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We (were) only jesting."

15. Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).

16. These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,

From Quran, Chapter 2
Reply

anatolian
08-07-2018, 04:27 PM
Even if the claim, the ratio of muslims who commit the rape crimes in the western countries is more than non muslims in the tecent years, is true, we still cannot relate it to Islam or muslim idendity. You must consider all effects including culture, tradition, socio economic and psycho-sociologic situation etc.
Reply

Anothername
08-08-2018, 05:48 AM
I discovered this article, maybe it will help. Merely sharing the article, don't want to debate with anyone on this.

https://abuaminaelias.com/there-is-n...rape-in-islam/


In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Islam has forbidden rape and sexual abuse since the time of the Prophet until today. Allegations by anti-Muslim activists are only buttressed by the appalling criminal behavior of terrorist groups acting in the name of Islam, who use rape as a weapon of war. Rape by itself is an atrocity, but it is made even worse, tantamount to idolatry, when it is falsely justified in the name of Allah and His Messenger.
The basic principle in Islamic law is that a Muslim is forbidden from harming another person or animal unless it is necessary to repel a greater harm.
Ubaida ibn al-Samit reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, issued a decree:
لاَ ضَرَرَ وَلاَ ضِرَارَ
Do not cause harm or return harm.
Source: Sunan Ibn Mājah 2340, Grade: Hasan
Al-Suyuti expressed the legal principle as follows:
الضَّرَر يُزَال
Harm should be removed.
Source: al-Ashbāh wal-Naẓāʼir 1/7
Since it is well-established that rape causes innumerable harms to mind, body, and spirit, without any rational justification of preventing a greater wrong, it follows that rape is absolutely forbidden in Islam. This by itself is enough to establish the prohibition of rape. Even so, the Prophet further set the precedent that rape should not be tolerated in Muslim society. A man in Medina was caught after he raped a woman and the Prophet applied legal punishment on him, the maximum of which is the death penalty.
Abu Alqama reported: A woman went out to pray during the time of the Prophet and she was met by a man who attacked her and raped her. She said, “This man has molested me!” The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:
ارْجُمُوهُ
He is condemned to death.
Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 1454, Grade: Sahih
The righteous Caliphs who succeeded the Prophet continued this policy of legal punishment for the crime of rape. The victim of rape would not be punished regardless of the circumstances.
Ibn Umar reported:
أَنَّ عُمَرَ رضي الله عنه أُتِيَ بِإِمَاءٍ مِنْ إِمَاءِ الإِمَارَةِ اسْتَكْرَهَهُنَّ غِلْمَانٌ مِنْ غِلْمَانِ الإِمَارَةِ فَضَرَبَ الْغِلْمَانَ وَلَمْ يَضْرِبْ الإِمَاءَ
Umar ibn al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, was presented with a servant girl among those who served the leadership. She was forced upon by one of the young men, so Umar flogged the man and he did not flog the woman.
Source: Muṣannaf Ibn Abī Shaybah 29012
Nafi’ reported:
أَنَّ رَجُلاً أَضَافَ أَهْلَ بَيْتٍ فَاسْتَكْرَهَ مِنْهُمَ امْرَأَةً فَرُفِعَ ذَلِكَ إِلَى أَبِي بَكْرٍ فَضَرَبَهُ وَنَفَاهُ وَلَمْ يَضْرِبْ الْمَرْأَةَ
A man was invited as a guest of the family of a household, then he forced himself upon a woman among them. It was referred to Abu Bakr, so he flogged him and expelled him, and he did not flog the woman.
Source: Muṣannaf Ibn Abī Shaybah 29013
Hajjaj reported:
أَنَّ حَبَشِيًّا اسْتَكْرَهَ امْرَأَةً مِنْهُمْ فَأَقَامَ عَلَيْهِ عُمَرُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ الْحَدَّ
An Abyssinian forced himself upon a woman among them. It was referred to Umar ibn Abdul Aziz and he applied legal punishment on him.
Source: Muṣannaf Ibn Abī Shaybah 29014
The righteous jurists who succeeded the companions of the Prophet established a legal consensus that rape was forbidden and should be punished as if it were adultery. They only disagreed about the monetary fine that was to accompany legal punishment.
Ibn Abdul Barr writes:
وَقَدْ أَجْمَعَ الْعُلَمَاءُ عَلَى أَنَّ عَلَى الْمُسْتَكْرِهِ الْمُغْتَصِبِ الْحَدَّ إِنْ شَهِدَتِ الْبَيِّنَةُ عَلَيْهِ بِمَا يُوجِبُ الْحَدَّ أَوْ أَقَرَّ بِذَلِكَ فَإِنْ لَمْ يَكُنْ فَعَلَيْهِ الْعُقُوبَةُ وَلَا عُقُوبَةَ عَلَيْهَا إِذَا صَحَّ أَنَّهُ اسْتَكْرَهَهَا وَغَلَبَهَا عَلَى نَفْسِهَا وَذَلِكَ يُعْلَمُ بِصُرَاخِهَا وَاسْتِغَاثَتِهَا وَصِيَاحِهَا
The scholars agreed that the rapist must be given legal punishment if there is clear evidence against him that he deserves punishment or if he confesses to it. If the evidence is not as clear, then he is given a discretionary punishment. There is no punishment for the victim if it is true that she was forced and overpowered, as would be evident by her screams and cries for help.
Source: al-Istidhkār 32083
The prohibition of rape and sexual assault applied to all women, including wives, slaves, and prisoners of war. Rape as a weapon of war is never considered permissible in Islam.
Harun ibn al-Asim reported: Umar ibn al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, dispatched Khalid ibn al-Walid with the army. Khalid sent Dirar ibn al-Azwar along with a company of horsemen and they raided a district belonging to the tribe of Asad. They captured a woman who was a beautiful bride-to-be and she amazed Dirar. He asked his companions for her and they gave her to him, then he had intercourse with her. When he returned from the expedition, he regretted what he had done and he collapsed in dismay. It was referred to Khalid and told him what he had done. Khalid said, “Indeed, I have made her permissible and wholesome for you.” Dirar said, “No, not until you write to Umar.” Umar replied that he should be stoned to death, but he had passed away from natural causes by the time Umar’s letter arrived. Khalid said:
مَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيُخْزِيَ ضِرَارَ بْنَ الأَزْوَرِ
Allah did not want to disgrace Dirar ibn al-Azwar.
Source: al-Sunan al-Kubrá 16761
Al-Shafi’i said:
وَإِذَا اغْتَصَبَ الرَّجُلُ الْجَارِيَةَ ثُمَّ وَطِئَهَا بَعْدَ الْغَصْبِ وَهُوَ مِنْ غَيْرِ أَهْلِ الْجَهَالَةِ أُخِذَتْ مِنْهُ الْجَارِيَةُ وَالْعُقْرُ وَأُقِيمَ عَلَيْهِ حَدُّ الزِّنَا
If a man forcefully acquired a slave girl and then has intercourse with her thereafter, and he is not ignorant, the slave girl is taken away from him, he is fined, and he is punished for adultery.
Source: al-Umm 3/253
Furthermore, it is forbidden in Islam to merely slap a slave or a servant, let alone commit any harm greater than that. If a Muslim slapped his servant or slave in a manner that causes injury or indignity, the master would forfeit his legal custodianship over them.
Ibn Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessing be upon him, said:
مَنْ ضَرَبَ غُلَامًا لَهُ حَدًّا لَمْ يَأْتِهِ أَوْ لَطَمَهُ فَإِنَّ كَفَّارَتَهُ أَنْ يُعْتِقَهُ
Whoever strikes his slave sharply or slaps him, then the expiation for the sin is to emancipate him.
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 1657, Grade: Sahih
Suwaid ibn Muqarrin reported: He had a servant girl and someone slapped her, so he said to him:
أَمَا عَلِمْتَ أَنَّ الصُّورَةَ مُحَرَّمَةٌ فَقَالَ لَقَدْ رَأَيْتُنِي وَإِنِّي لَسَابِعُ إِخْوَةٍ لِي مَعَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَمَا لَنَا خَادِمٌ غَيْرُ وَاحِدٍ فَعَمَدَ أَحَدُنَا فَلَطَمَهُ فَأَمَرَنَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم أَنْ نُعْتِقَهُ
Did you not know that it is forbidden to strike the face? I was the seventh of my brothers during the lifetime of the Prophet and we had only one servant. One of us became enraged and slapped him, so the Prophet commanded us to set him free.
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 1658, Grade: Sahih
Malik reported:
أَنَّ عُمَرَ بْنَ الْخَطَّابِ رضي الله عنه أَتَتْهُ وَلِيدَةٌ قَدْ ضَرَبَهَا سَيِّدُهَا بِنَارٍ أَوْ أَصَابَهَا بِهَا فَأَعْتَقَهَا
Umar ibn al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, was presented with a servant woman who had been struck by her master with a piece of hot iron or had been injured by it, so he ordered him to emancipate her.
Source: al-Muwaṭṭa’ 2/403
Al-Shawkani comments on this tradition, saying:
ذَهَبَ مَالِكٌ وَالْأَوْزَاعِيُّ وَاللَّيْثُ إلَى عِتْقِ الْعَبْدِ بِذَلِكَ وَيَكُونُ وَلَاؤُهُ لَهُ وَيُعَاقِبُهُ السُّلْطَانُ عَلَى فِعْلِهِ
Malik, Al-Awza’i, and Al-Layth adhered to the opinion that a slave is freed on account of that abuse, he will have his loyalty inheritance, and the authorities will punish the master for what he did.
Source: Nayl al-Awṭār 6/101
That tacit question is this: If a man may not even slap a slave, how then could he in good conscience rape her or sexually assault her?
Anti-Muslim activists and their extremist Muslim counterparts agree that Islam allows the rape of captive women, yet their argument is one of silence. Since the Quran does not forbid rape, they imagine, it must therefore allow it. But an argument from silence is not a logically sound argument at all; rather, it is an incredibly unwarranted eisegesis, or a reading into the text that which it does not say. Plenty of evidence, as we have demonstrated, proves their claim to be false.
Yet we must confront their specific misinterpretations. Their primary proof-text used to justify their claim of rape is the following tradition:
Abu Sa’id al-Khudri reported: At the battle of Hunain, the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, sent an army to Awtas and they encountered the enemy and fought them. Having overcome them and taken them prisoner, the companions refrained from having intercourse with the captive women because their husbands were idolaters. Then, Allah revealed the verse:
وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ النِّسَاءِ إِلَّا مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ
(Prohibited for you) are married women except those whom your right hands possesses. (4:24)
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 1456, Grade: Sahih
This narration, read in isolation, might appear to sanction rape, since the attitude of the women and the accompanying rules of concubinage are unstated in this particular text. On the contrary, the appropriate scholarly methodology requires the collation of all texts and commentaries on a given topic before coming to a conclusive rule, principle, or practice.
In reality, we will find that this tradition is a proof against their position. Sexual intercourse was only made lawful with these women after they embraced Islam, which was a statement of their consent.
Al-Nawawi comments on this tradition, saying:
وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ مَذْهَبَ الشَّافِعِيِّ وَمَنْ قَالَ بِقَوْلِهِ مِنَ الْعُلَمَاءِ أَنَّ الْمَسْبِيَّةَ مِنْ عَبَدَةِ الْأَوْثَانِ وَغَيْرِهِمْ مِنَ الْكُفَّارِ الَّذِينَ لَا كِتَابَ لَهُمْ لَا يَحِلُّ وَطْؤُهَا بِمِلْكِ الْيَمِينِ حَتَّى تُسْلِمَ فَمَا دَامَتْ عَلَى دِينِهَا فَهِيَ مُحَرَّمَةٌ وهَؤُلَاءِ الْمَسْبِيَّاتُ كُنَّ مِنْ مُشْرِكِي الْعَرَبِ عَبَدَةِ الْأَوْثَانِ فَيُئَوَّلُ هَذَا الْحَدِيثُ وَشِبْهُهُ عَلَى أَنَّهُنَّ أَسْلَمْنَ وَهَذَا التَّأْوِيلُ لَا بُدَّ مِنْهُ وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ
Know that it is the way of Al-Shafi’i, and the scholars who agreed with him, that it is unlawful to have intercourse with the captive women among the idolaters and other unbelievers who are without a divine scripture unless they first embrace Islam. They are forbidden to approach as long as they are following their religion and these captive girls were among the Arab polytheists who worshiped idols. This tradition and others like it imply that the women embraced Islam and this is how they must be interpreted. Allah knows best.
Source: Sharḥ al-Nawawī ‘alá Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 1456
Taking responsibility for the custodianship of concubines is also not devoid of moral considerations, such as the divine command to treat them well. On this basis, several jurists prohibited men from coercing their concubines into a sexual encounter against their will.
Al-Shafi’i, may Allah have mercy on him, said:
وَهَكَذَا لَوْ كَانَتْ مُنْفَرِدَةً بِهِ أَوْ مَعَ أَمَةٍ لَهُ يَطَؤُهَا أُمِرَ بِتَقْوَى اللَّهِ تَعَالَى وَأَنْ لَا يَضْرِبَهَا فِي الْجِمَاعِ … فَأَمَّا الْجِمَاعُ فَمَوْضِعُ تَلَذُّذٍ وَلَا يُجْبَرُ أَحَدٌ عَلَيْهِ
Likewise, if a wife is by herself with him or a servant girl of his with whom he has sexual relations, he is commanded to fear Allah Almighty and to not strike her during intercourse… As for sexual intercourse, its purpose is pleasure and no one may be forced into it.
Source: al-Umm 5/203
In sum, contrary to the practice of self-identified Muslim terrorists who rape their hostages, the righteous jurists prohibited rape and sexual assault against all women, including wives, concubines, and prisoners of war. Sexual intercourse was only lawful in a legally valid marriage or in concubinage, which substituted as a marriage but is no longer valid due to the unanimous abolition of slavery.
Success comes from Allah, and Allah knows best.
Reply

Raymann
08-08-2018, 06:43 AM
How do we determine if a news event is true or false?I usually check my trusty sources and then the opposition and then as many sources as I can find.
Very simple, the more sources the more accurate the report.
On big events is almost impossible to pretend that the event is fake or false.Most of the big terrorist attacks have a huge immediate coverage. All news outlets from the whole political spectrum are represented. To see some stupid videos from conspiracy theorists claiming that 9/11 (as an example) never happened just defies all logical thinking. The coverage is so overwhelming that I don't need to see an official report to know that indeed happened.

The new year's eve rapes and assaults in Cologne, Germany was one of those events.The coverage was so huge and the investigation so vast that there is no denying that the attacks were perpetrated for the most part by Muslim Immigrants. There was a formal investigation and a report which concluded that there were 1500 complains of assaults, 500 of which were rape complaints. Those are only the complains received so there were many more attacks for sure.

My point is that you shouldn't need me to prove any of this, you should know that it did happened by using any of your sources.How can we talk about the causes of the problem and possible solutions if we never agree that the problem exists.
It is a constant denial and deflecting with the ultimate goal of not admitting ever.It is very obvious that asking for proof is just a delaying or defensive mechanism aim at avoiding losing the argument and a discussion stopper. It prevents discussion fluidity and shows a high level of dishonesty.I know you have a clear opinion of what happened and who the perpetrators where.

So again, this is my only question and I won't provide any proof of anything, you already did your homework and have all the proof you need to answer the question honestly.Where most of the perpetrators in the Cologne Attacks, Muslim Immigrants or at least people coming from Muslim Countries?
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Raymann
08-08-2018, 06:56 AM
Originally Posted by anatolian
Even if the claim, the ratio of muslims who commit the rape crimes in the western countries is more than non muslims in the tecent years, is true, we still cannot relate it to Islam or muslim idendity. You must consider all effects including culture, tradition, socio economic and psycho-sociologic situation etc.
Excellent point. Don't you think that the fact that most women in the west don't cover up to the standards of Islamic Culture might have something to do with it ?
I've heard muslims accusing western women of being virtually naked. That has proven very dangerous when people get together and form mobs of religious fanatics who believe is up to them to punish those who don't adhere to their religious principles.
Reply

Futuwwa
08-13-2018, 08:54 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
How do we determine if a news event is true or false?I usually check my trusty sources and then the opposition and then as many sources as I can find.
Very simple, the more sources the more accurate the report.
On big events is almost impossible to pretend that the event is fake or false.Most of the big terrorist attacks have a huge immediate coverage. All news outlets from the whole political spectrum are represented. To see some stupid videos from conspiracy theorists claiming that 9/11 (as an example) never happened just defies all logical thinking. The coverage is so overwhelming that I don't need to see an official report to know that indeed happened.

The new year's eve rapes and assaults in Cologne, Germany was one of those events.The coverage was so huge and the investigation so vast that there is no denying that the attacks were perpetrated for the most part by Muslim Immigrants. There was a formal investigation and a report which concluded that there were 1500 complains of assaults, 500 of which were rape complaints. Those are only the complains received so there were many more attacks for sure.

My point is that you shouldn't need me to prove any of this, you should know that it did happened by using any of your sources.How can we talk about the causes of the problem and possible solutions if we never agree that the problem exists.
It is a constant denial and deflecting with the ultimate goal of not admitting ever.It is very obvious that asking for proof is just a delaying or defensive mechanism aim at avoiding losing the argument and a discussion stopper. It prevents discussion fluidity and shows a high level of dishonesty.I know you have a clear opinion of what happened and who the perpetrators where.

So again, this is my only question and I won't provide any proof of anything, you already did your homework and have all the proof you need to answer the question honestly.Where most of the perpetrators in the Cologne Attacks, Muslim Immigrants or at least people coming from Muslim Countries?
Now you're moving the goalposts. You started by asserting that there has been a massive increase in the overall rate of rape in recent years. Still no actual numbers cited to back up that assertion, you instead changed the subject to one much-publicized event. As for those numbers you state, those are interesting. Wikipedia asserts that 509 was the total number of reported sexual offenses, which is anything from groping and lewd comments to actual rape. With only 8 being rapes and another 19 attempted rapes, as actually reported to the police in Cologne. Even so, even if there were 500 rapes, give or take, that's a drop in the bucket in a country of 80 million people. Do you have any idea how that compares to the overall rape rate in Germany? Or, that stranger rape is only a small fraction of the total rape rate, so a hypothetical massive increase in stranger rape wouldn't necessarily mean much of an increase in the overall rate.

You're lamenting the lack of discussion fluidity, but demand that the discussion be rigidly anchored on certain premises that you have dictated. Premises that you aren't even willing to entertain the notion of being incorrect, not even as a courtesy for the sake of discussion on equal terms. Whereas everyone else must accept your premises without question, or be deemed proven guilty of dishonest attempts at shutting down the discussion. Which is a peculiar accusation from you, since the only one who's refusing to continue if he doesn't get his way is you.

Ironic that. If this is your usual way of conducting a discussion, I can see why Muslims tend to react the way you say they do. As would I expect much anyone else.
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