New atheist

[nosmarter]

Hello all and thank you for having me here. I'm here not to debate the validity of Islam nor to offend any member. On the other hand, I'm very interested in how believers do think, especially in the context of the modern, Western world. I'm not just picking on Muslims ;) .. I've had many discussions with fundamentalist Christians also about the same things. I've tried to do the same with Muslims, but I find it more difficult because I don't find myself naturally in circles where they are and to be honest, I've found them to get offended quickly my questions when I do meet them. I suppose the current political climate doesn't help much.

So I'm hoping I can appeal to your hospitality and understanding when I do ask questions. Please know I mean no offense to you as a person if I ask a question that might seem impertinent. It's a question in which I sincerely want to know what your views are. If this is OK with you, then I thank you in advance. If not, you can always do the expedient thing other Islamic boards do and ban me (but I suspect that this board seems more open than the others).

As for myself, I've read the entire Old Testament, and the New Testament as well as the Quran. I'm now trying to find a good copy of the Reliance of the Traveller. I've also reads many books on evolution, Christian fundamentalism, Radical Islamic, "God is not Great" by Hitchens, "The God Delusion" by Dawkins, "The Islamist", and many others.

On a personal level, ironically, my son has been in a serious long-term relationship with a Pakistani Muslim girl. I've met her many times and think she's wonderful. But she has had to keep her relationship secret from her parents because they would react very badly. I fear a little for my son's safety, but even more so for hers. She no longer wears any head scarf and does have a sexual relationship with him.

Thank you all in advance and am looking forward to meeting you all online.

[Ümit]

İ do like a challenge...so bring it on. Make your questions critical and do not hold back...but promise us this:
Be honoust to yourself and to us.
İf you realise you are wrong...please admit and do not be stubborn and keep pushing your blind claim.
İ will do the same over here.
Good luck...
Hope we will get a nice and educative discussion

[anatolian]

Welcome. Your son’s relationship with the Pakistani girl is unislamic as you can guess. Your title made me think that you recently became an atheist at first. Btw when did and why did you become an atheist?

[Futuwwa]

:welcome:

I'm up for any discussion as long as you keep an open mind and give us the benefit of the doubt. I'll try to do the same :)

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[سيف الله]

Salaam

Forgive me brothers and sisters for being the cynic, but this guys another internet atheist looking for trouble.

Lets Start

New Athiest

Bad start

Hello all and thank you for having me here. I'm here not to debate the validity of Islam nor to offend any member. On the other hand, I'm very interested in how believers do think, especially in the context of the modern, Western world. I'm not just picking on Muslims ;) .. I've had many discussions with fundamentalist Christians also about the same things. I've tried to do the same with Muslims, but I find it more difficult because I don't find myself naturally in circles where they are and to be honest, I've found them to get offended quickly my questions when I do meet them. I suppose the current political climate doesn't help much.

Stop projecting, your not interested in debate, your looking for ways to 'undermine' and 'convert'.

So I'm hoping I can appeal to your hospitality and understanding when I do ask questions. Please know I mean no offense to you as a person if I ask a question that might seem impertinent. It's a question in which I sincerely want to know what your views are. If this is OK with you, then I thank you in advance.

Oh I'm sure you don't mean to offend, again stop projecting.

If not, you can always do the expedient thing other Islamic boards do and ban me (but I suspect that this board seems more open than the others).

Don't worry, we have a strict policy for internet atheists, step out of line and its the

for you.

As for myself, I've read the entire Old Testament, and the New Testament as well as the Quran. I'm now trying to find a good copy of the Reliance of the Traveller. I've also reads many books on evolution, Christian fundamentalism, Radical Islamic, "God is not Great" by Hitchens, "The God Delusion" by Dawkins, "The Islamist", and many others.

You can read books, AMAZING! Heres your gold star!

On a personal level, ironically, my son has been in a serious long-term relationship with a Pakistani Muslim girl. I've met her many times and think she's wonderful. But she has had to keep her relationship secret from her parents because they would react very badly. I fear a little for my son's safety, but even more so for hers. She no longer wears any head scarf and does have a sexual relationship with him.

Are your sure? Or are you not engaging in some orientalist fantasy? Its amazing didn't the atheist Pygo say same thing a couple of years back? Others as well

Thank you all in advance and am looking forward to meeting you all online.

We'll see how long you last.

One thing I'll say about internet atheists, they are predictable you've met one you've met them all.

[nosmarter]

Welcome. Your son’s relationship with the Pakistani girl is unislamic as you can guess. Your title made me think that you recently became an atheist at first. Btw when did and why did you become an atheist?

Yeah, well definitely do realize that about my son's girlfriend ;) I've pretty much been an atheist my whole adult life. My father was an ethnic Jew, but never religious. My mother was raised Catholic, but she too abandoned her religion long before I was born. But in grade school I was surrounded by fundamentalist Christian fellow students and teachers.

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Thank you, Umie. That's good to hear and I appreciate the kind words. If I do step over the line, please do let me know. Thanks again.

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Thank you, Umie. That's good to hear and I appreciate the kind words. If I do step over the line, please do let me know. Thanks again.

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Thanks, Futuwwa. I appreciate it very much.

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Hi Junon - very sorry to hear you feel this way. Hope once you get to know me better you'll change your mind a bit.

[Ümit]

Yeah, well definitely do realize that about my son's girlfriend ;) I've pretty much been an atheist my whole adult life. My father was an ethnic Jew, but never religious. My mother was raised Catholic, but she too abandoned her religion long before I was born. But in grade school I was surrounded by fundamentalist Christian fellow students and teachers.

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Thank you, Umie. That's good to hear and I appreciate the kind words. If I do step over the line, please do let me know. Thanks again.

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Thank you, Umie. That's good to hear and I appreciate the kind words. If I do step over the line, please do let me know. Thanks again.

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Thanks, Futuwwa. I appreciate it very much.

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Hi Junon - very sorry to hear you feel this way. Hope once you get to know me better you'll change your mind a bit.

in such an environment, no wonder you stay an atheist. No one provided you the information you need.
Welcome on Islamicboard.
ask what you want to know. don't take nothing for granted, be as critical as you can get. we can handle that...at least some of us will.

Islam follows a logical and therefore easy to follow path. you will also discover in time that the more you ask, the more logical it will get...as long as you stay open minded.
That is because every rule in Islam has a reason...it is not just a rule but it is logically derived from something. If you search long enough you will find the answer.

I greatly value discussions like this...because outsiders like you ask questions sometimes that never crossed my mind...and that makes me think from a different angle...it enables me to search and investigate...and discover new things about my religion.
and everytime that happens...I love my religion more and more.

Besides, If God created us humans, and all flora and fauna, and the entire universe...and even space time and light, then He also created the laws of nature.
This means that if we know that science is actually an approximation of reality based on facts out of observation, test and measurements of everything God has created, then we must conclude that Islam and science can never contradict each other.
and exactly that is where all the logic comes from.

[Abz2000]

this repetitive method of attempting to gain intellectual high ground by inserting implied accusations before embarking on a trolling crusade is quite old and the m.o is identical to those seen over the years.

Just thought i'd mention it on page one so that it doesn't falsely appear to anyone as a natural course of events.

@Junon - pygo was also going on (after years of spending hours on islamicboard) about how he was "curious as to why a girl who he dated online turned out to be a Muslim when he met her (like it was some sort of blind date) and then when they happened to go to the beach together - she wore a bikini...... and whether it was normal and acceptable and ....... basically a bunch of meat waving sexually illustrious stories apparently aimed at debasing the mind "look! tits! nice! I say fun! You say Islam say no good! people then stop thinking because i've hacked their baser animalistic instinct"

I think the user should be banned for gossiping sexually promiscuous stories since they cause no benefit or understanding unless he is willing to carry out or demand the carrying out of the lawfully prescribed rulings on the perpetrators unless they repent.
That way his story will have a moral to it.


لَّا يُحِبُّ اللَّهُ الْجَهْرَ بِالسُّوءِ مِنَ الْقَوْلِ إِلَّا مَن ظُلِمَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ سَمِيعًا عَلِيمًا

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)

Allah does not like the public mention of evil except by one who has been wronged. And ever is Allah Hearing and Knowing.

Quran, Chapter 4, Verse 148

[nosmarter]

Thanks again Umie, for being the voice of reason. I'll definitely be looking forward to discussions with you.

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this repetitive method of attempting to gain intellectual high ground by inserting implied accusations before embarking on a trolling crusade is quite old and the m.o is identical to those seen over the years.

Just thought i'd mention it on page one so that it doesn't falsely appear to anyone as a natural course of events.

@Junon - pygo was also going on (after years of spending hours on islamicboard) about how he was "curious as to why a girl who he dated online turned out to be a Muslim when he met her (like it was some sort of blind date) and then when they happened to go to the beach together - she wore a bikini...... and whether it was normal and acceptable and ....... basically a bunch of meat waving sexually illustrious stories apparently aimed at debasing the mind "look! tits! nice! I say fun! You say Islam say no good! people then stop thinking because i've hacked their baser animalistic instinct"

I think the user should be banned for gossiping sexually promiscuous stories since they cause no benefit or understanding unless he is willing to carry out or demand the carrying out of the lawfully prescribed rulings on the perpetrators unless they repent.
That way his story will have a moral to it.


لَّا يُحِبُّ اللَّهُ الْجَهْرَ بِالسُّوءِ مِنَ الْقَوْلِ إِلَّا مَن ظُلِمَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ سَمِيعًا عَلِيمًا

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)

Allah does not like the public mention of evil except by one who has been wronged. And ever is Allah Hearing and Knowing.

Quran, Chapter 4, Verse 148

I can't say I know who this Pygo guy was, but I have nothing to do with him. I certainly don't want no need to pay for whatever he did here, whatever it was. I find it interesting that despite me having said nothing offensive other than I'm an atheist, you chose to post a picture of a Hitler rally. I have absolutely no idea what the correlation is here.

As for my son's girlfriend - they seem to love each other and care about each other. It's my son we're talking about here, so you can be sure that there there will be no mention of any sexually explicit posts here even if I was privy to any (thankfully to which I'm not). I have respect for the girl because she's well-spoken, well educated, and intelligent. I also met her younger brother who is very much the same. They're both fine young people. I brought this up for the sake of full disclosure and not to antagonize anyone. It would seem to me that this is too important a detail to leave out given the context of this board. And maybe to a certain extent there is a selfish motive in that I worry about her and a little bit for my son and so I'm hoping in part to get the perspective of the parents from you since I haven't had the chance to meet them yet.

So I guess maybe you might save your vitrol for later when I do start asking questions that might bother you. Seems like you're shooting all your cannons a bit too quickly, no?

[Abz2000]

Thanks again Umie, for being the voice of reason. I'll definitely be looking forward to discussions with you.

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Interesting how you choose to flatter the only person who (probably pitifully) bothered to humour your rebellion promoting post, and also the fact that you chose to brand it as " the voice of reason " .

I can't say I know who this Pygo guy was, but I have nothing to do with him. I certainly don't want no need to pay for whatever he did here, whatever it was.

Why can't you say you know him? Did your boss prevent you from mentioning it under this username? How many times have you been banned? Is this your last chance or something?

I find it interesting that despite me having said nothing offensive other than I'm an atheist, you chose to post a picture of a Hitler rally. I have absolutely no idea what the correlation is here.

Unless you've been living in a hole and don't know that atheism is anarchist orwellian falsehood, you would have known that hitler was a usurer controlled atheist shill who also sexed his murderous image up with imagery of waving cooing girls and stories of love between nazi soldiers and cute naive girls.
When you mention sexual indecency in a positive light - it is not far from the pavlovian method of getting dogs and juveniles to salivate at the ring of a bell - not unlike the method of clothing horrendous crimes with mentions of mouth watering ice cream.

"They hate things - we love things"
George W. Bush (21st century liar, false flag reischstagger, and mass murderer).

As for my son's girlfriend - they seem to love each other and care about each other. It's my son we're talking about here, so you can be sure that there there will be no mention of any sexually explicit posts here even if I was privy to any (thankfully to which I'm not).

You casually mentioned that they have unmarried sex - don't you know that it is not lawful to promote unlawful sexual intercourse - and that it should be removed from society through promotion of lawful actions?

I have respect for the girl because she's well-spoken, well educated, and intelligent. I also met her younger brother who is very much the same. They're both fine young people.

Lol - are you not blatantly attempting to promote their unlawful actions via generalisation with positive sounding associations?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalization

I brought this up for the sake of full disclosure and not to antagonize anyone. It would seem to me that this is too important a detail to leave out given the context of this board.

Full disclosure of an action which you know is unlawful - spiced up with feel good sounding titilations - to what end other than promotion of decadence? are you a concerned father who would like guidance on how to bring them within the limits and guidelines of Islam?

And maybe to a certain extent there is a selfish motive in that I worry about her and a little bit for my son and so I'm hoping in part to get the perspective of the parents from you since I haven't had the chance to meet them yet.

awww, perfick perfick - so now you want to put all fathers on "the darling buds of may" empathy boat - well, let me inform you without ambiguity that the girl (if she actually exists in real life) is far from Islam and that her sexual interactions with your son are unlawful, your son's (if he actually exists in real life) sexual interactions with her are unlawful, that your passiveness is unlawful (know who pop larkin is?) , and that you must keep your unlawful actions quiet unless you want to accept the prescribed correctional punishments - and that you must immediately come within the boundaries of Islam to the best of your reasonable ability - and it is God who ultimately judges what is reasonable.
Anyone could give a similarly clothed story with the variable being the girl as his own daughter or wife - such an incestuous tale would only be cooed at by totally lost unintelligent anarchists.

So I guess maybe you might save your vitrol for later when I do start asking questions that might bother you.

It's not vitriol at all, it's shifaa -unless you're a dhuaalim - in which case it'll increase you in well-deserved loss upon loss.

Seems like you're shooting all your cannons a bit too quickly, no?

Prudence is a useful mechanism - especially when it's an obvious and oft-seen repeat of false kaafir propaganda that starts off with "i'm an a$shole -please help me" like someone trolling the samaritans helpline for kicks.

[Scimitar]

Hello all and thank you for having me here. I'm here not to debate the validity of Islam nor to offend any member. On the other hand, I'm very interested in how believers do think, especially in the context of the modern, Western world. I'm not just picking on Muslims ;) .. I've had many discussions with fundamentalist Christians also about the same things. I've tried to do the same with Muslims, but I find it more difficult because I don't find myself naturally in circles where they are and to be honest, I've found them to get offended quickly my questions when I do meet them. I suppose the current political climate doesn't help much.

So I'm hoping I can appeal to your hospitality and understanding when I do ask questions. Please know I mean no offense to you as a person if I ask a question that might seem impertinent. It's a question in which I sincerely want to know what your views are. If this is OK with you, then I thank you in advance. If not, you can always do the expedient thing other Islamic boards do and ban me (but I suspect that this board seems more open than the others).

As for myself, I've read the entire Old Testament, and the New Testament as well as the Quran. I'm now trying to find a good copy of the Reliance of the Traveller. I've also reads many books on evolution, Christian fundamentalism, Radical Islamic, "God is not Great" by Hitchens, "The God Delusion" by Dawkins, "The Islamist", and many others.

On a personal level, ironically, my son has been in a serious long-term relationship with a Pakistani Muslim girl. I've met her many times and think she's wonderful. But she has had to keep her relationship secret from her parents because they would react very badly. I fear a little for my son's safety, but even more so for hers. She no longer wears any head scarf and does have a sexual relationship with him.

Thank you all in advance and am looking forward to meeting you all online.

Yeah welcome and all formal nonsense,

you said you had questions.

Not read even one.

So what are you doing here again?

[nosmarter]

Interesting how you choose to flatter the only person who (probably pitifully) bothered to humour your rebellion promoting post, and also the fact that you chose to brand it as " the voice of reason " .




Why can't you say you know him? Did your boss prevent you from mentioning it under this username? How many times have you been banned? Is this your last chance or something?




Unless you've been living in a hole and don't know that atheism is anarchist orwellian falsehood, you would have known that hitler was a usurer controlled atheist shill who also sexed his murderous image up with imagery of waving cooing girls and stories of love between nazi soldiers and cute naive girls.
When you mention sexual indecency in a positive light - it is not far from the pavlovian method of getting dogs and juveniles to salivate at the ring of a bell - not unlike the method of clothing horrendous crimes with mentions of mouth watering ice cream.

"They hate things - we love things"
George W. Bush (21st century liar, false flag reischstagger, and mass murderer).




You casually mentioned that they have unmarried sex - don't you know that it is not lawful to promote unlawful sexual intercourse - and that it should be removed from society through promotion of lawful actions?



Lol - are you not blatantly attempting to promote their unlawful actions via generalisation with positive sounding associations?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalization









Full disclosure of an action which you know is unlawful - spiced up with feel good sounding titilations - to what end other than promotion of decadence? are you a concerned father who would like guidance on how to bring them within the limits and guidelines of Islam?



awww, perfick perfick - so now you want to put all fathers on "the darling buds of may" empathy boat - well, let me inform you without ambiguity that the girl (if she actually exists in real life) is far from Islam and that her sexual interactions with your son are unlawful, your son's (if he actually exists in real life) sexual interactions with her are unlawful, that your passiveness is unlawful (know who pop larkin is?) , and that you must keep your unlawful actions quiet unless you want to accept the prescribed correctional punishments - and that you must immediately come within the boundaries of Islam to the best of your reasonable ability - and it is God who ultimately judges what is reasonable.
Anyone could give a similarly clothed story with the variable being the girl as his own daughter or wife - such an incestuous tale would only be cooed at by totally lost unintelligent anarchists.


It's not vitriol at all, it's shifaa -unless you're a dhuaalim - in which case it'll increase you in well-deserved loss upon loss.





Prudence is a useful mechanism - especially when it's an obvious and oft-seen repeat of false kaafir propaganda that starts off with "i'm an a$shole -please help me" like someone trolling the samaritans helpline for kicks.

Whoa! How did you know? <on hands and knees looking for the hidden webcam/> Not that it matters, but Hitler wasn't an atheist - he was a Christian. He even describes himself as such in Mein Kampf.

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Yeah welcome and all formal nonsense,

you said you had questions.

Not read even one.

So what are you doing here again?

I did post one yesterday. I was asking about the book "Reliance of the Traveller". Thanks.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Just to further elaborate what I mean by an internet atheist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqdNYQpuNZg

Familiar isn’t it?

I was harsh but with reason, contrary to the claims that they make (were here for dialogue, peace, or understanding etc) it usually ends up if they can’t persuade you they will try to undermine and disrupt a forum like this over time. It happens time and time again in many forums (like this) I’ve visited over the years to the point you just have to agree to disagree and go your separate ways.

Many have malicious intent though they mask it, but the longer they spend their time here the more likely the mask is going to slip. You only have to look at the experience here over the years.

One atheist was dumb enough to admit the real reason why he (and many other atheists) comes here, to lead us slowly and subtly away from our faith, when I quoted it and called him out on it, he made some lame excuses and if I recall quickly left.

Pygo kept relentlessly trying to change our minds till the point he almost had a mental breakdown, looks like his liberal utopia not going to happen.

Or how about the ultra-civilized Czgibson he kept up the pretence for over a decade, but look at his latest posts over the last year or so, notice the change? Remember his demented rant about us being ‘primitives’? More and more he kept trying to persuade us to abandon the straight path, till he himself got banned. I think you could class him as a forked tongued liberal.

Or how about the atheist who made his flowery declaration of faith (that he is an atheist) in his first post. Ok, fine but why here of all places? Why not on an atheist forum? Its strange behaviour.

Or how about the ones who pretend to be Muslims, they are beyond dire.

I could go on and on but I’m sure long term members and mods have had similar experiences hence they reason why they get turfed out at a regular intervals, to such an extent many internet atheists just give up coming here.

Look at this guy, his whole post is a 'red flag'. Lets take the last part, his son is supposedly having a relationship with a Muslim women and describes it in detail. Why? You’re the father don’t you think it’s your responsibility not to broadcast intimate matter regarding your family on a public forum? He did this in his first post! Aren’t you mature enough to understand that some things should be kept private? It’s strange unless he’s posting for the sake of being ‘edgy’ and ‘provocative’. Atheists as we all know love to be ‘edgy’ and ‘provocative’. It’s happened a couple of times in the past this line of ‘attack’ so forgive me for being ‘sceptical’ .

Maybe I’ve judged this person harshly, I’m happy to be proved wrong but I’m not holding my breath.

oh what a surprise.

Whoa! How did you know? <on hands and knees looking for the hidden webcam/> Not that it matters, but Hitler wasn't an atheist - he was a Christian. He even describes himself as such in Mein Kampf.

Christian really? Come on internet atheist you can do better than that! He lied a lot and was pragmatic more than anything else, he was a secular first and foremost only interested in amassing power for himself and his nation.

Ah I see his mask of civility is beginning to slip, already! I know its hard to maintain masks but come on, At least try.

[Scimitar]

I did post one yesterday. I was asking about the book "Reliance of the Traveller". Thanks.

What does that have to do with your son dating a Muslim girl?

[nosmarter]

What does that have to do with your son dating a Muslim girl?

Nothing, why?

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Salaam

Just to further elaborate what I mean by an internet atheist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqdNYQpuNZg

..

That was pretty funny :D

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR][TD]My Interview With an Angry Internet Atheist (funny) - YouTube
Subscribe &amp; click the bell

[Alamgir]

he was a Christian. He even describes himself as such in Mein Kampf.

But his ideology is deeply rooted in atheistic beliefs, i.e survival of the fittest.

Anyway, welcome to the forum. Sorry about everyone else's scepticism and hostility but you have to understand that the internet is not a friendly place for Muslims, with Atheists being the most prominent community in Islamophobic circles.

If you want to learn about Islam, ask questions here and use these websites:

https://islamqa.info/en

http://www.islamweb.net/en/

You said you read the Quran, but that is not sufficient and may in fact give you the wrong idea. You should read a Tafsir, the best one available in English is Ibn Kathir's (funnily enough, many also consider it the best Tafsir in general):

http://www.qtafsir.com/

You should also read as many Sahih and Hasan Hadees as possible:

https://sunnah.com/

[nosmarter]

Thanks Al Khorasani, I appreciate it. I'm actually pleasantly surprised by how nice and welcoming the majority of most members here have been so far. In every group you're going to have a few that are going to be particularly virulent; it's just the way it is. Not much you and I can do about that.

That said, we need to keep in mind that no matter how bad someone's intentions are coming here, the most they can do is post words in a forum. If it's especially offensive, the moderators I'm sure are quick to take care of it.

[Scimitar]

Nothing, why?

because your arrival here makes no sense!

[Ümit]

A short discussion between Bushwack and nosmarter:

Yeah welcome and all formal nonsense,
you said you had questions.
Not read even one.
So what are you doing here again?

I did post one yesterday. I was asking about the book "Reliance of the Traveller". Thanks.

What does that have to do with your son dating a Muslim girl?

Nothing, why?

because your arrival here makes no sense!

Just look at the level of this conversation and how it makes perfectly sense.
People, do we have to act as if we have a few screws loose?
Is this the attitude our beloved Prophet sas would promote?

No, right? then please act upon it.

[Abz2000]

@umie - he'll know that members are on the troll hunt and he'll hopefully be straightforward and sincere (if he knows sincerity) in his questions rather than spicing them up with flowery illusionist propaganda :)

[Ümit]

@umie - he'll know that members are on the troll hunt and he'll hopefully be straightforward and sincere (if he knows sincerity) in his questions rather than spicing them up with flowery illusionist propaganda :)

But you don't know whether he is a troll or not...what if he really is sincere? You could be the one helping him one step closer to the truth.
If he turns out to be a troll...then he will be banned soon and you will loose nothing.
So I do not understand the hostility we are showing here.
That is not the attitude a Muslim should promote.
We do not throw the first stone.
But that is my opinion.

[nosmarter]

To be honest, the Quran isn't all that positive towards unbelievers like me - I'm guessing that there is a small number of people that might take that as a justification to be a little abusive.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

@Junon - pygo was also going on (after years of spending hours on islamicboard) about how he was "curious as to why a girl who he dated online turned out to be a Muslim when he met her (like it was some sort of blind date) and then when they happened to go to the beach together - she wore a bikini...... and whether it was normal and acceptable and ....... basically a bunch of meat waving sexually illustrious stories apparently aimed at debasing the mind "look! tits! nice! I say fun! You say Islam say no good! people then stop thinking because i've hacked their baser animalistic instinct"

This is quite perceptive. Yes internet atheists do tend towards degenerate ways of thinking, most sane people will keep it to themselves but they seem to have uncontrollable urge to pollute a forums like this with their ‘mindset’. It’s a type of exhibitionism. Just like this thread in fact.

That was pretty funny :D

It reminds you of someone does it not?

Thanks Al Khorasani, I appreciate it. I'm actually pleasantly surprised by how nice and welcoming the majority of most members here have been so far. In every group you're going to have a few that are going to be particularly virulent; it's just the way it is. Not much you and I can do about that.
That said, we need to keep in mind that no matter how bad someone's intentions are coming here, the most they can do is post words in a forum. If it's especially offensive, the moderators I'm sure are quick to take care of it.

A virtue signaler as well, this guy is text book.

But you don't know whether he is a troll or not...what if he really is sincere? You could be the one helping him one step closer to the truth.
If he turns out to be a troll...then he will be banned soon and you will loose nothing.
So I do not understand the hostility we are showing here.
That is not the attitude a Muslim should promote.
We do not throw the first stone.
But that is my opinion.

Its experience sister, over the years dealing with these types you realise many who come on this forum are looking to troll, cause trouble and are patently insincere, personally they are some of the ugliest mindsets I have ever encountered. Over time you learn how they operate and figure out the ones who are open and those who are out to cause trouble.

I’m sorry to say this one looks like trouble, his first post gave him away, typical internet atheist talking points, so we have to be firm and disciplined and let him know were not tolerating any of his BS, as ABz2000 says

@umie - he'll know that members are on the troll hunt and he'll hopefully be straightforward and sincere (if he knows sincerity) in his questions rather than spicing them up with flowery illusionist propaganda :)

Like I said I’m happy to be proved wrong but I’m not holding my breath.

[Scimitar]

To be honest, the Quran isn't all that positive towards unbelievers like me - I'm guessing that there is a small number of people that might take that as a justification to be a little abusive.

You keep creating straw men, we will keep calling you out on them, ok? ;)

[Ümit]

To be honest, the Quran isn't all that positive towards unbelievers like me - I'm guessing that there is a small number of people that might take that as a justification to be a little abusive.

The very purpose of the Quraan is to warn against being an unbeliever...they reject the very word of God. So you cannot expect the Quraan to be positive towards unbelievers.
But in the end even unbelievers are humans and should not be wronged. Especially not if they did not do anything wrong.

[Zafran]

New atheist still exist? Kids still identify with them? I thought you guys were losing out to the alt right and progressives.

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To be honest, the Quran isn't all that positive towards unbelievers like me - I'm guessing that there is a small number of people that might take that as a justification to be a little abusive.

The Quran warns against atheists because they are wrong - I'm sure you feel the same about theists.

[Saadullah]

Assalamualaikum, brothers and sisters, peace and blessings to you all. My humble request is not to indulge in irrational arguments and passing judgement. Dear please ask questions or whatever is in your mind you want to discuss regarding religion in general and Islam in particular.

May Allah (swt) protect us all from going astray.

[nosmarter]

New atheist still exist? Kids still identify with them? I thought you guys were losing out to the alt right and progressives.

- - - Updated - - -
Who knows? I sure don't ;)


The Quran warns against atheists because they are wrong - I'm sure you feel the same about theists.

Yeah, but I love speaking to theists of all faiths. I never recall feeling hostility towards individual theists - and I especially wouldn't call any of them names. I feel a great deal of empathy for people of faith. All beings, even simple organisms have a strong instinct for self-preservation - and they do all they can to avoid imminent dangers to their lives. But we humans are the only ones that have to face the inevitability of death sometime in the future. That has to have a profound effect on all of us. I can understand the need for reassurance that we don't actually die, but that we continue forever along with our loved ones.

There is no way I'm going to be hostile towards anyone who has chosen to unload that burden from their minds with religion. It's a brutally heavy load we humans have to carry and it gets heavier as we get older. It's also why I think some theists react with anger at my presence here. Some Christians do the same (although far, far less than Muslims). I think that religion becomes and integral part of many peoples' identity and their sense of their place in the universe. The idea that there are people like me walking around unwilling to legitimize this point of view could be seen as threat to some. Others, as I see here, feel no threat at all from me - I'm guessing because they're very secure in their convictions.

This strong identification with their religion is the reason why I would never seek to "convert" someone out of their beliefs. I personally think that's dangerous as someone like me has no "happy heaven" to offer as an alternative.

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Thank you very much, Saadullah. I appreciate the kind words.

[nosmarter]

I just realized something .. when I posted "New Atheist" on this thread I meant that I'm a new member and that I'm an atheist - not that I'm one of the people in the "new atheists" movement! My apologies for any misunderstanding!

[Ümit]

Yeah, but I love speaking to theists of all faiths. I never recall feeling hostility towards individual theists - and I especially wouldn't call any of them names. I feel a great deal of empathy for people of faith. All beings, even simple organisms have a strong instinct for self-preservation - and they do all they can to avoid imminent dangers to their lives. But we humans are the only ones that have to face the inevitability of death sometime in the future. That has to have a profound effect on all of us. I can understand the need for reassurance that we don't actually die, but that we continue forever along with our loved ones.

There is no way I'm going to be hostile towards anyone who has chosen to unload that burden from their minds with religion. It's a brutally heavy load we humans have to carry and it gets heavier as we get older. It's also why I think some theists react with anger at my presence here. Some Christians do the same (although far, far less than Muslims). I think that religion becomes and integral part of many peoples' identity and their sense of their place in the universe. The idea that there are people like me walking around unwilling to legitimize this point of view could be seen as threat to some. Others, as I see here, feel no threat at all from me - I'm guessing because they're very secure in their convictions.

This strong identification with their religion is the reason why I would never seek to "convert" someone out of their beliefs. I personally think that's dangerous as someone like me has no "happy heaven" to offer as an alternative.

- - - Updated - - -

Thank you very much, Saadullah. I appreciate the kind words.

That is quite a noble thought there, I must say. However I have to say it is only partly true what you are saying. Yes, religion lightens the burden of the knowledge of death, but that is NOT the reason why we believe.
We believe in what we believe because we are convinced of it. Everything points towards a creator. it is the most logical answer.

What I want to ask you is, what makes you so convinced that you do not believe in God. To us, that makes no sense.

Let us have a respectfull discussion with each other about this.

[nosmarter]

Umie,

Of course. It's a perfectly reasonable question. I'll do my best to answer. Let me just address the issue of God without getting into the specifics of any faith:

There is a standard of evidence that I need to accept that something is true - and I'm pretty sure this is the case for all of us for things that don't touch on religion. The evidence I might have for something may not be 100% perfect, but it does have to meet a certain threshold at least. So for example, the existence of Zeus, faeries, unicorns, goblins, and of course God all share the same level of paltry evidence that falls way below any acceptable standards. I can't prove any these things don't exist, but I'm pretty confident that based on the lack of evidence that they actually don't. And trust me, I'm always eager to hear anyone's evidence but as time goes on, I haven't heard anything new anymore.

I'm not denying that people truly feel like they have had a personal experience with God, but that hardly qualifies as evidence since this experience can't be tested or repeated and also because the experience can plausibly be explained by other things. The fact that people of all religions including whacky cults will offer the same explanation of their own deity makes it seem even more suspect to me.

The level of suffering in the world is inconsistent with the notion of a loving, caring God. It's one thing to say that some people are responsible for their own suffering, but it's quite another when small children, innocent people, animals are subjected to horrible suffering and death. The excuses religious people of all faiths make are to me just that: excuses. None of them do a remotely good job of offering a decent explanation beyond "God works in mysterious ways".

I'm happy to expand or clarify on this, Umie. Don't be shy! ;)

[Ümit]

Umie,

Of course. It's a perfectly reasonable question. I'll do my best to answer. Let me just address the issue of God without getting into the specifics of any faith:

There is a standard of evidence that I need to accept that something is true - and I'm pretty sure this is the case for all of us for things that don't touch on religion. The evidence I might have for something may not be 100% perfect, but it does have to meet a certain threshold at least. So for example, the existence of Zeus, faeries, unicorns, goblins, and of course God all share the same level of paltry evidence that falls way below any acceptable standards. I can't prove any these things don't exist, but I'm pretty confident that based on the lack of evidence that they actually don't. And trust me, I'm always eager to hear anyone's evidence but as time goes on, I haven't heard anything new anymore.

I'm not denying that people truly feel like they have had a personal experience with God, but that hardly qualifies as evidence since this experience can't be tested or repeated and also because the experience can plausibly be explained by other things. The fact that people of all religions including whacky cults will offer the same explanation of their own deity makes it seem even more suspect to me.

The level of suffering in the world is inconsistent with the notion of a loving, caring God. It's one thing to say that some people are responsible for their own suffering, but it's quite another when small children, innocent people, animals are subjected to horrible suffering and death. The excuses religious people of all faiths make are to me just that: excuses. None of them do a remotely good job of offering a decent explanation beyond "God works in mysterious ways".

I'm happy to expand or clarify on this, Umie. Don't be shy! ;)

We have for example the Quran and how it is revealed. We all know that our Prophet sas was illiterate and could not write or read. yet, somehow he dictated the complete Quraan to the people word for word and in such perfection that nothing in the Quraan contradicts with science and the knowledge we have today. you may find that insufficient as evidence for the existence of God, but what is the alternative.
no God means everything happened on its own by coincidence.

I pointed this out here several times, and I will do it again for you:

we humans arevery bad in estimating chances...that is why the lottery always makes so much money. we have this idea of "if there is a chance that some event will happen, then no matter how small that chance is, if you wait enough, it will happen"
this statement seems reasonable, but in this case it really is not.
we know the Earth is 14 billion years old. in those 14 billions years somehow molecules must come together under exact right conditions to form very complex DNA molecules. these multiple DNA molecules must find each other to form a gen. only then a cell can be formed...still all on its own...and the environment must stay perfect all the time...only then multiple cells can join to form a simple body.
in the meantime if the process gets disrupted by am impact of a meteor...all effort is lost and must start all over.

but even if a body has been formed (14billion years is way too short for that chance to happen, but ok)...totally on its own...then still it just is a dead body...it is not alive...so you still have no explanation of how life starts.
out of chaos does not come order on it's own. I have never found a marmelade jar out in the desert...perfectly formed on its own...where you could just screw a lid on and it perfectly fits. a jar is just glas (melted sand)...plenty of it in the desert, yet it never forms into a simple marmelade jar on its own.
So you have multiple dilemma's here.

Personally I think the Option of God is way more logic than this explanation. If you would win the national lottery jackpot every month for the rest of your life...that chance is even bigger than this...so what are we talking about?

So in short, you find the evidence of God not enough...but the alternative which you do value, seems much much worse.

Now with God, there is a reason we cannot prove his existence in the way you want.
We come to this Earth for a test. the very test is to believe in God or not...that is the only objective. If we could prove the existent of God the way you like, then this whole coming to Earth has no use.
The purpose of life has then no use.

But still God made his existence evident with everything around you...and by sending His Books and Prophets and miracles...you just have to acknowledge it.

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The level of suffering in the world is inconsistent with the notion of a loving, caring God. It's one thing to say that some people are responsible for their own suffering, but it's quite another when small children, innocent people, animals are subjected to horrible suffering and death. The excuses religious people of all faiths make are to me just that: excuses. None of them do a remotely good job of offering a decent explanation beyond "God works in mysterious ways".

I'm happy to expand or clarify on this, Umie. Don't be shy! ;)

sorry, I forgot about this part. this is a totally different subject. in order to understand this, you need to know a little more about the concept of life.

Again, this world is a test nothing more. we are given the option to choose for a life as nothing or do a test and earn a great life for eternity...so everyone who chose for the last option is waiting for his turn to come to earth and fullfill their test.

some of us will get tested with wealth, orthers not...some will be intelligent or not...will remain healty their entire life, others will become terribly sick or whatever.

Everyone gets tested on his own way. So the world seems unfair...and basically it is really unfair...but this unfairness is just the test...nothing more.
God is testing you...seeing this unfairness in the world...what is your reaction to it? what did you do to change it? Did you help them or did you turn your face away?
Are you abandoning God when you see this unfairness or not? That is your test.

one thing is sure...no one gets a test which he cannot pass.

God designed it to be like this...and He IS a loving God...that he gave us this chance to prove ourselves. even if you have the faith in a God in the weight of a mustard seed, you would earn Heaven.

You may ask yourself "why would God need to test us? isn't he Allknowing?"
Yes, and the answer is...God does not need to test us...this test is not meant for God, it is meant for ourselves.
If God just took us and threw us into Hell, we would complain like "why God? what did we do wrong?"
God will answer like "because I know you better than you know yourself"

But that answer will never satisfy us. By going through this test, we make ourselves witnesses of our own actions and decisions. only then we could understand Gods answer.

God is loving and caring...always listening...He is always there...waiting untill you make the right decision. no matter how bad you lived your life in the past...make one step towards God and He'll be running to you.

[Alamgir]

To be honest, the Quran isn't all that positive towards unbelievers like me

What do you mean by "like you"?

[nosmarter]

What do you mean by "like you"?

Well, unbelievers .. I am one, I guess. That's all I meant.

[nosmarter]

Thanks for taking the time with such a complete response, Umie. I'm somewhat familiar with the argument of creation by chance vs. by design - the Christians I was surrounded by also subscribe to that line of reasoning. I can appreciate the power of the argument since you're absolutely correct that forming a complete enzyme by chance is so small as to be pretty much impossible.

I think that most micro-biologists would point out is that in fact this is a long process with many small incremental steps, all governed by the non-random forces of natural selection and chemistry. The very first stages of could have been no more than simple self-replicating molecules, which might hardly have been called alive at all. But as soon as those come to be, then the process is no longer random. Although the odds of forming an individual peptide are incredibly small, if you take the size of the oceans and the number of molecules available, there would have been several billion "rolls of the dice", so to speak every year. On that basis, he first enzymes could have appeared very quickly. This process of evolution involves certain properties of living matter that prevent us from asserting that the process was accomplished in accordance with the laws of chance. Now, is that what actually happened? Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to say yet, but it does offer a plausible scenario which really doesn't require that there be God for it to happen.

As for the Quran .. maybe it's just me, but I did come across contradictions. Maybe not as many as the Christian bible, but enough for me to suspect there may have been quite a bit of human involvement in its writing. Maybe I have to read more still, but I can't say the book is convincing to me as proof. At least no more than other religious books, anyway. I'm not saying that I know it's wrong or anything because I don't. I'm just saying I'm not seeing the level of evidence you and others see.

As to the morality, I see where you're coming from here too. I would agree to the plausibility of the test. Of course, make me lose my money and see if I still remain honest, or tempt me with an affair and see if I'm able to remain true to my vows, heck make me go blind or lose my lims and see if I'm still faithful - sure I can see that. What I can't see is why small children need to die horrible deaths, for example. My brother in law is a policeman and he witnessed some horrific things that I wish he had never told me about. The ones that bothered me the most and the ones that really affected him psychologically were seeing small children being victimized. I've never heard of a good explanation for why any God would allow such a thing. The children are surely too young to be put to a test like that and to react with anything other than abject terror and despair before dying. I don't expect an answer to this from any theologian of any faith - this has been a nearly insurmountable problem despite many religious scholars bravely tackling this issue. I'm just saying that this is one reason why I don't believe there is a God.

I apologize in advance if this seems morbid, but I didn't know of any other way to express it.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

This strong identification with their religion is the reason why I would never seek to "convert" someone out of their beliefs. I personally think that's dangerous as someone like me has no "happy heaven" to offer as an alternative.

Projecting again.

I just realized something .. when I posted "New Atheist" on this thread I meant that I'm a new member and that I'm an atheist - not that I'm one of the people in the "new atheists" movement! My apologies for any misunderstanding!

Freudian slip eh?

Back to the good preacher approach, I also see your writing style and tone has changed, more mature than the drivel you posted earlier, smart strategy I guess, you could try the dawkins approach but I'm sure you've realised it wont get you anywhere, if your going to subvert peoples minds, you have to begin by feigning civility.

Lets see how this goes.

[Scimitar]

Lets see how this goes.

We know how this goes ;) lol

[Zafran]

Yeah, but I love speaking to theists of all faiths. I never recall feeling hostility towards individual theists - and I especially wouldn't call any of them names. I feel a great deal of empathy for people of faith. All beings, even simple organisms have a strong instinct for self-preservation - and they do all they can to avoid imminent dangers to their lives. But we humans are the only ones that have to face the inevitability of death sometime in the future. That has to have a profound effect on all of us. I can understand the need for reassurance that we don't actually die, but that we continue forever along with our loved ones.

We all die - that isn't the problem - the problem is why and how one should live and if any of that actually has any bearing on our future afterlife - If not then suicide may not be such a bad idea - or that horrible people actually do get away with doing horrible things and there is no justice.

You can go down the pessimistic, Nihilistic and meaningless way of atheism be it Nietzsche, the existentialist philosophers or logical positivists isn't exactly an attractive proposition.

There is no way I'm going to be hostile towards anyone who has chosen to unload that burden from their minds with religion. It's a brutally heavy load we humans have to carry and it gets heavier as we get older. It's also why I think some theists react with anger at my presence here. Some Christians do the same (although far, far less than Muslims). I think that religion becomes and integral part of many peoples' identity and their sense of their place in the universe. The idea that there are people like me walking around unwilling to legitimize this point of view could be seen as threat to some. Others, as I see here, feel no threat at all from me - I'm guessing because they're very secure in their convictions.

I disagree I think you live a very christian life especially if you live in the west. How you bury your dead, celebrate big occasions or get married are profoundly influenced by Christianity - you validate that belief all the time - the New atheist are the ultimate champions of it. They claim they dont believe in God and yet live a life of a christian sometimes better then the Christians themselves.

Of course Muslims are seen as the ultimate threat by Christians and new atheists alike for Obvious reasons

This strong identification with their religion is the reason why I would never seek to "convert" someone out of their beliefs. I personally think that's dangerous as someone like me has no "happy heaven" to offer as an alternative.

You dont have any alternative unlike the religious people out there. New atheist still piggyback on Christians. No religion that I can think of only has "happy Heaven".

[Ümit]

Thanks for taking the time with such a complete response, Umie. I'm somewhat familiar with the argument of creation by chance vs. by design - the Christians I was surrounded by also subscribe to that line of reasoning. I can appreciate the power of the argument since you're absolutely correct that forming a complete enzyme by chance is so small as to be pretty much impossible.

I think that most micro-biologists would point out is that in fact this is a long process with many small incremental steps, all governed by the non-random forces of natural selection and chemistry. The very first stages of could have been no more than simple self-replicating molecules, which might hardly have been called alive at all. But as soon as those come to be, then the process is no longer random. Although the odds of forming an individual peptide are incredibly small, if you take the size of the oceans and the number of molecules available, there would have been several billion "rolls of the dice", so to speak every year. On that basis, he first enzymes could have appeared very quickly. This process of evolution involves certain properties of living matter that prevent us from asserting that the process was accomplished in accordance with the laws of chance. Now, is that what actually happened? Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to say yet, but it does offer a plausible scenario which really doesn't require that there be God for it to happen.

Yes I am also familiar with this argument. But even that is really not that plausible as you think. from chaos does not come order on its own. that is why I gave you the example of the marmelade jar...a jar already has all its components together...just melted sand and given form...but it does not happen. The world should be full by now with objects we use nowadays, but naturally formed...deserts should be full with glass pots and vases, wine bottles, whiskey glasses...I am sure no one ever found one.
Mountains should be full with statues of people or animals....naturally eroded in stone...we should find paved roads (even just a few meters) with perfect square stone or marmor tiles in equal size...not of that is ever been found...because chaos does not form order just by its own.
every time archeologes find a part of pots or pans, it always belogs to some sort of ancient civilisation...never natural formed...
or forget all about this...just random rocks in such a formation like the Stonehedge to form a usable year calendar can not be found...just some rocks in a formation..
So, that is the first objection.

The second objection is: you can divide 1 infinite times by 2...the result will be a fracture so small it will aproach the zero...but it will never be zero...always something more than that...likewise, no matter in how small you make your incremental steps, the difference between hardly alive and dead is still too big. the question that rises about your hardly living molecules is: what exactly causes that dead molecule to hardly live? is it something automatic? so if as soon as this molecule gets formed it starts to hardly live automatically? and then the next question...can that molecule die?....and why?
What is exactly the difference between the hardly alive molecule, and it exact dead copy? what element is missing?

Do not get me wrong...I am not against science. I am an electrical engineer and have a great trust in science and technology. If there is anyone on this forum who will defend science and its various theories, it would prabably be me.
This scenario you gave may have happened...but only with the element God in it, the scenario is plausible. God does not have to create in an instant...He may have used these small incremental steps in time to create the Earth...He even can have used the evolution as a tool to create all the diversive life.

What I am saying is...The big bang, and the evolution theory and both very plausible theories...But God is still in the background...those theories still do not exclude God from it.

As for the Quran .. maybe it's just me, but I did come across contradictions. Maybe not as many as the Christian bible, but enough for me to suspect there may have been quite a bit of human involvement in its writing. Maybe I have to read more still, but I can't say the book is convincing to me as proof. At least no more than other religious books, anyway. I'm not saying that I know it's wrong or anything because I don't. I'm just saying I'm not seeing the level of evidence you and others see.

That is because you are still missing a lot of basic information.

One time in my younger years I also was occupied with searching for contradictions in the Bible...We Muslims know that the Bible is corrupted and not available in its original form and language.
on the internet, I found many contradictions. some of them looked very obvious. one of those contradictions caught my attention. It was Leviticus 11:3–6 saying:

1. ‘Whatever divides the hoof, and is cloven-footed, chewing the cud, among the animals, that you shall eat.
2. ‘Only, you shall not eat these of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: the camel, for he chews the cud but does not divide the hoof; he is unclean to you.
3. ‘And the rock badger, because he chews the cud, but does not divide the hoof; he is unclean to you.
4. ‘And the hare, because he chews the cud but does not divide the hoof; he is unclean to you.’

My immediate thought: Silly Christians...If this was the word of God, than surely He would know that the rabbit does NOT chew cud...a rabbit has just one stomach.
But I got curious how the rabbit digests his food, and it turns out that a rabbit poops out soft edible pellets first...eats those to digest for a second time and then poops out the harder pellets.
It is not exactly chewing cud...but again...the Bible has undergone too much corruptions and there is this translation error etc...
So there is definitely something true about this.

I no longer search for errors in the Bible anymore after that.

Why I am telling you this story? because contradictions you may find, may look obvious at first. but there is definitely an explanation if you are interested enough to look for it.
Maybe share your contradictions and we go through it together.

As to the morality, I see where you're coming from here too. I would agree to the plausibility of the test. Of course, make me lose my money and see if I still remain honest, or tempt me with an affair and see if I'm able to remain true to my vows, heck make me go blind or lose my lims and see if I'm still faithful - sure I can see that. What I can't see is why small children need to die horrible deaths, for example. My brother in law is a policeman and he witnessed some horrific things that I wish he had never told me about. The ones that bothered me the most and the ones that really affected him psychologically were seeing small children being victimized. I've never heard of a good explanation for why any God would allow such a thing. The children are surely too young to be put to a test like that and to react with anything other than abject terror and despair before dying. I don't expect an answer to this from any theologian of any faith - this has been a nearly insurmountable problem despite many religious scholars bravely tackling this issue. I'm just saying that this is one reason why I don't believe there is a God.

I apologize in advance if this seems morbid, but I didn't know of any other way to express it.

No, no need to apogize. you are correct. those kids are too young to be put to a test like this...no doubt about that...but the fact is...it cannot be ruled out. for the suspect is in a difficult position where he needs to get out of. and that innocent child is in his way...so he has the choice what to do with that child...it is His test, not the childs.
In Islam Children untill a certain age, people with down syndrome or other people with brain capacity too small to distinguish between good and bad, are free from the burden of the test. So for them, the test is very easy, but they still come to Earth as a test for some people else.
Again, the concept of this world is unfair...but it is made deliberately like this, and it is just temporary.

Was God able to create a perfect world where no one should have to suffer? yes He was, and He even create it...it is called the Heaven.
Why did God create the bad people? wasn't God able to create people who just automatically choose for the good and not for the bad?
Yes He was. Look at his other creatures, the angels...very powerfull creatures...very strong, fast as lightning...never disobedient.
But despite of that, Humans have a higher rank than the angels, and why?
Because there is one attribute that humans posess and Angels not...and that is free will.
Despite of our weakness and laziness and our freedom of will...we CHOOSE ourselves to believe in God and to be obedient.
Angels cannot choose....they are not programmed to choose...but we humans have a choice, and we choose for the good...and that exactly gives us the higher rank than the angels.

That is why the bad should be present on this world...so we actually have a free will.

That is why those innocent children suffer...because some idiot chooses for the bad and victimises them....he will get what he deserves eventually...if he gets away with it in this world, he will get it in the next but then much much worse.
But eventually, there will be justice for everyone.

[nosmarter]

Hi Zafran,

Thanks for the response. I'm sure there are atheists who are nihilists and pessimists - I'm glad I'm not one of them! While I don't believe there is any afterlife, I cherish this life now and all the people that are I'm here with. The inevitability of my death gives me purpose in that I only have a short life to experience what the universe has to offer and to make this world a better place. In my view it's miraculous that we're all here, now, speaking on this forum when you consider the sequence of events that had to occur over millions of years to get us to this point. 70 years from now, these posts will be gone, you and I will be gone, other people living in our homes, walking on our streets. But we're here right now, you and I, sharing some ideas. I see you and I and all the people in this world as sharing this short time we have right now which in time will be gone and forgotten. That makes me feel a sense of kinship with everyone. The shortness and wonder of this life makes it even poignant and precious to me.

I see what you're saying about living a Christian life despite not being a Christian. It's an interesting thought which I never really considered, and I paused a bit and thought about that. I guess certain things like monogamy and marriage, the wife taking the name of the husband, and a few other traditions do come from Christianity for sure. That said, I'm not sure that my identity is tied up with Christianity. In fact, not being a Christian in the West really changes nothing. I was thinking more of truly fundamentalist "holy rollers" like we call them in the US who might have been brought up that way, have all their friends in the same church, and who for a time felt like they could count on the afterlife. Or even Mormons, who essentially become ostracized if they cease to believe. Even if I had extraordinary persuasive powers, I'd hesitate to speak to people in that situation because besides the obvious social loss they would suffer, they would also have to contend with a complete reassessment of their previously held beliefs. It's one thing to convert from Christianity to Islam or vice-versa because there is a new community and a new set of beliefs to replace the old ones. But to become atheist .. well, there is really none of that. That was more what I meant.

[Ümit]

You dont have any alternative unlike the religious people out there. New atheist still piggyback on Christians. No religion that I can think of only has "happy Heaven".

Christianity in its new form has a happy heaven.
If you believe in Jesus, you will be saved and lead a happy life in heaven.
if you do not believe, then nothing happens..you just die and parish...disappear...but no hell.

Hinduism has a happy heaven.
If you live a good life, then you reincarnate as a better person higher in rank...if not, a lower rank...you keep reincarnating in this world untill you reach the highest rank, and after that you will reach nirvana and you won't reincarnate anymore.

[Abz2000]

Christianity in its new form has a happy heaven.
If you believe in Jesus, you will be saved and lead a happy life in heaven.
if you do not believe, then nothing happens..you just die and parish...disappear...but no hell.

Hinduism has a happy heaven.
If you live a good life, then you reincarnate as a better person higher in rank...if not, a lower rank...you keep reincarnating in this world untill you reach the highest rank, and after that you will reach nirvana and you won't reincarnate anymore.

Atheism has a happy heaven, you stage a false flag attack on your citizens, call it a pearl harbour, then go an murder and rob people in other countries in order to live a rich life and lend money on usury to the looted people, but since it's a scam worse than a pyramid scheme - it begins to eat its own tail and breeds offspring with minds that are more illogical, and criminal, and narrow minded - then the empire falls.
With Islam it's not only happy heaven hereafter, a just earth is created, it is the only empire that has survived through the ages and has continually stood back up after every stumble - read history to realise that the only names in a chain which ultimately prevailed are those of the Prophets who stood on the testimony that there is no other deity except the one God.

@nosmarter - Who do you think God is? i.e - what/who is the most powerful being in your mind?

[Ümit]

Atheism has a happy heaven, you stage a false flag attack on your citizens, call it a pearl harbour, then go an murder and rob people in other countries in order to live a rich life and lend money on usury to the looted people, but since it's a scam worse than a pyramid scheme - it begins to eat its own tail and breeds offspring with minds that are more illogical, and criminal, and narrow minded - then the empire falls.
With Islam it's not only happy heaven hereafter, a just earth is created, it is the only empire that has survived through the ages and has continually stood back up after every stumble - read history to realise that the only names in a chain which ultimately prevailed are those of the Prophets who stood on the testimony that there is no other deity except the one God.

@nosmarter - Who do you think God is? i.e - what/who is the most powerful being in your mind?

If you put it that way, yes you are right...atheists then also have a temporary happy heaven on this world which they must create themselves first.

But I think Zafran meant a happy heaven like in the afterlife.

[nosmarter]

What I am saying is...The big bang, and the evolution theory and both very plausible theories...But God is still in the background...those theories still do not exclude God from it.

I agree with you on that, Umie. It definitely doesn't exclude God. But it doesn't need the existence of God to explain it, which is why I can't use that as proof. I find it fascinating that as a scientist yourself, you have come to terms with reconciling evolution and the Koran. I find that encouraging. What about humans? Do you believe they evolved also, or did they get created directly by God in the form we are today?

The explanations for the suffering of the innocents, especially small children will always remain a problem for me. I realize that you offer an explanation for this, but to me at least, it still sounds like the "God works in mysterious ways" argument. It's just a perspective issue, I guess. I'm not at all saying your thinking is wrong or flawed in any way, but it seems to satisfy you in a way that it just can't for me.

Let me get back to you on the contradictions ..

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Atheism has a happy heaven, you stage a false flag attack on your citizens, call it a pearl harbour, then go an murder and rob people in other countries in order to live a rich life and lend money on usury to the looted people, but since it's a scam worse than a pyramid scheme - it begins to eat its own tail and breeds offspring with minds that are more illogical, and criminal, and narrow minded - then the empire falls.
With Islam it's not only happy heaven hereafter, a just earth is created, it is the only empire that has survived through the ages and has continually stood back up after every stumble - read history to realise that the only names in a chain which ultimately prevailed are those of the Prophets who stood on the testimony that there is no other deity except the one God.

@nosmarter - Who do you think God is? i.e - what/who is the most powerful being in your mind?

That Pearl Harbor were to be some sort of false flag conspiracy or not has nothing to do with atheism. As to your question, I don't believe there is any God at all - that's what defines a person as an atheist.

[Ümit]

I agree with you on that, Umie. It definitely doesn't exclude God. But it doesn't need the existence of God to explain it, which is why I can't use that as proof. I find it fascinating that as a scientist yourself, you have come to terms with reconciling evolution and the Koran. I find that encouraging. What about humans? Do you believe they evolved also, or did they get created directly by God in the form we are today?

I just gave you a few objections about your idea that without the element of God...it sill makes no sense...so you DO need the existence of God to explain it. Again, you are never going to find proof in the way you are looking for...you need to believe at some point.
But the clues you find around you make it pretty clear.

This topic about evolution also have been discussed here several times. The Quran clearly states that He created humans out of dust, clay and earth...we cannot get around that...but if you think about it...what happens to animal korpses when they die? it decomposes and retuns back to its original form, namely dust clay and earth...just like humans...so, there is definitely a link there...
The Quran also states that Adam as was created without parents...just like it states that Jesus as was born without a father.

We know that God is perfectly capable of making miracles happen...So the possibilities now is that Apes have been evolving until a almost human state, then one day God took that latest human "version" created Adam without parents and placed it on Earth...
something like that must have happened. Islam is not very clear about this...but the clues in science point towards evolution.
maybe in 30 years we find totally different clues and this whole evolution idea was just silly...we do not know...the truth is somewhere in the middle....but right now, it looks like that way.

Not all Muslims agree with me on this point...they rule evolution completely out...to them it sounds like evolution can happen on its own...but I doubt they have realised that it can be both. again...even science can be wrong on this...so we have that uncertain factor on both sides...but if one day science will come with rock hard proof that evolution is a fact...then it wont be contradictory to Islam.

The explanations for the suffering of the innocents, especially small children will always remain a problem for me. I realize that you offer an explanation for this, but to me at least, it still sounds like the "God works in mysterious ways" argument. It's just a perspective issue, I guess. I'm not at all saying your thinking is wrong or flawed in any way, but it seems to satisfy you in a way that it just can't for me.

Let me get back to you on the contradictions ..

I am not saying everyone has his faith, there is nothing we can do about it and we should just accept it.
just like some twisted orthodox Christians who have the crooked idea not to treat their sick child because that is how God wanted to be...they should not intervene or something...and then the child dies of course.
the thing is, you cannot intervene in Gods plans even if you wanted to. you taking your sick child to a hospital and give that kid a proper treatment...that is exactly what God expects you to do...that is not intervening...you still need to make the right choices.
So no, not God works in myterious ways...
you always do what you can to make the world a better place...and what you cannot influence...leave that to God...

A farmer cannot just kneel in front of a blank field and pray to have good crops this year...he must make effort, plant the seeds, water them daily, take care of it...and after all that work he can go pray to God for good crops.

Those innocent children suffer because of selfish individuals making the wrong decisions...what do you expect from God? to send a lightning bolt onto pigs that are about to abuse a child?

[Abz2000]

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That Pearl Harbor were to be some sort of false flag conspiracy or not has nothing to do with atheism. As to your question, I don't believe there is any God at all - that's what defines a person as an atheist.

Of course it's everything to do with Godlessness, since atheism is built upon lies and greed, the fact that the truth of Allah's existence and that of His messengers is HIDDEN and LIED about by atheist leaders in plain sight is not simply evidence - but PROOF that atheism is orwellian falsehood - and that atheists are knowing falsehood accepting doublethinking orwellian dupes in DENIAL.
The whole construct of atheism is built on falsehood and blatant denial of facts, and on censorship based on unjust lies and attempting to drag people to corruption and infidelity - and to try and keep them in it.
The events that take place globally and the fact that atheists depend upon constructs of allegory alone in attempts to obscure the facts - are proof of this fact.
That's why atheists accept false gods such as donald trump and elizabeth who implicitly own them.

[Alamgir]

As for the Quran .. maybe it's just me, but I did come across contradictions. Maybe not as many as the Christian bible, but enough for me to suspect there may have been quite a bit of human involvement in its writing. Maybe I have to read more still, but I can't say the book is convincing to me as proof. At least no more than other religious books, anyway. I'm not saying that I know it's wrong or anything because I don't. I'm just saying I'm not seeing the level of evidence you and others see.

As to the morality, I see where you're coming from here too. I would agree to the plausibility of the test. Of course, make me lose my money and see if I still remain honest, or tempt me with an affair and see if I'm able to remain true to my vows, heck make me go blind or lose my lims and see if I'm still faithful - sure I can see that. What I can't see is why small children need to die horrible deaths, for example. My brother in law is a policeman and he witnessed some horrific things that I wish he had never told me about. The ones that bothered me the most and the ones that really affected him psychologically were seeing small children being victimized. I've never heard of a good explanation for why any God would allow such a thing. The children are surely too young to be put to a test like that and to react with anything other than abject terror and despair before dying. I don't expect an answer to this from any theologian of any faith - this has been a nearly insurmountable problem despite many religious scholars bravely tackling this issue. I'm just saying that this is one reason why I don't believe there is a God.

I apologize in advance if this seems morbid, but I didn't know of any other way to express it.

I guarantee whatever contradictions you think you found are non-existent, many Islamic websites online discuss and refute such allegations. You can also ask questions on forums like this so we can clear such misconceptions.

This is why it is best to read the Quran with a tafsir, otherwise you might not understand it properly.

The whole "world is evil so there is no God" argument has been refuted numerous times:

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/is-god-...vil-suffering/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2xSZMDAx8E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNtz5wgnopQ

[nosmarter]

Thanks for the links, Al Khorasani. I watched both and I read the text. I do appreciate it, but with respect - I have to say that these arguments not very new nor very convincing to me. I appreciate that these resonate with you, but for whatever reason, I can't find the the explanations satisfying. For indiscriminate suffering, the explanation seems to be that we shouldn't worry because the greater the suffering the greater the reward. I'm guessing that as sad as we might be at seeing a 5 year old suffer and die from cancer (as per one of the videos), we shouldn't despair because that child will be rewarded for his/her suffering in the afterlife. I admit it sounds nice, and I sure wish I could believe that. But it just sounds so .. "made up by man" to me. I think I would have to have already accepted that God exists and is good to then be able to try and believe this too. But to me, it looks like there needs to be a lot of logical contortions to get that to stick.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that I'm absolutely right in this case. We're both looking at the very same videos and texts and yet we come away with completely different conclusions. I truly believe you're sincere in your belief that these are acceptable explanations.

[Alamgir]

Thanks for the links, Al Khorasani. I watched both and I read the text. I do appreciate it, but with respect - I have to say that these arguments not very new nor very convincing to me. I appreciate that these resonate with you, but for whatever reason, I can't find the the explanations satisfying. For indiscriminate suffering, the explanation seems to be that we shouldn't worry because the greater the suffering the greater the reward. I'm guessing that as sad as we might be at seeing a 5 year old suffer and die from cancer (as per one of the videos), we shouldn't despair because that child will be rewarded for his/her suffering in the afterlife. I admit it sounds nice, and I sure wish I could believe that. But it just sounds so .. "made up by man" to me. I think I would have to have already accepted that God exists and is good to then be able to try and believe this too. But to me, it looks like there needs to be a lot of logical contortions to get that to stick.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that I'm absolutely right in this case. We're both looking at the very same videos and texts and yet we come away with completely different conclusions. I truly believe you're sincere in your belief that these are acceptable explanations.

Of course, things like this are very subjective and not at all objective, but that's why I don't consider it a valid argument made by Atheists.

[Zafran]

Christianity in its new form has a happy heaven.
If you believe in Jesus, you will be saved and lead a happy life in heaven.
if you do not believe, then nothing happens..you just die and parish...disappear...but no hell.

Hinduism has a happy heaven.
If you live a good life, then you reincarnate as a better person higher in rank...if not, a lower rank...you keep reincarnating in this world untill you reach the highest rank, and after that you will reach nirvana and you won't reincarnate anymore.

No Christianity does have hell - especially Catholicism. If you reject divinity of Christ you go to hell. Hinduism and Buddhism have Karma - so if you do bad you reincarnate into something lower which would increase suffering. No religion has a happy heaven only that was my point, they balance it out with retribution for evil by some sort of punishment or consequences for bad actions.

[happymuslim]

Thanks for the links, Al Khorasani. I watched both and I read the text. I do appreciate it, but with respect - I have to say that these arguments not very new nor very convincing to me. I appreciate that these resonate with you, but for whatever reason, I can't find the the explanations satisfying. For indiscriminate suffering, the explanation seems to be that we shouldn't worry because the greater the suffering the greater the reward. I'm guessing that as sad as we might be at seeing a 5 year old suffer and die from cancer (as per one of the videos), we shouldn't despair because that child will be rewarded for his/her suffering in the afterlife. I admit it sounds nice, and I sure wish I could believe that. But it just sounds so .. "made up by man" to me. I think I would have to have already accepted that God exists and is good to then be able to try and believe this too. But to me, it looks like there needs to be a lot of logical contortions to get that to stick.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that I'm absolutely right in this case. We're both looking at the very same videos and texts and yet we come away with completely different conclusions. I truly believe you're sincere in your belief that these are acceptable explanations.

I see why you think this world is unfair, and that makes sense from the way you see it. But your missing the there side of the equation. You know how in an equation you have to balance it out on the other side of the equal sign? So this life is like one side of the equation, you may see poverty and struggle here, and injustice, but the Justice is to be taken care of on the day of judgment which completes the equation. That's how we Muslims see it and it is actually Justice, some other beliefs don't believe in the day of judgment so your argument would win over them, but not in this case.

It's not made up, belief in the afterlife is an article of faith, it's not something Muslims made up to makes everyone feel better.

[Ümit]

Thanks for the links, Al Khorasani. I watched both and I read the text. I do appreciate it, but with respect - I have to say that these arguments not very new nor very convincing to me. I appreciate that these resonate with you, but for whatever reason, I can't find the the explanations satisfying. For indiscriminate suffering, the explanation seems to be that we shouldn't worry because the greater the suffering the greater the reward. I'm guessing that as sad as we might be at seeing a 5 year old suffer and die from cancer (as per one of the videos), we shouldn't despair because that child will be rewarded for his/her suffering in the afterlife. I admit it sounds nice, and I sure wish I could believe that. But it just sounds so .. "made up by man" to me. I think I would have to have already accepted that God exists and is good to then be able to try and believe this too. But to me, it looks like there needs to be a lot of logical contortions to get that to stick.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that I'm absolutely right in this case. We're both looking at the very same videos and texts and yet we come away with completely different conclusions. I truly believe you're sincere in your belief that these are acceptable explanations.

You have to see that a little differently nosmarter...This answer is just to address the "contradiction" you see between in "If God is loving and caring, why do people have to suffer?" Just to give you the big picture, and how it works. Islam does not say "we should not despair because the greater the suffering, the greater the reward." Even though that is true, the greater the suffering, the greater the reward, but we should never stop being human. We keep despairing and worrying as long as someone suffers. ...we should aid them where and when possible.

So, why does evil exist and why do innocent people have to suffer? Because this world is a test...and it is just temporary...and if we pass the reward is great...But our test at the same time is to see those people suffering...and to worry, and despair...but also to feel responsible for them and to think that we CAN make a difference with our actions...so to offer them a helping hand...to support them where possible in order to end their pain, etc. etc.

This answer is not meant to take away your worrying or to comfort you. it is not like..."Everything will fall into place in the end, so I do not have to think about them".

You still do what you can do...provide the help you can afford or are possible of...support where you can...and for the part you do not have the capacitiy for leave it to God and to give you little comfort that in the end their suffering will not be in vain.

[nosmarter]

Folks, I want to thank you all for your hospitality and your input here. Although I'll continue to drop in to read your posts, I can see that I may have made a mistake in attempting to engage in debates here. Many of my posts have been deleted or get moderated for days before appearing. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable here nor make more work for the moderators. I'll discontinue posting on this board. Thanks again, and I wish you all the best!

[AabiruSabeel]

Many of my posts have been deleted or get moderated for days before appearing. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable here nor make more work for the moderators. I'll discontinue posting on this board. Thanks again, and I wish you all the best!

Two deleted posts is not many.

[nosmarter]

Two deleted posts is not many.

No worries, AabiruSabeel. But those were posts that I think were important. Again, no hard feelings, my friend. I recognize that you certainly do alot of thankless work here and are certainly answerable to all sorts of other people. I don't want to make yours nor anyone's life harder than it needs to be. Either this board is open to points of view that you might disagree with or it's not. If ultimately it's not, then that's fine .. I'd rather not force the issue. Thanks again, AabiruSabeel.

[Abz2000]

@nosmarter - please do drop us a hint under your next username - you caught some readers off-guard this time around.

[nosmarter]

Haha! Ok, will do!. Take care, Abz2000.

[fschmidt]

There is a standard of evidence that I need to accept that something is true - and I'm pretty sure this is the case for all of us for things that don't touch on religion. The evidence I might have for something may not be 100% perfect, but it does have to meet a certain threshold at least. So for example, the existence of Zeus, faeries, unicorns, goblins, and of course God all share the same level of paltry evidence that falls way below any acceptable standards. I can't prove any these things don't exist, but I'm pretty confident that based on the lack of evidence that they actually don't. And trust me, I'm always eager to hear anyone's evidence but as time goes on, I haven't heard anything new anymore.

[...]

The level of suffering in the world is inconsistent with the notion of a loving, caring God. It's one thing to say that some people are responsible for their own suffering, but it's quite another when small children, innocent people, animals are subjected to horrible suffering and death. The excuses religious people of all faiths make are to me just that: excuses. None of them do a remotely good job of offering a decent explanation beyond "God works in mysterious ways".

I am really amazed by Muhammad's ability to maintain good manners in the face of repeated insults, and I personally find it difficult to do this. I have been repeatedly insulted on atheist forums and banned from all of them. The reason I was on them is because I used to be atheist myself. My experiences on these forums helped me to reject atheism.

Atheism is a religion founded by Plato. Atheists have blind faith in the idea of absolute truth which Plato put forward. This faith is based on no evidence, it is simply the core faith of Atheism. In addition, Atheists generally believe that truth can be found directly from reason, which is an idea that Plato supported, but is in fact generally wrong as history shows.

I explained the reason for suffering here:

http://www.mikraite.org/Atheism-tp103.html

And my argument for God is here:

http://www.mikraite.org/God-for-Atheists-tp18.html

I wrote these before I learned about Islam, but Islam doesn't really affect these arguments.

[Ümit]

Folks, I want to thank you all for your hospitality and your input here. Although I'll continue to drop in to read your posts, I can see that I may have made a mistake in attempting to engage in debates here. Many of my posts have been deleted or get moderated for days before appearing. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable here nor make more work for the moderators. I'll discontinue posting on this board. Thanks again, and I wish you all the best!

Sorry to hear that nosmarter. I really wished we could have some respectful and informative debate here together with each other. Still good to hear that you still are there somewhere in the background.
If you have a question or a comment, please post it, and we will do our best to answer it.
about posts that has been deleted and moderated...I think that is pretty much with every new member.
I remember that some of my posts also have been deleted and moderated...I did so much effort for setting up a good reaction..and then the next day it was gone...and I did not know why.
I think the moderators just need time to get to know you and to trust you...if you continue your stay, you will see that the amount of moderations will get less and less.
Our moderators are perhaps slow in trusting people but I'm sure they are reasonable and with compassion.

Whatever you choose to do, I hope you will find the truth someday (this counts to everyone by the way :)).

[Studentofdeed]

Often atheists have a personal reason why do not believe in god. It more of an emotional problem. Yes people suffer but they are due to tests. If you want signs that can not be denied, look and study the prophet (SAW) life. Notice every single prophecy he made is coming true. Why is it lit of people are converting to islam? Why did the prophet (SAW) live like a poor man when he could have wealth? Why did he forgive? Why was he victorious? Why was he able to make waves in his community? It is because people knew this man was an honest man who does not lie. If this guy was greedy, liar, or womanizer then it would have been heard from his birth but rather all his life he has been honest and uptight because he was chosen by God. So study this and ask yourself how are is prophecy coming true? How and why does black magic work?

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Meant to say lot ofpeople. Sorry.

- - - Updated - - -

Upright not upright. Sorry again

[Karl]

It seems to be a political agenda to be an atheist and a very left leaning one too. In religions, people can believe in whatever gods they want. But not to believe in any gods or whatever beyond our understanding is very simple minded. So what is the purpose of the atheist? To get rid of gods and for everybody to worship the State? And what will be this State? A global liberal progressive authoritarian State I suppose. So what is the purpose of atheist's to "debate" about religion? Only to attack it until everybody becomes a commie. But this is futile because some people are genetically made to be theists. Having said this I believe most people that identify with religion these days are crypto Marxists/ atheists/ leftists anyway.

[Scimitar]

So what is the purpose of the atheist?

An atheist has no purpose. A thing without purpose is useless. I find it odd how atheists would posit that there is no identified objective purpose to life. If inanimate objects can have a purpose, then animate objects, most certainly do. And yet when it comes to "life" - there is no purpose? Seems very irresponsible and escapist to me.

[Futuwwa]

Folks, I want to thank you all for your hospitality and your input here. Although I'll continue to drop in to read your posts, I can see that I may have made a mistake in attempting to engage in debates here. Many of my posts have been deleted or get moderated for days before appearing. I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable here nor make more work for the moderators. I'll discontinue posting on this board. Thanks again, and I wish you all the best!

I'm sincerely sad to read that. As far as argumentative Internet atheists go, you are way ahead of the curve.