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Raymann
08-25-2018, 12:52 AM
Or should I have asked: What's wrong with Muslims? or What's wrong with people living in Muslim Countries?
Let me explain.
I've been reading a lot of Islamic culture and history and things don't add up.Islam is a religion that also provides a set of rules on how to live your entire life. Everything is instructed by god (Allah) and your prophet so you should have the perfect instructions on how to succeed, live in harmony and peacefully.
Instead, I cannot find a single fully developed Muslim country in the world. Why?
The more I read about specific countries the more I start to discover all the problems that affect them.
Some common culprits are:
Intolerance with other religions or cultures (hate, dislike, confrontations, wars).
Underdevelopment (poverty is usually very high on most Muslim countries)
Peace is not the best quality of most Muslim countries (confrontations with other Muslims as well as with others)
Can anyone explain it to me?
Money and resources are not the only problem since Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Turkey and others seem to have the resources but somehow cannot fully develop.
I'd like to see how a perfect and peaceful (secure and tolerant) Muslim Country would look like.
Reply

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eesa the kiwi
08-25-2018, 03:43 AM
There's nothing wrong with Islam. Islam is a perfect way of life ordained by the creator.

Don't confuse Muslims and Islam two completely different things. Islam is perfect Muslims are not. To answer the question the Muslim world is a shambles because we've turned our backs. We have forgotten our purpose in life which is to worship Allah and turned our purpose into chasing after the dunya

Tariq ibn Shihab reported: Umar ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, said, “Verily, we were a disgraceful people and Allah honored us with Islam. If we seek honor from anything besides that with which Allah has honored us, then Allah will disgrace us.”

Source: al-Mustadrak 214

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Albani
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xboxisdead
08-25-2018, 05:46 AM
Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi
There's nothing wrong with Islam. Islam is a perfect way of life ordained by the creator.

Don't confuse Muslims and Islam two completely different things. Islam is perfect Muslims are not. To answer the question the Muslim world is a shambles because we've turned our backs. We have forgotten our purpose in life which is to worship Allah and turned our purpose into chasing after the dunya

Tariq ibn Shihab reported: Umar ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, said, “Verily, we were a disgraceful people and Allah honored us with Islam. If we seek honor from anything besides that with which Allah has honored us, then Allah will disgrace us.”

Source: al-Mustadrak 214

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Albani
THANK YOU! Also to add...paradise of non-Muslims is this world. Your heart and desires are here. Even the homeless non-Muslim who barely have enough food, shelter, get beaten up, raped, abused, insane, bad at school, sick, crippled...is forbidden to see his children, etc. That non-Muslim man or woman who have these calamities...THAT IS HIS or HER paradise. That is it. Not a very good deal now, is it? Well...this is what non-Muslims traded. They traded the afterlife for this world..so this world is their paradise. For Muslims this world is literally a prison. A jail cell so to speak. The afterlife is the true success and their paradise belongs to them there.

Now some non-Muslims could be rich like Bill Gate or financially well set or could be the most beautiful, most smartest, most articulate, most influential,have the most power, happy and content with children and family, live a long and healthy life, never ones had a single calamity befall them, etc. Well that is their paradise too in this world.

What is the state of the non-Muslims in the afterlife? Hellfire.

What is the state of the Muslim in the afterlife? Paradise.

So while the non-Muslims are rejoicing at their power, influence, success in this world and while Muslims are struggling, suffering, dying, etc in this world. The one who gets the last laugh are the Muslims.;D

Oh..also...for the Muslim mother who goes through pain to deliver the baby for every pain she gets her sins are cleaned and she gets rewards over rewards.

For non-Muslim mother who delivers that child is a punishment, who when she gets sick is a form of punishment, when she get dizzy it is a form of punishment, when she delivers the baby and goes through the pain, that is a punishment. For non-Muslim who get to have a paper cut, that is a punishment, who get burned, that is a punishment, who have a flue that is a punishment. As for Muslims who get pain that is a mercy from Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) and it is to remove sins and add good deeds, same applies if the Muslim is burned, etc. For Muslims and non-Muslims however, who get burned is a form of warning from Allah (Subhaanahu Wa Talaa) to remind that person that hellfire is worse than that and if you cannot handle the pain of burn here...that it is worse in the afterlife.
Reply

fschmidt
08-25-2018, 07:05 AM
What is wrong with Muslims is that they don't follow Islam. This forum is an example. There is no basis for censorship in Islam, yet this forum exercises unreasonable censorship, thereby illustrating what is wrong with Muslims.
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Abz2000
08-25-2018, 08:06 AM
The Islamic spirit within Muslims weakened at one stage and they passively allowed themselves to be looted by the likes of east india company. Before this - the Muslims of Bengal (east india) and many others were living in prosperity.
Oh why did that mogul emperor allow the british east india pirates to appease him by falling to his feet in false pretense? If only he had slaughtered them as an example and sent their heads to the king of england.
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anatolian
08-25-2018, 08:20 AM
The reason why there is not a single fully developed Muslim country in the world today is because there is not a single Muslim country who properly follow Islam in the world today. You need to dig in history to see something. We humans are forgetful beings and its been 1400 years since the Prophet set the rules for the perfect example of the Islamic society. We have forgotten most of it and also did not adopt the western or eastern civilization considering them un-Islamic although we have already gone more un-Islamic then them in some aspects. So here we are..If we remember the true Islamic way one day then you can see how far go beyond those western and eastern civilizations. Here “we” refers to the muslim majority countries.
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Raymann
08-25-2018, 08:59 AM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
paradise of non-Muslims is this world
Not if you ask a Christian, or a Jew.

Originally Posted by xboxisdead
For Muslims this world is literally a prison.
That is a dark description of "this World", any reason Allah put you in a prison and make you suffer?
That's the first time I read something like that, I'm in total shock.
So I don't understand why Muslims try so desperately to run away from the Islamic prison Allah assign to them and go to enjoy the Christian World.
Are you saying that it is anti-Islamic to be prosperous, successful, happy, tolerant and peaceful IN THIS WORLD.
Can you have a good standard of living and a nice car in this world and still go to paradise later on?
Thanks for your reply.
Reply

Raymann
08-25-2018, 10:58 AM
Originally Posted by anatolian
there is not a single Muslim country who properly follow Islam in the world today
That is amazing, considering that there are 1.6 billion Muslims and I think around 50 Muslim countries.I know that some Muslims think Democracy and Islamic Countries don't match but the way I see it, Democracy could be the best path for a total Islamic Country.Democracy in it's basic form only means Government by the people. The people chooses who governs the country.
On a real democracy, Muslims could choose a real Islamic Government that applies all the Islamic Laws.If the government decides to go it's own way the people (on a democracy) have the right to get it back in the right path.
So considering those 50 Muslim Countries and that some of them use democracy in the government,
how come none of them has ever attempted to do what for any Muslim should be the right thing to do, adopt fully Islamic Laws ? How can you claim the Islamic system is so perfect when Muslims themselves are so reluctant to use it ?
Reply

Alamgir
08-25-2018, 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Or should I have asked: What's wrong with Muslims? or What's wrong with people living in Muslim Countries?
Let me explain.
I've been reading a lot of Islamic culture and history and things don't add up.Islam is a religion that also provides a set of rules on how to live your entire life. Everything is instructed by god (Allah) and your prophet so you should have the perfect instructions on how to succeed, live in harmony and peacefully.
Instead, I cannot find a single fully developed Muslim country in the world. Why?
The more I read about specific countries the more I start to discover all the problems that affect them.
Some common culprits are:
Intolerance with other religions or cultures (hate, dislike, confrontations, wars).
Underdevelopment (poverty is usually very high on most Muslim countries)
Peace is not the best quality of most Muslim countries (confrontations with other Muslims as well as with others)
Can anyone explain it to me?
Money and resources are not the only problem since Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Turkey and others seem to have the resources but somehow cannot fully develop.
I'd like to see how a perfect and peaceful (secure and tolerant) Muslim Country would look like.
The problems are:

1. We don't practice Islam properly anymore (e.g nobody rules by Sharia in it's entirety)
2. General 3rd world problems (e.g corruption, brain drain and poverty).
3. Everyone considers it okay to invade/attack our countries (e.g Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq).

We're working on fixing number 1 and 2, but it's up to you guys to fix number 3. We are a minority in your countries and will remain that way for quite a while, so it's up to you to vote for people who will stop committing or supporting the crimes that are inflicted upon us.
Reply

xboxisdead
08-25-2018, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
The problems are:

1. We don't practice Islam properly anymore (e.g nobody rules by Sharia in it's entirety)
2. General 3rd world problems (e.g corruption, brain drain and poverty).
3. Everyone considers it okay to invade/attack our countries (e.g Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq).

We're working on fixing number 1 and 2, but it's up to you guys to fix number 3. We are a minority in your countries and will remain that way for quite a while, so it's up to you to vote for people who will stop committing or supporting the crimes that are inflicted upon us.
Don't forget also that everything starts in homes. See how parents raise their children. Are they focused on children's well being to be educated for dunaya reasons or for akhira reasons? Do they teach their children math, biology, physics as their highest priorities or they teach them Qura'an, ahadith, fiqh, etc as their highest priority? Do they think English is the language of power or Arabic is the language that is spoken in paradise and should be protected in this world from being lost?

How many civilians look up to Western world as first world being success vs looking at the prophet as their role model? How many boys LOVE to wear and act or try to mimic the prophet peace be upon him and girls want to mimic and wear the style of the best of woman in the world (during the prophets time)? How many children (boys and girls) look at the prophet (peace be upon) as their hero and role model? How many parents instill this in their homes? How many parent have musical instruments in their homes (like my home have a piano, my mom bought it for my twin brother as he plays piano). How many actually don't miss a single prayer of fajir (like me who misses fajir prayers and sometimes I do not) or other prayers (same here)? How many are honest in their businesses with other people? How many people in Muslim countries are actually "man" of their words and honor their words actually?

Yes...there are so much to fix in ourselves before we as Muslim community can actually succeed!

Let me test you guys with this question. How many would feel safe to be under the knife in surgery room under a non-Muslim American or Canadian person vs under a Muslim person? You will be surprised to find that majority of Muslims would say they would feel safe under the knife of a non-Muslim vs a Muslim. Then shouldn't this make you go :o:o:o:o? One have to ponder why we have reached this far.

Amazingly no one is actually pondering.
Reply

M.I.A.
08-25-2018, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Or should I have asked: What's wrong with Muslims? or What's wrong with people living in Muslim Countries?
Let me explain.
I've been reading a lot of Islamic culture and history and things don't add up.Islam is a religion that also provides a set of rules on how to live your entire life. Everything is instructed by god (Allah) and your prophet so you should have the perfect instructions on how to succeed, live in harmony and peacefully.
Instead, I cannot find a single fully developed Muslim country in the world. Why?
The more I read about specific countries the more I start to discover all the problems that affect them.
Some common culprits are:
Intolerance with other religions or cultures (hate, dislike, confrontations, wars).
Underdevelopment (poverty is usually very high on most Muslim countries)
Peace is not the best quality of most Muslim countries (confrontations with other Muslims as well as with others)
Can anyone explain it to me?
Money and resources are not the only problem since Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Turkey and others seem to have the resources but somehow cannot fully develop.
I'd like to see how a perfect and peaceful (secure and tolerant) Muslim Country would look like.
It's because of the secret..

Everyone talks around it without understanding it.

And to be fair, you don't need to understand it.

Islam is a way of life, do this.. don't do that. Do the things that are ultimately deemed beneficial and stay away from things that are detrimental.

Then you can move forward and establish something.

Unfortunately as it goes, the deeds are written.. And all accounted for.

And the sins we can't rid ourselves off, are the ones we are judged on.

Once you know the secret, you can't ever go back.

All things fall away.

You understand that even oppression is read from a book.

How one man reads another.

I would love to say that we all live in little protected bubbles..

And we do.

But I don't know what makes or removes yours.


Lol, what's in your mouth? And why is it there?

You shouldn't even know.


But if you do, then it's just one man introducing another..


Allah swt raises and lowers as he wills.


I can't do the things you people do anymore. And they are amazing sometimes believe me.

But patience and perseverance are hard to maintain, and so we hate others rather than hating ourselves..

Too old to blame others here.

Make no mistake, Islam is the truth.

It's the way forward, although success is only with Allah swt.

I really don't know if there is benefit in knowing.

Id be content with just being really good at what I do.
Reply

Aku
08-26-2018, 06:13 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
.
Some common culprits are:
Intolerance with other religions or cultures (hate, dislike, confrontations, wars).
Underdevelopment (poverty is usually very high on most Muslim countries)
Peace is not the best quality of most Muslim countries (confrontations with other Muslims as well as with others)
Can anyone explain it to me?
Don't make a blank assessment or judgment. How many million are homeless and beggars in non-Islamic countries, especially in the US when compared to Islamic countries.
Reply

HisServant
08-26-2018, 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Or should I have asked: What's wrong with Muslims? or What's wrong with people living in Muslim Countries?
Let me explain.
I've been reading a lot of Islamic culture and history and things don't add up.Islam is a religion that also provides a set of rules on how to live your entire life. Everything is instructed by god (Allah) and your prophet so you should have the perfect instructions on how to succeed, live in harmony and peacefully.
Instead, I cannot find a single fully developed Muslim country in the world. Why?
The more I read about specific countries the more I start to discover all the problems that affect them.
Some common culprits are:
Intolerance with other religions or cultures (hate, dislike, confrontations, wars).
Underdevelopment (poverty is usually very high on most Muslim countries)
Peace is not the best quality of most Muslim countries (confrontations with other Muslims as well as with others)
Can anyone explain it to me?
Money and resources are not the only problem since Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Turkey and others seem to have the resources but somehow cannot fully develop.
I'd like to see how a perfect and peaceful (secure and tolerant) Muslim Country would look like.
Hello/Salaam,

Generally, I am certain there are many things wrong with many Muslims, inclusive of myself
We do have the perfect instructions but following them wholly can be another matter.
One possible answer, we are in the age of great tribulation; some leaders and individuals aren't following or establishing Islam properly, in the life story of the prophet pbuh an example is the Madinah period when Islam was established, there was no intolerance although there were rules to be followed by all religions/cultures.
Underdevelopment, http://www.strongestinworld.com/rich...lim-countries/

On a positive note some of these countries try to help others but whether they are 'allowed' to help or not is another matter.

"This week, the United Arab Emirates offered assistance of $100 million while Qatar offered $5 million. India will not accept relief assistance from foreign governments for the flood-ravaged state of Kerala, the government has said, following offers of aid from Qatar and the United Arab Emirates."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/india-dec...053854085.html

Sometimes, we cause tribulations on ourselves by being close friends/having strong ties with those who oppose the perfect guidance and laws. Being negatively influenced, other times we may be able to influence positively. However, success is not in our hands ultimately, we are tested sometimes by being given less and rewarded for patience and steadfastness by being given more. The whole concept, of progression, in my understanding, is based on righteousness. When you start with yourself being accountable( the relationship with Allah) and perfect this, then it's becomes more easier to move with social relations, ...correct governance of a country. The Islamic values is the perfect ideal, when followed on how to live in a righteous way. Not only will you feel spiritually well as an individual, with abundance hope, attracting divine blessings, help of Angels etc, you'll be mentally sharp, insightful and fair to everyone. (understanding of events, situations will be far more perceptive, even when being led astray)

Having to be accountable on a daily basis, (at the start till the end of each day, and daily) enables you to be exceptionally merciful to others, (in some instances I was directed to videos whereby the parents of their murdered child publicly forgave the killers/murders - perhaps they were fearful and aware about the punishment for murderers in the the hereafter, hence wanted to forgive them in this world? Or, maybe it was due to a specific situation to show compassion because they fear both i.e the punishment for murderers in addition to rejecting Islam?)

The values are tremendous to be purposefully kind without seeking any kind of reward or having an 'ulterior' agenda, work well with others being healthy in mind, body and behavior, it's all by having a pure spiritual state or trying to achieve etc, perhaps this is why many aren't concerned with pursuing worldly wealth and progression. It takes away from their worship or comprises it in someway, or they focus more of building on their spiritual nature. That is their right, likewise some would try to do achieve it all using the strength of their spirituality/inner good nature to do as much good as possible. And, some would have comprised their deen and lost sight of the highest values and attainments truly possible, in steering their way back an eternal abode of everlasting peace and blessings.

Nevertheless, what's the point of achieving great amounts of wealth, greatest technological advancements, greatest forms of developments when good character and being morally upright is missing or compromised? What's the end result, for I believe that we are all aware for every action there is a consequence. If, a person and his friend gain wealth by robbery and killing another individual, do you really think they will both enjoy that wealth? Chances are whenever you are in friendship with a bad person doing wrong actions, you will both end up betraying each other/ one over the other. I think some believe it's karma......Similarly, (and yet differently) we believe in our good and bad actions having effects, whereby we will be rewarded for the good actions and punished for the bad. But, we don't necessarily live like feeling this way, sometimes we feel a great deal of closeness to our creator and it causes internal discomfort to do anything wrong to destroy the relationship with Him whom we love.

When prophet Isa (a.s) returns the glory of Islam will be established.

1. He will verify the right ideas about himself and deny the wrongs
2. He will encourage/guide people to worship Allah
3. He will establish the laws in the Quran/justice and peace will prevail
4. The false Messiah (who calls others to worship himself) and his system will be destroyed

If you live until then, you will surely see how a "perfect and peaceful" society will be ;)

But, I really hope way before that happens your understanding changes, because none of us know for certainty when that time will be..,,:thumbs_up
Reply

xboxisdead
08-26-2018, 11:55 AM
Originally Posted by Aku
Don't make a blank assessment or judgment. How many million are homeless and beggars in non-Islamic countries, especially in the US when compared to Islamic countries.
Especially when the majority of these homeless are men. And in USA if you are a man no one cares and if you are homeless and a man no one cares. USA is a sexist and racist country. Islam have zero tolerance to sexism or racism. Non-Muslim say and shout that Islam hate men or Islam hate women where in fact they the non-Muslim hate themselves and everyone around them period ;D;D. Islam is a perfect religion of complete justice. It is a treasure to be protected with your life.
Reply

beleiver
08-26-2018, 12:36 PM
To answer the OP simply... We (me, you, everybody) are living in the age of Satan...And we are blind, it's not the eyes that are blind but our hearts...
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
08-26-2018, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
What is wrong with Muslims is that they don't follow Islam. This forum is an example. There is no basis for censorship in Islam, yet this forum exercises unreasonable censorship, thereby illustrating what is wrong with Muslims.
Erm, what? Might be worth raising this in the Helpdesk section if you feel you're being 'censored'. I'll be happy to discuss any issues there.
Reply

Raymann
08-28-2018, 04:51 AM
Thanks for the replies.
I understand most comments and the general consensus that Muslims are not practicing Islam as they should and that to be one of the causes of the problems that afflict Islamic Countries.
I am not sure I agree with that but I have no means to argue against it.

Some other messages were not so much of my like, here is one:

Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
1. We don't practice Islam properly anymore (e.g nobody rules by Sharia in it's entirety)
2. General 3rd world problems (e.g corruption, brain drain and poverty).

Especially this part here:

Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
3. Everyone considers it okay to invade/attack our countries (e.g Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq).

We're working on fixing number 1 and 2, but it's up to you guys to fix number 3.
Who is everyone? America?, the Western countries? or the whole non-Islamic world?

"It's up to you guys": Again, I had nothing to do with it.

Let me understand, attacking any Muslim Country is like attacking your own country? Is that what you're saying?
Using the same logic, when members of the Muslim Countries (ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Qaeda, etc), attack non-Muslims or other countries then you should stand up and take responsibility for the atrocities committed by your own people.
Do not tell me they are not real Muslims just because they don't act like you would.
They pray 5 times a day, memorize the Quran and follow it even more in depth than you'll ever do.

I truly believe that most Muslims don't think like you do (hopefully) and I don't blame them for the actions of a few extremists but you cannot use double standards and accuse others for the very same think that you do yourself.
Islam originated around Mecca and expanded around the world by invading other countries and not by sharing religious flyers.
The allies went after Van Laden, the Taliban and Saddam Hussein and they left after they finished their mission, they didn't attempt to conquer those countries. I'm not saying that I agree with their actions but those are the facts.
Palestine was never a country by the way and Israel could have easily kept all the territory gained after the 6 day war but they didn't, they just want to have a piece of land for themselves and I understand it.
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ChosenTCO
08-28-2018, 12:35 PM
Whats wrong with the majority of muslims all over the world are 2 things, Intolerance and Pride.

Im not sure if it is something that arises due to the way islam is being taught[Not Islam Itself] or whether its something inherent in arabs.
Pride is one of the most destructive features a nation could have between its people. This pride breeds intolerance and intolerance breeds war. A single, effective ingredient for catastrophe ...

its so common to hear stories about how a person thinks his intellect is far more superior than the rest, but its not just that. The problem is that these people justify violence in order to force people into following their ways and teachings.
In islam, we are ordered and commanded by God to have no doubt about our religion and its instructions and there is nothing wrong with that. It is meant to make our faith in the religion stronger than any other. But the problem comes when we try to force it on others or shame them for not following us. This is were many of us muslims deviate from the teachings of islam. Allah clearly stated in the holy Quran that there is no compulsion in religion. Yet u see muslim minority or even majority groups shame and curse those who do not follow their beliefs. But its not just that, some muslims actually believe that the Quran and islam in general instruct us to hate all and every non muslims out there, see them as the enemy, and create this "them versus us" narrative in the minds of the youth. This creates muslims who are full of passion for their religion, and hate for all people who are non muslims to the point that they would be willing to commit suicide (bombing) to put some hurt on those non muslims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2nlIfn8tNA

This video is a perfect example of how horrible some muslims who are uneducated have become and how vulgar they are in their chants and hate towards non muslims. Now it should be noted that these cases arent common among muslims and so we shouldnt generalize all muslims to be like that, but its common enough for the media to pick up on those things a number of times to send a bad public image about muslims. Now why the hell would any non muslim with a sane mind would want to join islam after seeing such video? This creates more problems for islam, not solve them. Yes, i will admit that islam does instruct us to be very wary of the Kuffar and stern in tone when interacting with them but this doesnt apply for people who mean us no harm, regular non-muslim individuals who want to live in harmony whether its with or without us. Why, oh why must everything be a fight for these people ... its beyond me. There are other things than hate to be passionate about, but ... i guess this is the curse of this nation.

Hadiths:
1)- Sahih Muslim Book 041, Hadith Number 6904 "...I begged my Lord for my Ummah that it should not be destroyed because of famine, nor be dominated by an enemy who is not amongst them to take their lives and destroy them root and branch, and my Lord said: Muhammad, whenever I make a decision, there is none to change it. Well, I grant you for your Ummah that it would not be destroyed by famine and it would not be dominated by an enemy who would not be amongst it and would take their lives and destroy them root and branch even if all the people from the different parts of the world join hands together (for this purpose), but it would be from amongst them, viz. your Ummah, that some people would kill the others or imprison the others."

2)- Sahih Muslim Book 041, Hadith Number 6906 "...I asked my Lord three things and He has granted me two but has withheld one. I begged my Lord that my Ummah should not be destroyed because of famine and He granted me this. And I begged my Lord that my Ummah should not be destroyed by drowning (by deluge) and He granted me this. And I begged my Lord that there should be no bloodshed among the people of my Ummah. but He did not grant it."


So much bloodshed is going to come because of these over passionate youngsters seeking to help the ummah by forcing others to submit to their young and unexperienced/naive knowledge of the deen (Religion). Each new one that comes keeps holding the ummah back from progressing over what the previous, and more experienced scholars of the ummah have said. So many times we have been held back and so many times we were not allowed to progress due to these people stopping us from looking at some of the real problems that affect this ummah. Our issues is that a large number of us cant live in harmony together, let alone others from different religions or nations (because we're so close minded and stubborn). So how is it expected from us to even progress when we can live peacefully together?

Many of those who commented on this form have said it straight! We have left the basic teachings of islam, that includes decency in our code of conduct and attitude when dealing with people. Yet instead we focus on other mynute and trivial things to the point were we fight over it and make takfir over each other about it.
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beleiver
08-28-2018, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
The allies went after Van Laden, the Taliban and Saddam Hussein and they left after they finished their mission, they didn't attempt to conquer those countries. I'm not saying that I agree with their actions but those are the facts.
Palestine was never a country by the way and Israel could have easily kept all the territory gained after the 6 day war but they didn't, they just want to have a piece of land for themselves and I understand it.
Just want to point out....Bin Laden was supported financially, morally and with military hardware by the west when he invaded Afghanistan with this ultra-conservative extremist form of Islam that is forced on the people there to this day, this -------ized Islam comes out from the same Saudi dynasty the British enthroned in Mecca and have always supported and let propagate this extremism the world over..
And Saddam was a US/British asset and ally while he genocided the Kurds and waged a long war on their behalf against Iran that killed millions of people...

And sorry there are still military bases protecting corporate interests in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, in fact, all over the planet...

Palestine never a 'country' are you serious? there was no land called Palestine? there were no Palestinian people?

Everything is connected, you really want to know whats wrong with 'Muslims' you have to ask yourself whats wrong with the world...
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Junon
08-28-2018, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Thanks for the replies.

The allies went after Van Laden, the Taliban and Saddam Hussein and they left after they finished their mission, they didn't attempt to conquer those countries. I'm not saying that I agree with their actions but those are the facts.
Palestine was never a country by the way and Israel could have easily kept all the territory gained after the 6 day war but they didn't, they just want to have a piece of land for themselves and I understand it.
No wonder these invasions keep happening if they have the mindset you are displaying. Seriously read some history.

Thankfully not all are as ignorant or as gullible as you.
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nosmarter
08-28-2018, 11:01 PM
Actually, I don't see how it's possible to follow the rules set forth by the Quran and Sharia and not wind up with a society like IS. For every gay man they threw off the top of a building, for every person they beheaded, for every sex slave they took - they can and did draw a straight line from their actions to supporting verses and rules in Islamic scripture. Add to that the validation for the treatment of women as inferior, death for apostasy, death for adultery, death for homosexuality, death for witchcraft, .. and the list goes on.

Some of you here I can see are just about as much against this as I am. This means to me that your own moral values are in conflict with what's commanded by the books - something I find encouraging. But unless you choose to ignore or reinterpret the words in the book (something which the Quran warns against), you have to admit that those rules make for a pretty appalling place to live.
Reply

keiv
08-28-2018, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
I'd like to see how a perfect and peaceful (secure and tolerant) Muslim Country would look like.
If you've been reading a lot of Islamic history, you would have seen it. Looks like you have more reading to do.
Reply

nosmarter
08-28-2018, 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by keiv
If you've been reading a lot of Islamic history, you would have seen it. Looks like you have more reading to do.
Can you give us an example? I think I read alot of history, but I can't think of a time when that would have been the case.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
The problems are:

1. We don't practice Islam properly anymore (e.g nobody rules by Sharia in it's entirety)
2. General 3rd world problems (e.g corruption, brain drain and poverty).
3. Everyone considers it okay to invade/attack our countries (e.g Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq).

We're working on fixing number 1 and 2, but it's up to you guys to fix number 3. We are a minority in your countries and will remain that way for quite a while, so it's up to you to vote for people who will stop committing or supporting the crimes that are inflicted upon us.
1) That's maybe a good thing, no? Among other things, doesn't Sharia call for the death penalty for apostasy, criticizing Islam, homosexuality, adultery (for females) ..
2) That might account for poverty, but not for the rest of the issues menstioned
3) Those same countries, Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine - all thought it was ok to attack other countries as well and with no real provocation. They maybe shouldn't be surprised if there are some reprisals. I would add that I see no evidence that any of those attacks you mentioned are because they are Muslims.
Reply

keiv
08-28-2018, 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by nosmarter
Can you give us an example? I think I read alot of history, but I can't think of a time when that would have been the case.
The prophet's seerah would be a good start.
Reply

nosmarter
08-28-2018, 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by keiv
The prophet's seerah would be a good start.
Oh from the religious books .. I thought you were referring to history books.
Reply

Abz2000
08-28-2018, 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by nosmarter
Oh from the religious books .. I thought you were referring to history books.
Looking into details regarding history in secularist school curriculum history channel and history dot com shows that they too are religious (aimed at creating a legion with a certain animalistic and greedy Godless mindset in this context) whereas the guidance that the Prophets received was aimed at elevating the individual to a respectable human being - their aim was never to get rich by invading others - rather to bring them the guidance.

@ChosenTCO - just governance requires that people are compelled - whether willingly or unwillingly - to comply with just laws - the verse regarding "no compulsion" is based on a debating context where argument and intellectual discourse is the main tool - not on a governmental context - and the life of the Prophet :saws: and that of the companions proves that justice was only upheld when care was taken to ensure that people obeyed Allah's laws - their many sacrifices in Allah's path proves the fact that they weren't in it for the money so theres no point in equating them with the likes of george bush and donald trump either.


@Raymann and @nosmarter - please don't bother to use actions attributed to the entity called "ISIS" as an argument against Islam - since it is proven beyond doubt that secularist british soldiers in the employ of the british crown were operating false flag actions in the region under the ISIS banner - and the fact that so many blackwater trainers and mercenaries were also operating there -not as xe/blackwater but under disguise - really raises eyebrows as to the intent of your examples.
Reply

Alamgir
08-29-2018, 04:23 AM
Originally Posted by nosmarter
1) That's maybe a good thing, no? Among other things, doesn't Sharia call for the death penalty for apostasy, criticizing Islam, homosexuality, adultery (for females) ..
2) That might account for poverty, but not for the rest of the issues menstioned
3) Those same countries, Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine - all thought it was ok to attack other countries as well and with no real provocation. They maybe shouldn't be surprised if there are some reprisals. I would add that I see no evidence that any of those attacks you mentioned are because they are Muslims.
1. No, because we must rule by the law of Allah Azza Wa Jal. The fact that we've only gone downhill after ceasing to implement it properly shows that it is better for us.

Yes, in an Islamic country ruled by Sharia, anyone who is discovered to be cheating on their spouse, committing homosexuality, blaspheming or declaring apostasy will be executed by the state (provided there is enough evidence). Their gender is irrelevant as per most scholars, but the few that bring it up say that women get a lighter punishment.

2. Yes it does. Almost all poor countries exhibit the same traits I listed.

3. Are you stupid? Is starving someone's country, bombing them, taking over their land and killing their brothers in other countries not enough of a provocation in your mind? Terrorism is bad but don't act like it just started happening randomly.

I don't care if it's because these countries are Muslim or not, Muslims and Islam are still receiving foul treatment because of these wars so that's irrelevant.
Reply

xboxisdead
08-29-2018, 06:41 AM
Originally Posted by nosmarter
Actually, I don't see how it's possible to follow the rules set forth by the Quran and Sharia and not wind up with a society like IS. For every gay man they threw off the top of a building, for every person they beheaded, for every sex slave they took - they can and did draw a straight line from their actions to supporting verses and rules in Islamic scripture. Add to that the validation for the treatment of women as inferior, death for apostasy, death for adultery, death for homosexuality, death for witchcraft, .. and the list goes on.

Some of you here I can see are just about as much against this as I am. This means to me that your own moral values are in conflict with what's commanded by the books - something I find encouraging. But unless you choose to ignore or reinterpret the words in the book (something which the Quran warns against), you have to admit that those rules make for a pretty appalling place to live.
You are the one to talk when you atheist, christian, Jewish people breed the highest crime in the world. You breed single motherhood raising children without fathers around, you breed anti-male society and worshiping the female sex, you breed gays, lesbianism, gender equality thus removing the difference between the sexes, female empowerment thus breeding family break ups in societies and confusion in gender roles, you breed greed, you breed self gratification, breed violence, anti-family, feminists, instead of pointing blames on us why don't you go ahead and help your boys who are in crisis right now..whose screams for help are ignored and muffled by the screams and shouts of girls and women rights and feminist. Why don't you help your men out there who committee the highest suicide rate in the world. Why don't you stop having your girls and women sexualising themselves and walking in the streets like bunch of ----s and prostitute? Your world is infested with self gratifications at the expense of everyone and pornography that fills the world.

One thing I love about Islam is that it protects family. Gives gender roles. RESPECT MASCULINITY! Islam protects lineage. You guys take lineage as a joke. Islam respect honors and promote brotherhoods. You guys will stab the next man who will be your competition of getting laid by the next hot woman in your wake. You are speaking of ignorance when you are bashing Islam. You know what? I would love to see practicing homosexuals thrown off the roof. I would love to see practicing witchcraft killed. As for women inferiority....women are different than men there are no denying that...however...men have a higher degree over women and it is designed for a reason and thus means they have higher responsibility than women and they are accounted for their tasks in the afterlife.

Let me assure you, ones you put women and men at the same level you have destroyed society and USA is a great example of it. Eventually not only men but YOUR OWN WOMEN will agree that men should be the leaders and not women and that men have higher degree than women. I DO NOT SEE YOU COMPLAIN when we say that mothers are superior to their children. Why don't you fight for equality between mothers and children before you fight for equality between husband and wife. I know what you are going to say...you are going to say you cannot compare mothers to wife and husband and or parent to husband and a wife and I can say ...YES I CAN.

As you can see...when the husband marries his wife he TAKES OVER THE ROLE OF THE MOTHER AND FATHER of that daughter and the mother who birthed her and held her in her womb for nine month and breast fed her. The husband TAKES THE STATUS OF THE WIFE'S MOTHER so in terms of marriage the husband is superior or have higher level over his wife BECAUSE NOW HE TOKE the throne of the wife's mother. Which means she obeys the husband OVER HER OWN MOTHER who birthed her. Ones you say that a wife and husband should be equal THEN YOU HAVE TO SAY A MOTHER AND A CHILD are equal. Ones you do that THEN THE FATHER AND SON OR DAUGHTER is equal. If you agree to that..THEN THE CITIZEN AND PRESIDENT are equal. If you say that then there is no one ruling the other we are all the same and all equal...which means we follow our whims and desires and we have to step over other people's whims and desires to make sure we succeed in our whims and desire.

LOOK AT THAT...USA is a perfect of example of how that is not working well. Your boys and men are getting destroyed...your women are having sex everywhere doing everything and anything her heart desires..children are suffering left and right...no family structure..no lineage..nothing and your society is lost. Please..do me a favor...keep that LIBERATION..AND MODERNIZATION AND CIVILIZATION to yourself. I don't want it. If that makes me a sexist, women hating bigoted jerk then I take this label with a pride in my face. I obey Allah and his prophets, I don't obey you or any non-Muslim out there.
Reply

fschmidt
08-29-2018, 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
I'd like to see how a perfect and peaceful (secure and tolerant) Muslim Country would look like.
How about the Abbasid Caliphate up until 833 (when the liberal/secular Muʿtazila started attacking religion, much like modern liberals).
Reply

nosmarter
08-29-2018, 10:01 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
@Raymann and @nosmarter - please don't bother to use actions attributed to the entity called "ISIS" as an argument against Islam - since it is proven beyond doubt that secularist british soldiers in the employ of the british crown were operating false flag actions in the region under the ISIS banner - and the fact that so many blackwater trainers and mercenaries were also operating there -not as xe/blackwater but under disguise - really raises eyebrows as to the intent of your examples.
Your allegation has no proof whatsoever, much less proof "beyond doubt". It's interesting that you're so repulsed by ISIS that you'd rather hold on to some half-backed childish conspiracy theory than accept what everyone else already knows: that they are Muslims. Not Jews, Americans, British, nor Knight Templars; but Muslims.
Reply

space
08-29-2018, 12:45 PM
What's wrong with Muslims? Well, it's a kind of obsession with materialism and they tend to live in isolation far away from others talking to themselves: I don't know anything neither do I want to know anything from anyone, just leave me alone don't bother me etc
Reply

Scimitar
08-29-2018, 01:36 PM
This thread^ turbo eye roll!!
Reply

Abz2000
08-29-2018, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by nosmarter
Your allegation has no proof whatsoever, much less proof "beyond doubt". It's interesting that you're so repulsed by ISIS that you'd rather hold on to some half-backed childish conspiracy theory than accept what everyone else already knows: that they are Muslims. Not Jews, Americans, British, nor Knight Templars; but Muslims.



The Americans, my interlocutor suspected, are trying to provoke an Iraqi civil war so that Sunni Muslim insurgents spend their energies killing their Shia co-religionists rather than soldiers of the Western occupation forces. "I swear to you that we have very good information," my source says, finger stabbing the air in front of him. "One young Iraqi man told us that he was trained by the Americans as a policeman in Baghdad and he spent 70 per cent of his time learning to drive and 30 per cent in weapons training. They said to him: 'Come back in a week.' When he went back, they gave him a mobile phone and told him to drive into a crowded area near a mosque and phone them. He waited in the car but couldn't get the right mobile signal. So he got out of the car to where he received a better signal. Then his car blew up."

Impossible, I think to myself. But then I remember how many times Iraqis in Baghdad have told me similar stories. These reports are believed even if they seem unbelievable. And I know where much of the Syrian information is gleaned: from the tens of thousands of Shia Muslim pilgrims who come to pray at the Sayda Zeinab mosque outside Damascus. These men and women come from the slums of Baghdad, Hillah and Iskandariyah as well as the cities of Najaf and Basra. Sunnis from Fallujah and Ramadi also visit Damascus to see friends and relatives and talk freely of American tactics in Iraq.

"There was another man, trained by the Americans for the police. He too was given a mobile and told to drive to an area where there was a crowd - maybe a protest - and to call them and tell them what was happening. Again, his new mobile was not working. So he went to a landline phone and called the Americans and told them: 'Here I am, in the place you sent me and I can tell you what's happening here.' And at that moment there was a big explosion in his car."

Just who these "Americans" might be, my source did not say. In the anarchic and panic-stricken world of Iraq, there are many US groups - including countless outfits supposedly working for the American military and the new Western-backed Iraqi Interior Ministry - who operate outside any laws or rules. No one can account for the murder of 191 university teachers and professors since the 2003 invasion - nor the fact that more than 50 former Iraqi fighter-bomber pilots who attacked Iran in the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war have been assassinated in their home towns in Iraq in the past three years.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...aq-475889.html






Mike Whitney: Provoking a Civil War in Iraq


...It’s impossible to know how much of the violence we see is real and how much is “black-ops”. Divide and rule is an adage that is as old as war itself and it is certainly being used in Iraq. In fact, the Bush administration commissioned the Rand Corporation to draw up a plan which promotes this very strategy....

http://www.palestinechronicle.com/mi...l-war-in-iraq/


The unorthodox tactic, which is seeing SAS units dressed in black and flying ISIS flags...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/59...ighter-Jihadis


Special forces soldiers allegedly murdered civilians and planted guns on their bodies

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7819006.html


BRAVE SAS heroes dressed up in BURKAS to carry out a daring raid

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...-jihadi-leader


ELITE SAS soldiers have enraged army bosses by posting pictures of themselves on Facebook – and could even face the SACK.

...Last week an SAS hero rubbished a £6million probe into shoot-to-kill policy in Afghanistan, saying: “We did nothing wrong.”

He said his regiment’s illegal killing of unarmed civilians was “an unwritten rule of our job”....

https://www.thesun.co.uk/uncategoriz...iest-missions/






https://www.islamicboard.com/world-a...gs#post2838512

A Texas Plumber’s Truck Lands in Syria
Photograph shows a Texas plumber's truck used by militants in Syria.

While some viewers speculated the photograph had been doctored, Jeff Oberholtzer of the Mark-1 plumbing company in Texas City confirmed it was indeed his company’s truck seen in the picture:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/th...und-the-world/


https://www.islamicboard.com/seeking...ml#post2964459


He (the deceiver) would appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and would spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! adhere (to the path of Truth).

http://www.hadithcollection.com/sahi...mber-7015.html




Reply

nosmarter
08-29-2018, 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000





The unorthodox tactic, which is seeing SAS units dressed in black and flying ISIS flags...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/59...ighter-Jihadis


Special forces soldiers allegedly murdered civilians and planted guns on their bodies

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7819006.html


BRAVE SAS heroes dressed up in BURKAS to carry out a daring raid

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...-jihadi-leader


ELITE SAS soldiers have enraged army bosses by posting pictures of themselves on Facebook – and could even face the SACK.

...Last week an SAS hero rubbished a £6million probe into shoot-to-kill policy in Afghanistan, saying: “We did nothing wrong.”

He said his regiment’s illegal killing of unarmed civilians was “an unwritten rule of our job”....

https://www.thesun.co.uk/uncategoriz...iest-missions/


A Texas Plumber’s Truck Lands in Syria
Photograph shows a Texas plumber's truck used by militants in Syria.

While some viewers speculated the photograph had been doctored, Jeff Oberholtzer of the Mark-1 plumbing company in Texas City confirmed it was indeed his company’s truck seen in the picture:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/th...und-the-world/




He (the deceiver) would appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and would spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! adhere (to the path of Truth).

http://www.hadithcollection.com/sahi...mber-7015.html
In your first article link, it shows that the SAS disguised themselves as the enemy to be able to reach them and sabotage their equipment. That's only proof that the Brits in this case are at war with Isis In no way dos the article suggest they invented Isis

In your second link, it shows that some rogue soldiers may have committed war crimes. But note that this is being brought to light not by the enemy, but by their own military establishment who decided to open an investigation. Again, that does nothing to prove your point here.

You were trying to say that the negativity that we attribute to Isis due to barbarity based on actions actually performed by secular Westerners not Isis. That's a very big claim and you really need to show some evidence of that. None of the above is very convincing.
Reply

Abz2000
08-29-2018, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by nosmarter
In your first article link, it shows that the SAS disguised themselves as the enemy to be able to reach them and sabotage their equipment. That's only proof that the Brits in this case are at war with Isis In no way dos the article suggest they invented Isis

In your second link, it shows that some rogue soldiers may have committed war crimes. But note that this is being brought to light not by the enemy, but by their own military establishment who decided to open an investigation. Again, that does nothing to prove your point here.

You were trying to say that the negativity that we attribute to Isis due to barbarity based on actions actually performed by secular Westerners not Isis. That's a very big claim and you really need to show some evidence of that. None of the above is very convincing.

Now you're talking .... like a hasbara troll...... one who's begining to prove the actual reason as to why he really joined the forum - which are not those stated in this introductory post: https://www.islamicboard.com/introdu...ml#post2997417

Originally Posted by nosmarter
In no way dos the article suggest they invented Isis
From which part of my post did you get this? Or are you attempting to spar with a shadow of your own invention now that you cannot answer according to the facts?

Comparing my initial post addressed to you and raymann and the resulting discussion is sufficient evidence of the fact that you are a fanboy and a posterboy of the lying secularist murderers - your quickly improvised use of the term "enemy" indicates psychological manipulation - since i and any other true Muslim do not consider those who strive for Allah's sake to be "enemies" - rather it is an attempted sporting team style hack aimed at the dumbed down in order to re-align them based on self-interest after the truth has become evident.

The fact that so many lies have been invented against Muslims and Islam - and that secularist extremist infidels have been proven to have been immersed in carrying out relentless false flag attacks using the banner of an entity called "ISIS" is enough to dismiss any negative criticism of Muslims and Islam based on actions attributed to such a group..... does that sound weird to you?

Btw. I've updated the post since then by adding further information.





False flag

A false flag is a covert operation designed to deceive; the deception creates the appearance of a particular party, group, or nation being responsible for some activity, disguising the actual source of responsibility.

The term "false flag" originally referred to pirate ships that flew flags of countries as a disguise to prevent their victims from fleeing or preparing for battle. Sometimes the flag would remain and the blame for the attack laid incorrectly on another country. The term today extends beyond naval encounters to include countries that organize attacks on themselves and make the attacks appear to be by enemy nations or terrorists, thus giving the nation that was supposedly attacked a pretext for domestic repression and foreign military aggression.[1]

Operations carried out during peacetime by civilian organizations, as well as covert government agencies, can (by extension) also be called false flag operations if they seek to hide the real organization behind an operation.



This US Douglas A-26 C Invader was painted in fake Cuban Air Force colors for the military invasion of Cuba undertaken by the CIA-sponsored paramilitary group Brigade 2506 in April 1961.

Use in warfare

As pretexts for war

As a tactic to undermine political opponents

Pseudo-operations

Espionage

Civilian usage

Psychology

Conspiracy theories

See also

References


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag



Operation Northwoods was a proposed false flag operation against the Cuban government that originated within the U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) of the United States government in 1962. The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other U.S. government operatives to commit acts of terrorism against American civilians and military targets, blaming it on the Cuban government, and using it to justify a war against Cuba. The plans detailed in the document included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.[2] The proposals were rejected by the Kennedy administration.[3][4][5]

At the time of the proposal, communists led by Fidel Castro had recently taken power in Cuba. The operation proposed creating public support for a war against Cuba by blaming it for terrorist acts that would actually be perpetrated by the U.S. Government.[6] To this end, Operation Northwoods proposals recommended hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:

The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.

Several other proposals were included within Operation Northwoods, including real or simulated actions against various U.S. military and civilian targets. The operation recommended developing a "Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods



Fact:
illegal secularist invaders have been killing people in Syria under the guise of an entity called I.S.I.S.

Claim:
It was to fight against an entity named I.S.I.S


Despite the fact that on occasions preceding these news articles - multiple witnesses have been coming forward claiming and spreading the word that British and American mercenaries/soldiers/ex-soldiers who are mercenaries -are illegally operating under the guise of I.S.I.S some of which have u.s army tattoos on their arms whilst swaggering through the streets - and some of which have been killed by mujahideen and found to have u.s army tattoos on their unclean bodies.

Do you expect me to bring you an admission by the secularist liars who carried out the false flag on 9/11 and illegally invaded Iraq based on the W.M.D falsehood and murdered over a million people - that they are carrying out false flag operations under the guise of I.S.I.S in order to discredit Islam, Muslims, and Jihaad for Allah's sake?
Reply

Futuwwa
08-29-2018, 06:18 PM
If I answered this thread in good faith and tried to have a serious, honest discussion, would you?

Or would you accuse me of denial and obfuscation if what I say doesn't conform with your preconceived notions, like you did in your Rape Culture thread?
Reply

nosmarter
08-29-2018, 06:52 PM
You've resorted to ad-hominem attacks to defend your points. That's to me a clear sign you've run out of facts to back up your claim. But it matters not, at least I understand better why you think as you do. I take comfort in the fact that you and others seem to abhor ISIS, but I wish that others like yourself would stand up against such people rather than promote an elaborate conspiracy theory involving "secular Westerners" and thus avoiding the issue.

Originally Posted by Abz2000
Now you're talking .... like a hasbara troll...... one who's begining to prove the actual reason as to why he really joined the forum - which are not those stated in this introductory post: https://www.islamicboard.com/introdu...ml#post2997417



From which part of my post did you get this? Or are you attempting to spar with a shadow of your own invention now that you cannot answer according to the facts?

Comparing my initial post addressed to you and raymann and the resulting discussion is sufficient evidence of the fact that you are a fanboy and a posterboy of the lying secularist murderers - your quickly improvised use of the term "enemy" indicates psychological manipulation - since i and any other true Muslim do not consider those who strive for Allah's sake to be "enemies" - rather it is an attempted sporting team style hack aimed at the dumbed down in order to re-align them based on self-interest after the truth has become evident.

The fact that so many lies have been invented against Muslims and Islam - and that secularist extremist infidels have been proven to have been immersed in carrying out relentless false flag attacks using the banner of an entity called "ISIS" is enough to dismiss any negative criticism of Muslims and Islam based on actions attributed to such a group..... does that sound weird to you?

Btw. I've updated the post since then by adding further information.





False flag

A false flag is a covert operation designed to deceive; the deception creates the appearance of a particular party, group, or nation being responsible for some activity, disguising the actual source of responsibility.

The term "false flag" originally referred to pirate ships that flew flags of countries as a disguise to prevent their victims from fleeing or preparing for battle. Sometimes the flag would remain and the blame for the attack laid incorrectly on another country. The term today extends beyond naval encounters to include countries that organize attacks on themselves and make the attacks appear to be by enemy nations or terrorists, thus giving the nation that was supposedly attacked a pretext for domestic repression and foreign military aggression.[1]

Operations carried out during peacetime by civilian organizations, as well as covert government agencies, can (by extension) also be called false flag operations if they seek to hide the real organization behind an operation.



This US Douglas A-26 C Invader was painted in fake Cuban Air Force colors for the military invasion of Cuba undertaken by the CIA-sponsored paramilitary group Brigade 2506 in April 1961.

Use in warfare

As pretexts for war

As a tactic to undermine political opponents

Pseudo-operations

Espionage

Civilian usage

Psychology

Conspiracy theories

See also

References


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag



Operation Northwoods was a proposed false flag operation against the Cuban government that originated within the U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) of the United States government in 1962. The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other U.S. government operatives to commit acts of terrorism against American civilians and military targets, blaming it on the Cuban government, and using it to justify a war against Cuba. The plans detailed in the document included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.[2] The proposals were rejected by the Kennedy administration.[3][4][5]

At the time of the proposal, communists led by Fidel Castro had recently taken power in Cuba. The operation proposed creating public support for a war against Cuba by blaming it for terrorist acts that would actually be perpetrated by the U.S. Government.[6] To this end, Operation Northwoods proposals recommended hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:

The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.

Several other proposals were included within Operation Northwoods, including real or simulated actions against various U.S. military and civilian targets. The operation recommended developing a "Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods



Fact:
illegal secularist invaders have been killing people in Syria under the guise of an entity called I.S.I.S.

Claim:
It was to fight against an entity named I.S.I.S


Despite the fact that on occasions preceding these news articles - multiple witnesses have been coming forward claiming and spreading the word that British and American mercenaries/soldiers/ex-soldiers who are mercenaries -are illegally operating under the guise of I.S.I.S some of which have u.s army tattoos on their arms whilst swaggering through the streets - and some of which have been killed by mujahideen and found to have u.s army tattoos on their unclean bodies.

Do you expect me to bring you an admission by the secularist liars who carried out the false flag on 9/11 and illegally invaded Iraq based on the W.M.D falsehood and murdered over a million people - that they are carrying out false flag operations under the guise of I.S.I.S in order to discredit Islam, Muslims, and Jihaad for Allah's sake?
Reply

Abz2000
08-29-2018, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by nosmarter
You've resorted to ad-hominem attacks to defend your points. That's to me a clear sign you've run out of facts to back up your claim. But it matters not, at least I understand better why you think as you do. I take comfort in the fact that you and others seem to abhor ISIS, but I wish that others like yourself would stand up against such people rather than promote an elaborate conspiracy theory involving "secular Westerners" and thus avoiding the issue.
There's no ad homeninem whatsoever - simply a conformation of what i believed to be the case - which i posted on the "new atheist" thread (linked above).
A clear reading of my posts on this thread and your lame responses should make it a little less fuzzy for any who hasn't seen through the game yet.

May Allah's curse be upon those who lie.
Reply

Raymann
08-29-2018, 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
If I answered this thread in good faith and tried to have a serious, honest discussion, would you?

Or would you accuse me of denial and obfuscation if what I say doesn't conform with your preconceived notions, like you did in your Rape Culture thread?
The whole point of being here is to have serious and honest discussions.
You are most welcome to bring your point of view and I can assure you I let you know mine, whether you like it or not it's up to you.
Reply

Abz2000
08-29-2018, 08:12 PM
Some people still think that this is a case of governments with public interests bickering with each other - however - those who care to study a little history will come to the realisation that the corruption of britain was a prelude to the ownership of governments by usury practising banks:

Just as EIC was then the darling companionship of the rich and influential heirs and barons of england - just as America became the country owned and established by the owners of EIC, so erik prince's blackwater/xe is now - only that the control has -as is inevitable- concentrated further into the hands a small oligarchical corporate structure.

---


We still talk about the British conquering India, but that phrase disguises a more sinister reality. It was not the British government that seized India at the end of the 18th century, but a dangerously unregulated private company headquartered in one small office, five windows wide, in London, and managed in India by an unstable sociopath – Clive.

....It was at this moment that the East India Company (EIC) ceased to be a conventional corporation, trading and silks and spices, and became something much more unusual. Within a few years, 250 company clerks backed by the military force of 20,000 locally recruited Indian soldiers had become the effective rulers of Bengal. An international corporation was transforming itself into an aggressive colonial power.....

....Using its rapidly growing security force – its army had grown to 260,000 men by 1803 – it swiftly subdued and seized an entire subcontinent. Astonishingly, this took less than half a century. The first serious territorial conquests began in Bengal in 1756; 47 years later, the company’s reach extended as far north as the Mughal capital of Delhi, and almost all of India south of that city was by then effectively ruled from a boardroom in the City of London. “What honour is left to us?” asked a Mughal official named Narayan Singh, shortly after 1765, “when we have to take orders from a handful of traders who have not yet learned to wash their bottoms?”.....

When it suited, the EIC made much of its legal separation from the government. It argued forcefully, and successfully, that the document signed by Shah Alam – known as the Diwani – was the legal property of the company, not the Crown, even though the government had spent a massive sum on naval and military operations protecting the EIC’s Indian acquisitions. But the MPs who voted to uphold this legal distinction were not exactly neutral: nearly a quarter of them held company stock, which would have plummeted in value had the Crown taken over. For the same reason, the need to protect the company from foreign competition became a major aim of British foreign policy.

The transaction depicted in the painting was to have catastrophic consequences. As with all such corporations, then as now, the EIC was answerable only to its shareholders. With no stake in the just governance of the region, or its long-term wellbeing, the company’s rule quickly turned into the straightforward pillage of Bengal, and the rapid transfer westwards of its wealth.

Before long the province, already devastated by war, was struck down by the famine of 1769, then further ruined by high taxation. Company tax collectors were guilty of what today would be described as human rights violations. A senior official of the old Mughal regime in Bengal wrote in his diaries: “Indians were tortured to disclose their treasure; cities, towns and villages ransacked; jaghires and provinces purloined: these were the ‘delights’ and ‘religions’ of the directors and their servants.”

Bengal’s wealth rapidly drained into Britain, while its prosperous weavers and artisans were coerced “like so many slaves” by their new masters, and its markets flooded with British products. A proportion of the loot of Bengal went directly into Clive’s pocket. He returned to Britain with a personal fortune – then valued at £234,000 – that made him the richest self-made man in Europe. After the Battle of Plassey in 1757, a victory that owed more to treachery, forged contracts, bankers and bribes than military prowess, he transferred to the EIC treasury no less than £2.5m seized from the defeated rulers of Bengal – in today’s currency, around £23m for Clive and £250m for the company.

No great sophistication was required. The entire contents of the Bengal treasury were simply loaded into 100 boats and punted down the Ganges from the Nawab of Bengal’s palace to Fort William, the company’s Calcutta headquarters. A portion of the proceeds was later spent rebuilding Powis.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...porate-raiders


Just as they used disenchanted hindus to foment turmoil and disintegration and assist them before - so now they use disenchanted "sunnis/shiahs" to unwittingly do the same.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurangzeb


Anyone bothering to research and critically study will realise that henry every was working for the morally and financially bankrupt british government as an agent of the east india company when he carried out thr biggest gold robbery in history.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganj-i-Sawai


The words and advice:

He (the deceiver) would appear on the way between Syria and Iraq and would spread mischief right and left. O servant of Allah! adhere (to the path of Truth).

http://www.hadithcollection.com/sahi...mber-7015.html


Ring more true and solid than ever before....
Reply

Futuwwa
08-30-2018, 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
The whole point of being here is to have serious and honest discussions.
You are most welcome to bring your point of view and I can assure you I let you know mine, whether you like it or not it's up to you.
If you want a serious and honest discussion, you will not set up the discussion in such a way that it leads to a predetermined conclusion. Which you do when you ask such a massively loaded question as "What's wrong with Muslims?", implying that the cause of the relative underdevelopment* of Islamic countries is something inherently wrong with Muslims, rather than something else. As it happens, I don't agree with that premise in the first place.


(*Assuming that Islamic countries are relatively underdeveloped as a group to begin with by global standards, which is a dubious assertion to begin with.)
Reply

Raymann
08-30-2018, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
If you want a serious and honest discussion, you will not set up the discussion in such a way that it leads to a predetermined conclusion. Which you do when you ask such a massively loaded question as "What's wrong with Muslims?", implying that the cause of the relative underdevelopment* of Islamic countries is something inherently wrong with Muslims, rather than something else. As it happens, I don't agree with that premise in the first place.
If you went ahead to the next sentence I asked:
Or "What's wrong with people living in Muslim Countries?"
Obviously I don't know why the failure in Muslim Countries. My assumption is that people in the countries are the responsible for it.
Since they are "Muslim Countries" I assume it could be Muslims and this could mean the religion is responsible unless Muslims don't practice the religion as they should.
The option "people in Islamic Countries", takes away the responsibility on the religion and blame the people, no matter the religion they practice.
Does it make sense now?
I'm not myself putting the blame on anyone, I just asked the question.
Reply

Futuwwa
08-30-2018, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
If you went ahead to the next sentence I asked:
Or "What's wrong with people living in Muslim Countries?"
Obviously I don't know why the failure in Muslim Countries. My assumption is that people in the countries are the responsible for it.
Since they are "Muslim Countries" I assume it could be Muslims and this could mean the religion is responsible unless Muslims don't practice the religion as they should.
The option "people in Islamic Countries", takes away the responsibility on the religion and blame the people, no matter the religion they practice.
Does it make sense now?
I'm not myself putting the blame on anyone, I just asked the question.
Same thing, you're assuming something is wrong with the people themselves. That is an unwarranted assumption, and none of the several options you offer on how to spin it (as being because of, despite of, or irrespective of Islam) change that.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by nosmarter
Actually, I don't see how it's possible to follow the rules set forth by the Quran and Sharia and not wind up with a society like IS. For every gay man they threw off the top of a building, for every person they beheaded, for every sex slave they took - they can and did draw a straight line from their actions to supporting verses and rules in Islamic scripture. Add to that the validation for the treatment of women as inferior, death for apostasy, death for adultery, death for homosexuality, death for witchcraft, .. and the list goes on.

Some of you here I can see are just about as much against this as I am. This means to me that your own moral values are in conflict with what's commanded by the books - something I find encouraging. But unless you choose to ignore or reinterpret the words in the book (something which the Quran warns against), you have to admit that those rules make for a pretty appalling place to live.
No, they are not. Scriptural literalism isn't an Islamic extremist position. It's an Islamic mainstream position. Those of us who reject ISIS (i.e. almost every Muslim) don't do it because we are less literalist than ISIS, but because we don't believe such a literalist premise leads to what ISIS is doing. Your assertion that we are "reinterpreting", while presumably ISIS isn't, is an entirely arbitrary distinction.
Reply

Raymann
08-30-2018, 08:49 PM
Your comment illustrates all that is wrong with some Muslims today.
You are an Islamist, a xenophobe, a racist, an ignorant and a liar, all wrapped into one.
Where do I start?
You say that women have a lower degree, I guess that means a lower I.Q.
WRONG
https://www.livescience.com/21647-me...iq-scores.html
There are many articles and studies about it if you care doing some reading and catching up.

Originally Posted by xboxisdead
You are the one to talk when you atheist, christian, Jewish people breed the highest crime in the world.
Funny you included atheist in the group,
BIG MISTAKE
Atheist have always rate the lowest in any serious studies about crime rate.
Do some research if you don't want to show your ignorance to the world.


Originally Posted by xboxisdead
You breed single motherhood raising children without fathers around, you breed anti-male society and worshiping the female sex, you breed gays, lesbianism, gender equality thus removing the difference between the sexes, female empowerment thus breeding family break ups in societies and confusion in gender roles, you breed greed, you breed self gratification, breed violence, anti-family, feminists, instead of pointing blames on us why don't you go ahead and help your boys who are in crisis right now..whose screams for help are ignored and muffled by the screams and shouts of girls and women rights and feminist. Why don't you help your men out there who committee the highest suicide rate in the world. Why don't you stop having your girls and women sexualising themselves and walking in the streets like bunch of ----s and prostitute? Your world is infested with self gratifications at the expense of everyone and pornography that fills the world.
Where do you live? In a jungle?
Have you ever had any human relation with a westerner?
Where do you get all that nonsense?
You've been brainwashed with some extremist ideologies that don't apply to the real world.
You need help, a mind is a terrible thing to waste, well, too late for you.


Originally Posted by xboxisdead
Please..do me a favor...keep that LIBERATION..AND MODERNIZATION AND CIVILIZATION to yourself. I don't want it. If that makes me a sexist, women hating bigoted jerk then I take this label with a pride in my face. I obey Allah and his prophets, I don't obey you or any non-Muslim out there.
So you're saying that you obey Allah and his prophets, does that mean that Allah instructed you to be a sexist, women hating bigoted jerk ?
Well, I'm not so sure that Allah is so proud of you wearing that label with so much pride in your face.
Reply

anatolian
08-30-2018, 08:51 PM
And the OP is right in assuming there must be something wrong with Muslims for not having the true Islamic systems in their countries. Who can be more responsible of the condition of a country other than it's people? If the muslim people of that country are not following and applying the true teachings of Islam to rule but following and applying a corrupt version of the religion that is dictated by some group who hld the power what would you expect other than corruption?
Reply

Raymann
08-30-2018, 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Same thing, you're assuming something is wrong with the people themselves. That is an unwarranted assumption, and none of the several options you offer on how to spin it (as being because of, despite of, or irrespective of Islam) change that.
Yes, I'm assuming something is wrong.The question is, what is wrong?
Can you answer the question and stop policing my grammar.
Rephrase the question to your own liking.
Let me help you with some options.
How come Muslims Countries do so bad when they get the privilege to have Allah as their guide?
or, can you name the problems that impede Muslims countries from fully develop?
Can you now answer the question?
Reply

Junon
08-30-2018, 10:10 PM
Salaam

You've been answered. Best summary

Al Khorasani


1. We don't practice Islam properly anymore (e.g nobody rules by Sharia in it's entirety)
2. General 3rd world problems (e.g corruption, brain drain and poverty).
3. Everyone considers it okay to invade/attack our countries (e.g Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq).
Give it a rest with your 'white mans burden' rhetoric. Don't like the answers your getting? Leave.

And do try to be more original with the questions you ask. Your little different to previous atheists that infest this forum from time to time, but like I said earlier, internet atheists are predictable, you've met one you've met them all.
Reply

nosmarter
08-30-2018, 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
..
No, they are not. Scriptural literalism isn't an Islamic extremist position. It's an Islamic mainstream position. Those of us who reject ISIS (i.e. almost every Muslim) don't do it because we are less literalist than ISIS, but because we don't believe such a literalist premise leads to what ISIS is doing. Your assertion that we are "reinterpreting", while presumably ISIS isn't, is an entirely arbitrary distinction.
I'm not meaning to argue, Futuwwa, but this part I don't understand - and it's not the first time I've heard this. Between the Quran,the Hadiths, and the compilation of Sharia rulings in "The Reliance of the Traveller", it looked to me that there is no mistaking that killing people for adultery, blasphemy, apostasy, and even witchcraft is justified by scripture. As appalling as cutting the heads of of people on TV by ISIS was, their actions seem to draw from verses in the Quran directly if read literally. And let's not even get started with the captured sex slaves.

Are you suggesting that these things are not okayed by scripture, or are you saying that they should be interpreted without taking them quite so literally?
Reply

Raymann
08-30-2018, 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by Junon
Give it a rest with your 'white mans burden' rhetoric. Don't like the answers your getting? Leave.

And do try to be more original with the questions you ask. Your little different to previous atheists that infest this forum from time to time, but like I said earlier, internet atheists are predictable, you've met one you've met them all.
I specifically answered the same message that you pointed out and accepted that answer as the most popular one.
I guess you didn't pay attention
I'll leave when I feel like it not when you decide it's time.
Who made you the police of the forum by the way ?
My questions are not meant to be original but to satisfy a PERSONAL INTRIGUE.
So you hate atheists that question your beliefs ?
What are you afraid of ?
If it make you feel more comfortable I'm not here to question your religion or any other.
Unlike you I don't prejudge people or groups ("you've met one you've met them all").
The reason I'm here is not to question your religion but the actions of the people that practice the religion when those actions affect the world that I live.
Don't take personal, is not your fault that 19 hijackers destroyed two buildings in the city that I live.
It's not your fault that every building of relative importance is surrounded by protection pillars to protect them from Islamists terrorists.
You don't have to feel ashamed if sometimes I ask a question that involves the religion you practice.
No need to be defensive, you don't have to answer my questions nor reading my threads.
Reply

Futuwwa
08-30-2018, 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Yes, I'm assuming something is wrong.The question is, what is wrong?
Can you answer the question and stop policing my grammar.
Rephrase the question to your own liking.
Let me help you with some options.
How come Muslims Countries do so bad when they get the privilege to have Allah as their guide?
or, can you name the problems that impede Muslims countries from fully develop?
Can you now answer the question?
Alrighty then.

First of all, as you said, there are 50-something countries in the world with a Muslim majority. Countries in a band stretching from West Africa to Indonesia. Countries that are vastly different and have no common denominator apart from Islam. Countries that are vastly different in development level, and rate of development, disproving any notion of universal Islamic backwardness. No, I don't have any watertight grand unified Theory of Everything on why some societies manage to develop faster and farther than others. Neither do you, for if you did, you'd be the greatest sociologist of all time.

Some specific causes though.

Some are postcolonial states that suffer from all the usual problems of postcolonial states of any religious demographic composition: Artificial states, inherited colonial-era institutions created to serve the colonial overlord.

Those that have developed (and there are many) have often suffered from the growth pains of doing so. The socioeconomic changes brought by developing from pre-industrial to industrial cause all kinds of social tension. Just try to count how many Middle Eastern monarchies fell during last century! Europe went through much the same process during the 1800s, and the carnage was immense. The social tension caused by labour-capital relations in European indusrial society gave rise to Communism, which set the world on fire. Europe, though, went through that process at a time when it was already at the height of its relative power, and could relieve the social tension by letting its poor and destitute colonize the rest of the world. Currently developing countries don't have that advantage, but must instead often contend with simultaneously being the playgrounds of the geopolitical games of the powerful. Thus, development is fragile and always risks bringing about its own end.

Just two things from the top of my head, it's getting late over here.

For that matter, what does "fully developed" mean? How is that even a relevant concept? Development is a constant process, there is no end goal to it, no end of history. Two hundred years from now, every single country that exists today will look abysmally backwards to the denizens of whatever countries are the most developed then.
Reply

xboxisdead
08-31-2018, 12:06 AM
Who cares about some degree or fact women can outbeat men in education, if it was based on that all prophets peace be upon them would have being female. All leaderships since the creation of humans would have being female and Allah (Subhanahuu Wa Talaa) would have said women are the protectors and maintainers of men and that the husband must obey his wife and had he commanded any creation to prostrate to anyone he would have commanded the husband to prostrate to his wife. Allah (Subhanahuu Wa Talaa) would have easily said that. He would also say that the wife pays mahir to the husband and the husband can decide how much money he wants for marriage and Allah would have said the husband have full custody of the children and that the paradise is underneath the feet of the father. Allah would have also said that the wife must be good to her husband (which by the way applies regardless of the gender role switch ;D;D;D) and and and..and also the husband must protect his wife's wealth and the husband does not have to pay any means to the wife and the husband cannot leave the house without the permission of his wife and and.....

But Allah did not. Did he? Show me anywhere that he did. Proof that he did. Having a good degree does not negate that the leader belongs to the man, he is the head of the household and that the wife obeys her husband. If you are going to use the logic of education based on how good you do in university and highschool..let me assure you that children can outsmart their parents....and some children are smarter, more articulate than their parents and they have better education than their parents and they EVEN SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN SMARTER THAN THEIR PARENTS..does that mean the parents must obey the children and the children are the head of the household? Your argument and your scientific study proves nothing and in fact it shows why your country is going to flames.



Atheist are also the lower level of hellfire.




The above sentence completely removes any credibility to whatever you are going to say next. You are like that ostrich who wish to hide her head inside the whole of a ground. I do not care what you say at that point from going on..you lost in my opinion value to what you are going to say. Unless your word is shahada and you entered Islam and you are studying Islam..anything that comes out of your mouth to me is hot hair and I do not care period what you say next.




As for calling me sexist or whatever...I assure you that Allah have zero tolerance to sexism, racism, etc. But what I said above and you being the ultra troll that you are, is because my point of view toward gender role and gender difference goes against your inner nature all together , is why you will put me under your eyes as sexist pig. I do not care what some disbeliever calls me or labels me. My faith is in Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) and it is strong and I know that Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) have already told us that there is gender roles and there are differences in them and I believe in Allah and I obey him and I don't believe IN YOU OR OBEY YOU. So I said you can call me sexist as much as you want, but it will not change reality or change the ruling. There is gender difference and whether you love it or hate or whether you think women are superior over men because of her education level it makes no difference to me. I have proof that men have higher degree over women and that proof is sufficient by the fact that Allah have send all prophets to be males and not females and Allah himself said so in Qura'an. I ASSURE YOU THAT THERE COULD BE ONE OF THE SMARTEST HUMANS ON EARTH TO BE A a woman...it still makes no difference.....she could be so smart that she could bend metal by her mental power and she could talk 80,000 words a minute when she was 5 month old...in Islam she still have to obey her husband and he have a higher degree over her. That is it! Discussion closed.

Anything else you wish to discuss?

Hate it! Bite on your finger! BITE IT HARD! MEN AND WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT AND IN THE END MEN PLAY IMPORTANT ROLE THAT ONLY THEY CAN PLAY IT! As much as you hate the fact we need men to play that role..but we need men to play that role (only he can play that role) ...you know why we need MEN to play that role..BECAUSE Allah (Subhanahu Wa talaa) himself will make it that you need men to play that role and women will fail in playing that role. Even if you insult Allah and you put your middle finger on him and you hit your head on the frying pan but Allah will make sure humanity will need men to play that role. And whether you like it or not...society will need men as leaders..hate it..pull your eyes from your socket..do whatever you want....men will always lead.

By the way....IN AMERICA THEY WOULD RATHER HAVE DONALD TRUMP LEAD OVER HILLARY CLINTON BECAUSE SHE IS A FEMALE!!! AHAHAHAHAH EVEN YOU GUYS...NON-MUSLIM PICK AND CHOOSE a male to lead a country and you even mock your female sex to say she is not fit to lead.

In Islam we do not mock the sexes we respect their roles and we understand the difference between them and give them their roles based on their nature. The non-Muslims who work had to pervert the ying and the yang is in my opinion a fool and deserve what they get.

Instead of coming here wasting your time and our time..why don't you form a rally and help your men and boys who are in deep crisis. A nation that disrespect masculinity and the role it gives is a nation that I have no respect to or care to listen to what it says.
Reply

Abz2000
08-31-2018, 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by anatolian
And the OP is right in assuming there must be something wrong with Muslims for not having the true Islamic systems in their countries. Who can be more responsible of the condition of a country other than it's people? If the muslim people of that country are not following and applying the true teachings of Islam to rule but following and applying a corrupt version of the religion that is dictated by some group who hld the power what would you expect other than corruption?
But you must admit that even though the people are not in a finiancially better position due to the corruption of their shill leaders who are hostages to usurers (despite their countries bringing forth abundant resources which are depleted via usury, corruption, and conutinuous patching up due to wars which feed america's military business and the rothschilds' usury business) the Muslims are generally in a much better position in terms of decency and uprightness, and bringing their children up to be just and upright in contrast to their non-Muslim counterparts who are mostly dupes of the satanic media machine who are almost (sometimes even more) corrupt than their leaders.
I mean - that Donald Trump was elected by Americans is a testimony to the corruption and stupidity of America - which is usually held up as an example of progress by capitalist money worshippers.

In terms of maturity in biological evolution - future Muslims are set to take up the human banner whilst the corrupt non-Muslims devolve into serpents - as long as we hold fast to the guidance of the Most Wise Creator of the heavens and of the earth Who knows the past, the present, and the future - and as we leave this earth (as everybody inevitably does ) we leave with our souls in tact - not facing the retribution for the evil that kufr earns against itself.


- - - Updated - - -
@nosmarter


So you would like to become an ambassador to Muslim majority populations on behalf of:

Originally Posted by nosmarter
adultery, blasphemy, apostasy, and even witchcraft
... because of you concern for them?

It just shows where you stand on the perversion scale really.
Reply

Zafran
08-31-2018, 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by nosmarter
As appalling as cutting the heads of of people on TV by ISIS
Maybe they got that from Abu Gharib.

So your basically saying that your going to reinterpret something and that is going to stop ISIS? Just like re reading of Marxism was going to stop the violence of the Bolsheviks, or the french revolutionaries were just waiting for someone to tell them that didn't need to guillotine so many people - Or the Iraq war could have easily been stopped if the TV stopped lying - what planet do you live on????? pure robotic reductionist at its best.

Dont forget the Muslims living all Over the world that are not ISIS like the 2 billion Christians who are not alt righter or KKK members or the atheists that are not murderous Bolsheviks.

Heres a better alternative - 1 - dont invade foreign countries 2 - Dont make things worse by selling weapons to every Tom, dick and Abdul 3 - not everything can be reduced one switch just maybe there are on the ground factors and contextual realities that makes things like KKK members and Isis and your favorite murderous secular atheists like political, economic and social problems and people look for quick fixes and demagogues are happy to help and presto you have Isis, Bolsheviks and KKK members. Maybe Trump fits with these guys as well.
Reply

fschmidt
08-31-2018, 07:28 AM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Erm, what? Might be worth raising this in the Helpdesk section if you feel you're being 'censored'. I'll be happy to discuss any issues there.
I posted to Helpdesk 4 days ago and have not yet gotten a response. Another example of what is wrong with Muslims.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
08-31-2018, 07:45 AM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
I posted to Helpdesk 4 days ago and have not yet gotten a response. Another example of what is wrong with Muslims.
I’d like you to take a chill pill and relax. I haven’t yet looked at the issue at the help desk because I’ve been a bit occupied. I’ve said I’ll respond to you and I will.
Reply

Raymann
08-31-2018, 09:42 AM
Thanks for your response

Originally Posted by Futuwwa
For that matter, what does "fully developed" mean? How is that even a relevant concept? Development is a constant process, there is no end goal to it, no end of history. Two hundred years from now, every single country that exists today will look abysmally backwards to the denizens of whatever countries are the most developed then.
We don't need to be too precise here. In general I would consider a country fully developed when certain achievements have been met:
The infrastructure covers most of the country. That means most ot the country is covered with paved roads. Most houses are constructed to a certain standard. Most houses have access to water, electricity and sewer system.
Education is available to most people.
There is an adequate coverage of health insurance for the population.
Most people earn enough money to stay above the poverty line.
The poverty line is one of the most telling indicators that a country has achieved full development.
Qatar is a very rich country but 60 % of the population are poor immigrant workers, that is not a fully developed country to me.
On the other hand most European countries are fully developed, you won't find shanty towns easily on them.
As you said, the standard of living can change and in the near future the indicators to determine what is a fully developed country might change but we deal with the future when the future comes.
Reply

fschmidt
08-31-2018, 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Development is a constant process, there is no end goal to it, no end of history. Two hundred years from now, every single country that exists today will look abysmally backwards to the denizens of whatever countries are the most developed then.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. Consider the changes in Europe following the fall of the Roman Empire. I think this most closely matches what we should expect for the West in the next 200 years.
Reply

beleiver
08-31-2018, 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Yes, I'm assuming something is wrong.The question is, what is wrong?
Can you answer the question and stop policing my grammar.
Rephrase the question to your own liking.
Let me help you with some options.
How come Muslims Countries do so bad when they get the privilege to have Allah as their guide?
or, can you name the problems that impede Muslims countries from fully develop?
Can you now answer the question?
oops i like your post by accident, for the record, i didnt much like your post...

but while i am here....there are no 'Muslim' countries...Allaha is at war with all countries as we speak, All Muslims are prohibited for consuming usury, and the Quran clearly states He will wage war against all that consume usury, Muslims included...

You have to look at the world in general to understand this problem with 'Muslims'
Reply

Raymann
08-31-2018, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
Anything else you wish to discuss?
Not with you, not unless you learn the meaning of "discussion".
Not unless you learn IQ is not a measure of your education but a measure of your "INTELLIGENCE"
Not unless you admit that you're wrong and women and men have pretty much the same IQ level.
Men are physically stronger, no doubt about that but that doesn't make them more intelligent.
Are you strong enough to admit when you're wrong ?
Why don't you show us then.
Reply

Alamgir
08-31-2018, 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by nosmarter
This means to me that your own moral values are in conflict with what's commanded by the books - something I find encouraging.
Get ready to become discouraged, because we agree with every single law in the Quran and Sunnah.

Originally Posted by nosmarter
Oh from the religious books .. I thought you were referring to history books.
They are history books you idiot.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Raymann
Who is everyone? America?, the Western countries? or the whole non-Islamic world?

"It's up to you guys": Again, I had nothing to do with it.

Let me understand, attacking any Muslim Country is like attacking your own country? Is that what you're saying?
Using the same logic, when members of the Muslim Countries (ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Qaeda, etc), attack non-Muslims or other countries then you should stand up and take responsibility for the atrocities committed by your own people.
Do not tell me they are not real Muslims just because they don't act like you would.
They pray 5 times a day, memorize the Quran and follow it even more in depth than you'll ever do.

I truly believe that most Muslims don't think like you do (hopefully) and I don't blame them for the actions of a few extremists but you cannot use double standards and accuse others for the very same think that you do yourself.
Islam originated around Mecca and expanded around the world by invading other countries and not by sharing religious flyers.
The allies went after Van Laden, the Taliban and Saddam Hussein and they left after they finished their mission, they didn't attempt to conquer those countries. I'm not saying that I agree with their actions but those are the facts.
Palestine was never a country by the way and Israel could have easily kept all the territory gained after the 6 day war but they didn't, they just want to have a piece of land for themselves and I understand it.
Everyone is just as it sounds, everyone. Even so called "Muslim" countries consider it okay to attack people just for being religious. It's not right.

You guys are the ones who vote for your leaders, so it has everything to do with you. The solution to point number 3 is simple, vote for leaders who don't want to wage war against us.

Yes, you attack one of us you have attacked all of us. Have you learnt anything from history?

We have spoken out against what those groups do dozens of times, but many of you are deaf, dumb and blind so no matter what we do, you won't notice it.

Many of them aren't religious, this myth has been disproved numerous times. Stop barking without knowing the facts. I'll recommend this playlist to get you started on your journey of getting an education:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...iDlfeq5awNHljf

For well over a decade the early Muslims did not engage in warfare. Do you know what happened? We were oppressed by, so Allah Azza Wa Jal gave us permission to fight our enemies, and we defeated them. Ever since then, we engaged in empire tactics as was the standard of that time. Many times our enemies had attacked us first, but other times we had attacked them first. That was the way things were back then, if you didn't conquer, you got conquered. You cannot compare that time to our time, because now we have organisations like the UN, and the default state of all nations is to be at peace, not war.

Who supported Bin Laden, the Taliban and Saddam Hussein in the first place? It was the US and her allies. You're only proving my point. Not only that, but when you fought against them, you massacred our people.

Country or not, Israel has no right to exist because most of it's people are not native to the area, and it actively oppresses the native population (the Palestinians). If you want the Jews to have their own country, allot them some land from your own territory, not ours.

Israel gave back most of the land they took after the Six Day War because they knew they couldn't hold onto it. The military pressure applied in 1973 is what made them cave in and hand over what was at the time more than half of Israel's land mass.
Reply

anatolian
08-31-2018, 03:06 PM
Allah says in the Quran that Allah does not change the condition of a people until they change their own condition (13:11). Here we understand that the first responsibles of our conditions (whatever they are) are ourselves. The rest is history, politics, conflicts etc..but the ultimate reason is our ownselves.

What should muslims do? We but must read, understand and live the noble Quran. Otherwise we have no option other than having corrupt “Islamic” societies and a corrupt Islamic society is the worst thing that can be on the planet. Other societies have their half true systems but since they dont have a as strong faith as we muslims have in our systems, they are more open to progress. However, we muslims have the full faith for the unchangable correctness of our system (because the real Islam is ) and thus are the most closed people for progress. And when we have that corrupt version, it inevitably results in this picture..Read this ayah;

3:103 “And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited, and remember the favor of Allah on you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts so by His favor you became brethren; and you were on the brink of a pit of fire, then He saved you from it, thus does Allah make clear to you His communications that you may follow the right way.”
Reply

xboxisdead
08-31-2018, 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Not with you, not unless you learn the meaning of "discussion".
Not unless you learn IQ is not a measure of your education but a measure of your "INTELLIGENCE"
Not unless you admit that you're wrong and women and men have pretty much the same IQ level.
Men are physically stronger, no doubt about that but that doesn't make them more intelligent.
Are you strong enough to admit when you're wrong ?
Why don't you show us then.
I admit it so what? Gender roles still applies. So what? You missed everything I said above. Completely. AHAHAH! And who cares of intelligences is not everything at all. There comes wisdom, understanding, reasoning, logic, comprehension, able to handle problems correctly, able to sacrifice one selfs to other, blah blah blah. Able to fight and in some cases by sword if a must for justice....the list goes on.

I will even admit this.

WOMEN ARE EVEN MORE SMARTER than men. So? It does not change anything.

Men still the head of the household, still the leader. The wife STILL HAVE TO OBEY her husband, men have important role to play. Masculinity need to be respected. Resources MUST BE PUT so boys can achieve good in academics and honestly intelligience of women in education and IQ did not bring much on the table. IN the end she still wants to go home and raise a family and have children and take sick leaves and the list goes on. More investment needed to put in education boys and men so they go out there and run the country the way they where created to do. Women need to be at home raising the children and bring new society at homes they way she was created to do. Kill feminist from the equation and if she wants to work she can as long as it does not interfer with her main role period and in addition does not make her more superior or better than her husband period

BECAUSE Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) have called husbands by the title, "LORD" in the Qura'an to teach us the status of a husband. Do you honestly believe Allah does not know the nature of women?! Seriously!? That thinking in itself makes anyone a disbeliever on spot! Allah knows the nature of women and her intellect and her maturity level and her comprehension and and. You don't think it is easy for Allah to create one gender society of female and lesbianism and make it halal? Easily he could. But he did not. He created the male and the female and he assigned gender roles for that nature and warned us not to cross those boundaries. HE EVEN told us to marvel at the difference of the sexes! Allah want us to MARVEL AT THE DIFFERENCE of the sexes. So enough with your statistic it holds no grain of salt to me. By the way, women trying to fight against it is really trying to fight against Allah! I have full confidence not only will she fail but she will be humiliated in this world and in the afterlife..hellfire her abode. Anyone who wages war against Allah, Allah will wage war against him.

I do not care about IQ, intelligence, verbal communication skills she knows computer science and she can even be better than me in computer science and math and logistic and and and...in the end of it it all when it comes to marriage and husband, wife role...THE HUSBAND IS SUPERIOR over the wife. I am using the term superior because I am not shamed to label something that have the right to be labeled. She wants to become feminist which is what YOUR mental thinking breeds, she can be..she can fight and argue and blah blah blah..in the end...the husband superiority suppressed wife in a big jump. It is in the Qura'an and no one can change it. No one can define it. Problem is..YOU ARE REFUSING to accept it. You are throwing IQ and intelligence and something to indicate we are equal or in fact she is smarter and better...nope. Sorry. Human beings are too limited to the boundaries of black and white. The mere fact you are refusing to accept that...indicate with all my might talking to you is pointless.

LOTS OF NON-MUSLIM WOMEN WHO COULD EASILY be feminist...anti-male...fight for female supremacy blah blah and she have all the laws to help her do it (and the mere fact she needs help is even more reason why she is unfit to be a leader) ...but funny...after all of this...your OWN NON-MUSLIM women revert to Islam and become Muslim. In fact for every 4 or more non-Muslim women who convert to Islam, 1 non-Muslim man convert to Islam.
Reply

Abz2000
08-31-2018, 07:11 PM
This somehow ended up on a different thread, it is a clear proof of the fact that criminal secularist Godless robbers are actually responsible for many of the problems that Muslims are enduring -

Oil rush: Scramble for Iraq's wealth

news/world/middle-east/oil-rush-scramble-for-iraqs-wealth-1711570.html




They were actually stealing AND robbing oil from iraq before mujahideen began to organise - using the entity which they call I.S.I.S as a strawman actually shows how dumbed down and conditioned to be duped his audience is.










East india company flag

Attachment 6514


Flag of Donald Trump's backers

Attachment 6515



Attachment 6513


i think inciting petrol bomb riots and looting of usurious banks and alcohol dealers in the streets of London, Paris, and New York would be an appropriate and just response since both exploiting and enslaving people via usury and selling alcohol which intoxicates people and debases them are both unlawful in a big way.
Reply

xboxisdead
08-31-2018, 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
This somehow ended up on a different thread, it is a clear proof of the fact that criminal secularist Godless robbers are actually responsible for many of the problems that Muslims are enduring - i think inciting riots and looting of usurious banks and alcohol dealers in the streets of London, Paris, and New York would be an appropriate and just response:

Oil rush: Scramble for Iraq's wealth

news/world/middle-east/oil-rush-scramble-for-iraqs-wealth-1711570.html




They were actually stealing AND robbing oil from iraq before mujahideen began to organise - using the entity which they call I.S.I.S as a strawman actually shows how dumbed down and conditioned to be duped his audience is.










East india company flag

Attachment 6514


Flag of Donald Trump's backers

Attachment 6515



[ATTACH=CONFIG]6513[/ATTACH
I seriously hate donald trump with passion! :facepalm::facepalm::heated::heated:
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beleiver
08-31-2018, 08:15 PM
Attachment 6520
This is another thing wrong with 'Muslims' many think this verse is saying music (all music) is from the devil...

And excite any of them whom thou canst with thy voice, and urge thy horse and foot against them, and be a partner in their wealth and children, and promise them. Satan promiseth them only to deceive.


















Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise;


Have they not travelled in the land, and have they hearts wherewith to feel and ears wherewith to hear? For indeed it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts, which are within the bosoms, that grow blind.




Reply

Alamgir
09-01-2018, 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by beleiver
Attachment 6520
This is another thing wrong with 'Muslims' many think this verse is saying music (all music) is from the devil...

And excite any of them whom thou canst with thy voice, and urge thy horse and foot against them, and be a partner in their wealth and children, and promise them. Satan promiseth them only to deceive.


















Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise;


Have they not travelled in the land, and have they hearts wherewith to feel and ears wherewith to hear? For indeed it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts, which are within the bosoms, that grow blind.



All music is haram, end of story. No matter how much some of you musicians might cry and sulk, it's haram.
Reply

xboxisdead
09-01-2018, 02:59 AM
Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
All music is haram, end of story. No matter how much some of you musicians might cry and sulk, it's haram.
eheheh bingo! Like the prophet peace be upon him told us that it is impossible for the non-Muslim to do right and we have to do opposite of what they do. :D

Non-Muslims are broken...they are bend and defective and their paradise is this world! Allah (Subhanahu Wa talaa) will make them powerful, rich, etc They will be famous, they will invent things and so on...but when they die they will be punished in the grave and thrown in hellfire. So let them enjoy this temporarily world and boost their ego...the Muslims will have the last laugh and our laugh is eternity while their laugh here is temporarily but their cry and misery will be eternity in the afterlife.
Reply

Raymann
09-01-2018, 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
Men still the head of the household, still the leader. The wife STILL HAVE TO OBEY her husband, men have important role to play. Masculinity need to be respected. Resources MUST BE PUT so boys can achieve good in academics and honestly intelligience of women in education and IQ did not bring much on the table. IN the end she still wants to go home and raise a family and have children and take sick leaves and the list goes on. More investment needed to put in education boys and men so they go out there and run the country the way they where created to do. Women need to be at home raising the children and bring new society at homes they way she was created to do. Kill feminist from the equation and if she wants to work she can as long as it does not interfer with her main role period and in addition does not make her more superior or better than her husband period
It amazes me how you make a big deal about something that is not a big deal in western societies.
Gender roles have always existed and still do in our society. The difference with the Islamic world is that we are not limited nor forced into predefined roles for each gender.
Yes, the male is still the protector of the wife and family.
Yes, the male is still the household leader for the most part.
Yes, the male does the heavy work (house repairs, car repairs, heavy lifting, etc) while the female usually do the traditional female chores (cooking, cleaning, taking care of kids, etc).
In recent time the roles can change a bit on an individual family case by case.
What happens if the female is the CEO of a big company and makes most of the money in the family?
What if she is the president of a country (Margaret Thatcher, Angela Merkel, Cristina Kirchner, etc) ?
Whatever the situation, it's not a big deal in our western society, we adjust on a case by case situation with ease because we don't have to comply with set in stones rigid rules.
Do you understand ? You are drowning in a glass of water.
Stop criticizing western society and concentrate on your own Islamic society which is the one straggling.
That's the problem with some Muslims like you, you keep hating everything that is different to your Islamic values.
If is not Islamic is evil, if is not Islamic is wrong, if is not Islamic is a sin.
If you cannot understand it just stay away and stop spending your life trying to create a fantasy evil empire in your head that does not exist.
The western society is not your problem, you are your problem.
Stop analyzing the problems of Western Society with your Islamic eyes.
Your don't understand the Western Society and want to fix it with rigid and outdated solutions that even Muslims are reluctant to use themselves ?
You're wasting your time.
Reply

nosmarter
09-01-2018, 06:51 PM
I think the OP's question implies that being a predominantly Muslim nation is the cause of those nations having serious issues. But in my opinion, it's really the other way around. It seems to me that bronze age religions take hold more easily in countries where the problems of poverty, lack of education, and corruption already exist. As soon as the lot of the people improves, you see religion, particularly the fundamentalist kind, lose its influence.
Reply

Junon
09-01-2018, 10:55 PM
Ill keep repeating it, Internet atheists are predictable, you've met one you've met them all.

Do try to do better internet atheist, the religion of 'new atheism' which you subscribe to is so passé.

Oh an hows your *cough* *cough* imaginary *cough* son keeping?

As an aside they do seem to say the same thing over and over again, I think we have to investigate the link between atheism and aspergers, I think the results would be interesting.
Reply

xboxisdead
09-01-2018, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
It amazes me how you make a big deal about something that is not a big deal in western societies.
Gender roles have always existed and still do in our society. The difference with the Islamic world is that we are not limited nor forced into predefined roles for each gender.
Yes, the male is still the protector of the wife and family.
Yes, the male is still the household leader for the most part.
Yes, the male does the heavy work (house repairs, car repairs, heavy lifting, etc) while the female usually do the traditional female chores (cooking, cleaning, taking care of kids, etc).
In recent time the roles can change a bit on an individual family case by case.
What happens if the female is the CEO of a big company and makes most of the money in the family?
What if she is the president of a country (Margaret Thatcher, Angela Merkel, Cristina Kirchner, etc) ?
Whatever the situation, it's not a big deal in our western society, we adjust on a case by case situation with ease because we don't have to comply with set in stones rigid rules.
Do you understand ? You are drowning in a glass of water.
Stop criticizing western society and concentrate on your own Islamic society which is the one straggling.
That's the problem with some Muslims like you, you keep hating everything that is different to your Islamic values.
If is not Islamic is evil, if is not Islamic is wrong, if is not Islamic is a sin.
If you cannot understand it just stay away and stop spending your life trying to create a fantasy evil empire in your head that does not exist.
The western society is not your problem, you are your problem.
Stop analyzing the problems of Western Society with your Islamic eyes.
Your don't understand the Western Society and want to fix it with rigid and outdated solutions that even Muslims are reluctant to use themselves ?
You're wasting your time.
I am done with you. Here is what is the issue your nation this is coming from another Atheist mouth



This is coming from a non-Muslim WOMAN https://moneyish.com/heart/heres-the...iage-is-dying/ Since it is coming from a woman and not a man I do hope you keep quiet about this. Had I been a woman you would agree 100% with everything I said. Your Western society is a failure. Doomed. I enjoy criticizing Western society and every time I see them make fool of themselves the more I am grinning with joy.

Here is another woman writing an article about marriage issue https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/07/opini...als/index.html


This s my favorite part of the sentence on the link below "Despite (or because of) the MGTOW movement, feminism creating greater equality, and the wealth of options for single people, the nature of marriage has changed.

This is a good thing.

No longer do women feel obligated to forgo an education, skip a career, and move directly from her father’s house to her husband’s house at age 21, like my Mom did.
" But at the expense of what that she got her independence?

In the end she goes out showing her hair, her body, she goes from men to men, women to women and she is a man more than a woman. While women embrace their independence and get higher degree, children, family suffer. You will be saying she can still be a good mother, wife and have a good job and degree.....she can never ever...give 100% the need for her family when she is busy interacting with stranger men and fulfilling her wordy desires and many marriages in your community end up in divorce. Isn't that over 80% of divorce are initiated by women in your nation? Don't your country have the highest suicide rate for men? Aren't boys failing miserably at school? Are't single mothers dressing their boys like little girls? What part of your Western society I want to look up too exactly? Please tell me.

https://www.evanmarckatz.com/blog/ma...class-america/

As to your statement if it not Islamic way then it is wrong, "YES" You see...Islam is not a culture. It is not man made culture and it is not set by rules for men by men. It is not defined by the person born with XY chromosome and defined by a person with male gentile period. It is not some form of man oppression designed to oppress women and give power to men!

NO! Islam is Allah's law and Allah knows the nature of every creation he created and he clearly told us the way to be in the right path and if we move astray from the road Allah have paved for us we will fail. Anything..not just Western...but ANYTHING ON EARTH not following Islamic way...not following Allah's law, not obeying Allah and his prophet and not submitting to Allah are doomed to failure and is wrong. Anyone. Western AND EVEN EASTERN (EVEN MUSLIM COUNTRIES ITSELF). It is not WEST VS East. It is not man vs woman. It is not black vs white. However it is something VS something though.

That something is truth VS LIE. Light VS darkness. Anyone who does anything outside Islam is in darkness. Is in misguidance. Anyone he dies in that state will die and be resurrected with no LIGHT on his heart and in the day of judgement when a person need to cross that bridge to enter paradise you need light to see. Because in the afterlife it is darker than darkness itself and there is no flashlight, no battery to light LED lights, no candles and there will be no SUN either. No MOON. NO planets, no trees, no mountains, no water, no sky, no stars, no gravity, no solar system...it is a different world all together and the only way you will be able to see is by your faith and that faith is exclusive in believing in Allah as the one and only true God and only he deserves to be worshipped. You have to believe in Allah, in all his prophets, his angels, in the afterlife, in the day of resurrection, paradise, hellfire, in the day of judgement and of course oneness of Allah and that Allah does not have a mother, father, son, daughter, family, etc. THEN you become Muslim and be a Muslim....THEN YOU AND ONLY THEN your way is the correct way. If you are anything BUT MUSLIM everything you do is wrong. EVERYTHING AND EVERYTHING.

So the western way is wrong not because it is West or because of culture..it is wrong because it does not believe in Allah (and I do not mean Western Muslim, I mean anyone western that is not Muslim) and it have not entered into Islam and because it did not enter Islam and actually follow Islam correctly (like we Muslims should be doing) it will never do anything right...ever. Including family, divorce and relationship. And you know what? The same can be said to us. The more we go astray from the true the path the more we be like you...the more we will be humiliated worse than you.

P.S "By the way, you said roles change in circumstances..in Islam roles do not change in circumstances. The roles are defined and set. Men are providers and protectors. If a situation arises where he is suffering and unable to fulfill his role...it is obligation for all of us Muslim brothers out there to help him fulfill his role. Why are we failing? Because we are not united as one. Because we don't care about our brothers. Because if we see a man with five kids and a wife and is unemployed and is wife is forced to work and make money....and provide for the family we don't stop this..and say no..he should be going and providing and help him. THIS IS one of the many reasons what is wrong with Muslims. I can list you many pages of what is wrong with us and all of them is we been astray from path of Allah. Everything is because we looked up AT YOU...the Atheist and non-Muslims as role models. Not the prophet peace be upon him and not working together as Muslims as one unit. This is our problem."
Reply

Raymann
09-01-2018, 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
Everyone is just as it sounds, everyone. Even so called "Muslim" countries consider it okay to attack people just for being religious. It's not right.
GENERALIZING is a dangerous practice, that's what ISIS and Al Qaeda do, If the attack came from a Secular country (USA), we'll assume all secular countries are responsible (that's most American countries and most of Europe.
Should I blame all Muslims for your GENERALIZATION ? or just YOU AND ONLY YOU ?

Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
You guys are the ones who vote for your leaders, so it has everything to do with you. The solution to point number 3 is simple, vote for leaders who don't want to wage war against us.
Are you serious ? If a political party holds 40 % of the votes and two other parties 30% each.Can you blame 100% of the population for electing the president?Again blaming 100% would be GENERALIZING which is one of your shameful practices.

Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
Yes, you attack one of us you have attacked all of us. Have you learnt anything from history?
GENERALIZING Again.

Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
We have spoken out against what those groups do dozens of times, but many of you are deaf, dumb and blind so no matter what we do, you won't notice it.
Most of the Muslims I heard use similar excuses:
What they do is not in the Quran nor any religious scriptures, therefore they're not real Muslims.
Is that what you think?
I said if before, they pray 5 times a day, they memorize the Quran, and they follow it to the best of their knowledge.
Who are you or anyone else to judge who is a real Muslim?

Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
Many of them aren't religious, this myth has been disproved numerous times. Stop barking without knowing the facts. I'll recommend this playlist to get you started on your journey of getting an education:
Myth ? Is that what you call it ? The most popular ones are religious (ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, etc). Do you think that a well trained BS artist can take the blame away? Wrong.
The fact is that those groups use religion as their motive. They say it, they prove it every time they can, they admit it.
Wake up and face the truth, even if it hurts. It's not your fault anyway, why getting so defensive ?
Even if they are MISINTERPRETING the Quran, they still following their own interpretation of it.

Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
Country or not, Israel has no right to exist because most of it's people are not native to the area, and it actively oppresses the native population (the Palestinians). If you want the Jews to have their own country, allot them some land from your own territory, not ours.
If we go back in time we could establish that Islam started in Saudi Arabia and expanded by INVADING all the countries around it.Should all those countries claim independence from Islamic countries. Too late, they're now majority Muslims.
Should the 12 million Christians left in Egypt form an independent country ?They were there way before Islam existed.
Not so easy, is it?
Reply

Abz2000
09-01-2018, 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
No longer do women feel obligated to forgo an education, skip a career, and move directly from her father’s house to her husband’s house at age 21, like my Mom did." But at the expense of what that she got her independence?
It is useful to make it clear that a woman is normally allowed to get an education and pursue a career as long as her actions and circumstances are within the bounds of Allah :swt: and she is at no risk of becoming prey to haram and those in whose hearts is a disease (those addicted to haraam actions).

This reality becomes self-apparent when you have to demand that female doctors and midwives be present at the birth of your children and face an uphill struggle in getting it.

When you seek female private teachers for your growing daughters and face struggles finding them.

And in many other situations.

The problem is not girls studying and pursuing a lawful career - the problem is the lack of Islamic communities where both males and females are able to flourish without fear of being violated by those who reject Allah :swt: , by the munaafiqeen, and by those in whose hearts is a disease - due to the fact that tough Islamic laws are not implemented.






Originally Posted by xboxisdead
So the western way is wrong not because it is West or because of culture..it is wrong because it is not Muslim and because it is not Muslim it will never do anything right...ever. Including family, divorce and relationship.

Is there a legal definition of "west" or is it a mirage?
Reply

xboxisdead
09-02-2018, 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
It is useful to make it clear that a woman is normally allowed to get an education and pursue a career as long as her actions and circumstances are within the bounds of Allah :swt: and she is at no risk of becoming prey to haram and those in whose hearts is a disease (those addicted to haraam actions).

This reality becomes self-apparent when you have to demand that female doctors and midwives be present at the birth of your children and face an uphill struggle in getting it.

When you seek female private teachers for your growing daughters and face struggles finding them.

And in many other situations.

The problem is not girls studying and pursuing a lawful career - the problem is the lack of Islamic communities where both males and females are able to flourish without fear of being violated by those who reject Allah :swt: , the munaafiqeen, and those in whose hearts is a disease - due to the fact that tough Islamic laws are not implemented.









Is there a legal definition of "west" or is it a mirage?
Exactly at the first point. Not issue with female getting education as long as it does not cross boundaries and those boundaries can only be determined if you are Muslim and obey Allah and his messenger. The problem is that the non-Muslims have no boundaries and they cross all bounds and that is because they are non-Muslim and thus everything they do is wrong.

As for your question concerning the definition of "West" it is a mirage.

There is no such thing as West or East. All a mirage. The situation would have easily been reversed. In the end..it is Earth. And Earth is property of Allah.
Reply

Zafran
09-02-2018, 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
All music is haram, end of story. No matter how much some of you musicians might cry and sulk, it's haram.
Not necessarily.....
Reply

xboxisdead
09-02-2018, 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Not necessarily.....
anything that uses string and blowing with holes on them and using air to make musical instruments to produce notes...those are forbidden. Singing female voices is also forbidden.
Reply

Zafran
09-02-2018, 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by nosmarter
I think the OP's question implies that being a predominantly Muslim nation is the cause of those nations having serious issues. But in my opinion, it's really the other way around. It seems to me that bronze age religions take hold more easily in countries where the problems of poverty, lack of education, and corruption already exist. As soon as the lot of the people improves, you see religion, particularly the fundamentalist kind, lose its influence.
Like the US........on a serious note religion isn't going anywhere its actually rising and will continue to do so whilst atheism does not hold for long unless you regard Bolshevik Russia and China as great examples of lack of religions (although Orthodox Christianity is back in Russia). The west has a specific history with western Christianity which led to the destruction of christian society thanks to the reformation and enlightenment right into modernity. The Muslims have a very different history of colonialism and the making of new states based on colonial lines, dictators and absolute monarchist would use harsh power to keep there new found nation states alive given by there masters.- of course Muslims share a similar history to most places including china and south america.

The Kamalist and now the Assads (secularist) are on shaky grounds once again. So we'll see what happens but one thing is for certain liberalism isn't exactly the answer especially looking at Trump, Brexit and the rise of the far right in Europe - its also on shaky grounds.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by xboxisdead
anything that uses string and blowing with holes on them and using air to make musical instruments to produce notes...those are forbidden. Singing female voices is also forbidden.
according to some scholars others had a different opinion like Al Nablusi, Ibn Hazm, Shawkani, al Ghazzali etc - there is an entire thread on this and the salafis got angry with it.
Reply

Alamgir
09-02-2018, 01:32 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Not necessarily.....
Asalamu Alaikum

Yes necessarily.

You guys are so annoying, music is haram, end of story. Some scholars permit percussion instruments so long as certain conditions are met, but that's it.

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Originally Posted by Zafran
according to some scholars others had a different opinion like Al Nablusi, Ibn Hazm, Shawkani, al Ghazzali etc
The four Imam's, Ibn Kathir, At Tabari, Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, etc, almost all of the major scholars considered (and still consider) music to be haram. The number of scholars that permit music are so minuscule in number that their opinion pretty much becomes irrelevant.
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Zafran
09-02-2018, 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
Asalamu Alaikum

Yes necessarily.

You guys are so annoying, music is haram, end of story. Some scholars permit percussion instruments so long as certain conditions are met, but that's it.
Your original post was wrong and so is this one - there are plenty of famous minority opinions on music.
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Alamgir
09-02-2018, 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Your original post was wrong and so is this one - there are plenty of famous minority opinions on music.
No it's not, as stated before, they are only a handful and as a result their opinion is pretty much irrelevant.
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Zafran
09-02-2018, 01:43 AM
Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
Asalamu Alaikum

Yes necessarily.

You guys are so annoying, music is haram, end of story. Some scholars permit percussion instruments so long as certain conditions are met, but that's it.

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The four Imam's, Ibn Kathir, At Tabari, Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, etc, almost all of the major scholars considered (and still consider) music to be haram. The number of scholars that permit music are so minuscule in number that their opinion pretty much becomes irrelevant.
Thats like saying Ibn Taymiyya (ra) opinion on divorce is a minority and therefore its irrelevant. Doesn't work well for salafis as they follow plenty of opinions that are in the minority including Tawassul. Doesn't make it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
No it's not, as stated before, they are only a handful and as a result their opinion is pretty much irrelevant.
No it doesn't, salafis should know that better then anyone.
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Alamgir
09-02-2018, 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Thats like saying Ibn Taymiyya (ra) opinion on divorce is a minority and therefore its irrelevant. Doesn't work well for salafis as they follow plenty of opinions that are in the minority including Tawassul. Doesn't make it wrong.

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No it doesn't, salafis should know that better they anyone.
Following a minority opinion is not wrong so long as that minority is still fairly sizeable, has evidence from the Quran and Sunnah, and has people from the Salaf who followed that very same opinion.

The people who say music is halal don't fit any of that criteria.
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Zafran
09-02-2018, 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
Following a minority opinion is not wrong so long as that minority is still fairly sizeable, has evidence from the Quran and Sunnah, and has people from the Salaf who followed that very same opinion.

The people who say music is halal don't fit any of that criteria.
Nice of you to come around - Ofcourse a person can do the same on music and minority views as well as they base there opinion on Quran and sunnah and the burden of proof of something being haram anyway we're derailing the thread.
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Alamgir
09-02-2018, 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Nice of you to come around - Ofcourse a person can do the same on music and minority views as well as they base there opinion on Quran and sunnah and the burden of proof of something being haram anyway we're derailing the thread.
They may claim to base it on the Quran and Sunnah, but when it comes to this viewpoint there is no basis, hence why almost everyone opposes it. To call music halal is akin to calling shrines halal, both of them are explicitly called haram in both the Quran and the Sunnah.

We've given plenty of proof, it's you guys who have failed to provide sufficient proof for your claims, so the burden is only on you since we've already relieved ourselves of it.

If you don't want to talk about the subject then don't reply to me about it in the first place.
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Raymann
09-02-2018, 05:14 AM
Originally Posted by xboxisdead
Here is another woman writing an article about marriage issue https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/07/opini...als/index.html
Ok, now you're getting desperate.
You're looking for losers who admittedly have failed in their lives and unscrupulously lift'em up and declare them the symbols and absolute proof the western society has failed.
Do you have andy shame left ?
Why getting that low ?
What happened with serious and honest research ?
Your end goal is pretty clear, there is no doubt about it
You hate the west. You want the west to fail. You need to find proof the west is failing.
It's becoming a sickness now but you can't stop it. It's eating you up from the inside.
You're turning into an infectious blob that keeps rolling and infecting everything in its way.
The strange thing is that you live in a western country, don't you ?
Taking advantage of all the freedom and good standard of living provided by your enemy, the mighty west.
I never understood people like the Boston Marathon bombers.Living in the west, having a good life, making good money but suddenly something goes wrong.
All of a sudden the dark side of Islam takes their souls away. Now the whole point of their lives is to fight against their enemy, the enemy who is giving them everything they need. The enemy who wants to be their friend and is extending a friendly hand to them.

And you have the audacity to claim the west is going bad.
Wouldn't be much easier to put all your wasted efforts in doing good to society.Isn't it time to stop hating and make a real contribution.
Why don't you train extremists to become good Muslims ?
I'm pretty sure Allah would appreciate that much better than what you're doing now.
You can fool me but you cannot fool Allah and you know it.
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fschmidt
09-02-2018, 09:16 AM
It's too bad that this thread is just a debate between fundamentalist atheists and fundamentalist muslims. There is a real question here that was raised at the last jumah talk at my mosque. The point of the talk was that God grants success on earth to whatever culture has the highest morals regardless of their religion, and that because Muslims currently have low morals, they do not have success. The potential for high morals and success clearly exists in Islam, but some creative thinking is needed to figure out how to get there. But there seems to be little effort in this direction right now.
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anatolian
09-02-2018, 09:31 AM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
It's too bad that this thread is just a debate between fundamentalist atheists and fundamentalist muslims. There is a real question here that was raised at the last jumah talk at my mosque. The point of the talk was that God grants success on earth to whatever culture has the highest morals regardless of their religion, and that because Muslims currently have low morals, they do not have success. The potential for high morals and success clearly exists in Islam, but some creative thinking is needed to figure out how to get there. But there seems to be little effort in this direction right now.
Thats what I have been trying to tell here. The ayats I quoted say it clearly that if you dont follow Islam you are destined to fall. Its not a fight between the fundamentalists but between mind and desire ..
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fschmidt
09-02-2018, 09:48 AM
Originally Posted by anatolian
Its not a fight between the fundamentalists but between mind and desire ..
In the fight between mind and desire, desire will usually win unless systems are put in place to support the mind. What is needed are new systems that will work in modern world. Other religions like conservative Mennonites seem to have such systems.
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nosmarter
09-02-2018, 10:24 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Like the US........on a serious note religion isn't going anywhere its actually rising and will continue to do so whilst atheism does not hold for long unless you regard Bolshevik Russia and China as great examples of lack of religions (although Orthodox Christianity is back in Russia). The west has a specific history with western Christianity which led to the destruction of christian society thanks to the reformation and enlightenment right into modernity. The Muslims have a very different history of colonialism and the making of new states based on colonial lines, dictators and absolute monarchist would use harsh power to keep there new found nation states alive given by there masters.- of course Muslims share a similar history to most places including china and south america.

The Kamalist and now the Assads (secularist) are on shaky grounds once again. So we'll see what happens but one thing is for certain liberalism isn't exactly the answer especially looking at Trump, Brexit and the rise of the far right in Europe - its also on shaky grounds.
Not as sure as you are about that. For one, the place where you find the most religious Christian fundamentalists is in the impoverished ares including the poorer states and what they call the "inner-city". In those places, you'll find some church in every corner preaching hellfire and brimstone. As states get wealthier and neighborhoods improve, you'll maybe have a Catholic or Presbyterian/Lutheran church somewhere near the park and he people there go on the occasional Sunday.

In Saudi Arabia, interestingly enough, it seems that the religious groups there are losing their influence because the younger people there are becoming better educated and more sophisticated. Less and less you're finding the kind of people that are comfortable with chopping off the heads of "blasphemers" and asserting that there are djinns and witches in their midst. Unless fundamentalist religious governments find a way to block the internet, they're going to find it pretty hard to explain to younger people how a 13th century book can have any relevance in this day and age.

If you want to find a close to ideal society, you should visit Switzerland. I lived there for some years. Very low crime, high level of civic responsibility by the citizens, great economy, and one of the lowest corruption rates in the world. And yet they're not a religious society nor do they refer to religion to justify their laws.
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Raymann
09-02-2018, 11:21 AM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
It's too bad that this thread is just a debate between fundamentalist atheists and fundamentalist muslims. There is a real question here that was raised at the last jumah talk at my mosque. The point of the talk was that God grants success on earth to whatever culture has the highest morals regardless of their religion, and that because Muslims currently have low morals, they do not have success. The potential for high morals and success clearly exists in Islam, but some creative thinking is needed to figure out how to get there. But there seems to be little effort in this direction right now.
I like your post and your partial answer to the main question.
You said "Muslims currently have low morals", and that's why "they do not have success".
We still don't know why this is happening although many have suggested is because they don't practice Islam as they should.
The question is: can Islam be practiced today following every single rule and penalty established in the Quran and Hadith ?
No one dares to do it. Why? There has to be a reason for it, and a very good reason I must say.

By the way I don't consider myself a Fundamentalist Atheist but I'm not sure what that means. I'm more like a Roman Catholic who doesn't believe in god.
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Abz2000
09-02-2018, 01:00 PM
This conversation is quite funny - watching the hellbound supporters of criminal and totally corrupt and degenerate lifestyles discuss amongst themsepves and attempt to tell Muslims that they are losers, and the fact that some Muslims are being unjustly violated by some of the Godless robbers is somehow a sign that Muslims shouldn't be obeying God.....


......lol - when the first thing you'd see from those same corrupt Godless degenerate freaks who push degenrate Godlessness corruption and pride themselves in having gotten rich by stealing the resources of Muslims is indignance and feigned shock and statements of how Islam radicalised the Muslims who stopped playing the victim and got up and justly responded t9 lifetimes of abuse and taunts.
Oh Muslims - the kaafir economies are about to implode and donald trump is being used as a diversion and distraction so that the reasons are obscured.
Also know that one fifth of any lawful spoils gained from illicit businesses are for Allah :swt:.
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Eric H
09-02-2018, 01:04 PM
Greetings and peace be with you nosmarter;

I take comfort in the fact that you and others seem to abhor ISIS, but I wish that others like yourself would stand up against such people
I and thousands of others stood up against the American and British war against Afghanistan and Iraq, it did no good at all. Both these wars were unjust, immoral and wrong. 9/11 was wrong, but you should not hold a country accountable for a few individuals. We had no justification to invade Iraq looking for invisible WMDs.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
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fschmidt
09-02-2018, 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
The question is: can Islam be practiced today following every single rule and penalty established in the Quran and Hadith ?
This is not the question. Unfortunately all modern religions including Islam fail to understand that all scriptures are primarily about ethics. These are not law books. Law is simply the application of ethics to a given situation. This is how Hadith should be understood, but isn't.

By the way I don't consider myself a Fundamentalist Atheist but I'm not sure what that means. I'm more like a Roman Catholic who doesn't believe in god.
A fundamentalist is someone who puts his religious beliefs above real world evidence. If you really believe that the modern West is doing okay, then you are a fundamentalist or are completely ignorant of history. The West today resembles every decaying culture in history. The breakdown of the family and giving women excessive power are common symptoms of cultures that have degenerated beyond repair.
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Eric H
09-02-2018, 01:21 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Raymann;

Taking advantage of all the freedom and good standard of living provided by your enemy, the mighty west.
The mighty west is slowly destroying itself. The destruction of the family is evil. In Britain, by the time a child gets to fifteen, about half of them are not living with both their biological parents. I see first hand the devastation this causes. We seem to encourage drunken behaviour, our pubs close at 3 am, and so many youngsters cannot handle that level of booze. The west is an immoral society.

In the spirit of searching for God,
Eric
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AabiruSabeel
09-02-2018, 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Or should I have asked: What's wrong with Muslims? or What's wrong with people living in Muslim Countries?
Let me explain.
I've been reading a lot of Islamic culture and history and things don't add up.Islam is a religion that also provides a set of rules on how to live your entire life. Everything is instructed by god (Allah) and your prophet so you should have the perfect instructions on how to succeed, live in harmony and peacefully.
Instead, I cannot find a single fully developed Muslim country in the world. Why?
The more I read about specific countries the more I start to discover all the problems that affect them.
Some common culprits are:
Intolerance with other religions or cultures (hate, dislike, confrontations, wars).
Underdevelopment (poverty is usually very high on most Muslim countries)
Peace is not the best quality of most Muslim countries (confrontations with other Muslims as well as with others)
Can anyone explain it to me?
Money and resources are not the only problem since Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Turkey and others seem to have the resources but somehow cannot fully develop.
I'd like to see how a perfect and peaceful (secure and tolerant) Muslim Country would look like.
Originally Posted by Raymann
The question is: can Islam be practiced today following every single rule and penalty established in the Quran and Hadith ?
No one dares to do it. Why? There has to be a reason for it, and a very good reason I must say.
That's because any country that tries to implement Islam fully gets invaded and forcibly removed from power by using false flag operations as pretext. You have plenty of examples from the recent history.

If you want to look at ideal Muslim society, read the lives of Sahabah, the companions of Prophet Muhammad :saws:. They were the most civilized people who ever lived on earth.

In Islam, we do not measure development with material wealth. The Sahabah did not have enough to feed themselves but if you look at their socio-economic relations with the people, you will not find any better match. They were the best in serving their Lord as well as in dealing with fellow beings.

In Islam, success is defined as being saved from hell fire and being admitted to Paradise. If Allah :swt: is pleased with us, then nothing matters. Whatever situation we are placed in, we simply have to fulfill what Allah wants from us.

Material development in this world, for Muslims, is simply a by-product of practicing Islam. It is not the end-goal.


See this Hadith and you will understand what happens when Islam is fully established,

Narrated `Adi bin Hatim :ra::

While I was in the city of the Prophet, a man came and complained to him (the Prophet, ) of destitution and poverty. Then another man came and complained of robbery (by highwaymen).
The Prophet said, "Adi! Have you been to Al-Hira?" I said, "I haven't been to it, but I was informed about it." He said, "If you should live for a long time, you will certainly see that a lady in a Howdah traveling from Al-Hira will (safely reach Mecca and) perform the Tawaf of the Ka`ba, fearing none but Allah."
I said to myself, "What will happen to the robbers of the tribe of Tai who have spread evil through out the country?" The Prophet (ﷺ) further said. "If you should live long, the treasures of Khosrau will be opened (and taken as spoils)." I asked, "You mean Khosrau, son of Hurmuz?" He said, "Khosrau, son of Hurmuz; and if you should live long, you will see that one will carry a handful of gold or silver and go out looking for a person to accept it from him, but will find none to accept it from him. And any of you, when meeting Allah, will meet Him without needing an interpreter between him and Allah to interpret for him, and Allah will say to him: 'Didn't I send a messenger to teach you?' He will say: 'Yes.' Allah will say: 'Didn't I give you wealth and do you favors?' He will say: 'Yes.' Then he will look to his right and see nothing but Hell, and look to his left and see nothing but Hell."
`Adi further said: I heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "Save yourself from the (Hell) Fire even with half a date (to be given in charity) and if you do not find a half date, then with a good pleasant word."
`Adi added: (later on) I saw a lady in a Howdah traveling from Al-Hira till she performed the Tawaf of the Ka`ba, fearing none but Allah. And I was one of those who opened (conquered) the treasures of Khosrau, son of Hurmuz. If you should live long, you will see what the Prophet (ﷺ) Abu-l-Qasim had said: 'A person will come out with a handful. of gold...etc. [Bukhari]


Safety, security, peace, wealth, everything is promised if we establish Islam completely, in our lives as well as in the whole society.
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Zafran
09-03-2018, 02:07 AM
Originally Posted by nosmarter
Not as sure as you are about that. For one, the place where you find the most religious Christian fundamentalists is in the impoverished ares including the poorer states and what they call the "inner-city". In those places, you'll find some church in every corner preaching hellfire and brimstone. As states get wealthier and neighborhoods improve, you'll maybe have a Catholic or Presbyterian/Lutheran church somewhere near the park and he people there go on the occasional Sunday.
plenty of people attend prosperity gospel speeches with mega churches those are not funded by poor people - Inner cities especially in the US are mostly ran by racial issues. Its strange that you seem to think religion is an issue in your country - race is a bigger a problem - there is a reason why Trump got elected and panders to the whole anti climate change crowd - those guys are money first and religious conviction second - trump is a great example of that who isnt even religious.


Originally Posted by nosmarter
In Saudi Arabia, interestingly enough, it seems that the religious groups there are losing their influence because the younger people there are becoming better educated and more sophisticated
Not true what so ever - right now there is a purge going on where many salafis scholars have been purged with no due process, possibly tortured - there are plenty of articles on it. You dont seem to care of course as you seem to have an entirely reductive and mythical view of Saudi Arabia.


Originally Posted by nosmarter
ess and less you're finding the kind of people that are comfortable with chopping off the heads of "blasphemers" and asserting that there are djinns and witches in their midst. Unless fundamentalist religious governments find a way to block the internet, they're going to find it pretty hard to explain to younger people how a 13th century book can have any relevance in this day and age.
For starters salafi movement has its route in 18th century movement that has a long story of colonialism, US backing and anti Ottoman wars. So do keep up and try not to make mythical views here.


Originally Posted by nosmarter
If you want to find a close to ideal society, you should visit Switzerland. I lived there for some years. Very low crime, high level of civic responsibility by the citizens, great economy, and one of the lowest corruption rates in the world. And yet they're not a religious society nor do they refer to religion to justify their laws.
Switzerland banned the minaret - yep it banned minarets and your calling it an Ideal society? Its also great place where corrupt politicians and dodgy people keep there money with Offshore banking - Maybe for an athiest China would be much more Ideal place to live.

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Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
They may claim to base it on the Quran and Sunnah, but when it comes to this viewpoint there is no basis, hence why almost everyone opposes it. To call music halal is akin to calling shrines halal, both of them are explicitly called haram in both the Quran and the Sunnah.
Your argument has no bases - you first tried to play the majority card - that didnt work now your once again playing the same card - your a salafi you dont have majority opinion, its why you backtracked when Ibn Taymiyya (ra) was mentioned.

Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
We've given plenty of proof, it's you guys who have failed to provide sufficient proof for your claims, so the burden is only on you since we've already relieved ourselves of it.
Its well known that many scholars regard music has haram and a minority regard it permissible.


Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
If you don't want to talk about the subject then don't reply to me about it in the first place.
Next time dont give fatwas categorically and I wont.
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Alamgir
09-03-2018, 04:30 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Your argument has no bases - you first tried to play the majority card - that didnt work now your once again playing the same card - your a salafi you dont have majority opinion, its why you backtracked when Ibn Taymiyya (ra) was mentioned.



Its well known that many scholars regard music has haram and a minority regard it permissible.




Next time dont give fatwas categorically and I wont.
What do you mean it "didn't work"? It did and does work. I never backtracked, I said that following a minority opinion is only understandable under certain conditions, none of which apply to the opinion that music is halal.

I'm yet to find a single Salafi viewpoint that isn't based on teachings of the Salaf, doesn't come from the Quran or Sunnah, or isn't believed by a significant number of the fuqaha. I can't say the same for your precious little Sufi bid'ah though. Praying to graves, the Mawlid, shrines, etc, many of your teachings are haram and some of them are shirk so let's not make this a Salafi-Sufi discussion.

No, it's not well known, what is well known is that pretty much all the fuquha view/viewed music as haram, the few that didn't/don't are nowhere near a sizeable minority unlike with other issues.

I'll do whatever I please.
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Raymann
09-03-2018, 09:26 AM
Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
The question is: can Islam be practiced today following every single rule and penalty established in the Quran and Hadith ?
No one dares to do it. Why? There has to be a reason for it, and a very good reason I must say.
That's because any country that tries to implement Islam fully gets invaded and forcibly removed from power by using false flag operations as pretext.
Excuse my ignorance but can someone list the countries that were trying to implement Islam fully and were invaded ?
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Futuwwa
09-03-2018, 09:34 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
We don't need to be too precise here. In general I would consider a country fully developed when certain achievements have been met:
The infrastructure covers most of the country. That means most ot the country is covered with paved roads. Most houses are constructed to a certain standard. Most houses have access to water, electricity and sewer system.
Education is available to most people.
There is an adequate coverage of health insurance for the population.
Most people earn enough money to stay above the poverty line.
The poverty line is one of the most telling indicators that a country has achieved full development.
Qatar is a very rich country but 60 % of the population are poor immigrant workers, that is not a fully developed country to me.
On the other hand most European countries are fully developed, you won't find shanty towns easily on them.
As you said, the standard of living can change and in the near future the indicators to determine what is a fully developed country might change but we deal with the future when the future comes.
On the contrary, precision is of the utmost importance. Your entire OP is premised on the notion of there not being a single "fully developed" Islamic country. Which makes it eminently relevant whether "fully developed" is a relevant concept in the first place, or just something you arbitrarily made up to support a preconceived notion.

As for Qatar specifically, it is entirely capable of decently housing every single one of those migrant workers. Qatar not doing so has nothing to do with ability and everything to do with choice not to do so, because there's plenty of poor people in the world who will keep on coming nevertheless. Thus, possibly an indicator of the morality of the government (which may or may not reflect on wider society), but nothing that has any implication for ability to develop.

Do you know what the poverty line is? It's not absolute, it's relative to the overall prosperity of the country. One often-used definition is half the median income. Thus, fraction of population below the poverty line has nothing to do with overall prosperity and everything to do with income distribution. Availability of healthcare and education are pretty much the same, mainly dependent on income distribution rather than overall prosperity (since those commodities are mainly produced by well-paid professionals and thus their price proportional to what counts as an upper middle class salary in the country).

Sure, you may define development in such a way as you please, but the more it's based on your subjective opinion on what's a good society, the less relevant it is for a general discussion.
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Abz2000
09-03-2018, 10:22 AM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Excuse my ignorance but can someone list the countries that were trying to implement Islam fully and were invaded ?
Some were criminally invaded and others were economically and politically sabotaged under various false pretexts when their leaders attempted to implement Islamic advancement, or when the people attempted to attempt islamic advancement and the leaders assisted or allowed them.
The usurers became enraged during breakdowns in negotiation when they saw that they could no longer get a stranglehold on those economies - some of these steps in Islam were incremental and sometimes single decisions such as the implementation of the gold dinar or banning of opium became the final straw in cozy relations.


you would need to get an accurate list of all the countries in which the american army, JSOC, and/or the cia has been active, and study the timeline of events in order to understand the situation.

Demanding a list when you know full well that your corrupt leaders are habitual despicable liars who have created false pretexts for overt actions after breakdown in negotiations during totally unrelated private boardroom dealings - is more an attempt to deny and obscure than to be enlightened.

Go study the facts and get the list yourself and stop censoring lawful google results. Go take a look at how middle eastern leaders have been blackmailed and pressured to clamp down on their people and to promote decadence- and have even been openly reprimanded by decadent leaders such as bush for walking out of meetings when it went too far and openly blasphemous to the extent that their people would drag them off their thrones - and how plans to ensure they didn't walk of were later made in private and also discussed in public.



See also:

https://chomsky.info/20020416/
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Raymann
09-03-2018, 12:01 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Qatar specifically, it is entirely capable of decently housing every single one of those migrant workers. Qatar not doing so has nothing to do with ability and everything to do with choice not to do so
Exactly my point, Qatar has the capability to be a First World Country but prefers to stay a Third World Country by not sharing the money collected from the oil business. 60 % of the population are poor and live in miserable conditions. That's the fact.
It's not how much money the king has, it's how much money every single person have.

http://www.whichcountryinfo.com/first-world-countries/
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Abz2000
09-03-2018, 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Exactly my point, Qatar has the capability to be a First World Country but prefers to stay a Third World Country by not sharing the money collected from the oil business. 60 % of the population are poor and live in miserable conditions. That's the fact.
It's not how much money the king has, it's how much money every single person have.

http://www.whichcountryinfo.com/first-world-countries/

If that's your primary standard of measure - go look at the nat rothschild's one hunded million pound (that's one million pounds - one hindred times -in case you're confused) planet nine superyacht and consider the fact that it only came out that he owns it due to the dispute over it which required that the owner of the front be named - then consider the fact that the majority of common people in england are more in debt than the migrant workers in Qatar who you mention as an example.

Also, the fact that the rulerships in the middle east are held at loggerheads with their people via degenerate secularist manipulation in the name of false "democratic reforms", "women's liberation" (debasement to hookers) and "progressive policies" which are attempts to legalize adultery, fornication, sodomy, with the main aim of promoting these being creation of apathy towards looting via usury), exacerbates the issue since they usually end up paying protection money to secularist leaders just to stay in power - with a resulting huge gulf created between a hostile leadership and hostile people - whilst certain criminal Godless corrupters float fears with mirages such as "terrorism", "islamic extremism", "anti-westernism" when those in the know see clearly that the degenerate secularist usurers are behind all the chaos.
Libya is a perfect example of how NATO allies used people in the name of democracy, Islam, secularism, banking, oil etc to foment chaos before declaring it a failed state - when in actuality, Gaddafi was moving closer to Islam by the day and was looking out for the financial well-being of the people with the resources of the nation.

Usurer banking puppet Sarkozy's claim that Libya was a "threat to the financial security of mankind" simply because it was ditching the fiat dollar and establishing the gold dinar - was a lie, rather, the gold dinar would have elevated humankind and slowly released them from the shackles of usury.



According to a Russian article titled 'Bombing of Libya – Punishment for Gaddafi for His Attempt to Refuse US Dollar', Gaddafi made a similarly bold move: he initiated a movement to refuse the dollar and the euro, and called on Arab and African nations to use a new currency instead, the gold dinar. Gaddafi suggested establishing a united African continent, with its 200 million people using this single currency. During the past year, the idea was approved by many Arab countries and most African countries. The only opponents were the Republic of South Africa and the head of the League of Arab States. The initiative was viewed negatively by the US and the European Union, with French President Nicolas Sarkozy calling Libya a threat to the financial security of mankind; but Gaddafi was not swayed and continued his push for the creation of a united Africa. […] If the Gaddafi government goes down, it will be interesting to watch whether the new central bank [created by the rebels in March] joins the BIS, whether the nationalised oil industry gets sold off to investors, and whether education and healthcare continue to be free."

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...uammar-gaddafi
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Raymann
09-03-2018, 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
consider the fact that the majority of common people in england are more in debt than the migrant workers in Qatar who you mention as an example.
You really think that's a fair comparison ?
The common people in England who are in debt still enjoy a more than decent standard of living and are free to walk around.
The migrants in Qatar are modern day slaves who have their passports taken when they arrive and are forced to work for very low wages and it would take years just to repay the airplane ticket and other expenses they were given to lure them into this evil trap.

Point 1: No, Qatar doesn't qualify as a developed country (first world country)
Point 2: No, Qatar doesn't qualify as a perfect Muslim country either which is what we're looking for here.
They don't even implement full Islamic laws.

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Originally Posted by Abz2000
Excuse my ignorance but can someone list the countries that were trying to implement Islam fully and were invaded ?

Some were criminally invaded and others were economically and politically sabotaged under various false pretexts when their leaders attempted to implement Islamic advancement, or when the people attempted to attempt islamic advancement and the leaders assisted or allowed them.
You don't want to provide names, fine, then I'll assume you're talking about Afghanistan and Iraq to begin with.
The reason I asked was because these countries apparently had the rare quality that they implemented full Islamic Laws.
We're looking for the perfect Muslim Country, I'd like to see how the perfect Muslim Country looks like.
Was Afghanistan and the Taliban the perfect Muslim Country before the invasion ?
Is that what you would use as a model for all Muslim Countries around the world ?
Was Iraq the perfect Muslim Country before the invasion ?
Were any of those other countries that you didn't provide the names the perfect Muslim Country ?
You tell me.
Reply

xboxisdead
09-03-2018, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
You really think that's a fair comparison ?
The common people in England who are in debt still enjoy a more than decent standard of living and are free to walk around.
The migrants in Qatar are modern day slaves who have their passports taken when they arrive and are forced to work for very low wages and it would take years just to repay the airplane ticket and other expenses they were given to lure them into this evil trap.

Point 1: No, Qatar doesn't qualify as a developed country (first world country)
Point 2: No, Qatar doesn't qualify as a perfect Muslim country either which is what we're looking for here.
They don't even implement full Islamic laws.

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You don't want to provide names, fine, then I'll assume you're talking about Afghanistan and Iraq to begin with.
The reason I asked was because these countries apparently had the rare quality that they implemented full Islamic Laws.
We're looking for the perfect Muslim Country, I'd like to see how the perfect Muslim Country looks like.
Was Afghanistan and the Taliban the perfect Muslim Country before the invasion ?
Is that what you would use as a model for all Muslim Countries around the world ?
Was Iraq the perfect Muslim Country before the invasion ?
Were any of those other countries that you didn't provide the names the perfect Muslim Country ?
You tell me.
Read a book to learn how a perfect Muslim country looked like. Don't expect now when Jews and USA and Britain are interfering with our lives and controlling us like bunch of little puppets.
Reply

anatolian
09-03-2018, 06:04 PM
Because they are not the Qatari citizents. The citizents enjoy the life and the standards of those imigrant workers in Qatar is even better than their standards in their home countries so they prefer it. This makes Qatar a high level capitalist and un-Islamic country but still comparable to the west. In the EU countries like England they treat non EU citizents with similar standards. You have to work like a slave inorder to have a proper life there. Thats because of capitalist mentality and totally un-Islamic
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xboxisdead
09-03-2018, 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by anatolian
Because they are not the Qatari citizents. The citizents enjoy the life and the standards of those imigrant workers in Qatar is even better than their standards in their home countries so they prefer it. This makes Qatar a high level capitalist and un-Islamic country but still comparable to the west. In the EU countries like England they treat non EU citizents with similar standards. You have to work like a slave inorder to have a proper life there. Thats because of capitalist mentality and totally un-Islamic
Exactly. You always have to ask yourself this question. If you living standard is great, great education, etc...you need to look at the making of over whose expense and shoulders and pain are you getting these benefits? Also you have to ask yourself...how such "paradise" life style turning the citizen that lives in it? Are they becoming soft? Are they becoming narcissistic? Are they becoming arrogant? Are they becoming ignorant in the world around them? If I am living in paradise place and enjoying my life and my neighboring country are starving to death, getting killed and destroyed and I do not know it, see it, or view it in media and somehow my beautiful life style is the reason why they are suffering because I am taking away their resources then I look down at them because I am first world country and I say to these people who I caused suffering you are barbarian...join us.....assimilate....uh...you can see where this is headed.

When the time comes where Muslims will unit to fight...I will join that fight. I do not want to sit in my cozy room...and suckle on my thump while everyone else is fighting for the cause of Allah..
Reply

Alamgir
09-03-2018, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Exactly my point, Qatar has the capability to be a First World Country but prefers to stay a Third World Country by not sharing the money collected from the oil business. 60 % of the population are poor and live in miserable conditions. That's the fact.
It's not how much money the king has, it's how much money every single person have.

http://www.whichcountryinfo.com/first-world-countries/
It's not a fact, I've lived there for 4.5 years and it's living conditions are just as good as most Western countries. In fact, in many ways it's even better, e.g far lower crime rate, no wild animals, no taxes, etc. It even has one of the highest GDP per capita's in the world.

Most of their population is not poor. You are referring to the workers, they are not a majority and even if they were, the conditions they live in are far better than what they'd get in their home countries (hence why they come to places like Qatar in the first place).

Get out of your echo chamber and try to experience things first hand rather than relying on whatever crap you currently use.
Reply

xboxisdead
09-03-2018, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
It's not a fact, I've lived there for 4.5 years and it's living conditions are just as good as most Western countries. In fact, in many ways it's even better, e.g far lower crime rate, no wild animals, no taxes, etc. It even has one of the highest GDP per capita's in the world.

Most of their population is not poor. You are referring to the workers, they are not a majority and even if they were, the conditions they live in are far better than what they'd get in their home countries (hence why they come to places like Qatar in the first place).

Get out of your echo chamber and try to experience things first hand rather than relying on whatever crap you currently use.
Hehe...one factor of lower crime in any Muslim countries..."fathers". Do not deny the importance of fathers or diminish his importance and role. Because in America they finally appreciate the value of fatherhood in families because they the 1st world county are a fatherless America. They have the highest crime rate, suicide, school drop out, and suffering and they refuse to admit the importance of fathers. IMPOSSIBLE! Fathers important? NO! I refuse it! - hits fist on the table - We need men? NO! NO NO! NO! That is wrong! That is unnatural! That is abhorrent! How can it be? Men have a purpose? - grabs a bag and vomits in it - Damn! I feel sick! We must work in an all female society at all cost! Go! Go! Go! Go! Go single mothers! Go empowering of women! Women can do it all! They don't need men! Children don't need fathers!

Ahah that is the mantra in USA. Just turn on the TV and observe the man bashing day in and day out....Muslim countries on the other hand on TV they put shows over shows here women on the TV stations (wearing hijab) read articles and articles of importance of fathers...why? So people who question men's role and fatherhood role are actually taught in TV stations to avoid ..."America Family LifeStyle" because Islam put so much importance to family to that point that Allah promised any person who changes their last name (lineage) is guaranteed hellfire and ahadith talks about father's importance that if a man deny his father he is put under the same umbrella as "disbelieve". I honestly do not want the kuffar's lifestyle and look out of life. They can have their paradise of this world. I want the afterlife not this world.

Click on the view youtube link to view it on youtube. There is no music, pornography or showing female body parts. It is two men talking together with an interview! (I missed going to Muslim countries where in TVs you only view men and not having forced down your throat to see sexual bodies of women, and women without hijab and showing her body!) I am so happy I have no TV in my home in Canada. I HAVE NOT watched TV for over 15 years and I am the happiest man on Earth.
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Futuwwa
09-03-2018, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
Exactly my point, Qatar has the capability to be a First World Country but prefers to stay a Third World Country by not sharing the money collected from the oil business. 60 % of the population are poor and live in miserable conditions. That's the fact.
It's not how much money the king has, it's how much money every single person have.

http://www.whichcountryinfo.com/first-world-countries/
List of First World Countries
A highly developed country is referred to as a first world country. Here is a list of countries in 1st world with respect to their scores and GDP....

How does that answer anything I said in my last post? That's just restating the original assertion, as yet another just-so statement without substantiation, in slightly different words. Nor does that article you link to even pretend that its list and criteria is anything but their own personal opinion on what should count as developed.

I bet that in twenty years, Qatar will be housing and otherwise treating its migrant workers decently, but you and people who make such scoring systems still not recognize it as "fully developed" because the goalposts have moved and will include something else, like gay rights.

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Originally Posted by nosmarter
I'm not meaning to argue, Futuwwa, but this part I don't understand - and it's not the first time I've heard this. Between the Quran,the Hadiths, and the compilation of Sharia rulings in "The Reliance of the Traveller", it looked to me that there is no mistaking that killing people for adultery, blasphemy, apostasy, and even witchcraft is justified by scripture. As appalling as cutting the heads of of people on TV by ISIS was, their actions seem to draw from verses in the Quran directly if read literally. And let's not even get started with the captured sex slaves.

Are you suggesting that these things are not okayed by scripture, or are you saying that they should be interpreted without taking them quite so literally?
What you call "these things" is a grab bag of unrelated matters, why do you think one single answer applies to all? It depends from case to case. As I said, we are literalists. We don't believe a literalist position leads to the same conclusions that ISIS do, in most of what they do at least. So no, not okayed by scripture, for the most part. If you don't see how one could come to different conclusions from the scriptures than what ISIS does, then perhaps you should acquaint yourself with what classical or contemporary Islamic scholarship has to say on the matters. We can help, if you are willing to learn.

For that matter, Reliance of the Traveller has no kind of canonical standing whatsoever. It's just a work of legal-religious scholarship, from one of the four Sunni schools of jurisprudence.
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Abz2000
09-03-2018, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by Raymann
You really think that's a fair comparison ?
The common people in England who are in debt still enjoy a more than decent standard of living and are free to walk around.

That is a fair comparison in terms of the rich poor divide you made, the variable in the situation is that the people in england built the infrastructures from which they get an advantage on the loot that came from the citizens of the british colonial common-wealth countries who go as migrant workers to countries such as Qatar.
(the irony of the term commonwealth is stark - especially seeing that Bangladesh was meant to have become "independent" from it's "common-wealth" mother in 1971 - indicating the remnants of vested corporate interest including pre-post-colonial (?!) corporate ownership of prime production land scattered all over the place which are still "owned" by the descendents of the same corporate colonial land grabbers).

Originally Posted by Raymann
The migrants in Qatar are modern day slaves who have their passports taken when they arrive and are forced to work for very low wages and it would take years just to repay the airplane ticket and other expenses they were given to lure them into this evil trap.
What you appear/pretend to fail to realise is the fact that the Qatari government did not colonize and loot these people and does not hold them in perpetual interest debt shackles - it is the bankers at EC1 and EC2.
The Qatari government simply offers jobs to people which is more of a solution than a problem - in contrast to what the jewish bankers have been doing and do.

To blame the Qatari government for offering low paid jobs to people who are forced to migrate by conditions created and currently being perpetrated by corrupt jewish money changers with whom the Qatari government do not partner - is a lame attempt at shifting the liability for crime onto the innocent and a lame attempt at obfuscating the issue.
The lands from where the majority of these people come are very rich, in terms of flora and fauna, and diamonds and gold.

A sincere apology, reimbursement, and most importantly the cancellation of the demand for usury on loans that the people of those post colonial countries have no liability for is what is required from the money worshipping pirate invaders.





Point 1: No, Qatar doesn't qualify as a developed country (first world country)
In your criminal capitalist usurious money worshippimg sight, would i qualify as a developed person if i unlawfully invaded your land, raped your women, robbed your resources, ripped out your intestines, killed your children, and fed them to my pet animal, then left you in perpetual usurious debt whilst building a fine home with plump servants, well enforced household rules, and nice vehicles?

In Allah's sight it is the same rules for everyone under the rule of law regardless of geographical nationality.
Once a nation accepts the truth they become brethren in faith...unlike with racist nationalists and especially unlike jews who think that all non-jewish born people (goyim) are animals regardless of obedience to God and that they're created to be slaves for them.

Originally Posted by Raymann
Point 2: No, Qatar doesn't qualify as a perfect Muslim country either which is what we're looking for here.
They don't even implement full Islamic laws.
Well everyone should be implementing standard Islamic laws so that we all have a single standard in obedience to God, and i think the country in which you reside is worse in terms of implementation of Islamic laws and in this context is in a far worse off position in terms of being eligible for God's mercy.


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Originally Posted by Raymann
You don't want to provide names,
I told you to provide the names since you who unlawfully invaded them have more of a duty to provide them and your corrupt jewish false gods have also have been censoring research.
There's no logic in invading lands, censoring lawful information, then demanding that someone else provide the info, it's only answer can be: "taste the brunt of just retribution from God Who knows the unseen and the open".

Originally Posted by Raymann
fine, then I'll assume you're talking about Afghanistan and Iraq to begin with.
No point assuming based on conjecure when you have access to the information.


Originally Posted by Raymann
The reason I asked was because these countries apparently had the rare quality that they implemented full Islamic Laws.
That's a false assertion, the implementation of Islamic laws and it's study and comprehension is never complete even up until death and the day of judgement, these countries moved in that direction and implemented many of the standard fundamental rules, although Saddam's country which was still coming out of secularist manipulated baathism was far behind afghanistan which was still coming out of a war with a huge military force and was very new - less than a decade old, but the heart was in the right place and it was moving in the right direction.


Originally Posted by Raymann
We're looking for the perfect Muslim Country,
Perfection is only Allah's and we are mere humans, it is our intentions and efforts to do that which is right in God's sight in each and every circumstance which we are accountable for.
Even the Prophet :saws: did not leave behind a perfect Muslim society and no Prophet before him has either, our duty as humans is to strive hard in the correct direction in God's sight with sincerity and true justice.

Originally Posted by Raymann
I'd like to see how the perfect Muslim Country looks like.
You are either low on IQ or a complete troll.
Anybody who knows about how human beings develop from the cradle to the grave, and how societies are governed should be able to testify the same with me.


Originally Posted by Raymann
Was Afghanistan and the Taliban the perfect Muslim Country before the invasion ?
It was a country that was coming out of communism and into the obedience of God, and it's officials were apparently exerting a high amount of effort and were making huge personal sacrifices taken before as granted including the banning of opium despite the threat of losing international financial aid.


Originally Posted by Raymann
Is that what you would use as a model for all Muslim Countries around the world ?
I use history, the struggle of God's previous messengers in their various circumstances, and the Quran as a model.


Originally Posted by Raymann
Was Iraq the perfect Muslim Country before the invasion ?
You sound like a cheeky little urchin troll i'd love to slap...
...yet i'll answer briefly according to the best of my abilities for the benefit of readers even though i feel you'd be more happy to listen to broken records in a cell for a day with bread and water instead...

...iraq is a Muslim majority nation that was coming out of secular baathism, this was helped by the fact that Saddam Hussein realised the truth of Allah :swt: 's message in the Quran after my birth, he also knew about the mother of harlots verses in the bible, and he realised that the corrupt jewish money changing userers were evil and bloodthirsty and cruel enough to shock even him - especially when he realised they wanted to use him as a hooker for inciting perpetual war - all these facts had an effect on him and the persecution of the jew usurer shill anglo-american leadership gave him determination.

....

Originally Posted by Raymann
Were any of those other countries that you didn't provide the names the perfect Muslim Country ?
You tell me.
I'd be lying if i said anyone other than God was perfect just as i'd probably be lying if i said you were born to a perfectly pious mother.
However, i can say for sure that many leaders and citizens of some countries are better than those of many others - and that Islam is the standard way of life enjoined by God upon all of humankind - and that distance from obedience to God is what leads to subjugation to tyranny and unlawful expolitation.

The Prophet, his companions, and those who followed him later gave precious blood for quite a few centuries - not so that they could get rich and live lives of luxury, but so that they could, in obedience and submission to God, leave a high moral foundation and a God-fearing and universally just society behind them so that ANYBODY who comes after them can enjoy the fruits of justice and good living as long as they build themselves on it and don't let themselves decay.
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