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View Full Version : Reject Modern Culture

09-15-2018, 12:25 AM
copied from http://www.mikraite.org/Reject-Moder...re-tp1848.html

Most religions recognize a distinction between sins against people and sins against God. Sins against people are easy to understand, but what does it really mean to sin against God? To sin means to do something wrong, and presumably doing something wrong means that there is some harm somewhere. But where is the harm in sinning against God? God cannot be harmed, so the harm must be elsewhere. One may argue that sinning against God is sinning against oneself spiritually, but this is a circular argument. This argument is basically that sin is harmful because it is a sin. This isn't a very satisfying argument, and makes much less sense than the clear understanding of sins against people.

So I will offer a clear explanation of sins against God. Sins against God are things that are harmful to future generations of your society. In the case of sins against people, you know exactly which individuals were harmed. In the case of sins against God, the harm is broad and affects all of the people in society in the future. But in both cases, sins against people and sins against God, the harm is equally real. Both cause human suffering.

Let's consider the sin of worshipping other gods. What is the problem with this? These other gods don't exist, so by worshipping them you aren't risking that these gods take advantage of you somehow. The problem with other gods is that they represent a different set of values from the values of God. God's values, as recorded in the Old Testament and the Quran, are the values that produce the most successful societies. By promoting other gods, you would be promoting values that will lead to the fall of your society which will cause suffering in future generations. So the sin of worshipping other gods is a sin against future generations.

Now let's consider the example of Christianity. Christianity claims to have a trinity, but the "Holy Spirit" doesn't seem so much a god as a super angel. So in reality, Christianity has 2 gods, the Father who is the god of the Old Testament and the Quran, and the Son who is Jesus. The Quran repeatedly warns against considering a Jesus to be a god, but we can only understand the full reasoning of the Quran now that we have seen how Christianity has played out in modern culture. As long as Christianity truly respected both of their gods, they mostly did God's will and their societies thrived. But American Protestants in the 1800s began to claim that the New Testament replaces the Old Testament and so Christianity has no need to follow Old Testament values. In effect, this was choosing Jesus over God. And this was the beginning of the end of Western Culture. So the risk of worshipping other gods as partners with God is that this may easily lead to choosing other gods over God which will lead to bad values and the destruction of society as I described above.

How should one look at a secular culture like modern culture? It has no gods, so what is the problem with it? If one considers the reasoning behind the prohibition against worshipping other gods, one can find the answer. The reason against worshipping other gods is that they represent values harmful to society. In the past, before television, the internet, and formal schooling, the main way that a society taught its people its values was through the worship of its gods. But today, modern culture promotes its values through entertainment and schooling. Because modern culture has these tools, it doesn't need false gods. So by you watching modern television and sending your children to modern schools, you are effectively worshipping the "gods" of modern culture. The result is exactly the same as worshipping other gods. But which gods exactly? If you really look at the values of modern culture, these are the values of most degenerate idol-worshipping cultures in history. So every Muslim who watches television and sends their children to public school is guilty of shirk.

A Muslim from the Middle East may object by saying that the West is so advanced and has low crime, so how can it really be so terrible? The answer is again found in the reasoning. The sins against God affect future generations, not the current generation. A few generations ago, the West was still Christian and still had some respect for God and so it did not sin so much. The current wealth and justice in the West is a product of these past generations that respected God. But today the sins in the West are worse than the sins in the Muslim world, which means that in future generations the West will be worse off than the Muslim world. If you commit the shirk of participating in modern culture, your descendants will suffer the consequences.

As a non-muslim, the unseen and the hereafter are outside of my scope. But since this issue is important to Muslims, I want to mention this briefly. Modern Islam portrays this world and the hereafter as entirely separate realms and encourages Muslims to largely ignore this world and instead focus on the hereafter. But I find no basis for this view in the Quran where this world and the hereafter seem fundamentally linked as part of one whole. This Quranic view fits with my reasoning. If Islam is correct that God judges people's lives in this world and then rewards or punishes them appropriately in the hereafter, it would only make sense for the punishment to be proportional to the harm that the person caused in this world. And if this is done on the day of judgement, then one will be able to look back and see the harm that the person caused to future generations. God will be able to point this out in explaining the reasoning for the punishment of the sins against God which harmed future generations.

In summary, accepting modern culture is a violation of the First Commandment in the Old Testament, and is shirk in Islam, because it is effectively the same as worshipping other gods. To avoid this sin, do not watch television, do not send your children to modern schools, and avoid modern entertainment of all kinds. Be conscious that modern culture is no different from a culture of idol worshippers, and so it must be rejected.

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09-15-2018, 02:29 AM
I will address the title only - since what follows the title is based on it and there is a limit on the time and energy a person is realistically expected to expend on illogical fallacies.


Quite a confusing term - especially since dates would need to be clarified along with which practice was prevalent and is being supplanted and which is the current traditional trend.

relating to the present or recent times as opposed to the remote past.
a person who advocates or practises a departure from traditional styles or values.

Every time a prophet appeared he came with some things from before which never change, and others to suit the current stage.
Some accepted the truth after evaluation and deep thought, others contentiously argued that it was a move away from the traditional norms of their ancestors - whilst yet others contended that it was "tales of the ancients"

Ash-Shu'ara' 26:137

إِنْ هَٰذَآ إِلَّا خُلُقُ ٱلْأَوَّلِينَ

"This is no other than a customary device of the ancients,


Al-A'raf 7:28

وَإِذَا فَعَلُوا۟ فَٰحِشَةً قَالُوا۟ وَجَدْنَا عَلَيْهَآ ءَابَآءَنَا وَٱللَّهُ أَمَرَنَا بِهَاۗ قُلْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يَأْمُرُ بِٱلْفَحْشَآءِۖ أَتَقُولُونَ عَلَى ٱللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

When they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "Allah commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful: do ye say of Allah what ye know not?"

Al-A'raf 7:70

قَالُوٓا۟ أَجِئْتَنَا لِنَعْبُدَ ٱللَّهَ وَحْدَهُۥ وَنَذَرَ مَا كَانَ يَعْبُدُ ءَابَآؤُنَاۖ فَأْتِنَا بِمَا تَعِدُنَآ إِن كُنتَ مِنَ ٱلصَّٰدِقِينَ

They said: "Comest thou to us, that we may worship Allah alone, and give up the cult of our fathers? bring us what thou threatenest us with, if so be that thou tellest the truth!"

Al-A'raf 7:71

قَالَ قَدْ وَقَعَ عَلَيْكُم مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ رِجْسٌ وَغَضَبٌۖ أَتُجَٰدِلُونَنِى فِىٓ أَسْمَآءٍ سَمَّيْتُمُوهَآ أَنتُمْ وَءَابَآؤُكُم مَّا نَزَّلَ ٱللَّهُ بِهَا مِن سُلْطَٰنٍۚ فَٱنتَظِرُوٓا۟ إِنِّى مَعَكُم مِّنَ ٱلْمُنتَظِرِينَ

He said: "Punishment and wrath have already come upon you from your Lord: dispute ye with me over names which ye have devised - ye and your fathers,- without authority from Allah? then wait: I am amongst you, also waiting."

Al-A'raf 7:173

أَوْ تَقُولُوٓا۟ إِنَّمَآ أَشْرَكَ ءَابَآؤُنَا مِن قَبْلُ وَكُنَّا ذُرِّيَّةً مِّنۢ بَعْدِهِمْۖ أَفَتُهْلِكُنَا بِمَا فَعَلَ ٱلْمُبْطِلُونَ

Or lest ye should say: "Our fathers before us may have taken false gods, but we are (their) descendants after them: wilt Thou then destroy us because of the deeds of men who were futile?"

At-Taubah 9:23

يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ لَا تَتَّخِذُوٓا۟ ءَابَآءَكُمْ وَإِخْوَٰنَكُمْ أَوْلِيَآءَ إِنِ ٱسْتَحَبُّوا۟ ٱلْكُفْرَ عَلَى ٱلْإِيمَٰنِۚ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُم مِّنكُمْ فَأُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ هُمُ ٱلظَّٰلِمُونَ

O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

Yunus 10:78

قَالُوٓا۟ أَجِئْتَنَا لِتَلْفِتَنَا عَمَّا وَجَدْنَا عَلَيْهِ ءَابَآءَنَا وَتَكُونَ لَكُمَا ٱلْكِبْرِيَآءُ فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ وَمَا نَحْنُ لَكُمَا بِمُؤْمِنِينَ

They said: "Hast thou come to us to turn us away from the ways we found our fathers following,- in order that thou and thy brother may have greatness in the land? But not we shall believe in you!"

Hud 11:62

قَالُوا۟ يَٰصَٰلِحُ قَدْ كُنتَ فِينَا مَرْجُوًّا قَبْلَ هَٰذَآۖ أَتَنْهَىٰنَآ أَن نَّعْبُدَ مَا يَعْبُدُ ءَابَآؤُنَا وَإِنَّنَا لَفِى شَكٍّ مِّمَّا تَدْعُونَآ إِلَيْهِ مُرِيبٍ

They said: "O Salih! thou hast been of us! a centre of our hopes hitherto! dost thou (now) forbid us the worship of what our fathers worshipped? But we are really in suspicious (disquieting) doubt as to that to which thou invitest us."

Hud 11:109

فَلَا تَكُ فِى مِرْيَةٍ مِّمَّا يَعْبُدُ هَٰٓؤُلَآءِۚ مَا يَعْبُدُونَ إِلَّا كَمَا يَعْبُدُ ءَابَآؤُهُم مِّن قَبْلُۚ وَإِنَّا لَمُوَفُّوهُمْ نَصِيبَهُمْ غَيْرَ مَنقُوصٍ

Be not then in doubt as to what these men worship. They worship nothing but what their fathers worshipped before (them): but verily We shall pay them back (in full) their portion without (the least) abatement.

Yusuf 12:40

مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِهِۦٓ إِلَّآ أَسْمَآءً سَمَّيْتُمُوهَآ أَنتُمْ وَءَابَآؤُكُم مَّآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ بِهَا مِن سُلْطَٰنٍۚ إِنِ ٱلْحُكْمُ إِلَّا لِلَّهِۚ أَمَرَ أَلَّا تَعْبُدُوٓا۟ إِلَّآ إِيَّاهُۚ ذَٰلِكَ ٱلدِّينُ ٱلْقَيِّمُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ ٱلنَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

"If not Him, ye worship nothing but names which ye have named,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah hath sent down no authority: the command is for none but Allah: He hath commanded that ye worship none but Him: that is the right religion, but most men understand not...

An-Nahl 16:35

وَقَالَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَشْرَكُوا۟ لَوْ شَآءَ ٱللَّهُ مَا عَبَدْنَا مِن دُونِهِۦ مِن شَىْءٍ نَّحْنُ وَلَآ ءَابَآؤُنَا وَلَا حَرَّمْنَا مِن دُونِهِۦ مِن شَىْءٍۚ كَذَٰلِكَ فَعَلَ ٱلَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْۚ فَهَلْ عَلَى ٱلرُّسُلِ إِلَّا ٱلْبَلَٰغُ ٱلْمُبِينُ

The worshippers of false gods say: "If Allah had so willed, we should not have worshipped aught but Him - neither we nor our fathers,- nor should we have prescribed prohibitions other than His." So did those who went before them. But what is the mission of messengers but to preach the Clear Message?

Al-Anbiya 21:53

قَالُوا۟ وَجَدْنَآ ءَابَآءَنَا لَهَا عَٰبِدِينَ

They said, "We found our fathers worshipping them."

Al-Anbiya 21:54

قَالَ لَقَدْ كُنتُمْ أَنتُمْ وَءَابَآؤُكُمْ فِى ضَلَٰلٍ مُّبِينٍ

He said, "Indeed ye have been in manifest error - ye and your fathers."


Al-Mu'minun 23:83

لَقَدْ وُعِدْنَا نَحْنُ وَءَابَآؤُنَا هَٰذَا مِن قَبْلُ إِنْ هَٰذَآ إِلَّآ أَسَٰطِيرُ ٱلْأَوَّلِينَ

"Such things have been promised to us and to our fathers before! they are nothing but tales of the ancients!"


Ash-Shu'ara' 26:26

قَالَ رَبُّكُمْ وَرَبُّ ءَابَآئِكُمُ ٱلْأَوَّلِينَ

(Moses) said: "Your Lord and the Lord of your fathers from the beginning!"

Ash-Shu'ara' 26:74

قَالُوا۟ بَلْ وَجَدْنَآ ءَابَآءَنَا كَذَٰلِكَ يَفْعَلُونَ

They said: "Nay, but we found our fathers doing thus (what we do)."

Al-Qasas 28:36

فَلَمَّا جَآءَهُم مُّوسَىٰ بِـَٔايَٰتِنَا بَيِّنَٰتٍ قَالُوا۟ مَا هَٰذَآ إِلَّا سِحْرٌ مُّفْتَرًى وَمَا سَمِعْنَا بِهَٰذَا فِىٓ ءَابَآئِنَا ٱلْأَوَّلِينَ

When Moses came to them with Our clear signs, they said: "This is nothing but sorcery faked up: never did we head the like among our fathers of old!"

Saba' 34:43

وَإِذَا تُتْلَىٰ عَلَيْهِمْ ءَايَٰتُنَا بَيِّنَٰتٍ قَالُوا۟ مَا هَٰذَآ إِلَّا رَجُلٌ يُرِيدُ أَن يَصُدَّكُمْ عَمَّا كَانَ يَعْبُدُ ءَابَآؤُكُمْ وَقَالُوا۟ مَا هَٰذَآ إِلَّآ إِفْكٌ مُّفْتَرًىۚ وَقَالَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ لِلْحَقِّ لَمَّا جَآءَهُمْ إِنْ هَٰذَآ إِلَّا سِحْرٌ مُّبِينٌ

When Our Clear Signs are rehearsed to them, they say, "This is only a man who wishes to hinder you from the (worship) which your fathers practised." And they say, "This is only a falsehood invented!" and the Unbelievers say of the Truth when it comes to them, "This is nothing but evident magic!"


Az-Zukhruf 43:22

بَلْ قَالُوٓا۟ إِنَّا وَجَدْنَآ ءَابَآءَنَا عَلَىٰٓ أُمَّةٍ وَإِنَّا عَلَىٰٓ ءَاثَٰرِهِم مُّهْتَدُونَ

Nay! they say: "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we do guide ourselves by their footsteps."

Az-Zukhruf 43:23

وَكَذَٰلِكَ مَآ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ فِى قَرْيَةٍ مِّن نَّذِيرٍ إِلَّا قَالَ مُتْرَفُوهَآ إِنَّا وَجَدْنَآ ءَابَآءَنَا عَلَىٰٓ أُمَّةٍ وَإِنَّا عَلَىٰٓ ءَاثَٰرِهِم مُّقْتَدُونَ

Just in the same way, whenever We sent a Warner before thee to any people, the wealthy ones among them said: "We found our fathers following a certain religion, and we will certainly follow in their footsteps."

Az-Zukhruf 43:24

قَٰلَ أَوَلَوْ جِئْتُكُم بِأَهْدَىٰ مِمَّا وَجَدتُّمْ عَلَيْهِ ءَابَآءَكُمْۖ قَالُوٓا۟ إِنَّا بِمَآ أُرْسِلْتُم بِهِۦ كَٰفِرُونَ

He said: "What! Even if I brought you better guidance than that which ye found your fathers following?" They said: "For us, we deny that ye (prophets) are sent (on a mission at all)."


Al-Mujadila 58:22

لَّا تَجِدُ قَوْمًا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلْيَوْمِ ٱلْءَاخِرِ يُوَآدُّونَ مَنْ حَآدَّ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥ وَلَوْ كَانُوٓا۟ ءَابَآءَهُمْ أَوْ أَبْنَآءَهُمْ أَوْ إِخْوَٰنَهُمْ أَوْ عَشِيرَتَهُمْۚ أُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ كَتَبَ فِى قُلُوبِهِمُ ٱلْإِيمَٰنَ وَأَيَّدَهُم بِرُوحٍ مِّنْهُۖ وَيُدْخِلُهُمْ جَنَّٰتٍ تَجْرِى مِن تَحْتِهَا ٱلْأَنْهَٰرُ خَٰلِدِينَ فِيهَاۚ رَضِىَ ٱللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ وَرَضُوا۟ عَنْهُۚ أُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ حِزْبُ ٱللَّهِۚ أَلَآ إِنَّ حِزْبَ ٱللَّهِ هُمُ ٱلْمُفْلِحُونَ

Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity.

09-15-2018, 02:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

Quite a confusing term - especially since dates would need to be clarified along with which practice was prevalent and is being supplanted and which is the current traditional trend.
I am referring to Western culture in its current form. I don't need to enumerate practices since the whole thing is rotten to the core.

09-15-2018, 02:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt
I am referring to Western culture in its current form. I don't need to enumerate practices since the whole thing is rotten to the core.
I am exchausted from Western culture and world....and for anyone here who lives in West says..well if you hate it then leave...

GUESS WHAT...that is my plan. I am tired...TIRED..OF LIVING in this Western world...hate it....and I do not care how much of jannah it may seem to everyone....I am planning for real to move to Muslim country (especially Turkey...that is my focus).....and never want to ever step foot in Western world ever again...

I am done with Canada.

I am done with America.

I am done with Western world.

I have no intention of moving to Australia.

I hate that my Muslim brothers and sisters are suffering and struggling in their country and me pampered in Western world..an illusion of deception....:facepalm::facepalm:imsadimsadimsad:r aging::raging::raging::raging::raging: NO! I WANT TO LIVE IN ISLAMIC WORLD :raging::raging::raging::raging::raging: ...you guys don't understand...my eyes literally tearing as I am writing this...I want ....I am literally crying...I want to live in Muslim world......:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry: I...:cry: :cry:

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09-15-2018, 03:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by xboxisdead
I am exchausted from Western culture and world....and for anyone here who lives in West says..well if you hate it then leave...
Western culture is rotten and degenerate, but it has the advantage of not yet being oppressive. This means that sane religions still have the option to organize themselves according to their own values. In America, traditional Anabaptists and Orthodox Jews do this. For whatever reason, Muslims seem less effective at doing this. I personally think it makes more sense for Muslims to figure out how to organize themselves in the West than it does to deal with an oppressive government outside the West.

09-15-2018, 03:06 AM
I want to be with my Muslim brothers and sisters ....I want to HEAR ATHAN!! I WANT TO HEAR ATHAAAN!:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry: I want to get married in Muslim country and raise a family even IF I LIVE IN THE STREET :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

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